Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Dr. Ibram X. Kendi on the Black Experience in America and How to Be an Antiracist

Episode Date: February 17, 2021

Dr. Ibram X. Kendi joins Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay to discuss the seemingly slowing trend of white allyship, how he would make the case to white people that they need to care about racism, how the new administration can tackle racism, what a reparations package could look like, and his new book, ‘Four Hundred Souls.’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can you hear me now? Look at that background. Jesus, look at those books. Wow. God damn. Wow. Stunning on you. Stunting on you.

Remember that scene? Actually, go ahead and roll right now, Jackson. You rolling? Yeah, we're rolling. Remember that scene in Goodwill Hunting, where Will Hunting goes in there and he's looking at all the books that Robin Williams carries?

He's like, have you read all of these books? He had to read all of those books. I just want everybody that's watching on YouTube to look behind Dr. Kendi right there and all of the books that he's got up there. I bet you, Dr. Ibram Kendi, that you have read every single one of those books behind you, have you not? Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis

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I have. Yes. Don't be, you say it with your whole chest, Dr. Kennedy. Don't you differently ashamed. Listen, if you happen to be listening to this podcast right now and you are a racist, listen up. Because you might just learn from Dr. Ibram Kendi who joins us today on Higher Learning.

how to be an anti-racist, because he wrote that fantastic book and has, actually, would you say you've dedicated your life to educating people into how they can help to destroy racism here in America? Would you say that that's a fair assessment of what it is, of who you are and what it is that you do? Yeah, I would say certainly educating people and then even putting in place policies that can create more equitable and just sort of society. So let me ask you a question then. I am from South Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So I haven't seen much racism with a little R.

I've seen the capital R racism. I've seen the racisms that make people go, damn, for real? Just to my face? So my question is, your book, How to Be an Anti-Racist, obviously very, very successful New York Times, bestselling author, Dr. Ibron Kennedy

joins us today. Is it even possible with all of the entrenched white supremacy, the entrenched systemic racism, the entrenched white privilege that America seems to have been founded on and seems to thrive off of? Is it even possible to have anti-racist in this society who are white and to have a society that is anti-racist? Is it possible for white people to be anti-racist with everything they're up against? Well, I think it is possible. And I also think we should believe it's possible. There was a time in this country's history

where people thought it was impossible to eliminate slavery. They thought it was impossible that white folks could be abolitionists calling for immediate emancipation as William Lloyd Garrison and other. eventually did. But I think eventually even white folks began to realize how slavery was holding back white folks, you know, in the way the collateral damage of even racist policies, whether it's voter suppression or even police violence, are killing and suppressing white folks too. And so I think there's a growing awareness among white folks that, hey, you know what, climate change is disproportionately bad for the global south where people of color primarily live, but it's also bad for us white

folks too. And I think, so there are some white folks who are striving to be anti-racist from a genuine sort of place. And then there are others who hopefully realize it's in their self-interest because that's where this nation is headed. And it's certainly not going to be the case that a majority of folks who, majority of folks of color are going to be willing to faith and sort of have to endure the knee of white supremacy for too much longer. Dr. Kenny, I don't know if you can tell, but Van and I aren't the most optimistic people. I don't know if you've gathered that. You're not, Van.

You are not. I don't know if you've gathered that from the short time that you've been speaking with us. I haven't gathered that at all. But I, you do seem to be that person. And during the Black Lives Matter protest and what we saw a lot this summer, we saw a lot. we saw a mass of white people who were suddenly getting invested in being anti-racist and how can I be an ally. I'm listening and I'm learning. I'm here.

I'm supporting. I'm silencing myself to amplify your voice. They were buying your books and among other books. They were taking to the streets. But since then, we've really seen that trend slow down. And I've used the word trend because the question for you is, do you think being an anti-racist? racist is a trend because it has seemed to slow down. And the same momentum that we had this summer, I'm not seeing it in 2021.

