Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Discussing the Acquittal of Isimemen Etute With James Turk

Episode Date: June 7, 2022

Van and Rachel are joined by James Turk, the defense attorney representing Isimemen Etute, who was found not guilty in the beating death of a man he initially believed to be a woman (8:23). Plus, Michael B. Jordan and Lori Harvey breakup (1:07:47), Herschel Walker does press (1:31:39), and an update on ‘Mountain Lion Watch’ (1:36:51). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: James Turk Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Jr. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howe learning is back. Oh, yeah, we are back. We're back. We're refreshed. We're refreshed. We're refreshed.

Rachel is back in the Peptoa Bismol room. Very upset. We're back. Howe learning is back. Look, you guys, me and Rachel are going to do a little catchup. We want to do it after we jump right into the show this week. And I'll tell you why. Today, we have on James Turk, who is the little.

lawyer for E.C. Atute, who is the young man who was just acquitted in Virginia of killing a man named James Smith. You've heard the story. Jury

acquitted a Virginia Tech football player, former Virginia Tech football player who had been accused of failing a man. He says he initially believed from a tender match to be a woman. Rachel, you know the particulars of this one, don't you?

Yes, which particulars, though, are you referring to? How things happened. You've heard the story. Yes. Itute went to Jerry Smith's home. Jerry Smith, who was, I don't know if posing's the right word to use, but also identified as Angie. Uh-huh. Went there.

They had, Angie performed oral sex on E. Am I said that right? EC or EC? EC. EC. On EC. That's his nickname, by the way. His full name is long,

but people I prefer to him as EC. EC, yeah. EC, EC goes back. I get to talks with some friends. His friends are like, hey, I'm familiar with who this person is. This person might not be who you thought they were. And so EC eventually a month later goes back to the apartment of Angie.

And upon that point, learns that in some way, learns that Angie is Jerry Smith, a man. At that point, and I don't want to get into the details too much, but at that point, E.C. believes that Jerry is reaching for something. EC punches him. He falls back. He continues to punch him and runs out of the apartment. And then a couple of days later, the police apprehend him. and then at that point he was charged with a crime against Jerry Smith.

Jerry Smith succumbed to his injuries and eventually passed away. Okay, so two schools of thought here. Prosecution believes that ECB became enraged when he learned that Jerry Smith was, in fact, a man and not Angie René, as he thought that he was. And in his anger, beat him to death. The defense argues that, like Rachel said, during that encounter, Jerry Smith, reach for, wish for something, Isay did not,

Isay Tutte did not know what it was, and he beat him to stop him from reaching for it. He leaves and he passes away. Obviously, this case has exploded throughout social media, and it is something that people are looking at because it asks society a couple of questions. One question it asked society is,

for people that believe that this was a straight-up situation to where, you know, you go find out that someone isn't who you thought they were, obviously we're not going to be living in a place where that gives you the right to murder someone, not even murder someone, but physically assault them in any way. You have another school of thought, to be honest with you,

of people who look at it and they say, and by the way, I'm not just spewing this, you've seen this, that, hey, if you endeavor into that type of activity and behavior, then you got what you deserved. A lot of people feel that way.

There was a lot of celebration from people who didn't even know that the defense raised a self-defense issue in its case. They really had no clue that the acquittal was based off of the jury believe in a self-defense scenario. They think that a precedent was set to where you can't in any way bamboozle or mislead someone about who you are during the sexual encounter or else you can beat the hell out of them to kill them. There are a lot of people who believe that.

Before we got, before we brings James Turk on, who is the lawyer in this case, I want to make, I want to ask for something from the audience. No matter what side you're looking at this on, I want to ask for something on behalf of Rachel, which she might not ask for, but I'm going to ask for her anyway. I'm going to ask for grace because this is a difficult conversation to have. This is not going to be perfect. I can already tell you. it's very difficult.

It's difficult for a couple of reasons. Number one, there's a young black man, an 18-year-old black man involved in this. And obviously, I want to see all 18-year-old black men in America thrive, be safe and be happy and be free. At the same time, my principles and morality denote that I have to stand in allyship with my community, which to me,

my community is the black community and in the black community you have members of the black community that are LGBTQ and so I have to in allyship make sure that we're advancing as people who

help to protect them. Rachel, I'm sure you feel the same way. Yes. So I want to hear what James Turk has to say but I want people to listen and understand that we might not be perfect here. I'm not even sure that we're not dead naming James Smith

and not calling him. Angie, I don't know that much about him. I've looked as I'm trying to figure out as much as I can. Rachel, have you been able to see anything? No, but here's the reason why we don't know that much about him. And I don't even know if I should say him. But the reason we don't know much about Jerry Smith is because Jerry Smith is not here to tell their story. And that's, and that is.

what's so hard to have this conversation with James Turk and to really fully be able to discuss all of this because we only have one side to tell. Right. So in this conversation, it's my goal to get the, and we're having the defense on because I'll tell you why we're having a defense on for anyone that would ask. What the prosecution has asserted is pretty well known. everyone can glean that from any article that you read on it what people don't know is why isaiah tote was acquitted they don't know on what basis the acquittal happened so in order to get

that we needed to have on the gentleman who represented him um enough of the preamble coming up right now is the lawyer for Issaatutte, the ex-Virgini Tech football player who was accused of murder in the killing of Jerry Smith. He is coming up on the other side of this break. Trigger warning for anyone who might be triggered by the conversation. Yo, yeah, yo, thought warriors, can you believe we are coming up on two years of higher learning?

Two years of random van inspired questions. Two years of Big Rache popping off. And most of all, two years of you are amazing thought warriors that keep challenging and inspiring us every single day. That's why we're officially granting the higher learning hang. Exclusively for our L.A. base fans. If you haven't moved out to L.A. yet, don't. Keep the 405 clear. Follow our Higher Learning Instagram page at Higher Learning.

and check out the IG story with full details on how you can link up with us. Y'all know y'all can listen to Higher Learning free only on Spotify, but now you can subscribe to our new Higher Learning YouTube channel. YouTube.com backslash Higher Learning to watch behind the scenes content and more celebrating this special two-year anniversary. Okay, so obviously the headline has grabbed people you've heard about the story. And there's been a lot of conversation on both sides of the conversation, of really, of the topic

about how this could have happened in, in Virginia and with the Virginia Tech, ex-Vaginia Tech football player. You guys have heard about it. Ex-Virginia Tech football player found, I guess you're not found a not guilty. You're acquitted. No, he actually, he was found not guilty. It's found not guilty Okay

I'm not guilty Of murder And it's the same Equiddle of not guilty Same concept Sure What I guess what we're trying to do here On the podcast

Is give people an understanding Of exactly what basis He was found Not guilty on And we have an actual A treat for you guys We have the attorney In the defense

Who is on with us today A gentleman By the name of James Tert. Look, James, there are people who are highly upset with the decision in this case.

That look at the facts of the case as they have been presented, at least in what you can read the article and think how in the world was this young man not convicted of this crime? They feel like it's a hate crime. It's not a hate crime.

