Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Epstein Revelations, Ja Rule vs. G-Unit, and Symone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

Van and Rachel welcome The Ringer’s Logan Murdock to react to Ja Rule’s confrontation with Uncle Murda and Tony Yayo on a flight, before they discuss more revelations from the Epstein files, hip-hop in the Trump era, and an HGTV show’s cancellation for the host's use of the N-word. (0:00) Intro (3:19) Ja Rule vs. G-Unit in 2026 (19:15) Latest Epstein updates (1:02:15) Symone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels join the show (1:39:33) James Talarico vs. Jasmine Crockett (1:50:53) Hip-hop serves only itself? (2:01:36) The N-word and HGTV’s ‘Rehab Addict’ Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Logan Murdock, Symone Sanders Townsend, and Eugene Daniels Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Vote here for the NAACP Image Awards: vote.naacpimageawards.net Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on, is Aiv Van Laketon Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. You got cousin Logan in the house today. It's All-Star. So Logan Murdoch is in the crib. What's up, Logan?

How are you doing, brother? What's going on then? What's happening with you, bro? I'm really scared because last time I was on here, you talked about shaving your balls. And I think that's why, like, um, Logan. I think that's why I'm back here.

I wouldn't even thinking about that. Exactly. Because I need to be far away from that. But I'm happy to see. Logan is in, but I'm out here. Logan is in the designated third co-host seat right there. We got the shot back there. But the reality is I wasn't even thinking about that.

Now I'm thinking about it. Now, see, Logan, see, you're going to, you know how it's, it's in the back of his mind. It will now something sexual will. It's not sexual. What's sexual about shaving your balls, though? It's not sexual. It's not sexual, but it is. Okay, bro.

You do. Personal. I don't know. I don't know what the word is. This is my thing. And once again, we're not going to spend a whole lot of time on this. How about not in. I apologize.

I didn't mean to do this. He brought it up. Okay, Logan, we're so happy you're here. But here's the thing though. Happy you're back. Why? Logan, why are you back in town? Why do we hold it all in?

Why can't we just talk about shaving? Me and Rachel, excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Me and Rachel are having a conversation right now? No, what you're doing right now is your panda. But she asked me a question, you cut us off. You asked me about you brought up shaving ball.

And I wanted to get into the conversation, but now there's a panda. Well, the people want to know. Logan's here. Cousin, Logan. want to know what's what's in town for what's in town for logan what's in town for logan i'm here to you know i'm here to see the sites no i'm actually here you know for all-star weekend um quick plug i am going to be judging the g-league dunk contest the conditions center so you know tap in me and howard mother bucking back on the real ones that um that we do twice a week um that's enough

promo i think but that's why i'm here just to you know do some work and be here in los angeles uh and see uh glee leac contest is going to be better who i think is from uh you from dallas right I have for Dallas. Okay. I didn't know that. That's okay. I didn't know you're from the Bay. Yeah.

Rachel. Off mic. The degree to which Rachel doesn't know her coworkers is stunning. I know Logan. I don't know all the details. She actually went. So Logan, whose very existence is steeped in Bay. Y'all think I'm Baton Rouge McKinley-Had.

Logan is Bay to the Bay to the Bay. Rachel goes, she's talking to Logan about the Super Bowl. She goes, how familiar are you? with the bay. That's legitimately saying. I said San Francisco, to be fair. No, you said at the bay. You said at the bay. She said, quote, I don't know how familiar you are with the bay, but I was. It's nuts. It's nuts. It's a nuts. Okay, let's get into the show. Oh, we have Simone Sanders and Eugene Daniels second on the show today. New podcast, Clock it. Um,

it's presented by MS now. It's on all platforms and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk to them about some things later on. These are two individuals who are very adept at talking about and really distilling information about politics and politicians

because they work with so many. In an entertaining way. In an entertaining way. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to

what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable.

It inspires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at vanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. But we're going to do quick hitters. First up, Donnie, where you at? Let's talk about pillow fights. Let's talk about pillow fights and Jarl Rule versus G unit is back in the culture. It was reignited on a delta flight when Jarl rule was confronted by Tony A.O and Uncle Merta. It could have been the other way around. But it laid. led to Jaru allegedly throwing a pillow at Yale before being rebooked off the flight. I'll play a little bit of their back and forth and then get y'all's reaction.

Suck-ass Jai Roo on the plane. Oh, man. Oh, I think we're going to go. Let's get hard complications. Do it again. Oh my gosh, we got to bring that sound into the podcast. Hey, hey, that to me shows you guys, that y'all don't give a fuck about me. Yeah, y'all don't give me, y'all triple, I can't hear the triple boom.

I can't hear the triple boom. I can't hear the triple boom. I'm so glad the Bachelor doesn't have a theme song. I can't hear the triple boom, bro. Don't, I can't hear the triple boom. I'm going to freak the fuck out, okay? Donnie, y'all did, y'all be doing shit like this on purpose. I know, by the way, I know that I'm the underdog on this part.

Everybody else is in the back. I'm going to be like a lie. When I heard the pre-toops, I was like, play the triple. Don't play the triple boom. Don't play the triple boom. By the fact, I'll let you know something. There's a lot of people out there, right?

Just to let y'all know this. When I see, like, my friend. and stuff like that I know and they do like a spot on TMZ I'm mute them for a while So it's wrong for them to do that? It's not wrong I don't want to see it

And so if I see you moot moot I mean mute TMZ I did I can't I can't I can't mute the whole thing Because like you know sometimes Dom will pop up on there Sometimes other people will pop up on there

I see for a little while I'll meet you for a little bit I have an interview next week on TMZ Oh that's nice I got a question You gonna mute me? No you're I don't. I don't have a problem.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I don't. I got a question for the panel real quick. And you guys are obviously like Oodles more famous than I am. So how do you guys deal with like being online while muting shit about you guys online? I don't mute anything. I don't mute anything.

I don't mute anything about me. No, I don't mute anything about me. I like to stay kind of tapped into what people are saying about me. Yeah, you like. I don't read comments, but I just like want to be in the know. I want to be a part of community. where things are being discussed. So like when I used to go on the Reddit,

I thought that that was going to be, there was going to be a part of the community. We talk, we do all kinds of things like that. And it wasn't. Well, it's their Reddit. And so they, actually, I feel like being on a Reddit where about your podcast is, now think about it, it's lame as fuck.

Because that's them, that's, they should be able to express themselves and talk about you, what they like, what they don't like, all of that stuff. I did go on the big picture Reddit. Oh. Like last, this week. Earlier this week.

Was that a good thing or bad thing? No, they fucking hate me. Really? Yeah, they hate me. Are you on the big picture that often? I'm not, they like when I'm on the show. Okay. But my entire one battle after another, the whole thing, that's the movie, man.

That's the one battle after another is like the film bros, that's day Kobe. Did you see it, Logan? What? One battle after another? No. Was that the, is like the new title of the J-Rul, Tony A. No, no, no, no. Is that what it's called?

But that is basically what it's called? could be. Okay. So that's that. Because in that case, yes, I watched that. That's day, that's day, that's day, that's day Kobe. So you can't really say so. They got mad.

That was talking about Kobe. I went on there and said, what's up? The film bros. Oh, film bro. Oh, film bro. Okay. I love it. Whatever.

Back to this. Rachel, do you know where this comes from? No. Hold on. Wait a second. This is very interesting to me. Rachel, one billion dollars on the line. One billion dollars on the line.

I want you to your best ability. to talk about why Jaru Tony Yeo and Uncle Murder have been. It's a billion of, if you can explain this, if you can even, if you can give the broad strokes, you get a billion dollars. From who? Don't fight the hypo.

If you, broad strokes, you can get a billion dollars. Well, come on. My guess would be that Tony Yeo and Uncle Murder are murder are attached to 50. We on okay well G unit

G unit yes cooking with grease Rachel okay okay and so we we know that job rule in 50 have beef right like it still exists so just the so I imagine that it started years ago for whatever I don't know why that beef started but I would imagine that that's where it comes from

years later they haven't gotten over it 50 still on jaw, still on him. So if G-Unit or anybody affiliated with these jaw rules on site. Guess what? Rachel Lindsay just made a billion dollars, guys. That's all you got to know. Now, we could get into whose kid got smacked, whose house got shot up.

Damn. Oh, shit, yeah. And we're working with pillows? Hold, hold, wait a minute. That's what happened. It went to a pillow fight. So here's the thing about this. Here's the thing about this.

is some, we're not going to do a whole beef documentary, DVD type of situation, but this is real shit between these crews that goes back a long way. I will say this though. We'll say this. Jai has come out and apologized, or not apologize, but basically apologize for

not to Uncle Murder and to Yale, but for putting himself in that position. He said, I'm a grandfather, somebody that wants to move on and live a positive, healthy life. I should not be allowed. I should not myself in that type of situation, right?

Who threw the pillow? They say that jaw through it. Okay. This is my thing. I get that all of this is really real. And, you know, and there's been real shit that has happened and blood that has been spilled over this. I really am wondering right now, though, despite all of that, man, how to fuck long

can we do shit like this? And when I say we, I'm not putting this. on me. I ain't got shit to do with this but you mean to tell me it's so up right now in this situation that we're going to have these three men who all of them

in hip hop in hip hop I have a lot of respect for it. That type of situation's going down in Delta 1. That's what I was going to say. In first class. Just like just we can't sleep

lay down and then if you want to get busy get busy. I don't know what the fuck is going to Just like, I saw that and I actually felt bad about it. I understand. I just feel bad that you have to hold on to that type of negativity for that long. I get not wanting to fuck with nobody, not wanting to be around nobody. This has been going on for such a long time. I would love to see.

And I think a lot of people would love to see some kind of way to be able to let this shit go, man. I don't know. I don't know. I get it. Logan? First of all, it was just hilarious that it is devolved into a pillow fight on first class. I would be fucking pissed if I'm just trying to chill and, you know, have my flight to New York or wherever. And I'm, you know, I'm just chilling. I'm about to, you know, got my pillow. I'm about to fall back. And I just see three dudes out here just, like, filming each other and throwing pillows and stuff. part of me like as a child

the inner child of me is like this is like crazy because this is like what the manifestation of this beef has become but the other part of it that I that I just think about like in terms of like how this gets resolved I think a real a model for all these parties

is what happened between Gucci and Jeezy right where they can both exist in the world and not necessarily have to go at each other all the time but I think that's just the media market and the media world that we're in right now, right? Where life with social media, life has become like the biggest reality show

no matter what, right? Like as soon as this ends, Tony Ayo is getting on with Vlad TV and then like they're leaking stuff to TMZ about videos and just trying to get ahead of the narrative for people on the internet where this all started is like we all just trying to get to wherever we're trying to get to and it's just evolved.

And there was just so many places that I could take it. but I think that they honestly should just be adults and kind of just, we got beef. It is beef. But like when we see each other, we don't got to necessarily like fight each other. We just like live in the world. I don't fuck with you.

The deal is like, I get that the beef is serious. I understand the beef is serious. Bullets and flown. All kinds of things happen. The beef is serious. I understand that. But don't the healing have to be serious to?

like to me I get it man it's a bunch of people that's gonna listen to this and be like Van don't understand street shit Van don't understand

hey got it y'all got it y'all got the whole thing right y'all don't understand like if if it's a serial killer in my neighborhood I'm gonna call the police right that's I'm not straight like you know

that's I'm not you know and I don't like the cops and I don't but I'm not street but what I'm saying is I get that we take the beef series that we understand it is real shit why people don't like each other. My question is, do we take the healing

serious? Is it serious to heal? Is it serious to get over it? Is it serious to move past it? How serious is that? Can we set aside some seriousness for that part of it? I agree with you. But when you talk about it

and I think of G-unit, I think of 50. And he doesn't let anything go. He doesn't. So I think that that conversation almost has to be directed to clearly the person who is the face of it, who has had the most success from the group, who seems to be, I'm not, well, I don't know about that part, but just seems to be like the leader of it. And he is constantly not letting things go and trolling people, not even to the point of just holding it on internally, but making a public display of it all. So, like, your question is well warranted, but it's like it also needs to be. directed at, because like we don't necessarily have this conversation when we see 50 do something on social media where he's constantly doing stuff. I mean, I'm glad the Diddy documentary came out,

but I'm just saying it was also a part of him just holding on to stuff. But he's constantly doing this. So I think it's a bigger conversation to have within, to have within the community. But also it's with this too, it's like the, the, I didn't even know about the part about leaking stuff to the media and trying to get ahead of the narrative, which is almost also like, nobody's even really talking about G unit like that or job role. And so like for this to be the conversation that we're talking about or you're trying to leak more information and bring more attention to it is wild to me. But just the entire setup of it all, right?

You touched on it when you said Delta 1. You guys aren't in the streets. It's not that life. You are writing in, it's better than first class. In Delta 1, in live flats with people where seats are. are several thousand dollars. And you're bringing in like, so it's like,

what are we fighting about? Like you, you've elevated to a certain level. You are clearly doing better for yourselves than when you started in all of this. And you're going to argue in Delta One and fight with pillows. That's an L right there.

