Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Governor Wes Moore and "Across-the-Aisle" Politics. Plus, Diarra Kilpatrick, a.k.a. "Diarra From Detroit."

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

Van and Rachel react to Spider-Man’s big box office weekend before switching gears to talk about RFK Jr.’s on-air meltdown and Governor Wes Moore’s chummy exchange with a Trump official. Then actor, writer, and producer Diarra Kilpatrick joins to talk about Season 2 of the hit show 'Diarra From Detroit.' (0:00) Intro (0:15) ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ box office (8:42) RFK Jr.’s on-air meltdown (23:51) Governor Wes Moore and "across-the-aisle" politics (1:00:42) Diarra Kilpatrick joins the show Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Diarra Kilpatrick Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah, yeah, all, thought warriors. What is up? Highland is on, is Ivy? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsey. Rachel, the nerds won again. What does that mean? Spider-Man, brand-new day. This is huge, right?

Mm-hmm. How was it? I loved it. My nephew said it's the best. Which one, Alistair? Both Alistair and Hendricks. They said they saw it this weekend and they said, is the best one. It's the best time, Halloween.

And I was like, really? Really? Better than I like the animated? It's not better than that. And that's what they said. Yeah. That's what they said. But they loved it.

Said it was fantastic. Donnie, are you there? I am. Did you see the movie? I did. We got a babysitter and I was able to see it. What did you think, Donnie? It was good.

I don't know if it was the best one, but, like, I have to give it some time. I enjoyed it. It was a fun movie to watch all the way through. So I think it was the best time Halloween because I think this is the only one. I've talked about this on the big picture. Shout out to Ashana and a M. Amanda, I think it's actually the only one where this Tom Holland Spider-Man is Spider-Man. I think before he was a spider boy.

He was somebody's little bro and I was getting on nerves. Okay. You know, I am very clear that I have not seen a Spider-Man other than across the multiverse. So that's called? Yeah. Okay. I have not seen a Spider-Man since it was Toby McGuire and he was the black Spider-Man. Oh, so Spider-Man 3.

Yeah. So then you, so you just missed Andrew Garfield, a Spider-Man, who's a great portrayal Spider-Man, then you missed all the Toby McGuire Spirman. So he didn't see, well, you saw Avengers in-game and Avengers. No. Didn't see Avengers. I've never seen an Avengers. I think that we've talked about this.

I don't even know who the Avengers are. I don't want to dwell on it because it's become now a bit and a way to trigger me because it's not a bit. It's not a bit. It's my, it's the reality. Yeah. It's a bit. And it's just not what I watch.

Okay. But I may end up seeing this, but like, my thing at this point is like, I'll be confused, I feel like. Yeah. Will I be, well, I, as now knowing my history. Right. With Spider-Man, will I understand this movie? No. Because it's why do I.

You haven't seen any other Spider-Man? Those three. Wait, so you've seen the three Tom Hollowings. No, no, no, no. The Toad McGuire. Yeah, you'll probably be a little confused just because. And the animated ones. And so you'll probably be a little confused.

but they'll tell you. So this is what Marvel movies do. And just let you guys know, $357 million opening. What's $355? Wait a minute. It made more than $360 million. This got updated.

It went crazy. Now they broke the record. So it broke the record. Hold on. Last night it had not. It had not broke the record. Last night, this is updating. You guys, give it up for Spider-Man.

It broke the record. Hold on. I'm reading this with what I put in the chat, which was it was supposed to end at $355, which would have been $2 million short of Avengers in game. That's not what happened. 360 is the biggest domestic opening of all time. Wow.

Can I ask why? Why what? Compared to, because like we've had conversations where sometimes MCU doesn't do what they think it's going to do. Why is this one doing so well? talk to me. You have to talk for the people who don't know. Yes. Why is this one breaking records? It's a combination of character and context, I would say.

So Spider-Man is one of those bulletproof superhero entities. Talking to Sean, and Sean said this, and he's right about this, even if superhero movies are up or superhero movies are down. What will never be down is Batman, Superman, or Spider-Man. Now, you might have these movies flounder based upon expectations, right? You might have a Superman movie that doesn't go crazy, crazy, crazy. But the floor of the movie is going to be such that it's probably going to be profitable for the studio and cause an uproar, right? Spider-Man, I think as a film entity is actually even more bankable than Superman.

Now, you had two Andrew Garfield movies that came in a little bit light. But I think there's context of why those movies even came in a little light. The amazing Spider-Man, I think, was confusing, the first Andrew Garfield movie, was confusing to people because it came only a couple years after Spider-Man 3. And so people were like, why are we rebooting this? Yeah, that was me. When we are so invested into a Spider-Man, there wasn't enough time between that. That's how I felt. But do you know why they rebooted it?

Why? This is interesting. so Sony doesn't own Spider-Man Sony licenses Spider-Man so what happened was in the 90s there were a lot of comic book characters that of course were very valuable but Marvel as an entity did not have the ability to make those characters

into television and film characters they had done some stuff but they didn't really have any deals right so what they did was they licensed characters to big movie studios. Now, when you license a character to a movie studio, there are terms around that. And one of the terms for Sony was that they had to

make a Spider-Man movie. Just in the film side, they had to make a Spider-Man movie every couple of years, no matter what, or the rights would revert. So it didn't matter after a certain time. Every couple of years, there was going to be a Spider-Man movie in production.

So Spider-Man 4 with Sam Ramey and the whole group doesn't They're not going to make the movie. They still got to make one, no. And so when they make the Spider-Man movie, they rebooted with Andrew Garfield very, very soon. That's not the same thing with Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers owns Batman.

So if Warner Brothers decides that for 10 or 15 years, they're not going to make another Batman movie, they don't have to. They own the character. They own Superman. They don't have to make it. Marvel owns these characters. They don't have to do it.

So when they came back with Andrew Garfin, And I don't really feel like he got a great shot because people were still thinking about Toby McGuire. And let's be honest, the movies didn't really blow people away and knock your socks off in the way that some of these films did now. Now, as those movies failed, Sony goes, okay, what do we do?

What do we do with Spider-Man? Because we have to make a Spider-Man movie. There was this Sinister Six movie that they were talking about making, which is all Spider-Man's villains. We can't make that because the Amazing Spider-Man 2 didn't go crazy. That is why the deal with Marvel happens. Well, the best way to continue to make Spider-Man

and films and have those films be profitable and be a part of a larger cultural zeitgeist is to make those movies already in the established MCU as co-productions. Then after that, you saw movies like Morbius, movies like Madam Webb, movies like Venom, because those are films that have to come out every couple of years in order to keep the Spider-Man licensing rights with Sony. All right. So that's why all of that happened. But now Marvel can do whatever it wants and they're going crazy.

Globally, $932 million. Now, to Donnie's point, Spider-Man Brand New Day is a lot of fun. It's a great movie. It is not quite as good as I expected it to be. Not quite as good as I expected it to be. But I say the same thing about this movie that I say about The Odyssey. Oh, I finally saw it. What did you think?

I was really gearing up of like, oh my gosh, this is going to be three hours. Didn't feel like it. Even at the end of it, I was like, that's it. I wanted more. I loved it. It's so good. Right.

I felt about the Odyssey that the Odyssey is so good. It doesn't matter that it wasn't quite as good as I thought it was going to be. I feel the same way. I actually get that. Yeah. It's good. It's a $4 billion movies here in 2020. That's exciting.

Maybe I'll go see it. Pixar Story 5, Michael. And then a Supermarie. Galaxy movie you will probably get back there with doomsday and maybe even Dune three oh Dune three yes yes Dune three yeah I thought you said Dune three and I was like not familiar with that Dune yes I am I'm up on those you up on Dune I'm up on Dune I do I do actually all right now we're gonna do like a gigantic tonal shift here because now we got to talk about RFK Jr who is not a

radioactive spider swinging through helping people he seems to be a fucking Cooke who crashed out on CNN on poor Donna Bash. Is it Donna or Dana? I thought it was Donna. I don't know. Maybe it's Dana. It's pretty sure it's Dana. Dana, nigger, nigger. Her name could be nigger bash for all I care.

She's a lady from CNN. Let's do data. I'm just joking. Donnie, give us the audience. You are the HHS secretary and you are talking about things that that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country. And it is something that causes problems for people when there is not anything.

Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy or do you see your job as telling the truth of the American people? I see my job as telling the truth. And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It's one of the most study things out there in science. You're repeating it like a parrot.

You're repeating it like a parrot. I've actually read the science. You don't want to come back here and debate the science. I'm not debating this. Of course you won't. No, because all you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, trust the experts. That's what you during COVID.

Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, about mass, about social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID. He was lying and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. And now you're rolling out the experts again to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of. Okay. Well, guess what? That is my job to talk to people. Your job is to talk. Am I allowed to talk? Yes. Yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can. And what we were doing, what we were doing in COVID and still,

with regard to these vaccines is getting the best information, the best science that we can and putting it out there. And sir, what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate. Oh my God. Oh, my God. So you felt what were you entertained? I feel about this just like I feel like about brassers every once in a while I need to see some white on white no

every once in a while it's like Do you know what browsers is? Okay Hold on so you know wait a second wait a second no because don't judge me because I can say that to a lot of people

I can say that to a lot of people and they wouldn't know no one's judging you No one's judging you. Do you know what it is? I know you know. You love white women. So what I'm saying is every once in a while as a change of pace,

because we cover a lot of black on black on this show. But every once in a while is a change on pace, it's a change of pace. Jenna Jamieson smells like sex. You watch that, white on white. Let me ask you this. Do you think CNN should have done this interview? Yes, absolutely.

Why? Because it is very telling. Not just this interview. So I can bring back. I'm sorry guys. creepy Uncle Van came out again. Not just this interview, but another interview where Elon Musk was on the economist.

And he was asked on the economist about the fact that Doge could have possibly led to some deaths of people in Africa. Yeah. Not Doge, taking away funds from USAID. Yes. USAID. And his response was to get so rampant. to be so upset and continue to say zero people, zero people died.

When number one, that's very, very likely to be untrue. And number two, you could tell that he wasn't in any way interested in having an intellectual conversation about some of the ramifications for what he's done. His pride was injured rather than dealing with the reality of people on the ground, which is the same thing that just happened to him, which is. very telling to people about who is fit for leadership and who is not fit for leadership. The reason I asked that all those things were very evident. The reason I asked that is because it's not the first time that that's been evident, right?

We watched his confirmation hearings. And if you didn't watch, they were headlines everywhere because this is a man who was overseeing a lot of different departments, not just CDC, which when we talk about vaccines, one of them being Medicaid and Medicare and he didn't know the difference in how they were funded. He was confused by it. We've seen RFK Jr. be underqualified. This is a man who's a lawyer, right, an environmentalist or an advocate for such. As Dana says in this interview, one of the most prominent voices on anti-vaccinations.

We know that he has no experience, no degree, public health degree, no medical degree, no healthcare training in any sense of it, no training of science, which she also points out. So we know what we're going to get with him. Very similar to what we've seen when he's been challenged in any kind of way. He flips it on her, which we see in this interview, which I enjoyed, right? I thought she did an excellent job pushing back. She was so well prepared in being able to combat anything that he said. But of course, he's like, show me the study.

He's yelling at her. He's saying things that aren't true about numbers in regards to COVID, about our numbers compared to international numbers, about how effective the vaccine was. And we know that he's a flip-flopper because we know the way that he was when Trump, who they always seem to not talk about, was the president during this time. We've seen how critical he was of how President Trump handled it. We've seen how critical he was continued to be when he was running for the office, for president. And then we saw him flip-flop the moment that he got the nomination to be the head of HHS.

