Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Kmele Foster Reports on the Central Park Bird-watching Incident, Plus Skip Bayless Is Put in His Place

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by cohost of 'The Fifth Column' podcast, Kmele Foster, to discuss what he’s learned a year later through his reporting on Amy Cooper and the Central Park bird-watching incident (7:04). Van and Rachel also discuss Governor Andrew Cuomo resigning (2:44), Jenny Taft putting Skip Bayless in his place (52:37), PJ Washington and Brittany Renner's situation (57:48), and Governor Ron DeSantis’s words about masks mandates (01:09:47). Then, they close out the episode with a Thought Warrior mailbag and and Unexpected Ally of the Week (01:14:56). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Kmele Foster Producers: Trudy Joseph and Richie Bozek Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Our learning is on. It is Ivan Latham. And it's me, Rachel Lindsay. Rachel Lynn Lindsay. We are recording a day early and releasing a day early because Rachel Lynn, you got some things to go do. Yep, yep.

Got to go out of town for a wedding. Appreciative to the higher learning fam for accommodating my schedule. Love you. That's a big deal. Rachel. I drew up a couple of notes about Oak Cliff, the show. Why you got my sister texting me about this? She's like, oh my gosh, on the Ponderosa.

People are really excited about this. I told you what to make a movie about. Yeah, Oak Cliff. What should I make a movie about? What are you saying? The coldest winter ever. Oh, you know, we can do that. Like, that's great.

I don't know why that's never even been made into a movie yet. I think the reason why it hasn't been made into a movie is because you probably can't get the money from Hollywood to make the coldest winner ever. You probably can't get the money to make it. That's probably why you haven't seen that, you know? We do a bunch of different movies on slave owners. But when we need to do a movie,

they haven't done a movie. That could be a show. They haven't done a movie on the Haitian Revolution. Haitian Revolution, most successful slave revolt. Slaves took over their country. Slaves took their country. Okay, and I haven't made a movie about the Haitian revolution.

Vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, vid, I just want to go ahead and say from time to time, you're going to hear, you can tell in my voice that I'm not 100%. I have taken four COVID tested at this point, two rapids, two PCRs, I am negative. It's my allergies. They're driving me crazy. I think anybody who's living in L.A. right now knows exactly what I'm talking about. Even my dogs have allergies. You guys.

We have a treat coming up later on in the show. We have one of the hosts of the fifth column podcast and the gentleman who did the now very controversial interview with Amy Cooper on Barry Weiss's honestly podcast, my friend. And, oh, yeah, he's my friend. It's my homeboy. Camille Foster is going to join us today on Higher Learning.

Rach, you're excited about that? I am curious more than anything. Van has talked up, Camille. We've heard a lot about him. We've seen him on Bill Maher. That's how he first came to my attention. So I'm intrigued. I can't wait to hear what old Camille has to say.

Yeah, he'll be here. He'll be able to talk to him. Now, Rachel, there's been a development. We talked about it. We asked for it. And this happened. New York governor, Andrew Aklomo

is out. He has resigned. after the mountain of sexual assault and sexual harassment, let's just say sexual harassment. Sexual harassment, I had assault. He was touching. It's both, yeah. Yeah, after a mountain of those allegations came to light, he has, in fact, resigned.

He said, given the circumstances, the best way I can help now, he's talking about the people of New York, is if I step aside and let the government begin back to government, and therefore that is what I'll do. Because I work for you and doing the right thing, is doing the right thing for you.

He said that in a televised addressed. The lieutenant government, who is a lady, is set to take over. And look, he's gone. And the fallout from it is just beginning. People are now actually starting to come for Chris Cuomo's head. They want Chris Cuomo out of there because during this entire time, you know,

it's been revealed that Chris Cuomo was, in fact, advising his brother on how to best handle that. And for a lot of women and a lot of people who watch CNN, that is a no-go for them. But see, this is where I have an issue with that. What does advising and tell? Advising could have been like, you're wrong and you need to resign. Like what you're doing right now,

you're making a fool of yourself and you need to step aside. Like, you have no idea what these private conversations were. Advise, like that word is a very general word. So I feel like it's too much of a jump to say that advice meant he was supporting him and telling him how to avoid it, it could be the complete opposite. It could be. It could be. But I think Chris Cuomo will be fine. I think he'll weather this. But I think there are a lot of people who, when situations like this happen, they're ready just to excise all of it and, you know, let it drain, get rid of everyone and start anew. And if it seems as

if Chris Cuomo was in any way helping his brother, I can understand where there are a lot of people who will watch the show and not feel quite as trusting towards him as they weren't, as wants to work. See, it more so bothers me that he doesn't report on it. That, that to me, is more of an issue than it is, it's his brother at the end of the day. Like, I just think, and they're not even in the same field. To me, that's a separate issue. Right. But I want you to report what's in the news and what's relevant. Apparently he is contractually, it's in his contract that he has talked about that last time. Right. So it's in his contract. But CNN said that they made an exception because of the extraordinary times

that were going on during the pandemic. They made an exception and they allowed it, but it doesn't seem as if they're willing to make the same exception now that the circumstances surrounding Andrew Cuomo are pretty extraordinary. They could have gotten around that. He could have gone,

he didn't have to come on Chris's show. Chris didn't have to interview him. It could have gone on Don Lemon. He could have gone on Anderson Cooper. There were ways around this. Yeah. So that's really not much else to report there. Andrew Quarman.

has resigned. He maintains, he's defiant towards the end. He has maintained that this was a political hit job and that this was a witch hunt. And now Kathy Hockle, who is also a Democrat, is going to have her chance, her seat in the governor's mansion. And we'll see how things go up there in New York. One thing that the governor was right about is, you know, not just New York, but states all around the union have a lot to deal with in terms of dealing with COVID-19. So we'll see how New York is able to bounce back from this. And then we'll also see what happens to Andrew Cuomo.

Where does Andrew Cuomo go? Like, does Andrew Cuomo go gently into that good night? Or does he do what he's been doing this entire time, which is, you know, go to the mattresses and fight this thing as viciously as he can. It'll be interesting to see what his future is. Yeah, well. Yeah. All right, let's take a break.

On the other side of his break, we're going to come back. And we are going to talk to one of the co-hosts of the 50s, Column podcast, Camille Foster on his very, very spicy interview with Amy Cooper. Check back in with us. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

Trimfaya, Gucalcumabab taken by injection is a prescription medicine. for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trim Faya.

Tap this ad to learn more about Tramfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Okay, thought warriors. We are in for a treat. This has been a long time coming, actually. I've mentioned this name on the podcast a couple of times. I actually went over and did his podcast called the fifth column, which was a big treat.

I did the podcast and everybody was like, these are the types of conversations that we need to have more often. It was very precious. He, like I said, he is the host of the fifth column podcast, one third, if I believe, I think you guys have three hosts over there on the fifth column. And also a gentleman who I really enjoy talking to. We don't typically agree, but we might agree more than people think that we do. But he's in the news right now for being one of the messiest people on earth.

Because we had completely forgot about this Amy Cooper. Christian Cooper nonsense from last summer. We had moved on. She was living in obscurity somewhere in Siberia with no internet and we had completely forgotten about it

but leave it to Camille Foster to dig into this situation and having a lot of people asking questions about it about how right we were, how wrong we were, and about the role that the media played

in this particular situation. So Camille, we appreciate you joining us today on higher learning. man. Appreciate the invitation. And that's a great introduction as well. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. So in case you guys, we talked about it. We talked a little bit about it on the podcast last week. Camille was on the podcast, honestly, with Barry Weiss. And on the particular episode that came out last week, a couple of weeks ago now, was it a couple of weeks ago now? Last week. Last week. They revisited the story of Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper. Of course, you guys remember this story. It was along the

same time that the nation was dealing with its racial reckoning. And it was between two people that were in Central Park and found themselves at odds about decorum, about bird watching, the ramble, all of these things that we did not know that we needed to know. But it was an interaction caught on video. And after the video was released, the nation was on fire about whether or not Amy Cooper, had weaponized her whiteness and weaponized race in order to scare and alert the police about who Christian Cooper was.

