Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Dr. Ilyasah Shabazz and the Legacy of Malcolm X

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

Van and Rachel welcome author, activist, and daughter of Malcolm X, Dr. Ilyasah Shabazz, to discuss her father’s autobiography, 60 years after its first publication. Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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show today. I don't know if she likes being referred to like that, but Dr. Ilaosha Shabazz joins us today. She is an author, an academic. The third daughter of Malcolm X and Betty Chabas, she's written several great books growing up X. She wrote a children's book called Malcolm Little, the boy who grew up to become Malcolm X. The awakening of Malcolm X, she wrote, and she's here to talk about the autobiography of Malcolm X, which is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year. Actually, that says 40th. Wait a minute.

1965. That's 60th. This birthday, you said? No, the autobiography of Malcolm X was published in October 1965. So that's the 60th. But the book is for his birthday. For his birthday. The book is for his birthday.

So she's here to talk to us about not only her life, but the tremendous legacy of her family and her father. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning, Dr. Chavez. Well, thank you. It's such an honor. You know, I listen to you guys. I watch you guys all the time. And it is truly an honor to be on your program.

Thank you. So we got copies of the book. It's a book that I've read, the autobiography of Malcolm X. It's a book that I've read, I don't want to say how many times, a lot of times. Like, so, you know. why is it as important today as it's ever been because I feel that it is? Well, my father's legacy helps to shape human possibility, right? I was just rereading the autobiography and, you know, it's every time I read it,

it seems to highlight something that's even more important than the last time I've read it. When I read about chapter, from chapter 10 onwards, for me today, it says, you know, this is our history. These are the things that have happened. It's important to know that so that we know how to move forward with human possibility. It's a classic, and it tells a story for all of us to understand. Yeah, it's really interesting because growing up, I feel like at least the school I went to, they teach you one thing. And they tried to put, and we've talked about it on our podcast, you know, Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., against each other. But as you get older, you really learn what things were really about.

And as when you think about your father's legacy, which parts do you feel are most enduring and which parts do you feel are most overlooked? This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer.

Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Well, you know, my father was in his 20s when the world learned of him. And it was during the height of the civil rights movement. My father came along and said, we demand our human rights as your brother.

There's no asking, right? We demand our human rights as ordained by God. And it's understanding where we were psychologically, socially, you know, It wasn't only blacks who had been miseducated for hundreds of years. But, you know, our whole country, white people, yellow people, Asian people, African, you know, we had all been so, you know, unfortunately, miseducated, right? And so my father came along and gave purpose to our identity. The other thing that I really stress in mostly all of my books is his foundation.

His mother was influential and ensuring that her son had compassion for all living creatures, that his father was a member of the PTA, that he was the chapter president of the Garvey movement, that his mother was actually related to Egerton, who was one of the co-founders of the Garvey movement. So it's just understanding that Malcolm's foundation was pretty solid. And, you know, so I often share, there's this misnomer that you go to jail, you miraculously walk out as Malcolm X. The icon when the fact is that it's the foundation. Because if we think that you can go to jail and miraculously walk out as an icon, then it negates the importance of family. It negates the importance of the village that's necessary to raise a child. And so, you know, there are, there are, a couple of things, but I would say that those are probably my primary focus. What do you feel like the biggest, to piggyback on what Rachel said, what do you feel like the biggest misconception about your father and your family are?

The biggest misconception. Well, I tell you, something that I find important is just, you know, what his wife was able to do, that she lived through her husband being surveilled, you. you know, living under surveillance, being harassed, you know, to the highest power. And that even after her home was firebombed and after she witnessed the assassination, martyrdom of her husband, that she was able, you know, as a mother of four little girls and pregnant with twins, that she was able, you know, to have a lot of. life and take care of all six of her girls and give us all of what she gave us. I mean,

the list goes on. I talk about in growing up X. But it was because she never accepted no or I can't as an answer for herself, you know, the sense of self-respect that she said she learned from her husband. We have this great quote in the Shabba Center where my mother talks about, It's a quote about that her husband helped her to understand her role as a woman, as a wife, as a mother, and as a servant in the community. Both your mom and Karen of Scott King, I always wondered something. We had Malcolm, we had Martin Luther King Jr. the third on and get a chance to ask him. Junior the third. That's what you said.

