Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Forget Chris Brown, Usher vs. Justin Timberlake Is the Verzuz Battle We Need

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton’s recent characterization of slavery as a “necessary evil” in American history (10:02); how they’re feeling about the election with less than 100 days to go (30:20); the debate over whether Chris Brown or Justin Timberlake would make for better competition in a Verzuz Battle with Usher (45:18); and the recent situation on Twitter with Talib Kweli (1:04:17). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. Welcome to higher learning. I am Van Lathen. And I am Rachel Lindsay. Rachel, where are you coming from today? I am coming from the West Coast, doing the show the way it was meant to be done originally.

Both of us here in Los Angeles, we are not together, I might add. You did that last week. Okay, we didn't do that this week. You podcasted last week with people in person. Oh, wow, yeah. Wow, yeah. Last week.

I went to my friend's house, yes, sure. Yes, but can I, can I just say that we didn't do that this week, even though I tried to make that happen. So Thought Warriors, I need you guys to listen. I've turned up your volume. It has been a defining moment in my friendship with Van Lathen. And let me tell you why. Yesterday, I came into L.A.

I'm coming to L.A. I'm here because I'm trying to set up my apartment. And I had some struggles with my internet services. And so I messaged Van, who I used to call a friend and said, hey, you know, I'm struggling with my internet. I'm afraid of what the podcast might be tomorrow. You know, could you open up your doors for me and let me come and podcast with you? Do you guys know what his response was?

Pure silence. Nothing. Not a response, nothing. Until I said, never mind. I figured it out. And then he was like, oh, oh, I'm sorry. My bad. I didn't see that.

I said, it's okay. Van, this was a test of our friendship. And you let me know exactly where it is that we stand. Yeah. Couldn't even open your doors for me. What, like, what actually happened yesterday was I actually had one of my uncles pass away. I'm so sorry. Made it up.

Damn. I just wanted to tap you. Just wanted to tap your jaw. Just wanted to tap your jaw. Just wanted to tap your jaw real quick. That didn't happen. Knock a wood, that didn't happen. I literally was going to cry.

Again, again, we are friends. You had never Oh my God. Didn't happen. Didn't happen. I really didn't see it. And by the time, I swear I didn't see it.

And by the time I saw all the messages, you were like, I don't need it anymore. But by the way, I just want to say something else. This is just another situation with you coming to L.A. And then not letting anybody know

that you hit the coast. No, I did tell you I was coming to L.A. You didn't. You did like, you coming to L.A. and not letting me. Anybody know that you could that you're hitting the coast, man? I don't know why you do that. I told you I was coming.

And this time I even said, hey, maybe we should get together. Mm-hmm. And you let me know where we stand. We should do it. No, it's not true. It's not true at all. We should have done it at like Ringer Studios or something like that, had them set it up.

What would, here's the thing. What would make you comfortable with an in-person taping right now? How would things have to be? Real question. How would things have to be to make you comfortable to, to record. I mean, I flew on a plane, so, you know, there's that. As long as we're apart, I mean, the way you, I saw the setup you had last week,

like, that would have been fine for me. You know, we all just sit in different areas of the room. I feel like that works. Although, you know, I don't know. I was walking, I was running earlier, and I was running down Alameda here in downtown L.A. Are you drinking wine? Apple juice.

That's wine. That's definitely wine. Now, just, this is real quick. Let's just revisit the lies that people tell on podcast. Just real quick. The last time you were drinking wine on the podcast, I said, hey, Big Rachel's drinking some wine on the podcast. And what did you say?

You said it's because it's the end of the day on the East Coast. Yeah. And I drink the wine because I'm winding down. You're not on the East Coast anymore. In my mind, I am. Okay. I've only been here just a little. little over 24 hours.

And I just want you to know, so many people tweeted me and were like, you took a big old swig out of that cup. You are, you slurped the wine down. You,

eh, I'm like, God damn, Rach. I got to start getting solid cups. Yeah, but no, I was, I was running, just happened, not too long ago, I was running,

and I was running, because down here in downtown L.A., a lot of times you'll be walking, you'll be running, and you'll see gentlemen with clear packages, with, clothes in them. And what that means is that they were just released from either the federal

facility or the Twin Towers, which is not too far, like literally walking distance away from my house. So I saw two dudes coming and it was obviously they had just gotten out. And I walked past them, say what up, walk past the next guy, say what up. And then one of the guys goes, hey man, can you help me? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Well, the first thing he said to me was you're a cop? And that felt like the biggest fucking insult that anyone could say to you right now. It's like, no, I'm not a fucking cop. Like, what are you talking about?

And then he asked if I can help him. I guess he was waiting for somebody who was supposed to have picked him up. It was very cute because when I called this person, she was super excited to see him that he was coming home and stuff like that. But he was like, yo, can you call this person and ask Jennifer or whoever it is where she's at or whatever. And I'm like, yo, no, no, no problem. And I was thinking to myself, actually, you could just call her here.

But I thought, well, two things happened. Because my brain was frying. I didn't want to get too close to him. Yeah, no. Because he had just been in, even in a lockup facility that I was thinking to myself, yo. And then I was like, well, here, you just take the phone.

And then I was like, no. don't give him the phone. Like, what are you doing? But so right away, my mind just short-circuited as to how I should deal with another human being asking me to do something. There was three different protocols in my mind. Don't get too close them. And I was like, no, no, no, no, you stay right there.

Stay right there. He goes, oh, no, I'm okay. You okay, bro? I'm like, yeah, yeah, stay right there. I'm like, just yell the number to me and then I'll dial it and then I'll talk to her for you. Is that okay with you? And then he was like, sure. And so I called and got in touch with that.

then I had to do it for another guy and then for another guy. And then the last guy was like, yeah. That's so nice. Yeah, I'm getting out of here, you know. But yeah, but like, so I'm just saying intense uncomfortability from like a human being. So I get it if people aren't comfortable, you know what I mean? It's a very scary thing. But I think in that situation and just all these situations right now, everybody gets it. So, you know, all you have to be like is, look, I'm a little, you know, we got COVID going on, just yell out the number.

You know, everybody gets it for the most part, unless you're in a grocery store and, you know, know. You freak out. Someone's not wearing a mask, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen one of those yet, man. I haven't seen one of those because we have a little neighborhood grocery that we go to down here where it's one of those nice organic groceries in L.A. where you pay $25 for a loaf of bread.

But you feel good because they go, oh, it comes from a local farmer or something like that. Yeah. You get a side of beef from a local farmer for $250. So don't feel bad about it. Probably from the fucking reselling you shit from Ralph's. But so I haven't been in any big grocery stores lately. So I don't know. I really want to see somebody freak out over a mask.

Y'all got slim pickings out here. I went to Target, nothing. There is nothing out here. Is that how all the stores are? Because I need to make sure I do my shopping in Florida before I permanently come out here. What does that mean? You're going to do shopping and bring the food?

Like, I can get necessities. Like there was no Lysol. There were no, like, Like little things that I need to set up around here. Like, I just couldn't find, like, bath mats that I needed. Even, like, toothbrush holders. Like, all of it was just completely wiped out. Wow.

I don't know about the toothbrush holders and shit like that. I'll never brought a toothbrush holder in life. I don't think. Like, I don't think I've ever bought one. Your toothbrush. I wrap it up in toilet paper and keep it in a medicine cabinet. No, I'm just, no, I don't, no. No, I'm just joking.

That's not true. I'm just joking. That's not true. But no, which target did you go to? Westwood. I live in Westwood. Oh, Westwood. So I don't know nothing about that.

I'm sorry. I don't like the way you said that. I don't know nothing about Westwood, man. Westwood's very nice, very nice area. I don't know nothing about it. So why don't you go to the target instead of normal people shop at it? Maybe you can find some supplies. The target where?

That normal people shop at. Maybe you should go to my name. I don't know L.A. that. Look, see, you are welcoming at all. You could, you could direct me to another place. I'm just going to the local, to the local target. Sure. I have a question for you. What? What's your opinion on slavery? Where do I even, how do I even answer that question? What do you mean? What is my opinion on slavery? Obviously, I'm not a proponent of slavery. Is it obvious? Why would I be for slavery? The question is not why would Rachel Lindsay be for slavery? Correct.