I'm sure you guys know this story. I'm not going to rehash the entire thing. We've talked about it here on higher learning. Camille, you decided to take a look at this story, which ended with the, if we're being honest, the firing of Amy Cooper, criminal charges against Amy Cooper, really the she was ostracized from society in a way

and you decided to take a look at it to see whether or not the treatment of Amy Cooper was fair why well the first thing that alerted me to the fact that something odd had gone on here was a couple of weeks ago around the one year anniversary of this whole fiasco I saw an article about Amy having filed a lawsuit against her former employer

and buried in the details of this article is this story about a kid named Jerome Lockett, which I believe the article described him as the 30-something young black man, who in the weeks before Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper met in the ramble and had their dust up. Jerome and Christian Cooper had met in the ramble and had a dust up. And Jerome had actually pushed Christian Cooper. There was some sort of physical altercation that arose. And what really surprised me wasn't just that I was just learning about the fact that that had happened, maybe a couple of of weeks beforehand, but that NBC News knew about it and had talked about, talked to Jerome Lockett, but they never reported on this. And there was just this one line, NBC News interviewed Jerome Lockett around the time of this encounter. And I could not for the life of me figure out why they would have interviewed him, but not published this story because it seemed like a really big deal. And I went and found the legal filing. I ended up reading the correspondence between Jerome Lockett and the NBC News producers, which is in the legal filing. And I went. I went and found the legal filing.

reached out to Amy's lawyer who's representing her in that case and I said, I want to talk to Amy, which interestingly, she hadn't talked to anyone. She hadn't done a serious interview more than, you know, five minutes long with anyone until we sat down and talked. Yeah, I didn't even know what her voice sounded like other than shrieking in Central Park. No, Rachel? Okay. I listened to the whole interview. Okay. And I swear to you, Camille, I went in with an open mind.

And I think my, because you asked us to, right? Like I listened to your podcast. We should say that real quick. We talked about it here and I get a text from Camille. Camille said, hey, van, you guys should really listen to the podcast. Yeah. And then sort of make up your mind. And I hadn't at that point.

I'll be honest. And I don't know if Rachel had. So we both did. Yes. But I also listened to your fifth column podcast before where you were talking about how this interview was coming up. And I was listening to you talk to your co-host and you were saying how like it would, And I'm paraphrasing, you'd be hard pressed for you to listen to this interview and not think about it in a different way.

I know I'm paraphrasing there. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go in here. I'm listening to this. I had high expectation. That's like, you know what? Maybe he's got this wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, Camille.

Yeah, tell me. I found it very frustrating. Okay. For a number of reasons, okay? But I think that I'll start here. Let me ask you this, because in listening to the entire thing and you're uncovering these things that had happened to Amy and her past, the current state of the world with COVID, there's a 911 call where her voice is breaking up to the operator and they can't hear each other. And you're attributing all these things to maybe why she was acting that way. What frustrated me is there seemed to be so much deference given to the things that she was saying and maybe call them excuse.

or her point of view or whatever, but never, did you address this? And I'm asking you, maybe you did. Do you think that race played a part in what happened in the ramble at all? So there's two questions, right? I think there's one sense in which race plays an obvious part in why the story matters so much to us and to the press. It's the reason we know about this story. whether or not race played a part at all in Amy Cooper's interaction with Christian Cooper that day in the park is necessarily speculative.

It is definitely true that at some moment in their interaction, Amy Cooper says to Christian Cooper, before she jumps on the phone, well, if you're not going to stop recording me, I'm going to call the police. I'm going to tell them that an African American man is threatening my life. Now, whether she is saying this descriptively or she is saying this in order to invoke grace and terrify him and try to scare him off is a question that I asked her. And I think her answer there is one that, you know, I'll let stand. And I should say something about that in a moment. But I don't know why Amy said that. She gave me an answer.

And I know that most people have made up their mind about this. Christian Cooper certainly has. From Christian Cooper's perspective, she was knowingly, wittingly digging into this reservoir of hate and contempt in America's background. And she was using that to try to frighten him. But from Amy's perspective, you know, she says that I was a woman alone in the park. I was afraid. And I thought to myself, you know, what am I going to say to this 911 operator? And I think what I probably did was just say out loud what I was thinking I would say when I got on the phone.

I gave a description of him. And I would have said the same thing if it was a white man or a white woman. And it doesn't actually sound that way in the Honestly podcast. There's a, I think, unfortunate edit in the audio. But that is exactly what she said. And actually, if you listened to this past week's fifth column, you'll hear that full response in there. So here's the thing for me.

So I listened to the podcast and there are several things that are that the podcast confronts. it confronts the shrieking nature in which the 911 call appeared on the video, you know, because remember if people remember the video, she's screaming, oh my God, oh my God. I even said here on this very podcast. She's getting progressively more excited. Right. But to be honest with you, if you listen to the podcast, there's an explanation as to why she's doing that.

The 911 operator can't really hear her. It's like they're breaking up. So she's screaming so that she can actually tell the person where she is. tell or describe the scene or whatever. So there are things that were enlightening and listening to it. This is the question I have for you. So I'll come back to why I feel that descriptor

that she uses matters and why people feel the way, feel that way. I definitely think she was trying to scare him. I just don't understand the reason why you would bring that up or say that without, I just don't get that why he has to be an African-American man. in that particular situation. It seems like an extra level of fear

that she was assigning to, as you say, his phenotypic type. An extra level of fear that she was assigning to him. But I guess I'll ask this. When I listened to the podcast, it seemed as if, and we talked about this

because we had a conversation on the phone, that you were dead set on proving that it wasn't racist. So in one breath, you say that you don't know, but it seems by the podcast, you've made a clear determination if I just listen to it intellectually unfold

that race is less of a part of it than we might have perceived. Am I wrong about that? No, listen, I think there's a sense in which that's necessarily true. There's a way that people know this story and the general sensibility that most people have about this story is

Christian Cooper went out into the park. he met a white lady. All he did was ask her to leash her dog and then she went crazy. She just went totally nuts on him. And she said, I'm going to call the police until I'm a black man is threatening my life. The general sense that most people have is that she completely contrived that. And not only did she contrive that, not only do we never see him threaten her life or threaten her at all. Like, we see her say that she's being threatened and he's black. And what I tried to do was give people a sensibility about what happened on either. side of that 40-second clip that we've all seen. And more than that, I tried to uncover things that, for whatever reason, journalists who reported on this story, and again, this happens in New York City. New York City is the journalism capital of the world. New York City has more journalists per square

mile than any place on Earth. And they were all over this story. There were hundreds and hundreds of stories written in the space of a couple of weeks. And nobody bothered to find a lot of the details that I was able to find over the course of a couple months, more than a year and a half removed from the story. And what I discovered was that people had certain things and never published them. People had access to certain things that didn't bother to look at them. And there were even journalists at major publications who got wind of certain things, who spoke to certain people like Jerome Lockett and who decided for whatever reason not to cover this. And that process, that kind of systematic bias or in curiosity, not a conspiracy, but that sort of

systematic bias created a one-sided account. And it's necessarily the case that when I go through and I surface stuff that other people have ignored, it's probably going to muddle the picture in a way that is going to make it less likely that Amy Cooper is the racist caricature that she's been portrayed to be. And, you know, I think it could be, you know, well, this is Camille's bias. We knew he would tell this story. But it could also be, well, you got a one-sided narrative to begin with. You know, if by the end of the podcast with Camille, you're introduced to a couple of things that make you say, huh, well, this is a little more complicated.

I do wonder if she had some justifiable reason to be scared since the guy she was interacting with had been in two physical altercations in the prior months in the same park because he had a habit of confronting. people in the park in a way that he knew would frighten them. I think that is the most frustrating part to me because there's a lot of speculation here. And I think maybe that's why journalists shied away from bringing this to the table because you're talking about him having interactions with other people. Physical interaction where Jerome pushed him down, right? And even in that story, he pursued Jerome, like he was following him. That's what Jerome says.

That's not Amy's story. That's an isolated incident. And it seemed to me that you were putting them on the same page. And you even use the word infer at one point. So there's a lot of you're having to infer what could have happened in that incident. You're speculating what could have happened based on prior incidents that aren't really the same. I mean, Jerome that he lured, I think he used the word lor. He was following him.

