Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Jack Harlow ‘Got Blacker,’ Spring Break in Houston, and an Oscars Recap With ‘The Big Picture’

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Van and Rachel react to the Oscars before discussing Jack Harlow’s comments on his new album, LaRussell and what it means to be "heaven sent," and spring breakers taking Houston. Then hosts of The Big Picture, Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey, join to look back at an Oscar season to remember. (0:00) Intro (2:09) Academy Awards reactions (26:04) Jack Harlow’s "gotten Blacker" (41:41) LaRussell backlash (59:23) Spring break in Houston (1:18:53) Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey join the show Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessey Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on, is I, Van Lathen, Jr. So later on in the show, we have Amanda Dobbins and Sean Finacy from The Big Picture. It's a conversation about movies. That's their, that's what they say. What do you mean that's what they say? Oh, that's what they come on.

With Sean Finacy, when they do the, they do an intro and then they do a conversation about movies, or is it a podcast about movies? I think they say a conversation. about movies. We should incorporate that. What do you want to say? Higher learning. A conversation about niggas. Let's try again. Higher learning. This is, okay, let's do it the way they do it. Okay. So, so they come on, and go, I'm Van Lathen and then she goes.

Rachel Lindsay. But you go first and then I'll go second. I'm a man, I'm Rachel Lindsay. I'm Van Lathen. This is higher learning, a conversation about niggas. No. One more time. I'm Rachel Lindsay. I'm Van Lathen, and this is Higher Learning, a conversation about niggaship. What do you want me to say? That's what we do. Let's do it again. Just imagine, just imagine. This is the first time you've ever heard higher learning, right? We've both been out in about the last couple of weeks. We're like, hey, we do this podcast together. We're co-host. It's called Higher Learning. You should check it out. Oh, you've never listened to it before? You should check it out. I'm Rachel Lindsay.

I'm Van Lathen. Can I interest you in the conversation about niggins. No? I'm saying. Okay. This is, okay. Let's do it. I'll do it the way I would have done it.

I would like why I'll do it for people. Do it again. Okay. I'm Rachel Lindsay. I'm Van Lathen. This is higher learning. A diverse, energetic conversation about all the hippest, latest happenings in black culture.

Yeah. The yeah. I got it. Amanda and Sean will be on a little bit later. We talked about all of the Academy Awards happenings. The Oscars. Guys, I participated in the conversation, kind of. Kind of.

I give the other perspective, right? For the casual movie watcher. Yeah, no, no, come on. Oh, I'm worse than that? You're not a casual movie watcher. Oh, what am I? You are ghost sports. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Damn. As a person who likes, no, no, but as a person who likes sports,

I know exactly what that means. You are ghost sports for me. That's tough. That's tough. But I did watch the movies. And here's the thing. Ghost sports is funny, by the way. What was her name?

What's her name? Who? Your friend and you were at the thing with and you're all into the game. And she's like. Whitney, Whitney, Whitney. And she's like, Go sports. Whitney. That's funny.

Whitney. That's real. But when I did watch, I still feel like even though we don't agree on probably, I mean, we both love sinners. That's my top movie. But there are movies that I was beautifully surprised about as I watch it. I'm so glad I did. Like, Train Dreams isn't one of the most popular, but I really loved that movie.

Yeah. I watched Frankenstein, too, though. Train Dreams was good. Like, I had, I had, I asked on my homies back because, you know, Train Dreams is a freeing movie. It's a movie that Freezing. So I told him my homies, like, yeah, try to watch Train Dreams, and he brought up something that happened in college.

this was train dreams and it was a guy and we were you know my homeboy had a girl in his room and this is this is a moment where we realized

what kind of what kind of guys when we were talking about train dreams so I'm not going to mention his name but my homie goes like I remember somebody had some train dreams and I knew exactly who he was talking about so my homie had a girl in his room

and he was like, you know, he can't come in because I got somebody in my room and my homie went, we're standing outside, we're talking, he's got the girl. So there's three guys talking. My homie has a girl in his room. I'm talking to him, just about some different shit. And another one of our homeboys comes up

and he wants to go in the room and play video games. And I go, nah, no, no, no, he got company. It's like, we just chilling. And he goes, oh, who in there? And we say the girl's name in there. He goes, Yo, she bought that train action. I remember we looked at him, and this was a very,

this was an important moment in my life. This is one of those moments where you look at somebody and you realize what you don't want to be. And you realize who they are, yeah. I was like, my nigga looked at him. My niggas, he hit the weed, he was like, yo, give him around here, don't come back. That's the only appropriate response.

He's like, yo, give him around this bitch, they'll come back. And when I said train dreams, he said, He took him back. Just like so and so. I'm not going to say his name. Yeah, I mean, he never came back, right? He was around. Okay, I was going to say.

He was around. But we had to keep him away from, because I don't know. Because he's diabolical. You can't trust him around women. Everybody knows, like, we have to put him in that pocket of, you know, like we can't have him around because now I can't even trust, I can't even trust everybody to drink around you

because I don't know what's going on. Exactly. Like, you know what I'm saying? Okay. But it was funny because I said train dreams and he goes, hey, you know who had trained dreams? And I was like, yeah, that nigga. That's not what the movie's about, by the way, guys.

It's not. Not even close. There's nothing to do with that. It's actually sad. It's sad. It's beautiful. It's about humanity. It's beautifully shot.

Not quite as beautifully as soon as though. Which I want to say something. Congratulations. Give it up for Autumn. The wrong, Arkapal. I audibly, I screamed out when she won. First woman. First woman of color.

Oscar quick hitters. Donnie get into it. Yep. We already kind of did. And we're going to talk to Amanda and Sean later. But the Oscars was last night. One battle after another one. Best Picture.

Tapping the ceremony that also saw the film take home the best adapted screenplay and best director. What were y'all's reaction to the night? That one battle after another. had and that centers had autumn won for best center photography Michael B. Jordan won best actor and Ryan Cooler won best original screenplay. I was trying to pull up the nominees for cinematography but I and I want to kind of correct myself when I was talking to we were talking to Sean and Amanda and I said best supporting actor I thought was the most competitive category I think

cinematography was too. I think that so for her to win because even when they were listing out the nominees, I thought, man, that was, that was a, that was beautifully shot. Oh, wow. That show, that was beautifully shot in a completely different way. But, you know, we talked to Autumn. We talked about not just her making history and who she is and what she represents, not just making history just in the way that she, the type of camera that she used, the lens that she shot it with, but just the way that she showcased us, Jamie talked about it. Autumn talked about it. It just, it was so, it was above, to me, it was so deserving, which we'll get into that word later, but just it was right.

And I'm happy that they recognize that too. So there was a little consternation on behalf of the autumn high. Because in some of the awards leading up to centers, excuse me, leading up to the Academy Awards, some of the industry awards for the cinematographers, she was bumping her head a little bit. The ASC, which is the organization that the cinematographers are all a part of, did not give sinners, give Autumn the award. And in some of the prediction markets,

she was the favorite the entire time. When I say prediction markets, I'm not talking about fucking Kalshi and Polly Market. I'm talking about gold derby and all the other stuff that we've been like watching forever on this kind of stuff. She wasn't the favorite going into it. She had been the favorite,

but it was breaking late towards one battle after another. and I was worried. You guys, that was an important Academy Award. That was an important Academy Award for anyone who wants to make their living, collaborating, lighting, doing the things that make some of these movies that we love into legendary epic experiences. You cannot overstate, especially for a movie like sinners, what it meant to have the richness of the character.

characters along with the drama and the intensity. Just what her contribution was to the movie cannot be overstated. And what black women's contributions to film behind the scenes as a part of the creative engine, that cannot be overstated. So to see her up there and to see the grace and the strength in which she's gone through this entire thing. In an occupation, a part of the movie-making experience, that is a boys club.

And it's also a white boys club. That is a groundbreaking Academy Award. And I am so happy. If you had told me last night that there was one that I had a half, it'd have been that one. Really? Yep. Really?

Well, it seemed like the audience. felt the same way. I mean, they understood the history that was being made. She obviously did. Love seeing her son there. Her calling for her son. Love the speech that she gave about women, calling out the women before her. It was great. It always... Now, if you had told me that there was

a second one that I wanted, and we'll talk a little bit about this later. It's Michael B. Jordan when's best actor. Michael B. Jordan wins best actor. And guys, this is a very, very, very, very, very important moment in movie history. Let me not say movie history. This is an important moment in the town right now. It's an important moment.

Why? So if you look at the Best Actor Academy Awards and the way it's been breaking recently. 25 is Adrian Brody. 24 is Killian Murphy. 23 is Brendan Fraser. 22 is Will Smith, 21 is Anthony Hopkins, 20 is Joaquin Phoenix. 2019 is Rami Malick.

18 is Gary Oldman. 17 is Casey Affleck. Okay. Michael B. Jordan's win is unique in most of these. Maybe not, you can maybe compare it to Casey Affleck a little bit. Which film was that? That was Manchester by the sea. Okay.

The town, it's not Michael B. Town. And a lot of people have been waiting for his ascension to legitimately a standard bearer for the town. As much money as he's put on in the box office coffers, as many movies as he's put out there, there was always this promise of this movie star and this entity that people kept waiting to come out through him and that people wanted. in terms of Michael B. Jordan. People wanted it. He's a dead-ass A-lister, all of that.

But the era of Michael B. Jordan, that era, there's a lot of people that I've been waiting for that era. Because in that era is a hope for the continuance of not just the American movie star, but the black American movie star. Because you have to remember, Will, Denzel, Chedle, Sam Jackson to a degree, right?

All of these black male American movie stars, we are looking for the next guy. And that guy has been right there the whole time. We have a fantastic young cropper guys out there. Yeah. Fantastic young cropper guys. Fantastic group of performers.

There's Sterling K. Brown. There's Amarra Hardwick. There's Lakee's Stanfield. There's just, I can continue to, it's Kelvin Harrison, one of my favorite. He's great. He's a fantastic.

Really good. There's so many guys out there, guys. There's so many guys out there. But I'm saying as far as a guy that like audiences can have a relationship with that you can root for, that his, with his name is up there, it means quality. Like we were ready for somebody to step into that. Last night was a big, big, big, big move for Mike and being that guy. Did you think he was, I know we had the conversation before, specifically after,

after he won for SAG. I'm gonna call him Mike because I know the nigga. After SAG, you normally correct yourself. So now that he won the ask, because normally you'd be like, no, I'm not gonna call him Mike because that's Dick right. That's what you say. That's what you normally say.

I was, I am rooting for that brother's success more. I'm rooting for his success so much. I just, you guys, you're out here enough and you meet every different type of person. You meet every different type of person. I'm not one of these I hate LA people. Sure. I'm not.

I'm not one of these people that come out here and met the 15 fakers people in my life. Actually, I'm going to be real with you. For everybody that says that, I feel like you're meeting people that are projections of yourself. That you're coming out here and the people that you are surrounding yourself with when you talk. Number one, you're not tapping in with the actual community and reality of L.A.