The question is why would anyone be for slavery, right? Well, there's a certain group of people that that would appeal to. Precisely. Very easy answer. These are the things that we're talking about here. Things that in 2020 should be very easy answers. Correct. We have seen what slavery, not just the,

institution in its beginnings and in antiquity did to the people then, but what the legacy of slavery has done to the fabric of American society and specifically to the African American black community. So it seems like a slam dunk layup no-brainer that if slavery is brought up, your answer should be no, no, no worse, bad, hate. apparently not because Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton described slavery as a necessary evil. This happened. So he is a Republican senator

from Arkansas. His name is Tom Cotton. Now, there's been some talk. There's this fantastic project that I'm sure everybody's heard of that the New York Times is done both on podcasts and in publication called the 1619 project, which reimagines the genesis of America through the lens of the beginning of slavery, how that affected the cultural, political, and economic development of the country.

It is fantastic in the way it breaks these things out. There's been some talk of schools adopting the lens of the 1619 project in a way to have a realer, less sort of bullshit it, I'll put it. Teaching of American history. Now, Senator Tom Cotton

is against that. He's against U.S. schools from teaching the 1619 project. Doesn't want that to happen. He said, this is what Senator Cotton said. We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise,

wise we can't understand our country. As the founding father said, it was the necessary evil on which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction. I'm going to read this part to you very carefully so that the thought warriors out there can make up their own minds about what Senator the continent meant when he said this particular part of this. As the founding father said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction.

Immediately after Senator Cotton said this, it was viewed, as I still view it right now, as Senator Cotton characterizing slavery as a necessary evil. We should say that since then, Senator Cotton has come back and said that he was quoting the founding fathers who obviously believe that slavery was a necessary evil. And he does not believe that. Again, I always feel a certain way when people have to come back

after they've seen how what they said has been scrutinized. And so they come up against the court of public opinion and now they want to rewrite, speaking of being a revisionist, as he has said about this project, that is what he is doing. No, Mr. Tom, Senator Tom Cotton, the best name he could possibly have, right? Yes. No, you said what you said and you meant it.

I mean, the fact that you were going through such extreme measures as trying to legislate this says it all. How can, as you said, man, in 2020, this should be a slam dunk. This should be something that's easy. The irony in what is happening right now in our country and you were trying to propose a bill that completely contradicts it. This bill embodies exactly what blacks are fighting for and against. They want to fight for the right to be represented and the right to matter. And this bill wants to legislate that way. They want to take away. They want, this doesn't fit in Senator Tom Cotton's view of history. It doesn't benefit him in any way. And,

honestly, white people aren't held in high regard when it comes to this. But this is the truth. And it's important for you to know that this isn't just the 1619 project. Yes, it formed from an essay that was written. But this is something that has been, you know, fact-checked in the Smithsonian and through research and development. Like, this is the real deal. And telling it through the eyes of, I don't want to, yeah, telling it through the eyes of black people from this perspective, it's very true. It's very necessary. because when you read the history of America, yes, you read about Columbus in 1492, but you also read that in 1776 is when this country started, but it actually started more than a century before that. And it started on the backs of black people. And this project

enforces that and tells that story and how America wouldn't be what it was if what happened in 1619, August of 1619, to be exact, happen when slaves were brought here to America and how they were used. And so I think it's so important that you want know this history and know this project and listen to the podcast, read about it, whatever it is that you need to do to understand it if you don't know already, but also how important it is to know what Senator Tom Cotton is doing because this is something that has been done since the beginning of this country. He is trying to erase what is actual history and rewrite a history that benefits and uplifts people that look just like him. Well said. And also systems that empower him. Yes. So there's a reason why we're

starting to show with this small thing seemingly, but actually this is exactly what we're fighting against. Yes. If you listen to the 1619 podcast or if you read what the New York Times has put out, very little of it is controversial in terms of whether or not it's fact. Mm-hmm. Okay. What it is, though, is America, I think we've talked about this before, America gets involved in great man history, right? They tell us that even in what Senator Cotton said,

he said that the founding fathers said this, and the founding fathers did that. And what he's doing is he's sort of using the greatness of the founding fathers in order to pull the wool over current society's eyes, regarding this particular situation, right? He goes, well, listen, these guys who are so great and pure said that we had to do this, so that means that we had to do it, right? If you look at history holistically in every part of it, right, from, you know, what Jefferson

did with, it's very detailed the way they look at the 1619 project. They look at where Jefferson was when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, who was with him when he wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they give you the full scope of what it meant, what he was saying, what he was trying to say, and what he actually said. And it's a better lens in which to view the foundation of America. Because if you view the foundation of America through that lens, you get a better understanding into some of the problems that we have even to this day

and how those problems were inevitable. Now, I'm not going to summarize or paraphrase any of that stuff for you because in order to get the full power of it, you need to enrich yourself and go out there and listen to it for yourself. What I will say is any attempt by anyone, be that Senator Tom Cotton or anybody else here, to make us believe that slavery was necessary, thereby palatable, thereby good in any other. way for American society is speaking not just foolishly but evilly. That's an evil notion. On this very podcast, we talked a little while ago about a couple of different black celebrities who waded into the disgusting waters of anti-Semitism. Some of them jumped in head first.

Some of them inadvertently waited into them. Now, when we had those conversations, I heard from a lot of people, and I listen with open ears and an open heart to them. And what some of those people told me, and they were trying to implore upon me while they need us to be staunch allies against anti-Semitism. What they said to me is they said, listen, if anybody comes out and says anything that's mildly racist, they're canceled right away. but in the case of whoever it might be, it doesn't seem like you guys are willing to do the same thing. What I tried to implore, excuse me,

what I tried to impart upon the people that were saying that was that that isn't true. This is an example of that. This is not me spiking the football. This is me explaining how it feels sometimes to be black and American. Yeah. If any sitting American politician

would have even in any way, in any way, tried to intellectually navigate what Hitler's mindset was when he envisioned the final solution and then enacted the final solution because that is something that Hitler also thought was necessary, right? He was trying to build a world through his vision that he thought was whatever, okay? Pure evil.

pure evil, but that's the way he sold it. Any politician that did that right away would be done. Yeah. Right away. What you have in that instance is Tom Cotton taking one of the largest evils ever done to a people, ever. and either subconsciously or overtly communicating that it was necessary for him to live in the society that he lives in right now. This is why when people come at me and go, people like that are automatically canceled,

I go, but they're not. Not only are they not canceled, but I have zero power to take power from Tom Cotton. Tom Cotton's constituency Most likely I can't speak for those people Because I'm not down there in Arkansas But most likely don't give a fuck About what he just said

That's the power That we're up against We're up against the power That is held by people That don't necessarily think slavery was wrong Or even if they think it was wrong Think that it was a necessary wrong in order to build the...

Here's the thing about the founding fathers. They thought that. They said that. Guess what? They were wrong and they were evil. If you can do that to human beings, they were wrong and they were evil. America, fucking deal with it.

Come the terms with it, dog. It's because we were taught that the founding fathers were almost godlike. You know what I mean? They revered them and put them on such a pedestal that they almost weren't human. That's almost how it was taught.

to us. When you tell little stories like George Washington never told a lie, well, I thought that was Jesus Christ. You know what I mean? Like it's, that's, that's what's been embedded in their minds. And to add on to what you were saying, it's also these people who think that, okay, but slavery happened so many years ago, you're not affected by it anymore. And that's the importance of the 1619 project, because as you said, it points to systemic racism and how we've been building on that for centuries and centuries. And it's just important. We talked about this last week about, like, in Portland, like, wake up and pay attention to what's happening. It's little things like this, because I'm sure Tom Cotton is not the only person who thinks like this. I mean, he obviously

was voted into office. Also, Arkansas Thought Warriors, I don't, we don't have to cancel him as a person, but we can definitely cancel him as a politician. I have no idea when he is up for re-election, but please get that man out of office. I don't know. But it's important. But it's important. important that we pay attention and we recognize that there are people with power who still have this type of thinking and are still trying to shape a generation that won't know about the history, the true history of this country. Because you already heard about how schools are trying to take slavery out of history books. Here is a person trying to pass a legislation, trying to pass legislation to get that done. Do I think that it's going to gain any traction? No. But the fact that

he's trying to do it is a problem. Yeah. You know, when I worked at TMZ, we would have conversations about slavery and have conversations. Somebody would read a book. I remember Harvey had read a book about Thomas Jefferson. He was talking about how great Thomas Jefferson was.

