Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Marc Lamont Hill on Trump’s Vision for Gaza, and DEI in the NFL

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Van and Rachel react to the death of Murder Inc. founder Irv Gotti (10:46), before discussing the NFL removing "End Racism" from the end zones at the Super Bowl (15:00), and Dennis Schröder compares NBA trades to modern slavery (32:30). Then, Dr. Marc Lamont Hill is back to talk about Donald Trump’s plan to take over Gaza (38:22), and resurfaced tweets has Van guessing the N-word count of Saquon Barkley’s fiancée (1:13:06). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Dr. Marc Lamont Hill Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howe Learning is on. It is I Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lennon. Starting off the show with the clarification here, Rachel. What? So I think you have some things to clarify as well.

But I'm clarifying this. When I was saying that Donald Trump won, it was a rhetorical win. You said caved it. Caved it. They caved it. They caved it. And this is what I'll say. I'll say that they rhetorically, they, he won.

And let me tell you why that matters. Sure. People have pointed out very correctly that there's not much in the concessions that Mexico or Canada made that is actually substantive in terms of fighting fentanyl. They ain't really changing things that they said they were going to do back in December. That's true. Two things I'll tell you guys. Number one, that stuff was happening just as we went on air,

so I didn't get a chance to dig as deeply into it as I should have. I apologize, number one. Number two, let me tell you why I still think it's problematic. I'll be concise. I still think it's problematic because Trump exists as a strong man. And when a strong man is dictating things, the very appearance from a nation of saying this is what we'll do because this is what you said makes it look like

Trump's tactics work. And those tactics working to me is bad for the rest of the world. It's bad for the rest of the world for the United States to be able to say, hey, you better do this, you better do this, you better do that, or we're going to starve your population.

If they would have stood, and they would have been pain, like obviously, but if they would have taken the posture that they took initially, it would have shown that the United States can't just push

around Mexico and Canada for any reason. I just think me personally, could be wrong, not a politician, but you do not, a bully doesn't respond to anything except for standing up for yourself. Well, yes, what they were saying is some, like the 10,000 troops, you know,

there were already thousands of troops. The deal that Trudeau made wasn't really a deal. That was already something that was in place prior to Trump. So I understood all of that. I agreed with you and what you were saying in how it looks, how it presents itself and not just to other countries, how it presents itself to within this, how citizens view it. That's how I looked at it. Totally understood, you know, what people were saying in the pushback, but I understood what you were saying of how it's what it looks like. And that's kind of how Trump has been able to make it as far as he did. It's the appearance. It's what he says. It's how he presents itself, how he looks to the American people. And that's what they, you know, hang their hat on. Is it my turn?

Yeah. You have somebody to say something to? You, well, here's the thing. The time has finally come with the tables of turn. Yeah.

Right. I'm the one who's typically analyzing something that somebody did that I feel was wrong and listening to some terribly made apology and having to give a rating on it

when it's almost impossible to do they always suck. Now, here I am in a position where I messed up and I need to apologize. But I, my apology is to Rihanna and to Rihanna. Oh, wow. Now, I, I, on the last podcast, spoke out about my musical preferences, which do not include Anita Baker. Oh, daddy. Van posted that on social media. And of course, it had a big response.

And that's what's about to say. I got a lot of people who were like, Van is not your friend. Van set you up. I just want you guys to know. First off, there's a lot that you guys don't see. Van personally called me, well, first before, I mean he was going to post it.

He asked, we talked about it. And then even after the backlash, he asked me if he should take it down. And I said, no, it's a part of the podcast. I said it knowing exactly what was going to come. I'm not somebody who doesn't know who Anita Baker is. I know what she means to the culture. I knew it was going to be a controversial take. I actually said that before I stated it.

I was like, I know this is controversial. I totally understand that. And I can make this comment because I am familiar with her music. As I also said, my mother played her. I, she's just not my preference, okay? The music is just not my preference. Anyways, back to it. So one of the people who commented,

was Rihanna. And Rihanna said that she doesn't think that it's possible we can be friends anymore. My comment broke her heart. And that is why my apology is to Rihanna and Rihanna only. I did mean what I said. It wasn't personal.

But had I known it would break the heart of Rihanna and ruin a possible friendship, I would have just shut the fuck up. And for that, I apologize. Apology. I apologize. No, no, no, I'm not done. I'm not. I want a full. I want a full. I want you to rate me. I apologize for any shock I may have caused. And for the day I may have ruined for Rihanna with my revelation. I hope that she was able to find some sort of peace during the day to mend her broken heart that my big mouth caused. I will forever regret the day that I let Rihanna down. In the words of J. Cole, long-lived, the idols, may they never be your rivals. Damn, my heart sunk to my stomach. I can't believe I'm inserting Rihanna instead of Nause, Rihanna down.

And I just also want to say, I received many responses from people that named their legend, or named another legend whose music does not resonate with them. But the thing is, they wrote that to me privately, and I sent the quiet part out loud. And although that was very courageous of me, it is the courage that may, it is that courage that may have caused me a future with Rihanna. And for that, I apologize to Rihanna and Rihanna only and the rest of you can suck it. That's a 10. That's a 10. That's a 10.

Can suck. Suck it. Suck it. We say stuff. I don't agree with you. about I need a baker. Especially. Oh, okay.

Go ahead. Especially to Sunshine Anderson. Now, I have thick skin. I laughed at a lot of what people said. I laughed in particular. Of course, people are like, oh, of course she would say that. She married a white guy. Oh, she only dates white men.

These things are funny to me. Oh, Rachel, you know, that's the least shocking thing of Rachel. Rachel must have a dirty household because her mom did play it when she was cleaning. Her mom must do not clean the house. That kind of stuff is funny. But I didn't attack Anita Baker as a person. I talked about her music just doesn't reach me. Sunshine Anderson tried to come for me as a person. As a person. I was taking a back. I said, is this 1999? Sunshine Anderson, where's you come from? What decade? Are you from? in right now. What the fuck,

Rates? Come on, man. She started it. She started. I was very polite. I simply wrote her back after she personally attacked me, which a lot of people noticed, I wrote her back and I said, respectfully, sis, my comment applies to you too. Wow.

Look. Like, don't come for me. Don't come for me like that. It's all fun and games. Make fun. Question my blackness. Take my cards. Say I date white men. Say I live in a dirty. That's just funny to me. But then like the personal attacks, the two and two, it's very, it's like the low, not even low hanging fruit. It's just a bad way to argue.

Like, don't attack me personally. Do better than that. Woof. Woof. But if you're Anita Baker and you're watching that, she should have felt very, very, very, very, very, very, very pleased because the culture jumped to our defense. They did. They did. And notice, I didn't say anything about her personally because some people were trying to say stuff about Anita.

and like, no, that's not personal. It's just, it's the music. I said she's a beautiful voice. We're going to have Zoli Griggs on this podcast. She's an actress. She's been a lot of things. And she wants to talk about some legends that she doesn't really vibe with. She made some real, real names.

You saw it. You saw it, right? Zoli Griggs. I saw it, but you should see the names that I got. There's a world out here. We just assume everybody loves everybody. We are opening up the floodgates, okay? We're opening up the floodgates.

If there is a common thought or a common accepted cultural thing and you ain't with it, higher learning is a safe space for you to come and talk about it. Come and talk about why you don't play spades. Come and talk about why you don't like a Neen Baker. Come to talk about all these things. We'll talk about it. We're not a monolith. We're not a monolith.

