Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Donald Trump and the Last-Ditch Effort of a Dying Empire With Michael Harriot

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Van and Rachel have a conversation about her experience with alimony (3:37) before welcoming writer Michael Harriot to help break down Trump’s tariff war, which is looking bleak (23:32). Plus, Young Thug may be in trouble with the law again (45:38), Cory Booker breaks a record (57:47), and Andrew Schulz appeared on The Pivot (1:05:39). And finally, an Anthony Edwards rumor gets put to rest, but we still have questions (1:28:06). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Michael Harriot Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is that? Our learning is on. Is Ivan Lathan Jr.? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. I'm in New York, but we will both be in New York. May the 12th. Why, Rachel?

Because we're having our first live show ever. You guys asked for it. It's finally here. Van and I will be in New York. A city that will talk about. a little bit later, I might ask. Yeah, and we'll be out there, high learning, live in the flesh, ready to meet everybody. I don't have the date pulled up.

Tickets go on sale Monday, April 7th at 10 Eastern. Ringer.com slash events. Again, we'll be live at the Gramer Sea Theater on May 12th and you get tickets beginning this Monday at the ringer.com slash events. You guys, go get your tickets. There's going to be a special guest that is going to do. join us. The copy says maybe a special guest will join us.

I'm not saying maybe. We're going to have a special guest that is going to join us at the historic Gramacy Theater Monday, May 12th. Woo-hoo, niggas. Live show. Coming to you guys. You never know who it will be. You never know

what kind of guests you'll get here on higher learning. You never know. But what I would ask, oh, okay, I get it. We'll pause. What I can guarantee you guys is they will not be showing up. They will not be showing up. Let me just, can I just say this?

I saw a Reddit. I saw a Reddit that they did a like a top 10 worst guest list. Those people won't be there. Or maybe they will. Maybe we'll be feeling a little spicy and maybe they will. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe we'll add one to the list.

Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Candice Owens. I'd rather not not for the first live show I'd rather not Candice

Candice is going anti-Maga Have you seen it? I don't believe anything She's She's such a grifter After she went on her black crusade You know Trying to get back

I just I can't with her But yeah guys come out Oh that's what I was going to say Let us know Since y'all love to create You know the subreddits within the Reddit.

If that's even how you say it. I want to know what y'all would like to see in the live show. Since this is our first live show, I'm just curious if there's something that they'd want to see and maybe we'll incorporate it into the show. Yeah. I have a whole run of show. Vend doesn't like that at all. I like

No. No. I am curious as to what the people want. See, I'm one for the people. But you can't be that. You can't be like that, though. It doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Can't let them police your podcast. Can't let them dictate your podcast. Not the same thing. You can ask for feedback.

Exactly. You can ask for feedback, but at the same time, we have to come up with the run of show for our live show what we want to do. But there is no harm in saying, this is our first live show. I'm curious is what you guys would like to see. Well, you know what I mean. Some of the sexes. Selling tickets. Well, I guess we sold tickets, but in a big theater with special guests.

It's something different. So curious. Curious as to what they want. New York. Okay. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals

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What is it? That was discussed the alimony. There's something that you wanted to discuss lingering from the last podcast that we did. Actually, it was at the end. It was like a whole conversation around alimony. Me and you talked a couple of days ago. Yeah. And you said you wanted to talk about that a little bit.

Before we completely wash and move on, like, what did you want to say about that? What do you want to touch on? Well, it's more of like a conversation. Not something that I just want to, like, give this whole monologue on. But Van posted, after the, after we had finished recording with CK, he posted a conversation that CK. Van and I were having and the cameras were still rolling. A lot of people had a lot to say about the conversation between the three of us. I wanted you to post that because I knew that this would be a topic of conversation where people would not agree.

And a lot of people have a lot of opinions when it comes to child support, when it comes to spousal support. And I never really had a huge opinion on it until it involves me. But I think because it's personal to me and that specific conversation was personal, I don't really talk about the divorce because I'm not sure how I want to really roll it all out. But I think what I will address is because there's so much, if it's for the goose, it's for the gander. There's so much tit for tat. Well, if they do it, then they do. And there's so much generalizing in it.

When it comes to spousal support, even child support, but I'm not going to speak to that because I don't have children, it is particular to the people that are involved. and that goes for their circumstances, and it also goes to what state they reside in. You can't say this person did that, so this person should have that. This person took advantage of the system, so this person deserves to be taken advantage of.

And I think I'm not going to say it offends me because it doesn't hit me that hard, but it's just annoying to hear so many people have an opinion on my particular situation because they're comparing it to somebody else who's been subjected to alimony. One of the things that I want to say about my situation is I'm truly tired of the narrative of,

well, he's deserving of the money because he picked up and sacrificed his career for her. I'm just going to say this, and I'm going to say this once. Not true. And before I even get into the detail of it, also marriage, partnership, relationships, are also about sacrifice and compromise.

Some people give a little here. Some people give a little there. It's a back and forth. It's not all about one person. You have conversations, you work it out, you make decisions together. In my situation, my ex did not move three times for me. I want to say this one more time. My ex did not move three times for me.

We moved to Dallas because he quit his job as soon as he won the show. And I did not. So that was the only option because I was still employed. Nobody takes into, that's one move. Nobody takes into consideration that I left my legal job in Dallas and moved to Miami with no job. Nobody considers that. Then we moved to L.A. And that was a we decision.

I think if you followed the journey, you knew that I wasn't the only one who wanted to be in Hollywood. And that's all I'm going to say about that. I have an issue with people who take advantage of the system. The reason I said that my ex is not deserving of alimony is because we both made sacrifices in the marriage. And I shouldn't be punished because I was successful during the time that we were married and he wasn't. You guys can follow me for not getting a pre-up. I get it. I understand it.

You don't know the circumstances that went into all of that. Like I said, I'm not going to go into the tip for tat. but somebody who is fully capable of working, who is licensed in multiple states, who could go work for somebody or start their own business, or could influence, or could use the platform that was given to them to leverage it into other things, should not be receiving spouses support. And I think the bigger conversation isn't the what. It's that they can take advantage of an archaic system that was created for a specific reason and is now, being used by people for the wrong reason. Not every time, but there are people who take advantage of the system, which is my case. I'm not saying that my ex didn't deserve some sort of compensation. If you read, if you followed along, you saw that I was willing to give money.

What I don't agree with is the taking advantage of just because you can take advantage of an old system. Think a bigger conversation that needs to be had is that the laws around alimony need to change in order to reflect modern times. Women are in a different situation than they are before. So are men. Things are not the same as when it started when women weren't allowed to have bank accounts. When women, the gender gap still exists, but the gender gap was even bigger. Women weren't allowed to have certain jobs. There were certain things that were holding women back, which is why this was created. It's a different situation now. And men who are fully capable, at least in my situation, of working

and building something on their own, are allowed to take advantage of a system that wasn't meant to benefit them. So, first of all, before I even interject here, when you say the system and what it was created for, what do you mean? In family law, spouses support, that system that existed to make

a partner, man or women, to make, them whole or to give them compensation to make it fair for them to be able to rebuild their life because they were dependent on it in one way during the marriage. Okay. Okay. So I'll be honest with you and I'm going to come off like a cuck here. Go one podcast without using that word.

That is your favorite word. I'm going to come off like a cuck here. So this is the way I look at this. First of all, prior to your situation, I would have laughed at you. I get it. I would have laughed because you've just had so many different arguments

with people, with women, to where women are talking about what they do in the household and how they're entitled to these enormous sums of money from men that they've been with. Whether it's the, you wasn't with me shooting in the gym, whether it was all of that. stuff, right? So I would have laughed. I'd have been like, okay, well, if we're splitting everything

50-50 and we're actually married and we don't have a pre-nup, if that works for the man, it should work for the woman. Now, I'll tell you this. Can I just say there's a difference. Go for it. Okay. Okay. We're talking about spousal support. I was willing to split 50-50, even though I don't think he's deserving. He got that and said he couldn't support himself. That's where the system is broken. I have no problem saying, I understand sacrifices remain, even though I paid all the bills because I was supporting him while he was building his business, things you do in a marriage. Because I thought, if I'm down, he might have to support me. Those are things that you do. I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of. I thought he's trying to build. He moved to L.A.

for me. I had a job. So I'm going to take care of things while and give him the space and the opportunity to be able to create. How you contradict yourself, Rach. You just said, just because people are going to catch that. That he moved for me? Well, yeah, you just said he moved for me. Earlier, you said you guys moved together. No, yes, I moved for him to Miami because he wanted to move there and start a business. I left my legal job.

