Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Diddy’s Apology, Davis’ Side, and the Lack of Urgency to Help Black America With Rep. Jamaal Bowman

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay start the podcast with a discussion about their thoughts behind the emergency podcast and the lessons they learned from it (00:29) before giving their reactions to the apology posted by Diddy (28:09). Then, they are joined by New York Representative Jamaal Bowman to talk about his campaign and his frustrations with Congress (50:19). After, Glen “Big Baby” Davis joins to talk about his side of the story regarding his sentencing (1:25:29). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Rep. Jamaal Bowman and Glen Davis Producer: Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Hower Learning. I'm Van Lathen Jr. Oh, no yo, yo, yo. No, yo, yo, yo, you're already setting the tone. I'm nervous. Well, I'm Rachel and Lindsay. All right, let's get to it. So, first thing I want to say off the back

is something that my father always told me. Father always told me, if you're a coward anywhere, you're a coward everywhere. There's no such thing as being brave one place and not being brave in another. The most important thing that you should have consistency with is bravery. It's the most important thing because being brave and attacking things with a clear head and a conscience of character that defines you is the way to define your character. It's the way that you articulate how you show up in the world.

And that's very important. So obviously, you guys know that it was as mutual as weekend for me. Can imagine how it was for actual victims that had to relive their trauma as the most popular video on the internet was of Sean Combs brutally attacking Cassie. but for two different reasons, it was a gut check moment for me. First, as we were doing the podcast, I'm not going to relitigate this entire thing. My past actions as an advocate and an ally to women were called into question.

Now, I'll say this. I've clearly articulated in a response. to that assertion, how I felt about it, and what happened at the time. I don't think that it was fairness. I don't think it was fair. That doesn't mean it was wrong. Fair or unfair doesn't denote right or wrong. Sure.

It doesn't. Also, at the same time, here on higher learning, we did an emergency podcast response to the Diddy Video. And I'll be the first to say, we then deleted that video. And I'll be the first to say that it was me at my feckless and feeblest worst. So, why? Because there's a reality that both situations articulate. Let's go back to the first one first.

You take an interview, you don't take an interview. As far as the second part of it where I called someone to alert them, that I was going to be doing a different interview. That's pretty much a professional courtesy. I did that 15 times a day at TMZ, knowing more about the situation now. I shouldn't have done that. But at that time,

there was no part of me that had any ill intent or in any way was looking to shield anyone from what might have been coming. I did that a lot of times for ladies that I knew. It's like, hey, we got your ex out. They said this and this and that. Boom, boom, boom. Or even before, there's a shot set up.

Very prominent lady. Like, we had a shot set up with her ex-husband. They were going through her strange husband. They were going through a divorce. I called her. I was like, hey, just let you know. Later on, we're going to get a shot of him. So this is the deal.

I don't want you to know me and think, hey, this went on the site without Van even giving me a heads up. In a situation that was as dire as that was, there is a fair criticism based upon the people that were involved in it that I should have known what was safe and what wasn't safe to do. And I accept that criticism. But the first part of it to me is a little bit more troubling as far as I'm concerned. So let's make it a different scenario real quick. And just for people who don't know, I was offered an interview with a woman in 2019 who said that she had allegations against Puff.

I declined the interview. It's not the type of interview I do, not really. They're never really done that. I probably would have been hampered from doing it anyway with just the nature of the interview. But forget all about that. Forget all about that. I'll explain all that in the response.

The reality is, why wasn't there a more intense reaction for me? Why wasn't the seriousness of that met with an intense interrogation of my relationship with said person and of a curiosity about the validity of the claim? Like why? So I had to think about that. I had to think about that. And I also have to think about the response and why there is

sometimes in situations like this, if I'm being honest with myself, an attempt for me to access the humanity of an abuser of someone who is wrong someone. Why is it a part of who I am to make sure that I either protect the legacy or the perception of someone that's accused of either harassing an undeserving young woman online or of viciously abusing and attacking someone. And so this is what I spent the last couple of days thinking about.

I think about value. And I know that I value women. I know that I do. The question is, and the question that we should all be asking ourselves at this time, but it's not about everybody right now, it's about me, is whether or not I value women as much as I value men. Okay.

The value of men and how valuable men in society are undergirds the systems of abuse and exploitation that women deal with. Men and what they build and who they are and what they become are oftentimes seen as something that we can't simply throw away or properly chastise because in doing so, we're losing too much. We're losing titans. We're losing creators, scientists. What does it mean for their future? What does it mean for their career? What does it mean for, you know, what they've accomplished and who they are?

And you oftentimes attach who they are with what they're accomplished in the system that they built. And you go, well, let's make sure we provide them a pathway to get better or move on. Or we try to understand the context and what's something happened. And when you do that, you create victims. You create victims because you empower an narrative. to exist in perpetuity that minimizes women, minimizes women in society, minimizes their ability to speak and be heard,

and minimizes the consequences for bad actors. I'm a part of that. I'm complicit in that. And it didn't just start in 2019. It's throughout the DNA of this podcast when I speak. it's in me. There are lots of reasons for it. Some of them are easy to understand.

I was raised around bad acting men and I watched all types of people, including women, making excuses for those guys. I also knew those men. And in knowing them, I felt like I knew the real them. I felt like I knew the part of them that was beautiful and gentle. And so I'm always trying to see that in people, but particularly sometimes with guys.

This doesn't have very much to do with proximity to celebrity or anything like that. I don't know my feel like that, but the way I was reared at TMZ is every single relationship was currency. So that anything that I would do to not burn a relationship, it wasn't necessarily to build it, but not to burn one, it was just important. Something happens at the office. Like, who can get this person on the phone? Well, if you can get that person on the phone, gold star for you.

So I think a lot of times I look at what I have to offer here as being an operator in this town and in this injury. is as much about how I'm perceived and the connection that I have to people as it is about my talent. And the question becomes, what are you willing to sacrifice for that? And it can't be the women that you love and share your community with. And when I say the women that I love, I'm not talking about the women that I know. I'm talking about whether or not you love and value women and whether or not you think that their safety is important to, to prioritize. It's not about your mother, it's not about your sister.

It's not about your podcast co-host or your girl or anyone. It's about the woman that you don't know in that situation. I thought about the fact that if someone would have called me up, be it a manager of someone looking for an interview or anyone else and said that Puff at that point was molesting young girls what my response would have been. Hey, just to let you know, this guy's doing this and I have two people who want to come on your show and talk about it. Now, there's a chance I still wouldn't have taken that interview because once again, those types of

accusations without proof on that type of platform almost certainly lead to, they could lead to some type of litigiousness that I might have not been able to do, right? But what I've thought about protecting children, would I have thought about my proximity to someone who would be capable or, like, accused of that? what I've wanted to know the truth before I was around somebody like that what I wanted to know if there was any way to help the children

the answer is yes and anybody anybody that would be told something like that would probably react the same unless they had completely no soul the question I would ask of myself and of everyone else is why don't we feel that way

when it comes to issues of abuse against women Why isn't that disqualifying some of us? I'm not going to speak for every man that's listening to this podcast because some of the sharpest criticism that I've gotten and some of the most holistic and best criticism that I've gotten is from men who expect me to be better, expect me to do better. Why don't we feel that way?

What is it about the abuse of a woman that is societally palatable? Why? And there were many different things that came up during the weekend. I uncharacteristically moved away from social media, which was very hard for me. I love the dooms crow. Thank you. Things got pretty intense. And I just looked at stuff.

I just looked at stuff. I'm going to speak frankly and plainly right here. And everything that I looked at this week, weekend for some reason, had some reason had something to do with abuse. And I'm going to tell you what I mean by that, and I'm going to say some names, and I hope that everyone understands how important I feel my partner's is.

Joe Rogan does an interview with Terrence Howard. And I'm like, wow, Terence Howard's been accused of domestic violence. I'm scrolling through Instagram. I see a picture of Dr. Dr. Dre has been accused many different times of domestic violence. The fight comes on Saturday. Watch the fight.

Everybody else is talking about the fight. We're watching the fight boxing. Usik versus Tyson Fury. And so there's boxing all over my timeline. And Floyd Mayweather Jr. comes up. And I'm watching Florida.

I'm like, oh, man, look how crazy Florida is. Floyd is amazing. Like, blah, blah, blah. Because boxing videos are popping up. You know, Floyd's going back and forth with Javanta Davis and all that stuff. Javanta Davis. And I'm like, Floyd Mayweather has been accused

and was jailed for domestic violence. I started looking it up. He was accused a couple of different times. Accused up and jailed for domestic violence. Now, I can't speak on the work that anybody is done personally, I can't speak on where somebody is. I don't know.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. If any one of those men right there would have called that phone right there last Wednesday to do an interview on this podcast, I would have hit a backflip trying to accommodate them and get them on. Any one of them.

The point isn't that you can't move on from something. The point is that doing it doesn't affect you in any way. It doesn't affect your legacy, at least from where I'm sitting, in any way. Another thing happened this weekend. I was watching Pretty Woman. Okay. It's a feel-good movie for me when I'm feeling down. Is it?

Yeah, I love the movie. That was at the Wilshire this weekend. Yeah, who doesn't love Pretty Woman? And again, it just kind of jumps in my head, right? So when you watch Pretty Woman, I'm not going to spoil the movie for you guys who have been waiting in the last 35 years to see it for whatever reason. But when you watch the movie, there's a clear bad guy in it. And the bad guy is Jason Alexander from Seinfeld. Richard Gears' character is accepting of Julia Roberts' character.

He doesn't judge her. He doesn't look at her in any way. Jason Alexander treats her like she's lower than him. He treats her like she's scum, right? He's very cynical. But the thing that solidifies the fact that he is the villain of the movie is that he hits her.

He hits her. I forgot about that. In a lot of the movies that you would watch, cultural expressions that you would see, the men who hit women are, clearly looked at as the villains of the movie. And that got me to thinking. Our villains hit women in movies

and our heroes do it in real life. And they don't stop becoming heroes because they do. Right. There is a long list of people, men and women, who are ready to accept flimsy, half-hearted apologies that come with no work or action. And there are a lot of people

like myself, who in the past have been willing to be ambiguous enough about what they stand for and who they are, that they actually, in a subconscious way, encouraged that type of activity. The moment that we're in right now, not just because of Puff and Cassie, not just because of other situations like this that we've discussed, demands an intellectual and moral clarity that I have failed this audience of this podcast and people, period, of delivering. I've never in any way covered up anybody's abuse.

I've never in any way made sure that I have, anything that anyone had been through. I've never once done that. But what I have done is not properly articulate who I am and what I believe. And I've let

some of the things that exist inside of me take charge over who it is that I want to be. I don't want to go back to any situations right now with any people that I've already addressed on the podcast, but it's clear to me that in a situation where someone online to lip collie online

is harassing a young woman, that your primary focus is the safety of the young woman. I failed her multiple times. I apologize. I'll be better. in the situation with Gina, who was the woman that was

accusing Puff of domestic violence at that time, even if I wasn't going to take the interview in order to be who I want to be in the world and show up the way I want to show up in the world, I needed to take that more seriously. I needed to be more of an ally and an advocate. And I need to make sure, that there is a clear line

about what I will and what I will not accept. We talk about valuing men, valuing them, overvaluing them. It's not that we shouldn't value the men in our society. It's not that men aren't important. They're very important. My father was very important. And because I am my father's son

is the reason why I accept full accountability for how cowardly I've been in certain situations. and about the, um, the, misogyny and patriarchy that I haven't dealt with and addressed in my own life, right? Because my dad, as much of a misogynist and a page,

the slave to patriarchy as he was, uh, didn't let you get away with anything. And my mother, who I talk about significantly less than I do, my father, maybe it's the grief, was someone who, not only experienced some of the things that we're talking about,

once again, not centering the women closest to me, but I'm just saying, but had an understanding of how she wanted the world to work, and oftentimes enough, I don't express that on the podcast as well. Because I want to be my father's son. I want to be one of the latent men. I'm chasing his version of manhood.