Well, I think those Americans who last summer were presenting themselves as anti-racist and who are now thinking that the problem were those demonstrators who wanted to do crazy things to fund the police, they were just performing. And they were able to be susceptible because they weren't serious to the counter sort of attack on the demonstrators and the demonstrations that ultimately stated that the problem isn't police violence, the problem isn't racism. The problem are these demonstrators themselves, who are violent, who are destroying this country,

who are anarchists. And so many white folks bought that lie, such that, you know, I think at the height of the protest in June, I think one poll found that 76% of Americans, including a majority of white Americans, were recognizing that racism was a big problem. by the end of the summer, that percentage had declined double digits. And it just goes to show that many of those folks were just talking.

And again, you know, reverted back to this normality that the problem isn't racism, that the problem is black people and the people who are fighting for black people. So I recently did a podcast. I did a podcast called The Fifth Column. and I went back and forth with a gentleman named Kamel Foster. Are you familiar with this gentleman? I've heard of, yeah. Yes.

Kamel Foster, during that interview, him and I went back and forth. He speaks from the worldview. He doesn't identify as black. He doesn't think that race has any problems in the, excuse me, race doesn't have any place in the discussion of American systemic dysfunction. He doesn't think. And me and him volleyed that back and forth. from opposite sides.

For someone that has that worldview, you even actually brought your name up on the podcast, which is kind of like a coincidence. For someone that has that worldview, how would you make the case? Because I tried, and, you know, it was collegial, and I don't think a lot of people got a lot of it. But I'm hearing that more often.

I'm hearing that bringing up race in the workplace actually leads to poor outcomes amongst the morale of people that work together. Like all of the diversity training and things like that, you hear those things lobbed against the idea that we should even really be talking about this stuff as much as we do. Now, obviously, the people on this call know how important it is to talk about it. But how would you make the case to someone who might be more on Kamel's side of things or somebody who's white and in their workplace and just don't want to have to sit through something where they have to learn how to talk to their black coworkers? What would you say to them?

Why is it important? Well, I mean, those who argue that diversity training or attempts to make our workplaces more anti-racists are actually harming the workplaces themselves are simply, you know, I mentioned just talking. You know, those folks are just talking. There's no evidence that supports it. And indeed, all the evidence points to more diverse and inclusive and equitable workplaces are more possible. productive, more efficient, more profitable. You know, every sort of measure a company or an organization typically measures its success by those that are that are able to build diverse and inclusive sort of teams and build anti-racist culture is actually much more effective.

Now, of course, there are people right now who do not believe that. It's just inconceivable that somehow you bring in folks of color and you'll be better. That just goes against the racist ideas that have been taught to them, including black folk. And so I think that that's, but the way, what I would say to those folks, it's typically when folks make that case, they come from two vantage points. Either they say it's not about race, it's about class. or they say it's not about race because, you know, race doesn't exist scientifically. Or I should add a third position they say, well, you know, it's not about race and racism because it doesn't exist. And so depending on what they're arguing, if they're arguing that, so you're saying racism doesn't exist and they're like, yes.

So then I ask, okay, why is it that black folks are twice as likely to be unemployed as white folks? And then they typically give a racist reason to argue that racism doesn't exist by saying, well, black folks are lazy. They don't want to work. They prefer welfare overwork. So in that case, they're using racism to argue racism doesn't exist. Or when they say, well, we just shouldn't talk about race and identify by race because, you know, we don't exist scientifically. then I would add, so if we don't identify by race, how are we going to collect racial data? And if we don't collect racial data, how are we going to see racial disparities?

And if we don't see racial disparity, how are we going to see the practices and policies that are racist that are behind those disparities? And so effectively, you want a world where you have all these racial disparities, but no one can see them, let alone eliminate them. And that's actually the final solution to racism itself. And thirdly, when they argue about class, I asked them, well, how do you explain that the children of black millionaires are more likely to be incarcerated than the children of high school dropout that are white? Then how do you, if it's about class, how do you explain? Wait, what? Is that a real stat? Yes. You know, how do you, how do you explain that?

Dr. Doctor, could you restate that really quickly? just just I am so sorry to interrupt you brother I am so sorry could you restate that before I fucking lose my mind could you restate that really quickly for people sure so the children

black male children of a millionaire black families are more likely particularly with the millennial generation to be in incarcerated than the white male children of working class white families. And a recent study that actually was published two years ago in the New York Times sort of tracked that and made that case and showed that data to support it.

