Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Melania the "Trophy Wife," Nicki’s MAGA Turn, and Black Prestige Media With Ashley Allison

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

Van and Rachel discuss the documentary ‘Melania’ before reacting to Nicki Minaj’s appearance at a Trump event and the congressional fight over DHS. Plus, Ashley Allison, owner of The Root, joins to discuss the importance of Black media. (0:00) Black Panther Party (14:53) The ‘Melania’ movie (27:47) Nicki Minaj and Trump (52:26) Congress's fight over DHS (1:18:27) Ashley Allison joins the show (2:10:16) Ray J’s health Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Ashley Allison Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Vote here for the NAACP Image Awards: vote.naacpimageawards.net Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on and Zyvan Lakers, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Um, I think I like the Bay. Why? I like the Bay a lot.

Why? You know what I'm talking about? The Bay. San Francisco? Well, Bay Area. The Bay Area, the whole area. San Francisco, Oakland, Vallejo. Have you even been up there?

A lot. I used to go up there a lot. but I haven't been talking about the Bay. Let me tell you what happened with the Bay. Okay, start off with the Bay here. First of all, like, comment, subscribe, share. Higher Learning is on the upswing, but it'll swing up more when you guys share it to more people.

Share it around. Also vote N-A-CP. We're going to start putting out the links and stuff like that. Vote for the N-A-C-P award. Vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, vote. Do it, please. We appreciate you guys. We love you guys.

The Bay. The Bay. And you're not even going to Super Bowl I'm not So you don't love it that much Well I gotta stay here Because the AFCO Awards Oh yes

And so shout out to Gil Robertson from the AFCO Awards We were supposed to be producing a award You saw me in the last minute I was already going You said fuck them I did not I wrote Gil I told him I was gonna be out of town Mm-hmm

Gil hit me Gil was like Who she thinks she is We wanted her to be a presentation at the Black Award show, who she thinks she is? That told me the last minute. That's true. I really would have loved to.

Such an honor to be asked, which is what I told Gil. Yeah. Gil is like one of the most important men in Hollywood. Whatever Gil wants, we'll do it. The Bay. The Bay. So there's one person who ruined the Bay for me. Okay.

So it's ruined now. No. It's not ruined, is the point. There's a guy named Graham Drake. Okay? Graham Drake. Why does it sound like that? So brilliant biracial brother from the bay.

Where there are, let's face it, a lot of birations up there. There are actually, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of biratials up there. So we used to be on the threads. Shout out to all the Gmail threads back in the day. We had Gmail threads. Oh. We had Gmail thread where we would debate issues.

There was a bunch of lawyers on this thread. Okay. It was Gibral. It was Lauren Bell, who went on to become a U.S. Attorney. is Jim, John, okay. These guys are Nigerians. Nice.

Gibral and the people that he went to. We had Hans Metcalfe on there. One of those, Hans, all, whatever. It was Hans was on there. All of these people were people that Gibral went to Stanford with. Okay. And were all these, I mean, we went to Harvard, what to do. We all debate.

All he would do is debate. And Graham would go so hard for Oakland. And he would go hard for the Bay. He would be like, the Bay influenced everything that ever happened. He'd be like, you ever eat ice cream before? That came from the bay. You ever rode on a bike, that's the bay. Okay.

You ever dance, sing, you ever shout, you ever have sex? The bay invented all of that. So after a while, he kind of turned me off of the bay. Everything had to do. Oh, you don't say. He did. Because he kind of sounds familiar. Like, who did I do?

Tell me how I do that. Because this is what happens on higher learning. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Gardier, Lange. Okay. Why do I even know Gardier? Is that how you saying? Okay. Yes.

Why do I even know that? This is fair. I'm from Baton Rouge. I'm telling you, you guys don't know. This is where I came from. Gardeer Lane. Gino knows. Ryan knows.

McKinley High School. Shut up. Keep you going. Hey. Hey. Hey. See how it gets turned around on me? I'm just saying it sounds familiar, but go ahead.

That's a fair point. Okay. So this kind of, maybe this turned me off of basically the Bay, like you'd say something, and Graham would be like, yeah, they can't fuck with Skyline High, Oakland Tech. I'd be like, whatever. But I have to be honest, man, Grandma was right about the influence of the Bay and about what the Bay has meant to overall culture and to black culture. and to the world.

You know why I'm into this now? Yeah, what brought you here? So I had a conversation about the Black Panthers because if you guys aren't following what happened with Paul Birdsong in Philadelphia and the Black Panthers, some of the original Panthers and some of the people who Birdsong thought

that he had permission from to call himself a Black Panther and to continue on in the tradition of the Black Panther. That's all going to shit now. He ain't a Black Panther no more. He's a black lion. He changed the name. Now listen, we'll have more in-depth and robust discussion around that later.

I hope to get an interview with Paul Birdsong. I saw that Queens Flip, shout out to Queens Flip. Queen's Flip went to Philly and spoke with Paul Birdsong. I cannot wait to watch that. Okay. Because I think that's going to be very important to see Birdsong and his Black Lion movement and what they really stand for, you know, where they are. But this made me go back and re-examine my understanding of the Black Panthers.

Okay. Re-read Soul on Ice, which Cleaver wrote before he joined the Black Panthers, but still, you know, talk about Huey, Bobby, Elaine Brown, Catherine Cleaver, all of the Panthers that were involved, Fred Hampton, all of that stuff. And then going back and, you know, from when they sold Miles Little Red Book to them becoming the Panthers who were in the streets in terms of like the police patrols that they went on, and that onto the breakfast program, when there was a split, when there was a faction, there's something about the Black Panthers that's very specific to the Bay.

and how there was a black educated class and intelligentsia, a cultural strength of the black person from the bay and the way that they looked at the world, how they were cosmopolitan in a way in their revolution, but still grounded in the community, very grounded in the community, very grounded in what they thought. Even that, Huey is part of the great migration from where? Where was Huey born?

Monroe, Louisiana. Was he really? Absolutely. So that connection to Louisiana to the people of the South that went up there and formed this great culture up there. By the end of my examination of the Black Panthers, I was back on my Magdray shit. Okay?

