Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Knicks Win It All, UFC at the White House, and the Conviction of Karmelo Anthony

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Van and Rachel are back from a break to react to the historic NBA Finals, the UFC fight at the White House, and David Oyelowo’s take on African and Southern Black accents. Then defense attorney Yodit Tewolde joins to help break down the trial and conviction of Karmelo Anthony. (0:00) Intro (8:26) New York Knicks are NBA champs (27:34) UFC fight at the White House (44:15) David Oyelowo on African and Southern Black accents (57:02) Yodit Tewolde on the trial of Karmelo Anthony Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Yodit Tewolde Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. Social Producers: Bernard Moore and Jon Roemer Video Supervision: Chris Thomas and Jacob Cornett Additional Language to be Inserted into Show Note/Description: The Ringer is committed to responsible trading. Please visit https://fanduel.com/predicts to learn more about the resources and helpline. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How I'm Learning is on, is Ivan Latelythe Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn Lindsay. We're back. We're back. Now, listen, I got to say something to everyone. Take this out.

I have to. Oh, yeah, we had an interview with a couple of years. We came back working hard. Well, one of the interviews is for Thursday, right? Sure, but we just came back working hard. We have a stale on Thursday. Yeah. Okay.

We also have Yudit Tewaldi, who is going to be joining us as we break down the verdict in the Carmelo Anthony case. We're actually going to start the show with that. Before we get to that, we'll let you guys know something. So last week on Higher Learning, we had two pre-recorded interviews. So we were basically off. Rachel was in Turks and K-Cos with Drake. And we were off.

Okay. So for the people that have been coming into my comments on El Instagrammo, saying, hey, Van, we hate it with. you guys do just these interviews and don't give us anything else. I'm just wondering if you paid attention to what we said at the top of the deal. I expect more from you, thought wars. We gave you two interviews, a new content, because the podcast was dark. Now we're back.

Also, you're welcome. We didn't just go dark. We worked overtime the week before to make sure that we didn't leave y'all empty-handed and gave you two interviews. Yeah, I don't know if they should have to thank us, though. The person who complained. Oh, to the person who complained. Yeah.

Like, we gave you something. And not just something. Yeah. So. A representative and a senator. Right. I don't see much popping from the Chris Murphy interview. Chris Murphy needs to maybe up his.

No, I liked Chris. How was Turks? What did you enjoy? Did you see Drake? I didn't, but apparently he was right there. Oh, he looked at where we were saying. I guess he likes the restaurant and the bar.

But no, I wasn't on the lookout for him. I wasn't trying to see him. I was there with my families. celebrating pretty hair 70th. Her birthday was in January. She wanted to get all the family together, immediate family. It was lovely. It was their first, my parents' first time there,

and it's a feat to be able to get my dad to take off vacation. And he took off. He didn't work at all. No phone calls. Truly, like, enjoyed himself. And it was really fun to see. I don't know if I've ever seen my dad, since we were maybe younger,

fully enjoy himself on vacation. And I really hope he takes more. What did he do? He just relaxed. Did he- My dad does not relax? Did he like dance and like have a couple drinks? Was he getting loose? My dad doesn't drink.

He doesn't drink at all? No, he doesn't drink. Okay. He doesn't drink. Smoking a little. He doesn't like to lose control. No, he doesn't like to lose control. But took his shoes off, got in the sand, gotten water.

Are you kidding? Took his shoes off? These are big deals. No, no, no. When my dad walked to the pool, he had a black t-shirt on slacks, socks, and black, like, dress shoes. Yes. In Turks, it's like, this is what I'm telling you. That was day one.

And we were like, come on, man. Like, relax. Like, just enjoy where you are. So when I say he took his shoes off, he put short, that is a big deal. Okay. He put his feet in the sand. At one point, he said, take a picture of me. I've never heard my dad speak those words.

Wow. All in the same sentence. Wow. This is big for him. Okay. So he really enjoyed him. So that was nice. I feel like he did it for my mom and she really had a lovely time.

And yeah, it was just too quick. Too quick. Turks is a great place to go. Have you been? Yeah. We went in 2021. Turks is a great place to go. Turks is phenomenal.

People are very friendly. And I feel like the people who come, who tour Turks, come often. Oh. It just seems like they know this person. Like, oh, yeah, so-and-so's back. And, yeah, people were adopting. I was like meeting these people had dogs there. And they're like, oh, yeah, we adopt dogs.

Like, it's a whole thing here. And just, yeah, it's. Turks dogs. Bring them back to the state. just, yeah, it was a lovely time. I'd been in like nine years. It was interesting that, like, you told me that you were going to Turks and then you went there on the same,

it's the same week, the same time that Drake was there. Well, Kylie Jenner was there too. He ain't bringing that up. Well, I didn't know that she was there. Because I thought that she, I thought that I saw Kylie Jenner in New York with Timothy Shalamee for the end of the game. Yeah, so I thought that. I think that the beginning, in her trip, beginning of mine.

So she was there with Timmy or, no, Timmy couldn't be there because Timmy was following the finals. So she was on vacation then she came back. I have to be honest about two things. Okay, number one, Turks is great. Oh, number one, I have to be honest, I have to say this. Somebody that was on the Turks trip with us

when we all went to Turks, Weezy from Decisions to Decisions. Oh, yeah. Congratulations to Weezy on her recent engagement. Yeah, really beautiful. Lover girl finds her fella is always a great story. So congratulations. Also because you really, if you follow her, and even when she was on this podcast

and she talked about it, she has been very intentional about creating the relationship she wants for herself. Right. And not following anything traditional, not doing what anybody said, and she found that person and together,

that partner, I should say, not a person, a partner, who fulfills that and they have created something beautiful together. And I think that is so cool when you follow her job. journey. So.

I'm really happy. And I went to Trapp House when I was in New York first time, not the last. I had a blast. You loved it. I really need that to come to L.A.

And so then that was, well, else were we talking about there. You said you're two things. I'm assuming you were going to get to something

about Drake. No, it wasn't about Drake. Oh, no, no, no, no. I have now decided that I actually love the Kylie Jenner, Timothy Shalamee couple.

Why? I didn't know you didn't love it. It's not that I did love it. A lot of people, like, point to the Kardashians and the Jenners as, like, destructive to, like, dudes or whatever like that. I don't know. It's like, people say that there's a curse or whatever. She seems a little different. But in this situation, I saw something that I really appreciated from a Kylie Jenner.

So the most authentic thing about Timothy Shalamee to me is his love for the Knicks. A lot of people think that it's performative. I do not think that it is performative at all. The Saints won the Super Bowl in 2010, and I was going nuts. I went from Los Angeles to New Orleans by train. Oh, wow. By train to be in New Orleans for the game when it happened. I couldn't afford, still pre-teamsie.

I couldn't afford anything, but I went home to New Orleans to be amongst the people during the game and we won and it was essentially Mardi Gras out there. I get it, I understand it. But I saw a video of Timothy Shalame walking through Madison Square Garden after game... It was after the 30-point game.

Come back. Four. Yeah, after game four. And he sees some MSG employees. They had matching Chrome Hearts Knicks outfits on. He sees some employees. He breaks away from her and he goes

and starts going crazy with the employees, taking their shirt off, going nuts, the whole deal, and she has a big smile on her face, and she's taping him. And it was like, go ahead. She didn't roll her eyes. Like, here he goes again.

He wasn't being too much for her. He wasn't being too. She's like, oh, he's on one. There was none of that. Stomp your feet type stuff that sometimes happens to one partner or the other partner when somebody's really into something.

Guys do it to ladies too. It's the same thing. But she seemed like, completely energetically happy for the fact that he was acting like a fucking complete idiot. And that's what happens when your team wins. And I just like, I thought that that was cute. I love that you saw that. They just seemed cute together.

So, you know, I'm a supporter of it. Plus, you know, Timothy, he got some half-black babies to raise over there. I want to see how he does it. You know? I was interested in that way. This spring, Denham gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer.

Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price? Moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. This episode is brought to you by Fandual Predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action

all the way to the final match with Fandual Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your $25 bonus on FandualPredicts. Go to fendul.com slash predicts to sign up. That's fendul.com slash predicts to get your $25 bonus.

Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus restrictions apply. See terms at fanduil.com slash predicts slash bonus dash author dash terms. Let's get into the Knicks series right now because the Knicks series has made a lot of people and really injured others. Donnie started. All right. Yeah, the Knicks have won their first NBA championship in 53 years.

The city is going to celebrate on Thursday with a parade. They won in game five. Jalen Brunson scored 45 points was the NBA finals MVP. Celebrations popped up throughout the city. Everyone went crazy. You all saw it. What did you guys think about the Nixis historic series? Season. I'm going to speak from the playoffs. Okay. I can't speak to the whole season. But I do know the history because, you know, Jalen left the Mavericks to come to New York.

So I remember the way people were talking about Jailen coming. I remember them building the team as far as bringing in Villanova players and all of that. Like I remember the storyline, which is why I love, I love, this is to me, I'm just going to speak in general, what makes sports so beautiful and why it's something that, you know, you talk about an AI, you talk about all these other industries. It's moments like this where you're like, you cannot replace this with anything. but the people who play the sport and the love the community has for these teams because I'm not a Knicks fan, I'm not a Spurs fan,

but man did I find myself so invested in this final series and I thought every game had you on the edge of your seat, whether it was the storylines coming in before, whether it was the back and forth between the game, the losing the leads, the reaction from the player, I just loved it all so much.

