Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Drake’s Certified Legal Action and a Potential Ceasefire in Gaza

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Van and Rachel discuss what looks to be a ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas (7:44). Then, they welcome Toronto radio personality Marlon Palmer to break down the cultural impact of Drake’s lawsuit (15:24). Plus, Donnell Rawlings compares white and Black comedy culture (44:51), and SZA gets backlash for her praise of Drew Barrymore (1:03:14). Then, executive director of the Anti-Recidivism Coalition Sam Lewis joins to give insight on the firefighter inmate program in California (1:12:49).  Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Marlon Palmer and Sam Lewis Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? High Learning is on. It is Ivan Latelyton Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Later on, we have to make sure we talk about Dionne Sanders maybe being the coach of the Cowboys. No. You're not into it?

I'm probably one of the few people that's not into it. That's not into him coaching the team? It's exciting. It makes a splash. It gives us something to talk about. but if I'm interested in the success of the Cowboys, I don't know, because it's not just Dion. If you're taking Dion, that means you're getting Shador to.

And what that would cost us, I'm not a huge DAC fan, but DAC is better than Shador. So I just, with the money that we spend on DAC, to get Shador, are we losing Michael Parsons? I don't, I don't. What are you talking about money? Shador is a rookie. I will read you something.

Okay, show me. Yeah. It's like, you're going to, if you drafts your door, he's going to be cheaper. You're talking about the trade value? Yes, it would be open to taking on the Cowboys, allegedly, it's being reported that Jerry Jones would be open to taking on the $104 million dead cap hit in order to trade Dac Scott and secure Shador and D.R. So you're trading and the trade. Yes. Because the guarantee money owned it.

Right. with Dax's contract. So it's essentially you're choosing between two quarterbacks and it would be way more expensive. Should do it. But here's the thing though. When you say that

Dak Prescott is better than Shador Sanders. Right now. Yeah, right now. That's what I'm saying. But if you're going to draft somebody number one, then that's going to be, or wherever the Cowboys are drafted.

Where the Cowboys draft? 13. Well, so they definitely would have to trade up. But if you're going to trade up, I guess the question would be, do you think that Shadour Sanders is going to be a best, a quarterback than Dak Prescott.

You know what? I'm going to be very honest. I don't care because I'm impatient. I want, I'm not, I'm not ready at the moment. I want to win in the next couple of years. He's not going to

give us that next year. So for me, it's like, what weapons does Dak need? What do we, O-line, more receivers, like, building up the secondary, what do we need to get us

there immediately. I don't have the patience to wait for Shador to turn into an all-star quarterback. It's over for that. It's over. You've given them everything. I'm not even a huge fan. He's had the great running game. He's had the explosive receivers. He's had combinations of it all. He doesn't have it. Say that about your team. You don't have it. Y'all haven't been in the Super Bowl since Tupac was the hottest rapper in the world. The reality is you need a change. Here's the thing. By the way, Jerry. By the way, here's the deal. Jerry Jones, a great actor. Fantastic actor. Did you see it? And what? Did you see Jerry Jones on Landman?

Is that a Taylor Sheridan show? It's a Taylor Sheridan show. Jerry Jones put on one of the greatest acting clinics I've ever seen. He was talking to John Hamm. John Hamm was laid up. Billy Bob throwing in the corner. It was awesome. Listen, it doesn't, when you get a new young quarterback in there, it doesn't take like a ton of time. Think about the time that it took my homes to get into the Super Bowl. Think about- My Holmes is- Think about the time that it took Joe Burrow to get to the Super Bowl. You're naming like the best of the best.

But if you're going to take somebody number one, you're expecting that they're going to be there. So you would say, maybe not within two seasons, but like maybe within three seasons, four seasons. I have patience. What do you mean you don't have the patience? Y'all been waiting since 96? This year killed me.

This year we didn't even have hope. This season killed me. the Cowboys were in the Super Bowl, I was a virgin. I'm serious. It's like it's been a long fucking time. The last time the Cowboys were in the Super Bowl. I was a virgin. Clinton was president.

Nicky, this was a long fucking time ago, man. Dial-up internet. Dial-up internet. No cell phones. Well, there was some cell phones. Well, not like cell phones like we have now. If you had to Zach Morris joint. Yeah, but we weren't walking around with those.

But it was, it was pagers, was running this shit. BCRs. BCRs. We were just learning about CDs. Yeah, CDs. We had CDs, but we were still fucking with tapes. We still had cassette tapes. We still had cassette tapes.

A lot of shit going on. Biggie was alive. It's been a long fucking time. So to me, it shouldn't be about, I'm not a Cowboys fan, but it shouldn't be about how fast things are going to happen. It should be about the efficiency. That's easy to say when you're not a fan. That's true.

You know, that's the only thing. Now, on the flip side, it would be so exciting to see Dion back on the field with the Cowboys as a head coach in the NFL. His son, I mean, the stories write themselves. His son, it would be all people would talk about. And I don't know. I'm talking to, Dion has done a fantastic. fantastic job, particularly the second year at Colorado and overall changing

Colorado's culture, making them relevant again. But I have to be honest with you, I've talked to a lot of people who are Dion supporters and also Cowboy fans that have been very supportive of Dion Sanders that for some reason don't want him to take over their team. See? And what's their reasoning?

They just like, I love Dion, but I don't want him to coach the Cowboys. I'm like, well, if you love him so much, why wouldn't you want him to coach the Cowboys? It just, it doesn't seem like the fit. Why? I can't see it working. I don't know if it's, obviously he has a good relationship with Jerry Jones,

but that changes when you're a head coach. You know, like, it's one thing to like Dion as a character, as a college football coach, as a mentor, as a father, whatever it may be. But him as the head coach of the Cowboys is a different role. And I don't know how that's going to work with Jerry Jones running the show and Dion being such a big personality too. When you look at the past coaches that we've had of the Cowboys, you haven't had any, I know there's nobody like Dion,

but the last time you had a big personality like that was what, Bill Parcell? Bill Parcell's was a big personality, but I mean, yeah, I mean, he was the last big personality. Coach, I mean. Barry? Jimmy. Like the most comparable is Jim. Jimmy to me. But those guys clash with Jerry Jones in a way that made him a little hesitant to bring

that type of coach back on the coach's team. I haven't seen it. There was success on the field, but not success in the front office with the clashing of the coach. So maybe that's for me one reason to be hesitant. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And maybe that's what your friends are saying too. We'll see.

We'll see. Lots of very serious topics in the show today, including a judge. a geopolitical update that is leaving many people around the world incredibly happy, but is also leaving some scratching their heads with a little bit of trepidation as well. And we will get to that short break, and then Donnie take us back to the Middle East. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or. or intravenous infusion from the start.

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. All right. It looks like there is a ceasefire set to begin between Israel and Hamas that would begin Sunday, according to Joe Biden, but negotiations are still in place,

so we're not so sure about that right now. But the question is of whether or not things are looking good or not. They're not. I, I, when I first saw the headline that there was a ceasefire, I thought it was done. I thought it was happening. Just, just, just quickly reading a headline. And then the more you dig into it,

you see how weak the agreement is. this as we sit here on Thursday, it was already supposed to be brought to the cabinet. Netanyahu was supposed to bring it to his cabinet. He didn't. They're already disagreeing with the terms of the agreement. Hamas is ready to go. Netanyahu's already pushing back.

And they still seem to be very much so at odds on what the end goal is and what they want, obviously, from each other. And so it seems like there's a, everybody I've listened to speak on this, talks about the ambiguity that's written within it that really allows either side, particularly Israel,

to be able to pull out or renege on the deal. And as we sit here today, they still don't even have it. It hasn't even been brought to the cabinet. To me, this does not look good. So Qatar is playing mediator here. The way things are supposed to go, is 33 hostages held by Hamas

are supposed to be released in the first stage of the deal. Israel had earlier said that it would release about 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. Note the difference in terms there. 3-3 hostages held by Hamas, 1,000 prisoners being held by Israel.

I think there are people that would say those 1,000 people being held by Israel are also hostages. Those prisoners, those hostages, shall I say, would be released in the first stage of a Gaza truce agreement. Nanyahu spoke with President Elect Trump and thanked him for his help in advancing the release of the hostages. Then Yahoo then spoke with President Biden, thanked him too, for his help in advancing the deal according to Denyahu's office. Two things.

if you watch Amon, who I love to watch on this particular issue, I talk to him often as well. He is a great person. There is a couple of interesting different details here or, I guess, outcomes. One is that obviously any deal that brings the hostages home and gets the release of Palestinian hostages from Israel

and ends the fighting is something that anybody that cares about human life should welcome. However, there is a little bit of political maneuvering here. Not ends the fighting. Ends stops the fighting right now. Just to be clear. Right. There's a little political maneuvering here. This is a gigantic chip for Donald Trump and his incoming administration.