And the second L is the fight was so intense. John Ruhl had to rebook his flight. Well, I mean, that's a whole other thing. You missed the flight. So this is why I'll say to all of that. Number one, once again, we talked about it earlier before we got on here. If I see something from TMZ, I'm muted.

Right? Like, if I see something from it, why will I do that? The reason why is this. When I got fired from TMZ, TMZ went out of their way to make me look like a rampaging white boy choking thug. Need it. It was like me, whatever happened, all of that stuff, it is what it is. but everybody knows everybody knows that that's not me

and I felt a significant amount of betrayal from a place where everyone knows me and they still went that route that is what it is okay like the healing doesn't even have to come from not liking somebody the healing doesn't even have to come

sometimes the healing is knowing how to comport yourself in a way that you don't allow yourself to get triggered. Like healing is, hey, that go rule, they're going to murder, they go, yeah, yo, we on the plane, fuck it. Even if you take

a video and post a fucking video. But all of that, that tells me that them feelings are still live, right? And look, it's all kinds of shit behind it. It's shit where people didn't allegedly been hit with bullets and there's

all kinds of shit behind it. I get it. I understand it. But that's some point man you can't live in 2000 2001 2003 no more i heard a question you just can't do it i have a question um how did what do we think about just like there's also a version of this where you know when you are in the public eye like you want to continue to be in the public eye especially if being in the public eye is your your business right and you in the name of the business is keeping the spectacle going for your brand right how much of you think of that is playing a part in this, right? Because as soon as this happens, like Tony Ayo's,

like I said, going to Vlad TV to talk about it. His whole brand over the last two years has been very entertaining, but like it's let's talk about the good old days. Let's talk about eating duck in Morocco. My question is, how much do you think this is also a version of that where we're just trying to just keep the spectacle going because that's how we get more attention for ourselves. That's how we, you know, 50 is the head of this. And he has been honest in saying that, you know, sometimes he uses beef just to, you know, market himself and like even beef with others, whether it's real or not to market himself. How much do you think that played a part in keeping just the spectacle going so everybody gets

more attention for whatever their businesses? How much you think that played a part into this as well? definitely a part of it. That's like a, that's a huge part of it. I will say that even though you can acknowledge that that's a part of it, and also it knows that it's really not an explanation for how fucked up that looked. Like, man, there are a lot of, I know people die out on it. I know this is rich coming from me with my, with my history and my past, but man, dog, we don't have time for 50 Roberta and Yale on in first class right now.

We don't, man. and like when you see Jarlu come out and say yo that's not how I want to be I respect that like I respect that I also I honestly I honestly hope that even if

this animus lasts forever that they can get in a situation where they're not so triggered by everything that's going on yeah that hope you hope so hopeful um Casey Wasserman are you aware of this I've I've been looking at it.

Donnie, say something about Casey Wasserman, who, to get into the story, Donnie. In that huge three million something page dump of Epstein files, they show that Casey Wasserman, who is a powerful entertainment and sports executive and head of the Wasserman talent agency, exchanged emails with Epstein Associate Gillane Maxwell years before her conviction. In response to this revelation, artists, including. Chaparone and Orville Peck have publicly cut ties with Wasserman's agency or called for his resignation saying that they can't be represented by a company led by someone linked to those documents. Wasserman has not, though, been accused of any crimes.

So it looked like he was feigning for some Galang. Yeah, it was, but it doesn't matter. People are still upset. It doesn't matter? Yeah, hell no. Overpeg. I'm looking at Orville Peck. I don't think I knew Overpeg.

He got a mask on. He's a lone ranger? No, he's No, he's not He looked like the long range of to me This dago oval pick right He got the white hat He got the mask on

He's wildly known for often wearing a mask And not showing his face publicly Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah He left He said he can't fuck with a chaperone Left a lot of people are leaving They're not fucking Wasserman like that

Yeah, they're not But I think the bigger story is Like Casey Wasserman And his ties to the Olympics and people are upset, you know, obviously anybody's name who's mentioned, you know, it causes people to raise an eyebrow. Then when you dig into, how is your name mentioned? And no, in the files that we have so far, his name isn't mentioned directly to Jeffrey Epstein,

but it is to Gisland Maxwell, who we know is serving time in prison for sex trafficking. That is not the subject matter of their emails. It's the two of them together, which he was married at the time. but it's still this link, right? It makes people, you know, maybe assume facts that aren't there or at least causes people to say, hmm, well, what are we not saying? You know, it opens the door for, well, what wasn't in the email? How long did you guys talk?

What kind of, you obviously talked in other ways outside of email, just you can tell that from the way of the conversation. So how long did this relationship last? What, you know, like who else was involved? what things were you doing when you were hanging out with her? We know what she's about, but it just leaves the door open. And I think that that's the problem that people have. I think the problem also people have is that there are L.A. Los Angeles politicians

who are calling for him to resign from the L.A. 28 board in regards to the Olympics. And he is not. You know, he said he had deeply regrets the communications he had with Gislay and Maxwell, but he has not offered to step down. He has not said anything in regards to his company, which leaves the employees and the company itself having to deal with this backlash and losing clients and losing brands and business and all of that. And so I think people are like, we want to see more from you. And people are saying they want, they're kind of holding the LA 28 board to a certain standard in saying there are all these prominent people in business and in sports and entertainment that are a part of this. who are backing Casey Wasserman

because they're not calling for him to be removed from the board, which, you know, I see, I don't know. I don't know how I felt about that one. So one of the emails, this is in 2003, says Casey, I will be coming back to New York. Let me, let Logan read it.

Logan, you want to read this? Read this email. Well, we don't have an email for him. Oh, okay, okay, okay. So it's like Casey, I'll be coming back to New York tomorrow late afternoon. I shall be wearing a tight leather flying suit. P.S. whilst in New York without me, what would you like to do? What time would you land?

I think of you all the time. So what do I have to do to see you in a tight leather outfit? I'm in New York tonight. You're not. What am I to do? X or X-O. Okay. So look. Who wrote that? Gisling? Galane wrote that. Galang. I'll listen. So a lot of people are saying that is evidence that Wasserman was actually looking not just for a little fun time with Galane Maxwell, but a little fun time maybe with some of the people. that Galane Maxwell could provide to him because it seems clear there that he said, hey,

you're not going to be here. I'm going to be there, you're not going to be there. What am I to do? Like what's going to happen? And then she kind of answers back in kind, the people are thinking maybe in some sort of way he wasn't just seeing Galane Maxwell but then also was taking advantage

of the services that she could provide. You guys should know that he runs the Wasserman agency. We've talked about this before, but he is a legacy at this. He founded Wasserman, but like... His grandfather, Lou Wasserman, is a gigantic name in talent management. And this is one of the Los Angeles elites.

The story's interesting for me for two reasons. Number one, we've talked about the Epstein class and the blowback that will come for being a part of this. There's a hesitancy there that I'm seeing from a lot of different people. Peter Attia, who is a wellness doctor, who also has had close ties to Epstein, was supposed to have a new job,

a new role with CBS. And while that role and that job after these files seems to be in some sort of peril, you also see Barry Weiss and the people over at CBS a little hesitant to make that move. consequences as it relates to being involved near wrapped up into this whole thing they're slower to come than people might think that they are like to your point there haven't been any new cases brought right at least as of yet there's a whole bunch of talk about what

these unredacted files are going to mean and even socially we've identified a lot of people that were in this world but nothing's happened yet until now you're seeing major, major, some smaller things have happened, but you're seeing major talent, major stars, move away from Wasserman and his groups, and I don't want to be involved with them anymore. And you're seeing the town, at least partly, put the LA 28 Olympic committee in traction

about their connection to him. I think once a move like this is taken and somebody actually pays that the floodgates could be open for accountability for a lot more people that had connections to Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell. And I think that's the hesitation that you're saying. You know, it's like once one person goes down

or once someone folds in regards to holding someone accountable, then it's like fair game for anyone else, which is a crazy thing to say. Because at the end of the day, you know, I don't know what's going to have. happen with, I mean, Wasserman's name is, it's on the agency, you know, that you might lose clients or whatever, but I don't think it's going to completely take away from what they're doing over there or take the business away. But he was so involved with the bid for to get the

2028 games and led a successful campaign and is so behind, you know, as the chairman, overseeing, the organizing, the planning, the financing, like, of the 28. Olympic and Paralympic Games, that it's almost, I'm sure the board is like, how can we remove him when he let this campaign to get it here? He's been overseeing everything. They're looking at the business of it all and are hesitant to the point that you're making about removing someone or him with that kind of power, which goes back to how the people that are being named are all in this certain class of people. So Steve Tisch right now, the co-owner of the Giants under a tremendous

amount of pressure, particularly because it seems as if they're not just people like Wasserman who had close ties were involved with Epstein and Galane Maxwell, but then there are also people who have lied about the degree to which they were close to them. Steve Tisch seems to have clearly

lied about what he called a sort of brief relationship that he had with Jeffrey Epstein. It looks as if the new drop shows Steve Tish sort of giving Jeffrey Epstein advice right and you have him

and then you have another gigantic liar Howard Lucknick Howard Lucknick is a fucking liar guys okay Howard Lucknick is on record this is a member of Trump's cabinet is on record saying that he didn't want to have anything to do with

Jeffrey Epstein after a certain time and we know now from emails that that is a lie so the question is is he lying to protect his reputation because we know all of this. I'm sure that that's a part of it. Or is there a deeper and more fundamental relationship between Lutnik and Epstein, between Tish and Epstein that these people don't want to talk about?

Is the nature of the relationship what they don't want to talk about? And not just specifically that there was a relationship. Because remember, after the late 2000s, Jeffrey Epstein, sweetheart deal given by Alex Acosta. There's not a lot of reason for anyone to have had association with him unless they didn't give a fuck about it. I will say this.

There's a double-edged sword and podcasting around this too. For some reason, Joe Rogan is platforming guests, maybe because he's had so many people from the Epsine class on his podcast. Joe Rogan is platforming guests who are doing a soft shoe here, they're sort of explaining why the Epstein situation is different than people might have said that it was. They're doing a whole deal here.

It's like a really interesting conversation that he just had on this part with his guy is talking about how girls sweetened deals and some of the even the underage girls. That's a thing that exists in other cultures and you got to consider that. That happened on Joe Logan's show. I will say this though. if you read the new files, there seemed to have been in 2016 or 2017 a direct effort

from Epstein and the people around him to get to Joe Rogan. Like we want to have dinner with Joe Rogan, we want to hang out with Joe Rogan, we want to do all of this stuff. It looks as if, it looks as if, and I just have to bring this up,

that Rogan did research on Jeffrey Epstein and said no. there was another comic who did go to one dinner and then after the dinner went hey man this was cool but I can't fucking be around you there are people to say and for whatever bizarre reason

that Rogan is I don't know if he's working on behalf of the president or I don't know if he's working on behalf of Elon Musk or whomever that might be involved in that whatever reason that they're doing the deal on the podcast it seems like it's it's I don't have any ambiguity about what's going on there. It seems like they're trying to soften the blow for

this group of people. But there are people, and he seems to have been one of them, that were offered, uh, entree into this world and said no. Yeah. So that just makes everybody else look worse. Yeah. That, that just makes everybody else look. They seem, there are some people that went, nah,

not, not for me. Yeah. I mean, you're right. When you talk about, are you lying because of the reputation, or are you lying because there's something to cover up. I think that when you bring up a Joe Rogan or you bring up even a Katie Couric who went to dinner and talked about, and I think she publicly talked about this before,

but like it's in the files, how weird it was. And it was like, I don't want any, I don't want to be a part of it all. It's like you keep hearing these stories that people that were, that maybe did go to a lunch, a dinner, or maybe went to a residence where he was involved. Talk about how strange in our country.

creepy it was that they removed themselves. It seems to be a consistent thing. And then there are the people who didn't remove themselves, who continued whatever type of relationship. And it goes back to what I'm saying about Casey. It obviously the reputation thing makes sense. But the second part of it, it leaves the room for open interpretation because you just don't know. And you're asking yourself why. When you felt it was off, you could have detached and you didn't. Did you stay because it was Did you stay? It was because connection. Did you stay because, you know, you felt like you were being, I don't know, threatened

in a certain way? Or is it because you just wanted to be participating in the things that you were saying? The thing is we don't know. Well, I think there's a couple of things here. Number one, first of all, I think I know why a lot of these people were saying. If you look at the guys that are wrapped up in a lot of this stuff, you look at a certain caliber of person, sure. but you're also looking at a person

that Epstein could dangle this sort of boundaryless hedonism and abuse to. People that liked the idea of being with younger women, like when you hear some of these emails, these people are like my God, I can be my true self.

