Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Ed Reed’s Exit, Plus Stephen A. Smith on Skip and Kaepernick

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

Van and Rachel discuss the latest out of Bethune-Cookman regarding Ed Reed and the football program (23:09). Then, Stephen A. Smith joins to discuss his book ‘Straight Shooter’ (42:15), his relationship with Skip Bayless (57:45), and the black-balling of Colin Kaepernick (1:06:50). Plus, Van digs into his love of the ‘No Jumper’ drama (1:35:11). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Stephen A. Smith Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lengthen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Sorry. All right. Rachel, do you want to say it?

We have a higher learning first, is what I should say. What's the first? Well, how do I couch it? So, we just did an interview with none other than Stephen A. Smith. He gave us so much time, so much insight. He's out there promoting his book, Straight Shooter. It's amazing. You can buy the book.

You can also get it on audio where he voices it. But Van has been waiting for a long time to have a conversation with Stephen A. Smith. Supposed to happen before. I gave you each other's phone number so y'all could have it. They didn't. You know that things happened for a reason? I feel like you weren't supposed to have that conversation so you could have it here. And if you're a new listener to the entire learning, maybe last week you heard one interview.

But this interview between, it's between all of us, but it was really a conversation that needed to be had between Van and Stephen A. It was beautiful. And I don't want to say, how do I say it? He didn't, you weren't silenced by any means. But you listened, you reflected. And even if you didn't agree with it,

it was kind of a, I understand your point and where you're coming from and I respect it. Because the conversation, I don't want to give away too much because y'all are going to really enjoy the interview. But obviously, Van has been vocal about some issues with Stephen A. Smith in regards to the NFL and Rock Nation and Colin Kaepernick and Nessa. And we really delve into that conversation. And I think you walked away really understanding the other side of it.

So not that you conceded. No, no, no. Here's the thing. This was very nourishing. I'll just be honest with you. It's very nourishing. you guys, we're coming to you right now on the heels of probably the most

contentious interview that we've ever had on Harvard. Have you forgotten about Michael Rappaport? Michael Rappaport? That was number one. This was number two. The second most. The second most contentious interview that we've had on Harlem.

And I have re-listened to the Emmanuel Acho interview a bunch of times. And I think that the question I've asked myself is, what did I want out of that? And what I really wanted out of it was in some way to convince him that what he's doing is hurtful and harmful. And I truly believe that it is. And I don't back away from that. I truly believe that in a time where they need to be clear lines drawn for, you know,

what the pursuit of black happiness is that, like, we can't pretend one thing is a solution when it isn't. that doesn't necessarily mean that somebody is doing something on purpose. It doesn't mean that they're bad. What it means is that if we think that white people are mad at us for whatever reason, there are two ways to me. One way is to say, I know that you're upset, but these are the rules of a society and you can't break these rules or else we'll collectivize our power.

The other way is to say, I know that you're upset. Here's some vanilla ice cream. And that's in no way, that's a, that's in no way another shot. That's me saying that, that, that, that's me saying that like one way seems like, hey, I'm reaching out to people and I'm trying. And maybe there are a couple of people that'll take the ice cream. And then they'll be like, hey, like, I gave me ice cream. I'm not mad at them anymore.

But I just don't think that that works. However, the interview evolved and it became something that was messy. I think that's fair to say. The one with the manual. The one with the LaMaggioie. Messy. Messy interview. It was messy.

It's, hey, everybody, listen. There's two people going at each other and there's this and there's that. And there are two people that have different approaches and, you know, you're this and you're this and you're that. I take nothing back. I stand on it. my apology after the interview was to the listeners to ask your listeners to make that sort of

that sort of sacrifice in terms of their ears and their souls they should be able to get something from it and I don't know that they did you know what I mean beyond me feeling like I was going back and for a win this interview is totally different this was with a man that I have had and still have disagreements with. And I came away with a very sincere understanding of him. Yeah.

And that's why in the interview you keep, I keep going, because I know people would be like, oh, Rachel wasn't talking. But sometimes it's not just you ask a question, Van, and I ask a question, and we go back and forth. Sometimes you let the conversation go where the conversation is going. I don't want to interrupt a moment. And what I was seeing in that conversation was a moment. And I was seeing a connection.

And I know you've been wanting to have that conversation for a long time. So I wanted to make sure that you got everything out that you wanted to. You know, like, as Stephen A. points out, I know him. Like, I can hit him up on whatever. But now you guys know each other. Yeah, look, I still think that there's, I think that there's a lot of work to be done when we're talking about Colin Kaepernick and his situation. going to talk about that. And I want to make sure that everybody understands exactly where I stand on that.

Where I stand on that is I look at Cap and what he went through and what he continues to go through, what their family continues to go through. And I look at it as such a monumental societal failing, not because I know them. Oh, no. You're right. I think just because just the fact that there has to be a time where putting yourself in the middle of an issue for black people doesn't end up with them killing you, right? Like, we have this, we have graveyards full of people who their only offense was trying to help us. Absolutely. Blow their heads off, put them in jail, take their careers. And at some point, the loss of your livelihood or the loss of your happiness, the loss of your living a fulfilled life, we have to consider not asking people to make that price, to pay that price.

And that's another reason why I was so, I was so, I was protective of Patrice. And, you know, I mean, it's hard to be now, but I was protective of Patrice, protective of BLM just because you know, they tried. And they tried and it ended up getting fucked up, but they tried. Yeah, I just don't want to put those two in the same. I'm not putting them in the same thing. Patrice and Billum is not cap.

He made a sacrifice. And because of that sacrifice, so many other people are going to get to do certain things that, you know what I mean, since that. Like him taking that knee, now you see other people do it or certain things that are symbolic of that and not have to go through what he did.

And it's not just him, it's Eric Reed. It's all of that. I just want to make sure that... Yes, definitely Eric Green. It's Eric Reed, shout out Eric Reed, LSU legend. I want to make sure that we never just like forget about them. And it upsets me. You know what I mean?

I don't think that they do. It might not be on the tip of our tongue and it might not be at the forefront of what we're thinking. But I don't think this is something that you write about in history books. I don't think that we forget about him at all. Well, I think that we're in danger of it. And so, you know, a lot of the problems are the issues that I've had with Stephen A. Smith in terms of the Kaepernick situation which just wanted everybody to have all hands on deck

to be able to make sure that we would not lose the intensity over what had happened. And not just that, but other things. We've talked about other things. Donnie wanted to make a list of all the times. Donnie wanted to make a list of all the times I criticized Stephen A. Smith and then run them in an audio clip.

We should have talked about that. That's exactly how I wanted to spend my Sunday evening. So you wanted him to do that. Clips for Van to say these aren't relevant. The great thing is, as you'll see in this interview, Stephen A is aware of all the things that you said about him. He's aware about more about me than I even thought that he was. But look, you guys, for everyone that had a real problem

with how the interview went with Emmanuel Acho, and I know that there were a lot of people, and I've heard from everybody, I was, you know, I had people telling me that I was mad because he was in great shape. I had people I had people So people hit me up

And it was like What? Like he's like Nah man He's like Acho is who you want to be I was like for real It's okay

I had people Telling me that I was a terrible friend That you were a terrible friend Why are you telling him? I was a terrible friend Because I didn't say enough To defend him

To defend him Why didn't you though It is kind of fucked up Yeah we went through this No shut up We are some real shit But here's my thing First of all

I'm not your babysitter I was swinging punches I turned around And you was right there. I'm like, oh, shit. I was throwing punches. I turned around. I'm like, oh, I didn't expect you. Rayshy her earrings off and the tenta tree is on. Tag me in. I'm like, whoa, I didn't expect this. Like, no, Amanda. I'm like, whoa. No, no, no. To be honest with you, that pumped me up a little bit.

No, no, no. First of all, I'm not your babysitter and I'm not your Wrangler. And again, I saw where the conversation was going. But at the same time, I don't necessarily agree with everything that he was saying. The bottom line is it was miscommunication about the the whole, how the whole thing started. But I don't necessarily agree with it either. So I thought I was doing a favor by being more silent and not piling on. But, you know, it is what it is. Anyways, people can change.

Growth happens. And you see it in this interview coming up with Stephen A. Smith. You guys enjoy. Yeah, we're going to get to it. And it's going to, it's pretty good. Rachel, what did you? Because I don't want to, because I know that people are, are like, into the fallout of the last episode. they probably want to hear more about it

and they you know I spoke with Kalika about it she was on his ass like she didn't she basically like my mom was like maybe son maybe a little too much

maybe a little too much dip on your chip I look like I love you I love you but you know and I'm sure you're going through stuff maybe too much Calico's like fuck it get busy and it was mad people that were like that but um

the criticism of the about that, I've heard. Here on higher learning, I think that, well, I'll speak for myself and who? Speak for myself. Or maybe it's just speak. I should be professional enough to be able to tell the difference between the name of shows.

Here on higher learning, we do want to make sure that it's worth to listen for you guys. We do. We want to make sure that it's worth to listen. And if we wanted to pull stunts just to drive numbers and views and stuff like that, we could have a situation like that, every podcast.

We could do that every podcast. You wouldn't hear us. If we did that, you wouldn't hear. We would be putting on a performance. And that's not what we do at higher learning. There's an update about the NWACP Awards. Not, Van. What?

What? Go ahead. Okay, so let me tell you how funny Rachel and I are. We get nominated from NWACP Image Award, which is a fanatastic honor. Thrilled. Like shout out to Arundi and all the people over there at M88, who they made like a little collage of like M88 clients that are like nominated for NWACP award. Is that what your representation did for you?

Yeah. My representation, like M88, they made a collage. They made a collage of everyone that is nominated for an award. And it's interesting because it's like... Did they cut me out the picture? Well, you're not with M88. Oh, I thought they might have used the graphic for higher learning. Mm-mm.

I tried. They got Coco Jones is on there. They got Pinky Cole on there. Shut up to Coco Jones. They got Taraji P. Henson. They got all of these people, right, that are M88 client. And then right in the middle of them, boom, Van Lathen. Good picture, too.

You see that picture? Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, good picture. Shout out to M88, State, M88. And, you know, we're getting all excited. you know, we're calling, you know, who's going to address us and whatever. And then we learn that, and we are super duper thrilled to be nominated. Without a doubt we're thrilled to be nominated.