That's true. I've been out here for a long time and I've made great friends. I've had great experiences. And the shit that I'm with has been real. I haven't found it to be this fake, vapid, insipid, cauldron of... You've been out here a long time, as you said. I think they always say it takes about five years,

three to five years for you to really sift through and find your people. So I think that that is true. And part of that is connecting with people who are not necessarily in the industry, because that can be a lot too. But what I was going to ask you was, Were you surprised because we were about Michael winning?

What I was saying is of all the people that you meet, you have, somebody that has that type of success. And it's just brutally real. Just brutally real, brutally. And you see him with his family around young actors. That's the way to do it. If you can, if you want to. Like, that's the way to do it. And to see it rewarded and to see it work out, it's inspiring, man.

Rewarded and then the reception from everybody. You know, I might be a ghost sports movie watcher, but I do typically watch award shows. And I, I don't, you, maybe you remember better than me. Have you ever seen people react in that way to somebody winning that award? that no that I mean like people are happy and respectful and they clap but it was I mean because when he hears his name he looks like he can't even believe it he's just frozen of course and then he turns to his mom which is really special but people are out of their seats they're

cheering they're clapping and then the videos that even came after right you see him with fellow nominees hugging him talking to him pouring life into him from other people who actors and actresses who attended I mean it just it was like every Everybody wanted him to win. Not just the people who were voting. It was like everybody. He almost felt like you won too because you were rooting so hard

for this person to win. He also got out here really young. A lot of these guys watched him. Everybody has a story with him, talking with him, him being curious. Like, shout out to my man Sterling. I got the chance to talk to Sterling. Sterling, another fantastic.

These guys have known each other since they were like kids. See, these guys have known each other since they were kids and they've been hardworking and inquisitive. They've been young. They didn't stub, they toe and bump their head like everybody else. But, you know, at the end of the day, man, fuck what you're talking about, the good guys won. And that, and I'm, whether it's Hollywood or anywhere else, that's dope.

I don't know nothing about nobody, personal life and all of this shit, man. And, you know, we always say this. and then some shit, man, the good guys won. Coog, Autumn, Mike, the good guys won, and that's good to see. People that are, you know, earnest and sincere, devoted to craft and come out here and make beautiful things for us to watch. And you see Ryan there with his wife,

you see people talking about their children generationally. It is just completely antithetical. to everything that everyone says that you have to be when you come out here. And I'm trying to tell people, you don't have to be that. And I'm not saying this because I am any paragon of moral clarity or anything like that. But I'm telling you, you do not have to be that. You can come out here and build community. You can build meaningful, lasting relationships and get your art out and connect with people.

and it does not have to make you into that thing. That's a choice. And as many times as I hear people say that, it's just not true. That's a choice. That's a great point to make. Yeah. Because even without you saying that, people might look at him and not think that.

So it's a good point. It's very true. If you don't have family, like some of these guys, like Mike or some of these, it's important to build some, and it's important to gravitate towards safe spaces and people that invest into you, that invest into not just you

and their relationship with you from a career standpoint, but you as a person. You know, it's important to be in places where you are protected and where people are actually curious about you. That's one thing. Last thing I say about this before, you know, we move on to wherever the fuck Jack Harlow got going on.

But like, the last thing I say about this is if you're going to develop one muscle no matter where you at, try to figure out when someone is legitimately curious. about you. Like legitimately curious. Like somebody that when you're having a conversation with them, you can actually move through the conversation with them asking questions and investing into who you are.

It's not an LA thing, it's not a Miami thing, it's whatever thing. It's a human thing. When someone's actually like, oh, what you got going on? You give them something, they listen to it. You give something to them, they read it. because those curious people, they're normally curious about everything. Those curious people are the ones

that are going to see something in you that everybody else misses. But it's on you to find them. You can't come out, you can't get mad and blame people like when someone has a deficiency, like whatever, you can't be mad that you continue to indulge in it. It's on you.

You will build that wherever you go. And I watched the people that built this great ecosystem win last night. And I'm not going to act like that shit wasn't inspiring and moving for me. No, of course. It was. We was at the thing you saw. Man, let's talk about the next thing. We're not going to talk about that.

Me and Rachel don't talk about the parties that we go to. Can I just say, I love that you were outside. Twice, twice this week? I had to get an IV. I was talking to you Saturday night and you had no voice and I loved it I looked at you and I said welcome that's the type of shit that you loved

welcome welcome to the club your takeaway from the Oscars I went on a whole rant just happy to see people out of love me was joy I enjoyed it I just have not been that you know when I used to cover the Oscars it felt like a task this felt like a desire of me

like I felt invested in a way that I never have before. Maybe it's because it's sinners. Maybe because, you know, I watched more of the films. I don't know. Maybe it was because the conversation that was surrounding this Oscars. I'm not sure what it was. I mean, it was sinners. I mean, to be honest, it was sinners. But I just felt so connected to it. And we didn't even talk about the musical performance of I lied to you. We didn't even talk about that because there's so many things to touch on. But even watching that, it was, you just, the fact that they were even able to pull that off in that way on the

stage was just absolutely incredible. I haven't seen a musical performance like that for the Academy Awards. Even the En-Memorial was just heartfelt. And, you know, I don't want to say it like this about forgetting, but we really lost influential actors in the last year. And, you know, a year's a long time, but going through it, I was like, man, they couldn't even cover. They couldn't even give time to everyone that they placed on the screen. And of course, there were people that they forgot, but I don't want to necessarily just focus on the negative. I just mean your original question was my takeaways. And it just was a really nice Oscars to watch.

I don't know if I feel this way for 2027, but for 2026, it was great. I'll say two things and we'll move on to wherever the fuck Jack Harlow got going on. But number one, I want to say this on the M. Memoramoram Situation. Malcolm Jamal Warner was not a part of the M. Memorial situation. Can I ask a question about that? Go for it.

And neither was James. But is it because they're TV? So I don't know. But what I do know is this. We love, remember, exalt, and will always hold space in our hearts from Malcolm Jamal Warner. So Malcolm Jamal Warner was a gentleman,

was a scholar, was a multifaceted performer, an activist, man, a poet, a rapper, an actor, all kinds of, and there is nothing that anyone can do to remove the inspiration, the place,

the space that Malcolm Jamal Warner has in our hearts. and we will remember him forever. Of course. So that is what it is. It, with sinners is interesting, somebody hit me up and I was like, yo,

why is everybody making such a big deal about sinners? What this person was really trying to say was... What is the person looking like? You know what I'm talking about, man. Okay, well, I just, we want to clarify, I want to understand the conversation. What's the deal about sinners?

And look, I thought about this. Imagine that there's like this gigantic party. It's the greatest party in town. It's really a party that can, like, make your career. But you're only invited to that party once every three or four years. Now, there's a whole conversation about whether or not you will continue to go to a party that you're only invited to every three or four years, right?

Maybe it's like the essence black women party or something like that. Like, would you want to go? Would you want to go to that place, right? Well, that's a separate conversation. The conversation is when you're there at that place, how do you act? How do you feel? And what you would do is you will remind people that this is a place you should be every year. That just like every year, there is some movie made by some autore somewhere that captures the heart of this academy.

and, you know, it's the must-see event of the summer of the spring of the fall. Just like that happens every single year to, you know, all of these different directors. Every single year, there are scores of black directors, writers, writers, actors, filmmakers that are as deserving of that type of adulation. as anyone else. And it's not a party that we should only be invited to every three years

because every party in America is essentially our party. So there you have it. Don't tell me when to move on. Jay is over there to tell me to move on. We're talking about the Oscars, nigger. Now we got to talk about what the fuck Jack Harlow got going on. Like, I don't know.

We got to talk about rap. It's rap niggas fucking up. This is what this is. This is rap niggas fucking up. No more Oscars. I was on my soapbox about the Academy Awards. And we were talking about culture and what was beautiful and really us. And now you got to switch to Jack Carlo who says he got blacker Donnie. I'm saying you didn't retreat into a whiter genre.

In fact, you arguably went deeper into black music. I got black music. Yeah. Deeper into blackness. So is that, was that conscious? Was that a little twist on the typical move that white rappers make, which is to retreat back into traditionally white sounds. It certainly made what I already wanted to do even more appealing.

Absolutely. Because you like pushing that boundary, that line? I think I love black music. I love the sound of black music. Who among us? Yeah. I love the sound of black music. And of course, I'm hyper aware of the politics of today, that safer landing spot that a lot of my

white contemporaries have found. And of course, it appealed to me to do something that I felt like at a time when there's plenty of people expecting me to take some of the routes, shall you take? Yeah. To take the route that not only might not be expected, but it's also the one I genuinely want to take. So all the stars aligned in that way for me, to be honest.

I'm not going to pretend like what you're talking about. I was like, huh, I guess you're right. I knew that there were multiple things appealing about this route, but I also came to the decision, I'm proud to say, off of what feels good at my... ear. Donnie, one of y'all pull up a list of some of these... I got it.

You got the list? I got it. So Jack dropped this. It's called Monica. That's the name of it. And I listen to a little bit of it. But they've been on Jackass all weekend long. And they got a list of different nicknames for Jack Harlow.

No, Donnie, pull it up. I thought it was in this tweet that I had. Yeah, Rachel, what do you think? Did you listen to the... Do you listen to any of the records? I did listen to some of it. He has like Robert Glasper on it. Yeah.

So if I was listening to it with no words and just the instrumental, it's nice. Like it's of the music itself. Like it's a vibe. But I could listen to just the instrumental, not the rapping on it. Oh, you want me to, you want me to read some of the names? It's a right situation. These are the names that Twitter has come up with.

Some of them. I'll read some of my favorites. Most definitely not. Tough. Music stole child. White thought. Uncommon. Ghost face vanilla.

Ghost face vanilla. L.L. Cool Whip. Lint condition. There were so many. Neocolonial. So, come on, man. Ninth Wonderbred. These are, these are great names.

January 6th in Park is nuts. Guys, come on. Guys, are we going to be fair? I didn't see that. Hold on. Are we going to be fair to Jack Harlow, guys? No. We're not.

I mean, okay. A lot of people feel like, this, here's my thing. I'm not going to say Jack Harlow can't make an R&B album or a Neal soul album, right? You like the music. You want to do it. Fine. It's the way that he has gone about it that makes us not take it seriously, which is why so many people on the internet feel like he's playing in our faces,

so they're going to play in his faces with names like January 6th and Park. The name, anytime he has to talk about the album, it feels like it gets worse. I almost think this would have been better received if he just would have dropped the album. The cover art, the Kangle Hat. The album is named. They asked him about that on this same podcast that we just listened to. it's a joke. He says that he almost, it's like a costume.

He's like, oh, I wanted to paraphrasing. He's like, I just wanted to wear this hat because it kind of fit. It doesn't make any sense. Then they ask him to name something from a group that where the guy only wears can go hats and he couldn't do it.

Then they ask him about the name of the album, Monica. Right? Which everyone's saying it's really my nigger. What? You never heard this? So I guess there was a comedian. a white comedian who's not from America who thought his friends were saying

Monica forever and realized they were saying my nigger. So when you slow it down, that is, it's like a joke. Oh, guys. So people, no, everybody is saying this. Are they not? Are they not? Guys, okay.

You haven't heard this? So everyone is saying, I haven't heard it. Oh, this is a big thing online. So they're saying. So y'all think that Jack Harlow was trying to call some niggas. My nigger.

