Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Justice for Julius Jones and the Howard University Protests

Episode Date: October 22, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss the #BlackburnTakeover at Howard University, while producer Donnie Beacham details his experience with dorm life at the “Mecca” (23:33), then we welcome family and supporters of Julius Jones, a death row inmate they say was wrongfully convicted of murder in 1999 (37:08). Plus, it’s Thought Warrior mailbag time (1:19:35)! Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Antoinette Jones, Keith Jossell, Tiffany Crutcher Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. Wow, here we go. You look to the side. You don't even know. You don't even know who you are anymore.

I don't know who I am. I literally was up for 24 hours straight yesterday. I'm so sorry. It's Rachel and Lizzie. I'm here, guys. I'm back. I'm ready to go. We started something on the internet between the Texas fans and the LSU fans on the Twitters.

Yeah. There is nothing that started. There's nothing started because people don't can't even jump on your side. That's not true. Oh, is it? I was just assuming I don't see what people said. No, no, that's not true at all. It's like they start real debates and then they start cranking out the numbers and going into it.

So it's like it's interesting. It's fun smack talk. It's fun smack talk. It made me go back and even appreciate 2019 LSU and 2005, Texas even more. 2005 Texas even more made me appreciate them even more. I think the answer is clear. It is clear. I think it is too.

Right. I think the answer is clear. Very much so. Are we going to do an extended version of this on time? We could. But here's the thing now. We could, but here's the thing. If we go too deep into the numbers,

it's not going to be fair to Texas. No, no, but I'll tell you, Why? I'm not being serious, though. Okay. It's a different, it's a different offensive time. It's like, so Joe Burrow threw for 60 touchdowns. It's like a different offensive time. It's not the same offensive time.

What we need to come up with is a metric that's fair to compare to errors, right? I think there are several things that you could throw in there. Okay. Like what? Like you could do stats. You could do the number of people that went to the league. Well, that LSU team set a, record for players drafted.

Oh, how many was it? 14. Drafted into the league. Now, you guys have more, like, as far as players off the league, like into the league, a lot of the other people that you're talking about, those are, but there was a record of players drafted off one team. Really? We didn't have more than 14? I could just want us more than 14 people. Maybe not drafted.

Maybe you had, maybe you had guys from that team that made it to the NFL that made to the NFL. That made to the NFL. But there was a record number of players. The LSU team, just let just so we know, the LSU team. I got to look this up. Just so we know, that LSU team won. The Heisman, the broils, the Bolitnikov, like they swept the awards.

So we need a metric to figure out which run was better. Because the errors are different. We really went into this. The errors were different. We need a metric. We'll figure it out. We'll figure out the metric. And then we'll come back to that.

I went on our thought warriors. And some people were saying they don't like when we cover sports this much. What do you think? I think they need to understand. that we cover a variety of topics, just like some people don't like when we talk Bachelor Talk. But sports are what interests us.

There are a sector of thought warrior listeners that like to hear about sports. And it's us. You know what I'm saying? It's not like we're just talking about two random teams. These are teams that represent us. Right. I went on DJ Academist podcast this past week.

Oh, whoa. What y'all talk about? Meg style. No, we ain't talk about it. We didn't get around to talking about Meg. We talked about all kinds of things. We talked about, because this is what DJ academics says. I want to get your opinion on this.

You guys, you go check it out. DJ academics, off the record podcast. Two and a half hours of me and act. Shout at each other. Shout out to academics. Two and a half hours. Wow. So long podcasts.

We're the only podcasters in the game that give you a concise hour 30. A lot of these people, they go far, long and long and long. You mean that are in our, like, the. discuss the culture and stuff go longer or just period. Well, we're not a hip hop podcast. So the hip hop podcast tend to go a little bit longer. I think I don't know if people like the shorter higher learnings or if they like the longer higher learnings. We should do a, we should ask.

Because I've seen, put it on Reddit. I've seen people say they like both. I know you like the shorter ones. Rachel got so much to do. Rachel will be like Jesus Christ. I have never verbally said I like the shorter ones. I've never. said that guys.

We'll ask Rachel, we'll ask Rachel what she has to do. And Rachel will be like, okay, I have to do extra. I have to do 60 minutes. I have to do Oprah's show. I have to do unconfut conversations with a bachelorette. And then after I do all of that, my shift at Spago

starts at like 2 a.m. in the morning. Rachel has every single job in the world. So she'd be like, hey, we begin, hey, hurry this shit up. Let's get out of here. Let's go. I do not do that. I do that. I take my time with the thought wars. You set out of comfortable conversations that made me think.

Emmanuel Acho has been hosting this week of extra. Interesting. Interesting. Emmanuel Acho continues to say things or speak for yourself. I haven't watched. What are he said? Let's talk about it. Well, we'll get to it.

Because I want to talk about what women academics talked about first. But like he continues to say. things on the shoulder. It's like, damn, macho. I don't know. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain,

stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis.

who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. visit weathertech.com today. So this is, I want to get your opinion on this. Were you popping in high school? Were you popping in high school? Like First Baptist Academy popping?

Or was that popping like outside? You went to an all-girl school. No, not an all-girl school. It's not an all-girl school. I went to a predominantly white school. P-W-I. So you, so you went to predominantly white school. But were you popping there?

I was popping at First Baptist. Wasn't hard to pop. It's going to be honest with you. Wasn't hard to pop. I didn't peak until, I don't know, I want to say I peaked, but like I really came into my own college. Okay. Because I was shocked at the attention I was getting as a freshman in college.

Right. Okay. Makes sense. Understandable. So me. Are you guys talking about people who peek in high school? No, no, no, no, no. I don't have any.

I don't think that that whole thing is a. none of that stuff matters to me. So me and Ack were having a conversation. And Ack is talking about people who peaked in high school because Ack is in his early 30s, now late 20s, whatever it is. And he has his, what we should be honest with is a little media empire if we're being honest. He has a huge, he's huge on Twitch. He's huge on YouTube. He's huge with many different Instagram pages, Twitter, all of this stuff.

He's got a huge, huge platform. Yes, he has a following. And people hate watching him too. Of course. And so what he was saying was that if you go and you watch the podcast or listen to it, you'll see. What he was saying was that he basically is trying to show kids in high school and in college that there you can play the long game and you don't have to peek in high school. You don't have to peek in college by essentially shitting on the people that he went to high school and college with. He says that we are too obsessed with the cool kids.

We are too obsessed with like the cool people and we don't pay enough attention to the nerds. The whole conversation was me trying to get my young brother act to let go of the hurt that he might have endured in high school and college. So my question to you is has there ever been any part of you? that wanted to stun on the people from your hometown, wanted to stun on the people from your college or the people from your high school. Do you think that that is a useful way to motivate yourself to achieve things in life?

Is it useful? Maybe not necessarily, like, if you're still holding on to that in your 30s, I can't say that that's necessarily helpful to you. But it can be useful in the sense is your motivation to want to give you that drive to do better. And I understand that.

I have never felt that. I got to feel that in high school. I was very popular in college. So I didn't feel like I needed to do that with whatever it is that he went through. But I think in the long run, that is unhealthy because you're still being motivated by people from 20 years ago who probably don't even care what it is that you're doing. I think that you should be motivated by self rather than getting over on the people who shitted on you when you were younger or made you feel less than.