Junior, the King, Junior, Jr. Walo Luther King Jr. the third. We've had him, we've talked to the, you know, the lineage of these two icons. Was your mother angry with America? Oh my gosh. That's what I mean. My mother, you know, she was not a victim, right? She did not live her life as a victim.

And, you know, sometimes when I'm looking and scrolling, you know, through my social media and I come across, oh my gosh, these, the, horrific killings here in our country and Sudan. I mean, my goodness, to see, you know, millions of corpses, of bodies, like, you know, like their rodents or, you know, it's just so horrible and so it's, it's just very difficult to think that there are people who have no regard for human life, you know, no regard for our environment. There's plenty of of land, there's plenty of wealth. So to think that my mother was angry, I wouldn't say she was angry at all, because she raised her six girls in a bubble of love, you know. And I think if anything,

when you realize that the world is not like this bubble of love in which you were raised, you know, that can be a bit challenging if you can't put it in perspective. It's so interesting to read the book in 2025, like reread the book in 2025. And I know I want your thought and maybe what you would think that your father would say about how the Black American has evolved or hasn't in 2025. Well, you know, I think about, you know, the incident that happened in Alabama. You know, there used to be a time when we had such. disdain for ourselves that we didn't want to identify with being black or anything that it was

to be black. You know, it was, you know, we looked at it in so many different kinds of ways. And so I think that now that we are more enlightened, that we are more informed, that we make sure that everyone, you know, understands that black power is not exclusionary. It simply means that we want to resume our place in the human family. And I think that there are many people that understand that. There's so much talk about your dad and talk about your family. Like, you know, there are documentaries that come out about who was behind the assassination of your father.

And there's about who's going to be held responsible. Your family and the profound tragedy that happens to you, that happened to you guys, remains a cultural volleyball. It remains something where we try to figure out who did it. We try to assign blame. We try to learn lessons from the scores of people that lost their lives during this period of black intellectual awakening. And like we talk about, you know, who killed Megher Evers, who killed Dr. King, who killed Malcolm X, who. We're trying to figure out the government factions, all of this stuff.

what is it like to live through that as like that being your dad as it being a cultural crime to us and us being victims of this sort of social economic oppression but that being a father that you really never got to have a life with because somebody made a decision that was political that must be excruciating well you know you have to find a way to accept whatever has happened in history right And then you find, you have to find a way, for me anyway, how can I help to mend this fractured part of our history, these fractured parts that exist in so many of our lives? And, you know, and I think that's adapting or adopting my mother, when I look at her that she never accepted, you know, she never gave into bitterness and despair. and victimization, right? Because you have to believe in God. You have to believe that your life

has purpose, has meaning. So for me, it's always been to address the inaccuracies of my father's life. You know, I know I've watched many programs in like the 80s and in the 90s where, you know, they were dis, they acted as if Malcolm had no real contribution. And for me, it was wanting to make sure that this information that my mother had safeguarded was not for Malcolm to be a, you know, to have a light on Malcolm, but to make sure that his work, his body of work was documented and preserved for the benefit of this generation and the generations going forward. As a writer and an educator,

how do you balance preserving your father's legacy with carving your own path? It's so funny. I don't even think about, oh, I need to carve my path, right? You know, I love my people like my father did. I think I could be an empath, and I believe my father was. And when you see injustice, you know, you have to do something about it. One of the things that I'm really grateful to my mother, she raised us so that we learned about the significant contributions,

women, Islam, and people of the African diaspora as indigenous people, first world civilizations made to history so that we grew up with a really solid sense of ourselves. We grew up to really love who we are just as we are. And, you know, I often share that if I love me, it's very easy for me to sit here and look at you too and love you. If I didn't love me, I would have no desire to identify with you. And so I'm grateful. I think that's my parents' greatest gift that they gave me an opportunity to love who I am. And loving who I am, when I see injustice, You know, I lend myself and however I can.

I'm naturally a creative. If we lived in a just world, I'd be in the arts, you know. I would be in the, you know, I make these posts of Michael Jackson. I know people are like, Michael Jackson, you know, when people are, you know, but different parts of our culture. I love culture. And one of the greatest things, another thing that I learned, you know, I was a, oh gosh, a consultant for the principal. Among Slaves, documentary, PBS documentary. And what I learned is that our culture was based on the universal spirit and intellect.

And so that's God and scholarship. And when you look at the foundation of history and so forth, you know, you realize that. And you can look at us now and see all the advances and contributions we continue to make in spite of, you know, the horrendous things that have happened in history. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window?