I was awesome. Thomas Jefferson. And it's coming up on me. Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. Brilliant man. Brilliant man, Thomas Jefferson. A rapist. Murderer.

It's just facts. And what I would get back directly out of Harvey's mouth and about other people is like, man, those were just the times. Those were the times. Those were the times that people lived in. So fucking what? Yeah, we're supposed to be okay with that? Like, yeah.

Okay, cool, cool, cool. Right, so fucking what. And it's not as if America, it's not as if those were the times. And then we reconciled those times, talked about how abhorrent they were and then vowed through both systemic change and emotional plea to make things different in America. No, and that's another thing that the 1619 project does. They also let you know how many of the tenets of American life and the pillars that America

built its power on, such as capitalism, were driven by the slave trade and not necessarily the slave trade itself, but of chattel slavery here in the mainland United States, how prices of cotton as set in England controlled the treatment of individuals in Alabama. Understanding how those systems are tethered gives you context to the way the country grew and the way that it operates today. I didn't even realize that bonds. And like when you talk about they wrapped up slaves, they had slavery-backed bonds.

One of the things that, and if I'm ignorant for not having known this, then I learned this in the 1619 project, I learned that just as in the 2008 financial crisis that they took bad mortgages and, you know, different mortgages. is and they securitized them, right? Put them together and we're able to trade them.

They did the same thing with human beings. Yeah. Well, that's because we weren't considered those. We were not considered human beings like they were. We were like animals. Right. But what I'm saying is that idea which originated in then became a lot of the ways that the market worked,

a lot of the ways that banks got a lot of their initiative. wealth. A lot of this, and it's all tied to the same thing. Even for the scope of just how important the exploitation of black people has been to the building of this country is incredibly important information when we're in this moment. And that's all, you know, and so we start to show with that today because these flippant notions, of kind of casting off slavery, it was the times and this is what they were doing, it was a necessary evil.

Those are incredibly evil, dangerous things to say. It is tantamount to say, oh, well, what Hitler was doing, it was just what he believed. Those were the times or what, what Stalin was doing. It was just what he was doing. Or what Miles was doing is, just what it was the times. Put it to now. You know what I mean?

Would you say that right now? That's easy to say because you weren't present then. Imagine if now those were the times. Would you be saying, well, I just got to accept it. That's just how the way. things are right now. No, you would not. So stop. It's easy to separate yourself from the past, but put that to what's going on right now. Nobody's saying, oh, Black Lives Matter, it's just the times. We're just going to, you know, like, deal with it. No, like, people are fighting against it.

Even the person who leading our country is fighting against it. It's not saying, just, just black people matter. It's just the times now. Right. It's just, it's just so frustrating, man. Like, no one is, it's just truth. People are just asking. to be able to recognize, teach, and absorb the truth about who we are. But when the truth paints you in a way that you've never been painted before, that's hard for people to accept. That's what Tom, that's happening to Tom Cotton right now.

You don't want that truth. Well, look, here's the thing, man. I think it's a better idea if everyone just come to terms with the fact that we're about to get this shit out here, baby. You know what I'm saying? Like we're about to get this. You can hear the truth. Like when I called for that guy, I got to be honest with you here, quick. So I call for two guys, right?

One of them is having sex tonight. One of them isn't. I could feel that truth. I can feel it. But I made those calls. Because of when the people answered the phone. Got you. One girl, listen, this is, I promise you, big racially, is true.

One girl picked up the phone like, where is he at? Where is he? He's on that. He's on that. He's on that. I want me to wear. Where? Okay. Wait, where? Okay. I'm like, listen. No. You have to let me tell you where he's going to be.

He's like, tell her to come around to the front. I'm like, yeah, he's going to be around to the front of the thing. Okay, okay, okay. I'm coming right now. I'm coming right now. And I said, oh, by the way, bro, I said she's, I said she's very excited. And she goes, shut up. And then she hung the phone up.

The other girl, when I called, she was like, why didn't he just stay where where is he at? Give me the exact number. Give me the exact number. Where is he at? Where is he at? And I was like, oh, okay, you're done. You like, you, like, you're done.

Man, she might have never come. She just might have been looking for the place to avoid. She's like, oh, okay, that's where I don't need to be. Got you. A nigga has been teaching his son how to color. They've been like, I'm telling you, they've been doing all kinds of. But what I'm saying is, I felt the truth. You can feel the truth.

Feel it. And it is what it is. Now, we are around 100 days out until the nation makes one of the most faithful and important decisions about its future ever. We are almost, it seems so weird. We are a little less than 100 days away from the November elections. Biden versus Trump, Trump versus Biden. what do you think? How are you feeling? Doesn't it seem really far away?

A hundred days sounds so far to me. I'm sorry. I'm just a person who is very realistic and maybe more leaning towards the side of negative. And a hundred days is really far away. And a lot could happen in a hundred days. And I just keep going back to 2016. And I'm scared. I'm scared that.

you know, all the polls are saying one thing. And, you know, there's being, this is all being fought in, or Biden is leading in battleground states. And, you know, even in states that normally are very red, they're turning purple, maybe leaning a little blue. I just am so scared to accept it because of what happened before. And I look at all the things that, like, as the country stands right now, 100 days to the election. There are so many things that are against Trump. And every day Trump is in the public eye, he does something that, to me, turns voters away from him. But what if things change, right?

Because the thing is, is that it's not that people are excited about Biden. It's not that people are like, I'm ready to go vote for Biden. They are so disheartened and upset and disgusted with the way that Trump has, handle things that they're just turning away from Trump. They're not running towards Biden. And even if you looked at the polls before coronavirus, right, mid-February, Trump was leading. Trump was leading five months ago. What changed after mid-February?

Coronavirus, the economy, Black Lives Matter movement. We've got these racial tensions. We've seen, you know, President Trump lie. We've seen how he's handled things, how he's politicized education, race. health, all these things have happened, and it's turned us against him. But just as quickly as they happen, I mean, things could change around. I don't know how quickly the economy and coronavirus, but they could. And people could float right back to Trump. That's to me what's scary and why I'm so on edge, even if it's 100 days. If you told me it was 10 days, I'd be like, let's do this.

He's going to get out of office. But a lot could happen, a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely don't trust the The only poles I trust now are deja vu show girls down there in downtown Los Angeles. I trust those poles because I've seen girls climb all the way up to the top of them, slide around them. I've seen two girls on them. I once saw three girls on them. And the base they had on them was, you know, from one of the upper weight classes. I would never trust it after I saw that girl fall on her face in Dallas. Well, she fell off the pole, though, didn't she?

No, she fell down. Like she- My point is The pole was still standing Yeah, the pole was still standing You know what I'm saying? So that's user That's user error right there

What I'm talking about is I've never been at a strip club And seen a girl get on the pole At a club And seen a girl get on the pole And the pole just crumbled Never seen it I trust those poles

These other poles Don't trust them as much Because we tried to climb up those polls in 2016 and they failed a fuck over. So for me personally, don't trust any of the polls, man. Don't trust them. I'm scared

as fuck. See? Everybody is, and by the way, I've reached out to Simone Sanders. I want you guys thought warriors. I want you guys to put a little pressure on my sister Simone Sanders to get her. She's one of Biden's incredible woman.

One of Biden's big time surrogates. She's actually not a surrogate. She works inside the campaign. I think she's his communication director. I was the main one. She is. Okay.

But there are a couple of people up there, though. She's the face. She's the face. She's the face. It's an amazing, amazing, talented lady. We want her on higher learning. Put a little pressure. Simone Sanders.

Find Simone Sanders at her. We're saying we adding you, Simone Sanders. We want you to come on here and build a little enthusiasm. for Vice President Biden's campaign. Yeah, build a little bit of enthusiasm for it. Yeah, Adder, at Simone, build a little enthusiasm. Tell us what we don't know about Vice President Biden that would make us super enthused to go out there and cast that ballot.

Because you're right. It's very difficult, it's the same in boxing. It's very difficult to, like, to beat the champion. Right? You have to take the champion's belt. Yeah. So it was a very famous fight between Oscar Delahoya and Felix Trinidad in the early 2000s, right? Very famous fight.