No? No, the silence is because I agree. And let me tell you what happens. And I told him this on the podcast, this is how megalomaniacs are born because it is. It is. We talked about, we went back and forth, man, you know, I can hold his own in any conversation. But this is how megalomaniacs are born. You get to a point to where you're like, oh, shit, I'm about to stun on everybody,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, but now you're in a position. because the guys in high school and college or the girls there, they kind of are flashing the pans and they don't really, they're harmless, right? They don't have any real world power. But by the time you get to the point to where you actually have whatever it is that you have, now you can really affect shit.

This is what happens with certain people, certain media heads, certain CEOs, certain people that get to these points now, even like I said on the podcast, cops, cops that got bullied in high school, now they want to fuck with people because they have power. So we have to heal our hurt. The entire podcast was me trying to convince that he needs to heal and him saying, no. I'm going to listen to this right after this podcast. I want to hear it.

No, I just think in the long run, it's not good. Like you got to let it go. Use it as motivation in the beginning. But then you got to let it go. You got to heal. Is he okay? I think he's okay Is he okay

I think he's okay I think he's okay I think he's a young guy with a lot and there's lessons to learn and he's gonna learn him but at the core of AC people don't know there is a good brother

Act is a good brother act is a good brother but you know me Van Lathan I choose to see the good but what is he doing where he feels like he's still I guess like

trying to get back at those people like doesn't it just speak for him itself with the success that he's had Of course. Yeah. Like, so is he verbally? Yeah.

Like, I would just think, you know, if he continues to go in the way that he's going, he speaks for itself. It's true. He is what he is. But there is some truth, though, about giving too much credit to people in high school and college and, you know, because. Oh, it definitely true. Usually those people that are popular at high school are because they look a certain way

or because they play a certain sport. You know what I mean? It's all very surface level and superficial. Or they're funny. Usually class clowns are. There's always one girl or guy in high school that's popular just because they're hell of nice, though. There's always that one person. They hang with it.

They hang with the others, though. He's just so sweet. He's just a nice guy. I was such a rabble rouser. I didn't ask you the question. What were you in high school? I was pretty good. I was all right.

You're in the popular crew, player proof crew? That was college. But see, here's the thing, though. The player proof crew, that was the thing. The player proof crew didn't go to McKinley. So for me at McKinley, I was just a floater, just playing ball and being a floater. The playerproof crew didn't really go to McKinley. But so me, I was just there.

But I was doing my thing, you know what I'm saying? I got this. He had a little handsome. So it was happening. All right. Speaking of people that need healing, Dowell Trump, always number one on that power ranking. His response to Colin Powell's death.

Now, we're going to talk a little bit about Colin Powell after we respond to this. but Colin Powell's four-star general, former secretary of state, he passed away. Tributes came from everywhere. Both sides of the political aisle, the left and the right. That's what Donald Trump had to say after this man died of COVID. Wonderful to see Colin Powell, who made big mistakes on Iraq and famously so-called weapons of mass destruction, be treated in death so beautifully by the fake news media. Hope that happens to me someday.

He was a classic rhino, Republican in name only. that's what rhino means if even that always being the first to attack other republicans who does that more than donald trump anyway he made plenty of mistakes but anyway may he rest in peace we're not going to spend too much time on Donald trump's pettiness right we can't because this is not sure surprising or shocking or out of character no out of character anything like that Just being put on notice that this is the guy that you're following. This is the guy that you're imitating who can't even show respect in death. Right.

That's what he had to say about Colin Powell's death, something that was being reported while we were on the podcast last Monday. I want to say something. While we were doing that, we talked about Colin Powell and our memories of Colin Powell were pretty. Respectful. We were pretty respectful. they were very respectful. Right after the podcast was over, I was thinking about some things that I discussed about Colin Powell when I was in college.

Is it fair to talk to talk about, in your opinion, the complicated legacy of Colin Powell, Rachel, do you think so? I'm so glad you asked that question because I thought about that when I obviously saw that mess that Trump put out there. And it made me think about Kobe. And I remember people being very upset that in addition to talking about the greatness of Kobe, people also brought up what happened in Colorado. It was Colorado, right?

Yeah. Eagle Colorado. What happened in Colorado? And people were very upset. Wasn't it with Gail? Didn't Gail mention something? Yeah. Well, they were upset with Gail, not necessarily because she mentioned something,

but because of how it was. mentioned. But it was, but, but, but there are people who, they were upset because she, she talked about another side of Kobe. They were. Right. At the same time, let me just clarify real quick on that, that Gail was talking to, I believe, Lisa Leslie. Yes, she asked Lisa Leslie the question. She was asking Lisa Leslie a question and Lisa Leslie answered the question. And then Gail asked another question. And Lisa Leslie's like, no. So at the point that Gail is trying, it seems like Gail was trying to elicit. the response, a specific response

from Lisa Leslie. Right. A lot of people look at that as like, okay, you asked her, she said what she said, why are you fishing for even more? But there was also a lot of talk just by like, why do we have to bring that up about Kobe? Like, a lot of people were upset about that. And so I think that

I am on the side of, we know that story with him. This person died in a tragic way. It's a huge loss or just died. Death is a tragedy, period. And I don't think that you should say, hey, this happened, but also let me remind you of what this person did, especially if that person has been remorseful, has publicly said that they regret what they did, has been, it's been adjudicated, has been found out, whatever, whatever it may be. I just feel like in death, you should be respectful, unless the person was like, you know, just a monster out there.

So I disagree with the fact that people are bringing up certain things about a Colin Powell in death or Kobe Bryant in death. I just think that you should be respectful to the family, respect the person and the fact that they died and, you know, death is a tragedy in itself. And then we should move on because I think we know both sides of it. So I don't get the point in rehashing the old shit. Well, I'm normally on your side. we've talked about this before. No, I know. No, I'm normally on your side about this.

I'm normally like, hey, somebody died, give it a little bit of time. Let me tell you why this particular occasion might be a little different. Kobe Bryant had, Kobe Bryant was accused of something that was absolutely abhorrent, right? Absolutely abhorrent.

There was a criminal inquiry into it. and it went where it went, he settled. All of that stuff is out there for anyone that wants to go read it and make their decision about what they think about Kobe Bryant, right? In the case of Colin Powell, he's someone, or Colin Powell, someone who dedicated his life to public service and to being involved in the American military. So when he's remembered, he's not really remembered as a human being. he's remembered as a servant and a soldier.

And there's really no way to remember him as a servant and a soldier without discussing the Mila massacre and without discussing Iraq. So you can't have a completely sunny recollection of who Colin Powell was as a soldier or as a statesman. without talking about these prodigious failures that some people look at, without talking about a history that, for lack of a better term, may implicate him as a war criminal. So it's no way you can talk about being the first black joint chiefs of staff and then not have a discussion about the fact that he might have been the part of the cover-up. Well, not, might have been.

He was, yeah, well, we'll say might have been. Might have been the part of a cover-up of one of the one of the, were slaughters in the history of war warfare. Like, it may lie. Like, there's no way to, you can't, I don't feel like how you can talk about one and not talk about the other one. But why? We're remembering this person.

Okay. Why in death do we, it'd be different if he was still in that place. And it's like, or it just, maybe it just happened. And I'm not taking away from what, what he did. And he's even spoken out about it. My thing is, why is it necessary in death to bring that up? And I totally disagree about the Kobe Bryant thing because Kobe was looked at as a mentor and a role model. And so if that's your argument that we look at Colin Powell as a public servant and a soldier, so how do you not?