Then we learn that like the NAACP Awards is a week-long situation. And the award show that's on TV is on Saturday. Yes. They'll be giving out our award on Monday. Right. Which happens with other award shows as well. It's a whole week of NAACP Award festivities. And, you know, there's a chance that maybe we won't get to go to the award show on Saturday.

But let me tell you something. Changes nothing. It only changes the fact that now I don't have to do three a days in the gym to try to fit into this pyromance. No, don't say that because what's going to happen is you guys are going to vote for us. Did y'all know that you can vote? Vote. We need to be providing that information. I don't know what the website is.

Google it. Find N-A-CP Image Awards, 2023 nominees. Go vote for your favorite podcast. Tell your friends. Say your family to vote. Because what's going to happen is we're going to win on Monday. And then we're going to walk the carpet on Saturday.

And they're going to be like, oh, I'm like, oh, thank you. We already won. We already have our award. Bam. And then you can sit back and enjoy the rest of it. I also want to say, I want to shout out, come back with Erica Kopp. Into America with

Tramaine Lee, Leval Burton Reeds. I love that podcast. I love that podcast. And the sum of us for being nominated in the Outstanding Society and Culture Podcasts.

Shout out to my girl, Angie Martinez. Shout out to Jamil Hill. Shout out to the Reed. Shout to all of these. Great podcasts. Great podcast. The Reed is just an amazing podcast.

It reads great. It reads great. What did you do this weekend? What did you do yesterday? Man, man. What happened? Enough with the pleasantries. Was there anything significant that happened yesterday for you?

Take us through. I had a day of rest. I was coming off of a very busy end of the week. Some of you may or may not have seen. I had the opportunity to do the view. The view. Thursday and Friday. Don't get me started on that.

Go ahead and talk your shit because I got... No, I don't have a lot to say about that. I'm very humble. I'm very grateful for the opportunity. I had an incredible time. The staff there was amazing. They made me feel so comfortable and relaxed to be my full self,

which I felt like I was able to do. And then I was exhausted. So Saturday and Sunday, all I did was watch football. Saturday night, I went to a 2000s party. That was a lot of fun. Ran into Manuel Ocho.

At the party? Yes. Oh, you told me that. I told me that. You ran to Acho at the party saying. All good. Everything was all good. What did he say?

Hello. No, it was fine. Everything is all good. But that was interesting. Who was he dressed as from the 2000s? Eminem? No, he kind of had like a Cameron jacket on. I went with more of a Kelly Rowland style.

Okay. But everyone was saying more Britney Spears Justin Timberlake because Brian was in Jean. But Kelly Rowland was really who I was channeling. So you didn't match with Brian? No, we did. We were both in all jeans. So it was like... We had matching bucket jean hats.

Ryan should have done Eminem. That had been so crazy. Brian did Eminem. Five years ago, I threw, maybe longer than that, I threw a 2000s party. And I wore the jersey dress. And he more went with like the Nelly style, the Band-Aid, the backwards hat.

I think he had a Sean John sherman, that kind of thing. Anyways, did that. And then Saturday, you know, I just relaxed. I caught a couple of games that were on. You watched the games. You watched football yesterday. It's traumatic for you. Let's talk about it.

What happened to Rachel? What's not? What happened to the Cowboys? Let's look at them. Let's look at that Prescott's line from yesterday. Because look, I can't really, the fucking, the Saints didn't even make the playoffs. You're right. You really have nothing to say.

But I do. And like, don't y'all get tired of trolling the Cowboys? And aren't you sad to see us go? Because now what are you going to do? Enjoy the games. Troll party? Like, that's no fun. Can I be real.

Burrow, that's no fun. Do you know that like nobody came together and like took a vote on who quote unquote America's team was? Nobody asked us. Exactly. It was just understood. That's the thing. We didn't need to vote. Everybody just kind of collectively thought, you know who best represents America?

And you're right. The Cowboys are just like America in decline. Okay. I've realized where it was. You're absolutely correct. Yeah, if you gave us false hope in decline. They're in decline. You're right.

Just like it is. There are more America's team now than they've ever been. That 23 of 37, 206 yards, 5.6 yards per average. Average 1TD, two interceptions. And that last play. That last play with Zika at center. Oh, my God. please. Ashley's in the house, by the way.

Ashley's here. Ashley, come in, come in the room. Ashley's here. Ashley's here. Ashley's come in the room. Donnie, tell people what you thought about that last play, Donnie. I felt bad for Zee, and that's hard to say as Wolverine. Can you just hear the sincerity in Donnie's voice? I did. That's been in that position, too. Being like outmatched and then just push to the ground, that sucks. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't.

Ashley, can you please? Ashley, can you please come sit down and join? Is she on camera? Yeah, she's going to turn. We just want you to say hello to everyone. Ashley. They can see you. They just can't respond back, Ashley.

Ashley, wave and come take Rachel's mic and say hello to everyone. This is our producer, Ashley. She's very, very shy about being on camera. Yeah, like say hello to everyone. Hi, everyone. What was the last time you did cocaine? ages.

But you've done it? No. Get out the podcast, Ashley. But like, you're supposed to, like. Ashley, we're so happy to have you. So happy to have you. First time you've been in studio with us. Yeah, it is.

Did you enjoy this, Stephen A. Smith interview? I did. He's intense. He was really intense. I thought he was super chill. I thought he was super chill. He was just not his first time around. All right, Ashley, smash out.

Bye. All right, Emma. Yeah, just wanted to introduce you to everybody. Yeah, Ashley, everybody. Donnie, I want to go back to Donnie feeling bad about Dack. I'm a Cowboys fan through and through and I don't feel bad for him at all. No, it wasn't Dak I felt bad for it.

It was Zeke. Zeke. Zeke being put as soon. Yeah, that's, that sucks. Me too. Like, I haven't had a legitimately funny moment like that. Like, because they come on that. How many times you watch it?

Man, so many times. They came out in that formation. They came at that formation. I got to play my actual, the long clip of me laughing. They came out in that formation and I'm like, this is interesting. I thought they had something up their sleeve.

Snap the ball, he gets fucking destroyed. And then after he gets to short, they just throw an eight yard out, like an eight yard stop around. And I don't know if they were supposed to hook that or if they were supposed to be some lateral situation. I just knew it was going to be something genius because the setup was so awful.

I was like, okay. I was so funny, man. You guys have to It's so funny Because they snap the ball They snapped the ball Watch Lisa

He takes a little shuffle Like to get Man shout out That alone should be enough To let go of our OC You gotta go What was that Not even a hell Mary

I would have rather Take it a hell Mary You still going to the Super Bowl? Who's going? Are you going to Super Bowl? I'll go to Super Bowl weekend You'll go there Not to the actual game

Just like, hey, I might go to me. Oh, it's the best. It's the best. All right, let's get into the show. Stephen A. Smith is coming up after Ed reading the big deal of the day. You guys, just let you know, we gave you long

pleasantries. We gave you long pleasantries, long pee. We gave you guys some long pleasantries. So, we might do Ed reading a couple of the subjects, but I really want you guys to hear the Stephen A. Smith interview. And also about this interview,

there are some things that I did not know that were revealed in this interview non-Cappanek related about other NFL players. Oh, yeah. I never heard that. I had never heard that either, and I thought he was referring to the same thing

you thought it was, and I was shocked to hear that. I thought everybody was cool that Stephen A did not hold back about... Scott, I love that about him. All right. Okay, guys. I might want to call your friend later.

Learn for me. Yeah, I might need to give him a call. You might want to call. You might call you might call. On the other side of this, Big Dilliday, Ed Reed, and HBCUs. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay. Ed Reed is out as Bethune Cookman's coach after 25 days. You guys know the backstory by now. Ed Reed, uh, had an agreement in principle, I guess, because the contract hadn't been ratified yet. A verbal agreement. verbal agreement to take over to Thone Cookman Wildcats.

He was going to lead the school be their head coach. This of course comes on the hills of guys like Eddie George, Dion Sanders, coach in the HBCUs. He goes there basically showing up for work. And he makes video

saying that the school is in disarray. There's trash everywhere according to Ed Reed. There are buildings that are abandoned. And he loses it on And I think that's, is that fair to say that he lost it? Definitely in the second, in the second one. In the second video.

Donnie, cue the second video just so we can go back. No, no, no, what, never mind, don't because I don't want to waste time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We covered it before. We covered it before. We covered it before. Ed Rita's now said that he will not be accepting a job with Bethune Cochman. He will not be coaching there.

That's not going to happen. And then, went through a long, I gotta be honest with you, kind of a meltdown in front of some football players and their parents after I guess he had gotten the news

that he wasn't going to be the coach at all. Yeah. And it was pretty... It made me sad. Did it? It made me sad. It made me want to take back what I had said before

on the prior podcast. Because if y'all remember when we listened to the two videos and we saw his reaction and he hadn't even signed a contract yet, I said, you got to let him go. I said, well, there was nothing to let go, but I said, you can't have him, you can't hire him. Not when you're going to, that is the way that you respond to conflict. I felt like it went too far. It just wasn't a good sign. I really felt like how can you trust this person in this position if this is how they respond when things don't go right. I just wasn't for it and I just thought, you know what, before anything goes too far, you shouldn't even, you know, go into negotiations any further. That's what I felt. And then I saw the video. And it really made me sad because even though I still stand by the position of I don't know how that relationship could progress with the way that he went out publicly and spoke in such a bad way of his school that was going to, the school, the school,

that was going to hire him and his potential bosses, I just didn't see how that could ever be a healthy relationship. It got off to a bad start from the beginning. They had nothing to go on with each other. There was no trust there. That was their foundation. I just don't see that. But when I watched it, it was like, gosh, this is a good man who really seems to care about the student athlete. And that's what you want in a coach. For sure. You want somebody with passion who cares, who it's not just a job and a paycheck is something meaningful. And he seemed to be really invested in growing these men, not just as athletes, but as human beings. And I felt bad.

I really felt bad for him. But logically, I don't see how it could work. Yeah. Let's hear the audio real quick. Let's hear Ed Reed after the news came out that he would not be coaching Bethune Cook. After playing in what we started doing, young man. Yeah, I cursed. And y'all had heard curse words before.