He had promised that he would stop the fighting by the time he got into office. So the question is, what is Netanyahu asked for down the line? Amon talked about it. Does he ask for the annexation of the West Bank? Does he ask for settlers to be allowed to enter into northern Gaza during the rebuild that'll happen there? And if so, what does this actually mean? if there's going to be an ask. If Netanyahu's both sizing this in the American political arena,

and we're not to the finish line of it yet, what does it mean for the future of the region? For people who are celebrating the ending of the bombing, you completely understand that. But are we at all foolish to believe that Palestinians in that region are any close to sovereignty? any closer to sovereignty than they were a couple of days ago? They're not.

Or they're further behind maybe even. Well, I think the moment that it started, it was sadly what seems like the beginning of the end. I mean, if you look at what Netanyahu wants, which he hasn't changed his end goal, he wants it gone. He wants to take over the West Bank. He wants, as you said, settlers to come in. He wants, that's one of the things they're arguing right now. The IDF is supposed to remove themselves from where they are to a different area in Gaza within this time. I don't know if it's the first stage, seconders, but within these, is it six weeks, supposed to remove themselves, and they're arguing over Netanyahu doesn't want them removed.

Amos wants them removed. You talk about the Trump administration and what will Netanyahu ask? Well, we talked about it on this podcast. The ambassador to Israel doesn't even believe in the existence. of a Palestinian. So what does that tell you right there? The end goal is to take away Palestine and to, from Netanyahu's standpoint, and for Palestinians to not exist.

Marco Rubio, who is the incoming Secretary of State, has already said that he would end sanctions on Israeli settlers in the West Bank, that he is going to be the most pro-Israel Secretary of State that we've ever seen and this will be the most pro-Israel administration that we've ever seen. So it seems as if both the West Bank and Gaza will be under even more aggressive

and perpetual, cultural, political, and really just like population attack in the next four years than we've even seen before. Somebody else to keep an eye on is a woman named Miriam Adelson who donated $100 million to Donald Trump's campaign. And in exchange of that, got a pretty hawkish pro-Israel set of staff from Trump.

Some pretty pro-Israel appointments from Trump. And it just remains to be seen, you know, the America First Standard that Trump has kind of been touting, it seems as if it's anti-war. But then the question becomes, that's what they say, they're anti-war,

they're anti-terror, crazy military spending, pro-efficiency. The question is, what if Netanyahu wants American troops involved in an attack on Iran? What if they want to be able to annex the West Bank? What if they want to be able to take over the remnants of Gaza, there will be fighting and there will be armed resistance to that. And then we're right back where we were before.

So whereas 81 will be super, super duper happy at the pause and fighting that's going to happen in the return of the hostages, the future of the region seems to still be precarious in the precarious situation. That's the limit of our expertise there, guys. We did the best that we could. So we're going to move on to goddamn Drake. That's the way we give it up on higher learning. We go straight from the Middle East to Drake. I mean, it's a battle still.

Oh, shut the fuck down. Donnie, what's going on with Drake? All right, Drake's got a lawsuit that is real this time as opposed to exploratory. And he's suing UMG. Let's welcome friend of the podcast and Toronto DJ Marlon Palmer to give us more insight. Yeah, we're going to talk about this with Marlon. Marlon, what's up, brother? There he is.

You got the gaming chair. Look, Marlon, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. So I was looking for, we're going to start a go fund me to get some pictures on the wall. I'm going to, like, I was looking for. New House. That's cool. Oh, it's a new house.

Let him know. Tell him, you got a new house. Okay. You know, I can flex on a little bit. Hold on. Because I'm in an apartment. That nigga killing me. Like, I was looking for a gaming chair.

And I end up going with just like a regular recliner when we have to report remote again. Y'all going to see that the shit is low. I didn't get the right height. So the shot about to be fucked up. Are those chairs comfortable? Yeah. Very.

For your back, because that's what I feel like it just helps you with your posture and your back, but is it actually comfortable to sit in because it looks uncomfortable. It's both, but I do like I put like a blanket and stuff too as well. So I'm a little biased. But I've had this for years.

and it's still just as good. There you go, the DXR, get it. Okay, look, there's cultural talk. Cultural talk is about Aubrey, Drake, Graham. Okay? Rachel's loving this. She's loving that. As we record this podcast, there are 16 days in January,

and I am already draked out. Yeah. But he is, I mean, he's making a splash. She's coming in with the bang. I've already had enough, but let's go. So you hear that voice, Crotie. That is a comedian, podcast host, radio host.

Yeah, yeah, I do the morning show now. The morning show. Congratulations. Tell the name on the morning show, Marl. Thank you, man. 98.7 flow in Toronto, the only black station. All right. Okay.

That's a good job there, Crudy. Thanks, ma'am. This is one of Aubrey's main angels on Okay, all right. Is what we doing? Is what we doing? No, it's cool. Do you identify as one of them?

Absolutely not. Okay, okay. I'm Toronto's angel. Toronto's angel. Okay. Obviously, Drake has now formerly sued UMG for really a litany of things, but most specifically a claim that UMG had

use the popularity of Kendrick Lamar's skating diss song, not like us, to devalue Drake so that they would have to pay him less money in the lower. That's, Rachel, you read the lawsuit. To defame. To defame him, which is why we're dealing with this federal suit, which is wild. Right. Yeah.

Which would lower his stock for the negotiation. Okay, Marlon, this is the deal. I've known you for a long time. We've had a lot of conversations. This is a very trustworthy, smart, and, by the way, hilarious, hilarious brother. You being a huge Drake fan, which, I get it, it's a cultural Toronto thing. Drake has been running hip-hop for a long time. What do you make of this lawsuit?

Seriously now, because the petition was filed, and the petition was filed in order to, Rachel, what is the petition filed for? I mean, that's so you make the claim. You can possibly get discovery. It's also a little bit of leverage and negotiation tactics. You don't want me to go full force and put it all out there. But in the petition, there was also the Spotify one. Yeah.

And he's taking that back. And now it's just the defamation one against UMG. Full lawsuit. Full lawsuit. I read the whole thing. I don't know if you were able to read it or not, Marlon. I read some of it. It was 81 pages.

There's 81 pages. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. As a big fan of Drake, what do you make of what's happening right now? I don't like it. I don't like it. personally. I think the juice ain't worth to squeeze personally.

I think what he's trying to do, if you want to look at it from a noble stance, cool, sure. But the stance that matters is hip-hop. And ironically, I think that he's lowering his stock doing this in order for him to make more money. I don't think he's going to make more money out because this alone has damaged his reputation like crazy. Like way more than the diss song ever did, I would assume. I think.

I think way more than the diss song even did, this filing has hurt his brand. I gotta be honest with you, not what we brought you on here for. You turn into one of Aubrey's demons. It's like not what we brought you on the podcast for, Marlon. I'm objective, brother. Okay.

I'm just calling it how I see it. But okay, but like, He, Van called you one of Aubrey's Angels. You got your horns out today, okay? And your pitchfork, fine, you joined my side. But is this because what Drake is doing as a fan, as a native of Toronto, is it indefensible? It's so bad. And did you come to this, when did you come to this thought?

At first, I didn't really, I didn't really think that until, like, when they, the headline came out about what he was doing, I didn't really think too much of it. But in terms of like the actual details, first of all, do you guys think that Drake was there with this detailed breakdown? Because to me, it read as if lawyers who don't know the culture are the ones that have written this up. But because Drake is the face of the lawsuit,

it's looking like Drake put streamers on blast, Drake snitching out different reactors. A lot of these things that I think, especially the whole claim of Kendrick being from Oakland in there. That doesn't read as Drake. Drake knows Kendrick's not from Oakland. So let me tell you something. Let me be honest with you.

Number one, I have to lay responsibility at Drake's feet for this, right? However, I completely agree with the meat of what you're saying, immunity pause. I completely agree with it, right? Immunity pause. I completely agree with it. When you read it, and I literally sat down and I put the entire lawsuit into an AI reader program, and it read the entire lawsuit to me, right?

I'm thinking when I'm hearing all of this stuff, there's, he's got to be getting such bad advice. There's no way that somebody would, knowing how things are and knowing culturally how optics and the substance of something like this matter. to throw in people like Kai and all of that, people who are universally loved and then pick a fight with them as well, I'm like, this reads like somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. And he has never in his career

come off like somebody who didn't know what they were doing. Exactly. And I think even when you, the streamers aspect is what really got me because he's friends with half of those guys. Half of those guys he's spoken to. Half of those guys he's promoted or put in his story. So I'm like, I don't think that he even read the full lawsuit before he went up. I think he has trusted counsel that he's going to and hoping that they handle this correctly.