Then if you're looking at Kobe Bryant as a mentor and a role model, how do you not talk about things that he did that didn't align with that? If that's your argument. Well, my argument is not what we looked at Colin Powell as. it's like what he was. Like Colin, so when Kobe Bryant died, first of all, I have no, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to discuss what happened in Colorado when Kobe Bryant died. I don't remember we talked about this. I didn't, I spoke to George after Nip died and Nip had said some anti-gay things and

George wanted to talk about it. George Johnson guy, fabulous guy, followed him on Twitter. George made his point very well. I don't begrudge anyone who wants to do that. My point is that obviously anything that happened in Kobe Bryant, basketball career, like when he passes away, or anytime you discuss his basketball career is fair game. Mili and Iraq are part of Colin Powell's career.

Like they're part of what made Colin Powell, colon pal. It's not like it's Kobe Bryant was looked at as a mentor and he was to a lot of people. He was looked at as a coach and he was to a lot of people. But first, we know Kobe Bryant because he's a basketball player. So whatever you're going to discuss about Kobe Ryan's basketball career, you're going to talk about the times he went up. You're going to talk about the time he got shack hit down in the villa. You're going to talk about all of that stuff. The Milat Massacre is actually something that's been under discussed in the American consciousness because U.S. soldiers.

And what I'm talking about is in the late 60s, some soldiers from a company went to a village in Vietnam. And these soldiers have been being battered by landmines and snipers and, And they started off as a company of soldiers who actually, a lot of the Vietnamese, looked forward to seeing when they came because they brought medical supplies, they bought candy for kids and stuff. But after they had been battered by the war a little bit, they came upon a village that they thought was housing Viet Cong operatives or soldiers, whatever. There were none there.

They were about 150 miles away. They massacred all of the people there. There was one account of a guy holding a woman at gunpoint, making her give him oral sex. and cutting her all up her hair off and shooting her in the head. There was a reporter there from Stars and Stripe magazine who saw the whole thing. Now, Colin Powell wasn't there, but after he was working in the capacity

to have received whistleblower tips about what went on in Eli, and he told the company line. He did not bring these things to light. He did not, and he defended this position and this stance throughout his entire life. That plus selling the Iraq war to the world I think that's fair to discuss when you're talking about the legacy of Colin Pyle,

especially as a general and as someone who's going to be remembered as an American hero. I would hate for George W. Bush to pass away and people not talk about the Iraq War and Hurricane Katrina. I think that's a truthful remembrance of who the person was. I think that makes sense. I just personally am not a fan of, I can't. I guess maybe I understand the mention of it. You know, like, you're right. How could you not talk about former president George W. Bush and not talk about 9-11 in the Iraq

war. And it was it was so much a part of his legacy as a president. I get that. I guess more, I'm more against the rehashing and the debate of what that person did wrong in their life in death. Maybe that's where I'm coming from. Gotcha. Got you.

Gotcha. Well, in any case, you can do that in a respectful and informative way. Yes, you can. And that's certainly not what Donald Trump did. Let's take a break. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques

who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya. including important safety information.

There's actually something going on at Howard University. One of the finest institutes of higher learning in the country. Howard University is known to many as the Black Harvard. Right? Cream of the crop. Cream of the crop of HBCUs. Cream of the crop, cream. But there students have staged a sit-in at the Armour-J Blackburn University Center.

against the Howard University administration. Their accusations are absolutely wild. They claim to be living in absolutely putrid conditions. Putechard. There are claims of roaches and rat infestation. There are claims of fucked up water. They say that the standard of living at Howard overall is incredibly subpar. and they are sick of it.

They've made their gripes. They've made their gripes to the administration. They feel like their administration will be slowly on them. And so they are now staging a sit-in because they don't think that there's any urgency. By the way, this is not to discrambling, but I'm going to put this in here. I went to Southern. This is not to discrambling. What people don't know is the first school that I was ever actually going to go to wasn't Louisiana Tech.

It was grambling. Really? Yeah. It was Grambling University. My dad hated this. Like I was going to Gremlin really just to kind of fuck with my dad. I was going to Gambling. They put me in a place called Drew Hall at Gremlin because I kind of got my shit together

late. It was at Drew Hall. We got there. We saw Drew Hall and my parents said there's no fucking way you can do this. There's no way. You were enrolled. We were driving up to move in. Oh, my God.

We were driving up to move in. I was there. My dad said, no. I came back home and my dad said, you want to get away from home? You don't want to go to the Southern? That's fine. You don't want to go to LSU?

That's fine. Go to Louisiana Tech, but you can't go to Gremlin. Over the actual, over Drew Hall. Anybody that knows about Gremlin will know Drew Hall. We actually have somebody here that went to Howard, Donnie Beecham. There's a list of demands that the students have, and we're going to read those lists of demands.

But before we get to the list of demands that the students have, from the Howard administration. Donnie, you had something to say about this because you went to Howard for a little while and you were pretty on fire about it. Tell us what you know. Yeah, you're blowing my mind right now by mentioning Drew Hall at Grandma's State

because I went to Howard for my freshman year in 2006 and I stayed in the freshman male dormant Howard, which was called Jew Hall. So first of all, it's like we got to do better for Charles Jew's legacy. Like it's messed up that they're naming these right-doll. after a black grate. But yeah, it was rough.

Like I said, I spent two semesters there, and it was hard. For most of the year, I feel like we had like two working urinals on my floor. The rest of the urinals had like garbage bags over them. There was like a big hole in our bathroom wall that, like, you could fit through. That was there the entire year. I didn't see any rats then, but we most definitely had mice. like smaller rodents. Mice!

Yeah. Mice. What about roaches? No roaches and drew, at least when I was there. But we had mice. But I mean, it was a struggle. The conditions were hard. I felt like everybody in Drew Hall kind of bonded over the struggle.

I ended up transferring in the middle of my freshman year. And the thing that got me to transfer was this sewage leak that happened in our laundry room. I went down there to do laundry and there was like caution tape over the door and when I peaked in there was like this chunky brown liquid all over the floor. I go back to my room. I think I'll do my laundry tomorrow.

Tomorrow comes and the caution tape and the shit is still there and the smell was really bad. So I take this like old digital camera. It's old now. It was like newish thing. I take some pictures of the sewage. I take some pictures of the sewage. I go back up to that, my floor is bathroom.

I take pictures of the urinals and the hole. And I had a friend who wrote for the Hilltop. He wrote an article. He used my Facebook pictures. And I was, after that article went live, me and my roommate Kendall were locked out of our room because of the pictures that I put on Facebook. And on the outside of my phone,

What? Yeah, there was a lock on our on our door. We couldn't get into our room. And on the, there was like a paper. There was a posted on the on our door that said that I could get into my room once I had a meeting with the dean of residence life. So I have this meeting with being the dean. And he has like my Facebook posts printed out with the comments. And he like, presents them to me and he's like, a young man, this right here, this, like, based off of the comments and the pictures, he was like, there was caution tape, you weren't supposed to go into this. This is a closed area. This right here is libel,

and libel is grounds for exposure. So you got to take these posts off of Facebook or else we're going to, like, start the process of getting you expelled from our university. And at this point, Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was crazy.

So what happened after that? What? So I was already kind of homesick and the conditions were bad. And I'm seeing like my friends who go to University of Michigan not having these problems. And I was dating a girl at the time who went to Georgetown. And I was spending time on their campus and seeing what their campus or their dorm life is like compared to mine. And I was already feeling like transferring. So this was like that thing that pushed me over the edge.

