Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Jon Gruden Resigns and Kyrie Irving’s Personal Decision

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay check in with instant reactions to some breaking news that’s got the people a-buzzing. Now-former Las Vegas Raiders head coach Jon Gruden steps down after offensive emails see the light of day (5:25), Nicki Minaj defends Jesy Nelson and the art of ‘blackfishing’ (29:59), and Kyrie Irving gets an unvaccination vacation (38:04). Plus, Superman comes out and the homophobes go bananas (44:29). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's me, Van Lathen, host of Higher Learning. I wanted to tell you about one of my very favorite shows on our network, The Ringerverse. Head into the Ringerverse to stay up to date with all things superhero and nerd culture entertainment. This week, we covered No Time to Die, which is the latest installment in the James Bond franchise and the last starring Daniel Craig. And let me tell you the Midnight Boy. in particular have a lot to say about no time to die. This week we also covered the teaser trailer to House of the Dragon, which is a prequel to Game of Thrones.

Now, Game of Thrones has a lot of making up to do. Okay? We all saw the last season. We saw the last episode. Hopefully House of the Dragon can steer us in a new direction. But no matter what you think of the content, the takes on the ringerverse are hot. They're coming up hot.

All right. I love this. I love the ring. You know what I love? I love the Ring ofverse. I love it. It's amazing. I love Mallory Rubin.

I love Charles Holmes. I love Joanna Robinson. I love the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. Some would say, I love the Midnight Boys. It's almost as if I am one. It's amazing. Okay.

You can find the Ringervverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and you better listen because Ringervverse is. is taking over the fandom space, baby. Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is Ivan Lathen Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

Emergency episode. Listen, yes, yesterday was Indigenous People's Day, so we had a fantastic interview that you guys heard from or with, I should I say, with Lynette Graybull. It was great, very informative. Great feedback from the Thought Warriors, too. Thought Warriors like this. They should because they are now more equipped to be on top of a very, very prevalent and urgent problem facing indigenous people, specifically indigenous women here on the North American continent.

Now, really all over the place, but we were talking about specifically all the North American continent. But you guys, there's just too much going on right now for us not to give you our takes on it. All right. We got a lot of stuff happening. Look at him. Look at him. If you're watching now, he is full of delight. He is smiling.

He's beaming. He loves an emergency podcast. He lives for it. I love an emergency podcast. We're talking three things here. We're talking John Gruden, who is the coach of, excuse me, who was the coach of the Las Vegas Raiders. He has resigned from his post as the coach. We'll touch on that.

We also have to talk about a new development with Kyrie Irvin and the Brooklyn Nets and a little bit about some of the hubbub that was made. yesterday, which was National Coming Out Day. Okay, it was amazing. I didn't even put that together. Yeah, National Coming Out Day when they announced that Superman's son, John Kent, who is now, I guess, has his own Superman title, is in fact bisexual. And the homophobes went bananas. All right. But you know what the crazy thing about the homophobes are?

Mm-hmm. What? There's a lot. when I say that the homophobes went bananas, that's going to make them uncomfortable. Oh, I figured you used bananas. You could have said ham. You could have said they went ham.

They went crazy. They went wild. But rightfully so. Bananas. Or if they didn't go bananas, they went nuts. Ah, you're so mad. Y'all mad. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't add to this.

A little Dave Chappelle talk just a little bit. and Nikki Minaj, who is defending a singer that, to be honest with you, I never heard of. Never. I didn't heard of until she became a black woman. Jesse Nelson, I didn't know who she was, but when she became a black woman, you know, I didn't ask when I found out about her. And I guess she did a song with Nikki Minaj. They accused her of blackfishing, which we need a new term. You don't like it?

Do we know how it originated? Well, from catfish. Oh, is that how it came? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it comes from catfish, catfish to blackfish. But I don't know why black fishing seems like you're fishing for niggas. Well, that is what it sounds like. But no, I think they're trying to make it seem like it's catfish, right? Because you're pretending.

Because you're pretending. Because I saw a picture of these two and I thought they were two black women. Let me ask you a question. If you were fishing for niggers, what would be your bait? What would you use? Let's say there was a big lake with black people. Myself. Oh, Jesus Christ.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Gone fishing. Wow. Gone fishing. I don't know. I hooked some grapes soda and the end of my line. Anyway. Not grapes. Not grapes. That comment was worse. And you swimming over to that shit, like, was that Welch's? For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, John Gruden has resigned as a Las Vegas Raiders head coach. after reports of anti-gay, misogynistic language that was being used in his emails. This comes on the hills of another revelation that he had sent emails that used a racist trope to refer to a high-ranking member of the NFL Players Association who happens to be black, happens, to be black, happens. It was an accident. John Groon, if you don't know who he is, has been. a head coach in the league at different times for a long time now.

He was the head coach of the Raiders back in the day. He was actually traded to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers where he won a Super Bowl. And then he went on to have a very successful stint as a Monday night football on-air analyst calling the game. He was very, very good calling the games on Monday night football. I really love to listen to him. And he also had a little separate deal with ESPN called Grudy's quarterback camp. We bring all the QBs in because he's known as an offensive genius.

He's worked with a lot of quarterbacks. John Gruden has a sterling reputation in terms of being a football mind. But a prickly one when it comes to dealing with players and now a completely tarnished one when it comes to his personal views and beliefs. Now, all of these things were made public while the NFL was doing an investigation, I think it's the NFL that was doing an investigation into the Washington football team. Emails were uncovered. and in these emails, John Gruden said all kinds of shit.

He called Roger Goodell the F word. He called him a clueless anti-football P word. He also used homophobic slurs to describe NFL owners, coaches, and reporters who cover the league. He also reportedly exchanged emails with someone that included photos of women wearing only bikini bottoms. One photo reportedly included two Washington, football team cheerleaders. That is just the tip of the iceberg with this. Now, this came out late last night,

almost during the same time as a Monday night football game. The racist trope stuff was earlier in the weekend. He apologized for that. The Raiders played. When you heard that he was gone, what did you think? Well, obviously I was paying attention to the story as it was happening, saw the developments with the emails. they went through 650,000 emails.