It was beautiful. That's the word I'm going to keep using to describe it. It was fun. It was entertaining. But it was rich in watching it. And I got to the point where it was like, well, who do you want to win? I actually did say the Nix because I was just thinking of the bigger story. But like this excited, like makes me so excited.

Like I might even start watching from the very beginning. I usually don't watch basketball until football season's over with. Like, I might watch it in the beginning. I feel like reinvigorated when it comes to the league. and the passion, you know, we're always so critical about professional athletes versus collegiate athletes. And there's a lot of talk about, you know, you're playing for being affiliated with big names and big franchises and chasing the money and there's no loyalty.

That, to me, was taken away with watching what the Knicks did from building up this team to, you know, when Brunson got there to where they are now. That I love to watch and it just, I guess, tells the story of why I like sports so much. And I will just lastly say this. It's a lesson for the Cowboys. Because I do feel that one of the reasons that the Knicks have become the team that they are is because the owner backed off a little bit and let the people who know what they're doing run the team. Cowboys could learn a lesson from this.

Maybe we too could be celebrating and dancing in the streets. We don't need 53 years, but maybe 32. Yeah. Because it's not going to happen this upcoming year. So maybe 32 or 33 years. Yeah. That's tough. That was a tough comparison right there.

Well, it's true in the sense that legacy, it's something, name another team that's close. To what? Close to like the love that people have so deeply for their team like the Knicks. Well, in basketball? Well, I would jump to football. Oh, so, okay. I understand what you're saying.

Look, to me, I hear the Cowboys in my mind, I just couldn't hate them. The comparison makes sense. Don was very involved in a way and pull back. From a structural standpoint in terms of overbearing owners and stuff like that. Now you see the guys over there, Leon Rose and the gentlemen over there that are able to kind of get the Knicks right and all that stuff. And look what happened. This is what I say they're big winners from the NBA finals.

Okay, these are the big winners to me. The big winner is obviously Nick's culture. Nick's culture has been very fun the whole Bing Bang situation. Nick's culture, particularly since Jaylen Brunson has made the city believe in his stardom

has been a lot of fun. And their culture has been rewarded, watching them celebrate. Obviously there have been some things that have been fucked up that's happened over there, watching them celebrate, watching them be a part of this team that is unexpected

in terms of them winning. Number one, Knicks Culture won. Number two, Timothy Shalame is a big winner here. I said it before. Timothy Shalame looks like a, I guess, normal guy, which is what he's always been, which has kind of been his flaw. Him saying, the same reason why I liked Timothy Shalamee

watching him celebrate the Knicks, is the same reason why seeing him say that ballet is dead, aggravated you. It's the same thing. It's somebody who is so real at times that they can't help themselves. It's like just such a regular dude that could act. I know Timothy is,

everybody's performing of all that stuff, but he's just, he speaks his mind and he does stuff, and it kind of seems at times like it's corny or it's too much or whatever, but he's probably being authentic. And in this realm, the authenticity was actually very sweet.

it was just another fucking crazy fan. Yeah. Sitting there saying that ballet is dead when you're talking about the arts is something that you would expect him to know a little bit more about like know where you at. But he knows where he's at when he's a Knicks fan and he seems like he's a really authentic part of the culture. Another huge winner is Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson has answered the prayers of a lot of basketball. fans. A lot of basketball fans wanted somebody to come out of nowhere and remind them of a

traditional lead dog on a basketball team. Somebody who wears all the pressure, somebody who talks the right way, who is an unexpected leader, motivator, and almost cynical killer of the team on the other side of the line. Jalen Brunson was shooting like shit, for the first two games of this series, never stopped shooting. Even the OG tip. The OG tip where OG Ananoi tips the ball in, Jalen Brunson takes a sort of early in the clock, deep three over Vincent Wimbiamma.

Jalen Brunson said, fuck it. We win or lose with this shot. And if we lose, I'll go in the tunnel and I'll answer the question. But I think I can make my team win this game. I think I can win this game and I'm going to take the shot. Little did he know he had forced to be out on him. And if they missed the shot, it was probably going to be Kat or OG that got the rebound.

Maybe he did know that. Maybe he did know. But he takes that fucking shot. Nothing doesn't get rattled. And in the last two games, he takes them home in the final game. He scores 45 of their team's 94 points. Just a complete dog, somebody that you can actually build around and win a championship. Love that.

Another big winner in this entire series I have to say the long-suffering celebrity Nick fans your Spike Lees, your Ben Stillers, all of those guys. They've been around for a long time. You know, they had to root for a lot of shit.

I love them. That was a big deal. You'll be saying that by me one day. No, I won't. I never say it about the Cowboys, no matter what happens. Cowboys could go undefeated and I would say, I'd say that the league was cheating.

I love them. I fucking hate them. All right, now there are big losers in the series. There's one big loser that's a bigger losers. Don't be a hater. Don't you dare put Wimby on the list. Wimby's on a list. You're such a hater.

Why? Why? The biggest loser is, of course, Deeran Fox, who if you guys don't know who Deeran Fox is, is a point guard for San Antonio Spurs that is about to enter into a contract that's going to pay him north of $50 million a year. He was simply unplayable.

at the end of this series. He shot like shit. He could be a little injured. He's playing on a bum ankle, some might say. But then in the waning moments of one of the deciding games here, he goes up for a layup when he probably should have dribbled the clock out. O.G. blocks it. They get the ball back and boom, boom.

All right. So De Aaron Fox showed that not only would he make bonehead plays in the clut situation, but that also just his play itself could not be counted on. He couldn't shoot efficiently. He couldn't get the team organized, all of the stuff that you would expect your veteran guard to do. That's what I was going to say. He's supposed to be a leader on a very young team. On a very young team, Deer & Foss couldn't do it.

And they broke him off with over $200 million last August. They're about to go into that contract right now. It's just a bad situation for him. But I still think that even though Castle played like shit at the end, even though Fox played like shit at the end, even though they didn't get anything from their six men of the year, Keldon Johnson.

Cornett, their backup center, who's been a great backup center the entire season, his minutes were putrid. There are a lot of people, and they're young, who didn't come to the table for the spurs, right? Dylan Harper, I could argue, was a big winner because he did play really well. Still, though, in this moment, Victor Wimbanyama is a huge loser here.

He's a gigantic loser. I'm just going to talk about basketball when it comes to Victor Wemianama because there's nothing that I... There's no specific hate that I have for Wembe. No specific hate that I have for Wemby. But Wembe lost games for his team. He could not dominate games.

He could not figure out a way to be a dynamic offensive force. He shot 42% for this entire series. He's seven for fucking five, right? So I don't know if it's going to be a baby hook, a little turnaround or something. You need a go-to basketball move in order to shoot a high percentage in order to be a player that an offense can get oriented around. It's not going to be whenever Wimby is sitting open from the three

or whenever he can roll to the rim to be a lob threat or whenever he's feeling saucy on that little mid-range. He's going to need more than that. He's going to need something he can go back to and back to and back to and back to. Then in the first two games, he really had problems keeping up with Carl Anthony Towns. Additionally, he don't like each other. He was getting gassed at the end of these games, which he is a big guy. They only played him about 30 minutes throughout the entire regular season.

And towards the end of the season, you need your players to be able to play full games. you need them to be up in the 40s in their minutes, and Victor Wimbignama couldn't do it. Even on the defensive end where he is like nothing else that we've ever seen before towards the end of the games, Wembe just could not be a force. If, in fact, this guy is what they've said that he is, which is a LeBron James, Magic Johnson,

Kobe Bryant type once in a generational basketball talent, that he's got a lot to figure out, Because the Knicks exposed Victor Wimbunyama. And that's not me being a hater. That is reality. The Knicks exposed him. They did. He was exposed by the New York Niz.

This is all I'm going to say about this. You just talked about multiple players on the Spurs team that did not show up in the finals. They didn't play like that in the other playoff games. They didn't play like that in the regular season. A lot of people contributed to them being, you know, tired and young. They're young. They are young. They're young.

So, like, being on that stage, coming from a Knicks who almost made a team that almost made it last season. And now it's like they're, there are locked in. But they've never been to the finals, though. Right. I said, but they came close last season. So they're locked in, right? Wimby was doing everything is what it felt like watching in this final series. What do you mean doing everything?

Like, people were not showing up on the team. Wimby was off. I felt like watching it. Offense, a little praying mantis out there just dunking it like this. I dribbling the ball up the court, taking shots. Like I, the intensity, like the way he was talking to his teammates, I felt like he was doing it all. So when you talk about, sorry, one of us is a hater and one of us isn't. When I don't believe he was exposed, I feel like he was alone.

that's what it felt like watching the final series. It did. So you don't feel like Dylan Harper play well? That's one other player. There are five people on the court at the time for wanting. So what I'm saying is this. What you have to have? I'm exposed.

What you have to have, though, in this situation to me, what you have to have is a star that's not just because I can go back to the Western Conference finals. And Wemby did not play particularly well in the Western Conference finals. Winby seems like a guy that when shit is going for him, then it's awesome. But he has weird stretches of disappearance in these big games, especially like in games where things are a little bit more physical. He's very young.

He's 22 years old. This is not the best version of Victor Wimbunyama that we are going to get. That is the case. That is for sure. However, there is something that happens and Nick Wright talked about this. And Nick Wright might be the last motherfucker that keeps it real.