And it was like, you know what? I'm going to go ahead. and then start that transfer process instead of fighting it out. So I left. And kudos to my bison who I met. I met so many dope people at Howard, my freshman year. I do want to say that. I met so many dope people.

I had some dope classes, have some dope professors. It was just that residence life that was a struggle. So shout out to the people who stayed there and fought through it and graduated. And they're proud Howard alumni. But I just, I couldn't do it. shout out to the people who washed their clothes and shit

just to be how I met some Howard alumni a couple of years ago they were some of the most brilliant kids I have ever met before my life I met some Howard kids that's crazy that's crazy think of what they had to struggle through what had been in what was the Dean's name let's say his name I don't remember his name I don't I remember the name that so during orientation

he had us call him by his line name he was a cute it was Dean's Jungle Love. No! Take that. Edit that card out. No, leave it. Believe it.

Believe it. Believe it. That was his name. That was the name. Like, Donnie, Donnie went there to try to get his real offense and all he did was, ah. No, that's the friend.

That's the brus. The brus. The brus. Donnie, not only, not only were you living in these terrible conditions. There was corruption on the part they're trying to cover it up.

Now, did you, did you? Because you were kind of a whistleblower. Did you? A snitch, a snitch. What was someone saying? Did you take down the photos when you left, Howard? So I took down the sewage photos, but I left up the urinal photos. So I looked up my Facebook just for confirmation because this is like 15, 14 years ago.

And the urinal photo is still like deep in my Facebook. So there's a picture of the urinal. with the hole in the wall above the urinals. But the, let's go ahead and show that. Yeah. I'd like to know if the hole's been fixed. Probably hasn't.

Neither has the hole in Donnie's heart. It's terrible. All right. So these are the, these are the demands. Thank you for sharing, Donnie. Thank you for sharing. Donnie, thank you so much.

Hashtag Blackburn Takeover. They've occupied there. These are the demands. Number one, an in-person town hall. with President Frederick and administration scheduled before the end of October. Number two, reinstate all affiliate trustee positions, students, faculty, and alumni on the Board of Trustees with voting power. Number three, the president and chairman of the board proposed a meeting with student

leadership outlining their housing plan to protect the incoming classes of Howard's immediate future. It seems as if there is an issue at Howard. And remember, the way we treat our brothers and sisters is important. Not just the way the white man treats us. All right. Thank you. If these were black kids living in dorms of under these conditions at PWIs,

we would all be screaming our fucking heads off, racism, systemic racism, all of that. These are black kids that are going through conditions like this at Howard University and their voices deserve to be heard at the exact same volume. We're going to be on top of this. Donnie, thank you for sharing with us right now. Have we heard from our vice president about her alma mater? No, we haven't heard. We haven't heard from a period.

Has she given a statement about what is happening in her alma mater? No. This is, yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully we do. Okay. We're going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk with the family of Julius Jones,

a man who right now is awaiting justice while the threat of execution in Oklahoma looms over his head. We are going to talk to the people that are fighting to save Julius Jones' life after we come back from this break. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah, they have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. and the metapant. That's my number one.

I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. Okay, there is a story of the utmost importance that is happening down in Oklahoma. We have alluded to this.

We have told you guys that we will be covering this. It is the story of a black man who is seeking justice, His name is Julius Jones. He is seeking justice for what he and a lot of people say is a wrongful conviction in 1999 of murder. He's currently on death row and the time is ticking. We wanted to bring this issue to the forefront here on higher learning. And to do so, we are joined by Antoinette Jones, who is Julius Jones's sister and by Keith Jossel, who

is the spiritual advisor and a pastor in the Oklahoma City area and someone who is working very fervently to try to bring justice to Julius Jones or get justice for Julius Jones, should I say. First of all, thank you both for joining us on higher learning and what must be a very, very trying time. Hey, glad to be here. Okay. So my first question is there's been a significant amount of coverage of this story. You've seen people talk about it everywhere.

I've seen it on Dr. Oz. I've seen James Corden talk about it. And most recently, of course, Kim Kardashian has brought it up. But to somebody that had never heard the name Julius Jones before, didn't know the ends and outs of the case as me and Rachel might. Layout what exactly happened back in 1999, why you feel like Julius is innocent and what has to be done? Just give us the whole big thing in one big ball of wax.

wants to go. I'm not sure who's comfortable with doing that, which one of you guys wants to just educate people on what's happening in Oklahoma City. 1999, an Edmond, Oklahoma businessman Paul Howell was gunned down in a carjacking that took place at his parents' home. That evening that that transpired, Julius was actually at home with his family. They were actually seeing the news about the murder as they were together. It was a very vivid and memorable evening for the Jones family because Julius just had his birthday two days earlier, gotten a fresh cut, and Antoinette, his baby sister right here at the age of 13 years old. I was a little bit rebellious and kind of got into his cookie

cake. Julius was upset and he was waiting for his mom to get home to be able to tell her about what his family had, what his sister and brother had done in regards to his cookie cake. So the details of that evening were his family. There was a trial. There were two witnesses, a co-defendant and another individual. What we found out later, not then in 1999, is that those two individuals were government informants. And Christopher Jordan, who was the primary witness against Julius, who has testified or has actually admitted many times that he was actually the murderer of Paul Howell and framed Julius.

He was the primary witness against Julius. He was given a 30-year sentence but promised fears for testifying. against Julius. What's interesting about this case is that when Christopher Jordan was first arrested brought in by the Edmund Police Department, the first three times he told them about the murder, he never mentioned Julius Jones. It was not until an Edmond police officer actually mentioned Julius and suggesting that Julius was involved. It was in that fourth round of interviews that Christopher Jordan said, yes, Julius is the one that did it. He went on and testified against, Julius, there was another individual that was a government witness that testified against Julius.

He had just been arrested. This was a three-strikes-your-out kind of situation for him. He was going to be going to prison for 20 years. He testified against Julius in his case went away. He never went to prison. By the time that it was time for the defender case, an individual who had been appointed to represent Julius basically just stood up and said the defendant. arrest. Yes, you heard me right. In a capital murder case, an attorney just got up and said the defense arrest. He did not call the family to the stand to be able to provide a credible alibi because not only them, but two other individuals were with them that evening. Not only did he not do that, he did not challenge the only eyewitness testimony of the murder. It was the sister of