And I just was going to add another thing about class. You know, why is it that black women with college degrees are more likely to die in pregnancy than white women who haven't even graduated from high school. Why is it that white people, white families who have not even graduated from high school have on average more well than black college dropout? Again, if it's not about class. You know, Dr. Kendi, people are very hopeful with the new administration coming in. Question I have is, how can the new administration be anti-racist? What are some steps or some tactics that they can implement to be that? So I think the new administration needs to track racial data and make the

determination that if black folks right now or Latinx folks are less likely to be vaccinated, then it's because there's something wrong. And it's not black and Latinx folks. There's something wrong with the way cities and states and even the federal government is rolling out vaccines. But also, something as simple as I'm mentioning sort of COVID-19, you know, one of the things that Biden administration has said consistently is unlike the Trump administration, we're going to put science before politics. All I'm asking is for them to put science before politics when it comes to race and racism. for them to not think about what's going to alienate white swing voters or white moderates or even white conservatives, for them to think about, okay, what can eliminate the problem of police violence and institute and push those policies?

But I think too often, even Democrats have been more worried about politics than science in what's been proven to work, which is why even Democrats, have failed to bring relief to two black people. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis,

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What are the answers to those questions? And I think that's something that within our community, we have to kind of grapple with, which is what is it that we're asking for? What do we ask for? So if you're asking the question about, you know, how to bridge this gap, if you're talking about specifics to politicians,

If I were going to give you a magic wand and let you implement policy that you feel, that you feel like would shrink the gap, that would affect communities. I was about to say communities of color. I particularly mean black communities in this particular case. And I'm going to say that because that's okay to say, people. It's okay to say black communities. Shout out to my Latin ex and my indigenous brothers and sisters. I'm just saying we're talking about black people.

So if you could wave that magic wand, and affect communities what would it look like? What would the solution to this decades old, hundreds of year old problem of American racism look like?

What would the solutions look like to you? So, I mean, let's talk about politics and economics, which are both critically important to black folks and other folks. When it comes to politics, we should first and foremost, why can't we have a system in which people have guaranteed the right to vote?

In other words, it's not a privilege as it currently is that can be taken away. It's a right that can't be taken away. Once you turn a certain age, it was up to me, 16, but the way it is now 18, you're automatically able to vote. You're automatically registered. Nobody, you don't have to re-register when you move to a different city or a different state. is a federal sort of form of registration. We also would thereby vote always on federal holidays where everyone would have the ability to vote.

In other words, if they need to take off from work, they wouldn't have to, quote, take off from work because work would give them that day off and it would be paid. But then also, you know, we would be able to completely eliminate money from politics. In other words, all politicians would be publicly financed. What that means is right now you have this massive racial wealth gap. And so when white people have 10 times more wealth, they have expendable money that they can use on politicians to get what's best for them, you know, as wealthy white folks.

But if politicians could not be bought and sold, as they are now, if they actually cared more about votes than what gets them votes, which is money, then they would be more focused on doing what's best for everyday people. And so to learn black history is to learn the history of black votes being suppressed. And so we have to eliminate that possibility, or even when it comes to economic, What's fascinating is that I just have yet to hear a policy proposal that has the ability to reduce, let alone eliminate the racial wealth gap other than reparation. And I just don't know of any other plan that has that capability. And when you talk about the racial wealth gap, wealth is inherited.

It's passed on. And so what happens is literally the racial wealth gap is probably the best approximation of the compounding effects of racism for 400 years in this country. And so we have to as a nation come to grips with that. And I think reparations, you know, can do that. You want to say a love? Oh, I know it. I knew a baby was coming. Oh my God.

What a beautiful. Did I just get baby fever? Yes, we both did. I did. So cute. So cute. All right. This might be the answer to the question I'm about to ask you.

I was going to say, Dr. Kendi, you have to be exhausted for all the work that you do, for constantly answering these type of questions for people. being the go-to, especially, you know, that people seem to be more active about being anti-racist. I'm wondering for you, when you feel defeated, because I'm sure there are days that you do, how do you overcome that? And I'm sure that there are other people who are listening to this podcast, black people who feel the same way. What do you do to keep going and get past that? So I think I tried to find inspiration and energy sort of all around me. you know, whether it's flicking on social media and seeing a funny and, you know, video of a woman who glued her hair down and just thinking about just the deep humanity of that and feeling for her, right?