This is all the eyes wide shut wear mask fucking lizard people that like to drink the blood of the young. This is all of it. This is any movie you've ever watched where somebody walks into a room with people and then they walk into another room and then all of a sudden

these people become these ravenous beasts where there's no sense of morality and y'all know I'm not trying to moralize but there's no sense of even safety or who they just can become completely different people it seemed like Jeffrey Epstein was an entry into that world

for a lot of people and they became addicted to it. He was a drug dealer and that drug dealer was a certain hedonistic abusive reverse freedom that these gentlemen did not feel like they had the opportunity to express anywhere else. It also taps into when you talk about the addiction, when people reach a certain level and they've made so much money and they have so much power and they're so connected and there's almost like

they get bored. Like what else can you do? What else can I connect to? What else can I tap into that other people can't do but I can do because I'm in a certain group or I have a certain amount of money or I know a certain person. It becomes addicted to, well, what's next? What else can I do? That's what it seems like this is a part of it as well, which is disgusting. So let me ask you this. And, you know, once again, I firmly believe, as Logan does, that Jeffrey Epstein was a foreign intelligence asset. It just doesn't make any sense. Like, you just, guys, nothing else makes sense. There's something, like, just do your own research. I hate when I say this, but like, I hate to do your own research. because every time you ask somebody to do your own research,

they come back and tell you that, like, distill water cures cancer or some shit like that. You know what I'm saying? So, like, it's like, but if you look into Jeffrey Epstein, there's really no accounting for why he became so rich. He definitely was a master investor, maybe could have been a master launderer. Somebody positioned Jeffrey Epstein in the place to be who he became. which was someone that had all these types of secrets and had all this access to all of these people

in so many different disciplines. We don't have to go back over that. It seems like you've turned a corner on the Epstein thing. I've changed my tune completely. Yeah, we know that you hadn't really looked into it. No, no, no, it's not that. Yeah, that's what happened. It's not that.

The whole time you were sitting over there, you really hadn't done the work. Okay. Is that what this is turning into? Nah, we knew that as soon as you picked it up, you was going to be with us. That's what we knew. It's not that I'm not with you.

First off, I'm not reading through 11 million, I mean, millions of pages of documents. And I'm not staying up late at night like you, typing people's names into the search bar trying to figure out. Did you put, how much, did you put, did you put your name in? Did you put my name in? I put your dad's name in. Damn.

And, and of course. Because you know, if you did, if you did, because, you know, you used to always make the joke, oh, he was flying on the plane. You used to always make that joke. Just because he's friends with Bill Clinton. He's not Bill Clinton. Clinton nominated him as he does many a district judges on the federal level.

I'm fucking with you. But I'm not used typing in into the search bar trying to figure things out. However, I think, but, but, but here's the thing. It's not. It's my job. It's your job to start their co-workers. What you do with me?

To look up their parents. It's a look up. No, no, no, no. I didn't really look up Rachel. I don't believe Rachel. No, just for, like, do you put your name in, didn't you? The only, no, I never put my name in. name, man. I knew I wouldn't run it. The only way Rachel

would have gone to the Epstein party is if it was sponsored by Fanatics. And you know what? And guess what? And guess what? And guess what? You know who was party I didn't go to for Super Bowl? Who? Fanatics. See? I actually wasn't at the Fanatics party. So if it was

sponsored by Raising Keynes, you would have been? It wouldn't be. It wouldn't be. It wouldn't be. It wouldn't be. So I'm not even going to entertain that. But what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, like, yeah, I'm into it. It's not that I'm not, I'm not obsessive over it, right? Like you said, like, there's nothing. If something drops, you're stopping everything to do it.

For me, I guess I obviously think it's necessary. As I talked to, we talked to with Rokana when he was here, that somebody has to keep that pressure and somebody has to keep that foot to neck. I agree with that. I think my frustration comes in. There's clearly something that's going down here. There's clearly something that you're keeping from us. But when you have the president who's, they're saying, whose name is mentioned,

over 38,000 times and you have an administration that we see continues to protect him and make excuses for him and they continue to deflect for him it became frustrating for me of I want the people who are in the fight

to keep fighting but for me I was just like I'm paying attention to it but I'm focusing on other issues that I feel like are just as important you know so that was my thing until I watched the Bondi hearing

yeah see hell yeah and I was a little mad at myself because I'm sure I come off as a little flippant, which I want to be very clear. I'm obviously very concerned about the victims and upset that their information has been put out there. And they seem to be, they are the ones who suffered and who were impacted and who are harmed. Yet they're the ones not being protected in all of this. That's very frustrating to me.

But I feel like I'm flipping as in like, here we go, some more stuff. Because I'm like, we're never going to get to the meat of it. We're never going to get where we want to. But then I saw the Bondi hearing. and I was not shocked because we saw her do this with the Senate, but I think I was just, it was how rude she was, how condescending she was, how childish that she was clearly lying and just very unlikable. And there was such a clear deflection of every question that was asked of her

that I thought, okay, I think, how could you watch this and not be like, Who are you protecting and what are you protecting? The purpose of the Department of Justice is to uphold the rule of law to keep our country safe and protect civil rights. The role of the attorney general who acts as the chief legal officer and top law enforcement official who is representing the public interest in legal matters and who the key purpose is advising the executive branch and prosecuting crimes and enforcing civil rights. How can that be the purpose of this department that Pam Bondi is in charge of? How can that be her role? And there was nothing that showed in that hearing that she was there to protect the public interest or uphold the rule of law to keep the country safe, which she said in her opening statements.

She said that she is about protecting America. She gave all these examples about how crime is down and how her goal is to protect America. But you're sitting in front of people who were harmed. who were violated and you can talk about protecting America, but you can't talk to talk about protecting Americans like the sexual assault survivors who were sitting right behind you and you couldn't even turn around and apologize or face them directly. It was the most pick-me behavior that I have seen in a long time on full display. And she is a living example of why the patriarchy can continue to exist because it's a very much.

It is helped and up and big up by women like Pam Bondi. It was so disgusting the way that she was acting, clearly trying to seek the approval of men, but particularly one man, Donald Trump. And as I, I don't even have to list all the things out. I mean, we can talk about them as we continue to have this conversation, but all the things that came out during the hearing of whether it was you're not giving all the documents and asking why. who are these co-conspirators and why aren't they being investigated? Are they being investigated?

Okay, well, where are you in this investigation? Just a laundry list of things that were coming out or lies that were told by Cash Patel that since more documents have come out have proven not to be true. And all you did was turn pages in your burn book and point out to each politician that you were talking about about what was happening in their district or bringing up the Dow Jones. or whatever it may be, and it was clear that she was about prioritizing the stock market over sexual assault, because that's what she was there for, about the Epstein files. She was clearly about prioritizing personal attacks over facts, and I just feel like this hearing revealed so much, and if your goal was to have this platform where you were going to stand toe to toe with Democrats and call them out on quote unquote their hypocrisy or things that you feel like they're not doing right and are not for the benefit of this.

this country, I think you felt tremendously because all it revealed to somebody like me who might have felt like, oh, there's too much, there's so much information or this is a Trump administration who's just protecting him. It enraged me. I thought it was embarrassing that as somebody who took an oath and who practiced law and who used to revere these positions within our government. It was embarrassing for me to watch this woman call herself an attorney general. It was, it was just, it just, it really made me upset to watch. And you have reinvigorated something for me, or maybe not even reinvigorated, just put lit a fire in me that maybe wasn't even there. About now I'm tapped in. And I think it had the opposite effect to a lot of people, maybe who

felt like me, or maybe who didn't want to read all the files and all this stuff was coming out in a way that was a little bit more digestible to them and they're asking the questions, what is going on? And if you are the party of transparency, why are you not being transparent and why can't you answer simple questions if the goal is to protect children,

to protect victims, and to call out this elite system or these corrupt politicians that exist, instead you were hiding at all. And I think that this, personally, this win, this hearing was a win for the Democrats. I tapped in tapped in

well I'll tell you something about the way I look at it I mean it didn't make me mad because you know there's this great part on this J. Electronica song

and it comes from the Willie Walker and the Chalker Factor I think and it says do you marvel at a bird when it flies not me do you do do you marvel at

a fish when it swims. No, because that's what they were made to do. Like, when you see someone that is serving their function, that's what they were made to do. That's what their purpose is. Pam Bondi was not just the, she's not just the Attorney General

of the United States of America. She also was the Attorney General in Florida. from 2011 to 2019, and during her time as Attorney General in Florida, she did not bring state-level charges against Jeffrey Epstein. Pam Bondi is right now, Bondi. She is in the position that she is in purposefully

as number one reward, in my opinion, for not doing that. Yeah. Just as Alice Acosta was elevated to a cabinet-level position for the sweetheart deal that he gave Jeffrey Eiff's. He was rewarded for the way that he handled that. She was rewarded by being able to lead the DOJ because of the fact that she went easy on Jeffrey Epstein. Her purpose, her flying as a bird, her swimming as a fish, is to do what she did in front

of Congress. Yeah. That is what she is there for. Yeah. She is there to do that. All the other shit that we are talking about in terms of how these. people are supposed to function no one in Trump's orbit is there for that. Hexeth isn't there to restore lethality to the United States Armed Forces.

Lutnik, Bessent, all of these people aren't there to figure out what's best for the United States financially. Now, Pampondi isn't there to protect and uphold the rights of victims or to do any that other shit. That's not why they're there. They're there at the whim of the president to destabilize to act upon the president's

goals and wishes and they're being rewarded for the fact that in the past they have exhibited the ability to do that. Pam Bondi is being rewarded for the fact that she took it easy on Jeffrey Epstein for an entire decade

and she's taking it easy on them now because all of this shit is set up in a gigantic reward structure that rewards people for protecting this shit that has been going on. Yeah. That is why singers and actors and people of the like that just go, hey, I don't want to be around this. That's why people empowering themselves with the knowledge of what's going on and asking questions about the luminaries that they respected. and there are going to be guys,

some people that you really love that are going to be involved in this stuff. There's going to be, the best that you can do is ask questions about the depth of their involvement when they knew, what they knew, all of that stuff. That's why it's actually incumbent upon you

to be a part of the responsibility that you want to see from the powerful. And not just in this Jeffrey Epstein thing, period, man. We keep talking about this. We're going to talk about this with Simone and Eugene about how we get past identity or about how we get past

our own bias to just get to what works for people. James Vanderbich died, right? Yeah. Rest and peace James Van der Beek. This has nothing to do with Epstein. James Vanderbich died, right? Now, now there are people talking about their opinions

about James Vanderbik, right? His politics and all that stuff. Oh, I haven't seen any of that. Right, so people are talking about his wife was an anti-vaxxer, James Vanderbig might have been mag or whatever, whatever. you know, rest in peace to

to Mox, to Dawson, to to James Vanderbigh who died of cancer, rest in peace. He passed away. He was an actor that had to have some means, right? I'm not saying he got rich, but he was

probably doing better than the average American. Sure, sure. He has passed away and his family. Yeah. It's crowdfunding. I know. I'm looking it up right now to see how much. Right. His family is crowdfunding from the children. They could be up to a half a million dollars in debt, right?

1.6 million. $1.6 million in debt. No, no, no, raised. Excuse me, raised so far, which is fantastic, right? We care about James Vanderbeek. We care about Dawson. We care about Jonathan Moxon. We care about the kids.

We care about the kids, right? He's the wife, all of it. Do you have any idea right now? I'm not about to start preaching. I'll make this short. Do you have any idea how many people in America right now are stricken with cancer or stricken with other diseases or living with chronic diseases that are going broke

because of the American health care system? And they never went no TV shows for you. They didn't dance or sing. They kids right now are going to have to live with tremendous debt and burden. You don't know who they are. It's lucky if you hear about them. It's luck if anybody gives a fuck about them because we won't address fundamental issues.

Cracks in the American system of how we care for one another and about the priorities that we make important. We talk about a whole bunch of other things except is it fucking right for somebody to die because they get sick? And the same way that the powerful insulate themselves from criticism and, investigation about the children that they are abusing. They also insulate themselves from investigation about the systems that they have created and participated in that continue to emmiserate Americans generation after generation after generation. A lot of these fucking parties and stuff like that, that's like the secret parties of all

a lot of them are sponsored by FISA. Like a lot of them have to do with big, Farma and a lot of them have to do with big oil and a lot of them have to do with big whatever the fuck it is. All of that stuff. Criticizing all of this stuff sitting in my corporate chair, in my corporate place, in corporate Los Angeles, I get it. But I'm telling everyone out there that curiosity into the reason why the thing that you

need to change won't change is the only thing possible that can bring power to account. And so for me, when I look at all of this, she's up there doing what she's supposed to do. She didn't already done it, which is why she was rewarded. And, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, sometimes I go too far, you know, talking about, you know, we different, I'm a bleeding heart. I don't really give a, whatever, whatever, I get it, I go too far. I get it, I get it, I go too far. I get it. I get it, you guys feel like I go too far.

Everybody gets mad. Van wants everything to be free, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Tell you what, though, I know one thing. I know that protecting children. should not be controversial. And also, people going broke because they got sick should not be controversial either. So I personally see a lot of through lines in all of these situations. And I'm just wondering right now.

Talk later about it. I'm just wondering right now. Like, it's like Jerry McGuire. You see that one? Yes, I did see Jay McGuire. I know you like that shit. That's a rage-coded movie. Why?

Because a couple of reasons. It's about true love. Okay. Which rage cares about. Football. Football. Okay. Rod Titwell.

You're basically the Rod Titwell of The Bachelorette. Am I? Yeah. You raw Titwell. Okay. Like, you raw Titwell and I'm like, Ari Spears is Rod Titwell's brother. I don't know. I don't know if they ever really showed me the money.