But I think you still need someone in the room to be like, no, no, no, that ain't it. And it doesn't seem like when you're reading this lawsuit that there was anybody, even black in the room. I mean, okay. for Drake to even file the petition was already an issue. Before we even got these details, and I agree with both of what you're saying as far as like what they put in it to tell the story to prove their point

of why they feel that Drake has been defamed. But to file the petition was already something that you just don't do. So are we giving Drake too much credit to say Drake couldn't have been in the room? There's no way. To me, to file the petition, Drake has already lost his way.

he is so blinded by whatever emotion that he feels was done to him in this rap battle that he is only he has tunnel vision when I was reading this lawsuit and I was looking at how they were taking line by line from not like us and referring to it I thought you are only proving Kendrick's point and I learned things that I didn't even realize were a diss like I didn't realize some certain thing. I was like, well, this is now it's even worse. Wow, Kendrick is so strategic and so smart. If anything, it beefed it up even more. I absolutely think that Drake was a part of the details in this lawsuit because I think he is that blind to what, like, he's not listening to any out. I don't think anybody can convince him of anything different. This is the

why I'll say I disagree with that is because the detailed breakdown were literally from videos. If you've watched videos of the breakdown of the lyrics, those are, direct quotes from breakdowns. You can't. Those are not what I interpret it as. Those are direct quotes from different people who have broken down this video line for line.

Some of it may even be annotated on genius. You know what I mean? So once again, I don't think that Drake was in there for the details of this. Now, I will say I do see both sides in a sense where fuck everybody.

Why not? everybody came at him. If he's just saying scorch the earth, I don't care anymore. I don't blame him. But for what he got from people, from people who thought he was friends, etc., etc.

Also, if you're playing with his money, and if he's trying to go independent, which I think is the major play here, I don't think the major play is getting his money or getting justice for a smaller artist or anything. I think the major play here is get me out of this deal. And a lot of people have been calling Drake a slave to the label for a year

saying that he has to put out albums. He has to go on tour. So if he's that much of a slave, this might be his only play to get out. So this is my thing, though. The scorch earth thing I actually get, right? Because I do. Because it got to a point to where

everyone started to reveal their true feelings about him. And that's a situation that no human being wants to be in. Sure. You don't want to be in the wrong. room with a bunch of people. I've said this before on the podcast that you were smiling and pouring up with and then all of a sudden one body one nigga in the room goes fuck you and then everybody goes yeah. Yeah. Fuck you. And like that's a bad feeling to have. However, if you are in that feeling and you in the cafeteria and that happens, you fight all of the students. You do not

go run tell the principal. The reality is there's two different people that run go tell the principal. The white boys go run and tell the principal. The, you, if you go, if it's one against 20 and you go scorched earth, then you beat up everybody, you fuck everybody's girl. You even set the cafeteria. Well, I don't want to say that now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you either, like you, you, you destroy the whole cafeteria before you run and go tell. Running and going telling. And violent paperwork. Well, he fought first and he lost first.

And then he came back. This is the last thing that you could do. This is what happened. This is what really happened, though, if we put into that analogy. 20 came at him. He fought all 20. He got blamed for fighting all 20. You should have focused on the one that started the fight.

Then on top of that, everybody told you it was your fault. Everybody in the cafeteria that watched it said you started it. Well, you kind of did. Well, he didn't. He got to tell you. I think you, but to your point, I think UMG had like the best response about this lawsuit. Because they said that Drake has intentionally and successfully used UMG to distribute his music and poetry,

blah, blah, blah, to engage in conventionally outrageous back and forth rap battles to express his feelings about other artists. And now he seeks to weaponize that to silence an. artist's creative expression. I said that this man was beating up his girl. It was a problem. It was fine when he did it. It was a problem when they do it.

Said that this man was being up his girl. Said that this man, that day free was this man's kid's dad. All of this stuff. All the famatory shit, by the way, right? Hold on. Okay. They're even missing the point in saying that

or they're willfully trying to sway the audience away because the point is that they, disproportionately promoted the song that did that. Not that they put the song on platforms or allowed it to be released, but that they disproportionately promoted the song in ways that we've never, I was playing voice to men and not like us came on after I swear. Like, what are we talking about here?

After I'll make love to you, why is not like us in my algorithm? That is not normal. And that is what he's talking about. When people are saying certified lover boy on Syria and it's going to not like us, that is the problem. It's not that they let it be released. Do your thing because then now we're talking about lyrics. And Drake has gone on record in 2022

signing that rap petition against the use of lyrics in a court case. Yeah. So that we're not talking about that. And that's what I'm talking about when people keep focusing on the lyrics in Kendrick. It's not about that. Is that what they did to promote the song is the problem? But it's bullshit. nothing to promote the song.

The song would have went, but I think the song would have popular and did what it did. Right. But his lawsuit is about defamation. Not about how many times it was played. It is about a lyric. He is saying the lyrics

defame Drake. It is about the lyrics. It's not about how many times the song was played. He's just mad at the success of the song. It's about both. But the actual... It's about the fact that they...

It's about the fact that they endeavor to... artificially promote a song that defamed him. Okay, but the legal claim, I'm just saying that is part of it. I get what you're saying to beef it up. But as far as like proving it, it's the what was said.

How would that be classified if it was, let's say we take them the defamatory part out and they just propped up this song way more. They cheated essentially. Is that against the law or is that just ethically wrong? Well, no, I mean, it would be, so in my opinion, it would be ethically wrong or conspiratorily,

unethical to promote a song specifically to devalue an artist that you are then entering a negotiation with. Yeah, I don't know if it's illegal. I don't know if it's illegal, but that's... It's not illegal, which is why the defamatory... I think that's why they have to go the defamatory route because the crux of his argument is about the promotion.

But if there's no legal standing... around that, then he can't sue for that. Let me ask you a question. What, because I follow you on Twitter, just looking for reasons to argue with you. What, what did you say about Not Like Us directly after the release of the song on the day that the song was released? I said it was hard. Right. You said it was a bop.

And the song, the song is a bop. It is. You guys, not like us caught on from the most. moment the record dropped. Yeah. Now, I don't like, from the moment the record dropped, him complaining about the fact

him complaining about the fact that the song became so popular to where everybody was on it, bro, within seven or eight hours, people were going nuts over not like us. Absolutely. If they're promoting the song, in my opinion,

they're promoting the song based upon the consumer demand to hear the record. And to listen to Drake, talk about this, when we were subjected to a battering, endless battering of one dance, an endless battering of hotline blame,

an endless battering of golf playing, of God's plan. By the way, all of these records are songs that I love. I love these records. I love non-stop. I love mob ties. Drake is a fucking fantastic artist,

but for him to be complaining about somebody being beat down by a record, when we have been held hostage by Drake Records that we loved for a long time, is just rich, and it seems like he's trying to take hip hop's ball and bring it back up to Canada. Well, he did that for a few years already.

Oh, he did that, he did that for a while. But Rachel don't like that. I like Drake's music. I just don't like what's happening. And for me, as I, you know, I've already said I'm Drakeed out. I just don't understand where you go from here. You talked about him going scorched earth

and him being independent. Immediately when you said that, I thought, well, he's got to because what he's doing is challenging one of the keystones of hip-hop with rap battles. He's complaining about it. He's whining about it, something that's the very essence of it. And for me, to me, he's making a mockery of hip-hop, of rap in doing this.

And so I'm like, he is. He has rap battles are part of it. And it feels very sore loser-like to me. I understand. As a fan, where does Drake, what do you do? People will listen to his music, but reputation-wise. Yeah, I think you got, I think when I think about Takashi and his snitchery and what he did to hip-hop, he still had fans, he still had a following, and he's not even half his talented.

But it's over now. I'm really not. It's over now. But does Takashi care in the way that Drake does. Does he care about what the public thinks in the way Drake does? Because that's also what's behind this lawsuit. Oh, yeah. No, Takashi definitely cared.

He definitely cared. All he cared about was what the fans thought. That was his entire MO was what the fans thought and how he could manipulate and control them. But I think you raise valid points. Like in terms of hip-hop, in terms of hip-hop culture, he's pretty much done in terms of brand, right? But the world is much bigger than hip hop. And he is the one hip hop artist that knows that better than anybody. And so I don't think he's really worried about it.

And he realizes that maybe if the world is dancing to it, these guys will get back on board eventually anyways. All he had to do was release some fire music, bro. But he would have come out with P&D. And if it was fire, the shit would have been fine, just like it was, came out. I agree, man.

I agree. But now, guess what? He can't even drop the shit now. He can't even drop the music now because now he's tied up in litigation with his label. And they're not going to want him to drop music. They're not going to want him to do any of it.

They're going to block and strike everything that he tries to put out now. He fucked himself even worse. It's like spiked and it was based off emotion. All he had to do, push the tea came out and it just fucking destroy. Drake, right, with a record.

Drake didn't say nothing. Scorpion came out a little while later. I was in Anguilla. I was listening to Scorpion and I was like, oh, okay. It's fine. Like, you know what I mean? I'm running up and down the beach. Non-stop is on. I'm listening to the record. It's all he had to do. All he had to do. But also, the label, remember during the beef, and I think this is the problem as well is I think he had major issues with the label before this even began. Sure.

Because when the beef was going on, he was dropping on Instagram. It wasn't dropping directly on streaming services. And those were getting copyright stricken. Right. Which, that never happened once to Kendrick. Well, same label. Dropped it on Instagram. Same thing.