That's not with Amy. With Amy, he said the words, which I didn't know until I listened to the podcast. was he said, if you do what you do, I'm going to do what I have to do. Right. She says what. Okay, that's allegedly the threat, right? She says what? Then he immediately shows her what, what is.

It was a dog tree. Well, no. It wasn't following her. That's not really his account. Yeah, his account is a little different than that. The correction just in terms of the timeline. And you're, you are correctly, for the most part, rendering what Christian Cooper's transcript of the defense is that he says, if you're going to do a,

what you want to do. I'm going to do what I want to do and you're not going to like it. And she says in response to that, what? And then he says, come here, puppy. And she says, he's not going to come to you. And then he reaches in his bag for the dog treats. This is his description. And then he starts to beck into the dog again. And in Christian Cooper's transcript, he writes in all caps with, I believe an exclamation point, leave my dog alone. Something to that effect. Like, stop it. Whatever it is at this point, she's concerned. So the interaction is a little It's between the dog and Christian is what I'm trying to say. Like the threat is her dog and Christian.

And she says, and so like if he's threatening, if she perceives those words, you do what you're going to do. I'm going to do what I'm going to do as the threat. Then her response is, I'm going to tell them an African American man is threatening me. She's her, he threatens her. That's her threat. That's why, to piggyback on what Van is saying, it is so hard to separate that because

she responds with those words, which is why people say she weaponized them. And I think that that was hard. I was trying to say, okay, let me be open minded and see this. But those incidents that are brought to the table or him at a meeting for birdwatchers saying how dogs off the leash is a problem. He's obviously passionate about it, but does it escalate to the point of you're able to take the Jerome incident and then say that's exactly what happened to Amy? Amy felt the same thing Jerome felt in that moment. I don't think you can. Right. And I think, I think you're right. At a minimum, there is a bit of sort of detective work that's going on here. But this is an important, important clarification. We were just recounting things from Christian Cooper's

perspective. That's Christian Cooper's transcript. And there are things in there that Amy Cooper agrees with. Yes, he did say, if you're going to do what you want to do, I'm going to do what I want to do. But he didn't say that in like a calm, simple way. And the way he approached me was not a polite, could you please put your dog on a leash? I heard a booming voice from behind me. I turned around. Yeah, I turned around and I was surprised to see, you know, this big guy, like with a helmet, like doing this weird thing.

And she said he made several threats during the course of their interaction. Again, this is her word against his. But what I did with the Jerome Lockett account, and I should say that I didn't, I didn't only have the Jerome Lockett account. I talked to numerous people who had interactions. with, or at least purportedly, had interactions with Christian Cooper. And each of these people gave me very unusually similar accounts of their experiences with Christian Cooper.

And it's worth mentioning that Jerome Lockett's account of what happened in that park with Christian Cooper is something that materialized days after. And actually, a day after is when I believe the first of these emails that Jerome sent, was sent to, like, a national media organization. and the similarities, the parallels are really uncanny, the detail about this helmet that Jerome, not Jerome, but Christian was carrying, that he was kind of wielding in a way that both Amy and many other people have described as somewhat threatening, the yelling, the kind of really hysterical response to people, the picture that it painted for me, and again, I'm a journalist,

and I didn't approach this and say, this is definitively what happened. I said, there's an odd pattern here where there's a man who's particularly concerned about an issue, who's going to the park and who's looking for people who are violating the rules, as he describes it in that transcript, I carry these dog treats just for such intransigence. The suggestion is that you've done this before many times and you do it specifically because you know it makes people uncomfortable. Now, I should, can I say one more thing? Because I don't want, because this sounds like I'm beating up on Christian Cooper. Sure. I don't think Christian Cooper. is a bad dude. I don't think Christian Cooper was going to hurt Amy. It is obvious that those treats

were not poisoned. But I do think that Christian Cooper has been presented in a particular way and that everyone has assumed that his account of events and his demeanor must have been, you know, completely ordinary. And it's one thing to say that Christian Cooper didn't do anything wrong, that he didn't break any laws, that he didn't break any rules. It's another thing entirely to suggest that all he did was ask her to leash her dog because even, by his account, that is not factually accurate. Didn't he say in that meeting, for those listening and haven't listened to the podcast yet, there's a meeting that Christian's attending where he's complaining.

I'm not sure what type of meaning it is. And he's talking about people. Yeah. Thank you. He's talking about people in the dog, in the ramble that have their dogs off leash. He states, correct me if I'm wrong, that he had been attacked by a dog or he had been. So that's something to bring. He been assaulted twice, is what he said.

said by dog owners, not by the dogs. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because what? And maybe he didn't get to this point, but it's also, if we're in the business of inferring things, that maybe he felt feels threatened when dogs are off leash. I'm a person actually who walks my dog off a leash.

And I've had people yell at me multiple times. It's against the law. I've had people yell at me in fear because they've been bitten by a dog or chased by a dog or something like that. And so maybe that. That's also where he was coming from because so he immediately felt threatened when he saw the dog off the leash. I mean, that's something to consider as well. Sure.

That's a possibility. And I don't, I don't discount that there are legitimate reasons for Christian Cooper to be upset. The park has rules. And people are, and if people in New York know that Central Park has off leash hours, like between, I believe, or maybe at least up until 9 a.m., you are allowed to have your dog off leash in most of the park. There are specific areas where you can't, the ramble is one of them. But there are also other things you're not supposed to do in the ramble that people do all the time. And when I was there two weeks ago, I saw a dozen dogs off leash in the space of an hour and a half.

So this happens systematically. And there's a legit, like, policy failure because they don't enforce these rules. Not on Christian Cooper's watch, Camille. Well, yeah. I mean, Christian Cooper essentially became Batman. But, you know, again, I want to emphasize here. Like, the reason I told this story is like a couplefold. One, I do think that I want us to consider the fact that we live in a world where we're going to see these little viral clips and they're going to show people in their worst, lowest moments in some instances.

And we have a choice to make whether or not we're going to participate in the complete excommunication of someone from society and whether or not we're going to be curious about the context that this happened in. And I think that we should be curious because the next time it might be you or me or someone else that we care about and that matters. But then the other aspect of this is just that journalism is changing. there are journalists who see themselves as activists, who see themselves as moral crusaders, and imagine that the specific moral causes that they're reporting on is more important than the truth, than the details, than especially inconvenient facts. And I think this is a clear example of that. Like the fact that you know about Jerome Lockett and you don't report on this because it might suggest that Christian Cooper is perhaps a less than sort of spectacular person in the

that he's not without blemishes. He's the kind of person that goes to the park and manages to get into altercations with some regularity. It's a complicated detail, but it's a fact that matters. And in this particular case, it creates a picture of someone who, you know, maybe Amy Cooper had legitimate reason to be somewhat afraid. And it's possible that Christian Cooper didn't just ask nicely that he did say something that made her afraid because he wanted her to be afraid.

He wanted to get her to comply in order to get her to comply. tried to make her afraid. And that's important. That's a worthwhile detail for journalists to talk about. That's the truth, right? The truth is complicated. It's messy. And that's honestly all I want to get across here. I think we're so used to people who get a story like this and they want you to feel a particular way about both people. And I am telling you that I don't think Amy Cooper is a saint or someone who should be, you know, scorned. And I think the same thing about Christian Cooper. They're just people. just people on a weird-ass day in New York City caught up in the midst of the beginning of this crazy racial reckoning that has just kind of shifted the polarity on a lot of issues. It's interesting.

See, and I'll come to another situation that I drew comparisons to in parallels to, we talked about it on the phone a little later. But I actually think that the Jerome Lockett incident is immaterial to what happened in the ramble. And because here's the thing. So in society, we're going to brush up against one another all the time, right? We're going to brush up against one another on subways. We're going to brush up against one another in boardrooms. We're going to brush up against one another at ball games. All the time, they're going to be interactions where people are going to get their wires crossed, right?

If I get my wires crossed with somebody because van's a little boisterous, Van likes to play too much. Van is one way. That's fine. If our wires are crossed and then my race is brought into it, you've now weaponized something against me that I cannot control.