I'm chasing inclusion into that pantheon of men. Like I'm chasing it. I want it so bad. right? I want to be able to, you know, be granted, tough, all of that. And some of that comes with being inside of a boys club. And when you're inside of the boys club, you got to follow boys club rules. The only club I want to be inside of, in actuality, is one that promotes the safety and the expression of everyone. But particularly, really black one.

Because in conversations with the women that I know, what they endure and what they go through, and where they're left, they shouldn't have to lead such remarkable lives. It should be less remarkable. Should have to overcome less. We should have less stories of triumph.

We should have more just conversations about why you always got to escape somebody why you always got to leave something behind why you always got to overcome something last thing I'll say value of men talk about it sometimes we dig in the dirt for it sometimes we dig in the dirt for it

there's hey bro these guys covered with all of this stuff this shit and this dirt we go out of there to get to the center of it to explain you know and you can't do that without getting some of that dirt and shit on you very true

and that's not who I am and that's not who I'm going to be. So to the audience that listened to me, center of myself and my experience on the hills of that video, which I was disgusted by, to the audience that listened to me talk about the history of Cassie's abuser and not focus as much on what she must be going through and what other women who have to endure that must be going through. I apologize, but my apology in words is not nearly as important as the realization that you expect more of me because you believe in me.

And I expect more of myself because I believe in you. We have a show that is big today. It's kind of an important show. my cousin Glenn Davis is on the show to talk about his case Jamal Bowman is on the show to discuss his congressional challenge

in New York before we get to any of that stuff I want to know what you think Would you like an apology rating? Yes 9 out of 10 9 what could I've done to get a 10 Something you said at the end about

saying it is not enough You can act on it I appreciate the acknowledgement. But, like, you know, like you couldn't be perfect. I don't want you to be perfect. It was a great. It was a great apology. There's really not much room for me to say.

I mean, I appreciate you addressing it, not running away from it, taking the criticism, you know, advice, whatever it is that you were receiving from different people as they, you know, were approaching you about your response, your initial response to the situation. I appreciate you not being defensive and taking it in. and really taking the time to reflect on why you've responded that way, how you can be better, maybe it touched somebody else, another man that's listening about why they respond or why is a society men do. You know, as you were talking about value and, you know, like, why do we respond to grown women this way in children?

It's like, because women have historically not been valued in the same way, you know, with children, they're innocent and everyone can agree on that. Look at the way we talk about the war happening. You know, it's about the children. More than it is about the women that are dying as well. That's included, but everyone can agree on children. But for some reason, it becomes a little bit shaky when you start saying just women. It's just because historically we haven't been valued in that way. And it's a shame that here we are in 2024, still having these arguments.

But anyways, not even to get into all that. I don't want to digress. I just want to focus on what you said, which was great. And as a woman, I appreciate that. And I look forward to seeing you applying it. Yes. And the audience is going to hold you accountable too. It definitely will.

They certainly will. I do want to shout out all the people that called and checked up on me. Some people that were very unexpected, because I was going through it, I would start to spiral. Yeah, I know we just spiral when you accuse other people of not checking on you. Rachel. I did. I didn't want to overwhelm you.

So I go to your better half. It's like, good to hear from you, Rachel. But there's nothing that happened and no piece of criticism that was levied that won't make me a better person and won't remind me who I am and who I want to be. I haven't said all of that, like, subscribe and share the podcast. And there's only one topic. we are going to do before we get into our two interviews for today, which were nice and robust and went kind of long. And that is Diddy's apology? And that's the big deal of the day.

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Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not. not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at vandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Rachel, take it away. Diddy apologized over the weekend, right?

We saw the video come out Friday. Van already touched on how we discussed it. But then within 24 hours of it, we got a video from Diddy, which I myself wasn't expecting. And in the video, Diddy's there. It's just him. He's talking to the camera. He sits and he does what he calls an apology, and that's how I'm going to rephrase it, over the video that came out and the assault that we saw. Let's just toss to the audio. It's so difficult to reflect on the darkest times in your life. Sometimes you got to do that. I was fucked up. I mean, I hit rock bottom, but I make no excuses. My behavior on that video is, inexcusable. I take full responsibility for my actions in that video. I'm disgusted. I was disgusted

then when I did it. I'm disgusted now. I went and I sought out professional help. Now to go into therapy and going to rehab. Had to ask God for his mercy and grace. I'm so sorry, but I'm committed to be a better man each and every day. I'm not asking for forgiveness. I'm truly sorry. When I watched that video, I literally said out loud, no. That was literally my response. A lot of people have watched it at this point. A lot of people have had their opinions. But the glaring thing that sticks out from that video is that, once again,

Diddy Sinners himself? Not one mention of Cassie. Not one mention of victims of domestic violence. It all was about, I didn't even count how many times he said I or me. It was all about himself, what he has allegedly done. He says he doesn't ask for forgiveness. Great, I'm not giving that to you. It's not even my place to, right?

I have not been a victim of domestic violence. I am not Cassie. It's not even my place. But to watch him sit there and really have no regard for the person who suffered at his hands was pretty astonishing. I've never been with somebody who was a narcissist. I don't know. People use that term a lot.

I don't know if I have. I might have had somebody who's had narcissistic behaviors, but never somebody I would say is a full-on narcissist. But when I watched it, I was really taken aback at the audacity of Diddy in this video. And for those people who might say, and there's something interesting that he did, and maybe go back and look at the lawsuit. When he talks about that incident that happened in March 2016, he makes it seem like that was the darkest time.

And it may happen. I'm not here to argue with him over that. He says that was the darkest time. And he makes it seem as if from that point on he did better. He got treatment. He sought counseling. He did whatever he needed to do to better himself. So he was no longer that person.

and alludes to that he never did anything remotely close to that again. That was rock bottom. From there, he went up. I thought, I know Cassie stayed with him for a couple of years after that, and I wonder if in her lawsuit she actually alleged things that happen after March 2016. And she does. And I think that at this point, we can all agree. And something you did say in our emergency podcast that I do think is true is that,

depending on how people respond to this, it shows you the type of person you are. I think we can all agree. I hope we can all agree that you need to believe Cassie in every single thing that she has said. And I don't know how if after you've seen that video, you can't subscribe to that. But in her lawsuit, she talks about an incident that happened in 2018,

about him coming into her house, about him throwing things at her, and then another woman was involved as well who witnessed it. She talks about a physical assault, a sexual assault, that she suffered. at the hands of Diddy in 2018 as well. So for anyone who wants to make an excuse or say he's trying to, and he, I don't know if he is or not, I don't care. For anyone to say, like, you need to forgive him and he did, and, you know, he fixed himself after this.

No, he did not. Because there are multiple incidents that are listed in this lawsuit, and I'm sure that doesn't even capture the emotional, mental, and physical trauma that you. she did suffer there after March 2016. So, like, for me, I am shocked that Diddy did do this apology. I don't know who advised him to do this. I didn't need to see it. Again, it wasn't for me. I don't think it was for anybody but Diddy.

And that's just how I'm going to leave it there. He did this for himself. So the apology was a lie. I don't believe anything that was said in the apology. For that video to have come out, and for there, I'm not breaking any news here. For there to have been,

for there to have been no mention of Cassie, no mention of the scarring that that put on Cassie that will never quite heal. For that to have been, there's been no mention of how she was feeling,

the point that they got to, but there to have been no mention of the attempts to hide the video, for there to have been no mention of any of the work that was done. For there to have been no plan of action from someone who has that type of access to resources or someone who has that type of platform

to not say, not only am I sorry, but this is, what I'm going to do to make sure that women in this situation have some sort of outlet. I know how wrong I've been, so I want to be a part of fixing this situation. And just to let you know, saying that now would even be kind of hollow. Because if you had realized what your role as an abuser, what that meant than I would have expected

there had have been some type some type of initiative plan, empowering of women to have happened after that at some point I would have expected look you know

the question is the same question the question is what are you going to do like that's the question the question you ask the question you ask the question I asked myself, the question anyone asks is, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And particularly if you are the monster that he is,

like, what are you going to do? Everything that he talked about was things that he did for himself. I got help. For myself. It's one of the darkest times of the world. I'm apologizing to you. I'm apologizing to the people on the other end of this camera, the people that make me who I am,

the people that exalt me as a cultural king, the people that look at me like that. I'm sorry that you had to see this. I'm sorry that you saw the real me. I've never seen anything quite like it in terms of the wrong thing to do or say, the wrong way to look at it. He brutally assaulted her.

And there's something else that I think is interesting about this. I don't want to conjecture too much. But I think it's interesting that the tape still exists. Now, if I was to think about maybe how this tape was procured, I've heard different things.

We talked about this a little bit on the emergency podcast, but the tape was at CNN, so that means the video wasn't paid for. Which means the video came from some journalistic endeavor, right? Or from someone that wanted people to see it. I've heard a couple of different things.

One thing that I've heard is that this tape was procured in the raid on Diddy's home. And as part of the raid on his home, the feds got that. And perhaps the feds or someone from around there gave it to CNN because they were being taunted by Puff's son or whatever. any way you slice it, if you would have paid X amount of dollars to have this piece of video suppressed,

the question of why it wasn't destroyed is like a splinter in my brain. And there's a part of me that thinks it wasn't destroyed because somebody liked seeing it? Oh, I wasn't thinking that. If it's in, if it was, in fact, in your possession, or if you had it, why wouldn't you get rid of it?

Well, you're assuming it came from him. No, I mean... Because it could have been the employee who saw it who always kept it. That's unlikely. And I'll tell you why, because, well, I don't know. It could have been the employee that always... Could have been somebody who works for him, who hated him, who kept it out. Like, there's so many things that could have been.

Okay, so let me tell you about that. So... Play this out a little bit. The employee that had it, right? The employee that's always had that tape. If that's the case, why would that employee who has held onto this tape for this entire time, right? Because it's the employee of the hotel or whatever, right?

Why would that employee not get paid for that piece of video, which is ridiculously valuable now? It might not matter to them. I don't know. We're so spec- Russ? I get it. We're speculating.

And what I'm saying is that when you're dealing with someone that's as ghastly as he is, the questions that you have to ask after a while become ghastly themselves. This apology was the tip

of my the apology and the absolute ineffectiveness of it. Just, it sparked my curiosity in a way that did not stop my brain from spinning. I get that.

From anyone that has been around in any type of public situation, public relations situation that has worked where I've worked, you would have to be fucking insane to put what he put on the internet. With the amount of allegations in Cassie's lawsuit,

that that tape corroborates, with the amount of other whispers about him and his past that have persisted for the last 20-some-odd years, with all of the things that you would, the level of narcissism and the level of detachment from reality that you would have to do, I think this to me, the video itself is one of the worst things I've ever seen.

This deepens, to me, to me, deepens, deepens to a almost unfathomable death. Yeah, he's diabolical. He's absolutely diabolical. And it's, I understand the,

curiosity of like, you know, I think we all asked those questions. How, you know, like, how did this, we talked about on the emergency pod, like, how did TMZ not get this? Or how long, how does CNN get it? How long have they had this? You know, we know he paid for it to go away,

but why was it kept? All of that. And then as soon as I start thinking about all that, I'm like, I don't care. What I care is that we've seen it. What I care is that it's out. What I mean, obviously discuss this on the emergency pot. I hate that people are having to relive their trauma.