I thought he dropped it on YouTube. He dropped it on both. He dropped it on both. But also, Kendrick, and to the point, so what, so there was, there's a different narrative about why Kendrick was doing some of the things that he was doing now. The narrative initially was that Kendrick wasn't striking anybody that was putting his records up because he was giving content creators the freedom and the leeway to run with

the records and make them into a bigger thing. And everybody was like, oh my God, everybody's eating out not like us. Draco's, no, that's not what was happening. What was happening is they were doing something finicky to make sure that the record was everywhere, something that they never do. And the question then becomes which narrative is right. Because there's a holistic narrative that says, Kendrick Lamar is for the culture.

So use the record, do all of this stuff. We're not going to copyright strike you. We want the record to be big. Then the other narrative is, it's not true. You're not copyright striking anybody because you want the record to be big so that it devalues Drake. And you would normally do that,

if not for the fact that you also have this artist that you're about to go into a, contract negotiation with it. And by the way, but let me add that the articles came out that Kendrick said this. Kendrick is the one that said right, let them do it. When Kendrick never said anything apparently.

Well, we haven't heard from that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on for a second. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait, because I could get some people on the phone right now to clear this up. I'm not going to do it. Let's do it. But we don't know if they, if that wasn't there thing. We haven't heard from them yet. He could have suggested it. We're not going to hear differently now. We're not going to hear differently

now. Well, we might. If the label did it, you're not going to hear different from Kendrick's camp now. But, Marley, the point is, even if they did do that, the record still would have been. You can't do that because these reactors, but these reactors have millions of millions of fans. Like, they're not talking a small little pool and reactors just do. They have millions of fans, some of which probably didn't even know about the beef. But the problem is this, though, they weren't reacting to the record because UMG told

them to. They were reacting to the record because Drake dropped, I think it was Family Matters, and then literally minutes after he dropped it, not like us came out, and it was a dance song that people were... No, it was Meet the Grams. It was Meet the Grams. Excuse me, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Not like us came out the next morning, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Meet the Grams came out first. Not like us came out first. Not like us came out. We're like, what? Like two in a row? Wait, hold on. That's why the impact is. The Grams came out right after. We kind of just dropped.

30 minutes after. We blew over it because not like us came out. And then he dropped again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I think that the fact that he doubled up, thanks for catching me. I think the fact that he doubled up and he came back and the song had a beat to it and the certified, I don't want to get sued. And so all of that stuff, I think it was genuine. No, I believe you.

I think it was genuine, right? It was a great song. I will say this. I have spoken to some. on people in Drake's camp. Okay. Like literally like ensconced in Drake's camp.

And I know that the impetus for this lawsuit is very real. And it's not just coming from, I can't speak on what Drake thinks or how Drake looks at it, but I can speak about the fact that

there is a belief that Drake, over the course of his career, has played the streaming game sort of fairly and other people haven't, right? So I had a conversation and these people were talking about how certain people bundle,

how certain people bought, how certain people do all of this stuff. There is a belief, an actual belief, from some people inside the camp, that what they are doing is actually standing up for artists against companies that use all of these different things

and other artists that use all of these different things to artificially manipulate what people are listening to. So, Drake is a martyr now. They think that. See, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. If this was anybody else under any other circumstance,

everyone would be on the side of the artist. No, no, you want to. Everybody would be on the side of the artist. For me, probably. No, no, you wild. See, you wallet. Not in the beef, though. In a beef.

No, not in the beef. Not in the beef. Not in the beef. If he had brought, even if he had brought this suit, even if he had brought this suit, like in August or September of next year, I don't think that it would be land the same way

with a lot of people that it's landing now. He dropped it like the fucking week out. It looked like he was mad. He's throwing a tantrum. It also just looks bad with a song not like us and what that, the theme of that song and what, what that represents and you do this,

this is the most not like us thing. It just looks even worse. And I can see the other side of it. If that's what you really believe, what you just spelled out that's coming from some people in his camp, then I understand why you want to stand on it and fight for it.

But for us as an audience, we don't have that same. Did you say worth the squeeze? Yeah, we don't have that same motivation. The everyday person is not going to care once you win. only the artists. And that's a very small percentage of people.

And so that's why I keep saying, like, I don't think this was worth it. Yeah, okay, what if you win and you're noble and everybody gets to eat now, blah, blah, blah. The record books aren't going to look at it like that. The history books of hip-hop are not going to see that. All they're going to see is that you sued after a rap battle. Well.

And that's why I just don't think it's worth it. What genre do you think he's going to next then? I think he's staying right where he is, man. I think he's staying right where he is. All right. I got, first of all, just, you know, we let, we let y'all into hip hop. We let Toronto into hip hop. And y'all suit us and shot a-hop. You've been in hip-hop. Y'all suit us and shot a black woman. So I'm just, I'm letting y'all know.

That's the problem as well. Toronto down bad. Be honest, Marlon. You're making us a modern land. We are not. Toronto down bad right now. We are not. Everyone is not drink. And that's why.

That's why I say I'm Toronto's angel. I haven't been protecting Drake. I've been protecting the city because I feel like for some reason, this is being reflected on the city. And what that man does has nothing to do with us. Oh, shut the fuck up. He's the six gods. No, no, no, no. Will you?

I believe when you're in trouble. Will you go to the Kendrick concert in Toronto? No, I've already been to Kendrick shows, like three of them. So I've been to like six. Let's keep going. the Kendrick shows. I went to Ciz's last one. I'm super good. And the prices are expensive. What if Van and I come? Van and I are planning on coming. I'll be there. Okay. You don't have to pay. Come on. You go. You bet. Yeah, you're good. Yeah, you good.

Wear your Toronto's angel shirt. I'm wearing my prayer hands. All right, brother. We appreciate you, man. Thank you for joining us. Tell people where they can follow you and follow really, really talented, smart brother. Thank you, bro. Like really, really talented, smart brother. Tell people what they can find you, Marlon. Once again, Marlon Palmer, aka that dude McFly.

You guys can find me on Flow 98.7, 6 to 9 a.m. every weekday. Extra gravy show every single Wednesday. We talk about pop culture, all the things we talked about today, basically. All right, my man. Appreciate you, brother. Appreciate you. Thank you, bro. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream.

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services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. I'm going to call a quick audible here. We're going to talk to Sam Lewis from the anti-recidivism coalition in a second. We're going to talk to him about some of the incarcerated firefighters.

We promise that we would give you guys more research, more expertise on that. But I want you to hear something, Rach, and I want to get your reaction to it. This is a new segment we call Rach reacts. Well, we spring something on Rach that she hasn't watched yet and just get her reaction in real time. Rach reacts to Donnell Rawlings being on Club Sheesh, one of the hottest podcasts in the world right now, and talking about how black artists, particularly black comedians,

don't set up the same infrastructure for each other that white comedians do, Donnie Rowling. That's what them white boys have figured out the thing to do. They figure out a way to make each other rich. Yes, they support each other. They have a system. They just support each other. They have a system.

They have a system. All right. This person, okay, let's say, guess what, everybody ain't going to be the funniest. Well, who's going to be the best business people? Who are going to be the best hustlers or whatever? And they have a system that they make each other stars.

Why? Black people don't do that. I want you to be a star I just don't want you to be bigger to me So if that means You don't want me to be a star You're okay Well I want you to be a star

That's why you don't want you Oh now let me be a star first They don't look at it like that No That crew They can say I don't give a They where is that Sense of unity

Oh is that the end That's the end Is he specifically talking about Comedians or is he just saying In general as a community Black people don't support other black people So I think he's talking about Specifically the Joe Rogan

infrastructure that exists With comedians. With comedians. What Rogan has made a lot of comedians. Maybe explain some of that for people who aren't familiar with like the kill Tonys of it all and all of that. Right. So there's a Rogan wing of comics. Like if I'll go a little deeper.

So it used to be back in the day that if you were a comic, you would get invited on. Death Jam. I like that I like that you said Def Jam. Does that know what it's called? It's the deaf comedy jam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not what I was talking about, but I liked that you went there.

Okay, because there was a thing that we did for each other, but sorry. It was deaf comedy jam. I'm jumping it, but, yes. It was Russell Simmons. Okay, yeah, there you go. Deaf comedy jam would put you on and you would go up there and you would do your thing.

But that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the white people. What I'm talking about is the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. So you'd get to a point in your career where you'd go on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and it was just the biggest deal in a comics career

because you're standing up there, you're in front of Johnny, and you're making people laugh, and it's, you know, back during the monoculture, everybody was watching it. Monoculture. And then there was a thing where Johnny would call you over to his desk, and if he wanted to have a little chat with you,

that meant that he really likes you. And you were pretty much on from that. And you listened to, I watched the documentary one time when comedians were talking about it, and they were getting weepy. Like, I watched Drew Carey, like well up with emotion at the, about the time

that Johnny Carson called him over. That now is essentially Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan is essentially now the podcast to where if you're a stand-up comic and you get invited on Joe Rogan, you've made it. There's about to be a career

change for you. Honestly, Andrew Shultz. His career completely changed. I mean, he was killing it in the comedy clubs before, but his career completely changed once Joe Rogan took a liking to him. It's just a ridiculous amount of people

that can sit there and really get to know you. And so now, but Rogan is supportive. And these guys, the Kill Tonys, Andrew to a degree, not so much in the inner circle of that, but other comedians that are in that orbit. They all have similar kind of... Yeah, like, yeah. They're all kind of those guys.