It's a little weird about LeBron, but Nick Wright might be the last motherfucker that keeps it real. Let's not forget what you said about Brunson. What did he say about Brunton? He was one of the most critical people. Most people were critical about Brunton. Okay, well, he doesn't always get it right.

I'm not saying he always gets it right. Most people were critical about Brunton. Who knew how Brunson was going to be able to do what it was? Everybody had a Brunson take when the Knicks gave Brunson money, less money that Brunson took in order to build a team, by the way. When the Knicks gave Brunson money, everybody had a Brunson take.

Everyone had a Brunson take, okay? But Nick Wright said something about Victor Wimbunyama that I think is very true. He said it can't be both ways. He can't be transcendent, dominating, best player in the league when he plays well, and I is young when he plays bad.

If he's not there yet, then that's fine. We've seen guys who aren't there yet. We also have seen guys in their third year in the league dominate the finals and lead teams to championships. So everybody out there that says, hey, it took everybody so long to get here. That's not true. I can name a lot of people that their third year in the league

like with a linchpin on championship teams. He did take his team to the championship, though. I understand that. I've given him credit for that. But what I'm also saying is that this version of Victor Wiminyama is not going to be a version of Victor Wemeyama that's going to win for NBA titles. And I get that this won't be the final version.

But this version couldn't get it done. And we could talk. He was exposed. He was definitely exposed. They exposed the fact that you can, Wimby likes to play defense everywhere. They expose the fact that you can run him around, get him tired. They expose the fact that he can run him around, get him tired.

They expose the fact that he. he doesn't have a full gas tank to get to the end of playing 42 minutes, playing 43 minutes. They expose the fact that if you tire Wimby out, in the fourth quarter, he was abysmal, abysmal in all of these games. And the Knicks were like,

okay, we're going to deal with a beast for two and a half quarters. Somebody, we're not going to be able to shoot that bitch. It's so demoralizing watching little niggas trying to shoot him on Wemby. But they were like, in the fourth quarter, he's going to fade,

we're going to get those shots. We're going to get drives to the rim and our guys are going to be there. Brunson is going to be there. O.G. and Inobie is going to be there. Man, Jose Alvarado is going to be there. Our guys are going to be there. And when we won't. So there are things about him that were certainly exposed.

It's not the end. It's only the beginning. He's having a phenomenal beginning to his career. But I beg everyone, don't dick ride. Call it as you see it. He needs to go down. down there and develop a hook or some kind of like, I don't know, short turnaround, you go have to, you're 7 foot 5, 7 foot 6.

We love the Kevin Durant here, but you go have to be able to get something in the post from this guy. He already came back better this year. He'll come back better even better next year. There you go. It has to happen. And he is not the first player that had to get better after we saw them on a big stage. Kobe missed four in a row that wasn't in the finals.

I think that was in the Western Conference finals or semifinals against Utah. Kobe Miss Airball four in a row and then we saw the mama came back and it was A-A-I, you know, Mamba shit. But, you know, 42% that's not gonna get it

on that type of usage is not going to happen. But it was a fun final series. It really was so much fun. The most fun five game series I think I've ever seen before. Yeah, it really was. And, you know, the Spurs, you know who else was exposed?

the Spurs' coaching was exposed as well Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair ever order furniture online and wonder what if like what if it doesn't hold up that sofa was four days old You should have ordered from Wayfair With Wayfair there's no what if

Just style you love and quality you can trust Visit Wayfair.ca Wayfair every style, every home A little bit All right, let's take a break All right, we said that we were going to start with Yodi Tewaldi and Carmelo Anthony But it's like we went for like an hour with her

Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. So we'll get into that in the second. But there's been a couple of happenings. Like last night was the UFC fight, the UFC fight at the White House. Donnie? Yeah, Trump threw a UFC fight on the lawn of the White House to celebrate his 80th birthday. It was filled with thousands of guests, including many members of the military.

There were fights. After the heavyweight fight, Josh Hokit repeated this conspiracy theory. And lastly, Michelle Obama is a man. Am I right, America? So I don't watch the I don't watch the UFC. So I don't really know much about this guy.

But we know a couple of things now. We haven't seen condemnation from the White House about this. We're not going to see that. But also, we've seen the UFC itself cozy up to kind of like these. The UFC is a fucking far-right white supremacist organization. Done. Mm-hmm.

It is. The UFC fighters that you talk to seem to have a lot of these notions. The UFC intelligentsia is run by Dana White, who is a close personal friend of President Trump and does his best to launder Trump's reputation. This entire event is sports washing. Having this event at the White House on Trump's birthday is sports washing. So the UFC is a cesspool to me of some of the worst, most divisive types of American thought. And it would not, it did not shock and surprise me to see something that's discussing as this said,

on the octagon as Joe Rogan smiles and introduces the fighter or says goodbye to the fighter. I wonder if Rogan would have been smiling as hard, and I said as much on Instagram, if that guy would have said Melania Trump is a prostitute or in the Epstein files or whatever, any other things that are said about her. I wonder if he would have said that right there at the White House in front of everyone, if Rogan would have smiled it off and just like said the guy's name and sent him on his way.

But this is the type of thought, this is the type of action, and this is the type of climate and culture that to me exist inside of the UFC. Yeah, it's tacky. It's trash. And they only feel cool because they're surrounded by people

who literally are like them. And like I saw people doing them doing interviews of people who were attending. I did not realize it was 4,000 people, but people who attended this event. And they were kind of like, oh, you know, like this is a sports that brings us together. This isn't politics. And it's like it's happening right in front of the White House on the lawn. You're literally here to celebrate President Trump and his birthday. We saw him do it last year.

Again, it was boring. It was tacky. Even he was falling asleep when he did it with this parade. Now you've got this joke of a show with the UFC, which I repeat is trash. And as we just watch this Josh guy, he is too. And then you have them doing like motorcycle flips and some circus shit that some other stuff that Dana White owns. It's just such a joke. And that this is supposed to be how we're celebrating 250 years of this country with this.

This is supposed to be representative in 250 years. This is where we are. This is what's front facing the White House. And in the backdrop, you have this economy that's suffering, inflation up, gas prices. People don't have health care. People don't have clean drinking water. AI units or villages are being built next to people and destroying their personal health and their environment. Like it's just there's just so many things.

That's at the front. This is what's in the back. That's what they care about. They don't care about how the rest of the country is suffering and continues to suffer when you're spending millions and millions of dollars for some tacky shit like this. Like this Josh guy has a history of doing this. So the fact that he was one of the five. fighters, one, and two, is known for his post-controversial. Well, I'm not going to say post-controversial.

Yes, they are, but racist and homophobic rhetoric after. This isn't the first time he's called Michelle Obama, man. He said it before. He's also set the N-word after one of his fights. This is what he does. And for all you people who also want to say stuff about Joe Rogan, and he's not this, and he's not this, what he did do is hold the microphone when he said it. He smiled and laughed and then shook his hand.

And so did the rest of the audience that was there. I didn't hear booze. I heard laughing and cheering. But we shouldn't expect anything less. And of course, we're not going to hear anything from the administration because they think that the Obamas are monkeys. Right. And so part of that to me was done.

Josh Hokit did that to impress the president. Because that's the type of thing that you would do and you would say to impress President Trump. If you wanted to impress President Trump, getting on the good side. If you wanted to say something, then you act like President Trump acts and the way that President Trump acts now

and has always acted is to use racially coded and other terrible nicknames for people, insults for people. This is what he's done. It's like what he's introduced into the American political discussion. And so if you want to get on Trump's good side,

you don't act with dignity and respect after a win. You act like a child. And this is Josh Hokit acting like a child. but more than anything, it is him cutting down and insulting, vilely insulting, one of the most elegant accomplished black women of all time. It matters that Michelle Obama is elegant and accomplished.

It matters to her. It matters to like what she's done for her life. But to me, the thing that matters the most is that Michelle Obama is a black woman. And she should not have to at the White House. in front of everybody watching on Paramount Plus be insulted by this caveman. She shouldn't. And we, for the sake of going along and getting along,

should not have to act like that's okay. At this point, I don't know if we should be watching the UFC. I don't watch the UFC, but I don't know if we should be watching it. I talked to a couple of the guys that I know that are in the UFC and they talked and told me they sent me text messages from people that they had spoke to that actually believe that Michelle Obama is a man. And these are guys that are in the UFC and speak up.

But they don't get the opportunities on these types of platforms like these other guys do. That's not the only thing that I saw regarding the UFC event. I saw Terrence Crawford, one of my favorite fighters, posing with Donald Trump. I'm talking about that he never knew that the President of the United States knew about a kid that comes from Omaha and Nebraska.

And he still doesn't. Well, I mean. I'm sure. Somebody said he probably thinks of Floyd Mayweather and I was like he probably does. He might. But you know, this whole, this generation, I saw Joel Anderson from Ringer Tailgate,

talk about this generation of black athletes and, you know, how they relate and respond to President Donald Trump and some of this stuff on the right. Are you particularly disappointed in this crop in this generation of black athletes overall? As a whole? As a whole? I can't say I'm as a whole.

Really? I mean, in what way? Like, isn't there not speaking up necessarily? Well, in the way that it seems that it seems like there's at least a significant portion of them that seem to be pretty on board with what Donald Trump is doing. I'm not aware of a significant portion. Now, if you wanted to say there was a significant portion who don't say anything, I could talk about that. I feel like that there are people who just sit silent and just go with the status. and don't really do anything because they don't want to be disruptors, which is contrary to the, to the generation of black athletes before.