What happened in this fight was Felix Trinidad was Battle of the Titans. Puerto Rico versus Mexico. Oscar de Ojoa versus Phoenix, Big fight. Oscar goes out, Felix is the champion. I think this was at 147. Oscar goes out and he dominates the early part of the fight. really he's giving Tito a boxing lesson. Ah, I, I, E, ooh, ah, all of that.

But towards the last part of the fight when Delahoya was up on points, he ran a little bit. He thought, hey, if the fight is 12 rounds, I've won seven or eight rounds already, then I can dance away and the victory is just going to come to me. when the judges read the scorecards, what do you think happened to Oscar Delahoya? He lost. He lost the fight.

And if he would have actually gone out and in a couple of the last rounds attempted to win the fight, to take the belt from the champion, to impose his will to actually maybe campaign for the championship, he might have won it. Now I'm not saying in this situation

whether or not Joe Biden should be more Oscar de la Jolla, or excuse me, if Joe Biden should learn from Oskirts de La Jolla and try to knock Trump out, or if he should play it safe and lay back. What I'm telling you is that the laying back is making me fucking nervous, man.

The lay of back is it making me nervous. I mean, more so I don't want him to get cocky and think he has it. I can take the laying back, right? Like I don't need to hear you ain't black I don't need to hear that anymore That was bad It was bad

It was bad It was so bad Especially because of You know And I don't want to turn people against Biden Because our goal is to get Trump out of office But when you look at the history of Joe Biden And how he's voted

And what he's stood for And certain things he said And then he's like you ain't black It's like okay Biden calm down Hikes dog Stop Just because you don't like what I say it Just because Obama is your best friend doesn't mean you get a pass to say those kind of thing.

It was bad. It was really, really bad. And I feel like people felt like we didn't say that enough on the podcast. But it was bad. You guys, it was bad. It is what it is. It's terrible. When you're telling your story, it reminds me of Aesop's Fables.

Or did you say Aesop's Fables? Was it Aesop or Aesop? I know Aesap Rocky. I say Asop. But I don't know if Isop or Aesop. I don't know what it is either. I never read those. Like, I didn't.

I didn't get the shit to this is a costume. I'm not saying. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I never read the original versions of shit like that. But you know certain ones like the tortoise in the hair. Yes, right. But I saw it as a cartoon. Yeah, but I get it.

Okay, but it's a fable. It's a fable. So when you were telling the story about the boxers, because I've never seen that fight, and I don't really know anything about it. It just reminds me of the tortoise in the hair. And what you don't want is for Biden to get cocky and sit back and think that he has this. and then here comes Trump, you know?

And it could very easily turn. But as we stand right now, it's not even the polls that I'm believing. It's just more of what Trump is doing to this country and the way that we are and the fact that he is losing people that voted for him before. Like his core base, we're not turning those people. He's got them, right? It's almost like, if you ain't a white supremacist, you vote for Trump. Right.

people he's got, but he's losing people that he had before, like suburban moms, you know, the way that he's handling, the opening of schools is going to be telling for him, the way the economy goes, the way coronavirus. I mean, now he's changing his tune and, you know, he's back in front of the camera, holding the briefings and everything, but you've been preaching something to us for four months, and now you're changing it. There's inconsistencies. There's lies.

Even Fox News is starting to turn on him a tad. So I think that it's promising, but. we got to be cautious. When you say suburban moms voted for Trump, what kind of suburban moms are you talking about there? White. White suburban moms. White women, we need y'all to turn on Donald Trump.

Yeah. Okay. That's, I mean, that's why he's saying lies to you, like Biden wants to destroy suburbia. That doesn't even make any sense. That's why he's feeding you lies about, Biden wants to defund the police. He has never, ever, ever even said that.

I mean, it's, you have to pay attention. And yes, white women. We need you. We need you. Turn on Donald Trump. I might even listen. White women, y'all been wilding these last couple of months. Let's be real.

Have a conversation with the white ladies. Y'all been wilding. Y'all been whaling for a couple of months now. You see y'all. I don't know what's going on. But wake up, white ladies. Turn against Donald Trump. It was 53% the last time.

I think it was 53% of white ladies. That's crazy to me when there was a white lady running. So I had to take time to give credit where it's due. Look, like it's very hard to say this. But if America decides to reelect President Trump in November, then the country is signing us on death warrant. And it's a rat. And it's deserved.

We can't survive. another four years of this. But if we have come to this point, if we are so cowardly and so against looking at ourselves, taking stock in ourselves, and making the concrete changes and doing the hard study work that it takes to get better as a society,

if we can't do that, then that's where we are. But I don't know if I can handle it. Like, I'm saying all this, but in my mind, I've just, said it just can't happen. Well, I'm honest with you. It might. I know, I know, but I just, I can't, like mentally, I can't handle that right now.

I've cried one time at an election, and that was first time Obama was elected. I will be brought to tears again. When you cry because Obama. For some type of plan B, some type of plan B. Plan B, the whole country are going to need plan B, but they're not going to be able to find plan B because it's going to, we're going to get rid of Planned Parenthood. When you cried, when Obama was elected, like, how much campaigned had you done for McCain at that point? Like, why were you so upset?

Wow. Is that why? I'm asking. You know, when Obama was elected, I was in law school, was my first year. And I remember I was in Milwaukee. I'm going to change the subject. I was in Milwaukee. And to talk about a beautiful moment while you try to put me on McCain.

So I wasn't far from Chicago where the celebration was. going. And I remember I was in a room full of law school students who were majority white, if not all white at the time, because there were only nine people in my class for law school, my incoming class. And he was elected, and I remember everybody was silent, except for me. And I just looked around and I was like, wow, these white people are shook. Like, they are not okay that this just happened. So I excused myself because I could just feel the tears of joy welling up in my eyes. And I left and I went to my roommate

who was black and we just hugged each other and cried. I take that back. I'm going to cry either way. This election goes. Either way, there's a reason to cry for different reasons. This is the fundamental difference

between Van and Big Rache. Big Rache is classy. Big Rache is classy. She was raised as, as a central Texas princess. And she, because of that, you let me would have been the only black person in that room with a bunch of stunned white people.

You let that that would have happened. I'd have been like, ah, ha, niggers. You know why I say niggas? Because guess what? Y'all are niggas now. all of you can get fucked. I'm like all of you. It's one that you guys know it's over.

Here come the reparations. It's all over for y'all. It's over. We fucking it up. Everything has changed, guys. We're about to remove the Lincoln Monument. Put a statue of Bobby Brown in that motherfucker. It's done.

And they would have hated. Now, none of that happened. I know what this happened, but I'm saying, I'm saying, but I would have gone twice as hard. Fuck you. I didn't have to. He was the president. It was all, it was all, like, that's it.

That's it. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful, beautiful moment. Tasteful vixen. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, Gucalcumab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe

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then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.

And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Tasteful. Now, it's time for a little bullshit. Time for the bullshit. I mean, it's not bullshit. These are things that are very important, but not quite as important as the election in November.

Or or very powerful white men normalizing slavery. Huge, huge debate took place. Cultural debate this weekend. Now, when you have these cultural debates, sometimes,

Rach, you tend to injure the ego. of musicians when you start comparing them. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you can hurt people's egos. This debate, though, was about a potential versus battle between Usher, who I don't think can be beaten in the versus battle. No.

Amongst any of his contemporaries. I mean, you can match Usher with Dr. Dre or somebody like that, or Quincey Jones, you beat Usher. But amongst any of his singing and dancing contemporaries, don't think Usher can be beat in a versus. battle. However, not so fast. Twitter doesn't think that Usher versus Chris Brown in the versus battle was a very hotly debated topic over this last couple of days, so much so that Chris Brown addressed it and said he don't even want to do the versus battle.

Twice. He eventually adjusted twice. I didn't see the second time. What do you say the second time? That he could win on features alone. Oh yeah, I did see when he said that. Yeah, he said he could win on features alone against. Doesn't even count. Doesn't even count. Usher. I'll ask you right now. You're younger than me. I am 40. You are like late 20s, early 30s or something like that. 35. 35. Okay. So you're closer to Chris Brown's age. How old is Chris Brown? Like I think 31 or 32. Really? He said his 30s? Wow.