So even if Christian Cooper is a hypervigilant doggy Batman who is roaming through the ramble looking for looking for trouble, looking to push people, looking to do all of those things, I think it's worth discussing what it means in that situation. And maybe this is a question that Amy Cooper hasn't asked herself, what it means in that situation for her to say, I'm going to tell people that an African-American man is threatening me right now. And we should also say that the point

that she tells him that, and we talked about this as well, I keep saying that, but I just don't want I don't know that you've, I know you've, at the point that she, that she says that, the threat is essentially over because he's recording her. He's not going to record himself assaulting her and then, well, I mean, hey, kids do the darndest things. Yeah, but I, but I, it's his phone. You know, when you're done, you take it with you. I know, but what I'm saying is that in this particular, in this particular, in this particular, in this particular situation, I'm looking at, I'm looking at,

the recording of it as an attempt to document this and in some way diffuse it, right? Now, I think there's a hell of a leap to be made that, you know, this guy has five or six videos on his phone of him beating up off-leash ramblers. I love that to ramble. So to me, the fact that she came, became so hysterical when she was being recorded at the point that the interaction was

in my opinion, the safest because of what's going on. And that's the time that she chose to weaponize race, or that's the point that we see that. Yeah. It's, to me, it seems obvious that she was wielding it as a weapon. She's saying, okay, stop recording me or stop like or. She's not like she made the recording and then it comes out, you know, whatever. Stop recording me or I'm going to tell them this.

that language, whether or not she, that language has to be examined, Camille, because that language is dangerous. It was definitely a threat. It does not make any, we shouldn't mix any, men's words about this. She made a threat. We are. I'm going to get the law, I'm going to get law enforcement involved. The question becomes whether or not when she says an African American man is threatening

my life, there are two, two questions there. Is she saying African-American because it is a descriptive thing and it's true? And this is what she plans to tell the 911 operator when she calls. And does she actually believe that this man is threatening her life? Those are two questions to ask. But there's a third question that also think is important. And again, it's why the rest of the context matters. What circumstance does she think she's in in this moment?

Is she genuinely afraid? Is she genuinely panicked? Is there anything that could explain kind of her state of mind in that moment? And honestly, at that moment in the video, the whole thing is weird. Like she is, when the video starts, she's on the ground and it looks like she's leashing her dog. One would imagine this is the end of an encounter if he's angry and all he wanted was her dog leashed. And suddenly she looks up and as she tells it, I'm being recorded. And I asked her, and again, we talked for three odd hours and the podcast is barely an hour,

is maybe an hour in 15 minutes or something. So you don't hear all of this. But I talked to her about it. And it's odd. Like I said, Amy, you're walking towards him. It's not really what you would expect someone to do if they're afraid. And she kind of talks about this as, you know, I don't really know. You know, I think at that point, it's kind of a fight or flight sort of circumstance.

And it's, you know, is that. She looks unhinged. She's janking the dog around. Exactly. She doesn't look well. And look, she, that dog is. very important to her. She still has her dog, Henry. She cares about that dog. She lives a lot of her life around that animal's needs. And I think in many respects, when I watch that video over and

over again, it's not clear to me that the dog isn't in many respects kind of responding to her energy as opposed to actually being, you know, choked because the dog isn't all fours being dragged around, you know, off the ground. It's a little weirder than that. But I think, again, it's just one has to take the rest of the context into account. And we have to just acknowledge it is entirely possible that Amy, and I know the two of you feel that you know definitively that Amy was weaponizing her race in that context. I am telling you that I don't know either way. And I'm reserving judgment on that point. And I'm saying that it's necessarily true that we have to speculate about what's going on in her mind. We at least have to acknowledge that's what's happening.

And it's okay to do that. It's okay to sort of draw a reasonable conclusion. about that in your mind. But so far as I can tell, it seems to me that there's a lot more going on. If in fact, she believed she was under threat and she thought a man was about to do something to her, if the details were slightly different, there's a universe where, in a circumstance like that, woman alone in the park approached by a large man threatened, she gouges his eyes like, everyone would applaud him. I mean, her, excuse me, for having done so. That's a slightly different circumstance, right? But it's worth taking into account. even if I was listening to this and I said, you know what?

I'm starting to understand that there was more to the story. And, you know, like I'm listening to the things that Amy has brought to the table and I'm hearing her side. And I'm like, okay, okay, that makes sense. And then you get to the end of the podcast. And you ask Amy, what would she say? You know, you, this had to shock you. This is bad, Camille. This had to shock you.

Like, remember we talked about this, this is bad. A full gas. I said, you say, what would you say to Christian Cooper? Yeah. And she says, you scared me. You scared me. That's what I was scared. You scared me.

Yeah. You even, I really think, and please tell me, I don't want to infer, but you sounded taken a back. I was surprised. Yeah. I didn't not expect that. Yeah. Can you?

And why? Why did you not expect that? What did you expect her to say? because there's a sense in which this story, again, I approached this story the way everyone else did. I saw a 40-second video. I saw her getting increasingly hysterical. It was very hard for me to look at this story and not say, oh, wow, cringe. And even when I discovered the Facebook post of Christian Cooper and the fact that he was a bit strange, the way I characterized this when we talked about it on our podcast a year ago was, I think you've got two Karens who met each other in the park that day.

Like one of them was like snitching and Togamon, I'm going to do. something to you if you don't put your dog on a leash. And the other one is like, I'm going to call the police and get him involved. And they both should have just went home is what I said. And I feel a bit differently about that now. At a minimum, I feel like I should probably just have more grace when I'm approaching and thinking about circumstances like this for all parties involved. But when she said, you scared me, it's clear that she's after a year and more has pivoted

to a place where it's no longer about making apologies. and trying to sort of satiate the anger that exists in the public when it comes to this story. It's more about embracing what she believes to be true about the circumstance that she went out of her house. She went to go walk her dog. She didn't want to start a fight with anybody. She didn't knowingly do anything racist from her standpoint. And Christian Cooper frightened her that day. And there's a sense in which Christian Cooper did leave his house thinking that if I find somebody who has their dog off leash,

I'm going to do something that at a minimum makes them very uncomfortable and makes them leash their dog because they're uncomfortable. And, you know, you scared me. It seems like a fair thing. That doesn't necessarily mean that later on in the conversation, you don't also get to I'm sorry or I wish this hadn't happened. But she didn't tell me that that's what she would say. But I would love to think that there is an opportunity at some point where they will meet

and they will talk and they will go through these things. But she starts out the conversation. like that, that's not very, even though she said, I think that will open up the door. No, it won't, Amy. That's not the place to start. She's, for she's still, it still seems to be that she's framing the conversation around her fear and what she thought was going to happen. I'll say something else about Amy Cooper real quick.

Amy Cooper also has situations with the people that she lived around that think that Amy Cooper, she's had some issues with people asking her leash the dog before. And also, she apparently got into some kind of shouting match with her door man. she was threatening to have the doorman fired. So, I mean, your situation about their being, and to be completely honest with you, none of that stuff about her was explored on the podcast.

It was not, no. Right. So what we did in the podcast is that we dug into all of the things that might be problematic or, I wouldn't say incendiary, confrontational about Christian Cooper's past, and we discussed them. Did you feel like Amy Cooper's past had been sufficiently disqualified?

discussed, or did you feel like it was immaterial to what you were trying to say with Barry Weiss? Yeah, I think two things. One, I definitely think it's the case that most of those things have been discussed at length and explored in various ways. And the second thing is that when it comes to the Christian Cooper context that we added, all of that stuff is happening in the same Park with the same kind of people in virtually identical circumstances. And it's uniquely relevant context. It's not like a dispute that Christian Cooper had with his dormant or a dispute that Christian Cooper had with someone about birds, you know, at the grocery store in some of their

context. This is this is uniquely relevant context involving Christian Cooper and his particular concern about watching birds in Central Park and specifically watching birds in the ramble and encountering dog owners in the ramble who are doing what he believe what what is the wrong thing there having your dog off leash. I would just say though, so would a so would a request by someone for Amy Cooper to leash her dog. I think that's, I think that's a fair point to make. But I also think that again, one of those things has been explored.