But sometimes it feels like we're being forced into being one. Higher learning. This is a space for you to come in here and challenge. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, Guseucumabab taken by injection is a prescription medicine version.

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See terms at vandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. If Rachel, you started. I'm glad I could open the door. You did. We would like for this to be a safe place. I took the heat for y'all. Right. So now you're like, use me.

I'm the blocker. You can run behind me. I was about to say Seqon. Okay, that'll mean it like that. Man, this is not a safe place because I can't speak freely without you turning it into some type of innuendo. Stop. Wow.

Okay. On the other side, this small break, some really, really sad news. Irv Gotti, founder of Murder Inc. passed away yesterday. At the time of this recording, it'll be two days ago. It looks like the cause of death is not known yet, but there's reports that he was placed on life support after he suffered a stroke earlier this week that had left him unresponsive. And he actually had a stroke, a minor stroke last year. Thoughts on the passing of music executive and producer, Irv Gotti. Really music icon Irv Gotti in almost every way.

Irv was a polarizing figure in terms of his personal life and things that he said and things that he did. Certainly. But what can't be denied is his acumen as both a music executive. and as an actual hitmaker himself. The work that he did with DMX, the work that he did with Jay-Z, if you were reading the credits in the 90s, you saw Irv Gotti's name

all over some of the biggest records ever. And then he parlayed that obviously into a more than successful run as a label head over at Murder Inc. I had actually heard much earlier in the week that Irv had suffered another stroke and that it was pretty bad. and, you know, there was just a matter of time before, you know, things ended this way.

But I am not in that other business anymore. So there was no reason to talk about that in any place other than with the people that you got the information from. But yeah, I mean, the reality is in terms of what he was able to create and his contributions to the culture, well done. Yeah. I agree with everything that you said. It's just, I know we've talked about this before in the sense of when somebody passes, how much do you, what all do you say about them? Do you talk about them in one way or do you talk about them as a whole? So that's why I'm struggling with my words of what I want to say, but I'm not going to deny anything that you just said.

obviously growing up, grew up on the music that Irv Gotti created. It was definitely a moment. It was a time. He introduced us to so many people that, you know, are still on our playlist, that we still, you know, listen to, enjoy their music, enjoyed what they represented. But I think there were other things that he represented to. And I won't, he passed away and I, you know, my heart goes out to he and his family. and I'll just leave it right there. I just think I can't not say that.

Okay. This is the way I look at that, and then we can move on. And I was trying not to, but I just, it's so, it's so on my mind in light of, and I, and I'll say it like this, I'm not taking away from what he represented in music. I'm not taking what I,

and my heart truly does go out to all the people who lost someone who meant something to them and knew him personally in ways that we never did. but I think just in light of the culture of some of the reckoning that we're having in the music industry, it's hard for me to not think of the things that have come out in regards to him as well and what he also represented in that way. I'm not saying he did exactly certain some of the things that were seeing in the headlines with other people at the top of the music industry. But Ashanti's been vocal. She sat down with an interview with Angie Martinez and discussed some things.

I'm referring to that. I don't want people to speculate anything. That's specifically what I'm referring to. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. And look, we do our best in situations like this, but that's fair.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with Rage saying that. I'm sure somebody will have a problem with it, but that's fair. Donnie? All right. Let's talk about DEI. I feel like DEI has been the acronym of 2025. CRT was the acronym of 2026. two years ago, I feel like the NFL, another acronym, has gotten into the DEI business.

And Roger Goodell, Commissioner, has said that the DEI initiatives of the league have actually made the sport better. He spoke about it during his state of the league address. He said, we got into the diversity efforts because we felt it was the right thing for the NFL. We're going to continue those efforts because we've not only convinced ourselves, I think we've proven to ourselves that it makes the NFL better. We're not in this because it's a trend to get into or a trend to get out of our efforts are fundamental in trying to attract the best possible talent in the NFL both on and off the field. Now, while that is also happening, the Super Bowl, which is coming up this weekend, we're going to see the end of the end racism messages at the end zone. They're going to take those off and they're going to replace them with choose love.

I mean, all right. I mean, did the presence of end racism actually end racism in the NFL or this country? No. But I will say the appearance of it in the end zone, I do feel like was so visible and so large, and it was a reminder that racism is still something that is very present in this society. And we all saw in the wake of the murder of George Floyd,

many corporations move in a similar manner with these platitudes and fleeting promises because they have very much so gone out the way in 2025. We saw them all do their performative interpretation. We'll call it how to pretend to care about racism with the subtitle, a thing that has always existed since the birth of this country. Racism. But I think that the removal of end racism in 2025 out of the end zone, coupled with the election and appointments of this current administration

and the attendance of a racist president, I think it screams louder than any anti-racism statement ever could. It's an erasure. That's the only really thing to call it. They are completely having it disappear. as we're seeing so many other things in regards to diversity, equity, and inclusion,

get erased in this society. It's the biggest stage in football, and you're taking away something that's a big statement in racism. And although they might still keep DEI measures in place, the visual... Was that angry? Maybe.

I just... It was loud. Okay. I just... as much in being aware. Okay. Yeah. Just the visual nature of taking away in racism to me complies with Trump and his administration

and the things that he wants to do. So let's do a thought warrior's thought exercise. Okay. As much as I'm capable of thought at this point, saying all my words at Radio Row for the NFL. Let's change the message. in the end zone. Which they are. Okay, but let's change it completely.

Let's change the subject. Let's change the message to end child trafficking. Put that message in the end zone. And we as the NFL, we love children. We're going to raise awareness. End child trafficking. That's the new message. Who would have a problem with that?

that. Who would have an issue with the message that almost everyone socially agrees is a good thing in child trafficking. No one wants to end child trafficking. No one wants to child trafficking to continue, should I say. No one wants child trafficking to be something that is accessible all over the world. Who would have a problem with that message being in the end zone? Yeah. Sure, it can take you out of the football game a little bit, but at the same time, you're looking at it, end it, we should end it. That would get players talking about it, that would make the NBA, NFL, should I say, an organization that is staunchly and squarely against it. People would think, hey, I wonder why the NFL is talking specifically about that. What a problem that must be. Where can I learn more

about what I can do to help children who have been trafficked or how can I lobby people? Oh, wow, look, now there's a conversation about this and this and this. We thought this was a big problem, but every single Sunday, we thought this was a small problem, but every Sunday it's right there in the end zone, in child trafficking, in child trafficking, in child trafficking. Eventually, you're having a conversation, it's right there, it's not going anywhere.

You're thinking child trafficking's terrible, and the NFL is saying something about it. What's the difference between that statement and racism, which is something that is supposed to be equally opposed to, in society. The difference is they don't really want to end racism. They want you to stop

complaining about it. And those are two very different things. They don't actually want to end racism. They want you to be comfortable pretending like it doesn't exist. Now on the other side of it, the example that I used before, that don't work.

See, because we understand that there are actual victims of child trafficking. king and that those victims are irreparably harmed by the thing. So the only way to stop them from being victimized is to end the thing. And we should talk about that. We should make studies about that. And we should donate time to that.

And we should empowerful people are going to fall if we do that. They're going to be all kinds of people that you thought, oh, my God, I love this person. They're going to go away. And there's going to be a cost. And as a but the child, the person that you're saying, hey, we don't want them to be victimized. They'll be better off. Let's talk about it. Racism, totally different.