So to me, I ask the question. of course I enjoy seeing him being made a fool out of and seeing him trying to tell Dana, I see you're flustered when the actuality is he was the one who's flustered. I enjoy seeing all of that. My question just in general, out of curiosity, is do we even need, does it move the needle anyway? Does it help some, does it help in any way? Does it change the opinions on people who might have vaccine hesitancy? I mean, we saw her question him about the measles in particular, which was, has totally happened. under his watch. And we see him flip it on, oh, well, that was tied to religious communities. No, it left those communities. And there was an outbreak outside of it. The numbers don't lie. The numbers didn't rise because of COVID and lockdowns. It happened under your watch. It's continuing to happen. To see him being called out on that is great. But does that actually, he's not going to, they're not going to remove him from this position. He's continuing to be problematic. And a point that I wish would have been pushed on a little bit more.

in the interview is what happens in the next pandemic because people think, you know, there's their experts that say that it could happen in another 10 years. Like, what are you doing now to prevent that? What are you putting in place rather than what we constantly see them do is go back and blame a prior administration, blame the prior person in charge, live in the past, rather than live in the present so we can be effective in the future? I wish there was a little bit more conversation on that, but is any of that going to help the American people when it comes to health when it comes to all the stuff we're seeing with our food with the FDA, all of that. So that's why I say, did we really need this other than pure enjoyment?

So we're going to talk about this. Let's go to the Westmore topic right after this. So we can get to what FD Signifier was talking about. But the answer to your question structurally is no, right? He is the head of health and human services. It's not going to change. It's not going to change because he's at the top. And part of the reason why he's at the top is to do what he's doing right now.

So throw raw meat to a bunch of people who believe that their fundamental human rights were revoked during COVID. And they want, they have an ax to grind. Yeah. And they want, you know, a pound of flesh. And he is their sword. Donald Trump is their sword. Even though Donald Trump initiated Operation Warp Speed to get the vaccine to you. And bragged about it.

How fast it came. But he is their sword. And the society that we live in right now prioritizes weapons over brain cells. So whoever is your sword, your avenging angel is the person that you put your faith and belief in. Not the person that's going to make you smarter.

And by the way, it is not the right that has a monopoly on that. That is, we're going to talk about that a little bit. So part of this is the intellectual k-fave that FD-Signor talks about, FD-Signifier talks about in this video. But there's something else here. To people who can be influenced. Okay. To people who are watching, you get to decide whether or not that person has the disposition to make policy about your health.

Whether or not that person who is clearly invested not into the truth of this particular matter from a scientific standpoint. standpoint, but into their own personal beliefs and cult of personality. Right. Now, if we want to continue to empower people that are overinvested into their belief system and their cult of personality, then you will get the measles. The measles will hit you. They'll hit your kids. You'll eat fucking leafy vegetables and you'll take a shit.

You know, maybe we should all start doing that in the spring. So we come out in the summer just fucking going crazy, man. We're down seven to eight pounds. We look great. We're on the boat together. Maybe that's something that we can spin this to be a positive. but you have a choice in the present and the future of your society. And that's measles or not.

That's it. It's easy. We had measles to figure out. Smallpox had been eradicated by 1980 because of vaccination, because of Edward Jenner building on the tradition of African, Asian, and Indian people who use variolation and insufflation and all different types of methods to protect themselves against pathogens that, lived in their goddamn natural world, pathogens, virus, whatever it is.

I'm not a doctor. And we had this stuff figured out. We had measles figured out. But you guys want the freedom to have the measles. Have at it. He wants you to have that freedom to have measles, bumps all over your stuff, letting your kids die. I'm just being for real.

But it's important for people to see that there was no way for him to stay rational in that conversation. Yeah. when he was accused of having been a part of this thing that makes people more sick when that's the antithesis of his job. Yeah. I mean, I want to be clear, he does end up saying in this interview that he does believe that children should have the MMR vaccine. Right. But what he wasn't seeming to admit and what I hope people understand is this is a man with, as I already stated, absolutely no training or experienced to even have.

this position. Anybody who had it prior to him has been some type of medically trained individual deserving of it. Nothing to back that up. Yet he has constantly pushed an idea that makes people skeptical about vaccines, ideas, I should say, and vaccine hesitant. And that has contributed. So whether or not on your website, as he tries to tell Dana, I've said children should get it, everything else that you put out there and that you've been the rhetoric for decades has been. hesitancy to vaccines, erroneously putting out that vaccines are linked to autism, even though he tries to say he didn't do that.

He has very much so put that information out there. That is the kind of stuff that makes people say, hmm, maybe I shouldn't get that. So it doesn't matter that you have it on your website when everything else says vaccines can be a problem. So this is my deal. Once again, you know, the question for him is whether or not he thinks the invention of vaccines are a public good,

whether or not he thinks that's a public good. And then we can have a conversation about that. We can have also all types of other conversations about things that we were told during COVID that did not end up being true. Well, that plays into it. And so, like, the reality of having those conversations actually kind of takes us back to our understanding

of the scientific method and about how we should approach things when they are novel. Right. about what we think and then what we learn and maybe lessons that need to be learned from the scientific community about how they best advise people in this era of increased skepticism

and online kookiness. What is the best way? What are the lessons that are learned? But it doesn't seem like anybody wants to actually have a conversation that kind of informs all of those things. What they want to do is assign someone as their cultural mascot, they're avenging angel to go out and collect scouts.

Yeah. So, you know, what are you going to say them? I forget what I was going to say. It was, I mean, we didn't really talk about the Fauci hearings because it is what it is. But to your point, I thought it's a very good point of having the conversation of how to combat people who are, the person who's heading it is pretending, you know,

that he's a doctor, like a scientist, that he has this knowledge because he's read all these things and he has a full understanding of it. He is literally embodying, what other people are doing. They are using their fingertips and Googling things and thinking they have a doctor's degree

or a full understanding based on knowledge that they're getting from the internet. That is literally what the head of HHS has done at the same time. So how do you combat that? How do you? Why would there be a plan,

at least under this administration, there's never going to be a plan in place because that is literally the training and experience that the very head of the department has. What are we doing? Every once in a while, it just like dawns on me. That's like, that's Bobby Kennedy's son, man.

God damn. Kennedys. The family continues to denounce him. Oh, they don't like him. Oh, they put out full like statements. He does some fuck shit. They put out some statements. They've never done anything wrong.

Anyway, it's not true they have. So look, Westmore and Markway Mullin. Now, we're going to have a conversation about Westmore talking to Markway Mullen here, but I think this conversation is going to be a deeper conversation. about our expectations of political figures and how much of that this stuff that we create for ourselves in terms of the lore that we create around this we're going to wrap this into a video made by the great fd signifier about why he doesn't make more political signify videos if you're unfamiliar with fd signifier he is a cultural commentator and a video essayist on youtube he's made some just aggressively genius videos about different things me and fd don't obviously always agree. Actually, he was on his platform one time talking about some things I maybe didn't agree with him about.

But we always find each other making each other better when we talk. And his videos have made me a more concise thinker. Not a more concise talker, though. All right. So West Moore is catching some flag. Donnie? All right. Maryland Governor West Moore is getting some flag for this chummy exchange he had with

Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen at the National Governors Association summer meeting recently. Let's hear from Westmore. I talk to this guy quite a bit, by the way. Do you? He does. And I answer your call, too. You do.

And actually, and I want to thank you for that. Yeah. And also I want to thank you for being here. He should have Googling, though, because I thought he's better looking than that. We're doing our best, too. But I also just want to take a moment to say thank you. You know, first of all, for being here. And because your presence really does matter.

and you know the level of responsiveness that we have had the level of communication that we have had it has been it has been very real and and i just want to say uh that i know i speak for a lot of governors here when we say we really do appreciate it and there has been an absolute difference in what we have seen from the start of the administration to now so we just want to say how much how much we appreciate that uh and the the question that i do have is just around the security grants people criticize this this went viral on threads which i was on i saw your post It's true. I said about threads. It's a fact. But this went viral on threads because people did not appreciate what they felt like was the level of friendliness between Mullen, who is a MAGA acolyte and, you know, the current head of DHS, taking over in that role from Chrissy Nome, whose job it is to operationalize ICE and deploy them onto American cities, which is something that they haven't. stopped doing. They're more low-key about it than they were before in terms of these big surges. But ICE is still harming people, still killing people. Yeah. And Westmore, who they think should be above the fray of speaking to Mullen as if they are friends or

colleagues or coworkers or whatever. I don't know why when I watched this the first time I didn't hear that he took a job at his appearance. which not as good looking as I thought is what he said. He said I should have Googled him should have Googled him so you didn't know what he looked like

at all which is not true that's not true but it's just a jab I get the opposite it's what do you mean people look at me they go

more handsome than I thought actually people say that about me too so don't act like you're just trying to always take it oh wow you look so you look better in person

and I'll take that all day you can tell when someone don't filter anything you can tell when someone meets you and they go hey I'm vending they go I'm like, all you didn't know, did you? You noticed that because he's really been losing weight

and he's been seeing the results, the, we've been hearing a lot about, oh, come on, man. We've been hearing a lot about this kind of stuff. But good for you. Nobody said you weren't. Nobody said you weren't. But like, you've been filling yourself.

Bernard, say that another man, me is handsome. Say it. You're okay, man. Ah, damn. Bernard almost got to. He puts you back in your place. He actually, he Mark Wayne Mulling you. He did.

He marked Wayne mulling you. Okay. We have the conversation on this podcast multiple times about politicians and being chummy with the other side. More so, though, we talk about it, though, from the left to the right. We don't really see that from the right to the left. And being that we are left of center, whether it be on different levels or not, we are watching and feeling what is happening in our country. And so when we see someone who seems to be buddy, buddy that is on the left, when we see all the problematic things and the detrimental things that the right is doing, we get upset. You know, we have these conversations about it feels like, and specifically when you're talking about the Department of Homeland Security, it is life and death.

We have seen people die constantly at the hands of ice. So when you see someone like Westmore, Governor Westmore, who is revered within the community, who has, I would say, a very high approval rating, kind of laugh with someone like Mark Wayne Mullen of all people, who is the head of DHS and who is extremely problematic and in light of the deaths that have even happened as he has been the head of ICE, it's like, well, I don't want to see that. So immediately, I understand the reaction that people have. We talk about it here all the time. When I look at someone who I like what I see them doing politically, laughing it up with Mark

Way-Mullin. So the criticism is fair. And I think that it is necessary to hold our politicians accountable. And it is necessary to say, hey, like, that's something that I don't like. What I don't think is necessary is when we go scorched earth and we want to burn it all down because you see one thing that your politician that does that you don't like. That is going to lead down a road of like the point of no return. That just can't be because people are imperfect.

So are your politicians and they will do things that disappoint you. I think that what we have to do is when you see something you don't like, hold that person accountable. But at the same time, look at the totality of what that person represents as a politician here, Governor Moore. So I'm watching you have a laughing exchange with Mark Wayne Mullen. I'm watching him say, I talk to him all the time. I watch him take a jab at you. But then I think what has Governor Moore said about ICE? What has Governor Moore done if I'm looking at the totality in regards to his stance on ICE? Am I judging him by this one thing or am I looking at everything that he's done? He is a governor who has taken a hard public stance against the administration's immigration enforcement.

He has signed laws banning Maryland police from entering 287 agreements with ICE. He has called ICE's presence at Baltimore Elementary Schools deeply disturbing. He has labeled the Trump Vance immigration policy as very dangerous and he has criticized, untrained, and unqualified federal agents after there have been deadly ICE involved shootings. That exchange to me doesn't take away everything that he has done. Although I don't like it, I'm not going to say completely turn on him, which is what I feel like happens when you see these clips or these viral moments. We don't look at everything.

And there are other politicians that we like that also do certain things. And sometimes we don't, maybe because you don't know as much of what they do, we don't have the same energy that maybe we did or what I'm seeing people do with Governor Moore here. So I think that both can be true. I don't like what you did. But at the same time, I'm not completely going to turn on you because I'm looking at how effective you've been and that you still use your voice to be very anti-ice. The other part of it is, I'm sure people were looking at the fact that he was saying that they've talked quite a bit.