I got a job in L.A. He moved because I had the job. What I'm saying is he wanted to be here. It's not like he didn't want to be here. He wanted that Hollywood. But I just want to make it clear. I want you to continue. And I'm sorry to interrupt.

There's a difference between splitting 50-50 and having to give. spouse's support. That's the difference. My sum is so big because of spousal support, not because of splitting the 50-50. I see. So it's not just a... That's where the greed comes in. Yeah. The greed comes in because you also want spousal support. Correct. So before I even move on, do you think that women should get spouses support? It depends on the situation. Just like a man should, right? If he moved to L.A. and said, I can't work. There's nothing for me here. I could have only he worked here and he stayed at home and, you know, like took care of things in that way, then he's got to now live on his own and figure out how to work and make a living.

These are situations that require spousal support, in my opinion. Okay. So let me admit to my toxicity here. The way that I was raised, I just wouldn't be in a situation where I was getting spousal support from a woman. Of course you wouldn't happen. All right. So my dad used to look at me. He'd be like, I'd be laying down on the couch. You'd be like, all right, I won't let you know something. You look useless right now.

And I'd be like, okay, I'm watching WrestleMania. The world ain't got no use for a useless man. The world ain't got no use for a useless man. Get up and do something. Figure out something. Figure out how to be valuable to people, whatever. So it wouldn't be me, right? It wouldn't be me.

I was saying that before just because it's such attractive chip in the overall gender wars poker game. So you get it and now you get it. But I think about it like this, honestly. I look at justice in a very specific way. Meaning, I believe where there is equality, there can be justice. Where there is no equality, there can only be restorative justice. Right?

Okay. So if everything is equal, if everything, think is equal, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But if things are unequal, then we have to consider that before we talk about what's good for the goose and what's good for the gander. So the way I look at it is this is very simple. There is a wage gap that exists. There is patriarchy that exists. Women leaving a divorce in most cases need more help than men because of the inequality that went into those situations prior to the people getting married, particularly in the times that you're talking about,

you know, women didn't have access to capital, access to their financial independence, and so they needed it much more directly then. But even now, you're still talking about a tremendous wealth gap, a tremendous wage gap, and in a situation where you're leaving a marriage, you can't really do anything to account for that other

than to have the man who probably in most, situations is going to be able to have generated more capital and have more wealth in that situation help out the wife a little bit until she gets to a point to where she can take care of herself and then maybe kids. Now, I don't know how that's supposed to work. I don't know how far that's supposed to go or whatever. But I have been affected, I think, by a couple things. Number one, and I'll just be honest with you, by watching how, and I'm going to say the name, how Brian handled this. Like, I'll be honest with you.

I always fucked with Brian. Always fucking with Brian. Brian was cool. Me and Brian went to play basketball. Brian played one game left. It's all gravy. I don't know what happened on the court. Man, we went and played that basketball game.

Brian came in there. You know, Brian talked about like he hoop and shit like that. Brian coming in, he played the game. And he, he, We play, and look, I'm playing ball at that point. I'm like 315 pounds. I've lost, people can't tell now. I've lost like 40 pounds, right?

We can tell. But I'm playing the game, right? And, you know, I hit a game winner. Bam! We got another game. We're still on the court. This is Equinox on Saturday morning. Like, this is when the players are out.

We got another game. We got another game. Brian is on the side. I got a modeling gig. Did he say that? Yeah, he said that at a modeling gig. because he had a modeling gig, he had to leave. And then he left.

He came home. He came home. By the way, he came home. I was like, why Brian don't like? A modeling gig? What? He had a modeling gig. He left.

I think maybe his body wasn't used to, but you know, it was ever. What? You never told me that. Maybe his body wasn't used to, um, to hooping. He wasn't bad. Because even though I was out of shape and out of overweight, I had still been hooping. But he left, he left, of course. But even so I always fuck with Brian.

But I lost a lot of respect for Brian. in the way he went about this whole thing. Sure. And by the way, even if it hadn't been you, if it hadn't been some other guy that I was just reading about,

I'd have been like, eh. Because, but I'll tell you something about that entire thing, about that method of looking at things. It comes from patriarchy. That comes from my belief

that men have a specific utility to society and you could argue that it comes from a belief that men are slightly more important, right? Because when my father was given that to me, that's definitely what he was saying. What he was saying was that men are far too important to be useless. Now, the only thing I will say about my father is that he did put a lot of respect into what mom did. My mother had a lot of different iterations of utility.

in the house. And what I mean by that is that at first it was just homemaker when I was a kid. It was just a homemaker. It was just a lady who cooked and all of that stuff. And then she would keep kids on the side. My mother wearing an unlicensed daycare. A lot of people. Everybody, I went to one of those growing up. My mother, unlicensed day care. She would just be keeping white kids. I would come home. I'd be like, hey, man, give me my fucking toys. What's wrong with you? Keep my toys.

That was the hustle back in this. That was the hustle. My mother ran an unlicensed daycare. And she was cold with it too. Mama would scare the shit out of kids, come home, put mask all over her face, tell scary stories. The whole nine, it was great. I think she scarred Ryan a little bit.

But then my mother worked at a law office where we moved to Los Angeles. She became like a paralegal. Then when we got back, she, uh, started working as a loan officer, started making like a lot of money. But she never, ever, ever neglected what she thought was her duty to her family, which was to be present in the home as far as keeping the home straight,

keeping food on the table and looking after people. She never did that. That was something that she did. And he respected that. He respected that. That's nice. Despite the fact that he, was the man that he was.

He respected that and he would be like, yo, when he would say clean up the house, he wouldn't say clean up the house, so the house was straight, he'd be like, clean up the house, don't disrespect your mama like that. Say thank you to your mama after your mom then could.

Do all of this stuff. Your mama does this, your mama does that. Now there was tension after she started making more money than him. There was, there was, there was tension then, right. So I'm saying, even though I look at this, the way sort of, that you do in terms of the whole alimony thing,

it probably doesn't come from a good place. It probably comes from a place that is bound up in me thinking, you know, men are too important to not use that importance out in the world. Or men are too privileged or men are too useful or the world stops if men don't have utility. If the world stops if men don't get up off their asses, right? So I'm not sure it comes from a great place, but after watching kind of what you went through, I'm like, did I lose respect for him, a little bit of respect to everybody as a human being? Did I lose a little bit of respect for him only because he's a man and he's doing this?

Probably because I think it's still ingraines in us, which is why there was such a heated conversation in the comments, and this isn't the first time. But I want people to listen to what I said, that I took the emotion out of it, right? I'm specifically speaking to the actuality of the, and the dynamic of the marriage that we had. I haven't said once, you know, like it's not, you know, he's, he should be working or some of the things that you said or because he's a man, it should be this. I'm not doing that.

I'm saying, as the judge said and basically acknowledged, she's legally bound to do these things, but he is fully capable, she basically said go get a job, fully capable of being. able to work on his own. And instead, you know, people, people laughed when I said he was a leech. But the reason that I said that in, you know, the first spousal support payment is because not only are you asking for spousal, you're asking for my retirement, my stocks, my investments, like every single thing, tax refunds, every single thing that you could pull from you were pulling from, rather than just saying, hey, you know, like I made some sacrifices.

And that's what I would always be like, what do you want? What do you need? It was, I want half of everything you have plus spousal support, nothing in between. And that, to me, is wrong. That's me. I know you're going to end up doing the book. So we don't want to step on the book. No, there's, there is so much more.

But let me ask you. Let me ask you this. Before we move on, because I know you wanted to. tie ball on that. Is there anything, any reason that you feel like he was specifically trying to punish you? Jealousy and resentment. All right. You guys, we got to talk tariffs now. Speaking of tariffs, the nigger tariffed your ass. Basically, basically. We got to talk tariffs now. We're going to do that on the other side of this brain.

with Michael Harriet, who, look, in addition to being the dean of black Twitter, he's also a formally educated economist. I didn't know he was an economist. I didn't know that either until you told me that. What does he not do? What the fuck is going on with Michael, man? On the other side of his break, we're going to talk to Michael Harriet about Trump's tariffs.