Yeah, I think 31 or 32. So you're closer to Chris Brown's age. Who are you choosing? Usher. Usher for sure. I don't even have to let you finish the sentence. Usher, you could stop it my way and confessions. And that's it. You don't even need to keep going. No, I'm just saying. Like, that's both of those you could press play and let them play all the way through.

And I'm not taking anything away from Chris Brown. But when you say something, no, you don't believe me? No. Noticable that you skipped 8701. It's not my favorite. It's not that it's not good. Oh! Oh, wait, wait.

8701 is your favorite? I'll pull out to the Sky 10101. Confessions. 8701, to me, is the best album out of the three of those. We don't have our own versus battle. We don't have our own versus battle.

We can do it right now. You ain't saying shit. Like, hold on. 8701. Give me 8701 versus confessions. We'll do it right now. 8701. And by the way, I've had this argument already.

I can call Brian Michael Cox right now. And he'll bounce with me. Listen, I don't need you to be name dropping about producers and people. I'm just saying. Brian Michael Cox. I don't need that. Look him up. Look up Brian Michael Cox right now.

I'm fully aware of who he is. I'm fully aware. I don't need you to name you up. Let me call Usher. 87. I'm sure you can't call him. Probably got you with your people. So I just on 8701 right now.

Bang. You remind me. Like, I don't know. What's you can to do girl? Dope. You got it bad. What? You don't have to call.

What? Can you help me? What? Now, U-Turn is on this song. You turn sucks. That's okay. But how do I say? How do I say hello?

I just want to talk to you. That song is fucking off the chain. Okay. And this is the deluxe edition. Okay. Are you done? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. It's like whatever. It's pop song. You got confession. Oh, you don't have to call it in a pop song. Stop. Okay. Stop.

Confessions part one and part two. Let us not forget the remix, okay? Let us not forget the remix. You have people call it from jail, okay? You have people call it from jail. On the remix. You got burn. Burrne.

Caught up. Superstar. Caught up is okay. Okay. That's your opinion. Bad girl. Then you had the bedtime music with that's what it's made for. Can you handle it?

Do it to me? Come on. You didn't even mention throwback. Throwback is on that. Oh, throwback and throwback. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for proving my point even further.

A701 is the best. is a better album. 8701 is better than confessions. But I think what we're proving at this point is Usher clearly wins. Yeah, we just fucked over Chris Brown. It's nothing against Chris Brown. I mean, when Chris Brown said that he could win on features alone, I thought that's not the point.

This is now your ego talking. Let's be real, though. Chris Brown has some insanely amazing features. But that doesn't count. It does count. In the versus battle, it does count. They let you put your features on there. I just, I, but to me, it goes fine, fine, put the features on it.

But the fact that this was actually Usher's music, I think just takes it another level. You got to be on a feature, which means somebody else helped make that song great. I just, I just, mm-mm, mm-mm. But I saw some, an interesting argument on Twitter that said, it's not fair because it's a generational thing. And they were basically saying that nobody in Usher's generation could pair up with Usher. It's not fair for Chris Brown because it's a little bit of a different, type of music is what someone was saying. And I thought about that for a second because I said,

you know what, though, if you compared Usher and compared him to somebody in a different generation, like a prince, everybody would be like, Prince, please. Are you kidding me? You don't even compare. That has nothing to do with the fact that there's different generations. It has to do with the fact that Usher cannot fuck with Prince

in any way. I agree with you. Right. But there are guys from Prince's generation who can fuck with him. And then there's only one guy. The thing, what really happened, though, What really happened was in the 90s, there weren't a shit ton. In the 90s, like, the solo male star, singing star wasn't as big of a deal,

pop star type dude. It was very group heavy in the 90s. Like Bobby Brown and those guys, Bobby Brown for a while was the big dude, as far as that was concerned. But in the 90s, you didn't have too many guys that were on that pop music way. Not the pop, right. They were all R&B. They were all just R&B.

Not that were really dancing. Genuine. Genuine is close as you get. Genuine is close. And if you put Genuine and usher together, usher will wash genuine. You know what I mean? But I will say this.

There is one guy. And I should say Chris Brown, great music. Chris Brown, he wouldn't get washed. Chris Brown, great music. Whatever you think about Chris Brown, great music, fantastic dancer, better dancer than Usher, Chris Brown.

Better dancer. Okay, agree. Better dancer than Usher. But it is a different style of music because when Chris Brown really started doing this thing, he even got into a weird, he's kind of come back now. He's gotten to a weird world music type of vibe and all of that stuff like that.

But somebody that's an Usher contemporary that would make for an interesting versus battle and that would actually settle an argument and a schism that even existed then would never be allowed to battle Usher because this person has fucked up a lot of their currency with the community. That guy is Justin Timberlake. If you were to put Usher in a, if you were to put Usher in a battle, because there was a time, right, when Justin Timberlake,

drop Justified, right? Justify comes out. Justify starts building up, and then he seemingly threatened Usher's control over that whole thing. And Usher then put his foot in Timberlake's ass with confessions, because Confessions ended up being such a monster album. But then Usher went, if we're being honest, right after that, Usher went a little bit cold.

and Justin Timberlake became the guy with future sex love sounds and all of that stuff he was the man after that and then 2020 came around the 2020 experience all of that stuff Justin Timberlake was the man and then he fell to fuck off with man at the woods or whatever

so I think if the community were willing if the culture were willing to let it happen a better battle would be usher versus Justin Timberlake because really Chris Brown is the usher of these new kids. Correct. Right. Correct.

So like there's nobody in his in Chris Brown's realm who can fuck with him. But really it would be Timberlake. I agree. But like you said, the culture is never going to accept him. They ran him away. You know, like that. You said you don't know what have a man in the woods. He went country on stage with Chris Stapleton.

He's to a man in the woods. He's acting. We have completely run him out of the culture. But yes, there was a time where Justin Timber, like, that would be such a good versus battle. But the thing is, it wouldn't be fair. Like, nobody would be supporting Justin except for Jessica Beal. And so it wouldn't be as exciting to watch.

You know what I mean? He got one fucking fan on the line. It's just Jessica Beale. Everybody else like, kill him, Us. Kill him and Jessica Beal like, go ahead, baby. The question is, though, but look, I don't know if that's true. I'll tell you why. The reason why I don't know if that's true

is because one half of the people who have made the verses, what it is, is Timberland. Timberland invented Justin Timberlake sound. So a lot of the records that you would hear in a versus battle would be directly coming from guys who have already battled.

So Justin Timberlake has been on versus because Scott Storch dropped Crimeeer River. Timberland played Justin Timberlake records. So he's already been it. It's just after what happened with Janet Jackson, and after we had one of our icons left holding on the back for something that two people were involved in, right? And Justin Timberlake basically kind of just skit, skit, skirt, skirted town

and left her holding that water. A lot of people are if he on Justin now. Well, and then it's deeper than that too, because he's so was entrenched in our culture, yet when it comes to stand up for us, you don't. So you make the music. You don't think he tries? Yes, but then, well, recently,

the most recent thing I could think of is him trying and then getting shut down, which I honestly didn't think that that one was fair. But he has gotten a lot of criticism for not speaking up and out. Like you're so involved in us, but you don't stand with us, I think outwardly. And that's what people have such a problem for. You can't just like, you know, make money off of us. You got to be about us at the same time. Yeah, there was one point, and look, I've been a little hard on Justin Timberlake on the old Twittersphere.

Have you? Yeah, man. I like to, like, I like Justin Timberlake. I like, I do. I like them. I think I'm a huge fan. Musically, a huge fan. 2020 experience, at least the first disc that came out, the second one.

Yeah, the first one. The first one that came out, there are a couple of good ones on the second one. the one with Drake is fantastic, but the first one is much, much better. But I'm a gigantic Justin Tabilly fan. Love the music. Love it. Really do.

But there's a little bit, sometimes he comes across as a little inauthent. And I really do think he's trying. He tries his best. And I think he did he cares, but sometimes something missing. Like he posted something and Amanda got at him because he posted something.