But as far as an overwhelming number of black athletes that support Trump, I am not aware of that. I'm holding space to be wrong. I'm just saying I'm just not aware of that. But I am disappointed. I saw Michael Irvin there. Obviously, deep love for the cowboys. I see him running around in there. I was kind of surprised to see him there.

I didn't know what his stance was. He's a different generation, but still just a black athlete to your point. Let me be more precise. Let me not say a significant portion. Let me say that there is a vocal portion of black athletes in the NFL more than any other place. Basketball seems to be a little bit different, at least from what we know, in the NFL more than other places that are fucking with what Trump has going on and don't. Combat sports and football seem to be kind of an incubator for this type of right way. wing thought. And I'd say this, if you are an athlete and you do not agree with some of this

stuff, but you're not speaking up, you probably should. Because there is a creeping sense of dread that there's a whole generation of black male successful athletes that is captured by the right. And if that is not true, which is what Rachel is saying, and she's right, I can't point to any data on this, then it would be great if there were people all over the place that called this out. If there were people all over the place that went, this right here said about this black lady is white. It would be nice to hear from you. As far as the Terrence Crawford situation, this goes back to something that I deeply believe.

I believe that a lot of our brothers and sisters don't actually want to be free. They want to be white. and the difference between being free and being white is freedom is something that you share and whiteness is oriented around domination. Now, if you ask people, do you want to be free? The question is what does freedom mean to you? A lot of times when whiteness or when you talk about freedom on the right, they're talking about freedom from not having to go into the bathroom,

the same bathroom that trans people use, and I have to go into the same bathroom that black people use, the freedom to be away from what they believe are, the dregs and the undesirables of their society. They want to have freedom to live exactly the life that they want to live without anybody else's perspective being considered. That's freedom to them. Now, if you've learned that version of freedom and what you want,

you're a black man, a black woman, is the ability to dominate somebody to be a shot call that, call shots and do all of that stuff. You don't want to be free. You want to be white. Freedom is something that is shared. Freedom is something that's buoyed by the fact that I am not free unless you are free. You are not free unless I am free.

I do things in promotion of your freedom. You do things in promotion of my freedom and we are all free together. That is freedom. That is freedom from wage slavery. That is freedom from health care slavery. That is freedom from all different types of binding and bondage that Americans are under right now. That's freedom. That's the freedom that I'm talking about.

I don't want to be free to dominate anyone. I don't want to try to be like Donald Trump, which is, I think, what a lot of people are into. Like, I want to go toilet to. Like, I want to be able to say and do whatever I want without anyone saying anything back to me that matters. That's what I want. Well, you don't want what I want. You want something different. You want the version of freedom that Western white supremacy has corrupted you into believing is the way to live your life with as much abundance as possible.

And so when part of this is an adherence to capitalism, part of this started way before this. Part of this started when people like Michael Jordan said Republicans blast sneakers too. Look at fuck who Michael Jordan fucking votes for. But I will tell you that that type of attitude, that type of attitude lends itself to an intellectual dysfunction that gets cemented generations over. Because people start to think that the way to do that is the Michael Jordan way and not the Ali way and not the Kremal-Dul-Jabbar way.

The way to do that is the Michael Jordan way. Well, I'm from everybody and all of that stuff like that. No, that's not the way to do it. if you have any sense of racial self-esteem or racial, racial consciousness is not. But you can't care about that if you're trying to seek wide acceptance. The closer you get, the stronger your desire is to seek white acceptance,

you have to neglect your own community to do it. It's the only way to fully achieve it. You have to. But there is a time now when, and there's an other thing that bothers me. We're not going to spend too much time on this. The thing that bothers me about it more than anything is if that's your lane, then be that.

I don't want to hear this the way they treat a black man in this industry when your contracts don't go right. I don't want to hear this the way they treat a black man in this when your liquor brand don't get picked up. I don't want to hear that this is the way they treat a black man because you don't give a fuck about any of that stuff on the front end. You only care about it when it can be leveraged for your personal game. We really have to do

a lot of re-education on what solidarity and actual movement looks like. If you are that, that's cool. Maybe Terrence Crawford is a fucking Republican. That's his business.

Republican is a MAGA though. So be clear. I disagree. Okay. I think that right now the Republicans, you name me a Republican. There are certain Republicans that have called out Donald Trump, but Donald Trump made up a slurfin him, called him rhinos.

So Donald Trump has said that the only way to be a Republican is to be MAGA. He has said that. And it seems like there doesn't seem, there's not a lot of pushback against that idea. I mean, I think there are people who still consider themselves Republicans who are anti-Trump. I think that certainly that's true. But not when you take a picture with them and then give a whole story in your caption. Right. That's not Terrence.

The Republican Party seems to be rooted in an eternal... The party itself, for sure. The party itself, an eternal anti-blackness that's existed in a long time. I'm like, you know, at least since the great switching and whatever that was happening. But, like, you know, this particular president is different. I'm not going to act like this is a new phenomenon. It kicks Sammy David Jr.'s ass for going to take that picture with Richard Nixon. This has always been a thing.

but I mean I don't know man just this that and then watching this and he wasn't the only one um is it's just nuts

I felt like a lot of our most a lot of our most famous and accomplished brothers who we bent are bent over backwards to protect to protect and to make

and they just don't they don't give a fuck what you're supposed to do with that you don't need to give a fuck either no I gotta give a fuck. No, no, no, no, no. About them specifically.

Oh, shit, I gotta get a fuck. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I got to, I care, man. About them specifically. You know what I'm saying? Um. Oh, man. We got a...

Look, everything that gets said next is said with love. David L. Yellowell. Just play the clip. This would be a CT. You play the clip, please? If you take the Nigerian accent like this, And you slow it down. You put a lot of slavery in there.

And then you start to put a little bit of subservience in it. This is what starts to happen to the Nigerian accent. Man. It goes. Because literally, if you're down here and you start to speed it up, and then you start to take all the thing out of it, then before you know it, you're talking like this. Now we are free again.

Now we are free. We are released. Hey, that's how you do it. You see that? Damn. Can you try it? You have to study it. No, no.

You usually. No, no, no, no. I do a southern accent? No, the way he just did that whole thing, go ahead. Clear your throat, you know when you. No, no, no. I got to stay in my lane on that one. Okay.

Okay. Now, I'd let you guys know. There is nothing that I like more than this podcast, relationship with David O'Yolow. David O. Yellowow is a movie called Newborn. Early this year, Nate Parker, fantastic movie. Great movie. And him and Nate Parker

have Master Studios together. I could wax, poetic, about life, but the reality is it would just be me trying to soften the blow. We can't do it like that, man. I'll tell you. I just love to know what he was thinking. We can't do it like that, man. Do you think that he would have said that here? because he's talking to two

Africans. Oh, come on, I'll say it like that. Don't make it something that it's not. I'm asking a legitimate question here. He's talking to two Asians, the way you say it is. I just wonder, because I paused because I was going to say Nigerian and I wasn't sure

if both are, so that's why I said that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure everybody was Nigerian. Okay, so, and so it was, oh, I'm in a different space. I have a, and this is not to make, excuse me it, but it did make me wonder, I wonder if you would have said that to us if that conversation had come up. Because we have talked to him about black British actors taking roles of black American actors. And we've done all that conversation. And he does talk about that as well. But I think that conversation, again, that he has with on this, on the podcast 154, 154, 154,

154 Africa podcast, that conversation he has with them combined with this accent and saying he puts a little subservience to it is why we have

the wars. Yeah, it's why we have the diaspora wars because first off, when he talks about the British black actors, American actors, he's like, listen, I'm not saying it's not a legitimate thing, but then he goes on to say, but we're missing the point of why there are such few roles. But when you do that, it's dismissive to, okay, so the few roles there are, why are you getting

and that's the question that's being asked. It's not for you to say, okay, that's cool, but look at the bigger picture. Sure, the bigger pictures there are. There should be more opportunities for black people to have roles in Hollywood, but there aren't. So why aren't black Americans playing the roles of legendary, of historical black Americans. Why does it seem to always go one way? That's the question that needs to be answered. So when you're dismissive of that conversation within this podcast and then you add to it, oh, the way I do this accent, it's coming from Nigeria, but then I'm adding a little subservience to it and that's how I get there. It's totally offensive to black Americans. And it implies something about,

about the language or the dialect or the accent of how black Americans speak in this country. It's, I'm just, David. Tough, stuff. It's tough. So I'll say something to the black Americans in the, okay, so black Brits have played just in the last X amount of years.

Black Brits have played just so we know, because I don't want people to think we're being petty. That's the last thing I want people to think what we've been, that we've been petty. Black Brits in the last, I know, 10, 15 years, have played Martin Luther King, Jr. Both Martin and Coretta, okay, Martin Luther King Jr. and Coretta Scott King.

Harriet Tubman, Solomon Northup, obviously in 12 years of slave. And Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton. Okay. Bass Reeves. Bass Reeves. That's another one.

Kingsleepin I did play Malcolm X in one night in Miami. So like this is, there's something that's happening here that I think, you know, when Samuel Jackson was talking about this, he was talking about Daniel Kalulia playing a black American guy and get out. That's going to happen, guys. Like if we're talking about roles for black people, they're less roles for black Brits. Most of the time you see Daniel Kalulia on screen, most of the time you see Damson Idris on screen. Most of the time you see them on screen, they're going to be playing black Americans.