Also, it should be known that he wasn't just sending emails just to random people. He was sending them to the president of the Washington football team, which is why this whole investigation got started, just doing an investigation on that team, and just sending them to other important people within the league. So this is what I thought when I saw this. I don't know if you were ever told the saying growing up, but it was integrity is who you are.

when nobody's watching, right? Or when nobody's looking. You heard that statement before? Mm-hmm. That is exactly what I thought about when I saw these emails with John Gruden. And it's been really, really interesting to see the response from sports analysts and former NFL players and coaches, which were ranging from tears to anger to acceptance. And if you saw Randy Moss, who is my all-time favorite player, he was very emotional when he was on ESPN and he was talking.

about John Gruden and he's talking about his frustrations about we should be moving backwards. We should we should be moving forwards. And he was frustrated that we're not. And I listened to that and I thought, you know, the truth is we're not moving backwards. And if anything, these emails like this show us that we were never moving forward. This is the present. This is just how it is right now. I mean, this is a culture where this culture, this NFL, it's an organization that is founded

on systemic racism. And these emails are the personification of the good old boys and their club. It's a white male members only club that continues to operate and rule in a certain way that doesn't allow the very people that John Gruden was talking about in a negative way to get into this club. Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Indians, Native Americans, women, LGBTQ plus. All minority represented groups. They're not allowed in this club, which is why he felt free to talk about these things.

And he said some really, really foul things, and it seems like nobody was untouched, right? This was not ignorance. This was not a one-time deal. This did not just happen 10 years ago, as some people are saying, this was not done out of emotion because he didn't like a rule or he didn't like the way negotiations were going. This is who John Gruden is. And when he thought that the public wasn't paying attention or the media or the NFL, he said all these things through email, not once multiple times.

with his whole mind, his body, and his soul. He meant that shit. And he's 58 years old. So at this point, this is who this man is. He knew better and he chose not to do better. And him resigning does not give him any points in the accountability department. He is not sorry. He is just sorry he got caught.

And I really am frustrated when I see some of these people online like the Mike Torikos and the Tony Dunges. And I love Tony Dungy. But I'm disgusted and I'm disturbed by the way that they're. They handled this entire discussion. They talked about how John Gruden isn't this person who they thought he was. When they were around him, he was one way. And I'm looking at him like, okay, and when they weren't around you, this is, or when he wasn't around you, this is exactly who he was.

He was saving face in front of you, but behind emails, he was telling his good old boys exactly how he really feels about some of these issues, how he feels about you, how he feels about women, how he feels about people in the LGBTQ plus community, how insensitive. he is. And I just didn't understand why these two men, these two black men, influential black men in sports, had the audacity to take up for him. And I don't understand why this type of behavior with these two with Mike Tariko and Tony Dungey continues to happen. I don't understand why they continue to excuse someone's behavior for that or say things like, well, when I knew him, he wasn't like this or he never did this around me, as if that excuses that he could never be

capable of doing anything like this. And I don't understand why as black people, we feel like it's our place to save racist and misogynistic and homophobic and pompous pieces of shit like John Gruden. We have to stop doing this. It's not our place to take up for them. It's our place to stand up for ourselves and condemn this type of behavior. And I really, really hope, I really hope that what happened to John Gruden has people who think like him, who act like him, scared. I really hope that they're scared and thinking that, you know what, pretty soon my day is coming where I'm going to be exposed from my problematic behavior as well. Well said. So I'm going to split the difference here on a couple of things.

So there are two things in here that got to me specifically. Now, guys using, let me be very careful here. Guys using homophobic slurs or other slurs to insult other guys is just to be honest with you, something that I'm very familiar with. Right. Right. Doesn't make it right. You're just familiar with it. It doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it right, right? It doesn't make it right at all. And it's something that needs to be really out of the culture because it dehumanizes people. Remember, it was a while ago, my favorite athlete of all time. Kobe Bryant was on the bitch and on television Kobe Bryant was screaming the F word at somebody right? I think we're to a point in society now to where that type of behavior will be rooted out and called out and you know you're done we're we're to the point to where we

understand kind of what that does and maybe we were to that point when Kobe was doing it maybe we've always been at that point just chose to ignore it. Two things that John Gruden said specifically got to me and let me know that this is deeply rooted in him, that it wasn't. Not that I'm excusing what Kobe did, not that what I'm excusing the many other times we've heard words like that thrown around and guys, it's just an insult. I didn't mean to hurt anyone. He specifically said that he criticized Roger Goodell for pressuring, pressuring a former St. Louis Rams coach Jeff Fisher to draft queers. Mm-hmm. That tells me that John Gruden needs to work on himself.

Mm-hmm. And I think the work that John Gruden needs to do on himself cannot be done while also handling the workload of being the head coach of the Las Vegas Raiders. I think it would be unfair to the entire community there in Las Vegas and the fans of the team. I think it would be unfair to call Nassad, the first openly gay player to, to play in the NFL for John Gruden to be the coach of the team. Okay. Also, he criticized female referees, lady referees, women referees. There seems to be some stuff that's going on with John Grude. And let me be very clear. You guys have heard me on this podcast talk about the fact that I don't like

when people go and get old stuff from people back in the day and then bring it up in order to get them fire from their current jobs. Your quote about integrity, I've heard it, but I don't think I really believe it. And maybe I've just seen too much. I know that it's never as wild or as live as it is in a group chat. It's never as wild or as live as it is when you don't think anybody else is going to talk about it.