That was the most recent one. But then he turned his comments. comments off. So it's almost like... I didn't think that that was fair for him to get attacked for that. Why? So what was it? It was it a mod? I think it was a mod Arbery. I think he posted about a mod. How can you turn your comments off at a time like that? Okay. I don't think he was turning his comments off. And this is just me, this is the reason

I don't have an issue with it is because he posted, okay? You complain about Justin Timberlake because he's not outspoken. He's not standing with you and he doesn't do anything. So the man posts. He turns off his comment because maybe people, people are commenting super, super negative, racist things, and it's spewing and creating this community of hatred. And all you're trying to do is bring light and awareness to what's happening against black people. I don't think that that's a problem.

You can't complain that he's not posting and also complain that he turned off his comments. Like, to me, like, he posted. No, first of all. We don't disagree on this one. Have you ever turned your comments off? No. Okay.

The moment I have a, I bet I catch you, turn your comments off. I've never turned my comments. Have you seen my comments? I've never turned my comments. They'd be lit. I'd be lit. I'll just be joking. And by the way,

they love Rache. Because, like, I'll say something and be like, hey, Van, fuck you. You sound like a salty jealous. I'm like, yo, this is, I'm just joking with her. Like, remember the Cadillac thing? You post, Rachel posted the Cadillac thing under.

By the way, that was fucking hysterical. The Cadillac ad was hysterical. Hey, in these uncertain times, I like to get my Cadillac a ride around. What the fuck? And so then I posted something about it. And then it's under there like, yo, you sound like a salty fucking female. I'm like, oh, man, it's a joke.

No, people were more on your side on that one than they were on me. Well, you showed me something from a different set of threads. But yeah. But no, what I'm saying about Justin Timberlake is like, you cannot possibly cut your comments off. That strangles the conversation. Like, to me, to me, the purpose of, you put something out there, right? And if you get the negativity, this is exactly what we have to go through. We have to go through some of the negativity.

We have to go through some of the back and forth. Don't cut yourself off from the ugliness. Just like, if you're going to be a real ally, you need to see some of this ugliness. How do you know he was cutting it off for himself? I don't know. That's the assumption. I see it. I assume something different and you assume something in other way.

So I think I can see both points. I can see both points. You're an in sync fan? Yes, and that's what I was going to ask you. Can he play in sync on the versus battle? See, this is the thing. To me, I think he should be able to. I think he should too.

But here's the thing, though. It's only a couple in sync songs that's going to snap on the versus battle. What would those be? Bye, bye, bye. Gone? Gone for sure. Girlfriend. That's it.

Not bye, bye, bye, bye. No, niggas not trying to hit that shit. No, gone and girlfriend. Those are the only two in sync songs he would play. Gone is going to hit. Great song. God must have to spend a little bit more time on you. It's not going to work.

Not going to work. In these versus battles, it's not about who has the biggest hits. It's about which songs resonate with the culture more. Girlfriend and Gone would work, but the rest of it's not going to work. Okay. So before I came on this pie, I interviewed Brandy. She's got a new album coming out July 31st.

I just want to put that out there. Love her. And I asked her about verses. And I'm trying to figure out why we haven't gotten a Brandy Monica situation. So we don't have to get too into that, but I just want to know who you would have. Fuck. Brandy Monica. You know this would be such a good battle.

And both of them are on. Brandy was like, I would definitely do it. And they don't really even like each other like that either. No, she's, well, okay, maybe that's something that you know. They had a physical altercation. Let's keep it game. She says that she tells a different story. Maybe they're in a better place right now.

They probably are. Brandy edges her. I'll go to Cindy as well. Brandy edges her. I don't know though, man. I don't know. I don't know, man. That's a good one.

See, if you don't know, that means it be a good versus battle. I don't know, man. The soldiers, make it happen. Let's push this more. We need some more women involved in the versus battle. Anyway, let's make this happen. Eric, about doing Jill Scott,

were the highest, the highest you won. Yeah, so come on. Let's make this happen. Put Mary J. Blige in there, too. Just Mary ain't got no competition. That's what I was supposed to say? Who would go against Mary. It would have to be Mary Carrey or somebody like that.

Mary, beat Mariah. No, no. I'm sorry, what? You're thinking of a different audience. Nope, you're doing different audiences. Mary J. Blige. Mariah Carey has 18, 19, number one hits. Mary J. Blige would beat Mariah Carey

in a versus battle. Because of the audience. That's the only reason. Because the audience. Because of how the songs are going to resonate with the culture. Resonate. Because of the audience.

Resonate. Mary J. Blige, like, yo, we was in Anguil. I get you. I agree with you. Like, we was in Anguilla and one of my homies got drunk when the music was playing.

And he looked around and he went, yo, I'll fight a nigger for Mary J. Blodge, bro. That's how much I love this music. Just out of nowhere. I promise you. Mary J. Blige Blige would

beat Mariah Carey. Hey, you know what? I'm putting that out. Ring her people, cut this one. I'm putting it out there right now that Mary J. Blige would swack Mariah Carey, respect to Mariah Carey, respect to Nick, respect to J. Dupre, respect to everybody. It's so, it's so not a fair argument. Swack Mariah Carey in a versus battle. Outside of that, no. And you're only basing that off of who the audience is. Because in a versus battle, you got to put Mary Jay against, like, Faith Evans or somebody who she'd watch. Right. You know what I mean? Wait, wait.

Because I'm just comparing people at the times. You say, Mariah Carey not black enough to be in a versus battle? You said that. I didn't say that? You said that. That's not what I said. I'm telling you all right now. Mary Jay, like.

I say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're saying that the audience is going to make. If you read between Van's words, Mariah Carey isn't black enough. Okay. Mariah, you got $500 million. That's going to have to be enough. Because the versus battle. Love Mariah Carey. Love Mariah Carey.

Fantastic. But she's not fucking married. So, listen, homeboy in mine. I'm going to say that. I did this man's podcast. We talked. And I've known him for a couple of years now to live Quilly. Oh.

What's happening? What's happening? What's happening? Because you're going to preface it with, that's my boy. Well, what the fuck is happening? It's not about prefacing it with this. It's just about the fact that this has been going on for a long time.

We have not addressed it on the podcast. We have to discuss it on the podcast. We have to do it. To Lip Qualley is, in case you guys don't know, is a rap hall of fame to me, one half of black star, one half of reflection eternal. Some amazing work. And has is now and has always been viewed by hip hop. as one of the most revolutionary, intelligent, and politically active voices

that the culture has had. That is what to live quali's complete career. Rachel's going to sleep. That's what Tilly's complete career has been based on. It is quite possible, almost certain, that in the last week, week and a half, that to live has injured his reputation to a large degree

with a lot of people and a lot of fans of the culture. A lot of people. So I'm giving you a cliff notes on what went on and what has happened. This is also called a compliment sandwich. Go ahead. Get to the meat of it. It's not a compliment sandwich. Yeah. Oh, it is because compliment.

Now let's get to the meat. No, this is the thing. And you're going to end up ending this with another compliment. Go ahead. No, I'm not. Because it's a thick sandwich. I'm not being honest with you. I'm not being honest with you.

I believe that when we are going to be critical or go back to my thing with Kanye West. Remember the thing with me and Kanye West? What did I say to Kanye West? I said you've earned everything that you've earned by being the genius that you are. Everything that you get, everything that you have, you've earned it. But, brother, I believe is that when we're talking to each other, we got a podcast, we got to talk about these things. But you don't lead into as if the negative. thing that the person did is the only thing that they've ever done. I didn't say that. You just

lead with the story. Well, no, to me, you leave with who he is. You lead with who he is. This is the story. Our audience don't know to live Quilly. So what they're going to think is this is some kind of angry, terrible person that has done all of these things just recently. But it's important to let people know that there's a reason why people care. This is what I would have done. I would have been like, hey guys, you've seen, you see, you see, you see, no, you've seen To Live Quili trending, Quali, to live Quali trending, I'd say,

there's a story that's out there right now. If you want to know more about him, just Wikipedia him. But let me tell you what he did start in July 6th. That's exactly what I would do. That's fair. That's fair, Rach. No, that's fair, Rachel.

No, that's fair. What to live coolly did was there was a tweet by a Twitter user named Maya Moody. And in this tweet, they were tweeting I guess in response to someone saying that rappers only date white ladies or something like that and they tweeted a list of rappers Jay Z. Pippoo's Chance rapper, Bumby, two chains, Gucci Maitia. Light skin women. White women and light skin women.