Like, they will be. You'll see them on screen playing black Americans a lot. Like, you're going to see that, okay? Because the industry they're in is in Hollywood, and Hollywood is normally writing stories about black Americans when you're talking about that. So that is what it is. The influx of them is, could be for a lot of reasons. We all ever talk about, well, we talk about that, you know, British guys or British ladies are better actors than us because they take the stage more series, right? Well, there's also a culture that is centered around that. There's a culture of theater acting that exists in those places that's not quite as robust here, right? You have to go on the stage there. I know a lot of people that are doing stuff on the stage right now.

Yeah, yeah. But you have to go over on the stage there. Maybe we should talk about if we, if we think that there's some kind of quality difference, and I'm not saying that there is, about how we have a robust theater, a stage acting culture over here for young black actors. We should do more that. Maybe we should talk all kinds of conversations you're going to have.

But one conversation that you're going to have here is about the fact that we both know ourselves enough to play these particular parts, and then there's also something else. Us playing these parts is legitimately giving reverence to our ancestors. Our ancestors. Our ancestors.

Our ancestors. And there is a whole diaspora. And so many people that are involved in what has happened here for black people have been from other places, man. There have been so many people from the West Indies. I could name them all. It's been so many people from other places that have been involved in that. It's very true.

It's absolutely true. Without a doubt that that's true, that there's lineage all over the place and this, but when we're talking about us, we're talking about our ancestors and things that happen here. And we also want to be energetically and spiritually a part of the upliftment of our ancestors. And we want to make sure everybody can tell the stories of their ancestors as well. I mean, this is understood. They would not want an American person playing James Bond as a fictional character. But that story is steeped in Brit shit. So they don't want Timothy Shalemae to be

James Bond. They want to find the next young British actor because they want that story to be culturally true. Now we have shared aspects of our culture, but they're not all shared. They're not. And that diversity is also beautiful. It's not just the diversity between white, black, Asian, whatever is diversity. Intra-diasperic diversity is also beautiful. That's beautiful as well. We're not all of the same, which means there are some things for you that are not for me. We can share of them, but the ownership is different. That's okay. As far as the Nigerian

accent into slavery thing, I'm just going to give one piece of advice, and it should be easy. One piece of advice. Do not ever if you are African or outside of being a black American, say or do anything

that even allows people to perceive that you're calling us slaves or that you are somehow setting a hierarchy between black people and Africans. We're not there yet to be able to explore that. So if you say, hey, if I just inject a little subservience into my voice, it sounds like this.

Now, he was, to be fair, he was talking about not black people. He was specifically talking about slaves. It gets wacky to me, though, when he goes, the more Nigerian we feel, the more free we are. We're not to that point yet. Like, we're not to that point yet. Like, we're not there. Your point is brilliant.

I don't think he would have had that conversation here because I think that that entire conversation plays upon a latent fear that we have that this is the way they talk when we're not around. Yeah, yeah. No, 100%. He got comfortable. Yeah.

But look, I'm going to say this and y'all hate it when I do this. David O'Yellow O'Yellow O'O is one of the good guys. He is, man. David O'Yellow O is working and being there for young black actors, no matter where they can. He's one of the good guys. This is a weird, weird fuck up. It's the word. Subservience.

I add a little subservience. They were slaves. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I just, I would love for him. And, you know, David, you can come on here. We could talk about it. Yeah.

Why did you choose? What were we thinking? Well, subservience is what a slave would be. I know, but to say, just to like, it's just weird. It's weird. It's weird. It's weird. It's not weird.

It's wrong. It's wrong. It's disrespectful. Yes. And that's why people are upset. And you, using the word hierarchy, He's so key. Because you started, you literally started up here,

like hand motion, everything in the way you talk. And by the time you got to doing a southern black American accent, because it was, it wasn't just like, you were down here like this, talking. Now I want him to go back and watch it. And there's just not enough trust. As a black man from here, I don't trust that the rest of the world

don't look at us as the drags of society. It's not the way that they feel. The way I feel, and this might be fucked up, the way I feel is there is nothing better in the world than a black American costume. And there's nothing more powerful in the world than being able to take that costume off when you don't need it no more.

And that's just how I feel. Like, I got to have hip-hop conversations and conversations about dress and all of this stuff by people that's not from there. And then when we go to do their shit, they tell me what the fuck I can't do. It just seems like the black American costume is very, very, very important. But just as important is the ability to take that bitch off.

And I'm not saying he was here right now, but he literally described going into costume, then described coming out of the costume and regaining his freedom. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Tough. Okay.

Now, we have to get into a story that happened last week while we were away with Yiottoldi. We're going to talk for about an hour, guys, about the verdict in the hyper-tragic, almost unimaginable Carmelo-Anthony case on the other side of his breath. Okay, while we were away, a verdict came in in the insanely tragic case of Carmel and Carmelo Anthony and Austin Metcalf, you might have heard this. I'm sure that if you're listening to us, you've heard it. There was a killing that took place in Texas at a Texas high school track meet. The now convicted murderer, Carmelo Anthony, stabbed Austin Metcalfe with a knife. There was obviously a lot of consternation and conversation around the trial about whether or not this was self-defense.

but whether or not this was murder. You guys, this is an incredibly serious case with a lot of different legal yeses and those ups and downs and entanglements. We were always going to discuss this for the people that were asking us why we didn't talk about yesterday. Excuse me, last week. We were going to record last week. We're about to get into it right now, but we brought in someone to help us understand

at least the legal part of this. You guys have heard her on this podcast before. Her name is Yodit Tewaldi Snaka. And she always It was Yody Tewaldi And she's joining us on higher learning today She was asking if I was going to butcher her name She is here today

But in all seriousness This is a case that Is just gut-wrenching from so many different angles Thank you for joining us so much You're on vacation right now And you were At work At work

Always working We're always working. But you're away. He decided to join us. First thing, I'll ask you. The verdict has come in. The sentencing has come in. A verdict of murder sentencing 35 years.

So Carmelo Anthony is currently 19. He would have to serve. I think it's 17 years before he's eligible for parole. First question is a pretty easy one. Did the jury get it right in this instance? Is that an easy question? That's an easy question? Well, yeah.

That's a hard question. Do I think that Carmelos actions based on the evidence that was presented by the prosecution and the defense fits murder? No. But I'm not on the jury. There were no cameras in the courtroom. I can only read transcripts. I don't know how certain witnesses were perceived by the jury. And we are taught as lawyers, Rachel, as you know, to respect a jury's decision.

But there were problems from the very start of this case, from the time that it happened last year. There was information floating around right up until this very moment. There's information being floated around. But based on what I know was presented in court, I feel as though Carmel's actions fell under manslaughter. So under manslaughter. Manclaughter was not charged. It was put into, I think, the, the jury instruction.

The jury instruction later on, it was not charged. So do you feel like Carmelo Anthony was overcharged? So I believe that the prosecution was charging Anthony with murder because they believed that he intentionally killed Austin Metcalf. Murder requires intention. It requires premeditation. Manslaughter does not. Manslaughter is recklessly causing someone's death.

with the conscious disregard of a known unjustifiable risk. Do I believe that Carmelo understood the risks of carrying a knife in his book bag, going to a school-related event, going under a tent that belonged to a rival school? Apparently, there was some words being exchanged, and he understood, I believe, or should have understood the risk of pulling that knife out in that sort of heated, intense environment. I don't believe he woke up that morning intending to kill. I believe he carried the knife to scare, intimidate, maybe even hurt.

But I don't believe he intended to kill someone. And that is also based on his comments made to cops right after. He took accountability for the act. I did it. I did it in self-defense. And then asked if Austin was okay. I don't think death occurred to Carmelo at the time. And he was 17.

So that is the reason why I feel his actions aligned more with manslaughter, which was what the defense argued to the jury to consider. when they went to go deliberate and then when they came back and obviously rejected the self-defense claim and manslaughter, they reiterated during punishment

for the jury to consider a crime of passion. They could have capped his sentence at 20 instead of going for the 5 to 99 on the murder. So I just don't believe his actions aligned with murder, especially given what we know about Carmelo Anthony, unproblematic, stellar student athlete, captain of his track football teams

doesn't have a record, work two jobs, he doesn't fit the profile of somebody who would want to kill. It does seem like you do not buy the self-defense argument, though. Why is that? All right. Well, self-defense,

the problem with self-defense is that, okay, someone makes an admission to the conduct. Carmela said, I did it. But he's saying he did it because he was legally justified to do so. The problem I'm having with the self-defense is that you have to be reasonable and proportionate to the threat that's presented.

What we know about Austin is that he pushed Carmelo, wasn't armed with a weapon, and that is considered ordinary force that can be met with ordinary force. So if Carmelo punched him and kept punching him, you know, knocks him teeth out, blackened an eye, ordinary force meets ordinary force. The prosecution was arguing that Austin Metcalfe shoved Carmelo

and was met with deadly force that wasn't proportionate to the threat that was actually posed. So you can't meet a shove with a knife. That's a problem. Well, let me ask, I think a lot of people are wondering, and like the more I look into this case or I read transcripts, it's when the defense was presenting their case, and I do want to get into even before we got to trial, actual trial, because I feel like there were some issues that were raised there. But when the defense was presenting its case, it seems like there was really nothing presented. to even show that there was to show to prove self-defense.