It's not a hate crime. he's guilty of a hair crime. Okay, tell me why people are wrong about this. Because people don't understand the facts. And the, I guess the thought behind why it might be a hate crime is because a gay man was killed. Jerry Smith. However, this was not about killing. killing a gay man who happened to engage in a sexual relationship with my client as he posed as a female. My client, EC of Tute, and EC was, you know, barely over the age of 18. He'd just become an adult. And he was out on social media, Tender, looking for some hookups. And he saw on social media, there was a connection between he and Angie Renee on Tender. Angie Renee then reached out to E.C. Atute and said, you know, how about let's get

together and I'll perform oral sex on you. And so EC and one of his friends went over one night. And EC ended up receiving oral sex from a person who was dressed as a female, who had posted pictures as a female on social media sites, on Facebook, on Instagram, and had held himself out as a female by the name of Angie Renee. And there was an Angie Renee, but Jerry Smith had stolen that person's identity and used her photographs and posted as a female and posed as a female. And so EC went over thinking that he was going to engage in a relationship with a female. She was wearing a hoodie.

you couldn't see where, you know, who she was. It was in Jerry Smith's apartment under his conditions, posing as a female, telling EC, you know, I can't show my face. I can't disclose who I am because I'm a doctor, but, you know, drop your pants and I'll perform oral sex on you, which he did. And paid EC, actually paid EC $50. as crazy as that sounds. And then ECI ended up receiving, and, you know, he had his doubts, I guess, to some degree,

because one of his friends said, you know, E.C., that was crazy. You don't know whether that was a female, it could have been, or a male, you know, and he didn't think that it was, and his friends didn't think that it was either. And so about six weeks after this first event, EC had actually blocked Jerry Smith at one point, point, but he talked to some of his friends and some of his friends said, you know, you ought to, you know, this Angie Renee has reached out to me. So Angie Renee tried to connect with another young football player at Virginia Tech. And then he called EC and said, you hooked up with this person. And EC said, yes, I did. And he said, well, you know, what's up with this?

with this Angie Renee. And he said, well, I think it's a female. Posing is a female. But I'll go over and we'll find out. And if it turns out to be a male, I'll simply run out of the apartment. And so that was the plan. And he went over with two other 18-year-old football players, went in the apartment, and met the same way.

met at the door in a completely dark apartment with this person wearing a hoodie, turn their back immediately as he walked in. I mean, this sounds so bizarre, but this is all true. And so EC follows this person into the apartment again. And then the person says, okay, we'll drop your pants. He said, no, I want to, you know, I'm here for intercourse this time. And so the person then turns around and drops their clothing. EC feels around a little bit, said it didn't feel right.

And he had a flashlight on his cell phone, pulled that out, shined the light in the person's face, and he said it was a man. And it was this person, Jerry Smith. And Jerry Smith laughed at EC. And I think Jerry Smith then started freaking out because he had been caught and started reaching for something over towards the side of his bed. EC saw, didn't never saw a weapon or anything, but he was born and raised over in the Virginia Beach area.

His grandmother's been robbed multiple times. He knows his grandmother keeps a gun under the bed, rough neighborhood. EC knows, you know, a lot of gun violence. And, you know, he said, I was certain that this person, this man now was reaching for a gun and was going to kill me. And so EC ended up hitting him. He fell to the floor.

kept reaching for something and EC hit him three more times and then said that that gave him an opportunity to run out of the apartment and he ran out. And two days later, the police, after discovering that Jerry Smith had been killed, there was some video in the hallway of the apartment, a couple of the officers identified a couple of one of the football, players. They ended up bringing him in in the early morning hours and talking to him. And there we were. And so, you know, the police questioned EC about what happened. He was fully cooperative and gave the police, you know, statements about questions that they inquired about. And They never did ask him whether or not he was in fear for his own life.

They never asked him whether or not he was in fear of this person reaching for something. But EC got out of jail a couple days later and told his friends a couple of the football players that this guy kept reaching for something. And he had no idea, but there would later be a knife discovery. over beside the bed. And E.C. had absolutely no way of knowing that a weapon was there in the very location of where Jerry Smith was reaching. So it was a self-defense case. This is not a hate crime. He didn't kill him because he was gay.

He killed him out of defending himself. in circumstances in which he feared for his life. So I know you just mentioned that when he spoke with the police the first time that he did not say that he was in fear of his life. And I'm assuming you're saying that because he did not mention to the police your client in his initial interview that he thought that Jerry Smith was reaching for something. That's right. Correct?

He didn't even mention that. That's correct. He didn't mention it because it wasn't asked by the police. But he did say that he hit him. He didn't say why. Is that what you're saying? In his initial interview, he didn't, he told the police he hit them, but he didn't tell them why he hit them. That is correct.

So you all pled self-defense in this case. My question is, when he punched him for the first time and he was on the floor defenseless, and he initially had, if I'm understanding this, the facts correct, he had two other friends on the outside with him. Why did he continue? Weren't two other friends outside in the hallway? They were outside in the hallway downstairs out of the apartment. Okay. Why did he continue to punch Jerry Smith?

Because it's my understanding that every bone in his face was broken? No, that's an exaggeration. that's not the case. What were the extent of his injuries? He died of blunt force trauma to the face. And there was no weapon used. It was only his fist. And EC said, and what happened, Rachel, was during the altercation,

he said that Jerry Smith had hit at him first. EC said immediately, and well, the first he said he grabbed his crotch before that happened, and then he started reaching for something beside the bed. EC said he hit him one time in order to slow him down or to prevent him from reaching over beside the bed. He did not fall to the ground at that point in time. He fell back on the bed. and then he

E.C. said that he continued to reach for something over beside the bed. And at the same time he swung at him, swung at E.C. E.C. said he hit him again a second time to prevent him

from reaching and grabbing something on the side of the bed. He said he then fell to the ground. He then said when he was on the ground on his back, he continued to reach for something under the bed or beside the bed. And it was pitch black dark. This was in Jerry Smith's bedroom.

He controlled the entire environment. You know, he knew what was there. E.C. couldn't see. Well, he had the flashlight. Well, he had a flashlight on the phone. That's correct. But he said that, you know, that during the, I guess the altercation with the two, you know, his only thought was he was reaching for a gun to shoot me.

That's the only thing that EC said that he kept running through his mind. He's reaching for a gun to shoot me. He said that I hit him once. He fell back. Hit him again. He fell to the floor and he was on his back, but he was still reaching. And it was directly beside the bed.

And he said he continued to reach for something under the bed. and I hit him three quick times, and the medical examiner said those hits were probably within a second, a split second. And then EC immediately says he got up and ran out of the apartment. And I will tell you that what the jury did not hear was this has been going on guys for like, you know, eight to 10 years in the, in the Blacksburg area, where there, I talked to so many other young people who had been victimized by the same guy who would not come forward, who said that they wanted to, they would, if they would come forward and testify if they could remain anonymous, because they had gotten their life back together. They did not want to, for

their name to be disclosed and for them to be ridiculed for having the same thing having happened to them years ago. And so, you know, that was never disclosed as well. So when you say victimized, you mean that Jerry Smith, according to you, according to what you've heard, had a pattern in the history of posing, someone else in order to lure somebody into a sexual encounter. As what you're saying. Posing is Angie Renee with the same name and the same pictures and luring these young students, primarily targeting young black males. So I have another question for you.

Did Jerry Smith have a history of violence in any of those situations? to where he was in any encounter with anyone. And anyone ever said Jerry Smith assaulted me or Jerry Smith reached for something. Was there any reason, based upon the people that you talked to, to believe that he was capable of hurting or killing someone? Well, no, there had been, were there any convictions for violence against him? No. but I can tell you that he repeatedly, or on a number of occasions,

accused people of robbing him, telling the, and describing for the police that it was a young black male. And then the police found that on a couple occasions that had been made up and not actually happened at all. Another instance was eight years ago, a young college student was in his fraternity, and he was very intoxicated to the point that he thought he passed out. This happened eight years ago. He woke up the next morning and said, you know, I got this bizarre feeling, and I can see. see a guy who was performing oral sex on me. Well, one of his roommates or one of his attorney brothers walked by that night and said that he had seen somebody with a hoodie in his room performing oral sex on his friend,

and he thought it was a girl. Well, they reported that to the police. after Jerry Smith, and they ended up getting DNA from that kid's underwear, from saliva. That was eight years ago. Just recently after Jerry Smith had died, they sent in his DNA for comparison. And sure enough, it turned out that he was the one that had, performed oral sex on a boy that essentially had passed out. And the kid said that he'd been drugged.