Who, The Bachelor? Yeah. You got showed the money from some people, though. You're doing good. I've been to the crib. I'm doing good because I worked hard on my own. I know. but you are about it,

but you were like a raw tit well. Okay. Okay. So I don't know who would be your Jerry McGuire, Molly? No. Who would be your Jerry McGuire? Well, Jerry helped. Who, everybody should be asking you themselves this question.

Who would be your Jerry McGuire? Logan, who's your Jerry McGuire? Oh, my Jerry. Is there a white man going through a middle life crisis that has really helped you? Is it Connor Nettance? Pop Conner. You know who that is?

you don't I know he's at the ringer yeah he's at the ringer who's yours I don't know I don't think I've won but look it is he's like he knows he don't want to say it but like anyway all I'm saying it's like in that situation

in the Jerry McGuire a situation of it all I just personally am wondering who's coming with me like Jerry said when he got fire who's coming with me

who's coming with me who's coming with me? I think I'm wondering with you. I think, and I think, listen, bottom line watching this hearing, there's a cover up. If you didn't think it before, you had to see it. And yes, you were so right about Bondi and why she got that job and what her purpose was there for. And even if you, let's just say most people might not be familiar with her being the Attorney General in Florida. And even if they are familiar with that, and that's her resume, they may not be familiar with the fact that Epstein was being investigated

while she was there and they failed to have any charges against him in the state of Florida. Like, that all may be true, but most people probably don't know that. If they watch this, if they saw the news on this or this covered, I don't know how you can't watch it and ask yourself these questions of what's really going on and why is this so hard for you. Bottom line at the end of the day, after this hearing, you cannot have watched it, watch snippets of it. It's all over social media, watched it on the news coverage and not thought,

there's a cover-up and there is a smugness and a hypocrisy that is existing within this administration that clearly was on display and it's been on display right but it was so outright and outrageous that I don't know how someone to your point can't come with you can't start asking those questions can't be curiosity it's why I've changed my tune I watched it I wrote to the group chat I said guys I have something I have to confess something I changed my tune and I'm sorry I should have been there from the beginning. I should have been there from the beginning. But now we got to get,

I got to send you videos. I got to get you with Ryan Grim, Dropside news. Shout out to Ryan Graham, Dropside. Somebody referenced that to me the other day. I was like, hmm.

Where are you at on Epstein, Logan? It's travesty. It's gross. Everything in it is gross. It's repulsive. It's all I got. That's all you got? Yeah.

And that's all true. Yeah. How does Epstein overlap with the NBA? If I, If someone would have asked you this, Logan Murdoch, how does Epstein overlap with the NBA? Talk to us. Which NBA players would be most likely to be in Epstein-I?

Rachel, I have a question for you. This is what Pambani was doing in the hearings. Rachel, how do you deal with the awkwardness that, like, Van just throws your way? Like, every, like, whenever there's, like, silent, quiet time, he just says some, like, wild shit to just put you on the spot. How do you deal with it?

Because that's what I'm trying to figure it right now. I was just like checking my phones. I was getting, we got the studio later that we're about to do a podcast on. I'm preparing for that. And then I get asked this question out of nowhere. Like, how do you deal with just the random, just awkward moments that he provides? It's a good question. And honestly, I don't even think about it.

I've been doing this with VAM for five and a half years now at this point, which is crazy to say. And I don't ever really feel awkward. I don't you never feel awkward I'm so used to it now that's like I don't one time I'm not saying it hasn't happened You literally feel awkward last time I was on it We both did

I think we like trauma bonded over Maybe so You know what I mean But I'm just so used to it I'm like That's just van Okay That's just van

But you gotta come more often And you too You too will be like me You know I'm here every time I'm in LA You too And also second question To that question

This is for me and Van This is you know Big bro little bro talk real quick What does it goes through your mind when like there's just an awkward silence? Is it just like I'm just going to make this weird as possible? Or is it like I really want to know your opinion about this? I love, I love inciting people and making them feel awkward. Okay.

Because I feel awkward at all times. Okay. I almost never feel like. Comfortable? Yeah, it's very difficult. And so me making other people feel awkward is bonding and inclusive. What about like, okay, what about like when I send you like random Webby at like nine at night just to bond like that and you don't respond? Like when I just say like, yo, this was the shit.

Remember like what? Like what normal bros do? Right. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like when I just send you some like an article and I get no response. But like, let me, can I just go to one of our text messages really quickly? You can. He doesn't respond. Yeah, you don't, you're not a good textor.

No, no, no, no. He's a great texter. The Webby situation, when I hear the records, it takes me back to Ban Rouge. What happens is I go listen to the record. I don't know what I was thinking. Wait, what did you send about Webby? This is something that like, okay, this is a perfect example, right? Because I'm a fan of the show.

I watch this all the time. I saw the Joy Taylor interview, and I was like, this is really great work from both of you guys. So I was really happy about this. This was like July 25th. And I text Van. I said, great job on the Joy interview. He responds back, I've killed before. Yeah.

And I'm just like, yo, bro, like, you can't just say thank you? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. So let me, let me help.

Let me make you feel better. When I didn't really know Van as well, and we were supposed to start, we were supposed to start this podcast in March 2020. Sure. Obviously COVID hit. And it was pushed back and we didn't end up starting until May 2020. I don't know Van that well. Yeah.

So I'm trying to like get to know Van and send text messages. And I text Van and I can't remember. I might have said like, hey, this is Rachel or, you know, like, hey, just seeing how you're doing. And he was like, who is this? I don't think I said it's Rachel. I just assumed he had my number. And he was like, who is this? And I'm like, it's Rachel.

And he was like, and I'm paraphrasing this. And you might remember. But he was like, no, who the fuck is this? Like I got killers with me or something like that. Fuck, bro. And I don't know him that well. I know. So I'm like, so it was awkward, but I was, I was a little scared.

But I was confused. And I was like, is he playing? I don't know his sense of humor like that. And then he was like, no, I'm serious. Like on this, on that, on that, I'll have people come up. He's like, you start naming all this stuff. And he was like, you don't understand what I do. And I was like, to be fair, this is Rachel.

He is from an open carry state. I mean, as you are too. As I am too. But it just, so to your point, it's like, Like, you got, like, Jade knows. It's like Bernard is learning. You say something like, hey, new Epstein files dropped or something. A van will be like, balls.

It's funny. I'm sorry. Like, the shit is funny. Yeah, he'll be like, I have a wedgy. Farts. Like, it's just, and you just, yeah. I'm sorry, it's funny. It means he likes you.

I know he does. I'm just like, yo, man. Can we just have a conventional conversation? It's funny. for only to one. And I'd just be trying to bond with my dog. And, you know, like, you know. That is bonding.

We bonded. I wonder how you do if somebody does it back to you. Like, you should reciprocate that. Oh, there's one person who does. Who? Adam Friedland. Really? Oh, wait, is that.

You told us about this last right? Yeah. Yeah. Adam Friedland is the one person. That makes sense. Adam, like, when I'm, when I'm, when I'm texting with Adam, Adam, like, Adam is, I aspire to be. the comic off-puttingness that Adam can manifest.

First of all, he's a lovely guy. He was great. He was great. The sweet guy. But Adam is the one that will hit you up on some, I can't believe Tupac died for this shit. And then he'll send you a video or some shit like this. He'll say some off-the-wall shit.

He's got a high-level comedic brain. But yeah, you got a chance to meet him at the party. I did. And once he found out that I was on The Bachelor, he just had like a million. Wait, what did he say to me? He goes. we're talking, we're talking.

I'm like, oh, you know, I'm divorced. And then something was said and he was like, did you marry the guy from The Bachelor? And I was like, yeah, he goes, why the fuck did you do that? That's dumb as fuck. That's a paraphrase, but that was the sentiment. And I was like, I mean, what can I say?

What you're not wrong? I was like, I mean, you know, that is actually an appropriate response to me saying that. Yeah, yeah, no, he was, he was great. Van and these, y'all in these Hollywood-ass conversations, man. We have fun. Look, whatever, you know, whatever, man. You know, we're having fun.

We're doing our best. Listen, we have to get to our interview with the co-host of the Clocket Podcast, Simone Sanders, Townsend, and Eugene Daniels the second. That's after you. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming.

You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon.

Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain,

and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia.

Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. All right, guys, guest time, special guests on the show, Simone Sanders-Touns and Eugene Daniels. You already see them on MS now. but now you're going to see them and hear them something new. MS Now presents Clock It. This is a new podcast where Washington Power Players will take on these two Washington Power Players, Power Players in Washington. We're going to take on the latest political news, the catchyest cultural moments,

and how the two converge. It's going to be available everywhere today, February 12th, right now. Congratulations to you guys in a new pod. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. Let's talk a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about it. Like you guys are veterans to being on linear cable news.

What do you hope to explore new and fresh and different on your pops? Well, look, first of all, we love you guys. So great to talk to y'all today. Look, I think what I think people are asking like, okay, we see you on TV. Is it the same as television? We've had lawmakers already reach out and members of Congress. Like, oh, I want to get on the podcast. And I'm like, oh, that ain't this podcast.

This, I think what we're most excited about, frankly, is to bring people into the group chat, Eugene and I already have, you know. Eugene and I are always talking about work, about people at work sometimes, about what's going on out there in the world. And politics and culture, I mean, they are intertwined. It's not a sideshow. Culture is not a side show to what's happening in politics. It's part of the main event.

So we're bringing people into our group chat, right, Eugene? Yeah, I think part of it is, and it came naturally because, like she said, we talk all the time. And what we both believe intrinsically is that these two things relate, culture and politics. And you can't pull them apart. And most importantly, right, we can probably can do this podcast and feel the need to do it during Biden. Because Donald Trump, unlike other presidents, understands that trying to arrest the culture and arresting the culture, having control of the culture, is actually a better way to operate as a president and better. in terms of getting what you want done, right? If people see you, you know, having UFC fights at the White House, you know, so Trump Kennedy Center, if they, you know, you are seeing as cool and

interesting, right, to a certain segment of the population, that what you do politically and policy-wise is more acceptable, right? And so that is, we're going to explore that. We're going to explore the attacks on people that look like us and queer people. And what does it feel like in this country at this moment and have a little bit of fun, but do it in a way that also match of the moment. And we're going to get into some of the news of the day. So on our first episode, we hit some of the headlines. And then we get into a really great conversation with Tony Goldwyn and Miles Frost, which was

actually, you know, it was good. Eugene at one point in the podcast asked Tony Goldwyn. I was kind of like, why are you asking that? He said, you know, you do a lot of projects with black people. What is that about? Black women. And Tony likes a very insightful. Black ladies.

He likes to, he's been, he's been visiting the community for a long time now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go back into the 90s. You see him back there. Tony, Tony like a little bit of, that's what I'm talking about.

But he's on law and order now. So he's a little even now. Well, maybe. You said something interesting, because I know this is about the, you know, how culture and politics intertwining. You said you have politicians that are already asking to come on and you're like, no. so are we gay? No politicians are going to be allowed on the podcast.

We don't want to talk to them. So we want to talk to them on our TV shows. Yes. Yes. We want to talk to people who are in the culture, right? Because we know the politics, right? Like, if you have a member of Congress on, there are very few of them who understand this topic to begin with,

that culture and politics are intertwined. And there's very few of them, if any of them, that could actually have a discussion that feels real. right? And not trying to sell you on anything. And so being able to talk to people who are actually in the culture who are in the zeitgeist in some way, shape, or form, to us is a better way to talk about it. Because we hear politicians all the time talking about, you know, the culture and the way that they think about culture. But what's the opposite of that? So then how will working in traditional media versus working on a podcast, like give you the different tools that you need to influence the conversation?

Well, look, I think that first of all, as you all know, you have to meet people where they are. When I used to be a political strategist, we would always talk about meeting people at the barbershops, the beauty shops and the Bible studies, which was basically shorthand for going to where the people are and taking your message there and trying to earn their vote. I think the media apparatus has to do the same thing. You know, we, you know, Eugene is still going to co-host his show on the weekend. I'm still co-hosting the weeknight. And a lot of times we'll have these amazing conversations on air. And I'm always like, well, did we clip it? What are we clipping?

What are we putting on social? Because there's so many people that only see what is on social. And social is a snippet of the conversation. So this podcast and, you know, frankly, this is the first video. I would say the second iteration of MS Now in this video podcast world. Nicole Wallace has a really amazing podcast where she, our colleague, where she does one-on-one conversations with the quote-unquote best people, you know, play on Donald Trump's best people. But ours is this is the first.

time. We're having a group conversation and we're inviting people to have a group conversation with us about the news, yeah, but also about the cultural zeitgeist. So, yeah, we're going to talk to Tony Goldwyn and Miles Frost who have a play that they're doing together, that Tony is co-directing and Miles is going to, you know, talk to us about, you know, how Chadwick Bowman has inspired him and what these times mean and the assault on the culture. And that's not a conversation, frankly, you can get out of a cable news segment. But we are, and I would argue, you know, Eugene has been interviewing people for a very long time,

you know, a season journalist in these streets. So he can really, you know, between the two of us, we're really going to pull out the kind of conversations, frankly, that we are all really having in our own group chats because it's crazy out there right now. And I think part of it is, you know, what we often hear the two of us from people that watch the show some of our bosses is that like, you know,

you guys boil down politics into a very accessible way. So that is, as you guys know better than we, that is the heart of podcasting, right? People don't come to listen to your podcast to hear a bunch of Harvard SAT words and have to look up the damn thesaurus. That's not interesting, right? That's not how people have normal conversations.