Like everything seemed to be really in favor of the prosecution. You really didn't get the side of Carmelo from the witnesses that the defense provided and even more so because Carmelo did not testify. So a lot of people are questioning as to why, and I know you're going to have to guess here, but why the defense did not put him on the stand. You have been a criminal defense attorney in both the public and private sector. I know that they don't always put a defendant on the stand, but he was claiming self-defense. So why do you believe that the defense did not put him on the stand?

So, you know, I tried cases in Collin County in that very same courthouse. And can you explain, wait, can you explain Colin County? Because I was going to ask you about change of venue. It's white. I was going to ask you about change of venue. But yes, for people who don't. don't understand. Everyone's in Dallas area. This is not Dallas. This is where Ken Paxton came from if you know anything about Texas. So yes. Yeah. So 12% black. So you're already

starting from a very small pool of black people when you're talking about jury selection, which I'm sure if y'all want to bring that up later, we can. But it is very rare for a defense lawyer to put up a client on the stand. Okay. If you do, you are making, you're taking certain risks on. So we have to understand that Carmelo is 17 when this crime. was committed, 19 when trial occurred, his brain isn't fully developed. Understand that a lot of times when you put a client on the stand, nerves can look like guilt, fear can look like guilt, and then you're exposing your client to cross-examination by the prosecution.

So while you're asking your client on direct, nice, easy questions, they're going to be grilled and open to the prosecution's cross-examination, which could row them up, get them emotional, make them look really bad in front of the jury. So you're taking a risk. So jurors have to understand, although they want to hear from a defendant, everybody wants to hear the defendant's side, especially when you're saying, you know, you did something because of self-defense and you feared for your life.

Nobody can explain that fear your mental state better than the defendant. However, it is their right not to take the stand. And the jury cannot hold that against them. It's hard. We all have biases. We all have, you know, ideas in our mind, but they are legally not supposed to hold that against the defendant. So the defense doesn't have to put up a shred of evidence. And evidence does entail

testimony from witnesses, from the defendant himself. They don't have to put up a shred of evidence. They could merely just say, hey, jury, the prosecution failed to prove their case. They're the ones with the burden. So I understand why they didn't put Carmelo on the stand, but that also requires the defense to tell the story of self-defense through witnesses. I'm not sure. I think maybe three to four witnesses for the defense took the stand. I'm not sure what was said. It's really hard when you don't have cameras. I'm from the old school of like, please bring cameras into the courtroom so everybody can

see and everybody can weigh in and see what's happening and what's being said. So I don't know what was said, but they had to tell the story for Carmelo. Now, mind you, George Zimmerman claimed self-defense didn't take the stand. Rick Chow just recently in South Carolina claimed self-defense didn't take the stand. and they were both acquitted. You had Kyle Rittenhouse did take the stand and explained his self-defense claim and had that ugly cry.

I don't know if you guys remember it. He was acquitted. So it doesn't require a defendant to actually take the stand, but it does require the defense to try and paint the picture for the jury if you're not. You talked about bias

and how obviously a jury is not supposed to bring that into the courtroom when chosen to be a part of the jury on a case. But like human, are humans, right? Which you just never know.

Do you think, and I don't know if he did this, like I know that there was a Batson challenge, which I do want to ask you about, but I don't know if he filed for change of venue. And I'm wondering if you think he should, because this was a national case, which means it was even bigger in Texas and even bigger in Collin County.

You know, with the ages, with race, with so many different people involved, I would imagine that it's not like I'm saying it's a small community, but it's close-knit. Do you think that they should have changed the venue to hear this case for fairness to... I would have tried anything. That would have been definitely one of the things

I would have tried to do. I'm not saying that an all-white jury can't render a fair verdict. If y'all remember out of Georgia, I'm drawing the blank. A young black man. out running. Amon Arbery, yeah.

His three white killers were convicted by a nearly all-white jury. 11 white, one black. I'm not saying that that is impossible. However, it is problematic when a Batson challenge is raised because the prosecution struck the, I think, three prospective black jurors, and they gave a race-neutral reason. And the race-neutral reason was we don't want,

want educators on this jury because we're dealing with a school-age kid at a school-related event and we don't want educators feeling sympathetic to the defendant. Very fair. That's okay. Cool. Most explanations are race-neutral, though. Unless you're in that prosecutor's head, most explanations will pass muster. The problem is there are reports that there was a white juror that remained on the jury with a similar professional background. So the judge should have compared the struck jurors with the seated jurors, try to see if there was a pattern of discrimination, because discrimination isn't just going to announce itself. It's not going to walk into a courtroom with a sign, right? You've got to look at patterns. Judge said, nope, overruling that challenge,

they sat the 12 jurors, not one black juror was on that jury. That alone doesn't prove discrimination. The Constitution doesn't guarantee a defendant a particular jury racial makeup. Like, that's just not how that goes, but the constitution doesn't make it legal for the state to strad jurors based on race. And so I just don't think that there was enough of a probe. Best believe that this will come up on appeal, though. So every objection the defense attorney is made was saved in the record. It will come up. They've already filed for an appeal.

And I guarantee that an appellate court will look at not only the jury selection. I don't think they're going to focus on the evidence per se that was presented to the jury, but just looking at were there legal errors that would have created a different outcome here? Jury instructions were they properly done? Jury selection was that properly done. So that's going to come back on appeal. Whether that succeeds or not, I don't know,

but it is problematic for the judge to not probe more. There's like a manual. I was a prosecutor. They tell you how to overcome. That's in challenges. Like there's a script for it. So anything you say is going to on its face be racially neutral. It's a pun, it's, it's, it's just important for the judge to probe some more.

And I don't think that that was done here. So cultural, culturally, there's obviously a lot of pain and a lot of anger. Yeah. It's really not, I really don't feel like it is my position to tell people not to be angry. but I do feel the need to give them a sort of optimal circumstances about which justice could have been done here. And when I say justice, I mean justice by the rule of law, as far as a cultural conversation about staying your ground laws,

we'll get into that a little bit later and how I feel like, you know, black people are people of color, non-white people are able to kind of even utilize that if that's even a thing for us. On this particular case, though, Texas has weird rules for murder, right? Texas doesn't have degrees of murder. Texas has murder and Texas has capital murder. There seems to be a very narrow perspective

by which Texas adjudicates the killing of a human being. There seems to be a wider birth. So there wasn't like first degree. I'm getting so many questions, oh, why was this manslaughter? Why was this second degree murder? Why was this? I don't think people really understand

the ways by which, Texas charges and convicts for murder in this situation. They don't understand the charging. They don't understand why it wasn't manslaughter. They don't understand the rejection of the sudden passion argument. I mean, I had somebody asked me, well, if he was, if his intent to kill him, if his intent was to kill him, why didn't he stay over him with the knife and stab him 17 times? Because he certainly could have done it.

Right, right. Right. So then how do we get to here? Explain, like, take apart how Texas charges. murder, the difference in murder charges in Texas, and why you think it should have been manslaughter and not murder, just one more time? Well, Texas doesn't make a distinction, you're right, between first and second degree murder. There's capital murder, and then there's just regular murder.

Okay, what's capital murder for people who don't know? Capital murder would be, there's got to be, so you cause someone's death, and then there's also an aggravating factor, meaning you kill the cop. That's an aggravating factor. Right. Or you're in commission of a robbery, an armed robbery, and in that commission, you killed somebody. Right. You killed a child under 10 years old.

Those are aggravating factors that would be charged, could be charged as capital murder. And an aggravating factor is something that makes a crime particularly heinous? Correct. Okay. So officer, child under 10, you're in commission of another crime on top of killing somebody. Those aggravating factors would amount to capital murder. Then you have murder without the aggravating factor, which is what Carmelo was charged with. The intent that there was intentional, there was an intentional killing premeditation.

I think that that was an overcharge, in my opinion. So when people are asking, why wasn't he charged with manslaughter, I have the same question, right? But that's what his defense attorneys were arguing. Now, manslaughter, I thought was appropriate here. I believe that there was reckless conduct that led to someone's death. that reckless conduct in this case was carrying a knife in your book bag was going over to a rival's tent

was going it was talking apparently shit about the team and this is per the witnesses that were presented I don't know what was there was rumblings about him possibly getting jumped that wasn't presented to the jury in court so whatever was said outside of court not I'm not even real quick

I'm not relying on any of that so all of the stuff to where we had heard stories before that these two boys had had all types of smoke before this and that this was... No, not true. That, none of that stuff was brought in court. None of that stuff was Israel. No. No.

And if it was, defense, where you at? But that wouldn't be helpful though, right? For parmelian, if that were true, that they knew each other. If they knew each other, what you could say was that, and we don't know, is that he was carrying a knife, if he had been jumped before or beat up

before, if they knew each other, that he was carrying a knife for protection. There are some that say he was invited to the tent. There was a friend. A friend that said he was invited to the tent to sit. So he was invited to the tent to sit down. I guess what I'm getting to is for all of the stuff that we know about while he was in the tent, the reason that he would have the knife

that goes back to what she asked, there could be all kinds of reasons he had a knife in his bag. And that's something that you would want to hear from him, right? because he didn't bring the knife presumably to kill somebody at the track meet. Like I used to carry a knife in Baton Rouge to cut shit and have a knife, right? You always be like somebody got something

and you pull out something and somebody could cut something. So, I mean, getting back to like the actuality of the crime itself and the way Texas law works, when they decided to charge him with murder, they are essentially saying that he wanted to kill Austin Metc. calf for pushing him. He wanted to do it. Intent can be present down to the very second before the act is actually committed. Interesting. It doesn't require somebody, it doesn't have to,

it doesn't require somebody getting out of bed and making a plan to go to this me, to go to this tent, to go meet Austin, and it can literally be formulated. It's in the moment. Yeah. Correct. I took out my gun. I shot you in the head. That's intent to kill. And I meant to kill you. Yeah. I don't, I still don't believe that was the case. Yeah. I believe he was trying to hurting. Yeah. Because you also have to take Carmelo as a whole. You got to understand context in who this kid is.