And I think that you have to look at, this is why I couldn't be a politician. I don't know if I could be political in the sense where I have to work with the other side when I hate so much what you're doing. But as a politician, if your goal is to look out to do what's best for your constituents and to represent their needs and to take care of them, that does require. are you to have conversations with people you don't agree with. That is a part of politics. So you might not like hearing that they talk on the phone, but you have no idea the context of what it is that they're talking about. And you also don't know what, I mean,

if you look at the totality of what he represents, he's probably using that time to have an open line of communication to be able to push his needs, the needs of Maryland constituents in front of DHS in order to protect them. So there's nothing that you said that isn't completely on target, right? I think politicians leave behind records. I am much more critical of politicians that say all the right things, but then do nothing. Right.

Because once again, we've talked about it. You went to a restaurant, I'll say it again, just so you guys know. You went to a restaurant and the waiter was the most charming, educated, affable, amazing person ever. But you never got your food. You would be like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Politics is the only game to where somebody's disposition and accomplishments and something else means so much more than whether or not you actually get what they're saying they're going to do. Right. So the only thing, I would rather a waiter.

that comes out and he says, hey man, what the fuck you want to eat? And I go, could I have a hamburger, please? All right, we're going to give them a motherfucker hamburger in a second. I'll be right, motherfucking back. They come back out, the hamburger is great. Or at least if you're the greatest in the world, somebody that goes, hey, you're not going to eat today, but let me tell you why the kitchen is fucked up. We, at this point right now, don't even get politicians that will speak honestly to the dysfunction

inside of their own political engines. We'll even get people that come out and go, hey, this is something that we're not going to be able to do and let us tell you why. They are playing team sports in a way that is really interesting. Okay, so I agree with everything that you're saying. I will say this, though, about you or maybe me not being able to be politicians.

Okay. It's all with love. I think we actually do that, the getting along with people who we have disagreements with and being chummy with them, I think we do that much, much more than we actually sometimes admit. In our real life. In our actual life. I think in our actual life, I know people that you know, you know people that I know that when it's not time to talk about that shit, we don't talk about them.

Now, we've thrown a bunch of parties together and being cool with each other and all that type of shit. And you never see these people around. But like, there are people that you know in a professional manner that you know you're not on the same political team with. Sure. And you're cool with them. Like, you know that that's a thing. So I think a lot of times in, and some of those relationships are professional, right? I think a lot of times, yeah, most of them are.

They're all are, right? I think a lot of times we actually hold politicians and other people like this to a standard that it is very difficult for us to actually abide by and our actual lives. Is it because the stakes are higher when it comes to a politician? I think that they are, but. Because they have the power to make. policy. But I think that that works the opposite way.

Okay. So if you're telling me right now that Westmore or anybody else, take Westmore out of it, right? Anybody else, if the result of having a bad relationship with DHS means that ice might end up in your city, well then what I would expect him to do is put his personal feelings and animus for whatever on the side and deal with this person in a way that gets funding, where he can bend them on that. The example to that is Zoroam Dani.

Zoroam Dani called Donald Trump a fascist. But Zoroam Dani, in order to govern in New York City, needs to have a working relationship with the federal government. So it might make you feel good for him to go to the White House and call Donald Trump a fascist to his face, which he kind of did when he was asked. It might make you feel good for him to go down there and indict him like in the Oval Office,

but that hurts the people that voted for him. So there's a game up there that has to be played in a different way because it's not the same game that we're playing. Right, right. But at the same time, man, I would just, there are people who I know that are like this. There are people who I know that live a life of such energetic and political purity that they don't have to make any of the decisions

for themselves and about themselves. I know straight up activists. I know people who make their own clothes. Like, I know people who don't fuck with it at all. Anarchy, radical. And they look at me every single day and they go, man, when you're going to stop fucking half stepping and come over here? And I'm like, you know, at one point,

I'll decide to harvest seeds with you and grow and we can just sit around and polish our guns all day and talk about the revolution. I'm not there right now. But it's important to know those people because those people are actually the people that push the line. and make more radical policies a little bit more moderate, and that's very important. But this is where I want to get into the FD Signifier video,

which I hope that everybody watches, because FD Signifier just made a video about why he's not going to make more political videos, and he uses wrestling to distill this. Now, before we get into what he actually said, I want to have a conversation about K-Fave. Do you guys know what this is? You know.

Donnie, do you know what K-Fabe is? I don't. Does anybody hear know? No. So K-Fave is wrestling mythology. So it's the existence of unreality that exists inside of like the W-W-E. Right? So in this video, I'll get to what FD Signifier has to say about being a mark.

But before I do that, I want to explain K-Fave. K-Fave is like, okay, give you an example. Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan hate each. other. The k-fave is the fact that that's real. That's the mythology of wrestling. What he talks about in the video was the first time that people started to realize that not just that wrestling was prearranged, that the actual fights weren't actual fights, that people actually realized that the storylines behind the wrestling were also fake. And it's when Hacksaw Jim Duggan, who is this all-American, great fucking wrestling, by the way. Oh, Hax saw Jim Duggan. Um, and, um, and, um, and, um,

The Iron Sheik, who was supposed to be this sort of Middle Eastern heel that represented everything that was anti-American to where they were caught by the police for drunk driving. And Haxaw had weed on them. The Iron Sheik had crack on them. Okay. So this went public. But people didn't even care, wrestling fans didn't care that one guy had crack and the other guy had weed. What they cared about was the fact that they were in the. the car together.

Because if the Iron Sheek is in the car with Hacksaw Jim Duggan, what does that mean? These guys work together and they kind of like each other. They're friendly. K-Fa was destroyed for me in wrestling when wrestlers from this organization,

really pioneering organization, called the clique, which is Scott Hall, Nash, the 1-2-3 kid, Triple H, Sean Michaels, the clique, right?

Two of the guys went to the WCW, the other three guys stayed in the WWF and then after a match they all got in the ring and they hugged and raised each other's hands and that started going around who was viral before viral people started talking about it and we're like, what the fuck do you mean? Like what the fuck are you talking about?

Like how could that happen? Because these guys are in the same intellectual stable together coming up with ideas and stuff but they broke K-Fave to say what's up to their brothers. what FD Signifier is talking about is a lot of the politics that we get into it's k-fade it's them maintaining an energy

of unreality acting away on Sunday shows and acting away in debates and acting away when they're under the lights that they simply do not act with each other when we are not around and he has a word for people

that believe the political k-fade that they see. This is not going to be an easy video for some of you guys to watch, but I think that we should play it. Go ahead. A lot of y'all are marks. Mark is another wrestling term except derogatory. A mark is someone who thinks k-fade is real. It's someone who is not smart enough or aware enough to be in on the crafting of the fiction that is professional wrestling. It's someone who does in fact have to believe that Iron Sheik and Haxar Jim Duggan are mortal enemies in order to be invested in the show. A mark believes that what they're watching and consuming is real and often will feel

insulted, maybe even resentful when shown the opposite, because it makes them feel like they've been tricked. In the world of wrestling, no one wants to be seen as a mark because marks are annoying and they kind of ruin everything. They take things to seriously, make people uncomfortable, and can be obnoxious to the performance as well. Cue up this classic moment that has been memed a million times in wrestling communities. It's still real to me, damn it.

I love that clip. I love that clip, too. That guy refused to believe. That guy refused to believe that the k-fave was false. Right. Wrestling was real to him. It's real to him. The storylines, the rivalries, all of it, the people.

All of that. My personal story is this. I enjoyed wrestling more once I realized, once it was thrown in my face the existence of K-Fa-Fa. That's because you're a creative. And I think that you Yeah, 100%. But for someone who like that is their form of entertainment,

they revere the wrestlers in it. Like that is a world to them. They admire, like they're on the outside looking in, but they're fascinated by it. That guy crying, that was his whole world. And when you tell him about K-Fab, you are crumbling his entire world, almost his existence.

to a point. He built his entire identity around, you're telling him he built his entire identity around a fake world. You, the creative, is like, wow, the storytelling of it, the way that they're acting this out, how like committed to the bit they are.

You see it in a more artistic way. Of course. But you can't actually appreciate the tradecraft of professional wrestling unless you are cynical about the storytelling, right? The reason why professional wrestling is so entertaining is because these guys are sublime athletes.

They are some of the hardest working people in entertainment. I'm talking about 280 days a year on the road for the people that are really working. What they put their bodies through when they're working inside the rain, when they're working outside of the ring. Some of the genius of the bookings and the storylines, that is actually what is to be praised. not whether or not Triple H and Sean Michaels don't get along

not whether or not the Rock and Sockham duo you like them between the Rock and mankind like not the Rock and Sogduel not the Rock and Stock connection shall I say not whether or not these two guys actually love each other

and have found this weird kind of connection right this is exactly the way we should look at these politicians the trade craft that you see from these politicians is what you should be focused on. Not whether or not you actually hate the other side. I don't think that they do.

I think that they hate a lot of the political ideas over there. But I think if you were really being cynical about it, what you would really do is vote for the best wrestler. What you would really say is what is the person, who is the person, should I say, that has the ability to do this thing at the highest level, level and maybe I can push that person to get something out of it for myself because I'm telling you guys right now if you sincerely believe in any of this you are a marquee is right if you

sincerely believe there are certain people like when Tiffany cross is on Abby show she's not fucking playing all right but those people are evident if you sincerely believe that these people are at each other's throats, that this is not all the same group of people to a degree. You're just wrong. And I don't understand how many times we have to come back here. How many examples of failing policy, failing politicians that have to be presented to you for you to realize that that's not what's happening. What's happening, I'll say it again, the reason why the DSA is stressing the Democrats out so much is because that is actually a battle that's existential. that's someone that looks to usurp their power.

They are actually destroying k-fabe. But guess what? I'll tell you something else. They k-fab and two. They're k-fabing too. The question is the people that are actually there for you that come from your same community that represent you, do you support them? The people that are around the corner with the community groups and all of that stuff. I'm not going to go into this whole fucking thing.

But I'm saying, man, if we are going to be effective, we got to let go a little bit. Not of our feelings against fascism, but our belief. Yeah. The fandom of it, which is what he, like, there's this really great line in what FD Signifier says. And he says, fandom is not where politics are done. It's where politics die. And the more you wrap up your feelings, and he talks about this, this emotional release in the person, you're going to be disappointed, one, because that's not the thing that you need to be focusing on.

You need to be focusing on the meaningful action. What are they doing? So it's this, and I guess it's just human nature, right? We're obviously seeing it with MAGA. That is what MAGA is. You're looking at the person as being obsessed with who they are, this fandom of this, this idolizing of them. But the more you do that, that is where it's going to be problematic

and you're never going to get the things done that you need to be done. You need to be focused on the person who's actually acting on their politics, their policies, what they want to implement. Are they implementing these things? Not the political performance of a debate or how they said something that went viral. That's not it. It's what they're actually doing that's going to help you.

And that gets confused. And when that gets confused, nothing is going to get done. And that's the point of what he's saying. We got to take the fandom out of politics. And look, there are people right now that are recognizing the unreality of a lot of Trump shit, right? Yeah. They are saying, hey, we're in a foreign war with no strategic advantage for the UFC. Hey, I'm thinking about combat sports.

For the USA coming. We're in a foreign war right now. We have the DNA of a forever war happening right now in Iran. And this is essentially, this is just not what you said you're going to do. Yeah. You're like constructing this entire war from the perspective of the same neocons that you criticized when you came along. Some people say, hey, that broke k-fate. What Trump did, that broke k-fave.

Some people say, hey, the Epstein files. What Trump did, that broke k-fate. But for some people, it's real to me, damn it. And that's it. Yeah. I don't give a fuck what the political movement is. I'm begging you guys. You just do not want to be one of those people.

Because once they have you hooked in that way, they can do whatever they want to. Yep. All right. Let's take a minute. All right. All right. What we do now? You know, we got, what happens now?

This is, this is. What do you want to do? This is, I mean. What do you want to talk about? We talked about the ones that I really wanted to talk about. So this is like a choice for you. You got a lighter one. Okay, I don't even know specifically what you wanted to talk about with Bill Ma.