I hate what Cassie's having to go to through. I hate this lives out there for her daughters to one day. See, I hate that other victims of domestic violence are triggered. As we talk about it, they listen to it, they watch this. I hate all of that. But at the same time, I could care less about how the video came to fruition.

I'm glad that people are seeing how diabolical this man is. Yeah. Definitely, I think really more than anything, number one, I think there's, I mean, there's no, you could apologize every single day for the rest of time. There's no coming back. There's, there's too much stuff out there. was already done. Like the statement he put out, everything against me is not true. Everything

that has been alleged is not true. The truth will come out. And then it's like, yeah, it did. So now what? Yeah, he asked God for the truth to come out and God said, okay. And it did. Like he literally said, hey, I want to, I know the truth will come out and God was like, all cool, we'll put the truth out. Like all of this though, all of that. It's all done to stop yourself from taking responsibility for the harm that you've caused. There's no way that you could watch that video and think that's the only time that happened. Of course. There's just, there's, there's, there's no way.

I don't think he thinks he harmed her. What you mean? I mean, I think when I see somebody do something to someone like that, I don't think they think they did anything wrong. That's why they continue to do it. I mean, obviously there's deeper issues there, but I also think that in some way he blames her. And I think that just shows to goes towards him being a narcissist.

And this is not his fault. That's how I think he thinks. That was the emptiest apology I've ever seen. I felt nothing. He said nothing. I don't even want to hear it. I hope Diddy just goes away. And I don't mean that I'm not wishing death on anybody.

I'm just saying like we don't need to hear from him anymore. Just be gone. Be gone. Can we censor Cassie? Can we sit to other people? I just want him gone. What do you feel like this weekend was like for her? Oh, I hope she detached.

I hope that she surrounded herself with people who have loved her, who have been loving her, who have been supporting her, who have uplifted her. I hope she tuned out to all the talk, the opinions, everything. I just hope she protected herself, you know? It's what I said in the emergency pot. I can't even imagine what it was like. And I wonder if some of it was, I think vindicated is too soft of a word, but just maybe she could breathe a little bit because there were still people who questioned her when she did tell her truth. Still people who doubted her. And maybe for the first time, in a long time,

or if ever, she just breathes a sigh of relief. I hope she is able to move forward and I hope she gets and achieves every single thing that she wants in this life, free and detached from that monster. She already seems to be on that path that she seems to have found a stable, supportive partner, has two beautiful children,

and I hope that she continues in that way. I can't even begin to think what this weekend and moving forward is like for her because it's not going to stop this weekend. The conversation around believing women and who believed Cassie and who didn't believe Cassie and how we show up for women when allegations are made or when victims tell their story. That, like, how do we, what we do as the new cycle changes from this, and it will at some point. And hopefully for Cassie, it changes because her new life seems to be one that she's really, really, really experiencing bliss.

And she seems to have a great, great, great support system around her right now in terms of her husband. He has been very active talking about this. But moving forward, and I did have some conversations this weekend about how we build structures that make people feel okay about talking about stuff like this when they know that it's going on. And about how we, because I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about other people who might be being criticized for not being the one person that stands up and goes and talks about this. We should have conversations about why you don't. We also should have conversations about how safe we make it for people to be truthful.

Oh, yeah. We should have conversations about whether or not it's the reason why the whistleblower legislation exists is because if it didn't exist, then every single whistleblower that says, I'm working at this company and I saw that would get their ass kicked and then there would be no more whistleblowers.

There would be no one that was brave enough to come forward and talk about corporate malfeasance or bad actions by a corporation or how they were taking advantage of people. There would be none of that, right? So you have to protect it. If you want truth,

You have to make truth possible. You have to prioritize truth. And so there has to be a discussion while everybody's pointing fingers at everybody else about what we're doing to be united together to make sure that people have the opportunity and know that they have the backup

and the structures available to them to be able to say things and talk about things and tell and talk about this. And even that, knowing that people are united and believing people and providing them platforms

and talking about it, which is part of like what are my dedication to that will be. Even that will make it easier to root out it. It might curb some bad behavior. But this

this story and what it means will continue to evolve. Because I do not believe that Diddy will be free. I think that they will get him. I think the feds arrested his alleged drug mule and he copped a plea deal. I don't think they're going to stop until they get him now. Yeah.

Yeah, it's too much around it. Yeah. So. And maybe this will change the conversation. Maybe this will change the way that we'll change the way that we're going to. we think. Maybe this will be a thing where, you know, sadly, there's going to be another time where someone publicly, you know, accuses someone of some type of assault. And maybe the reference will be. Remember Cassie. I hope. I hope it will be. I hope it will be. I'll be up to the task.

and I hope that everybody else sinners women in their lives and I hope that I can too not just when they're victims but the ease of access into life and all of that because it's all part of this it's just

we're at a time right now like I said where particularly particularly there's a group of people that just won't accept the status quo and the abuse that's been dished out. It's not worth no movies, no podcasts,

it's not worth songs, it's not worth any of that. It's not worth any of it for someone to have to live like that in the one life that they get. All right. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that happened, a golfer,

all of that, the fam you, just different stuff. But we're so long today. You guys are getting, like, such a pot. We're going right now to Jamal Bowman. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green.

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Okay, higher learning audience, we are delighted to have one of these strongest voices in Congress joining us right now. Representing the 16th district out of New York, we have Representative Jamal Bowman joining us today on Higher Learning. Representative Bowman, how are you doing, brother? I'm good, I'm good, man. Thanks for having me. Good to be with you all. Now, you're in a race right now. You're being primaried by a fellow Democrat.

Before we get into the ins and outs of that, talk about your district in New York and some of the issues there that you feel like resonate nationwide because we are not in New York. But talk about some of the things that you're dealing with there that you feel like Americans from the Shining Sea can identify with. No, absolutely.

So I represent New York's 16th congressional district, so that covers the Northeast Bronx and southern Westchester County, which includes Mount Vernon, Yonkers, New Rochelle, Greenberg, Portchester White Plains, the River towns, Larchmont-Mamarinik, and everything in between. It's a district that kind of captures

what America is in terms of the diversity in our country, but also the segregation and separation in our country. So if you're black and brown in our district, you are living together for the most part. If you're white, you're living somewhere else, and you tend to be wealthier if you are or doing better economically if you are white in the district. And so this is a district I served for 10 and a half years as a middle school principal before I decided to run for Congress. So, you know, I worked in a Title I public school,

99% black and Latino kids. And, you know, serving the kids and the families directly for that period of time, you see what our families go through, right? You know, food insecurity, housing insecurity, criminal justice entanglement, underinvestment in these communities because of historic redlining, et cetera, et cetera.

And it was those things. as well as the outcomes that those policies produce like literally the death of our children in the Bronx. The year before I ran, 34 kids died within the kid and 12 school system in the Bronx. 17 died by suicide. And no one was making a connection between horrible, racist, discriminatory policies historically

and what was happening with our kids. And so that's why I ran and that's how I'm attempting, to govern, you know, dealing with the issue of mental health, dealing with the issue of affordability, not just housing, but child care, transportation, food, lack of jobs or workforce development programs, reducing gun violence, all the issues that play, you know, black and brown folk anywhere in America because of, again, historic racist policies. There's, Congressman, there's so much attention on this primary election. do you feel like the needs of your constituents are getting lost in the hoopla of it all,

focusing on your stance on Israel, Gaza, or even the student protests? Yes, absolutely. But that's the case. You know, prior to me winning in 2020, the person who was there before me was there for 30 years. And I'm the first person in color, first black man in history to hold this congressional seat. And so unfortunately, the person that was there prior to me wasn't spending enough time focused on the issue in the black and brown community. And even my opponent right now, you know, he made a public comment saying something like gun violence isn't a top issue in Westchester County. Well, tell that to the people and the families in Yonkers who have lost loved ones.

So the people in the families in Mount Vernon who have lost loved ones. That continues to be the case. And one of my frustrations in Congress has been, you know, every other week with all due respect, like we're voting on the bill related to Israel in support of Israel or reasserting that we are not anti-Semitic. So those voting on this bill to prove we're not anti-Semitic. At the same time, we don't move with the same sense of urgency when it comes to black and brown people in the district or poor people across the country, regardless of background, or rural communities. We don't move with the same urgency as it relates to the needs of the district. And that's why we have to

continue frustration and disconnect from what happens in our political. arena, which is why we have to work extra hard to make sure we're bringing people back in. Why? Why are people not moving with the same urgency when you talk about the needs of black and brown people, in your opinion, as they move with when it relates to Israel? Well, it's racism, first and foremost, you know, the organization APAC, they are funded mostly by racist, MAGA Republicans. And most of their money and resources go towards challenging black and brown members of Congress who happen to be critical in Israel, whether it's the occupation or apartheid or what was happening right now.

So at the heart of it is racism. On the other side of it, it's power. You know, APAC has been operating in Washington for 60 years. building an infrastructure to ensure that Israel has had the support, continued support from the U.S. government over that period of time. We, black people, black folk, marginalized folk, immigrants from Latin American countries, etc., we have been simply trying to get our civil rights and voting rights, right? In the last 60 years, like we haven't even had the capacity or opportunity to really build political power

and even economic power, because we're, we're, you know, I'm thinking back to, I believe it's Memphis, sanitation workers, you know, wearing, we're in shirts saying, I am a man, right? We've been fighting for our manhood, our civil rights, our voting rights, while others have been building power. We have to now build power. And so I'm one of the voices of Washington trying to just speak truth to power on these issues. And again, no disrespect to anyone.

We love everyone. It's not about entire anyone. It's about being black in America, growing up during the crack cocaine epidemic to a single mom, going through that, and living with my kids, my students, and now in Congress seeing what happens with our budgets every year and our policies every year and how it's just this anti-Black racism rooted in the DNA and the infrastructure of the policies that we write, regardless of what the category is. And we've got to call that out. Well, this is going to continue. You have the primary election coming up June 25th. I believe that's the date. A lot of people are watching.

This is such an important district. Do you have said before, I believe that your opponent is a Trumper or MAGA? Do you believe that and why? And he's running as a Democrat, just for the audience. Yeah, he's a Democrat. He's been a Democrat his entire life. But he has MAGA Trump donors

who's throwing fundraisers for him multiple times. Now, we don't take, we definitely don't take MAGA money. We definitely don't take any Trump-affiliated money, but we also don't take corporate PAC money, right? Because when you take corporate PAC money, you are now beholden to and accountable to corporations and not to the working-class people you're supposed to be supporting, the people who elected you in, right?

And so this is an individual who is endorsed by APAC, which is mostly funded by MAGA Republicans, the same MAGA Republicans who, you know, didn't certify the election results in 2020, same MAGA Republicans who, you know, are trying to take your reproductive freedom, same MAGA Republicans trying to take our voting rights, the same MAGA Republicans who took affirmative action out of colleges. These are the same people who are funding my opponent's campaign. And so, you know, there's a term that's being used in the district by some.

They don't call it MAGA. They call it MAGA light. So he may not be MAGA Republican. But he's like MAGA light in the way he's carrying himself. And the fact that this lifelong Democrat is partnering with an organization whose number one issue is Israel and also MAGA Republicans to take out the first black man while saying things like I'm taking money from Hamas, quote unquote, I think speaks to the character of the person running against me.

I watched you guys in a debate. It was a very entertaining debate, I should say. that seemed to be any love loss there. But the subject of the campus protests came up. And obviously that's been a hot button issue for the last couple of months. Every news station here has been Valley Who talked about volleyball around. What's your position and stance on the campus protests on the young people's right to protest and some of the crackdowns and counter protests that they've endured since the various encampments have popped up all over the country?