They got parents in here. And no, I don't want to leave. And like I told you, I want all these recruits. But they got some corrupt people in this world, some evil people that don't care about kids like I do. So I want y'all to hear the truth from me. I ain't withdrawing my name. I got the receipts. They got all kinds of stuff going on around here, hoarding these buildings with nothing of trash in them.

You understand me? And Dion was right. And I know him right. and they got some people in here will be snitching to their ass and I work amongst Judas as Jesus walked with him and I ain't have a problem with it

because even Jesus prevailed and what God got for you no man can take it. The fall off in this has been pretty significant and there's been a lot of questions raised and there are factions here there's a faction of people who I think are

BC HBCU die hearts who really care about the perception of the HBCU and the health of the HBCU that thought what Ed Reed did was not just in poor taste but damaging

but I must be honest since he has began to speak and I was never in favor of firing him or not giving him the job A Band-Aid has been ripped off regarding conditions and student issues at Bethune Cookman. There was a protest today where students marched in support of Ed Reed and not even as much in support of Ed Reed, but more in support of themselves. There are pictures coming from inside of the dorms where, you know, there are moldy blankets and sheets.

Some kids are saying that, you know, they don't have the air conditioning that they need so they have to leave their windows open. It's Daytona Beach, Florida, you guys, so it's not exactly the most temperate climate there. It's, you know, it's pretty hot most of the time. And there seem to be or there seems to be a back and forth. as to what the best way to fix the problem of the livability of life of an HBCU. If you are going to Bethune-C-Mookman and you don't live in the vicinity of the school or you're not married or you don't have a kid, then you have to live in the dorms.

Really? Freshmen and sophomores. You have to live in the dorms. I was wondering what that was you said. Yeah, you have to live in the dorms. And if these kids are playing $15, $20,000 a year for tuition, some people say it's 30. And it is.

Some of the stuff I saw, like people were saying that they paid $30,000 a year ago, I don't know how much. I don't know how much it is. I know that they have a healthy endowment. They're about $50 million endowment. So they're not as broke as we were at Southern. It just seems like there's a way to split this baby to where we have the conversation about how kids,

are living in the conditions they're living in in the HBCUs and the best way to fix that. And I'm not so sure that what Ed Reed did was the best way to fix it even though the awareness is heightened now. You can't, there's no way to deny that.

He activated the students for whatever reason. They're marching. And now people are kind of seeing that maybe some things have fallen through the cracks over there at BCU. If there's a silver lining in it all, sure. It's raising awareness and it's starting a conversation. And maybe some alums from Bethune Cookman or those who donate or whatever it may be will dig into what's going on, who's running this. And should they still be in a position of power? Because it sounds like things are falling through the crap. crap are falling through the crack with that big of an endowment and 30,000 a year, like it sounds like they definitely should have better facilities, accommodations,

than what you're calling out from those pictures. But I still think it goes back to, you know, and Stephen A. Smith touched off on this too when he talked about it. I think it goes back to there was so much emotion that was coming from him and I understand that, but it went about the wrong way. And it also, and I do think this is the other side of it where it's the negative, it gives the opportunity for other people to speak badly about HBCUs in that manner when you're putting it down as well. Like I think there's a problem with that, which is why Ed Reed couldn't stay there. Like I truly believe he could not stay there. I don't think it was healthy.

If you're starting out your relationship that way and you're dealing with what he is calling a corrupt administration, there's no way that you guys are going to be able to come together and accomplish what you both want to accomplish. It's just no way. So I want to read you something from BCU's Wikipedia page. It says that the university was placed on probation by its regional accreditor, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools in the summer of 2018. The accreditor cited failings in multiple areas, including integrity, governing board characteristics, financial resources, financial responsibility, and control of finances. The accreditation action followed significant financial losses by the university.

$28 million over the past two years. $28 million over the past two years. That's the summer of 2018. So I guess from 2016 to 2018, 2015 to 2017, whatever, the university had lost $28 million. Multiple lawsuits, including one filed by the university against a former president,

alleging fraud and bribery related to a $306 million construction deal. Nursing program have been placed on probation by its accreditor a few months earlier related to academic issues. In September 2020, the university was taken off probation and maintained its accreditation. So the reason why I bring that up is because of this. I also know that there in Daytona, in Florida, there have been a couple of tropical storms that have come through. Right. And so a lot of what I'm hearing from some of the people that are BCU alumnus is that they're saying,

a lot of what Ed Reed is talking about is our struggle to get back on track since two tropical storms have come through to the school. Everybody's going to have a story. The

question is not about the fact about whether or not there's a problem at HBCUs. We understand that. The question to me is how do we fix it? if Ed Reed or Dion Sanders or Eddie George want to go to an HBCU and use their platform to bring in a lot more money to the football programs, thereby raising the cachet of the university, the status of the university, and bringing in more money, that's amazing.

I heard a conversation where Ed Reed was described as a whistleblower. Fine. Who is he blowing the whistle to? What, if Ed Reed's goal was to go to BCU and build something and change the school, Edrie fell. What I'm saying is that,

what Ed Reed was trying to do, he could have done. Like he could have done. If his goal was to change the school? If his goal was to build something at BCU, that he could have done it. But I don't think that now those goals are as in sight. I think that the next football coach is going to be under a tremendous amount of scrutiny.

Yeah. I think the school is now under a tremendous amount of scrutiny. And although the students have specific demands, a lot of people are looking around like, what do we do? Should there be

an investigation into what's going on? For sure. Well, it sounds like I mean, they've got lawsuits, there's mishandling of funds. My question is, when you were naming all of that, are the people who were in leadership and power when that happens, running the school.

Do not know. Because that would be a key question, too, because then if they did get rid of those people and you have new people who are on the board of trustees, because I know that was something that they were chanting in the protest, removal of those people, or the president or whoever it may be, if it's new people, then it still sounds like it's corrupt. So I think there definitely has to be an investigation, and I don't think it should stop at BCU. I think that it should be on every campus to be on.

honest with you because the purpose of these kids on the campus is to learn and to grow and to develop and be the future. And that's all they should be focusing on is their education, not all this corruption and everything. And it sounds like people are getting off with funds and whatever else, or power or whatever it may be at the expense of these kids' education. And that's wrong. I think it was a bad move to fire him. I just, I, I think it was definitely a bad move to fire. Okay, but okay, let's talk this out because I don't agree with that because I don't see how you could have moved forward. I think there was such a bad taste in Ed Reed's mouth, and that's only what he expressed to us on social. Who knows what was going on behind the scenes?

There's such a bad taste in his mouth. I don't think it would have worked for him unless whatever he felt was corrupt and what was wrong was removed as well. one had to go. I just, I don't think it could have worked. I think this was an optimal time for a conversation. This was an optimal time to get the decision makers together and for everybody to sit down and have a real conversation about what the expectations are

on both sides, meaning the expectations from BCU to Ed Reed and the expectations from Ed Reed to BCU. Well, as you know, with conversations, both people have to be. Yeah. Like willing to work together. But to be honest with you, that actually is applicable here because when you're having a conversation to try to solve a problem, there's a way that you have to have it.

And I learned that. And I hope that we would learn that when the main thing that we're trying to get at is student life. The focus is the students. I'm looking at some demographics here. 81% of the students that go to Bethune Cookman are classified as low-income students. 19% of them will only be classified as a fluid.

So the children that are being served, the kids, the grown people, the young people that are being served at Bethune Cookman are overwhelmingly from challenged economic backgrounds. Their needs have to be paramount in any discussion. I don't think that firing Ed Reed,

despite what he did, was having the kids best interest in heart. I think firing Ed Reed for Bethune Cookman was having Bethune Cookman's best interest at heart.

Now that doesn't mean that that's not the way I look at it is, hey, you have an opportunity to do something, with a guy like that, let's have a conversation and show a little cultural patience to one another. Even though, as I still believe he was 100% wrong, he was disrespectful, and he doesn't know he ain't swag.

I believe you, he ain't swag. However, I just think this was an opportunity for him to become swag. I think this was an opportunity for them to understand maybe what a high-level football program is like. And rather than everybody kind of come together on it and put the students, the team first,

they kind of ran to their silos and it's sad to me. I do believe that BCU was about B.C. protecting BCU. And I think Ed Reed was about protecting his student athlete. It's not necessarily everyone. But we'll see. I feel like this story isn't done. Oh, it's the beginning. But I hope it's not done in the sense that it,

brings an investigation to BCU. That's, I don't, I hope this, because it's the students we need to be focused on right now. Well, here's the thing about that. So if there's now going to be an investigation into what's going on at the top there over at the school, the transparency is about to get like super murky. All those people that are on boards and that are in power positions, they're going to cover their assets at BCU. So none of this is going to be.

be easy. There's not going to be a come to Jesus moment where there's a, where everyone comes out and they start holding hands and they sing, we shall overcome. They had the opportunity for that. They had the opportunity to have a press conference where it's Reggie Theis, who's a former NBA player who's the AD

over there, and Ed Reed, and everybody comes out and says, hey, you guys, we talked, we had a conversation with him, he had a conversation with us. He understands, we understand, and we're moving forward, and we're going to trust each to try to build something here.

But it didn't happen that way. And now he's mad, they're mad, and the kids are mad. All right. Without further ado, the author of Straight Shooter, a memoir of Second Chances and First Takes. Stephen A. Smith joins us on higher learning

on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

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So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Our next guest on higher learning is just very simply one of the biggest names in culture. He is the host of every show on ESPN, all of them. you turn them on, like, you leave your TV on when you go to sleep at night, you're here. This is blasphemous. It's just, you just, that's what you're here.

He's also the author of a book called Straight Shooter, a memoir of Second Chances and Hot Takes. That is available now. It's the book I have read, and he shoots straight in the book. As always, Stephen A. Smith joins us today on how I learned it. How you doing, my brother? What's going on, man? How are you doing? What's that, Rachel?

How you doing? Long time. Stephen A, how are you? It's good to see you. I hope you well. I'm good. I caught your bit this morning on the first take with the cowboys. So, you know, I'm still recovering.

That last play was pretty remarkable, man. That last play was hysterical, Stephen A. No, no surprise. No surprise. Wait, can I? I tell everybody to be patient. Just wait for it. They won't let you down.