Well, that was what she said. So I'm assuming the first thing had to do specifically with white, but I'm not sure. L.L. Kudjah Kudjah, Ludacris, Paul, J. Cole, Kevin Gates, Will Smith, Big Boy, Killamite, Jail, Tbilikwley, Met the Man. all of those people are married to black ladies. Maya, Maya Moody came back and she said literally all of them are married to light-skinned women, but that's a conversation for another day. Since then, Talib Kali, at first it started, it turned into what those things simply turned into, which is back and forth on Twitter.

Tolib is a very fierce guy on Twitter. He spends days and days going at Nazis. and going at people from Aidos and just spending his time on it. The way I met him was because he was going back and forth, back and forth with a brother named Mosh Turey from Black Guns Matter, and I was trying to squash it between those two guys. But they have completely different politics. I have completely different politics from Mosh,

and so I could never get them on the same page, but nobody would ease up. And we, until they talked about that on his podcast. He took things too far with this sister, way too far. way too far, way too far. I actually, I hit him on text like last week, and I say, yo, bro, breathe. I'm like, just breathe, man.

Just breathe, take a breath. And the reason why I did that is because sometimes when we get caught up in whatever it is that we're caught up, especially as men, especially as men like himself who have made a career, battling different rappers or being outspoken, we don't know when to kind of step outside of ourselves and take stock of the harm that we're doing

and the power dynamic and the harm that we're doing. To Lip Kulikwilip, Tote came back and told me, I had to reaffir him to him that, yo, you know, this is me, I'm looking out for you, bro. Like, relax. He came back and he told me, can't relax. I'm being called this. I'm being called that because this argument

went to a bunch of different places, talked about whether or not he was faithful to his wife. It talked about allegations of his from things that had been done in the past that I guess I had never heard of or I didn't know about things that had been brought up. And he felt like these attacks were so vicious and so pointed and so directed towards him that he had no choice but every day to kind of be on this system. But there can never be a point, especially from powerful black men. never be a point to where we lose sight of what black women go through

to where even an argument or disagreement with one of them turns into victimization. And that's kind of where I felt like this went. I felt like at a certain point, the back and forth went too far. He stayed on it too long. And now they've actually, I think, taken away some of his Twitter posting privileges.

So it just ended up being... I thought he was leaving Twitter. No? Or maybe he left Twitter. I don't know. But it ended up being a very, very ugly situation. And it looked like a guy that's as powerful and as renowned as him, that he just could not take his hooks out of this young system.

Yeah. I mean, I wasn't fully aware of this until, like, you brought it to my attention and then I started looking at it. And I couldn't even read. Because what should be noticed is there were, hundreds and hundreds of times that he tweeted at this young woman over the course of two weeks. I got exhausted trying to catch up and read the whole story. And to me, I thought, we don't have to make this a damn section of the show. It's going to have to be a segment.

This is another example of black men disrespecting black women and just taking it too far. I mean, I don't even think that her original tweet was that problematic. And for some reason, it struck a nerve with him. And I don't know why. You know, I don't know if there was a little bit of truth in it. I don't know if maybe he's been told this a number of times. And he was like, you know what, this is it. This is enough. But the power and the platform that he has to take the time to respond to somebody who doesn't have that, all you did was fuel the fire. All you did was bring attention to it. If she had just tweeted this, it would have just gone into the ether and nobody would have paid any attention to it.

You made it a bigger issue. You tweeting at her hundreds of times over two weeks made it worse than it needed to be. All because she said that you date a light-skinned women and she threw you into a group of other rappers that do the same. I think that, okay, is it problematic that maybe she or other people started to say some things that weren't true and he felt the need to defend himself? Absolutely. But he honestly started this entire battle and drew attention to it. And my thing also is, how many times in the public eye do we not deal with criticism and trolls and judgment and untruths that are spewed toward us?

And you just ignore it and move on. If it gets to a certain level, then put out a statement and keep it moving. The problem is that you stoop down to a certain level when you could have just stayed where you are. And that's why I feel like he's so problematic. in this. And I don't understand why he spent so much energy and taking it to a level of disrespect towards this young black woman.

There was really no need to. Yeah, she alleges she wrote a long letter that she put out some time ago. She alleges that he has burner accounts that were doxing her and that she was receiving threats. All of those things are things that

I have no reason not to believe her about, but I can't say, at the same time I can't say that they're true. I don't know who has a burner account or who has other accounts that are working for them or anything like that. I looked into it, but there's no way to prove it definitively. What I do know is that when we have discourse with one another, and that's why I was attempting to do in all seriousness at the beginning of this, when we have discourse with one another,

even if the discourse is public or, excuse me, personal, if it's personal and public, if we love each other, right? If I'm looking at you and I'm like, yo, brother, I don't agree with you, but I don't think you're doing harm so I can still love you. If I'm looking at you as I'm saying, sister, I don't agree what you're saying, but you're not doing harm, so I love you. That has to come across in the way that we have discourse as well. That has to be, you have to be able to feel that.

And I think in this situation, he lost that. And to be honest with you, I think a lot of people watching it felt the exact same way. And they were very vocal about it. So there were a lot more people that got caught up into this because there were a lot of people on Twitter trying to get him to take his foot off the gas pedal, trying to get him to be a little bit more expensively. He said no. Now, when I talked to him about it,

he said straight up, and he will say straight up, that he felt like he was being attacked. And any time he felt like he felt like he was being attacked, it feels like he has the right whether the person is man, woman, black, white, to defend himself however viciously or aggressively against personal,

attacks and what he felt like were attacks on his family as he as he feels the need to. So, I mean, look, all I'm saying is at a certain point, you know, I think there's a teachable lesson in here, especially right now, is whatever the case is, if it involves black women, especially people are just, they're not standing up for what seems like to be harsh treatment, victimization, bullying, or roughing up of black ladies. And that's the way it should have always been. It's a shame that that's just happening now.

So, look, man, I'm going to get that to live again. I let that cool off for a little while. I'm going to right now publicly invite him, because I've done his podcast, publicly invite him to come on the podcast, discuss what was wrong and what was going on, but not just to live, but Maya. Yeah, come on. Like either one of them.

Maybe. I want to know how it took a turn. Maybe both of them. Yeah. I need to understand where the turn happened. I know the original tweet, but where did it get to the point where there were attacks against his family?

Not on either side when it comes to that. I just want to understand it in depth how it went from zero to 100. Well, well, he feels like our attacks on his family is like she, she supposedly, she says in the letter, she supposedly, you know, talked about his wife specifically. And it did get to a problem. point to where it was kind of like a Drake versus push a team muscling in battle where it was like, yo, you do this with this person and have you been a good, well, all of that stuff.

So that's way beyond the point. The point really is, is that there is no way that that tweet should have ever resulted in this much animus. Exactly. That's exactly how I feel. I mean, that's really all you need to say and you can put a period behind it. It should have never come to this. And I guess I defer more to, to live,

that he should have handled it in a better way. Yeah, man. Sad, like, I'm telling you, it's just, you know, we, there's this thing that my dad had, that my dad coined a long time ago. We've talked about it before on past podcast. It's something that a lot of men suffer from, and I'm one of the worst sufferers of it.

One of the worst sufferers of it. It's called Dickhead Momentum. Have we ever discussed this? No, but they see it on every podcast. Are they here? Dickhead momentum is the moment in an argument or a fight that you realize that you are wrong or that you have taken things too far

and you choose to continue to stand in it anyway. Dickhead momentum. Like, are you in back and forth? your girl. You say a date. She says a date. You go, no, I told the fucking cable man to come on the 17th. She was like, no, it was the 18th. You know I got to work. Why would I tell him the baby, I'm telling you. And then she says, she shows you the right date. You have a choice in that moment. One choice is to be like, to do the hardest thing in the world, be like, no, I'm wild. I'm taking it too far. Baby, you're right. The other one is to be like, why do I fucking have to be

talking to the cable man anyway. I work 19 hours a day. You can't just do that one thing for me. We almost always picked the ladder. Pick the head on this. But, you know, and I don't know who had necessarily had it in this case. But I do know that long... Well, that's why they need to come on and talk about it.