So they asked him. Kalika thinks that thank you. They asked him about it on this. They said, Monica, who's she? He says, I just like the name. He's like, you know, I just really like the name Monica. Like I like the name Adrian, right? I love the name Adrian for a man.

That's just great. Jack Harlow is playing around. Okay. Who's Monica? Okay. So I don't know. I didn't know about this legitimately. about the Monica, my nigger thing.

Kalika, you knew? Oh, shit. So I didn't know about the, I didn't know about the Monica, my nigger thing. I really didn't know. A lot of people. I didn't know. So this is what I'll say.

Number one, I think that's a stretch. Okay. Could be true. I'm good for a good conspiracy theory. It's a big coincidence, when you can't explain it. You can't explain it. I don't know about that.

It is interesting, though. I did ask a question earlier about like why he named the album Monica. And he said he just likes the name. Maybe I've come around to this. He says, I just like the name. Just like the name. And then the answer is, because I like the name, Adrian.

It just doesn't, like, the attack, it just feels performative. I don't know if he's, he said he wore the hat as well on it to have the look because he was trying to be controversial. He said that on the podcast. So I got blacker. I think when you hear it in the whole context, okay, whatever. but even saying that, I don't know if he was trying to be funny and it failed.

It does feel like you're trying to just get people talking. It's just hard. Like how do you go from whips and chains, I'm vanilla, to a Neo Soul album? Well, this is what I'll say is the one thing about black culture that I think a lot of people that I know appreciate most about it is that it's effortless. The one thing, it's effortless.

black culture is effortless is something that comes out of you because of an investment into you so if you look like you're trying you look like an agent because what I try to say this all the time and I'm just I'm so

I'm so much less articulate than I think that I am I listen to the podcast my name you sound like a fucking idiot but I'm trying to tell people that a part of being black is a constant and ever present

and eternal look for who is going to betray you. It's a search for the agent. It's an agent search. It's an Asian search. There's always something in it in fucking over black people. Like that's a way to get ahead in America

is fucking over black working people. And so we're always waiting for that person that's going to realize that and then fuck us over. And the way to spot these agents sometimes is through the people that's trying to be black. Hey, look at this.

Look at me. And then we like, hey, nigga, it don't really look like you learn that shit on their own. It looks like you fucking learn that shit off a DVD. Like, what about this one? Like, we always looking for the agent. We're always looking for the person that is trying. And when it looks like you're trying,

we always ask why are you trying so hard? Like what is making you try so hard? We already fucked with you. Like what's the point of this? Like what and nobody gets it. Like nobody gets it. That's the thing about the white boys that be in these situations is they just don't get it. Hey, Justin Timberlake, we already decided that we like you.

You don't have to do the other thing. You don't have to go, TC, beat your feet. And then dance, we don't have to do that. We already decided that we like you. Jack Harlow, we already decided. that for most part, we was cool with it. Maybe they just want to see how far they can go. My thing is, then just do it, right?

That's what I say. You know how they never try to be black? This is how they never try to be black. They never try to be black by going into the hood and giving a million dollars away. Like, you know what I'm saying? They never try to be black in the ways that are actually beneficial to black people.

Well, that's because it's not about that. It's about being, it's about, self-serving. But what I'm saying is, I don't even think, so it's like if you, for the next white performer, that's going to decide they're going to vacation, if you really want to do it the slick way, I'm going to give you game. Go and start the Harlow Timberlake School of the Arts in the middle of South Baton Rouge. I'm talking about pour into it. Do a LeBron James. I promise school. for give Jason Wilson from the cave of a delam

raise $2 million for build like go do something and then niggas to be like I at least we got something out of it but that's never the way it's always like I decided that now I want to wear a coofy and rap for people like him right like that's not Mac Miller

no but Mac never tried that though exactly that's the thing so I you don't need I get your point right it would be great if yes they did something that was beneficial to the community. But if you're really about the artistry, if it really, if the music as he says on this podcast, if the music really means something to you, you connect with it and you studied it and you believe it and you feel it,

we'll just do it like Mac Miller did. It's plenty of people. This is, I know, I'm just giving you an example, but what Jack Harlow is doing is an example of it feeling performative. It feels disingenuous. When you are questioned about the particulars of this album, And this sound, you really don't answer it well. So for you to want to step out, because you were so moved by this genre or this type of music and what it means and what it represents and the intimacy of it, why can you not express that?

To me, if I poured my heart and soul into an album and I'm stepping into something new and this is a career decision or a life decision that I'm making, I've really thought about this and I would be able to verbalize this because I've, that this is so meaningful to me. Jack Harlow's questions, I mean, answers to the question on this, they're even laughing at him as they're talking to him about, why'd you name it like this? Why are you wearing this hat? Why are you, it feels like a joke.

Well, I do think also, though, that it is, I think what Jack Harlow is doing is performative for a goodhearted reason. I do. I think that there's been a lot of talk, a lot of talk about the vacationers. We talked about this. Yeah, a lot of people are talking about that now. There's been a lot of talk about that.

And I think that this was Jack Harlow's way of saying, I'm not going to do that, right? I think that Jack Harlow has looked at other white performers that have, you know, had these dalliances with black culture and got their shit up and then jumped out of the culture and goes, you never, and he went, you never have to worry about me doing that. Here's the thing, though.

That can't be your reason. We will never, at least for me, I'm not going to speak for everybody. I will never worry about you doing that if you don't make it a thing. Even if you decide that you want to go be Nirvana, I'm not going to trip until you go,

you know what? Hip hop fucking sucks, which is what the white vacationer's pyramid was about. Now, we have to make a new list. I don't have it ready yet. Of. The Harlow Hall of Fame. People that went so black that we was like, whoa.

Who's another person in this? Oh. Well, you said, I got a list. Okay. Like the Harlow Hall of Fame of people that went, we went, all right, now, nigga. Because what people don't understand is we move on to La Russell once again. It gets worse.

Like, what people don't understand it, is when it's a white boy in the car, most of the time we just want you to be a white boy. We want you to be yourself. Just be a white boy. No, no, no. I'm not around no white boy. I don't do the wigger thing.

I didn't say that. I said be yourself. Okay, so just be a white boy. Okay. This is what, like, tell us about Arnold Palmer's. You know what I'm saying? That's what you, that's, the diversity is in that. Like, you know, like we had grace spiller

in the neighborhood. Gray used to come around. Gray never tried to be. Gray would come over. Gray was like, we go play basketball. Gray would be like, yeah, yeah, I can't hoop with you guys right now.

I got to go play tennis. We'd be like, what? Can we play tennis? And he's like, yeah, sure. Sure. I don't have a lot of, you guys can use the same racket and we're playing tennis

and we're like, what the fuck? This is fun. Just, we fought with Gray. Great. we fucked with him. Gray told his mom one time to get out of his face. I was like, you know. And what does she do?

She got out of his face. She got out of his face. I'll come back when you've calmed down a little bit. Yeah, yeah, come back. Come back. Because you weren't here. I'm like, great, chill. No, don't tell me to chill.

She needs to hear about herself. I'm like, whoa. What's the fucking home? You know, anyway, Ray one going to get me fucked up. Okay, well, I'm looking forward to the new pyramid. The Harlow Hall of Fame. Yeah, yeah. The ones that we're like,

I'd like to take some guesses before you announce it, but we'll think, no, not right now. No, not right now. I want to think about it. Yeah, I mean, it's people, it's a couple of English motherfuckers on that list, too. Oh, they went too far? Yeah, it's not that they go too far,

but they go, no, they go too far. It's a couple of English people, reggae people. Like, you can't, don't go too far. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways.

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So look, we've never talked about La Russell on the podcast before. You guys fuck with La Russell? Yeah. See, this is the thing. So we have Bernard here. Bernard, how old are you? 27. Jade is, Jay was born in the year 2000.

Jay told me that for a second. I wanted to sit with it. Like, that's nuts. Yeah, it is. It's so weird to hear. Jay was like, I'm a younger millennial myself. Jay, don't say that again. I was, I was like, what year were you born?

Jay was like, I was born in 2000. I'm like, if you don't get the fuck up out of here with that shit, I was two years into college. I'm really old for real. Jay was born in the year 2000. That's crazy. Anyway, so y'all like La Russell, right? Had you heard of La Russell before this?

I've heard of La Russell. I don't listen to his music like that. So I'm going to start out in love before we even have Donnie bring this. And I'm going to start out in love. La Russell is another person. that is an example to me of betting on yourself and doing it right. The Russell got a smile on his face when he rapping. He's rapping about things that matter.

He has a deep, deep cultural authenticity that comes from where he comes from in the bay. You just don't ask around a lot and hear a lot of people that got a negative word to say about the Russell. It's just facts. He's been doing this thing for a while now. And when he came out, his brand of creation was so intoxicated. that so many different people I know in the hip hop space was trying to figure out how they could get closer to him as a creative and as a brand.

Because he's also branded himself. He gives young artists game on the business, how to get your merch right, how to get your shows right, how to own your music. A lot of people were coming to LaRussell to sign and he didn't sign until he got the right deal. Donnie?

I made this record and I sent it off to my engineer. And he calls me. He said, man, you probably shouldn't put this out. I said, why? What the hell happened? He said, you know, you're talking about Epstein? There's a lot of shit going on. And I said, thank you for calling me.

I'm going to drop this. That's exactly why we need it. Because everybody's sitting and be silent. And the goal of an artist is to express the times and discuss, say all the things that nobody else want to say or know how to say. I'm not perfect and neither is the president was guiltier than the nigger hiding evidence. You can't be mad that they heated if you don't let them vent. Even the devil was heaven sent.

Even Malcolm was heaven sent. Even Martin was heaven sent. Even Kanye was heaven sent. We all heaven sent. Donald too. We all heaven sent. Epstein too. we all have been sent

Adolf too We all have been sent Even you We all have been sent For the people who like him Jade Bernard I'm really interested What you think

Because I know of him But I don't know his music like that I know kind of what he is And like with the music and the culture and stuff like that and like how he's built his brand, but I don't know his music. So when you hear something like that. Jay, come on and get on Rachel's mic. Jade, God damn it now. You want to be a star. You're rapper. What's your rap name? Jade. Jady Jade? This is Jade everybody. It's actually Jade and Bernard. Come over here. Come over. Do it now. You guys are young people and we need you

guys to talk about La Russell? I definitely think that it is, he is someone that wraps a lot about love, about community, about fairness for all, things of that nature. So it makes sense why he was very

much like everyone belongs in heaven, everyone's a child of God, all of these things. However, it was very surprising to hear him come up with these lyrics. And I don't know. I think it's kind of, I don't think he said it right.

I don't think what he was saying was. What do you think he was trying to say? Because does this change your opinion about who LaRessel is as an artist? Because if I closed my eyes, I would have thought it was Kanye. This sounds like some of Kanye would say. I don't know if it was. would have like, I don't know. I think he's trying to say something that he's not saying well.