This is what they do. Cowboys always song away. Okay, okay, okay. But can I ask you this? this real, just one cowboy question out of the way really quickly. Is Dak the problem to you? Right now he is. Okay.

He didn't show up last night. Bottom line. He didn't show up Sunday night against San Francisco 49. There's no way around it. You know, you're playing against a third string quarterback. Yes, Brock Purdy has looked good. He's undefeated in the seven starts. But he's got an elite defense.

He's got a running game. He's got Christian McCaffrey, Medevo, San, who was I, you get the wide out and stuff like that. get up to tight ends, probably know what they can bring. But your dad Prescott, it's the Cowboys, and you all are relatively evenly matched. And when Tony Pollitt goes down, you got to know it right then. It's up to you to take over. You can't throw two interceptions, particularly getting them in a red zone and giving them six points.

That's what he did. So you look at it from that perspective. There's no way around it. Right now, it's about him. It's not just about him. Kellyn Mordiolianian left some things to be desired as well. That's true. but Dak Prescott should know better and he should do better and he hasn't.

Is it in that to be a Super Bowl winning quarterback? Well, it remains to be seen. I doubt it because where's Jalen Hertz going? He's ascending and he's within the same division, not just the same conference. And so when you got a cat like that standing in your way with an executive like Howard Rosenen who's proven he knows what the hell he's doing, Philadelphia is clearly the better team. Philadelphia is going to make the right proper amount of noise.

Dallas is going to have something to say about it, but Dak has to play in an elevated level and until he does, the answer to that question would be nothing. So real, just the last thing on the Cowboys, because I'm a Saints fan, I can care less about the Cowboys,

but it's interesting right now. Whole Sports World is talking about him. True or false, if the Cowboys want to win a Super Bowl, they have to move on from Dak Prescott. I wouldn't go that far. Okay. I just think he has to be better.

He has to be better. Stephen A, in reading your book, the first chapter of the book was for a guy like me who just lost his father and who had a sometimes strained relationship with his father. My father was around, but we didn't always see eye to eye. the first chapter was particularly affecting for me. Just seeing how your past and the man that you are is shaped by really an absence almost in your life and how that is a part of your story. Not having had sort of the relationship with your father, that's cookie cutter the Cosby Show type of situation.

What did that put into you? How did that affect you? Did it make you better? Did it make you bitter? What did it make you? I think in some cases it made me better than some cases it made me work of it. You know, this good side and bad's everything. And certainly with my relationship with my father, it was not good.

And my resentment, unlike my sisters, my four older sisters who really harbored a strong level of animosity against him because of his infidelity. For me, it was what he did to my mother outside of that. Not that did not matter. But, all right, you better not put your hands on there. You better not have a hit her. We'd kill you. That would be true.

But outside of that, your grown-ups and from an emotional perspective, whatever's going on with y'all, you may not like it as children. But those are two adults and they got to handle it. business. My issue was you didn't pay bills. You left my mother to handle your responsibility. Two jobs, 16 hours a day, seven days a week for over 20 years for one week's vacation. How could you do that to a woman? How could you do that? And so the way that affected me is that, you know how some brothers can be white and black and beyond where you know it's a badge of honor to get women do things for you you know you must be putting it down you must be doing a lot of

different things you know my attitude is i've never taken money from a woman i go out to dinner we go out to dinner i pay because of the movies i pay um we go on vacation i pay um you know you're a woman in my life is my responsibility to take care of me i i'm not that way because of a of women. I'm that way because of what I saw my mother subjected to. And I swore that I would never be the man that my father was when it came to being responsible for your children and your wife. The flip side to it, the bad side is that I haven't been fed of women at any time in my life

when it comes to their relationship with men. in terms of what I hold them accountable for. Because the level of tolerance that I expect comes from what I saw my mother tolerate, not specifically because I would never be as trifling as my father was at times, the drinking, the gambling, the womanized and all of those things. But I'd be there if I've been a saint. And for me, all my life, I was a guy like, that woman my mother

is the greatest woman I've ever seen in my life loving, beautiful, loyal, committed, accomplished registered nurse 25 years, etc., etc., etc. And if she could tolerate this dude for almost 60 years,

certainly some woman should be able to tolerate me. And I would use that, I would use that as an excuse to misbehave. To misbehave. You know, when I was younger, yeah. You're so open and vulnerable in this book. We get to know you off Mike outside of that. And I was curious as I was reading it.

What made you decide to write this book? Why now? Why did you want to let us into your world on a personal level now? Well, I actually thought about it years ago, Rachel, when I had let go by ESPN in 2009, and then they brought me back in 2011. Because a lot of people wanted to know, people were clamoring for me to write a book at that time because they wanted me to tell what happened with ESPN and I. Spilled a team.

Yeah, they wanted it. And I did it in the book, but they wanted me to do it back then. But I knew that I wanted my first book to be about my whole life, not just my professional life. and that if I was going to write a book, that's what I was going to do. My mother knew I was going to do that as well and made me promise her, you will never write this until I'm dead and gone. Because she's a West Indian woman born and raised St. Thomas Virgin Islands, very, very, very private, didn't want anybody knowing her business. And she knew that I would talk about my father in less than four.

flattering terms, which ultimately would be highlighting what she had to endure. And she made me promise, never do this until I'm dead and gone. You have my blessing to do it once I pass away because she had just acquired cancer. And she ended up surviving until 2017. But she had made me promise never to do it. So once she passed away, I had some things to get over in regards to her departure because I was pretty devastated over that, at least for a couple of years. I think about it every day still, of course. She's the greatest woman I've ever known. I was a mama's boy.

And finally in 2020, I'd like his time. And so, you know, in 2021, actually, I just sat down and I wrote it myself for five months. That's what I did. So people are going to be surprised at the candor in which you talk about a lot of things in the book. Almost every single question regarding Stephen A that people have had and gone back and forth and we'll talk about some of the things that we've talked about

on higher learning here in the second that you answer. But also some stuff I didn't know about you. You talked about your vices in the book. And amongst your vices, you said, you know, just like your father, you said women. You know what I mean? Like women. And you know what the question that I had?

had my mind was. Like, Stephen A had been around for a long time getting it. Getting it. I remember from the Sports Illustrated situation all the way. Like, what's Stephen A's body count? Like, you say women are a vice. Like, if Wilk Chamberlain is at 20,000, like, what's Stephen A's body count? Well, first of all, a couple of things. I will never give you that answer. Let's leave it out of the way. That would never have. But I will tell you, it ain't no damn four figures, five figures, or anything like that. I've had my share, and it was primarily when I was younger. It was primarily when I was younger.

It certainly hasn't been in the last 15 to 20 years because I will say this. This is the one line that I will say. You know it's pretty bad when NBA players have to pull you. you decide to tell you you need to stop that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, that's pretty, that's pretty bad. NBA player?

This is, no, no, no, I didn't say NBA player. I said players. He had plural. Okay, plural. Players was like telling me, yo, you need to chill because, you know, and it was earlier in my time as an NBA beat writer. I was on the road for the first time,

and I was traveling 200 days out of the year. And I was sitting the city and single, with no kids and no committed relationship. And I'm a different kind of animal. And what I mean by that is that you got a lot of cats that will tell you, you know, they'll say one thing and they're lying. I didn't lie, bro. I didn't lie, Rachel.

They're like, look, I'm on a road 200 plus days out of the year. You have no chance in hell of keeping me in a committed relationship because I'm not going to behave. if you want to get what me and be good. If you don't, I respect that. But please understand

I'm not looking for no committed relationship. Damn. I'm very, very clear about that. And you'd be surprised how many women A, appreciated that honesty. Not surprised at all.

I'm not surprised at all. And, A, appreciated that honesty. And B, their mentality was, I'll change him. I'll change that thinking. And so it would go from there. Now, later on. on in life, there was always people that felt that I was lying. And my mentality was I wasn't lying.

What I did back then was tell you where I stood. You decided you wanted to mess with me anyway. What the hell am I supposed to do? Come back and give you a blow-by-blow detail account of what the hell I just did the night before or something. No, I wasn't going to do that. And so for me, that's just how it was. But eventually I calmed down because you get older, you grow up. You meet some sensation of women with a lot of substance to them, and you start feeling sleazy. And all of a sudden, it's like, nah, now that don't make you a same meaning that you in a monogamous relationship, but I wasn't hoeing around. I wasn't doing that because I didn't want to do that, you know, and a lot of times, and you know this, man, whether you're willing to

admit it or not is another story. A lot of times, it ain't about what we actually do. It's knowing we can. Yeah, of course. So what we're really gillard. of is the emotional relationships. Yeah. Because no matter how fly you are, no matter how much you got it going on, and I never thought that I was that damn fly to begin with with my peanut head self. But the point

is, is that for me, it was like, okay, no matter what I feel, there's always something inside of you that questions whether or not you got it like that. Yeah. And so you never assume that, oh, if I dumped this girl, I'll have another one

waiting for me. You didn't rate you. We most men we don't do that. And that's where the emotional ties come from because in case you find yourself alone, you got some way to go. And a lot more often than not, we're more guilty of the emotional relationships than the actual physical relationship.

That don't mean we're innocent now. But you don't get me wrong. But it does mean the emotions are more palpable than the physicals because we really try to hedge our bets. And that's something that most dudes ain't going to admit, but it's true because the reality is physically, if you're about stuff,

you don't have time to do the kind of stuff that women a lot of times think we're doing. You just don't have time. Yeah. So yes or no question. Is it north of 500, Stephen A? Van. No. Not even close.

No. Not even close, he said. No, I'm not that dude. Not even close. No, I'm not that dude. I've had my share of women, but it ain't that damn many. All right?

You know he's also the bros, right? Oh, is he? Also the bros. Oh, okay. Well, that adds to the whole thing because we know how they get down. I know all about the common love. I came late. I didn't become a member until 2012.

Okay. When they came to me and approached me, I didn't, you know, I wasn't that in college or anything like that. That was after that. That was, yeah. Speaking of relationships, you have a chapter where you talk about Skip Bayliss and first take, the beginning of the first take, which I know a lot of people are going to be eager to read if they haven't already. And there's a story you tell about Skip making a ludicrous comment about athletes avoiding clubs. And you noted that you disagreed with him on the comment, but you still thought it was good TV. My question is, seeing where Skip Bayliss is now and certain things that have transpired over the last few years, do you still think that Skip Bayliss is good TV?