Right. Long before we got to where we were, I feel like to live should have took his foot off the gas a long time ago. You got better things to do. Yeah. And so should she, honestly. But we talked about a new Black Star album coming. Still excited for it.

Now. No, we ain't, but see y'all. And there it is. The compliment sandwich. There it was. No. No. It's wrong. There it is.

It's wrong. I'm just trying to navigate my life. I know. I got you. I got you. The toughest thing is trying to navigate your life while. This is, and this is something I'm running into left and right. I'm trying to navigate my life.

as an ally and at the same time not be pressured to throw people away wholesale. Nobody's asking you to throw people away. I know, I know, I know, I know people aren't. But in this time right now, it's a difficult thing to do because I really do want people to be able to take stock of the wrong and the harm that they are doing and try to come back and, you know, reconcile it. What do you think about Michael Jackson? What about Michael Jackson?

What happened? Huh? What? What happened? Just bring that man up. That's crazy. That's crazy. Okay, that's crazy, though.

Rachel, what's your COVID status right now? You're negative or positive? I assume it's negative. You don't know, though. How do you take a test? I have taken several tests. Oh. Yeah, I take the test.

I've been told they're not as easy to get as they were before. Maybe not. But I'm right here. You do someone in there. thing you go to, who knows? We don't know. We don't know who's negative. Everybody's not able. I don't have a hookup that you have, but what we do know is that Major League Baseball is very close to having a significant COVID outbreak because one team has been knocked out of the park by COVID. That is the Miami

Marlins, who have had 14 members, players and coaches, test positive for COVID-19. There was supposed to be a game that was happening later on today. This game has been postponed. They also postponed another game because one of the teams that was going to play, it was the Yankees and Phillies game, the Phillies, I guess, had used the visiting dugout at Marlins Park Stadium, whatever, Orange Field. They got down there in Florida. And there's some fear that maybe the Phillies could have been contaminated or contaminated, could have been exposed to COVID as well.

So I guess they all got to get tested. I guess the Yankees got to get tested. Then you got to decide whether or not they're going to play this. baseball game. There's no bubble. We know that the NBA is down there in a bubble in Orlando. There's no bubble for Major League Baseball. These motherfuckers just going home and coming to the park and playing baseball. So wasn't this inevitable? I don't understand. This is what's wrong with our country. So a couple of things with this. One, it's very sad. People were so happy. Baseball was back. I don't even think that they really paid attention to the protocols that were in place for baseball players.

they were just happy to have it back. Well, here you go. I mean, sports is supposed to be such a distraction from everything that's happening right now in the world, and now COVID is infiltrating baseball, and it's a harsh reality that this disease is not going anywhere. Another thing. One thing is for sure that you can always depend on

is that people will disappoint you every single time. They will let you down. And that's what baseball has done. Baseball hasn't done a bubble like Major League Soccer and the National Basketball Association and women have done. They have left it into the hands of these organizations and players.

So what do you think is going to happen? And of all places, Miami. And another part to that story is that Miami, correct me if I'm wrong, they knew that they had players that tested positive, not 14 at that point, but they knew that they had tested positive

and they still decided to play in a game. That's nuts. And that is where we are right now. So that's what you're dealing with right here. The fact that people knew that they were positive, a team did, and still decided to play, and not only put their players in jeopardy,

but also decided to put another team in jeopardy. And this is very telling us to what is happening right now in our society and what is to come. Football. We're approaching August. Normally at this time, we'd be getting, actually training camp would be going on right now, We're preparing for

discrimmages, and then we'd be preparing for the season. This is very telling. Football does not have a bubble. Collegiate teams do not have a bubble for their ball sports. They are watching this right now and baseball is setting a precedent.

I'm telling you guys right now we're not going to have football. Because the moment that you have COVID cases, you have to shut everything down. Dr. Fauci has come out and said, the only way professional sports can work or even collegiate is if there is a bubble. Some leagues took that to heart,

and some didn't. And the ones that didn't, we're seeing the fallout for it now. But I also think it's bigger than sports. It's very sad that this is basically what our everyday lives are going to be. It's not just about baseball. It's not just about sports in general. This goes for school. You're watching what's happening in baseball. How do you control this in school? You kids go home. They do, God knows what, whether it's in the home or outside of the home, and then they come back to school. and they can contract this disease and spread it to teachers to other students who go back and spread it into their homes. Work life, going into an office, the exact same thing. This is our life right now.

And baseball is an example and is setting a precedent to how things are going to be until we get a vaccination and we get things under control. And it's truly a sad thing because it was all good just a week ago, van. It was. It was open the night. Everybody was excited. It was so bizarre to watch actual. sports happening on ESPN. It comforted me for some reason.

2020 is just a year of zero comfort. Oh. For whatever reason, we're supposed to be uncomfortable this year. We're walking around with uncomfortable shit on our faces. We're like, we're surrounded by death and dysfunction and at ease and loneliness

and anger. And we've done. don't even have brunches to get it off our chest. And you wonder why I bring a glass of wine to every podcast. You know what I'm saying? All it is going on and they took our mimosis. So for some reason, we're just supposed to be uncomfortable. The minute that I'm watching people play baseball and I start to go, wow, comfortable normalcy. Now, the universe snatches me right back into the moment and goes, keep your eyes.

eye on the ball. So I'm not sure what the message is. But I do know one message that should be getting in the Major League Baseball is that coronavirus is serious. COVID-19 is not bullshitting. And if you're going to do this and you're going to make things safe, you have to do more than outlawing high fives and sunflower seats. Like that's not going to work.

They have to figure something else out. I don't know how they're going to get this figured out, but I do know that I saw something earlier today that said, there are no plans to stop the entire league like what the NBA did in mid-March. They said, no, these games are going to go on. They weren't expecting to not have an outbreak at some point. So I guess there are protocols and contingency plans.

No, there aren't. Based around it, I guess there are. Postponing games, which is what's happening right now with the Yankees game. That's what they're going to do. They're just going to postpone games until there's another outbreak. And then you postpone that game. to the point where you keep postponing games and there's nobody to play.

Right. Well, we'll see. We'll see. Hopeful that sports can return in some sort of way, but also if they don't, who cares? At this point, if they don't, who cares? It's nice that the NBA is having success. We didn't even talk about Lou Williams going to Magic City for the lemon pepper wings.

I died when I heard people talking about this. They're like, apparently he went for some wings. Everybody knows strip clubs. have the best wings. They got the best wings. That's that period. They got the best music and they got the best wings. Period.

And sometimes you like the wings because you don't know when you eat the wings, there could just be just a little titty juice in them. Well, you just ruined it for me. Well, I'm saying just every time you take a bite. I'm not wanting titty sweat on my wings. Every time you take a bite of strip club food, you're wondering. No. Is there just a little bit of ass juice?

That's called wishful thinking. A little ass juice. No, for all those who have never had food at the strip club, it doesn't even get near the strippers. You don't know that. Unless you have, unless you have them already at your table when you're eating it. I bet you can charge, you bet you can charge Escher for that. Strippers ain't making the food, van. Strippers ain't making the food.

I bet you could get, you could put, you could get fries with truffle ass juice. So like hot sauce. Like, like, yeah. Let me get a side. You know how you get the, no, you put it right on the fries. you know, you get the truffle, truffle oil. You could get truffle ass oil on your fly. It tastes a good bit.

Anyway, all right. So, we are done. Do you realize the progression of this episode to go? We start on such a high. Like, we start up here and then we get down here. Like, we ended on, like, to live quality level. You know what I'm saying? We took it down to that notch.

Whoa. Nobody's ever going to come on our show. I'm not, no, I'm telling you, that man will get on your ass, man. No, how he's ever going to come on a show. You're going to get the smoke. You don't do that brother like that, man. I'm not taking away from what he's done. I understand the music.

I understand. I understand what he represents. But I'm talking about him in the now. Sorry, it is what it is. All right. And I actually respect him for his music a lot in what he brings to the table and how he's like, if I was banking my success off of being played on the radio, I'd have a daytime job. get all of that. I love a conscious rapper. I get it. I'm talking about the now. Wow.

We love that. You come on the show. Oh, yeah, right. We are out of here, Thought Warriors. Take the thinking caps off, but do not stop thinking. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lindsay. Until next time.