Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Gendered Problems and Decentering Men With Joy Taylor! Plus, Thoughts on Hulk Hogan. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

Rachel and Van start the show by talking about the passing of the infamous Hulk Hogan and the complexity of his legacy. Then, the host of Two Personal, Joy Taylor, joins us to talk about processing the surprise cancellation of her show, how she was treated in comparison to her male counterparts, and her opinion of men. 00:00 - Welcome! 00:37 - Hulk Hogan’s passing 03:56 - Joy Taylor joins us 38:57 - Feelings toward Fox 48:58 - Will the dam break? 57:48 - Vulnerably in certain spaces 1:02:18 - Opinion on men 1:56:41 - What does Joy want to build? 2:18:39 - Thanks for watching! Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Joy Taylor Producers: Donnie Beacham and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What's up? How are learnings on? Is Ivan Lathan Jr.? And it's me, Rachel Lenton. Joy Taylor is here, but she's not involved in this part of the show. We have an interview with Joy coming up, but she talks about how much she loves me.

It's going to be very much. I got to say one thing, though. Can I not be involved with this part of the show either? You don't want to be involved in this? Go ahead. As we were doing this, we had a great conversation with Joy. It's very wide-ranging. It's a long conversation.

We're going to get to that in a second. But as we were coming on to do the podcast, something happened. We don't have anything Trump and Epstein for you. There'll be more on that. Probably next Tuesday. But Hulk Hogan died. Hoke Hogan died. Hogan passed away.

871. I think it was a heart attack. I do have to say something about Hulk Hogan. Rachel, you don't want to say anything about Hokeh. I don't feel anything. I mean, yes, I grew up on wrestling. But not Hulk Hogan. We talked about this.

My dad was really big on wrestling. The Rick Flair, the dusty roads, the stings. Joy, any Holkogen memories? Thunderlips. Yeah, you know, I didn't see the movie. But when I think of Hulk Hogan, I think of one thing. You know, I'm not a movie person. Joy.

I've seen the first one. Okay. Just because I'm not going to do anything, but get angry. There's a lot of things happening. This is what I'll say about Hulk Hogan. And I mean this very sincerely. There's a term that people use. The term is a life well lived.

And what that allows you to do is when somebody passes away to contextualize their life as a life well-lived in a sense. And you normally say that when people have had a positive effect on their community, their family, and their friends. It angers me that I cannot say that about Hulk Hogan. You cannot say a life well-lived. Hulk Hogan was a hero to me as a child. Hero. You watch wrestling in the wrestling boom of the golden age of the WWF in the 1980s. And he was a larger than life figure.

He was a superhero. You hear the theme, Real American. You know the hoaxers coming down the aisle. He's going to rip the shirt. You're going to do this. All of that stuff. But as you got older, you started to learn some truths. Hulk Hogan was at one point in his life, at least, from what we heard on that tape of

virulent racist. he was consistently a selfish, self-centered performer as a wrestler. He was someone who tried to undermine the union of professional wrestlers. It's a story that came out in the Vince McMahon documentary that just came out that the wrestlers were thinking of unionizing. Wrestling is a grueling, a grueling, taxing profession. And Hulk got wind of it, and he went and told Vince McMahon on the rest of the wrestlers because Hulk Hogan was a company man. The more I learned about him, the more I realized

that Hulk Hogan's life was not a life well lived. I'm sure that there are people who love him. I'm sure that the wrestling community will mourn. But I'm mad at him even more now that I can't remember him fondly. And this is a reminder to people that as you are living your life from day to day, no matter what you accomplish,

no matter what you are able to accrue, no matter what type of person you are as far as how you're lauded or thought of, that one day people will remember you for how you treated them. They will remember you for the space that you took up inside of their life. They will remember you for the way you looked at the rest of humanity. And I can hope for you guys

that when you die, people say that your life was well lived because Holgolens wasn't. All right, let's get to the show. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. If you guys see there, Joy Taylor is holding the dog. Brownie's here. Joy Taylor is here on higher learning. Brownie's here as well. Brownie, a regular on the podcast. Rachel has brought the dog to the interview.

It's my child. It's fantastic. Joy, what's up? What's up? I'm so excited to be here. We are so happy to have you. What took me so long? Outrageous.

Yes. is we're we're pals of yours but you have gone on an unparalleled podcast run and you are finishing up with higher learning yeah yeah this is true but I mean I needed an invite I'm not going to invite myself on the show

why the podcast run it wasn't really intentional I mean people have been asking to talk and yeah that's what I do I talk So is this your first interview since Fox has made their announcement about the show? No.

This will, well, I don't, depends on when this is posting. Tomorrow. Okay, then yes. This isn't the first interview I've done. It's the first interview I've done since the second announcement about Barstle. Yes. Oh, about. So there's been two big Fox announcements.

One has been the fact that Fox, see? He's happy. Amazing. Amazing. Is that picking up on the microphone? Do you want me to put him down? No, it's fine. It's fine. Brian.

He's pretending to be. I'm not. The show has... Sorry, he has a collapsed trache. He's getting activated. Has a potential that it could get to and we're always going to be right under it. Absolutely incredible. So Fox announced that it was clearing.

old slate of shows, and then it added Barstool. I'm sure you have thoughts on both. First of all, from the fact that your show and the facility and some of the other shows were canceled by Fox or not renewed, what were your thoughts on that?

I mean, it wasn't entirely surprising, but I mean, I've been in the business for almost 20 years now, so these things happen. I was caught off. scarred. But there's changes with the network every single year. I think the lineup has honestly been different over there every single year that I've been there. So yeah, I mean, I think everyone's

waiting for some big emotional reaction for me. I would assume if anyone follows me at this point, that's not really my style, much more of a slow kill. But, you know, I don't, I'm still processing everything that's happened. I don't even honestly know. I was saying yesterday that I was saying yesterday that I haven't really even felt like I haven't been there because I was going to be off a lot this month anyway. We had a lot of dark days and I'm going on vacation. So I haven't really felt the breakup and the normalcy of being in the studio every day yet. So maybe when that happens, I'll have a different emotional reaction. But I'm also not somebody that has really deep attachments to like corporations or places.

It's more to experiences, obviously, the people that I work. worked with there and, you know, developed great friendships with and had, you know, the honor of working with really talented people and the other people behind the scenes that were let go. That's more where my thoughts immediately went. Because, you know, we talk about this in sports all the time when coaches get fired, that people immediately only talk about like the head coach, but there's an entire staff of people that get let go as well. So, yeah, I mean, it's their network.

It's they have a right to make changes. whenever they want to. And my time there wasn't going to be infinite. So, yeah, I don't know that I have a really, like, big thing to say about it. But do you feel like, well, one, I know you're still processing your emotions. Yeah. But the immediate question I think of is, how are you doing? Just period.

Because it's been a crazy 2025. And then the second part is, do you feel? feel like you have to be a certain way? Like, do you feel like you have to be hard or that you can't express your emotions? I think that the type of person that I am, I like to wait until I've decided how I feel about something to share. And everyone is different in that way. Like, some people like to talk about it right away, get their emotions out. They have thoughts. They have anger.

And I have all of those things. But what I don't like is saying things that I regret and then having to clean it up later because people always remember the first thing that you say about something. And then that becomes the story. And I think it also does a disservice to my career. I think it does a disservice to what I did at FS1. in nine years at a national network and being one of the only women in the opinion space

to just blow up about it. And also, like, it's not, I'm not trying to, you know, diminish it, but this is the business. Like, shows get canceled all the time for a variety of reasons. And if it was just my show, then that would be a different conversation. but there were three shows canceled. So it's obvious that the network wanted to go in a different direction and we'll all end up being fine.

Do you think that the network would have gone in that direction if not for the lawsuit and other things that happened this year? No, I don't think it had anything. I'm not, I don't think. It absolutely had nothing to do with the lawsuit. Oh, nothing to do with it? It absolutely had nothing to do with the lawsuit. So what do you think the reason was that they pivoted

because the bar stool thing is a gigantic pivot in my opinion. Well, it is a gigantic pivot, which means it was not hatched overnight. They had to be thinking about it for a while. Yeah. And I have no,

that is well above my pay grade. So I have no inside information as to how that went down except for my brain and working in the business and knowing how long it takes to put those deals together. That did not happen overnight.

But also, it had nothing to do with the lawsuit. two other shows were canceled. So if it was just my show, then perhaps that could be the story. But the other shows had nothing to do with the lawsuit. I am the only person that had anything to do with the lawsuit. And I am telling you, it had nothing to do with the lawsuit. So let's talk about that because you're right.

Three shows were canceled. But the story seems to be you and your show are canceled. How does that make you feel seeing headlocked? lines that were directed towards you or that you were the face of every social media pose, every article, as opposed to there were multiple people who lost their hosting positions and their shows. Well, I think I look best on the graphic. From an aesthetic?

From an aesthetic. You're the highest standpoint. I'm the best looking, obviously. And I think that goes without debate. But, you know, from the gossipy places, I get it. We all work in this business. So I get that part of it. The more established, respected reporters, it's disappointing because you're no different.

You're clickbait. Because it's not the story. The story actually is that a massive network is pivoting in a very distinct direction. and changing the format and formula for their programming. So if you're reporting on media, that's actually a very big, interesting story. I think it changes the landscape of the business in a very dramatic way. From a business standpoint,

it could make a lot of sense when you're talking about efficiency and saving money. But that's what real reporters and real journalists are supposed to be writing about. again, the suit had nothing to do with it and I think that to me is obvious from the story. Like, the story was not about me.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so that part, that part is frustrating because I expect more from journalists, but I guess at this point, where are the real journalists anymore? I'm trying to pull it apart and DTMZ my mind.

Because I don't know that I agree with that. Okay. I think that normally, let's say that this were, like let's take the lawsuit and everything out of it. Let's say that this were, I don't know, it's CBS Good Morning or whatever.

And they were removing a lot of their people and Gail King was one of them. I think the story there for a lot of people would be the fact that Gail King is no longer. on the show because she's become something that's kind of bigger than the show. And for whatever reason, the story that came out of all of the shakeups at Fox at the beginning of it was kind of you were the flashpoint for that. So I think people were waiting for some sort of resolution to it because it was,

they were, I know you. So I know everything that was happening for you and behind the scenes of that. But I think most people were waiting. to see if it was just going to be business as usual at Fox after everything happened. And they looked at that decision by the network as closing the loop on a gigantic story. So I think a lot of people that probably chase that story probably went, oh, this is closure to the entire Joy Taylor thing that happened at the beginning of the year. Would a breakfast ball have to do with it?

Breakfast ball, unfortunately, in that situation, was not The story. No, no, no. The story I get. Yeah. And the headlines I get. Right. All of that, I'm in agreement with you on.

Like. My point is, you know, they're not naming these shows right. My point is. The facility. My point is. It was actually a cool show. For the initial story. Yes, obviously.

And there's also a side note. Don't let me forget it because my brain's not working yet. For the initial story, yeah. Yeah, I'd be the headline. Yeah. But it isn't the story. Three shows were canceled. And now that we know the announcement of the pivot,

it's only logical that that is what the story was about, that the network is going in a massively different direction for their programming and who they're bringing in and their affiliate. It's very obvious to me that it has nothing to do with the suit, but also it has nothing to do with the suit. What do you think? Also, the other part, before I forget, what I find remarkable about the headlines

and the coverage of it is that every day I hear how women don't belong in sports and that we don't really have a footprint in sports. We're not really relevant. Like we're like begging for a seat at the table. and three shows some pretty important people got canceled

and I am the biggest story the only woman at the network not a former player not a Hall of Famer didn't win a championship and yet it's me how interesting

you think that there's some sexism baked into that no I actually think I don't want to hear about how irrelevant we are. Well, scandal is always relevant. But then you're reducing,

and I think that that's the point that she's making, right? So it's not just scandal as to why, for example, like you gave the, you talked about CBS in the morning. Yeah. And he said, Gale would be, it's not just because Gail's bigger

than the show, it's because Gell is the biggest name and she's relevant. What Joy is saying, not putting words into your mouth, but it's not scandal, it's that it's her career, and it's how relevant she is,

which is why she's the biggest name. Oh, and her beauty. Well, yeah, I mean, it's just like, I definitely look better on the graphics, you know. If you want engagement. And I think that that's the point is, and it was kind of a question I had between everything that's happened in 2025

is do you feel like all the gossip and the scandal has undermined your career? I mean, before we started this, or maybe you just say when we started, you have 20 years of experience. Like, you didn't just pause. hop up and randomly have this happen for you, you've put in the work, which is why I think it shows that your relevancy in being a talking head in sports, which is also why you were the face of it.