He doesn't strike me. If we were talking about, and this is, you know, just a stretch, but like if we were talking about a kid who was in and out of juvie, who has harmed people before, who's committed violent crimes before, then would I say, okay, is it, is it possible that he wanted to, you know, actually hurt him, like killing? Or a kid who had some sort of specific. expertise with a knife and knew how to kill and all of that stuff. Yeah.

That's just not this kid. Right. Right. Yes, in an ideal world, I would want to hear from Carmelo and want the jury to relate to him and feel sympathetic and understand where he was in his mind at the time. It's just such a big risk. It really is. He could say something that could make the jury just turn on a dime.

And then you're opening him up to prosecution questioning. And that's a whole other ballgame. They'd be salivating at that chance. I just wouldn't do that. But as a defense lawyer, I would make sure I'm telling his story for him. That's the part. In the best way possible.

That is. And I don't know. I don't, if he was bullied before, I'd have testimony about that. Why he felt the need to carry a knife, which he was legally able to do by it. It might have violated school policy, but it wasn't illegal under Texas law.

And that's what I want to get at to. It's so important what you're saying about, okay, he's, I'm not going to open him up to be, you know, cross-examined and put him in the witness stand. But how can I paint his picture? This is a kid who spent most of his life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 50% black and moves to Frisco, 9% black or something like that. And he moves in high school. You know, like, why was there not a witness? Why was there not a parent to talk about why he moved? why they moved him here, how he felt being in a completely different situation.

Why was there no expert testimony about adolescent development, about impulsive nature, an emotional nature, like when you're that age and how your brain is developed? No expert witness from the defense. And I think this is a topic of conversation, too, that people feel like the defense attorney did not adequately represent him in this case, because, there were so few witnesses to tell the story. Like, we're learning it from social media and getting pictures and videos. That wasn't presented to a jury who may have already developed their mind from the national attention that this case got. Here's the thing. I don't know if there was

pretrial rulings about what could come in and what couldn't. So maybe that could be an issue, right? But I did talk to somebody in Texas, a defense lawyer. You and I both know him, Rachel. and he said that the parents failed Carmelo. And I'm not going to go as far as to say that, but I've experienced as a defense lawyer there when talking to prospective clients who will question my abilities as a lawyer, who will try to nickel and dime me,

who believe that the white man's ice is colder. They'll go and hire the white guy for however much money that they're saying they cost. But the parents said that. The parents said that they should. The parents said, the parents were interviewed

and they said that they, they were, oh, I didn't see. I didn't know that, but thank you. They thought that they had to go. It was, they were,

they were advised, should I say, that it was better to go with a white defense attorney for the case. Because if they're a white county, yeah. And they could probably,

okay, maybe there's some truth to that. I don't know, but I understand, I understand cultural competency. and being able to advocate for your client and understanding where they come from. And I don't know if that was lacking.

I don't know this defense lawyer, so I'm not going to question the skills, but we've got to stop assuming that white people can advocate for us better than we can. Yeah. We just have to stop doing that. I'm not saying that that was the case here, but in general, if we're talking about just in general,

it's important for us to be very clear on the value, the advantages of us representing us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And also with jury selection, and I'm going to talk generally about this too, and I've been talking about it for years, covering trials for court TV

and covering trials for a lot of my career. I've told people, we have cameras in the courtroom, please tune in and understand how this all works, including jury selection. See, that's the boring part. People want to get to the good part. which is the verdict. And when they don't get the verdict they want, we raise hell.

But we don't understand that people calling me and asking me how they can get out of jury service is the problem. Yeah. So when people talk about what can we do, just do something as simple as just showing up to court when you get that summons. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

And not assuming that white attorneys can advocate better than black attorneys. Yeah. That's a really good point, deeply rooted. Question. And maybe this could be done. When it came to the jury instructions, Van already pointed out that the judge included manslaughter in the jury instructions. They did not include criminal negligence. Could that be something that's deemed an error?

That wasn't given to the jury as a lesser charge. And then also there was this fight that the defense, Van brought this up, wanted to include, said that this was, it rose to sudden passion. and he wanted to use the word provocation. And the judge said, no, you're not allowed to do that. But then also the attorney didn't bring any testimony to even show or define sudden passion. So anyways, the judge took it out. Do you think that that's an error? Could that be something that is talked about in appeal?

Could he have included criminal negligence within the jury instruction as well as a lesser charge? Not saying the jury would have accepted it. They didn't accept manslaughter, but still. So when you're appealing a conviction, in a sentence, you want to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. So there shouldn't be splicing of should we or should we not? Throw everything at the wall. The

defense asking for criminal negligence to be involved, that's the lowest homicide that there is in Texas. And the prosecution argued that there was no evidence presented to your point, Rachel, by the defense to show that Carmelo just didn't know what the risks were, which I

don't even know how you prove a negative, to be honest. but they objected to it. The defense tried. They objected the prosecution and the judge overruled or didn't go with the defense on this. So they left that out. Crime of Passion,

whether passion should have been provocation, passion was in there. I still think that that was the appropriate term. I do think that there was, the way that they described in witness testimony, you know, Austin and Carmelo's interaction, it was heated. Apparently there was.

things that were said. Apparently, Carmelo said, touch me and finds out, find out what happened. See, that also is, it goes to, it's a negative on the self-defense. If you're provoking an altercation by saying, come here and get it, you can't then say self-defense when he comes. Well,

I understand that, but I'll say this, and this is kind of a cultural thing. A lot of times that statement is defending yourself. I'll just be honest with you. where I'm from going, hey, you don't want this?

Or, hey, come over here and see what's about to happen. That's me trying to talk you out of that. That's me saying, I'm going to fuck you up if you come over here. And that's legitimately because if I didn't want to, and this might sound kind of weird, if I didn't want to go with you, I wouldn't say shit. I would just be like, let's do it. But the moment I say, the moment I verbalized,

if you do this, it's going to be bad for you, That's me actually in a very, very toxic way, trying to hold you out of you doing what you're about to do. Like, that's, like, hey, man, come, like, sometimes you'll be like, come close to me, see what I do. You don't, you might not want to fight, right? You're actually not, because I knew guys that wouldn't do that. I knew guys that as soon as it was up, they coming to you.

But then there were guys that were run, cur out, and then there were guys to be like, all right, come over here, see what's up. So even that being, there's some cultural translation that exists there, in my opinion,

about people taking that as him provoking an actual confrontation. I don't look at that like that. I look at that as saying, hey, man, I got something on me, don't do what you're about to do. And then when he did it anyway,

it was almost as, if he's consenting to the interaction. Well, and you raise an interesting point about culturally understanding this could mean something different, which is why it's important to have a diverse jury that can understand that as well. And somebody black who could talk to, who could speak to that. Who could talk about that, correct.

But I don't think Carmelo made it known that he had a knife. Because I think a minute ago, he said something about, like having, yeah. That's what they say. They say, we don't. know because there's supposedly some fucking video that exists and we haven't seen that I don't even know if that's true. If there was a video they would have shown it. Okay so you don't believe that there's a video.

They would have shown it. No. Okay. So you don't believe that's a video. First thing you see. Okay. Yeah. But apparently there was words being exchanged even before that threat was made, right? Like calling the other team like asses, peas, yawing, you know, he was doing a fair enough. And that's what you do with rival schools, I guess. But you're in their tent

right you're rallying things up some would call that maybe provoking people may not like what i'm saying but this is just honestly what was said in court and if i'm taking what people say as truth and that's what was presented to the jury right i don't have anybody else to really counter that with that the defense presented um the only thing that i think the defendant the defense argued to the jury was to take these these witness testimonies with the grand assault because they were from the same school as Austin. Right.

There could have been some bias. And then there was one guy who claimed and then one guy claimed he didn't even know Carmelo and the defense had to go, hold up, here are pictures of you in Carmelo right here, dapping him up. Like this. So you do know him. He was invited. Yeah. Right? So

that should have been hammered home a little bit more. Like let's, let's look at who we're talking to here. Can I say one more thing? Can I say one more thing? Yeah, of course. It seems as if at some point Austin said move and then made it seem like if you don't move

I'm a move you and then push them I'm I understand where the self-defense falls flat I do yes but I understand where the self-defense falls flat but what I don't kind of understand is the framing of Carmelo Anthony as the one of the as the provocateur here because nothing that he if he would have said I kill everyone in this tent. I'll fuck up everybody in this tent. Like if you

like it, being a black man, I know when somebody wants it. Like I'll fuck up, you try make me move, I'll beat your motherfucking ass. I'll fuck up everybody in this tent. I will do that. If I'm saying hey, if you come to me, I'm going to defend myself.