Paul Howe, who said that the individual that murdered her brother had hair coming down out of the back, from the back of his cap that he was wearing. Julius, remember I told you, had gotten a fresh cut for his birthday. His hair was kind of like mine, and there's no hair to come out underneath his cap. But for Christopher Jordan, he had cornrows that were hanging out braids, that were hanging out the back of his cap. He also fit the physical description. of what she described and Julius did not. None of that was challenged in the case. And then basically said because the defense did not present a case,

then Julius must have been guilty. So fast forward, we have gone through multiple appellate hearings where they were considering information, but instead of considering the information on merit, they considered it on procedure. In other words, the information either was not presented, in a timely enough manner for them to consider, or they made the conclusion amongst themselves that, yeah, that's not right, but I don't know if that would have changed the decision of the jury,

so therefore we're not going to consider it. So now where we've been for the last 15 months is that the Attorney General 15 months ago indicated that Julius, any death row inmate would have the right to a commutation hearing. And so we started on this path to have a commutation hearing. We finally had one in early 2021. We had stage one that then allowed us to be able to move to a stage two hearing that happened, we thought was going to happen in June, but they pushed it back to September. In between all of this, we've had many attempts by the district attorney and the attorney general to try to change the rules of the game. including removing pardon and parole board members that they thought would actually vote against

what they want the outcome to be. And so on September 13th, after many attempts in illegal proceedings to try to disrupt the pardon and parole board, they finally met on September 13th, and they voted three to one for life with the possibility of parole based on the evidence that was presented. This was the first time that Julius's team was able to actually present evidence that supported his innocence in this case. On September 28, the governor of the state of Oklahoma denied that recommendation, not based on merit, but based on the fact that even though the Attorney General 15 months earlier said that a commutation hearing is an acceptable process,

he said he didn't feel like that was acceptable and that it needed to go to a clemency hearing, which was then scheduled for October 26. And so now that's where we are now, waiting for the clemency hearing on October 26th, while we're stillwithstanding the district attorney just last week trying to get rid of two pardon and parole board members through the Criminal Court of Appeals, that was denied seven to zero. And now the Attorney General has also made the similar request to get those two individuals removed. And on top of that, the district attorney has initiated a grand jury hearings that started on October 18th with the express purpose of trying to arrest or get rid of board members that they feel like will vote against what they think the outcome should be.

I think we have Antoinette. explaining that so thoroughly for us. I think... You have my sister, Tiffany, Oh, wow. Hi, Tiffany. Hi, how are you all? Very good, very good.

Thank you so much. And Antoinette is back. Oh, she's back. Okay. Oh, so we got the whole family. I love this. I have a question. Yeah, I have a question, but I want, I want Antoinette to speak on this as well. And I mean, I guess we could get started, you know.

Okay, there we go. Hi, Antoinette. Welcome back. The question I want to ask is, unfortunately, for many of us, this is the first time we are meeting Julius Jones. And I would love if you could tell us what kind of man and person he is outside of what we're learning about the case. So Julius has always been like my, my greatest supporter. He's always been like my, my top. fan. He's, man, he's just, he's a phenomenal human being. He's a genius. Um, he's, he's well

taught. Like, he teaches itself things that he couldn't do. Like, we, we joked about it and called, he used to call him the tracing king because he couldn't draw. He couldn't draw, he couldn't draw, he couldn't draw to save his life. So my oldest brother is really good at drawing and I'm okay, but he taught himself how to draw, like he, he draws these little cartoon, cartoons on, like, different cards. He creates cards to send to people. I don't know if he's been doing it recently because he's having issues with his hands, but he

is a young man that loves, he loves for people to have fun, and he doesn't like drama. So wherever we go, he's always like the, he's like the life of the party, but he's also like that person that just wants to make sure everybody's

good, they're doing good. If they don't have some, he wants to give it to him. He is a person that likes to push you to do the best that you can do. If there are any weaknesses that you have, like, as far as, like, sports and things like that, he always worked with me. And it didn't seem like it was practice. It didn't seem like it was training.

It was he made it fun. He's also a person to think, like, he made me think I had my own independence one time when I was 13, not 13, when I was like 10 or 11. It was like the fair time. And so he was like, now I'm going to let you go hang out with your friends. You know what I'm saying? Be independent. don't get in trouble and we're going to meet back at this particular place.

And so I was like, yeah, I get the hands with my friends. So occasionally I would look up and I would see my brother like in the view not too far away. And I was like, man, he watching me. So but he let me enjoy myself and have fun and he wasn't like overly crowded, but he's always that person that's watching. He's always that person like if I had a game and I wasn't really like pushing my myself, he was like, hey, you know you got this in. You know what dad told us. Go get it. And he was like, he would tell me like certain things like, we're being nice on the court because

he, he's a nice person. Like he's very kind, sensitive, but on the court, on the football field, he don't play no games. I'm not trying to like boast him, but he was a phenomenal athlete. Baseball, track, football, basketball. I'm not saying he was the. best, but like he was very impactful on both sides of the court on offense and defense. He's smart. He remembers what he reads. I don't want to get it wrong, so he's photogenic, if I'm not mistaken. He's really good at math like both of my parents are.

Both of my parents are exceptional mathematicians. I didn't get that, by the way, at all. I'm just, I'm just the little average little baby Jones. But Julius is, he is such a light. He's always impactful. His spirit is just so uplifting and impactful. Like, we'll be going to the prisons on Sundays to go visit him. And he's encouraging us.

And I'm like, bro, how are you doing? He said, I'm all right. It's go time. It's time for us to go. It's like we in the finals. And I'm ready, I'm ready to play the greatest player ever. So let's talk a little bit about something that you alluded to, Antoinette. So when people leave this podcast, they're going to go look up the story of Julius Jones

and they're going to ask the questions what led to the conviction. We know the holes in the prosecution's case. What evidence did the prosecution actually have that they built, that they based their case on, besides the testimony of the guys that you're talking about. And how is that ringing untrue to the general public? Why can every, why does everyone look at this case and go, this is something where justice was not served? Tiffany, if you want to jump in and maybe help us out with that too.

So first you have two informants, two known informants on Jesus' case. Julius was not convicted off of DNA findings. He was not convicted off of the description of the shooter. So you have hearsay. He was convicted off a hearsay. Just to be honest with you, he was convicted off a hearsay. So he didn't have experienced counsel. So he had a public defender that had never tried a capital murder case before,

let alone a murder case before. That's, you know, that's important. You must have experienced counsel. We must have adequate counsel, you know, to keep yourself from getting on death row. How many white people do we, excuse me, how many white males do we know that got the death penalty given to them early on in a case? We don't know that many. Right. And I'll stop right there and let somebody else jump in.

But it was, it's so much that was against Julius just early on from inexperienced counsel. And not to mention the DA at the time, Mr. Robert Macy, he appointed Julius's public defender. If I'm not mistaken, in the amendments, we're supposed to enjoy a proper defense, right? Right, of course. And we're supposed to have a juror appears, right? Right.

He did not have a juror appears. So for all those saying they had a juror peers, he had 11 white people in one black person. That is not a juror of Pierce. He didn't have due process. See, it's things like that. And I'll stop and let somebody else. You know, I'm just sitting here.

You know, I am my sister's keeper. I'm Tiffany Crutcher and I've been, I'm a health care provider turned activists. I came back to Oklahoma from Montgomery, Alabama. When my twin brother, Terrence Crutcher, was actually executed by the state of Oklahoma, by a Tulsa, Oklahoma police officer named Betty Shelby. And this case really spoke to me.