I was back on my MacDray shit. I was back because it just told the whole story. I just kept with the story. I kept with the story of the Panthers into the 70s and then some of the stuff that started to happen in the Bay in terms of some of the culture around, some of the pimping and the pandering. Once those movements were gone into the night,

by the end of it, I was on my sugar tea, be legit, the click E40, Matt Drey shit. I was going to ask you what you listen to this morning coming in. Man, I was listening to Sprinkle me. Oh, well, I mean. Tell me when to go. And then when I put that into the thing,

the motto came on and then that ruined the vibe. It's a good song. It's a good song. It's like it's a good song. But like I just want to say, man, I don't want Graham to hear this and think that, you know, I want him to hit me up and continuously talking about the bay and all of that stuff like that, you know.

But he was kind of right, man. All of these pockets. I hope Graham's listening to them. All of these pockets of American blackness. There's been, last thing I say, about this, we've sort of homogenized our experience, and that's good. It's good for us to have a on oneness. But man, getting to the specific culture of South Florida, the specific culture of South Louisiana. I can't say much about North Louisiana. The state kind of dies when you break

over the way, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now, you know my people are from the northern side. Don't do that. Makes a lot of sense. Oh, really? Does it make a lot of sense? It makes a lot of sense. What kind of sense? Go ahead. I probably put hot dogs in the gumbo. No, I don't do. I actually think that's disgusting. They don't really make gumbo like that up north. That's more of a southern Louisiana thing. It's a different culture.

You just made my point. But I'm saying it's a different, it's a different Louisiana culture. No, no, no. You have your culture. That doesn't mean things die. It's just a different culture. The culture that I grew up, the tradition of Louisiana that I grew up in. We're back.

You just made my point. They don't make gumbo up there. That's what you said. Yeah, it's a different culture. I don't respect it. It's the problem. Well, I think. that means you don't respect me.

That's not true. You're funny. See, but see, Dallas. Dallas. Dallas and Houston. Not the same. Oh, don't get me started on Chicago. I'm obsessed with the black culture in these places.

Like Atlanta, Chicago, Harlem, these rich areas of black people doing they black things. Chicago don't even have hoods. They got kingdoms. There was so much organization there. and stuff like that. All of these people that took their own cultures

and made it into this beautiful thing, their own inspirations. God damn it. It exists everywhere. It exists in the Bay. Exists in LA. Yeah, it exists everywhere. Name a place we don't talk about.

For black culture. For beautiful black people. You know what one place? Like St. Louis. Oh, hell now. We definitely talk about them. Not really. We should more.

Yeah. We don't really talk. I mean, we kind of talk about the DMV, but not really. Oh, come on. The DMV, we definitely talk about this. But do we talk about the culture? They got Kevin Doran.

We talk about, we talk about the culture. We just talk about like what's happening. That's what I'm saying. We don't really get into that. The DMV is one of the richest black cultures that exist. They know what's going on. I feel like what I'm thinking about is more places like, if you, I want to talk. Nashville.

Yeah. Nashville has, they call it Cashfield. Like they have a whole culture there. Young Buck. Interesting. If you like a, if you're a black person and you from like Portland. What's the culture? Well, reach out to us.

Like, if you're from Boise, Idaho, what's y'all doing? The 15 of y'all is hanging out. Like, what if you're in places that we don't know what's going on? What about the black people in Phoenix? Phoenix. What happens in Phoenix? Or where there's a lot, and we don't talk about, like, Connecticut. Connecticut has a lot of black people.

Is that true? Yes. Yeah, that's what happened to Aaron Hernandez. Connecticut has a lot of black people. I can start hanging out with them. It's tough. Yeah, but, you know, I just got into the whole. thing.

You know, just before we move on, you guys, a lot of talk about the Black Panthers. We touched on it very briefly. Let me tell you, Birdsong and the Black Lion movement and what they're doing, very important to understand what it is that you are supporting. So I think that they are going to be able to either make the case to people about what their missions, goals and aims are. or people will see through it.

I believe that a lot of this divisiveness is pathetic. Honestly, I'm not going to tell anybody how they should utilize their legacy. I'm not going to tell I would love for both. Because I want to understand why it's such a problem. So I would like, and I have not

done any deep research into it by any means. I've just seen it at a surface level, but I would love to bring somebody, they don't have to come on together because I'm not trying to do all of that. but to understand both so like people can get like a full context of what's happening. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think I understand the protection of the legacy.

I do. I also think that for a lot of us, some of the conversations that I've been hearing aren't useful. The conversations that in a perfect world or even in a good one, the conversation would be around educating younger people who want to take up through, the tradition of the Black Panthers into some of the things that the government did to fracture that organization and pull it apart, how they will be attacked, what some of the pitfalls would be. And even in that mentoring, in that brotherhood, that fellowship, you would be

able to kind of see whether or not younger folk were doing the things that they are doing for the right reasons. So I'm excited about new movies. yet led by younger people. And I'm always fascinated about some of the factions that exist, why we are just so hard on one another and all of that. But the story of the Black Panthers specifically, I really encourage you guys. Even if you don't have time for the scholarship,

if you don't want to read a book, if you don't want to do any of that stuff, which sounds like ridiculous to even say, watch a couple of docs, understand the intentionality that the American government used to pull apart this organization. Understand some of the issues that were being had inside of the Panthers, some of the revolutionary mindsets and how they dealt with the treatment of women inside the organization,

some of the things that they overcame, just really understand what the government was willing to do to make sure that you did not look at your society, in a different way. I don't know. I think people made, there was infighting and all of that stuff.

Like there was purpose in assassinating, jelling, and destroying this group of black nationalists and internationalists that wanted to stand up

for their own communities. In Oakland, by the way, in Oakland in the bay. Goes right to win. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandulul Predict. predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus.

Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. How should we start the show today? What should we do?

What should we do? off the top of my brain. But like what? Oh, you want to talk about Malania Trump? Did you see it? Are you going to see it? It has not come out yet. It comes out.