Right. Yeah, I mean, of course it has, because I'm being reduced to a scandal. And I'm not, you know, again, I'm not unaware of how these things work. Being in the business as long as I have, that's what happens. And until you are further enough aware, away from it and rewrites the story in some ways. That's what it's going to be. But, yeah, of course it's frustrating

to have done all that work and put in all those hours and sacrifice time with your family and miss weddings and birthdays. And, you know, I've lived in L.A. for the last nine years. My entire family's on the East Coast. Like, I've missed so many things.

you know, for something that I wanted to do, I'm not a victim, but the point is like, it required more work from me than it did from everyone else. I was pressured to not take time off, was, you know, as we all were, the show's going to collapse,

the network's going to collapse if you're not there, all those things, to accomplish what I accomplished in the business, and now it's just because of what's being said, which is, you know, I'm not the first person that's happened to. I won't be the last.

And I feel like, you know, there's enough people in the business that know me that know that that's not the case, but that part will probably never be a race, which is the thing I think that frustrates me from a personal standpoint the most because years and years, of work being reduced to that and then not being able to ever erase that is frustrating.

Yeah. I think people need to hear that because it speaks to the nature of the business, not just in the sports business, but just in corporate world, period. You, that is something that will most likely always be attached to your name, whereas a man can just pick up, move on, or maybe even get a pat on the back. Well, that's bullshit. I don't. I don't think so. There are certain things about it.

So do you think that Matt Lauer or Charlie Rose? Matt Lowers is, you're giving an outrageous example. Yeah, I do want to say, I do want to say, I just would like to. What happens is not Matt Lauer. Yeah, that's extreme. I am also being compared to these outrageous, awful, horrific situations and I need everyone to go scoop their smooth brains off the floor.

I love when she says smooth. Carve some grooves in it and be serious. Okay. So this is what I would say. There are a lot of men that have been involved in a lot of scandals, right? Correct. And they've over... But let's contextualize what they have been involved in scandals for.

Let's contextualize what they've been involved in scandals for. But let's be for real. The reality is that, like, there are very few, very few men. particularly now, in the old days all the time. I mean, Sean Connery went on Barbara Walters and said that you should be able to smack your wife around, right? But there are very few high-profile men that have been involved and caught up into this type of stuff. And then have, like, recently and have received a pat on the back and just been able to move on from it. Right.

But, Van, what were they accused of? What happened? Well, okay. So if we're talking about the fact that maybe the way people view you is unfair, That's one thing. No, it is, it is, it is not unfair. Okay. It is beyond reality.

Beyond reality. What was Matt Lauer accused of? He was accused of sexually harassing someone that he, that worked for him. It wasn't someone. There were multiple. Well, with him, it was, it was more specifically, what, all of these guys are serial predators that I'm not defending it. Well, that's why you can't make the comparison.

No, no, no, no, no. There was a, if I'm being all the way real here, there was a, workplace lawsuit that was brought by someone that you worked with that accused you of workplace discrimination and malfeasance and all of that stuff. Now, I know that that's all bullshit. But what I'm saying is that if we are going to, if we're going to say that a woman accused of that is going to be held to the standard for the rest of her life and a man won't, that's not true. Like, I mean, that's just not, that's just not how, that's not true. I'm just waiting for you to give me an example that's on the same level.

That's why it's like, when you say Matt Lauer, I'm like, no, absolutely not. You can't, you can't, I'm waiting for you to name me the man who it's been attached to. He's done or been accused of something one time and it's been attached to his entire career. Okay. So then, I mean, when you say one, it hasn't progressed or like been elevated? What, yeah. So one accusation or because I kind of feel like I'm. all of them

like it the one way for you to have your career affected now is to have an allegation of me to or workplace should I have killed someone

I feel like I probably should have just on my most darkest impulses I'm just trying to make sure that we don't we don't drift into the realm of hyperbole

like so we have drifted into the realm of hyperbole okay let me ask you a question all the things things that Lizzo was accused of. Has it followed Lizzo? Absolutely. Are you kidding?

I had a conversation about Lizzo last night. So you think Lizzo is where Lizzo was before the allegations? I don't think that Lizzo... We didn't even talk about Lizzo. I was at a concert Lizzo came out to with Siza. Nobody cared. I don't think that... Oh, my God. Brownie has destroyed me.

Yeah, of course. I don't think that Lizzo was looked at as an abuser. I don't. Be so for real. Be so for real. I... Maybe they don't use the word abuser, but they definitely... What happened? The accusations definitely follow her. They might not title her an abuser.

I had a conversation about Lizzo last night at the salon. Right. So I think the conversations that, and I'll be honest with you, because I don't look at Lizzo as an abuser, I don't. I think the conversations that you would have with Lizzo about. You and I have talked about Lizzo many. Yeah. I think the conversations that you would have from Lizzo, from men,

are from men who are toxicly trying to say, hey, they're also women abusers too. Just look at Lizzo. But I don't think in any way, and going back to it before we drift into a tangent that we can't rescue ourselves from, I just don't think it's true that in this situation, those types of allegations could be leveled against someone. And then like you could just then say it's a smack on the back and you're going to be okay. I think to ignore that is to ignore literally what the patriarchy is. And this is not me drifting.

men have been excused, have been tolerated, have been allowed to do certain things, not just in the workplace, just period in society. So to equate what women go through versus men or that men aren't treated a different way, literally ignores everything. I'm not saying they aren't. I'm saying that recently, recently. I'm still waiting for the example. I want an example of a guy who, like, recently.

I can't think of a, like a one-time accusation. I can't think of it. It's always been multiple because the first thing that comes to mind is Shannon Sharp for me. There are multiple incidents with him. But the reality with Shannon Sharp is the reason why Shannon Sharp is not, was it looked at in the past,

the way he has looked at now, is because this issue came out during that time where people are more sensitive about it. And his celebrity is also up. Shannon Sharp is actually a perfect example of that because we, found out that there were more instances of Shannon Sharp and his

Or we paid attention to them. No, no, no. Because they were out there. No, no. We've, but a lot of people found out. But in this situation, ESPN goes, and it'll be interesting to see what happens to him as, since the lawsuit has been, obviously there was a settlement or whatever flimsily adjudicated in whatever way that it was. But ESPN went, you know what, that's too much. Like, that's too much. And in the past, networks hadn't done that. They hadn't They hadn't done that, though, because he wasn't as famous. And also, it was a different time where people didn't take.

I think you proved my point. But I mean, let's get back to Joy. No, I mean, I'm being for real. I'm like, I'm saying right now, this was a, okay, let's be honest. Joy, your situation, was it much more publicized and a bigger deal than anything that had happened with Shan Sharpe in the past? Was it more talked about? Was it more viral? Was it more all of that?

Then his past? Yes. Yeah. Right. This one with Shannon Sharp wasn't. It was something that everyone knew about, that everyone had talked about. So if you see Shannon Sharp on your television now, you see guy who maybe probably had an improper relationship with a woman. And then the network, the sponsors, everybody is forced to come to terms with that.

Now, in the past, that guy would not have suffered. But now is different. But the now also includes the past stuff. Jonathan Majors. Like you could go like you could you could you could go on. It's different. It's not to. I cannot comment on ongoing legal

I cannot comment on ongoing legal matters. When I can, I'll have to come back to the podcast. Okay. Okay. All right. If I'm welcome back. You're always going to be. Brownie has to be here.

What do you think? about the pivot that Fox the FS1 made? I think it's interesting because I am a student of the business

and I think that linear television is in an interesting place right now, particularly sports television because sports are, as we know, ascending and growing

at an exponential rate because it's the last thing that we watch live besides news on television. And so there is more of a demand for coverage, for media, for access, from fans, from sponsors. And in a world where companies are trying to always, of course, cut costs and, you know, increase growth, I find it interesting the crossover that linear television is making with the digital space. Pat McAfee.

Right. So from that perspective, it makes sense because it's very difficult for linear television to program for digital audiences. And more and more, we are becoming a digital audience. Do you think that

because that evolution or whatever transition is happening, that these networks will get wider? Because when you see these gigantic audiences that come from these digital shows, it's bro. It's Pat McAfee.

Yeah. It's the bar of stool stuff. If you have like a gigantic audience in that space, it's always going to be super broly, like directly on the nose type of stuff. Yeah. There is a certain way of viewing the pivot that the network made was that they actually got rid of a lot of people who were black and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, ladies, and they brought in lady, the whitest,

broiest, does that signal are the networks pulling things a little bit back closer to the vest? Taking less chances on those types of faces. Well, maybe, but in the end, results

are all that matters. So if people watch that, then that's a good move for them. Like, as a business, businesswoman, that is how I look at it. You don't believe in diversity for diversity's sake. No, I absolutely do.

But in this current climate, we have platforms. So when we didn't have platforms, that's bullshit. But we have the show. We have YouTube. We have Twitch. We have all kinds of streamers entering into the sport space that are incredibly diverse and have much deeper pockets. So I'm not really that worried about it.

If we get into a time and space where we are gay kept from having voices, then I think it's a cause for concern. But you don't have to watch any of those shows. You don't have to watch this show. We have a choice on where we can consume what we want to consume. And so from that perspective, like, it obviously looks a certain way, but as a consumer, you have almost unlimited options

for your content in the sports space. Do you think that the consumer bears some responsibility for the faces that are on their TV? Because I say this all the time. This is what I mean. I say this all the time. Like, we had had a conversation about a movie back in the day. It was like the Buzz Light Year movie or whatever.

I've said this on this podcast and on another podcast. And I'm like, there was a lesbian kiss in the movie. and the people did not go see the movie. The movie failed in the first week. And I was like, you know what? If you guys want to see more diversity on the screen, you need to go support the shit. You have to do it because Disney is a corporation

and they are not going to put it in there if they are going to both get headlines from people in Middle America who don't like it and then also get their asses kicked at the box office from a financial standpoint. So if you guys want black, female-led stuff, you have got to support it because the network,

and the corporations aren't going to do it because of altruism. What do you think about that? So I think like sinners was a great example of the success that you can have when people support things. So yeah, I do think that audiences play a role. Eyeballs, viewership, audience retention is it directly translates to dollars in the media business. Right? That's why they put my face on the headlines. I'm popping like that.

So. Sneak is something else. If you want to see certain things, then you have to support certain things. Yeah, for sure. And I also think, like, I have this conversation a lot when I'm bitching about diversity and I'm bitching about opportunities and things like that. It's like, we forget there are a lot of white people. Yeah.

There's so many of them. Right. And, like, they. like they watch white so you know I mean I I'm in no way being an apologist

for the the you know Custer's last stand that we're going through right now which I believe is like the white man's you know last effort to

this is the white man's last effort right now they're giving it all they're giving it a whole go they're having a hard time right now we talk about it all the time do you but don't you think that it's kind of a risk even what

FS1 is doing because bar stools is proven in their space. Television, you actually have no idea. That's why what you brought with is interesting about. I do think it's interesting, but that's why I think it's interesting because if it works, one, that is in a massive momentum for people in the digital space to build their platforms because it can, if you are successful,

lead to massive checks and growth. Like there's a there's a there's a there's a model for scale now, um, into the linear space that is legitimate. So we've already seen it at ESPN. So I mean, I, I think it's interesting. I don't, and again, like what the audience wants, they're going to watch.