You say things you wouldn't say publicly. You do things you wouldn't do publicly. That's human nature. I think integrity really has less to do about what you might say and more to do about what you might do. You know what I mean? And so that's why I say like if you go back and pull anybody's old shit or anybody's old stuff, they might have said a lot of things trying to be wild, trying to be irreverent,

trying to be provocative, or just saying them because maybe they thought them in a moment. but did they conduct themselves based upon what you thought that they said or what they said or how they acted right so i don't so i mean i just we'll agree to disagree on that one well i mean we we we do because i mean like for example give an example jesse jackson called jesse jackson on hot mic call him barack obama all kind of niggas got my hot bite this nigger owes me this this nigger owes me that this nigger like deriding the president going in on that's the way he felt. But did Jesse Jackson publicly then take his large platform and try to delegitimize Barack Obama?

No. And I think the fact that he had actual feelings, and I can give, there are myriad examples of this. I think the fact that he had actual feelings that in a moment, two moments or three moments, like he got off of his chest or said to people. where he didn't think anybody would hear them, I think that doesn't really compare to what he could have used his platform to have done to actually injure the president, right? There was something that stopped him.

And to me, sometimes integrity can be the thing that stops you from acting out in your own interests when you know that there's a greater good. I'm just saying that just to say that I think that if a lot of people's probably emails, if a lot of people's private text messages, If a lot of people's private, whatever, were made public, they'd have some explaining it to do. But beyond that, the only reason why I say that is just for consistency sake. I'm saying this in this case with him is that he's in a leadership position.

This was uncovered, and he's got to go deal with it. Now, there are a lot of people who've had stuff come out and they've gone and deal with it, and they're fine. Whatever. You deal with it. You accept the consequences. That's fine. But the accountability has to come.

It would be no different as if we feel. found out in 19 in 2010, 2010, 2011 that John Gruden had robbed Fort Banks and got away with it. You know, statute of limitations on that is not up. You have to be accountable for the things that you did. And they have very real world effects on people. And in this case, he is the head coach of an NFL football team, meaning he makes personnel decisions, or at least has influence in them. Meaning he's a leader.

He sets the tone for a locker room. He sets the tone for an organization. and in the current climate that we're in and trying to be the climate that we're trying to be in John Gruden is a fit for leadership and so I don't think that there's anyone that would

that would really disagree with that besides people are trying to make a point to Mike Toriko and Tony Dungey specifically Tony Dungey Tony Dungey is inside of he made his living inside of NFL locker rooms. I'm not going to defend Tony Dungey,

but I'll tell you this, Tony Dungey's hurt worse. He's hurt worse. He's had to deal with all different types of personalities. He had racist players on his team. He had to make them get along with guys that were from other places. He's dealt with all kinds of things.

And those guys wanted to move past it. With the things that Gruden had said, a lot of people could pass them along as just being either off color or disrespectful. I don't think there was the buzzword inward that was in there that would get people to go fuck this guy. I never want to see him again. And I didn't see just it wasn't just those two. I saw Charles Woodson, another guy who have a lot of respect for him. You know, they wanted to move on and they wanted to kind of get past it.

I don't think, I don't have a problem with them doing that at all. But I can tell you what, we keep talking about this. everybody's going to feel that way. And there are certain people that if you come for them, if you insult them, or if you seem as if you're a threat to them and the power and the influence that you wield are a threat to them, they want the threat gone. They're fighting for their lives every day. So I'm never going to get on anybody for forgiving, even though sometimes I think it's

lame and weak. but in this case I think the totality of things he had to go like the he definitely had to go although I do believe sincerely and I know that if we want to set a standard

that like everything that you've said behind closed doors is fair game for everyone I think there will be a lot more people in trouble than you think there would be I will say to this though though this is not, this is what I'll say. I'll say to this particular point,

what got me is that this wasn't a text message thread. This wasn't a hot mic. This wasn't him being recorded. These were emails that he was sending to the Washington football team. Because he could. Right. Because he felt untouchable.

You're talking to the president. Your brother's the coach of the team. You felt like you could say these things and no one would find out. You wouldn't get reprimanded for it. Like that's a bold move to put that kind of stuff in writing. And I get what you're saying about like how guys talk in locker room talk and it not being okay. I'm just guys, girls.

Fine, girls too. Yeah, people period. People period. People period. People period. We'll say people period. People period. I get what you're saying about that, but I just feel like there is such a difference here.

Did you see what, did you see what Keishon Johnson said? I did. Kishon Johnson thinks John Gruden is a piece of shit. Yeah, he does. And, but he was speaking from personal experience having been coached under him and kind of basically said the what you're reading in these emails, everybody whispered that this guy will say one thing in your face and be totally different behind your back. Right.

And he would hear it from assistant coaches who coached under him. He might hear it from players. He would hear it around the league that this was kind of the general consensus as to who John Gruden really is. And he said he's never talked about it before. But now with these emails coming out, he's talking about his own personal experience with John Gruden. And when you talk about, and you and I, anybody who listens to this podcast,

knows Van and I disagree with digging up tweets. We differ on the age. We differ on like the amount of times people say it. Like we'll always have this back and forth battle when it comes to it. But I think that here there's a big difference and you use the comparison with Jesse Jackson. Jesse, I do not know what Jesse Jackson specifically said about Barack Obama. But from what you're telling me on this podcast, it seems like he was talking about him and he was emotional and saying how he feels. and he was talking specifically about Barack Obama.

That's not what John Gruden did. John Gruden wasn't just speaking out of emotion. John Gruden criticized multiple groups of people, marginalized groups of people over the years consistently doing it. This wasn't just locker room talk. This is how he felt about a rule that was in place, about changes that were being made, and the very league he has made his living off of.