And if so, why? Well, I think that's for somebody else's determination to make everybody's got their attention. in their flavor. I would tell you that for the purposes of a debate show what makes him exceptional is the fact that he's a natural born contrarian. He is the kind of person that does not like to think conventionally and he doesn't like to go along with the crowd. He likes to stand out. And so whatever opinions he has, he doesn't fake them. They are authentic opinions, but he searches for where they are. So he can be different and he can separate him. himself from the crowd. That's just a natural-born instinct he has that has worked wonders for him.

He's made him about $6 million a year. It's made him over $50 million over the last six to seven years. So obviously, when you come from the business that we come from, where you are making $100,000, $200,000 or whatever, and then, you know, you're talking the kind of numbers that I just doled out based on his two contracts with FS1 that were reported. the reality is that it works for him, and he's fine with that. For me personally, I thought differently of certain things that he felt when we were on the air together.

I feel that way that we're off the air together. I feel that way now. I did not agree with his position on Dak Prescott last year, although I understood where he was coming from, and I thought that people kind of misconstrued what he was saying. I still disagree with him. You made that Prescott in his mental health situation? Yes, yes, sir. Yes, I was just like my mentality is that that's too deep of an issue to bring in football, to bring in like, I don't want my opponent knowing about whatever mental ailments I might have. Nah, that I just don't, I don't agree with that. So I would, I definitely would have disagreed with him there. I certainly would have disagreed with him when it came to the whole DeMar Hamlin situation as well in the tweet that he put out. He doesn't feel.

that way and that's his barrageous. But I obviously disagree with him with something like that. That's it. Of course, I disagree with him about Tebow. Of course, I disagree with him about LeBron. Of course, I disagree with him about quite a few things. I would never call Russell Westbrook, West Brick.

I wouldn't call Chris Bosch, Spice Bosch. I wouldn't do those things. That's just not my style. But I do understand that he's his own man and that's how he feels. And, you know, the audience will either be receptive, receptive to it or they won't, and that's his business. Do you think that he treats Shannon Sharp differently than he treated you when you guys were

on the same show together? It seems that a lot of people, I'm not even going to beat around the bush, I have a problem sometimes with the way Skip deals with Shannon Sharp, cutting Shannon Sharp off when he was trying to do his monologue, belittling his career up against Tom Brady. I didn't see that same energy when he was sitting down there with you. Do you think he's fair to Shannon Sharpe? Sharp, do you think he's maybe changed since he's got a little years on him? I didn't think it was fair that he was making a point against Shannon Sharp that

you're not Tom Brady because when Shannon Sharp said, you treat me like a bum, I'm a three times of a bowl champion. I'm a hall of famer. And he said, so what? It's like you're trying to win an argument and it went too far. That's just my personal opinion. when you say what he treat Skip is Skip. You have to make sure you're different.

Like, I know Skip. And so there are certain lines that I don't believe he would ever cross with me because he knows I know him. And he knows that I have love for him even when he's at his worst. And unlike somebody like Shannon who probably takes the. path of simply not saying anything, I'm somebody who can talk to skip. I'm somebody who can approach him. I'm somebody who can be angry at him. I'm somebody that's got in a knockdown, drag out fights with him in the past. You know, and, you know, when he, when, you know, it was well known, well documented by him, not me, when during the NBA finals and he goes on a 45-minute

diatribe on his podcast about, you know, how meaningless I was. and all of this other stuff because he had misconstrued something that I said on JJ Reddick's podcast. Man, I flew out to L.A. to see him. I mean, I was going out there, don't get me wrong. I was on my way out there in a couple of days. But I made sure

to make a B-line to his crib to have that conversation face to face. Because I thought it was totally unnecessary. And he completely misconstrued what I said. And then where he understood where I was coming from, he explained himself and I let it go.

But at the end of the day, like I said, Shannon might not do that. And I got me personally, I got a lot of respect for Shannon. I'm genuinely fond of him. And in my own roundabout way, I'm proud of him because I played a role in being with Skip. Because if you remember,

Skip knew he was leaving ESPN, but there were days he was still on first take. and I wasn't there because I was covering the NBA and Shannon would fill in. I knew what was going on. I wasn't blinded at. And so to me, it's important because I'm just, look, man, I'm not just a black man.

I'm a brother. And if I have an opportunity to help a brother's sister out in terms of getting them in the seat, putting them in a position where they can maximize opportunities that are presented to them, I'm going to do it. And so when I saw that handwriting on the wall for Shannon to ultimately elevate himself to that possibility, it was definitely something I was supportive of. And I've always been supportive of Shannon.

Even when he does stuff wrong, I'm going to always be supportive of him. And, you know, if he asked my, I'm not going to volunteer because he's his own man. But if he ever asked me for my advice, I'm going to be there to help him as best as I possibly can. And I'm certainly not going to put a nail in any coffin of his. I can tell you that. That's just the way it's going to be. I feel like this was speculated a while back, but is there ever a chance that you and Skip will work together again?

I don't think so at this point, but that has nothing to do with our relationship or lack thereof that people want to allude to. Skip and I are fine. Skip is just in his own. I'm doing my thing. First takes number one. First takes been number one for 11 years.

It's number one now. It's going to be number one. How much long I'm going to do it remains to be seen. I want to do late night television. I started my own production company where I'm produced, you know, I'm in the process of producing TV and film, TV shows and films, scripted and unscripted. I've got my own podcast, no mercy with the tag behind me that I do three days a week. I've got a lot of things that I'm working on that I have an aspiration to do.

Another debate show or rekindling what once was is no longer on that radar. that has nothing to do with Skip Bayliss or anybody else, that just has everything to do with me. If ESPN wants me to stay on first take and they make it worth my while, then obviously that's something I was strongly consider. But that's not just about money. Money's a part of it. I'm unapologetic about that.

You are going to pay me. But it's not just about that. It's also about me having this sensational appetite to avoid being, being limited to just sports. I want to do a multitude of other things and I want to have the freedom to do it. And if ESPN grants me that freedom and they want me to stay,

then I see myself being here for years to come if they decide to go in a different direction in terms of not wanting me to do those other things and they want to restrict me to the world of sports, then chances are you're going to see me say goodbye It was a good ride and I've got a lot of great relationships and I wish everybody well. Another thing in the book that you address directly is some of the criticisms that people have had of you do the various things that you've discussed. Or even criticisms that people might have of your friendship with Sean Hannity or situations like that.

I want to ask a Sean Hannity question later. But I want to make sure that I tell you that I've been critical at different times here on this podcast. and in my life before when I was on TMZ of sometimes feeling alienated by your purview or the way you would look at things as a black man thinking that it seems like sometimes Stephen A is more critical of the actual black man than he is of the system

that necessitates a black man act a certain way. It's crystallized during the entire Colin Kaepernick thing. Everyone on this, everyone that listens to the show knows that I'm friends with Colin Kaepernick and Nessa. And I thought at that time, if I'm going to be honest with you, that maybe your relationship with the NFL,

I'm talking about when the workout waiver happened and all of those things happened, that maybe your relationship with the NFL or maybe even Rock Nation or whatever, maybe clouded or soured your commentary on Kaepernick a little bit because it seemed like it was so pointed and that you were so hard on him. While at the same time admitting that he was the victim of injustice,

I didn't understand it. I couldn't, that was the first time that I think I couldn't find a conduit to understand where Stephen A. was coming from. And we have a mutual friend in Terrell Owens. A lot of brothers felt that way. you're addressing in the book, what do you say to somebody that says maybe Stephen A was working on behalf of the NFL

when it, as it relates to Colin Kaepernick? Okay, a couple of things. Number one, I'm very familiar with what you've said about me over the years. I want you to know face to face as a brother. I have no issue with you, what you've said about me at any point. You're a smart brother.

You've done a lot. I've always had profound respect for you. even when I disagree with you and I certainly wholeheartedly believe in your right to say the things that you've said, I'm cool with you. Ain't no problems whatsoever.

So let's get that out the way. Number two, Terrell Owens, you said we have a mutual friend. Carol Owens is no friend of mine. He's no friend of mine. Let me be very, very clear about that. He's no friend of mine. Once upon a time, yeah,

I'm done with that, brother. He knows why. Is this because of what happened on first take? No. It's because it's because after that he had the audacity to go behind my back and try to file a lawsuit against me claiming that I've done something, that I did something I've never done in my life. And that's taken off the record conversation and put it on the air. I didn't know such thing. Terrell Owens did that. And he tried to swindle money out of ESPN by saying that I did something that I did not do. I don't wish him any harm or anything like that. I will never speak to him

again in life without an apology. And we both know he ain't going to apologize. So I'm done with that. That's number two. Number three, anybody who knows me, there does come a point in time being where your work should speak for you. You can have an opinion about what you're hearing from me. What I get a annoyed by when it comes to us as a people sometimes is that we look at the agenda instead of looking at the position and just judging the position. If you want to disagree with my position about Colin Kaepernick-Fondon, why does it have to be I'm working for the NFL? No, I just happen to have an opinion that might be different from somebody else's about Colin Kaepernick. That's all. I do not work for the NFL. I don't answer to the NFL. I'm critical of the NFL all the time. I've been critical of the

Players Association all the time. I've been critical of the NBA all the time. Players, coaches, executives, owners, the list goes commissioners, the list goes on and on. I have a career spanning over a quarter century that provides factual evidence to what I just said. It ain't conjecture. It's all out there. So I don't, I disagree with that part. Now let's go down list by list. So we go to the Colin Capnik situation. Notice that you started off your point by seen, he's a friend. He is. Well, Colin Kaepernick ain't no friend of mine.

He's not an enemy. I have nothing against him, but I don't know him. Okay? So my point is, but notice, you wouldn't hear me say, you feel the way that you feel because he's your friend. No, you have the preponderance of evidence placed before you. And based on that, I respect you enough to say, that's how you feel based on what you know. Right. Well, I know a few things, right?

And so my position has always been he was blackballed. It was wrong. He didn't violate any laws. He didn't violate any NFL bylaws. What's happened to him is wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he wants to be in the lead. Okay, what you're going to do to stay in the, what are you going to do to get back in the league? Because very few people sue a corporation or an entity and then end up going back to work for them.