I guess my question is, you said the jury didn't get to hear that. Did the jury not hear that because it was prejudicial or because it was irrelevant? Because that has no bearing on this particular case. Well, and that's why in Virginia, we have to, you know, when we try cases, we have to comply with the evidentiary rules. and the judge said that, you know, any past instances of similar acts would not be admissible. They're only admissible under some limited circumstances. And also, I had wanted a lot of, well, some of these other young people that this had happened to, to come in under anonymity, so their identity would not be disclosed.

and they would feel free to talk about this to a judge and our jury. But none of them wanted to, the judge ruled against the anonymity request. So they would have to have come in and had their name disclosed potentially and identified. And none of them wanted to do that. So here's the brass text to me. trans and gay Americans are the victims of irrational violence from people outside of their community pretty regularly the numbers are are sobering staggering and shocking and the violence that happens to them there are people who feel like that this case was the case of someone

who entered into a relationship, a casual sexual relationship with someone who they thought was a woman, found out that this person wasn't a woman, got with their friends, went back to this person's house, and then beat them the death. Okay? That's the way the story comes across. The reason why I asked you if,

one second, the reason why I asked you if there was a history of violence was because he came I got to be honest with you, James. I'm tap dancing around it. It doesn't seem to make sense to me. I'm not in any way relitigating the case. I know you had a job to do. It doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense that you take three people, you go back to the house to confront the gentleman, and if you find out that it was, in fact, a man, you just go, I'm going to run out. It seems to me, logically, and I'm not in any way trying to, indict the young man again. But it seems to me that you go over there with two people

because you're pissed about it. He was angry. Angry and embarrassed. And you go back over there because you're expecting some sort of confrontation. That confrontation ends in somebody being killed. Maybe he did laugh. I'm not saying that the fact that the knife was there is immaterial. It just seems like if I look at this from the other view,

This is easily a situation where you're in my house. You're mad because you found out about me. You could easily argue that James Smith would have been defending himself by even reaching for the knife because he's in a tense and hostile situation with someone that he may or may not deceived, not relitigated in that part. But it seems as if reaching for the knife, if it were a knife or a gun, when somebody's in your crib when it's when it's when it's hostile. could have been James Smith defending himself. Do you see that view of things? Yeah, I can see that view. But again, you know, you're dealing with a young 18-year-old young man.

You just turned 18. You got three young kids that are 18 years old who go over there. And again, you know, the jury listened to all of them. And I don't think they questioned. the truth and veracity of any of these young men. You know, I think they were all completely believable in what they said. They're all young, naive kids.

You know, and there's a lot of evidence that certainly that would support the fact that a young man's brain is certainly underdeveloped at that point. at that stage. And again, E.C. Atute is never ever been so much as called down on the football field for being too

rough. He has no criminal history. He has no violence whatsoever in his history. He's an exceptional young man. He is.

Very soft-spoken. and, again, not a violent bone in his body. And, you know, again, I'll go back to what I said before. You know, you're in an environment that is, you know, and the evidence was that this guy kept his apartment pitch black dark. And he told these people that came into his environment that, you know, I have to keep it this way because I don't want you to find out who I am or see who I am. Sounding like a girl.

And we heard Jerry Smith talk a couple of times as he was posing as Angie and certainly sounded like a female. And so, you know, again, it's young 18-year-old boy. boys in an apartment, which is completely pitch black dark, they can't see anything. It's the environment that Jerry Smith is set up saying that, you know, my name is Angie Renee. I'm a doctor. I can't disclose who I am. I don't want anybody to see my face and ruin my job. James, I have, well, I'll just ask one question. It's tough to piggyback on what Van is saying is because I know one of the things that the defense argued was that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence on behalf of the prosecution. And that's mainly because Jerry Smith isn't here to testify. We don't have Jerry Smith's side of the story.

We don't have Jerry Smith's word. We only have the word of your client. And just to add to what you were saying about him going into the dark apartment, he willingly walked into a dark apartment. You know, like he put himself in that situation, not once but twice. My question to you, is there's a lot of violence within the LGBT-Q-plus community. And this case, and the reason I think that this ruffles a lot of feathers, and rightfully so, is because this case could possibly be setting a precedent to more violence being, like if I'm a part of this community, how do I feel protected and okay when I'm listening to the facts of this case?

or the circumstances of this case, and then your client is found not guilty. What kind of precedence is this setting in regards to violence against specifically the transgender community? But you're not targeting. I don't see this as a targeting of the transgender community or anybody. Well, let me pose this question to you. let's say, for example, that Jerry Smith, posing as Angie Renee, had invited a, let's say, a lesbian into his apartment. And so a lesbian goes into the apartment, expecting to have a relationship with a female Angie Renee.

And let's say that he ends up penetrating her. All right? And then so you have a female that then is strong and she ends up killing Jerry Smith. It's still a crime against the transgender community. Are we even talking? I know. Who's going to say that, you know, you tell me, who's going to say that, that, you know, he didn't deserve what he got because he posed as a, he was posing.

as a female and violated a female. Well, so, okay. So, and I think we're getting to the heart of things. Before we go to that, I have a question for you, just really quick. Sure. Was Jerry Smith, a man who lived his life as Jerry Smith and had an alter ego as Andrene, only when it came to luring someone into a sexual encounter? Or was Jerry Smith, was Jerry Smith, a trans-American that lived their life?

life, her life as Angie Renee every single day. No, Jerry Smith was a gay man. Okay. And then who you're saying had an alter ego as Angie Renee whenever they wanted to lose as a female and used a ruse to a ruse to target primarily young black male. Okay. That was the preferred gender. Okay.

So let me ask you this. Do you, in it, in it of itself, do you feel like Jerry Smith was a sexual predator? I do. And I told the jury that. I do. Is there a part of you that thinks that anything that happened to Jerry Smith, or do you think that the jury might have thought? I'm asking you to get into people's mind.

I know this is not a technical legal question. That anything that might have happened to Jerry Smith was warranted based upon the lifestyle that Jerry Smith was living. No. No, I do not. No, and that would be wrong for targeting someone simply because this had happened to them and you're after them because of them being a gay man. man. Again, that was not the argument. You know, the argument was that this was a set of

circumstances in which ECATUTA found it necessary to rely on self-defense. Out of curiosity, what was the composition of the jury? There were four men and eight women. interesting yeah we had we had and then there was one alternate that was a female we had

one black female and that was the only African American that we had to Rachel's point do you see how members as we do this it's prime month do you see how members of the

LGBTQ community would feel less safe surrounding the verdict of this because they would feel like it sets a precedent for someone to be harmed if in fact they are in a relationship with someone who they didn't, they weren't sure of their gender

because we see this all the time. We see people who don't disclose the gender to somebody else. They find out that, well, excuse me, don't disclose their birth gender to someone else. they find out they get violent and then somebody ends up dead. During that act, they find out and end up, and again. Well, not even during the act, even after the act, right? So it's not even during the act.

It's even after the act. It's like if you have sex with someone or if you're with someone or sometimes they have sex with the person and they full well know what's going on with the person. but the societal pressure and the scolding that they get in the after effect of it drives them to such irrational anger that they get violent. That's what's referred to as the gay panic defense. We don't have that in Virginia anymore. And that was not argued in this case. And that's referring to, you know, you engage in a relationship with somebody, and then you find out during that relationship that that may be somebody who is not the sex that you thought they were. And you react based on that alone and end up harming that person, killing that person.

but that's not the facts under these circumstances. And I see what you're saying. I do. And, you know, I would hope that under these circumstances, we also might learn that, that, you know, it's not right to engage in these ruses either and, you know, target, young people, you know, because I will tell you, these young boy, these young football players of

Virginia Tech were on tender, and you know, you know how that tender works, their interest was solely in straight females. And Jerry, and Jerry Smith was posing as at Angie Renee, and the interest of Angie Renee was only with white, or excuse not white, but with males. So, you know, that's not right, guys. It's not. It almost sounds like a warning, which is why, like, the way you just almost phrased that almost sounded like,

maybe you better think twice about fooling people. I think that's just what's so, unsettling about this because you could every with everything you're saying you could equally say well he got paid for getting a sexual act like maybe you don't do that maybe you don't go into a dark place with someone that you don't know like you could do a lot of that back and forth and I think that's what's really hard for me to to accept with what you're saying here yeah and to be honest I understand that as well I mean there's responsibility for yourself and not putting yourself in, you know, that type of environment also.

And I get that, Rachel. I mean, that makes perfect sense as well. However, you know, again, every single case is looked at specifically in the environment that, you know, E.C. Tutte was in and the way that he saw the circumstances that particular evening. And I think rightfully so, you know, and the judge. jury found that it was reasonable for him to fear for his own life. Yeah. I disagree with the jury here.

I'll just be honest with you. First of all, I in no way, there's, there are few things in life that are more precious to me than the young black male. I understand the unique. challenges of growing up in America as a young black man. I'm from Bat Rouge, Louisiana. I say this on every podcast. Okay?