That's just how it goes. Now, networks play a massive role in this. Like marketing, crossover marketing, support, social support, ads, all of those things. Like, it's not solely. the talent's responsibility to make a show successful. Like, that is not how it works. So I'm not putting it solely on the consumer and I'm not putting it solely on the talent.

There is a, there's pillars to making content successful, especially on the linear level. But I just, I think it's interesting. Like the business is changing a lot. It's gone through massive changes just in the last, I'll say, six years because prior to COVID, this was not even a conversation.

because the linear space was not interested in what I would call raw contents. Like we would not have guests on the show if they were not in studio. And if they weren't in studio, they had to have the highest quality camera with the stream that was like multiple times tested. And it just wasn't even a conversation to like video in a guest. Now, it's not even a thought. We don't care. As a consumer, we don't care because we got used to it during COVID. And then the network stops caring because we got used to it during COVID. And now the entire industry has changed. And what I pay attention to most, which is why I started my podcast at Fox years ago, the maybe I'm crazy podcast, was what are children doing? Because when I was coming into the business, I started in radio. It was 2,000. Then none of this existed, as you guys know. But I saw the pivot, and I always wanted to be a personality.

I saw the pivot from having to be in front of your television to get highlights, to getting it on the computer, getting it on your phone. And now we want to know what people think about what happens, right, in news and television. Now here we are. That's the world. We can get the news at any time. We immediately want to know what is our favorite pundit think about the news, feel about the news. What should I feel about the news?

what is some color to this news. Similarly, a new revolution is happening with young people where they're on their phones. They're on their computers. They're on their iPads. Their habit is not to watch television. Their habit is to be on their phone. Their habit is the digital space. They're not going to grow up and watch television because they don't do that now.

We watch television because that was our habit as children. So I just think the pivot that's happening with linear, with streaming, with all of this will be really interesting. I know I'm like inside baseball right now and boring shit out of you. But like that's how I feel about it. No, I get it because that's essentially the bet that they're making. Right.

The bet that they're making is that people that watch Dave or Pat or any of those people on social media or on YouTube, whatever, that they'll be interested to see what happens when they are on Big Noon kickoff or, you know. And they have audiences. And they have audiences. And it sort of worked at ESPN. Well, it, you know, at first,

it wasn't a perfect fit for McAfee at ESPN at first, but it's definitely working now. He is everywhere for them. As you are when you work at ESP. Well, when you work at ESPN and they like you, sometimes they'll bench your ass and put you in the back. But he's everywhere for them right now. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech.

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. The fact that Barstool, Dave Portnoy, himself, is so particularly controversial, yet the networks aren't afraid of him. do you think that that's because he's white? And a man. Not, not Fox.

Not Fox. No. Okay. Not Fox. It doesn't seem that you have a negative view of Fox in any way despite everything that's happened. Just being honest. A lot of people would have taken it.

A lot of people would be kicking their former employers back in. Ask me something about TMZ right now. Or the bastard. I mean, I don't... Look, in... There's... Look, this just happens. Right.

Like, I'm... I was there for nine years. There were great times. There were bad times. I've been through a lot in the past six months. But at the end of the day, I'm a businesswoman. I understand how this business works. Like, individuals can create an environment or experience for people at a corporation that isn't

necessarily reflective of everything that's going on. Like, we don't have enough time for me to go over each year of experience that I've had there. But, like, my personal, like, walk away from the situation as it stands right now is, I did a lot of great work there. I accomplished my dream, which was to be on a opinion set. with men and have the same microphone that they had. And I've been able to do that for the last three years

in both renditions of speak. And I don't, like, I can, I can be both angry and have gratitude for that experience. So, you know, again, I don't, I'm not a reactionary person. So I'm not going to come out and say, just, you know, a word vomit that doesn't serve me or anyone else. And I really do

at this point in my life want to focus on what I've done and what I'm going to do. And I know that people are interested in the shit. You know, they're interested in the muck and the drama.

And I get it. Like, we all are. But that's just, you know. I also look at it is, yes, they're interested in it. And I think when you're ready, and it sounds like you will, when you're ready to say something you will, I think it's also just about everybody's speaking for you rather than you taking control of your own narrative. So I guess I see it in that way. Well, like I said, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that aren't, like, final yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's, it's an ongoing legal situation. This all just happens. Like,

I think a lot of times in the business, and I don't judge because, look, it's an experience, right? And you get attached to things. You get attached to your routine. You get attached to the people you work with. You get attached to your platform. In a lot of ways, these shows become our, like, babies in a way.

Like, we put so much creative energy. Right. And it really becomes, like, I mean, we spend so much time at work. So it can be like a death of sorts. And people really feel very, very deeply about how things are handled. So I get it. But one thing I do want people to see in me is that I am a fucking gangster. And I really wish people would stop fucking forgetting that.

I'm very serious. It's not always wise to talk. In fact, I can do you much more in the long term to not talk. Let other people talk for you. Let other people make up their narratives. Let other people walk themselves out into the deep. Go ahead, baby, swim on out with that headline. Go ahead, babe, write that whole story.

Because when you know what's coming, now you have to swim back and explain yourself. Now you have to talk about how this wasn't really you being biased. as you were just doing your job. And to me, like, the slow kill and the long play is way more, way more satisfactory. I'm an extremely vengeful person. I think about it all the time. I have many grudges.

They're like my plants. Just give them a little water every day, little food. Hey, remember that? Remember that happened? Don't forget it. But reacting in the moment, to me, like, I see people do it when they're going through things

and I absolutely understand it. I absolutely understand it. I wanted to crash out so many times. On who? Everyone. So many people. When I say on who, I don't mean, I don't need names. What?

What group? No, no. Like, give me, okay. So when I say this, I mean, so obviously there are people who wrote stories. Obviously, there are people who covered it. What type of person are you looking to crash out on? People that were close to you that didn't support you, people that made fun of you. people that talked about your peanut butter skin.

Like what? Like what? You love that. Admit that you love that band. I'm sorry. You know why? I loved it? Because you know why I loved it?

Because that's the most sincere I've ever seen him. You know what's funny? It's like he, like I've never watched a second of, I know it exists because of you, because you're an asshole. And like, you know, other people. I've seen the comments and stuff.

But I've never watched a second of anything that, that he says. but I think it's so ironic that he would equate it to food. Like, don't you think that that... Love it. Love it. No, it's not... It's fitting. You're right. Like, on brand. It's on brand. If nothing else, he's going to be on brand. But he was staring off... You could tell he had really thought about that.

Of course he had. He was staring off. In the context of food. What do I want for snot? He was like, but when you say people that you have... Because I know... So I don't have animosity. to the public. Like that,

that makes sense. There's no animosity towards it. No, I mean, that makes sense. That part is, you got to charge that to the game. Like, that's what it is. Um, you know,

I wish that people were smarter, but they're not. And look, it's not people's jobs to, like, do deep dives into everything. I get it. That part,

it sucks, but like that, that part makes sense. Even the people who, like, personally didn't support me, that's okay too, because, well, I mean, they can fucking die,

but, like, I'm not, I don't, like, it's not changing my life. I have great friends and family, like, what's two people? Were you shocked by anybody who didn't, like, and I mean privately, like, that didn't, like, personally support you? Yes, yes, I was, but I will say, overwhelmingly I was supported. Like, overwhelmingly, I've been checked on. I've been...

Do you think the women in the industry supported you publicly? No. Rachel did. Right. Yeah. No, there were some. There were some. I know who they are. Right.

But I also don't, I'm going to sound Rachel this other night. I don't ever expect people to, like, come out and say anything. Like, that's just not, to me, that's not a, that's not ever something I would judge someone being my friend over. Huh. So you could be in trouble. and have a misconception out about you. Yeah. And you can have a friend with a public platform

that knows that that misconception isn't true and doesn't use that platform to address it and you would be okay with that. Yeah, I mean, I have been okay with that. I'm in the media business. Most of, I wouldn't say most, but a large contention of my friends have platforms. I think if they didn't support you personally,

like privately. Yeah, if they didn't support me privately and some people haven't. I understand everybody's not as outspoken as me. Or I react big or I'm just like, I have to. But people have things to lose too, which like... I have the platform where I can do it. That makes sense.

Everybody doesn't have a platform where they can come out and speak on controversial things and there aren't consequences to that. So I would never expect that. This wasn't Israel, Palestine. This was an issue of somebody... Well, I mean, like, I am like basically Matt Lauer. I'm glad you brought that back up.

But being a woman, but being a woman in sports, you have to toe. And you can speak to this because you've been in it way longer than I was in it for a couple of years. There's a line you have to walk. Like, you can't just do the same thing that your counterpart does, being a woman in sports. Like I can see how somebody in a totally different medium could not speak out or speak on it in the way that I did. Which is another reason I felt compelled to do it. Listen, this is what I'll say. I get it.

You guys are right. I'm not a woman. I'm not a woman in sports. I'm not even a man in sports. So whatever. What I will say is like, I don't know that if you got to break out,

if you're on your broadcast and you got to break out, this is why I think it's wrong. I get that you can't do that. But if you can't put up a video or shoot a tweet, you don't fuck with me. The end.

And I'm sorry. Like, me and you, me and you could beef people come at you I'm going to eat this thing and you have people come at you I'm going to be like hey this don't like I get it you and you are a gangster

see I am not I am all emotion and my emotion is fighting with logic all the time I go god damn this person's getting their ass kicked I at least got to say this for you and joy I'm gonna be real with you I see you out here

calloused over Calished over Like accepting all the blows Getting hit from every different place Being out there leading with the strength And I sometimes wonder if the dam is going to break Oh I do too But you know we got medication and stuff

I mean I got a good cocktail going right now You know when this first happened Like earlier in the in the the year. I had a lot of people say you've been through worse to me.

And I thought it was like, I knew where they were coming from. Like, they were trying to, you know, speak strength into me. But it was, it was a really like, it stuck with me as a statement, like, you've been through worse.

Because I have been through worse. Like, I've had someone try to murder me with their bare hands. I've had the shit kicked out of me physically many times. I grew up in an abusive home. Like, I've been sexually abused. I've been

terrible shit, like real shit. Shit that people do not come back from. But when they were saying it to me, I was like, well, this is new shit. Like, this is different shit. Like, if I got my ass beat again, I'd be like, all right, you know,

two or three weeks, bruce will go away. well, you know, whatever. We're still alive, so that's good. Because I've been through that. I hope to not go through that again, obviously. But when they said it was like, okay, you've been through worse shit. To kind of put it in perspective, it really, like, it just stuck out as a thing to say.

Because why we got to go through so much shit? Like, life is hard, right? Life is hard for everybody. There are people going through way worse shit. then we're going through everyone has their own personal struggle. But when you're doing it and being front-facing and you have the responsibility of still doing a show or still trying to show up as like strong,

yeah, it's exhausting. It's fucking exhausting. Which is why I have the Bishemi list. Like there has to be, there has to be like atonement to me eventually. And that is the only thing that keeps me on the rails, honestly.

I was going to say so is, and I'm sure it's more, but like hearing you what you say and all that, and you're so right, when you go through stuff and then it's something new and then it's also something public.

I know, you know, most of the time, opinions and comments and stuff don't get to you, but it's still there. It's still present. It's still weighs on you. How do you keep your peace

and do you even have it now? I don't have a lot of peace. And peace is like, here's what pisses me off. I had peace. That's what really pisses me off. I had peace and then now I don't. And when you have peace, you know what that feels like. It's so irritating.

Like if you've never felt peace, which up until that point, I hadn't. then you can live in the constant like tremor of trauma, which like my therapist, when I had peace was like, you can let go. Like you can kind of just live now. Like you've been through it. You've done the work. Like just live your life.