One of those things has been reported on in numerous publications. And really, I just think this is so important. Nobody reported on this. Jerome Lockett's name did not appear in a national news publication until this May. That's crazy. They knew about it in some instances from last May. And I can confirm that there are multiple news organizations who knew about this from last May and didn't publish it. Whatever else you think about me or Amy Cooper or the fact that I'm talking about this story,

that should disturb anyone who is a conscious. thoughtful member of the public because the national media organizations that you depend upon to tell you the truth are shading that truth by excluding certain information. It is almost uniformly true that any kinds of details that could have been remotely exculpatory for Amy Cooper were omitted from media narratives for various reasons. And that should disturb us. We should be people who are curious about the context and curious about the truth, even when it's inconvenient for us. I mean, I try to do that uniformly, which is the reason why this week, you know, Black Twitter is upset with me because I did this story. A month ago, a month ago,

conservative Twitter was upset with me because I published a piece in the New York Times saying that those critical race theory bands that they want to pass are not just a bad idea. They are dangerous and stupid. Yeah. Rachel, Rachel likes that. I want to, you know what? I I'm going to make Rachel happy. I'm going to save the Trayvon Martin corollary. But you guys can connect the dots if you think about these two situations. Yes. I'm going to save the Trayvon Martin corollary for another one.

It's a very good point. Make it at some point because people need to understand the relationship between these stories. I say so Trayvon Martin is walking through his father's neighborhood. And we're talking about an American story of one, hypervigilance, and two, the way these things come out at the other. they're in, right? So Trayvon Martin is walking through his father's neighborhood. There's a guy who thinks for some reason that he is the specter or the fucking controller. He's the neighborhood watch guy of the neighborhood.

He runs up on Trayvon Martin. This is a night. It's his night. There's some rain out there. He gets out. He's armed. He approaches Trayvon Martin. Words are exchanged.

A fight happens. Trayvon gets the better of this guy. the guy pulls out of gun, kills him. That becomes an entire cautionary tale of how Trayvon Martin handled that wrong. Hey, just walk away. You handled this.

You did this. You did that. The stand your ground law says, hey, at the moment that you assault him, he could pull out of his gun and kill you, even though he provoked the exchange. In this particular situation, we have almost the opposite, right?

We have, at this point, the black man is the one that provoked the whole interaction, right? The black man is the one, if we're listening to and you know, absorbing all of your information. The black man promote the interaction. The white woman, in

my opinion, acted improperly by invoking race. Yet, we're coming back and trying to talk to everybody about what might be wrong with Christian Cooper. Whereas in the other situation,

it seemed like the conversation turned to what might be wrong with Trayvon Martin. The Wright made a point with what Trayvon Martin was, who he was. Don't show him in the show a picture of Trayvon Martin with a hoodie with golds on. This was a guy who had violence brimming inside of him and was just waiting for the moment that somebody ticked him off enough for him to whoop somebody's ass. And it just seems like to me sometimes, and by the way, in that situation, Trayvon Martin wasn't doing anything wrong.

Amy Cooper was actually breaking the rules of the park. I'm not with that caring shit. You have your dog off the leash. Parking handicapped spots. Do all of that stuff. I don't give a fuck. That's not somebody else's job. I don't even want to be in charge of making people's vacation schedules and stuff like that.

Like I turned down manager positions at TMZ. I don't want to have any authority whatsoever. I hate it. But in that particular situation, when I think about those two things and I connect them, both, I'll say, both intellectually and emotionally, it frustrates me. If I'm being honest, it frustrates me, and this is where it happens, because you're black. I'm not going to be honest. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to lie. We have this conversation about your place and how you see race. And I'm thinking, why, command?

that. Why? Like, why? Like, why? Like, why in this situation? Why are we doing black flips to prove that something that had racism injected into it was not racist? And I think that I bring that emotionally into it. I'm serious. And so, and so that's, I think if I, and we understand that now. We've talked about this going on for 45 minutes. I think everybody who's listening to this understands why that's important to you. But if I was telling you the reaction of Black Twitter, I'm sure you understand that's what the reaction is about. Yeah. And my thing is if the supposition about the importance of race in this story is the reason why journalists became incurious and stopped asking good questions about what happened here and who these people are, that is worth taking into consideration because it is almost certainly happening in other contexts. I think it happened in that Trayvon Martin story as well.

I think it happened in the Mike Brown story. I think it happens in narratives that we encounter all the time. And as a result, we end up missing the thread in important ways. In this particular case, I think we probably castigated Amy Cooper in a way that was almost certainly too severe. But in other contexts, like with the Trayvon Martin thing, you get these distinct narratives. Like one is for conservatives and one is for liberals and we can't like agree on anything. And a circumstance that really.

is, I think, an unfortunate tragedy. Like, whoever Trayvon Martin was, right? He's a young man whose entire life was ahead of him. He should not have died in that neighborhood that day. This was a tragedy, right? And George Zimmerman may have been legally justified to fire his gun, but there's something reckless and thoughtless that is happening when a man is kind of, again, against the guidance of authorities, like pursuing this kid down the street.

and the kid takes notice of him and tries to defend himself. Like, it's a tragedy. I think in much the same way, and I don't want to open up a Pandora's box here or do a French goodbye, but the Brianna Taylor story, I think, is similarly complicated and tragic. There is actually a great report

by a friend of mine, Rakhmini, who is at the New York Times on the Brianna Taylor story that folks should find and read because it gives you the complex reality of what happened there. The fact that there was so much going on. And unfortunately, it's just become like another talisman of the sense that, you know,

black life is completely devalued by society. So police officers just kill them willy-nilly. There's actually a lot of complicated policy failures there and a lot of weird social dynamics that we have to explore if we're going to meaningfully address problems as opposed to just, you know, shout at each other all the time. So for me, the reason to to complicate narratives and to to try and get people to think about something other than race, even when it seems like race is the most important thing, is because in my experience, when it comes to fixing real problems,

generally speaking, race isn't the most important thing. And that's, and so, look at Rachel's face. And so, and so we're going to do a whole another podcast because we're, this is a one-issue podcast. We would talk about the podcast, talk about the podcast, but you guys, there's so much to talk about with them.

Oh, so much. When I tell you so much to talk about, there's so much to talk about, there's his views on race, his views on whether or not, just go ahead and tell the people, Camille, are you black? No, neither are you.

None of y'all are you. What are you? I'm a human being. Oh, Camille. I'm a man. I'm a father. I'm a brother. This is my husband.

You can be all those things. I tell you can be all those. So you don't check boxes? Oh my gosh. No, I certainly don't. I really wanted to talk to you about your whole Simone Biles take. I have so many questions.

I actually have a different take on Simone Biles now than the one I said on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I had what you had on the podcast. I had a list. Okay, bring it back. We work blue on the podcast. We work blue.

Not everything there should be taken literally. I mean, come on. A little bit of great stuff. That's what I always say. I was just joking around. I had a bad night of a laugh back. I didn't laugh. That's what you all.

I said, fine. You recorded that the day after. The day after. I can't help if it doesn't age well. Can I just say what I'm frustrated with? You're so pleasant. I am. I kind of like want to like, want to like,

oh, like get at you. You can still hate me. You can still hate me. You're a night. No, I don't hate you. But you're a nice guy. I enjoyed the conversation. I try.

Can I say something though? I'll say something. And I'm not. going to drive into a, I'm not going to make it a telethon about how important it is. I'm not introduced, but there's an authenticity to, there's a certain rhythm that a conversation has when someone authentically believes what they're, what they're believing and they're not doing it, restricts, whatever. I completely, not only do I disagree with the I'm not black thing, it pisses me off a little bit, but I can tell he means it. So like for me, it's not,

it's not just being said, hey, police brutality is a myth and all of that stuff. It's like, it's, there's, It's real. So we can actually talk about it. Maybe we can get to a middle ground, or maybe we can just passionately disagree over wine for whatever, for whatever time we're in each other's presence. But I appreciate you.

I think that you're wrong about this stuff. But I appreciate you. And thank you for joining us today on higher learning. Camille Foster. Tell them what they can check you out, bro. You can find us at the fifth columns at Wee the Fifth on Twitter and WeedThefifth.com. And also check out Freethink.