I understand the challenges that exist being preyed upon, being fetishized being all of these things. I get it. I understand. The reason why I say and I'm not sure, I got to be honest, it's I don't.

For me, the Pandora's box that's being open is okay, you shouldn't you shouldn't endeavor into these rules. Fine. You should be honest about everything. You should. You should be honest about everything.

When you're trying to have sex with someone and you're trying to do whatever with somebody, you should be honest. You shouldn't say that you play for a specific sports team or that you're rich. You shouldn't lie in any way or deceive anyone in any way to get sex from them. You should say, hey, this is what I mean.

You shouldn't lie and tell someone that you have a big dick and then get them into a situation. you shouldn't tell any lies, right? The question is what ends up happening is which lies warrant a violent response and which lies don't? Like which things are we going to allow manhood or toxic masculinity to denote? You can kill somebody for it or you can even into a situation where someone could be killed for it.

And I think before we get to the self-defense part of it, which is really hard for me to reconcile, I'll be honest with you. We get to a situation where you shouldn't do that. Okay, you shouldn't do that. So then what? You shouldn't do that. And what does that mean? There are a lot of things that you shouldn't do.

The question is, when is it warranted to have a response be, I'm going to hurt you? Is it warranted to have a response be I'm going to hurt you if a gay man or a gay woman hits on you and you don't like it? is it warranted to have a response if you see somebody from far off and you go, oh, I want this person, I go up and you start talking to them, you turn around, and then you realize it's not who you thought it was. When is your view of masculinity or your sense of masculinity, when does that warrant you using violence?

And before we even get to the self-defense part of it, that's why I don't think whether or not Jerry Smith should have been doing what he did, is material here, he definitely shouldn't have been. And if you ask me whether or not he was a, like a sexual predator, to be honest with you, if everything that you say is true, then yeah, he was. I'm like seriously, absolutely. Yeah, he was. If everything that you say is 100% true, then he absolutely was.

It's just a really delicate thing in trying to decide if he deserved to die. And it's hard for him. a lot of people. And it would be amazing if there could be a huge conversation involving this young man to where we discuss how this, like Rachel said, isn't going to be used as precedent to attack and hurt people that are either closeted, right, and gay and not out, or that are trans and are interrelationships with people who maybe they thought they'd knew what was up or that they haven't told the people yet. But if we give any oxygen to the notion that you can kill them, like, as a community,

we're going to lose because there's so much violence that's happening already, it just seems like that's a non-starter. And so it's hard for me. I know more about this case now that you've been on our show than I did before. And I do think there are levels to it and aspects to it that people are probably unaware of. But James, I got to admit, this is a fucking tough one, man. This is a bitter pill to swallow. It's hard.

It's absolutely hard. It seems as if even a manslaughter charge or something where somebody would have to pay some penalty because there was a life lost would be in order. But I don't know. It's hard for me. And I'm playing dime store lawyer here. I'm playing dime store juror here. But it seems as if in this situation, he went over to the house.

He asked the question. He didn't like the response. And then he says he was reaching for something. I don't know what he's reaching for. I got to beat him to death. What would you say to somebody like me? Again, I would say that nobody deserves to die. However, you know, again, under the circumstances, you know, it's tough being able to really comprehend how fast your mind has to work when you're in a dark environment.

dark environment, in somebody else's environment, in their bedroom. And I know you've gone up there, you know, yourself voluntarily. I understand that. And to find out, you know, whether or not this person was a man or a woman. But, you know, as the jury said, you know, or as the jury heard, you know, the intent from these boys, young boys, was to simply find out he was going to run out. Now, again, you know, had Jerry Smith probably looked at him and said, listen, you know, what I did to you is wrong and, you know, I apologize. You know, would EC have probably just run out at that point? I would probably say so. Again, you know, maybe you need to hear from him. Maybe you need to see the same person that 12 people from Montgomery County saw. Maybe so.

That brings me to my next question is, I think what's also troubling for me is when I hear the story that was laid out, you know, that you laid out for us, not to the jury because we weren't privy to that. There seems to be a lack of remorse because it was reported that, and yes, you could, I do want you to answer this. It was reported that after he punched him, he left and your client left. And Jerry Smith was making bubbling and gurgling sounds. And he still left with those two people for two days until he was approached. He didn't turn himself in. He was approached by the police based on video that they saw. So my question is, what does your client have remorse?

Because he didn't seem to initiate, didn't call and say, hey, this is what happened. This is what I did. this person may be struggling. They were making these noises. It sounded like they were dying when I left their apartment. And has your client apologized to Jerry Smith's family? I know they were in court. He has.

And he, yes. I apologized for EC. E.C. apologized as well. He feels terrible. I mean, you know, he is responsible for the death of another human being. And he does feel bad. but I will tell you that again, in his view, it was a life or death situation in which he literally had three, four or five seconds in order to make a decision based on what he thought was about to happen. And the reason he did not, yes, he did, you know, he punched him quick.

and then he said that that was my sign to run out. Then I felt, you know, safe enough to where I could run out. And he did not go back. He did not call the police. And when the police picked him up during the questioning process, you know, they asked EC repeatedly, what do you think happened? Well, you know, I'm sure he, you know, probably got, you know, probably needed to be iced up.

That's what EC described. I thought he needed, you know, probably had a few bruises on his face. He had no idea he had hurt, hurt Jerry Smith to the extent that he did. How big of a man is easier today? He weighed about right around 200 pounds at that point in time. He's 6-2. Jerry Smith was 6-1, weighed about 150, 5-160. And he was 6, I think about 6-1.

again, but dressed up, you know, in a hoodie. So it's and, and, you know, so E.C. had no idea, you know, the size or the strength of the person that he was dealing with. The only thing he knew was that. So Jerry Smith was, so Jerry Smith was 6.1. Yeah, by the 6.1, I think that's. He had gone to his house and he thought he was hook it up. with a woman who was 6-1. He thought, yes, he did.

Correct. James, let me tell you why I appreciate you coming on the show. Like immensely. I appreciate you coming on the show because this is just not easy. This is a tough one, man. I know it is. I know it's tough. And, you know, it's tough on me as well.

And I will tell you, though, that again, maybe hearing from ECI at some point in time on your show may be a good idea. I would love to hear from him. He is the most likable young 18-year-old man I have ever met. I don't mind telling you that my 37 years of practice, I don't know that I've ever liked a client more than ECATUTA. He comes from an exceptionally great family. They're all very religious.

They dropped him off at school. Mom and dad did. Makes sense. You know, when he was living his dream of going to Virginia Tech to play football, and they told him, be careful about alcohol, drugs, and girls. They never told him that, you know, son, you really also might want to stay away from websites where, you know, males might be posing as females and might be. seek you out and try to take advantage of you.

So, you know, I absolutely love him. I love him, he and his family. You know, he stayed at my house many times during the process of, you know, having hearings. And he's just an exceptional young man. And again, I think the jury saw that in him as well. That's, that's, this is similar to what I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you, I'm assuming you came on to the case after the initial police interview. Is that correct assumption?

Yes, about two days later, Rachel. Why did you want to take this case knowing the stakes, knowing that it could be controversial? I mean, well, I've been practicing. for 37 years. I've handled probably literally hundreds of murder cases. We had capital murder in Virginia until recently when they did away with the death penalty. I've handled more than 70 capital murder cases. So, you know, they're challenging, but I went and met with him in the jail, I think the second day that he was locked up. And there's something about him, Rachel, man.

I mean, he's just a likable young man. He's so soft-spoken. He is so well-grounded in where he has at least come from up to this point in time. and I just saw a lot of really, really good in this young man. And this is a tragic ending for the Smiths and for Jerry Smith. And I understand I don't think that this is any sign of the LGBT community. and they have to be fearful at this point. I don't think that's the case at all.

I don't think that was the verdict whatsoever. I don't think that's what it stands for. And I just think this is one of those tragic circumstances, which, you know, could have been avoided and should have been avoided on a number of different sides. and but I will tell you that, you know, E.C. Atute, I don't want him back in Blacksburg. I don't think he needs to be at Virginia Tech again. He needs to go elsewhere and try to pick up his life where he's left off as well. So, again, I hope this is not any kind of sign or a signal and anybody, you know, treats it like that. It's just one of those circumstances in which I think a jury looked strictly at the self-defense issue. And was this a set of circumstances where, you know, a 40-year-old man, Jerry Smith, who sought out, you know, these young boys, you know, is there, and it was all in his environment, you know, could this have been avoided?