That is the problem with what John Gruden was doing. It was showing a consistent, pattern of behavior that was offensive to a lot of different people. So it's a difference from what, you know, maybe a Jesse Jackson was saying, inventing and talking about a specific person where what John Gruden was doing was offending so many different groups of people. I mean, and even as talking about something we were just talking about on this podcast, Eric Reed, there's conference, there's emails where he was talking about Eric Reed and him

and how he felt like he shouldn't be in the league. So this was going on and on and on about multiple issues, political, social justice, women, being progressive. This is a man who could not continue to work in the organization that he was in or even under this league. You're criticizing the very person that runs it. That probably was the Nell in the coffin right there when you're talking about the commissioner multiple times. So I do think that this is one where I really think this is black and white to me. No, I mean, he definitely had to go. Like, it has nothing to do with me not thinking that John Gruden had to go.

It, I guess my whole thing is that there is a certain mutated purity demon that's kind of escaping into our culture, right? And that demon says, if you've ever said anything bad or if you've ever even done anything bad, then, this is how we this is what we do to you. But that's not what this situation is. No, it doesn't. But but but just specifically to the point about I was specifically talking about the point that you brought up about integrity is what you do when no one's watching. I just, I don't think that's a human standard.

Like I, I really like when nobody's watching people just like human, human beings, man, look, when nobody's watching, when nobody's watching. you get a little bit more from the cookie yard. When nobody's watching, you run red lights at night. I think what you do when you're called is the way I choose to measure people. I only brought up the, the, I get what you're saying. The Jesse Jackson thing just because that's a very, very funny piece of audio. I'm going to have to go back and listen to it.

I understand what you're saying in regards to the saying integrity, but I think for this situation, it applies because I think these emails are very, very telling and give insight into how the character that is John Gruden. There's a whole worldview. And the worldview makes you wonder how much damage John Gruden has done throughout the years. By the way, I will say this. There's a lot of people out here that are talking about both sides of their mouths. Of course.

Let's watch the first take this morning. Uh-oh. Who are we going to talk about? Your boy. I honestly didn't see him. I only saw what Kishan had to say. Watch the first take this morning. I was listening to him talk about how the league has treated so many people.

Oh, here you go. Including Colin Kaepernick. Stephen A. Smith is in no place to criticize how anyone is treated Colin Kaepernick. Like he's not like I want everybody to know that this is who runs. runs the NFL. These guys are the guys who run the NFL, the John Gruden's. They run the league. They don't like you and your same-sex relationship. They don't like your woke bullshit. They hate it. And when you're not around, they talk shit about you. That's life. The only time that it really matters is when someone says, hey, you know what? I feel like those ideas actually cost me. Like I feel like those ideas, they actually cost me. Like, you know, people already, they're talking.

shit like I'm of the you don't have to like me you don't have to you know but like when I'm at my job you can't bring that there with Carla Kaepernick and Eric Reed were saying well hey these guys feel this way and then it like presented itself as we can't play football anymore so it's not just hey I just can't stand these niggers in their marching it's like nah this nigga can't come play football we have to discuss this and so when I saw that this morning from Stephen A I'm like bro, you helped the NFL kick caps back in. Like, you helped it. Like, you helped him.

He also brought up Ray Rice, which shouldn't have brought up Ray Rice. Ray Rice did his own self-in once again. Like Ray Rice did his own self-in. To go back and look at that. Ray Rice. All right. So look, John Grun's career is over. He's done.

He'll never see him again. He'll go through like a whole, like, you know, he might do like a, I don't think he will. A reclamation project. Nah, you might see. Don't, listen, I'm telling you right now. don't be surprised if in two years you see John Gruden

coaching like an inner city football team in the hood and here's a and before the draft here at ESPN we would just want to tell you a story of redemption I don't believe it honor and reclamation that you've never seen

disgrace coach John Gruden is now coaching in South Baton Yeah, you know, it's something, you know, after all of that stuff happened, it's just it's something that I thought I needed to do just to come down here and, you know, give these little nigglets what they need in order to know. I love the word nicklets. All right.

All right. Randy Moss cried. Don't talk about my favorite player. Don't talk about my favorite player. I know. He cried. emotional. I was, I didn't know that was coming. Right, he cried. Randy Moss cried. But the reason I discovered Randy Moss cried is because I saw Jason Whitlock trending and I saw

his video imitating Randy and I was like, what did Randy do? That's how I discovered it. Jason Whitlock was crying? No, he was imitating Randy Moss crying. Oh, was he? Yeah. I want to say it. Talking about his lips, talking about him soup coolers saying he wasn't offended. We get too sensitive and care with the white man things. You know Jason, typical Jason. Jason Whitlock. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimfaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trimphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-77-3-3-3-3-3-3-1-1-6-7-7-3. to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo.

That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash, Active Cash terms of play. Nikki Minaj is also doing something that you hate.

She's defending white people. Jesse Nelson was a singer from Little Mix. You ever heard of Little Mix? I'll tell you why I've heard of them. Oh, wow, Little Mix. But I didn't know who was in it. I just had heard of the group. Every Bachelorette has a theme song

and a commercial that comes with it. And mine was That's Our Girl. And the song is by a Little Mix. That's how I found out who they were. Did you choose that? No. Yeah, choose it. So I guess Little Mix is hot.

If I was choosing my song that year, it would have been like, I'm a boss-ass bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Bitch. Bitch. You can't say that. Y'all hear that? So they did a song together called Boys and then the Boys, Jesse Nelson looks like fucking Janika Nelson. and she's all dressed up. You know, they sample puff. And she got her skin darken.

She curling her lip. She got door knocker earrings on, the long acrylics. She's doing the whole cosplay. And they got at her for it. And Nikki Minaj defended her. Nikki Minaj has been defending Jesse. First of all, Jesse said that she loves black culture. She loves black music.

That's all she knew. That's what she grew up on. I'm very aware that I'm a white British woman. I never said that I wasn't. Nikki Minaj has said that she doesn't think that the black fishing thing is being applied evenly that we don't say anything about the Kardashians black fishing. I don't know where the fuck Nikki Minaj has been. She's always loud and wrong.

Like if loud and wrong was a person, it is Nikki Minaj for sure. Somebody has to say it. She is consistently wrong. She talks out both sides of her neck. She does. She always does. She's always has something to say. And she's just, there's just, it's not founded in anything.