I am the co-founder of that fine organization, although most of the times in public I'm being a hell of a lot more controversial than we are at Freethink. So, but Freethink.com. All right, my brother. I appreciate you joining us, man. Thank you both. Appreciate it. Thank you. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million. miles away. Tremfaya, Gucalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy,

and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphaya,

including important safety information. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort.

All right, do you like Skip Bayless? I like that he's a Cowboys fan. You like that he's a Cowboys fan? And it stops there. So you like that, it stops there. You like that he's a Cowboys fan. Okay, he got put in this place. Skip Bayliss got put in this place.

You loved it. He commented on Mike McCarthy's weight, and his co-host, Jenny Taft, did not like this and she got at Skippity Skip Bayliss in one of the best ways I've seen in a long time. Let's play the entire thing. Is everyone who's a good coach as fit as you, Skip? I don't think that's a fair shot whatsoever. I wouldn't want, I said it was a personal preference.

I wouldn't want him to be my head coach that have not had the perfect ideal physique, including my college coach. So I don't think that's a fair shot. Okay. And I'm allowed to have an opinion, Skip. I am allowed to say whatever I want to say on this show. As you do too. We're doing us.

We'll join us and we'll react to Westbrook's comment. And maybe I have more to say next. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that was amazing. Now she's going to be a folk hero. She deserves it. She stepped up.

Let me ask you this. What Skip Baylor's wrong in his assessment of Mike McCarthy? Is it unfair for Skip Bayliss to say that Mike McCarthy's weight in some way makes him less qualified to motivate highly trained professional? athletes. What do you think about that idea? It's not that it's unfair. It's just stupid. It's like there are a lot of overweight coaches. And for the, well, there are. I mean, even for the Cowboys, there have been some.

So it's like just to the fact that the coach has to be in a certain shape for him to be able to motivate and coach his players to success. It's just a weird, odd take. Was it a slow newsday in sports? I'm not quite sure. I know we talked about this on the show that sports you know, not just sports broadcasters, but just on TV, especially during a debate show, you're always trying to have an interesting take. This wasn't it for Skip. I'm not quite understanding why he decided to go there, but I do want to say about Jenning. What I love so much about this is that when you sit in that seat, you don't really get to have an opinion.

You're there to just divvy up the topic, ask the question, move the show to commercial. I've sat in that seat before on first take. You really don't get the opportunity. to shine. And a lot of times people think you're just there as a woman, as a pretty face, to let the men do the heavy lifting. And I loved in that moment that you saw that frustration that comes from that role where she said, you know what, I've had enough. I actually do have something to say Skip. And you could tell that that was like spilling over. That wasn't a first time she's thought that. That wasn't the first time she's felt that way. But today she said, I have time.

I've had enough. And she said, you know what, I'm actually allowed to have an opinion. And what's wild is, Skip was kind of like, no. No. Actually, Jannie, that's not true. Right. And I love she stood up for herself. And Shannon's over here talking about we're a team. And Skip goes, no.

No. We're not. What's going to happen is Jenny's going to catapult her career at this point. She's going to get her own show because Skip's not going to want her to sit in that seat anymore. He's going to want somebody. Oh, whoa, whoa. You think that Skip Bayless is going to get her ex out of the spot over the same? It's not going to come.

That is not a one-off. I'm telling you right, and that would like, when you start, when it comes to the public light, it's like when couples fight in public, right? They're fighting in public. They're fighting in private as well.

That what we saw, that's not a one-time thing. It just spilled over to where she had had enough. Will this happen tomorrow, next week, next month? No, but eventually she's going to go to another show and another person's going to sit in that seat. Watch.

I mean, Joy ended up leaving so she could have more. of a voice and show off how great she is as a journalist on television. She's fantastic. Right. So eventually, I think Jenny at this point has outgrown that seat. And they really need to start changing that and letting the person who's in that seat speak a little bit more. Now, do they?

Not a spot filler. Do they? Seriously. Because the reason why I say that is, well, I mean, I'm trying to think because Jay Crawford used to host first take. And he did get his opinions in there a little bit more. And maybe that is. and Will Kane used to do it when he used to host

he always had opinions. So I guess what I'm saying is you know shows like that are typically about the two people sitting in the chair. But not when a man sits in the middle seat. You got a point. Note the difference.

And you've groomed an audience that expects that from you. So like the audience is so rude to Molly Karen Rose. If Molly starts speaking out, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Why does Molly have an opinion? because that's the product that you've given to this audience

and that's what they've come to expect. Two men debating one another. They don't want to hear from Molly. What are you doing, Molly? Molly's in that seat for a reason. She's qualified to be there. She's a long history of working in sports. She's not just there to sit there, shut up,

and move the conversation. But that's what they've given to people. And so I do think we need to see more of. When Carrie sat in that seat, she talked more. Yeah, well said. Well said. Well said. Well said.

Another story from the world of sports. Have you seen this? between Charlotte Hornets player, PJ Washington, and Brittany Renner. Have you seen this? Did I? What are your thoughts? Okay, so this was going on.

So Brittany Renner, shout out to Britney Renner. Also known as, what is it, what's she also known as Bundles of Brittany? Bundle of Brittany, Bundles. Bundle of Brittany, Dallas. Because she's popular on, is she from Dallas? She's from Dallas. She's very popular on social media.

Very popular on social media. You might know her as Bundle of Brittany. It's been very open about her life navigating the worlds of social media and celebrity. She wrote a book. And I think the name of the book was Judge Discover. And the book talks about some of the guys that she's dated, some of the situations she's found herself in. But the book, more to the point, is really about the awakening that she had to come to, to understand who she was and stuff. But Brittany has been connected to a lot of high-profile guys, right?

And she's very out there on social media, or at least she was before. She was a fitness model, so she would show her body on social media. She would twerk, you know, different things. People had an opinion about Britney. She found love with a basketball player, PJ Washington. You're putting that in quotations. They had a kid. They had a baby.

Brittany actually has been off the scene since she's been in her relationship with PJ Washington. You haven't seen Britney that much. and certainly since their kid has been born. Something that's happened recently to where it's obvious that this couple has broken up. Yes. He had a couple of tweets, a couple of, I think it was last week or two weeks ago or something like that. It seemed like they were going back and forth. And right when it happened, people came for Britney Renner.

And now that there's a video that came out where in the video, Brittany Renner is, I guess, actually, you know what? Play the video. So if y'all really want to try to come up off a check off a man, you could just fucking athlete. They're really done. That is Brittany Renner basically talking about getting pregnant for an athlete. This is some years ago.

There's jokes going on on Twitter that she's going to get $200,000 a month from PJ Washington. The jokes are he signed her to a, she signed him to a, an 18 year contract for $200,000 a month. I can tell you right now, there's no $200,000 a month. I know this for certain. There's no $200,000. How much is it?

I don't know. It's all brand new. It's all completely brand new. Brittany was trending today on Twitter. I'm going to ask you a question, Rachel. People don't know the reason why these two broke up yet. They have no clue. They have nothing.

They have no idea what's going on. Is it fair that she's taking the brunt of this, even though people have no idea like what really happened between Brittany and PJ? Is it fair? No. But it's human nature to speculate, right? And so when you take the video that we just heard, when you take a book,

when you take how you follow her on social media, what she's been very open and honest about, it does seem like she got exactly what she wanted. So why does she need him? She got the check. She will get a check. It might not be for $200,000. She'll get a check.

She has the child. She no longer needs him. So I can see why people are inferring that. But doesn't, is it fair? No. Right. You can see why people, is that something, is that, do you infer that?

Do I think that that's why they broke up? That she, do you, do you, do you, Do you think she, her goal was to trap PJ Washington with a baby, get a baby? I think that was her initial goal, right? Really? Yes, she's been very honest that that is what she wants. She says, why would I go, why would I do this, like work and get a check like this when I can just date an athlete and get, and have a baby and get a check?

You realize? You realize, though, that she's been connected to athletes who are way richer than PJ Washington. And maybe they were smarter than PJ Washington in this scenario. Maybe they got what they wanted from her and she didn't get her ultimate goal. Who's to say she didn't try? What I'm saying is to Brittany's credit, maybe she initially, not credit, but maybe she initially went in saying this is what I plan to get out of it. But maybe she fell in love in the process.

