Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Disney v. DeSantis, Plus Allen Hughes on ’Dear Mama’ and His Filmmaking Career

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay react to Disney’s decision to sue Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (14:59), before welcoming director Allen Hughes to discuss FX’s ‘Dear Mama’ and his complicated relationship with Tupac (35:31). Plus, WWE gets sued over racist scripts (1:06:21). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Allen Hughes Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, so boys. What is up? I learned is on is I, Van Lacey, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn, Lindsay. Rachel. Man. It's like, you know, it's like a lot of stuff going on, you know what I mean?

I saw a big George former last time. The movie? Yeah, I saw the movie last. I feel like I haven't seen a lot of talk about it. I know it's out there. I didn't realize it was dropping this soon. but what, how was it? And who's the guy who plays him?

Chris Davis. Okay. I've seen him from Atlanta. He beat the shit out of Earn that time. Okay. Remember him? He was like, yo,

get out the cars and beat this. Nah, he plays, he plays, he plays Big George Forman. Look, I'm going to be honest with you guys about

Big George for him. But be honest with you about the movie. I was almost certain the movie was going to be trash. It's not getting good attention. I'll be honest with you. I liked it.

Good. I'm happy to hear that. Is it sort of a paint-by-numbers biopic? Yeah, but at the end of the movie, I don't know if you guys know, but at the end of the movie, George Foreman knocks out Michael Moore and becomes the oldest heavyweight champion

of all time that happened in real life. It's not spoiling, okay? Yeah, yeah. But by the end of the movie, you cared so much about this story, you cared about this character, you cared about these people. And when you see what George Foreman went through

and how he became who he was, and how who he was was was selling cut off from the rest of the world, philandering, and how he became the sort of boxing patriarch that he is now. It was a very inspiring story. So I really enjoyed

Big George Foreman as a movie. Okay? I like it. Is that the name of the movie? Yeah, Big George Foreman. You know what I saw that was really good? I had to do it for a jacket. What, nigger? we'll address that later on in the show.

Jury duty. Oh, from, um. Have you seen people talking about this? Yeah, like the comedy show? Yeah, so it's on Amazon and the freebie, Amazon freebie, and it's, I'm trying to figure out. It's not a comedy show. It's posed as, it's a comedy, but it's posed as a documentary.

and everybody's an actor except for this one guy. And he thinks he's filming, the cameras are there in the courtroom because they're doing a docu series on being a juror. So he's a real person, but everybody else is an actor. And James Marston's the biggest star in it. And this could have gone incredibly wrong

or incredibly right, which it did. And it's so funny because it's improv, the whole thing. They had scenarios, but they didn't have any dialogue in their scripts. And so it's just, I wasn't expecting it to be that and it's really good. So you would enjoy it.

Check out 30 minutes. 30 minutes shots. James Marsden is in it? The guy doesn't know who James Marston is? No, he plays himself. So it's an L.A. jury. It's an L.A. jury.

So it makes sense to see a celebrity and it's funny because people are like, oh, can I take a picture with you? And then the guy, the guy who's the real person is like, you look familiar, but I don't know. And he goes, oh, I was in this, this and this. He goes, oh, you were in Sonic, right? And he goes, I heard that was really bad.

Yeah. And like he's just, because he does, you know, he's just a regular person. Anyways, it's really, really good. It's funny. You should check it out. Well, this is what I'll say is I'll watch it, but I have problems accepting it at first. Because? Because when I think of jury duty, I don't think of shows like that.

I think of the weasel Polly Shore and the movie Jury Duty for back in the day Wee's the Juice He is the Whee So

Do you remember Polly Shore I know who he is You don't remember Paul You don't remember the Weas I've never seen it No it's the Weasel is not a movie The Weasel was his His persona

He's the Whizzo You don't remember him Is the Weasel? No Paulie Shore is the whizzo. No. Have you ever been on the jury? Fuck that.

Donnie, do you remember? Have you ever been on a jury? You avoid it. You avoid jury, dude. I went there for one time and they didn't pick me. I got a day off from TMZ. Did you say something outrageous? No, I was there and they just didn't pick me.

It was like, look at this nigga. Nah, he's going to vote no. Get them out of here. We need to send this guy to jail. But so you don't have any respect for Pauli Shore. I didn't say that I wasn't ever into the Polly Shore movies

Donnie did you ever I think I've seen one of them You never saw son-in-law No Biodome In the Army now There's a caveman movie No

Encino man Yeah That's not a Well you know You guys are I keep forgetting You guys are a lot younger So you guys don't

You guys never even saw When he was on MTV Or whatever So I know who he is Yeah, it's okay, it's okay. You guys look, I'm old. Fuck it.

We got to get into the podcast. We're going to dispense with the pleasure and cheese a little bit here because a lot of sad shit happening. This is just a start right now. Real quick before we get into the first topic, we're just going to say goodbye to a couple of people. Harry Belafonte.

Die. Age 96. A worthy life, a useful life. A life of service. sacrifice and excellence. He's an Egot. Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony, got his home in New York

in the 1950s. Recorded a bunch of different songs. Deo, Calypso movement. He was part of that. But really became a useful servant of this planet by being a part

of the movement to establish the rights of black people here in this country. He was a tireless fighter for humanity. Yeah, and not in just this country. I mean, the work that he was doing in Africa, he was, you know, big on the anti-apartheid movement.

One of the, not creators, but the people who were bringing, why can I think of words right now? One of the guys who was getting, people together for We Are the World. He did live aid. You know, as Van already said, he was a huge humanitarian. And when I

saw that he passed away, I knew that I knew he was older. I knew he was in his 90s. But that was the first thought. Like something you said at the beginning. I was like, gosh, but what a life he lived. He did so much. It was such a trailblazer.

Even with that 1950s, I mean, Deo is used so much. That's a song from the 50s and people sing it. No, it's not. Six foot, seven foot, eight foot, bunch. Come on. Why are you looking at me?

Like, it's not. I'm not looking at it. It's like, it's like, you know, he helped end part time. But shit, Dale? No, I wasn't done. I was going through it, but I'm just saying how influential a song from the 50s was even into present day. I'm just showing his influence. I wasn't even

done with that. Whatever. Now I'm not, I'm not even to continue anymore. I'm just here trying to honor the life of Harry Belafonte. That's all I'm trying to do. Just trying to show his reach, just trying to show his importance, how involved he was with politics, foreign policy, how outspoken he was in such a fearless way. I mean, he had such great mentors. You talked about Dr. Martin Luther King, but Paul Robeson was who, you know, mentored him. And so it's just giving to the civil rights movement, giving money towards it, behind the scenes, in front, just so much that he was involved in and think, and I hate that sometimes you don't talk about it

until they pass away. But as he passed and you're remembering all these things he's done, it's just like, what a, what a beautiful man. It was interesting to see the tributes come in because so many different generations of activists were inspired and close to him. I saw Jess, I saw Cap, I saw people a little bit older, you know, the Cornell West and people like that,

of the world. He, whatever age group, movement, cultural time was pushing forward or change whoever you were, he made sure to tap in with you so that he could be a resource, share information,

help guide you to be able to accomplish your goals. He was always right there, always accessible to people that are out there trying to make the world of their place. Rest in peace, Harry Belafonte. this morning, just this morning, Jerry Springer passed away. 79 years old, Jerry Springer. Yeah.

Of course, he was the host of the Jerry Springer show. You guys know the Jerry Springer show. And listen, we're not going to sit here and act like the Jerry Springer show was some type of high art, amazing cultural expression. But what I will say about the life of Jerry Springer is this. I happen to know a little bit about its life. covered him for a history channel show. That's coming out pretty soon. That is an incredible story

about how Jerry Springer went, being the mayor of a major American city, having a scandal, telling the truth and being open about his scandal, being reelected, trying to get higher government office, not succeeding, but then pivoting in his life

to being icon. and noteworthy somewhere else. Say what you want about the Jerry Springer show. Jerry Springer show did not highlight the best of anybody. That's not what it was about. It was about mindless fund in the middle of the day and a whole generation knows what it is. But the life of Jerry Springer himself,

I'm not saying that he cured cancer or invented the polio vaccine, but it's a life of a lot of perseverance. and a shrewd cultural operator. It really is. There are a lot of lessons in there about how to start over, about how to take chances

and all of that stuff. So shout out to Jerry Springer. That was really nice, man. You know, that's crazy. No, I just, I'm listening to you, talk about how he picked himself up. But then I, in my mind, I just kept thinking, as a white man,

as a white man, as a white man. Jesus, crows. I couldn't stop. I was like, who are we talking about here? I'm not saying he didn't have a life of controversy. And I'm not even, I'm very interested in this history channel thing that you did because I don't, I don't even really know all of that about him. But I'm like, sure, yeah, yeah.