And for anyone who has had like trauma or PTSD or anything, you know how difficult it is to get to that point. Because you live in this. constant state of just assuming the, like, okay, the blow's coming from over here. Like, tomorrow it's going to be from over here. And you walk through life on eggshells in this constant state of, of like, unrest because you never expect any peace. So now I'm like, fuck, back to that. But I know this place. I'm familiar. But I think this time around, it's different because it was, A, it was a different experience. And B, unlike like the things

that were done to me in private and just to me, like when I was abused, I was being abused. And it wasn't in front of the world. This is like getting your ass kicked in front of the world. And you can't fight back. You can't fight back, but there's consequences to every single choice. And I have decided to mitigate what those consequences will be until a later time. I'll be honest with you.

Your friend that told you you've been through worse, that's like, in my opinion. I mean, shout out to them, but that's in my opinion, the 100% wrong thing to say. A lot of people said it to me. But to me,

a lot of times, me and Rachel have talked about that. When you say I've been through worse, it starts to strangle your ability to expect better. And, and, look,

there's people watching this that are having all different types of problems. They're having problems of they can't feed themselves. They're having problems of they're rich and their parents don't pay attention to them. Your problems

at the time that you are feeling them, they feel like your fucking problems. And you might be able to turn on the video and the TV and look at people starving in Calcutta and be like, well at least I'm not them but shit you still want your dad to hug you

like you you might be able to look and see people that are struggling somewhere else and go well shit it could be worse it could be one of those people I feel like sometimes people use that as an excuse not to treat you better or not to have you expect better I think it's about

the goal of that statement is about perspective right when we do see horrible things happening to people that don't have food that are being bombed, right? Like they're refugees. Like when we see those things, it puts in perspective our problems. That I think is the point of the statement.

What I would agree with you is you only have the problems you have. You can still empathize and have perspective. Okay, like I have this problem in perspective. It's not that big of a problem. but it feels big to me. And that statement, I guess I bring it up because, like, you ask how I'm doing. Like, I'm not doing great. Not doing great.

But what is the alternative? Well, there's... Because what, like, what's not on the table is, like, losing. Okay. So this is what I would say. Two things. No, I don't think emotion has perspective. I don't.

Sure. I don't think emotion has perspective. I think circumstance has perspective, right? And if you're going to litigate circumstance, then you can get it all this is okay. I don't think emotion has perspective. Like, you know, I was a 40-year-old man looking for my dad to love me in the same way that I did when I was 13.

It didn't make any sense. I was taking care of him. It didn't make sense. But it just is what it is. Right. What I would say is if you're actually not doing okay, and I don't want to get into psychobabble, as long as you're processing it,

as long as you're processing it, as long as you're living in it, because if you're not doing okay and you're reactive, then you're not going to know when you are. Right? So, like, it's as long as, look, people have different ways of doing this,

but as long as you're processing it, as long as you're going, look, I'm not, for me, big dude, like, whatever, there are times where I just got to go, I'm not feeling that good. right now. Because you know what happens if I don't? I'll start beating niggas up. Like I'll start hurting people. I will turn my pain

into other people's pain and I will attack. I will start doing it like the niggas from from Baton Rouge do, which is fucking with drugs, fucking women, doing all that kind of stuff and giving my pain to everybody else. Now, I honestly don't think that's as much of a concern with ladies, but I do think if I'm going to make some of the

wildly gender-based generalized statements that you guys have made in this conversation, I do think you guys sometimes wear your pain and then think that that's strength. I think that because women a lot of times don't want to be seen as weak or don't

want to be seen as fragile by men who their barometers of strength in a way men and women think that the amount of stuff that a woman can take

is her strength. I'm not going to crying from everybody, okay? I don't need you to cry. And the bigger point is when you are a woman in a male dominated space, you have to operate in the masculine at all times. I disagree.

It's really true. I'm telling you, I'm sure that that's true. You do. And the reason you do is because the women that don't get... Okay, let me not say I disagree. Like, launched, like into outer space out of there. Okay, okay. So let me tell you something.

I can't say I disagree. What I'm saying is, then rather than assimilate to that, we have to force that change. No, I'm not doing it. Respectfully. We were out of this conversation. I'm not going to say I disagree because you guys are right. You're not wrong about it.

That's for the next generation, Gen X. Because I could say that for the same thing. I could say that like when I walk into a room with all of these white guys, I do with a lot of white guys, that the easiest way is to act like one of them. To not seem threatening. To not seem threatening. Sure.

You have to do that. I don't. Well, I don't do it and I can't do it and I won't do it. It's not happening. I don't say that I'm not showing up in my feminine. Okay. And I have definitely had moments where I have been able to gratefully be,

be soft with with people that have supported me and like be appropriately vulnerable but in a in this space that that I'm in

and showing up as a black woman outside your door or online or in any space that is hyper masculine uh-uh no no Is that why you feel like

when everything came out in January you didn't? I think people were expecting you to like go dark and you were like living your life the exact same way. You know, I never, it never even occurred to me to do that. I would have probably been the same way.

Because a lot of people ask me about why didn't you turn the comments off? And thanks for the engagement, by the way. I'll be using that. That's why I would have kept the comments on. I'll be using that for my... 100%. I've deleted your Instagram.

I deleted my Instagram. Instagram for my mental peace after the Chris Harrison thing. I kept it up for like a weekend. Yeah, I did. Maybe a week. I absolutely did. I don't, I'm talking about the divorce though. Like I kept I appreciate the engagement.

But go ahead. Yeah, keep the comments coming. I love it when people turn their comments off because if you turn your comments off on one post with me, you got to turn them off on all the posts. Because I'll go back to a post from three months ago. And write it? And then I'll comment. I'd be like, hey, hey, hey, man.

I want to know what, we want to know what you was talking about with Trump. It'll be you. Hey, I want to know. I want to know what you was talking about with Trump, man. I know you turned the comments off, but I see this a picture of you and Ivanka Trump. What did you mean by that picture? I also did not read anything. I did not consider.

I know people think that that's, as the kids say, cap. but it's it is a 100% fact because I knew what it was going to be and yeah so like I didn't read anything I didn't consume peanut butter brain or any of the other pundits no reels and like obviously it was everywhere

but and I just wasn't on the platforms but yeah what am I where am I going yeah I agree what's your opinion of Men. That's such a loaded question. I think men are beautiful. I think they're necessary.

I am unfortunately physically attracted to them, which I believe is a curse. Being a heterosexual woman. Yes, I think it is. Do you have a problem with people thinking that you don't like men? No. Why would I have a problem with? that. I'm asking.

Why does that label happen so quickly? What do you mean? Like whenever, because people don't think I like men, specifically black men. Like like, like date them. No, no, no. Like, like, because of what, because you'll get on the platform and talk about men in a certain way, like, like, Princess Boys

or stuff like that. Well, there are a lot of Princess Boys. There's a lot of Princess Boys, right? But then the more we talk in that space, the more it's like, oh, well, she must hate men. That's what he's talking about. I do hate a lot of men. I hate a lot of men. I hate a large contingent of men. Absolutely. I hate a lot of them.

Give me a percentage of men you hate overall. I would say it's probably about 60% of men. I was going to say it has to be over 50. It has to be over 50. Well, because one, I hate bitch-ass men. And there's so many bitch-ass men in a variety different ways. It's favorable on the percentage. I know.

I'm trying to be nice. It's much higher. You're in a safe space. Oh, yeah. Because the thing is, the men that I love are real men. And I believe that I know what that is. What is it?

You are a real man. Thank you. Yes. A real man to me is somebody who is not talking about women's bodies in Instagram comments. They don't know. Okay. Like you're in... Have I misjudged you? No. I haven't. He's going back in the past,

maybe. You're thinking about the past. No, no, no, no, no. I've never talked about, oh, when we say talking about women's bodies, you mean like, uh, negatively? No, like, imagine your man that you, I would, yeah, yeah. All right, your man, that you allow to touch you. This is your man. And you go online and you're just casually strolling and you see his, his Instagram handle. Damn, you, you, you, you would rage. That he uses, by the way. He uses his

Instagram. Right. And then he, he, he's commenting on a woman who's just a woman just doing her living her life, posting her nails that she's ugly and her eyelids are droopy or something. Okay. That's what I was saying negative. Okay, so I think that's a...

Imagine he has the time... I mean, I would rage. I would be... I don't think I could date again. I don't, I think it would be that humiliating. So that is a very that's an online phenomenon. I do think, you know, what's, what's funny to me is,

I do think it's sometimes funny, like I see guys and they're like, yo, man, Zendaya ain't got enough body for you, for me, and I'd be like, nigger. Don't worry about that. But there's a lot. I get it. Like, do your comment autopsy and see how many men are in it. So this is what I'll say about that. The reason why I ask this question is twofold.

One, for the sound bite. Two, I ask the question, seriously this, because when I identify men that I think don't like women, I'm open and honest about it. If you orient every single criticism of a man or a black man about men or black men, I'm going to go, there's an issue there. Just like if you orient every single criticism about a woman or black women

a black woman about black women I'm gonna be like why does it have to be about black women? I can't keep up with the current wave of opinion. Is the opinion of me at this current state that I don't like men? We're talking about this because I even talk about this with Rachel.

Like, but sometimes I do think though that just as a black man I'm gonna be open and honest and vulnerable with you guys right now. Sometimes I get tired of wearing the sins of some nigga I never met before. Like I just, it's annoying. It's annoying to me.

I get tired of somebody because you need to say shit. I'd be like, yo man, I just donate it to your breast cancer awareness. Why do you include yourself? Because you said black men and I am one. But when I hear people make criticisms about black women and I know I don't fit that, I'll be like, I mean.

Oh, get the fuck out of here. That's bullshit. Y'all, y'all are here lying. If I right now said, Hold on, hold on, that's not true. I don't take accusations about things that have nothing to do with me personally. Oh, my God. So you were a Kevin Samuels fan?

No, but I found it funny at times. Right. And the reason why you weren't is because you weren't one because you thought, hey, this guy always has something to say that's negative about black women. What's wrong with him? Like, what's the deal? Well, yeah, I think there's something wrong with him. I think it was wrong in a lot of his opinions as well.

I think he's, I think he's, I don't care. You don't say. I don't care what he's got to say about anything. It's funny. What does he have to do? It doesn't matter. This is the thing. This is the thing. This is like where we get into the mud with all of this. And this is truly an important conversation because I think that if people realize nobody's talking about you, then we might actually be nicer to each other. Because the truth is, I love men. I think I love men too much. In fact, the 40% I do love, I love 100% of the 40%. I have great men in my life. I have great male friends. I have great male friends. I have great brothers. I have great uncles and cousins.

I adore my nephews. I'm very proud of them. I think men are essential to society. I think good men have a responsibility to raise good men and mentor good men. I think they are so important to the family structure. I wish we took better care of them. I wish we allowed them to be vulnerable and emotional and be protected in that space and not demonized for having a range of emotions

that don't include anger and lust. I think that men educated, strong, powerful men are not propped up enough and champions enough in all areas of society. That being said, if you're a clown-ass man, you're a clown. And there's just,

you shouldn't be offended by that. You shouldn't be offended by someone calling out clown shit. Like Kevin Samuels talking about women, this, and I don't even know what the fuck he said. Nothing he ever said applied to me. And this is what happens on the internet all the time because people will say things about me like, oh, like no one's ever going to marry you.

I'm divorced. So what happened? And then after that, I got engaged. So what happened? What are you talking about? You think men don't want to date me? Are you guys on? Crock.

Shut up. It has nothing to do with me. So why am I going to be offended about what people are, people out here saying, oh, women are washed or da-da. Listen, I could take your son and your father. And I could bag you. Three generations. Three generations I could take down if I wanted to.

If I woke up tomorrow and decided that I'm going to take apart your entire family, I could do that. Why would I be worried about what someone else to say? I can't tell if you guys are intentionally obfuscating. I swear to God, I can't tell if you guys are intentionally obfuscating or if you two are tag teaming and running game on me right now. Why would we care? Why would we do that?