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Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. I learned about Islam.

Obviously, I'm from Baton Rouge, and we had the Islamic Senator of Dale Pitt. And so you would see the brothers out there and stuff. But I learned about Islam through your father. I learned about both the nation of Islam and what it meant to make pilgrimage. And I learned all of that stuff because of the life of Malcolm X. That was my entry point to understanding the religion of over one billion people.

like on earth, right? There are specific attacks right now on Islam. And it's funny that when you read and understand your father's life, he talks about how his faith allowed him to become a part of the wider human experience when he was able to connect with people that didn't look like him that were Muslim. And that, when I first read it, because you know, growing up in a Christian, household. I'm like, oh, well, like, what is it more about this religion, this faith, this cultural, this history? Now it's under attack in a very direct way and has been under attack

by certain factions who want to paint it in a certain way and marginalized people who are Muslim. What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on how Islam affected your father's life and your whole family's life and about how the world, uh, parts of this administration, parts of other parts of the world, look at Islam and Muslim people and try to put them in a box. Yeah, I think you're talking about global citizenship, because sometimes where, you know, now people are talking about a foundational black American

versus the black people in the Caribbean. We talk about it here a lot. And that's just, it's fractured, right? Because we are the majority people in the world, right? And we, if we're gonna start, fracturing our, you know, our identities and so forth, then we do become the minorities. You know, what stands out the most for me as a Muslim and as a person who made Hajj, who made pilgrimage and is what my next book is about, the journey of self-discovery and purpose

and all of those kinds of things, that one thing that really stands out for me in Islam is that, you know, we believe in the oneness of God, right? Hence, the oneness of man. And so there's not a, you know, in the truest sense, right? It's not a, you know, this thing of, you know, again, this fractured kind of identity and way of living. Yeah. Seeing, you know, when you talk about foundational black Americans, you talk about the fracture, which is in opposition to the evolution.

and thought that, you know, your father had as we're seeing this journey through this book. And that's why I say it's so interesting to read it like right now. Do you think with the fractures in the community, with systemic racism and the need for structural change that the vision can ever be achieved for what black people truly deserve and they've never had in this country? Well, we did have it in this country before. Christopher Columbus, and that's another really great learning source in the autobiography of Malcolm X. And why, you know, for me, chapter 10, chapter 11, chapter 12, really stands out because it's a big history lesson, right?

And it's been, so my father, you know, having gone to three different prisons during, you know, he was 20 when he was arrested, you know, he had a white girlfriend, he got extended time for armed robbery, and he took advantage of the opportunity in the colony, Norfolk prison, which I can't remember the name of the university today that I lecture that, but he took advantage of the superior library that they had, and he everything. And so he's able to just recite off the top of his head, the history of what happened to blacks, what happened to Jewish people, what happened to Asian people, what would happen to the whole human family. And he was so well read, right? And we've never been, we've never been free, right? When, you know, it then says Christopher Columbus, we all know he didn't discover

America because people were already living here, right? And those people who have happened to look like us, right? And that our ancestors are indigenous. Americans. And it was, you know, for, you know, if we existed for, say, a million years that we lived for a very long time thriving, building, you know, as I said, our culture was universal spirit and intellect. It's worshipping a God and, you know, scholarship, right? And so it's a matter of reclaiming that kind of legacy. before Christopher Columbus was even in existence. Right, before the Columbian Exchange.

Well, Dr. Chabas, we are, I was, I dove back into the book I hadn't read it in a long time. And, you know, obviously it inspired me the way it did before. But there were also some things that angered me a little bit, just because so many of the things that, you know, your father talked about are still so prevalent today. You know what I mean? So there was a little bit of, there was a little bit of me being upset and reading the book.

But I was very, very, very happy to dive back into it and that it is going to be relevant for another generation because he is an incredibly important figure. And the sacrifices of your family are greatly noted. I wish that you guys wouldn't have had to make them. But we are, we're very happy to get back into the book, to celebrate your father, to celebrate you, and happy that you joined us on higher learning today. Yes, thank you. very much. And it's so important for young people, especially. You know, it was in 1950s that

Carter G. Woodson, who founded Black History Week at the time, said the biggest race is to see who will control the minds of young people. And so it is so important that young people are able to read this book and let it educate them and give them a sense of, a better sense of themselves and purpose, especially as we navigate all these challenges that are existing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.