He picked himself as a way. All right. I'm saying, look, I get it. I was impressed with some of the things that Jerry Springer. Now, you know, I'm not saying the guy wasn't a fucking saint. he got the scandal was that he What was the scandal? He bought some pussy and paid for it with the check.

A government check? I don't know if it was a government check, but he used the check to solicit a prostitute or a sex worker, whatever. However you say it, that's the right way. But he, and yeah, so he got in trouble. And then he just came out, he was honest.

It's going to make one day for really, really funny movie. It really will. What city? Cincinnati. Oh, okay, okay. So like a major American city. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like Cincinnati, it's going to make for a really, really, really funny movie one day, just kind of everything that Jerry Springer went on, that went on in his life. Look, somebody else died. what

what's the what what what the I'm just saying you know somebody else passed away uh

Carolyn Bryant she is Carolyn Brian she was the lady who lied on Emmett Till she died she was 88 years old passed away

in West Lake Louisiana Calcus you perish over there. Shout to Calcutta. What was my response in the group chat? You said you felt nothing. I feel nothing. But there's nothing to feel. No, not at all.

Do you know if, you know, a people, she's 88. Long life. Suffered absolutely zero. Long life she has. Zero consequences. So if anything, the lesson

you know what oh fuck it what am I missing words from if anything the lesson for her life is that you can fuck over a nigger in any kind of way that you want

and you can die quietly and peacefully at your home surrounded by your grandchildren and that's that and for everybody that's celebrating the fact that she died I don't see why she won She lived in Damien 90.

Mm-hmm. And Matills killed when he was 14 years old. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. On the other side of this, the big deal of today, the mouse versus the moron. Disney is taking on Ron DeSantis.

Next on higher learning. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the five.

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. All right. Disney is suitable. Disney is sodom. Fuck you, Ron DeSantis. Lawsuit claims that a political effort is hurting business

for a Walt Disney World Resort in Florida. You ever been down there, Rachel, to the Walt Disney World? You've been down there? I have. I have been a couple of times. You like to go down there and have a good time. I've never been. You never been at Disney World? We should go.

Only to Disney World. It's an experience. I haven't been in a really, long time. Wrong. I definitely have been in the Disney World. What am I talking about?

Are you okay? Yeah. I'm not tripping. I definitely have the Disney World. What am I doing? So it's been a while. It's what you're saying.

It's been a long time. It's been a long time. I've definitely been down here. But yeah, look, I don't know if you guys are aware of what's going on out there in higher learning land. But that's a big fight

happened between Ron and Sanis and how this started was the putrid and discussing. thing don't say gay bill that was passed up before. Disney was on Ron DeSantis's ass about it a little bit. Now, this happened at first when Bob Chapic was the CEO of Disney and he came out in support of the LGBT community, which Disney has always tried to support, maybe not in their movies, but in their theme parks, they have Gay Day at Disneyland. they like to be seen as an ally.

So with the bill's first coming, Bob Chapic, who was criticized by not moving fast enough on it at first, eventually positioned himself and the company as staunch critics, enemies of what Florida was doing. Now Bob Iger is back, and it's the same thing.

Disney is trying to use kind of the leverage that it has to shame Florida. Now in response to that, DeSantis, are you aware of what DeSantis has been doing, Rachel? Yes. Yes. Would you tell the people what he's been doing in response to it, please? I'm just talking about my fucking answer.

Okay. So what DeSantis did was basically he tried to figure out how he could use his power to take power away from Disney. So there's a board or a district there. that governs Disney. And so what he did was he restructured that district and shut them down and then started his own district

called the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District. And he appointed the five-member oversight board before those members were named through entities that were controlled by Disney. So they oversaw the area and all of that. So now they create a they, DeSantis created a new board. The board has been picked by DeSantis, so they have power over Disney.

But what happened was before there was the change in the old district and the new district created by DeSantis, they voted Disney and the original board had an agreement. And when the new district came in, I hope this is all making sense, the new district came in, they said that that agreement was invalid. and the agreement was to keep Disney in control of who was on the board and the same rights that they had under the original district. So when the new board came in, they were like, no, this agreement is not valid.

And we didn't have notice and all of these different things. And at that point, Disney sued them. Right. So when Disney first came to Central Florida back in the day, they were like, hey, you know, we don't want you guys to have to wait for us to approve stuff so you can do the stuff that you need to do. So hey, this little area, y'all just take

this little area. Y'all can make the area, do whatever you want there, make up your own little rules about the stuff that you need to do to be able to move the economics forward. And DeSantis was like, well, if you're fucking with me, I don't want you to have that area anymore. We'll take it back and then we'll do whatever we want, which is like put a prisoner or whatever. To see, a problem

that Disneyland in L.A. has, and Anaheim has is that they pop their fucking goddamn theme park up and then they didn't have any control about what went on around the thing park. So because they didn't have any control about what went on around the theme park,

that means that like people put up a whole bunch of cheat motels and people, you know, fucking run a freeway through your shit on the other side. They don't have very much control about how they can expand. They don't have very much control about

how the area around the park looks. Now, if you go to Disneyland, it was fine. But when Disney was moving to Florida, they wanted to have more control of not just the park itself, but if they needed more land for the park, the businesses that were going to be around the park, all of that stuff.

And so they had a little fight from going on down there. Ron DeSantis said, fuck it. He said, fuck it to them. And he's mad. Disney's suing. They're saying that there's been a political effort from Ron to Sanchez, to make the mouse look bad, to sully the nose of Mickey.

Okay? They say that DeSantis is jeopardizing its economic future in the region and violating its constitutional rights of free speech. Because Disney says, as a corporation, they have free speech, and they have the right to say anything that they want about the don't say gay bill, and they can say it as long as they want. want and there's nothing that Ron DeSantis should be able to do about it. Okay?

Going back and forth with this, a lot of this four years. Rachel, your thoughts on the whole thing. I think this is bad for DeSantis. Like, DeSantis gets a lot of attention for the extreme measures that he takes and what he's implementing in the state of Florida. But nationwide, this is assuming that he is going to announce his presidential run for 2024. nationwide what he's doing, I don't think, will be well received.

And it's these things like this where he's using his government power to, you know, trump something that a corporation is doing or to penalize a corporation is doesn't favor well, I believe, with voters outside of this small group in Florida. And even in Florida, I think he's going to lose people with this. Because one of the things that that handpicked, board that he had that is now the new district that wants to run, you know, the area that Disney's in, they're talking about raising the taxes for businesses. And when they had their board meeting, they listened to small business owners complain about the fact that taxes may be raised under this

new district under DeSantis. I think he keeps doing too many things and focusing so much on social issues and getting caught up in that that he's really putting the nail in his coffin when it comes to this 2024, presidential run. If he loses this case and Disney beats him, it's going to make him look even worse. So I just think that this is,

DeSantis putting his foot in his mouth, and I think this looks really, really bad for him. He should have stopped while he was ahead. I don't think he ever thought Disney would sue. This is Bob Iger. Bob Iger. Bob Iger.

You know what I thought about? What? Swimming pools. Okay. Swimming pools. I'm ready to go. Ready to go on the ride. Are you ready to go on the ride?

We should talk about this. Like whenever I'm about to fucking just be a blowhard, it's like, okay, Rachel's ready for the ride. She knows it. I'll tell you why I thought about swimming please. Okay, I want to everyone to understand what Disney means to Florida, period, but Central Florida specifically. Okay.

So a $75.2 billion in annual income in terms of economic impact for Central Florida. I say it again. $75.2 billion annual economic impact for Central Florida. This, okay. 463,000 jobs. $5.8 billion

in additional tax revenue. Now, I'm not saying that the park generates all that. But the business is around, the park. The hotels around the park, the interest that the park draws. There's a little thing park movement there in Central Florida where there's Universal Studios. There's a couple of other like off-brand parks and stuff like that.