I realized that I can't bring Terrence back, but I knew that I had to get on the ground and stand in solidarity with my sister and fight like hell to make sure that the same state that executed Terrence Crutcher didn't execute Antoinette's brother. He is my brother too. And so this is classical Oklahoma. We are dealing with all things injustice. We are dealing with a system that's never really treated black people. right, we know that across the country. Oklahoma's the microcosm, but when we date back to the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, they sanctioned the violence. They sanctioned the violence against my twin brother. Now they're trying to do it the system against Julius Jones. The evidence is clear and convincing

there's an alibi, the the actual killer turned states evidence, and we're, we still have an execution date. It wouldn't happen if it was a white man. We are the number one incarcerated in the world. I mean, the governor just signed the anti-protest bill into law. He signed a critical race theory bill into law, which is a censorship bill. And now they're trying to censor us to be quiet about Julius Jones, the DA, the attorney general. I mean, there is so much public corruption going on in this case. And the fact that his own appointees to the partner and parole board made the recommendation

to commute his sentence and he rejected it, says a lot about what's going on in the state of Oklahoma. And so we are on the ground doing everything that we can to make them hear us, but we just need more people, more people in the state of Oklahoma screaming Julius Jones so we can save this man's life and not only save his life, but free him because, he is innocent and he deserves to be at home with his family. And that's why we're here and we're not

going anywhere. That's right. One of the things, and Minister Jossel, you mentioned this, I want to know where we are right now with Julius's case. Like what's coming up. We definitely want to get into what we can do. But where are we right now? Because something that you mentioned when you were explaining, you know, what has happened over the last 20 plus years is that just recently, you all were able to present evidence on Julius's behalf for the first time in over 20 years. So where are we right now? Who's joined the case to help? And what are the upcoming hearings or, you know, events that have to, that are leading up to that date? So Julius has a amazing legal team. I wish that he had this legal team 22 years ago because we wouldn't be

having this conversation with you right now. When they presented the case at the commutation hearing on September 13th, they actually proved to the question you were asking earlier, Van, that this was just a house of cards. They took a bunch of innuendos, they took a bunch of presumptions and they laced them all together and they created a narrative that Julius was a convicted killer, that he was a thug, that he was the gang member, that he was all of these horrible things that had done this horrible thing to this, this man, Paul Howland. And so when the evidence was heard, Rachel, with the governor's appointees, it was clear to them based on that legal team's presentation that Julius was innocent. And that's why they made the recommendation of life

with the possibility of parole. Now that that's been denied, there is a lot of living taking place behind the scenes trying to get that pardon and parole board dismembered so that they can replace them with others that might vote the way they'd want them to vote. It is a travesty that we have a pardoned parole board in place

that was appointed by this governor and this state is trying to change the members on the seat because they don't want the case, they don't want the recommendation to come back again on October 26th that they've received on September 13th because it might look strange. It already looks strange because the vast majority of the time, 95, 98% of the time, the governor always accepts the recommendation of his own partner parole board. but that didn't happen on September 13th. And so now by actually trying to change the members on the partner of parole board

to have a different recommendation, the governor doesn't want to be in a position again where he is going against what his pardon and parole board recommends. And so here we are on this Tuesday, getting ready to have this October 26th hearing. What's important for you to know is that according to what the state calls it, Julius is on death watch right now. He went on death watch Thursday, October 14th. And what that means is they took him out of his death row cell and they put him in the death row chambers, the cells right next to the execution chamber.

On the 14th, they asked him, what did he want as his final meal? They asked him, who did he want to be there when they execute him with the lethal injection? They asked him, what did he want done with his remains? And then this dehumanizing chambers where he has lights on him 24-7. This is like POW terrorism that we're doing to American citizens in our own justice system. And he has to put covers over his head to be able to sleep at night. He has two guards that are watching him at all times, and they're expecting him to be of sound mind and strong physical body when he comes before them on the 26th of October to be able to testify and be interrogated by members of the pardon and parole board as he is speaking for his life and his freedom. And so that's where we are right now.

This is America. right here in Oklahoma, this is America. We're not doing this to an Afghan rebel. We're not doing this to a Russian spy. We are doing this to a black man in Oklahoma. And I want you to know, Rachel, after I say that, that Julius is ready, Julius being a state champion in football and basketball,

as I talked to him this morning, he said, hey, this is why you go through three a days when you're in football training. This is why you do the two days in basketball. You want it to be so difficult and so challenging that when you actually get in front of the game and you face the opposition that you're able to overcome and excel. And I plan to go get it.

I plan to go get my freedom. And no matter what they do to me, I am preparing myself. So he spends 19, 18 hours a day right now, just preparing. for the opportunity to speak for himself on Tuesday, October 26th. The governor in this situation seems to be going through, going to an extreme limit to execute this brother. What is the political reason?

What is the reason why in this particular case is it so important for the governor and the government there in Oklahoma to put Julius to death. What kind of people are we dealing with here? What are we, for the people that are looking at this, they're thinking justice demands that a man's case be heard and he be given the opportunity, every opportunity to preserve his life.

Why are they doing this? Oh, actually it's the district attorney, not the district attorney. Oh, the district attorney. I'm sorry. So him coming the way he's been coming, it feels very personal. I don't even know this man. I don't know this man personally.

I don't think my brother does. None of my parents. I don't, we don't understand why he's coming so hard. Like it seems like he's trying to cover something up. And that's basically what it is. He's trying to, so he's been trying to keep Julius silent since he came in the office to, to his, he's the protege of the past DA, Bob, Robert, excuse me,y. So all I can say is he's either trying to protect his.

image, which I don't understand why, because out of the 54 cases that Mr. Robert Macy had, 33% of those cases were overturned because of prosecutorial misconduct. And that's just the beginning of why they were overturned. Then you have the two informants that Julius had in his case. You had Carmen Lottie. You had Liddell King. Those are two known informants. And also, out of the 10 people that have been, I think since 1970, out of the 10 people, people that have been exonerated off of Oklahoma's death row. Paris Powell's case, Kermit Lottie was a part of the reason why

Paris Powell was convicted in the first place. So you take that in account. Jesus has two informants, not one. He has two known informants that don't go due time. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of narratives here, Van, in Oklahoma that is saying somebody's got to pay. somebody's right person pay.

And so Christopher Jordan can't be tried for this again. They gave him a 15-year deal. He's out. So somebody's got to pay for the death of this Edmond, Oklahoma businessman. Somebody's got to pay. And so this is not unusual in this state, as Antoinette said, because there's been 10 exoneries that have been found factually innocent. And one of those others, as she said,

was put on death row from the same informant that put Julius on death row. And it was found to be that he was lying about his testimony in regards to that individual. You should also know there have been four inmates in prison who have come forward with sworn attestations saying that Christopher Jordan admitted that Julius was not there and that he framed that murder and that he did it. Those individuals don't met Julius. They don't know each other. They all are saying the same thing. And unlike those two informants for the government, they receive no incentive for coming forward

in telling us this information. The Jones family never had an opportunity to testify in the original case, even though they were sitting there with Julius is the night that this murder happened. Will they have a chance to speak? And maybe they have already, and I, and I missed that. Because I know that, you know, the Hal family has and the sister, who's the eyewitness,

will she have a chance to speak again? Because I know she's saying things like everything that's happening. She feels, quote, re-victimized in all of this. When will the Jones family give their day in court or a hearing for them to be able to speak until their version or their account of the events from that night. On October the 26th, 2021 at 9 a.m. It will begin, we will begin to have a true, a true understanding from Julius's account. He will be able to talk and tell his story for the first time, for the first time in over 22 years.

now we can't lay out the plan that we have but I just want to thank God for this extraordinary awesome defense team that we now have and the reason why some people are so hard pressed against all the evidence that has been coming out since 2017 is because this is what it's like to have an actual proper defense experienced counsel

Julius never had that. So for them to see all, these exhibits, all this proof, signed affidavitans, people coming forward and wanting to testify, people that had been in the court over 20 years ago and were ready to testify for Julius, this is what we're seeing now. This is why it hurts so much for the Hal family, because they were told half-truths. But this is also why my mother and my father have been victimized. Our house has been turned upside down five or more freaking times. You know, cars been vandalized, you know, calls made, you know, and how they messed up the house,

I will never forget that, how they messed up the house that night that they were looking for him. He wouldn't be found in a box of cereal, right? Can't fit in a box of cereal, right? Or some tide, are some tide, you know, detergent. Like, it's stuff like that, but I still don't hate the police. I still have love for the police because I understand. But that particular night, and for a couple of years, I was scared of the police. But to go back to that, this is why it hurts so much for the Hal family.