Racism, the people that complain about that, they don't mean anything. Who cares what happens to them? Who gives a shit what happens to the people that consistently tell you that they're living in a society where they don't have a fair shake? Who gives the fuck about them? Fuck them. I don't want to hear that shit while I'm watching the game. I don't give, even if it's a bunch of niggas running up and down the field who are sacrificing their body for socioeconomic incentive based upon the fact

that they didn't have clean water to drink in the place that they grew up. So they got to run themselves into a different tax bracket. Stop bothering me. I'm trying to watch football. So it means more that in racism bothers people than it does that they say in racism ran over. Right. No, I think that I think it's a great point. I think the reason that people would not have an issue within child trafficking is because that is a crime.

And everybody agrees that that's a crime. And that's that. Wrong. I disagree. I disagree. It has nothing to. There are plenty of, Rachel, there are plenty of instances where racism is illegal. Plenty of them.

Oh, I'm not done. I'm not done. I wasn't done. I wasn't done. I think the problem with racism is the way that people look at it. I think it's two things. one, like you said, it bothers people and they're triggered. The second thing is racism is sadly open to interpretation for a lot of people.

What they view as racism is different. I think people think of people are so afraid of being labeled as racist. They only want to look at racism in an overt manner. And I think because people try to litigate racism or try to say what is or what isn't when it really is that simple, I think that's the difference as to why people look at in racism differently. Another reason as to why they look at in racism differently versus the way they would look at in child in child trafficking. I'm saying it's right.

But I think that that's it. So that's what I'll say to that. Okay. Let's say you let's say you only think, let's say racism is there's 50% of things are racist and you only think that it's actually 10% like we can't agree on. We can't agree on 40 things. that are racist, right? We can't agree on it. Racism percentage.

I think it's 50. You say it's 10. You can agree that the 10 is bad. So the people that you're saying that they can't agree, in order for you not to, in order for that to be a rationale to remove in racism from the end zone, you have to think that racism doesn't exist. It's not that we couldn't.

Yeah, I think that a lot of people don't think overt racism is, exists. They reason their way out. here's a difference. Okay, so if we don't agree on what is racist, that's fine. But you'd have to, you'd have to think that racism doesn't exist. And if you think right now that racism doesn't exist, the only reason why you think that is because you're purposefully ignoring it. And I don't believe. Agreed. So that's what I'm saying. You could also, hold on, wait, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, you could choose to believe that child trafficking doesn't exist. Why don't you? Because it's something that's so vile. What would be the purpose of choosing to believe that it doesn't exist? In order to choose to believe that it doesn't exist, you'd have to kind of like child trafficking. You kind of have to be into it.

You'd have to want child trafficking to exist. You'd have to want there to be child trafficking. You'd have to want those people to be able to operate in that fashion without any recourse or any type of consequences. Because you'd have to choose to be able to be able to operate in that fashion without any recourse. believe that that's not really happening. You'd have to listen to people who said that they were victims of it and then say and then not believe them. You'd have to look at systems and institutions that are benefiting from it, organizations that are doing it, and not actually think that they're doing it. And then on the other hand, you'd have to look at empirical evidence of people who have

been killed, hurt, and harmed and say that those things never happened. It would be religious and not realistic. And a lot of times, this method of thinking that we're in, it's religious. It's not based on an actual analyzing of thing. But even that is based around societal norms. So I'm saying we all agree that children should be protected. What we haven't agreed on is that we live in a fundamentally systemically racist society. We haven't agreed on that because people religiously choose not to believe it.

My analogy stands, I am Anita Baker. No, no, no. I was agreeing with you this whole time. I was adding it the way that people think of, okay. No. I'm not doing this. You weren't. You're an apple eater.

Guess what you're not getting? Guess what you're not getting? Unapholy. You should. That's what you're not getting. I had one to give in 2025. It has been given. As I'm telling you, that you're right.

That's right. That's exactly how it goes. A marriage, let me tell you, there's two, there's a marriage that needs to happen in 2025. I'm just going to go ahead and say it. What is it? This is a marriage. This will be the greatest marriage for humanity. That marriage is between women and accountability.

Wow. That might be. Now, you've said some doozies on this podcast, but that might be the most sexist thing that you said. And that's a big statement for me. Can I ask you a question? Do you seriously, pivot real quick? I'm obviously kidding.

Do you think that women are good at a kind of? ability. Yes. You do. A hundred percent do. Okay. And unlike you, I'm not going to say that we are more than men. I just think we're good.

It's not about whether or not you are more than men. No, no, because if you don't think that we are, then you think, but you think men are. This is what, or just as a society, are we, are we both, are we both bad at it, period. So men are bad at mistakes. Women are good at mistakes. in my opinion, and these are gross generalizations. Men are bad at mistakes. Yes, they are.

Meaning men require more taking accountability because they just fuck up a lot more. So there's always some reason that you're standing in front of your significant other, of like women, whatever.

There's always a reason that you're standing in front of them saying, I'm sorry, always. But it is fundamental that you learn how to say I'm sorry to women or else you're not going to have very good relationships with women because you're going to always fuck up. Women do fuck up less.

And I think because they fuck up less, they are not as good at just saying, I'm sorry, my bad. They're not as good at saying, hey, you tell a woman that she's done something to you. And the automatic thing that you get is why you're responsible for the thing that she did to you.

I'm going to give you a pass right now. Why? Okay? What's the past? I'm just going to, I'm not even going to respond to what you said. I'm just going to give you a pass. You're down there at the NFL with all those men, all that testosterone, that good old boys club down there on radio row. They didn't invite me to come down there.

They didn't invite me to come down there. And I think, I think, I think you're just in a little bit too in the man-o sphere down there. And I think that, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a pass right now. Can we do something right now? Okay. So they invited me to come down here. And when she says they, she means the company. Okay.

Can you take. He's a company man. Hold on. Wait, wait. Hold on. Can you take accountability for the. the fact that maybe you're less involved with Ringer Spotify stuff than maybe I am? Oh, I am less involved in you.

That's a fact. There you go. Do you think that they would, you think that they would even? Why could hire learning? I used to work in sports. I used to do NFL radio show. I know that. They know that.

They know that. They know that. But they didn't try, but they didn't try to ask. Do they have, do they have, do you have the relationships with people? that I have that maybe they would have thought to ask you. I know Bill. That's not who asked me to come down to.

I know Bill didn't ask you, and I'm just saying, I mean, I don't Bill. Yeah. Saying, whatever, you down there in the Manosphere. You, you, you are, man. Man. Right now. Man.

So what am I excused what you said? Look, this is what I'm saying. It doesn't bother me now. now no it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't I know that anything that it gets brought up I'll end up apologize it doesn't matter like okay on this on this show who's apologized more you to me or me to you oh you oh wait oh to each other oh I thought you meant have you on the podcast in general it's been you for for stuff for sure right me to you I don't feel like we do that much stuff to each other to where apologies have been necessary to be honest with you yeah

from either side. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. That's true. That's true. But I'm just saying, I don't even worry about it now. I laugh when it's time.

When I, when I get, when I get, when I get fucked over, I laugh. That's funny. Move on, play the game.