Are you, are you saying you're over Nikki's shit now? A hundred percent. I'm sorry, somebody had to say it. Somebody has to say it. So, Nikki is just going full on. And this is a string of stuff for Nikki. This is, this is kind of Nikki post vaccine. This is Nikki.

Post her husband's business being out. There's a lot of stuff going on with Nikki right now. But they did a live stream Instagram live situation where they talked about it. And it seems as if what Nikki is saying is like the only reason why people think that Jesse is blackfishing is because she did a song with Nikki Minaj. She said that they accused Bia of blackfishing. She said somebody else did a song with Nikki Minaj and they also blackfished. Isn't Bia after?

Afro Latina? I have no clue. I don't know. I thought she's Afro Latina and white. I never know who Bia is. Yes, you do. I don't. What's the song?

There's a whole lot of money in this. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. You know that song. Never heard of it. I put all my jewelry just to go to the bodega. You've heard everybody. Yes, Van, you're on social media too much to not have heard that line.

Whatever it is, I never heard it. You know what I heard? When I'm in a room with a bitch and a hudder on a fuck, like a man, I'm going to beat my meat. Did you figure out which album that was on? No, it's not which album. It's on 400 degrees, but I... Oh, I thought you said you didn't know it was on 400 degrees. Okay, okay.

No, no, I said, sometimes I get juvenile on fire and the song 400 degrees mixed up. I don't know why. But it's on 400 degrees for sure. Okay. If I'm listening to 400 degrees every day, you know what I? Listen, I'm a big fan. That's juvenile on fire, though. Yo, so Nicky and I seems to think that we're overstating black fishing.

Now, as a... black man, we don't really get blackfished. When they blackfish, they look almost exactly like you. When they, black face, yes. They go right past fish to face. When they blackfish is normally somebody who looks basically exactly the way you look in this picture right now is what they look. That's that this is the, this is the look that they go for when they blackfish. They go. Yeah, right now. They go for the look that you have right now. What's the look I have right now? They go for the braids, the baby hair. This is the look. You are the ideal blackfish candidate right now.

Do you feel betrayed by Nikki? You are. Do you feel betrayed by Nikki Minaj? No, because Nikki Minage has been, I'm not even surprised that she defended Jesse. It's just, Nikki, you already laid out how Nikki has been. Nikki, we got to stop looking for Nikki for answers or looking for Nikki to take up for us to have our back. What I have learned, at least over the last year with Nikki, is Nikki is only looking out for Nikki. Nikki is only looking out for herself.

The only reason she's even talking, she did a live with Jessie, who still looked like she was in blackface in that live. She did a live with Jesse, defending Jesse because she's in the song with Jesse. Otherwise, Nikki would have had nothing to say. She wouldn't care. She probably would have been like, who is Jesse? And Nikki was probably in the video because it sampled a song Bad Boy for Life with Diddy, who's also in the video. Also, did you ask Diddy about it? No, I didn't ask Diddy.

I didn't ask Diddy about it. You know what? She looks like Aubrey O'Day to me in a lot. And like I was like, I wonder. Was Aubrey O'Day back in the day? I need to go back and look. I don't know. But she gave me Aubrey O'Day vibes.

But that was also just like, you know, like the lip filler and she was dancing. She had like the big hair. I don't know. See, I think that people. used to do the cultural appropriation, but not necessarily to black fishing. And this is what I don't like with Jesse. You can like black music. You can have grown up on it.

But that doesn't mean that you also now need to be black as well. There's a difference. And if you do love our culture so much and you love the music, then why would you not listen to another black person tell you how what you're doing is offensive? Yeah, not just another black person, but Leon Panach. Pinnock who was in Little Mix, who had some things to say. And Nikki Minaj said that she was clout chasing. Nikki Minaj said that.

And what's Jesse doing? Jesse is just, Jesse is getting introduced to Black Twitter. See, we weren't on Little Mix. So she could have been in Little Mix, fucking twerking. You know what I'm saying? Singing about Marcus Garvey. She wasn't. There's a, there's a timeline of how her look changed.

Oh, is there? So she got blacker as time went on? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As time went on, she continued to black it up. She just got blacker and blacker and blacker as time went on. Interesting.

I just don't know. Same thing I said about Undergruden with Tariko and Dungey. We don't always need to speak up and take up for these people. That's not our place. And what Jesse was looking for... These people. And what Jesse was looking for was somebody who would defend her and who's on her side. another black person told you what you were doing is problematic and it's offensive.

And you went for a black person. Instead, you ignored that. Ignored the issue because you can. Because any day you can wipe your face and go right back to your whiteness. And instead you found the one black person who's going to agree with what you're doing and promote it. Because she got a song to promote too. She has to justify what you did because she is in the video as well. Nikki has to be okay with this because she co-signed Jessica.

in this video. She's got to. This is what I mean about Nikki being for Nikki. Because also the criticism is going to wash over into her. Exactly. Because once people go, hey, then people go, Nikki Minaj was right there. She ain't say anything. She's got to be okay with it. You all got to pay attention to that. Nicky's for Nikki. Are you okay with Kyrie Irvin? I'm okay with what Kyrie Irvin did because I'm okay with the response from his team. He's made a personal decision. Kyrie Irvin has made the personal decision not to get Vaca Vaca. And because of that, the Brooklyn Nets, Sean Marks has come out.