Because they were told have truths. And those truths got told, got corrected on 913. And they'll be recorrected on 926, I mean on 1026. and that's really that's really why the district attorney is trying so hard for this to not let this happen. To silence a man and let him die,

we shall not be silenced. I've been voicing my opinion since I was 14 through 18 through and I'm going to keep going. We're going to fight until my brother gets out. Okay, last question for me. What can we do? Rachel says there's a question that she was going to allude to. I think that was a question

that everybody's going to be asking themselves. how can the people out here they are hearing this and are against this miscarriage of justice are siding with you guys what can we do is there something I'm sorry go ahead

no that's a you got a sister so number one I would ask people to continue to visit justice for Juliusjones.com and take action on the action steps we are still asking people to sign the change dot or petition there is a reason why you will be updated

upon your signature you'll be updated, but also what's the important is for you to subscribe to Justice for Julius Jones.com, which will be at the very bottom of the website. Two, we're asking people to continue to handwrite letters to the partner parole board office and the governor's office. Also, you can still email, but we're asking you to edit that email, but more importantly, we want you to handwrite letters to the governor, specifically to the governor.

Make sure you have the addressing, the honorable Kevin Stitt. We're also asking people to continue to take action as far as following all social media platforms, making sure that you post, retweet, repost, use the hashtag justice for Julius. Also, we have a new movement with free Julius Jones.com. We are asking people to take a look at that website, make the calls. Those calls have been so important. And what I'll do is I'm going to stop right now and I'm going to give it to my sister, Dr. Tiffany Crutcher, are our key.

Thank you so much. Yes, freejoliusjones.com is another campaign where we're just trying to just amp up the pressure. We've actually started making calls to a lot of the decision makers in the state of Oklahoma, the ones who's been silent. They can no longer be silent on this issue. We're asking them to call the governor if they have influence with him. We're also, you know, camping out across the street at the governor's house. When Julius went on death watch, we went on death watch with him. We want him to know that we're in solidarity with his mind, body and soul, and we are camping out across the street at the governor's house 24-7 all the way until we get him out.

And so there are so many action steps again, free Julius Jones.com. We were just on ground in Oklahoma City marching through the city. of OKC, letting our voices be heard. And so we need everybody to make calls. If you're in the state of Oklahoma, 405, Eric Code 580918, they need to hear from you. The governor needs to hear from you. And the last thing that I would just say,

Van and Rachel echoing guests to everything that you just heard, but this family, from the beginning of this movement to where we are today, have been people of faith. And Julius is a great man of faith. He believes the word, he believes God, and he most importantly, he believes he's on God's side. And he believes God is going to liberate him. The faith that we must pray, but we also must fight.

They are not incompatible with each other. So we are asking everybody to continue. If you haven't, start praying. If you have been, continue to pray, because we do believe that we're on God's side and that God intends to liberate Julius. Now, as Julius and I talked about this morning, it feels right now in the state of Oklahoma that we are two touchdowns behind with seven minutes left in the fourth quarter and it doesn't look good for us. And so we really need people to step in right now, interrupt their lives and make this an urgent aspect of their lives to be able

to bring this incredible genius, left brain, right brain, man of faith, artist, author of two books, we need to bring him out so that he can continue the work that he started in prison, but to do more for our people in our culture. Amazing. That would have been my question too. No, I just want to know how we can help. Okay. Listen, we can't even imagine what you guys are all going through.

the spirit that you've shown here today is admirable and really it embodies kind of what we want from our community, people that are willing to stand up and fight against injustice. So I thank you guys all for being here in the face of what must be an extraordinarily tough time.

So Chief Antoinette, Tiffany, thank you for joining us to Down Higher Learning. Thank you so much. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce. and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods,

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with chiqui bikini or capture sun-kissed bliss with immonada gelada where zesty Brazilian lemonade accord meets coconut milk and golden brown sugar. Don't miss Sol de Janado's limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. Okay. Dave Chappelle, walk out at Netflix. It was a big deal here in

Los Angeles. Employees and allies of the employees got together. And all up and down Vine Street, they protested Netflix's decision not to remove the closer from the streaming platform.

Ted Tarandos, who is the co-seo of Netflix is speaking out on the criticism behind the closer. And he says that he got it wrong, that the internal email that was leaked did not lead with humanity, that he was maybe a little bit too brash in talking with his employees about Netflix standing behind Dave Chappelle. He said, obviously, I screwed up that internal communication. I did that and I screwed it up in two ways. First and foremost, I should have led with a lot more humanity, meaning I had a group of employees who were definitely feeling pain and hurt from a decision we made. And I think that needs to be acknowledged up front before you get into the nuts and bolts of anything.

I didn't do that. That was uncharacteristic for me. All right, Netflix still maintains that they will not be taking the closer off of the platform. They are standing behind Dave Chappelle. Has anything that's gone on in this? We've talked about this before. You've been on record by saying you don't think they should take it off. Um, do, has anything happened that has made you go back and look and say,

maybe they should take it off Netflix. I haven't gone back and watch the special, right? I'm not, I'm not trying to give it more views or anything like that. What, what, if anything made me think of it is our conversation that we had. And at the end of it, it's like, you know, you're right. I'm coming from a personal, giving a personal opinion. And I'm not, you know, directly impacted by what the things that were said in that special. So if anything, you.

you saying that made me feel a certain way, made me rethink, you know, maybe the first thing that I said. But with old Ted here, the first thought is how much time has passed between your initial statement and then you now apologizing after the walkout? I just have a huge issue with apologies after the fact.

Like a lot of times, it's been at least a week, right? Since he initially put out a statement and then there's a walkout and now you're apologizing. Oh, now you're thinking maybe what I said. was wrong. And it's just hard for me to accept that apology. I mean, it's not mine really to accept, but it's hard for me to believe, I should say, that apology when so much has happened in between and you doubled down on the first thing you said. And now you're trying to retract it to win favor

back with your employees that are offended by the special being on your platform and the, and the letter that you wrote to employees. So it's hard for me to accept that. To me, it's like, okay, I hear you. And now you said this. So now what are you going to do? Because in his apology, he said that he was brash and maybe he was quick to respond and it didn't reflect who he is as a person. But what are you going to do as far as how people are feeling, how the community is feeling, how your employees feel? What's next? Because he really doesn't have a plan of action other than apologizing now at this point.

And to be honest, I don't think there is one. I think he said he's going to keep it up. He's now apologizing for his statement. but that's kind of it. I don't think that we're going to get anything else from this. Now, I said, I don't think you should give him the opportunity to do this again. That to me would be something. And he hasn't even said that.

Right. Well, Dave is such a draw that if there's work to be done with Dave Chappelle, not only will Netflix do the work. Probably a lot of places are going to be. Dave Chappelle is a comedy god. And he's going to be, somebody's going to give Dave Chappelle a station stand on. That's just the way that it works. This is something that, this is the only thing I'll say about this. because I really don't know what they should do at this point.

I really don't know. Wouldn't have a problem with them taking it down at all. I am delighted to see these individuals standing up for themselves. I'm delighted to see their allies out there with them making sure that they feel supportive. This is interesting. Tetsarandoes did something that I think is very, very dangerous. He sought to define hate speech as something. that directly results in physical harm or violence.