That's all you got to do. Let's move on, play the game. Go play the game. Okay. What else? What else is on? Donnie,

Donnie, but in here. Let's, let's move away from the NFL. Let's talk about some basketball real quick. NBA vet Dennis Schroeder He has some thoughts From the trade deadline

Which is today He said that quote It's like modern slavery At the end of the day Everybody can decide where you're going Even if you have a contract Yeah of course we make a lot of money We can feed our families

But at the end of the day they say You're not coming to work tomorrow You're going over there They can decide that They got to change that a little bit Now the day after he said this He got traded From Golden State to Utah

Sucks. The Warriors are hilarious. That is funny. I'm sorry. That is funny. Oh, shit. And guess what he's going to do? Did this retire?

No. He's going to catch his flight to Utah, put on his New Jersey, and play for his millions. It's a part of the game. Tell me you read, $40 million slave last night without telling me you read $40 million slave. So I'm going to attempt to give grace. I'm a to Dennis Fruder. I'm an attempt to give grace and it's, you know, giving grace is a dangerous thing on these internet streets now.

You could give grace and get the shit slapped out of you. The nigger got them hands. But, so this is why I'm going to take. to give grace. When we think about slavery, obviously it's not slavery. When we think about slavery, we think about complete ownership,

everything, you know, because think about what slaves are subjected to. That's not the NFL, NBA life, right? Slaves, you have no freedom, no freedom of movement, no bodily autonomy, no freedom of anything,

no freedom of that, no freedom of that. But there is an argument, not in the NBA sense, but in the sense of grander, broader society that capitalism

sort of has us slave, right? I mean, sure. Right. We don't have very much choice as to whether or not we're going to produce. You have to produce. The only other choice is to live a life that is completely devoid of any of the things that a human being should have a right to. So whereas I think in the past, the, the, the, the, the comparison to slavery and the slavery of my ancestors was maybe so mad that I was like, you know what?

Why you have to go to slavery and think about what actual slaves went through? And I still have that sentiment. But at the same time now that I'm trying to expand my scope a little bit and think a little bit deeper about things, you know, there's so many people doing so many things that they don't want to do and they don't have any type of actual control over their lives, their peace, all of that stuff because of the capitalist system that we live in. do we give any grace, any grace to Dennis Schroeder, the philosopher that he was maybe trying to get us to think a little differently about that or does his nigger just fucking up? Let me tell you why I can't find grace.

This comment was made in response to the lucca trick. So, like, you talking about modern day slavery with Luca? A white man? I'm sorry. Which wins. I can't find grace I can't find grace for you when over your 13 year career

you've made over a hundred million dollars is you have like I get you don't like the trade deadline since that you don't have as you don't have the final say into what team you go to but you still get to play basketball and you still get to make multi-millioners

and if that's not okay with you you've made $100 million where you can quit and do what it is that you want to do. And whenever you accept a job, you don't get everything that you want unless you're the CEO owner you're running the company. There are certain concessions that you make when you go work for somebody. And you're working for somebody has made you able to receive nine figures over 13 years. I know Dennis Dennis

Dennis Go be a jazz player Please this is ridiculous Damn Dennis All right Donnie Next we're going to talk to Mark Lamont Hill

About some of Trump's Statements about Guys that Trump met with Netanyahu And he basically said that his goal Or it could be a goal of the United States to ethnically cleanse Gaza and move all of the Palestinians out, shipped them off to Jordan and Egypt.

That's what he said out of his own mouth. Okay? We're going to talk to Mark Lamont Hill about that. And we're also going to talk to Mark Lamont Hill about the fuck around and find out mentality. Is it fair for people to be joking, criticizing, wishing harm and ill on people who voted for President Trump,

being that some of the things that they might have voted for are now kicking them in their nuts. Put myself in the crosshairs there. It's on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming.

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Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Benjamin Netanyahu visited D.C. earlier this week, last week, some point recently. And he held a joint press conference with Donald Trump where they talked about some of their plans for Gaza.

this conversation was a broad conversation about the relationship between American and Israel, between the two leaders. And of course, what's going on in Israel right now came up. We have Mark Lamont Hill joining us on the podcast today to talk a little bit about what some of Trump's remarks mean for the future of Gaza and for U.S. Israeli relations. But before we get to that,

let's get to a little bit of audio from the press conference in which Donald Trump talked about what he thinks should happen in the region. You are talking tonight about the United States taking over a sovereign territory. What authority would allow you to do that? Are you talking about a permanent occupation there, redevelopment? And Mr. Prime Minister, do you see this idea as a way to expand the boundaries of Israel and to have a longer peace, even though the Israeli people know how important that land is

to you and your citizens, just as the space. is inherited by the Palestinians as well. I do see a long-term ownership position, and I see it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle East and maybe the entire Middle East. And everybody I've spoken to, this was not a decision made lightly.

Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the United States owning that piece of land, developing and creating thousands of jobs with something that will be magnificent in a really magnificent area that Nobody would know. Nobody can look because all they see is death and destruction and rubble and demolished buildings falling all over. It's just a terrible site. Terrible side. I've studied it. I've studied this very closely over a lot of months, and I've seen it from every different

angle, and it's a very, very dangerous place to be, and it's only going to get worse. And I think this is an idea that's gotten tremendous, and I'm talking about from the highest level of leadership, gotten tremendous praise. And if the United States can help to bring stability and peace in the Middle East, we'll do that. Donald Trump seemed to intimate several different times that U.S. troops would and could be used to secure Gaza, drive out the remaining Palestinians in Gaza, and then oversee some sort of rebuilding effort there in Gaza that he says will create thousands of. of jobs and enrich who knows who.

Mark, scholar of this area of the world, scholar of Middle East relations, a scholar of the history of the Palestinian people in the region. You hear that and you think what? I think that this is simply the most transparent and ironically articulate explanation of the United States slash Israel's vision for the Palestinian future. Israel has made it very clear for many years through their actions

that they don't want to see a Palestinian future in the region. They've made it increasingly clear in the last few years that they don't believe in a two-state solution, that that's a myth, that they believe that all of historic Palestine that is to say everything from the river to the sea is theirs. And so when you hear Trump say, oh, yeah, we're going to take it over, oh, we're going to have ownership over it,

all of these things. It's not a surprise when you look at what they've done. It's just a surprise in relation to what they've promised, at least to the West and at least to the broader kind of diplomatic community. But how likely is it, you know, Trump said it, then there was pushback from his top. administration officials. You have Republicans in Congress kind of laughing it off a little bit, saying that this is something that won't work. But then Trump doubles down on it. How likely do you

see something like this happening? You said that this is the most, you know, you spelled out the way that Trump said. I forgot the word that you used. But how do you think that this is something that could actually happen? No, I can't happen. For a few reasons. One, the spirit of Palestinian resistance is too strong. Palestinians would never allow 1.8 million of them to be pushed and forced out into Gaza, into Egypt and into Jordan, into the rest of the

Arab diaspora. Also, it would the idea that this would bring peace is absurd. I mean, if you see the Houthis or the, you know, people from Yemen blocking off boats in the Red Sea because of what's

happening in Gaza, if you see Hamas and Hezbo and these other groups, you know, engaging in acts of resistance because of this over the last 15, 16 months, what do you think they're going to do if you tried to literally empty out Gaza? So if anything, you would start World War III. And these are proxies, right? So then you got Russia, you got Iran, you got all these groups involved. Nobody wants to see that happen.

Nobody would allow that to happen. I don't even think the United States really wants that to happen. This is a Trump strategy. Trump strategy is to say something absurd. That's how he negotiates. He walks up to him and says, I'll give you a dollar for your house. And you're like, well, my house is worth a million.