And, you know, do they think he was reaching for a knife? Yes, I think they did. They did. think that he did. And I think that they thought that he would have harmed ECATUTTA if he'd had that opportunity. I mean, why not think that? Because he's harmed all these young kids for so long and never, and he's never had to answer for that. And I don't think he gave, you know, a rat's ass about, you know, the harm that he did to any of them. But the jury didn't hear that part. No, they did not. They did not. James Sturt. Thank you.

I appreciate you coming on higher learning today, man. Complicated case, but one that we have to talk about. We really appreciate you coming on the show. Seriously, man. Thank you. Thank you, both. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, Taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

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Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Mark. Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. That was James Turk. What are your thoughts? James Turk seems like a very nice guy. I don't believe it.

I don't. There were certain questions that I asked because I was trying to prove my point to talk about all this after. I specifically asked him when he came on to the case because I wanted to. to point out that it was after the interview that he gave to that his client gave to the police where he never mentioned that he was in fear, where he never mentioned that he was reaching for something. Never. Never explained why he punched. Jerry Smith. Never did. That's why I asked him when he came on in the case. Also was interested in the composition of the jury. I was also very interested in because James Turk was doing his job, right? His job is to defend his client, even though the case is over, it cannot be reopened. It's done. His job is still to represent his client. And obviously, you can tell from that interview that he really believes his client is a good man. And I'm not saying that outside of these circumstances, he is not. But I asked him specifically about some of the things that he was saying that were to cause reasonable doubt in the mind of a jurors, right? And let's just pretend our audience are jurors, right?

So he's saying certain things that he said to the jury to make them think, well, if that's true, then this, then that makes my defense true, right? He's trying to cause doubt as to that it was anything outside of, that it was something else outside of manslaughter, which I believe was the charge or second degree murder maybe. He brought up the fact that, and you had such an excellent question, he brought up the fact that Jerry Smith has done this before to other people. people. And I specifically said, and he said that the jury didn't hear it. And I asked him, why didn't the jury hear it? I said, was it because it was prejudicial or irrelevant? Because it was one of the two. And he goes into the rules of evidence, but basically what he was saying is because it's prejudicial. It has absolutely no bearing on the case. If a jury heard that he has prayed on, and I'm using air quotes for that, on other people, they couldn't get that out of their minds. And they immediately would

have looked at him as this is what he does, and they would have seen EC as a victim. This is an isolated case. And then you pointed out, has Jerry Smith been violent before? And the answer was no. And the answer was no. And the way these facts play out, it looks like he was extremely embarrassed. He comes from a religious family. He didn't want this to get out.

He has a certain reputation from his religion and as a football player. and let's be honest, a black man to uphold. And he went back with his friends to basically stand up for himself, is what it seems. Went back into the dark apartment the same way he did before. And it seems like he attacked Jerry Smith. That's how it comes across to me. Did he necessarily mean to kill him? I don't think so.

No. I doubt, I sincerely doubt. I don't think so. Not necessarily matters. Not that necessarily matters. I sincerely doubt that he meant to kill him. But his intention was to scare. Was to confront him.

And confront him. I really, really believe that. Right. So he got his boys and he got his boys and he, he mobbed up with his boys. They went back over. I don't want to say mobbed up. He got his boys. They got together.

So yo, fam, that's a man. They go back over there. They go back over there. He goes to confront him. In my opinion, he learns what he has to learn. Jerry Smith laughs. Yeah, he probably did. Like, he said that.

Jerry Smith, Jerry Smith laughs. And when he laughs, he hits him. He hits him. Just the whole thing, it's such a cluster fuck. Number one, we're saying Isay Tute is young and naive. He had to be. Goes over there, six foot one woman, gives him. him $50, gives him $50 to perform oral sex on him.

Gives him $50. Like, we don't live in a world where women pay to suck your dick. Right. That's not the world we live in. Right. Okay. Like, there's a small sliver of men who can say that that's ever happened to them. That's not the world that we live in.

That we live in the opposite world. All right. So it's a case that everyone is using as a mascot for how it is that they're feeling with these issues. People are using this case as a mascot for the fact that, hey, you can kill somebody from this community and nobody cares. People are using this case as, hey, this is what should happen to people who do this. And the question is to have a responsible, safe, and life-affirming community and society, how should we? look at it. What should we do? If I was, if I said Tute was in front

of me right now, what would I say to him? Like, you know what I mean? Like, how do I talk to it? Like, how do I talk to a young black man who, who, like I said, I want to see these these gentlemen go on and live great, amazing, productive, insanely gratifying lives. But I don't want to be one of the OGs that facilitates them

living for decades and decades just hurting people hurting people because of the hurt that has been inflicted on our community and because I can't condone that it's just tough sometimes in a spot to be in

but we spoke to James hopefully we'll get a chance to speak to Isay but I mean now you just made me nervous what do you say to him you know like there's that's that's going to be a tough conversation. I don't think I, you can't have this, you can't talk to him in the same way that we just talk to James. And I don't know. I think black man, a black man, black man, you might be able to have a

more intimate and productive conversation than I could. Right. Just being honest. Okay. Let's take a break. One more break to reset the rest of the show. We're already pretty deep in. Um, but we're going to give you guys a little bit more. Um, let's take a little break to kind of, let's kind of, let's, as a little pilot cleanser in the show. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile

services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. services not available in all areas. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, Guseucumabab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy. and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Rach, I saw you out representing the A.K.A. He's on the, on the, um... You know what? As somebody, as somebody beautifully pointed out in the comments, deltas look good in any color, okay?

Yeah, sure they do. They look good in any color. And I can proudly wear pink. I'm about to do another red carpet. And guess what? I got three shades of pink on, okay? Wow. I can't help it that the color is in season.

I still rock it, and I will throw this up every single time. I will throw up the Delta sign. Yeah. Every time. Eternal Ivy, huh? Wow. Wow. People don't even know what that means.

I do know what that means. I know you know. But the people watching the show, but the people watching the show aren't going to know what that means. That is the height of Divine Nine Dissons right there. That is the height of Divine Nine Dissus, the AKA is saying they throw it out there.

I love, you know why I love this? I always love this. I loved it because. It's so cultural. This is the height. To me, these organizations are the height of black culture. They're part of it. Oh, absolutely.

I mean, think about how we've literally celebrated centennials with these organizations. Of course. Of course. Speaking of things that didn't quite go right. I'm sad, man. Why? Well, there is a lot to be sad about. It's a lot to be sad about.

But it was cool to be sad about some shit that doesn't really matter. Mike and Lori broke up, man. that's what did it shock you did it come because you know we don't really cover couples news here but apparently that one really rocked you it did man um um um Mike people are split on it Mike and Lori broke up I wanted Mike and Lori to make it I did too I don't know what making it is because we always say we want last it means you want them to last but last how long way in a happy way What denotes lasting? I mean that they don't break up and start dating other people.

Okay. Well, then no one makes it. Well, what do you mean? They get married and maybe they never marry, never divorce and marry again until death do us. How many times does that happen? That don't be happening, man. Okay. Well, at the moment, my parents are still together for 44 years in August?

Mine ain't. I know. Let's do a survey. Oh, Donnie, obviously your parents stayed together for the long haul. No. Donnie said, no. They did? They didn't.

Yeah, they definitely divorced. My mom remarried and then she got divorced twice. Don't. Why did I know that? Why did I not know that? I don't know either. I did not know that? Trudy, did your parents stay together?

My parents are still together. Okay, good. the two, so we're 50%. Time breaker, Brian's parents are. Why is, why would the fuck with Brian? Why would Brian? Okay, ultimate, ultimate time breakers. We could never really knew her dad.

Aha. So, so, so obviously. Take that part out. No, leave it. Like, she barely knew it. Like, so why would that be in there? Like, nah, this is us. So what I'm saying is, look, 50%.