Does it come out? Well, as they'll be listening to, it'll be out. It comes out Friday. You're going to check it out? I will not. Why don't you go see it? Why would I? Because you support women.

I do support women. No, you don't. I do support women, but it doesn't mean that I have to support Malania. I'm going to see it. You should, because I know your curiosity is getting the best of you, but you're going to, like, the idea of buying a ticket that contributes. contributes to Melania, Trump, the administration, whatever it is they're trying to do here.

I'm not doing it. I'm not gonna go watch it in the theater, but I will watch it. Okay. There's this app, bootleg shit. Okay. It's funny because Melania is doing a press tour and I feel like it's the most that we've gotten from Melania.

You know, usually like we're just told about her or what she's doing or if she is giving a speech, She's stealing somebody else's words. We don't hear a lot from her. She's doing the press store. Have you seen it? No. There's nothing shocking, as I'm about to say this.

I'm sure this is shocking to you. There's nothing interesting, riveting. I cannot find one ounce in me to care anything about Melania Trump. I saw a clip of her on Fox News. They were asking her, what's your favorite time of the day? You can't find one. other question. You can't promote Melania in any other way. That lets me know

that there's nothing there. Now, I might be interested in her persona prior to getting with Trump or how she got like, that might be, you know, a little salacious and interesting. But her as a first lady, it's following her, her first, the 20 days, I guess,

leading up to her second term in the White House. Yeah. Who's directing it? Do you know who's directing it? Who's directing it? Brett Ratt. Oh shit.

Now if that don't tell you everything you need to know, guys, Brett Ratner, big Hollywood producer. Was he a director too? Yeah, he was the man. But producer director, Rush Hour. Rush hour movies. Guys start, know where guys start? Hip hop. Music videos.

Music videos. Has not directed anything since 2014. Why? Me too. Me too. Women came together. Multiple women like Olivia Munn. accused him of sexual assault and harassment.

He has not done anything until this movie. He's got Epstein ties. He's been living in Israel. He's come back because he thinks this is going to be his entrance back, I guess, into the industry. If this doesn't say everything about the Trump administration that the person who Melania says, this is a man who could really see her vision. That's why she picked him. He's a predator.

Now, of course he denies it all. I have to say that. Yeah. But he's a predator. That's the director. He'll be back. Interesting thing about... Oh, he'll be back after this.

Yeah, he'll be back. Do you know why? Why? Because I already believe that there was a quid pro quo for this. Something happened and maybe we didn't pay attention to it. What movie did President Trump demand that Paramount put into production? Guys remember this? Who can answer to this question?

Bernard? Oh, Rush Hour 4. Rush Hour 4. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Who directed those movies? Yes, yes, yes. And did Paramount agree to it, right? Yeah, Brett Radner.

Yeah, Brett Radner directed those movies. So he's going to be won it. So he's going to be two and done. Two and done, whatever. I don't know how that works with what's going on to skydance and all of that stuff like that. But I do know that President Trump said, hey, Rush Hour is one of my favorite movie franchises. He then commanded his vassals at CBS and Paramount to put, rush hour four into production and then rush hour four was put into production or at least greenlit

in some sort of way. Who knows if that movie ever sees the light of day. If it does see the light of day, I would assume that Brett Ratner would direct the movie. And if he is directed in the movie, the question is, is it, you know, payback or whatever? Oh, shooting this summer in Saudi Arabia and China, $100 million plus budget. I don't know if anyone had asked for rush hour for, but it's happening now, I bet you that Brett Radner is some way either directing or look that up whether he's directing Natasha Direct, if he's producing

what's going on with Brett Radner in so far as this. I have thoughts about Melania before we move on. Do you know how we talk about the sort of the degrading of the American leader?

Melania actually represents the sort of degrading or the eroding of the quality of not just the leader, but the first lady as well. You can see there's connective tissue between Melania Trump and Donald Trump

insofar as them being the first family. Tell me what I mean. So if you look at the two first ladies prior to Melania Trump, you had Hillary Clinton and you have Michelle Obama. Now, we can talk about Hillary Clinton, Hillary Clinton as much as we want. Laura Bush. Laura Bush before that, right?

So I wanted to talk about the Democrats, but let's put Laura in there. No, it's my fault. So let's put Laura in there. Let's say Hillary, Laura, and then Michelle Obama. Look at all three of those ladies. Laura Bush, educator. Yeah. Right?

Accomplished lady. Hillary Clinton, for all of the Hillary Clinton shit that we can talk about, for all of the stuff that we don't like, and the Clintons, to me, are mascots. for the type of neoliberal, centralized, centrist Democrats that I've come to despise, right? It's just a fact, I'm sorry, I know that pisses you guys off,

pinko-socialist talk from Ben. And then you obviously have Michelle Obama. You have three people that in American society, you would have to connect yourself with ladies like this in order to be taken seriously as a president. In order to be taken seriously as a president, you'd have to connect yourself with women

who were accomplished, women who were inspiring. Inspiring. Yeah. I want to be very clear on this. I'm not making value judgments. I'm not making value judgments about how people live their lives. I'm not.

But Melania Trump is a trophy wife. Mm-hmm. and a trophy wife comes from a part of American society where the only thing that matters about your wife is how pretty she is.

It's like what's legitimately on the outside. So the only thing that matters. For Donald Trump, when he was walking into a room, so I have to completely you have to trade them in and get a new one every now and again. For Donald Trump, when he's walking into a room, the way he's being judged by the rest of the guys in the room, It's not on the capability of the woman that is at his right or his left.

That's not what that's about because she's another thing. She is another acquisition. The thing that he's being judged on is how she looks. Of course. It is how beautiful she is. Even the story of I met her in this Eastern Bloc country, brought her over here. Look how amazing she looks. Look at all that stuff.