And it just gets you, you know, you think you got problems. or, you know, seeing the unbelievable courage that just everyday people exhibit, you know, in their life, I'm constantly fueled by, you know, by people, by humor, by courage. And, and I, you know, I try to allow that to continuously, to continuously fuel me. All right. Last question for me, because you, you said the R word. reparations. You said the R word, reparations. Which is both incredibly unpopular in

general American society. Did all the poll in this show. It's a very unpopular idea. On both sides of the aisle, by the way, this is not a liberal or conservative sort of sticking point here. They equally hate reparations. Okay. What does a reparations

package look like to you? since we know that reparations has the ability to sort of decrease that gap or close that gap more to the point in wealth, what does a package look like to you? What it would look like to me is there are two ways in which the racial wealth gap exists. It's certainly within individual and it's within community. And so we would essentially seek to repair and provide funding for black folks and black communities to build wealth. And it would specifically be geared to wealth-building activities that then would be geared to eliminating this racial wealth gap. How that is done, you know, is, I think, a different sort of question.

But for me, I'm not, I'm less interested in sort of handing out checks to people and more interested in ensuring sort of wealth building and wealth maintenance, you know, within the black community that then can allow black people, particularly from the standpoint of wealth to be equal with other groups of people. Now, look, there's something, before we let you get out of here, there's something over your, I guess it's your right shoulder. Right there, that's your right shoulder right there. 400 souls. You got a new book dropping. 400 souls. Tell us a little bit about your brand new one.

Yeah, so Keisha Blaine and I, a co-editor, we assembled an incredible community of writers. We actually assembled 80 writers, each of whom tackled five years of, of African American history amounting to 400 years, and they each wrote these short pieces that sort of braid together into a narrative. And then we also assemble 10 poets.

And so at the end of every 40-year section, there's a poem that really wraps up and really reflects on those 40 years. And in many ways, this community of writers is almost like a choir. And of course, we needed those soloists, those poets. But we thought, what better way to commemorate this symbolic 400th birthday, you know, of Black Americans, then to bring together a community to write the history of a community.

One thing I want to say before you go, I saw that you have some new projects with Netflix coming up. What can you tell us about them? Oh, can you tell us something? We get money. Yeah, that's got Netflix money, bad. Netflix. And more than one project, Dr. Candy. Yeah, so yeah, it's exciting.

My book Stamped from the Beginning, working with Netflix and partnering with them, and of course, Roger Ross Williams and Mara Brock Akeel to put together a doc feature based on stamp in the beginning, which was an inherited history of racist ideas. And then also a doc short based on stamps, racism, anti-racism, the U, which is the YAA version. And then working with Chris Ney, who's the creator of Doc McSuffin,

to sort of recreate anti-racist baby, which is the sort of book, this children's book is really built around these nine steps and making each of these nine steps into animated shorts for children. And so, yeah, I'm excited about those projects, you know, with Netflix. and it's really about making this history, this information, you know, anti-racism, more accessible to everyday people. Amazing. Thank you.

By the way, I'm not a fan of Doc McSuffis. Don't like it. I don't know why. My niece was watching it one time, and the bear came and the bear had, like, I guess the bear in Dr. McSuffis, I think he had a torn rotator cuff. His arm was hanging out and the stuffing was coming out and the dock was getting them together. I'm like, I don't know about this. Like, I don't know.

I feel too much for the bear. Black female doctor. Stop. I like it, but I don't want to watch Gray's Anatomy as a little kid. It's like, I feel for the bear. It's stuffing, man. It's stuffing.

All right. Shout out to Doc, Ms. Stuffis. Hope you doing anything. I don't know where you went to middle school, by the way. All right. So, uh, April Kennedy, thank you for joining us to Dale,

on higher learning, continue to do the things that you are doing, continue to educate. As long as you keep doing it, we'll keep supporting you, brother. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, man.

I'm Rachel. You all take care. You too. All right. Bye-bye.