All of that exists because Walt Disney World was first. And with about 65,000 to 70,000 direct employees there, they're one of the biggest employers in Florida. Let me tell you why I thought about swimming pools. There's a great book that people should read. It's called The Son of Us. What Racism costs everyone and how we can prosper

together. The book is by Heather McGee. There's a part in this book that was fascinated to me, fascinating to me. Real quick, I made the ride short. So in the 20s and the 30s, maybe not the 20s or 30s, maybe it was the 30s or 40s and the 50s, but anyway, in the earlier part of the last century, there was this sort of nationwide initiative to build these amazing swimming pools, these palatial, big, almost bath inspired public swimming pools. And they were going to be everywhere. And a lot of them were built. And communities would have places, not like regular public pools, but communities would have these like really super and supreme,

big pools like you would see in Europe and stuff and it was happening. Everything, right? Heather talks about this in the book. These were public works. So like in Baton Rouge, where I'm from, we have Brett. Baton Rouge Park and Recreations. Or Baton Rouge Recreation. Baton Rouge Recreation, whatever.

Gotcha. So we have Brett League. You play basketball, whatever. Brett Park. Every park is a Brett Park, whatever. Like, so Brett would build this stuff. You know, that's state and city money. So After a while, you know, these parks were being built. And just the people listening to my voice,

do you think that black people were allowed to go swimming these parks? No. They were either explicitly told or intimated to these big, fancy swimming pools aren't for you guys. You can't go to these parks. Don't go there. You can't go. Okay.

After a while, do you know what black people said? Well, we're paying our tax dollars for these parks to be built and these swimming pools to be built and we can't go there and swim it's bullshit. This is why this reminds me of this. Rather than

let black people swim in their parks do you know what they did? No. They filled the motherfuckers up with dirt. They got rid of them. They stopped it wholesale across the nation in all types of different communities.

Not only did they stop it, but things outside of the parks, like some of the parks had zoos. One place in Alabama filled up the swimming pool with dirt and sold all the fucking animals. When was this? This was in the 50s and the 60s,

rather than share what they have with people who they deemed to be undesirable, they'll sabotage it all. And so when I'm looking at Ron DeSantis, who is so hell-bent on criminalizing being gay in Florida, on putting some sort of stigma,

suppression, oppression, on being gay in Florida, that he is, willing to piss off one of the biggest revenue drivers in the entire state. $75 billion,

half a million jobs, almost $6 billion in revenue for the state, he's filling up his swimming pool. He's filling up his swimming pool rather than understanding that what he's

doing is discriminatory and anti-American. But don't say gay bill is indefensible. It's indefensible for myriad reasons.

But he is so hell bent on not sharing, not progressing, not moving forward that he would rather put dirt in his own swimming pool than let somebody who's LGBTQ swimming in it with.

And so, like when I was saying about them, I'm like, yo, the pathology that exists, this is real. This is what's happening down there. It's totally irrational. Absolutely.

It makes absolutely zero sense. From a governing standpoint for the governor of a state, it's bonkers. My question is, do the people like it? No. You say they don't.

Florida may. Look outside of Florida. This is the man who's potentially, if he wants to stay the governor of Florida, I'm sure he can't. We're talking about him in the context of possibly weeks away from announcing that he's going to be running in 2024. This, everything that you just said is why I said it's his downfall. He's gone too far. He's drinking the Kool-Aid. He's listening to Floridians, praise him.

He's surrounding himself with those type of people. And he's not in tune with the rest of the country. People don't want this. They don't want somebody. who's going to use government power to shut corporations down, which is kind of anti-Republican? You're using it like, it's, I don't, I don't think people want this.

I really, really, not, I take that back. It's not faint. People don't want this. Well, we'll see how it affects. He's looking, he's looking like a crazy bastard is what he's looking. Like, we'll see how it affects. We'll see if it affects him. But I don't know.

I just thought about, you know, read back in the day. about places in the South that could have benefited from all types of New Deal initiatives and stuff like that but when they realized that it was going to help black farmers they went, no!

We would rather be poor than have a nigger eat. You know what I see? When I see, the don't say gay bill is so wrong but you're willing to go to the messages and fuck up the money for so many people in for Disney

is Disney pays their employees around $18 or $19 an hour. They're one of the highest hourly employee employees in the state. I can see if Disney was wrong. If Disney was like fucking pollute the state toxic waste, you know what I mean?

Making everybody ride. It's a small world. You know, all of that, doing something that was wrong because if they did that, I would be against this. That ride's weird. Sometimes it could be weirdly soothing if you've got the right drugs in you. But they're not. He's going 40 more. Okay, Tucker Carlson is back.

Put dirt and got on goddamn pool. Turc Carlson is back. Donnie played. Tucker, Tucker, Tucker isn't another fucking world. Donnie plate. Good evening. It's Tucker Carlson. One of the first things you realize when you step outside the noise for a few days is how many genuinely nice people there are in this country, kind and decent

people, people who really care, about what's true and a bunch of hilarious people also, a lot of those. It's got to be the majority of the population, even now. So that's heartening. The other thing you notice when you take a little time off is how unbelievably stupid most of the debates you see on television are. They're completely irrelevant. They mean nothing.

In five years, we won't even remember that we had them. Trust me, as someone who's participated. And yet at the same time, and this is the amazing thing, the undeniably big topics, the ones that will define our future. That's enough. Yaku Ross and wrestling are on Twitter. I already watch that bitch.

I'm sorry, guys. If you want to see it, what is it like two minutes or something like that, he's talking about what he's going to do. He's being very cryptic and very just broad in what he's talking. He doesn't address specifically. Specifically what happened in box.

Delusional? Delusional in the sense of like, I mean, he at one point is like, I know I worked for them. But it's like the things that you're saying that you're realizing that you're stepping away from the noise and how things should be,

you did not contribute to that in any way with your programming at all. And people like weren't coming and having these certain debates. That's not what it was, that's not the type of show that you had. I watched it and I was like, huh, that's not the message

I thought that he would have when he decided. to speak to everyone. And he wasn't cryptic about I'll see you soon. So we know he's coming to something. Yeah. At some type of platform soon. All right.

We're going to be quick on this because I don't give him too much of a fuck, but this is a pivot. Tucker Carlson was able to do something in that, that I don't know if people are getting him. He was able to levy a small degree of criticism to the right. He was... Absolutely. This is a pivot.

I don't know if we got to let you guys... both sides, everyone. This is either a pivot to a third party run for president. You're stuck on that. Could be. Look, I got people. I got I got birdies. We know. We know. I'm Ravens.

I'm Littlefinger. I'm Fat finger. You want to bet on it? I do not think he's around. You know, you ever watch Game of Thrones? A little finger, everybody knew. Yeah. I thought you were not going to say fat bastard. I'm fat finger. I'm fat finger. I'm not. fat guy with all the little ravens that go out.

I don't wear a house. Yeah, that's not going to happen. As a matter of fact, you know, don't compare me to people who have fours. I don't. I don't get that. Now, either a third party run for president or some sort of we are really straight down the middle type info war situation. I could see him being the next Alex Jones in a way because Alex Jones and guys of that

have been around leady platformed. so you have to go into the kind of corners of the internet to kind of find them. But I can see him doing something like that. But Tucker, we were wondering where Tucker was. We covered it. We don't really give too much of a fuck. I'm not going to lie. At least I don't.

I can't speak for rage. No, no. I mean, it was just worth noting. Note. Noted. So we have a treat here, an interview with Alan Hughes, great director. and the mind behind Dear Mama,

which is a documentary series coming on right now on FX Hulu that tells the story of Tupac and Afani Shakur. That's up next for you guys. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein

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This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7. U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right. Now, guys, this is a big moment for me, big moment for me in my career and my life.

Have somebody that's really inspired me over the decades. really when I started first forming my film brain, this was one of the brothers, one of the two brothers, should I say, that I looked up to. We have Alan Hughes on Higher Learning today. He's here to talk about Dear Mama, which is a fantastic documentary that's out right now

that looks at the life of Tupac and Afini Shukk core. And a lot of people are talking about it. A lot of people are discussing it. But this brother's career stretches so far back that I'm really, really proud and honored to have him on how I learning today.

Mr. Hughes, how are you? Good. Thank you, Van. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Rachel. Questions. Lots of Tupac documentaries. I've watched them all.