Because I'm talking about something very specific and you guys are jukeing it. What I'm saying is this. So listen, what I'm saying is this. What I'm saying is if I see somebody that has a problem with a black woman or two black women or even black women in their city, even black women in their high school, right? All of these guys is like, man, you know, you know why I only date white women and only find them beautiful and only think that they are. Because the black women in the 10th grade, they all told me I had lips like Flavlave and I never forgot that.

But the white women loved me. I look at those people as weak. I go, you are a weak person for making your problems with one group of people in the 10th grade about an entire race of women and why would you come out and speak? Because when you say black women, I don't care. You're talking about Rachel. You're talking about Joy.

You're talking about my mama. You're talking about my sister. You're talking about all of them. So if you don't like Kevin Samuels, I feel like this, we can have a truth. If you don't like Kevin Samuels, if you don't like the last five niggas that you dated, I don't want to be a part of them.

I don't want you to say black men and shit. I don't want you to say black men because I don't do that with y'all. How many times have you? Have we ever been on this podcast and five years are doing it? And men to be like, that's a black woman thing. You don't, but you'll be like, y'all. No, I want to be clear.

When I'm talking about men, I'm talking about all men. Actually, to be honest with you, I don't know that I would say this. There are common threads that I recognize in communicating with women, right? These threads are based upon largely, largely on socialization. the way you're acting is the way you were taught to act the way I'm acting is the way that I was taught to act and I am doing my best to constantly challenge my socialization and I'm failing every day like failing every day

we appreciate you doing that. But it does kind of seem like on the other end of I'm just kind of tired of getting kicked in my balls. Why is it your balls? No one's kicking your ball. We're kicking these lame balls. And they deserve to get their balls kicked. You're not a lame. So don't worry about what the lanes are going to.

Every time this conversation comes up, this happens. What is this? Why are y'all caping up for lames? It happens all the time. I'm not caping for lames. I'm telling you. But you need to worry about the average man. Don't worry about the average man.

Let them suffer. They deserve it. Well, number one, number one, these men, two things. One, that's actually not a bad point. I actually like that. I'm not capable for lambs. What I'm saying is there, a lot of the men that, like, I have to go, I have to go evangelize to these men.

But I do. Listen. So you've made it to your mission. No, no, no. You cannot, you cannot cure. No, I've made my, you cannot cure lame. You cannot cure lame. We talked about it.

It is internal. It is in your DNA. I have made it my mission to not turn my, to have a conversation with anyone. So when I'm on the phone with my homeboys and my home boys say something, I'll be like, my nigger. That's what. That's what. And we got to talk about it. And we have to have this discussion. I think lame is incurable. And it is not, it is not my mission in this life. Do you realize you sound like one of these niggas?

I probably am one. All right. Lame is incurable. Say more. Okay. Lame is incurable. What I am not as a lame. And lame is incurable. Okay. Lame is incurable. Because lame is in your spirit. Okay. It's in your soul. It's in your DNA. You are born that way. You can't move away from it. Okay.

And it is a true disease. Incurable. Incurable. And there will never find a cure. There is a difference though between somebody being traumatized or scarred or have been bullied or have an experience that has limited their range in society. Maybe they grew up in a place that didn't have a whole lot of access to things. And they have the capacity, the intellectual,

an emotional capacity for change, right? That is not a lane. There are people who can think one thing, meet new people, have interactions with different people, and then change. And then there are lanes. And it is very easy to identify.

To me, the difference between the two. I love having conversations. That is my favorite thing to do, is have conversations. What I'm not going to do, what I'm not going to do, is go back and forth with a fucking smooth brain

who also, happens to hate women. That is not my mission in this life. And every time I have these conversation about men, it's like, because it's like the male loneliness epidemic, and it's like men feel like if they can't provide anything, they can't get women. This is not my fucking problem.

It's not my fucking problem. What is your, which part of it's your problem? You know what's my problem? My problem is none of it because this is men's business. And I don't doubt it. None of it's my problem. Men's business is not my business. Okay, so overall, just so I know,

I'm getting educated here. what are women responsible for? Women. Women are responsible for women. I think people are responsible for themselves, period. Correct. But something that she said earlier when she was saying, I love 100% of the 40% of men. And she was saying all the things that she wish for men,

when you were saying, I wish they could be more vulnerable. I wish you could be those things. I think as an individual, when you say you're responsible for myself, when I say I'm responsible for myself, it's my duty to make you feel comfortable enough to be that. That's still me putting that on me. But like I'm doing something where I'm like, the way I act, the way I am with men,

gives them the space to be those things when she named out that laundry list. That is what I'm responsible for. But that is a me thing. Right. So as a man, I feel responsible for men and women. I feel responsible to protect the women in my community and I feel responsible to make sure that the men

protect the women in my community. But you are a leader, man. But no, no, I'm not. I'm not mad at that answer. I'm like, I'm just a dude. No, I'm not. I'm just a dude. That sounds like something a leader would say.

No, I swear to God. Just a guy. I'm swear to God, I'm in the pigly-wiggly. I'm in the pigly wiggly with this, with my dad. A long time ago, dude, you know how, you know, the funny yoking up of women? Sometimes I just funny, it's funny. Like, you ever seen a man grab a woman like right under her arm? Yeah, I hate that shit.

Yeah, right. So I seen a dude yoke a woman up like that, and my dad went, all right, now. And he was like, I don't know what y'all going to do at home, but come on. Come on, my son here. And the dude was like, look, nah, she's never going to look at you the same if I get on your ass.

And I'm like, like. Okay, you're making points. I understand what you're saying. I feel a responsibility to the men in my life. But I'm saying the same thing, saying. Like the men in my life who comes to me and like need a vulnerable space, right?

Or need advice or they're going through something. I'm going to stop you real quick because I'm going to figure this. Realize that you guys want us to be better but you're saying you don't feel responsible for our care. No, no, not your care. I'm talking about the collective. I'm talking about the collective. It's not my responsibility to go out and make sure that in cells feel hurt.

I'm not saying that. It's not my responsibility to make sure that the guy, in the comments who's talking shit to me is is is is met with like grace and understanding that my responsibility is the people in my life my responsibility is my nephews is my brothers is my friends is my co-workers is my business partners is it is the people in my family that is my responsibility as a woman is the people that interact with me have a the men who interact with me have support are seen, are understood, are given grace, or, are, they have the space to be full human beings.

And I can say unequivocally that I do that. I do not think for one seconds that a man in my life does not feel that energy and grace from me. Now, the rest of them are not my fucking problem. And furthermore, I don't, I think that women, it's always women's fucking responsibility to do everything. We got to do everything. We got to fix everything. We got to make sure you guys feel good. And then like, don't yell when the shit isn't. I ask the dishes. It's always us. Can we have five minutes? Hey, look, this is what I'm going to say. Number one,

if you're talking about your nephews, man, shout out. You know, boy. Shout out. You know what I'm saying. New York Jets. I can't even hate on it. He did this thing. That's that, that's a LSU legend. I'm aware. A legitimate LSU. I'm just saying y'all should care about the male loneliness epidemic y'all should how do we fix that should we just start fucking

I have no clue but the reality is if men are lonely then women are lonely no women are not lonely I think women are lonely though I don't think women are lonely oh I know a lot actually I think women are lonely

I don't think women are lonely I don't think women are lonely because I see it now I'm not speaking about myself But I know a lot of women who feel very successful in their own right and they've done everything that they're supposed to, but they don't have that companionship that they want. I also think that, you know, when you and I talk, we may be different in certain ways, right? From the women that I'm talking about, I think maybe what we seek, maybe it's because we've been divorced. Maybe it's because we are women in male-dominated fields.

the type of companionship or maybe even the time and the attachment is different from what I see with a lot of women. They really want companionship, marriage, children, all of that. And because they don't have those things, they feel very lonely. Or like they feel it's very hard for them to date because they're trying to date a certain man who is intimidated by them. So then they can't get that. So I see a lot of that. I'm not talking about us because I think there's levels of, I don't know if there's levels of loneliness, but there's a difference. Like, I don't think we will ever be lonely.

I was actually lonely in my marriage. Actually, let me shut the fuck. I was lonely in my marriage. Obviously, y'all not going to be lonely. No, but that's not. I don't mean it like that. There's a difference between what I'm saying? Yeah, you can be, you can be.

What we need is different from the type of person that I'm talking about. Yeah, and there's different types of lonely. I understand that. But what I'm saying is when even when we're having these conversations, right? Like, I'm not the smartest man in the world, but I'm not the dumbest. I'm not the smartest. I'm not the finest nigga in the world, but I'm not whack. So I'm a beat straight.

Sometimes when I see what happens when people cannot connect, I didn't see people drink their self to death and all of that stuff. And we can have conversations. When I see the male loneliness epidemic, I am curious as to why people no longer see themselves in each other. That is profound. It's profound that. people, because what it used to be was two people who didn't make a lot of money who weren't

the two most beautiful people in the world could go, I see myself in you. And in you, not that they had a perfect relationship, not that there wasn't issues and all that, but I see myself in you. I see myself in you. Look, we're happy. We made this little family. We came together. People no longer see themselves in each other. They're looking and grabbing people out of the sky to try to relate to, and it's having an effect. Do you think that's why people got married back in the day? No, I think that people got married for a lot of reasons, but I think that a lot of the reasons had to do with entrenched patriarchy and all of that stuff.

But I also think people just met each other at work. They just met each other at dances. They just met each other and basically said, and say the quiet part. And they said, if I have to choose somebody is you. And the reality is- They dated within their league. Right. That's fine. But what I'm saying is a part of that is real. I think the loneliness epidemic comes from like what you guys just said a second ago, you're not lonely. You're not lonely. Of course, beautiful, talented Rachel Lindsay isn't lonely. Of course, beautiful talented Joy Taylor isn't lonely. That's not why I'm saying we're not lonely. I know pretty talented, successful, lonely. It's, I think what we seek is different or the way we seek it is different. By the way, that in itself could be an issue. Well, I also, I don't.

Oh, I'm not going to say I don't. Man, I told him I'll see him in 2026. Like, literally. I told her this, that's like, I literally go. All right. I'm not ready to deal with that. I just want to give me the rest of the year. We need to build up some more trauma before we start getting into that.

I have decentered men. Which is great. So I, but I also, and I say this all the time, I don't advise anyone to do anything I do. I live a very unique, specific life that I have meticulously designed for me and my desires. I don't blanket statements, things that you should do that. You person out there should not do things I do because it's probably not going to bring you the happiness that you think I am, you're seeing in me.

I like my life the way that I like it. That doesn't mean that you should do anything I do. If you want to have kids, you should be dating people that want kids. I don't want kids. So I don't date people that want kids. Right? Like there are things that each person does for their own desires that are beneficial to them. The male loneliness epidemic is not a simple phenomenon.

It's very complex. Right. And it is being amplified by what you're talking about. And the reason we're calling it a male loneliness epidemic, and not a female loneliness epidemic is because a lot of women women don't hurt people.

Well, one. So the reason why we're calling it a male-loyalty epidemic and not a female-loyalty epidemic is because... When men are lonely, they turn into murders. When men are lonely... And this, we just have to call this,

when men are lonely... Well, you say it because you're a man. So if I say it, then I'm... I'm just saying, when men are lonely or unfulfilled, they take it out on each other and other people because they haven't been socialized. All kinds of ways. They take it out through rage.