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You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, Trump announced America's Liberation Day yesterday after the market's closed. And there are a lot of people that are wondering, what do these sweeping tariffs mean for me and my household?

Rachel and I could try to explain it, but we don't know nothing about money, but we got friends that do. Michael fucking Harriet, we talked, and then he looks at it. He goes, hey, Hey, Ben, I don't know if you guys know, friend of the program, Michael Herod, but I'm a trained economist, which I never knew that, brother.

Do you leave with that? Do you leave with that? I really do. I rarely do. Because most people know me as a journalist and a historian. So I rarely say, yo, I'm actually an economist. Yeah, so let's ask this. First of all, thank you for joining us on higher learning.

You guys know Michael. You guys know everything that he does. But he was going to help us dig into these. What is the point of these tariffs? If I was to ask you this as someone who is concerned, a citizen, what's the point of these tariffs? Trump has given a lot of different reasons. He said that these tariffs are retribution over fentanyl.

He said that they're reciprocal tariffs against countries that are tariffing us. But no one seems to really know. Do you have thoughts on what the point of the tariffs actually are? Yeah. So tariffs do a lot of things, depending on how you use them. But the point of these tariffs, they won't reduce the flow of fentanyl because the government, it's not like these governments are, you know, conspiring with people who are shipping fentanyl over here. And it's like three countries that send fentanyl over here anyway. So they're not to stop the flow of fentanyl.

Governments usually try to stop drug dealers. Anyway, it's not like they'll try harder. It's not to help the economy. What it is, really, it is the last-ditch effort of a dying empire to help. Think about the people who voted for Trump, right? Uneducated working-class white people who are, by and large, losing their job because American manufacturing is dead. And so to, you know, to throw a bone to these people, he instituted these tariffs because, because they've been led to believe, like, the reason their factories are closing, the reason that, you know, American economy is on the decline, the reason they have what we call economic anxiety, it's because of the foreigners, right?

Those liberal countries that are ruining trade, because, you know, they're not getting a fair shake. And so if we charge these other countries a tax to sell their stuff in America, then it'll fix everything for these poor working class white people who, you know, historically, you know, you're from Louisiana. Like working at the plant was a job that could guarantee you a middle class lifestyle. Certainly. And when you compete against other countries. countries, right, you kind of have to be inside a real meritocracy.

What these tariffs are is really economic affirmative action. Right. Well, think about it, right? So they are an affirmative action that helps what all of these white people who voted for Trumps say they love, right? They love the free market, right? They love a meritocracy. They love lower taxes.

They don't want government. intervention, this contravenes all of that, right, to help these companies gain an economic footing. And that's why he's instituting these taxes because it'll work for, you know, a little while. But then, as we've seen before in history, twice in history, every hundred years this happens. And what happens is a huge depression. What, do you say it'll work in a little while, but when will it work? Oh, I'm going to go ahead, Rich. No, that was my question.

So go ahead. Like when would it work? It seems to be that these people that you're talking about right now, it'll emiserate them in the interim, right? Because prices are going to go up. It seems like they're going to lose jobs. So when is it going to work? So what will happen is a lot of these American manufacturing companies

will have relief in the market, in the global market, right? Like they'll be somewhat on an even footing. So you have to remember that America doesn't make shit anymore, right? Like we don't create stuff, right? So these people are employed in jobs that are basically going to disappear anyway. But this will give these companies a reprieve. Some of these manufacturers are reprieve for a little while. Some people won't lose their jobs.

They will pay $10 a dozen for eggs, right? they will have higher prices, but they'll have for a little while an income. We saw it in, you know, in 1828. This happened, right? And what happened was there was this economic boom

for two years. And then they wrote this thing, say, well, these houses are so bad, we should be able, the southern states should be able to nullify them because we got free labor, right? And that's what, that principle that they used, that nullification principle, became the

main impetus for the bloodiest war ever fought on this continent, the Civil War. In 1928, it happened again. Remember the guilty days when motherfuckers was wearing tuxedos, the baseball games, and throwing great Gatsby parties. It was because manufacturing was such a boom that we couldn't sell all of the stuff that we were making. So we stopped these importers by giving them tariffs. that's what caused, in large part, the Great Depression. And for a little while, these companies will be able to stay open because, again, for this affirmative action that's financial, they'll be able to keep their doors open.

Their people won't be as economically anxious when they go to work. Now, when they go to the grocery store, when they go to Walmart, they'll be buying higher prices. But in the short term, it targets a very small group of people who by and large support Trump. Does this take, for what you're saying, let's just say there is some success that happens because historically, as you pointed out,

even if it's for a year or two that that has happened, is that dependent on the people who are getting these tears placed on them not retaliate? Because if they retaliate, does that wash it all away? Well, they will retaliate. Let's be clear, right? But in the interim, those retaliations, again, will not really affect us right now, immediate. But when they retaliate, prices will increase even higher, right?

And remember, now, the retaliation really won't affect us that much simply because of this, right? When they retaliate, they're basically taxing American goods that are sold overseas. Well, America doesn't make shit. We consume shit. We're the biggest consumer economy on the planet. So it's really going to affect us. No matter how bad they retaliate, regardless of whether they retaliate or not,

what we're shipping out force, I mean, is dwarfed by what we take in, what we consume. Americans buy everything across the globe. And we don't choose based on quality. We choose based on price. So it's going to hurt our economy. economy in the long term.

Like a year from now, you're going to see this. Even if you were sent them tomorrow, it's still going to hurt our economy. So I still want to make sure that I get to clarity on how it will benefit in the short term just because there's so much panic. There's been two trillion erased from the stock market already. And like people are talking about the Nintendo Switch 2 is coming out. and the Nintendo Switch 2 is pissing kids off because it's going to be much cheaper in Japan

than it will be here because there are tariffs across the board on Japan now and now to import the Nintendo Switch 2 and have it come over to America that we're going to have to eat that. The consumer is going to have to eat that. So what I'm trying to figure out is even the working class white people

that you're talking about, how does it materially help them to have instability in the economy and to have higher prices paid, not just at the grocery store, but for cars, literally, Trump and his administration said, just don't buy any cars.

Like, cars are going to be more expensive because of all the different things that are taxed. So how are they going to be, what is going to be better for them with higher prices and more economic, instability. I guess I don't want to understand. So is it not going to

be better for them? And you're talking about two different things. You're conflated two different things. Say you are a steel worker in Birmingham, Alabama, right? And because of what you produced in Birmingham, right? You can really only sell your

products in America because the tariffs in America, right? You don't have to compete with global companies, right? Right. Right. And this gives you a more uneven playing field, right?

So your steel factory is going to stay open. You're going to keep your job. There's not going to be, you know, incredible layoffs that we saw on the horizon because of this looming reset. Okay. Right. So it's only going to help them by not losing their job. So you're talking about a very specific portion of the population.

I'm understanding you now. excuse my ignorance, a very specific portion of the population who might already be employed in these industries, who are going to get some stability from the fact that these industries are now protected by these tariffs across the board. Right. The question I'll ask you about that. The Atlanta Fed is now saying that there could be a recession. The number keeps going up.

It's going from 25% to 35%. Now there are people that are saying that there is a 50%. percent chance that there is a recession that's coming. Would those people be not affected by that recession? Would they still be insulated from any effects from a contraction in the overall economic status of American output? Or they're going to be cool no matter what? They're going to be affected. Everybody's going to be affected by a recession, right? And inflation. Because prices are going up every time you go to the grocery store, you're going to be paying higher prices, more of your income, and coupled with stagnant wages, right? Like wages haven't gone up in years. But a lot of those

people were facing jobs that were going to be obsolete. So when you go to the grocery store, most of what you buy probably wasn't made in this country, the few things that were, right, those people are going to keep their jobs making that shit because their competitors' prices are higher. Right. So just imagine, like, I hate to use this analogy, but like really one of the best examples is like crack. Like, yeah, just think about this, right? When somebody moves into a neighborhood and start selling crap, right? the difference in the price is by how much it costs the person who's supplying that block, right?

So if you got a lower crack price, you're going to get the company, you're going to get the customers, right? If your cookies are bigger, you know, you're going to get the customers, right? And so when you move in, the people who are moving into America's block to sell their crack, they, Trump is placing tariffs on them. that his cornerboards, the Elon Musk, who is shipping cars overseas, can sell more of his crash so that Jeff Bezos, who has a global company that profits from manufacturing, he's going to be able to sell more crack because the competitors are being taxed, right? They got higher-priced rocks.