Why this story? Why this angle? Why now? did I get the name wrong? I'm sorry, no. That's a, you know, it's funny, I don't know, there's a dizzying dozens of Tupac's, right? Most of them, unfortunately,

leaning too far into the murder, death row thing, you know, and there was a good one, their resurrection in his own voice, that was really, well done, yeah. And it was unique in that, I'm like, wow, this is an interesting journey. We're feeling this whole thing through his own voice. So that was bold at the time, but also a feature length.

And it was 24 years ago. And, you know, you've got to get in there. And so why now I think, you know, Afani Shakur is obviously an unsung historical hero in history, who was all but been erased if not for her son and what she did. And being raised by a single activist mother myself, I felt that I could find more about that whole journey, his journey through her journey. Yeah, and I'm so glad you did just because I, you know, it's titled Dear Mama. We all know the song, but there's not much, that's my fault.

There's not much if it leaves gaps in to learn more about her and you're able to do this through this series. I wanted to ask you this, was there any hesitation? You answered the why now, but was there any hesitation on your part to be a part of this when you and Tupac had a complicated history? There was 100% hesitation to be part of it. And not just because of Tupac and my and my brother are personal history as complex as it was, because I would say that over the intense year friendship we had, you know, the little altercation was about five minutes. So I would hate for that to eclipse that, but also just making these things.

I did one called the Define ones a few years back. And I had to check myself into a mental health retreat after that because it's you've given up. It's so real you're dealing with people's lives and spirits and journeys. And, you know, and there's this thing called hip hop in the 90s, there were some literal bodies left in the way, too. And both these documentaries, I got to deal with that. So that's a lot of emotional luggage to take on. So it's not just about the history that Tupac and I share, even that dark five minutes.

It's about like how difficult it is to do these. And I didn't think I was not run right back in the one. You see what happened. Four years went by, I haven't done a feature film. I haven't done a television show. It's just been all this, you know? Yeah. You know, when I first heard that you were doing it,

obviously I thought, oh, well, there's the famous story about the altercation between. you and Tupac while you guys were doing this in society. I wondered how people would react to it. And I really hadn't heard a lot about that reaction until recently. One of the outlaws, Napoleon went on the art of dialogue. And he had some thoughts about whether or not you should be doing the documentary because of you and Tupac's relationship.

Like what are your thoughts on that? Like, were you and Pock ever able to reconcile? Was this something that you, a relationship that you had more with his mom? what did you say to people in his life they were like, well, why is he doing? Well, you know, I think it's real small-minded and for anyone to feel that, but I understand that

because we think with our small minds first, our lower self and go, oh, why, why, why? But what kind of, like, evil person it would take to want to do Tupac's story and, like, do them wrong because of some personal moment they had? I can't even think like that. I don't see the world like that, you know?

I see the world. Like how do we get some understanding? Could this be cathartic for all parties involved? Could it be cathartic for me? And there's no way being me and my brother started our careers with him. And he essentially started his career, his personal image-making career with us. You know, he chose us. And so, no, I understand Napoleon's, and there were a few haters out there like that.

Thank God I felt that people have come. come around and go, oh, no, there's a tremendous amount of love in this piece. You know, I don't, I don't rose-colored the lenses, but you can feel the love, you know. And what was the second part of the question? Oh, I mean, that's pretty much it. The question was just, like, did you, oh, the question was, did you and Tupac ever get a chance to recognize while he was a lot? That's a good one.

You know, I think I now know, I knew at the time that he, the apology, came in the vibe magazine, the famous vibe magazine interview that he also apologized to Quincy Jones in the same sentence. And I recently discovered his famous interview with Tapasorne where he apologized again, but not only that, she asked him where he worked with us. And he goes on to say like some really beautiful things that I never knew to six months ago.

So no, we never person got to do it, but I'll put that more on me than him. Even, you know, I can understand his hesitation to personally reach out. But if I had saw what I saw six months ago in real time, I probably would have reached out to him. You know, so we never personally got to do it. But I feel it just happened in this four-year journey. I think that happened.

I feel him more than I ever felt him. I feel compassion for him. And I feel a sense of, it's not the word closure, just a complete understanding, you know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You had said that you think that he's one of the most misunderstood figures of the 20th century. Why do you think that? And then I also read that you talked about how doing this and learning a lot more about his mom and her narrative,

that that would maybe help you help people understand him more. Or maybe you, I'm not sure you were talking about yourself as well. Could you speak to that too? That's right. I think he's one of the most misunderstood figures of 20th century. for one reason. He was available to any emotion he was in. And people wonder why he's riddled with contradictions.

When the power is burning that right, any great woman, any great man, has got to be riddled with contradictions. But also, I think he's singular in one way. He's one of one in the 20th century, in that we can project whatever we want into him or unto him like the Bible. You want to see violence, you see violence.

You want to see love? You see love. You want to see a fighter. You know, you want to see a saint, a sinner. Tupac is like one of those rare figures that people see what they want in him. And that's biblical. And so to try to understand him knowing that, I didn't know that about six months ago that part. I'm like, wait a minute, what is this?

You know, like, what's the saying of the sins of the fathers? Yeah. Fall on the Sun or whatever. Well, what about the thoughts and actions of the single mother and how they affect her children? We never talked about that. So let's talk about the painting right now. I, as a fan of Tupac, I am the Tupac generation. I was 16 where Pock got killed, right?

So I, we were the group of people that had anointed him as our cultural captain and we like we were like we listened to what he said like Tupac said be mad at this guy we were mad at this guy Tupac said do this we were mad Tupac said like that that was how deep we were into it and also

to see a man of that age show be that vulnerable about his relationship with his mother like not just the song but who she was how she made him you know I'm from Baton Louisiana and so it's all about what your daddy did to you,

how your daddy made you stand up straight like your dad. But you got so much of who he was from his mom. I just remember listening to Dear Mama and he says, even as a crack being, Mama, you always was my black queen. I was like, I would never in life say that about my mom. That type of truth about the relationship is just crazy. What did you learn about her and how who she was created this person that was able to inspire people

and still inspires people today. It really came from her. I love your phrase. I think Fannie was the number one cultural cap of her time and her crew. You know, she was the wanderer and the wanderer, as her sister said, and not aimlessly.

I think she was, her intellect, I think, was her curse and her gift, obviously, because she was so ahead of her time. She was always getting in trouble, too, with her mouth. and checking people. Wow.

That's not in there a lot. But, you know, people said they were like twins. And the more you drill down into her history and excavated, unfortunately, again, it's not like readily available for some reason. Black and a woman. Oh, that's just a double whammy here in America, right? Yeah. So, no, she got, he got all, everything you think you love about Tupac literally came from her.

And that's just too voluminous to get into all of it. Even the charisma and the way the command of a room came from her. But, you know, that's not a guarantee that your seed's going to have all those qualities is because you are. I just think it's just an oddity that it all got infused so heavily in him from her. And I always talk about, too, and this may be a, I don't know if it's a faux pot to say it, but women, we know this, this is not a football, women are a lot more in touch their emotions than men.

And that's something we have to start figuring out. But when you're raised by a single mother, I know it's a single mother who's an activist mother, you know, you don't know how to like bite your tongue. There's no such things bite your tongue. You're in touch with the emotion and you're raised by this activist mother.

And traditionally, the father's role is to take the young boy in the walk, listen. Don't let anyone think, don't let anyone know what you think. You know, keep you, you know, you know, you get taught that by your father if you have a decent father. I related to Tupac

because me and my brother got in a lot of trouble back in too when our career started. For the very same reason, just speaking our mind, name and names, not as hot as he burnt. Don't get me wrong, but I now look back and go, he got that from Ms. Margaret. He got that, he got that

never, don't bend the need for no one. Don't bite your tongue for no one. And I think it probably could use some balance, you know? Mm-hmm. What else do we see in this series? I know, obviously, we see the relationship between Tupac and his mom, but I know it goes deeper than that. We learned, as we learned about her and the Black Panther Party and some of the other things she did,

what else will viewers see as they watch this? Well, I mean, there is at the center of it is the trial of the Panther 21 in 1970, where she was facing 360 years with her comrades, 21 of them or 20 of her, you know, and defended herself. So that's at the center of, you know, not just the history of the Black Panthers and some civil rights history and some post-Panther PTSD post-traumatic stress narratives that run through it because one of the most important self themes I wanted to explore was mental health and the black community and, you know, black trauma as pertained to like the fallen soldiers of the civil rights movement, right? and just black men and women coming out whatever war they were in if you were not even in a war just being born here

comes with its own set of unique traumas so that's something you'll start to see emerge as you get part three, part four and then it's directly connected to the thesis about Tupac and who he is as an artist because you know listen it's my it's my

thesis of, you know, like, this is, this kid is an artist first. He's a poet, first, before he becomes a hip-hop, artists or recording artists or actor. He is, you'll hear a lot of talk of fantasy, myth-making, storytelling. So, you know, you take that combustible powder keg of not having the father, having an activist mother who had addiction to the struggles. These, these displacement issues because he's all over the place. And then that kid, that artist kid meets hip hop and you see what happens, you know. Do you see Pock's energy is my last Tupac question, because I got to ask you about a couple other things too.