Yeah, you know, First Amendment, right to peacefully assemble, right? Freedom of speech, right to peacefully assemble. And so the kids have a right to peacefully assemble. And the response to bring in law enforcement, particularly militarized law enforcement, is completely heavy-handed and over the top. Because from what I saw when I went to Columbia on my own and spoke to encampers and so-called pro-Israel students, I didn't see a need for bringing in law enforcement

because things were peaceful for the most part outside of breaking some glass to the hall on a particular occasion. And so kids have a right to protest, just generally speaking, they're protesting, and we've got to be reminded of this, they're protesting the end of the collective punishment that is happening in Gaza right now,

and that our taxpayer dollars are being used for that collective punishment. I believe the ICC today is moving now towards potential war crimes that not only for Hamas, but also Benjamin Netanyahu. And so this is what they're protesting. They don't want our money to go towards war

and the killing of babies and children and innocent people. So we need to be reminded of that. And this response, this fascist, in my opinion, over-militarized response, it's the next level of attack on liberal education in America. Anyone who has an opinion that's differing from the status quo or the dominant opinion,

whether it's diversity, equity, inclusion, critical race theory, attacking trans students, banning books in some places in Houston, you know, speaking of Sweden in Texas, you had the state take over the whole school district and turn libraries into detention centers. That's like, what the hell is going on here, right? And so that's what everybody's pushing back on. And we have to remind people that these young people are what they're protesting, number one, but then number two, this is what America is. America is a place where you peacefully protest unjust laws to change those laws.

And that's what the young people are doing right now. And that's why I support them. I watched the talk recently given by a gentleman of a former big wig in foreign policy. and he said that in Greater Israel, there are only four ways to deal with the Palestinians. In Greater Israel includes the West Bank and Gaza, Green Line Israel, including the Israel that is separated from the West Bank in Gaza. He said a one-state solution,

which should include all of the citizens, 7.3 million people that are inside Greater Israel, give them one Democratic vote, which is probably not going to happen because it would change the demographics of that country and you wouldn't have a Jewish majority. The second would be a two-state solution, which seems to be a pipe dream now

because of Netanyahu and the Lukul's party's opposition to that. The third is transfer to drive the Palestinians out, and the fourth is killing them, okay? which would be defined as a genocide. Two of those things are out. Some would say that two of those things are happening. Okay. Do you think that Israel's tactics right now in greater Israel are to, A, drive the Palestinians out

so that they can annex the West Bank and Gaza permanently? And B, do you think that there is a genocide happening right now in? greater Israel. I think what Benjamin Netanyahu is doing right now is the third thing. Like he wants to drive them out. I think historically he has empowered Hamas to that end because the more Hamas was empowered as opposed to the PLO. It created the conditions where driving them out, quote unquote, or ethnic cleansing, some would refer to it as, was going to be the pathway there. I think now since October 7, Benjamin Nanyahu feels he has the opening to go for number four, right? And so, you know, it's interesting.

So genocide has a specific legal definition. I'm not in spurred others, so I ain't going to get into all that. But what I see with my own two eyes is pretty effing horrible and is collective punishment and killing a mostly innocent people. And so, you know, I'll let the ICC, ICJ, excuse me, deal with what the legal definition is of that. I have said out loud before that it is a genocide. Not going to say it again, I'll let them do their jobs. But what's happening right now what we all see is wrong, completely wrong. The majority of the district knows it's wrong by majority.

I mean, like 69% support a permanent ceasefire and 84% support, support, 8, 4% black people in the district support the permanent ceasefire. And so everyone can see right in front of the eyes what's happening. And so I want to go back to number two because when I was running in 2019,

number two became the talking point, right? It is the talking point. There's certain right answers you got to give on Israel. We support its right to exist. We support this right to defend itself and we support a two-state solution. If you get those right answers, people generally leave you alone. Don't talk

about apartheid, don't talk about occupation, don't talk about all that. But in order, in my opinion, and not just my opinion, the opinion of scholars on the issue, in order to have a safe and secure Israel, we need a free Palestine, and we could do both. We could fire anti-Semitism and have a free Palestine, and that's where we need to go. And right now, we're nowhere near there, because to your point about, you know, the two-state solution, when I went there, man, there's 700,000 Israeli settlers in 67 border West Bank right now. And so, like, what are we talking about? So unless the president and other allies step in very heavy-handedly to create a

Palestinian estate, I don't see how that's going to happen, which is very scary. President Biden spoke at Morehouse College this past weekend. And when one of the students was speaking, he called for a ceasefire president Biden class. It got a lot of attention. Do you think that a ceasefire is possible? Yes, but I'm an optimistic guy. I'm always going to answer in the affirmative. Like, hell yeah, we can have peace, we got reparations,

we can do whatever we want, right? I think Netanyahu's decision to go into Rafah has really shifted the president's disposition towards Israel and then Yahoo a little bit, not a lot, but a little bit. I know that myself and others are constantly engaged with the White House and pushing the president on this. If for no other reason, the way our reputation on a global stage and the way we are being perceived right now is horrific, horrible. And for no other reason other than that, we need a permanent ceasefire now. We need those food trucks to come in because famine is setting in for well over a million people.

You know, food trucks are come in, and we need to figure out a pathway to peace in the Palestinian estate. We need the president to lead on this. And we've been very outspoken and calling for that, calling for the president to do that. So I believe it's possible. I hope it happens sooner rather than later. But, you know, just to zoom out for a moment, Western hegemonic imperialism and our policing of the world has been a problem, not just in Gaza, but in the Congo, Sudan, the whole global south.

We have conditions where 9 million kids die every year because they don't have access to clean water. We have conditions where 70% of the cobal used in technology comes from Congo. Congo's not benefited from that wealth. So it's neo-colonial practices that continue to the starvation and the destruction of black and brown people in the global south. And that's the foreign policy that we need to tackle and freak and change. And so Gaza is capturing it all at the moment, but when you zoom out, it's bad across the board, man.

This is, as we all know, I'm preaching to the choir here, but, you know, Western power was built on, you know, indigenous genocide here, enslavement of Africans here, and colonization of Africa there, right? And that's what we're dealing with now is a manifestation of all that. do we have the ability to pivot and even evolve as a human race to a place where we stop freaking settling conflict with killing each other? And can we share this planet together and figure out how to solve big problems like climate change and cancer and poverty together? Can we do that? So even I say yes, but like we got to get to it because we have the technology and the intellect and mindset to do it. We're just not doing it. Representative Jamal Bowman joins us today on Higher Learning.

A couple more questions for you. Representative Bowman. Biden's poll numbers right now in swing states, ladies' polls that have come out show him behind Trump by a significant margin. Very troubling to a lot of people that are anti-Maga, particularly troubling to a lot of people who are Democrats. His numbers in Sweden States are so bad, it seems as if the war in Gaza and other things are putting people against the president

or changing sentiment about him or defining sentiment about him, is he going to win? And if he loses, what does that mean for Palestine? What does that mean for democracy? What does that mean for world stability? Yes, he's going to win. I'm speaking in positive. I'm speaking in positive affirmations.

And we appreciate that. Yes. going to win, man. I'm speaking in positive affirmations. And because he has to, almost like I have to. And not just me. I think this race represents a lot of things, right? This race represents police accountability, criminal justice reform, climate justice, fully funding public schools, universal child care. It represents not just a black agenda, but a progressive agenda. And so we got to win because they're trying to come by the seat, we can't let that happen.

The president has to win because Trump is talking about deporting immigrants from brown countries. He's talking about Muslim bans. He's talking about being dictator for a day. He's talking about getting rid

rid of the radical left. What the hell does that mean, right? That means you. It means me. And he's talking about And his whole demeanor disposition, can you imagine how emboldened white nationalist militias will be in certain parts of the country?

You all know, you're from the South. You all know more than me. We'll be in parts of the country and how many Ahmed Arbree's, you know, are we going to have? And God forbid, Trayvon Martin's, et cetera, et cetera, right? And so I'm concerned about, oh, how many police bills are going to come through Congress

Cracking now? Project 2025, man. I was reading about that recently and watching something on that recently and reminded what they're trying to do with a new conservative president talking about using our military to respond to protests in America's streets. I mean, this is what this president, his former president, is trying to come back with. And so it's scary. So that all sounds very scary to me.

And I don't know what the heck is going to happen if he gets back in. But I know I'm going to be very concerned. for myself and my family. And we shouldn't have to live like that. I was reading an article in New York Magazine that called you the most endangered Democrat in America. And it was really, really interesting because they talk about kind of what's, and you kind of touched on a little bit, but they talk about what's happening in regards to your

opponent and who's backing him. And if this is going to provide a roadmap or a trend of hunting out the person that they can put against someone who they believe. is progressive or radical in an effort to take over that district. Do you believe that you were the most endangered Democrat? Is this true to you? And why? Nah.

No, hopefully that. I get the money thing. You know, I get the whole money thing. And my opponent, people like my opponent a lot. He's been here a long time. But I believe in, you know, when your work is driven by the right. things, right? Like our work is driven by, you know, love of people, love of community, a real vision for what's possible in our country and a real vision of what's possible in terms

of foreign policy. We've tried to make decisions for the right reasons and for the right people. And so I believe that is more powerful than anything else. Like the power of hope and the power of compassion and the power of empathy and the power of love in our politics. I won't even talk about love in politics. And we need to because when we pass certain bills, it shows who we care about it, who we don't care about, who we love and who we don't love, right? And so for me, I don't feel that way at all. And then on the ground here, I don't feel that way because, like, the people here, you know, they know the work we've done. We brought over a billion dollars to the district, you know, focused on every area you could think of, affordable house. And

housing, child care, health care, education, climate justice, workforce development, substance abuse, et cetera, et cetera. So no, I don't feel that way at all. I feel empowered and I feel inspired. And I feel grateful to even be in this position. If we weren't doing the right thing, like, they wouldn't be coming after us. And so, like, let's keep doing the right thing for the right reasons. And let's chips fall where they may, you know.

And the last thing I'll say is also just very technical. our polling is really clear. If black and brown people come out and people under 50 come out, we win and we win big. The whole thing is turnout. He has a base. They are motivated to vote. They will be coming out. We need to respond.

People under 50, people of color. And actually, ironically, white women over 50 actually rock with us too. I think it's because, you know, one, the progressive values, but also, two, I'm an educator. And the majority of teachers in America are white women. So we know if our base comes out, we win and we win big. Right. So you got the Demi Moore's on your side. Okay.

You're doing good with the Demi Moore's. All right. I feel you. So what's hilarious about that? I just went to a fundraiser with Biden in my district at, what's his name? Michael Douglas is how. The Catherine Zeta Jones is. Yeah.

So like I'm in there. And I'm like, as soon as I get there with my wife, my wife asks Michael Douglas, where's Captain's name of Joe? She just wanted to see her. She wasn't there, unfortunately. But at this fundraiser, a lot of people who were there aren't really Bowman supporters. But the point is, yes, like the Cynthia Nixon's of the world, the Jane Fonders of the world, the Susan Sarandon's of the world. Like, those are my people. The good whites. They come into the district to do events. Those are my people. What do you call? The good whites. All in them, we, we, we, we, we mess with all in them. We fuck with all in them.

Okay. Last question for me. Yes. I watched you during the House anti-Semitism situations you guys had up there. You said something that was really, it really grabbed me. You said, here on the mall, there are three statues of black people. there are 12 statues of Confederate leaders. And you said, I work inside of a racist institution.