He's like, I'll give you $2. And so he starts there so that he can land someplace far better than he otherwise would. The problem is it's happening after a genocide. And the problem is Israel, the client state, is willing to empty out Gaza. They've shown that. So it's not just a negotiating game. It's not just negotiating tactic. It has real impact.

Even though I don't think it'll end in Gaza being emptied. It does end in changing public discourse. It does end in doing considerable harm to the Palestinians in Gaza and really around the world. So if he's negotiating for something that can happen, is he ignorant to the fact that it can't happen? Or is he trying to float the idea to see what kind of motion and momentum he can build for it. Is he saying this to appease Israel and make Israel think this is Donald Trump on the same page as us? Or is he trying to start a conversation about this actually being a reality?

It's a little bit of everything. So part of it is the first, it's definitely a quick pro quo. I mean, Donald Trump looks like the savior by coming in and basically stopping the ceasefire, not even day one, like day zero. You know, that's what it looks like to the public. You know, Netanyahu agreed to a deal that Biden, had put on the table six months earlier, and it makes them look good. So now Trump is saying, look, let me give you something back here.

I will publicly declare this. This is part of a bigger strategy of normalizing the idea that everything in the region is actually Israel's. When you move the embassy to Jerusalem out of Tel Aviv, you're saying, okay, Jerusalem is Israel, even though that's a contested space, when you say the Golon Heights is Israel's, even though it's been contested territory, and really it's just not Israel's, right? the international community had consensus on that, which is what these are two things that Trump did in his last presidency. When you see these two things happen,

it's a way of saying all of this is Israel's. Donald Trump is doing that to lessen the blow of Israel continuing to expand settlements in the West Bank of them, continuing to take over territory that's not theirs. And now maybe even have a plan to take over parts of Gaza again, like they did pre-2006 when the greenhouses were there. So all of this is part of a, all of this is part of a plan. But there's something else here. You're right.

it's not just an abstract idea for Trump either. Trump wants in. Jared Kushner won it in last time, right? All the Middle East peace deals he made are arms deals. These are weapons deals. And Trump is going to say whatever he can to create a narrative of peace in the region because if there's peace and stability in the region, then Saudi Arabia comes on to sign Abraham Accords again.

Now you get these other countries to come on board, and that means money and money means enhancing Trump's, not just political power, but his political and economic interest long term. So Trump is in this for all the reasons. But what is saying something like this do, like, are there any ramifications of this of how other Middle Eastern countries will react to it? Like he's basically talking about ethnic cleansing and a genocide when we know countries like Saudi Arabia don't support that.

They support the Palestinian people. So what is even, even if it can't happen, what, well, they believe in a, two state, I should say that. What does that, does it mean anything that Trump is still saying it? Does it mess up the whatever relations he's trying to build with some of these other countries? Well, it's a provocation. Sometimes they like provocation, you know, we used to, I remember when George Bush, you know, stood up and spoke out against the permanent action. It was talking about executive orders against the permanent action. And he did it on Martin Luther King's birthday. And it was like, of all the days, why would you do it there? You could just do it the day before. You

you just do it a day after, right? And it wasn't until I talked, Jesse Jackson broke it down for me. He said our reaction to that creates something that helps them fundraise. Like when Jesse Jackson, I was trying to say, they did it on Martin Luther King's birthday,

and they drank your affirmative action. There's a whole bunch of people on Fox News is happy. There's a whole bunch of fundraising that happens. There's a whole bunch of stuff that happens. Except in the case of Visual Palestine, it's not just about the language and the rhetoric. They want resistance.

They want to see people come up and push back physically because then that allows Israel to do the, disproportionate, indiscriminate violent response that they've been doing in Gaza for the last 16 months. So they're like, yeah, come on, like jump up to get beat down, basically. And that's a big part of it, you know. But it's also about testing the public waters.

It's also about saying, how outraged will the people be if I say this? Frankly, like you said, both y'all say, really, you know, the Republicans in Congress, they didn't say, this is disgusting. This is a moral atrocity. This is ethnic cleansing. This is a violation of every international law and convention. this undermines the spirit of the U.N., etc., etc., etc. They said, oh, it'll never happen.

Can you imagine Donald Trump saying, you know, maybe we'll start enslaving niggas again? And people in Congress being like, no, there's no way you'll catch them. You know, like, that ain't the response. The response should be this is a moral atrocity. But they didn't say that. So that gives you a window into what's possible. Yeah. Is Donald Trump a worst president for the Gazans, for Palestinians?

than the previous administration? Yes, objectively, yes. And I say that quickly, but only after a lot of thinking and arguing and debating about this, during the election, everybody who didn't want to vote for Kamala Harris because of the Gaza issue,

because of the Gaza genocide, I thought they overstated the point. I'm okay with saying Joe Biden and Kamala Harris oversaw a genocide. They underwrote, supported, advocated, abetted a genocide. That's true. No U.S. President has done worse. But I think it's a little bit dishonest and a historical to suggest that had George W. Bush been president or had Donald Trump been president or had Jimmy, or maybe, I don't know, Ronald Reagan been president, that the outcome would have been significantly different.

Joe Biden just happened to be president during the genocide. But every U.S. president has overseen the slaughter of Palestinian people have done nothing about it. So I'm not saying that to let Joe Biden off the hook. Joe Biden, what Joe Biden did was indefensible. And what Kamala Harris did on a campaign trail a response to that was absurd, indefensible, atrocious, all the things, right? I got no short of criticism for them. But where I stopped short is when people started to say, well, I'm going to vote for Trump. Or if Trump becomes president, it can't be no worse than genocide. He didn't oversee a genocide. He would have. And what Donald Trump did before cutting unrued funds moving Jerusalem, moving the embassy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

is in many ways fundamentally worse than what we saw prior. And now that Donald Trump is coming in saying, hey, I'm down and empty out the whole gossip strip. And even during the debate when he was debating Kamala Harris or Joe Biden, when he said, I'm not mad at what Israel did on October 7th and October 8th, I just want them to finish the job. Finishing the job didn't mean move faster.

It meant wipe them all out. So Donald Trump was basically saying, if I had been there instead of Joe Biden, I'd have done worse and faster. So, you know, the best argument you could make, the absolute best argument you could make, the most generous read of this you could make for Donald Trump is that he's no worse and no better than Joe Biden.

They're all just as bad. But I'm going to say that Joe, the worstness of this, if that's a word, is bound up in the fact that Donald Trump doesn't even want to pretend. He doesn't even have a pretense of wanting peace. He does want peace. I'm sorry. He does not, but for him, peace means,

quiet doesn't mean justice. So Donald Trump don't care how you get there. You know, and Donald Trump doesn't care of people get wiped out. He doesn't care about rights. I mean, if you heard the last thing I'll say is if you, at that pressure that you all played, when they asked her on what basis, what legal appeal, like basically like, what gives you the right to do this? He didn't even answer that shit. He didn't even pretend to answer that.

He's like, I'm doing it because I'm doing it because I'm me. That's the answer. What do you think that this means for the release of the hostages? and the ceasefire deal that's in place? I mean, I've never trusted the ceasefire deal. I don't think this particular statement will do anything. Although I think, again, we talk about provocations.

They're hoping for Hamas or any Palestinian to blink twice so that they can then say, oh, you violated the ceasefire, and then they can go on with the genocide again. That's the goal. I think the hostages will get released. I think that Hamas is going to follow the directive. I hope that Israel follows suit and continues the ceasefire. but I don't trust it in either direction.