We got a lot of Puck all day. Do you see Pock energy and any other rappers that are moving around today? Have you seen that energy since it? I won't say energy, but you know, the obvious things of Kendrick and Jay Cole or whatever like that, some of the mind of it, you know.

Right. And I can go on. There's ones I don't know of, but like the obvious ones that are saying something. But when you use the word energy, you know, that's what makes him singular. I don't see no rock stars like that. Like that transcendent.

There's a lot of great artists, there's a handful of great artists that are saying things, but none that carry that, that rock star aura that is, truly transcendent. I just don't see that. He's a one of one, though. He's a one of one generation, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to ask you about the biopic you're working on, Snoop Dog's biopic, and then I'm going to let Van have his questions because I know. I know he's got, he was to get in there. But, yeah, the Snoop Dog biopic, I mean, I know he's involved in Dear Mama as well.

And you can, if you can't speak a little bit about that, because just his perspective of being there and then reflecting on what happened years ago, I'm sure is really profound. If you could speak to that and then also talk about this biopic that you have coming up with him. And then I have another question

because I want to know who you want to play Snoop. That's a million dollars. That's a million dollar question. That's a mystery. Snoom's like, there's probably going to be some British dude. I said, you're probably right. Oh. No. All the great

ones, they're giving the American actors like real stiff. Because they come up in the theater over in the UK. And more of our performers and actors need to start taking this shit more serious, stop trying to be famous and start coming up to the theater. But that's another subject. Do you think that,

because a lot of the black American performers that I talk to, they don't like that. They don't like the fact that so many of our biopics, when you think about it, Fred Hampton, we had Cynthia Rebo as Harry Tubman. I think Cynthia Rebo also was she double-dipped because I think she was also Aretha Franklin, you know, a lot of this

She did, she took two. Selma, too. And Selma? Yeah. That was David O'Yellow. And Selma. So do you think that the British actors have an advantage over the American actors because of the thing?

You do? 100% have an advantage. British actors, period, white, black, Indian, Asian have an advantage over American actors because our culture is built on fame, period, period, full stop. People want to be famous. And now the cultures change so much

that no one's going through their progressions of their steps and are being thorough. Any place that's that hard and that cold, whether you're talking about the UK or Philadelphia or Chicago, is going to breed a lot more of character and flavor than the rest, right? But, you know, back to Snoop. I'll use this word like Snoop was a rare contemporary of mind man that I adore.

And I adore him for one reason, his heart and his mind. He's become a sage. He has this energy that carries over the world like Muhammad Ali had. It's very similar. It's not the same, but it's similar. And it's interconnectivity and wanting to understand and wanting to bring people together through love, quite frankly. So to see Snoop at 50 talking about the VMAs, what was going on between him and Tupac at death row at the time,

was heartbreaking to see that Snoop is here to talk about it and evolve as a human being as a man and reflect back on those mistakes of boys. And to see Tupac didn't get to... We almost lost Snoop to a murder trial. Absolutely. And he was that close. So he wouldn't have been here to do any of the positive things

that we would have lost him. You know, so that's a, the reason, or he brought the bio, I was on the road to making Marvin Gay, which is a complicated one. Oh. And I said, you know what? And we got all the rights. It was already, there was really no problems. But to be frank, I've never said this to anyone.

I was like, you know what? I should do Snoop first because it's more of my wheelhouse. People keep asking me and my brother about doing another hood film. here's an opportunity, but it also transcends the hood. It's more it's inspiring. And it's the music I love and it's a time and a place and a spirit. So I'm like, let me do this first because this I know. I feel Marvin, but I know this film.

So Miss Society comes out. My brother and my sister go see the movie. They're like, now you got to see this. How old were you? No, maybe like 13. That's wrong. Maybe like 13. Maybe 13.

You know what I mean? Maybe like 13 because what was it? It was 93. You got it. Yeah. So it was like I was like 13. So I went and I saw it by myself too. By the way, big kid.

They didn't even know. I walk right in there. I said, right at all. Hey, you know, no. So I go in there, I see the movie. Like, God damn. He died. Like, what?

You know what I mean? It's like, I came home. I was like, what the fuck? All right. Then their presidents comes out. Their presidents crazy had me mesmerized from litigating the Vietnam War and the way we treat our veterans to, like, what you have to come back to after you've given your life. And the craziness, it was like Miss Society and Boys in the Hood and Platoon like all in one movie with a heist as well. So I'm like, these guys are crazy. then from hell and then the book of Eli and all of this stuff comes you guys transition it seems like from directed movies that were specifically um culturally focused to just Hollywood movies Johnny Depp isn't from hell and then you got Denzel and Book of Eli what was the difference there what was the difference in working on films like dead presidents uh and this society to when you guys

brought that same artistic sense to movies that were a little bit more mainstream Hollywood. And in between there, there's American Pimp and there's still stuff that's very much grounded in that. But what was it like? We had the lady who plays Aunt Viv on Cassandra Freeman. Cassandra Freeman on the show. And she talked about the difference between some of the black sets

and some of the white sets. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. And so was it easier to make those films? Was it easier to make the films that you were making before? Was there a change in the way that you guys would about things? That's a great question. I think at the time we did from hell, I just didn't want, you know, in the film community,

the business doesn't really respect black filmmakers as artists. They just really don't. And no one's got to say that. They respect black musicians. as artists because where did it come from? It's been like that's just the beginning of music. So they know what it is. It's foreign to them in the film business

to bless a young woman or a young man or a grown man, a grown woman who's done something really artistic. Recently, we've been getting some glimpses of it. Steve McQueen being one of them, another British cat. But, you know, that I can just undeniably go, that's art. Right?

Yeah. So I remember going, hey, we've got to go over here. We fuck with our guy, Johnny, who's loving on us, you know, and something we love. We love, we always obsessed with Jack Ripper to just show that we're not like some ghetto kids, you know.

That was the instinct, but also to your question, once you expand your horizons beyond your existence, you start to see the toys and the resources and you get those reps in.

And from hell took us to Europe and really opened our minds up. We're by racial kids. We've always been outcast. And we got in Europe, and I made my first trip to Amsterdam. I'm like, I'm home. I'm home. No one's looking at me funny. It's no weird shit going on. You know, like, and

the music and the whole, the food, the way they eat. So it was a mind expanding for us. Denzel was just as mind expanding. Although back from Mount Burning and whatever, but social genius, just like Tupac. I mean, they have the

same thing. I don't know what that is. thing is, but Danzel's not a slave to his emotions, though. So that's where the difference is. But learned a lot on that film, again, resources, you know. Yeah. And then what's happened, it's come full circle for me. It's like, when I think about dead presence, I wish we could make it now because I see all the mistakes of children in that film, especially that film.

Menace, I know why those mistakes are. But I bowed now, I go, you know what? I got a chip on my shoulder about, you know, I think it's a great thing. great time for black stories and black filmmakers and writers, won't even wrong. But I wanted to devote the rest of my career to telling unique black stories at a high level with all the resources. And that's what Dear Mama represents to me. You know, I took my time to make that deal with the right network to make sure it was the right resources there. And even down to the marketing and positioning and all of it, I made sure it's all there. So we weren't like erased,

you know. Right. So I like to ask a weird question. I like this. This is my weird question. I'm going to give you the opportunity right now to make the perfect black movie. Okay. So you're going to make the perfect black movie.

Who's going to direct it? Who's the male lead? Who's the female lead? Who are the supporting actors who's going to write? Perfect black movie. God damn. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to tell me what you're doing it about.