And Sean Marks has said, hey, Kyrie Irvin is not going to be able to practice with us, not going to be able to be around us until he can fully participate. Now, there was some speculation that Kyrie Irvin would still be allowed to practice because some regulations had changed there in New York where he could actually practice with the team, but not be, you know, playing in the games and the home games thing. And that maybe he would be able to go to practice and play half the season. And that would be the worst case scenario. Now it seems that the worst case scenario is they move on for Kyrie Irvin,

who he doesn't play in the whole season because the Nets have drawn a line. They've drawn a line. Get axed or you're axed, Kyrie. I have no problem with this. I have no problem with this because. for me personally, I think everyone, I think we do a podcast that is essentially about personal decisions. John Gruden made some personal decisions. Got to live with the consequences of your personal decisions. Decisions you made became public. Now you got to deal with it. How you deal

with it is going to tell us as much about who you are as what happened before. You know, you know what I mean? John Grude has an opportunity. Reach out to Soup Kitchen. There's two guys right there. He should start a pot. What's the name of the podcast? John Gruden should start a podcast with soup kitchen. Do you know that would be wildly popular? Of course it would be. Wildly popular.

You know what? Once this happens, I want a cut of this. John Gruden, reach out to Chris Harrison. Name it. What would be the name of? I got it. Mane's soup. That's the name of the podcast.

I was thinking something more like Mel Martyrs or something like that. Melmater's sleep. Here you go. Maneh soup. You got Chucky, you got John Grun who's straight up mayonnaise. That's the Hellman's best right there. And then you got soup kitchen. Manei soup is the name of that podcast.

Yeah, do that podcast. The number one, you're going straight to number one. You got all Ben Shapiro's audience. Anyway, so Kari has made his decision. And in the world that we live in, that's the same. has ramifications, consequences. It's not even a consequence. Really, this isn't even a consequence.

This is just a stipulation. You can't play unless you're vaccinated. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. If Kyrie wants to make the decision that he doesn't want to get vaccinated and he personally, and he has his personal reasons, we don't necessarily agree with those, but that's the decision he has made for himself. Well, guess what?

Then the team gets to do the same thing. It's not a one-sided thing. I just hope that this doesn't, Kyrie doesn't claim he is some sort of victim. I hope he doesn't claim he is some sort of martyr in all of this. It's not one-sided. You made your decision. They get to make their decisions. Decisions and actions have consequences.

And guess what? This one is yours. And I'm more so proud, too, of the Brooklyn Nets saying, this is the stance we're taking. This is what they're going to do. People ask them how to James Hardin and Kevin Durant feel about this decision where they involved in it. They said they spoke to the whole team, but at the end of the day, it was a decision that they made in the higher ups, you know, the front office. I respect that and I appreciate them taking this stance. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Will they trade Kyrie? They

didn't speak on that. You know, will Kyrie demand one? Will he just sit out and that's, and it is what it is? I don't know. Will he get vaccinated? It'd be interesting to watch and see, but for it. This isn't even so much a consequence as it is an outcome. You make a decision. And then there's an outcome, right? Just like, no one's punishing you. This is just what happens based upon the decision that you made. But some people look at it. That's why I say you're not a victim.

This isn't, doesn't make you a martyr. Some people would say this is a punishment. Some people do look at this one side. The anti-vaxxers would say he's being punished because, you know, the political environment and the culture we're living in is forcing this vaccine upon you. And yeah, some people would say it's punishment. They would say that it's punishment. But I say that they're wrong.

for example is the Mr. Olympia competition punishing me because I like to eat cupcakes. I cannot be Mr. Olympia. I can't do it.

The requirement, the acquire, look, look man, I got a nice frame. I got good shoulders. If I put in the work, I think I could get there. But I'm not. The thing is this. There are outcomes. Sometimes they're consequences. Sometimes people say you did something wrong and so we have to do this to you.

Nobody's doing anything like that to Kyrie Irvin. Nobody is doing anything to Kyrie Irvin. They're not retaliating against Kyrie Irvin. There is a standard for participation. The standard for participation in this particular case is vaccination. We understand everywhere that there are standards for participation in all different types of things. Now, a lot of times I will admit that those standards don't have very much to do with making a specific choice about putting something into your body. But you know what? Sometimes they might. Sometimes they might. You know what I mean? So no one's taking anything. You can look at it if you choose to martyr yourself like the guys over on mayonnaise soup. You can look at it that way, but it's an incorrect way to look at it. You can look at it.

There is a standard for participation in the Barclays Center. And that standard is you have to be vaccinated. No one's telling you that they're hurting you because you're not going to do this. What they're saying is you can't come to this situation. Karee is dealing with it. Last thing I'll say before we leave is the homophobes, like I said, expose themselves yesterday. Mm-hmm. Superman is John Kent.

John Kent is the son, Clark Kent. Okay. And Lois slang? And Lois Lane, yes. Okay. But he has Kryptonian DNA, which means he can do all kinds of crazy shit. He's Superman. Do they have the same uniform?

Kind of. Okay. It's not really a uniform, by the way. Oh. It's very disrespectful. It's skin? It's not, I wouldn't call it a uniform. What do we call it?

Well, number one, costume works. What's wrong with uniform? Because. I think costume sounds worse. A uniform denotes that there are other people who are, dress. You know what? That's actually, to be honest with you, maybe it is a uniform. I'll tell you why. Do you know why Superman wears those clothes?

Those are his clothes. His people on Krypton, that's how they dress with the big thing. So maybe it is a uniform. Maybe you're right. Um, he's got a boyfriend. They showed a picture of Superman kissing a man. And right away, people where I can't believe they're subjecting our children to this adult stuff. Why should kids have to learn?

learn about gay this early in their life, gay, G-A-Y. What do you think about this? What do you think about this discourse, Rachel? I mean, first of all, I'm learning these characters in real time. So, you know, this is great. I'm stepping into the DC. That's what it is, right? This is not Marvel.

Okay. Go ahead, Rach, get your nerd on. I'm stepping into DC comics and I'm learning. So I appreciate the fact that this is helping me learn about some of this stuff that you nerd out over with the, with the midnight. boys every week. Pugh, pew, pew. Shout out to Ring averse.

Ringerverse. But no, I think it's so funny to me when the homophobes get upset about this kind of stuff because they're talking about sexualizing the son, but then are Clark Kent and Lois Lane, not in a relationship? They're so dumb. Do we not see them kiss? Do we not see them fall in love? Do we not?