I don't want to talk about. I don't want to talk about Bill Maher. Okay, cool. I don't like them. Not a fan. I don't want to talk about. Okay, you put it. I was wondering which part you want to talk about that.

I wanted to talk about something that he said, but it bums me out. I don't want to I don't I said no you can't make me talk about you're talking to Donnie you I'll apologize I'll never talk to a black woman anyway but I can't be no one can force me to discuss Bill Maher okay let it be known you put that in there okay so let's talk about it listen it doesn't matter if I put it in the podcast I was just curious as to what it was because I because I because you thought that people were really honest sin it you thought that just because a woman consented that she had to go through with it I can't believe it wasn't that she had to go through with it,

she understood what she had to do on that stage. She walked up. I wish you would have... You guys are gone. No, no, no, that's Bernard. That's Bernard who said that. You guys are...

I didn't say that. I wish you would have changed your mind before I had to be subjected to watching a 25-minute interview of Bill Maher being Bill Maher. Well, you didn't have to watch the whole interview. Well, of course. But you didn't specify the one part.

I watched the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. I don't want to talk about it. Learn anything. I don't want to talk about them. Learned anything. Were they mad at J? We don't have to talk about that.

Wow, why not? Fuck it. People would be like, no, they were just, they were just, they weren't, nobody was mad of you. What did they say, Jay? What did they say? They just agreed with Van saying that you can change consent. You can change consent, yeah.

Which we all agree. Consent is an organism, right? You get all the way to the end. Hey, I'm not feeling it. Bella, jump out of the bed. And I don't disagree. Fellas can change your mind. Fellas, you don't have to have that dick work the way she's safe.

So you, that dick can change his mind. You don't have to do that. I think a lot of times fellas think we have to do it. Can I speak up for the men? A lot of times... I don't like where this is going. They feel like they have to do that? I think there have been men in situations

to where they feel like they have to deliver dick. And fellas, guess what? You don't have to deliver dick. You don't have to deliver dick if you don't want. Just to be clear, she's consented to it. Yes. And they don't want to, but they feel the pressure. I want to be very clear because this could be totally misinterpreted.

Yes. There are times when, I mean, because there might be other things. What if you, what if you feel like you playing the game? You know, she comes over. You want to madden, right? You don't want to, whatever. But she's going to make you feel like not as a man if you don't do it. And you feel like you have to do it.

Bernard, can you please? Like, you've never, have you ever been in a situation where you felt like you had to. You had to get busy because she was going to be disappointed if you didn't get busy, but you wanted to do something else. Yeah. That never, y'all, y'all can't fathom that that's a thing. I didn't say it wasn't. We never said that.

I'm not just, I'm just, I'm listening to you. I'm telling you, fellows right now, just know this. It's not your job to deliver dick on command. You're more than that. Piece of meat. You want to play the game? Play the game. You want to go for a walk?

Yes, consent is not specific to just. one gender. Yeah. And I just, you know. Or not. But do you, but, but, okay, have you ever been in the situation where you felt like you may be pressured? I've never felt that way. Yeah, that's probably true.

Okay. So, um, uh, so we're not talking about him. We've already talked about him too much. But I would like to talk about this before we get to D.R. Kilpatrick, who's on the show today. We're going to talk about her show, uh, D.R in Detroit. I want to talk about, uh, my past. D.

D. from Detroit. You are from Detroit. We had an amazing conversation to her about. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Two things I want to talk about.

I want to talk about my past. Donnie played a video real quick. That's my man, Tony. And then... There's no fucking way that's you. There's no way. There's no way. That's me.

That's me. Right there going crazy. Boom. Bang, bang, bang, bang. Bang, bang. Well, why don't you go get up and do it now? If that's you? There's no way.

I don't get up. Hey, hey, oh, oh, oh, yeah. I know all those moves, me. Well, wait, I don't have to take your word for it, and I can get it right from the stores. Move the desk out the way and get busy. That's a long time ago. I'll do it with you.

That's a long time ago. No, you're nimble, you're losing the way. It wasn't that complicated. I could pick it up. Boom, boom. Donnie, run it again. This is my favorite part when I go, ah, ah, ah, ah. There's no way.

You don't think that's me? No way. Who is that? Who's that man? That's me right there. Why are you just jigging in a barbershow? Is that a dance studio? Oh, daddy. Oh, daddy. Oh, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, yeah. Oh, oh, look at my little movie. I don't know that shit. Ah. There's no way. So look, let me tell you all what happened. There's no way. So obviously that's not me. So I posted the video.

It does look like you, though. As if it were me, I want to give love to the two guys who love dance at this actually is. All right. Because it is a funny joke. That's hilarious. But what you never want to do is take away from the two people that's really living like that.

Because a lot of people believe that that's me even still. It does look like you. It does look like me. But a lot of people still believe that it's me. It is not me. Who it is dancing right there is on Instagram. Tony Rain official and official Ricky Fontaine. This is a video that was posted.

sit on both of theirs, they are going back in time or remember the times that they got busy together. But if you play the video again, I'm not going to lie. I sent that video before I posted it to a bunch of different people and went, look at this video of me dancing back in the day. And Kalika was like, that does look like you. It does look like you, but I knew. I had never seen your knees do that.

But the reality is, I used to like dress like this. This is the way I used to. used to dress. Like legitimately I used to dress people you say I used to dress like I was hooping at all times. Look at it. Ah, they're going crazy. Don't you love to watch people dance? Love to watch people dance. Go out and

support both once again at shit, my this font is small as shit. At Tony Rain official and at official Ricky Fontaine. They were great sports about it.

I was obviously joking, but that was them. That's funny. Keep those videos. I thought it was you until you moved. Okay. Or he moved. This is what we're going to do. Tony Rain, official, and Ricky Fontaine.

We are going to recreate this. That would be great. So since people like Rachel don't think that I can get busy like this, Tony Rain and official Ricky Fontaine, we are going to recreate this. Okay. I want to know because you should be able to get it done pretty quickly. No, okay, it's not going to be quick.

So then I need to see, then I want the progress video. I want day one or hour one to hour five. Okay, I got to tell you something. So I'm losing weight and so I went on the basketball court this weekend. Like, look, I should be,

I'm like, I should be, because I was out there actually kind of getting buckets at like 285. Okay, okay, okay. But what was happening when I was getting buckets at 285, 290 is I was playing all the time. Okay.

Man, I hadn't played in a while, like a long time. And I went out there. Jesus Christ. It's a different type of workout. God is amazing. God is amazing to have made someone like myself who was so terrible, who was losing the ball in the air, still shoot. Everything hurts. It's basketball.

It's something that I've done so much. Okay. But yet, I was fucking over my own self, beating people. people were like oh my god the move the move the move the move out there blowing jumpers falling it was terrible i was also playing though with new custom orthotics oh okay so it that's what it was is there something specifically about me that makes you hate me i don't hate you i would never use that word towards you you like for me to struggle you said you were struggling yeah you this is your story but what i expected was and maybe this is my

fault expectation what I expected was you what I expect sometimes out of my friends because you guys are doing the same thing is go get them Tiger energy go get them tiger man you'll be get better that's not what I get from y'all what I get from y'all is fuck you fat boy you know why because I've been super you've talked about losing weight and I'm like you look great keep going you look good I can tell These are things I say. The reason it's a little harder with basketball is because you're always talking about how magnificent

you were. No, no, no. You all, like, let somebody come here. So then, and let's not forget the years of where you would put the date of when you will be dunking, your dunk day. It moves. So, like, it quite naturally, it's a different, it's a different react, but now you got the orthopedics.

Yeah. It's a different reaction that I have because of the way you talk about your basketball skills. I never said. I was the man like that. I'm very encouraging. Called you handsome today on the podcast? Yeah, no, you didn't. I agreed.

You agree. See what I'm saying? It's, you know, it doesn't have to happen because I do the same thing to you and I'll admit it. But, like, what I'll say is that I never said that you couldn't hoop. I said that you couldn't guard Katelyn Clark, which is something that you said. And I stand by it when I was in my, when I was around her age. You could guard her. Yeah.

Shout to Ricky Fontaine, Tony Rain, official. Can't wait for the video. You know what we're going to do this? You know what we're going to do this. the week of the midterms. Before the midterms. Nice distraction. Like before a nice distraction.

I'm going to do this same thing of the week of the midterms. I'm going to do that dance routine because I feel like I could. We got a long way to go. That's just the arms. You're already sweating. I'm sweating because I, uh.

It's hot in here though. It is hot. I'm just sweating the whole car. You got it. It's only a couple eight hours. You got it. I don't trust you. That was in first.

I am so excited. I'm so excited for this video. I don't trust you. I believe you have rhythm. I really do. I don't doubt that. Like, you delivered the line, but there was nothing behind it. I don't believe you in any way shape of it.

I've seen you dance. That was me trying to be sincere. Okay. I've seen you dance. I can, I'm a great dance. Yeah, you can dance. Yeah. So we're going to see what happens.

Okay, we're not going to talk about this. On Thursday, we're going to talk about, Detroit Police Commissioner allowing street justice to happen in Detroit which... We should have talked to D.R. about that. We should have talked to her about it. I didn't realize that was Detroit.

We did not talk to D.R. Kilpatrick about that, though. We talked to her about her amazing television show. D.R. from Detroit is on Paramount Plus right now. Start streaming July 29th. Second season. Second season. Second season, July 29th.

Morris Chestnut, Lish Rashad, all kinds of people. Dominic Perry. all in the show. She's going to join us another side of this break. All right, guys. There is a show that is on right now, Paramount Plus, premiered July 29th. The show is called D.R. from Detroit. Yes, you said it right.

I said your name right. Yes. Oftentimes people don't. You'd be surprised. Wow. Yes. People will watch all the whole season and then call me something completely different. It's crazy.

Well, I asked Jade before. Thank you, Jay. And Jay, and Jay went, D.Ara. Yes, rhymes with T.R. Oh, okay. Yes. Queen and House. All right, De Arachia, Kilpatrick joins us today on Higher Learning.

Look, you, the show is back. Thank you for joining us, by the way. Thank you for having me. First of all, y'all have black nerds in a chokehold. Who? Y'all too. Really? Absolutely.

I have so many friends who are like, if you don't get on this podcast, I'm a fall apart. And I think my cousin might be in love with you. I'm in person. I'm saying, I'm saying why. But you might want to say,

hey, Suatu. Hey, Suatu. Because he was going to come apart if I didn't end up on this podcast. I'm here, Suatu. What does Suatu do?

Is he a janitor? This is a conversation we're having off mic, by the way. He is not a janitor. He's a numbers guy. Oh. Okay.

He got money. He has two daughters. Okay. So they take them. In private school. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know. He's doing well, though.

He's a sweet guy. So the show has premiered on July 29th on Paramount. I'll go back and I'll say it again. You are from Detroit, season two. It is a mystery drama comedy show. Yes. And there's another mystery drama comedy show that has everybody going crazy right now in the other land, which is, of course, like Widows Bay, right? Oh, interesting.

And horror. That show is also more hard. It's more horror to me because it's like there's legitimately some jump skips. Huh? You don't like it? It's too scary. No, it's not scared. I want to start here with you because your show has such an interesting blend of tones.

Yeah. And I do that show, see that people are into that. When those two shows are compared and people are, have you heard the comparison before? I haven't heard the comparison before. No. That's how people were telling me. People were like, it's a black widows bay type of show. with a sister that's talking about

what's going on in Detroit. I'm like, that's a cell. How does it feel when your show is like positioned as the black version of something that exists somewhere else? I don't have a problem with it. I mean, nuance is lost on the internet. You know, so sometimes people have to just make

compare bold, blank comparison, crass comparisons even. So I've heard like the black version of only murders. I've heard the black. It's probably better. Yeah. I've heard black Nancy Drew. Nancy Drew with Lurys, Nancy Drew from public school,

Shakisha Drew, yes, all of that. But yeah, I mean, I just want people to sort of get the point as quickly as possible. And then once you watch the show, it's so many layers, there's so much depth to the comedy and to the drama that I don't mind the quick comparisons as long as if it's going to hook you into the door. So if somebody's never seen it before, like how would you describe the show? I would describe the show as an amazing ride, an amazing adventure. You know, I play a Detroit public school teacher who got ghosted.