Just tell me like the perfect black movie. male lead, female lead, your supporting actors, go. What you're going to do? I'm going to jump over the director for a second. That's not a high second. But I want to be contemporary. I don't want to go with the obvious. Like, Danzella's lead.

We've seen that. Okay. Who's the guy out here really killing him right now? Give me a rotating list. Okay. I'll give you a rotating list of guys. Kill him. And we're going to include the British guys.

Who's because they're going to get mad if we don't. All right. So the guys killing her right now are, Lakeith Stanfield Daniel Kaluya Michael B. Jordan Rachel throw something in here Yaya Abdulabatine the second

Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good one good. Oh yeah, like he's out there. Who else? They're more. There's more of them. I'm trying to... The female side is going to be Tessa Thompson, Nicole Bihari, Issa Ray.

Issa Ray is great. And if we've seen her anything dramatic because I would like to. I haven't seen Issa in anything too dramatic yet. Besides what's going on, Dominic Fishback. Oh, that's good. You have from Swarm. Okay. Zazi Beats from Atlanta.

You have a lot of talent right there. What's the one from Atlanta? Zazi Beetz. You know what? This is going to sound crazy, but if you can get that dude, Terrence Nance, to do something linear,

let's start with that as a director. He is my, I love that guy. Taran's Nance. Terrence Nance is our director. Wow. There's our director. I don't know what the writer is

because I'm not on the streets hard enough with this one right now, but I'm working with one I'm loving right now, Joe Robert Cole, who did the Black Panther films and also did the people versus OJ with Ryan Murphy.

I like him. But of all those actors, I'm trying to see who I want to see with Terrence Nance. I'll take Yaya. Yaya? Yeah, yeah. And not because

this ain't a talent test because a lot of those people, you know, like, Yaya has a thing, though, if he can come into it, that looks like it's a lead, it's feeling like leading man with

Ravitas. and now we need to put a woman with him, a young woman with him. What is the... Because Issa hasn't done. There's someone in Atlanta. No, it's not Atlanta. No, who is the girl I'm thinking about the girl?

Woman, Allen. I'll say girl. I'll circle back. What is she in? Can you think about what she's in? And we'll cut it together to make sure if you think about what she's in, I can help you out.

I can feel her energy right now, but I can't think about what she's in. You know, it's so interesting. I do like this, too. It's like, I remember I'll clock things like that before I know people's names, too. I go, yo, she's incredible, you know, and it's just this nuanced thing. And you know what? That says a lot. You know, we know Viola's gotten all her flowers, thank God, right?

But who, what young woman in her late 20s and early 30s is meant to be her generation's male street? They don't, they don't give, they don't, they don't, they make, they make, they make sisters go through 12, 13, 14 years of proving themselves before they give them the opportunity to kind of do that. It's changing a little bit now, but normally it takes a long time. See, you're just, you just uncover something. You know, Dr. Dre was saying to me, here's a provocative notion here. You know, why in certain black films, you know, he asked me where, you know, like, the acting's a little choppy, not all, but like,

certain. I go, what, I don't get the reps. They don't get the ball. You know, like, you got to get the ball and get the reps. And now, the men have generally gotten the reps. We know females of any nationality, race, or creed, right? So, speaking about Faney, so, you know, we got to take it

upon ourselves and make sure that more black female stories are told, because the fact that we're sitting here, and we have an easier time reciting the men and don't the women is a big problem. It's a big problem. What about Ziddea? What about it? She's, she's, She's magical in a different kind of way.

I think her test is going to be now stepping into that, to that womanhood. And I think she's going to, she's going to meet that challenge. But she's, she's special. There's no doubt about it. She's special. Ain't no doubt about it. Very talented.

I could talk to talk to you about film. You see the mistakes and dead presidents. Get out of here. Knock it off. I could talk to you about this forever, man. I'm happy to have had you on. like really the stuff that you guys did during that time, especially for someone

like myself, it was just inspirational. Because it was, Spike came, John came, and then for there to be more black filmmakers coming up making stuff that we could really go on to. We were, we just, we couldn't get enough of it. Thank you for that. Amazing I've had you on, brother. And everybody, check out, dear mama.

It is a fantastic, emotional ride. Learned as much about Tupac as you can. Alan Hughes. Thank you for joining us today. learning, man. Thank you. For taking my learning to a higher place. All right. All right, my friend.

Take care. All right. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the month. you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripp are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Ripp build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives.

Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Rachel, are you a fan of the WWE? No. You don't like wrestling? I don't watch it. I grew up.

My dad watched it, so, you know. Who's your dad's with a wrestling? Rick Flair. And Sting. And Sting. My dad likes Sting. So that was more W.S. you see WCW, but that's what we grew up watching.

My dad will always be on the N-64, playing the game. Your dad with the judge? All the time. He would be like, invite your friends over to play because I would play. That's so crazy. It's just, I thought of like your friends coming in and the judge coming in there.

My guy friends would come over and play. Yeah. He'd be in his robe playing with them and the judge's play. Man, I know that's what you want. But when he gets off the bench, he takes the robe off. He's never brought it home. I hate to disappoint you.

You're telling you right now, he's never worn the robe at the house. You've never seen it in the robe of the house. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I hate to disappoint you. I don't believe you. I just don't believe because I know that if it were me, I would be in the robe all the time.

Like, if it were me, I'd be in that mother. fucking robe. Like I'll wait through the morning. Like, I have the robe. Okay, whatever. So interesting, the W.E is being sued by

a former writer, alleges retaliation over racist scripts. Her name is Brittany Abrams, and she's a former WVU writer. She's found a lawsuit against the company and Vince McMahon

for retaliation. She says she faced for raising objections about scripts that contained offensively racist and stereotypical jargon for black wrestlers. She's black. She's hired by the WW.

As a writer for Raw and Friday night Smackdown in 2020. She says that they use racial stereotypes, including one that instructed the current raw wrestler by Bianca Belair to say, uh-uh, don't make me

take off my earrings and beat your ass. And she didn't want to write that. another a call for Apollo Cruz to talk with a stereotypical and exaggerated Nigerian accent. Other pictures she said had a black male wrestler dress and drag and on a separate occasion. One writer allegedly proposed given a Muslim wrestler a secret that they were revealed that they were behind the 9-11 attacks. Okay. she was fired in 2022 after continuously

exposing and opposing the racist and sexist pitches. The reason that she was given for a firing was that she took a chair branded with the rest of the 38th. See? That's not funny. See, Donnie?

I read that. It's funny when you read. That's not funny. is not Rachel, when I read this in the document, I was like, Donnie should have put this

a different way. I was like, you know what I'm saying? I was waiting for you to get to it. That's the reason they gave. She took a chair. When I read this in the document, I was like,

Donna should put this a different way because it's like, she took a chair branded with the WrestleMania 38. I love her. She took. She took a WrestleMania chair. Oh, my gosh.

You're fired. It's like, I'm like, I laugh when I'm ready. You know what? Strives me about this. What? I watch wrestling for a lot of my life. Mm-hmm. You know, it was like a, I'm from the South.

So wrestling's like a part of the culture. I saw Ted DiBiase and the Tiger Chuck stop one time. Oh, my God. A million dollar man. They would come through. You know, they come through to the Bat Rouge. The Centroplex this Sunday. Macho man, Randy Savage, you know, they come through.

NW.O. Omega Powers. D.X. I've watched wrestling for a long time. I haven't really watched it since I got in my 20s, but I still keep up with it every now. Oh, too, yeah. Well, no, it's like, you know,

I ask my wrestling friends who are so into it. Shout out Cass, who was on this channel. Shout out my homeboy Ryan Satin. A lot of people I know that are Wally. that are really into wrestling, every once in a while, I'll be like, I wonder if I'm missing anything

about not being interesting now, so I'll talk to them about wrestling a little bit or watching them promotes. Wrestling is exactly like the NFL. It's the same thing. The NFL has an overt race problem that it doesn't even try to hide. So much so to where it seems like sometimes

that the NFL is actually leaning into its race problem. Wrestling has always been racist. always from the characters that the guys portray and half portrayed to the things that Vince McMahon said the N-word live on Monday Night Raw I think it was because she said the N-word but it was a lot funnier um wrestling has always played into racist sexist stereotypical tropes homophobic tropes always but it exists in this cultural bubble like the NFL to where nobody cares.