And so that dynamic is going to benefit billionaires. and the poor white people who work in manufacturing. By and large, like it's terrible, but it's kind of a brilliant way to economically target the people who specifically voted for you. I know inflation. It's happening.

It's going to happen. But if we continue in this way, think that now hearing recession and hearing Van talk about the percentage of it, is it inevitable? will it absolutely happen if we continue in this way? 100%. And what would that look like?

Well, so it's going to look like two things, right? Again, most of the stuff you buy is made overseas. You don't know whether it's made overseas. And even if it's not made overseas, like the ingredients that go into the thing comes from overseas by and large, right? You might get a computer that's made in America. But the chips are made in China. We cannot compete with them unless we tax them.

They use child labor who work 14 hours a day, so we can't compete with them. The only way we can compete with them is terrorists. So here's the problem, though, in a capitalist system, right, when the American companies are not going to use that advantage that they have in the marketplace to give us lower prices, they're going to raise. prices too. The job of an American company is to make as much money as possible. So if their competitors were selling it at $17.00, right?

They're going to sell it for $16.99. They're going to increase their prices to $16.99. So they're going to make more money. The inflation is going to hit us and prices are inevitably going to go up. There is not a single company in America

who is not going to take advantage of a way to make more profit. That's why companies and corporations exist. Not only that, I can make an argument that even though we're talking about that work in the short term, right, that those companies, when they have to negotiate with unions and when they have to match their profits with, when they have to match wage growth with their profit, that they'll turn to automation, that those jobs that those people have will actually still be imperiled

because if those American companies that don't have the option to have the slave labor that they might be getting in China or some of the labor practices they might be getting in other places, that they'll turn to automation in places where they can't and they will eliminate jobs to keep their margins fat despite those workers and those industries

maybe being a little bit more robust because they're producing things domestically. Is that something that you could possibly see happening? Oh, it's definitely going to happen. It's already happening. This is why all of those people are economically anxious. I mean, again, there are two things, right, what these people have been led to believe and reality, right?

So they think they're getting laid off because of the foreign companies, because of, you know, what Biden did, what, you know, liberal policies, high taxes. But what they're really facing is just a change in technology and a change in the American economy going from technological advances in automation back from, like, you know, human workers assembling things. Now, that's the reality. But what they think is that it's the price, like we can't compete because of the Chinese people making stuff for 12 cents an hour. And Biden opened free trade and Clinton open NAFTA. and we got these open borders and the people are going to take our job,

that's what they think. So this is a kind of a signal to those people, but it won't alleviate the problems. How likely is a depression? So like one thing that we're not talking about when this, with all of this tariff stuff, is that a depression is likely because of this, right? It's just terrified.

All of those people who are going to be, paying high prices, all of those people are going to lose their jobs, they're not going to be able to use government assistance. We're simultaneously dismantling the federal bureaucracy that provides these protections, right? Like, how are they going to get Social Security checks? How are they going to get food stamps and Social Security benefits and all of that, right? So even the people who have been getting those government programs, they're going to see a reduction and coupled with high prices I don't know how depression is avoidable. Like the Fed, when the Fed says 35%,

you have to realize that this is probably one of the most conservative economic institutions in the world. Right? They're saying, when they say 25, 35%, like add 20% on to that. Right? Because they're being conservative.

And if you talk, just like you said, when you talk to economists, regular economists, they're saying 50%, they're saying 60%, it's almost avoidable, and it's almost no way to turn back. What these things are in place for a month? We're not going to be able to turn back. You can't turn

off and on tariffs like this. They're pretty durable. You guys, that was award-winning journalist, New York Times bestseller. The author of Black AF History, the unwhitewashed story of America, also holds a degree in

macroeconomics and international business from Florida State. Wow. The overqualified Michael Harriet, thank you for joining this today on How I Learning, brother. Always good to talk to you, man. Always good to talk to you guys too. All right, brother.

Thank you, Michael. That was great. Thank you, brother. Easily breaking it down. Thank you. Jesus Christ. I failed economics. I'm so afraid. Yeah, it's going to fuck. It's going to be fucked up.

Like the next 15 years is going to be fucked up. But I wanted to ask you this. I wanted to ask you this. And I know, and maybe we could put this in or not. But knowing that you said in a month, a month will do the damage. If it's a year or six months or whatever it may be and enough is happening, I would imagine that there would be a political shift where these Republicans can't continue to blindly back Trump when their constituents are suffering so much.

much. I would think that that would put some sort of pressure on the Trump administration to where they say, hey, we can't continue like we are or continue to hold our place, our power in America if the people who vote for us are harmed the most. Do you foresee something like that happen? So for that to happen, right, the Republicans would have to. So when they passed this continuing resolution to keep the government open, right? They did this weird thing if you look at that resolution. they made a year, like the rest of this year is one day, right, according to the government regulations. And why they did that is because Trump did all of this.

Like Trump, a president isn't supposed to be able to enact tariffs. To do that, he has to declare an emergency. So an emergency, he can declare one for like three days and then for it to continue, Congress has to vote on it within three days, right? So what the House of Representatives did is made the rest of this year technically into one day. So they will not be. So they gave Trump all of this power. They robbed themselves of the ability to reverse it.

So Congress doesn't have the power to reverse Trump's tariffs because for the rest of this year, he has the authority to do any and all of this. So maybe they can convince him privately. I don't know how many times Trump has changed his mind and said I was wrong. I can't find any. But like that's like Congress is not in this mix at all because the Republicans specifically Mike Johnson gave him the power. Yeah.

With this little arcane rule in the continuing resolution. You got to say it right. Mini Mike Johnson. Yeah, Mini Mike Johnson. I'm sorry. Mini Mike Johnson. I'm going to hit you on the text, man. Thank you.

All right, man. All right. Let's talk about Young Thug. prosecutors in the Fulton County District Attorney's Office have filed a motion to revoke his probation. This comes after he tweeted a picture of Atlanta PD investigator Marissa Viveretto with the caption, Biggest Liar in the DA's office.

Now, that post ended up going viral, and according to court documents, the investigator received death threats and she was doxed because of that tweet. I'm leaning on you. Because... Why are you leading on me? Well, because it would seem that, and, you know, we've talked about it here on the podcast.

Young Thug has a very lengthy probation period. I think it's like 15 years. Yeah. Based upon everything that he was tried for and the adjudication of that, he has a long probation period. But it would seem like he has freedom of speech, right? It would seem like he could say that his trial was fucked up or the Atlanta PD was fucked up or the lawyers were fucked up, or he could say fuck Donald Trump,

or he could say fuck Fannie Willis, or it would seem like he had freedom of speech. But there, I would, he obviously has freedom of speech, but he also has strict terms of his probation. I don't know what every single out thing is outlined in the probation, but I know that he's obviously required to drug test and random searches,

and he can't be affiliated with any gangs or any gang members or can't promote them. But I would imagine, and I think that's what Fawney Willis is saying, is there's something in there that makes this look, you posting a picture, calling her a liar and then saying all my homies hate her, which he's deleted the post, right? Because it is problematic. But I believe that she's witnessing, she was a witness during his trial, but then also has been witnesses in other gang murder cases that involve. other defendants. And so for him to post this kind of thing, you're obviously the intention behind it is to get a reaction towards her. And I think an argument can be made. I'm not saying that they'll be successful in this, but I think an argument can be made that this is intimidation or harassment and is provoking people, which it did to harm her just by you posting this and calling her a liar basically relating it to your own situation.

as she was a witness during your trial. So you can't tell me that he didn't want something to happen to her. Maybe not this exactly, but he wanted people to come at her. And I think... You are correct. I'm going to read this from USA Today. Williams, who was originally tried alongside other members of YSL, which prosecutors alleged is a violent street game,

is accused of recirculating social media posts from a blogger that revealed the identity of Marist's, Vera Rito, Viverito, an investigator currently testifying in a hearing over a multi-defendant gang murder. The court had explicitly outlined

that the identity of witnesses should be kept confidential. There you go. But the blogger posted a photo of her anyway. According to the motion alongside the caption, she doesn't want to be shown on screen. Well, here she is. So it seems that there's another case here where the court explicitly said

do not show the identities of witnesses and the blogger did it anyway and then Young Thug then repeated or retweeted that. I guess my question is he's not involved in that case.