That's the thing. That's the most important thing. And so if you are searching for something more in Melania Trump to make a documentary about, it's probably going to be difficult to find it because that's not what Donald Trump was looking for when he chose Melania Trump. What he was looking for when he chose her was somebody that he can bring into a room with the rest of the Wall Street guys and go, look how crazy she look, right? Look how what this thing is. when I kind of bring this back to what we're talking about in our leaders is that for Barack Obama,

George Bush, even Bill Clinton, for somebody who wanted to lead, there had to be calculation in the person that you chose, somebody that was going to be somebody that you could invest into, that can invest in you, that made an American family that looked like they were worthy of the perch of the White House. And I'm not saying that's why these men married these women. I'm saying that these men took themselves seriously in terms of their careers, even George W. Bush, and that's the type of women that they ended up choosing. Donald Trump made a transactional choice when he married her, in my opinion. And now she's up there and it's not shit to her.

There's nothing to it. And it also kind of reflects, I'm sorry if this is unfair to people or if this is uncomfortable with people that I'm commenting on a woman like this. It also reflects the superficial nature in which Donald Trump has lived his life the entire time he's been in the public eye. I don't think you're talking down. I think that you actually said that very well. It's very true. Melania Trump, you could make an argument that as an educator with Laura Bush and the path that Hillary Clinton took in law and policy and politics.

And same with Michelle Obama, that they all had careers that was aspiring them to be public speakers, to speak in front. of people, there's a presence there. Melania Trump was allegedly a model, if whatever, however you want to call that. I guess we're being very general in the term modeling, or with the term modeling career, but that was never her goal is to be front facing in front of a camera speaking, to be silent, to be seen, not necessarily heard from. I don't think that that's wrong to say. I think that that is the career choice that, that she made. And you could say that as well as who she chose to marry. So doing a whole film on her, I mean, like 20 days or her doing a press tour where there's

not much to her. And she's literally the least interesting person I've ever seen in front of camera. $70 million. So a $40 million budget and then a $35 million marketing budget. We'll see if that. But look, that entire deal from Amazon, just to be fair, that was, a payoff from Bezos and Amazon to the Trump administration.

All of your tech oligards, all of your people that make all of the stuff, and we use it all, and some of the stuff we need it more than others, all of them got right in line and right in bed with the president and all of his stuff, and that's why I hope that there is significant action to reduce that group of people,

your technocrat oligarch Tim Cook Mark Zuckerberg Elon Musk class I really hope that there's something that we can do to put the handcuffs

on just how much influence they have on American and world culture moving forward I can't see that pulling back Well we'll see who has the balls to do it We'll see if Anybody has the political will And the balls to do it

We'll see if they do it I just also want to say and I know we know this, that Trump only cares about Trump, but man, you don't care about your wife. Because you're setting her up for failure. This is a, this is,

I know the just, I get the transaction between Amazon, Jeff Bezos and, you know, like him to Trump, but doing it through a Maloney film, you really don't care about your wife. This is so.

I don't think that Trump would know the difference. I don't think he has any taste. No. I think a lot of times when Trump says, I think this thing is actually good. Trump, he actually. I don't think he, and maybe, maybe they're living in a bubble.

I mean, he, you know, not to throw out the term narcissists, but I do think that he is very self-serving and only cares about things himself. I'm saying this highlights it even more because you really don't realize how you're setting up your wife to look, to be embarrassed. That's what this is right now. Every headline is embarrassing, whether it's a press tour, whether it's ticket sales, whether it's a country saying we're not even going to show this film here. You are setting your, like, it's actually really sad for her.

Not that I feel sorry for her. It's just sad. You like it. I think she's got it going on. Wait, what? Nothing. That was said under my breath. Nikki Minaj is back.

She's, um, Donnie, Donnie, you, you know, what's going on here? I mean, you said it,

she, I mean, she didn't go away. She just reappeared at a U.S. Treasury event in D.C. This was yesterday, two days,

uh, Let's listen to what she had to say. Hello. Well, I don't know what to say, but I will say that I am probably the president's number one fan, and that's not going to change. And the hate or what people have to say, it does not affect me at all. It actually motivates me to support him more. And it's going to motivate all of us to support him more.

We're not going to let them get away with bullying him and, you know, the smear campaigns. It's not going to work. Okay? He has a lot of force behind him. And God is protecting him. Amen. She had to even laugh. She had to even laugh after it.

June 20th, 2018. Shout out to consciously for putting this up. I came to this country as an illegal immigrant at five years old. I can't imagine the horror of being in a strange place and having my parents stripped away from me at the age of five. This is so scary to me. Please stop this. Can you try to imagine the terror and panic these kids feel right now?

And there's a picture of kids lying on the ground at the detention center. That was Nikki Monat. eight years ago, seven and a half, eight years ago. I'll ask you this question. I'm not going to even go on a rant about Nikki because I've already done it. Nothing has changed. I feel the exact same way. I don't even care.

But that's how I feel. My question to you is I don't believe that Nikki really has any influence. I don't believe that Nikki Minaj when we saw her at, Turning Point USA with Erica Kirk. We see her walking out hand in hand with Donald Trump now, talking about people bullying him and, you know, getting her Trump card and, you know, pledging to contribute certain money, pledging she hasn't done it yet, to help fund Trump accounts. I don't know if she has enough influence at this point, not to be taken seriously,

but to where it encourages people to follow suit and support Trump in the same way. they might support Nikki, right? Like they might say, which I got a lot of heat from the first time we talked about her. They might say, stop talking about Nikki. Don't say those things. You know, these are personal attacks on Nikki. And so they'll stand up for her, people who still follow her, but not to the point where I believe that she's having the influence of creating a movement towards Donald Trump. I don't think that.

So that's why I'm so flipping about this because I don't believe that this is effective. Do you? I don't think so. I don't think that it is, but I also don't know so much that that matters. What matters then with this to you? A couple of things matter. Number one, I felt like this was really bad for Kanye. Why?

So Kanye comes back and he apologizes. He apologizes, I'm sorry, all of that stuff. And then two days after, two days. Nikki does this. And everybody who was like, ah, man, maybe we should go easy on Kanye. They go, nope, nope, because I remember this.

This is how it started. And we, this is the same thing. I remember this. I remember this same thing. That tweet came from 2018. Me and Kanye's interaction came in 2018. And Kanye meeting the president and doing all of that stuff that was right around that same time.