My final question for you is, there's been some talk and questions asked to Vice President Kamala Harris and to Mr. Clyburn about whether or not America is a racist country. And this is a lot of constant, this question calls. causes a lot of consternation. I understand it's a very loaded question. Because you were brave enough to say that,

as you sat there, I'm asking you, do you think that America is a racist country, Representative Bowman? Yes. It's racist because of the structural, institutional, almost genetic infrastructure

of our government, and our economic and social systems. And so when we talk about racism, I think like people like the three of us, we're not just talking about individual one-on-one white person or white person. We're talking about the structures that create the manifestation of what we currently exist in, right? So when you look at any indicator, right,

so life expectancy, health outcomes, economic outcomes, education outcomes, most likely to be incarcerated, most likely to die as a police, most likely to die during childbirth, most likely to die during first year after childbirth. Any of these indicators, you see African Americans at the bottom of all of these indicators. I'm not even going to zoom out and talk about the global south and the colonization of Africa at the moment. And then you see, so redlining housing discrimination, on and on and on.

But at the same time, you see the U.S. Congress not leading a serious conversation on repairing the harms of history so that we can have different outcomes right now, a lot of reparations. And so if we have these outcomes right in front of our faces and we're not putting forth any discussion or white paper or executive order or policy relating to repairing the, those harms. And by the way, we have many examples of actual racism that people deal with every day, right? Like, you know, not just being called the N-word, being called the N-word in a variety of different ways. Akhmet Arbery, I mentioned some other examples before. You have all that, you're not responding to it. What conclusions are we to draw? The conclusion is we are a racist country, institutionally. Again, there's a lot of good white people, as we all say, right?

They're definitely awesome. Individual to individual. And also, you know, I was really moved by, I haven't read the book, honestly. I'm kind of embarrassed to say, but I did see the movie origin. Oh, yeah. Shout to Abraham. And he had a cast, right? And who's at the top of the cast?

Who's at the bottom of the cast and how racism feeds the cast, right? And so that's also at play. And, you know, and for me, let's just be honest. about it and and and and and and and and you know that that's what people like me like me are trying to do um it does you know brother um keheny andrews i think is his name from the uk i think he has a new book called the psychosis of whiteness and he's talking about uh you know not whiteness is white people but the idea of whiteness and and the and the harm it causes mentally and psychologically to everyone, white and black and brown,

this idea that white is superior and everything else is below that. That's a subconscious thing that continues to drive a lot of behaviors that then filter into individuals who are benefited from the system. And so that's a super long answer. Sorry about that, but that's like, so yes, but that's why it's the yes. That's great. Last question for me, and we appreciate your time, Congressman. There was a lot of drama this week, particularly with the,

House Oversight Committee. I'm just wondering, will you be buying a bleach blonde, bad built, butch body t-shirt? Yeah. You're going to wear it. Of course I am. I got to support

my sister Jasmine. You know what's so great. Let me tell you what's great about this. Okay. First of all, I'm in the district all weekend. And everywhere I go, I was in Mount Vernon and in Carp City, two blackest parts of the district, right? and all everybody kept saying was how much they hate Marjorie Taylor agreed.

Like, when we called out earlier in the year, they loved me for it. They kept saying that. All people were saying this weekend. But some woman in White Plains yesterday was like, I need, tell Representative Crocket, I need one of them shirts. She need to point that phrase. She need to

trade money, blah, blah. So I called Jasmine on the FaceTime and she answered, thank God. And I got to let my constituent talk to her and have an engagement with her. See, that is the kind of, that is powerful and incredible power building for our communities that we need to do politics. That kind of thing.

It happens as well, and I'll close with this. You know, when I'm in some random part of the country, like Bessemer, Alabama, and some young black kid is like, hey, Congressman Boone, what's up, man, love your work. Like, that's what we need to be doing. And that's what those on the other side are trying to. to stop. All right, so we got to go. Somebody just pulled the fire alarm here at Spotify.

So we got we got to get out of here. But the vote is on the 25th. Yes, of June. Early voting, June 15th. Early voting June 15th, the vote

is on the 25th. You guys, I would encourage you to go watch any of the debates. And if you're there in the New York area, in the 16th, go watch any of it. In my opinion, this is our podcast, so I think the distinction is clear, make up your own mind.

But Red Bowman, we appreciate you coming here and answering all the questions, honestly. Thank you for joining us today on Highland. How can people support you, even from a distance, even if they're not in your district? Thank you. So, Bowmanfor Congress.com, that's Bowmanfor Congress.com.

you can volunteer for the campaign on the phone bank or text bank or door knocking. You can also make a contribution, even if it's like 20 bucks, it's helpful. So please, anyone who can make a contribution, please do that. That's a big help to us. Bowman for Congress.com. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Peace of love, y'all. Same to you. You like Jamal. I really do. Yeah, you like. I'll be donating to this campaign. I could tell. I was thinking maybe in another world.

What? Get to the real. Don't do that. Give me to somebody who's actually single. I know. But I seen the ring. And when I saw the ring, I was like, no playbook. I was thinking for it. It's like, you know what?

No, this is why I tell you, it's a myth. There are plenty of single men out here that you know. We're working. Well, now I've got to do a lot more vetting. So, it's a lot more than it goes into it. I tore up my old list. That isn't that bad.

It's not that bad, but fuck, like I said before, I don't know. I got to ask around, man. I got to, like, I got to do a lot more. I just was seeing people, it was like, they were just showing me everywhere. Okay, cool. You guys, look, the next interview that we're going to is with Glenn Big Baby Davis. This is my cousin. Look, this is an important interview.

Glenn said he wanted to come on here and tell his story. He did. I want everyone to listen. open minds, open hearts, and understand that this is a part of my family. And I did my absolute best to represent the questions I should have been asked. Rachel was at her amazingly best, but we really, really, really tried to give Glenn a platform to tell the story, but also ask the pertinent questions to this case that anybody would ask. Okay?

That's up next on higher learning. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, Reliable Internet means everything. for your business, and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

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All right, you guys, we promised we would make this happen. We promised this interview was going to happen. We talked a little bit about it before. Joining us in person on the podcast. Yes. Is none other than Glenn Big Baby Davis. Yes. We're pleased to have you here. Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure to be here.

I'm a fan. I've watched you guys grown. See the work you guys been doing. My cousin here. And I'm very proud of you, man. Representing for Baden Rouge. We talk a lot of Baton Rouge on the podcast. Little Cubs, man, I'm concerned.

You know, word came down that you got three years. You have 40 months based upon, you know, you're convicted earlier and led scheme to defraud the league's health care benefit plan. Me and you had talked about this and you had told me, not just for people that know, there was NBA players that were involved in an alleged scheme to defraud the insurance benefits plan. There's been some sentences handed down. Terrence Williams, an ex-player got 10 years.

We'll bind him, I think, got 18 months. You got 40 months. A lot of people caught up into it. You've also been ordered to pay $80,000 in restitution. So, mama, my sister, everybody we heard, we were very sad, very concerned. But then when you reached out, you said that you wanted to tell your story. And I think for a lot of people, they would be wondering, like, what your story is. So I guess my first question would be, what do you feel like is being said about you that's not true?

What do you feel about where are people getting it wrong? What is your story? Well, my story is the fact that I never defrauded the plan. And my intentions were never to defraud the plan. I had an injury in 2015 where the Los Angeles Clippers didn't tell me my ankle was broken. So I took it upon myself as a player. And, you know, I took it on myself and also the education that they gave me on my foot, that the fact that it wasn't broken, so I kept playing.

So, you know, and I shot my foot up three times to play, and my foot was broken. I didn't know. I would have never shot my foot up if they would have told me it was broken. I would have never tried to play. And so me trying to play, it did more damage to my heart. foot and I didn't realize that until after the exit meeting, they didn't tell me my foot was broken. I had to find out from my own research and people in Baton Rouge that, hey, your foot's broken. And so now as a free agent, that's different, right?

You're by yourself. You're rehabbing by yourself. And at the same time, life is hitting you, right? Going to a divorce, my agent's brother got shut. You know, Darrell Hamilton from Baton Rouge. Yeah. You know, it was a lot going on. And it put me in a big depression where you can see it. You can see where there's an assault charge.

There's a drug charge. A drug charge that I had that went away, you know, because weed is legal now. So it's just like I was going through so much. And when they say you defraud the plan, it's like, it's impossible, you know, because of my background and my injury and what happened, I had a real injury. And so when you're having a real injury, you're coming from a place of, like, not trying to take, I'm trying to get what I, it's old when I'm old. Like, you know what I mean? So, but the thing about it is that people don't realize the fact that the system is corrupt. There were hundreds of

basketball players that wasn't on that list. That, literally got subpoenaed for the same thing, but you didn't hear nothing about it. They're on ESPN. They're on your favorite podcast. And so imagine if the NBA lets that get out. You know what I mean? Explain to me what you're saying, though.

So meaning that the fact that the players association and the owners came up with a collecting a bargain agreement, right? The collecting a bargain agreement had health insurance in there for the NBA players. So if you wanted to be a part of it, you put your money and, owners matches your money. This money doesn't come from taxpayers. This money comes from us.

If the money would disappear, the money would go right back to us. So that's one of the issues also, too, because now they're telling us that we have this money for these injuries, right? I just want to get compensated for what I've been through. And so running into the system, the system, everybody is doing it. Like, you know what I mean? So I didn't want to see here and rat on my friends and rat on the people that, you know, I didn't want to do that. And so now I'm sitting here doing time for health care when I needed it, you know, when I needed it.

And when this doctor in Atlanta is a scam and everybody knows this. And so he just basically told on me, right, to get his time cut. He only got six months. I want to go back because you talk about the injury that you had that you didn't know how did we get here to the point where like in between you having injury

you needing care and then additional care outside of the injury to the ankle because it was more than just the ankle that you were receiving care from so like how did we get here how did this happen to the point because you've mentioned a couple of things

you were talking about the doctor in Atlanta, the insurance plan. So going back to the collecting the bargain agreement, there's money available, right? And I didn't know when I first got out. A friend of mine that's in this investigation that's doing time, he came to me and he asked me, he said, hey, are you paying cash for all your injuries? And I say, yeah, right? And so he's educating me about this money that I have with the Players Association and

letting me know how much money I got. being a friend, you know, us basketball players, it's a brotherhood. Whose responsibility is it to let you know that this was available? Like your agent? My financial advisor and my business partner who was not doing that, who also took the stand on me and lied. And so basically the collecting the bargaining agreement has this money that's available for us.

And he came to me saying, hey, you know, are you using cash? And I said, yeah. And so, okay, this is what you can do. I can help you, you know, get the money that you deserve. So we go to a doctor's office, right? And I'm thinking like, oh, okay, cool, we're going to a doctor's office and we're getting easy access. We don't have to go, you know, everybody's back here to his assistant and stuff, but we're just getting the right treatment. I'm not thinking nothing's wrong or I'm doing anything wrong.

So we go, we get the examines, and then two weeks later, Terence Williams calls me. and I know Terrence Williams, but I don't know him. This is my first time having a conversation with him. And so he asks me, hey, man, why are you not answering the phone? Why are you not answering the phone? And I'm like, you know, I didn't know you. Like, what's up? Like, he was like, hey, man, I'm the one that did Allen's and I'm the one that helped this.

I represent the Players Association. I'm like, you're a rep for the Players Association? He's telling everybody this. And so as we go along, as we go along, as we go along, long, we're having conversation, and I feel weird about it. So I get my financial advisor involved. And so I get him involved. He talks to him, and then he calls me back, and he says, hey, review it, sign it, send it back. And for me, I'm thinking that's cool, because this guy has done everything for me, from my whole life, from divorce papers, from signing taxes, to making sure that everything,

my family, like this guy, but 11, 10 years. What did you sign? There's a document, right, that he has to fill out with all the things. We have to fill out with all the stuff, right? And so he fills it out. So I'm thinking it's okay, you know, because I'm coming from a place of, hey, he knows my injury. He knows what I've been through and we need this money.