I'm not making arguments for Young Thubb, but he's not involved in that case. So if he retweets that, even though there's a court order in that other case, could they actually send Thug back to jail and he has to do all of this time. I don't know the terms of his probation. There could very well be something. I would, it's, I would imagine that somebody who is testifying in some type of RICO case

or gang related case would want to keep her identity private. It might not be the case in this situation. But for him to post it, all I'm saying is I think an argument can be made to revoke it may not be successful for the very reasons. you're bringing up. But the bigger question is, what the fuck is young thug doing? Yeah. This is, that it, I, my initial reaction when I saw this was this is, people think they're above the law. I don't, I know he got time served, he got 15 years of probation, um, and he could possibly face another additional 20 years of prison if he violated the terms

of his probation, his agreement, but he got out. And a lot of people didn't think he would get out, right? Because he was facing 120 years. He had been there for such a long time. There seemed to be so much drama and back and forth and, you know, with some of the witnesses and him and all these things surrounding his case. And then all of a sudden it's like they made a deal. He's out. It made me feel like he thinks he's above it all because he didn't get off, but he got out. And my thing to young thug is just leave your life. Why was it even necessary for you to do this? I think he thought he could skirt around the issue by just reposting somebody else's post. And that's problematic. You're out. You're out here living your life. Most people don't even get the opportunity to do that. You did because you could afford a great legal team and maybe because of your notoriety or whatever it may have been.

You got what most people didn't get. And to me, you're playing with it. This also goes to show that... I'm not making excuses for you, I'm not. But this also goes to show that the 15-year... of probation was not given the thug

in good faith from the people down there in Atlantic. You cannot. Fifteen years of probation is fucking crazy. We said that when it was announced. Especially if they're going to come at him

over stuff like this, like actions on Twitter, retweeting stuff. I'm not saying it was a smart thing to do. You are absolutely right. But 15 years of probation, they are looking at. looking for any possible way to go back to jail or to

make sure they don't like the fact that they were completely outmaneuvered and dog walked by his legal team. And they have retribution on their mind down there in Atlanta and they want

to send thug to jail. They want him in prison. So I actually don't see a way that for 15 years Have we even here one? Have we even here one year?

I don't see a way for him not to be violated in 15. I don't see a way. It's impossible with them looking at him like the way they're looking at him, particularly when you look at this right here. Yeah, I mean, when the terms of his release were announced, we said it. We were like 15 years.

This is impossible. It's almost like they're going to let you get a little bit of freedom and taste a little bit of a bit. they're about to snatch it back out because it's so hard because it's not like you and I getting these terms. We, for him, it is going to be very hard. I mean, even for him to be able to go out and promote his rap career or tour, you don't know who's going to show up. You don't know who's, you know what I mean? Who's in the audience?

Who's coming backstage? They are setting him up for failure. But this, this was his own. Like, what were you doing? Just leave it alone. Appreciate that you're out. Is it cause for concern? They're saying that potentially little baby and 4PF.

Oh, yeah. They might be the next to get the RICO. Is it a cause for concern that the officials down in Atlanta seem to be so preoccupied with locking up rappers? Look, I get it. It's definitely something to look at. Crime is crime, right? And you want to keep the streets safe. But God damn, nah.

they seem to be determined, like determined to lock up rappers. And it's a different rapper seemingly every couple months. And all using RICO, I'm thinking about all of these other things that you could RICO. I want to see some Proud Boy Rikos, and I want to see some Rikos involving some white supremacist gangs. I want to see some white-collar Rikos,

all of this stuff, it just seems like the RICO is now being used to attack. And look, once again, not defending lawlessness, but it seems like the RICO is being used to attack the hip-hop community of Atlanta or other states. And I'm wondering, is that the best way to really fight crime? I don't know enough about the cases that, you know, they're investigating little baby. obviously young Doug and everybody affiliated with that whole group YSL. But I don't know enough. But what I will say is if they do charge little baby, they better win.

Because to your point, it looks terrible. It looks, you're building all these cases. You're going after them. You're spending all this time. You're spending all this money. If you charge another rapper and you don't win, I'm looking at it sideways. I'm looking at it. Like, what are we doing here?

But I will say, maybe Thug did not violate the terms of his probation with posting the picture, but I wonder if the DA can make an argument that it's witness, like, it's intimidation. It's like, is there another charge that he could be accused of? Is he manipulating, you know, something in some kind of way? Is he changing the public perception through social media? Is he intimidating? Well, like I said, witnesses. Is there a new charge that could be added?

Is he trying to silence witnesses? Is he obstructing justice? There are all the, I wonder if it's not those terms, but something new that they could try to use to say he violated his probation. If there's a crime, because it's a crime, I'm sure he's violating his probation. Speaking of that, I want to say something real quick before we move on. You know, Bruce Rivers, the criminal lawyer, remember him? We had him on the podcast. He came on to talk about Young Thug one time.

He's the guy on YouTube that does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Man, I was kind of doing some research on a couple of these different cases, and I went to his YouTube, and he lost his son. Oh, my gosh. The son, which was the guy, the gentleman who came up with actually the whole idea for Bruce to get into content.

I watch Bruce's content a lot, and he lost his son. And a couple of months ago, his son, I believe his name was Michael Rivers. I hate to hear that. I hate to hear that. So condolences to the Rivers family. And, you know, I know it must be hard, but awesome to see him still doing his YouTube content and honoring his son and talking about it. He said on one of his last videos, he said, I know people are, they probably don't want me to talk about it as much as I do anymore. He was talking about, you know, what to do if you know somebody with addiction. And just for people who listen to Bruce, Bruce, don't. Talk about it as much as you need to, man. Yeah. As much as you need to. I checked in with them to do some research on this stuff, and I saw that he had lost this on.

It's very, very, very sad, but as much as you need to talk about it, talk about it, man. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

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Trimfaya, including important safety information. Okay, let's do a quick political check-in earlier this week. Senator Cory Booker stood on the Senate floor and he began a speech criticizing the Trump administration and he continued doing that for 25 hours and five minutes. He didn't sit, he didn't eat, he had water and he didn't use the restroom. But what he did do was he broke the record said in 57 by segregationist Strom Thurman. 350 million people tuned in on TikTok Live. Did you guys watch any of it? And do you guys think he wore a diaper or not? Okay, Donnie.

It's a smart thing. Smart thing to do. Donnie. Strong Thurman peed in a bucket. He kept one foot on the Senate floor. And then he peed in a bucket while he was doing his to keep niggas in their place. That's crazy. Strong Thurman confirmed my dad. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on. Before I move on, just saying that

Strom Thurman was trying to keep niggas in there, does that count as race? Yes. Oh, Markets. Good catch. He caught himself. I forgot.

We should have made that announcement. That's right. So what happens, what happens when you do this? Is this the first time on the podcast? Okay, yeah, you didn't do it with Michael Harry. it. You didn't do, okay, all right, all right.

No race. You know what? You got, you're trying to keep, you got three strikes. You got three strikes. This is what happens. This is what happens. If you strike three times, you're out, which means you got to come back to us. You got to come back. That's what that means. Okay. If I get three strikes, I'll take my shirt off on the podcast. No, no, no, you got to come back to us. Titties. Now, I have three strikes and titties. It's got to be something that I don't want to do, and I got to tell y'all something. I don't want to show these titty.

Something's happening to me right now. I literally went to the gym. I'm doing all chest. Something's weird. Something's not right. I don't know. Like something's because I have the same amount of strength in my chest, but I got some heavy hangers right now.

Okay. Okay. You'll take your shirt. Strike one. Strike one. Three strikes, tities, the chain going to sit right between the tities. Nice. Did this, does this matter?