I understand that he's trying to paint the picture that we are all humans at the end of the day. But like there are levels to being a human in this life. You know what I mean? There are levels to how you operate in your life and do certain things. And I don't think the people he's talking about deserve that platform whatsoever to be acknowledged in that way. That's my opinion. Honestly, I'm in love with his brand. I've been trying to replicate his brand to low-key do for myself.

Speak it to the mic. Hello. You said, honestly, you what? I like his brand. The wait. I don't really listen to his music, but him as a brand, he literally turned his whole image and his whole personality into a brand, where literally he's traveling.

I met him on different occasions when I went to NAM, 2025, 2024. I met him at the Mateo location, talked to him for a bit. Sweet. Literally, it's just about his brand how he carry himself as a man and just how he carried himself as music. When I heard that, though, I did close my eyes and thought of Kanye for a second. So that's how I was like, geez, yeah, it's tough.

But as a brand, though, man, it's a genius. Yeah, no, he's a genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Appreciate a little something from the kids. Yeah, to understand. Because what I did know is, is does he say, say, like I said, I could close my eyes and think, was this Kanye? Is his part of his brand saying things that are controversial to get people talking?

Is that to start a conversation and discourse? I don't know. That's the kind of thing that I was trying to understand. What I did understand is he does not know the definition of heaven sent. Right. Well, this is a, so this is a thing. So he did come out a couple of weeks ago. And this is, there's never anything in a vacuum.

of the hate that La Russell is getting right now. And guys, there is no two ways about it. Yeah. This was a breathtaking unforce error from La Russell. There's no way to say that other than that. Love the young brother, what he's doing. This is a breathtaking unforce error by La Russell. Just it is what it is, okay?

But a lot of people on his ass about this a little bit because sometime before this, was it like last month or something like that, he said, Lil Wayne doesn't rap about anything. Little Wayne doesn't have any wraps of substance. And here's the thing about that. Do you know why a lot of people don't rap about anything of substance?

Do you know why? Why? Because it's hard. It's difficult. I saw you doing the money sign. The money sign is true. But the reason why people don't rap about shit of substance is because it's not easy.

Because when you're rapping about substance and with substance and with any type of intelligence or wit, you got to in your raps, make your shit make sense. And if you're going to say that Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump are heaven sent, it's got to go further. If you believe in God, then there's an inherent belief in understanding that God created everyone. Man, we've been on that. That's like, that's the thing with some of the rappers that aspire to a little bit more.

Sometimes they let their reputations do the work that the lyrics should. So if you have the reputation of being a rapper that has substance, sometimes you'll say some shit and the shit is fucking dumb. But because we know you're smart, we go there must be something more to it. I get that and I understand that. But if we're trying to put Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump in the same sentence with

Martin Luther King Jr., you got to go a little deeper. Yeah. Do we understand, like you said, heaven sent means something that happened it comes from heaven. Well, it's like a blessing. It's like a miracle.

Right. So that's not what, that's not who the people are. If you say that Jeffrey Epstein was a blessing, brother, we need the equation. You got to show you more. Okay.

Or if you're saying, like created from God, like if that's what you're trying to, to mean you need a better explanation from it and then you need to explain that that's that they're hellbound you know not even that because I'm not even with all of that who go into hell shit that's a thing that's happening in hip-hop because even LaRissel did that my point thing is that there there's an evil there's a good and an evil and if you're using a heaven right I'm using the reason I'm saying hell is because of heaven so if you're using a heaven

then the other part of it is hell this is a good you're it's good versus evil that's the only reason I said hell back so I'm like if that's what you're trying to say then maybe this is where you should have gone with it. You know, this is something that artists try to do a lot as well. They, you know, we've heard this before. Like, people try to like, shit happened, okay?

I don't know if people know, but Hitler killed 12 million people in the Holocaust and then started World War II. I say this all the time. 3% of the world's population died in World War II. Just unspeakable atrocities. just unspeakable atrocities of World War II.

Yo, we, it's a deeper conversation. You know, you got to go deeper, is what I would say. You got to go deeper. And one thing I will also say, I'm not about to OG LaRussell. I doubt that he needs that, but listen to the people. Listen to your audience here. Like, there's nobody that's, there are some people in, they're involved in this conversation,

and are looking for reasons not to like LaRussell, either because they don't like the independent way that he moves around or because people look at people that have a sort of positive aura and try to find reasons to poke holes in it, that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is your engineer heard a record and he was like, hey man, it's not fully baked yet. Right?

If you want to take a story and go deep about how somebody becomes a monster like Jeffrey Epstein or Donald Trump or, Adolf Hitler. I'm here for it. I watch those types of stories all the time. Watch those types of stories all the time. Sometimes they end in tragedy. Unspeakable things. There's a story called, you ever see the boy in the striped pajamas? No. Be prepared for the ending. But when you, but like when like, don't, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to look up the end. Like, it's like, I read it before I saw it on the screen. Just be prepared for the ending. But things that end in tragedy and show the horrors of something like the Holocaust,

and concentration camps and all of that stuff. I'm into that, but like, all of that stuff is happening because of Adolf Hitler and his disgusting, anti-Semitic, racist, crazy notion about world conquest. And so I don't know. There is a little hubris sometimes in some of our artists that think that it's up to them to explain something to us that we can't see. We submit to that because art is supposed to do that. But when you take that endeavor up,

you can't drop the snippet on the top of the snippet, be pseudo self-righteous, get into the snippet, and then come out of it without anything else. And I expect people to be like, yo, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. But I think it's a learning experience. I think this is a learning experience.

Anybody that's looking to turn LaRussell off for this forever, probably never quite turned LaRussel on. Probably never would, the type of people that like don't like it with somebody, like I say, where his energy comes around. But my nigger, that's not going to be. Let me ask you this. You're right in what you say. Like a person for me, I never really listen to him. So it doesn't, you know, like I'm probably going to keep that same energy.

But is it necessary for him to, because he gave us a snippet, right? Are you expecting? And this goes for the fans to, y'all, your young ones over there. I'm not a statement or apology before a finished version of the song. No, no, no, no. A finished version of the song that explains the snippet. Or are you like, okay with just getting a snippet and he just moves on to the next thing? Like are you, what would you want from an artist that you respect who said something that's just,

you can only really look at it one way? because I know for me how I would necessarily feel I would be expecting something but maybe I'm expecting too much is it okay that he just does this offensive snippet and makes the next song? Well look I actually am not offended I just think it's dumb

but I say dumb things and then I try to come back after I've said something dumb and try to tell people how the dumbness got from conception to brain work out of my mouth but you say you tell people I think that will happen.

There's obviously going to be some interview with La Russell at some point somewhere where someone asked him about this. And then what he'll explain is what I think we all know, which is everybody is created in the image of God by God. The question is what does that mean? Everybody is, I think we look, I don't want to get, I don't have Kevin stage here to help me. So help me with the religious way. But I think we understand. understand that. So I remember when

Boatham John was killed? And his people were in there and they were like crying with the lady who had killed him and stuff like that. You know, they were... Yeah, it's in Dallas. Right, New Dallas, okay. That's hard for people. It's hard for people.

Yeah. And that's one gentleman who was killed in a really, really terrible way, right? It's hard for people to be like, hey, you know, Dylan Roof walks in to the church and shoots up a bunch of people that are praying with them. And there are people that their faith is so strong that they go, hey, you know what? We have to forgive him. It's what God wants.

It's hard. It's hard for people. And it's especially hard when you're talking about someone that led to the death of 3% of the world's population. Or when you are talking about somebody that ran a child sex trafficking ring. This is difficult. What we're trying to figure out is how to identify people like this that exists in our culture

and get them the fuck away from us and everybody that's around them. Yeah. And starting a conversation about how those people also are from God a little timing issue right there. And how about the end of it, him being like, even you are heaven said.

I was like, uh-uh, don't put us in there. They put Malcolm X and Martin Jr. in there. Yeah, but then he put us in it. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I'm straight up. I'm not trying to act. Look, once again, no moralizing. I'm not trying to moralize. I think this was a tactical error. He'll explain it more. But once again, man, when you're making these records and these records have substance and you are trying to challenge people, you also are, there's a threshold there.

Now, you're asking them to do more because I see a lot of people with a substantive music do this. They're asking you to do more, but then also they got to do more. They got to do more too It's not just on the audience to be smart If you're going to make the smart shit You got to be smart too This is dumb At least as it is right now

This is dumb Surface level observations That no one can kind of understand Why he's doing it I believe in the Russell enough to know that there's more to it But as it stands right now Could be a learning thing experience for the young man.

You hope so. Epstein, too. Oh, you're Houston. I'm from Dallas. I know, but like, you, you, you, you, you Houston too, though. I am Houston too. See you're so I said. I got a lot of family in Houston.

But I'm not this Houston. Donnie, you ever used to. I'm not this Houston. I don't know what it is. Houston, Houston, Houstonians don't know what this is. What you mean? Donnie, go ahead. Yeah, it's spring break and Houston has been

taken over it looks like by spring breakers. For example, the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo closed earlier than it was supposed to this weekend after guests started to flee from random fights that were popping up all over the place. And I mean, there's a bunch of different posts from people who are enjoying their time

in Houston. Houston has trended online this weekend, this week, because people are like overly enjoying themselves. They're spring breakers. They're having fun. But how are the Texans reaction to this? Donnie, Donnie, Donnie, I need you to keep it real for us. second, bro, because you're a nice guy.

You're the La Russell with this podcast. Don't let him do that to you. Don't let him do that to you. Donnie, they're fucking and sucking and doing drugs in Houston. Facts are non-fax. That's what happened. Facts are not facts. That's what spring breakers do. That's what spring breakers do.

But what people understand is they didn't take it over Houston. It's crazy shit. There was a, there was a situation that came out a video of a two-man happening in a car in Houston. That's all. They fucking in the front seat.

They're fucking in the back seat. They're going crazy. Yeah. They're going crazy in Houston. Houston is the new black spring break capital. And nobody understands it. Condoms everywhere. Nobody, nobody understands how this happened.

I guess some party promoters, influencers promoted this since spring break has been, you know, the beach. It's kind of over there. They put all the rules in place. It's kind of dead in Miami, wherever anybody else used to go. Somebody designated Houston. is the spot. Houston is not a place where you spring break. And it's not.

And I guarantee you in 2027, it won't be where people go. None of this made sense. You got the rodeo, which makes sense. And I think there's another week left of the rodeo. But all these out-of-towners coming in, and I'm talking to people in Houston, and they're like, we don't know how this happened. Clubs, sections, $2,500 a bottle, that's not Houston.

Lines wrapped around the building, house party. people riding top down in the streets. Did you see that video? What? They're in a convertible. And it's like, I don't know, five, six women. And they're bent over. I don't know why.

It doesn't make any sense. They're bent over the seats. So you just see asses. And people were saying they were bent over because they don't want their hair to be flying everywhere. It made no sense. I saw Slim Thugs video.

He had people like, he couldn't get, he couldn't move anywhere. People were twerking on top of cars, doing the splits on top of cars. Showing up in line in bikinis, and there's no beach. Right. They really thought it's spring break,

so we're just going to wear spring break attire, but there's no beach to go to. This one in Galveston. They got pools. The pool is a stretch. The pool. They got a pool. The pool is a stretch.