So making it is so subjective that I don't know why we even call it making it. Well, you're right. But to say it doesn't happen isn't true. It happens. It just seems to be doesn't happen as often. Yeah, right. Okay. So people say that people say the swirlings, swirlings, the rumors are that Mike proposed and that Lori said no.

Wait, was it a proposal? Is that what they want? That's what people are saying. I don't know that this is true, by the way. I heard that she wanted a, he wanted, they were on different pages as far as where they wanted to take the relationship. He wanted something more serious. He wanted to go more serious.

She did not. I did not, I've never heard the word proposal. People were saying that. Did you hear, Trudy, am I wrong about this? Did you not hear proposal? I didn't hear proposal, but I really wouldn't be surprised. Like, I could deduce that that's what it was. You know, in that report.

I guess I, to me, it seems rare, and maybe I'm wrong on this, that people propose without really knowing if you're on the same page with your partner. It's hard for me to believe that after a year, you guys haven't had discussions about wanting to be together and maybe how soon you want to take that. I would imagine that that had come up. So I don't think it was a proposal. I just think that maybe they had this conversation one too many times that they realize they are really not on the same page and they want different things. So it's like right people wrong time. I mean, how many times can you? You you go through your life and say, I dated somebody before it didn't work out.

And we were just in the wrong place in our life. And we had met in a different time. Maybe it would have worked. Also, they just broke up. They could be back together next week. So a lot of this stuff is speculation. A lot of this stuff is speculation. Okay.

There was a lot of talk that he was getting up to propose to her. People are saying Michael B. Jordan breaks up with Lori Harvard after she refused marriage proposal. So a lot of this shit is just talk. We should be kind and honest. we should be kind, emotionally kind, to both of these actual human beings, not to say things that aren't real, so that's on me. But a lot of people are saying that it was, let's say, though, that he wanted to be more serious and she didn't want to be more serious,

and that's why they broke up. That's what I'm hearing. That's what you're hearing. He's 35, she's 25. I know that I was in a completely different place in my life at 25 versus 35. So, you know, I could see this being a real issue for them. They could want a different things in life right now. Well, what is he supposed to do?

What is he supposed to do? He's supposed to wait for her? This is a black man who wants a commitment, who wants a family, who wants a life. And what is she supposed to do? Who wants something real? It's sacrifice her own happiness just to be, just to rush into a marriage. And tired of black men being asked to wait for their happiness. Ain't nobody out here popping on the scene going to make us wait for that family,

for that child, for that absolute house on the hill that we deserve. As black men, we're going to get what we deserve. I can't even do this. We deserve rings. Well, what he doesn't want is someone. We deserve rings. What he doesn't want is someone. who says yes just to say yes only for it to wait like you don't want to waste each other's time

you don't want her to beat saying yes just because she knows that's what you want and you don't want to stay in this relationship in this way because you know that's what she wants like you at some point you have to look out for yourself in your own happiness otherwise you're just going to be it's just going to be detrimental to the relationship as a whole so can you can you can you can are you which camp are you in if someone proposes to you and you refuse proposal can y'all stay together? I don't know if you can come back to that. Did Melanie and Derwin stay together? Yeah, they did. I don't know if you're talking about. That's a fictional show. Trudy. Trudy. That is really, help me out.

Trudy. That is real life. Why are we talking about what happened with Melanie and Darwin? I fucking love that show. I love that show so much. You couldn't tell me Melanie and Derwin that I've never, I've never gone hard for a couple like I have. There's one show recently. I said that I haven't felt this way. Sunflowers. Some beans. Since sunbeams.

I haven't felt this way. What couple was, I feel like I said that on this podcast. There's another show that did it to me like that, like Melanie and Derwin. Oh, couples that you wanted to say together? Yeah, a fictional couple that I never felt this strongly for. Mickey and Mallory Knox? I'm sorry, who? Mickey and Mallory.

I bet you wanted them to stay together. The mice? No, Mickey and Mallory. Mickey and Mallory. Oh, wait. I heard Mickey and Minnie for some reason. I have no idea who you're talking about. Oh, Issa, Issa and Lawrence.

I went, that's that. I never felt as strongly for another couple until Issa and Lawrence. What camp am I in? I don't know if you can come back because why are you telling me no if you see a future with me? Just wear the ring, you know, until we decide, you know, to make it happen. Or like, be like Carrie and wear it around your neck or tuck it in a job. drawer, you know what I mean? But

I think it's tough. I think like if the answer is not right now, then maybe. But if the answer is no, if the answer is no, you probably got a fine. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of marriage, did you see this

Disney employee who Disneyland Paris who jumped in the way of somebody getting proposed to? Did you see this? Yeah, it's, it's yes. What the is happening. Why?

Why? Like, I don't, like, I'm, just went away from saying violence isn't the answer in any situation, but he should at least stuck his leg out and tripped this motherfucker. Who the fuck? What are you doing? Are you Mr. Disney? Like, what's the deal? That's exactly. He acts like they were

rioting or, I don't know, like messing up the area. He literally was getting down on one knee. What was the problem? So apparently this guy had asked permission from an employee before getting on the platform at Cinderella's Castle. This was in Disneyland Paris

to pop the question. He did it. And then this guy jumped out like fucking Daryl Revis and intercepted the ring box. All right. Intercepted the ring box. And did it with some fucking swag

too. Like you really shitting on me, fam? Like you really shitting on me. Yeah. Like you really shitting on me. It's weird. And Disney says we regret how this was handled. We have apologized and to the couple involved and offer to make it right.

What does it make it right mean? Because first of all, I'm sure proposals happen all the time at Disneyland. Like, this is ridiculous. What should they do? First of all, they should pay for their wedding. Okay. You messed up the proposal, so let's get the wedding right.

At Disneyland. Sure, they're clearly fans of Disney. otherwise why else would you propose there they're fans at Disney maybe have one of the characters in the wedding they're fans right so we want to make this very Disney which character though because you got to be careful with that like you there's certain characters you wouldn't want your wedding Mickey Mickey Mickey could officiate but you don't want Donald Donald's still your bitch at the wedding do you think Donald Duck would or Daffey would no no no no no Daffy is not Disney oh a Looney Tune my bad yeah Daptee whatever I corrected I got it

You need it. Donald would definitely steal your bitch. Like Donald will steal your bitch at the wedding. Mickey is cool. Mickey is whipped as far as many is concerned. They have sex, by the way. Because we ask? No, because it's important that people know that those characters have sex.

Okay. Anyways, that is what they should do. They should have the wedding. They should pay for it. They should be able to use the castle. They couldn't use the platform. Fine. Give us the whole castle.

I want all of the characters attending it. She should write. away, they should ride away in a horse and carriage, Cinderella's care, the whole thing. Yeah, I agree. I agree. The Disneyland of their choosing. Yeah, yeah.

The apology's not going to cut it. You don't think Mickey and Minnie Mouse have sex? Honestly, Van, I can say this with my whole chest. That thought has never crossed my mind. Okay. Here's the thing. I think it's important to talk about. All right?

I think it's important. You're giving me the racial side. Do you know why? Because I guarantee you we would talk about whether or not they were having sex if it was Mickey and Jake Mouse. If it was

Mickey and Brian Mouse and they were in a relationship, people would be like, oh, why are we injecting sex into the characters? But if it's Mickey and Minnie, they could just be together and not ever touch, Mickey never grabbed their ass. No, we just not.

They just stayed out and be friends forever. But if it was the same sex couple, if it was Mickey and fucking Jameson Mouse, people would be like, why are we giving the kid sex? Nah, they're in a relationship, they fuck. Get over it. You're selling your kid's sex. If you

think that having two guy or two female mice being sex, you're giving your kid sex. Stop giving your kid sex. Demand that Mickey and Minnie no longer have a relationship. Demand it. I'm all for them breaking up. That's fine. Doesn't mean anything to me. As long as

as they stay characters in Disneyland. All right. So a message to all of the thought warriors out there. Get off Joe Biden's nuts. Go off his dick. All right. We had Igor on to talk about gun violence and there were people that were mad

that we didn't talk about all of the stuff that Joe Biden has done for guns. I talked to, I reached out to Igor about this because I saw some of the discourse about this. Some people hit me up like, we don't know what we're talking about because it's not that Joe Biden has done nothing. for gun violence.