Okay. Yes, it does. And I really hope that you see it that way. Because I thought about you. Because I know you're not big on praising politicians. And here's my concern as some of the rhetoric that I'm seeing surrounding Cory Booker. What Cory Booker did was a protest. And the reason I say it matters is because it was a protest.

constantly sit on this podcast and we talk about what politicians aren't doing or they do things like where it can't take law or seeing we shall overcome and we're like what the hell is going on then you have somebody who you know constantly through his speech beginning and in talked about john lewis talked about causing good trouble and wasn't there to you know he wasn't doing it because he was speaking out against a specific bill. He was doing it to hold space and basically changed the narrative that has been captured by the right. Everything that we're talking about is what the Trump administration is doing and what the Democrats aren't. And he took this opportunity to represent, so to answer your question, symbolically, I think it did mean something. What I fear is not to

throw Donnie under the bus, but something what Donnie said, was he wearing a diaper? A lot of what I'm seeing people talk about is the record that he said, that he didn't drink, didn't take a bathroom break, and almost talk about the surround, like the what, like the theatrics of it, more than what was he trying to achieve? What was the impact of it? You know, he took those 25 five hours and five minutes. And he didn't read a book. He didn't, you know, say the alphabet or other things that you've seen people do. He had, he collected his staff and they prepared for this for at least a week of filling up the binders and specifically addressing things that his constituents had questions about, had concerns about. And he took the time to address it, which is what you want

to see your politician do. You want to see them. The Democrats really have no power right now in Congress. this is something that can be done. So I'm not going to take away from what Cory Booker did because it did mean something. It is something to talk about. And hopefully it lights a fire or is representative to other politicians of what they should be doing and not just holding a place in Congress. Yeah. So I'm not going to take away from it. Yes, it meant something.

All that to say to answer your question, it did. No, it made something. It definitely meant something. but I actually think it meant something because it had some cultural cachet, because it escaped politics. You know, the filibuster itself, I mean, it's not technically a filibuster, but it is a filibuster, it's definitely a filibuster. The filibuster itself and the points that he's speaking to in it are all materially very important, right?

However, the fact that he made news in defiance of Trump's agenda, to me, is the most important thing. Right, correct. So you want the conversations, in my opinion, about whether or not he had a diaper on, about Strom Thurman. You want people to know that Strom Thurman was filibustering the 1957 Civil Rights Act. You want people to know these things. these are things that realign the Democrats as a party that's not going to get walked all over and a party that will do a little bit of walking.

So, you know, call attention to yourselves. The Democrats need to do that. Draw attention to yourselves. Like, you know, AOC and Bernie Sanders doing their fighting oligarchy tour, that matters. The emergence of Chris Murphy as a political figure that might be able to challenge for leadership.

Maybe Corey Booker. We'll be able to challenge for leadership against Cuck Schumer now because he's raised his profile with this a little bit. If the old guard of Democratic leadership will not cede power, maybe they don't even have the necessary stamina to fight anymore. But if they don't seed power, then the AOCs, the Chris Murphys, the Jasmine Crockets, and the Cory Bookers are going to have to take it. And the way that they're going to have to take it is to be more visible, to be more out there, to be more aggressive, and to be more connected to the American people. So I think for all of those reasons, it mattered a lot. It mattered a lot. To me, it didn't answer everything, but it did check some of the boxes of what we've been asking for.

It was creative. I didn't even know that you could do that without arguing against a specific bill. That taught me something. I didn't know that. Yeah. So this was something that I think it's like, okay, a lawyer? I'm not a politician. Yeah.

Tough. Fuck you. All right. Let's talk about podcasts. Ryan Clark had Andrew Sheltz on the pivot, where they talked about Andrews comments last July about dating black women. I know you guys listened. What were some of the else?

Takeaways on the conversation? I'm really interested to know what you thought about this. I really. Okay. I don't want to say much. Why? Why? Well, no, no.

I'm going to explain why. I gave a whole spiel about this specific topic and my issues with Andrew Schultz and how I feel. And I feel like I laid it out very well. When I saw that he was going on the pivot, my first thought is, well, of course you are. Of course you're going to go to a podcast with. that once again isn't with the exact people or the group of people that you offended. We know he just came out with his Netflix tour.

I mean, his Netflix special. He's obviously been going around promoting that among just being a guest. Just being a guest on other pockets. But I have yet to see him have this conversation with a black woman. The issue that people had, and I should say with a black woman

and that's also not your friend. I have yet to see him do this. And I think that if, and I don't want to belabor it, I don't want to keep honing on it, but he did sit down and have this conversation with the guys on the pivot. If you are serious about really addressing

the joke that you made, the impact that it had on the black community, the way it offended black women, the way Kendrick Lamar called you out, then to me, you would sit down with someone. And I believe when we talked about this the last, a black woman, not someone. To me, when we talked about this the last time, I said he should come on a podcast or we should go on flagrant. More than willing to have this conversation.

And I think to me, when I see this, it's like, when I watched this, I watched him, I watched the conversation drift away from the issue. And I watched it be about what Ryan said and how Andrew felt about it. somehow Andrew centered himself in that conversation, which again is problematic. And those guys allowed the conversation to shift that way where it became what Ryan said on the podcast, what Ryan and him talked about before, and them were just addressing that. And the issue was lost to me. And I think that was what Andrew wanted. I think that's purposely, I think it was strategic for him. I think that's purposely why he went on this type of podcast. And I think that what I would say to Andrew is you continue to position your,

yourself as not being something that you really are. The comments that you made, and I'm not, you know, we've had Roy with Jr. on here who says comedians shouldn't apologize for the jokes they made. It's not even that I'm looking for an apology. It's that I'm looking for you, because I know that's not what you're going to get, looking for some sort of acknowledgement without you saying when someone says what black women are, then you say, well, that's my mother, too. Or when someone disagrees with you, then you talk about what they did. And it's this tit for tat rather than really allowing what is being, how people feel to resonate with you and how you're seeing that you are perpetuating harmful stereotypes, rhetoric about black women,

and you continue to do that. And I think that he's continuing to do that in a subtle way by the way that he's handling the conversations thereafter. I still think that he's fucking around. So I watched the whole interview. The interview is classic Andrew. Andrew is an incredibly eloquent speaker. Very smart man. Very smart man.

So in the interview, first of all, the way I took this, the interview was about, it wasn't about specifically the joke. No, it wasn't. It seemed like it was more about the back and forth between Ryan and Andrew. So, and I don't think, I think that was the intent. I don't think that he was. Interesting.

The first question was about the joke. Well, because you have to get the joke out of the way for them to really litigate what their issues are. So that, going on that podcast to me was more about them talking about what was going on. really they centered them because that's what kind of it was about. Here's the thing now. By the way, I have no problem with that because he wouldn't have been going on there had Ryan not came out and said something about the joke. If you want to have a specific problem about the joke,

then you really couldn't do that on the pivot. You would have to do that with a black woman outside of your sphere. The joke is going to be a part of the conversation on the pivot. But then when you look at what they're going to talk about on the pivot, they're going to talk about whether or not Ryan was looking for cloud. They're going to talk about whether or not Andrew is a racist

or has a problem with black women or whether or not the back and forth the jokes that Andrew was making about Ryan were above board. They're going to have all those conversations. This is why, when I say that it was classic Andrew, I mean,

there was a little bit of really eloquent speech from him on how he looks at things and how he looks at comedy. there was a little bit of conning. He conned them a little bit. I think he shifted the conversation, but yeah, keep going. Well, he did. He shifted the conversation because here's the thing.

And this is my deal. There is, so if you talk specifically about, I'll go to something very, very direct. So Andrew is talking about this. He says, the first thing I did after you guys said, after Ryan said what he said about the joke was I went through all of your videos

to see if you had ever interviewed anyone that was accused of domestic violence. Now, if we are to play a purity game, who's pure enough to say, hey, I don't like you talking about my mama. If we are to play a purety game,

purity game, which is what I continue to say, then that makes sense to do that. But if you're actually trying to understand what problem somebody has with something, then you wouldn't do that, right? And by the way, I know, and you know, that Ryan Clark was motivated, and he says it, to actually address Andrew Schultz, because of the women in his. life that asked him to do that. Do you know any women personally that might have asked Ryan Clark to address Andrew Shilts? I'm trying to think if I did.

I don't know if I did, but I said you should probably talk about this. And by the way, I'll say again. I'll say again. I'll say again, it's not just Rachel. is when I'm telling you Molly from P68 Rachel Nina like I'm naming Nes Kalika

every single black woman that I know and I know other people close to Andrew that had the same situation were like yo what the fuck is he doing for whatever reason they did not like that shit and by the way

if we are looking for the picture perfect, unbelievably pure, above reproached black man to say, I don't,

I don't like you dissing my mama and my sister or I have to speak up for women who, we're not going find them. We're not going to find them.

Like, we're not going to find them, right? Andrew's a Trump voter. I know that he believes that Donald Trump isn't a perfect person. You would have to believe

that, right? However, he's still cast a vote for Donald Trump to run the country. So I don't need to go on flagrant. I don't need to go on flagrant. If I haven't been invited on Flagrin, by the way, I wouldn't have no problem.