Who's to say? We don't know. You know, people go in. You've never heard of people where they go into a situation where they might, be dating this person for this reason and they end up actually. She's all that. She's all that, right? You're dating.

And she ends up actually saying, you know what? This person's actually great. We don't know that. But initially, I absolutely think she went in for the check. 100%. But do you realize that PJ Washington isn't like a rich basketball player? He's like a, he's not like a, he's not like a, he's not, he's not, she's 29. Even worse.

And he's 23, I think. She's 29. Being a person who has friends of better bops, okay? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You're going straight up call her a bop house, what you're saying. Okay. She admits it. My gosh, I'm not saying anything.

The girl's already said about herself. And I'm not judging her. You want to ask me, do I have... You're not judging it. You just called her a name. That's what people call. Some will call her a grouping. But if you're going to wear that proud,

if you're going to pursue an... athlete or rapper. That is what groupies and bobs do. But I'm not saying she's going to, she's wrong for that. That's the lifestyle that she's chosen for herself. Kudos to you. I just said I got friends that are like that.

And I know that in that lifestyle, 29 is just a little too old for that, okay? Because they're looking at the next young thing. Okay, because remember I have friends. 29 is too old. You. 29 is getting towards the end of it.

No, not now. Not with Instagram. Bernice Burgos is like 65 years old. She's a unicorn. She's a unicorn. She just literally got with something. I'm saying, but I'm telling you that Instagram has pushed the age. Instagram has pushed the age.

I'm out here in real lifetime, not just DM and somebody and liking them on Instagram. I'm telling you 29 is getting a little, you're out of it a little bit. You're on the edge. Right. As she has said, she's been through and been linked to multiple people, okay? Now she had to go down to this 18-year-old or they was 18 when they were. they met. Maybe he's older now. I'm not quite sure his age. My point being is, I think she initially went in whatever it is, he makes more money than she does. Whatever it is, if she has a child,

she's set for 18 years. So, as she herself has said that that was, why would she do this when she can do exactly what we just saw her do? Now, did she maybe fall in love with him? Sure. Maybe he's the one who broke up with her. Maybe his people were clowning him about her past. Maybe people were saying, hey, you're stupid. This is the type of person she is and he broke up with her. Or maybe he was misbehaving. Or maybe he was misbehaving. Right.

Yeah. I don't, I'm not, I'm not going to speculate as to why they broke up. But I really, I would put money on that she initially got with him because of who he is. Because of who he is now. I think, if memory serves me correct, when they got together, he was still in college. Kentucky? Is that where you went? He went to Kentucky. When they got together, he was still in college. He was still in college. That is a true bop.

Oh, wow. See, hold on, Rachel, can I? Let me tell you. Let me tell you. That is a true because she invested in it. That's actually smart. She, like, worked it, right? She didn't say I'm going to go meet him at a party. I'm actually giving her, she worked it.

said I'm going to get him when he's still impressionable, when he's 17, maybe 18, sometimes they come in early. Yes. Rachel, do you have an issue with a certain kind of woman? No. I just said these people are my friends, but why do you think that it's so, why do you think it's wrong for me to call them what they refer to themselves as? Maybe they don't title themselves that, but if you look up a definition of what it is,

that's exactly what they just said they do. So why am I wrong for saying that? Because I think that there's a negative connotation to it. No, it's not. And an implicit value judgment that goes along. Rachel, come on now. I just said, I know those people. I know the girls who used to go to the hotels

where athletes would stay when they came in town, hang out in the bathroom, change clothes, hang out in the lobby and the restaurants just so they could cross past with these people. These are my friends. Can I tell you that, like, do you think that these women would want to? go to the game with them.

Do you think that these women will want to be called bops? Do you think if you called them a bop, then that they would be like, oh, that's what I am. Like, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, why am I wrong for saying that's what a groupie does? Like, why does that have to be wrong? Because I think that, I think that some of those. I didn't say they were a ho. If I said a hoe, now that's judgmental. Like to me, it's the same thing.

I don't think groupies are hos. Oh my gosh. I know girls who are groupies, uh-uh. I know girls who are groupies who don't sleep with men all the time. I know. I'm not saying if they haven't. There's a different connotation. Ho is totally worse than groupie.

What I'm saying is... Hose don't get anything but sex. Well, to... To me, though, I think that all of these terms, hoe, groupie, bop, all of them, I think that they're dripping with patriarchy and come from a place where we wanted to define a certain woman based upon who she sleeps with.

But Bob doesn't mean that you have to sleep, right? You might get something not sleep. What if I told you Rachel's bopped a time or two in her life? Now does it sound as negative? No, I mean, no. I tell you one thing, though, if I'm out somewhere and, you know, I'm talking to some guys and they went to UT or something like that

and they say, hey, I know Rachel, man, Rachel used to be a bop. I'm gonna be like, yo, motherfucker, you crazy? you're going to talk to well whatever but I'm saying if they said that to me I'd be like

are you out of your fucking mind talking about her like that to me right before my face I'll smack the shit out you nigga I'm getting mad now just thinking about it yeah so what I'm saying but I also don't profess

that that's the lifestyle that I live Britney wears it loud and proud and there's no shame in that good for her I actually think it's commendable that if that's the lifestyle you want to live

that you're like this is who I am am. I think that takes a lot of courage because a lot of people like to hide that. So I have no problems with Britney. I'm not saying you have a problem. This has nothing to do specifically. And it's not negative. No, I'm just saying I have no problem with people who that's what they are and they embrace it.

We've touched on this situation before. And you always try to make it bad for me. I'm not true. You're saying you're calling that. Bob, bird, all of this stuff. You're calling people name. The only person I called a bird was Drea. Let's take a break.

The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh,

juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, market peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new three-es-a-oldeat-a-chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with the yellow sale sign storewide and everyday low prices

on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. All right. Governor Ron DeSantis is on a mission to get rid of masks. He was against the mask mandate there for Florida.

and the school board down there, school board members from all over the state, have said we are going to go with the mask mandate anyway, and now Governor Ron DeSantis has doubled down. He has said that if any schools go with the mass mandate, although he signed the executive order prohibiting mass mandates, he says he's going to withhold the salaries of superintendents and school board members who defy his executive order prohibiting

mask mandates. He is so stuck on not having the mask mandate that he is going to hit people in their pockets if they break with him and do it anyway. The CDC has said, Dr. Fauci has said, people all over the world has said that one of the most important things to fighting COVID-19, which is ravaging through the state of Florida right now. Terrible numbers right now is the wearing of masks. But of course, Governor DeSantis, who has, his eye on a greater prize probably in 2024, does not want to be connected to mask mandates of any kind.

Rachel. Yeah. I saw a tweet today that said Governor Ron DeSantis' kids go to a private school that requires you wear your mask. And he continues to send his kids to that school. Yet you are having this executive order where you are prohibiting people from having mask mandates.

You're eliminating it. It's strictly political purposes. And if you're in the state of Florida, you can vote to Florida like I can. And you're not seeing your eyes aren't open to what he's doing and that this is all politically based. He does not care necessarily about it's not about you do what you want to do. It's not about, you know, like the freedom to live your life mask free. His children, if he was that serious about mask mandates, would remove his children from the school that they go to, if that's true. I didn't research this.

I just saw that tweet today. So it's about Ted Cruz as well, who's on the same path that Governor Ronda Santos is. It's just a joke at this point. He's trying so hard. You can clearly see that the purpose behind it is all political. And it's sickening to me that these politicians continue to protect themselves, continue to protect their families, but yet want to promote these unsafe and unhealthy lifestyles just so they can get your vote in 2024. Yeah, so you're absolutely right. He wants to be the president.