So it's interesting that she was on that then and he was on that then. So I think for a lot of people, for myself, I was like, ah, I remember how it started. This is where it began. And for a lot of people, there's going to be an echo there where they go, this is someone who doesn't seem like, and I'll be honest and try to also be sensitive, that they are completely. in their right mind right now. And they are in a position where their platform is, and, you know, their past and their star status is being used by the administration. And when Kanye would be talking, centering Trump or talking to Trump, should I say,

talking about Trump, to Trump, whatever, it didn't seem like there was a real understanding of what was happening. And with her, it's the same way. I'm not excusing it. I'm saying to me, that was like a shock to my system to where I was like, this is a thing that I've seen before and it can get really, really bad. It can go even further than how far that it's already gone. It can get to a point.

We can start with Donald Trump and then it can end in the iced-style swastika. This is like a road. It's a journey. It's something that happens. I think a lot of things about this. I think, number one, I want celebrities to understand that right now when you join, the maga wing of the celebrities, that's the chilling circuit. Like this, this, I'm just being for real and that's not a diss to people that was on

the chilling circuit. Like the maga wing of celebrity, you at the party with Dean Kane and Chris Rock. Yeah. This is not, this is Nikki Minaj like essentially ending her own career as a mainstream, likeable, digestible, pop figure. This is her doing this. I'm seeing right now Stacey Dash hop around and

try to be cute, beautiful Stacey Dash like we knew her before. That's gone forever. You ruined that. And I tried to have this conversation before. When you pick that side and you are as committed to it as some of these celebrities are, everything that happens

over there, people associate that with you and it's very hard to come back from it. Unless you're Kanye. Well, Kanye is... And we'll see, but, I mean, I feel like, you know, you'll say two days later, she came out and did this. Two days later, he also announced the date for his new album. Right.

Two days after his letter. I mean, Kanye obviously was sitting down, smiling with Trump, endorsing him, all the things. I mean, he was one of the first that we really saw do it. And I feel like we don't talk about that as much anymore, obviously, because he's done so many. any more racist and bigoted things, but Kanye, you could make an argument, was the first. And I don't know. I just, yeah, I didn't make the argument.

So, but in regards to, because like, you're calling out Nikki, obviously huge name, super influential. You spoke on the podcast about what she's meant to so many people, you know, just her presence and how different she was. And she spoke to people in a way and they felt seen in a way that they had before by a celebrity like that. I mean, you're saying she's done. No, no, no, no.

She's ending her career. No, no, no. I'm very, she's ending her career in a certain way. Like not, this is, she will now be able to go and perform at Mar-a-Lago, at the MAGA stuff. She's ending her career in terms of being, in my opinion, there are other, there are other rappers who are Trump supporters. and those rappers who are Trump supporters haven't gotten behind the Trump movement in this way, right? But for somebody like Nikki,

who is on stage at Turning Point USA, who is almost a de facto part of the administration, for somebody like that that's doing something like this, this to me puts you in the, like I said, kid, rock, Dean, Kane, Vanilla, Ice level of celebrity.

there is a cohort that she is going to be with. It doesn't end her career overall. Very few things can when there's as many eyes and ears as the internet provides. It does, however, end her career with a certain group of people who forever, forever, whatever reason, are going to associate her with this. Kanye's journey is an interesting one and that's an interesting point. If you remember, Kanye was as effective at laundering the Trump stuff as he was at doing it in the first place. The first thing that he came back with was Sunday service after that. And it was God and it was Jesus and it was, I have turned over my entire life to God.

I went crazy for a little while. He comes back out of that, but kind of stays on it for a long enough time for you to believe that. He had gone nuts and he had said and done a lot of things that maybe his mental health were making him say, but he found salvation in God. He found salvation in Jesus. And he was fighting this battle and you can kind of connect with it. Maybe Nikki can come out and do that same type of thing. I will say this, though, there is something different here at the moment that she's choosing to do this. she's choosing to do this at a time

when the administration is historically unpopular historically unpopular like even with the independence and the people that support I saw Andrew Schultz and Akash like rip Trump and all of that. Joe Rogan still kind of on his side. So historically unpopular

Tim Dillon all the podcast bros that have come out so she's getting down with this at really a lot low point, in my opinion, for the popular project of Maga-Trumpism. Does that mean that Nikki Minaj won't be able to come back to a very forgiving black community or world community and go, hey, whatever, whatever? It doesn't, but it's certainly a choice to me from her. No, it's definitely a choice, but I just think of it in the Kanye sense.

I think if Kanye is able to come back, because I think you could make an argument that he's done worse than Nikki and you know Nikki might keep going we don't know but if Kanye can come back can come back

can tell you something else though Nikki Minaj is a big big big star it's levels to this I don't want to take it here but what do you mean what do you mean if there's levels to this because

why are the levels to it um is it in any way gender specific could be I was like I don't want to go there. But. But.

So it could be that all of this is a calculation in it. But Nikki Minaj is a big deal. There is a golf of importance, reverence, meaning to people. You made the argument. Between Nikki Minaj and Kanye West. A golf of that. Like what I tell you for as big as Nikki is and for as much as, you know, she's worked with Kanye and all of that stuff like that

but there's a gulf between the two people. People have a difficulty letting go of Kanye West that I do not think that they are going to have when it comes to Nikki Minaj. I just don't think, I think to her fans, they are fighting the barbs. A lot of the barbs are fighting a battle amongst themselves. But for a lot of people, it's just,

they don't, all of the lights, that shit is not the same. I mean, I'm just being for real. It's tougher. We'll see. It's tougher. I will say this, though. Nikki has now, I guess, got into Trump gold card or whatever like that.

I want to say just something real quick. You know, hip hop in it of itself, I joke about this, but we really have to have a conversation. Hip hop in it of itself seems like it is on its own course. there was a time where at least I felt, and maybe I'm wrong about this, there was a time where at least I felt that hip hop, the needs, the wants, the concerns,

and maybe I'm wrong about this of black culture and the black community where it was important to be aware of those as a rapper. It seemed like you. They were rapping about it. Some of them were, not all of them were, right? But, yeah, but I feel like that's where it started. Right.