I've been on Flagrant before. But what I'm saying is, if the conversation is to be had, it is to be had with someone like you to that point. Now, that would be a specific conversation about the joke. itself and how it makes people feel. That would be that. That's not what I feel like this

conversation on the pivot was about. This conversation was partly about that, but only as the impetus to what made Ryan and Andrew have some animus between. Well, I disagree. This is where I disagree with you. The first question

that was asked was about the joke. Brian did a whole thing to Andrew Schultz on his podcast prior to this, talking about the joke. To me, that was the reason for him to come on the podcast. Like, to talk about the joke, I think Andrew shifted the conversation by saying things like, well, my mother who immigrated here has basically, I understand all the things that black women stand for. And my mother stands for those things too. That's a shift. Him saying he went through all

the videos to see who they brought on the podcast that abused women. That's a shift. the things that he was saying to me were either, I'm not going to say they were red herrings, but they were definitely to shift the conversation to not just be about the joke. I think the conversation should have been exactly what Ryan said when he said he was, he said the reason that he talked about it

is because women were telling him, black women were telling him to do so. I think that is all that the conversation should have been, or at least majority of the conversation. Surely it would have moved on to other things. They're talking about their issues, though. And the joke is the impetus of their issue. But, I mean, they eventually got into all kinds of different things.

They're going to interview Andrew Schultz right now. That's naturally going to happen. But I think he did. When I'm talking about, to your point, Ryan isn't even equipped to do that. I mean, you're saying that. You're saying Ryan isn't even equipped to dive. I'm saying he's not a black woman. Right.

And that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that he's not equipped. He can talk about anything. When I say equipped, I don't mean equipped from the standpoint that he can't have a conversation with Andrew Schultz about that. I'm saying he's not a black woman. So it's kind of not his conversation to have. What they're going to talk about, to your point, what they're going to talk about was their issues. I thought that was appropriate.

But if Andrew wants to have a conversation about how the joke made black women feel, then he would have to have that conversation with the black woman. Yeah, it's just everything that's going around on social. It's like, oh, they hashed it out over, you know. They hashed it out before in a text message before he even came on the podcast, which is why he came on the podcast because you knew it was going to be a friendly space. My issue with Andrew is he positions himself like he is somebody that cares about the issues of black women. And he really doesn't.

That's my biggest thing. I don't see a difference between him and Tony Hinchcliffe. I really don't from the way that they vote to the race jokes and race humor that they make. I think Andrew, because he's got podcast and sits across from somebody who's black, he said on this podcast with the pivot, oh, you should come to my shows. It's the most culturally diverse shows. I think he does not want to position himself that way, but I'm trying to find, I don't find a difference

between those two comedians. Things are the same. Interesting. Well, look, the invitation is out there, you know, did you hit him up? No. I hit him up and was like, we're going to talk about it. And he was like, you hit him up? Did you hit him up? No.

You didn't want to hash it out on text? I put you on text before. I didn't save the number. I didn't save the number. I'm not, to me, if you care, you have my number. Let's set it up. I'm not the one who needs to be instigating it. Like, I said my, I said what I said.

You don't care. Look. He thinks he went on a black podcast and cleared his name. Well, I mean, last thing I'll say about before, I, we move off of it. I do think it's interesting that the conversation happened in the first place. I think that this comedy special is by far. I mean, Andrews everywhere, you see him everywhere.

This is a big, huge moment in this career. I think that this issue is a little bit of an albatross for him. It's interesting seeing him feel the need to actually, if not clear, his name, set the record straight on who he is. I've known him for a long time. And a lot of the conversations that we had in the past were conversations where we were in direct political and cultural opposition on things. And, you know, he just wanted.

of the, there's not a lot of people who have been around for a long time and, and, and know a lot of people that don't have a problematic white boy or two in the crew, right? It's like, I'm just being honest. You know what I'm saying? So it's, and when I say problematic, I mean, somebody you always disagree with with politics, somebody that you always disagree with on this, somebody that says something and you're like, you, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

However, if those thoughts or opinions actually undergird an actual worldview or a way of performing your art that then penetrates and becomes relevant to a larger audience of people, the larger you get, you only have two choices. One is to sort of deal with the views or the way that you look at things or to try to maneuver around them or to negotiate them. Right. That's the only way. And I don't think that maybe he thought or maybe other people around him thought that this would be as big of a deal as it is. Well, because he always has. Well, being the racist comedian is probably something that he's actually not comfortable with

in a real way. He's probably not comfortable with that. Look, and let me say something else. Even when he was on the movie, you people, that's the character that he played. That's what he played. Yeah, like, why you think you were cast to play that type of character, that's what you are.

Let me say something else. Let me say something else. And let me just be totally real, all the way real. I'm going to keep it real on this, and I'm going to always be honest about the conversations that I've had with them or how I've known them. But just to be real,

knowing somebody or, like, going back as far with somebody was not, like, super far, but you meet somebody 2013, 2014. My first podcast appearance ever was on The Brilliant Idiots. Alex Thomas had me on this podcast, too. I got a shout out to Alex Thomas,

but was on The Brilliant. it is. So it is difficult for me not to see Andrew blowing up like this and not feel good about it. I'll just be honest with you. It's difficult for me to see Andrew. You have a personal relationship. Yeah, it's difficult for me to see him to know somebody

when they were playing the Hollywood improv and then see somebody like go at their career in a certain way and, you know, experience some pitfalls and all of that stuff and then see them sell out Madison Square Guard and not be like, damn.

Like, I remember going to pick him up from the airport. You know what I'm saying? So it's difficult for me to see him and not be proud of everything that he's accomplished and not be proud that he's married and proud that he has a kid and proud that his life seems to be moving in a right direction. There's all kinds of things that, you know, have happened. And you know about him. Me and him are not friends right now.

But as he would say on the phone, on the telephone call that we had and we got into a very long and kind of at times he did a telephone call after we did the last podcast that we did. Even if we're not friends right now, we would at the least be colleagues that have known each other for a long time probably was a point where we were a little bit more friendly. But having said that,

that don't change the bottom line calculus of what's happening. It just doesn't. The bottom line calculus is this. for certain people characterizing black women in a specific way in a way that denigrates them not that these people are perfect

not that I'm perfect not that I've been perfect with black women not that I haven't cheated on black women not that I haven't been a part of jokes or not always been but I care about the safety of black women moving throughout the world

I do and what we'll say Look, you can say whatever you want. Say, Van, you've been with white women before. You can say Van, you've, like you were on TMZ. You can say Van, you, like, watch pornography. And the pornography that you watch denigrates women. You can say all of that.

And all of it will be true. But the bottom line is this. I want black women to be able to move throughout the world safely, safely. And if that means I have to take myself to task, if that means I have to take black men to task, if that means I have to take people that I know the task sometimes or have conversations with them, then I'm willing to do that.

Not because I'm any better than anyone. Not because I am holier than anyone. Not because I am better behaved than anyone. not because I am pure, all right? I'm not the perfect evangelist for none of the shit that y'all are talking about. I'm not.

I don't know anybody who is, but it's definitely not fucking me. The only thing I am is concerned. And honestly, that's all you have to be. All you have to be is concerned. That's it. That's it. And if you're not concerned,

then fucking. Then stop trying to pretend, like you are. No, no, no. I'm not talking about even him specifically now. I'm talking about in general. Sorry.

If you're not concerned, then fuck it. Don't be concerned. Fuck it. You don't have to be. By the way, just so everybody watching and listening,

you don't have to care. You don't have to give a fuck. You don't. You don't have to care. And a lot of people don't. But if you do care, even if you care badly, my man Kern,

we get up, move off this I know a brilliant artist His name is Jonathan Kermen Right And he works right here at the ring A brilliant artist Great

Brilliant artist I went to hear Jonathan Do his poetry And Kermm did a poem A poem called I'm a walking contradiction And he goes I don't remember all of it

But he goes I'm a walking contradiction Contradition He goes a future in my playlist, bell hooks on my shelf, you know, I'm a walking contradiction.