And so that is also a part of it. That's what you ask about the skill set. So that's the skill set we're taking from TV and upping it into the podcast where we want people who maybe they don't watch, linear television. Watch us on YouTube or listen to this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or what have you. We want them to be able to get to and be able to understand the kinds of things that's going

on because at the end of the day, Simone and I talk about this lot on our shows is that arresting the culture is also something that authoritarian leaders do at the very beginning, right? Because they start giving themselves fake a board. They start naming things after themselves. They start, you know, because it is really important when you are trying to, you trying to change the culture in the politics of a country to arrest the culture at the very beginning of it.

And that's something that we're seeing. So we're going to explore that. And I don't think the media landscape is going to be able to survive if they can't meet people where they are. Yeah. Like, to be very clear, I have a younger sister. It's a little bit younger than me. And the girl does not watch cable news.

Hasn't watch cable news for a very long time, actually. Doesn't even have cable at home, but she's on YouTube. And so people like my sister, she's. engaged, she's involved. She doesn't think of herself necessarily, I would say as a political person, but she cares to know what is going on and she seeks out what is going on in her own way. But she's not going to turn on a cable news segment, even though I got a damn show. So there are millions of people

out there like my sister. My siblings watch, okay. Come on. Come on. You got better siblings than I do. I need to send my husband to your what do you all think it says about politicians and the way we're communicating that you guys don't have the faith that they can come on a podcast and be relatable and have an in-depth conversation with you guys. Well, I disagree with Eugene. I think that as someone who used to

advise politicians, I think they can come and have a relatable conversation. I think he's 1,000% right. Really? There's not a lot of them. I think I think he's so right. I think why? Because when we've had politicians on the show, we talk to them, first of all,

just so everybody knows, if you know politicians in real life and then you interview them, the whiplash that you get is oftentimes off-putting even when you fuck with them, even when you like them and you will implore them, hey man, look, we're going to have a conversation, just be the same guy

and I promise you people are going to love it. They cannot do it. And I actually think that you guys are really hidden on something that's super interesting to me. The reason why Trump has been able to position himself, promote himself, brand himself. The reason why people say fake news like his slang, the reason why people, like MAGA is basically a slang word, is because there is something that even though he's

dips into so many different grotesque things, that there's a feeling that people have that he creates culture in this really weird way because they believe that he's authentically who he is. I mean, well, it's not even a feeling. Like he has done it. The reason we even know Trump is because the apprentice, he's been in movies, music, sports for like years. At one point, I believe Trump was the most mentioned name in rap music. And this was before his ascension in his political career. So I think that there is a familiarity with Donald Trump who a lot of people knew him to be previously that colors what people think about him right now.

And I mean, that's a, I mean, I don't agree with the president on, I think. 99.99% of things, but I will say he's a master marketer. And he understands how to market a product himself, even if it's a little raggedy product, like those gold boots or a little janky bible. Well, he understands how to do it. And that is because he doesn't come from the political world. And so I think for us, like, we don't want to talk to the politicians because our podcast is not a venue for you to come on and like. One for office. Right. Yeah. No, like, this is a venue. you for you to come for the guests we are having to come on and unpack some things,

have a conversation that we are actually having. Now, maybe one day there will be a politician that actually, you know, lives in the intersection of that. Truly, I don't, but for now, that's not what this is. The politicians are listening for sure, like they listen to your podcast. And they are taking their cues from this spear and trying to figure out how to break through. But it doesn't feel like it. And that's why I think to piggyback on what Van is saying,

It's so interesting that you don't want them in there because if culture does dictate politics and we've seen that from the right, I mean, they hijack everything. I mean, they say fuck around and find out now, which is, which makes me sick. About ice agents. That's a culture. That's our term. But if culture does dictate politics, I guess, where does, what is maybe the hope with the podcast? Because, you know, you're having these conversations that we're having in the group chat. with each other at the dinner table. So how do you merge the two? If they are listening, and we're continuing to preach this message of,

you need to tap in, you need to meet people where they are, you need to be more relatable. How will your podcast do it? How, or how in general, do we get there? Because there's a disconnect. Yeah. I think part of it is that,

and, Van, your point about, you know, talking to a politician before you hit record and what the person they turn into, you can literally see them like change. Like physically, my brother, speak.

The change is visible on the thing. Sometimes I'll be wanting to tap them on the shoulder and be like, hey, man. Like, now go back to that. Don't start telling me about who raised you in the single mother situation in 1975. I don't want to, we're not trying to hear that.

No, but go ahead. Yeah, but, and so like the, their need to understand that the American people, the world, but the American people, want realness from their politicians.

And they've been saying this for years, right? Like, be authentic. You know, like people like Simone have been telling politicians for years to be authentic. But the authentic of what a politician sees as authentic and how everyone who is on the Internet all the time engaging with human beings understands to be authentic are two different things.

I think one of my issues with politicians is they often, not all of them, but many of them see the environment. American people, and they don't give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to understanding how this thing works, right? It's like they don't understand politics. Like, no, they do, because it's not just like, do they understand it in the civics form, right? Do they read the books? Do they go to history? It is, do they understand human connection? Do they understand back and forth? And, you know, something I say that when I talk to young people who want to be journalists who are young,

I say take psychology classes. Because actually, if you want to be and understand how politicians operate, how folks in the culture operate, how human beings operate, you have to understand how they think. And it's not, I think sometimes in the media we make things very complicated, but we try to put how we want someone to behave onto them and give them the benefit of the doubt that way when it comes to politicians. And that's where we make our mistakes, right? Like I think so many people, you know, when Trump puts out this Obama video, this racist

video last week, right? He puts it out, there's so many, I'm watching so many people that. that I used to work with on the White House beat, just throw out the excuse that the White House first put out, which is not true. It's saying it's the Lion King. That is not from the Lion King. No good.

There's Rafiki. He's a group, he is a baboon. But I think like the, you have to as journalists, as people with power and influence, give, like stop being, stop just taking people's world forward and understand human psychology and understand the why, Why, and that's something I think we'll explore on the podcast, right? Like Trump will do something racist again, and we will talk about it on the podcast.

And we, it's like, yes, this is racist, this is who he is, but why is he doing it? Right. And I think trying to give not politicians the tools, but the American people and the people who listen to the podcast, the tools to operate in their daily lives so they can understand what's happening. Because frankly, you know, politicians will listen. We love everyone who listen to it. But I'm much more interested to hear from everyday people who are not in asking how they think about it.

Because in a form, look, there isn't a, it's crazy out there. There's an assault in our democracy. And the Republican Party apparatus, they have been very, very crafty in taking over various institutions and entities to the point where, like, the Ellison's now on TikTok. Remember when TikTok was fucking up the other day? Yes. Okay. Like, right after they bought it? We talk about what's happening with the Washington Post, who owns some of these local news stations.

Look at what happened to the site formerly on its Twitter. How people get their information and the platforms of which they trust, they are absolutely being influenced by our politics and vice versa. So we also want people to clock that as well. And if you understand that, you can, I think, maybe decipher some things better. And I think the last point I want to make about the politicians is, what we're not addressing, and I think of this conversation that we're having right now, is that there's a generational divide. Because to be very clear, I think there are a number of young politicians who could come on elected officials right now who,

they don't mind, like sitting down in a space and place and being themselves. Because that is how they came up in the political world. Their entire political career has been centered on being themselves. But somebody like, I would argue a former vice president, Kamala Harris, whom I used to work for, you know, there have been many times where I would put somebody in a room with her, somebody would have a meeting with her. And they would come out in the meeting and be like, oh my gosh, she's so great. Like, what? And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, she's funny. Yes, yes, yes, yes, very hilarious.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then someone will see her in an interview or in a debate stage or something else and they'll say, hmm, I just feel like that's not the same person I saw privately. Well, Kamala Harris is a 60-something-year-old black lady. when she came up, the elected officials and the young people were not doing what we're doing now. And so I do think there's a generational thing there. But I think the politicians are clocking it.

That's why Gavin Newsom got his own podcast. Yeah. Well. But he talked to Ben Shapiro. Yeah. But you know what? That is a great point. Because if you grew up in the era where like a picture of Gary Hart

on a boat could completely torpedo an entire political career, you can't operate in that era. Our president had sex with Stormy Daniels. Shout out to Baton Rouge. Baton Rouge still getting it done. Stormy Daniels, that's Baton Rouge native. I don't know if you know that.

I did not know that. None of us did. That's Baton Rouge. Nobody is shouting out. You know, when we say fuck the president, we actually mean it. So, so, and now things are just different. And I would hope that they would loosen up a little bit

and try to meet people where they are. And we all have to push them to do that. I think we all agree. Let me ask you guys a question about something specific. specifically that's happening. The two of you have been around so many political campaigns, so many politicians. And I've covered this and talked about this for so long. What's happening right now in Texas is concerning to me.

What part? The battle royale that exists between James Talleyco and Jasmine Crockett, Jasmine Crockett and James Tallerico. I'll tell you why. Like, a lot of people aren't really. paying attention to this because in the grand scheme of things, this primary is going the way primaries go. Primaries are vicious. They're brutal until you get to a general.

You normally learn everything that you need to learn about a candidate. This is the way it's supposed to go. I will say in the last month, last couple of weeks, this one particularly has metastasized to me because now what we are doing is through the schism that exists there, we're investigating real fissure. that exist in the coalition of the left. And the nut kicking that's going on right now, not just between the two candidates, but between people who have made this worldwide, excuse me, countrywide, a referendum on safety,

on black women, black men, on racism, on all of this stuff. I'm not so sure that that entire situation right there isn't indicative of the real problem with solidarity on the left. And so my question is, from you guys' vantage point, what's your diagnosis of how that race is going? I think part of it is. I think you're right. It's going how primaries are supposed to go.

I think that right when you get to the end, right, people are going to start voting here very soon and early voting. That's when people start getting a little nasty, especially when it's the closer it gets. I think what it really shows, the visuals that I see, other than the obvious racial and the way in which we see white men talking about Jasmine Crockett as a black woman, right? That's a whole conversation in and of itself. But I think what you're seeing is the fight in the Democratic Party is no longer ideological. It is, do you fight and what does that fight look like? And I think James Tilarico and Jasmine Crockett show two varied different, very different ways of how to do that, right? James Tala Rico is doing kind of like an old school.

I want to bring everyone together. I'm opening my heart. I want Republicans to vote for me. And you have Jasmine Crockett, who's up here in D.C., right? So it's also like where they're kind of coming up, who's up here in D.C., fighting with the president every single day, and seems to understand that what the left wants is someone to fight out loud, right? They don't want you to, you know, be friends with Republicans that are raggedy, right? You can be friends with the Republicans that are nice, but the Republicans that are out here saying racist stuff and being sexist and all that, they don't want you to be friends with them. I think that is the biggest fight you're seeing. I think the stuff that's bothering me about it is the misogy noir when it comes to how people are interacting and covering Jasmine Crocket and the way in which they speak about her.

Every time I think that folks in the media or folks who watch and talk about these things have learned their lessons, right? They showed me that they didn't want a damn thing, right? We went through this many times. I thought Vice President Harris very closely. And we just haven't understood how those things operate. And I will also say last thing is like James Tolariko's kind of did he or didn't he call Colin Albright a mediocre black man, right? Did he say he was mediocre campaign or did he call a mediocre black man? I think also shows there is a sometimes a misunderstanding with white liberals on how things are going to be perceived.

Right? That you cannot just run against a person of color the same way you're going to run against them the white guy. Had he called, you know, better or more mediocre, people I think would have been like, okay, whatever. But when you're talking about a black man or a black person, it's taken differently. And I think that's also a lesson that Democrats, are having to learn. This is the first primary that we're going to actually see some, like a real fight happening in the Democratic Party.

And I'm not sure. I think primaries are really important. I think they're healthy. Right? I think like, you know, I think that, you know, I know Hakeem Jeffries and them and Chuck Trudeau want to hit us, but I think everybody should be primary. I think that's like,

you think that's your primary leader, Jeffries? I think anyone should. I think people, I think it keeps you on your peas and cues. Yeah. I think it's not about is Hakeem Jeffries ready for the job. It is that everyone who is in office should always have to be looking over their shoulder at who's coming up next. Are the ideas that I'm presenting to my constituents still touching what they need, right? Am I still in the same vein as my constituents that when I came here 30 years ago, right?

Did what? Am I still doing the same thing? Do they still want me? I think it's healthy. And I think both parties should be doing a lot more on the personal. Well, look, there's so much I can say about this race. First, I will note, I think I am concerned about the, you know, I work for the highest profile black woman politician that was ever elected in this country.