You know what I mean? And so he signs this and I'm thinking, okay. And as things start to involve, Terrence starts to be like, yo, I need $16,000. And I'm like, fuck no. I'm not giving you $16,000. For what? What are you? And so that's when I started to know and started to feel.

So I called Tony Allen. And Tony Allen told me like, hey, man, you shouldn't a, you know, you shouldn't fuck with this guy. You should fuck with me. And I'm thinking, like, in my head, I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Right? And so as the plan evolves and stuff happens, right? Right? Me and Terrence get into it.

And I'm like, hey, bro, I'm not about to fucking give you $16,000. This is, you know what I mean, bro? He'd go $1,000, right? Because he needed a loan. He was begging for a loan. Like, he needed money. And so I gave that just to say, hey, bro, it's over with, look, hey. So I end up not getting any money, right?

Because the plan manager, be told the plan, right? But I'm still under investigation. Right? And so as I thinking to myself, oh, it's over with, hey, I didn't get no money. Hey, everything's good. There's an investigation going on. Right. And as I'm going to rehab, again, I go to another friend doctor that's in Encino who's also in this situation, right?

Who also pled, right, to whatever he did. You know what I mean? So that's another corrupt that I don't even know. Right. I'm just going to where my peers are going and all my friends are going. And so as that evolves, as that evolves, you know, I'm like, I'm good. You know, I'm like, oh, you know, so I end up calling the lawyers from the plan ends up calling me, which shocks me. From the NBA's health plan.

Yeah, the NBA health plan, they call me. And they call me with like three or four or five lawyers on the phone and they call me, you know. And all I think about is I don't want to snitch. Right. I don't want to rat on them. I don't want to be the one that's telling that, you know, they're doing something fucked up because I was so lost in my world. I wasn't paying attention.

Did you know it by then that something was wrong? I knew something was wrong by then. And I could have went and told, you know, I could have been like, hey, no, these guys are da-da-da-da-da. But I didn't want to do that. Let me ask you something. You say that you had an injury and it was to your ankle. The documents and things that have come out claim that you guys had six root canals

on the same tooth, that it wasn't for an ankle. Yeah. And so now that comes to the point of trusting, right? I'm thinking Eggard and doing the right thing, you know what I mean? And he's paying attention doing the right stuff, but he's not paying attention doing the right stuff. So you weren't aware that? I wasn't aware of that.

I wasn't aware of that they had this invoice on here or that invoice on there. You know, I never knew. You know, I was just asking him, hey, man, find out for me. Because I don't know. You know what I mean? I know I spent so much money, like figure it out. And that's what he came back with. And Edgar's your financial.

And Edgar's my financial person. So you were getting treatment for what you needed. I was always getting treatment. I was always getting treatment. And were you signing paperwork in regards to the additional treatment, like what Van referred to or I think there was something that said? Yes, I was doing physical therapy with different types of physicians. I was always in a phase of getting treatment because I had a broke ankle and it never really healed.

You know what I mean? So I was always going. I have records of every doctor that I'd ever been to, you know, in situations like that. I mean, were you signing the paperwork in regards to, like, the root canal or that said you got service on one day, but you were really in someone else? It's all on one piece of paper, right? And so if you sign, if you sign down here on the dotted line, like, it's all one. It's not like, oh, multiple pages that I got to sign. It was only one.

You mean when you're reporting to the insurance for your. the treatment that you received. Yeah, so, like, all the treatment and stuff is on one piece of paper. So everything, you know, parents made up all the invoices. He made up all that stuff. And my financial advisor,

I don't know what the hell he was thinking. You know what I mean? Because I'm trusting him. You know, I asked him. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I literally asked him. I say, hey, I need you to find out all the things that I can put on here and cannot.

So you didn't read any of the paperwork that you signed. I didn't. I didn't, and I never did. I never have from taxes. I never looked at anything. And that's why I'm here today to talk about the athletes that are not filling in the gap, meaning the fact that like doing the necessary things, this is why we are going instinct when we are done.

You know what I mean? Because the lack of daisy and just the worldly things that come in the midst of what's going on, got to figure out how do we help these athletes instead of putting them in jail. Like, that's the issue. You know what I mean? And so as this stuff is evolving, the investigation is still going on. So I didn't get no money, but they still wanted to investigate me. So as me, I go to another friend of mine, who did I trust, that I know I've seen physicians, she's worked with me, you know, at the big three at every game, this doctor. And I go to him and I say, say, hey, I told him the situation what happened with Terrence. And I say, hey, man, I don't want to do anything

illegal. I need to be accounted for for my injury, though. And I said, what can we do? He said, you can put all the big three because I was there working with you, all the big three dates, and that's what we did. And now he turns around, pleas the fifth, doesn't come to court, and just turns around and say, hey, I brought him to the party when he's already over here party. that he says that you involved him in this scheme. Yes. At any point did you have a conversation with Tony Allen or with Terrence Williams

where they explicitly told you that there was a scheme to defraud the NFL, the NBA's insurance? No. Never had a conversation with them. Do you think that they thought you knew what was going on? No. They had no idea that I... They literally had no idea. Like, they had no idea how coolest I was. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, as far as, They were just so far and, like, just so farne, because they just, I just, I just literally just let it go. Like, you know what I mean? Like, when I talked to, I didn't, when I, when I questioned Eggert, you know, he was like, everything's fine. And so I just let it without even just checking. You know what I mean?

I just let everything go, you know? So, but at the same time, my intentions was never to steal from the plan because I have an injury, you know, and I've been working hard, you know. I was trying to get back for the big three. So, like, all those hours, that's what I was accounting for. What year is this that this is taking place? 2017, well, 2018, 19. 2018, 19.

Yeah, when I was in the Big Three. And you were made aware that you were being indicted when? I made aware when I was being indicted. It was somewhere around, like, 19. 20. I watched a Vladder interview with you when you were talking to him, and you seemed pretty confident. You said take it to trial.

You did not think that you were going to be found guilty in sentence to jail about this. No, I figured that did. Did you take the whole thing seriously, Glenn? Yes, I took it seriously. Sometimes it doesn't seem like it. I did. I took it seriously.

You know what I mean? I really did. I just figured that the FBI would do better job. like I thought they were going to do a better job and find, you know, what's going on. Instead of me, instead of me getting on the stand and telling, you know, and I thought I was going to get on the stand and talk, but they didn't let me. You know what I mean? I thought that was a big thing on why the difference between, you know,

you know, Will and me. You know, he got on the stand. He got a chance to talk, you know. And then also they made it seem like I brought the doctor to the party. So it's like you're bringing somebody, you know, And so they added more time because of that also, too. You didn't testify? No.

That wasn't a decision you made with- My lawyer told me not to. When I told her I wanted to, she told me not to. Let me ask you this. You said that there are over 100 NBA players that have been involved in this or are involved in this. I don't know if you're saying this is still going on or not. Why do you think you were targeted? When you look at my career and the things,

that has happened in my career. I think as a basketball player in the NBA, they put you in a category. And I think when the FBI came to call me to talk to me, to come to me, I think that was my opportunity to say what I wanted to say. So I think it was just more like the FBI,

all these guys are doing this. You guys got to give us something. And so they just let out of it the ones that they felt were not beneficial to the league. And that's why I'm here. Do you think they indicted you hoping to flip you? Flip me? Flip you and get you to talk. Do you think that they thought?

Oh, yeah. Most definitely I think they wanted me to, you know, I don't, I really, I don't even think that I just think that this is a high profile case. And I'm the biggest guy on here when you think about it. I'm the biggest one. Nobody knows anybody else really on this case. Like, nobody knows Melvin Heelan. Nobody knows, you know, Alan Anderson, you know. I just think the way I went about it, I think, gave them more fuel, right?

Because you go on Vlad TV, you know, you're having fun. You're going to the Celtics game. You're going to see, you know, Kevin Garnett get retired. They, you know, they think, you know, that he's in, you know. But I'm just trying to, like. deal with the other shit I got going on, trying to embrace what I've done in the relationships I've been around. So I think I've handled it the wrong way.

You know what I mean? Even after you were sentenced, you were talking about the fact that you were not going to be able to eat hamburgers for three years. And I wanted to call you and be like, little cuss, man. Relax. Don't antagonize the government. Yeah, that was wrong. But at the same time, it's just that.

What you want me to do? You want me go take a crack pipe and go put it to my mouth? Or you want me to start doing meth? Or do you use that as a way of just coping? You know what I mean? Because I'm, you know, months ago, years ago, you know, I was damn near close. You think about my career and my life and all that shit I was sending you. Yeah.

That all happened. Divorce, death, you know, arrested for the first time of your life. Like, arrested again for the second time of your life. And like a month later, like, I remember it. I needed help. I needed somebody to say, hey, what's up? What's you doing? What's going on?

You know, cry. It's okay to cry. I know you big baby, but you don't cry. You know what I mean? Last time you cry, he was on national TV. That's the last time I ever cried. You know what I mean? So.

You said in court that when you lost basketball, you lost yourself. Can you explain that? because some people could take that as like an admission. Can you explain what you meant when you said that because I think that there are other people who might imagine there are other people, other players who aren't maybe feel the same way? I don't know. You know, he kind of know my history and where I'm from

and what I've been through. And basketball was a protector. It shielded me away from the things that I had to endure and see growing up. And when that was taken away and I had to fend for myself and figure out how to deal with life, I didn't know because I didn't have basketball. I didn't know. I used to gauge basketball with everything that I did in my life.

And so I had to reroute and figure that out, you know, and it was difficult. And the way it happened, not on my own terms. You know, I was eating myself up, you know, living in the flood. going crazy, doing things flying private, just doing things to get away from the divorce, to, you know, to get away from the bad decisions. And, you know, I kept digging myself in a hole, you know. And so I was lost. I didn't have a guide. You know, everybody has a guide in life.

You know, sometimes people come in your life and, you know, or, you know, people guide themselves by the Bible. But basketball was my guide. So I just struggled. I struggled. I was in a dark place, meaning the fact that, like, I was depressed. I couldn't get out the bed,

you know, smoking extremely a lot. Like, don't want to work out. Don't want to answer the phone. Like, you know, I didn't know I was depressed. And so now when you're in a situation,

when you, you know, you're going through so much, you know what I mean? And you're coming from a place of, like, you know, an injury, a real injury.

You know what I mean? That's why, I'm sitting here now trying to get my point across because, you know, walking out in the street and people looking at you and seeing you and you know damn well, like, man, like, this is not me. Like, people, you know? So, you know, I don't even know if, like,

really when I think about it, like, it's just fucked up, you know, the way the situation is. You talked about players in the league and what they do in retirement, You made $30 million in the NBA. I know Tony Allen had a successful career as a veteran for a long time, one of the best defensive players. Terrence Williams, not as much, didn't play as long.

But a lot of these guys had success. Where's the money? Like, what, how does something like this, how do people get involved in something like this? Well, the biggest thing that I see, right, is the fact that there's this big mirage. just big illusion of what NBA players make and what they don't make, you know? And at the end of the day, you know, you see 30 million, but it's really 15, 12,

because so much money has to be taken away from you, right? Taxes, you pay taxes in every state, right? You have the agent fees. You know, you got your family fees. You got your fees. And then what happens is you get in the NBA and there's a certain way in stigma image to live and you try to keep up. But you can't keep up with Kevin.