They got a pool. They have pools. This was just a disaster. Well, it's not over. Because let me tell you, what's happening, April 24th to 26th in Houston, is it goes down all the time when the mocha fest be at that bitch. Remember the mocha fest videos we got from a couple years ago?

Moka Fest crazy, bro. Like, well, like, you remember the Moka Fest? No, I've never heard of it. Y'all don't remember the Moka Fest from Houston? They got Moka Fest in like three or four different countries, right? Never heard of it. They got, it's like Moka Fest in Jamaica. I feel like it's Mokafest in, is it Miami?

I don't whatever. They got Moka Fest a couple of different places. You don't remember like the Moka Fest. They was straight up whaling at the Moka Fest a couple of years ago in Houston. We covered it on higher learning. We covered it the Moka Fest. I don't know why I'm doing this.

That's not until late April. This is pre-Moka Fest. They just getting ready for the Moka Fest right now. They call it the Moka Fest because it's chocolate spilling everywhere. I love it. Like this is what I say, man. As long as everybody is safe in Houston, let them take Houston over.

It's probably good. for the economy. Is everybody, I mean, we've seen all these fighting videos and, and I, is it, is it? Is it? You know what's funny about me though? Can I be all the way real? This is how I know that I'm getting old. Because I am supporting what's going on in Houston, okay?

But I would not want it to happen here. Exactly. Thank you for all my friends in Houston, friends and family. You know what? I got to keep it all the way. I'm supporting all the, but I'll look at these young whippersnappers. I remember one time when we went to Galveston, we was going to see. Why?

Why did you go to Galveston? Jade. Jade. Jay, the water is brown. Jay, was you one of the girls in the car? Jade. Was you one of the girls in the car? Jade, what name one thing you like about Galveston?

She's young. She liked the beach party. She liked the beach party. That was the Kappa Beach Party. Kappa Beach Party did go down. So we went. We were in Galveston. And, you know, we're in Galveston, and we're going into the drugstore.

And it's me, Ryan, Ian, Gino, Gino, G.T., Bryant, Rara, Emmett, peanut, all of them. We're going into the drugstore. And we just, we think that we're going to have a great time in Galveston. So the stuff that we're putting on the counter at the drugstore is just debauchery. It's a debauchrous hall of stuff, right, that we're putting on the counter at the drugstore. And I remember there was a woman, an older black woman in her mid-40s,

that was obviously a local. She went, I can't wait till it's over. And she's standing there, and we looked and we laugh. She was like, young men, please get your items and get out of the drugstore. So I just remember her going, she says, I can't wait till it's over. And I got it, when I was, we were getting in the car, I was looking back at her.

And she was looking at the car with her glasses down like this. Like, I can't wait to these little niggas leave. She probably retired to Galveston. She's like, I can't wait until they leave. And now it's not Galveston anymore is Houston. Houston is not a spring break destination. You keep saying that. But Houston is not a spring break.

Well, no, I'm clearly right. You see what's happening. It's they taking over the city in the worst way and it's making all the locals upset and they're not equipped to do it. They're not ready for this because Houston is not a spring break city. Interesting situation. We talked about Miami. Miami is cracking down. That's why I think that's why they left.

Yeah, Miami, Miami said no more. What was the spring break place when you were that age? And that's the other thing. Oh, when I say age, that's what the locals are saying. These aren't spring break age people. You got like 30 year olds coming down and partying that. And so like that's part of the problem. I'm not saying it's not spring breakers,

but you're getting a lot of late 20s 30s. Will Russell say they haven't sent? They're trying to get with them kids. I mean, look, I don't know what to say. This is funny. I've just never heard this much complaining about it. Houston seems to be fighting back. It's not the place.

Miami has. Miami is a different city than it used to be. So Miami kind of fancied itself an upscale version of a sleazy party town, which is essentially what Miami is. Shout out to my Miami people. That's not all Miami is. I like to go to the other parts of Miami. There's a ton of real culture in Miami.

But Miami wants you to come and spend thousands of thousands of thousands of dollars there at the one hotel and going crazy and the upscale restaurants and all of that stuff. They want you to. But they don't want to. the kids from Western Baptist State to come down there and fuck the city up for a whole weekend. They're over that. Yeah. But Houston is getting that now.

Moka Fest. Where will they go next? I see. I'm looking it up. I see. It's in Jamaica. You're right? So this is what Mr. Holbein says.

Who? The rodeo needs to come up with some new rules. No teenagers allow without parents, $50 at the door. That'll keep a lot of nonsense out. The rodeo is walking distance for most of these teams. So it's going to be chaos. All parties involved were arrested. This is apparently a fight that happened at the rodeo.

They're going crazy. So, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is. We're about to talk. What? They're not going to be at Houston next year, and I'm wondering where they're going to be. Because it always changes, right? That's why I was asking you, like, where was the place that you all went for spring?

It was South Padre Island. South Padre Island, Texas. So it was, these were the big places. It was El Cancun. Yeah, Cancun too. Like a lawless. Because you didn't have to have a passport to go. then you could just go.

Cancun was pure debauchery. It was pure debauchery. We'd go to Cancun, South Padre Island, Texas, Galveston, but also at that time, because I wasn't in the Freednick era. Oh, Daytona? Daytona! Daytona was going crazy. That was ahead of my time. Daytona was nuts.

So think of all the places that you named. Right. And then at Houston. It just don't make any sense. Well, I mean, we'll see what happens. Moka Fest, April 24th, 26. Now, this is why I feel like it's going to happen in Mokafest now. Mokafest got to up the ante.

All the Mokafest people listening to me, these kids, because Mokafest is for everyone. These kids think that they can party harder than y'all, man. Show them, man. Show them. Like, leave Houston in shambles, man. Houston owes more. Jeez. I fuck with Houston.

Do you? Because you just told everybody to tear up the city. A new spring break place. Oh, you know what? You know what? I would say we should try this in Baton Rouge. What would they do? So, I mean, there's, Gino had an idea one time in Baton Rouge.

He was like, I think Baton Rouge needs an adult pool. And Gino was going to, he was going to do the adult pool. It was Gino's idea. He had this idea. He wanted to bring, like, a pool like in Vegas to like Baton Rouge. So like, what was it called? What did we always just go on Sundays in Vegas? What was that place called?

Was it rehab? Rehab, yeah, yeah. So he wants like a rehab. So he wants, oh, so much fun. Disgusting. You like that shit. It was the spot. Because that was Memorial Day weekend.

So Memorial Day weekend used to be the place. It's like, where were you memorial? It used to be Vegas. Everybody went Vegas. Then it was Punta Kana. Hold on, man. And then it was, I don't know where the first. I'm gonna be real, man.

Like, I used to say something. Yeah, it was so much fun. It was, I used to have a whole category of people that thought rehab was like dope. That tells me a lot that you love rehab like that. I went once a year and it was so much fun. In that pool. Oh, I didn't get in a pool. Are you kidding me?

I was in a section. I would never get, I don't get a pub. I don't get, see, that adult pool stuff that Gino wants to do. Highly, highly, highly white. That adult pool. Rehab is highly white. Not Memorial weekend. Yes, it was.

All right, because you weren't there. I've been before. Let me tell you why it wasn't super white Memorial Weekend because the reason was this was, I'm telling you how black people used to move. Everybody went to Vegas. It was the football was over. It was the off season.

Everybody went from different cities. They went to Vegas. Then it became, it was, maybe it was Miami, Vegas, then Punta Kana. It was very black. Rehab. Very good. So you like rehab.

Okay, but like, so go to Baton Rouge. You guys try this in Baton Rouge. just everybody go to Baton Rouge and the headline will be 40 dead It's interesting you want to talk about me That's crazy But Geno wants an adult pool Like you guys

The next spring break destination is Houston now Go to Baton Rouge The mayor will come out on Sunday And be like There was unprecedented carnage this week 40 dead Like everybody going to believe You're going to go down there with a chain

you're not coming back with the chain all the rental cars everything everything every it's just like it would be a it would be a massacre of slaughter well then let's not let's not have them go down there goose our economy for the niggas across the track south bad ruzzihan city

ghost town niggerville all of them places goose are economy go down there do it in badmurage next well why don't you and gino plan it huh you and gino can plan you know what gino not going to be involved And that Gino is the most stopped of violence nigger that's ever lived. I can't believe.

Of course you would be inciting violence, but just planning something a weekend to boost the economy. Of Baton Rouge, like a spring break. Okay, I'm with that. I'm with that. I have Mama cater the whole thing. Because, you know, you can just ask Mama to cook whenever you want and then she'll cook for you. That's her job to cook for people to ask her to cook.

I'm sorry. Did you not enjoy it and invite more people to the house? Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, we have We have to go. We have to go. I do want to talk next podcast about what's going on at Paramount. Okay. The takeover?

Well, Paramount is owned by the Ellison's Skydance, essentially a Trump operation over there, Barry Weiss running things. And yet and still, There still seems to be both a mission by Paramount to attract black creators and acquire black projects. And also there doesn't seem much to be much reluctance from black creators and big deals in working with Paramount and Skydance. You have a list of people that are doing that?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because this isn't about calling anybody out. That's not what it's about at all. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying for you to say that there seems to be that. Do you know? It comes both from what I've seen and what I know. Okay. So that's going to be a deal.

Like, for example, if, in fact, rush hour is made. Think about this. If rush hour is made directed by Brett Ratner at the behest of Donald Trump, starring Chris Tucker who is a pretty beloved performer here in the black community

Rush Hour is a franchise that black audiences love and have responded to over the years will black people go see Rush Hour? Will there be a robust effort to rebuke the movie

because of the genesis of its production and what it actually means will how much everything that's going on war in Iran gas prices spiking Epstein files

and stuff is any of this stuff enough for us to punish any of the bigwigs for it better involved I think that also depends on and we can I don't want to get into it but I guess the question is what does the average consumer know. How much do they know? Do they know about who Brett Ratner is? Do they know

about the Paramount stuff? Do they know about, I mean, we'll talk about it on Thursday, but BET Plus, do they know these things? It's one thing about the war and everything, but do they know about the takeover with CBS? Do they, I, we're so into it and we talk to people in the industry that are in the know, particularly when it comes to this, that I'm very interested in, does your average consumer, and you said, black audience, so I'll say average black consumers, so I'll say average black consumer know what's happening and understand it. That also plays into it. This is why to me it is less useful overall to make specific individuals, the mascots for stuff

that's happening. It feels good for a lot of people to have a direct enemy, right? feels good for people to be able to say this person is fucked up because they did this thing. But what happens when you do that and when you're overly focused on doing that sometimes to me is that after that person gets their just desserts, you feel like that issue is over. It's not just that I am hesitant to like be on here every pod and just calling out different individuals and all of that stuff. It's not that, it's not so much that is that I really don't feel like that's as useful as people think that it is.