And I'm not just talking about racism as it pertains to the performers themselves as wrestlers. I'm talking about like, you know, behind the scenes, racist stuff, racial scandals, Hulk Hogan, all of that stuff. Like, you've had black wrestlers complain of the way that they're treated or whether or not they get the opportunities

to have storylines or titles or any of that stuff. Wrestling has always, particularly the WWE, but pro wrestling has always had a race problem, but it's just not something that seems to be discussed in sake of the entertainment, much like the NFL. And that's what I would want to ask somebody who's really into wrestling, because I would argue that wrestling is more overt. It's more outrageous because of the things that they're having their wrestlers say to one another and then just say, in general. You mentioned Ted. Ted used to have a black bodyguard, Virgil, who he called a slave and used to rub his feet.

You know, like, even as a kid, I would see like the junkyard dog, yap, yap, yap. And he was wearing a collar around his neck. You don't remember the junkyard dog? I absolutely remember J.Y.D. And just be careful the way you talk about J.YD. No, no. My dad actually really liked the junkyard dog.

J. Y. Y.D. was all we had, man. But I remember seeing this guy with chains around his neck and his wrist. There's so many things that were outrageous. It's not just as simple as, oh, they were playing a character like a Kamala, which is still not great. Like Kamala was this hunter, and he came from what the deepest, darkest places in Africa. This is how they would introduce him. They were saying things about, hold on, I look this up,

telling people that they had lips like a cat. meant asking them, do they eat soul food? Let me talk to you in your own language. Do you like watermelon? Like, these things, man. This is not funny. I'm sorry, okay. It's just, this all got off to a,

this is a serious subject. This is serious, but this all got off to a bad thing with the way Donnie put it in the documentary. This all got off to a bad, this all, this all went to a bad thing. the way Donnie put it in the document. Donnie, you should have put this in a document like that, but you shouldn't. She's a fighter for taking a chair.

They should have gave her some swag. So, Rachel, talking about catchers and shit. It's not funny. It's not funny at all. It's really racist. But to compare it to the, I'm not saying the NFL is not racist, but that WWE is wild. And they capitalize and profit off of racial

stereotypes and, undertones all the time. That is what they're built on. Not just this, I mean, yeah, yeah, you mentioned Vince McMahon saying the N-word, which was crazy. And even to this day, they defend what happened. Like they don't make it seem like it was as big of a deal as it was.

But I'm just giving you a couple of examples. It happens all the time. They have those, the, the duo team called the real Americans. Did you say, where they were like, were the real Americans? You said what? I don't know the real Americans. Who were they?

They were attached to them? Like their whole gimmick was based off of like patriotism and xenophobia. And like they were saying that they were the real Americans because they were born in the United States and they entered this country legally. That's what they called them. Like just so many things that they do that nobody else does it like this. And I would love to talk to somebody who has been watching from the beginning even to now. And how do you just disregard?

the way that they treat not just black people, all races, except for white. You know, and I think a part of it, I think a part of it is obviously the area of the country, it's not okay. I'm telling me, this whole segment is ruined, man,

because of the, she stole the chair. That's a citizen's still no chair. Think about that. Even that's racist. That's racist as hell. But it's racist as hell to say, we fired you because you stole a chair with the logo on. That's, anyway.

It just shows how ludicrous it. I think it adds a little bit of merit to her lawsuit. But good luck to you, because how did you not know it wasn't racist already when you walked in? Well, what I'm saying is, the reason why I make the comparison is because the demographics of a fan base

probably pretty similar in terms of why some of these things happen. Like why these things are what they are. Wrestling always has these sort of ethnic stereotypes that they use. Yokozuna, Kamala, all of that stuff. But they've also dipped into some of the deepest, darkest circles of racism to rile up or storyline.

And it kind of either it's because people, like you said, say that it's not real or that it's all for drama or for show. They kind of get away with it. A lot of people don't talk about it. And I know you just shot the NFL a whole bunch of bail there. But the NFL is definitely as racist

as definitely as racist in the WW. Let's just say they show their racism in different ways. How about that? Okay. We're going to do one and then we're going to get to mailback. But I want to talk about Arnold Schwarzenegger real quick. His dad was a Nazi.

Yeah, I didn't know that until I read that article. No. Madnickers was Nazis. We talked about Disney before. I'm not doubting it. But I just was like, huh, I didn't know that. Yeah, Nazi. Nazi.

So look, play the audio of him talking about his dad and the alleged Nazism that existed. You stood up at this forum and you said, And I was born with a father that was a Nazi. Think about that. The air went out of the room. I've heard you talk about your father, but not like that. What made you say it that way? Well, first of all, you've to understand when I improvise a speech,

I don't think about how I say something or what I say. You used the story of your father to try to reach people who are getting sucked into groups that propagate hate. Talk about making that connection. My father was, and so many other millions of men, was sucked into a hate system through lies and deceits. And so we have seen where that leads. I said, I've seen it firsthand, how

broken this man's move that this man were the kind of atrocities that happened how many millions of people had to die and then they ended up losers you know the confederacy loses they see all of this just doesn't work i mean let's just go and get along and love is more powerful than hate Rachel, what do you do? I mean, I don't really know that much about this fan. I mean, that's the whole thing. The whole thing is that Arnold Schwarzenegger's dad was a Nazi. And he's calling out anti-Semitism.

Literally, this is the whole thing. What did you just say, the whole thing. His dad was a Nazi. He was asked about it. That's what he said. Is this, let me ask you this, is this the first time that he was aggressive? Is this the first time that he has,

spoken out about it? It's the first time I've ever heard it. It used to be a running joke when I was at TMD. They were talking about the fact that his dad was a Nazi. Even before when he was running for office, people would bring it up and stuff. But I can't remember him ever addressing it straight up and confirming

that. Once again, the same history show, that all was all, did something on Schwarzenegger, and, you know, they had to go and learn a lot. There's some Nazi shit there. It's a Nazi. not to.

I mean, I think that Arnold is doing exactly what you're supposed to do. I appreciate the fact that he didn't run from the question. He answered it. He called out what was wrong. I don't know if that was hard or easy for him to do, but the fact that he called out his family history and said what needed to be done rather than what was done,

good for Arnold. Good for Arnold. I guess I understand, but, you know, I do I do think something else What? You remember Patty Hurst? Remember her? You know the Patty Hurst?

Yeah, the kidnapping? Yeah. So Patty Hurst, the son of the daughter of William Randolph Hurst, maybe the daughter of the son of William Randolph Hurst, I can't remember. Maybe, I think she's his daughter. She becomes a member of the SLA, which was a black,

black militant organization. And they rob some banks. And you can see in one of the pictures that Patty Hurst has a gun. With a barret on there, helping them rob. The rest of these people go to jail, 35 years, whatever. They go crazy. Patty Hurst gets convicted, but then her sentence gets commuted by Jim Carter. What does Patty Hurst say?

I was brainwashed. I was brainwashed by the members of the SLA. My dad used to always say that she was dickwashed because she was having sex with the black guys and the SLA and she became a part of them and she believed in it. She did her thing and she came out and she goes, hey, somebody talked me and do it. Now, it occurs to me that if I'm a grown-ass man

and I don't know Arnold Schwarzenegger's dad, but I'm a grown-ass man and somebody comes to me and they say, hey, I think we should kill 12 million people. I might say, I think that's a bad idea. I think it's pretty amazing to me

to have him sit there and absolve people who, for their own selfish reasons, put their identity ahead of the lives and the safety of so many other people and then to do it with the Confederacy as well, Well, the Confederacy weren't a bunch of guys that were tricked into, I'm not mad.

I'm just saying as a point of intellectual fact, just so we know, the Confederacy weren't a bunch of guys that were tricked into believing some things that weren't true. There were a bunch of slave-owned redneck nigger-hating crackers who did not want their slaves to be able to make their own sandwiches whenever they wanted. Like, that's what they were. They didn't want us to be able to have. shoes and go to school and to be able to have chairs with the WrestleMania logo on.

And so they fought for that shit. They knew exactly what the fuck they were doing. When Hitler came in, yeah, you talked a good game, got a lot of people going. But at a certain point, your dad is a dickhead. At a certain point, your dad was just a fucking asshole who believed a bunch of things that he should have been smart enough to see were bad. At what point the Schwarzenegger's... What's this why my point is?