You can't keep up with Paul. You can't keep up with Rondo. You know what I mean? And so you live with this and you keep going. And now you're building bad habits. You're not doing the right things. You know, and now it's just a snowball effect because you are the leader, right? And nobody's going to really tell you anything.

You know, they're just going to be, all right. You know, they're going to watch you, you know, your financial. if I was going to watch you. Like, hey, you know, he's not going to be like, hey, you know, stand there and, hey, bro, this is what you need to do. Like, they're all with it, you know what I mean? And so there's so many things that you have to endure, you know, but you've got to be ready.

And, you know, I wasn't ready, you know, when I got that money, I wasn't ready. You know, I did some things to help me now, you know, to keep me afloat, keep me going. But I could have did way more. if I did those things, you know, when I had millions and millions of dollars. Right. Right.

And so I think what it is, the Players Association, I think, you know, they have to do a better job of being hands-on. And then I think the other thing is that you have to go to where they are in order to affect anyone. You got to go to where they are. You know, you've got to be hands-on with them. And I think that's what we miss because as players were up here, You know what I mean?

And so when we come down, we're not outside. We're in the house. There has to be somebody to go knock on the door and say, hey, bro, what, what's going on? You know? And I think that's what we're missing. And I think it's going to keep going and keep going. You know, your favorite players are broke. You see on TV every day.

Don't have no money, you know, and I think that's a problem, right? All those players, they didn't, you know, they're losing money. They're not. How much of that is on them? If I'm asking you, like, just to, I understand everything that you're saying, where, in your opinion, does the responsibility of the league and their personal responsibility began? What would you say if someone asked you that?

Well, when I think about, right, how much is on you? right a lot is on you you know a lot of decisions are on you when I think about how I grew up

the way I grew up I know you know my situation is a little bit different I get it than your other situation tell them well you know I grew up in

Baddner's Louisiana the Ian Park area Gus Young and it was a tough place What's the nickname of that place? They call it Parktown. You know, it's one of the most deadliest places, you know, you can be in. And my mother was on drugs, majority of my life until now.

You know what I mean? She's been clean. But we went through a crazy path, you know, to the point of, you know, seeing her every day on the streets, you know. But you ain't see her in two weeks, but she's around the corner in the back, you know. So it's like, I've seen a lot of things and basketball took me away from it. You know, I'm really an overachiever. You know, that's why I kind of smile a little bit because I came from the fucking dirt like shit. You know, that's why I make a joke.

You know, but I hate using that for an excuse, you know. I hate using my past for an excuse, but it has hindered me in ways that has affected me right now. And a lot of these players that are in the NBA are coming from these broken homes. That's the thing. A lot of these players are coming from broken homes or coming from, you know, tough situations where they're not, you know, they're trying to break the cycle, but their past is a part of them.

And so that's what happens. I think that's what's going on. A lot of these players are really coming from these urban areas, you know, and they're not having guys. or, you know, people being there and then leaving, you know what I mean? I think that's where that's coming from, you know, so I think there's a point where you have to be accountable, but then at the same time, it's just the fact that if you have an organization like the Players Association that get paid to protect the players, let's protect the players.

Let's stop this ongoing cycle of what's going on. Let's educate them on what they have. I didn't know I had pensions and things like that. I didn't find that out to three years after that I can get paid every day. I mean, every month. I didn't know that. You know, because, you know, they let that money just sit because they use it. You know what I mean?

Right? If the players go in the player in the CBA, if the owners have a loss of revenue, guess what money they can pull from? The health care plan. They can pull money from the health care plan if they have. I have a loss of revenue. I'm going to jail. That doesn't make any sense to me.

How are you right now? Fucked up. But I'm a dog. You know what I mean? A curbside dog. You know what that is? A curbside dog is you might see him in the backguard over there. You're going to see him on the curb over here.

You're going to see him stealing chickens over here. You're going to see him over here fighting that dog over here. That's just what it is. Yeah, I might got a hurt leg, but I'm outside. I'm okay. You know, I got people that ain't coming home. I got motherfuckers waiting for me in jail. You know what I mean?

So it's like my mindset, you know, and it's just the fact that now, like, I just want to be a staple. I want to be a staple for athletes that need mental help, that want help, that need help, that want somebody to sit with them, want somebody to talk with them.

a guy like me that I can relate to, not some regular guy that just, you know, and so. Back to the case for a second. You're saying that a lot of the things that happened, all of the things that happened you were unaware of. Do you think in any way you were targeted by Tony Allen or Terrence Williams because they were aware that you were a move?

I think Alan Anderson and Antoine Wright. Antoine Wright was a guy that testified against me that said that I knew Trenner. Williams before this and I did this before with him before. I think Alan, I think those two right there are because they were best friends. They live with each other. They, and everybody knows this. You know what I mean?

Like, they were dogs. And I feel like he went out on the limb for him. Because if I rat on Alan Anderson and say, he brought me to the party. And that's three people bringing him to the party. Not two. And the other two were his best friends. How did the government prove their case? Were there text messages, were their emails, were there?

Alan Anderson got on the stand. And he went and visited the, they say he went and visited the prosecutor probably like 15, 16 times. Those testimony. Yeah. So testimony is what got me. And you didn't testify. And I didn't testify. I don't want to ask you why because I don't want to get into a current attorney client.

I don't want you to say something that's like attorney client privilege if that. That's a decision that you're attorney. No, that ain't a totally black, bruce. The fucking attorney was, you know, I don't think she truly understood. Who brought you in? Alan Anderson. And did you know him at all before? Because I guess my question is.

I knew him before. I knew he was a friend of mine. He was, you know, I can call him. I used to call him my friend. Do you think you're too trusting of people? Hell yeah. I was just talking to my friends about that. Too trusting.

And I think that's what, that's, this is what, that's my situation. So I know you joke as a form of just to get by, like Van brought up the hamburgers thing. But truly, are you going to fight this and what's next for you? I got to. I got to. I got to go to the appeal and put the appeal in. I got, I got to fight, you know. Where I'm from, you know, I can take it if I've done something wrong.

Where I'm from, I could take it and go sit down. And, you know, I fucked up. But this ain't me. I didn't fuck up on this. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of stuff being hidden. And I just want to get help to prove my point, you know, to make sure that, you know, that a lot of athletes don't fall by the wayside like this.

You know? So in reading the document, it says that there were not just the root canal, but fake. chiropractic treatments that were invoiced, that were created for you, an email to Terrence Williams, and they had a service charge of $15,000.

You have no knowledge of that. You did not know that. Did you ever see a chiropractor? Yes. I've seen a chiropractor. And that's what I was trying to leave it up to my financial advisor, because he knows all my finances. He can look at all my bank statements and look and say, you know, he was over here. This is what he did here,

you know. Like, that's where I want to take the blame also too because my big fat ass should have fucking got up and looked at that shit. Instead of sitting here, smoking weed, doing this, you know, feeling sorry about myself, what I'm going through. You know, that's the only thing that I regret, that I trusted this man and that I should have never trusted him like that.

You know? If you're my financial advisor and you're somebody that I'm not signing that. no matter what the fuck you say or whatever the fuck, like, did the financial advisor, that the financial advisor benefit financially from whatever this scheme was, he'd get paid? Yes, he would benefit, right? Because he would get paid.

By who? If I get money in my account, he has money. Because at the same time, you know, like, he could see the money leaving and he was leaving too. And this is a situation to where, And I'm not conjuring anything for anyone. I want you to be able to tell your truth, but I want to make sure we ask all the questions, Lucas.

If what you're, are you saying that he was part of the scheme because at that point, maybe you weren't generating enough money for him in other places? No, he, for example, if you, you know, I didn't pay him, right? I had to stop paying him, right? But he was still working because I was still having opportunities, places and stuff like that. so he was still working with me. You know, but Edgar knows what's going on. He also has a client that works that was at the same doctor's office

that got the doctor in the valley, got, took the plea, right? He also knew about that. I was going to ask you that. Is he the financial advisor for any of the other that have been accused? Not indicted, but was a woman. around got investigated. But they played coach on, you know,

teams, on big companies, these guys. So the list of players are involved in this, just real quick. 18 players charged. Terrence Williams, Alan Anderson. These are guys that people are going to recognize Anthony Allen, Tony Allen,

Shannon Brown, Will Bynum, Melvin Eli, CDR, is for Douglas Roberts. Anthony Roton, Milton Palaciel, I don't remember him, Sebastian Telfare. Antoine Wright, there's Miles, Rubin Paris, Eddie Robinson, Gregory Smith,

Ronald Glenn Davis, you of course, and Jamario Moon. These people have been indicted. These are all the people that were under indictment at first. And so all those players gave money back to Terrence. Why? Terrence basically did everything for them.

Right? another player like Will Bynum, Terrence came to him and said, you know, he works for the Players Association too. He told a lot of players that, you know, and then players felt like they had to help him, you know, so they gave him back. Some players didn't give him nothing back,

you know, because they knew it was wrong. So that's what I'm trying to understand. So he came and said, I work for the association. This is what the rights you should have You have this pension or this insurance. And then he said, because I informed, you're saying, because he said, I informed you of this,

then I deserve some money back. And that's what he was saying. And you're saying you're the only one. So they didn't trace you giving any money to him. I gave him $1,000, like a loan. $1,000. I didn't even never get any money. So imagine I didn't get no money from the plan,

but my dumb ass, feeling sorry for him, gave him $1,000. So all you got was treatment. All I got was treatment. Mm-hmm. You never got any money. The money that I got from the doctor, right? So when I go, this is what happened. This is what happened.

This is why I got in this, right? Because I didn't get no money from this. And they kept investigating me, right? So I'm thinking that I'm doing something right. I go to a real doctor. This doctor is real. He's at the big three with all the players. He's here with us working out.

And I went to him, and I told him about the situation. over here. And he said, don't worry about this. Everything we're doing is legit. All you have to do is just send me your card. What I'll do, the times that we were at the big three, this is what I'll put down here. And that's my understanding of the money that I got. What do you mean when you say that? So basically like, basically like for the big three, right? I was working, everybody's working out. Trainers here. The trainers everywhere. This guy. this trainer was there. Right?

And so basically, when I came to him from another friend, another friend that say, hey, I got a doctor for you, a player that's playing, right? I got that I didn't want to tell on. You know? And so I get his information from there, and he's like, hey, man, come, come, right?

Because he's been recruiting me this whole time at the big three, right? And I'm seeing all these guys. I'm like, this is some legit shit, you know? And so basically what he does, is he turns around and said, hey, Glenn brings me to the scam. Like, you know, he's telling me, like, I created this whole thing for him, which I didn't, because I got my information from my best friend who plays on a team with you that goes to you,

right, all the time. How does that interact with you getting money? That's what they were though. Okay, so basically for all my work that I did, right, that was cash. What do you mean work that you did? So work, I did treatment from the name of them, like ice and stem. I did all types of... And you were being paid for treatment?

Yeah. What did you say? You're being paid for treatment? No, you don't get paid for treatment. You get paid for the stuff that you've already done, right? Okay. So the big three, right? We go and we work out.

We do ankle release. We do stem. We do acupuncture. We do all types of stuff. Right? And so now I can account for all that because that's all health injury. It's all getting my foot ready to play, rehab, all that stuff. So that's what he put on there.

He's the doctor. Right. So he puts that on the doctor. Okay, cool. So he puts that on there. What I'm trying to figure out is how does him putting that on there relate to you or somebody else getting money? Because he's telling me that they're saying that I'm supposed to be in Atlanta, right? He turns around and switch everything, right?

and says that, oh, no, Glenn was at the big three. When you told me to put the big three on there. Right. Right. So the doctor does that? Uh-huh. Then does he submit that to the NBA? Yes.