Because when you do that and that person gets hit, they're gone. But the systemic dysfunction that allowed them to get to where they are persists. So what I would rather do, that's not always the right thing to do. That's why you got to balance. But what I would rather do is have conversations just about what people should have. actually be expecting from Paramount, from Skydance, from anything that you support with your Dallas. What's realistic to support? What's unrealistic to support? Is it unrealistic to hold an artist or a creative to a standard that whoever they work with should be completely politically

pure? Is that unrealistic? Like, what's the realistic ask from people? I would rather have that conversation because it's a conversation that can actually empower people to make decisions, rather than them thinking that as soon as they move the bad guy that the game will change because that's not always true. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we're going to talk to Amanda Dobbins and Sean Financy from the Big Picture podcast,

the podcast produced by Jack Sanders. Have you heard about me and Jack Stain that we do in the office? I haven't. You got to watch the watchfuls. Me and Jack have a call and response that we do. You guys hear about it? Nobody knows. about the relationship that Jack Sanders and I have and the call and response that we do,

go watch. I think it's the F1 rewatchables. Talk about what me and Jack do when we see each other in the office. Jack Sanders, that's my guy. But they're coming on the podcast to talk a little bit more about this. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window?

Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.

And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi. phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. At the Academy Awards. It's on the other side is break. The Oscars were last night, and it's time for us to talk about the show, about the awards with our friends, from the big picture. Guys,

this, I've decided this is the most controversial link up since the Transatlantic slave trade. Wow. Okay. All right.

That's a big statement. Why is it so controversial? Two worlds. Look, I already got red face shun. I already did it. I've been up for three days straight, man. This is how you want to start.

Jesus. We knew what we were walking in, too. You did. Welcome. This awards. The show itself. First of all, thank you guys so much for joining us.

We are so eager to talk about this. There was so much going on. The week felt so different. The show felt so consequential. All of the awards, before we even get into the ends and outs, one ballot after another, center, the winners, the losers. For you guys that covered this stuff on a granular level, what was this season like to y'all?

Long. Very, very long. And I think there has been a lot of conversations. about maybe the Oscars don't need to be quite as late next year going forward as they were this year. That said, Sean and I both loved one battle after another and sinners. And from the perspective of two people who follow this stuff way too much every year, it's rare to like both movies in the running. It's rare that there's not like a true villain and or some movies.

that you can't stand or you think isn't going to win. So in that sense, it was a nice season of talking about films that we enjoy. And I do also think the awards show itself was a moments back and forth of honoring a bunch of winners that for the most part we thought were deserving. There's been a lot of talk about how long the season was. Did that affect anyone other than Timothy Shalame? It seems like... But did it affect him?

It seems like the length of the season that the more people do. got their feel of Timothy Shalame, that he kind of fell out of favor a little bit. Am I wrong to say that? It seems like in December, he was a clear-cut favorite to win best actor. And as things shook out, the longer that they did,

the town so coalesced around Michael B. Jordan, and that even as much as the performances that we saw on screen, played a part in how things shook out Sunday night. I think the length of the season actually helped centers in a lot of ways. I think that if we had held this show a month ago, I don't know if the groundswell, not just for MBJ, but for Autumn Dural Darkapaw.

And I think also, you know, Amanda and I got to go to the Directors Guild Awards earlier this year, and we talked about it on the show. And in that room, it was very similar to what you heard in a lot of the rooms over a lot of the award shows over the last few months, which was an incredible enthusiasm for sinners, that a lot of people coming together person to person and talking about how much they love that movie resulted, I think, in honestly what I think is a stronger showing than if the awards were held on January 10th because there was a lot of time where people got to know that cast, they got to know the people below the line, and you could feel a lot of people talking about a big hit that had a really strong reputation. You know, six months ago,

Amanda has been saying this. It did feel like one battle announced itself very loudly and then has been out front for a very long period of time. So best picture ultimately was not in question. But, you know, Salome, I think, did take some arrows over the last month or so. But it did benefit a lot of very worthy winners on the other side. You know, the season always feels too long. And when you get into that final two-week stretch, it always feels like the discourse is a little bit more toxic and people find ways to pit movies against one another,

no matter what's in contention. But it is rare for a lot of movies that are good that we like to be getting to the top of the mountains. So it wasn't as intense as it has been in years past. Yeah, you know, we all know I'm not the movie. expert here, which is why I've never been on the big picture, but I did watch the movies this year. And I haven't done that since I worked for extra when covering the carpet. And there were so many movies that I liked that I didn't think I would like.

Amanda, I know you like Frankenstein. That definitely was one of my... You didn't? I thought you did. No, I thought you did like it. No, no, no, no. No, I didn't. Oh, yeah.

I liked it. Okay. But did you, that's great. Many people did. And, you know, we haven't been representing those voices on the big picture. So welcome. What you're responding to, Rachel, is me giving Amanda shit by saying, I know you loved Frankenstein sarcastically. Right.

But having such a deadpaned voice that you didn't even know that she is not like the film. Because I listened to your latest podcast. I did not hear you talk about it before. But I think the perspective of a person who doesn't watch movies as, you know, you guys do enjoyed it in a different way. Same with train dreams. That was probably one of my favorite movies to watch too because they both caught me by surprise. I guess in, and I was listening to you guys,

your latest podcast, and I know you do your predictions, you said that they got a couple of them wrong, but I didn't hear you say which ones you thought. What did you think they got wrong? You mean that the academy gave the wrong Oscar? The Academy gave the wrong. Which ones did you think they got wrong? Last night.

they were lower below the line categories for the for the most part or you know non best picture nominees documentary i would take back um that went to mr nobody against Putin uh which was not my favorite of a not particularly strong crop of documentaries the documentary branch in recent years has um taken a a hard turn or really prioritized serious subjects. And I think all five issues highlighted in the best documentary feature are very worthy and serious and deserve a spotlight. The way that the documentaries in question handle the various issues, you know, it varies. I don't know if I always agreed with the documentarians approach. And that was especially true for a Mr. Nobody against Putin. What else were we Absolutely. I'm still very upset about the best score Oscar. Not that Ludwig Gorensen didn't deserve it. I think he did. He's obviously, but he's 41. Now has three Oscars. He and Coogler have a, you know, long-term partnership. It's very cool. But Daniel Lapton from Marty Supreme was not even nominated. And I'm angry about that. That was my favorite score of the year. I think costume could have gone a different way. What am I forgetting?

Well, Sean Penn won, and that was kind of funny. Yeah. Because he stopped trying two months ago in the awards race. He showed up to the Golden Globes. He smoked a bunch of cigarettes on camera in a room. And he won an award. And actually, he didn't win that night, right? He lost to Stellen Scar's Guard.

And ever since then, he has stopped going to award shows, despite the fact that he won BAFTA, the actor award, and the Academy Award. There were rumors that he was perhaps in Ukraine last night. and I think he's really good in one battle after another, but my preference in that race would have been Benicio del Toro or Stalin Scarsguard or maybe even Jacob Allorty, or Delroy Lindo for that matter. So, you know, that wasn't my favorite win of the night.

I thought it was very amusing that he just skipped the show entirely, though. I don't know, there were not a lot of bad winners. I mean, as I said on the show last night, Paul Thomas Anderson is my dude. I mean, that's just a filmmaker that since I've been a teenager, as his movies have meant the world to me. so on a night when his movie triumphs in the way that it did, very rarely do I feel so excited about a lot of Oscar outcomes.

Let's talk about the word deserve. By the way, I have an interesting observation about the Sean Penn situation. I think that the academy, there's a part of me that feels like the academy maybe validates its seriousness by awarding him and the fact that he doesn't show up because there are a lot of other award shows out there that you winning sometimes seems contingent on you playing the game, on you doing all the stuff,

like coming out there, showing face, and coming to the award show, right? They are just saying straight up, this guy hates us, but it doesn't in any way take away from the fact that we thought his performance was the best for whatever reason, and we're going to give him this award

for the best performance, in that category, even if he doesn't show up to take it. There were a lot of people that I talked to last night that were annoyed that Sean Penn won and is giving the middle finger to the academy. But I think they're almost trying to give a middle finger to him. It's like, it doesn't matter whether or not you play the game. We thought that you were the best on screen.

Here, take your Oscar. Thoughts about that. Am I looking too deep into it? Well, no, I think there's some truth to it. I know that other people feel that way who, you know, didn't win or didn't get to see a winner or give a speech last night. There's a long history of this, the Academy Awards.

I mean, Marlon Brando said Sashin, Little Feather to accept an award some years ago to make a point about the silliness of the awards. Many people have not shown up and picked up their Oscars. It's not like this is the first time that that's happened. I have been saying this for a couple of months when it started to seem like he was going to win, that there is a certain kind of actor in the Academy who rises to a level, no matter what we do or do not know about their personal life, no matter how they perform in the world outside of movies, that they are. rubber stamped as one of the greats and you can say this is something that's happened to Daniel

Day Lewis in the last 15 years. It's something that probably happened for Merrill Street 25 years ago where they're just they're at the mountaintop in terms of their craft. Sean Penn, though he may not be very well liked, who is 65 years old, is actually considered one of the generational actors. He is someone who has carried movies and changed movie performance style for some actors, inspired a lot of actors throughout Hollywood and internationally. And so even though he's a weird cat and, and, you know, very, very aggressive in some ways, I think he still commands that respect.

And this win is kind of confirmation of that fact. It's an interesting performance to be the one performance at a one battle after another that wins because it's, it is a weird performance. It is big and not particularly subtle. And I don't think the character is written in a, in a subtle way. I don't think subtlety is a big part of what's going on through much of the structure of one battle after another. But, you know, he's walking funny and he's doing a lot of facial tics and, you know, the comb and the hair in the elevator.

It's very showy. It's very, hey, look over here. I am acting. And I, you know, to me, really showy acting doesn't always read as like the most, you know, the most, you know, serious and principled choice. So it's just kind of funny for me that, you know, the shiny candy performance won. But there is a history of the Academy being like, wow, that was really a transformation. Can you believe that that is Sean Penn? Look at what he's doing and look at how much he's doing.

There can be a volume quality to the voting. You also got to look at just the villain status of that movie and that the Academy loves to award villains. You know, you can go Ruth Gordon in Rosemary's baby. You can say Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs, Heath Ledger and the Dark Night. Both jokes. Javier Bardem and no country for old men. Yeah, I mean, the Academy loves villains and they love big, showy, loud, noisy performances in supporting categories. So it was a convergence. I think a very well-known person who has a lot of respect, plus the movie that is the strongest best picture contender, plus that villain.

So it all came together for him. I thought this was one of the most competitive categories for me. Like you listed off all the nominees. I thought either one of them could win and I could make a case for it based on watching the movie. movies. But I do wonder, because I remember when I was covering the stuff, it was always, when you were reporting, you're going to get actors that you never get before because everybody's going to come to the carpets because they have to play the game and they have to do the interviews and they have to be well liked. And I kind of liked the fact that he didn't do

that and he still won. Do you think, you call him a generational talent, which I agree, do you think that maybe we'll see more people do that kind of thing or he only gets away with it because he's Sean Pitt. No way. I mean, he already had two Oscars. You know, he was playing with House Money and so he had the ability to be like, I don't really care. No, thanks.

I won't show up. And it adds to his mystique. I'm going to start doing that with podcasts, though. Like, if I stop showing up for the pods, will they respect me more? Will people think better of me? Yeah. They might enjoy listening more.