She couldn't accept it. The sex was too good. She thought that the connection was too good. And so I go looking for him, find out that he might be at the center of a cold case and a mystery and that I have to solve. So that's season one. And season two, it's like, you know, it's like another book. Like, I'm such a mystery person. So it's like another mystery novel.

And this season starts off. Glenn Sherman comes to me and a family heirloom has gone missing. Yes. And that sends me into a wild kind of another murder mystery. adventure. I did not get the comparison with Widows Bay. Okay. I did not like Widows Bay. And I might be the only person who felt that way loved your show. Thank you. And or love your show. It's still on. And I think maybe because I just relate, maybe because the black woman that is the lead, the humor, I get way more than the humor that's in Widows Bay. I don't know. It just felt more natural to me. But again,

maybe because as a black woman. But what I also love is like Detroit, even though I've only been to Detroit once, I don't know that much about Detroit. Detroit is very much a character. Yes. Within the show. What is it that you want maybe outsiders

who don't know Detroit as much to understand about the show that maybe corrects a misconception or a perception that they have or maybe even complicates it? So I love being from Detroit. It's one of those cities where if you're from Detroit,

you love it and people are always like, what is that about? And I really do think it is a deeply black city. Everybody in the city is black. So when you go to school, it's like the smartest person in the class, the dumbest person, the prettiest person, the prettiest person. There are no ugly people, but we'll say, but everybody's black. And so you don't equate blackness with anything specific, right? And then you just kind of relax and get to be whoever the hell you want to be. And so I think that the people in Detroit are really, especially the black people, really unabashedly themselves. It's like we can't help ourselves. And so that is something that I try to infuse in all the characters, that there are these portraits of people who are just so specifically themselves.

I think that's part of it. And then the other part is, you know, the humor in the city. And also not denying that Detroit can be a dangerous place. It just came out as one of the two poorest cities in the country, you know. it can be a really dangerous place. And so plopping in these larger-than-life characters inside a world that can be, that keeps you on your toes, keeps you on like the razor's edge between comedy and drama always. That's what it's like to grow up there.

And that's kind of what we infused into the show. How'd you get here? What you mean? 1900s. How'd you get here? What's your story for people that? Because there are a lot of young creators that want to be where you are. Yeah.

I'm sure you still are on your ascension and you want to be where some people are. But a lot of people are looking at you and say, I want to be that. So how did you get there for those people? Yeah. And I have to remind myself, too, that I'm inside of answer prayer because it's true. Sometimes I'm like, but what about this? And everybody has to watch the show and all this kind of stuff. But I'm inside of answer prayer too.

You know, I was just a little girl. Skinny legs are pressing girl. My mama always. That's me stemming, guys. So I grew up in Detroit. I always did theater. I was that theater nerd. you know, the little kid on the block that was always reciting.

Anytime I need somebody to recite Still Out Rise or something by Maya Angelou, I was always there. And I went to NYU, studied drama. Tisch School. To school of the arts. I think, you know, what's been unique about my upbringing is my mother was the, like, artistic one. She loved theater and the arts and all of that. And my father was always into politics. And so through that, I saw the city through.

such many different lenses. You know, my brother was mayor for a while. My father ran campaigns and then my mother had me at the jazz club at five or six. And then I went to NYU, studied theater, came out to L.A. Like, I'm about to take this shit by storm. And pre-scandal, like write pre-scandal was not the most pleasant place to be a black woman, especially a dark-skinned black actress. So I started to write as well.

and I moved into, I made my first web series called American Coco, which was about. And P.S., I forgot this. American Coco came out as you were becoming the Bachelorette. So on an ABC website, we were like side by side for a while. Sisterhood. Sisterhood. And look at us and look at us now.

And so I did my first web series, and I called everybody that I knew, or I emailed everybody I knew and said, I made this web series for $3,000 of my own money. And I happened to have done a play with Viola Davis's husband. And they called back and said, can we be a part of it? And they jumped on as executive producers. We made it at ABC Digital.

Got nominated for Emmy. It sort of cemented that the writer, the writer-actor thing was for me. And then I just developed and developed and developed. And that whole ride, what's the most important lesson? I think A, never give up, you know, that's the thing. It's like you just have to kind of be relentless. That's the end. The other thing is like, never let go of your voice.

I developed. That's the girlfriend calling. That's Isaac is the bird. It happens. I don't regret it. I don't take it back. It's okay. It's okay.

But you're the perfect man? But you're the perfect man? I said, I'm not a perfect man. Oh, yeah. None of us are. You know, we're just out here trying to do what we can do. I think I developed a pilot at Amazon. We went to pilot and I remember feeling like this isn't quite what I wanted to make.

So I learned that lesson too of just like hold on to what you want to make and what you have to say. And I think the other, my favorite thing is like, I heard this quote and I don't, I don't know who I can attribute it to, but it was like run towards the year. used-sized hole in the world. And so I'm just always trying to do me as specifically as I can. And I think that's where all the tones come from and all the crazy things that are in my head. It's like, I'm just trying to do me as completely and totally as I can. Do you think that that's necessary for like a young, I'll say black actor, actress

coming up that you can't just wait for the opportunities? Because I know you were doing like guest roles and different things like that and that you have to create. in the current landscape of the entertainment industry, is that a must right now? You know, it sucks. I hear people all the time, like, I just want to be an actor. Why am I now doing social media, doing this, producing? It is sort of part of it right now.

I mean, I have been blessed to have those opportunities like I was on Perry Mason and I got to play this housewife in 1930s and do. But those roles are sometimes few and far between. I think if you are committed to working, I do think that you either. have to develop new skills to do that or join coalitions and make community where, okay, you could say, I don't write, I don't direct, I don't want to do any of that stuff, but you need to find a small group of people that can come together and do that for sure. And why not?

It's easier than ever to make something and put it on your phone. How much of you is... Ooh, y'all gave me a, like church. It's what you're saying? Engage with the interview. How much of you is Diarra that we're seeing on screen and how much of it is you like acting or you had to invent part of that role? You know what? Everything that I write has a fair amount of me in it.

I think people think because I play Diora, it's Diorra. But even a gangster, even my neighbor who's a gangster who's like in therapy and super into spirituality, that has a lot of me in it too. So I try to put, I try to put honestly my friend Gary Lennon, who. who's a writer in the power universe, he said to me one time, when you press send on your script, if you don't feel just a little bit embarrassed, you didn't go deep enough. And so I am constantly, I think, embarrassing myself a little bit by putting in there the kind of secret pages of my diary. And I think people, they don't always know what's exactly me and what's not. But, you know, this season my character is also struggling with whether she's going to become a mom.

mom or not, if it's time, that might be why you relate to it because even though it is a mystery comedy and we're very comedy forward, I do try to put the inner life of a black woman on the screen. I really want you to come home with this black woman and get in her head. And it's a wow, right in there sometimes, particularly in our society. So yeah, I try to, you know, get as close to the bone as I can because those are the real conversations that I'm having with my girlfriend. And I want people to feel seen. And I also want other people to know, oh, it's complicated in between those ears of a black woman. Yeah.

There's definitely an emotional through line throughout season one and into season two, for sure, with everything else. When you write characters as a black woman, do you always feel it necessary to write characters for black women? Yes. I'm obsessed with black women, though. I mean, my mother raised me. I'm just, I've been the product of a girl's girl. Like, my mom raised me in the company of her

friends. My cousin's Oatoo really ain't my cousin. That's, his mom was one of my mom's best friends who kept my hair braided when I was younger. You know that that's dying? The fake auntie, the play auntie, the play cousin. Right now, and I'll continue to indict your generation

over there in Z corners. Uh-oh. It's dying. When I was at University of Tairs, elementary school like it's 1989 I remember one of my teachers said

it seems like she was a white lady that it was almost like she felt like she was in dangerous minds we were in like the fourth grade or whatever

but like she was like she was like it seems like you guys are all related the reason why she said she's like everybody here's cousins it can't be true

but it was true because everybody's momas was friends some of us actually were cousins I keep trying to tell people my uncle Nush had 42 kids

so I'm related to a large, hey man. Nushan? That's too many kids. Nusian, right. And what is that? It's too many. It's not, I can't say that.

Did I make any type of judgment about to watch? Are they all, well, that's the African name. I'm saying, though. Is Nusian? It's not, it's, it's Southern. Right. I like, I like it. He had 21 kids with his wife and 22 kids with the woman of the block.

Also, just true. And I'll just be honest with you. you guys. We're not here to judge. Uncle Nusie. I'll judge. Okay. Okay, cool. He's dead. But like, but I'll say this. May you rest. May he rest in peace. May he rest in pleasure, it seemed like. Now, it what? Fertile man, yeah. Fertile man. Yeah, not missing. We don't miss shots, except for me, no kids. But I'll say this. Get to the question. The question is, back to what it is where we're talking about. The question is that like that that you're talking about, that familial type of deal

we were cousins we had the lady that my aunt Linda wasn't my aunt Linda of course not until my Uncle Ray came home from jail then she married right that sounds good then she became but even that we're losing that recipe

that doesn't happen as much when I talk to my like younger cousins and people of their ilk and stuff and even younger they go that they don't do that anymore how do you feel? How do you feel? about the fact that, you know, you're reflecting that. Yeah.

We're talking about that. But we are growing out of things that made us community and culture before. I wouldn't be here. Listen, like, I was raised by a single mom. Of course, my dad was there. But the older I get, I realized, wow, he came and picked me up every other Saturday. Now, now as a mother, I'm like, that's not a lot. You know, my mother needed her tribe, her community.

And what filled in the gaps were all these play aunties who one kept my hair rated, one kept me fit, one had me listening. into NPR. One taught me about travel and they really did sort of make me who I am. And I think that's the reason why I love writing black female characters. I will always, when we were doing American Coco, we had a scene where it was like six black women in the scene. And I remember somebody saying, I'm willing to bet this is the first ABC production that has had six black women all speaking in one scene, you know. So it's just, it's, and it's the most, it's the most, it's the most, it's the most fun for me to show all the different sides of black women and when we get to play off

each other in the show. To shout out to Dominique Perry, who plays my best friend in the show. Fantastic actress. Fantastic actress. And we just have a good old time. This gives me a thing about something. Have you seen poetic justice? Not recently, but yeah, of course.

I've seen it. There's a scene of poetic justice where they crashed the family reunion. Yes, yes. And Maya Angelou. Yes. Angelou, Angelou, Angelou. We still don't know. Yeah, but she's in the scene and they're talking to Janet and Pock and everyone.

And the scene demonstrates the cultural familial reverence that older black ladies had during that time. Right. Like you're in there and there's wisdom to be given out. And that wisdom in our families would always come from these matriarch. who we had this incredible reverence from. Yes. I actually feel like with the toxicity of the conversations that we're having right now, that that's threatened.

That I feel like us having, I feel like when we are trying to like, oh, no, there's so much stress and strain between black men and black women or at least as performed on the internet that, The fact that when I had questions to be answered and I needed to come up with answers for these questions. Yeah. Mother, grandmother, aunts, all of that stuff. When somebody needs to show me how to do something, dad, people like that. But hey, how does the magic in the world work? My mom, my aunt, people like that.

Yeah. Do you guys feel that or no while we're on this thread that we can get back to the show? I feel, I love this thread. I feel like black women are tired. I feel like Of answering these questions Of everything Like you know

I just I feel like there's Since I feel like there was never We needed a national Probably international reset after COVID Like I felt like everybody's mental health Took a hit during that time And then it just was compounding I mean I love that quote what it's like

We are in unprecedented times We're an unprecedented times again It feels like every week it's something different. And I think that, like you were saying, there is a strain inside our community. I also think, you know, MAGA went straight for black men. It was a very smart play. And there's a little bit of division there. A little bit distrust? I just think black women want to feel like the community has us. And I think sometimes we don't, we don't feel that way.