Okay. So he submits that to the NBA. And then there's then a payment based upon, because they're supposed to cover your medical bills. So then they reimburse you for whatever the cost would be for that. Did you receive any of that money? Yes. $40,000.

$40,000. You received that from the big three. Now, I've received that from the doctor, right? The doctor said, the doctor goes and does it. Hey, I'm going to see you this money. What account you want me to send this money to? Now, this treatment that you were getting would not have been covered by the big three. The big three wouldn't have paid for that.

Hell no. Okay, so you're getting this treatment to get you ready to play. This doctor is telling you that, okay, we're going to do all of these treatments. And then we're going to, and then that money is going to come back to you. because if not, you'd have to pay him for that. Well, yeah, basically. Right. Okay.

So $40,000 you got, and in this case, the doctor you're saying was a part of the scheme. Mm-hmm. He already has a scheme going on. Was he connected with Terrence Williams and so how did, what was his scheme? It was many different schemes? He got, but you can look him up. He sexual harassment charges. He literally.

Was doing it. So how did you find this doctor then if he wasn't connected to the tan? From my best friend. Alan? No. Oh. My best friend that I didn't want to tell him. Oh, gotcha, got you.

Was the best friend involved in this game as well? No, the original scheme? So there were two different things is what you said. That's what I'm trying to say. There's all types of schemes going on. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. The NBA hid a lot of players.

Right? There was stuff going on everywhere. me not knowing what's going on, I run it to my friend, but they got it going on over here too. There's several different people defrauding the end. It's so many people doing it. And I literally went to jail,

but I have a real injury. I had a real problem. I had a real serious problem. Okay. And you might not know the answer to this. You were really received treatment and then got reimbursed for that treatment, is what you're saying.

Yes, I really received treatment and got re-en. The other people that are involved in this scheme, I'm not, Glenn, hold on for a say. I want people to know this because this is going to be difficult and it's not going to sound right. Man, we're from some place where you don't tell. All right. And I know that sounds stupid to a lot of people out there. I know that sounds crazy to a lot of people out there. But, you know, some of the other things that we're talking about,

on this podcast that are ingrained. They ingrain that too. It's just difficult to get over it. You know what I mean? So I'm not asking you to breach anything that you grew up by. I'm asking you this. Because in this situation, the comparison of what went on with some other people and what went on with you

is going to be key to whether or not people understand and be able to connect with your story. To your knowledge, was there any other players involved in this? that got legitimate treatment. Because what you're saying is you got legitimate treatment. And then you are like, okay, because the treatment is legitimate, I had a real injury. The money that's coming back, I don't think it's untoward. It's not like I'm saying, hey, I need to go to the chiropractor, or, hey, I got to have a real canal,

or I got a migraine. You're saying, I'm actually getting worked on. So if I get $40,000, I think it's real. To your knowledge, was there any other players that were getting legitimate treatment that were getting actually worked on that were reimbursed by whatever this insurance plan was. Yeah, those other players that were doing it the right way. And they got caught up, they got swept up in this too.

No, I don't know anything about that, but I know for a fact there was multiple of players that got swept up in this, and they subpoenaed them differently. But do you see what I'm saying? What I'm saying is if, so if they're, if what people are saying is, hey, all of these injuries were fake and these guys were getting, we're getting reimbursed for them. If you're saying I had a real injury, I'm saying to your knowledge, were you the only person that had a real injury or were there other people that were actually caught up in the case that had real injuries to? I know for a fact I had a real injury.

I don't know about everybody. You weren't talking to the other people. You were talking to the other people. It wasn't a, it wasn't a scheme of like a plan. You were just going to the doctor. talking to Tony Allen. I wasn't talking to Sebastian Telfare. I wasn't talking to fucking, you know,

I literally just on my own. The only person I was relating to was Alan Anderson. And then when Allen brought Terrence in, that's the time I talked to Terrence. That was it. Since this, have you talked to some of the other players that Van listed on? Only Will. Will's the only person that,

you know, that testified, that, not testified, but Will was the only one that went to trial to. You know, I was the only person I talked to. Everybody else, they told or try to tell or plead it out or told. What happens now? Making sure that I tell my story. What you want people to know?

I want people to know that Glenn Davis is a God-fearing man and just I'm not who you guys think I am. you know, what you guys paint or what they painted the picture, the society, you know, I'm really just a human being going through life. And yes, I do make mistakes, but this is not me. What do you want the NBA and the NBPA to know? What's your message to them? The fact that we might not be superstars. I never made an all-star team.

yeah, I made some money, but I never started. I started a little bit, but your stars, right, and the people that do make the lead thrive, you know, you know, that's good, but we're still here. You know, we're players that didn't, might have not made hundreds of million dollars, but we still got to go back to society. You know, we still got to go back to society

and try to, you know, fit in. And so what I would say is the fact that, like, don't take none of this for granted, like the players and show everybody, like, the same amount of love. If you're going to show one, show it to all. You know, there's so many players like Delante West that needs help. You know, there's players that need help. And I think the NBA being a billion-dollar entity

and the Players Association, that's what they get paid for. need to come and check on these players that are building this lead, that we've got to stop this stigma of what's going on. I went through divorce, injury, death, and no one was there. No one was there. Krista Chan didn't call me, the players association. Ron, they didn't call me. Say, hey, Glenn, even this case happened.

They didn't call me. The Players Association never reached out. They never called me. They never called me. called me until I went to trial. It wasn't even there to help me make a decision for trial. So it's just like we have this ongoing problem and then we're saying we're doing all these things, but we literally just letting these people ride away.

These great athletes that are mentally ill from the world that, you know, the NBA brought upon, right? And yeah, it's our fault too, but, you know, like, we already fighting six feet deep from where we come from. I've already fought to get out the hole. You know, so it's just, it's just like as the game evolves, get more people that are elevating, that can evolve with the game, guys like me, right? You know, guys like that have played that can make a difference and won't sit there so miserable because they're making somebody else different. They're doing something. The NBA needs to, you know, use these players to be able to reach out.

You know what I mean? And so that's what I want. That's what I want. I want the NBA to notice that, hey, there's a mistake here that we've created and we've got to fix it. And I want to be the first guy. You know, to say I'm going to jail for health and my injuries and the things that I've been through is crazy to me. And you maintain that you are 100% innocent.

I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I had an injury. That's where I was coming from. I never wanted to defraud the plan and get money that's not deserved or that doesn't belong to me. That's not it. And so now you run into a system where everything is fucked up and corrupt.

up. And the NBA and the play, they know it. They know it. And now I have to fall in the hole just because, you know, so. So you have an appeal? Have an appeal. Um, starting that process. Um, and I'm just getting my word out. Get, you know, getting my story out, letting people know, like, where I was coming from and, and what I meant and everything, you know, because. What's the, what's the case on appeal before? we let you go like what so the appeal is when the pill if I can get the appeal in and the pill heard um I can get it heard then I can stay out why my appeal process the trial is going so that gives me just more time right to be able to have another case and then get it

reduced or get it thrown out you know depending on the next case depending on the next case um I don't know anything about that racial like how does that work like richards are based are based on like an error that was done in the original trial. So it's not like he gets to redo everything all over again. It's just like if there's certain errors that happen, that's what you appeal on. And if an error is found, then it can either be thrown out or it can be remanded back for another trial. Yeah. And so that's what it is with the process now. We filling out the errands, you know, lawyers, situations, you know.

So, you know, hopefully, you know, did my new lawyer. In this process, hopefully we can make some things happen and I can testify it. Okay. And then that happens. What's the, what's the, when would you have to go away if you were going away, do you know? August 2nd. August 2nd. Mm-hmm.

How are you preparing for that, if that would happen? I'm already in it. I'm in it right now, you know. It's already in me. It's nothing I can't accomplish and do. 85% because it's fair time. If you had to go away, you'd be back. I do a couple drug programs, though.

Do a drug program, do some other type of programs. I have a work release. Get in shape. Get fine as hell. That's what I said. I mean, get fine as hell. Stop playing, bro. You get fine and hell.

That's all I've been thinking about. Ripped abs. Stop playing clean. Stop playing. And getting in the gym. Yeah. Crazy ripped up jail bake. Yeah.

All right, man. We're going to let you go. Before you go, I want to let you know, man. I love you. Yeah, I'm so proud of you, too, man. I appreciate it. I didn't watch you. I'm a little like a lot.

Oh, shit. Hey. Oh, shit. Like, up down the sideways, whatever you need. I'm there for you. But I also keep it all the way gangster, bro. Like, you mean a lot to a lot of people. Let me tell you something real quick.

We're not going to get into the back and forth of what it's like in Baton Rouge. We're going to leave it where he put it. But for the Brandon Basses and the Glenn Davises and the Simone Augustuses and the Tyrus Thomas and all of these people, they mean a lot to us in Baton Rouge because we know what the situation is. Like we know what it takes to dig yourself out of that.

And not everybody shoot up and grow. Not everybody is born 6'8, 6'4'9. Not everybody got what Brandon Simone, what you got and what everyone has, not everyone gets that. A lot of the people that do have it, they get lost by the wayside too. But as you move through the world, I want you to remember that you matter.

that people look at your life and what you've been able to get out of. They look at the final four. They look at your NBA career. They look at how all of that stuff and everybody that helped you, Mr. Temple, all of these people, they look at all of that and they're inspired by you. Whether you know that or not, they're inspired by you. You make them kids in the South and North Van Rouge in the park in Gardea and Sherwood.

You make them think that they don't have to die. So that's a responsibility by you, man, to comport yourself and to continue in your life after basketball to continue to inspire those people, to continue to be that. And that's going to be on you. The only person that can make that decision is you. the only person

and it means something that you could come from there and do that and it don't have to get you down it doesn't, it means something. And I don't know if you know how much it means. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know.

But it does. They see you and it means something. So the responsibility and you didn't done a good job, like your mama might not be off that narcotic if it wasn't for you, if it wasn't for what you could,

the stability that you could provide her. And I know that you've been too loose with giving away money and taking care of people. I know this. I know all of this. What I'm telling you is whether we go inside for a little while

or whether it works out of it, we don't, your life matters to the people where you're from and people everywhere. And we need to see you do good, bro. we need to see you do good. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. And I know that you're a good person.

You got a good heart. All of that. We need to see you do good, man. All right. Appreciate you coming by, brother. Thanks for having me, because... Yeah, man, for sure. All right, Rachel, that's it.

We're like way... I know. That might be the longest podcast we've ever done, but also one of the best. You think so? I don't know. It just depends. I'll tell you what. Maudeau.

Shabal Bowman for president, man. He is, I do like, he is, so I'm... He didn't shy away from anything we asked on, which was great. Anything, but I will say, you know, I would like to have a drink with him because there are sometimes with Red Bowman, there are some things I'm like, you know, I didn't get a chance to talk to him about it, but he does do the most. I love him for it. He does do the most, though.

I think the dramatics could be interesting at times. I think they could be. And, you know, he says Biden's going to win, so... We appreciate it. His optimism. We will. We'll be back Thursday. We'll be back Friday.

The tape on Thursday. We'll be back Friday. For everyone that listened, I appreciate it. And once again, whether you guys fuck with me, love me or hate me, you're really a part of my family.

So, I think I speak for everyone when I say, we're back. We're back on track. Not yet. Got some things we got to do. Not yet.

It's not that easy. All right, but it's a least to start. Take thin caps off. Do not stop learning. I'm Van Leeton Jr. I'm Rachel Lundgren. I'm Rachel Lundgren.