And so I just, I think I, at this point, I have seen it all. Okay. I've been standing there where, you know, literally she was sitting there doing an interview with a mainstream. She is in Vice President Harris sitting there doing an interview with a mainstream outlet. and the seasoned journalists who happened to be a white woman is like, so your mother decided to raise you as black? And I'm like, oh, God, this is how we started? So this is, I'm not surprised.

That being said, that doesn't make it right, but that being said, I do think that because people that know, people that are, you know, very well, you know, read, people who understand that, like, the, who have issues with, like, all of us do, the misogynar that's coming up in this race, that doesn't mean we should be above critiquing the candidates, including Congresswoman Crockett. Like, to be very clear, she's running an unconventional campaign. I, as someone that has done campaigns for a long time, I didn't understand the launch video.

But I also have said for a very long time that I think she can win this primary. But the way in which you win a primary is you go out there, you talk to the voters, you meet them where they are. I don't think there's been enough attention in this race necessarily nationally about what the candidates are actually doing on the ground. Because I would say on the ground, she is doing those things. But the conversation becomes about, well, she's not putting ads on air. Tala Rico has more money. All of these other things at the end of the day, they don't matter to voters. And while this has become a race that people speak about nationally, it is the people of Texas, the Democratic primary voters, frankly, that are going to decide who the candidate is. And then

the people of Texas are going to decide if they want, who, comes out of this Democratic primary or the Republican candidate. Now, I think voters particularly, there is nobody that turns into a pundant quicker than a Democratic voter in a freaking primary. Okay. They become an analyst. All of a sudden, they got numbers. All of a sudden, they're like, well, I don't know, the probability of so-and-so,

so-and-so winning in a general election. But the reality is the person that will win is the person that, you know, that garners the most support. So you should vote for the person that you want to win, not the person that you think has the likeliest chance of be to be to the person. a white man in general election. And I think that was really at the heart of what's going on in this crock

at Tol Rico situation. At the end of the day, people privately, let's just be honest, privately they're all like, well, white people vote for her. I mean, yeah. People are saying and asking. I mean, to me, last thing I'll say about it,

to me, I'm sure that for people who are smarter politically, that's a calculus. I'm sure, like, or people, that's part of it, right? Like, particularly after what we've seen with Donald Trump and MAGA, I think there's a large part, of the centrist democratic movement that just wants to pick the best white guy

and go into that and make sure I'm like not concerned with any of that I'm very, at this point I don't think that I'm concerned with identity at all. I'm concerned with people not going broke because they got cancer with people having what they need.

And so I actually don't want identity to get in the way of investigating candidates and making informed political decisions. And what I will say is that while as black people, we always have to consider how we are viewed when we step into rooms and into positions, we also can't let, to me, politicians do what they do,

which is use every single aspect of themselves to shield them from criticism or investigation into who they are. I think Congresswoman Crockett is brilliant. I would like to know as much about her as I can before I seed more power. I'm not in Texas before we make her more powerful. Doesn't matter whether or not she's black. She's a black lady. All of this stuff.

Hakeem Jeffries, don't like him. I think he should be primary by Donald Duck. I would put Donald Duck in there. But don't like them. I can name a bunch of people, a bunch of black men in these, don't like these guys. Don't like them. Don't think that they represent anything new, fresh. I don't even think they truly represent the will and the polling that I see from their own constituencies.

So what I'm saying is, while I will always protect black people, always protect black people that are going into situations where they're vulnerable, where they're vulnerable. I'm not going to protect power that is using blackness to shield itself or insulate itself from criticism or investigation. Question. And this is a question for everybody. Do you think Jasmine Crockett's doing that? No. That was my question. I don't think Jasmine Crockett's doing that.

What I think is that there are a lot of people that are doing it on her behalf. I think Jasmine Crockett is ready for any fight. I think Jasmine Crockett is ready for any fight. I think she's shown that. We've protected her when they've come at her specifically because she is a black woman. We've seen that and we've talked about it. In this situation right here, when we talk about the launch video and stuff, we got to be able to say, hey.

It wasn't good. We got to be able to say that. That post video was not a video that you launch if you were running for the United States Senate in Texas. That is not a video that says, I want to get your votes. And I'm okay with saying that. But I think other people should be able to say that.

But I do think that some of the reason people get a little caught up is because sometimes the analysis, there was, was it in the Times, an op-ed about how, why Jasmine, Crockett shouldn't is not the candidate for United States Senate and it was just washed over with it with a little too much uh all right now it's enough I feel what you're saying yeah we see that before hey that's a little too much there yeah you do that you all saw the video where there's a there's a black ice agent and the protesters who are white

calling him the N word yeah calling him the N word and a fascist and it's like not hold up now that's hell up girl hey what hold out now we pull back back a bridge too far we don't okay ice is i's out of control but watch your mouth there's a little like you know it's like don't go too far and i think that's what you're hitting on van that within on the left like within the progressives you know i also used to work for bernie sanders and frankly sometimes the most progressive people they sound just like some of the worst conservatives like right-wing conservatives in this country like the the the the the shit is real within the democratic coalition and on the left. But I do think that there are fissures and fractions within the

leftist coalition. But frankly, that's what's going to happen in a big tent. I think the Republicans are learning that very well because they don't let these magas, the Q&Ns. It used to be maybe two factions in the Republican Party. Now it has grown to the level that they can't control it all. But I do think that the conversations happening in Democratic primaries, they need to be, from the voters perspective. Like, we should be able to have this conversation without somebody saying, oh, you hate on Jasmine Crockett. Maybe I'm just putting out the facts on the table.

Yeah. It's interesting, though, because I'm from Texas. And I know you talked about those. I have a Texas tattoo. Yes. Where are you from in Texas? Dallas. Okay.

I went to high school and I'm clean. Oh, okay. Is that legitimate? I need to know. It's right on, I went to school in Austin. So it's right, you drive right through. Right. Okay.

So, look at this. He said he got. I had a tattooed Texas on his side and I was like, I don't need to know. We have a lot of pride. I get it. I love that I'm from Texas. I love that. But, and so then Eugene, you'll understand this.

Like I, and I'm curious as to maybe what you're hearing from people in Texas. I know talking about this conversation, people in Texas who are having the black people who are having the conversation quietly of can Jasmine Crockett win in Texas? But then with everything that's happening, particularly in 2026 in regards to this race, it has been. well now we have to protect Jasmine. I don't like the way that Jasmine's being talked about. Nobody's, the Democrats are not going to win in Texas anyway. So I'm going to vote for Jasmine Crockett because I don't like what's happening with this conversation.

How do you combat that? Are these things that you're going to talk about on your podcast, I guess to bring it back? Because, you know, I struggle with, I see what's happening on social media. I see the conversation. I even get upset by it. And it's like, how do you sit down with that person

or meet that person, you know, back to our conversation? when it comes to the feeling of I need to protect. I don't like what's happening and I can't let these stereotypes perpetuate within, you know, political thinking. But at the same time, you know, you need to be able to discuss what's the race and like the real issues and the ideas going on within it. I think two things. One, I think that one, we are going to have these types of conversations on the podcast.

So that's really important. But two, I think something Simone said a second ago. is really important. I'm going to keep going to get that thread, which is that Democratic primary voters, whether it is in a Senate race, a House race, a presidential race, they spend a lot of time trying to game a fire. And this is what happened with Obama, too, right? Like, the only reason that Obama became the nominee was because he won Iowa and black people said, oh, five people going to vote for this man. We lacked him already, but not. I'm going to vote for. Right. And so you see that I'm hearing a similar conversation in Texas,

including the part about we want to protect her. I think that voters should stop trying to gamify. I think that voters should just be voting for who they want. If they like Jasmine Crockett because she's very ready to fight on all cylinders all the time, then vote for her for that. But because at the end of the day, Donald Trump's president, been president twice. And so like this idea about electability. And the question that largely black people and black women get about electability, like we have to stop thinking about it in the exact same way. There are still more black and brown people continuing to grow in Texas. And if more of them voted, it would be a blue state. Democrats have been chasing Texas for a long time. But every time there's a new Senate race,

you're seeing more people, more young people, especially who tend to be a little bit more on the left-legged side, back in their eligible to vote. But they stay home. So one, politicians have to give people a reason I want to come out in these primary but to give people a reason to come out in these general elections and people should stop trying to gamify it, right? Like don't do it because you're like, okay, if she, if Paxton gets the nominations and so, you know, maybe it's a little easier, but, you know, Cornyn's tougher, so maybe we should do

Tala Rico. Like, just vote for who you care about. Because at the end of the day, that's the only way that we actually change the system. If you want to change the system, you have to actually vote your morals, your values, and stop trying to gamify and guess, especially trying to guess who are Republicans are going to do? Because who the hell knows? Who knows? Who knows?

Who knows? Who knows? They should give Gary Chambers $5 million and send them into Texas to turn black people out. Gary's right. Gary is right. It's a lot of Louisiana people popping up in the conversation. Gary, Gary's right. What Gary said was that he was talking about what we talked about.

We talked to Keith Edwards. Like, concentrate on the voters in the state, in the place that you're not reaching. Get to them and turn them out. Broad coalitions of people who understand that government and systemically things aren't working for them the way that they should and that there are candidates that are empowered to make those changes. And I think you can win. You guys, excited for your pod. excited to I've had you on higher learning.

You guys tell people once again where they can see it, how they can get in touch with y'all visually, audio-wise, all of that stuff. Yes, clock it, drop new episodes, drop every Thursday. First episode is out today. You can catch us literally wherever you get your podcast. You can also go on YouTube, ms.com. Now slash clock it. You can see the podcast there.

And you can find Eugene and I on social media. I'm at Simone D. Sanders. Simone with the Y. Eugene, where are you? Eugene Daniels, two, the number two. Why is there two? Because I'm the second. And also Eugene Daniels was taken when I first went on Twitter the first time.

But it works out. So you're not junior? You're the second? My dad was very clear. He did not want a junior. I think somebody was growing up named junior. And so I had to be the second. Wow.

Fans of junior. I'm a junior. Fans of junior. Simone, I want to hear Housewives on the podcast. I want to hear you talking about Housewives. Okay. Housewives will be on the podcast. One could argue the controversy in Texas

from the stem from social media is a scheme that Todd set up to get people to get threads accounts. I don't know. All right. We out of here, guys. Thank you for joining us. Simone, Cleo says hi.

I love Cleo. Yeah, Cleo told me that she's like, do you know Van? He's from Louisiana. I said, do all y'all Louisiana people know each? Very much. We got a network. I was in Cleo's house the other day.

She got my life together. It's good to see y'all. Good to see y'all, thank you. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping.

Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, Rach, we haven't talked about Crockett and Tala Rico that recently. You have any thoughts as a Texan?

I mean, how is this going? I'm seeing a lot of wounds being brought up. People are like, this is identity politics 101. I made what I said about Gary. Gary had a video where he talked about Keith Edwards coming on our podcast, and I thought the video was very, very useful. Everyone should watch it and follow and listen to Gary Chambers because he talked about the fact that it is lazy to assume that black candidates can't win,

particularly if you're not doing the work to turn out black voters and create the voter that you want to support you, right? Yeah. So it's not just about someone saying, oh, Jasmine Crocky can't win. Jasmine Crocky can't win statewide. This person can't win. Like, what are you doing? Are you taking to Gary Chambers or Stacey Abrams route to awaken those voters that might be either, under incentivized because of different factors or a little apathetic to the whole process.

You asked me if it's one of those two. Well, that's a side thing. I'm asking you, do you see anything particularly alarming with how that race is going down there? I guess it goes towards the question that I was asking Eugene, my fellow Texan, is that I know people were thinking a certain way and I'm not agreeing with it. And we discussed it in our conversation. you guys heard about, you know, saying this person is more likely to win. And I thought that his response was so great of like, why are you playing a game with it and not just voting on the person that you believe in, that you want a back who aligns with certain policies and issues that are that you prioritize and that are important to you.

It should be that at the end of the day, not you trying to say, well, this person has a better chance against this person. That's what it should be. And I felt like I felt like I was seeing a little of that. It has become at least to the black people that I have spoken with. I feel a little bit more based in identity. I feel like people are apathetic and saying a Democrat's not going to win anyway. So I might as well vote for this person because I don't like the way that they're being portrayed and stereotyped in the media. And I think that that's problematic too.

I do think that's going on. I think Simone pointed that out very well. That's absolutely happening. the massaginor, the massaginor, massaginor, massage an noir. There you go. Of it all.

But yeah, I just, I'm seeing people lean more to the identity and to wanting to protect, that I have spoken with, very small group of people, wanting to protect Jasmine Crockett more than sticking to maybe the things that they were

and what motivated them at the beginning of the race. It'll be interesting. I mean, I'm looking at, I was trying to see right now what the polls are saying. I mean, they still have Jasmine, at least this one article from the Austin. American statesman has Jasmine Crockett leading by double digits over Jasmine

Talleyco when it comes to the... James Talley-Roeco. Sorry, what did I say? Jasmine Talley. James Talleyco when it comes to the Democratic primary. Well, this is what I'll say. Once again, we invited James Talarico to come on the podcast and talk about how he, what he said, allegedly said.