That doesn't happen too often. So what are you going to do to get it back? Well, didn't it happen at ESPN? Didn't Sage still Sue ESPN and didn't she? I don't I swear to you I don't know the details about that at all. For all I know it was an HR matter.

They wrote the report about that was happening and the stuff has been settled and they were allowing her to fulfill a contract. I don't know what the hell was going on with that. I don't know. Okay. That's my honest God answer. But anyway, what I'm saying is

that if I'm looking at a Kaepernick and I know he wants these things, so I go to a station in New York to promote an HBCU event and this brother, there's a whole bunch of people around these Kaepernick shirts on it. I didn't know what was going on. And this young brother comes up and I often shake his hand. Credit to him, he still shook my hand.

But he told me, I really got a problem with you, man. We really got a problem with the positions that you take. That's what are you talking about. And he says, well, and he starts explaining what positions I take. I said, no, I said this. I didn't say that. I said this. I didn't say that.

Blah, blah, blah. And he said, well, there's somebody here that wants to meet you. And there's Nessa, Captainix lady, sitting in the studio, you know, rocking back and forth, wondering if I'm going to come. My manager's like, no, we're not going in there. I said, oh, yes to hell we are. Let's go. She wants to see me.

I'm right here. So we go in there, we talk. She's giving me her position. I give her mind. And I said to her, so I'm going to tell you something. I said, what am I supposed to do? You guys weren't reachable. You weren't talking to the media.

You don't want to do that. I said, am I supposed to go to his woman to get a comment from him? Is that what you're asking me to do? I mean, come on now. I mean, that's a stretch. If you don't know the party, that's a lot of trust to place in somebody. You can't, you know, you can speak for him, but that's a dangerous position for me to take. Nevertheless, we had that conversation.

And I said to Nessa, here's my phone number. From this day forward, you have my word. whatever you tell me to say on your behalf, I will say verbatim as long as you allow me to court you. And there will be no discrepancy any longer. From that point forward, we had a pretty good relationship for a couple of months or whatever just talking, right? Denny wants to try it.

She's like, hey, is there any way you can help us get a trial with a team? We'll come to find out. They asked you this. Nessa, yes. Yes, she did. Nessa, Colin Kaepernick's wife, his lady, asked you to help them give a tryout. Yes.

Is there a way to help us get a trial with at least one team? And I said, we all push him because we know what's been done to him is wrong. And I said, so we all, I said, absolutely. So what happened is, I said, come to find out, we hear about the NFL. I get a call from an NFL source connected to the negotiations and all the stuff. The quote was this specifically. Colin Kaepernick will have to throw the ball into the stands not to have a job in two weeks. Quote, end quote.

I go on national TV. I echo that. I'm telling them this is what the deal is. They talk about three teams showing us. I said, oh, no. I'm being told a minimum of 24 teams are showing up. They're going to have it at this facility. They're going to have team personnel there.

A lot of African Americans are going to be in attendance, blah, blah, blah. And so all of this is going down. And then when I said that, I text her and I tell her, listen, I understand y'all hesitation about everything because the waiver isn't the same as traditional players. the NFL, quote, quote, told me personally, counsel for the NFL. They said, of course, the wave is not the same. We've never been in this position before. We have never conducted a tryout for an individual player in NFL history.

We lead that to a respective team. It's not the league. So, of course, it would be different because we have to protect ourselves. As a league, this is the same guy that just sued us. and we have to protect ourselves. I go on the air, I say all of this, I say all of this. And I tell her, and I say,

you should take the tryout. And then at the last minute, he has the tryout, instead of at the location, he has the tryout at the high school place. I knew for a fact, the day he did that, his NFL career was over.

Let me ask you a question. One more, I don't want to take away. Why do you think that he did that? The question, from my understanding is that the amended waiver, the different

waiver, there's language in the waiver. Yes. That puts Colin Kaepernick in an unfavorable position and that his attorneys wouldn't even let him sign that waiver. Okay. If that isn't true and Colin I'm not saying it's not true. I know. But if Colin

Kaepernick wants to be in the league, right, which we all know that he does, and he can't can't sign that waiver. I don't understand where the criticism comes from because it seems to... I'm going to explain to you. Sure. I'm going to explain to you.

Okay. The waiver, I don't expect someone that I sued and got millions from if I'm going back to try and work for them to be fair to me. I don't expect that, number one. So you acknowledge that the NFL was being unfair in that position, but you think that... If, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, you know, if, if, if, if, I don't expect that. I'm If what Colleen Kaepernick was saying is true about the waiver, his waiver compared to the others. Okay.

Absolutely. Yeah. I don't have a problem with that. I get what he's coming from. I'm not questioning. I never question the validity of Colin Kaepenick's position. I was making the point. You know this already.

You know there's no way in hell they're going to be fair to you. You know there's no way in hell that they're going to make it easy. They're going to protect themselves with several layers because they don't want to find themselves in a position where you could sue them again. So they're going to go all out to protect themselves. At the end of the day, you knew this and still said, I want to be in the NFL. And I'm saying if you don't show up for this tryout,

there is no way they're going to give you another one. They're going to talk to talk. But those 32 owners that run the NFL who pay Roger Goodell, they're not going to do it. It'll be a miracle. It'll be a miracle. and so far I've been right

anymore I know I know it's a big deal for you I guess my thing is now because when I called you when I asked Rachel for your phone number a couple of weeks ago to get in touch with you it was to speak about this

not about any differences that we might have had but to talk about the fact that in my opinion Stephen A let me just tell you the way I look at it I think Colin Kaepernick not being able to perform his life's work is an incredible indictment of culture and that it is a it's an incredible tragedy that he can't do that when all he did was take a stand in the gap for black people brown people people that are being people people that are being assaulted by

the fan you just brought up something rachel allowed me to get very very personal with van for a second because i got a lot of respect for you bro You know, I thought it was incredibly unfair when I got fired. I think it's incredibly unfair that it took three choices for Terrell Owens to be a Hall of Fame when he was clearly one of the top few wide receivers in the history of football. I think it's been incredibly, incredibly unfair, you know, what happened to you in your career. I'm going to get into those. That's your business, your details, and you know all my hell of a lot of it.

But what I'm saying to you is, well, what you bring to the table, the level of authenticity, See, a lot of people get, for example, they get on Ye. They get on Kanye West now. But you got on him before a lot of people did. Because you sense what the hell was happening. You know, and not that that was any, that has anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm just talking about the level of credibility that you had and what you brought to the table is to be respected. we can all point to shit that ain't fair.

It's a given. It's understandable. But if I knew you, if I knew you, if you were my boy, then we out of flu out of L.A., we'd have had a conversation. Because I would have said to you,

you know what I would have said to you? I don't give a shit that you write. Your voice is too important. And you got to make sure that you're mindful of. of that and that you don't lose sight of the big picture and the end game, which is the war because it's important to you to win these battles. Perfect example. Shannon Sharp, the day after the Hamlin thing, I understood what he was feeling as a football player and where he was coming

from. My advice to him would have been, no matter what you feel, make sure you're sitting in that chair. That's your chief. You have any idea how hard we've had to work to have those shares, to have that voice, to make sure that we're disseminating a message to the masses and we're thinking about the marathon, not the sprint? I didn't get on Colin Kaepinick because I thought Cali Kappa Nick was wrong. I got on Colin Kaepernick because I thought his actions were futile as it pertained to what he and Nessa said they wanted for themselves. The movement was bigger. The purpose was bigger. He deserved to be defended to the unfe degree on that.

But the moment he said it was important for him to return to football and Mephtha approached me about wanting him to return to football, my focus is, okay, what's going to get you there? What's going to work? And what I would say to both of y'all is I believe that at times in our community, we have a huge, huge problem. one of it obviously and all of us are guilty of it

I'm guilty of it y'all are guilty of it we're all guilty of it our emotions get the best of us yeah that definitely happens to me okay that's absolutely true that's absolutely true but the other thing that gets in our way

it's an inability at times because of those emotions to recognize the big picture and the understanding is a greater play down the road you Rachel Lindsay you doing big things. If I see you doing something,

because I know her. So if I see her doing something and I think that's going to get in the way, Rachel, you've been around me. What am I going to do? I know you're going to come at me. I'm going to call her, bro. I'm not going to go on the air

or do something like that. I know her. But I'm going to call her and be like, uh-uh, this is getting in the way. Nobody's telling you to compromise who you are and compromise your true authentic self. What we're saying is, tell me a point in time.

history, man. Any black leader you can find, any black person, tell me one of them. That's never had to compromise with capitulate. That's never had to get to a point where they got to swallow deep because there's a bigger play down the road that's far more important than the battle that we got here right now. If there's one thing that I believe that I've elevated myself to in this business is that I have been through to terrain that is corporate America for decades. Bro, I know this shit. And there are certain things.

There are certain things that I'm like, yeah, I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do that. But it ain't worth it. Even if I got away with it, they're going to make sure the next brother and sister don't. And I got to look out for all of us as best as I can. That's my mentality. I feel you.

And I understand what you're saying. I really, to be honest with you, man, I feel like I understand you so much better now. Not that that matters to you, but it's just there's a part of me that, and, you know, I think that there are leaders in our past that have had maybe more militant stances and maybe haven't capitulated,

but that's neither here nor there. As far as I'm concerned, and I think that's why conversations like this are good, is there's a push-pull about how long we're going to be able to do that, and actually be able to stand on our own two feet and have our personhood, um,

valued, understood and represented. So I don't think that- Hold on that thought. Okay. I'm not saying, I'm not saying time has anything to do with it. I'm saying case by case basis.

Some things I will be militant about. Like when I went off about Kyrie, I'm like, wait a minute. I've been critical of this brother, but y'all ain't go come and put some, a list of stipulations for him that you ain't do for nobody else

when we know it's white dudes out there screwing around and all of this other stuff like when they did with email you talk to I went off about him and what they treated him and they treated him differently they treated Kyrie differently

than they're going to treat some white dudes that would have done the same thing. There are certain things you get militant about so it's not time is that there are certain things that are worth the fight and there are other things

that are not. That's what I'm saying. Word up. Fair, fair enough. Fair enough. I have you had the conversation. I mean, he did his thing. I mean, I can't know. I would be fighting just a single fight. He's all great points. And you've given us so much time.