And Igor didn't say that, by the way. No, no, no. We said Igor was critical of the Biden administration. Right. All right. So I asked him. I said, hey, Igor, what's up? And I sent him what people were saying.

He said, these are good initial steps. This is from the guy who devotes his life to gun violence. These are good initial steps, but they are certainly a far cry from what he both promised and could be doing. And to get him to do like stuff. like this was pulling teeth, happy to discuss further. And that's what he echoed. You guys, stop being dick riders, all right? It's okay to have political thought that is dissenting from within your own party.

No, I don't want people to vote for Republicans. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let somebody walk the fuck all over me. And while we're talking about that, neither are a lot of other black people because there has been a quiet exodus. of black staffers from the Biden administration amongst frustration. Not just about the people who left, but about some of the people who are still there. At least 21 black staffers have left the White House since late last year or are planning to leave soon.

Some of those who remain say it's no wonder why. They describe a work environment with little support from their superiors and fewer chances for promotion. The departures have been so pronounced, according to one current and former White House official, some black aides have adopted a term for them. Black's it. Yo, that's nuts.

That's nuts. That's some Candace Owens type shit. The first big exit came in December when Kamala Harris, a senior advisor and chief of staff, supposed person Simone Sanders, announced that she was living to the gig at MSNBC. And so now you have more aides along the side. by law you have public engagement eight

Curse Smith Gender Policy 8 8 Calicia Disources figures I don't know how to say your name Linda A team Digital Engagement Edge A lot of people have left

So question And the White House is by the way Pushback on this A White House official push back on these concerns saying that around 14% of current right house staffers identifies black In line with national proportions

In line with national proportions So it's okay It's okay. We're not trying to do better. The president is incredibly proud to have built what continues to be the most diverse White House staff in history. He is committed to continuing historic president representation for black staff and all communities. Okay. Said by the Black White House press secretary.

That's a fact. Black White House secretary. She's in the 14 percent. Black lady vice president. Other blacks that are involved. in decision making. What do you make of this story, Rachel? What do you make of the idea that black Americans,

some black Americans are unhappy with President Biden, which I'm seeing more in my friend groups and circles? What do you make of the idea that we shouldn't criticize publicly, President Biden? Because if we do so, then that means we are opening up our country, for the empire led by Darth Vader to take over. I think it's silly to say that you can't, you can't criticize, right?

Because then we're no better than the other side. You have to hold people accountable for the things that they said that they were going to do in office, you know, because we're the people who actually voted you in, because we have certain expectations of things that you're going to do or at least attempt to do. So I think it's wrong to be able to say, oh, you can't say anything for fear of what the other side may do with that. That's not right.

Because that goes both ways. But when I see all these people, the blacks it from the White House under the current administration, it's not even to me just what we're seeing or the lack thereof from the administration. I'm like, what's happening behind these closed doors? Because usually it's like if you see something wrong, you want to stay around to help fix it. But it must be so bad of what we're not seeing internally that you don't even want to stay to do better. I mean, these are huge positions. These are White House positions.

I mean, you have a chief of staff on this list. Simone Sanders left it to go to MSNBC. I mean, this is big, these are big positions in addition to the others I didn't even list. It's 21, you guys, 21. So far, to me, it just speaks to what is happening. that we're not seeing that you don't even want to tough it out so you can do better for black people under this administration. It's got to be really bad.

Black's it. Look, I think that there's a way to criticize people that are on your own team. There's a way to criticize black people, right? There's a way to criticize black people that are, number one, I do believe that, see, I'm about to contradict myself here. go ahead do it i am sometimes anti-criticizing prominent black people not criticizing i don't like to see prominent black people have totally they know that BLM yeah to to have these uh shut up to have

these fights publicly because and you know what and by the way i'm glad you bring up BLM i'm glad you bring up BLM thank you rachel for sparking that in my brain why on earth would you be more willing to criticize BLM. This is true. Then you are to criticize Joe Biden. Why on earth would you not sneeze at criticizing Black Lives Matter for things you believe that they're doing improperly or shadily? But you for some reason don't want us to criticize the president, Joe Biden, for things

that we believe he should be doing or is doing. wrong. What's the difference? Why are y'all so okay with criticizing actual black people, but when it comes to the white man that's up there that's supposed to be doing his thing on your behalf, you're so afraid of that. We can't have it that way. If anything, it should be the other way. You should be willing to accept a little bit more bullshit from your community than you are from the people that say they're representing your community even though we know these are the people

that locked your uncle in them up. I'm sorry, man. We're going to have a conversation here and the things that President Biden has done right, we are going to talk about them. But we're not letting these goddamn Democrats off the hook because they've been promising us that we're going to graduate

into full American citizenship for fucking 50 or 60 years, and it doesn't seem like it's happening. Right. So we got to keep it all the way funky and real. You're right. God damn it, man. And by the way, it wasn't just us,

the uninformed host of higher learning. The two talking heads that don't know shit. Igor said it. It's his life's work. He said it on the podcast. Y'all be here what the fuck y'all want to hear. Solace Jackles. All right.

I'm telling you, man. Look, Kyle Rittenhouse. He's having some problems, man. Didn't, I wish we could roll back the tape on this. Didn't I predict there would be problems? And you said, no. It was exactly the other way around. Are we sure?

Yes. Oh, oh, I said he would find his people. Right. Like, it was, I said, And I believe he has. He just can't get into college. I believe he has. He said that he is going to be going to Texas A&M.

University Texas A&M said, hell no. Real quick. Nah, he ain't coming here. He has not been admitted as a student this summer or fall. They said two seasons. You know how boys the men have four years? seasons of loneliness. Testin said,

we got two seasons of no written house, of written houselessness. He corrected himself on Twitter saying that he's going to Blinn College. Do you know what Blinn College is famous for? Cam Newton.

Bam Bam! Cam Newton went to Blinn College before he went to Auburn. If you don't remember, Cam Newton went to Florida, but there was some laptop issues. at Florida. And then after,

he had problems with his laptop. He had problems with his laptop at Florida. He was like, I don't want to go here anymore. And they were like, God, we think you're right. And so then he goes to Blinn College, and they become amazing. And then he goes on to Auburn and runs all over LSU en route to a national championship. So he'll be going to blend.

Blent is a two-year public college. I will say this. If Kyle Rittenhouse performs well at the two years, I do think after that, you'll probably see more schools willing to take choler in house. He's got to be low-key. He's got to shut the hell up, right? You can't be posing, wearing shirts,

and talking about I'm watching the Johnny Debt trial, and now I'm going to sue. You got to chill out because people don't want that type of attention. But again, he can find his people. He can go to Liberty. Liberty. Liberty would take them two seconds. Know what the problem with Liberty is?

It's mad niggas that play basketball and other sports for Liberty. They might not be fucking with that shit. Like Malik Willis gotts like that They went to Liberty And they might be like, yo I'm not going out to take the field If you have Kyle Rittenhouse here You know I mean Liberty is getting kind of good at sports

Like he could go to Liberty in What division are they competing in? They D1 I mean not I'm sorry not division What conference? Oh I'm not sure Probably like the Jesus conference Um

Mass shootings are all the range right now You know what? No No no Can't do it Can't do it Can't do it Just know that there was a Republican Senator, a Republican Senate candidate who blamed black people for the gun violence.

I'm starting to believe that those people don't, I don't even know if they actually really believe what they're saying. They're just like hitting check points. Ah, black people gang violence. Check. Black people blame for the shootings that are happening. Check. That's going to, that's going to get me another vote.

That's good. It's ridiculous. But yeah, I don't want to talk about it. Did you see, I don't know if you saw this. I was wondering what you think about this. Did you, did you see that? killer Mike had Herschel Walker on the show? I just saw a picture of it.

So I was not going to click. I listened to it. I listened to Killer Mike have Herschel Walker on the show. A lot of people were mad at Mike for having Herschel Walker on the show. If Herschel Walker wanted to come on higher learning, would you have them on the show? Yes. Exactly. I would have him on too.