I guess he admitted saying it about. He said, he said. Yeah, he pretty much said he said. Like, we invite him to have the conversation. I don't know where they're going to have the conversation. If they don't have the conversation, they're cowards. And let me just say this. I don't believe right now that we should be using identity to shield politicians from

accountability or not even from accountability, but from investigation. I just said that to Simone and Eugene. I don't believe that we should be doing that. However, if throughout a primary, something is said or something happens that is either insensitive, racist, or just unwise even within the sphere of blackness. And we're talking about our relationship and coalition to black liberals, to black, to students, to white liberals, to white leftists. I've talked about this before. We talked about this with Summer Lee. the leftist frame is about class,

and it's about the class fight. Yeah. And it's about true systemic change that could happen to really benefit the American worker. I'm with that. I'm with that, and I am decreasing almost every day in my racial essentialism. It's, it's, I'm broadening it out.

However, it is fucking stupid and I'll say this to all the leftists out there it is fucking stupid it's ridiculous to try to have a conversation with be in solidarity with move with or for black Americans

without considering the existence of black Americans it can't be done yeah but I'm telling you guys right now it can't be done there's just not enough trust The frustrating thing is the conversation is what establishes the trust. Like Platner or Tala Rico having the conversation earnestly with people that are going to investigate,

interrogate the mistakes that they made, that is the thing that has to be done so that that solidarity can exist. and if you look like you don't want to do it, it looks like you don't give a fuck about it. And if you don't give a fuck about it, fuck you. I'm just being for real. If you don't care enough to even enter into the conversation, we could have a conversation and you could be like, all of this is a fucking distraction and it don't matter.

None of that. But I truly feel like, and y'all can say what the fuck y'all want to say, if you say something that is racially insensitive, and you won't even talk about it, you won't even address it in a way that to me is like robust, then you kind of saying fuck me and everything that my ancestors went through because I'm, and it's very difficult for me, even as where I'm at politically right now,

it's difficult for me to get past it. Because the way I look at it is this, and we move on after this, the way I look at it is this. my ancestors, they died so that I could use my voice at a time when using that voice is high leverage. Yeah. They die for that. If I don't use my voice in that time, I'm killing them again. Agreed.

Like, they died twice. So I hope you don't think that after years and years and years of people getting fucked over so that I can say, hey, what did you mean by that? I hope you don't think I'm not going to do it. And I'm not asking you that exists in any framework of guilt, but I'm saying when you open your hand, there got to be something with that. And I don't understand why people don't understand it. Like, I really don't.

It's not about trying to book guests for the podcast. I'm seriously asking the question once again. Tala Rico, in the situation, I am so, I am. So I am like so unanimated by the actual race itself. I wish the best for her always. I wish the best for him. You know what?

No, I don't. I don't. I wish the best for the people. That's who I wish the best for. I don't give a fuck about her individual political career or his individual political career. I care about the people that are subject to. political power in Texas and all throughout. And if she means the best for them, then it's her.

If he means the best for them, then it's him. That is what I care about. But I just don't think that we're going to be able to get to a point of being able to build trust in these coalitions or even understanding if we can't have talks about this. And they don't, they want to politic it. Like they want to politic it. They legitimately, they want to try to politic it.

out of this type of hurt, this type of misunderstanding, this type of victimization, you can't do that. You can only talk about it. And they don't really want to do it. It doesn't seem like that to me. I think it's, well, I do care about, I do care about them as, as politicians because I think that they're both bright, rising young stars within the party. And of course, I care about the people. But what I will say, and I think this is the really interesting thing is, you know,

more than just focusing on this race in particular and yes, turning Texas blue, I think that the way that this particular race is being handled is having people look, have a mirror and look at themselves as to what politically motivates them as voters. And I think, and that's kind of, I guess, what I was touching on with Eugene into how people are turning. And this goes on both, this comes from both sides of it. I guess more so when I say both sides, I mean within the party of the James versus Jasmine. It's what is your motivation for voting for Jasmine? I think those are real questions that you have to ask yourself if it's based on identity. And I think with James, that's the exact same question is what is your motivation for him? Are you into voting for someone who just because they're a white male that you think is more easy for Texans to digest and has a better chance of beating Paxson or Corny and whoever might win that primary? I think that this race is going to make people really ask themselves. why do I vote for this person? Or you should be, at least.

We should be asking ourselves that question. It goes deeper than black versus white, man versus woman. It's as a leftist or a liberal or a Democrat or however you want to say it, what is it that's motivating you? And it shouldn't be the two things that I named when it comes to James and Jasmine. It should be much deeper than that if the goal is to really get the things that we want from a system that is fail. killing us. Right. The things that we want

and the things that we're entitled to. We're going to have a squad conversation again. Okay, look, I want, I want Julie K. Brown on the podcast to tell the story of Epstein.

But we got to talk about the end word is back. Donnie? We just talked about it last week. I did not see him, by the way. Didn't see who? Ted.

He wasn't there? He might have been there, but he wasn't there. He apologized. He said, sorry. On a story, and score story I saw. Yeah, he said.

Then they was put, apparently Ted, loved the N-work because he was on a flat football game, something else. He was getting busy with it. After the apology? No, this before. Okay. Well, we knew he loved it before.

Oh, did you see that Drake followed Trump? Is that true? Hey, somebody looked that up and see if that's true. It looked like Drake followed Trump. Logan was into that. Yeah. What? I didn't even.

I did see that Drake followed Trump. Logan, big Drake fan. No, he's not. You don't like Drake? I don't know the man. Do you like his music? It's not wrong to be a Drake fan. I don't know none of these dudes.

Hey, Jay, okay, let's take a, Bernard, you fuck with Drake? I like his older music. You like his older music. Like, Drake, like, why is it? 9 a.m. in Dallas is one of the most, provided one of the most formidable moments in my life. Yeah, I got, you guys, Kyridge now.

It's binary. Can you, like, to the, everybody, like, on the mic, can, all y'all are younger? Can you be a fan of both Drake and Kendrick? Yes. Okay. Yes. So you can be a fan of both Drake and Kendrick.

Is the Drake following Trump's truth? true or is that like erroneous in some sort of way? He's not following Trump. Well, was he and did he delete it after the backlash? Some people were saying that Drake maybe became a Trump supporter or something like that. And then we was, some people were saying, this is, this is, that could be propaganda that's, that's putting out there. There's nothing wrong with being a Drake fan and a Kendrick fan.

I don't think so. I like both of their music. What's your favorite Drake song? My favorite Drake song? Yeah, both of y'all. Shit. That says a lot of. about you.

Shit, my favorite Drake song is probably like Paris More music. Oh, you were simping then, huh? He was out there doing some real life simping. That's like, but he's rapping on that bitch. He was rapping. Drake used to be rapping, man. He's like, he's rapping on that bitch. Like, Drake, get busy.

Rachel, what's your favorite Drake song? The culture wars. I don't know. I don't know if I have one. Oh, my God. Okay. What's yours? I got some.

Nine a M. Dallas is great. Na and Dallas is good. What else? What was I like? Club Paradise was a really good song. Like a lot of Lucy's I like. Yeah, man.

Drake got me through some real emotional times in the 2010-2011 era like right after high school. That's tough. Got you through some times. Got you through some times. But Doc got me through some times too, right? Like ADHD was like also around that time.

That music there to me is legendary. You know? Like all of that shit is legendary, man. Like all of that shit Like, that shit is legendary, man. That's all I'm to say. Like, ADHD, Section 80. High power.

Like, high power, man, rigormortis, bro. Like, all of them records, like, that shit is legendary. Like, you listen to that music, and as soon as you hear the music, you're like, oh, this nigga different. Bro. I'm just being for real. And, you know, it's funny, is you felt the same, you felt the same way with so far gone. Really, you listen to So Far Gone, Lust for Life, come on.

Drake is rapping. And then he starts singing in the middle of the ball. You're like, what the fuck is this nigga doing? And he's like, oh, I kind of fuck with this a little bit, right? So like, but, you know, I listen to, I listen to Kendrick and all of this stuff. Oh, no, no. Money Trees. It's my favorite Kintrish.

That's, that's, this is legendary. Can we talk about one more song that was really funny? What's all that? Oh, you fuck with that. What? Yeah, you love that record. You don't like successful? I don't, I didn't move me like that.

How old are you? I'm so, never mind. I don't ever ask black women how old is. I was in, like, law school. when that came out. Y'all wasn't really, yeah, y'all wasn't in like the trenches. No, I remember it was like a big deal.

We're gonna have to do a whole podcast about these rappers too. Let's do it. These rappers is, I don't know, man. I don't know where we stand with these rappers. I like the Logan said. I like the Logan said.

Jay is a rapper. Wait, I like that you said, we got to have a conversation about these rappers on this podcast. Logan goes, let's do it. Logan already deemed himself in the seat to have the conversation. Logan 13,

let's do it. Let's do it. We got to have a time. We got a, we got a team. talk. Jay, you know what, Jay? Yeah, Jay, you need to get on this. So Jay says you are a rapper. We have to have a conversation because, listen, I'm not going to get into the whole thing.

But I do have a thought. And I'm crystallizing this thought, trying to get it. The whole time that we thought that it was hip-hop against the white American power structure, we might have been wrong. it might have been hip hop against everyone hip hop might be an entity that actually only serves hip hop and I know that that's difficult

but the more I see all of this stuff man it's getting tough like I like she says he doesn't agree I know and that's why and I could be wrong that's why I'm saying we go but you're going to have to represent rappers we'll have to represent rappers and I know the history I know everything the hip hop is being involved in and all of this stuff.

But God damn, man, it seemed like, especially right now, every time we just need somebody to be like, fuck ice, they go to the Michael Rubin party. Why does it always come back to? I'm just saying, bro. It just seems like we're in a moment to where we really...

Gavin Newsom was there. Gavin Newsom was there. All right, man. A lot of politicians. A lot of politicians were outside. I bet they were, bro. And, you know, shout out to. everybody having a good time. I'm no better than anyone. I swear to God, I'll be watching

poor. But so I'm, I'm not, I'm no better than no one. I promise you, I'm not judging nobody. I'm just saying that like, could we do the whole thing? Could we do like, could we do, I got to get my money and black people need help and fuck ice? Can we do it all together? Can we do the whole thing? You know? It seems like at one time we thought that that was a part of it and now is different. I mean, Cardi B just said F. Ice on her last concert. Love it. She did on her show.

Love it. Love it. And her latest show. But like, I think it's time for us to maybe have a conversation with hip hop. And I think, I'm going to just say this. I think the conversation is kind of already happening right now, right? I think the biggest, the conversation is happening. I think the biggest thing that's happening right now with hip hop is that it's just going

through this transformation right now. It's not necessarily seen on the charts, but hip hop is basically what the community is talking about at a given moment in time, right? And it goes in waves, right? You got the shiny shoot era, and that gives way to another era which births like Kendrick, Drake, and Jay Cole. And then they flourish and they get hella corporate. And then the system breaks down and it comes back up. Like, that's just how it goes. It's a cyclical thing right now.

This is what I mean. We move on to Apology Radio and we end the show. This is what I mean, though. So, and once again, I haven't really thought this out in a real way about what I actually mean. Okay. So when I was growing up as a kid in the 90s, there was an understanding of a couple of things. Number one, it was hard to be a young black male in society. I'm saying young black male because that was the focus of the ire of hip hop at that time.

nobody was coming out and going like we got to stop queen latifah queen latif is one of the greatest rappers ever but no one was coming out and saying what the question was these particularly young men from these places and how their visions and views of where they come from how that was going to influence american youth and whether or not that was going to intercept something into american youth and culturally not there were people who spoke out

right like see delors Tucker, Calvin Buds, all these people like that like the rappers was going against the devil but culturally we culturally we protected them we protected them number one because you know we know the choice matrix that young brothers have in the community

and we know that there's a lot of good brothers out there doing things that are not great and we're not trying to throw them away and we really not we're not trying to throw them away I'm not trying to throw them away now we get that but there might have been something that happened are really well-meaning

and sincere want to protect them might have done the same thing that I'm talking about was done for these politicians. It might have insulated them from actually feeling like they owe anything at all. It might have made it about, well,

I can say anything, do anything, act anyway, be completely among the my own and not be a part of whatever y'all niggas got going on because that is my right and I deserve that and I came from a fucked up place so I deserve all the trappings of my wealth and fame and all of that stuff like that. And so by the time we got to a conversation about trying to have, you know, community with people who we've empowered like that, then it was kind of like you can't do anything to stop

my art. You can't do anything to stop my expression. You can't, now you're just like the white people in the 90s that was telling me what I should and should not say. I'm not ever trying to tell a rapper what they should and should not say. But if we are in community with one another, shouldn't we be able to talk about what we should

and should not do? Is that okay? Because I'm willing to have that conversation about me all the time. People like, give me some tighten up. So shouldn't we be able to have a conversation about in this situation right now why Kanye became a Nazi.

Nikki Minaj became a puppet. Why all of this stuff, you, like, all of these guys are vaguely fucking with this administration that is, like, overtly authoritarian, and you can't tell them nothing. Like, you can't, right, right. Like, you, like, you, you literally

just trying to have a conversation. You can't tell them nothing, because they don't fucking feel like they owe you anything. Like, they owe each other, but not anything to the wider community that gave them these big cultural weapons. I don't really know it just I'm an old nigga, I'm old.