Israel has violated the ceasefire so many times since the ceasefire. And they're just waiting. They're just, they're doing the whole, I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you thing hoping that, you know, Hamas is going to really jump bad. And when it happens, you're going to see a response like you've never seen before. And the argument would be, look at those crazy Palestinians.

They were, you know, we gave them what they asked for and they couldn't keep their peace because it's so barbaric and uncivilized. there is an increasingly an increasing hostile increasingly hostile discourse happening on social media between groups of people liberals

and leftists over Donald Trump and his early sentiments on the Middle East and Gaza right? There's a broad fuck around and find out a school of thought that's happening online.

And it's happening to many different groups. To Mexicans, here Latinos, I've actually said that kind of on the podcast before. I was like, oh, you voted for it. To people in the non-committed movement, the uncommitted movement should I say. Hey, you voted for it or you didn't vote for it. And in many ways,

the worst-case scenario for these groups of people whose, you know, cohort had different levels of support for Donald Trump is being celebrated. What's your thoughts on that? I think it's disgusting. I mean, I'll be honest with you. The Mexican who voted for Trump, you know,

and then two days later, La Migra is coming to take them away or ICE is coming to take them away. Do I chuckle? Yes. I ain't going to lie. I do. And I'm not saying that that's right. I'm saying that I might be,

it might be a contradiction. I'll be honest with you, Mark, I've done on this podcast, I've done more than chuckle. I've said, fuck it. Right. And a lot of that comes from frustration.

I'm taking the time right now in real time and in my off time to reflect on that idea and pose it to you and get your thoughts on it. There is something inherently funny about people who do awful shit thinking that they're the exception to the rule and then find out they're not.

It's the fuck around and find out thing I get at a certain level. But even though it's funny, and I mean, I do more than Chuck in too, right? There's a way, though, that we, one, I don't want to think about voting as a justification for collective punishment. And I also don't want to lose sight

of the fact that part of how Donald Trump becomes president is through a certain kind of authoritarian populism where he, in fact, in a kind of fascist underpinning, which makes people say, oh, he has the answer to my problems. He's going to save me. He doesn't

care about, he's not racist. He just wants the illegals out who are rapists and murderers. He just wants a wall up to get proper security so we can get in. Oh, he doesn't hate the Arabs. He just wants peace. Right? They buy into it. And so it's hard for me to feel bad when a member of a cult ends up drinking,

literally drinking the Kool-Aid and dying. Because it's like they didn't know any better. They didn't know any better. And that's the that's the challenge of this. And there's a certain kind of meanness and indifference to it.

Moral indifference that I see in the Israel-Palestine discourse when people say, oh, y'all didn't vote for Kamala because of Gaza and now look at you dying. I mean, the idea of mocking death, mocking misery

is shameful to me. And it loses the bigger plot here. The point here isn't that the left made the wrong choice by either voting green or not voting or voting for whoever instead of Kamala Harris, it's that the Democrats put them in an impossible position where they either had to vote for a genocidal imperial warmonger or vote for a genocidal imperial warmonger with bad hair, right? Like, the choices were awful. And don't put us in that position anymore. Again, we all made different decisions about what to do with that. And an argument could be made

that Kamala was the moral choice. The argument could be made that not, voting for her was the only moral choice, right? But whatever your choice is, it was an impossible position. And rather than mocking people and saying, well, you fucked around and found out, ha, ha, ha, how do you feel now? Um, I'd rather think about how to fix the bigger picture. So I'm gonna, I receive that. The only thing that I would say to it is that those were the choices. And sure, the Democrats put them in that choice. Uh, the, Republicans did too. And I'll be honest about this. Is that

it seems, and help me out, it seems that the majority of the animus for what's going on in Gaza is aimed at

the moderate left, the centrist's left. Kamala is the one that gets protested against at all her stuff. Kamala is the one that gets shouted down. The leftist activist that I see online, they talk about the problems with the Democrats. And that is, I'm not saying that they're wrong. But I'm saying that it's almost Donald Trump benefits from the lower expectations that they have of him.

I've been seeing a whole bunch of the protesting. And maybe it'll come as he tries to outlaw it on every campus and threaten to deport people. Maybe it'll be there. but I don't see the same criticism and it makes people think that just to be honest that that group that particular group of leftists

only exist to take the bite out of the Democrats and it really feels like I'm holding water for them right now. I'm not. I'm asking how, I mean, look,

but look, here's the thing, though. And let me tell you why I ask this. Because how this ends, how this could end, is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. And the reality is, if that happens, that is something, that particular thing right there is something

that would never happen if Kamala Harris were president. You think that's wrong. Mark's making a face. Marks making a face. Let me ask you a question. Do you think that if Kamala Harris were president there'd be a ceasefire right now?

Um, probably not. So then how many more Palestinians? I mean, at some point you run out of Palestinians. No, so this is what I would say. If Kamala Harris were president, there wouldn't be a ceasefire. There was a ceasefire deal offered about six months ago, and the ceasefire deal didn't go the way that it was supposed to go, particularly because Netanyahu doesn't want a ceasefire.

Netanyahu wants his war. but just like Netanyahu wants his war, Netanyahu wanted his president. There, in my opinion, is a difference between having a president that's sympathetic to you and won't stop you, as Joe Biden didn't, didn't have the moral courage to do that. And having a president that is essentially another wing of you, another arm of you.

And that to me, that necessitated, having a group of people that will go along with whatever that president does. I don't think that exists on the left. I think that if Kamala Harris got up there and said, she was president, and she got up there and she said, you know what, we're going to clean out Gaza. We are going to build nice, beautiful homes there, a beautiful town there.

We're going to do all of this. I think what you said should have happened from the Republicans. would have happened from many Democrats. It would have happened from the entire squad. It would have happened from a lot of even more moderate Democrats that know that their constituency, the people that go out and cast the votes, would not put up for that type of rhetoric

or that type of plan in any way. That's not to say that they acted the way that they should have acted on Gaza when it was time to act. saying that at all. What I'm saying is that outright saying we are going to clean all of the people out, send them to Egypt, send them to Jordan, we are going to compel the Egyptian and the Jordanians to take them. And then we're going to clean them out and we're going to build it so awesome that people are going to be able to live there, but the Ghazans won't want to because

they'll have other homes. Like saying that is... that's a directive, and it's a directive to endeavor into a new world order of how we look at this. Trump wouldn't say that he wouldn't even get the lip service on it, which puts to me the plan in action. I'm not, I know it feels like it. I'm not trying to deify the other side. I'm just saying, if you get that in there, that's worse. And so if you cut off the moderates at their knees, you deal with the extremists on the other side.

Am I fucked up here? No, I think there's an argument. I think it's a compelling argument. Here's what I'll say first. I think you don't see the protesting of the Republicans because there's no expectation that the Republicans can be moved. Right. So we protest the liberals because we think that they can be moved.

We're under the illusion that they care. which could be an argument for why you should vote for Kamala, right? Because she could be moved and Trump can't. I think the reality, though, is specifically on this issue, there hasn't been very much movement. I agree that if Kamala Harris stood up and said what she said, I don't think Thomas Harris ever was set up and say that. So it's hard to kind of wrestle with this hypothetical.