They take it out through domination. In all kinds of ways, they take it out, right? And so it is an actual atom bomb inside of a society to have a bunch of angry men walking around. Right. And so that's why we should care about it. What has happened in society, what has happened in society, and this is why I said women need five.

minutes because women have autonomy, some autonomy, for the first time in the history of this country. We have freedom. We have some autonomy over our bodies. We can start businesses. We can own homes. We can live completely independent lives from men. We can even have children without having a man in our lives or even having to have sex with them. We can adopt children. Like we can create our own lives completely independent of men. That's never been the case before, ever. So we were raised by women who didn't live in that society

and didn't live in that reality. They were raised by women who didn't live in that reality. And before that, God knows what the fucking situation was. So there is generational trauma that women are shedding. right now in this probably what will be a temporary space of freedom that we have. And because of that, the choice that women have, going up into this space of men who have been raised by men and women who lived in that society, who were raised by men and women who lived in a society, where the rules that you talked about existed, where you couldn't get a credit card

and you had to marry a man that was in your little town to have kids and you guys didn't make that much money. And if he turned into an alcoholic, you couldn't leave. If he beat the shit out of you or abused your children or he had a second family or whatever the fuck men were doing because this was a patriarchy and men were in charge. Okay? Or just they just sucked and were boring.

You couldn't leave. And that was a reality for all of our mothers, for all of our grandmothers, our great-mother's. Not for all. Is that the reality for your mom, Rachel? I mean, yes and no. Most, okay, I hate, all we always get to be real. For most, okay, for most, overwhelmingly, that was the reality for women.

And so now. The reality for women that they were all prisoners in marriages that were unhappy. No, no, no, no, no. Because that's not my mom. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying society, right? That was the framework, the laws of society. I completely agree with you.

Written into law. No, I get that. Okay, so that was the framework. So it's not all. Some people had beautiful loving marriages with beautiful children. Okay. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying as a whole, that was the law and the rule of society.

So now that women have the choice to say, I would like a partner that has a range of emotions, that has interest. passions, you know, that can have a conversation with another human being without bringing up QAnon or Reddit, you know? I don't, I would like a complete person. And because men, because of society and patriarchy that harms everybody, they've been raised to only show up with dick and a job. We have both of those anytime we want. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it has created this space for these men who only want only. fans models or Sports Illustrated swimsuit models who

are online habitually seeing women who would never would not would step over them if they were being eaten by an alligator. They would step on their forehead. These women are not they're not ever going to touch you. Right? They don't

go outside. And then they're angry at women because they don't get pussy. Okay. So two things. one, I'm going to say like a grand thing about the entire thing. Just a bit. I don't believe you.

What part? I just said a lot. The fact that this group of women that you're talking about has decented men? No, no. I didn't say all. Nope. Man, I have decensored men.

All of these women. That's true. So much of the conversation that you have is about men. What I'm saying, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm, I mean when I say decentering men.

I just like, just for clarity purposes. Yeah, I didn't take it that way. When I say, and the statement, decentering men means that every day I wake up, I have a full life. I have friends. I have a career. I have businesses.

I have family. I have interests and passions. I do not feel, and this is a genuine statement that is not meant to diminish men, because having a partner is a beautiful thing, and I will have one. But I don't feel. feel any less of a person or like I'm living any less of a life because I don't have that.

Every, and I do not actively every day wake up searching for that. And there's nothing wrong with doing that. I'm just saying that that part of my life and chapter of my life is either on hold or I'm not doing it anymore. What will come to me will come to me in the space that it needs to. And that's what decentering men means. And men, men can also. She isn't either. I aspire to have that mentality. I don't know if I believe that. I'm not there. No, no, she hasn't, she isn't either. You have decented, you have decented, a relationship.

That, no. Oh, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, wait a second. You have decentered a relationship. Decentering a relationship is saying, I've decentered the need to have somebody in my life. And that person that would be in my life would so happen to be a man because I am a heterosexual.

Decentering men would be, would be, I don't give a fuck about. about men's problems and what men are going through. And I hear you speaking to them all the time. That's not what she means by decentering men. Okay. But maybe you just have two different different. Is there an island where there are no men that I can go?

I think you just have two different definitions because that's not what I'm, I know what she means because I actually aspire that, which is why I'm not doing therapy right now. I'm going to be in this place where I am. So here's a deal. I, I'll just be honest with you. I listen to men all the time that try to convince you that bitches ain't shit. And what I tell them all the time is, bitches are shit. And the reason why they are is because you can't stop talking about them.

Every single thing, your whole existence is around critiquing, trying to minimize and mute women. You're not just not fucking concerned about women. You're actually obsessed with them. You are. Just your obsession has metastasized and is now something that is a net negative, not just for women, but for yourself. Do you think that I center men in this way? I think that this is what I think.

I think that a lot of your, a lot of the ways that you approach this, I don't blame you for approaching it this way. I really don't. That's not I don't. But what I'm saying is if we can have a conversation, this is what I'm saying, very clearly, if we can have a conversation about how lame is you're born a lame,

if we can have a conversation that is incredibly that's critiquing me. We should also be able to have an exploratory conversation about what we need to do to address this. And so if we're going to have a conversation about the male loneliness epidemic from the purview of these men are responsible for their loneliness, I think that that's actually bad.

I think that it's actually, I think that the way we should have that conversation with any type of group that we are zeroing in on is one that has, I'm sorry, I know this is some compassion, some empathy and some curiosity. I'm the wrong person to have this conversation because I've got like one drop of empathy left in my body before I turn into a full villain and it's not going to be for the male lonelies. But let's let's let's let's

you skip my question but it's fine. Well I don't want to let's workshop this. I don't want to like I skipped your question because you centering men this is what I think. Do I think that you center men? Yeah, I think that you have a lot of conversations

about your critiques about men and about masculinity. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I do think that there's a holistic way to talk about this that doesn't necessarily get into villain making all the time that people aren't willing to do. And I think that's for the negative. I think that if we're going to have a conversation

about the things that are so wrong, we do this about racism all the time. It's activists out there right now that I know don't want racism to end because they don't have something else that they can do. Oh, God. I swear to God. Yes. I know it's activists out there right now that love it when the police fuck somebody up.

Because they got something to raise money off of. And what I'm saying is, I want an end to the thing. And if we're going to have a, to say that you don't give a fuck about the male loan in this epidemic is an odd thing to say if you care about the way men treat women. I don't feel that way. But yes. When I say I don't give a fuck about it, I don't give a fuck about me being the one that's responsible for fixing it. But let's have the conversation. Okay, let's have a conversation then.

Because Hulk Hogan died, we haven't even talked about it. How. I don't give my fuck about it. Yeah, that's, neither do we. Yeah. I think that's, so, I wish, I cared.

And that's, that's the sad part. The child and you wishes that you. Yeah, the child of me wishes I cared. Yeah. What, I cared about the fact that you know. What are women supposed to do? Since this is really what we're saying,

what are women supposed to do? Well, if it's, if it's not just men's fault, because I think, I think, I think, it's men's responsibility. But what are women supposed to do besides fucking lambs? Because that seems to be the easy solve, right?

Besides that, what are women supposed to do? What should I do to help ease the burden of these poor men who are craving true human connection? Okay. How can I fix it?

All right. I'm going to respond with a question. What am I supposed to do about domestic violence? I don't be women. And that's what you do. That is your actual responsibility. That's not enough. That's your opinion. I'm a domestic violence survivor.

You do not have to be an advocate for domestic violence. I'm telling you right now. Awareness, you do not have to do anything other than disagree with it and not hit women. I'm telling you right now that the way that you attach, attack a problem like that, in my opinion, especially if you go, if you're going to talk about it, if you're going, if it's going to be something that you endeavor into, the way that you talk, what I have to do about them, it's not enough not to beat the women in my, it's not enough. It's, and I will give credit to somebody for this.

And I'm educated by the women in my life, some brilliant women that I'm surrounded with. And of course, the brilliant woman that I talk to every day. She, she goes, we're talking. about like this situation with domestic violence and she goes, all right, you don't involve yourself in anything like that. I'm like, no. And she goes, do any of your friends. I'm like, well, I don't know. She's like, why

wouldn't you know? Like, yeah, the women out of around you are safe. But if you are creating little cubicles, little groups where other men that are unsafe to women can come into them and be around you, then it's not enough what you're doing.

You have to set a standard, not just for you, and I was actually taken aback and slightly offended. So you have to set a standard, not just for you, but for the men that are around you. So they would know that that's not cool. And you know what struck me when she said that is I had already done it, but not what demand.

violence. In our crew, if you're not taking care of your kids, we won't fuck with you. Like, we won't fuck with you. In my crew, we won't fuck with you if you don't take care of your kids. And that sets a standard within us that we are guys that had fathers and we want that to be a thing, at least for us. Now, I'm not saying that, I mean, we were all niggas that cheated on our girls and did all the ain't shit. I'm an ain't shit nigger trying to do better. But I'm saying in that situation, what she said to me made sense. I was like, oh, well, yeah, what sense does it make for me not to be abusive to a woman when I'm playing Madden or basketball with somebody who is?

I'm making him think that that's okay by my connection to him. And by the way, this is not a one-to-one. We've had conversations on this podcast about friends that I have that people don't like or they got bad political decisions and all of this stuff. I get it. But what I'm saying is in that situation, yeah, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is not enough. Because if people are being harmed from it and we're going to endeavor into discussing it, we have to discuss it in a way that meets people where there are, where they are as people. So I don't want to. That's it.

I don't want to diminish what you're saying. But so to. To make an equal comparison, right, then I'm supposed to identify the in cells in my life. and talk them out of it? No. Because when you're talking about the male loneliness epidemic All the men who are lonely are in cells and lames,

that's what you're saying. Well, the epidemic. The epidemic, yes. The epidemic is specifically talking about this type of group of people. But if it's an epidemic, how could they all be in cells and lanes? Because there's a lot of them.

I disagree. We're never going to agree on this. Well, because there's a difference between a functioning person who goes outside who is actively looking for human connection and hasn't found their partner. That is not a male lonely lane.

That is not what we're talking about. And it is not what is referred to as the male loneliness epidemic. It's not the women that Rachel is talking about. We are talking about a specific group of people that do not leave their house, that do not interact with human beings that are spread. That is what I'm talking about. I want to be honest with you guys, I don't know if y'all have really dug into this.

This is like the term male loneliness epidemic? The term male loneliness epidemic is it's true but it's true that there are a lot of behaviors

that are connected to it but it is describing a societal situation that is very far and wide reaching and affects all types of people some all the people that you named

as well but some people that actually are benign members of societies and don't have the skills necessary to go out there because of the way they've been socialized and attract women. And I'm not saying that we have to

first of all, let me because we've been on this for a while. Let me say this. I'm not saying that anyone here that it's their job to make the male loneliness epidemic a crusade. But if you are going to critique

men, right? If you are going to critique, take it out of men, if I'm going to critique whiteness, I have to care about whiteness. I have to care about the reasons why, white people act the way they act. I have to care about the structural reasons that undergird white, white, whiteness. I have to actually care about

presenting a solvable equation to the problem of racial disparity in America. And that's their scholarship behind that. If not, you're just kicking white people in their ass. But I feel like I feel, I'm going to speak for myself. Okay. I feel like I do that. Because there are, every time I talk about this,

I outline the very long tangent that I went on about how we got here, why women's autonomy is playing a massive role in this epidemic. Because the standards of society that men were raised to exist in do not exist anymore for women. Women have choice. That is affecting the partners that they're choosing. I'm not trying to diminish it that much. I'm saying that there is a massive explanation for this. I'm not just saying that men are lanes.