I want to ask you this because it kind of ties into what you were saying and it's so relevant right now. You talk about being, going to an HBCU, being a student athlete. Curious as to what your take is on what's happening right now at Bethune Cookman and with Ed Reed and And all the talk surrounding that, you see the students that are protesting right now on campus. I'm just curious to see your opinion about that and what's going on. And maybe for the future of these former Hall of Fame athletes coming in to these coaching positions, some experience, lack thereof. I'm just really curious your take on that. Well, I'm concerned.

As a support of HBCUs, I've generated over 12,000 scholarships in excess of $25 million to HBCU week. led by Ashley Christopher and a few other people who've done phenomenal jobs along with Disney on the yard and others. We just had a great event a few months ago. I would tell you that people at HBCUs need to be careful because the issue has been garnering support from those outside the HBCU world to elevate their profile and ultimately their pocketbooks and their cachet. and this is not the way to pull it off. Dion Sanders arrives at Jackson State. I understand that there's a plethora of brothers at HBCU that helped him get to where he is

and they don't feel like he's appreciative enough, et cetera, et cetera. What I would argue is that he went there, he won. Not only did he win, he brought ramped up attention to HBCUs and the plights that HBCU's face. not only that, he's the first black man from an HBCU to get hired at a Big Five school, which opens the doors for others to come through and pull it off themselves.

Some of the players that would have never been at one of those Big Five schools have transferred with him to attend a Big Five school. That may not have happened. And so we got to take that in the consideration and be more appreciative rather than cynical of what but he's been able to pull off. You look at Ed Reed, but through Cookman, I don't agree that Ed Reed should have handled it the way that he did. I'm not condoning that. You don't put the school on blast like that.

It wasn't necessary. That was beyond the pill. And to me, you can't work with an institution that you talked about like that. After you go on that type of tirade, you can't do it. The flip side is that we're not blind. He wasn't wrong. And the environment that he was in left a lot to be desired. And Bethune Cookman has to be accountable for that.

At the end of the day, what HBCUs have to understand, especially, and I spoke out against this, and this hit me near to my heart. I actually called the chancellor at Winston Salem State University about this. when that young lady got escorted out of the classroom in handcuffs, I called the chancellor immediately. What the hell is that? And Stephen, you know, I got it and she was really belligerent. She was dead. I said, did she break any laws?

Did she put her hands on anybody? I said because if she didn't, there is no excuse in the world for a young black, woman to be escorted out of a classroom in handcuffs. That is a horrible look. And then I went on national TV and brought it up and talked about my alma mater, which I was very ashamed of in that moment. And so I say all of that to say, HBCUs have to understand we're under a microscope. and what one looks like presumably taints so many others and if you're about building HBCUs

there's a way to handle it and it goes back to what I said to some degree with you Van in terms of what we were talking about and everything that Colin Capnik and beyond at some point in time Rachel and Van we got

we got to be tired of losing like it's horrible that there's a game that has to be played but in the same breath it's worse to lose at it especially when you know how to play the game and you just lose because you're unwilling to my point is there's certain things I'm not playing that damn game there are other things I'm like okay this is the game that's played because it's inescapable so I'm going to beat them at the whole game and that is the decision that have to make if we're going to truly accomplish what we're destined to and what we truly

richly deserve. It's just the way it goes. As the Bible would say, if you got created to earth and the devil was still there. There's always going to be obstacles in your path. That's just how it goes. How you deal with it is what defines ultimately who you are and who you're going to be. The book is Straight Shooter. That was Stephen A. Smith.

Hey, man, I've never done this before, but I want to tell you that in light of recent things that have happened on this podcast, I'm very thankful for this conversation. Yeah. Seriously, in a real way. I appreciate this conversation. I know that we kept you a little longer. You stayed a little longer. I appreciate you. I appreciate that you did, man.

And it was good to connect and good to talk with you. No problem, man. Well, listen, Rachel's got my number and you got it the other week and know anything y'all need. just reach out. You know, I'm always here. All right. Thank you for joining us on Highland. Thank you so much. And the book is so good. The book is amazing. Thank y'all so much. I really, really appreciate it, man.

Y'all take you. I got the audio book too. That's selling good as well. I bought that too. I bought the audio book. They gave me that one for free. It's your voice. It's his voice. Oh, but I got to go back. It's his voice. He got into it in the first chapter.

In the first chapter, he gave us some Christmas time in Hollis Queens. He got a little happy. Yeah. But appreciate it. Thank you, Stephen A, seriously, man. No problem, man. Thank y'all so much for having me. Y'all take care.

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There's one more thing I want to talk about. first of all Donnie Stephen A. Smith interview, what did you think? It was refreshing. It was good. I felt like

it was everything I wanted it to be. I felt like I learned a little bit about him. And I'm going to say that your icebreaker question. Well, it wasn't the icebreaker question, but the planned icebreaker question,

the body count, turned out awesome. It worked. It worked. It worked. I bet Stephen A. got more than 500. If it's NBA...

He said not even close. If it's NBA players, think about that. It just means he was in a certain circle. He just means he was with a certain circle, yeah, when he corrected you. Because I heard the S on the end of player. Yeah. And you were like, play, uh-uh. I just want to be correct.

So he would have told you if the numbers were... Can you imagine, though, how busy Stephen A had to be getting for a guy, like, let's say, like a James Harden to be like, hey, dog, you need to slow down. Seriously, man. But in his book, he talks. about how he would do something and then he would go where they hang out. It's true. So he would do what he had to do and then he'd be out with them wherever it may be.

So he was in the mix. The book is actually really good. Yeah, the book's good. It's a good read. I want to talk to you guys about something that's going on. I realize something, Rachel. What's happening? I realized something.

I realized that I have like a real housewives. What do you mean? You know how you watch the real housewives? Oh, you have a version of it. Oh my gosh, please tell me. I have a version of the real housewives. What is it? No Jumper.

You watch it like that? So you don't understand what happens at No Jumper, I don't think. Well, we've had Adam on. We've had Adam on. But No Jumper isn't just like Adam talking to somebody with a podcast. No Jumper is like a whole universe of, it's really like a reality show. Is it? Yeah.

Is that Girl's Salon? Who? Selina Pyle? When people accused me of not being pro-women or women or whatever it was. Why? Because the girl fucked all the sons and you were shitting on her for it? I said that's not what she signed up to do. She signed up to be one man.

They came through the door and put seven dicks in her face. She said she, I just don't like to hear you say words like that. It's like you are wholesome rage at this point. And when you say it. The subject matter. When you can. So look, but these things about no jumper is like, No Jumper started off with Adam

just interviewing people but now they have like a whole cast of characters on No Jumper. Okay, that like interview other people. They interview other people and they do content together. So this is the No Jumper roster to me.

It's Adam Little House phone. Okay. Sharp. Shut out. Shout the fuck out to Sharp. You got to get sharp on this podcast, man. Okay.

Sharp. It's a sharp tank. Sharpest, coolest. Podcasts in the world. It's my friend, AD, okay,

Compton AD, who to me is one of the brightest voices in this hip-hop thing going right now. It's Flacco, it's Gina, it's lush,

I know I'm going to leave somebody out. Trail, suspect. It's like so many different people that are all together like on no jumper, right? And they have,

beefs like flaco called out lush for a flight a couple of days yeah like so they're going to get a reality show soon they already got one it's a no jumper verse almighty suspect uh was interviewing this guy named kelpie the pimp okay and he attacked kelpie the pimp and beat the shit out of him while he was interviewing kelpie the pimp or kelpie the player kelpie the peltie it's kelpie to pimp Kelpie the Pimp. Kelpie the Pimp is like slow white boy that's like... What? Look it up.

Look up. Almighty suspect, Kelpie the Pimp. Wait, is mentally challenged? Nah, I don't mean, I would never say he was slow. I don't even know how to spell Kelpie the Pimp. Kelpie. Look up. Kelpie and almighty suspect.

And watch what suspect does. The thing says fake Pimp, Lil Kelpie gets beat up at no jumper. Yeah, play it. Watch. Kelpie the Pimp. They don't know each other? No, they interview here. interviewing once before.

They're interviewing Kelpy. Yeah, Adam and suspect are interviewing Kelpy. Took off on him. Kelpie to pee. Adam gets out of the way. Adam fucking folded. Adam.

Look at Adam. Acting like he's acting like he's trying to pull him. Adam. Adam, my guy. Well, I made fun of Adam. Adam went like this. Adam, my guy. If you go back, Adam, Adam folded, man.

Look at Adam. Look. Adam, my man. Look, he pretended like he tried to grab him. Adam, my man, Adam, not,

I mean, come on, man. He wasn't used to, he didn't think this. That needs to be a meme. They already meaned it. You know, this.

They already mamed it. Okay, so look. I'm hooked. So look, so look, man, there was so much stuff

that's been going on, man, you know, Flocko left the Monday show. Gina and suspect were mad, man, shout out Gina. They just had a, a whole situation where

um, Gina and Sharp interview Chrison. She threw the whole studio. She tore her whole studio up. But something happened on No Jumper that I have to talk about. Okay. Because I have to get your take on this.

Because I wonder what our audience would think about this. And you guys, we've already nourished you enough. This is the interstamment section. This is the bullshit section. Yes. We have to talk about this. Little House phone is Adam 22's pot. He's been doing No Jumper with Adam 22 for a long time.

It's a rapper. Got a hard record called Tokyo Goons that I like. But I want to know what you think about this, Rachel. Okay. I'm making you the arbiter of this. Okay? You're the arbitration judge here. This is what happened.

Adam has a podcast called Sledge Lords. That he does. Sledge? I guess. Okay. That he does with this like this guy named Danny Muller, this comedian who all these racist jokes or whatever. Oh, nice.

Nice, Adam. What's Adam? It's Adam. And on this podcast, they had a, trans porn star name Gracie James. Okay.