Like, why is sexualization only particular to the LGBT plus community? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Why is an adult? Okay. So, so let's just go ahead and say it. Lois Lane and Clark Kent have a son.

You know what that means? They fucked. Okay. Let me just break this down to you guys. All the parents that are talking about adults of, I want you guys to understand something. Peter Parker has had two girlfriends. One was in high school. Maybe that was innocent.

But the other one, they lived together. They live together. Mary Jane Watson, guess what? Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson, they fuck. Batman has had all different types of girlfriend. Talia, uh, Talia's out school has been his girlfriend. Selena Kyle Catwoman has been his girlfriend. in the original Batman movie

Rachel He was dating Rachel has been his girlfriend In the original Batman movie He was dating Vicky Vail Woke up together in bed She saw him doing exercises You know what that means

Batman and Vicky Vail Fucked Okay All of these characters Iron Man Pepper Potts they fuck Thor Jane Foster

They fuck All of these characters Are shown in romantic relationships. Gene Gray and Cyclops share a room in the ex mansion.

They fuck and she might have also fucked Wolverine. She definitely did. Definitely did, right? All of these characters are fucking. Your kids are watching relationships. Relationships that help them to normalize romance.

They see and they go, oh, this is what you do for the person that you love. Oh, this is how you treat the person that you love. This goes against it. You learn a lot of these rules for comic books. Let's be real. You don't care about your kids learning those rules. You don't want your kids to know that not everybody lives by that exact look of relationship.

The rules are the same. Meaning there's love. There is tenderness. There is betrayal. There is longing. There is lust. It's just the person on the other side of it is of the same sex. You don't want that normalized.

What you want normalize. What you continue to want normalize is suicide, runaways, violence against the LGBT community, and basically the muting of an entire group of people. And you want that so you don't have to talk to your fucking kids about it because you're selfish. Superman has a boyfriend. Get the fuck over it. I had all kinds of other thoughts. And it's the same thoughts that I had when Superman and Lois Lane started fucking. Like, how gentle do you have to be?

Like, how can Superman control the actual shot? Because that could go through her back. You know, like the actual shot, like, think about that. Like, can Superman control that? Can he control, like, the every cell of his body? Because that could hurt her. I've always thought about that. That's been my thing.

Maybe it's, like, turned off with romance, you know? Like maybe you're maybe you're like your guard is down the powers down you know with what if he gets too into it what if he gets too into it? Well he's got to get into it he's got to get into it. He's got to get into it and you think like Superman's got all of these different powers and some of those powers you will want to use you know what I mean? You know some of those but anyway I got to start paying attention to Superman. Look I'm telling you there's two things that you know about Superman. one is that he can fly and the other is that he loves Lois Lane those are the two most important things about the character like this is not like all your children watched these relationships

they watched them it's a part of it Superman's girlfriend so you just don't want you don't want that's it's it's stupid people hate change they hate change they hate change they have these rules, the set of what is quote, unquote, normal to them, and they don't want to take away from it. But it's also just crazy, too, because it's like sex is everywhere. You turn on the TV, you turn on your computer, you look on your phone, you look at the magazine and the aisle at the grocery store. It's everywhere. This whole world is sexualized, but you want to blame it on a comic book.

It's ridiculous. And you know what? Usually their arguments are. Yeah, they are. I'll say one last thing. It's like, you think that John Gruden, deleted his emails about Superman yesterday, or you think they're still floating around?

I wish I could read John Grude's emails about Superman yesterday. He probably had so much shit to say. They're probably in his text. They're probably in his text. This episode is brought to by Nass Energy, introducing new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. For those that want to be fueled up and fired up with a hundred-bound-hour tropical tasting power,

ignite your taste, start your engine, shift your flavor to high gear with new Nass Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice.

Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Low burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. We're going to pause right now to give you guys a really incredible story of somebody who you thought you'd never hear from. No, no! John Brun, who is now the coach of Booker T. Washington High School in South Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

John sitting there with a black kid on his lap. he's rocking them back and forth you know he's doing the whole thing they're singing you know John's at the John's at the Pride parade he's calling place

he's like look if you move this float over here you can get more penetration up into the A gap all right what I need you guys to do is make sure don't stack the box on this side we want to make sure we outflank the LAPD to this side

we're going to do an overload here John Gruden his mind could be used use your powers for good John Gruden because you got a long way back you got a long way back you better coach Bookerty Washington High School Raich you got anything else for yeah no not about John Gruden but the opposite

end of the spectrum somebody who's not getting canceled Dave Chappelle doesn't matter what this nigga does Jay Chappelle basically did a stand up where he read John Gruden's emails only in the form of jokes but Netflix is standing behind

Dave Chappelle We only really need to get into the closer. We've already covered it. What are your thoughts on Netflix deciding that they are going to stand by Dave Chappelle? And I don't just stand by Dave Chappelle. They actually had some disciplinary action for some Netflix employees who took action against Dave Chappelle. At first it was reported that it was over the tweets, but it seems that they stormed a meeting or something. And that got them suspended from Netflix.

Yeah, that's what they're saying. Netflix is not saying at all that they were fired, not fired, that they were suspended because they had tweets that were speaking out against the Netflix, about Netflix and about this special. It was because they held a meeting, I guess, that was against some rules.

I didn't really understand the whole setup. So that's what they're using. Who knows? Who knows? Honestly, I don't think they should remove the special. I just don't, we talked it out, we hashed it. I do think obviously there were, were definitely some problematic parts in Dave Chappelle's special. I think calling them out is the right thing to do.

I think acknowledging it. I think him not passing, like just letting it be excused because it's Dave Chappelle and this is just what Dave Chappelle does. I think all of that is wrong. I think maybe Netflix should come out and say something along those lines. But as far as completely removing it, as far as canceling him, I'm not ready to go there. Hmm.