But I think what she would do in some ways is worse, in all Democrats, not just her. and that has allowed the conditions for that to happen without naming it. So with Trump, it's like, oh, we're going to build a wall. And everybody says, oh, you're not going to build a wall or you can't build the wall or whatever. With her, it'll happen in a way that I think is just as dangerous but harder to wrap your arms around. That's why I asked you if you think the ceasefire would have continued because, oh, or what it would have happened. Because if we agree that the ceasefire wouldn't happen under Biden and Trump, and let's say we went another year like this, at some point, you're killing all the Palestinians anywhere.

You're not just transferring them. You're not just moving them to other places. They're dying. And more infrastructure is being destroyed. And you're making it the place uninhabitable. And in some ways, that's worse. They just kick, in fact, I would argue it is worse. It's just kicking them all out.

And so I'm not sure that the Democrat alternative is always better. And when it comes to Palestine, I don't know if Democrats stand up and speak. I mean, the Biden administration said, we're going to continue to fund an armed Israel no matter what. That's a, to me, a clear moral line. No one should be funded unconditionally. But the Democrats didn't stand up and say anything. They never stood up in saying it.

Some of them did. No, some of them did. A-PAC, and they were primaried, and APAC got involved, and they did what they had to do, and they, you know, they got some of the people out there. And the only thing is. That's a handful out of 435 people. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have as much of an expectation

that Democrats are going to be that much better on this issue than Republicans. If you said immigration, I would probably agree with you. If you said taxes, I'd agree with you. If you said education, I'd agree with you. I think they suck on all those issues, but they're way better than Republicans. On this issue, I don't see them as being significantly better. There's no historical record or historical reason to believe that they are. I mean, if we look at settlement expansion, it's George H.W. Bush,

who's probably been the best on this issue. You know, there's just, I don't see any reason to believe that two presidents who's, or president and vice president, who I self-identified basically as Zionist. Biden certainly does. Hamlet does in effect. That two Zionist leaders are going to do better on this than Donald Trump. You know, there's a way that Donald Trump isn't even driven by ideology,

which in some ways might be better on this, you know? That's why I say I struggle with who's better, and I just ultimately say they're both kind of terrible in different ways. So like as an expert who's you know You're way more well versed on this than we are What? It seems like such a hopeless situation Like what do you even think? What do you see? What do you like? Are we just going to be in this standstill where this is what this looks like Will they be moved out? Will they like what do you think? I shouldn't say it like that will Palestinians be moved out? What what do you think? What do you think will happen?

You know, I have a, and I mean, it sounds like a cliche, but I just have an undying faith in the people. I believe that when the people fight, they win. And it's the only way they win is if they fight. And so. But how will they fight? You know, that's the thing, man. Without help, without some help.

I mean, they got help now. You know, they got help around the world. They got solidarity. They got armed help. They got reason. You know, I mean, part of why the world is so afraid of Hamas, and Hezbollah is because they're the help, right? They're the support, you know. Palestinians have held on against the odds for a very long time. You know, the Zionist

narrative is that Israel was created when all the world was against them, but Israel's the one that had the weapons and the power and the support and the imperial protection. I mean, both first from Britain and now from the United States, I mean, Palestinians have survived against the odds. You know, one of the, one of the kind of underlying themes of Palestinian nationalism is, Samud. Samud is steadfastness, a kind of undying commitment to the land of

remaining there, remaining still, not moving. And Palestinians have done that. And I don't see that changing. And if there's enough resistance, there will be a change. It's not an easy one. And I don't know what the political solution ultimately is. But my hope rests in the people

and my hope rests in the ability of the people to resist. This ceasefire didn't happen because Israel ran out the guns, money, weapons, or international support. It happened because the people spoke up. It happened because college kids were willing to risk their semesters and sleep outside. And, you know, it happened because enough of us were willing to protest and have boycotts. You know, it happened because some politicians were able to be courageous enough to say no.

Because some Jewish brothers and sisters would say, not in my name. These are the reasons why Palestine is still an issue. It's still in the forefront. and why Palestinians, I think, will ultimately be free. And I would leave you with that. You know, the evidence was against slavery. All the evidence was against us, right? It was the national economic engine. It was the national pastime. It was our cultural norm. It was our way of life. We didn't know any other way. Science, medicine, psychology, all the disciplines, anthropology said that this was normal and natural philosophy. They all said the Negro was bound to slavery,

religion. You know, all the evidence was against slavery ending. And yet here we are. are free. Free but unequal, but still free. Right. And that only happens when you have a radical imagination and a belief that you can be free against the odds. And I think that's what the Palestinians are tying into as well, that same tradition of resistance and impossibility.

Well said. Look, one of the hardest things about being, you know, a part of an oppressed a group, a marginalized group, a group that is a struggling or recognition, freedom, or equality is that often your choices are between bad

and worse. That's one of the worst things. But I always tell people, worse is an option. Worse is real. Bad is real, but so is worse.

And be it here, be it there, be it anywhere, it can get worse. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, there are a lot of revolutionary theorists

who would say it has to get worse for it to get better. That's true. Yeah. It has to. I mean, to be honest with you, that's what we're, that's what we're,

like, we're contending with here. Here. Right now, we're contending with how much do you want things to get more expensive? How many people have to be hurt. What has to happen?

I mean, obviously, that's what, you know, King believed, show Americans, people getting, fire holes just turned on them and dogs sicked on them and that might be the way. Anyway, I can talk to you about this all day, brother, because I'm still trying to figure out how to talk about it. Still trying to figure out in real time.

Because when I saw the guy- Y'all got it, though, yo. Like, I mean, on some real shit, like, y'all are, first of all, this is one of the most thoughtful interviews I've had on this subject in a very, very, very long time. And y'all are figured, and the space is opening up so that you can talk about this

what I have in a whisper. You know what I mean? And you can be fearless more, you know, about this in a different way. But y'all are doing, y'all are modeling how to have these conversations, how to ask these questions, how to talk about it with care and principle and without trying to equivocate or to create a false equivalency,

rather between, you know, all the people involved in this thing. Somebody's catching hell. We got to be honest about that. And y'all are doing that. Y'all should be commended. I appreciate you, Mark. Appreciate you, Mark. You can catch Mark Lamont Hill nightly, right?

Pretty much a nightly. Nightly on the Mark Lamont Hill YouTube channel. I go there all the time for night school. I go there all the time. Sometimes I'm on there. Mark's audience loves me, but they hate me as well. They love me when I'm talking about stuff. And sometimes I'll get on there and I'll be like,

I love Barack Obama, and they'll be like, fuck them. Oh, they'd be tearing you up in the comments. Yeah, but they, but I'm, that's who I am. Uncle Ben, your uncle who you love and you hate. You're going to say some wild shit sometime. Yo, real quick, man, you're in New Orleans, right? I am. Are you there, are you going to the game?

No, no, no, I'm coming back to that morning. Okay, okay. I was going to ask, who you were rooting for. I guess you can still answer that, though. A room for the Eagles. Okay. Idea sister. I'm rooting for the Eagles.

I'm rooting for the Eagles. We're good. We all sick of the Chiefs. Oh, yeah. Sick of the Chiefs. Although, did you just see what Seekwarn's wife was on Twitter back in the day? I just got him to it. You know what I didn't even know he was with a white woman.

But look, if he rushes for 150 and gives him a Super Bowl, he can have two white women. I'm good one. That's going on Instagram. All right. Mark, you appreciate the brother. Thank you. Thank you, bye. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet,

advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right, we tease this topic with Mark, but let's dig into it. It looks like tweets from Sequan Barclay's fiancé, Anna Congdon. Going back to December 2012 have resurfaced, there was a hashtag going around that said, replace a Disney movie with nigger. And she wrote The Cheetah nigger.