It's not that simple. There is a patriarchal, strategic deterioration to, society that is happening paired with women getting autonomy, rising in their ability to make money, rising in positions of power, the ability to create your family and build a family in the way that is unique and specific to your desires, whether you are a woman or a man, the influx of toxic masculinity and that propaganda that is distributed across the entire planet in various ways. the broification of dating, the lack of empathy towards other people in a variety of different ways, whether it is critiquing people's bodies, whether it's critiquing what people have,

social media, creating these unrealistic expectations for absolutely everyone in whatever it is that you feel insecure about. It is not a simple thing, and it is not as simple as kicking men when they're down. What is the oversimplification of it to me is that men being lonely is a direct responsibility of women to fix. Because in my opinion, men need to help other men. If women, if I was dealing with women, this was a women's loneliness epidemic, I would be speaking to why women are experiencing that. I think that a lot of women absolutely are being completely unrealistic with dating and what they want and what they need. I think if you want a family, you should be dating people that want a family,

not dating somebody who doesn't want a family and then being angry at them. But I have those conversations with the women in my life that do unrealistic things all the time. And guess what? They're mad at me when they do it. But that's what I'm going to do. What I'm saying is solving a societal issue

that is specific to a gender seems like it's largely that gender's responsibility. And I think that you are a quite, you described a benign. Especially when it's men and they have power. you described a male that's lonely in a benign way. I don't think that that fits the term of the male loneliness epidemic. I think that they're,

that they're separate. I think that because to what she's talking about is the ones who blame women, basically, for their loneliness. What you're talking about, the way you described it as a guy who's just has, it's hard for him to socialize and connect with people. Okay.

Women, I should say. So this is what I would say. All well taken. Number one, I think that. gendered problem. I think that there are very few gendered problems in society. I don't think that there are problems.

I don't think that there's problems that women got. And I don't think that there are problems that men have. I think that there are very few gendered problems in society. Give me an example. Did somebody literally been talking about this podcast? So is patriarchy a problem? Was Van kidnap?

Cash your question. Is this pod van? Cash your question. Cash your question. Is patriarchy a problem for women? You got to go? No, I'm checking your pulse. Hold on.

Is patriarchy a problem for women? Yes. Now, patriarchy is a problem created by men. Understand what I'm saying. Patriarchy is a problem created by men and reinforced by women. But patriarchy is a major problem for women. So when I say that there are very few gendered problems that don't involve the other gender, specifically, I mean the reason why, reason why black maternal mortality

is a problem to me is because I am a man that shares my community with women. And the pain of the women in my community affects me. So there are very few problems that are problems that are

only from me. That's because you're choosing and because of who you are as a person. It doesn't actually affect you. That's not, that's bullshit. You mean to tell me that you like, wait, wait, wait. You don't affect you, but I Hold on. Hold on. Stay on Black maternal mortality. You mean to tell me, I have a one.

I have a, hold on, wait. I have, I have a woman. She gets pregnant. She goes and gives birth. She dies. And we, so, so she dies. That doesn't affect me? But she's saying because of the type of person you are because you care. It does affect you. No, no, no, no. That would affect.

I'm not even saying that. I'm not even saying that. Hey. I'm saying today. Beautiful words. Agreed to disagree. No. No. No.

No. If we need to move on, we need to move on. But this is what I'll say. You, I think because you are a real man, okay, and you are, you're complex. No, I'm not. I'm not patient-in-old. You are a complex person. You are an intellectual and you're empathetic.

So sometimes, I say this as your friends, you kind of, there's the line, and then you just kind of kick some sand on it to bring your, bring your, bring your, brother's over with you. Okay. Okay. And like you're on this side because of those things. And I wish for, genuinely, wish for men to have that experience, right? Because then you see things like the black women mortality rate, right, in hospitals in general, but also in birth, as being a problem that affects you even though you are not having a child right now. But there are men who, look exactly like you, who are in the exact same situation you are, who don't give a fuck about this.

And they live their lives every day, not thinking about it. So I'm not saying. Because they're unaware. I want you guys to do something. Listen, listen. I want you guys to do something. I want you guys to take a man, the most crow magnet. Crow magnet. I already say magnet. The fucking dumbest

most, and go, hey man, do you want to have kids? Yeah, man. I want a little one. I want something like that. Do you, you want a family? you want a woman? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want your girl to die during childbirth? No. Do you know that as a black man, your girl is 25% more likely to die during childbirth than a white woman? Do you know what the next question is going to be? Why? They're not just going to go, oh, shit, well, that sucks. The next question is going to be why? I'm not disagree with you.

Why? Why is that the case? Why? And the reason why is because in order- So you think this is the lack of awareness and education? In order to litigate care, you have to create it. Like, and so you have to create care. You have to, and the deal with the male loneliness or whatever it is that you're talking about. Like, you have to manufacture care. You have to say, hey, by the way, even if it's an issue that they don't know affects them, you have to be like, this is, why it affects you. This is why male loneliness affects y'all. And then you believe that even after you

do that and you explain the why, they'll, they will always say they care. Yeah, man, I say this with all right. So much respect. I think you're given great deal of people, great community of people, way too much credit. I don't think he's hurt.

I don't think it has been my experience 38 years on this planet my observed experience from many other women all over the world that the suffering or inequality

of women is not a high concern for most And even with the very clear, very slowly explains reality of it and how it may affect said person, that has overwhelmingly not changed laws, societal norms, treatment, protection of women. So while I would love to believe that a simple conversation with a dumb dumb or unaware person, because they're not just because you're unaware doesn't make you dumb,

lots of things I'm not aware of, I'm not dumb, that that would then change their spirit to care, I think respectfully is a little idealistic of you. Last thing I say, they don't think it's them. This is the last thing I'll say. They don't think it's them. The guy that you're talking to doesn't think he's the one that you're talking about. He doesn't think it's him. What you have to do is tell him how his behavior, how he lives his life, is harmful.

What you have to do is you have to make, you have to create the value in a society where safe women is good for, he doesn't think it's him. So we have to explain it to him. I'm not saying that you're saying. that you have to do that. I'm saying that it has to be, I'm saying that, number one, two things. One, I have to have the freedom to do it. So don't get on me because I'm on the phone

with somebody for two and a half hours, right? That's the first thing. And then be on the phone now. Like, that's the first thing. Like, that's the first thing. Number one, somebody got to do it. So don't get on me because I take the time to do it. Somebody got to do it.

The second thing is, the reason why the conversations are important is because I'm telling you that I was raised by a beautiful, strong, brilliant black woman brilliant black woman but she doaded on me

and she doted on me so much to where I thought I was fully formed and I thought that there was nothing more to learn and I had they don't think it's them and there are some that are lost causes there are some that are too entrenched

there's too much pain there's too much whatever but the reason why you hear niggas talking about you listen to them and they'll talk about situations where they'll be like, well, shit, we can't have nobody in our community that's beating up on, we don't beat up on females, we don't beat up on females,

we don't do that, we don't be females. And then you go, well, maybe we shouldn't call them females. What? Can I, can I just say, I don't call them bitches. I could call her home. I don't understand the woman female thing. Did I miss the memo on that? No, I get in trouble every time I say female.

Why can't we not say female anymore? Look, look, it was told to me and I went with it. But what I'm saying, I think it's the way they're saying female, I don't know. I think they're saying, I think it's the way they're saying female. It's not, because I don't, I'm like, what are we supposed to call ladies? But my point is this. Even the conversation of, I think we're doing too much girls.

Even, even the conversation of the proper way to do that is a conversation where somebody goes, huh. Like, and so to me, every guy that you guys are talking about, the problem is, particularly with men, you have a lot of people who are very societally powerful, you have bad actors, no doubt about it, right? You have bad actors, no doubt about it, no doubt about it. Then you have a bunch of people who don't understand how they're operating in oppression. And if we cast everyone who behaves badly, not who behaves badly. because behavior can only be met with consequence.

But if we cast everyone who is unaware of the delicate nature of a functioning society in the role of a villain, then you'll create villains. You'll make people who go, well, shit, fuck it, you tell me I ain't shit, so I'm really not shit. So if you get told it,

so all I'm saying is this. Male loneliness epidemic, it's an issue. It's an issue. It's an issue. It's an issue. And it should be treated with care. Let's move on. We have to. We've been on this for like a fucking hour.

Joy. Now, people have been able to see that you are the Darth Vader of podcasting. And by way, you know what's crazy? Is this going to come off like I'm getting on women? No. Everybody's going to be so mad. Why, everybody will be like, man, we're on women. No, I don't.

Because actually, my. main function for the women in my life is to not bother them too much, just to get away from them and leave them alone. That's what they want for me. Last thing, for me, to you, because you've been so generous for your time. We got to talk about Hulk Hogan. I want to ask you something. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Green goddess chicken, garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein.

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You are really, in a way, you're incredibly, you're still very young for this industry. People do this until they 65, till they're 70. I just watched something about Barbara Walters. She had the mic in that hand till they took it out of her. you know, you're very, what do you want to build? Like, for everything that's happened to you this year, you've never been more famous. And you've never been more consequential with the things that you say.

You're constantly aggregated. You're constantly talked about what do you want to build now? Well, I gotta be honest with you. the the fucked up part about this year and I don't know if I'm going to get it back is the experience this year

has taken away my joy for the business oh shit so there was a time there's always work involved right like even if you have a career you love there's things you got to do that are

annoying that you bitch about or like you know, a certain week. You might be tired, not feeling it, whatever. But overall, like the saying it doesn't feel like work is when you're doing something that you actually enjoy. I think what happens to me this year took that away from me. I don't know if I'll get that back.

I might. But, and maybe, like, when the callus forms over the wound and, you know, you get away from things, you, you know, it doesn't feel like, tremors go away. So we're not there yet. But right now, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel exciting. Like the big dreams seem like, eh, like I'm going to do it, but I'm not as excited about it. And that's kind of shitty, because this has been a lot, like I said, a lot of work and a lot of passion. But it's been something that I think has come naturally to me because I enjoy it. And it's not

I enjoy talking to you guys, obviously. But the building, the work of it all is, it doesn't feel the same. Like, the dream now is to just disappear. I would hope that you don't. And to be very honest, it's all still very fresh. It's all still very fresh right now. Like, what, I mean, we're still within the year. We're a little halfway over it.

Multiple things have happened to you this year. I think, I hope you don't act on that and disappear. here because I think just as we've enjoyed talking to you, I know so many people enjoy listening to you, obviously. That's why you've been front facing of all the stuff that's been happening because people are interested. I hate just like as your friend and a fan that you feel that way. And I hope that changes for you. Well, thank you. I said this actually before everything happened that like that was starting to be my aspiration. for different reasons.

Not the disappearing part, but like, just, you know, I don't, I don't want to be 70 with a mic. I want to build things for other people to have spaces. I started as a producer

because that's, you know, how you start in the business, but I do like making things. I enjoy that process. And whether it's my show or other people's shows or movies or whatever,

I enjoy the process of creating and making things. And not being from, facing allows you the space to still create but not have this responsibility. And this comes with a lot of responsibility, especially if you're someone like me. And, you know, not to like toot my own horn, but in a lot of ways, I am the only me. And that's a lonely experience, loneliness. So you should be concerned and feel bad for my loneliness.

but like there's not a lot of comps if any to what it is that I that I do in the space that I'm in and that requires a lot and it's it's a responsibility to like the next generation because someone else is very very high up in the business I was telling them about this and they kind of said the same thing in a different way they were like you can't do that you are not allowed to do that

And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, if I want to retire, I want to retire. And they were like, no, you can't retire. There's power, I think, and you being able to walk away and be like, you know, you accomplished, as you said earlier, dreams that you've wanted to. You stand in a space where you stand alone, where you're one of one. So there's power and being able to be like, I walk away from it. But then there's also giving a little bit of power, I think, away to people who would love to see you just walk away.

Well, I mean, yeah, to those people, don't get excited. I'm not doing it right now. I'll be bothering you for a few more years, especially the male loneliness. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think it's like a lot of things. I think it's the political climate. I think it is being famous, whatever that means, has changed.

You're tired. I'm exhausted. I'm very exhausted. There's no question about that. I'm exhausted. but I'm not exhausted from things I want to be exhausted from. Like there's a good exhaustion, right? Like I created, I created man.

So now I'm going to rest, right? Like I'm God. That kind of exhaustion. How you know God was... How you know God was... Tired? No, not tired, but how you know he felt good about it? He doesn't actually regretted it.