So you know what I've noticed or what I realized when I was thinking about this? It's actually not my place to decide whether or not Netflix should remove the special. I think that if the LGBT plus community wants the special removed, then I support them. if you're asking me what I think the answer is going to be I don't like the answer is going to be without any power of conviction I'll be honest with you the special is disgusting to me

but I watched it then I didn't really think about it again until I crawled the headlines right and that might mean that even though I try to be an act of an involved ally that there is a personalization of these issues that you just can't get to unless they directly affect you. And I'm willing to be there. I've talked about that before in my view of white people.

I'm willing to accept that, to cop to that. But there seems to be it. I don't have a good gauge. And I'm hoping to get David Johns on the podcast, to talk a little bit about this a little bit better. but I don't really have a good gauge of what the consensus feeling and there's probably no way to get a consensus feeling on the group. There's no way to get a consensus feeling on us on if they want it pulled down. I know specific groups do.

But if those groups want it gone, I have no problem with that. Like I would, if those groups want that special down, if there's an outcry coming from the gay or trans community that says this, material is normalizing or giving a lot of breath and life to ideas that hurt us and put us in jeopardy and make it easier to kill us. I don't even fuck take it down. I'm not going to tell them my opinion doesn't really even matter. And that I'm like I'm going to support them and what it is that they decide. If you ask me specifically whether or not it should be taken down, if I had to if I had to if I had to I'd say yeah you say take it down I mean yeah I mean if we're talking if we're talking about something that could hurt people once again if we're talking about distasteful jokes that offend people that's one thing but if there are people that are saying hey I feel like my life is on the line and this makes it harder for me to live I don't see how I can really argue with that person.

It's just hard. And I don't know if I've, and maybe I need to do personally do some more research about the harmful and the violent part of it. I agree with what you're saying in the sense that, you know, I gave an opinion based on my own personal opinion. And maybe that is wrong for me to do. But if people in the community are saying take it down, I would never be like, no, you got to keep it up. I'm not going to say that. But what I would be shocked and what I would be disappointed for is if Netflix gives him the space to do a whole other one in the future with that exact same content.

Well, why, though? What would stop them? Well, now it's done. He's been doing this for a little while now. Why now? But we all, we talked about this on the last podcast. You agreed that this one was worse than what you've seen before. And you said you laughed in this one.

were like, I watched it and I laughed. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong. I laughed. I enjoyed it. Oh, without doubt, I think the special is funny. Yeah, for sure. What I'm saying is, is, but if it's funny, and with the content that he, if you think what was said was funny and the content is harmful, are we not part of the problem as well? Well, I mean, listen, that's a completely different question. You know, I listen to a song growing up that I still like that says, biches ain't shit but hos and tricks. you know what I mean and the reality is sometimes things that are harmful are definitely entertaining the question becomes how do you react to those things when they're harmful to you so so like what I'm saying is certainly there can be things that are harmful that I find to be entertaining

for sure probably a lot of stuff but would I being a black man being from Louisiana give you a perfect example of a joke that always bothered me um tosh 2.0 or whatever it was it is daniel toh yeah tosh jopc was doing it toss was showing this clip of a black dude you know how black guys or really guys period women two people can get on a pole and then like be completely horizontal on the pole like grab the pole and he was showing a clip you know he's talking over it And the clip is of a guy doing that. And he then says either he's working out or waiting for the next hurricane to hit New Orleans. So I'm watching this and it's maybe like 2007.

I just feel this punch in my gut. Like, God damn, man. My fucking people died in that shit. That's what we at. Like that's funny. And that's how it felt to me. like for me I thought about that for a long time like you know I hope I run into him in LA like on some shit like that you know what I mean on some shit like that and no one can take

that away from me like my roommates and everybody they laughed because even though I'm sure they weren't in favor or they weren't excited about the death of people in New Orleans that joke is funny to them it's some off color crazy dark humor that's what he does that's his brand laughed. So for me, there is something that's like a little bit of a, there's a dividing line. There's a dividing line. The question is when I didn't turn around and talk to my roommates and go, yo, there's a million reasons why I don't think that's funny. There's like a million reasons why I don't think that's funny. How do they react to me? And since I am them now, the question is, how do I react to people who I share my community with who are saying, dash ain't funny?

And while you may not feel it's particularly harmful, we feel like it's harmful and it makes our lives, our existence, the one existence that we get on earth, it makes it harder. And is the comedy worth it? I would be curious to know because Netflix did come out with the statement and said that they feel like sometimes, you know, think jokes can go too far and they can be harmful and they can be violent and they feel like this special doesn't cross that line. I would be curious to know, and maybe they should have put this in their statement if they did do it, is if they, they consulted with people of the community to make that decision? Or was it a room full of people like you and me who aren't impacted by it, who made that decision for them? I would be curious to decide, but I, since they've made this decision,

they've made the statement, they're standing by it, they're not going to take it off Netflix. I think there's a, I don't want to say a difference, but I'd be curious to see if in the future, If Dave Chappelle does want to come back and make another special, would they give him the space to do that, knowing the uproar that it caused in the community the last time? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question.

It's a good question. It's a good question of the week. Easy one. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Fuck Mary Kill. Okay. I'm going to marry Instagram. Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna fuck Twitter. Actually, let me take that back. I'm gonna fuck Facebook. I'm gonna kill Twitter. I am marrying Instagram. I am fucking Twitter and I am killing Facebook. And it's hard because my Facebook, I have my Oculus hooked up to Facebook and I can't pay my Oculus. So it's whatever.

Emergency podcast is over. It was brief. It was light, but it was very, very hard hitting. Look, a lot of shit coming. You guys, we're coming back this week. Have to talk to more people about this Dave Chappelle thing because there's a lot of shit that's going on. And we don't want to feel like we're over-talking voices. Okay?

Take the in-cats off, but do not stop learning. In an emergency situation, we have our hard hats on. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lindsay. We out.