He thinks that he can take over the mantle of head idiot of the cult wing of the Republican Party. And so what he's really trying to do is build up a reputation for not capitulating and owning the lips. And so he doesn't want He doesn't want Any mass mandates because

You know, that's something that amongst people Who don't believe in science Can come back to bite you in the ass I want people to understand what's happening And we're not going to spend too much time on this People are going to die because of this I hope that people understand As much joking as we do about COVID and stuff like that

This is real And we're talking about politicians Across the country We saw this even going back to of the early days of the pandemic that don't have the intestinal fortitude anymore to to do what's best

for the lung capacity of their constituents. We're talking about keeping people safe, which is supposed to be the job of the American government. Now, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have very much faith in that. Remember, live through Hurricane Katrina, so I know how this goes. But what I would tell people to do

is people on both sides of this, right? Look at who cares about who is breathing and who is living. A mask mandate, this is even different than the vaccine. The vaccine is something that obviously some people have big problems with. Obviously, we don't have problems with vaccine mandates here on higher learning, but a lot of people do and they feel a certain way. That's something that you have to put in your body. This is an article of clothing

that you wear to stop the spread of a disease. What's controversial about it? To politicize this right now shows the hugest the hugest neglect for human life that I can imagine. It's just, it's disgusting. Shame on you, DeSantis. And I hope the people of Florida

do the right thing when he's up for re-election. I hope the people of America do the right thing if in fact he does run for president. Elections have consequences. It's going to have a different guy down there. I just want to say what you just said

that is so important about people are going to die from this. But guess who won't? Ron DeSantis. And his family. He's protect. protecting them, but he's not protecting you. Very true.

Very true. All right. Let's do it. It's time. All right. You know, Trudy's back. Trudy. A lot of times, Trudy, you've been, you've been good at this, but a lot of times you come in late.

And we got to do this. We've got to get the show on the road. Okay, so Trudy, drop it. Drop it. Play the song. Mail back time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh.

It's mailback time. Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. Okay, it's time for the mailback. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Hurry up, Trudy. Come on.

Melback, Mailback, Mad back. Happy to have you back, Trudy. We love you. Mailback, do it. Do it. Now, Melbaugh, ask the questions. Oh, you're so annoying. Okay, this is from Valerie Lay.

If you could cast any actor to play your partner in your biopic, who would it be? Uh, yeah. Who would you? Nicole Bihari. No, not her. Oh, I was going to say that was a good one. No, no. Need to get the dark tones in there.

Maybe Issa Ray. That's a good one. Yeah. What about you? I'm going to say, I'm trying to find like age appropriate. Maybe. there's a guy and I cannot think of his name. He was in a Tyler Perry movie.

I could do bad all by myself. What was that? What was his name? Lance Gross. Oh, no. You're talking about he's got to be white. So. He's got to be Latino.

I could be Latino. I could do bad all by myself. What about Kirk Acevedo? Adam Rodriguez is his name? Oh, yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, you like, you like him. You like Adam Harvey. I can tell. No, I'm just thinking it's Taraji. It's him.

I'm like, okay, this works. Okay. That's why I knew his name. Next question. This is from Jana Patel. And this question is for Van. Which Marvel hero or villain do you think Rachel most embodies? Okay.

I won't even know who they are. Villain. Black Widow? Black Widow is the human. It's easy. Okay. She's the Black Widow. Just ask Chris Harrison.

Black Widow, crawls in, takes you out, and gets out. Black Widow is easily the hero. Villain. See, Marvel doesn't have great female villains, so I will just go with villains. It's harder. Oh, I know who. You know what? I'm not going to go with a female villain.

I'm not going to go with the female villain. I'm not going to go with the female villain. Okay. Villain, villain, which villain would be racial? So we need somebody who is headstrong, all-powerful, has multiple powers, but is out just to dominate. The Supreme Intelligence from a Captain Marvel, played by Annette Biddy. Yeah.

Yeah. The Cree Supreme Intelligence. Yeah, that's who you are. You know everything. You try to tell people who they really are. You call them names. All of that stuff. I'm a know it all.

I'm lossy. Yeah. Yeah. Just bring intelligence. Yeah. That's what it is. All right. Next question.

This is from Donald Bullock. Tell a story of a time you went full Karen. It's never happened. I don't give a fuck what you do. Never. I don't, boy, when I tell you, I don't care what you do. Do you listen to the podcast? Yeah.

No. I've never, I've never given a fuck what you do. I've never even been like, yo, I've, there's not one, the only thing is maybe, maybe I've laid on the horn waiting for somebody to get out of a parking space. But like, maybe is that, is that Karen is that Karen?

That's a little, no, Karen would get out of the car. Karen will block them in, get out of the car and start yelling at them. So no. No, no, I've never, like, if I ever have a moment where I'm like, complaining about something, it's usually because there's some type of discrimination. And that does not make me a Karen. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Last one. Let's go. This is from Marley Emma. What's your favorite restaurant in L.A.?

Ruth Chris. Really? Yeah. But it's everywhere. I don't give a fuck. I don't even know where Ruth Chris is out here. Who knows? It's right over there on Beverly.

Like, I like, I don't know why. I've been to all the great restaurants, and they're all amazing. I've been to all of the greatest restaurants here in L.A. And they're fucking fantastic. Okay? I just like Plano Roosk, Chris. I'm a simple man. You're simple?

I would say, they're everywhere, too. I'm trying to. No, you know what restaurant I really like out here? Scopa. Scopa's great. I judge restaurants buy their pork chops, and they have a fantastic pork chop. Italian restaurant in Venice. it's great. It's one of my favorites.

Honka pig. All right. Do you have a, do you, thank you, mailback's done. It's over. No more mailback. All right. Thank you. I do want to say that there's somebody who reached out in mailbag this week and their name was my own spark. I like that. I like that for whatever reason.

Your name is my own spark. We're not going to reach a question, but I just have to tell you that's the name. Be your own spark. I love that. Okay. Do you have an ally of the week? No, I'm going to share yours. Oh, this is. Because you shared it with the group. This is great.

Wherever you at, Christopher. Wherever you at Christopher, Christopher is my unexpected ally of the week and we are going to play the sound. Play the entire thing. This is why Christopher who called out the usage

of the Confederate flag is my unexpected ally of the week. Chris, that's what I'm talking about, Chris. Do your thing, bro. So eloquent, man. So eloquent, Chris. Do your Dang, play it right now. Like, what it's, like, how the war started. It's kind of involved into, like, a racial thing when really it was not started as a racial thing at all.

And I think that, like, it should absolutely be flown. Like, like, publicly. Any other appeals as far as agreeing with him or disagreeing with him? Okay, Mr. Justice? You do have a right to fly it. I do not think it should be flown on public property, like in front of a state house. You can also fly it at protests. But he mentioned.

misconceptions. There are no misconceptions about that flag. The flag that we see today is not actually the Confederate flag. The Confederate flag is similar to that of the United States. It has a blue upper right-hand corner with seven stars in a circle, two red stripes, and in the middle a white stripe. The flag we see today is an interpretation of a Confederate battle flag. And the interpretation went up in the 1960s around the time the civil rights movement started. And to the point where it's not racially motivated, then how come it's a symbol for so many groups like the KKK and the National Socialist Movement, who, as you all probably know, have white supremacist and neo-Nazi ideologies? Also, I find it ironic that people claim to be patriots when they fly that

flag. The Confederates stabbed the Union in the back. They shot first, they murdered 500,000 American soldiers, and they argued that it was because of state's rights. I ask, rights to do what? What were we considering getting rid of at the time? Not guns, we weren't trying to raise taxes, it was slavery. We were trying to stop the expansion of slavery to the West. The Southern aristocracy panicked and left the Union. They said, we are not Americans, we are from the South, so we're starting our own country. And then they proceeded to launch numerous terrorist attacks against the Union, shooting at Fort Sumter, murdering 200 people

in Lawrence, Kansas. Amazing. Where was that? They were in some kind of high school or maybe or a boy state or something. I don't know. I couldn't tell. Okay. I couldn't tell.

I couldn't tell. All right, Rach, you're out of here. You're going, you're traveling, okay? Yes, I am. Where do you have to go? I'm going to Columbia. Oh, going to be a lot of fun. First time going.

Oh, wow. Yes. What a special time. I know Brian's cousin's getting married. She's had to postpone it a few times. So it's finally happening, very excited. Look, guys, no Columbia jokes. Look, I could have done it, but I didn't do what I learned from the last time that I made a joke and you guys lit my ass up.

Thank you to our producer, Richie Bosek, and our social producer, Trudy Joseph. We appreciate you guys for helping us wrangle the show in today and do everything that we do every single week. Trudy, we're so happy to have you back. We love you. Take the thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lenn-Lund. You know,