And there are more guys with the communes that are in that orbit, even guys that people don't like as much, like Brendan Shaw, right, who has his thing that he does with the Fighter and the Kid podcast that people like, some people are critical of his stand-up, all of that type of stuff, right? Those guys are in Rogan's orbit, and they get a constant source of support from the biggest fan base around, which is the 100 million people that fucking subscribe to his podcast or whatever. Okay, if I look at that experience, I brought up Deaf Comedy Jam.

So there were places where you got that validation from black people. Right. Black, created by a show created by a black person, black host, majority black audience. They had that. You could say the same thing about in living color. It was not a comedy show, but it was, I mean, it was not a stand-up comedy show, but it was comedy. and it created this space for black comedians to do their thing.

Can I say something else? And this doesn't get that much credit, but I really, really, really want to bring this up. This is going to sound so crazy. But you could say the same thing about the House Party movies. Okay, I'll agree with that. So the House Party movies don't get the credit for being one of the, in the early 90s, so,

many up-and-coming or semi-established black comic comedy stars got their feet wet in movies in those movies. I'll take it even a step further. Look at the shows. Think of all the people, the comedians that came on Fresh Prince. Think of the comedians that came on Martin. They, like when you, there was

a, I mean, maybe it's because we have more shows, but you would bring on people who look like you, and you would give them a platform. And, you know, we can now go back and say, I remember when Tracy Morgan was this. I remember when D.L. Hugley was on this. There was a space for that. Fast forward to where we are in 2025.

Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster out there. I don't know if there is somebody black. Well, he's the biggest. So white man's the biggest. But who is on that level that could do that? I'm not disagreeing with that now. I do, obviously, the crab mentality. exists, that school of thought exists for a reason.

There is truth in that. But where is the space or who has the power that can do what Joe Rogan can do for black comedians? Like, who's the black person that can do that? I think it's deeper. Okay. Certainly, the single biggest black podcast,

I mean, there are huge black podcasters out there, nothing like Joe Rogan. Right. I think it's deeper and I think it's time that we get into the psychology of it. Okay. We talked about the fact that sometimes we don't like opening in our mail because we're used to getting bills. A lot of people were talking about that. It's just a fact, right?

Like we're used to getting bills. Bad news. We're used to getting bad news. So when we get, if you used to opening it up something and it's bad news, then there's a little, even me now, I'm decently well-resourced. I don't like getting bills because I remember when. that made you have, when a bill wasn't something that you had to pay, it was a decision about what you were going to have to go without, right? Okay.

There is a psychology of scarcity that exists with black people, and we take that and we turn it into something that speaks to a character flaw. Hmm. Like, we take something that's been engineered, and we use it as a personality disorder. So when I'm saying, hey, I don't want to share, it's not that I don't want to share because I'm a bad person. It's sometimes that I don't want to share because I don't know where my next meal is coming from. Okay.

Like I don't know how to break it off properly because I don't look at it as feeding you. I look at it as eating less food. If you have always had food to eat or if you've always had food to eat or if you've always had success, if you've always had opportunity, if you've always had access, it is a lot easier to share that success, those resources, and that access. That's not me giving black people an excuse for talking negatively about each other or for not sharing opportunities with one another. It is saying that the way to change that is to think of opportunities, access, and advancement in solidarity. Solidarity means it's actually better that both of us eat rather than

one of us eat off the other person. It's better, right? So I think when we look at why we don't do it, we point the finger at a bunch of people who are in some way defective. but what we're really talking about is people who realize that if they say the wrong word if they make the wrong movie if they vouch for the wrong person then their careers are in jeopardy in a way that other people's aren't

like Joe there's literally a tape of Joe Rogan saying nigger 157 times it didn't dent him there are other there are black comics and black performers out there that really from all different audiences, including black audiences, if they run a file of something, they're done. So that makes people hoard resources and stick closer to the vest a little bit. And the only one thing I'll say to that, to your point, is when Donnell's talking about Joe Rogan and he's created this system,

it's also like, well, the bigger system works for him, to your point. He's a black person can't do what a white man is able to do. It's just not. They're going to be judged differently. So I'm not discrediting Joe Rogan's success. What I'm saying is, is the system also allows him to function in a way that black people are not.

And also, I know a lot of comics. Comics are like rappers. Comics and rappers are like, comics to me, stand-up comics are rappers who tell jokes, and rappers to me, or stand-up comics who rap over beats. It's like it's kind of the same type of mentality when I talk to a lot of the...

To me, you don't meet a lot of happy rappers. You don't. You meet rappers that is going good for them, and when it's going good for them, they're like, whatever, it's cool. But there's a reason why people not fucking with their raps, there's a reason why people not fucking with their music. There's a reason why there's a big industry

And there's politics and there's all of this stuff. And the most talented people don't always make it. Yeah. Right? And comics is kind of the same thing. When you're talking to a lot of different comics, you hear this person is making it because he's more palatable. This person is making it because he's in the room with the right people. This person is making it because he fucked the right people.

He or she. This person is making it because it is. This person is making it because of that. I'm funnier. You put me in a room with people knowing this is I'll kill this room. I'll do this. So, and even despite that, I still see, I still see a lot of black comics, particularly in the NLA that support each other.

I see groups of them. I see people that do. That's what I was going to say. It's, again, Joe Rogan is another level, but there are, I was giving examples from the 90s. I look at what Issa Ray is doing. I look at Tiffany Haddish, think about her what you may. She had a show where she was putting on comics that she liked.

She's one of the comics that has been put on by the, yeah. And she's been. put on. So there are spaces where we do do that. So I don't like the absolute that we don't do that for each other. It's just not on the level of as Joe Rogan. And I'm not saying that it can't be, but it's a lot harder for us to get on to that level or we just don't have that same opportunity because the system doesn't allow it. But there are people putting other people on, black people putting other black people on that does exist.

You think it happens enough? I just don't think it's as loud because we do look out for each other. There's always going to be some bad ones that don't. Yeah, I just think that, once again, the most important thing in any functioning community or culture is solidarity. Of course.

Like, why do you want to see somebody else do well? you know why why why why do you want to see somebody else do well and are uh the way we've been sort of um socialized is a competition for the white gays who can be the one person that they let in who can be eddie who can be uh will who am not saying these guys like in any way you know were done themselves down for white people. But I'm saying they only let the trickle in once at a time. Kevin Hart, Kevin Hart's put people on.

Kevin Hart puts a ton of people on. Yeah, I'm just thinking of, I keep thinking of more examples as we're talking about. Kevin Hart's whole career to me is based around putting people off. But I'm thinking, I'm just thinking of it. And he's done a great job at that.

So I'm just, as you're talking, I'm like, Kevin Hart, that's like one of the biggest people we need to name. So I, a little pushback to Dono. Yeah, yeah.

And really, Donnell, to be honest with you, and I'll fuck with Donnell. By the way, I'll tell you something right now. As I say this, I say this every time we'll talk about Donnell. He's funny. If we're just talking about funny, just funny, like, it's not too many things that's funny than Donnell Rollins. If you've ever seen him as said it.

I saw him with, because he's one of Dave, he's cool with Dave Chappelle. Dave is, Dave is a guy. And he opened for him. That's how I saw it. Dave is a guy that has made a lot of things possible for Donnell. So it happens. Okay, so question. What?

Because doesn't Donnell say something along the lines of like Joe Rogan posted me and I got all these subscribers? Yeah, I mean, they, Donnell's cool with Joe Rogan? No, I'm just saying. We are sitting here naming all these black people that do support other black comedians or actors or whatever it may be. Never mind. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it. Are you saying that Donnell gave Joe Rogan more props than he did?

I'm not going to say that. He gives Dave Chappelle Pridneyed Prop. I'm like best fucking things. I'm not going to say that. But no, look, I understand that it always is not highlighted

when it does happen, but I also understand that I get why sometimes we operate like we don't know where the next meal coming from, even if we up a hundred million.

Yeah. Last thing I'll say before I go. Like, I was talking to someone very, very successful actor. Right? Very successful actor. successful actor, a television show, whole nine. We got cool when I was at TMZ.

And I was talking about it. I was like, you know, so what do I do? Because at this point, maybe it's like 2016, 2017. This is before the Kanye thing, but I'm 36, 37. But I'm already looking at the fact that I can't do this forever. Like you just, the longer you stay at a place like that, and when I say a place like that, I mean a place that is its own universe. A place that it's its own.

Everything is branded TMZ, TMZ. They don't really want you to be a singular thing there. It's all TMZ. It's all TMZ. The long as you stay at a place like that, the more you're beholden to it. You look up in your this age or you're 50 and now you don't have any value anywhere else. So I'm already thinking like, what should I do? What should I do?