Well, it was important to kind of at least care about your perception amongst the needs and the concerns of the black community. And even more than that, it seemed like it was important for hip hop to hold power to account. Remember, when I think about Ice Cube, you know, I wrote a letter to the president. when I think about, you know, fuck the police, I think about hip hop being a vehicle that held the president to account that kind of looked at American power and went, this is what they're not giving us, this is what they're not saying, this is not, this is what they're not doing,

just always, it seemed like to me, like not a lot of it, should I say. Now, I will say that what that actually, the president has actually changed that, was not Donald Trump. The president that actually changed that relationship between hip hop and American political power was actually Barack Obama.

Oh, I was just looking at that. No, no, no. It was actually Barack Obama. Barack Obama was the one that became the president that, you know, you want to, you know, there were hip-hop songs to bottom and all that stuff.

But even that, though, even that was in a tradition of celebrating blackness and what it was blackness, right? For sure. For sure. There's been a commodification of hip hop music and a dedication to just simply attaining in hip hop that's going along with the concept of chasing the bag that has in a lot of ways totally disintegrated what I feel like

is a lot of rappers sense of responsibility to the places in when they came and I'm not just talking about political movements or who you might support whatever. I'm talking about people being irresponsible about things like Black Lives Matter or mass protests, people being irresponsible with things that have to do with race. I'm just in the irresponsibility on behalf of that class of artists that has been really pronounced and very direct in the last 15, 20 years, right? it's there's no way around it there's no way around it that once all of this stuff became just about capitalism and chasing the back the sense of fuck who you support or what it is that you support

or what your politics are just the responsibility that exists with having a platform that you have two black people or two black movements where black people are being hurt that is gone Well, it's interesting that you say responsibility because I feel like before, and I'm not saying everybody, that there was this sense of, you know, like I'm here, I'm responsible, you know, like use my platform or talk about the community or give back or whatever it may be. I feel like the mindset has changed to your point in the last 20 years where it's really about how much money you make, what you look like, where you live, what you're driving, your relationship to being rich

and they're in this kind of this flipping attitude of well don't look in me as a role model that's not I'm like I'm just here to get a bag like it feels like that's what's popular that's what's important more than it is about the meaningful side of it

yeah and look you know I get it I think the there was always different parts of hip hop music always right the interesting thing about the career of Jay-Z is that he would outwardly discuss this schism within him.

Because there was never, ever, ever a portion of Jay-Z's career where there wasn't something more to Jay-Z than just, I'm the fly's guy. Like, there was nothing more, there was always something more, should I say, than just that. because those raps were grounded in his experiences, how he saw society and all of that stuff. I do think that people saw,

particularly him and other rappers like him, the lifestyle, the beautiful women, the pouring of the champagne. And I think that became the overall message of it, that that is what, the music brought to you. That is what success in the music brought to you.

If that, in fact, is the case. Hip-hop is dangerous, specifically dangerous to black people. If it's only about that. It's specifically dangerous to black people. It's a danger if it's only about that. Like, because when you chase the bag solely and specifically, the problem is you never know where the bag is going to take you. That's true.

You never know who's bed the bag is going to bring you to. You never know who's dick. The bag is going to put in your mouth. You never know what stage the bag is going to put you on. You never know what the bag is completely dehumanized. It's you just don't know where it's going to take you. And if all you're doing is chasing that. If you're not chasing your betterment as a person,

the betterment of your community, the responsibility of your community. If you're not chasing something more than just the bag, I'm letting you know the back isn't a good father, the back in the good mother, the back in the good OG. Take it for somebody. Take it from experience. Well, if all you're going for it after the bag, it's almost like selling your soul. But I do want to make this point, though, I think also the responsibility

that we talk about may change, or not may change, did change, or the messaging change, because the audience. is different. So I think that it like you look at these rappers now and they go to these shows. It is very hard. I'm talking about a Kendrick show. It's there are a lot of non-blacks in the audience. Always been that way.

I'm not. Okay. Go look at a public enemy show from like 91, 92. When I tell you it is always been that way, always been that way. Always. All right. Well then I guess that takes away my point. I just feel like I'm not.

saying that they didn't necessarily consume it, but I feel like it's consumed maybe more so outwardly, publicly than it was before. And I think that if this is who your audience is and this is who's buying it or this is what makes you popular or takes you to the next level, then your messaging is going to be targeted to more of a general audience or towards something that they'll consume or they can relate to more than it's going to be for us. I don't think it started that way. I don't think it was always diverse. I think it's, I mean, you know, I've never, seen a picture of a public enemy concert in the 90s that you're talking about. But

I just think that the messaging change to reflect who's consuming it and what's going to make you more popular. Yeah, see, my problem... I just don't think they care anymore. It's why Yadi can say things, make a joke about George Floyd. Yeah, my problem with that is that, like, by time hip hop became one of the best-selling genres, white people

had to have, like, bought into it, right? It was just a part of it. Like, they... It's a part of the numbers. You have to have... If Snoop's going to sell 800,000 and $1,000. week and then the next week come back and sell another $800,000 which by the way

every time I think about that that blows my fucking mind. Doggy style comes out. Doggy style goes 800 grand in the first week is out. By the time it comes back, it's another 800,000 Snoop was out of here. That's so crazy. We'll even talk about that that much.