And so it's complicated. I feel like sometimes we don't feel that way because we aren't having conversations like this. A lot of times there's a huge misconception because we're having these conversations and litigating them on social media or, you know, like watching somebody else's podcast. And I feel like that takes away from like even that we will have conversations here and we can get like we can work it out in real time and get. through and understand each other of like what a black man needs versus what a woman needs.

And it's like, oh, well, you heard this from this person online or from the, and it's like, well, no, if you actually talk to people, you'll understand that it's not quite necessarily what the perception is out there on social media, on the internet. It's a lot different when we can connect like this. Yeah. And I think that there is more grace and understanding given when we have it face to face, rather than when we're behind a screener on our phones. A hundred percent.

But I also think it's interesting, and I'm going to bring it back to the show a little bit. In the second season, you know, my character spent the whole first season looking for this guy who had been kidnapped twice. Now she has him, and he has a bunch of trauma, and he's crying a lot, and she doesn't know how to deal with it.

And she feels a little bit like, this is not so sexy, the black man that's doing all this crying. And it was interesting to me, you know, somebody online was talking about get rid of him. He doesn't have a job. He's crying all the time. F this dude.

And I was like, whoa, that was so interesting to hear from a black woman, this twice kidnapped black man that has this trauma to work through. And of course, my character is a little out there and a little narcissistic. So, you know, she's like, I might have to get rid of this nigga. But to hear the viewers at home also

echoing that sentiment was really interesting. I do think it's not just black women that are having a hard time. Black men are having a hard time too. I do want to acknowledge that. And I think that sometimes both of us feel like to talk out the other side of my mouth, I think both of us sometimes feel like we're not seen and protected. So you have black men that feel like they can't cry, they can't work out their trauma in front of their women.

And then you have the black women sometimes that are like, nika, work out your trauma because I want a baby or I need this next thing in my life. And so I think it's an interesting conversation. about how we allow each other to be vulnerable. Yeah. And also get what we need from from our from our black brothers and sister. So you know my my husband and I talk all the time about do y'all watch poor minds? Mm-hmm. So Lexpeed, that's my girl. But she has this quote where she's talking about how if a dude is

looking for parking, she can't stand it. Yes. She'd be like, you ain't no leader, bro. Like, why are you expressing to me that you can't find parking. That's one of the best podcasts out. Yes, yes, both of you guys. And so my husband, I talk about that all. Just the other day we went to Jazz at Lockman, he was like, well, let me let you out because I want to look like a leader. So you and a baby get out and I'll just drive around and look for parking myself.

But yeah, there really is a thing about how vulnerable can we be with each other? And I want to explore that in the show. You work with your husband. We were talking about that before, which is impressive. I have to say, because I just, I've never been in a situation where that is something that I could do or where we worked in the same industry. But how much of what you guys have, the conversations you have off camera with your other, maybe couple friends or even single friends is put into this. Because that's a really interesting narrative to have in season two because we literally talk about all that and about the misunderstanding and what a woman needs to feel safe to let her guard down and what a man needs to feel safe and how there just seems to be. disconnect.

Is that a discussion maybe you guys had and putting that in the season two? All the time. I mean, yeah, because sometimes when something's bothering him, I have to be like, it's okay. Can you please tell me what is bothering you? Because I do think men carry that burden sometimes of like, I cannot bother my wife with this. I'm supposed to like go over here and work out my emotions and then come back and be strong.

And so sometimes I do, I have to give him permission to be like, what's going to, you seem upset what's going on. I would say that the foundation of our marriage is walking and talking. We just realized that recently we were like, oh, that is literally what this whole shit is built upon. From back when we were at NYU, just walking from Manhattan to Brooklyn on a nice warm night and just talking about life and everything.

And in a lot of ways, those conversations, that's not she's got some might calling. That's nuisance. I don't get my fault. that's just the way the universe works out we all heard it it's the same thing that's the way the universe wait i left my phone in the green room so i think i'm the most professional person in the room that is the way it works out thank you lord i don't mind um but yeah but yes we we put a lot of our conversations into the show and i put a lot of my conversations with my girlfriends in the show

that's how the the whole thing started about my girlfriends talking about being ghosted or ghosting and i'm like wow this is really prevalent out here, huh? So yeah, so if you have a conversation with me, you are not safe. It's going to show. It's probably going in a show in some kind of way, if it's interesting to me. I want to talk about Morris Chestnut. But before we do, I want to

say something about what you said earlier. Like the Lex P. saying, you know, the guy, you're not a leader. You ain't no leader, bro. Why are you expressing to me that you can't find a place to park? She's half joking. But I'll say this, I'll say this, though. Everyone, free yourself. Let go of the expectations of you.

I'll put it to you like this. You, what used to happen when I was younger is I would be like, hmm, sometimes I look for parking for a long time. She's saying I ain't shit. All she's saying is I'm not for her. That's okay. It's okay. I shall cry. I will watch a movie.

I will cry. I'm sitting, you know, I'm sitting at the end of Hamnet. And I'm watching Hamlet and I'm like, it's going to happen. Yeah. Like,

it's going to happen. I might as well just surrender to it. Yeah. It's over. It's going to happen. Ricky, you got to see the, I'm watching a movie.

It's going to happen. It's going to happen. Yeah. If your guy can't cry, I'm not your guy. Right. By the way, if you need something else,

it's so many people. I think, I think we are also bound to this belief that we must be for each other, that we must find perfect ideals of one another. And if I'm not, Lexpee, guys look at Lex P. And they go, oh, that's what I want. They go, that's what I want to experience. I want a woman that's that beautiful, that has that thing.

And you can have a woman like that. That also doesn't mind if you look for parking. But if you try to put yourself, part of me growing older, was realizing that it doesn't matter who it is. Black man, black woman, my mother, my father, I'm making apologies for who I am. Zero and none. I feel you. I do think, yes, if you're a crier and a woman can't stand, you crying and you're going to cry at a commercial, then that's not the woman for you. But the parking thing, I could give y'all some game.

Like, just drop the woman off in front and say, let me go. go fine. Let me go handle this on my own. But do you know why I wouldn't do that though? Why? Because if you're that pedantic, if that bothers you, then you're not for me. I don't know. But there are plenty of things on the other side, right? Like, I cannot at all take at all somebody being a smidgeant, rude, or unkind. Right. I don't give a, I don't care at all. Yeah. If you, you could have been, you could have had a bad day. We all have a bad day. But if you are a smidge, rude or unkind, particularly to somebody in service, done got out here. It doesn't matter who you are. I don't know. I do believe,

well, I believe if someone is rude to the waiter, if somebody is rude to somebody, they deem as less than or in a subservient position, whatever, they will be rude to you. It's just a countdown to them revealing that behavior to you. So to me, that's revealing something deeper, but I do think this parking thing needs to be studied. Like somebody needs to write their dissertation on this because my husband is so deeply for me, but I feel like I'm, I have never been more irritated with him when he's complaining about looking for a parking space and baby that's why that resonated with me so much

I had to tell her immediately. I was like is this daddy issues? What is this about? But there's something about the damn parking. Don't say shit to me. Just find a parking spot. But see, and I understand that what is that about? It is not bother me. Don't bother you at all.

I think socialization has to do with things. And like, wait a minute, but what I'm saying is that's cool. All of that's fine. Absolutely zero. problem with it, no issue, whatever. But what I'm talking about is, I'm letting you know that there's a guy somewhere that's freaking out about that

or thinking about something like that. And bro, I'm telling you, man, there's a girl that's not even going to notice that you're looking for a parking spot. That would be on her phone playing. That would be true. She's used to being late. She's going to be like,

damn, she's going to look around. She's going to be like, it's jammed up. Y'all going to bond over the parking. I love that. She's going to be like, everybody's looking around and like everybody part, baby, you know what, we can go we can go park further and take an Uber. It's somebody

out there for you, but if you obsess over the one thing that somebody doesn't like, you just setting yourself up to be in this endless cycle of arguing about whether or not we should split the rent, pay the full rent, park, do whatever, whatever. And it's just

at a certain point it's useless. Well, I'll talk about it in therapy on Wednesday. We'll get into that. We'll start. There. I'll talk to Dr. Crossman. We'll start there. All right, Morris Chestnut.

Yes. Now, he's been around for a long time doing his thing. But we're kind of in the chestnut asance. Yeah. The chest asons? The chestaceans. I like a chestace. The nuttons is better.

Now, what do we think should Morris Chestnuts' Renaissance should be called? Should it be the chestacons or the nuttisans? It's definitely the nuttisans. Yeah. The nutter signs. Yeah. We can make it easily to Morrisissons, but we don't want to do that. No, no.

Chessna's better. Another science is better. I love to see performers like this who have been Star Wars for a long time. He's on your show. Yeah. He's also Watson. He's also around, like, Moore's Chestnut is having a moment. Yeah.

Where people are remembering just what an awesome performer he's been for such a, such a long time. And I feel like there's something that's happening. There are younger performers, creators like yourself, creators, like how am I blanking on her name? Quinta Brunson. Yeah. Like that see people like Shirley Ralph, like Morris Chessna and go, Glenn Terman.

Yeah. Glenn Terman. Like, and go, hey, these are people that have so much to give. Let's harvest the talent that they have and show other people why they've been doing what they've been doing for a long time. Long-winded way to get into what made you want to put him in this show. Was he one of the guys that you had up on the poster? wall. You're a kid. You were like, Ricky, why didn't you zag? Why Morris Chestnut? And how you,

what made you want to contribute to the Nusons? Have you seen him? I have. Okay. Yeah, it's tough. This is a full sentence. Um, he was on my wall as a kid, actually. Him, it was that, I think it was the essence cover of all the, like, leading black men at the time and he was there. And, you know, he, yeah, Boris Kujo. It was just a fine asance. Um, is it Kujo? I think it's Koujo. I think it's Cojo, but the niggas is a dog sorry Boris, we love you. We love you too. But yeah, he was

someone that I've known for a long time. You know, there were two main kind of genres of black movies when I was growing up. It was like the Hood film. And then it was like the black rom-com people who brunch. Young professionals mating house. Yeah. And he was in the essential,

kind of quintessential movie of both of those genres. He was in Boys in the Hood. And then he was in the best man. And so he was definitely a part of, you know, my childhood, my young adult years. And then, you know, the character, my character goes whiling in the first season. And it's really all because she's going through this divorce. This divorce just has her spinning. And so we really wanted to find someone who felt like the sun has kind of fallen out of the sky.

Like this is more than just a divorce. This is like the sun falling out of the sky. And that just felt like Morris Chestnut leaving you felt like a real bummer. Like, I felt like an audience could go anywhere with you and live through any of your poor decisions after that. So there was that. And, you know, I don't know if I've said this before publicly, but season, I'll tell y'all, season one, we almost had that role cast of Swah, my ex-husband and or my soon-to-be ex-husband. And then at the last minute, the studio came and said, you have to, we have to have a name. We have to have a name in this show.

and we thought we didn't have the money for that. And so it was kind of that gave me a list. I mean, it was days before we were about to shoot. You know, all the handsome. All the handsoms. All the famous handsoms, black handsoms. You don't have to name a list to your ex. Just, I want, I'm curious.