Okay, he said he didn't feel like the closure was that. And because he didn't feel like it had any real world ramifications, he didn't see it as being dangerous. So two things about that. Obviously, that's bullshit. Obviously, you know, normalizing ideas that are hurtful or harmful to any group of people dehumanizes them in a way that then makes it. easier for them to be taking advantage of or hurt.

We don't even have to talk about that, right? Like that, like obviously our societal ideas and our norms, once something's normalized, it's easy to take advantage of, easier to take advantage of somebody, right? That's, you know, that's why guys behave different in a strip club than they do in church because there are norms that exist in a strip club that maybe don't exist in your church. Maybe they do. It depends on what church you go to. I don't know.

Hey, they might be getting it with Jamal Bryant. Is that the name? Jamal Bryant. Or like Mamosas. Like Mamos says. Like my grandmother says. But so I guess I'm saying this. So is Tad Sorando saying that if a white community gets on stage and says, I hate all ugly black niggers.

And they mean it that that's not hate speech. is hey nigger nigger not hate speech Hey nigger Isn't asking anybody to go kill anyone Is that not hate speech Is so is that where we're going Like Is is is

And I would caution anyone to say That anything that stops short of calling for violence Is it hate speech What I would say is You know Is there going to be hate speech That's in art? Probably so

And are you making a distinction Between what you feel like Is a call to violence and what you feel like is just in poor taste or whatever, that's fine. I won't even begrudge you that. But to say that it's not hateful unless you're pushing a button on somebody, that opens up a Pandora's box. And everyone needs to take, everyone needs to take, send up and take notice of that.

All right. Real quick, before you go to Mailback, is one to let people know that the images that you saw of the Chicago Skies, WNBA parade with nobody being there weren't true. Okay? I saw these images floating around. At first I'm not going to lie, they were funny. I'm not going to lie. I just got to be real with you. It was funny. Probably because you knew they weren't true.

Nah, at first I thought they were true. Okay. Okay. At first I thought they were true. If they were true, would you think that it was funny? Would you have laughed knowing that nobody showed up to the W? Because that's what the images are. Explain the images. You would

have laughed. So the image, the image show two floats going by two two to caravans of people being on the thing going by of the w nba of the chicago skies parade and nobody being out there it was going around like this many people showed up there were other places other points where there are tons of people that's not what happened it's been debunked but if those yeah i would have laughed why why not because it's sad that's so funny if if those were true if that was true right And these people won their first championship. These people.

These people, damn, Rich. The team won their first championship ever for the team, for the city, WNBA. And nobody shows up. That is so sad. They were crying. They were celebrating. It's historic. It's the first time it's happened.

I mean, and nobody shows up. Guess what? That is embarrassing. That is sad. If it were true, it would absolutely not be parted. hilarious. It'd be hilarious. Tell me why.

It's funny to laugh at the fact that nobody wanted to come out and support the WNBA players. Ha, ha, man. That's what you're doing. You're doing that. No, that's what you say. You're doing that. You're doing that. I said it's only funny because it's not true.

It would be funny if it was any pro sports team. Why? Why? You may tell me right now if like the Sacramento Kings won the championship and they had a parade and they came down and nobody was at the parade that that wouldn't be funny? There's a difference because there's a history of people talking about the WNBA and nobody watches it and then being underplayed. So this is my thing. It wouldn't be funny.

It's not funny because it's the WNBA. It's just funny to win a championship. Okay, it was fine. You pay me whatever like you want, Rach. But that image at first, that was funny to me. I'm sorry. It was funny to me. I'm sorry.

They had 10,000 people there for the Western Conference finals when the fucking sky. was playing Las Vegas. People are watching the WNBA. It was 10,000 people there. People are watching the sport. Okay. All right. That's why I said,

because you know it's not true. Mailback. We only got time for two mailbacks. Mailback. Let's go. Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time.

Write us with your queries and we'll chime. in. Oh, only two. Okay, wait, let me pick the best ones. Okay, this is from Rachel Josen. What is your go-to drink when going out? And what is your favorite drink when staying in?

My go-to drink for going out is a pinacolada. I can't wait till the next time we go on vacation or we go anywhere. If they serve a pinocalada at nightclub, I would get a pinacolada. if they served it. Man, no. Pinocalada. Okay, so my favorite drink is when I go out is all of them.

Whatever you're putting in front of me, I'm taking it back. Shots. Shots. Shots. Shots. Shots. At home, I just like to, at home I like to get a little repasado and coke.

Repasado and club soda. Woo! I'm into it. Now I want a pinnacolada. Pinnacolize this weekend. Really? You drink it like that at home? For me, it's a glass of wine.

Glass of wine. Okay, cool. All right. Last question. Last beer, that question. Let's go. This is from John Jacobs.

Would you rather meet your great, great grandparents or your great, great, great grandchildren? It's a great question. It's by far the great, great grandchildren. It's not even close. I was going to say the great great grandparents. No.

No. No. I was like, yeah, you're right. Not even. What? No, it's my father. Because you got to think about when was your great, great grandparents have been alive. Like during slavery.

I want to meet them. I want to talk to them. I want to meet them. I want to know another time. I want to know what it was like. I want to know how they overcame. I want to know it all. What you mean how they overcame?

Like they just lived and look, I respect them. I want to know. Plus, I don't even want to bring them back into this. They in heaven chilling. Like with the great, great grand. children, that could be a lit party if the earth is still intact, which you probably won't be. But that could be, that could be a lit party. That could be holograms.

And they're telling me about all kinds of new shit and stars and quasar and shit. Great, great, grandpans. I love the history. I want the history. Wow. I just knew we were going to be on the same age. Half of the great, great grandpents, they're just going to be looking at you and crying. This would be, oh, my God, I can't believe.

So, look, I would rather do the great, great grandchildren. You know, I don't want to watch another slave movie. That's all I'm saying. I love them. I love them. They went through it. You know why? Like I know my great, great grandfather was run out of the family.

He actually stayed. They were run out by the KKK of Louisiana. That's how we got to Texas. He stayed, huh? He's so because the family escaped. They were trying to steal his land. So what you're telling me is that you're a great, great grandfather wanted to start over. So he got his friends to dress up like the KKK.

Don't disrespect. Don't disrespect my family. your family out. My grandfather's a hero. He saved his family. Everybody moved in Texas and that man was like, don't you disrespect my family like that? Don't disrespect my family.

Was it all the glass. Are we not? No unexpected allies of the week. None. Do not talk about the Lindsay's that way because that's the side is on. Do you not? I'm telling you, your family was gone.

That man was in his house. I'm chasing fire. All right. Chasing fire? Oh my. I can't. I can't even. But don't stop learning.

I want to play that for you. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. We're going to go out on this. Woo! She goes out to the judge. Turn 70. Over six feet. Oh!

Just a kid. The message is from your girls. They say, put some woo's mixed into the message. Now that Sam, is turning 70, you need to step up his fashion game. Where you've come to the right guy, Judge. It's a niche boy.

The diamond ring wear, Rolex wearing, limousine driving. Woo! Jet flying. Son of a gun. Just like you, Judge, even a couple years older, is still kissing all the girls of making them cry. That's what we do.

Rip player. Rick player. Not the best. Not the best. Not the best news surrounding him at the moment, but, you know. It's Rick Flair. It's Rick Flair. It's Rick Flair. Peace, guys.