White people got to be buying music, right? Like it's just a fact. By that point, that's 93 or whatever. My people got to be buying, 93, 94. Why people got to be your music. What I'm saying is that to me there is something and I'm not, because even those guys right, they were up against it. They were up

against Calvin Butsy, Dolores Tucker and all of that. But the conversations that we were having with them were about their responsibility as members of the community in the music. We were having conversations with them about how

responsible they needed to be to the communities that they came from in their music. And those conversations We're a lot of times being happened, what were happening, should I say, intra-communally. Older black people to young black people. Sometimes they were happening with Tipper Gore and all of those people like that and trying to get Uncle Luke and all that shit. But we were having conversations because there was some thought that they needed in some way to speak to us and about us, even if we grant them their artistic freedom in ways that were meaningful. and they had to be at least on our side

and that really if the structures of American power try to like choke their art that we would protect them that we would say no government you can't do that to death row no government you can't do that to no limit these young brothers are talking about the realities young brothers and sisters is talking about the realities in their communities y'all can't do that to them

man like I'm sorry man the majority of the rappers that to me are big and matter will do anything for a fucking check. Yeah. They'll do anything for a fucking check. They'll go anywhere, do anything, dab anybody, say anything, be with anyone, hang with anybody, do anything for a fucking check. I realize this is coming from the guy from TMZ. But I'm just telling you what I see.

And it's not just about Nikki being on the stage. It's about people who are still fucking with Aiden Ross. Even after all of this stuff happening, who is who inside the fucking vanguard of hip hop is going to be like, yo? That they'll actually listen to. Who is going to be like, yo, it's things that's good for us and it's things that's bad for us. It's stuff that matter that should matter and other shit. Like who's going to do that?

Like who is going to be that person? Like, is there going to be a movement inside of this music that is so important to black people? Is there going to be a movement inside of this music where people actually give a fuck about what it is that's going on in the places that made them and the people who made them or helped make them? I don't know. But it just seems like one fucking rapper disappointment after another. Yeah. All right. Let's take a break.

This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

Real quick, as we're doing this podcast, they're voting on DHS funding. So 60 need it So they need some Democrats to vote on the DHS funding The way that this works is this guys Okay The Democrats apparently Are trying to reach a deal To maybe provide some stopgap funding

While they negotiate Zari passing a house While they negotiate I guess more durable, longer-standing reforms. Some of the reforms they want, banning agents from wearing masks, body cameras, and clear IDs,

requiring warrants for enforcement actions, independent investigations of abuses. Now, this vote is happening right now, so we don't know how this is going to go. Republicans have 53 votes. They need 60 votes to overcome this filibuster. They're going to need some Democrats, like I said before. The negotiations involve like possible short-term funding stuff.

If this doesn't happen, not the entire government, but DHS will be shut down. What is in DHS? ICE, CBP, Border Patrol, you guys know those, those are the bad guys. TSA, FEMA, and USCIS. So there would be interruptions and the pay of ICE agents. training would stop. Some investigations would probably stop. Some administrative processing would probably stop. Certain immigration services would slow or halt. The airports would stay open. The TSA, which a lot of hardworking Americans who seem to be in the crosshairs of all of this

back and forth political in fighting or fighting in Washington, they would once again go to working without pay while the Democrats use whatever little political power they have to compel Trump to stop sending ice out to our streets. All right. It looks like they voted. What was the vote? 55, 45. The Democrats did not budge.

Democrats did not budge. And eight Republicans joined them. Eight Republicans joined the Democrats. So this is breaking news while we were doing this. that the Democrats in this situation, do we, did they give any explanation? This is breaking right now as we're doing this,

that they talk about what it is that they are asking for from the Trump administration? I'm not, I'm like reading this as I'm looking at a political article right now. We're doing this in real time. We're doing it live. As of now, they're still going to vote though.

So I guess they're still negotiating. They have until Saturday morning before the guy. government was shut down. So they have a little time to be able to get what they want from the Republicans. All right. The bill is blocked. The reforms, they asked for these reforms,

Republicans wouldn't do it. Is this enough for you? The Democrats reforms to then fund. Enough in what way? I mean, yeah, is it enough. I mean,

if they get these, so here's it. Because what are the reforms that? The reforms are the ones that I read earlier. Okay. So like, once again, we'll read them again. And this is the questions you guys should ask yourself. The demands are banning agents from wearing masks.

Oh, I saw all this. Sorry. It's not enough. I read it before. It's not enough. It's not enough. Okay. So then do you view voting to fund DHS with ICE being a part of it in any way as a bridge too far for you?

When you do the research and you listen to people talk about the hiring practices of DHS, when you see some of this reporting coming out about who is within it and the affiliations they have to other groups, when you see that even though they came out and announced today that the two officers who fired their guns to kill Alex Preti are on administrative leave. The other officers that were still involved are still out there. And I would argue that the administrative leave was only happened because of the pressure that is happening from the people in Minnesota that they're putting out there. before it was reported that they were just repositioned to somewhere else. So the thought process within DHS is to reposition people who killed someone who was not even a threat. That shows me that there are deeper problems.

Like, yeah, wearing the mask, the body cameras, sure that helps. But it is so rotten to its core from the top to the bottom that to me, this isn't enough. Well, obviously, I So I say abolish. Let me give you two different frames or realms of reality, should I say. Obviously, I don't want to fund it. And I believe that

ICE not being funded would destroy ICE. I think that ICE not being funded right now with the type, the personality profile of the ICE agents that are involved in this, these guys not being paid with some of the pressure that's already on ice in terms of public pressure.

If you halt some of this stuff, if you halt some of these actions, I think that you'll see probably mass defections of ice agents and cities all over America. We will see then if somebody tries to work, go around or something like that. There are all kinds of illegal ways that they could end up trying to fund these guys and do all of this stuff. We'll see, you know, just how much infrastructure there is. on the other side to keep these gentlemen paid or keep them involved. I believe right now the morale is probably getting pretty low.

And the public perception is at an all-time low. And if you hit them in their pockets right now that you could deal a significant, significant blow to the long-term and definitely the near future of ICE operations in the country. That's what they should do. that's not what they're going to do. They're going to cut a deal and they're going to find a way to fund it with all of those reforms in it. They're going to do that

and then this is what's going to happen. The same thing that's happened a couple of times before is going to happen again. And what you are going to find out is that these reforms are not enough because in many different cases in American life right now,

reform is not enough. Correct. Greg, I assume you're referring to police reform. Lots of different types of reform. To me, the reform is the R word. Oh. That's the R word.