And I remember this guy told me he's like, yo, stay on that bitch as long. as you can. I was like, huh? He was like, yeah, don't think about what you're going to do next. Forget about that. He was like, stay on that show as long as you could stay on that show because you are on TV. He was like, there are rich people around this town that are paying all kinds of money to be on TV. He's like, you on TV every day and people like you on TV.

He was like, stay on that show. show as long as you can. I remember a lot of respect for this guy. A lot of respect for him. Still, a lot of respect for him. I remember when I was walking away, I was thinking, nah. But you took the advice. No, I didn't.

When, when, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, when the, the rest of the people, I'm like, how do we get out? Now we got it. This is what we need. I mean, that was different. I didn't take, my thing was I was still thinking about what's next. Well, I think you always should. Yeah. That's something that Stephen A's, one thing I learned from Stephen A. Smith,

you should always be thinking about the next thing. You don't get too comfortable. What else you learn from? Stop. I just want to say, y'all leave Sizzle alone. Just leave her alone. What does it do? I just, I don't want to get all into it.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Cizzo was on Drew Barrymore's show. She has a song called Drew Barrymore. likes Drew Barrymore. She had a whole moment with her. She sat down with her. Like Drew likes to sit with you on the couch, leaning all in, all of that, getting all close.

And she just said that she really wanted to thank Drew Barrymore for giving her permission to be herself. And she explained why she named a song after her. And this had social media so upset at Siza. And you know, Sizz is always like, I feel like in a battle

with social media, you know, like saying she's going to retire, not going to put out any new music. I want to hear more from Siza, so please leave her alone. But people were saying, she was basically saying, like, I didn't see somebody quirky like me on television. I didn't get to see, I didn't see that. And so it was nice to see somebody who represented me. And then that sent social media to like keep hosting all these, and they weren't wrong, black actresses in the 90s, who were quirky. And it brought up this whole list of people, like Sinclair from Living Single, or even Tamara from Sister's Sister,

or I think her name is Rachel True. Oh, I like her. Yeah. She was quirky when she was on that, all the show she did with Essence. I can't think of the name of the show right now. What is in the craft as well? She was in the craft.

But like there are a number of quirky black girls. And so people took offense to it of like, why are you big uping this white woman when you did see yourself represented? Guys, I get it. I don't think it's that serious to be up in arms about. I do understand that it's like you're taking away from, especially during a time when CISD is 35, 36, something like that. At the time when you were growing up,

we were represented, black women were represented on TV a lot, a lot of black actresses on different shows. You could find, and we weren't a monolith, you could find a different type of black girl to represent you. So I get it, but y'all... Can I hear it? Like, this is Van React. Okay, this is Van React.

This is Van Reacts. Can I hear it? Donnie, can you play it? It was inspired by you. It wasn't just titled after you, the energy that you carry. Even my outfit is inspired by the way you've made me feel my entire life. Like, the carefree, the understanding. Like when you, you don't understand.

Okay, so I wrote you this letter that I never sent you. But it talked about how I guess, you know, when you're younger and you're black women, there's not a lot of examples all the time. And one of the few lovely white women that I'm not. I looked up to so much. On television, it was you because you were so yourself. You were quirky. Your smile

wasn't perfect. I have like a slight speech impediment and people laugh all the time. And you're like, what is this is it saying? And it's like a running joke. But it's like, I love the way you talk and like just all the the euness of you, your laugh. Your laugh, even in the movies

and in real life. It was, it's very much um. Okay, you got you cut off. Okay. Okay, so look, this is what I was saying. She's a fan. She's clearly a fan of Drew Barrymore. So this is what I'll say. So that's a lot. Okay. Because there were plenty of examples. Like, I love Denise. Okay, okay. So this is the only thing that I kind of don't understand about stuff like this sometimes. Do you remember what Ving Rames gave his award to Jack Lemon? Do you remember this? No. Oh, my Lord. Y'all remember these joint? So,

Ving Rames won a Golden Globe for like Holiday Heart or like one of those movies. He won the Golden Globe. And then Jack Lemon was in the audience. And Ving Rames gave his golden globe to Jack Lemon. He called Jack Lemon up. And he gave him the Golden Globe. And Spike lost his mind. That's a lot.

Spike was like, what the fuck is Bing Rames doing, giving his shit to Jack Leman? He gave it to Jack Lemon, and then he lampooned him in Banbooz and stuff. I get it when, because if, I'm saying that Ving Rhames would have given his award to Spike. Sidney Portier or somebody like that. The optics are different. We go, okay, he's giving it to Sydney Portier. But what if Jack Lemmon is the guy who inspired Bing Rames? What if that's true?

What if Cizor, the question would be why, right? She explains it. I know, but the question would be why wasn't there a quirky black girl that you could connect to? Connect to. And I'm interested in the answer to that question. But if she fucked with Drew Barremor, then she fucked with Drew Barramore. As a kid growing up, honestly, a hero of mine was Christopher Reeve. It makes sense.

Superman. He's fucking Superman. I see Christopher Reeve, he's fucking Superman. Now, that doesn't mean that I didn't know. Black Panther. I didn't like Eddie Murphy. I didn't like all of this stuff, all those people. But if you were asking me right now, if Christopher Reeve were still alive and he walked into this room right now, I would be like fucking, it's fucking Superman. I would fan out, go crazy as Superman. And we could talk about all the reasons why, but if it's true, it's true.

Right. That would be Lucille Ball for me. That's your white, your white avatar? Mm-hmm. I hope she's not racist. I think, but she married a Cuban. And fought and fought for that for him to be young. We don't know. We don't know. But that is who, that is, I loved that show. Right.

I could still watch that show and laugh the same way. And that would be my person. Right. So I'm saying, I get that people were like, if you say there were no quirky black girls, that's just a lie. So people are going to be like, these are the quirky black girls. Yeah. And I don't know why, man, when we're giving adulation to people,

it just feels different when it's a wipers. The video's worse. Oh, yeah, I didn't see. It just, it just, we are, like, we, it just feels different. It feels like, can I have some more cornbread? It does, you know? That's what I was going to say about that. Oh, shut up.

It just, it feels, it doesn't, we're not to the point, this is more a commentary on the fact that we don't feel confident enough. in society right now to be big up a big up a white people like this. The optics don't look good and when you have the opportunity

when you have somebody who's as big of a star is a you want to see them give their flowers to another black person. You just do. So I get it. But it's not fair.

But right. Because we all have that person. Yeah. It's mad. Like Larry David is a lot of people that I look up to George Lucas that I would want to be in rooms

with that are white. But there's steps too far. Sizz is sitting on a couch on Drew Barrymore's show and saying, hey, this is what you meant to me is one thing. The Vin-Rames thing. I'm watching. No, you can't. That's wild.

You can't do that, Ving-Rame's. That is wild to me. Shout them out, say you meant something to me, fine. Give you my word, it was crazy. Spike was good. He would say what you want about Spike. And if there was one director, I would want to sit down with, actually, I got a chance to,

be interviewed by Spike not too long ago, it would be Spike for me. But Spike used to go crazy, but Spike never went crazy for no reason. Spike would call some shit out, but he never would call some shit out or go crazy for no reason. Very sad news. David Lynch, director of Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet, has passed away. He was 78. He had been diagnosed with emphysema. and that diagnosis had taken him away from being able to direct movies.

But it looks like he's passed away. His family has just confirmed this in a Facebook post. They said there's a big hole in the world now. He's no longer with us. But as he would say, keep your eye on the donut and not on the hole. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

Just, you know, if you look at the filmography, He was a hero of counterculture. Had a very distinct visual style. Almost made you feel like you were in a haze when you were watching his films. But, I mean, to be honest with you, just one of, for me, one of the most signature storytellers,

visual and thematic storytellers of my lifetime. Blue Velvet, Wild at Heart, Twin Peaks, Walls Highway, Ball Holland Drive, Inland Empire, all of these movies, they just look. They're so signature when you watch a David Lynch film, you know that you're watching a David Lynch film. All right, we gave you guys a lot of podcasts,

but we have one more thing. Donnie, who we got coming up next? All right, we got Sam Lewis from the Anti-Recitivism Coalition, giving us some insight on the California Inmate Firefighter Program, which we've talked about before. On the other side of his break. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess.

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about Trimfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair Radio.com. Okay, so we've talked a little bit about the incarcerated young men who are fighting fires, fighting the wildfires in L.A. right now. What that means, what their role is, really what to make of so many people being aware of that story. And we have somebody here who can talk to us a little bit about not only that, but more broadly about how society should view the roles of incarcerated people. as they reintegrate to society following their incarceration. His name is Sam Lewis. He's the executive director of the Anti-Recidivism Coalition. And he joins us today on Higher Learning.

Sam, my brother, thank you for joining us. I'll get right into it. A lot of people weren't aware of the fact that there are incarcerated young men fighting fires right now in Los Angeles and that this has been something that's been going on for a while and they don't know what to make of it. How should they feel about that given all the different circumstances

that go into those decisions being made by those young men and for those young men? So first, thanks for having greatly appreciated. Great questions. How should they feel? I think the best way for us to view this is out of the lens of people who are actually going to work. And I'm in base camps where they come to rest pretty much every day.