That is what this conversation is actually about I am old. Okay, we should be able to have these conversations and it should be a bigger conversation. We talked about this on the podcast before. It has nothing to do with you being old. It's with you caring. That's really what it comes out to.

I'm old. You know what? Can we get to... Yeah, we got to do it. You know what? You know what? Fuck that shit. Y'all niggas don't listen to that.

Man, fuck that shit. Yeah. What? Like, the fuck what I'm talking about. Oh, ass. Donnie, Donnie, Donnie, Donnie, two hours. Fuck that, Nick. Can we get some?

All right, HGTV's rehab addict has officially been canceled after his host. Nicole Curtis was caught using a racial slur in a brand new way. Let's hear it. Why? That's my last one. Oh, fart nigger. What the fuck is that that I just said? Nick, you got it.

Can you kill that? Fuck my life. Publicity stunt. Rachel, go ahead. She lost her show. So what? Publicity stunt. I don't see how this happened.

What's the, what's the, okay, if it is a publicity stunt, then what, how did she benefit from this? Help me understand. That's a publicity stunt. I don't know what happened. So you don't have a reason as to how this. Where's the video, how does this video get out? I guess it was a behind this, I guess it was, how do other videos get out?

What I'm asking is, did somebody. It's from radar. Radar. Oh, radar got it. Exclusively obtained this footage. Oh, so radar got the footage. Yeah. So somebody taped it.

It was taped and she said, cut it. What did you think? Why did you think it was a publicity sign? Because I do think that there's some currency right now and saying the N-word. Listen, if she wants a whole career path change, fine. If she wants to be like old girl who was on TikTok and was saying the N-word and like repeating on it and then she's on Pierce Morgan and whatever and, you know, all that stuff. That didn't work out so well for her.

It would be hard for me to imagine that this woman who's on HGTV rehab addict, rehab addict, I don't know how many seasons the show's been on. I guess it's a popular show there. It's been on for several seasons, the host of the show, to throw it all away over this, I find that hard to believe. I mean, they canceled it.

As they should in response to her. I've never even heard those two words together before. Interesting. Have you? No, I mean, once again, yeah. That sounds like a term that she says all the time, because I've never heard that before. Like, I guess you still think it's a publicity stunt?

I'm trying to understand the benefit of it. I mean, I honestly, I'm starting to get skeptical about all of this shit. Okay. I think what Ted did was a publicity stunt. How? He's on streaming using the N-word. Doesn't that happen? I'm not a streamer, but don't people do that on the game all the time?

He's not the first, we'll be the last. I understand. What I'm saying is that like, I, so, okay, let me tell you why. And then we get to the apology. It's not. It's not conspiracy theory. But sometimes having worked in this area or arena

people do scandalous shit to like generate headlines. Of course. Now with her, it is very true that she lost her show. Maybe she didn't think that was going to happen. I never heard of her until now. Yeah, we don't watch that kind of

so like it so to me stuff like this, sometimes to me, maybe not this, maybe I could be wrong. Once again, I'm wrong. I'm wrong a lot. Maybe this is not that.

But I don't know, man. Just fart nigger. The way she said it, it didn't. It seemed like some shit that she wanted. I don't know, man. It doesn't seem like she wanted it. Listen, I, this is what I took from this.

Don't know her, never heard of her. Not even going to make the, do the research to really understand who Nicole Curtis is. She can be walking down the street from here on out. I'm never going to know who she is. I don't watch the show rehab addict. I don't agree with you that this is a publicity stunt.

And to use your phrase, and I'll tell you why. Immediately after she said it, she asked them to cut it. She asked them if they could get rid of this footage. That tells me right there and the terminology that she used, fart, nigger. I've never heard those two words together. And her immediate response wasn't, oh my God, I'm so sorry I said that. I can't believe it. I apologize to everybody in the room.

It was, can we kill that? Can we get rid of that? Can we cover it up? So one, she uses this term all the time. She uses this term. She has put those two words together. It is a part of her vocabulary. It is a part of her being of who she is.

Two, her immediate thought was, how do I cover this up so nobody can see the type of person that I really am? And that did not work well for her. We now know who she is. We now know what she's about. and she now lost her job. I don't give you. She has a post.

She posted an apology. She sent to TMZ. It's three paragraphs. I don't care. That's where I am with this N-Words. I don't care. I don't care. You're not sorry.

You'll say it again. You say it. You're sorry until you got caught. You're sorry for the 15 seconds that we have to acknowledge your apology and then you're right back to where you were before. Like I wouldn't be shocked.

You say it's a publicity. I wouldn't be shocked then if she has a YouTube show called Fartnigger. Telling you, I think the N-word could be looked at as the new leaking your nudes. Something that you do when you want to look

edgy, when you want people to talk about you, this is stuff that I know about. I could be wrong about this. Name one person who's set the N-word and then has built, it was so edgy and so provocative and it gets the people going that they

have success from this. Lindsay Lily Gaddis That's who I was talking about She hasn't though Didn't she reneg And like now she regrets it all Well what I'm saying is

She reneged Keyword She nigged Then she reneged You can only nigg once You can't reneg Okay Yeah

If you go nigg She's gone back Nick I don't Like if you go nig Just a nig She was popular for literally 15 minutes.

But what I'm saying is that like now, this whole conversation, edgy, bullshit, whatever the fuck. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I just, I don't care that much about this. It, uh, it, I did come up with several songs. That what? That surrounded this.

Okay. Because there's a song with no limit called Swamp Nigger. Oh, okay. And you could just change it to fart, nigga. Okay. It's very funny. Okay. I fucking laughed about it.

Um, I was this morning in the shower. I almost couldn't finish because like, finish the shout out because I'm in there. Yeah, I was like, finish the sentence. Yeah. Please, this you were talking about. Like, we, I need you to complete that sentence. You know, but, you know, it's just funny.

You like the term. No, I don't. You like it. I don't like it. You like it. It's funny, though. It's funny to you. It is.

So, first of all. What does it mean? I have no idea. What does it mean? I'm not, I'm not, no, but I'm not. about to get up and be mad about this though because like I'm not bad I'm annoyed I'm annoyed by this it's like I'm not you know it's not that I'm saying you don't care I I'll be honest I don't care I don't care let them all say it no that's not what I'm saying that's not what I'm saying

I'm not saying that you say it you got to get your ass kicked we got to maintain guard rails I'm not saying it at all but what I am saying is I saw this and I was like oh she's fucked And then I was thinking, did she do that on purpose? But you've made the point, maybe she didn't do it on purpose. It's not going to go well for her. You don't think that she's not now. Okay, this is what we'll do. If she did a go fund me, yeah.

She'll get some, she'll get money. That's fair. That's fair. It's two different people between her and Lily. This is what we'll do. What we'll do is we'll watch to see how the fart nigger saga plays itself out. We're on fart nigger watch. We're on fart nigger watch, right?

And so if she ends up, you know, getting a three pictures, deal, a three season order on Fox Nation, the Fart Nigger Rehab Show. Let me go on her page. If she ends up really coming up from it, if she does the whole circuit, if she on Good Morning America, and

if she on Hannity, if she sits down with Megan Kelly, if she does all of this stuff, I'm going to start to think that I was right about the entire fart nigger situation. Okay. That's how it's going to look to me. If she does a whole press run off of it. But if she just like

gets low. Oh, she turned her comments off. She turned the comments off. I was thinking about writing it on one of her pages. How many, how many followers does she have? 328,000. Oh, so she's not even popping like that, man. She definitely did it on purpose.

She turned her comments off. She don't even want people. She wants, let's just forget. I really was going to write fart nigger on her page. Send her a DM. Send her a fart nigger DM. Everybody DM her fart n. If you listen to the podcast right now, what's her at?

Detroit Design. Detroit Design. at Detroit Design Everyone right now Everybody right now Send her a DM and just say fart nigger You see it Let her know that she's got to see us

She can't erase us Okay She's got to see us All right Apology rating for her She apologized What you got? We're doing that

She said It's a zero Zero How would you like her Be her And give the right apology Ford nigger Like what would you do?

That was one's tough because she clearly is like can we kill it right i guess i would say no i'm not going to give them anything just give her like rachel see this is the thing no i don't want to tell her what you should like imagine somebody says and they use my apology i'm not trying to help you out you're not sorry i'm not going to help you be sorry i'm not going to help you find your way what would she do she this is apology regarding hg tv i'm grateful oh my my bad there's more to this but my family Fuck it. What could be more?

Where does she say there's more to this? She says there's more to this, but my family comes first, and I need to be mom right now more than anything else. I would take the time, as I always have been with you, transparent and honest. TMZ called me,

as I had just turned my phone on after being at school, and I said this briefly, but there's more. What she's going to say is that there's somebody on a production that doesn't like her or that the show is out to get her. HGTV,

maybe she beefing with the people in Waco. Because they got their own show. Maybe it's beef. What about them? What are their names again? I like them actually. No, they, they, are their names?

I'm like, Chip, Chip and Joanna. Chip and Joanna from Waco? Yeah. What's going on with them? I don't know. I don't really follow this world. But no, what she'll come out and say is you guys didn't see the whole video.

You didn't see the part where I was profusely apologizing and I was begging them, you know, like, don't put this out there because this could hurt so many people. This isn't a representation. But you miss the part where I was crying and I was so upset.

Because in that video, somebody's laughing in the background. She's kind of smiling. She's like, did I just say that? Yeah, bitch, you said that. Oh, wow. And you've said it again. Okay, you're trying to, trying to throw hands.

Fart nigger. Fart nigger. I would say this, this makes me think about her inward account. What is it? And if she's just saying fart nigger, if she's just saying fart nigger, just like that, like when she like,

think about just saying, word nigger when you do something. Yeah, that's in her vocabulary. Yeah, you just bang your foot. Fart nigger. You just like fart nigger. That tells me that she's in the Mark Wahlberg Hall of Fame. She used it as a what?

An adjective? So you know what we're going to call it? If somebody's in the Mark Wahlberg Hall of Fame, we're going to say that they are amongst the departed. That's the name of this shit. They're to departed. She's not departed. She's not departed.

And, you know, other Nick. Kid Rocking that bitch. Like there's a lot of people that's probably up there in that situation. So good for her. Nicole Curtis. We'll see what happens. We'll continue to watch the story. Donnie,

we're going to continue to watch this story? I'm out of it. But y'all can watch you. Logan. Yes. Tell people where they can find you. You can find me twice a week on Real On The Ringer NBA show, Tuesday and Friday. All right.

You can find me at the LA Convention Center on Saturday, if you want to say what's up and you might be able to find me at a van Illuminati party on Friday. It's not a... I'm kind of scared. I'm not going to lie, but, you know.

Carl Cherry invited me to the party. It's like a... I don't know this. But Carl Cherry, he's the music guy. He went Bradcabiano. Okay, okay, okay. Oh, is that his name? Okay.

There's something different. Aluminati nonetheless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carl's an invite me, but that's okay. I didn't know his name, so that's fair. Yeah, you don't even remember who he was. I knew of my face. You know him by face?

Um, I know my face. I know my face. Guys, last day to vote for the NAACP Image Awards, nominated four times. This is our year. This is it. Help us make it happen. If you've already voted,

if you already voted, send it off to somebody else, get them to vote. I think we deserve it. We're proud of what we do here. Oh shit. Don is in our category? Never mind.

I didn't realize he was. He's in two categories, though, I think. But, damn, Don is a martyr. Don, he's going to win. You know he has a speech already ready. Call him and ask him if he has his speech ready. I would be surprised. Let's see if Don answers the phone.

Call him and see if he has to ask. They didn't just give the award to Don. Tell him we're in the same category and ask him if he already has his speech ready. Yeah, I think Don know what's up. Don't going to win, man. Don't go win. And is that is, and you guys, is, and you know, what the fuck? You got to see if he answered the phone.

Let's see if Don Lemon, if we can get Don Lemon to pick up the phone. He's ringing. Hell, no. Nope. Sorry, the person you were trying to reach. Crazy. Tom, he's swearing you. Crazy, man.

You notice that make you calling, not me. Crazy. Crazy. Oh, I got a text, though. Let's see. Oh, can I call you later? Yes, Don. Yes.

Don! Fucking Lemon. Yes. He acknowledged the call. Don Lemon. You guys, seriously, all just aside. I'm going to say this before we go I'm very proud of what Don Lemon

has been able to do Of course Okay Like very proud of the fact that Don Lemon That journalism that you guys saw in that church No matter what the fuck the administration says It's some of the best journalism I've seen going in that cover in stories like that

Reinventing himself owning it Doing this whole thing Is worth everything that he's getting You know We're from two different worlds You know From Baton Rouge

but still from two different worlds, two different worlds. The hoodie and the suit. It's two different things, but the same time got a lot of respect for the way he's comporting himself when he's been under attack

by the administration. Okay, we're out of here. Thanks to Logan. Thanks to Donnie. Thanks to C.T. Thanks to Jay. Thanks to Bernard. Take the thing caps off

and then I stop learning on Van Lathan Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world

Stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline, is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com.