I don't think we'll see this as a trend. I think it was a rare thing that he was able to do this. But I have been saying the same thing, Rachel. I thought it was kind of funny that he was like, no, fuck this. Like he doesn't, he just didn't care. Yeah, he threatened to melt down his old Academy Awards and use them as bullets for the Ukrainian army. Wow. By the way, he's won, even when he's won before, like to me, Mystic River was a big showy performance.

A lot of tears, a lot of, you know, they like that from Sean. All right. Before we get into the one battle after another, sinner's discourse, and shout out to the big picture Reddit. My people over there. They love me. They love me, Sean. They love me, Sean. I'm one of the most popular people ever on you guys as ready.

Before we get into sort of that dynamic, deserve. We say deserve, right? Obviously, this is a room full of the most fabulously talented performance in the world. When you guys say deserve, how do you make that equation work in your own heads? What is deserve, deserve an Oscar? We talked about on higher learning before. What does that mean? Well, it's an argument between us in real time, every time we talk about this stuff.

I think that we are both trying to weigh our individual opinions about the performances in the actual film and what we think is good and bad and how we respond to whether it's acting or cinematography or, you know, screenplay writing. And an example of that is, you know, I personally responded much more to Benicio del Toro's performance in one battle after another, which is the, you know, And it's supposed to be kind of the polar opposite of what Sean Penn is doing. It's a balance, but it's quieter. And then we can't help but put it in the context, not just of the year's awards race, but also what Oscar history, we are nerds. We grew up reading Entertainment Weekly. We look at all of these factoids for, like, in our spare time.

We care about who the Oscar goes to and what it says about, you know, the history of this made-up organization that we are not members of. So what when we're saying deserve, we do, I think, think a little bit about, okay, well, this person doesn't have an Oscar or this person has, you know, two Oscars, or this is what it would say about, whether it's this year of winners,

or this is what it will mean for this performance or this movie's history or for this actor's career down the line. We're trying to weigh all of the significance of it. But that's all to say that deserve is subjective and more than a little imperfect. One, I want to say I'm not a nerd. I'm a very healthy, normal man. And many people are saying this.

Yes, I do love the Jets, sadly. No nerd could ever love the Jets because that requires extraordinary strength. As far as the awards go, this dawned on me last night. Deserve is related to what Amanda was describing around history. and if we think about Paul Thomas Anderson in one battle after another, some people might say, well, this isn't his best movie, right? So why didn't he win for his best movie? Okay, so for me, his best movie is There Will Be Blood.

And There Will Be Blood came out in 2007. In 2007, No Country for Old Men won. For Me, No Country for Old Men is not the Cohen Brothers best movie. I like the movie quite a bit. But to me, I think they should have won realistically, maybe for Fargo, a year when they were nominated. So then you have to go back and say, okay well what won in 1996 that was was that was the english patient you know and so every time you play

this game you can kind of keep pushing further and further back and identify well okay so this filmmaker or this actor didn't quite win for the right movie and it's this kind of jenga tower of history that the academy has built for itself and it is constantly attempting to catch up with its own mistakes and those mistakes from our through our eyes are subjective of course and some might say well last night was a mistake and some might say well last night was designed deserved and strong wins, but there's no way to ultimately arrive at the correct definition of deserve because everyone has different relationships to different subjective forms of art. For me, it was very exciting to see Paul Thomas Anderson win. I think he should have won 20

years ago. Somebody else might feel like he should never win and he should go over 14. You know, it's just a podcast between two people nattering at each other about whether or not someone else should have a gold statuette and we're doing the best we can. Yeah, this might be a dumb question. She's with you now. No, no, no, this might be a dumb question. I hesitated to ask because I don't know if it's going to be super obvious. But when you talk about deserved and it being subjective,

when they are voting for the Oscars, is it subjective in how they vote? Or is there like a list in like, like, I'm sorry if this is like a stupid. question. No, it's a really good question. Yeah, do you mean for the nominations or for the once you're actually voting? What they're actually voting for? Is it based? Is it a bias? Is it, like I just said, some people do the interviews and are going around and and and. A thousand percent. Or is it like, okay. Well, then how do you even answer the question? And it really varies. There are a lot of different types of Oscar voters and there are, I think there are people in the Academy who are nerds like us and they watch every film and they take it very seriously and,

you know, they come as a cinephile. There are other people who have actually unlike myself and Sean worked in the industry for many years and actually know how to make films and are watching it from a both from a craft perspective. Maybe they're looking for different things in a film and where they've worked with a lot of different people and so they know what the experience is of working with someone or else. Then, you know, then there are many people who are either checking out screenings or watching it on the very, very fancy Academy Screener app because they're provided with all the nominees and, you know, coming up with their own opinions in a vacuum, then there are people, even though the Academy instituted a rule this year where you had to, like, self-testify,

is what they called it, that you had seen all the movies. There are people who don't watch all the movies. They just click the box and then vote for what they want. And, you know, and then they admit that to an anonymous ballot in one of the, industry trades, which is another kind of Oscar season tradition that is gross and we all read them every single year. Anyway, so there are many different people deciding to them what they think deserving is. And that is both the fun part and the horror of the Oscars all at once.

It's a unique blend of people voting and also trying to decide what good is. It's terrible and amazing all at once. Yeah. It's horrifying to me that people don't watch every movie in our voting. Honestly, I think it's getting better than it was for years and years. One of the reasons why the Academy has come under fire so many times about all kinds of bias is that the Academy was like an old boys club. I mean, it was largely male, largely white. And it was a lot of people who had known each other for a very long period of time voting for their friends or something that is still true, which is people who,

charmed them, that there are a lot of events that run over a three or four month period of time, then you know this well. You've been on the trail. You know the deal. If you can make an impression on a person and they're 50, 50 in a race, the person that they like more is going to get the vote. And so being charming is a skill in campaign season. That's completely different from did you like or dislike the performance or the craft work in a certain film. It's a popularity contest in some ways. And, you know, that's why that Sean Penn conversation that we just had is so interesting because he just dispensed with the popularity contest and it didn't matter. But that in my understanding and experience of talking to people who vote on these awards for years is very

rare. Most of the time, it's actually a person, I think honestly like Michael B. Jordan, who so many people just really, really like and admire. And when you do that and you combine it with a great performance and a movie people love, that is really the winning formula. Yeah, I, the energy behind him winning, we'll talk more about it a little bit later in the show. The energy behind him was unlike a lot of things that I've seen before. Like if anybody out there thinks that the way you come off to people or the impression that people have about you doesn't matter, Michael B. Jordan is destructive of that idea.

People love him. He is a guy that carries himself in a very distinct, respectable, likable human way. and that room last night was ecstatic to see him on the stage. And that's just the thing. That still matters. To Sean and Amanda's point, when Two Distance Stangers was going through

its Oscar run, one of the companies that we hired during the run told us that it was very important to get DVDs made of the movie to be able to get them out to voters. And we were like, why? They can go watching them the thing. And they were like, they're not going to watch it.

But if they have a lot of, a DVD in their hand of your movie, they'll think this movie is important. They'll think this matters. Look, I have something in my hand from the movie. They're not going to watch the movie. Like, in this category, it's going to be very

important for you to have the best campaign. Give them something to hold in their hands and it'll help you. And I was like, what the fuck that got to do with like, what happened? And they were like, no, just won't let you know. Like, the people, they're not going to... It's the game. And then you have a longer short. The people might not watch your movie. have something that they can have

and then that'll help you. All right. Sinners versus one battle after another. I look at these movies. Here we go. Here we go. I look at these movies as really kind of being the same movie.

And I think that people don't understand this about me. I think what I think is sinners is the cultural champion of a lot of a very distinct culture, black culture that sees himself on the screen. One battle after another is the cultural champion of sort of the super serious, I don't want to use the term film bro on my friend's podcast here

with my podcast and with my friends. But it's the champion of that culture. And I think the thing that was the most interesting about me about this race was watching a cultural battle being fought in the comments and on the internet that wasn't necessarily being fought

either in the town, or between the groups of creators that made these movies. They were very, very, very complimentary of one another. However, sinners being the mascot of obviously the cultural expression that was

expressing the movie and one ballad after another being the mascot of the PTA head, serious film going, 4K Blu-ray, physical media of people. Don't let me in with that. Okay. That was interesting to watch

because as the conversation got deeper, I feel like it became less about the films. You guys understand what I'm trying to talk about and how did that shake out on Oscar night? I mean, it didn't. I think you put your finger on it, that whatever fight seemed to be happening over the last couple of weeks in particular

between these two movies. And you got to consider that most people have not seen neither of these movies. They are two of the most popular movies that have been in a serious race for Best Picture in Academy history and certainly in the last 25 years. But even still,

a fraction of America and a fraction of the world have seen either of these movies. So when they get nominated and they get into a race like this over a period of months, more people start watching them and you find the kind of looky loo,

the casual comes in and it's like, all right, let me see what all the fuss is about. What is one battle after another? What is sinners? Are these movies really that good? And then, because they've been so hyped and they're in the middle of this very competitive and exciting race,

people will immediately come in and be like, here's a problem with this. Here's why this sucks. And so it seems noisier than it is. But you said, Van, like, in the academy, that's not what's happening. Some people might hold some of those feelings, but one battle after another isn't a Filmbrough movie in the academy. And Filmbrough movies historically do not do well at the Academy Awards.

It is a much different kind of movie than that. I think one of the primary reasons that it did so well is it was a movie that, at least to the voters, felt like it met the moment. And what is expressed on screen is something that we're seeing in the real world right now. And the Academy does like to pat itself on the back and say, to your point earlier that this is a very relevant award show. It's an award show that reflects something about what's happening in the country and in the world. And that is also true of sinners, but his sinners is more of a historical analysis and about the

connectivity of culture and power. One battle after another is a movie that at times looks documentary-esque in terms of, you know, showing how ice operates. And so I think the film had some advantages in that distinct respect in a race. But it was not like a needling, like, did you? get the 4K kind of expression of interest with one battle after another because that's just not how the academy operates. The people who vote on the Academy Awards work in the industry.

They make movies. They think about these things differently. I think that that's what made this award show this year so exciting. I felt connected to it. I loved the conversation that was being had online. And, you know, when you were like the look you lose, I was like, oh, that's me. Like the people who, you know, who don't necessarily, look, this is why we brought them on. So you could actually talk to people who really get it.

But I was one of those people, and I just felt myself just like completely diving in on the conversation that people were having. And normally when I find this very long award show, it's boring because so long, I, from start to finish, I loved every bit of it. And you could tell the audience did too. They were cheering at every, anytime Sinners was nominated for something, they now said they were cheering like crazy. It just felt different. There was a different type of joy. But going back to, I guess, you know, being subjective and the bias, do you think the cultural conversation that was being had online in any way played into the voting of this? I mean, how could you ignore it?