I'll be just this afternoon I was doing yesterday again before. They want to be there. First, the program is voluntary, 100% voluntary. Historically, up until about 2018, the people that were in these fire camps were not allowed to come home after all of this training and putting themselves in harm way to become actual firefighters. And then in 2018, we advocated to Governor Brown, who agreed that this was not equitable, and put money in the budget for the California Wildland Fire Department to create a training programming conjunction with CDC or the California Department of Freshly Rehabilitation.

And since then, we have helped place over 200 formerly incarcerated men into firefighting careers. And so on that fire line right now, we also have people that have gone through our program that are formally incarcerated. And so when we think about this, what I've heard over and over again is this is this is my way of both making amends for what led me to prison, but also demonstrating that I have value. And I've told people many times that are incarcerated, you were born with value. But this is their way of giving back. And sadly from a tragedy of this size, we finally see or begin to see the humanities within our system. These are people that have volunteered to put themselves in harm's way to save other people's property. Do they have to do it?

Absolutely not. Literally, every one of these people can walk away right now and go back and say, I don't want to be a fire camp. And they would just go back to the institution. There would be no right. It would just be like, I don't want to be here. I'm afraid. I don't want to put myself at risk anymore. And they can go back to the institution that they're in and finish their time and still get time off in another job.

They could be a porter. They could work in the kitchen. They can do anything. But they choose to be on these fire lines. Why? It's a common for some. I met this young man, Derek. Williams, he's now poor cow wildland firefighter. Let me just share a story. So he was, at 15,

he was sentenced to 50 years to life for being, for being involved in a violent crime where he was an aider and a better. Alaw that ARC helped pass Proposition 57, allow him to come back on appeal as a juvenile conviction and go to the youth fire camp, the only youth fire camp in California called Pine Grove. And he fell in love of firefighting. He was, was released and he goes to the Ventura Training Center to get all of his training and then they were going to deploy him and he calls me and he says before they deploy me can you take me in the juvenile hall I want to talk to the young people that are in the units that I used to be in. Derek comes in this full uniform like he was a sight to see and he just share with them

what his dream was once he realized what he could do with his life and so these like six split three, all buffed out in the youngsters are like, yeah, I want to get as big as him. And he's like, understand why I work out. I don't work out just so I can look good or just because it's a hobby. You say, I work out so I don't fail people. If I'm on the side of a mountain and I have to carry someone down, I don't want to not be in shape and fail him. And so I work out every day. I train hard so that I do not fail the people that I'm here to serve my community.

That's why you do it. And when you hear them like in a room where there were at least 30 young people that are incarcerated in the juvenile facility, you can hear a pin drop. And so being in proximity to so many people going through this experience, like, it's a calling for many. Last night I was at base camp out in Silmar. And so I'm telling the people inside, they can't see these podcasts. They can't see the news. I'm telling them that the public sees you and they appreciate you and they're thankful for you. And one of the guys says, I'm going home in about 40 days.

How do I get to BTC? And I gave my number. I said, you call me today. You're out and I make sure you get to BTC. Get a letter from your fire chief as a recommendation. And so the pathway is there. One of the definitely shared as to because of this huge spotlight that has now been cast on these incredible individuals, assembly member Isaac Bryan

has now introduced Assembly Bill 147, which would allow the people that on fire lines that are incarcerated to be paid as much as the lowest paid firefighter that's on the line. It's not incarcerated, which is huge because historically

they're paid about a dollar an hour. Mm-hmm. I have two questions for you because I think it's great that the number that you mentioned of firefighters or incarcerated firefighters that are now able to be actual firefighters. Is it a guarantee for everyone who goes through the camp? Do they get their records expung? I'm just curious for like how often is it an automatic thing? And then the other question is,

are there any protections for them in place because they are putting their lives on the line? Like if they get injured or if the worst situation happens, if there's a death, are there protections for them in that way as well. So first, the guarantees to get to, if you're coming out of a fire camp or a firehouse out of Department of Corrections, we passed a law on one of the May, I think it's 2147, that allows them to get their record expunged. The reason for this, though, just as interesting. So when we help create Ventura Training Center, we learned that you could come out of prison,

train to become a cow wildland firefighter, which you couldn't be a firefighter in a municipality. So in the city or the county, and the reason why is because you didn't have your EMT license. And you couldn't get your EMT license because of the felony on your record. So he passed up law so that they get the EMT license. And this is for anyone coming out of our house. They have to apply for it. There's a process. And I would say it's guaranteed if they do that part.

In California, we took this a step further, though. Now, that was just for firefighters. About two and a half years ago, we passed the Senate Bill 731, which now allows about 99, 98% of people who have been incarcerated to get their record expunge. In fact, November 9, 2023, I had my record expunge. And I was convicted of murder and attempted murder and spent 24 years in prison. And so there's a process that I had to go through. I had to go to court.

I had to speak to a judge. I was represented by an attorney, which all of the public defenders officers and community-based organizations like ours are helping people. So it's available both to our firefighters that are on the line, our hand crews, and those that are just formally incarcerated. For the protections, I'm not aware of any protections, death benefits or anything like that. However, with the introduction of this legislation, I think everything's on the table. People see these human beings that are doing hard work to save them, and they don't have to. And I think because of this and the visibility, people feel that the justice and the equity needs to be given to them also. Lastly, say this, a husband and wife called us yesterday.

They've been displaced. Their homes evacuated and they hadn't lost their home, but they said when they were leaving, they saw all these guys in orange. And they were on the side. They were knocking down all the underbrush. They didn't know who they were. They had no clue. And then they watched the news and they were like, how do we help? They literally called. They didn't know anything about it. We just want to give them something. So there's so much that's being offered now. I think what we do is we continue to push this momentum, both for the people that are on fire lines that are incarcerated, but also for people in general that are incarcerated to demonstrate. One, two, equity has to come to all people, just because people have been. made bad choices or done bad things doesn't make them bad people. If they're willing to absorb the resources and the opportunity to become the best version of themselves, we should provide those opportunities as a society.

Well said, a couple of things. What type of prisoners typically volunteer for Fire Camp? Is there any requirements of you? Do you have to have good time served? Are there any behavioral requirements? Do you have to be a trustee? Do you have to, is there some sort of, is there a type of prisoner that signs up for this?

And are there requirements, you know, for that? Secondly, the debate now is about, obviously, inmates working, how they're paid, the labor. that they do. And the term that people say is this is slave labor. To be honest with you, not people. I said on the past podcast that they were essentially using these brothers,

these black and brown young men as fire slaves and out there giving them, getting their work, putting themselves in harm's way for cheap labor, the same way you see in my home state of Louisiana, you see brothers on the side of the road working with some guy on horseback when you pass by Angola, it looks like it's out of 1855.

In talking to you, it seems like I'm wrong about that, and it seems like the debate when people are having that conversation might be too narrow. So I want you to speak to that, but then tell me the type of prisoner, first off, that goes into that. Are there any requirements from the incarcerated people

that go into that endeavor into this type of activity. Absolutely. Great question. So first, there are restrictions. For instance,

if you have escapes on your record, you can't serve in a fire camp. Okay. You can just walk away from fire camp. There are no gates

or fences or bob wire. That's one. Two, you cannot have been, I think this obvious, will be convicted of arson. There's some other restrictions in terms of which your commitment offense

offenses. I don't have a poor list of them, but I know those are the two major ones. And then you have to apply. So you're inside prison. You decide you want to go to a fire camp. You go to your counselor. You say, I want to go to fire camp. You have to apply. And then the fire camp has to accept you. Oh, I see. But you're asking to go, and then they have to accept you. And then you're in training. And so I would say, if I would have described the type of person that's incarcerated that goes there as someone that's looking long range of what. they can do with their life. I'll ask that question, too, because I'm going to the base camp this afternoon,

out in the Rose Bowl. But oftentimes, matter of fact, let me give you a great example. I have a young man that is in the juvenile facility in Los Angeles that I've been mentoring. Really sharp, really intelligent, physically. He's strong, and I ask him, I say, you ever thought about the fire camp? He said, I was thinking about that. He said, I'm going to check it out and see if I want to do it. So he applies to go. He goes to the fire camp. He's there maybe four months. And then he decided, ah, the same for me. And he went back to, he came back to the facility. He's still going to do his time and get time off at either place.

And I said, why did you come back? I was like, you're outside all the time. He's like, it just wasn't my thing. He's like, it was cool for a minute. But it just wasn't my thing. It's not what I want to do. I respect that. Okay, let's move forward. he made a choice, but there's still, I want to say it's about 35 young people, there's only one youth fire camp in California. And there's a choice. Like, you don't get in trouble for deciding that you don't want to stay. So I think it's the individual that finds that this may be what I want to do, this may be my calling. In terms of the debate that's happening now, I'm really familiar with the chain gang, slave, labor, all the way back to the black codes. I'm like burst in that. And initially, when I started looking at it, I could see this as slave labor based on the pay. My biggest issue has been the pay because you're putting your life in harm's way.