So at what point does Schwarzenegger's dad not know that shit is going wrong? Does he not hear that they're rounding up people and putting them into places where they're sticking them in the ovens? And does he not understand any of that? Because to me, see, see, if we really, if me and we, let's say we was on something, let's say we was going to Hillsong together. We're going to the Hillsong Church.

We're going, meet you, Colleen and Brian, we're going to Hillstone. And we love it. Passes up there. They got distressed jeans on. You know, they got tattoos. We like, man, this shit. Whatever. I'm great.

It's great. Oh, Lord. We feel your touch and your grace. We're going the whole thing. And then you tell me, hey, I don't know if you've heard, but it's a room at the bottom of the church. And it's like 14 girls in there. And they don't let them leave.

I'm like, hey, bro, I don't. we can't come to church on Sunday. Is that real? Yeah, go to the church. Would you believe it? Well, or would you be like, that's so outrageous?

At first, I probably wouldn't. But let's say I knew that it was happening. At a certain point, if you keep going to the church, it's on you. That's true. So I'm like,

look, I'm just what I'm saying I loves his dad. My dad did a lot of stuff. Okay. nutted everywhere. The reality is I can't pretend like you did. I love you, Dad.

God damn it. Okay, the YouTuber No, Melbaugh. He said it was all a joke. I just got to, just let you know. Rachel, he said it was all a joke. The YouTuber, his name is Trayvon Sellers. He has known as What's Up,

Trey, he said that the video that's been trending, he's clear the air on it. The whole video was scripted. The man you see is a friend and a member of my local community name, Israel Pope. I asked him before if I could do that video. So does the fact that the whole video was set up change your mind? No, like what was the point of that?

You did it. You wanted likes, you wanted the attention, you got the attention, it's not the attention that you wanted. And you're like, people are taking this video out of context. What did you expect for people to do? Assume that you really fed him, assume that he was a friend or a member of your community. Come on, get out of here with that.

I bet he won't do it again. What's the apology rate? Zero. Zero. Before you get to mailback, have you ever, what I need you to do, need you.

No, I need this. I think I need this. I think I want to hear on one episode coming up, Rachel's top five apologies. I want to hear apologies that really worked for you.

I want to hear what you. I think as an audience, we need to hear Rachel's top, Because you are hard on an apology. Like you are. Because they're always after the fact. My niggins. My nigger, you can't apologize before.

You could have to be after the task. What? Did Jerry admit? You mentioned Jerry with the giving money to a sex worker. Did he admit that or was he caught? No, they caught this. Oh, I thought you said he was honest about it. I thought when you saw a story, you were like, he came out.

And I was like, oh. In his next campaign, he's just like, when people were trying to come out of about it, he just fucking admitted and talked about it. So I'm sure I could find three. No, you got to find five. I'll do my research. Y'all got to help Rachel. Like, send apologies that people have made to Rachel.

And we need to find five apologies. Because if not, Rachel, the apology rating, it loses its power if no one ever does it right. All right. All right. I gave a three the other day, a two or a three. That's out of 10, though, right? Yeah. Come on.

Mailback time. Time to read your letters. And then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries. And we'll chime in. All right. First mailback question is from MacNMB.

They're assuming that you're assuming that you're all have watched the end of Snowfall. They say, as fans of the show, what did you think of the finale of Snowfall? Seems to be pretty controversial ending, but do you think they landed the plane? Did y'all even watch it? Wait, I watched it, but

are they, like, speaking in a figurative manner? Like, what plane? The plane of the show. If the show is a plane, the landing is the ending? Wait, wait, wait, wait. What a great

podcast. This has been what a fun podcast that we're doing. Rachel thinks that Rachel watched the end of Stonefall. I said it. I go is he speaking fingers? I said or did I said or

did I miss something? Well, I was like what? Honestly, I didn't think that the ending was. Dottie, you saw it? I didn't, but I've been spoiled. I see me. I watched. Like, I didn't think it was that controversial. I'm not sure what people were expecting to happen towards the end.

I liked the ending of it. I liked the fact that I like Leon's story. Leon's what a hero. You can't kill Franklin because you can't kill him. It's like not as much you can do it. Yeah.

It was interesting to see what he had become. So I thought it was cool. Again, when you know it's ending, I don't know. After breaking bad, I just don't expect much. I wasn't expecting anything crazy. It's cool. Shout out to Dave and the whole team.

I thought it was great. I loved it. Thank you, Van, for turning me on to it to the series. It takes place in Alaska. Next question. All right. Next one is from Gimme Shake Shuka. Inspired by Van's birthday gift story.

What is the most bizarre gift you've ever received or given? White boy in high school gave me a rope. I almost beat his motherfucking ass. And what did he say when he gave it to you? He was like, he knows that I cowboy. Like he, so this guy was actually like a cool guy. And he used to ride. So he, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we would talk about, we would talk about riding, right? We would talk about being on horses and stuff like that. He even came to the stable zone Burbank with this one time. And I come to school and he was like, it's your birthday a couple of days ago, right? I was like, yeah. And he gives a rope to me. And I was like, what the fuck? And he's like, man, that's a larion.

And I'm like, oh, because I mean, I got Larry it up here. I can show you it. I got a Lariat up there. But Larry has a news on it. A little thing. I can show you my Larry. Do you want to see it? No, no, I'm fine.

You want me to grab it, though? I can just so everybody can see the Larry. If you really want to do it, just go ahead. No. Zero support. Go ahead, Rachel. Tell you no story. I don't really have a bizarre one.

I mean, one time, yellow was my favorite color, and I had a boyfriend take that literally and bought me a yellow pairs of shoes. And I tried. And my little sister goes, he asked me, and I told him not to get you those shoes. But I guess it was the thought, he thought he was being considered this favorite color,

but they were a tedious, and I never wore them in. I don't even think I took them back. I just never would. It's not bizarre, but. Them shoes came in, the motherfucking coffee. Donnie. Next one.

All right. Last one is from Savon, 28. Do you remember the first time you were recognized by a fan in public or the first time your family realized you were famous? So I'm not famous,

but I do remember the first time I was recognized by a fan. Rachel, do you? No. I do. Okay. When? Where?

What? I was at the gym, working out at the gym. Who? Who? Who? And the girl comes over to me and goes, aren't you that guy on TMZ? And I was like, yeah.

She was like, shouldn't you be at work? But I used to tape, I used to, hey, whatever. I used to tape the show. And then I would go play basketball until it was time for my tours. Reminds me. What? I ran into somebody you play basketball with. Who?

And I said, My gosh, it's always someone. Steve, Kazi, Kazi, Kasi? No clue. White or black? White, Broadway. He was like, years ago he used to play with you. Like years.

Steve. And I was like, gosh, everybody, I'm about to show you a picture. Like, everybody says that they played basketball with man. here you go. I'll wait you. Because I told him I was going to say it. Donning, he doesn't recognize

him we got to cut this out the podcast. So maybe this is a younger picture. So this will maybe help you. Let me see. Yeah, I know what that is. I was like, oh my God. He was in the movie that I was just doing. Oh, oh, okay.

Yeah, he's like, yeah, I remember I used to play with him. And he's engaged to Jenna Dewan. now? Wait, what? Do you know who that is? Yeah, they have a child together. Yeah, the Louisiana Gowan is. They have a three-year-old son.

Who's really good at basketball, by the way. Let me tell you something about the white boys at the gym. Rachel's got a guy goes. Let me tell you something about the right-goy. The white boys at the gym would do good out here with the ladies. One of the guys at the gym, Jared, dated Jennifer Love Hewitt.

This was while we were playing basketball. And now Steve has got Jenna Dewan. Another one of the white boys at the gym had, what's her face? From the death race movie and whatever, that's how I know her. She'll come to the gym and watch, doing good at the gym.

Okay, go ahead, Steve. He's the bust Steve ass. He still plays. He said, he still plays every day. Oh, does he? Yeah, he said. And you try to ask him whether or not I could hoop, right? No, I didn't.

Because you always wanted. I just told him, I was like, Van still plays. Van, he's got a goal for Dunkin. I was like, he's in this thing. I big up to you, okay? I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, guys, I'm sorry that we were so wacky on this episode.

We got to go. Sorry. It was funny. I'm sorry, it wasn't. Land the plane. We got land the plane. Take me caps off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen, Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.