You were on there? Ah, I would name. But like it, but. Van, Lathan. But who in your, forget about the list. More interesting. Who are the black handsoms to you? just did this. Who are the black

handsoms? You mean like new school handsoms? I'm talking about you can, you're making your own handsoms. It's not about new school or old school. Who are the black handsoms to you? Okay, so Love Jones is the movie of my, is the movie that defined romance and all the things for me. So Lorenz Tate is definitely one of the black handsoms. You get five. I get five? Oh, damn. Okay, so Lorenz Tate, Morris Chestnut, obviously. Um,

who I'm going to go Richard Roundtree Nice Classic classic chef When he was on being Mary Jane later I was like the daddy could absolutely get it

He was still fine with this gorgeous chocolate skin I think that about Glenn Termin Same thing We brought up Dom Dom has a little crush on Glenn Yeah I get it We were like ma'am

Who else I got two more you know I'm going to have to put meth in there he's season two he plays my ex-boyfriend season two I got greedy and then I'll end with

damn this is tough I'm it's only one spot left I guess Idris Oh you're going Idris I guess Idris So you're going Idris So these are the black handsoms

for you It's Method Man Richard Roundtree who else did she say Idris Morris And say baby Can I be your slave

Yeah as long as he's got a poem to read I'm there That's a good list Yeah You looked out for black American men You know how fine Because Lorenz is not that tall And I used to think like men

Had to start at six feet So that's how fine Lorenz is That he's standing on poetry And fineness all the way to six two Yeah And he's not aging. How cute was he as Barry Gordy in a Michael movie? Not at all.

I want you to know the van is slightly doing a dig towards me because I had to do a list. Who was yours? Of 2026. That's hard. And it was of the new, like, who's on my list. And a lot of the ones I named were. Byracial Nigerians.

No, they were not mostly byracial Nigerians. No, there was one. Jude is the only one. I don't even know who Jude is. The soccer player. So I was like naming like, like, Anthony Joshua, Jude Bellingham. Maduca.

Maduca. Okay. Oh, you're not actors. You're just in life. Yes. So he's trying to, he keeps looking at me saying, thank you for showing love to Black American. I love your list.

I agree with your list. But, you know, like Van talking about how, you know, Morris Chestnut and what he means to us, just shows like the importance of having black shows. And I know you've talked about it a little bit, but if you can just more of like what the, we don't have like growing up in the 90s, we had so many shows.

shows, so much representation, which gave us some of these handsoms that we talk about. It's true. And beauties. And beauties, and beauties too, of course. Which 90s beauties is all we're talking about right now. How that whole aesthetic. Yeah. Which it never really left. I just want to say, we got that 90s beauties. Anyways, can you talk about like you having your show, the opportunities that you're able to create for black people on and off camera? And why these, you're, shows should exist and then maybe even a little bit talking about I wonder if there was a fear for you seeing your show having to move platforms in the middle of a season and all of that too. Yeah. Well, I'll start with the first thing. I'm the same way I grew up on Fresh Prince,

living single, Martin, all these shows and they gave us this crop of black talent. And one of the things that always surprises me is like Felicia Rashad or Glenn or Valerie Pettifert would be like, I love this writing. I love this role. I love being able to have an opportunity to do something like this. And that's when I stand around and realize, oh, shit, this little black girl from Detroit is one of the only people writing for these kinds of actors. So it's not just about me. Of course, I love my opportunity to shine and to play and to work with these actors. But you'd be surprised sometimes you think that your favorite actors just don't feel like working or don't feel like working that much or are tied up doing other things.

And when you sit down and talk to them, they're not getting offers to do certain things. It's, it's, we are, we are moving a little bit through, I'll say more of a desert than we have in previous time. So it does feel good to be a creator and creating roles, not just for me, but for them. And to be able to reintroduce them to audiences and other ways too. Because even with Morris, like, he's always so suave, so handsome, so charming. I love in this row we get to see. him like get flustered and I love playing with him and poking at him. And with Felicia Rashad, it was like, you know, she's playing this woman who is, as they say, she's not for the streets,

for the streets, but she's in them streets. And it was like really lovely for people to see her, just the range that she possesses as an actor. So that's great. And what was the second part of it? Oh, it was more, you pretty much answered it. Okay. Yeah. Should people watch things because they're black or because they're good. Baby, this is really important to me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for black people and black women. And I think I am always, whether you agree or not, I am always trying to make something that I think is good, something that when I put my kid down and I'm on a couch with my husband and we got our one hour to watch something that is going to fulfill everything that we want that's going to be funny, that's going to be suspenseful, all the

things. I am always trying to make something excellent. I don't give a shit. I think I am definitely one of those people that would support something because it's black no matter what. But I, it's a little shitty. Well, even if it's a little shitty. If it's a, if it's disrespectful to me as as a viewer, no, no, as a viewer, is it disrespectful. Like, who wrote Like who did y'all read it? Did y'all light it? Is what's happening in here? I just think it's disrespectful.

And I think because sometimes it's black people and black women especially, we're so starved to see ourselves, sometimes there's this attitude that if it's black female-driven, A, it's only for black women. Nobody else is going to care. And therefore, we don't need to give it the amount of money that it needs to look good. And that is my pet peeve. and I work every day. And that's also why this crew

bled for this show because we really didn't have the budget to make the show that we made. Everybody just worked their ass off because it's super important to me to see black people on screen and to have them look good and to have it feel

like we put some thought and some energy behind it. So I'm always fighting that. Sometimes I just want to see some old trashy stuff, you know what I mean? But I do really want people to start making black things that are quality, that you could tell the production values are there. You could tell they, you know, they wrote it, they rewrote it, they talked about it.

Even though I don't think it has to be perfect. I mean, it's art, it's subjective. Everybody's not going to fuck with what you're doing even if. But I love taking big swings and bringing black people like we do. in this show into genres that we have been excluded from before. So this is like a hard-boiled detective story in season one, season two, we move into kind of an Indiana Jones action adventure space. And I just love like there's a scene in the tunnels where we're in the tunnels underground

Detroit, spoiler, where one of the characters is in this lion's jersey. And it's just like something about those two things just feels like a breath of fresh air to me. and I just want us to be able to explore all the parts of the canons that we've been excluded from. But yeah, to answer your question in a million words, I would love for you to support things because they're excellent because you could tell there's artists behind them that are taking meaningful swings and are trying to put something kind of meaningful into the world.

I want to real quick. I want to posit something to you. And it's going to be milly-miled and typically hypervigms. for both like I already am. What's your sign? I'm in Aries. Ooh, okay. What's your birthday? April 16.

Okay. What's your sign? I'm a Virgo. My husband's in Aries. What are you? Taurus. Oh. So I have a...

Why do people always say, ooh. So I have a thought. Okay. I want to know what you think about this. Okay. So, hmm. I think that when black people make black bad art, particularly bad television shows or movies,

that sometimes people think that the things are bad because the people are black. Ooh. And let me tell you what I mean. I watch a ton of stuff. Everything that comes out, I go see it. White people are making so much bad art. For sure.

They're making stuff that's lit poorly. They're making stuff that doesn't seem like it makes sense. Doesn't have a point of view. Doesn't have a point of view. Like some of the top bad art comes from my, Love it, MCU. Over the last five or six years, movies that are stitched together

that you can tell the studio got too involved with that you can tell don't really actually have a perspective and a point of view and stuff that looks like slop on the screen and all of that stuff. And they have hundreds of millions of dollars to make this stuff. And when it fails, nobody really says

those white people should have did a better job. Right. But oftentimes when we put stuff out, Like, people talk about the Tooby movie stuff. I got to be honest with you about the Tooby movie stuff. Some of that stuff is entertaining. I love it. And a lot of it is entertaining.

And even more so, man, what I'm seeing when I watch that stuff is somebody who wrote, got the money together, got their people together. Amen, yeah. Edit it, finished, and then distributed it in a movie. I'm not talking about Tubi stuff. No, I understand that. I'm not saying what. what you're talking about, because I think everything that you said is fair.

I'm saying, a lot of times, and I'm not going to name any names, but there are clear like, hey, I'm going to put something out, you're going to watch it because of branding or whatever.

But do you ever think that we're too hard on some of the stuff that we put out because there's either a respectability involved or we are twice as embarrassed when something is black and not good? Because there's a different relationship to it. Well, it's so hard too because we're defining

people define good and bad in all kinds of different ways. For me, I fuck with Tooby. In fact, we have a two be episode. Four is a Tooby episode where we sort of get lost, get trapped in a Tooby Movie set. Find our way on a Tooby Movie set. I'm a genius. I have a lot of respect for them.

They say Detroit is a Toobie Movie capital of the world. What I see is artists just like you're saying, creating opportunities from themselves to have a very specific point of view. That to me, as what I want to see when we talk about art. Some things I don't like, but I'm like,

ooh, I see that this has a point of view. This is what somebody really wanted to express this thing. I get upset when I feel like, because even not having money doesn't mean things. Even the lighting, you could still write the script. You could still have a really beautiful performance. To me, when it's just the business model has absolutely nothing to do with art. It's just like, let's throw this together.

let's put this out and let's move on. That to me is just lazy. Maybe that's a better word, like lazy or sloppy. There's no care in it. That is what I want to see change. But yeah, I do think we sometimes, and I'll talk on the other side of my mouth, I do think that black people should have the freedom to fail.

And so I just want to be clear, that's not what I'm talking about. There are people who take creative swings. you know, like I love boosters. I know some people were like, what was going on in there? That didn't work for me. And that's, and people might say that about D.R. from Detroit as well, that's fine. But I can tell that there was an artist that put a tremendous amount of their heart into a thing. So.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't get embarrassed about respectability. I think, you know, I'm so over it. You know, my mother raised me with so much respectability politics. growing up at that time that yes I'm going to cuss yes I want to see black women getting

fucks yes I want to see black women getting their pleasure I mean my friend said my friend said the other day oh you wrote a PSA about being a hoe in episode two I said I did I want black women to feel free enough to explore their sexuality your mom's still with us she's with us baby but she's she's not here here yeah yeah so no I'm not here for the um putting black women into a box or sort of being priming proper just for the sake of it because they don't give up they're not going to give a fuck about us anyway yeah or feeling like you have to be so being so afraid of being stereotyped so that you don't have the freedom to just be like you want to be love that I this is more of a comment this the last thing I'll say I just started watching

simultaneously your show and dreaming will splack yeah uh-huh do you all watch that I haven't seen it But it's really, this is like a congratulations. This is really a compliment to you because the concept of that show is that he is trying to create the show that he is super passionate about that means something to him that he connects with historically. He's trying to tell the story of his people, but everybody wants him to put him in a box or to make him do something that's about black pain or a certain stereotype. And it's this journey of him and he's on a second season of trying to produce. what he wants to. And like he feels like he's sold out a little bit, but he feels like he needs to do this to walk into the door and finally tell a story. And then seeing what you're doing, where you're doing it from your point of view, like it's a mystery, it's a comedy. There's

this emotional through line of like expressing what it is to be a black women in the conversations that we have. It's just a really beautiful thing to be able to watch his show, which I know, it's really good. It's funny. It's a struggle that a lot of black creatives have. And then to see you realizing it. you're both on the same platform. Just a, just a, I got to check it out. Yeah. And that's another thing, too, is what you just said, I don't want to be black pain forward.

I want to be fun forward to. And I think that's another thing. Important black work doesn't always have to be trauma porn. It doesn't have to be like, it's really important that we have this racial conversation. Sometimes it's just, it can still be fun forward, adventure forward, comedy forward. Yeah, you're doing it. Last question for me. Yes.

I have to ask you a slightly conversation. controversial question. I have to ask one every single interview. Great. Your show is on Paramount Plus. Yes, it is. Paramount now has a very distinct reputation to some people. Yeah.

Now, we should say that it had a journey to Paramount Plus. Yes. VET, Viacom Family, Streamer, started off on BETT Plus, ended up on Paramount Plus. Now, people associate Paramount with Ellison's and Skydance and all of those things. and a distinct political point of view. Mm-hmm. There are Black creators on Paramount. Yeah.

Deals with Paramount. They're putting things out through Paramount. Yeah. For people that might have those questions in their mind, how do you respond to that? Child, I don't know. You know, to be honest, I don't know about all of that stuff. Here's what I know. I grew up on BET.

Kenya Barris called me and said, I'm going over to BET and I want you to develop something over there. Who's that? Kenyon Barrett, he's the black, he's the, he's the, the king of the ish world. Blackish, grownish, oldish. He knows. Okay. I know, Barry. Okay.