Donnie, wouldn't you want to have Herschel Walker on the show? Oh, yeah. He's a candidate for a Senate. Like, of course. It's a big race. People are ridiculous. But I think they had more. Now, if we had Herschel Walker on the show,

how would you approach the interview? It's a hostile interview. I'm treating it like if it was a hostile witness. Right. You know, I would be respectful. I try to always be that in interviews, but I'm sure at one point it's going to take a turn, especially if it's illogical.

Yeah, well, him and Herschel, it wasn't really hot. It was pretty, it was very, it was super cordial. And a lot of people feel like Mike wasn't as combative with Herschel as he should have been, considering that Herschel is a Trump act I like. And there was some talk about it. What did you think? You watch the whole thing or listen to it, whatever. What did you think?

Did you think that he went too easy on him? Yeah, I do. But I don't think that I'm in any position to say that. I think that a lot of people, they accuse me. that, I think the important thing is that this is what I think. I think that everyone, especially people who have microphones, myself included, we need to understand what it is that we're serving when we're doing an interview. We had an interview earlier on that it was very important to me that I didn't come off

as hostile in the interview, but it was also very important that I asked the questions that were in my mind. And sometimes the questions that are in my mind aren't the questions going to be in the listeners mind, right? And you don't want to feign something. You don't want to virtue signal your way through an interview that you're supposed to be serving your audience. You don't want to serve yourself. But in this particular case, with what I feel like Herschel Walker represents and what I feel like

Hershal Walk, when I say represents, I don't just mean the Republicans and the right. Okay. I feel like Hersch Walker represents rank political ignorance. like absolute political ignorance, hero worship at the highest degree someone who I believe to be and I haven't heard anything different

wholly unqualified to be a U.S. senator or maybe from what we're looking at overqualified to compare to some of these other people but I would be interested in what compelled him to run like all of these things and these are stuff that they touched on

but you know Mike they also talked about his football career and you know all of that stuff stuff that I have absolutely no fucking desire so if that's what people were upset about I get I we're not trying to have a buddy buddy it's strictly a political conversation

you're running this is important this is a state that was on our minds you know just last year last last year so Mike said to let you guys know, Mike said that he's having Raphael Warnock on the show. Speaking of that, I have tried to get Killer Mike who is an actual friend. Didn't you say that's your friend of mine?

Yeah. I've tried to get Killer Mike on every single interview platform I've ever had. Like I tried to get him on the Red Pill. Do you know, I'd be honest with you. I tried to get Killer Mike on the Red Pill podcast when I was doing the Red Pill podcast from TMZ. And he turned you down again? He couldn't do it. He could never really do it, right?

And then one day I pop up and I'm in the office and they go, we got a guest on TMZ Live today. Oh, God. In studio guest on TMZ Live today. And it's killer Mike. And I was like, I'm a, I felt totally fucking played. And you should have. And I'm not the type of nigger to be like,

yo, you didn't come to my birthday party. That I'm never like that. I'm never like, yo, these niggas didn't come to my birthday party. Fuck them. I'm never like that because I'm not necessarily coming to your birthday party. But I felt like, oh, we would like to have Killer Mike here on higher learning. I asked him, he said he would do it. It just depends on the schedule.

It's always a schedule thing. He made time to come in and be on TMZ Live. Maybe it's you. I love it. I love you, Mike. Maybe it's me. Maybe Mike don't want the smizzo, the mesquite. maybe Mike don't want them escape

there's not really going to be that by smoke I love the brother but um and I appreciate you know what he does and I appreciate the fact that me and him don't agree on a whole bunch of fucking shit but eventually I got to get on the podcast man so we can talk about all of this goddamn shit uh there's one there's one there's there's one there's one thing that we have to do before we leave no no no no I got to go Johnny I see this

Jerry Capuos? Yes. Yeah. Give it to me one more time, Donnie, if you know what I. We have to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because it's not stopping. Let me tell you some. I saw Mount Lion on the rundown and I didn't even read it. Didn't even. I'm not participating. Right. You guys think that you're safe from Mount Lion. You guys think that you're saved.

not safe. The latest shocking Mount Lion related headline Mount Lion found trapped inside classroom at Pescadero High School taken to the Oakland Zoo. The district said it's not

unheard of for a mountain lion to come close to campus, but never inside the class. The Mountain Lion has a thirst for knowledge. It's trying to learn more specifically about it to pray. The commotion happened. 8.30 on a Wednesday, the students were set to start their second to the last day of the school year.

I walked into the hallway. Everyone's frantic. Student Mario Hernandez says, I asked, what's going on? And they were like, just getting to the classroom. It's kind of scary when you think about everything else is going on. It was right before school. The door had been left open as a student had hesitant and the mountain lion went inside. They had to call California Department of Fish and Wildlife.

They was able to get the Mountain Lion. Mount Lion is how it should be said, out of the classroom. The animal was skinny, it seemed healthy. It was taken to the Oakland Zoo where officials determined Melmont Lion is six to eight months old, a baby one, and weighed about 24 and a half pounds. Badly fractured tooth, poor little bastard. It eventually needs to be taken out that won't happen until he's recovered a bit. He's too young to survive on his own, so he'll be placed at an accredited zoo where he will make a full recovery. shout out to them.

They're saying right now that Cougar videos and sightings in Utah and in the West are increasing. They're going up. Wow. I don't think I've ever been more right about anything in my entire fucking life than the dangerous of Mount Lion. But we get it. Okay.

You have put the fear in me. I don't hike like I used to. Van, we get it. Nobody's denying you at this point. You're killing me. You're killing me. And the fact that every time we tell one of these stories, it chips away from me. It like takes something from me.

It really does. Now let me tell you got something right now. I'm sometimes hard on the fans of this show. I hope you guys all know that I love you so dearly. I really do. It's all love. It really is. But let me tell you one reason why I really love you guys.

It's like family. We bicker. but at the end of the day, on Reddit, on Facebook, everywhere. We're family. I'm your big brother that sometimes gets on your nerves. And a lot of times things that you guys say, I do take it to heart. I do take it to heart and try to change it. But one reason why I love you guys is because whether or not you guys love me, hate me,

or indifferent, or indifferent, if there is Mount Lion content or headline, you automatically send it to me. like the brave true thought warriors that you are. We're going to continue on this mission to let people know that if you have to pack a stick or a small flare gun, when you're doing whatever you're doing, pack it. Because Donnie, tell them who's out there. It's out there.

People got enough things to be worried and scared about it. I don't know why you want to create a segment that does that again. We got so many things to be on the lookout for. to protect ourselves from, and you just add them the mountain lions to it. That's very serious question of the week is the question about the proposal. I will ask it again. Rachel, just so we have it clean for social. Rachel, if you propose to someone and they say no, can you stay with them?

I don't think so. You don't think so. Trudy? Hell no. Trudy, let me ask you a question. Yes. Just for Trudy Because we're going to bring back

Trudy's corner next week Can you see yourself Ever proposing to a man? Fuck no Hell to the 911 My friend just proposed To her now fiancé My friend just proposed

To her now fiance So new series question I want a graphic Where we scratched through the old one New serious question Is it Is there something wrong With a woman

Proposing to a man No not at all. Rachel says there's nothing wrong with it. Why not Rachel? Ladies, you can't have it both ways. Like we want to say we want to get rid of these traditional ideals that have been placed in our society and all of this. That's a traditional thing saying it's got to be the man who has to do this.

I get you might there. You can have a preference. Your preference might be for the man to do it. But you can't say it's wrong if women. men decided to do it. My friend, my friend just proposed to her boyfriend, so now fiancee. Now, I haven't confirmed as to why she decided to do that, but my speculation is because she's been proposed to twice by men, and it did not work out, and they both ended in public and tragic ways. And so I think she was like, I know what I want. I know this is my

person. I'm going to take control, and I'm going to do this my way. And so she proposed. And I love it. I love it. So, yes. You say no. Why? It's the patriarchy in me.

I'm going to just be honest. Two things I would not propose to a man and I'm not taking the trash out. And it just like is what it is. Like I don't know right wrong or indifferent. It is my truth. And I'm a stand on it. It's your preference. It's your preference.

It's your preference. That's fine. That's fine. I'm glad you acknowledge the patriarchy that exists women. Okay. We have to go, you guys. Take the deep caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathin Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. We back. We back. We back.