Yo, that is that to me is where cases like this really get under my skin. He's communicating the ability to defend himself. Like he's, it's, that's like a fucking, a rattlesnake rattling. So why not, okay, so I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

Why not leave? Well, he may, he may not have had a duty to retreat, but let's just say he's in their tent. Right. Right. Like, right. It's not your school's tent. It's the other opposing team's tent.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's no way to argue that mistakes weren't made here. Um, I will say this though. And there's another part of it. He's 17. years old. If he leaves the tent right there, and this is why part of this is the way we communicate

to our young boys, right? Man, I don't want to get all wrapped up in emotion, but I used to leave that house and my dad would look at me and he would see me with somebody and my dad would be like, son, once. He would be like once, son, once, one time. He's like, I know you know people that's doing stuff and they're doing it all the time. and on the 10th time they get caught. He would just look at me. He'd be like, boy, one time. One time.

You go out there, you're in the wrong car, you're with the wrong people. He's like, a bullet or a jail cell? He was like, one time. Please for your daddy be smart, right? And so, and, but when you, I can't tell you how many times I've been in the situation

where I've been in the wrong and I've been like, oh, are you talking to me like that? Well, fuck you. You're not about to come move me in front of all of these people. Like you talk, oh, you talk to me like that? Fuck you. Fuck you. Now what's up.

Yeah. Now what's up. So that part of it is him going back and forth because there's people around and he's a kid. I'm not saying that he did everything correct. I'm just saying there is something here to where I feel like there was meat on the bone to even explain away that part of it, which I've heard so many people talk about and say, well, he invited a confrontation.

he invited this. It feels like that, but I don't believe that that's what he was trying to do. I believe what he was trying to do was communicate his strength and his ability to protect himself. Unfortunately, he had a knife and then that's what he did.

But this is so gutting to me that I don't know how I'm even supposed to talk about it. I feel this profound sense of tragedy and I'm trying to make sense of everything. Yeah. I think it also strikes a chord because of disparities that we've seen. And I think to your point, Van, earlier, that when we assert self-defense, we don't get the benefit of the doubt that white people do.

One percent of the time. Right. And you are 281 percent more likely to have a self-defense claim accepted by a jury if you're white. One person, like, these are real numbers. Like, it's, yeah, for sure. You have people like, you know, there are names that, you know, being thrown out, Kyle Wittenhouse who, you know, cross state lines to go to a protest for Jacob Blake. He was carrying an AR-15.

He was provoking an altercation. He claims self-defense and he gets acquitted. Then you get Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman. Looking for problems. Advised by the people not to get out of the car and approach him. Right. advised not to get out of a car approach.

Approached him at night, in the rain, got his ass whipped, killed the boy, and then we got to go, oh, shouldn't have started a fight. Self defense. What the fuck, man? Self defense. Yeah. And got acquitted.

And then you have just recently out of South Carolina, Rick Choi, who is claiming self-defense. After he shot him in a bad. When your fear is running away from you. Yeah, you chased him, hunted him. He's chasing him. He's not a threat to you. How are you?

Do you know what the thing is? Do you know what the thing is? This is the thing. You see staying your ground, that's not your ground. Right. It's their ground. It's not your ground. You ain't got no ground to stand.

You can't stand your ground because this is not your country. This is not your land. That's not your ground. It's their ground. And they keep telling you over and over and over again that it's theirs. And you better move, you better walk light, you better say the right thing, or they'll kill you, and then 12 people will send that person on vacation. If it were your ground, you could stand it at the same fucking way that they can stand

near ground at, but you can't do that. Because as soon as you do that, you are thrown back into this archaic caveman believed that they have about us. So you take a 17-year-old kid and you make them into somebody who decided that he wanted to kill a white boy that day. when we fucking all know that that's not what the fuck happened. Not the case.

Right. I think this goes back to your point of we have to stop thinking that just because they're white, it's right and that's better. And that is in regard to the attorney that he chose. The way that we're having this conversation and laying out the talking about culturally of what the meaning means with the words that Van said about like,

hey, that's me saying don't come over here. That's a defense. of talking about statistically, and I don't even know if you could have bring an expert in this, but at least could have been a part of your closing argument

about how black boys are viewed in society about a young black boy coming into a predominantly white situation. Go ahead, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Rachel, but he made the mistake, the defense and the prosecution,

saying from the outset of this case, this isn't about black or white. Exactly. Which I... which I guess they were responding to the chaos that was happening right outside the courthouse, the chaos that was happening on social media, nothing could be further from the truth when it comes to the criminal legal system. It's always a black or white thing.

But you know why he did that? You know why he did that? He was trying to, assuming, he was trying to play into, I don't want to make it all about race because then they're going to say it's, you know, it's Colin County. I'm looking at the makeup of this jury. If I focus too much on race, that, yeah, like that's. a white mentality coming in and seeing that rather than understanding you've got to make them understand us. Like that's part of your job as an attorney. And there's nothing wrong with it.

I don't understand why they think that saying something isn't about black or white is a good thing. It's not a bad thing if it is. It's understanding why it is. Right? You've got to understand this. You've got to understand how they speak, how we speak, what it actually means. that there could be a problem in understanding that culturally, right? You've got to understand. And once you accept that, you open your mind up to actually understanding, okay, let me try and put myself in a position that I don't really quite understand, which is why it's so important to have a diverse jury of your peers going back to the idea

of, was this the wrong county to try this case in? Should we have moved? One of the witnesses said on the stand, I was looking at the transcript, one of the witnesses said something like is one of the coaches. And when he pointed Carmelo out, he said he looks different today. He's like he's cleaned up. Or he's like that was, I'm paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment. Which plays into the mind of this was a black guy disheveled, came into their tent with a knife causing trouble.

So like they can play into the racial and cultural aspects. But then you as a defense attorney isn't there to make them understand what that means. Like for a witness to even say that, I don't, I didn't see an objection made, but an objection should have immediately been a maid when he said, well, he's clean shaven. Because what are you implying? Oh, he's just putting on for court. Yeah. Yeah, like you're playing into it all.

This was an honor roll kid, a leader. Two jobs. Work two jobs. Yeah. Two jobs. This is not somebody that just came in to try to impress you. He's an impressive kid. The judge even said so.

I think he made a comment like two days ago saying he said. seemed like a nice kid. Right? He was. I don't see. This isn't a profile of a killer. Yeah. Right? But now he is a killer. And the 35 years, so not only are we overcharged, but we're also more harshly sentenced, because when you think about the cases out of Dallas, I can name him off, Roy Oliver killed Jordan Edwards. This is an officer whose live life, whose brain is formulated, who should know better. And he got 15 years. Aaron Dean killed a Tatiana Jefferson in her own home.

Yeah. Got 12 years. Amber Geiger shot Botham John, who's sitting in his living room eating ice cream, minding his business. She gets 10 years. This 19-year-old gets 35 years. Mm-hmm. Those are Texas cases. Right.

Right. Right. All right. Thank you so much. Yes, for breaking that down. Like that, yeah, it's heavy. It's heavy. By the way, I'm joining Stronghouse Fitness.

Are you going to go with Jerry? You're going to go work, Jerry? Who introduced you to Jerry? What, Jerry? He is. Do you work with Jerry? You work with Jerry? So I did.

Okay. I used to too. I did. I did. I met Jerry somewhere. I haven't gone in yet, yeah. I know. He's always like, why haven't you come back yet?

I'm like, I can't afford to. Rachel, come back. He told me about that. But apparently they've expanded their gym because their gym was a little tight for me. right? So apparently it's going to be bigger so I may come back and see you Van but he is definitely no joke. Yeah so it's

it's Operation Titty destruction Oh you go you go it's going to happen quick because that's a gym where like you walk it's like a crossfit gym that feel like everybody is fit everybody is there to work I'm not going to there's no playing around

I'm not doing that no but it's very personal no no look at what he's done with Bose like Bose looks incredible I saw Benny Boone. Both his abs? I saw like both of them. No, no. No, you guys.

Jerry, they fucked you. Like, it's like, I'm not going in there. I'm not, I'm not, I can't do one of those. Like, I, it's, it's a good, it's a good, hell no. I should have known because I saw Benny Boom walking in there, the director and Benny Boone been in shape since 1997. So, like, it's like, I'm not, you guys, you guys. It's close by the studio.

It's right. I know. I know. I'm scared. I know. Yeah, like going there. You should go in there for sure. I'll go with, how about that.

Just go see. Yeah. Yeah, just go see. Just go check it out. I'll hold your hand through. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys.

All right, take it easy. Bye, bye, bye. Sorry, I know that went a little longer than I told you, but thank you. That was great. That was great. Bye, guys. Bye. All right.

We're back. We're back again on Thursday. We're back on Thursday. We're back on Thursday. On Thursday, I'm going to talk about another video that I saw over the break. You don't want to see it. Now, I'm going to talk about your mamas again. Okay?

Talk about y'all mamas and y'all daddies. We're going to have that conversation Thursday. Right now, we got to go. But think about it. Beyond notice, I'm talking about y'all mamas on Thursday. It's going to be our Friday. Also, we have an interview with Estelle that we recorded today. It's a great interview.

Maybe David O'Yellow, too. Maybe. We'll love to talk to David about that. He's not a man that wouldn't understand why people are upset about this. Oh, yeah, I don't think he would either. I think he would be happy to explain it. Yeah, yeah. Just sit down and talk about it.

Okay. Take the in caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen, Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.