Shout out to Kenya. Television producer is right there. Kenya's great guy. I like the ish. Like after the kind of thing, Kenya calls me and Kenny goes, hey, wherever you want to go, I'll walk in with you. He's always been down. Oh, I love that.

Keny's the cool guy. Wherever you go, I want to walk in with you. He goes, I want, whatever you want to do, he said, I'll walk in. Oh, oh, I understand. So people don't know what that means. That means whatever you want to develop, he'll walk it into ABC or something for you. Kenya is one of the, you say whatever you want about him.

It's not like, Kenya's a guy that if he sees you're doing good, he's going to help you do better. I truly believe that about him. Yes, very funny guy. And so he says, I'm going over here and come, and I'm like, okay, cool. And I made this show.

I'm like, I love black people. I want to make this show for black people, for a black audience. And, you know, there were a lot of black people who were like, oh, I don't watch, I'm not going to watch BET. I'm not going to watch their programming. I'm like, watch BET, they said. Yes. Black people say that. When I, yeah, you've never heard that? No. Well, it's shocked the hell out of me as well. You're not going to watch BET? Not original programming. Huh. You've never heard that before?

Swear to God. Wow. Well, I don't know these things. But to be fair, I was very surprised by that as well. Or people would come to me like, I saw your show and it was actually good. That actually was always killing me. That's why people don't want to watch it. It was always killing it. So I'm like, okay. And so many times I would say, oh, I have the show. It's da-da-da-da. We're 100% of rotten tomatoes.

It's on BET Plus. And people will go, oh, okay. But no, like, I'm going to get BET Plus. Just that's the end of the conversation. You're like, oh, okay. Now the show has moved to Paramount Plus. Just because we've had these ice cream chugs, we've been to Comic-Con. We've been out different.

We went to Essence Fest. I can't tell you the amount of people who've been like, oh, I have Paramount Plus. I'm excited to watch that. It actually kind of breaks my heart a little bit. Yes. There are even black people who weren't watching stuff on Plus. And so there were, I want to say, and there was great stuff on Plus.

You know, there was my show, there was Average Joe that Dionne Cole was on. Miss Pat show, co-created by Jordan Cooper, who's a literal genius, that little boy wonder. He's like 30, but I still call him a boy wonder. And people weren't, some people were tapping in and some people weren't and some people weren't as a matter of principle, which is now we're on Paramount Plus. We went from a few million subscribers to 80 million subscribers. As a creator who, you know, not only like we talked about before wants to work and also wants to tell black stories and put a plethora of black talent on TV and a plethora of black stories and a black experience on TV, there is, you know, there's some excitement. about being exposed to a larger audience and to an audience that already has the platform because you already know, people are like, I'm not signing up for nothing else, you know?

And so it's nice that, you know, the platform is, is, there's just more consumption on that platform. I am, for the record, you know, incredibly liberal, incredibly progressive. like I said, my father was in politics. One of the earliest things I would do on the weekends is go and pass out campaign literature. And, you know, I have just, I'm very, I'll just say liberal and progressive. So there might be things that politically I wouldn't align with. But right now, I'm doing the absolute best that I can.

and I'm focusing on telling stories that are from my community that are for a broader audience and I hope that only thing I can do is hope and pray that paramount continues to support like we talked about this is one of the only shows

that's created by starring a black woman and also I'm not doing it's just me I'm surrounded by a bunch of white folks it is a black cast and so I don't know how to reconcile the two things, but I know. Is it a fair ask? Sure.

Do you think so? Is what a fair ask? How do I reconcile the two things? Well, I don't, well, I guess the broader conversation that, you know, you've been so generous with your time and we'll have time for is that like, I don't even know. I'm starting to wonder even if the question is fair. Just to be real with you. Just like it because it's going to go somewhere. And like it, the, it's, you know, unless it goes on NACP plus.

And are y'all going to watch it? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? That's my question. The question is for y'all. Right. Why didn't y'all sign up for BETT Plus when you heard, oh, now they're making premium. Even if you're the, you know, because there are people who are like snooty television people and they only want to watch Whittles Bay and whatever the Emmy voters are telling them to watch,

even if you are that person, why didn't you tap in when it was on BET Plus? And then you complain about not having the shows but then you're not supporting the ones that come on. Bigger conversation, but yes. Yes, and I see, and part of it to, like I see so much conversation about

what just got, Wonder Man, just got canceled. I see more threads and posts about Wonder Man being canceled than I did see people bigging up Wonder Man when it was on. And I don't know that it was canceled. I don't have no idea why it was canceled. I don't think it was a ratings thing or a support thing. But I just think it's important that when things are happening that we can support,

we put just as much energy in that as we do complaining once things are gone. You know? And I think that's sort of where we are right now. And I just know that Paramount has this show. They have South Park, which is, you know, gets in Trump's ass every opportunity that they get. It has RuPaul's drag race. You know, so there's, it's complicated.

Everything. Yeah. It's complicated. But I do think the questions are fair because I ask myself, like when I see Jay-Z or somebody doing a, doing a partnership with Target, I go, why are you doing that? I don't think those are the same. But I understand. No, I don't think it's the same.

I don't think it's. I didn't say it. I don't think it's the same thing at all. But I do. think as artists no matter what because I look at myself and go well I'm not j-Z I can't fill up you know Madison Square Garden X mini night so of course I'm going to take the opportunities that are in front of me but that won't always be the case got willing you know at some point I will have to say oh do you have to do this or that or whatever but yeah I think it's always important to

I think it's always fair to ask to ask artists what they stand on he said that rock nation right across the street when you get when you get on the street it's going to be black people out there with different. There might be some witch doctors out there. I don't know. No, I think asking questions, I mean, that's what we've been talking about is it's vulnerable to ask questions. It's just as vulnerable to ask questions sometimes as it is to answer them.

And we're going to as black people join hands and ask and answer vulnerable, tough questions. And we're not going to come at it with the spirit of like, if you said a wrong thing, I'll kill you and your kids. but just coming at it with just like so that we can arrive at a place of understanding. A question is not always accusatory which is what people say.

All right. What a ride that was. Wow. Was that a ride? Oh, I have one thing to say before you kick me out. Okay, Rachel, I love you, right? Every time I see you come up on my screen, you're saying something that I agree with.

Thank you. I know what this is going to be about it. Except for one thing. Get it. Don't do it. I'm here on behalf of the people, the citizens of the great city of Detroit. Do it. You don't like Anita Baker?

Oh my God, get her. What? What in the entire fuck? By the way, Rachel? Guess what I'm about to do? What? Can it be a podcast? This is now.

Can I get a difference? I just, no. It's no disrespect to her as a person or what she means to the community. her music doesn't resonate with me I stand by it it's not like I haven't heard it you guys cannot convince me of anything else there's not one song

that I'm like that moved me I'm going to give her actual inner monologue I apologize that's one of the worst ones oh believe me I do I apologize that's what's really happening inside honest and true

because you know Why I was around. That's why I sing to give you this song. I know the words. But there are plenty of other music from Detroit. I love. Like what? I love all of.

I love of Newtown. I love Aretha. Y'all, we got to go. She just said there's plenty of other music from Detroit that I love. Obviously. Like that's so hilarious to me. There's plenty of other food for brands. Well, she said, well, no, she said.

She said she's representing on behalf of Detroit. There is music I love from Detroit. Detroit is legitimately one of the three most culturally significant music hubs in the history of the world. Not in American history like ever. Yes. Preach. Like in the history of the world. And you have great representation.

We're sorry, Auntie Nita. I mean, but it's true. It's like Auntie Nita is like. Every single black woman and then Rachel on the other side. That's crazy. I got a lot of people, though, saying thank you for your bravery. I agree. I don't believe that was that.

I'm telling you. Maybe, maybe like. And then they start to confess to me other people that they don't like that they're afraid to say. It's not much. I'll say this. Went to see Anita Baker, me and Kalika did years ago at the Hollywood poll. Yeah. So it was such an interesting experience because it's just one of the funniest concerts I've ever been to.

Because they won't let her sing. So Anita brings out like a bunch of different people, right? And I remember there was one woman in front of us. And Anita Breaker brought out like a singer that we like. And the woman went, I didn't come here to hear her singing. I came here to hear Anita Baker sing that song. And Anita came out at the end. And she came out.

She's like, okay, babies. And they were like, sweet dreams, sweet dreams, sweet dreams. She goes, I'll do half of it. she goes, I'll do half of the record. She's saying the first half of the record. Then she said goodbye. And she got off the goddamn thing. That's a notorious thing though.

Like going to see your aunt who you've lived with your entire life. And you ask her to like make some pound cake. And she goes, I made some three days ago. Half of the pound cake left going there and half as much as you want. Love Anita Baker. But the love in the Hollywood Bowl. Yeah. People just wanted to ingest her voice for the entire time she was there.

The last time I saw her, they would not let her sing. It was like they wanted to sing. It was like you looked around and everybody was in their own personal, 1993, but nobody was letting her really sing the song. She brought out a lot of people that night. And a lot of people that could sing, but people were getting a little upset. I'm so glad you asked that. Detroit, I like a lot of other. We were doing so well.

I love you so bad. That's why I'm stunned, but I love you so bad. I love you down. Like Sada, baby? Thank you for having me. me. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being here.

Everybody, tell everybody where they can watch the show, how they can support you. Diora from Detroit is live every Wednesdays. Roast of Bob, 9. On Paramount Plus. Check us out. Tap in.

All right. Would you like her? Love her. What's not to love? From who she is. Great fantastic interview, the show, what it means, how necessary it is right now.

And did you make the handsome? You made the handsome list. What the handsome list? What handsome list? She had the handsome list. I didn't make it. No, no, no. Remember she said that they gave her a list of people and she said your name was not

true. Well? It's not true. I'm nobody's handsome. You know what? That's not true. That's not true. Keep underrating me.

You just underrated yourself in that way. Keep underrated me. She was joking, but I do think that's interesting. I think before we get out of here, I think the thing that you take away from that is and, you know, her show is phenomenal. But I'll be honest with you. Underdiscussed. I can't tell you how many times black creators come back to me.

And this is not what D.R. said. I'll give you an example of something. Black carriers come back to me and they go, hey, I have this thing. I took this thing somewhere. And people are saying that they love it. It's a great script. It's a great concept. Whatever the fuck you want to say.

And they come back to me and say, okay, we'll make it. If you get an EP with a rapper, or if you go out and you grab somebody, a big name, a big name, and then that'll get it made. Now, I'm not going to act like that's not something that's customary in Hollywood. If you can attack somebody to something, then you have a much better chance of getting it made.

But specifically sometimes when it can feel a way, when you have a movie and a studio tells you, well, if you can get a rapper on it, then we'll do it, right? it feels terrible and I have had to talk to a lot of young black creatives about what that actually means. You know what I'm saying? So it doesn't always feel the best. But part of the business is people feeling like they're going to get a return on their investment.

And part of that is, you know, the appeal of something. And, you know, they think that, you know, it's all about rapping, rappers and whatever like that. But her show is great. Go check it out. Oh, go also check out another web series right now. That's amazing. The comic shop.

The comic shop? Comic shop. Okay. Check it out. Shian, I always get scared when it's time to say the Nigerian last name.

But it's a blurred situation that happens inside of a comic shop. She is phenomenal. I think she's one of the best young up-and-coming creatives. She's kind of mean to me. Oh, you know, like her. Love her. See, she's kind of mean to me.

I think she's one of the best young up-and-coming creators that is. And the show is really, really good. Has some friends of mine from even my TMZ days in it. Nice. So go check that out. Go check that out. There's a lot of people doing a lot of awesome stuff in the web series space. So go check their stuff out. We're out of here.

That's it. All right. No Bill Ma. No Bill Maher. Maybe next time. I don't want to talk about it. Great. Don't put them back on the rundown.

All right. I made a mistake. I'm sorry. Take the thing caps off. You're not going to talk about a long time. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.