It was everywhere these two films against one another. We talk a lot about this on the show of just how much of the conversation and how much of specifically the Internet makes it and influences awards voting. how much of the academy is really online. And I think it's less than we, this generation of individuals who love to post, Van most of all, are online and less than we're consuming things. But more than would have been the case even 10 years ago and 15 years ago, I think what happened in terms of sinners and and one battle after another and um this you know this like not will they won't they but like who's going to win aspect of it was felt more in the the acting and the below the line categories and that people um maybe started paying more attention to different aspects of

the races not not because people were posting on the internet but because was like the Michael B. Jordan actor award win was so exciting. And so and clicked into place for someone, for so many people that it not only inspired a lot more internet chatter, but it did get voters attention as well. And some of that is also just timing, right? That was smack in the middle of Oscar voting. So I think the, I think that the discourse, if you will, is more like a reflection of where voting sentiments are than an influence, but I also I still think that it

as all internet discourse does, gets carried to extremes, you know? So I don't really think that it's that, I just don't think Academy voters are posting that much. I don't. Yeah. We kind of hope not. It was my favorite movie of the year. You guys know I'm handing it up.

But I shouted you out last night. I said that you said that. Yeah. People I loved, I loved the movie. Movie touched me most. People thought that my criticisms of one battle after another were because I was in the bag for sinners, I have to say that is inherently racist. Like, I'm just being for real.

Like that, that has never been the case. When I was actually taught, when I was on the big picture, I was like, yo, I love sinners. It's not what I would call the perfect movie. I said that very clearly. But people thought that I, I think I felt victim to one bad.

after another hype because I had heard legitimately from everyone that saw it that it was the best movie that had come out in 10 years, 15 years, whatever. And when I went to see it, I didn't connect to it in that way. Obviously a fantastic movie, right? I didn't connect to it in that way. And I had a problem. I talked about that. We're not going through that whole fucking thing again.

Wait, what was your problem? No, what happened? Shut up. No, you guys are trying to get me, Sean. But even after that, after I talked to more creators in the town, they were like, hey, Van, just let you know, that idea is a little reductive. I thought we had a beautiful conversation about that. But what ended up really happening with the movies is when you look at the way the Oscar shook out is they almost split the baby a little bit. Like there wasn't for one film this unbelievable runaway.

We sweep all the actor categories. we sweep. That did not happen last night for either movie. It was almost like the Academy was like, you guys, chill out. Everybody has their place, even though one battle after another one best picture. Am I off about thinking that?

No, we said this last night. I totally agree. I think part of the reason why this ultimately feels like not a very controversial Academy Awards, and frankly Amanda and I had a lot of fun watching the show, to your point, Rachel, where it was a good show, and it felt like the vibe was good, and then doing the podcast afterwards

was because we were like, this is a pretty, if not completely balanced outcome. A lot of good wins that I think fairly accurately represents the power of these two leading contenders. And that is something that it does feel like only shook out over the last couple of weeks. And I think in particular, Michael B. Jordan winning and Autumn Derald Archipaul

winning for Cinematica. They're awesome. Both of which were just great wins and exciting and historic in some ways and deserved from our subjective opinion. Didn't make it feel like a steamroll. I did say last night, when Cassandra Colacundas won for the Best Casting Award,

I did have a little pit in my stomach that was like, oh, no, I feel like we're getting to like an eight to two or nine to one, one battle after another night, you know, where they could win a lot of awards. And that sense of imbalance will then lead to a lot of very vocal frustration about the whiteness of the academy or the misunderstanding of sinners' power or something along those lines.

And that just did not happen. It never came to fruition. And I was really happy about that. But to your point about the balance, the Michael B. Jordan moment was electric. The Autumn Dural to Arkabal moment was just was moving and really exciting. And also Ryan Couglar running to get her child is just one of the instant best Oscar moments that I've seen. But for me, the heart of the show were the screenplay categories, which they chose to give out in succession. And so these were both expected wins. But it was adapted screenplay, went to Paul Thomas Anderson. And that was his first ever Oscar and five minutes later original screenplay went to Ryan Cougler, also his first ever Oscar. And you could see both men who have been on the award season for six months and very charming and very poised, really overcome and very nervous and very moved. And they each dedicated the award to their children in a very emotional way. And it was, and they were both

like historic moments for these two very venerated filmmakers. right in a row. And you just, you got a nice little, a nice little package. And it didn't feel, you know, like the, like the soccer participation trophy. It just felt like for a moment we got to have both of those people be rewarded for their, for their wonderful films. So, yeah, I, I'm with Rachel. I really liked watching it.

So I love to. I made us get out here in five minutes. So I want to get one more question in. Sean, you and I are going to talk about the fact, like in the office that now we got 15, I think it's 15 in a row of the original screenplay going to the guy who directed his movie. Yeah.

This is a... I'm glad you brought that up. This is... Guys, there are a lot of trembling pins around Hollywood right now. That's nuts. Like that is actually nuts. That's a deep film...

Well, that also... That's true and it represents a change. original screenplay has also always been the coolest award in my opinion yeah but it's always it always goes to like my personal favorite filmmaker who is maybe nominated in best picture best director but is like sophia coppola garrantino jordan peter like all the cool people win that there is there is a long history of that being the best award and i going to the best winner and i guess you know in the past 15 years we it's definitely a more like auteur driven uh industry and so that is what we award right now. So I have to get you guys both on this. Yeah. Did the Academy send a message to Timothy Shalame?

Not seriously. Like it, so Marty Supreme comes out and the movie is almost entirely in a way that one battle wasn't Leo was a ghost in this entire deal in the way that one battle wasn't

in a way that sinners even wasn't. Marty Supreme was the kinetic energy the star power, the force of Timothy Shalame. Almost supposed to be a coronation, guys. And this was one of the most muted presences from a guy in that situation at the awards that I've ever seen. Did the Academy and the Townsend a message to Timothy Shalemate?

I think so. I think it's hard to say they didn't, but I also think he had a steeper hill to climb than people realize. Interesting. Because he has emerged in the last seven years as arguably the only true

box office movie star of his generation. And that's something that we have said doesn't really happen anymore, can't really happen anymore. And the thing that I had been saying on the show for years is he needs to open an original movie

that he's on the poster of and carry it to great success. And he did it with Marty Supreme. This movie made $200 million worldwide. It's a period piece about ping pong. That's an amazing accomplishment. in and of itself. He used his kind of like very New York, swaggering forward personality to get that movie seen and sold.

He also talked a lot and did a lot of various interviews and activations and online gimmicks and in doing so, he did, I know just from talking to people who vote and are in the game, he rankled older people. There's no doubt about it. On top of the fact that it is extremely rare for a 30-year-old to win best actor, The Academy historically does not award young men. There are some exceptions, but it's not common. They usually make them wait. Leonardo DiCaprio had to wait until he was in his 40s to win for the Revenant.

So it's not surprising that he didn't win. I think the message that was sent, and tell me if you disagree with this, felt a little bit more loud in the last two weeks in the aftermath of the ballet and opera controversy, where it felt like everybody was kind of content to make him a punching bag, as opposed to just saying you can't win now. Like we're actually going to make a point to tell you to stay in your place and keep your mouth shut for another 10 years

and then maybe we'll let you come back around to our award show. I don't know if you agree with that. I do. And I don't think you should listen. I want Timmy to keep shining. I think that I just, I loved Marty Supreme.

I thought that the promo tour that he did, he got people into theaters to see that movie. And it was very clear he had a box office promo strategy and then he had an Oscars strategy. and everyone noticed the shift. And I guess the box office, the Marty of it all did wrinkle people, as did the character itself,

as did the performance. I know many people who didn't like Marty Supreme because they couldn't stand that character. They thought that character was a bad guy, which, I mean, he sort of is. I mean, he definitely is. One of the great shitheads

in movie history. Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful. So I get it. I agree with Sean that some of it is outsized, post-voting reaction to those viral comments. And, you know, there's a little bit of a Blake lively effect where it just does seem like there were a lot of people waiting on the internet with their opinions. And a lot of people waiting for a moment to pile on to this person really

annoys me. And I have some other things to say. It's a modern internet phenomenon that is separate from industry feedback. But you're not wrong that the town, sent him. The town didn't give him the Oscar. He didn't win. Mm-hmm. No. Well, that's a big picture. You guys, I'll tell you what, I saw a picture of Sean and he was standing next to Steven Spielberg. They did down there in South by Southwest. And I just imagine what must have been going. Think about the things. It's like, you were like a, little boy, like a young man. It was that the first time you booted up close encounters and you said, you guys, the big picture is the most important movie podcast in the

world and we got them to come on higher learning and talk about all my crazy shit all rachel's crazy shit rachel didn't even know who stevens spillberg was until earlier this morning um so she had no clue she was like is that the what's like jaws but we thank you guys for joining us until next year yeah yeah yeah yeah thank you for having us love you guys timmy might be back dune three timmy might be back i believe i believe it's believe timmy might be back doing he never left me All right. We appreciate you guys joining us on higher learning. All right, take in caps off,

but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen, Jr. I'm Rachel Lundon. Hold on, before we go, before we actually do that, before we go. What's you got going on, man? What's up with you? What do you mean?

You know what I'm talking about. No, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I want to know either. What's popping with you? Nothing's popping with me. You sure? Yeah. A lot of people have been saying a lot of stuff.

Nobody's been saying anything. And if they have, I don't know. You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. It's not that I don't care. I don't know. You don't care what people say.

I'm curious. I'm curious. They've been talking. They've been saying stuff. Good or bad. Setting the streets on fire. Setting the streets on fire. You was out.

You made the most out of an Oscar week that I think of anyone I know. I was at two of the things you were at. And you worked. Yeah, I worked when. Y'all check Van out on CNN. Yeah, I did a terrible job. Look, here's a deal. Just know that like a lot of people in this last couple of years.

post divorce post divorce people really feel like you didn't really nothing that you did count it while you before nah

damn people were like I literally was talking to someone this is a real conversation that happened and they was like how long Rachel been out here I'm like five or six years

it's like five or six years and it was like yeah and then and then he was like he was like eating a finger food he was like oh yeah but that don't count I was like why

she was with that white boy before and we didn't really see her. She out here now, though, nigga. I was like, I was like, I was like, and he took a bite, I laughed so hard. I laughed so like, she was with that white boy. She's out here now, don't nigga. I was like, oh, okay.

I want to know who that was off my butt. Do you know what? Offer what? There is, huh? Tough. Go ahead. There is truth in that, right? There's for sure truth.

But the bigger thing is people don't realize I worked for extra. I had no days. off. So I never had time to go to any kind of events. I worked before I came into the podcast. I'd hit carpets and junkets after the podcast on the weekends. Normally during awards season, I'm on a carpet. So that's the only time you could really see me. I didn't have the freedom that I do now to go to different events, to see different people. So that's part of it too. So it's kind of right on time. Like right when the divorce happened, I stopped working an extra so I could just, you know, fly.

It's funny because they, people, and we do gotta go, but people are excited. I need you to share more of this with me. They are. Like, they feel like you didn't fuck with them first. Because sometimes I'm like Van just be talking and you don't, you don't share with me. They don't, they felt like you didn't fuck with,

they felt like you didn't. All right, well, I'm here now, y'all. They feel like you didn't, they didn't fuck with us at first. That's fair. I was with somebody that wasn't black. I get it. Yeah, so now they, but now they see you around. They like, what's going on?

like she's out here. It's funny. Okay, just making sure. But nobody comes and talks to me. That's interesting. They don't come and talk to me. Let's go. I'm Rachel and Lansing. Hi, guys.

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