Like, I hate my dad, but would love it if he called. You know what I mean? So, and I'm listening to him, I'm like, just a young man in the world going, hey, I'm not perfect

or at my best all the time, but God damn it, I want to do my best. And I want the best. for you. So look, I might post that poem, by the way, by Kerm. Kerm is a fucking G. You remember I got to hear him too. I didn't even know. Kerm is a fucking G. So all I'm saying is like, don't feel like or don't let anybody make you feel like you have to have a complete clean slate to want to go clean something up. It's just not true. And at my most cynical, I'll look at it like it's a trick bag. Like it's out.

actually a distraction from either you wanting things to be better or from you wanting yourself to be better. All right. Don't hold yourself up to be better than no one. You're not holding than anybody. You're not more perfect than anyone. You're not any of that stuff. But if you want things to be better and you're not perfect, that's completely okay. Completely okay. All right, Donnie, last one. All right, let's close out with Rachel's list. We've teased this. Oh, I want to do Anthony Edwards, bro. Okay. Okay. I just got to say, I got a, sorry. My list. My list is in conjunction with his BBL. So they go together, right?

That's the whole reason I had a big, big dick energy list. So we can save it. Okay. I want to do Anthony Edwards. Let's do Anthony Edwards. The mother of one of his kids has denied rumors that have been going around that he requested to pay 18 years of child support up front. Aisha Howard, who also has a baby with little baby,

said that there are no court documents, motions, or proceedings that have occurred. nor have I been offered or agreed to such terms. I came to the situation with the status because I have a child by a very successful artist, right? From then, I am viewed as a certain type of woman because I am beautiful and have a nice body. And normally women like that attract a certain caliber of men, which is also not my fault. Thoughts on the drama. So then he doesn't, he's not paying the, uh, it hasn't been confirmed. So she's saying it's not true.

So it's just a rumor right now. What has been confirmed is that he is the father of three children with three different women in the last year. All right, man. So look, once again, I'm not judging Anthony Edwards' moral compass, like I said, in no position to. But I'll say this. If Anthony Edwards wants to be a huge NBA multimedia superstar, he has got to start moving different. He's got to be better than this, okay? So forget about the women.

Don't forget about him. But aside from the women that have had babies for him, there are also women that have produced text messages with Anthony Edwards to, asking them to have abortions and the whole send-the-video thing and even conversations with this woman where it looked like he was pressuring her to have an abortion. And look, I get it. He didn't want to have a kid with her. He didn't want to have a kid with the other lady.

Okay. But I'm telling you, if Anthony Edwards, he's at a crossroads in his life right now, this is not me coming to him saying, hey, brother, be better because you shouldn't be out there having sex with women and doing all of that stuff. He's 22, 23 years old.

There's a part of him that's going to go out and he's going to fuck with chicks. That's the way that it is. But if he cares about his life moving forward, his earning potential, if he cares about being a man, and if he cares about the amount of responsibility that he's putting on his plate and how he is comporting himself, he has got to do better.

You can't be the face of the league and the dick of Instagram at the same time. You can't be. You're either going to be the face of the NBA or you're going to be the dick of Instagram. You can't be both of them. So if you care about everything that you could be, I don't know what's going on with these young guys in the NBA now. If you look at Ant, if you look at Zion, if you look at even Jai to a degree.

And once again, I'm not judging these young men's moral compass. I'm not judging their moral compass. They're kids. I'm judging the way they're comporting themselves and the situations that they're getting themselves into. Should I be able to tell somebody, hey, not a good idea to go get that many women pregnant. Should I tell somebody? Hey, not a good idea to do some of the, yeah, cool, I could. I'm not judging them, though.

I don't want to judge them. But what I do want to say is take your fucking future and who you are seriously. Take the stature that you have seriously. Take the impact that you could potentially have. seriously, take yourself seriously. And it doesn't seem like Anthony Edwards is. So Anthony Edwards has already come out and said he does not want to be the face of the league. It doesn't matter.

But you said either this or that. It matters in the sense of, it's not saying he doesn't have the talent to be it or he could. He has no desire to. So every way that, by his own words, so every way he moves is in opposition of that. except on the court. Every way he moves outside of it, he don't want, okay, a little bit on the court too.

He doesn't want that. So, you know, my issue with him, and, you know, to still your words, it's not that I'm judging him, but I have an issue with, I do have an issue with you making a baby and then get him mad

when the girl wants to keep it. Strap up. And he's young, doesn't want to, whatever reason, I don't know. But you mad and hurt for keeping it. But you also didn't strap up. So I have an issue.

Let's just say this 18 years thing is true. Or it was some type of suggestion or maybe an offer where he offered to pay $5,000 a month for 18 years, a little over a million dollars. It was like, go do something with the don't want anything to do with the kid. That in itself is sad. That is terrifying and it's sad. I agree. You have no desire to be a part of that child. You're cheating the child like an animal you can just.

return back to the pound. It's such a disgusting way to think. So I am going to judge you for that. If that's true, she's saying it's not. But just that mentality, because you can, it goes to what I was saying. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Okay, it goes back full circle to what I was saying about alimony.

Just because you have the money to pay off for the baby for a year, like if that becomes true and that child reads about how you were, he was so disposable to you, and basically you said his life was worth a million and something dollars, that is psychologically so messed up for you to have that mentality and for that child to have to endure that. And for the mother. Like, it's just... You don't want of my homeboys sell me? He's like, I never forget this. I can't believe I haven't brought this up before. He said that his dad didn't check in on him because he was ordinary. And I was like, what you mean?

And he said, so, you know, his pops was around. He said, if I'd have been scoring 60 points a game from McKinley, he'd have checked in on me. Because then I'd have been somebody that he could offer him something. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't live without. Like, whatever. He goes also, if I'd have killed.

killed 60 niggas in the street or been on drugs, he might have checked in on me. Because then his guilt would have compelled him to be like, maybe the mama comes and he brings him to him. I'm telling you what he's saying. He goes, then the mama comes and the mama brings you to him. Your son is a savage. You about to lose him.

He about to be a corpse and the whole nine. Then he checks in on me. But he goes, I was just to see. student. I was fine. I was fed. I was okay in school. I wasn't going off to do nothing crazy. I wasn't doing anything crazy good. I wasn't doing anything crazy bad. So I was stable enough to be ignored. I was okay enough to know that you didn't have to check in to be ignored. there was nothing that you had to do. You didn't have to show pride in me

and you didn't have to come save me. So you don't get to beat your chest like Superman because of what I could do and you don't have to be Superman and come save me. You could just not come to graduation and I was still going to walk across the stage. And I just think about all of these men out here that are producing these kids

and don't give a fuck to know or be. be around them. I'm not saying that Anthony Edwards is going to do that. It seems that if you're paying all the child support up front that you don't want anything to do with the mother, you don't want anything to do with the mother. I wonder how your relationship with the kid would be. But I'm just saying, fuck, man. Well, he did say in a text message. Like, basically, you're just going to have a kid. He said, I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, oh, so you're just going to have a kid that ain't going to have no father in his life. That's what you want to do. Kind of like, like he has said,

I am not going to be around. At least specifically, to her, this woman involved. That's what he said. All right, you have this baby. You go have this baby by yourself. Like, that... Right. A lot of times that changes when the kid gets there,

but then sometimes it doesn't. Man. It's just, I would just say that, man, is so many people that have talent and have drive and have opportunity that somewhere wishing that they took it all a little bit more seriously. It took themselves a little bit more seriously.

Yeah. Just take yourself, take your future, take it all seriously. I'm not telling you not to have the pool party and do all this. I'm not telling you not to do that. I'm telling you to take yourself seriously, man, and take, I don't know, Doc. All right. Whatever. Oh, the OG is popping out.

The OG. What you mean? Like OG, like me being an OG. Oh, okay. I can't judge you. You're an OG now? You're an OG now? because your birthday's coming up.

I'm 45. About to be 45. Damn. Territory. Fuck you. We ought to hear, man. We ought to go. Live show.

Live show. Live show. Don't forget, guys, get your tickets. When is it? You never know who will show up. You never know. That's a live show. The show is at the historic.

Armacy Theater. Monday, May 12th. Maybe a special guest will join us to. You never know what kind of guess we might have. It might be Kim Jong-il. Who could we got? Vladimir Putin. Putin could be on the show. Steve Bannon, you never know who's going to join us here on. Andrew Shultz. You never know. Tickets go on sale Monday, April 7th at 10am Eastern at the ringer.com slash events. Again, live at the Gramercy Theater on May 12th.

And you get tickets beginning this Monday at theringer.com backslash events. Take thin caps off. Do not stop winning. I am Van Lathie Jr. I am Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys.