Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Kendrick Lamar’s Televised Revolution and Ben Watkins Talks Alex Cross

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

Van and Rachel react to the Super Bowl (0:00) before giving their reviews of Kendrick Lamar’s halftime show (14:42). Then, Kanye West is regrettably in the news again (31:35), and Trump signs an order in solidarity with white South Africans (45:10). Finally, the showrunner of Prime Video’s ‘Cross,’ Ben Watkins, joins to discuss Aldis Hodge’s star power (55:51) and his thoughts on him possibly being the next Black Panther (1:08:37). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Ben Watkins Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How I learning is on, is Zyvan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. The Detroit Lions didn't make the Super Bowl, but the Eagles did. Come on now. Donnie. The Eagles did.

They didn't just make the Super Bowl. They won the Super Bowl. They blew the Chiefs the fuck out. Amazing. Amazing. It doesn't give you a clear picture of how Donovan at the performance was, I think into the third quarter, Pat Holmes had under 100 yards passing. The office was fucking terrible, anemic.

They were rushing forward, the Eagles were, and getting all kinds of goddamn pressure, sacking them six times, whatever it was. We watched it at Racial House. It was fantastic. It was good. It was good. It was hard to stay motivated, I will say, after halftime. And not just because of the halftime show, what you're talking about, but just because

they whooped them. You know, you always want to see. a good game, but I do have to say I enjoyed that a three-peed did not happen. And I also enjoyed that they lost in what I will deem as an embarrassing way. Right. It just wasn't a competitive game at all. Right. It was just destruction. And I just thoroughly enjoyed it. Why? I really did. I've said before on this podcast, I'm not a fan of dynasties. I have a jewel on my two. Okay. I had it there last night. I did not.

All right, Gina. Okay. Me a nigga. I had it there last night. And a little two-piece girl. There you don't see last night. I don't have it.

I don't have it. It's hard to talk about. But I've said on this podcast, I'm not a big fan of dynasties. I like to switch it up, unless, of course, it's my team. And just everything that's surrounding the chiefs and the narrative,

I'm not a fan of it, the overload. of content with the relationship of Travis and Taylor, wasn't a fan of some of the pregame responses we got in regards to Trump's attendance and what that meant to some of the Chiefs players. I just wanted to see them. And that coupled with commercials, one of the commercials we saw was Fox News commercial,

and they threw their choice to win in, which was the Chiefs. And so I feel like the Chiefs became Trump's team. And that also made me want to root against them. The Eagles were Black America's team last night. Just put it out there like that. Jalen Hertz, real Black American excellence right there. Oh, make a side-by fraternity and corpse. Stop that.

Stop that. Stop that. The teams were Black America's team last night. It was the first win that we've had in a while. Things have been down. But we won. Jalen Hertz. got it done, him and his black wife, blick.

He was fantastic in the game. The Chiefs through, they MAGA. Harrison Buckner. Oh, yeah. They're MAGA. Harrison Buckner. They're all hanging out with Trump. It's Brittany Mahomes.

It's Jackson Mahomes. It's all of that stuff that's going on. They booed Taylor Swift. Let me tell you something. Travis Kelsey's answer about Trump coming to the game. it doesn't bother me that much. The only thing that bothered me was that Trump dissed his girl.

That's what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. Yes, it's not that he said it's an honor. Do I like it? No, but I'm not all up in arms about that. I mean, we didn't even discuss that as a topic on the podcast. But if somebody publicly dissed me, which also incites their rabid audience to come after me,

and you don't publicly have my back, we have a problem. Yeah. You better take up for me. And it's not even that he had to use that moment to specifically take up for Taylor, but he didn't have to say it's such an honor. Like, it's a bit of a slap in the face. If that's my man, we got issues. Yeah.

I was in the Super Bowl a week long. I was there. We talked about it earlier. I was doing my thing. It was crazy. It was a crazy, crazy time in New Orleans. And I'm glad that people were able to see what New Orleans can bring and deliver as a whole city.

What did you see specifically? And I'm saying this to say, a lot of people don't like New Orleans as a place for big sporting events. Why? Whether it's a, I don't know. I don't know if that's true. No, no, no.

Because when the national championship was there, I remember first hearing about that. It's, I'm not a huge fan of it. I can't say what it is. It has nothing to do with like, I love New Orleans, period. But when the game is there, I don't know.

It's just too much. It's too crowded. It's too convoluted. It's, I don't know what it is. It just feels different. And so I saw some of that talk. So just talk a little bit about like... Talk a little bit about, let's address the slander.

New Orleans is by far the best city in America for the Super Bowl. It's not even close. It's not even close. For sporting, I don't know. That's not true. That's my opinion. And I, and I, and it has been... You can't tell to your opinion.

It has been like other people have said this too. I've had these conversations, not just in my head. I'm sure you've had the conversations, Rachel. I get it. But the reality is whether it's Bayou Classic, whether it's the Final Four, whether it's the National Championship game, all of that stuff. New Orleans is a place that gives you great food,

great nightlife, great culture. It is walkable to all of this stuff. A lot of these other places, like L.A. is not a great Super Bowl city. No, I hate it here in L. spread out. The other places, it's, these cold weather

places are terrible, right? New Orleans is actually the perfect place. And by the way, the city is completely set up and engineered to take on big events

and they nailed it again. This is the only thing, this is the only question I have about Super Bowl. And it's coming around, like you're walking around the city,

right? And people are giving out free food. Have you seen this? They've never given you the free food. No, they haven't. Hmm. Are they targeting fat people?

I don't know. I would, I probably, maybe they did, I'm not taking free food off the street. It's not, that's not what I'm talking about. When I'm talking, interesting, that they, interesting, that I'm walking around and everybody's trying to give me free food, they'll try to give you free food.

Huh. Back to the story. Yeah, back to the story. They're giving out chips. It's, hey, these are the new Frito-Lay chips. It's like literally dudes with, like, little wagons full of, with Frito-Lay on the side of it, Doritos on the side of it, cocoa hoes and cupcakes on the side of it. And they're pushing these wagons around, like advertising the new flavors of different foods.

You're laughing because you know now that I've realized it's, these people targeted me. I couldn't go two blocks without somebody trying to give me the latest flavor of Dorito, the latest flavor of Ho-Ho, the latest flavor of lays, the latest, the newest drink, sugary drink. Like, I had to ask for some water. Did you accept it? No, I didn't. None of it. Zero percent. Wow. I didn't accept any of it. I didn't accept any of it. But my thing is, why can't they give away free food every weekend? My, to Lays, to Doritos, to all of these places, If y'all got enough many bags of all of this stuff that you could just give it out into Super Bowl, let's go and give out free food.

That would be the best. I'm sure they could. They don't. They never tried to give you. Donnie, do you know I'm talking about? But also, they were there for Super Bowl purposes. I have not been to New Orleans during a Super Bowl. I've been for college football playoffs.

But you've never seen that activation where they're like, hey, try this and all that stuff? But where were you? Just walking around. Like, I took a walk from my hotel up the side. out of the river walk. And then back down throughout the quarter. I bought some LSU gear. Yeah, no, they haven't.

But I, I, so you think that they, they were like conspiring like, look at him, look at him, get him, get him. This nigga wants some chips. Yeah, get him, get him. Like, he, I was dressed up in my actively black stuff so they knew I was getting a walk in and burning his like, this nigga probably hungry. He needs some chips.

Like, give him the latest nacho cheese blasts. You proved them wrong. You said no. I didn't get any of their chips. You talked them not to target. Donnie, you have been. You ever been offered free food at a big event? Yes.

Thank you. And I've been told by my mom not to accept food from strangers. So I normally put my stranger danger blinders on and ignore them completely. That's true. I wouldn't eat free food like that. Did I ever tell you the story about the hot dogs and the gumbo? No. Have I ever told this story before?

It's not ringing about. Okay, so just real quick. To Donnie's thing about accepting food. And I don't know what this is why we're preached this. Okay. So when I was growing up as a black youth in Baton Rouge, if you offered me food at your house, I wouldn't eat it. I don't know why.

You weren't taught that? I wasn't taught, like, I don't know why, but if you were like, hey, are you hungry? Even if I was hungry, I'd be like, nah, I wanted to eat. Now, people came over to our house. You had no choice you was going to eat. Right, mom will put the food in your face to make you a big hamburger, you don't eat it, she cried. Okay. But me, when I was at people's house, I wouldn't eat even if you offered me the food.

Interesting. I would. You would eat. Yeah, but I was told, like, you can't always trust, you know, what people do in their kitchen. I definitely was taught that. So I think that's one thing. And I think another thing that my parents might have been like, if people are offering you food, maybe they think you broke or something, don't eat the food. I'm not sure, but I was just kind of taught. Mason jar. Don't, the mason jar. Yeah. I was kind of taught don't eat at people. 's houses. All right. So I was at a friend of mine's house. His mother was hot.

And she was like, hey, I'm making some gumbo. Like, do you want some gumbo? I was like, no, no gumbo. Thank you very much. She's like, man, after baseball practice, she's like, man, you know, your parents aren't going to be here to pick you up for a little while. Which I got to say, the only reason why I was over there is because my parents had a habit of just not picking me up from places.

Like, why? They forgot or they were busy? My mama going to get mad because it really wasn't her. It was really that. Okay. They had a habit of just not picking me up from places. Like baseball practice is over. I'm sitting there, baseball uniform.

Nobody came to pick me up. It happened multiple times. And so there would be somebody's parents. It would be like, Van, what are you going to do? And I'd be like, I'm going to sit here until somebody come here. But they would then take me. to their house. So this is what happened.

So took me to the house. I'm waiting. I got in touch with my dad. My dad's going to be able to, don't tell her where this nigga was. My dad's going to come pick me up. She's like, hey, you want some of the gumbo. I was like, no, I don't want it.

I don't want it. I want it. No one no gumbo. So eventually it's time to eat. Okay? The gumbo comes out and there's a bowl of gumbo for me. She's like, I made you some as well. like come over here and get some of the gumbo right right away i looked at the gumbo no it wasn't for you

it's not i know the the rule was light skin i knew you could say it was the root the rue is light skin you mean light skin you cannot have a light skin gumbo rule oh i know if you have a gumbo rule that's like the color of chris brown you know no love with to that looks disgusting your gumbo rule got to be between a denzil and a jimon huntsu You got to have a dark-skinned gumbo rue because that rue got to cook for a long time. Sure. That rule got to cook down good.

And if the rue is light-skinned, you know the gumbo. That's the start of it. They didn't cook it down long enough. But there was a horror inside the gumbo. And I don't know where or why this woman got the, they're supposed to be and dooey sausage inside of the gumbo. No. There was hot dog for example.

No. I swear. Big crispy okra Krispy okra Krispy okra It didn't cook down long enough Rachel it didn't cook down

The okra that was in there It's like it just didn't cook down long enough It's the only time I eat okra is in gumbo It didn't cook I don't even like okra in my gumbo like that I do But it didn't cook down long enough It was hot dog Franks Like clumps of whatever

I'm sitting down and I'm eating And I'm watching all of these people eat this gumbo like it's the best gum. It's all they know. Going crazy on it, I take one little hit on it. One little hit and I became a black nationalist.

That's the day I became a black nationalist. And I never forget, this is the reason why you don't just go to somebody's house a staple food like that. You don't just eat it. Hot dogs in the gumbo. Well, you kind of, we should be saying,

thank you. If that's the day that you became a black nationalist, we should be thanking that family. You had an awakening. I could put them on blast right now. You did see yourself in that bowl, but you felt something. Dad came, picked me up, I was so mad.

Dad was like, I had some gumbo. He's like, why you eat from the people house? I don't know if you really have, you were four hours late. You know what I mean? It's 8 o'clock. Practice was over at 4. You're four hours late.

I don't know if you can really get on me about that. He was like, how was it? He was like, yeah, he ain't got to tell me. Look what they live. And that's it. I've never eaten, and there's a lot of white people in Louisiana who can cook their ass off. I've never touched a white gumbo since. Interesting.

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See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay, Taylor Swift got boo. Jaylor Hurts was named a Super Bowl MVP. Kendrick Lamar performs not like us at the Super Bowl. Rachel? I mean, where do I start? I We're not going to dick ride

We're going to give you our honest Opinions about Kendrick Lamar's performance After Super Bowl This is a no put it Put it you prefaced it like that Donnie put the car on up This is a no dick riding

Zone No dick riding zone High Learning I hate that you prefaced it like that Because if I compliment it I don't automatically want people to think that that's me

dick riding Because it was amazing Okay It was beautiful. Okay. It was powerful. Right. It was defiant.

Right. It was loud. Okay. It was a protest. Yes. And most importantly, it was black. Yeah. And even before the halftime, just the whole Super Bowl, I just think it was culture.

And I think it's important to say because before it started, they had Southern Marching Band there. You had the dancing dolls there. Master P walked out. You had Harry Connick Jr. It was very much so like the heartbeat of like Louisiana and the culture in New Orleans. And Lauren Daigle performed and even her rendition with trombone Shorty and of America the Beautiful. And it was just let us see perform. It just was so rich.

And then you go into the game, Eagles are dominating and then Kendrick. And it was all those things I just said, which is why I think. think it was so amazing. I think at this point now, I've watched it about six or seven times, the halftime show, because... That's kind of digriding. No, because there was so much that we didn't say. Like, we watched it.

There were certain things that caught our attention, obviously, the obvious Samuel L. Jackson, Serena Williams, the red, white and blue, you know, the streetlights, the, all of it, all of it. I don't want to, I mean, I'll let you talk about it too, but it just was, I needed to keep watching to understand. But I didn't realize how many people were upset about it until there were some Bachelanation people, which I'll get onto in a second, who had something to say. Oh, don't wait a second until us now. Well, okay. And then I said, I'll allow to you, I didn't realize that this was becoming like a race war thing and how this was like a,

I don't want to say black versus white, but just it was becoming more political, more, why are you making this about race, which is what Bachelors Nation people were saying to me. So this is what happened. There were a couple of people, I'm just going to name them, Jason Tardick, and Tyler Cameron,

who had posted that this was the worst Super Bowl ever and particularly included in that, that it was the halftime show. One of them said it was the worst performance. And I immediately wrote under, and both of them have now taken these posts down. So you can't go and find them. Why did they take them down?

There was immediate backlash. And I wrote under Tyler Cameron's, oh, you just didn't get it, friend. And I was... Is your homie? I mean, we're cool. Okay, cool. I don't know if he's still Matt James' best friend,

but he was on the bachelor, but he was Matt James' best friend. I don't know how close they are or aren't right now. Hey, can ask you a question real quick? Not to, I apologize. Like, I get to cut off Rachel three times during the whole year, and that's one of them. Okay. How come all of these people from The Bachelor got, like, up over two, three million followers and you haven't hit a million yet?

And I don't. And I lose followers every day. It is what it is. It's all the black people have less. Got my 2.2 million followers. I never fucking heard of this guy. I'm not for them. And this moment kind of highlighted that for me.

In no way am I comparing myself to what Kendrick did. But I think as black people, you can find a moment in your life where the theme of what the halftime show was applies to you, right? In order to be accepted or to fit in, you have to assimilate. You are supposed to act a certain way. That was very much so for me, obviously being a part of it. of The Bachelor. And the moment I did not play along with the rules, I was immediately met with backlash. I was reminded of to them, what I represented to them, who I was, how loud I was,

how aggressive I was, how angry I was, the moment that I didn't play their game. And it was interesting to see people from Bachelor Nation speak out and say, this was the worst performance ever. And my response to Tyler was, oh, you don't get it. But when I was, I don't. But when I I say you don't get it, it's also, oh, you don't get me. And that was also met with the comments of how people responding to me, oh, here's Rachel again, being angry, making it about race. No, it's just obvious. You didn't get the performance. It didn't, you weren't trying to understand it. It's okay to say you didn't like it or I don't know Kendrick's songs, but that it was the worst or that it was trash or that you don't get it. It also means you don't get me because it was

representative of the culture. And so it just reminded me. of that when I saw those comments and that's why they took it down because there was so much backlash. And so what I would say to, so when y'all wonder why I don't want to talk about The Bachelor, I don't want to be a part of that shit anymore.

I don't want to like be connected to the franchise in any way. It's for moments like this. You don't get me. You didn't get that. You don't get me. It's why he has so many followers and I don't.

I just don't fit in. And that's fine with me. I'm not willing to play that game. or do what it takes to fit in. I would much rather be sitting on this couch with you with our own platform where I can say whatever the fuck I want to say. I don't know why I hesitate on cursing. Because you're in Bachelor mind right now.

Yeah, right, right. Just go ahead, Rachel. Just say fuck the Bachelor. Say it. Rachel, say fuck. Rachel. I like that I've created my own community in space or we have created this where we can do whatever the fuck we wanted to do

and be as black and loud as we want to. and I don't have to play that game anymore. And every single time I like peek back in, I'm like, peekaboo. I'm quite very much so reminded why I don't want to be in that space anymore. Donnie. Yo. Shouldn't Rachel just say fuck Bachelor nation right now? Shouldn't you just say fuck the Bachelor?

Say it, Rachel. It's easy. Donnie, not you too. Rachel, just say it. That's what they say in to you. Say fuck the Bachelor. You know what I will say? I will say fuck with the Bachelor represents.

that's what I will say. As a as a what that, it's why to your point, you know, which don't get on him for interrupting. It's a very valid point. Why someone, certain people have millions of followers and I don't. I don't fit in. I did. I used to have more followers. The more I would speak out, the more I was myself, I would lose them.

I will probably lose more when this comes out. But I'm much more happier, you know, standing in my. the truth of who I am as I get to do twice a week on this show that I couldn't necessarily in those spaces. And that was the beauty of the halftime show.

Everybody thought it would just be about Drake and of course we were all on the edge of our seats about the song and how he would do that. And he definitely was taunting Drake and it was about that. But he also was taunting America. And that's why it was so important when he said,

The Revolution about to be televised. She picked the right time but the wrong guy. Okay, so I enjoyed the halftime show. I thought it was great. This is what I would say. It wasn't, in my opinion, the direct scathing criticism and protest. I've seen Kendrick go harder in that respect, right, before. So I didn't look at anything and think, oh, my God, Kendrick is calling everyone.

I didn't think that. But I didn't expect that because the venue that you're performing. on Super Bowl. So it's like whatever. There were no burned cars like I've seen them do before. Burned police cars. He didn't, he didn't perform all right. He didn't do any of that stuff, right?

But that is what it is. That's my thing. The reason why I enjoy the performance is because of the choices that were made. The choices that were made reflect an artist that wants to be true to himself. Yes. That is the thing that I like about Kendrick Lamar. there are hits that Kendrick Lamar could have done at the Super Bowl that people would have been more excited to see.

My favorite Kendrick Lamar song ever, Money Trees. He didn't do it. He didn't do money trees. He didn't do all right. He didn't bring out Rihanna and do some of the other joints. He didn't do poetic justice, which would have been interesting that people wanted to see that record so much. He didn't do a lot of those records, right?

He didn't do them because it's not what he wanted to say. I like artists who would ever venue, whatever platform stay true to what it is that they want to say. Kendrick, in my opinion, wanted to have a very direct conversation with the people that are watching him for lots of different reasons by where he is right now. And he did that. And not only did he do it, he did it with devastating precision. He did it with a visual style from the Super Bowl performance that I haven't seen before,

very intricate and complicated transitions and turns, very choreographed. Some surprises with Serena coming out. I'm glad that Serena is out there. I think she has a lot to say about some of her past relationships, and I think she's starting to dip her toe in the water of saying it. I love all of the stars. That's a big record. I loved how he played on the cultural decision,

excuse me, the cultural conversation about whether or not not like us would be performed. and he addressed it head on and used that as part of his performance. I thought it was great. Yeah. I thought it was great. If you, once again, Kendrick Lamar has said,

if you hear for the party, you might be the wrong guy. He said the right time, the wrong guy. If you hear for the party, you might be the wrong guy. But if you appreciate culture, if you appreciate artistry, if you appreciate

meaning he'll never let you down. Yeah, I mean, you know, I saw a lot of people, some of the same people I'm talking about say, you know, they wanted to see Wang. Well, yeah, you wanted to stand up out of your seats, sing the songs, which should have been interesting because they probably would have been singing the N-word with those songs.

And you wanted somebody to perform for you, which is typically what you see. But with Kendrick Lamar, it's going to be, he said it before the show. I am into storytelling. And that is exactly what you saw. It was meaningful. It wasn't just a show.

It made you think there was heart in it. And what I liked is that he predicted the backlash that he knew that he was going to get. Like he, as you listen to Samuel L. Jackson narrated and be representative and a satirical way of the government, dressed up as Uncle Sam, he said, though, this is what you need to do. And then when he does it, he sings the Sizzah songs, which everyone was like, I wanted to see more Siza. Like, that's what they kind of like. He predicted that that would be the response. And then Samuel Jackson says, good, like, you were good.

That was great. And then when he goes back into being true to who he is, he's like, all right, that's one life. That's going to cost you a life. Right. It was just, it was, I understand that visually, if you were there at the Super Bowl, it probably didn't, it didn't hit. It was four, the visuals were for TV. Well, I mean, the reality is this. Which it always is, which is why I tell people I don't like to go to the Super Bowl

because I want to watch it at home because it looks different. If you've ever been to the Super Bowl, you know that the halftime show doesn't look the same. The game is, it's different. It's better, in my opinion, to watch it at home. But do you know what, though? I think even that's a choice, I think understanding that the audience that's watching the Super Bowl in there, the tickets are $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, $9,000. If you're performing for those people, you're performing for a very specific group of people.

The people that are watching it at home, everyone can access it. And if you perform for them, you're talking to them. That's true. Maybe you're not talking to the audience at the Super Bowl. I'll say this. A lot of people that say that it was sort of a fake, watered down NFL version of a protest music. I don't think that they are completely and totally wrong. Like, I think that there was a.

way if I understand what happened and why it happened in the way that it happened. But if there's anybody out there that goes, wow, with that type of audience, you could have gone up there and did something that was really overtly, directly controversial or destabilizing. You could have made a statement about the president or about something like that. People that say what we need now is real activism in those spaces and not things that kind of eat around the edges of it. I could understand that criticism.

I don't know that I completely agree, but I could understand that criticism. You know why I would push back on that? Because I don't think it was watered down. I think it was, you know, I just think it was perfectly executed. And the reason that I, of course, people are talking about it now. But if he had gone on there and like brought out YG and said, you know, like saying fuck Donald Trump or like, you know, like middle fingers up, it's like that's all that we would have heard. And it's interesting to hear people talk about it now because you can't really say that there, you can't, nothing was that overt. So you can't speak to that. You, you can't really criticize it other than saying like the criticism, if you really listen to the criticism that people are giving.

It's not rooted in anything. It's just, because you can't tear it apart. It was a beautiful story that was told. There was a narration. There was red, white, and blue. But yes, it was made of black men. He was in the middle. There was a divide.

Like, there was so much symbolism, and it was so rich in that way, that the criticism falls flat. Now, had he been, like, middle fingers up and burning stuff, and, like, then they would have been able to directly say something. So that's why I feel like, I pushed back because it was done so well. And it wasn't watered down.

It wasn't soft. It was more meaningful, which is why I think it was great. You can't criticize it. Other than if you want to criticize something, the audio was a little bit bad. The audio was a little bad. I thought it was inspirational. I loved it. But the criticism I've heard, hey, Kendrick didn't play the hits,

which is what we are there for the Super Bowl for. and A, we wanted him to go further. I get people that feel that way. I did not feel that way. Gates and Beaubour did. Matt Walsh hated it. The usual suspects. Carrey Lake hated it. Lauren Boulbert hated it.

Matt Gates hated it. A bunch of freaks. One one that likes teenage girls, allegedly, and the other one that likes to jacking. her alpha in Beetlejuice. By the way, I'm not judging him for, oh, I'm actually judging him for liking teenage girls. I definitely judging him for that.

But her jacking somebody off at Beal Juice, you know, shit happens. But, um, okay. She, you know, I just don't want to be morally reprimanded from someone who, got to give a little handy jade. Who's a hypocrite? Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, they're all playing their part in the entire thing. Donnie. You ready to talk about Kanye West? I am not. Weird shit he's been saying well get ready Rachel

we're talking about it he uh it looks like his Twitter account was disabled I don't know if it's still disabled as of me speaking right now but over the weekend he said a bunch of wild shit

that I don't think I need to repeat super weird and then his wife posted a message that was like a prayer for his well-being and seemed like kind of

an not apology, but like a seek for help for him of sorts. And her reps came out

and said that that wasn't her that said this, that posted this, that's kind of been taken back. And then it looks like, so at the Super Bowl

last night, in certain markets, there was a Kanye commercial that played. Did y'all get that in L.A.? We did. Yeah,

we got it in Atlanta too. And it was directing people to go check out his website. And if you do that, the only thing that's on there is $20 t-shirts that have swastikas on them. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it.

Oh, okay. It's a clear out. Okay, so first of all, to Bianca's message, I don't think I care anymore about how Kanye is doing. I think that there's always been a part of me and a part of a lot of people that legitimately care about how he's doing. doing and whether or not he's good, right? Just as a person, because the music meant so much to you when you're at such a

formative time. I've talked at nauseam and at length about why the moment in the past between me and Kanye was what it was, and it was because he simply was one of my artistic heroes. That's obviously gone. And the world at this point would be better off. without Kanye's influence in it. Not saying I don't want anything to happen to him, but just saying if we never heard from Kanye again,

we would all be better off. And so when I look at Kanye, when I look at him, like put people in harm's way, with him saying, who amongst us has never run out of words with their bitch? He's talking about beating women, right? When I look at him, put the swastika on T-shirts and talk about how awesome Hitler is.

Once again, Adolf Hitler hated black people. He hated anyone that didn't represent his ideal of the Uberman, which was the white, the Aryan champion. And so that swastika represents violence. It represents World War II. It represents an ideology that makes people that aren't one specific type of person, the person that Kanye wants to be, makes them unsafe. his freedom to say all of this stuff,

his freedom to talk about all of this stuff is more important than the people's lives that he destabilizes. I want you to think about this. Kanye West is talking about what it means for, you know, he's talking about being able to hit women. Yes.

As a daughter. What type of man... Daughters. Daughters, should I say? What type of man, what type of father would put the safety of their daughter behind their ability to say whatever they want to say. Look, you might think I'm reaching too deeply into this.

The reality is we are quickly, quickly and very deeply contending with a bunch of people who are grabbing at real cultural power. Not in the abstract. They're not just talking anymore. Your body, my choice, It isn't just a joke. It's something that people believe. Like firing people, getting rid of people, putting people back in their places, reestablishing the white male orthodoxy that has governed the world, every part of the world, the Western world, should I say, for the last X amount of decades, is a real thing to them. And they think women and black people, particularly black women, having any say in how they're not.

the world is changing is a bad thing. Kanye's with them. He's with them. He's with them. He is someone who every time he opens his mouth, he is going to put whatever he is thinking and feeling in that moment above the prodigious influence that we've given him by supporting his music and paying attention to him in the past, which is ironically is what I'm doing right now. So to me, I think he's, I think he's pathetic. I think he's pathetic.

I think he's dangerously selfish and obsessed with American whiteness. And I think it's not even sad anymore. It's angering. he's a part of it. And either he doesn't believe that people care about what he says or he doesn't care about the fact that coming out and saying these things and not just saying them, but living in the way that he does. I joked about him being, his wife being naked all the time.

His life is reflecting a lot of the ideas that he's put on his Twitter. He's living with a woman that he is controlling. He's living with a woman that he is controlling. He's living with a woman that he commands to be naked everywhere. He's looking, that's their business, right? But it's not as if the rest of this stuff is just an Andy Kaufman performance art act. It's not. It's real.

He's empowering Nick Fuentes. He's empowering Milo Yanopolis. He's talking about cozying up to some of the most dangerous right-wing political figures. He is cozying up to them. that exists today. He just is the most irresponsible, pathetic person that the culture has ever made famous. Yeah, and who would have known it would have taken this turn?

Let me ask you this. You know, when Donnie started introducing the topic, I was like, I do not want to talk about him. And I know that there are a lot of people who share the same sentiment as me that we should just ignore him. I had a friend say to me the other day, you know, it's like the person that you see you pass by on the street that's like

ranting and rambling and, you know, like you just ignore them, right? You just keep on walking past them. So my question is, how much influence do you think that Kanye has? Do you think that when he goes on, because it's been very quiet, which has been very nice? Now he's back. You know, some say it's because he's promoting clothing. Some say it's the new album. For whatever reason, he is back.

and he is back and each time he comes back, it's worse. Do you think that he has actual influence so we should be talking about the things that he does? Or do you think we should just ignore him and not give it anything? And what you said was great, amazing, and it's true, and I love how you pulls yourself out of Kanye and talking about the bigger picture of things.

So I'm not, this isn't a knock to you. It's just a question that I know in conversations that we have off mic. Do you think he has actual influence to where we really need to talk about it? Is he preaching to the choir like a Nick Fuentes? Or should we just ignore him? I don't know.

And that's what's hard. It's also like talking, sorry I just cut you off. But it's hard because it's like, well, is this a mental illness? And, you know, like, do we give him some grace? That's what I'm saying. That was the conversation before. It's like, well, how do we talk about this?

because he's sick. It's, I don't know what to do with the topic of Kanye, which is why I just kind of shut down and I'm like,

I don't know if it's, he is so pathetic. I personally feel like it does, we are starting to ignore him. We should and we are starting to ignore him like the person who's rambling

on the corner, on the street corner. So, hmm, the person that's rambling on the street corner doesn't have anyone that actually believes what they're saying is true.

Which is why I ask you the question. This is what I would say. There has to be a counter-narrative of men, particularly, who talk about what manhood, masculinity, and importance really means. Masculinity, in my opinion, being a man, being an alpha, being whatever, it's not about who you can dominate, which is what the narrative is becoming. Really what the narrative always was.

We were trying to change it. We didn't do a good job. It's not about who you can dominate. It's about who you can protect. You are simply not a man, in my opinion, if there's nobody who can rely on you. If there's nobody who can rely on you for protection, for guidance, for development,

for advice, if there's nobody that says my life is a little bit better because this person makes me feel safer than you're not a man. My father, father, false that he had

instilled something into me to where I knew that if I was in trouble, he was there. I knew that he would try to make a world where I was protected and when my voice was heard. And that meant something to him.

Having a sense of responsibility based upon what you say and how you comport yourself, that is manhood. It's not recklessness. It's not nobody can tell me what to do. It's not you should care about what you do. You should care about what you say.

You should care about a video of a woman being brutally beat up. You should care about that. You should want to see that exterminated from our society. Because you are, as Mr. Wilson says, as Jason Wilson says, a comprehensive man. doesn't mean you dominate people

doesn't mean you dictate to people it means you are there for people and to me when I look at someone that has this type of platform and this type of influence do almost everything he possibly can to make different groups of people less safe he's a cuck he's a cuck and he's been sold

on the same version of of masculinity that seems the rest of these, and I'm getting a little toxic now, these tiny dick people walking around here think that it's not about who you protect manhood. It's not about who you show up for. It's about who you dominate.

It's just not, it doesn't work. And it particularly doesn't work for us. It doesn't work for us as black people because we need community. We need to be able to call upon one another. The reason why, you know, I go back and forth of people that criticize me and all of that stuff like that, but the reason while I'm willing to get criticized and come back and say, hey, I made a mistake and say, this is me, I'm ignorant to a lot of things I'm learning, is because we need community. We need to be able to pull each other along and we need to be able to push each other.

Doesn't mean that one of us is right all the time. But someone that seeks to be a kingdom unto himself and dictate to everybody else and just wants to be, wants to talk about how much, well, yeah, blah, blah, blah, all of that stuff. to me, that's not a comprehensive man. That's not a black man. And the only reason why you would discuss it is to have somebody that's standing in the gap going, hey, whose life you affect is more important than how much money you have. Who can feel good about themselves because you're around?

Who you can inspire? Who you can be there for is more important than how many women you have sex with. It's more important than whether or not you can get Donald Trump on the phone. It's more important than all of that stuff. And from that manosphere type of deal, that's what's coming from them. And so, look, we struggled with it and we spent probably too much time on it. But I don't want anyone that has, that's looking at him to think, yeah, that's how I want to be. That's my thing.

So 46, 47-year-old man right there who doesn't have it within him to say that abusing women is something we shouldn't stand for. Yeah. He's making an unsafe world for his daughter to choose all of that toxicity over your own seed. Deeply, deeply disturbed. Yep. That's all I got. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Creek. The day doesn't ask for permission.

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Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. We got one more thing, Donnie. We do. I was hoping, I wish we had something lighter to end on, but Donald Trump signed an executive order on Friday that's aimed at freezing assistance to South Africa over this controversial law that allows the government to seize farmland from ethnic minorities, which is mainly white farmers without compensation. As well as South Africa's stance against Israel and the war against Gaza, Trump said that the U.S. will no longer support South Africa with foreign aid if such policies continue.

And he ordered U.S. agencies to stop providing any aid to South Africa unless deemed absolutely necessary. What are your all thoughts on this latest order? I'm sick of us. Not us. America. This Trump administration over it, like, obviously you can't deny the connection between Trump, Elon Musk, and South Africa. Elon Musk being from South Africa. And Trump was talking about stuff like this back in his first

administration. But the reality is that land ownership in South Africa, white South Africans make up 8% of the population and own 75% of the country's farmlands. Black South Africans make up 80% of the population and own just 4%. What's being done there with this? this act isn't just randomly taking over land and providing or just, they're not randomly taking over land. They're doing it because of apartheid and the injustices that obviously are still prevalent within South Africa because of how long that was ruling the country there. And when you look at the act, they're only doing it to take back land that's in, public interest for the public interest.

Same thing like here, imminent domain. That's exactly where I was going with it. It's imminent domain. We do it here. And it's been done here. And to the disadvantage of poor people and minorities, they take over. Yes, they compensate you, but they give you the fair value of land. What's happening there is they're doing it for public interest and they're only doing it if

there's an agreement with the farmer. They're compensating them. Sounds like better than what. what you get for fair market value here with eminent domain. Cities, states, the government, they take over land all the time for the public interest. And fairly, and I'm using air quotes for the people who are listening, compensate the landowner. And a lot of times it's those who are less fortunate who get their things taken away from them and then can't, or their land taken away from them and then can't get back what they lost. So yeah, like all this is is Elon Musk.

Elon Musk, period. And whiteness, centering whiteness. Trump being the pope of white supremacy, like I said before, this is within his range of priorities to make sure that the Afrikaners, the people who took, literally, took land from the natives there, that they don't have to give too much back. First of all, this stuff, this plan, all of this stuff, the equaling out the land was ratified in the Constitution,

whatever the new government took over. I think that was in the mid-90s there in South Africa, so this is not anything that hasn't been planned and talked about for a very long time. Number two, this historic redress is important to making South Africa into the type of society that it wants to be moving forward. society that's not dominated by a white minority.

In the past, yes. But that's not the only reason why this is happening in terms of Elon Musk, in terms of it looking good to white people everywhere. This is also most likely revenge against South Africa for South Africa's actions in the international criminal court, international criminal justice and holding Israel, you know, responsible for the long-going justice. genocide in Gaza and the fact that, you know, South Africa was one of the countries very, very deeply involved with getting Benjamin Netanyahu declared a war criminal. And Trump getting

involved with this, he's fighting a three-form war, one, making it look like reverse racism in South Africa with some global human rights issue where the reason, when the reason why this exists the way that it does. It's because of systemic land grabs that have happened back in the day because of apartheid. Number two, doing it at the behest of Elon Musk, who's family lineage comes from the apartheid, South African system. And then three, putting South Africa back in its place or having a mitigated gall to call out Israel and what's going on in Gaza right now. these are the types of foreign policy issues from the Trump administration that people should be paying attention to.

Obviously, there's a lot of stuff domestically that we should be paying attention to. But at the same time, when things like this happen, we should kind of look at the way that the administration is operating. Right. This also might have something to do with South Africa and Africa's ties to the Chinese. and whether or not Trump is trying to drive a wedge or bring the South African government to its knees so that they'll be even more dependent

on the United States. I don't know what countermeasures South Africa will have other than to rely on different nations. So I don't know what they'll be able to do. But the aid is going to have, the aid that's being frozen, it's going to have real consequences. They're going to be people who can't get medications that they need.

They're going to be all kinds of things that actually happen to people because of an issue that is really a non-issue that has more to do with them governing their society the way that they want to govern it. And Trump meddling for almost no reason other than who sits around him in the White House and what it looks like to people that from the outside looking in and making sure that Netanyahu is pleased with the things that he does. Absolutely. Well, I mean, similar to what we've seen with some of the other countries that Trump has tried to bully, which he's bullying them, obviously. They're saying that they're not going to back down and they're threatening to leverage their mineral exports. I don't know what that is in comparison to the aid that they're no longer getting from or that is being frozen right now coming from the U.S. But I know it's gold. I know it's platinum.

And so they're saying that they're going to withhold their things too. We'll see what happens. We'll see. Being that I was almost completely wrong about Canada and Mexico. You're going to shut up? The more that I've delved into it, I was completely wrong. Trump is the one, I just got to say it, guys. Trump is the one who actually blinked.

Trump stood down in that. But isn't it interesting that that's not the headline? It's not the headline because people like me didn't actually do the layered work that they needed to do to get into the issue to frame it in the way. that it should have been framed. And going forward, because let me tell you why, I was hyper-reactive to it.

I was hyper-reactive to it because I was mad at the Colombians, because I was mad at the Mexicans, because I was mad at the Canadians, because I was like, do not back down to this guy. So the fear that you have of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement

makes you, it actually lobomizes you, where somebody like myself, who has a responsibility to be able to sit back, analyze that and actually tell people what actually happened rather than call people out for punking out to him, which is what I was doing. I was very upset that they did that,

which they really didn't do anything, doing it again. Okay, so I didn't really analyze that in the way that I should. But it's important to keep your eyes on what actually happens so that you don't fall for the smoke screen. So we don't have to be like Van. Like Van Lathen did. Like I did.

Like then I talked about myself in the third person. You got anything else. Oh, we got Ben Watkins. From the show Cross, we got the showrunner of Cross. Ben Watkins coming up. Ben, me and Ben, are going to talk a little bit about the secret Hollywood meeting that we were at that Rachel wasn't necessarily a part of. There's no not, wasn't necessarily, I wasn't.

Would you like to come to the next Secret Hollywood meeting that me and Ben are invited? Okay, Secret Hollywood meeting that me and Ben were invited to and how we met. We're going to talk about cross on prime video. Donnie, is it Amazon Prime or Prime video? Because I did it. Same thing. But look, I hosted. I moderated a panel one time where they were like, don't call an Amazon Prime, call it Prime Video.

I mean, it's Prime Video. It's a Prime Video. Yeah. Prime Video. Cross on Prime Video. And whether or not Aldous, his name is Aldus, I call him Aldus. I've always called him that. Whether or not Aldous Hodge should be the next Black Panther.

Alis Hodge? You want that with chocolate Chocolia? Seas candy little chocolate Little chocolate little chocolate Let's keep going

Chocolate chocolate chocolate Choco chocolate How dark do you go What do you mean How dark do you go I don't like that question You look like there might be a level I love black men

Like There's no I don't want to be like I don't like be like It's as this I don't like that I like black men. So super, because like, there's been,

there are women in the past who say problematic things. Like, they don't like them that dark. I don't like them that light. You don't like them that light. Now, see, here's a deal. Is that problematic to say? I'm sure it is to some people. But you have a preference.

I have a preference. What's too light? No, we're not doing this. Give me an example of somebody who's too like. My ex? That's a fucking A plus answer. A-plus answer. A-plice.

A-naker was much too light. Bill walking is on the other side of this episode. This episode is brought to you by Weather Tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need Weather Tech unless you plan on. doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Okay, there's a show right now on Amazon that people are loving. It stars one of my homeboys. Aldous Hodge is called Cross. Now, Alex Cross is someone that we should know about.

Many different iterations of him have been played. Morgan Freeman. Kiss the girls. Tyler Perry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And our Aldous is playing Alex Cross. We have the showrunner of this hit show. Ben Watkins joined us on Higher Learning right now.

Before I even get into Ben, asking Ben questions, I want people to know, get into Ben was crazy. I want people to know that me and Ben actually met at a real-life secret Hollywood meeting. What? Oh, so this really happens? They actually happened. We're not going to talk about what the meeting was about. It was the Illuminati? But this, we actually met at a real life secret Hollywood meeting.

Okay, I can't let you just put a period behind that. Now, I'm not asking for the details because I don't know if, you know, y'all like swap blood or whatever, whatever goes down at these secret meetings. But why was it secret? If it's for a good cause, why was it a secret? You know, I'm just asking the questions that the listeners are going to on and out. Yeah, think about the, you know, run through the list of, topics and or issues that are so controversial that folks would consider meeting in secret to talk about them versus in public.

And that list ain't going to be too long. And that was one of the issues. If you think about it, it'll present itself. Okay. So the revolution will be televised. Definitely will be. But I'm just, I mean, I'm with Van. I mean, every time something like that happens, you know, it's still, it makes sure.

you, it makes you perk up because you spend your whole life here and everybody. And then all of a sudden you're at one and you're like, what is happening right now? This really happens? Yep. These people, you're gathering secretly and conspiring. Yeah, secret Hollywood. Well, that makes me energized. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, for sure. So, Ben, Cross, big success, big success about what you thought or are you surprised? with the success of the show, which I think is for a time or even maybe still now the number one show on Amazon. Well, yeah, no, it's not the number one anymore, but it was for a very long stretch

and it's still in the top 10 for them. And at one point, it was, you know, just insane. Number one show in over 120 countries worldwide for Amazon. And, you know, I will say I expected it to do well because I thought the work was good. I thought the show was good. And I knew it had some IP because that brought cross-book series been read by a lot of people. I did not expect it to hit the way it did.

I think a lot of factors came into play in order for that to happen, including the timing of when it dropped. But I think the thing that really made it expand is that folks started embracing it as more than just a crime show. they really leaned into the elements that we laced in there that for us we wanted to elevate the show by putting in a character journey and building out black family and black community and the thing that shocked me

was how much people really leaned into those elements as their favorite parts even though you have a great serial killer that is driving the show. And I think that expanded the audience And I think that also, because it's universal, you know what I mean? That's one of the reasons, you know, people really responded worldwide. Yeah, how did you decide?

Because this is the first time it's been a TV show, right? Like, the characters. Like, how did you know that that's what you wanted to do was a TV show as opposed to a movie? And how did you decide to, like, some of the things that you talk about implementing and the themes that are within the show, how did you decide that you wanted to do that and depart from, you know, the Alex Cross we see in novels or in films? When they, I actually did not pursue this project. They, they approached me.

So Paramount Studios approached me and said, would I consider adapting it? I actually was hesitant because I had seen the movies. And not that I didn't like the movies, but I felt like the movies, they had a black man playing the lead, but they didn't really depict the black experience, the black life experience.

And I really didn't want to do a show with a black lead that wasn't trying to do that. So, you know, after a few rounds of conversations, we actually had a meeting when I was beginning to consider it, but I really wanted to lay out some of the things that I wanted to do. And they would, I wanted them to embrace or otherwise I didn't want to do the project. And the first one was, you know, I wanted to lean into the black experience. And I also wanted to have a full fleshed out black man that had a swagger.

I felt like otherwise, you know, you're just going to have a smart dude with black skin doing that show. And the irony is the books actually reflected black experience far more than what I had seen in the movies. So I thought that I would actually be honoring the spirit of the books even better if I actually start to layer in the black experience. And so we built out, you know, and I told him, you know, this dude, he's going to have, sex appeal he's going to have swagger he's going to engage with the community DC is going to be a character if we do this

and they all embraced it and it's not always like that the studio immediately signed off I talked to Jim Patterson who wrote all the books and he was through and so they they basically just said you know take that we love your vision for this and run with it we hear the term showrunner and I know and Rachel knows but a lot of people listening

don't know. What does a showrunner do? You're the showrunner on cross executive producer, truth be told, Handel God, consulting producer on Wu Tang and American Saga. But showrunner is a big, huge job.

They're not enough black showrunners. They're more now. I know a lot of them. But what does a showrunner do? So I think the best showrunners, in the Hollywood circle, show running is considered to be impossible. It's the actual job title is impossible because you basically have to combine the creative aspect with the managerial aspect, but you are running both sides of it. And it's just not feasible. If you look at that from any other perspective, if you took sports and you said, okay, well, you know,

You're going to take LeBron James, who's going to be playing in the game, but he's also going to be in charge of stadium operations during the game. It's just hard to do both. But it is something that the attempt to do both actually helps the content, because you're taking someone who has started with the seed of an idea and fleshed it out to the point where you have a show that you want to film. And so they have the best understanding of what that show is. they have the best understanding what the vision is and hopefully the ability to communicate that vision. And then you have them in a position where they actually are decision maker and the manager, so like the CEO of that show, if every show was a company, then you have your creative. Let's call it your inventor and then you have your CEO.

And if that's the same person, there are many times where those two things can overlap and that person can make the best decision that both services the business part of it. Are we on budget? Are we on time? And the creative part of it, are we executing the vision? So I think in theory, that's what it is. But you can already imagine,

if I got to go and come up with an idea, get into the room, start brainstorming that idea with all the writers, start laying out the story beats. Then I'm getting scripts that from previous story breaks, I got to read those scripts. I got to give notes. I might be working on the script myself, so I got to write.

We might already be filming, so I got to check in with set. We might already have an episode that's been shot, and now it's being edited. I got to review that. I got to give notes on that. Then I might get a call from a cast member who's having an emergency. I got to deal with that. Then the network might call me and say that they have issues with one of the episodes that needs to be fixed. I got to deal with that.

then somebody might tell me that might call and say a key location that we were supposed to shoot out in two days somehow went away and we got to figure out either how to find a replacement location or actually rewrite the script that's shooting in two days in order to have to put it at a new location. So all that stuff could happen to you as a showrunner

between the hours of 8 and noon. Wow. Please. Wow. I don't think I really did know what a showrunner does. After hearing that, I don't think I quite got it. I think I read that you said this is, you've obviously worked on other things, Van just mentioned them, some of them.

You've said that this is your most memorable work. Why is that? I think I read that. I think for me, it's, every one, especially if you create a show, like I created a hand of God, but even if you just put your heart and soul into a show. And when I sign up to do anything creatively, even if it's to support someone else's

vision, I really do bring everything to the party that I can because it's really demoralizing for me if I show up and just start checking boxes. I tried that once. I was like, oh, I'm just going to coast. You know, this is a basic show. I'm just going to coast. And then, like, within a few days, I can feel all of my inspiration stabbed out of my body. So I always bring everything to it. I would say you're always going to love whatever project you're doing. But it's also, you know, we're on a continuum. And as we've gotten to cross a lot of things that I wanted to do as a showrunner that go beyond what I wanted to do as a storyteller, really, to me, came to fruition with cross in the best way.

I've always been very intent on building a good culture, creative environment. and that is not easy to do in Hollywood. And it takes time and building the ecosystem where you are not just bringing people in who are going to execute your vision, but you're collaborating with them in a way that it expands your vision. And you get high quality at low stress. So for me, that was one of the things that I appreciated the most. Creatively, it was also an amazing experience because, you know, I got a chance to marry a couple of things that I've always loved. Then one is crime.

I've always been somebody from the first time I started reading books. I love the crime genre, the suspense genre, and the thriller genre. And then I got to reflect a lot of my life experience. So I got to pour a lot of what it is for me to be a black man in America. A lot of what it is for me to have kids and be going through, you know, family situations. A lot of what it is to be trying to navigate ambition at a high level in, a society that has a mortal fear of that. I got a chance to really just start ringing a lot of bells that have been sitting there for a long time and finally had the

vehicle to play that. So it was fantastic. And everybody that showed up, they brought more than just their ability and their work ethic. They brought their inspiration. They got invested in it in a very personal way, and I think that's one of the reasons that it did so well. So let's talk about Aldous Hodge real quick. I'm the leader of the Aldous Hodge as Black Panther fan club.

Okay? He's Cross. He was Hawkman. He was in The Invisible Man. Remember that? Yeah, I just thought you said you didn't want anybody to step in. That's not true.

I thought that's what you said. No, no, no, no. I was on the recast, Tachala Banwagon early. Got to keep our heroes going. There's been some talk. I don't know if you've seen the talk, as Cross continues to crush it, that maybe he will be our next Black Panther,

knowing that in the MCU, we're getting another Black Panther that's going to be debuting. What do you think about that? Having worked with him, isn't it time for him to take on one of these big, superhero roles. I mean, he's swollen as hell.

He'd be doing push-ups, jumping over stuff, bench pressing. So what do you think about Aldous Hodge as Black Panther? I, you know, I've talked to Alice a lot, so we have not spoken about this

out loud, actually, almost like we don't want to jinx it, but I 100% agree. I 100% agree. To me, and you know this feeling, you know this feeling, we all know it,

when it's happening is when somebody who's sort of been bubbling for a long time, you've been appreciating them, you've been tracking them, you've been saying, oh, he's always good. Every time I see him, he's good. Or, oh, she always had that little spark as soon as they blow up. You can see when they're on that brink. And then when it happens to the right people, it's so satisfying because you are happy for them. But you've also, it's sort of like you've been waiting for this moment.

And for me, out as Hodge, you know, him stepping into a role like, you know, Tachala would be, you know, really that sort of symbolic shout out, broadcasting to the world that this is his time. And if you watch Cross, you're seeing somebody at the height of their powers. Yep. You're seeing someone who is physically embodying things that most people can't. You're seeing somebody that's exuding charisma, but he's also key. in as such an intellectual level in an impressive way.

And then he taps the emotion. And he hits all of it. And he plays all the notes perfectly. It's just like this great culmination of all his life experience, all his career experience, and his ambition, because you have to really be okay with making yourself vulnerable in order to get to the places he's getting to right now as a performer. And don't forget the sweat. what he had to, you know, put into getting his body and his physique to the place that it is right now.

To me, it's a no-brainer. That's he can serve right now. Throw that dude into Black Panther and you're good for another 10 years. I'm all about seeing more Aldous Hodge on my screen. I call it Aldous. Okay. Well, I'm all about that for the obvious reasons and for what you just said. Speaking of that, season two.

It is officially Aldous, though, by the way. I said, Elvis. We did have that. And nobody, I called him August for about six months before I finally was like, and somebody said, and somebody said,

he never said anything because he's so used to people saying Aldous. And then, it's like, well, how does it actually say? It's Aldous. And I'm like, oh. Damn, it's crazy. Well, speaking of more of him,

you got renewed for season two before the show had even premiered, which is amazing. Congratulations for that. what can you give us? What would you like to see happen? I obviously don't want to give it away, but if you can give us a little something.

A teaser for season two? Yeah. You even know yet? Oh, well, let's call it. I mean, we shot it. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's supposed to be released, like mid-lay. Rachel wants to know if she's going to see Cross

really get deep with any white women. Okay. I'm going to give you, this is going to be, first of all, each season when we decided, I was like, I'm not going to do books from the cross pantheon. I'm going to do my own stories.

So now we approach each season as its own book, and the first season was called Hero Complex. The second season is called Bitter Fruit. And that is, that phrase taken from that quote, revenge is a bitter fruit.

You know what I'm saying? whose juice soures the soul. So that'll give you a little sense of where we're going. There's a little bit of... There's a little count of Monte Cristo in there. I also believe that you can and you should

tap into timely social issues when doing art, especially if you don't know how many bites that the apple you're going to have. So there is a very timely and organic runner that also

a commentary on some of the things going on in our society. And then the last piece, I will tell you this, we're going to see Aldous Hodge in a cowboy hat. There you go. Yes. About time. Yes. Listen, Ben, we appreciate you joining us, brother.

Appreciate all the work. I got to say something. You triggered me with the County Monte Cristo thing because back in the day, me and all my homeboys went to see the guy Pierce, Jim Cavizal Count of Monte Cristo movie is a great movie but I was

bigger at the time fatter guy and my homeboy started calling me the Count of Monte Cristo Oh Your friend group It's ruthless

Yeah you had a sharp little frame group there Yeah There's kind of The knives come out It's like You look down You didn't even know

They Yeah it's like The count of Montecrisco Yeah that would get I had to laugh Ben, thank you for joining us. Everybody go watch, cross on Amazon, excuse me, on Prime Video, right now, Amazon Prime, Prime Video.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Ben, we really appreciate you making the time. We're trying to get this schedule for a long time. I'm glad we got to do, brother. Good to see you. It's great. It's great to finally sit down with you both.

I really appreciate y'all. Hats off to all the work y'all doing. Keep it up and look forward to the next time. Absolutely, bro. I'm looking forward to going to, of a secret meeting. I don't know. I don't know.

Were women there? Yeah, they were women. Okay, okay. There were, there were women. There were men. There were women. It got contingentious, testy, but it was secret. That's all we can tell you.

I love it. I love it. I love this happening behind the house. I think we need to put it on the calendar with, you know, to be when we read, when we come back to that, that secret holiday, you know, because that's also aspirational then in terms of, you know, if we can actually get to a point where we could talk about that, you know, in the light.

For sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll invite me next time. I'll be waiting. Thank you, Ben. Appreciate you joining. Anita Baker might be kicked out. That's it.

No more podcast. Ben was great. Ben was great. Ben's fantastic. No more podcasts. Yeah. Y'all go check out the show if you haven't already. Watch the goddamn show.

Question before we get out here, Rachel. Is the Kendrick Lamar Drake battle officially over? Kendrick said game over. We didn't talk about that, but within the audience, there were lights popping up with messages. He said, game over. He said, turn your TV off, game over. I think that was him saying, I'm putting it to bed.

I'm done. Is it over for Drake? No, Jake's on tour right now with bullet holes and smoke coming out of his. It's like, I just can't. Drake and party next door drop at the end of the week. I, first of all, the Drake party next door, is going to number one. Yeah, I'm sure.

Like, nobody denies. It's going to put out. It's going to sell. I haven't been this interested in a follow-up project from an artist in a very long time. I want to know what this sounds like, but I want to know. Predictions. About how it's going to sound? Yeah, what are your predictions?

Not how it's going to sound, how it's going to do. Oh, it's going to be crazy. It's going to be crazy. First week numbers. First week numbers for Drake. And P&D, I'm going to go 275. Okay. 275.

Which, by the way, Drake is in a weird position because if, in fact, it goes crazy, then, I mean, he's made claims. This is not, he's made claims against people. So on the one side, the success of this would make Drake look like he doesn't need the label. on the other side, the success of it would make Drake look like if it fails or if it doesn't do as well, it's going to make Drake look like the machine was always helping him.

Which, once again, like an R&B Drake mashup, if it doesn't do as well as Drake's solo stuff, that just, that's how it goes sometimes. Sometimes those type of albums sell a little bit less. And that's an option that should be considered, but it won't be. You're right.

For him, it's either going to be this or that. Or for Drake fans, super fans, it's going to be this or that. But there should be the option of his solo stuff. People sometimes appreciate. Most of the times appreciate. If it does anything under 150, I think there's going to be some panic. I think if it does anything under 150, I think it's going to be some panic. I think there's going to be some panic because people might think has Kendrick really took

that much of a chunk out of Drake's fan base. And there's going to be some panic from people saying, does, were UMG, and the rest of these people like cooking the books from Drake, and now they left on him on an island and he's not as big as we thought he was. You think you watched the Super Bowl? I know he did.

Well, I know that his people did. There was video than watching it. Oh. There's video than watching it. So I think that they were. they show that. I mean, somebody took the video of them watching it and then I guess they posted the video. I mean, of course you'd have to watch it.

Honestly, I don't know if I'd have a video. I think the discourse around the Super Bowl and being at their publications like the Daily Mail and different places like that saying that it was so terrible, that probably puts a little bit of a battery in its back. I mean, I think Kendrick and them did exactly what they wanted to do, but who knows? We'll see. But when we, when this comes out and we know how well it did and it's dropping this. Friday, I think that's going to be a huge story for next week in terms of how Drake is going to fare and is faring after the battle, post-battle.

Well, TBD. TBD. Take thing, cast off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathin, Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Hi, guys.