If I'm working inside a prison and, let's say, as I said, I spent a quarter of a century inside. I had a number of different jobs. The most I've made was 95% an hour. that's still technically quote-unquote slave labor we want to look at it like just on a pay scale but those are placed things that I wanted to do and I did pick up skills in those areas different things different skills how to drop a forklift things that could if I decide to go certain pathways that can help me fire camps are different animal you asked me and the reason why is

because me being a head butcher and in the way in the way in the way in the be unloading trucks and learn how to draw up forklifts and palli-jacks, that's not the same as being yards away from a fire that could kill immediately. That I have no protection from that. And so I think the biggest disparity was to pay. And now that our assembly members put that forward. And it was pretty brought up by, I think, it was Chris Brown and then Kim Kardashian, a number of others that raised this. Now, our assembly member thinks you're right.

And I think the public would agree that they should be compensated at their level. Last question for me is just, how can we support what you're doing? I know you're doing more. You started a fundraiser in regards to this, the firefighters working, particularly for these wildfires right now in our city. You also have the Hope and Redemption team that you created back in 2017. How is it, how can our listeners, and we support the work that you've done and continue to do. Thank you. Thank you so much. So for the firefighters, and I want to share

with all you listeners, we've created a firefighter fund because these are things that we've learned over the years. One, there'll be tuitions, and that's for, for instance, or scholarships. When a person finishes training through VTC or LACTC, both are fire camps to train them and become full-flesh firefighters, they get deployed. At VTC, I can be deployed any. we're in the state. And so that means you have to go move there. So let's say you're from Los Angeles and now you're deployed to your RICO, which is all the way to top of the state. It's a 13-hour drive. You need first and last month's rent. All of this stuff to move up to it. Like, so we're creating, we're basing it right now, $5,000, $5,000 scholarship that you would receive when you deploy.

Here's a check. Here's for your first and last. Any other system. Any boots or equipment that you need will pay for those things to anyone that graduates. So if you want to donate to the firefighter funds, that's what that's going to be earmarked for. For the here and now, right now, some of the things that we're doing, because it's limited what we can do to hear and now, what we're doing is we're trying to bring a lot of different foods to them that are good,

but healthy. Chef Jeff, if you're familiar with him, serve time, and he's at the fire camp, cooking up on the grill, all kinds. And I've had his food before. The guy, he can cook. And so he's cooking for 200 firefighters. Maple Black is up at the Silmar Fire Camp

where about 800 of these hand crews are stationed. And he's preparing meals for groups of 400. Maple Black is preparing meals for groups of 400. Last 400. Last night they had full pork sandwiches with vegetables and mashed potatoes. And yes, I did taste it. It was pretty good.

Then in the morning, they get, amazing breakfast burritos. So if you want to donate to that, that's that's also available for the now. For our work that we're doing, and you can go to our website and look at the work that we're doing. What we would love to do is be able to help other states replicate some of the programming that we're doing, like the Hope and Redemption team. The Hope and Redemption Team is made up a former life that go into prisons and run rehabilitative programming. We've been able to decrease violence inside of prisons. We've been able to increase the number of people that have found suitable by board of parole hearings.

And we've been able to definitely support them as the transition out of incarceration and never go back. And in the past five, six years, California's closed five prisons. That's historically unheard of in this state. And so we definitely played a role. We may not be the only factor in it, but we've definitely played the role. And so if you want to donate to that, the whole redemption team, that's available. But we also have other needs.

And here's a great example. People coming out of prison need therapy. People that are in prison need therapy. And I say that from this perspective. I never saw myself as a victim. I've been shot. I've been stabbed. Been in more fights than I can count.

But I never saw myself as a victim. But as I've been out of prison now for 13 years, I've seen some of this stuff come up. And I began to understand what triggers me And how do I deal with those things? So I began to go to therapy. It's allowed me to take a whole different stamps on life and elevate to a whole different level.

When things are difficult, I have the tools to be able to use those because I've navigate those things, but I've been able to heal so much of the trauma that I went through with gangs and being incarcerated. So every one of our 3,000-plus members have access to free therapy when they're released from incarceration. This was the first year also. We provide housing for both adults and youth.

And youth starts at 18. This is the first year that 100% of our youth have been enrolled in therapy. And a larger number are now going into careers in the Hollywood unions and in the building trades. So if you look at our website, there are things that you're interested in donating to. We are serious about changing how the system works. And we also do advocacy work if you want to donate to that. We passed 36 pieces of legislation in the state of California, including ending life without the possibility of parole, making sure that juveniles, kids under 18, all kids have Miranda rights. Most states don't protect our youth, so they can be interrogated for hours on end.

Yeah. So we've been working with other jurisdictions, other states, to pass these laws that will protect our young people, our most vulnerable population. So I would say take a look at our website. If you want to donate, we're here. We put out an impact report every year to show you what we're doing because we want you to know that we invest in money. Then the last thing, how we invest your money. The last thing I'll say is this. In some instances, I won't say everyone, but I think one of the keys to this is bringing people in proximity to those that are incarcerated.

And the reason why is because we see the movies on TV. We've all saw like Shawshake or Devich. We saw all these movies and stuff. And we see the shows that they put on TV and they paint people that are incarcerated in a certain way. Until you meet someone who's been incarcerated or who is incarcerated, that's working to change how they operate, how they think. And when they want to become a better version of themselves, please don't judge us. take a moment to be in proximity to us and look at us and see that I'm not a bad person. I may have made some bad choices and I may have done some bad things,

but in my heart, I'm a resilient human being that wants to do and give some good to my community. Jesus Christ, Sam, well said, man. We appreciate you joining us, brother. I'm going to be in touch. I want to come to the base camp. Absolutely. I would like to come down there and fill the energy and talk with some people. and just see how we could be a little bit more deeper involved. I love what you're doing, man.

In my family, there's been a consistent theme of incarceration, both on my mother and my father's side. So I'm aware of some of the things that, some of the ways that people have trouble reintegrating into society after they've been down for a little while. So I'll definitely be in touch, man. We really, really, really appreciate you joining us on high learning today. Thank you.

Can I share one other thing just for clarity for the public? The way, because people have heard that young people and people that are incarcerated that are in these fire camps are working 24 hours without a break. That's not true. They do work 24 hours shifts, but they get breaks in between. They're on the fire line for 24 hours, but this is also true of regular firefighters. They work 24 hours shifts. So hand in hand, the people that are not incarcerated and the people that are not incarcerated, and the people that are incarcerated that are fighting these fires,

where 24-hour shifts, they get breaks, and then that whole squad goes back to base camp, gets a meal or get spayed, get a new uniform, rest for 24 hours, and then the other crew goes out. And so just like we're watching, we're monitoring, like the workload that firefighters carry rather than incarcerated or not is hard. And so to me, all of them, They might not have a Batmobile or Cape,

but they are muscle vehicles. Oh, my God. I love that. Thank you, Sam. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining this, man. Take care. God bless.

No more podcast. Rachel, what are you doing this weekend? Looking for Derek. Looking for Derek, the 6-3-buff fighter fire? I'm going to Atlanta. I'm going to Atlanta for the college football championship. Would you... Playoff championship.

So, let's say, because you're single, you know, Derek is a 6-foot-3 buff firefighter. Are you down with somebody that was formerly incarcerated? Does that... How inspiring is that you turned your life around? Let's say he didn't turn his life around. Oh, then it's a no. Let's just say he just got out.

No. I mean, I'm not saying... Okay, so look, I'm not saying that he hasn't turned his life around, right? That's a lot of work. That goes to your character. I think that's a beautiful thing. But I'm telling y'all right now, one important thing that these formerly incarcerated guys need when they get out

Is the love of a woman Look So if a dude If you want to date with a guy You guys are talking You loving him Six foot three Brolick

He's got a good job The whole nine And you're like What were you doing What were you doing last year This is how racial is on dates What Because you've seen me

It's like what You are You've got such a great story Right Well you said that you've been working For this place for eight months What were you doing last year What were you doing before that?

And he's like, yeah, you know, last year I had a different job. Thank you. Thank you. A little bit more tea. Some chamomile. Yeah, wind down. I like to wind down. Last year I had a different job.

I was actually in San Quentin. I was actually in jail. You know, I did a little bit. Did a little bit. It was down for a little while. I want to get into the whole particulars of the thing that I was down. But, you know, it was a very transformative. of time, the 11 years I spent in there, I was able to find myself,

sinning myself, I read, I worked out. And now, you know, I'm thankful for every day. Since I'm out, I'm thankful for every day of my freedom. And I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it to be somebody that I didn't think I could be when I was inside. Can I be honest with you? What? He had me a job. Take us out. Take us out. I'm Rachel and Lizzie. Bye, guys. Musta on the beat ho debo

Any rat nigga here a free throat Man down call like emper the lamps Tell him breathe bro Nell a nigga to the cross He walk around like teeth So what's up with these groony ass niggas niggas t'com