And then Ben Gardis corrected her and was like, hey, niggas. She's like, shit, you're right. It's the cheetah girls. The cheetah niggas. So then Cassidy Claire, a year later, wrote to Anna. She said, hey, my little gold digger. And then Anna responded. She ain't messing with no broke niggins.

So, yeah. Is Sequan Barkley in the raceplay? Shit. I mean, it's a legit question. That wasn't on Susson Street this morning. Listen. Listen. Donnie, you got thoughts?

I do. I'm, uh, I mean, this is, it's fucked up, honestly. To be, I feel like this is a part of her personality. When you're married to somebody, you know this person, like, very, very well. So, I mean, this has to have you look at Sequin a little bit differently. I get Mark's perspective in that, like, if he can help him win a Super Bowl, then fuck it. He don't care about his personal life.

I respect that. But at the same time, you got to look at Seekoine a little bit differently. he knows who Anna is and this is who Anna is. And Anna likes to throw the N-word around real, like, freely with her black kids. It's fucked up. Not only that. She lets you know that she had a goal in mind, right? Her goal was to, her friend calls her a gold digger.

And she's like, that's right. That's before, I don't even know if that's before she met Seqon. When did Seekon go to Penn State? Because they met at Penn State. Seacon left Penn State like 2016, 2017. Okay, so this is before. So this woman had a plan. Okay, this was what she wrote that in 2013.

She had a plan. That plan has been achieved. How we know Sequin doesn't care? That's how I feel. I feel like Sequin could care less about these tweets. She's going to be right there at the sideline with her black babies. Of course. You think these tweets is going to make him

divorce his wife? No, no, no, no, no. No. Of course he's not going to divorce his wife. I honestly don't think he cares. She probably says, nigger, at home. I don't think that she cares. I don't think he cares. I'm just saying that she's still going to be front and stage with the black babies, giving him a kiss on the sideline before he goes into the game. Okay. He is white wife.

This is why I mean, this is why happens. I don't think he cares. don't think, I think he's probably one of those these, I wouldn't be, let me just say this, I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those people who's like, she's cool, she can say it, she's with me. She got black babies.

She was with me. So, look, how old was she when she was saying all of this? Donnie, do we have an age? No. No. No. You have to. No. Wait, wait. No. No. You know why I'm not giving pass to these people anymore?

Delete, delete these tweets. Wait, okay. How, but I'm just saying. Delete, you know you used to do this. You used to do this. Delete the tweets. So these are these tweets are from December 2012, right? Sequin Barclay is 27 now. So if we look back, okay.

She was 14. It says she was born in 19. 14 years old. 14 years old. I mean, look, she obviously, right, I can't disagree with very much you said, Rachel. but I'm saying like you know man

14 years old 14 years old 14 I'm not saying I know she changed though but here's the thing she might have said she might have said a years ago

how you know she changed she's probably she can now she got two little nits she just birth two little niggas now she got it she married she got to engage to one

she niggin it up around the house that's that's how I see I've had enough I'm not making I'm so in 2025 I'm I don't believe that you've changed,

and maybe I will if you tell me. But how do you know that she doesn't still do that? You don't. You're saying she did it when she was 14. She tweeted it. Maybe she's smartened up where she knows not to do it on a public platform, and she does it behind closed doors or text messages with her friends. Her friends even know how she is.

She was a... Can I just say this? Okay. So she was 15 when her friend called her a gold digger. Did that not come? Oh, my question. So look. She's, it worked out for how we know she still ain't, but the other stuff isn't true.

I'm just, I'm so, I'm so sick of it. I'm sick of people digging this stuff up because it makes me mad. But I'm sick of it because I just don't believe that they don't not say it anymore. What's her nigger count? Huh? Her nigger account. What's her account? Her nigger account is probably very high.

It's probably in, I mean, if you look at it, if you, if you, if your niggering makes it to social media, then your nigger count is probably over 25 or 30,000 if it makes it to social media. Because most people aren't, there's no rivalry. Most people aren't stupid enough to bring, if it makes it to social media is probably pretty high. Now look,

let me be real. The conjecture that Sequin doesn't have a problem with her saying, nigger, I can see that. I can see that. I can see that. I can see that. She's with me. She's with me.

I could see that. I could see him being like, oh, shucks. I could see that, right? Not shucks. But I do think sometimes when we look in back at this shit, I just think it matters like how old somebody is with this stuff, man. I just think,

I think that it matters if you're, when you're talking about a little kid whose brain isn't fully developed, like 14-year-olds, when you say how do we know that she's changed, man, she's almost had to have changed like her body has changed her mind has changed

no I'm just saying like 14 it's almost accepted that you will change very few people I know are the same person at 14 than they are you know what gets me with this it'd be sometimes when we go back and this stuff is on earth most of the

times that person didn't go on to then be with somebody black yeah right we're talking about some she went on to be with somebody black and have black children. It just, it bothers me. Catch your question? Have you ever heard Brian say nigger?

No. And I used to ask him if he had. I used to ask him. I'd be like, have you said it? And you would tell me no. He didn't say it. Five thousand niggas. Look, Sequin Barkley, his girl, his wife.

We'll see. We'll see if this is, it's funny. you Chiefs fans ain't shit I can't believe you Chiefs fans going there digging up that shit about Seyquan Barker the fucking KKK meeting y'all got going on over there

Travis Kelsey Travis Kelsey said that he's honored for the president Are you mad? I'm not mad I'm just saying if somebody had talked shit about my motherfucking girl it wouldn't be no honor to see him at all

Cucks all of you motherfuckers are Trump cucks Like if Trump kid Trump dish your girl Trump diss your fucking dad Trump diss your fucking family Trump diss all of these people Cucks I can't believe it

It's very easy to say Hey I know a lot of the country loves Donald Trump And that's fine for them whatever whatever But me personally He'd have to apologize to my lady For me to be honored for him to come to the game Why can't you say that? He dish your girl

I know Yeah I'm not going to get married Well anyway maybe because Maybe because he's he likes him He likes him maybe it's an honor He said it. It's an honor. All right, that's enough.

I'd like to thank everybody who I interviewed on the, the, the, the, the Rail Row this week. I got more interviews tomorrow. I got Jaden Daniels tomorrow. I got Brandon Jackson tomorrow. I think I got Spice Adams tomorrow. And I want to tell you somebody right now who has been. I dare you to throw the hooks up to him.

Huh? Throw the hook. Show him what you do. Show them how you do. Show up what your hooks are like. I'll tell you one person who's been owning Radio Row more than anyone. Who do you think the biggest star at Radio Row has been the last two days? Is it a player?

Nope. It's the person with the most people around them, the most energy when they walk through. Dion? Nah, haven't seen them. Saucidore, though. Shannon? Nah.

Steven A. Stephen A. A. Motha fucking Smith. Stephen A. Smith got crowds moving to we were like, oh shit, who about to come through?

Stephen A. Mother fucking. I saw him at the national championship game. I thought Michael Jordan was in that bitch. The way people were looking around when Stephen A walked through. Star. Whatever.

Did you say hi? Of course. Yeah, of course. I have to agree with that. everybody with everything to cordialities to ensue. All right, that's enough. Take the decaps off, but do not stop learning.

I am Van Lathen Jr. Thank you to Mark Lamont Hill for joining us today. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.