Now, Gracie James had met Adam at the Avians because Adam is also a porn star. I don't know if you knew that. I did. We talked about that before. Yeah. So, so Adam went to the Avians. There was this moment that he had with this lady at the thing. And

he decided, hey, I want to bring her on Sledge Lords and they talk about it. But when he had put whatever he put up on Instagram about the moment, she went under the captions and Instagram and said, hey, you know me, ask house phone about me. Adam's free.

Housephone has a good. One of the people under no jumper. The jumper verse. Okay. Part of the jumper verse. The jumper verse. Okay.

Shout to Duno too. I don't know. I didn't bring, I didn't say Duno's name. Duno is one of the, shout out to Duno. Okay. All right.

Duno is a big part of the jump reverse as well. Shout out to Duna. Um. So they then go on the podcast and they're doing the podcast. And apparently throughout the podcast, this Gracie Jane lady continues to say Housephone's name. What happened was they tried to take it out a bunch of times. But apparently at the end, Danny, the guy from Sledge Lords says Housephone's name. So now people know that the person that she's been alluding to that she slept with all the time is House Phone.

Okay. Now, this is a part of it that's, that's, that's tough. Housephone, Adam calls Housephone, tells Housephone that this happened. Housephone apparently asked Adam not to put the podcast out. Okay. Adam says, we'll edit it, we'll put the podcast out anyway, didn't happen. Podcasts went out. Podcasts got, some of the stuff got edited, but some of the stuff didn't.

And House phone was. I mean Look Honestly is this There's still a stigma To some people No it is About having a relationship with the trans woman

Not saying that that stigma is right I'm saying that there's still a stigma To some people about having a relationship with transom Essentially How a lot of people feel Is that Adam Outed House phone Click some views

I just got to tell you something from what I know. This has put a rift in the jumper verse like I've never seen before. There are members of the jumper verse that are straight mad. Adam came back and some people say, I love Adam,

but some people say Adam gave a half-hearted explanation as to why this happened. He came back and addressed it. It said it was basically all one big mistake. But he didn't really, and then house phone basically came out and said, hey, yeah, I had a relationship with Gracie back in the day, and this is what it was, and blah, blah, blah, blah.

But some people are upset. Some people are upset. He went on there and he talked to academics. It hashed it out. My question to you. He hashed it out with Adam or he was just... He hashed it out with Adam. He hashed out with academics.

They talked. Rachel, the judge of the bullshit. Okay. Who do you think is wrong in this situation? Adam. I don't even have to think twice about it. You've got to be kidding me. I want to be very clear here.

Adam created no jumper. Adam is the boss of no jumper. He owns no jumper. Adam owns no jumper. So he has an interest in the success of no jumper. Yes. He has complete control on what goes out from the jumper verse, is my understanding? However, they have so many shows.

that his explanation is he cannot possibly watch every single show that goes. Okay, but he was in this interview. Yes. So he was a part of this. He didn't have to watch it because he was in it. He was there. How his phone is his friend? Really close.

So he started off great because he went to him and said, hey, this happened. So this happened in this interview and I want you to be aware of it. That is what a friend is supposed to do. The next step for that friend is to not air the interview. If I knew something, if I had information about you, and I didn't know how you would take it, and your response is once I share that information with you, please don't air it, I'm not airing it.

I'm not airing it at all. Like the whole interview. I'm not airing it. They have so much content. They have so many other. It's one interview. If you're my guy and you ask me not to do it, and I genuinely understand where your conversation,

coming from, right? Like, not like, oh, it was a waste of my time. You know, not like that. More of like this situation where you're pleading with me asking me, I'm not airing it, hands down. And that should have been Adams move right then and there. You put your personal interest, financial interest, the business over your friend. And even if you were going to air it, you should not have to, because this is your friendship, you shouldn't have to depend on on somebody else to monitor that. You should have personally said you could have taken the hour out of your day to listen to the entire thing to make sure your friend was protected if it was that important for you to air that interview. Adam claims that had the decision been made to not air the interview that Gracie would have been so upset that she would have aired house phone out anyway.

That's fine. And she already did. Didn't you tell me she wrote under an Instagram post? That's what I didn't see the Instagram post, but Adam says that she wrote on an Instagram post. And that's, let her do that. You don't be the reason because you couldn't have known that before. I'm assuming that he didn't know any of that information prior to Gracie revealing it. So you put that on great, let Gracie make that decision. And then that's between Gracie and Housephone. But you now have put yourself in the middle of it. He's wrong. I'll be damned if I ask you not to air something and then you air it. You think that, Rachel, do you think I want you to be mad at me? No, otherwise I would be like suspect. Oh. Oh. Can you imagine if we had a situation like that? Suspect got, Suspect got me.

Kelpie just didn't rise to the occasion there. No, you know what? I'll be honest with you. No one rose to the occasion there. Pimp, pimp, kelpie, whatever his name is. I'm a pimp kelpie you. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I suspect, look, okay, so you feel like, so tomorrow is the Tuesday show on No Jumper

and everybody's going to be. Who's showing up? Everybody? I feel like everybody's going to show up. This is what I'll do. He's getting the ratings that he wants because he got one new viewer right here. Let's make a pact right now.

When we do this bullshit segment, I almost want to say that we should maybe get back into batch reviews. You don't want to do that, I bet. I'm not now. Speaking of a waste of time. I miss batch. You go, premieres tonight.

Did you know that? I know, but so couldn't we just do maybe? First night? Just like I'll watch tonight and then I'll just, just, I'll watch tonight and then I'll give just my overall. Okay, you watch that tonight and I'll watch TMZ. Oh, no, no, no. And then we can regroup on Thursday and come together and talk about.

You won. Okay. Never. All right. Also, but what we'll do is you can give me a housewife situation. Okay. It's bullshit wise. Okay.

And then I'll give my, you know, know thing on it. And then we'll see if the jumper verse survives. The jumper verse might not survive this, man. A lot of people mad. They just might split. And they should be mad. This is some shady stuff.

How would I, if I'm part of the jumper verse, how would I ever trust Adam with any information? If it comes to him, you know, I would think he would air it out on a podcast. If I ask him not to, he's going to let it slip through the cracks anyway. Blame it on the editor, fire the editor.

Can't fire the editor. Why not? He made the mistake. Why everybody got to get fired you? Fire. No, but I'm just, okay, stop. You know what I mean? Like, oh, if it's that big of, if you really asked him not to do that.

The editor was on the show, too. The editor said, the editor had an explanation as to why I didn't make it. This is wrong. I want to ask Zani about this report. Actually, you know what? I just want to say one last thing. I want to say it to the people of No Jumper so they hear this. It's important that the people in the Jumper first know this. No Jumper does great interviews, right?

That's why I first started watching No Jumper, right? Because, like, all of these guys are coming up in hip hop and they weren't getting interviewed other places. And so I'm like, hey, this is the white dude that looks like a skinhead. And he interviews all of these crazy kids. I watch the interviews. I'm like, hey, this fucking fuck with him. I mean, Adam, become cool and all that stuff like that.

The jumper versus great. There's something that the employees over at No Jumper have to remember now. This happened at TMZ to a degree. People don't go to No Jumper that I know as much for their interviews anymore. They go for the personalities. The no-jumper verse is now not about, they just did an amazing Fat Trail interview, but the no-jumper verse now is not about,

like, who is coming in there to sit down. It's really about the shenanigans and the crazy shit that's happening amongst the employees. So then that even shows even more so why he let it leak. What I'm saying is that although, I know this from being at TMZ, Although you think that that's an awesome thing because it allows you to build your own brand,

there's also an element of danger to that. And the reason why is because once it becomes about you, right? Once the TMZ show wasn't about the clips that we were showing or anything like that, once it was about you had to make a joke and get out, or you had to be this or you had to be that or you had to be that.

Now there is incentive for the people that are at the higher ups there to make content out of you. Now there is incentive for them to put you in positions or situations that might be stressing to you or that might be fucked up to you because your reactions are what people are coming to see.

So you're saying Adam did do it. I'm not saying that Adam did that. I'm not saying that Adam did that. I don't like that's a, that's like I'm not saying that Adam did that. I wouldn't say that Adam did that. that. But what I'm saying is this is the thing. This is the thing. They got

people at no jumper trying to catch phase with each other. They got all kinds of stuff. This is the thing. And there's something to that. For me, when it became that at TMZ, it changed me. It changed me because I'm like super on edge. I'm like

whatever, whatever. Like who's trying to fuck with me? Or they trying to edit me bad or like whatever, whatever. And then eventually got fucked up. So remember, when somebody's making you content, just be careful, be guarded about what you talk about and be guarded about how you articulate your. So do you feel guilty for watching?

For watching what? No jumper? Yeah. Oh, I'll be watching that shit tomorrow. I'm going to be, oh, no, no, no, no. Man, y'all understand, bro. Y'all don't understand. I spend all day reading Vox, reading,

oh, I want to shout out, ground news. This new app that I have, it's called Ground News. And it tells you the bias of the story that you're reading. It's very... Not box doesn't. No, I'm talking about... It's called Ground News. It's an app, right?

And it aggregates all these news stories, and it lets you know if this story is being covered right, left, or center, and it's just a great app. And I'm not getting paid for this. It's just something that's amazing. I love it. So I'm watching all these stories. And when I'm like just going...

going to sleep. Like when I'm about to watch, I just like to like flush my brain. So I either I'll play mad, no, I catch up on the jumper verse. Okay. Well, that's how what Housewives is for me. Same thing.

And I should have never made Housewives joke because this is. We can get into it. Is, I mean, it's going down right now. Ron Dixon's involved. Oh, that's a fucking crazy story. No, not that story. Oh.

They didn't do that story on Housewives? No, no, no, no. They didn't touch that on Housewives. This is, this is about, is he fake? getting fake married or not, even though the weddings they are getting married, but that's another story.

No, no, no, not the Juan Dixon coaching with the coach. They should not have that on. No, but that's, but like, that's, that's not. All right, we went too long today. Maybe next season. All right, thank you for Steve Ney Smith for joining us today on the show.

No, very serious question. We've asked enough and talked about enough. Faith and caps off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lason's Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Before we leave, I would like to say that my heart goes out to not only

the people in Monterey Park, California, the 10 people that lost their lives and another horrific match shooting also the people in Iowa, Des Moines, Iowa that lost their lives as well. He's safe, guys. I don't even know what to say.

I'm not to say. I'm just so. Bye, guys.