I don't know what verse that is. One version of the Bible. Probably not the Trump one, but it. I would say that he regrets making a man. He might have looked and been like, yo man, I didn't get this right. No, he did say. He said it. Can you look at up, Haley? And then the people saw that wild and like right away.

He regretted his choice. Immediately. No, I'm exhausted. I think I should, I think a lot of, I think a lot of people, since there are no gender issues, I think a lot of people are exhausted. I think there's an exhaustion from the news cycle. I think there's an exhaustion of this, this like heaviness feeling just in the world right now. Everyone's mad all the time about something like raw milk or vaccines or men or women or whatever.

The Lakers, you know, someone is mad all the time. And on top of the problems, on top of trying to pay your bills, untrop it, like all these things, just like a thing, thing, thing every day. You also still want to be like a nice good person to people who are shitty. You want to feel empathy for people who are in war. But if you feel that, then there's consequences to that. Like there's just, it's just everything is just a lot. And it doesn't seem to feel like there is a relief space, which is why like I go,

I personally go dark. And that's like my reset for things. Like I consume, consume, consume, because that's a space that I'm in. And then I'll just be like, all right, we're just, we're taking. break from this. Like we're going to we're going to pretend like the world is not collapsing and just reboot. But yeah, I don't know. I think

I think also like as I get older I care about certain things less than I used to. And I prioritize things that matter to me more. My family always obviously matter to me but like I just want to be with them.

I want to be with my friends. I want to do things I enjoy. But I do feel conflicted in a little ways. It's funny that you say that, Rachel, because, like, it feels a little self-important to be like, well, my voice, my voice matters. Like, I need to, I need to keep this platform and talk about things. Because even though my dear friend Van thinks I only talk about men, but I think I have carved a space where, especially in sports, I can bring a perspective as a woman that is important.

Like there's conversations I've been able to have over my career that I know are extremely impactful, like domestic violence. Because, for example, when the Ray Rice thing happened, the conversation was spiraling out of control. It was one of the first times we had ever really talked about domestic violence publicly. and I had never talked about my family didn't even know what had happened to me

and I was able to not just talk about it from a firsthand experience but put a real face to domestic violence for people who had assumptions about what a domestic violence survivor looked like or sounded like or acted like or lived like

and that has been something that I know has been impactful because it's very difficult to talk about those things. But when you're in a space where there are men who are unaware of how to have those conversations, what questions to ask are afraid to have those conversations because they don't want to say the wrong thing, to be able to just freely speak about that and move the conversation forward from a unfortunate, you know, firsthand perspective, that's been amongst many other conversations. something that I have been able to bring to the table.

And I don't know. Do you ever get to the space where you're like, is it my responsibility to be here? You mean in the space? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I feel that way for sure.

Sometimes. You feel that way? When I'm exhausted, when I'm tired, it's like that's when you start questioning things, right? So for sure. I feel like we've talked about this. Talk about what. Like you question like what you're doing or should you be in the space or like, you know, do you feel, because it feels so I try to be self-aware and it feels self-important to be like, yeah, like I'm important to the business and I'm important to the culture and I'm important to the conversation because I have this platform where I have certain freedoms and abilities and I have certain experiences that I can speak to that.

everyone doesn't have the ability to do. Can I just say I've never once having had the microphone thought that I was what I had, I was so self-important. I never look at it that way. I look at it as the privilege to have a platform and use it in the right way. So like even when I was talking about when you were like, yeah, Rachel took up for me, it's like, well, I am in a space where I can speak freely and I'm not really beholden to anybody and I can step up in a way

that I think should be that most people can't. And like that is, I feel responsibility more than I feel self-important. Yeah, maybe responsibility is the right word. And that becomes exhausting when you feel like you have to keep doing it

or when people, and I know you feel this way too when people are like, why haven't you said something about this? Why are you not speaking out about this? Why? There's, because of what we do, there does become this high responsibility, responsibility of you have to always be on it when there's a particular subject, when there's

an issue. And I guess it's a gift and a curse, right? They want to hear from you, but then you fill the weight of you have to do it at the same time. Yeah, that bothers me just because I don't like being told what to do. Like you don't tell me what to talk about. But I'm a yapper. I'm a yapping ass, yap nigger. Like, I'm a, I'm a yapster. You know, there's a guy over here, one of our security guys I want to bring you over to him because he saw me on your pod and he was like, man,

bro, what Joy Taylor like, bro? And I was like, what do you mean by that? He was like, no, no, no, no, no. But you know, I'm a fan. And then me and him stood there and we talked, I'm a yapper. So I see something and I cannot wait to discuss it.

But not because I think. What did you say? Huh? What did you say? You stood there. There's one way I described Joy. Joy is a cool-ass nigga. And I think that, like, I think that really like a cool-ass nigger, like a

cool-ass niggina up, like a nigger. You said something, I'm not going to repeat it, but like when we first started, when we first started, you said something, and I laughed so fucking hard when you said that. I was like, Joy is just a cool ass nigga. And I think so many people have so many, they think so much stuff. And I'm like, I just know so many people that people don't really know that well. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. That so many people don't really, the people are asking me about Rachel. I'd be like, yo, that's a nigger. Like, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a black American negro right there. But I like, I just like to talk. Actually, I think for me, it happens. What happens sometimes is I think that I'm always shocked just how voiceless people feel.

Just like how people, they feel like there's so much going on in their world. And either they don't have the words or they don't have the platform to speak to anyone and no one is listening to them. So when you talk to somebody and they go, man, like, I really appreciated what you said. I can't really think of any times in my life where I've appreciated something that someone said. I've always been like, shit, I wish I could talk to that person about this, no matter what it is.

So, but to you, though, is, like, remember what Chris Christopherson said to, to Shnade O'Connor? Don't let the bastard to get you down. For that, she was walking off stage, and he came up to her, don't let the bastards get you down. You can't leave now, Joy.

I'm not leaving. I don't want to get everybody excited. Yeah. Like, I'm not, I'm not leaving. But one day, I'm going to shave my head and disappear. Collection eight. Okay, before you leave, give us your top five finest niggas in the game right now. What?

He makes it. He really wants you to be all about men. Yeah. You're starting this propaganda. Finest niggas in the game. Who you are right now? I don't. I don't compliment men.

We all. She's decenter. Decentred. I was just joking about it. Do you believe you should compliment men? I will compliment my man. Yeah, yeah. But like men.

Like you should like, have you ever complimented a man that like... Yes, I have. Like see them transform into like full villains from that compliment. I have seen them fully feel themselves after the compliment for sure. But I do compliment men. I do compliment men. I do compliment.

Yeah. do too. I break this rule all the time because I'm nice and I love men. Well, I mean, there's one reason why that exists, right? Most men are just waiting for any hit that you're ready to fuck. No, no, no. I'm talking about like that's not, no, that's not it.

We've derailed again. We're not derailing. I'm saying most men are like because even a man. You have this incredible ability to like create the conversation you want to have. I'm telling you guys. I'm being for real.

Most men... Like male lonies became like just genuine good guys. 45 minutes. I'm just being for real. I'm not saying genuine good guys. I'm saying it's a deep little issue. I'm saying most guys, they'll be on the elevator.

And, you know, they might be male lonely. They might be one of these born lambs or whatever. And you go, wow, that's a really nice shirt. I would never say nothing nice to a man on the elevator. That's crazy. And then they go... I like my life. I like being alive.

They go, oh my God. Does joy fucking love me? Is that what happens in your brain? I mean, not me. So the lonely man on the elevator. I would never, I would never. Let me tell you something about elevators, since Van thinks it's women's responsibility.

Don't do nothing weird in an elevator. Okay. We're in an elevator in San Francisco. We're riding up the elevator. All right. Me, Haley, another woman. Minding our black business. And this man's on the elevator.

And he's like, where are you guys going? Where are you guys saying? It took everything in me not to just in his neck. Just net action. What did he look like? He was a white. But it doesn't matter. Why are you asking me questions in a fucking elevator?

I'm clearly staying here. Now I got to kill you. I got to get a new room because you know what floor we're staying on. Hotel, too. Yes. I'm going to our room. I would have gone back down to the lobby. I've already pushed the floor.

I'm like, let this bitch-ass man get up. Bitch-ass man. Let this bitch-ass man who acts weird on the elevator. Get off on the floor. Can I say something? Do you remember this? Yeah. That right there is completely dependent on the man.

I'll tell you how I learned this. No. I was with this dude named Niles. Niles was an Englishman. Niles had more Riz. We didn't even call it Riz back then. Niles was that. motherfucker. One time Niles looked at me and he was like, how much your socks cost?

And I was like, I have no idea. He goes, that's the difference. I was like, fuck. That was a disc, but I respected it. He was like, that's the difference, right? Me and Niles were sitting in a bar called the Hudson, West Hollywood, Englishman. He was over here, worked in finance in London. He's talking to these two girls. He was like, what do you guys live? And they went, oh, we live in, we hold Koreatown. He goes, no, I'm in exact address. They burst into laughter. He meant, I mean exact the job. I'm coming by.

They burst into, because it was nice. Let somebody else, like the nigger that was on the thing, would have said that. If Michael B. Jordan pulls that line on you. It's also who he's saying it to. Like, if we had been the two girls at the bar, it would have been a totally different conversation. They burst into laughter. You let somebody else say that.

You know, my God, Daddy, what happened? But he said it, and it worked. Don't listen to any kind of van that said in the last three months. and as the most important thing. The more supportive thing for y'all niggas to know failure. It's who y'all are and who y'all aren't. Who you are and who y'all aren't.

And who you're not. And who you're dealing with. And you're not, you're not, what's his name, Niles? And you're not talking to, you're not talking to two chuckleheads at the bar. I know you. I know you. I've come home. We've discussed this.

You would, you would love him because he got the little gray now. I do love gray hair. Like, you got the little gray hair. I love some of the thing. I love some salt pepper. Now I love some salt pepper. I love some salt pepper. I love some salt pepper.

Got the McLaren now? Like you love him. But he goes, no, I mean, exact address. Where's Niles? I was just about to say exact address. Yeah. Where's Niles? Exact address.

He lives in Brussels. If you... How many niggas you know that live in Brussels? If a man asked me for my exact address, it's going to be a really bad day. Depends on the man. For that, no. No. Do you understand how terrifying that is?

A stranger? The finest man could walk through and ask for... I'm like, you're crazy. How? fine do you think men are? Even if, even if, I know, I feel like I met, but you have to understand. I feel like I've met all of the fine men that exists. Yeah, there's not one.

There's not a man who is fine enough to be a stranger and ask me for my address. You would, you would laugh. I know, I know you. I think you're underestimating the amounts. I think you're underestimating the amounts. You like some toxic. Listen, I do like toxic, which is why I'm right this out for the rest of the year. I'm sure he's wonderfully toxic.

He's actually a nice guy. Sure. He just knew that that line would work because he knew what was. He knew who he was dealing with. The amount of dick that gets thrown around on a day-to-day basis is astronomical. But what kind of dick? All varieties of dick.

High-end dick, low-end dick, male lonely dick. Y'all, y'all can't tell. Tying dick, big dick. Y'all, y'all can't. There's no one, there's no dick big enough or heavy enough. It has nothing to do with the heaviness of it. to ask me as a stranger what my address is and for me to laugh. He said it in a joking, I got game way.

And the reality was... It's not a funny joke. The reality was, this is the deal. What I know is that y'all put up with shit from the desirable men that you don't put up with from the guys. Of course. All right, that's the point. That is not the point.

Don't listen to band. We also put on a weird in elevators. And don't ask people for their... You're already in it. Not some random stranger. We got to go. We got to go. We got to get out of here.

Hey, I'll fuck with you too, bro. I appreciate that thing you did for me. All right. Joy, we love you. We appreciate you. Love you guys too. Thank you for joining us on higher learning. That's the end of the show.

You think caps off, but you not stop learning. I'm Van Halifton Jr. I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Hi, guys. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI

or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com.