A lot of these systems need to be broken apart and put together as something else. Reform to me is it's a way of long, of pulling a wool over people's eyes and making anything that you're doing stuff. Some things can't, like, I guess there are a couple of things that can be reformed. But like, not, but this, I don't believe.

Okay, like you're wearing, okay, they're barred from wearing their mask. All right. Requiring them to wear body cameras, what happens if the camera doesn't work? What if they say it's broken in the process? What if they turn it off? What's going to happen? Like, it's just, there's just so many things. Like, it's, when I say it's rotten to its core, it's some of the reporting that has come

out specifically of what they're doing in Minnesota, right? In the last week, there have been 60 habeas cases that are around 60 habeas cases that were filed in Minnesota. All of them, except for one, were either, those people were, those immigrants were released because it was determined that they are allowed to be here. They're here on some kind of asylum. There were DACA immigrants that were or DACA or streamers I should say that were here. Only one person was denied and that person came over here legally. And the only reason he was, his habeas case was or petition was denied is because of all the crime that even though he came illegally that he had committed.

He was a criminal. But my point is that you have these people out there detaining, kidnapping, because that's what it is, people who are illegally allowed to be here. none of these reforms in my opinion, even if you're setting rules around warrants, right? None of these rules in my opinion are really going to get down to what is happening within the streets of this country. Because the people who are executing this are being empowered by someone like a Tom

Holman who's there now who literally said the second day that they dropped down in Minnesota, somebody's going to die. And they did. That's the problem here. So this isn't going to cut it. And if you're really paying attention to what's happening and you're passionate about the fact that people are being kidnapped because they're legally supposed to be here,

when people are dying, then this will upset you because this is not enough. Because who's enforcing these things? Well, I think some of this stuff, well, a part of it calls for maybe an independent agency to be shut up, set up to enforce some of the stuff. Like when I just read it, some of the stuff calls for an independent, whatever, it doesn't matter. I don't think that I should be funded.

I think that if we have the opportunity right now, seeing what we've seen on the streets of American cities, not just in Minneapolis, but in Chicago and other places where people have been shot unfairly detained, where children have been sent to detention centers by ICE, all of this stuff has to stop. And one way to stop it is stop funding it. I'm very empathetic to the people that are working TSA and other things that would be affected by this shutdown. But the Democrats have to hold firm on this to me. I am guessing that there's eventually going to be a deal of some sort. I don't think that Trump is going to relent. Well, the Republicans are going to relent from their belief that I'm going to. ICE should be on the streets. So the Democrats are probably going to have to make some sort of deal.

There's going to be levels of disappointment here that probably exists. Nobody voted for it today, though. Can I just say how crazy it is that two of the reforms are setting, one of them is setting rules around warrants. How did that not exist before? The other one is creating a uniform code of contact and use of force rules. How did that not exist before? That's crazy that that's two of the reforms. Well, I think the warrants actually probably have existed. I think, well, they have, they have been doing it without having warrants. They've been doing it without having warrants because there's a process by which they get something that substitutes itself. It's an administrative warrant, an administrative warrant, which is like without a judge. Which is without a judge. And I think

what they want is to get rid of that probably and go back to following what's that. Oh, the constitution. Oh, does you remember? The slave owner was like, I want to make a set of laws so that we can is, oh, it's the Constitution. So they're probably thinking maybe they should kind of use that. Well, Supreme Court said that they could racially profile. It's tough. Call your local senators.

Rachel is going to explain how you guys can get in the fight against ice. Oh. Well, go to my page and do it. I mean, you can go to House. You saw that? I saw that video that child, man. Who are those people? Thoughts?

I hate it. You hate those kind of videos. I don't like them. Why would you hate it when people are saying... I don't hate that you did it. I hate those types of videos. So let me tell you why that video is meaningful. That video was with girls that I was on Nick's season with of The Bachelor.

So that's girls from season 21 of The Bachelor. The Bachelor, which we have talked about this show, which you have so amazingly named as there's a sector of it of the Bachelor clan. The Bachelor, a conservative audience, the Bachelor, where most of the times it's the minorities, which also was in this video, that are always speaking out. People are, a lot of them are connected to MAGA. I'm not going to say they all are. But they are, and they're too afraid to say anything. So one of the girls in the group had the idea that we should use our platforms to say ICE needs to abolish. You can hate those kind of videos all you want, but in that type of world where you don't see.

people coming together because they're constantly using their platforms to talk about the product that they're selling or the event that they went to or showing you their new clothes, whatever it may be. And it's not rooted in anything meaningful to me. It wasn't even my idea. I'm not going to take credit for it. My friend Astrid, who immigrated to this country when she was 13, lives in Canada now. Like she's American citizen who lives in Canada is like so horrified by it that she was like, we have to come together. So we sent out a text message. Myself, Astrid, Danielle, who is a nurse out of Nashville, she's white, sent out a text message to about 20 girls for my season. In the video, there's seven women that participate, including me.

Five of them are of color. All the women of color from that season of the 20 that were asked. Most of the people in that chat ignored it. I do want to give credit to a couple of girls who were like, I'm already posting. I'm not a big fan of The Bachelor. Audience has been a certain way to me. I don't want to incite that attention to my page, which is so fair.

But some other people were like, I've already reposted. I'm using my platform. Other people are going through some other things. But most of those women, including people that I call friend, ignored it. Oh, shit.

And for me, I think I wasn't going to say anything, but I think it's so important. Should I name the people who ignored it? I mean, should I name it? No, I don't know. If you, that's up to you.

Well, I think it's obvious. I think it's obvious. But this is what I will say. I know to the outside, somebody who's not attached to Bachelnation, you might look at it as whatever way that makes you feel like you don't like it. But the response, of course, you got people from Bachelor Nation who hate it. But the response has been like, this is how people should be using their platform when they can. And it was an opportunity for me, because I'm confronts.

to call out people that I call friends and saying, you know what, I would have had more respect if you would have responded in the chat and said, I don't agree with it. Not for me. Not comfortable. I got a job. I got a post about it. Like, whatever it may be. But to ignore it to me is the biggest problem of it all. And when I called them out about it, it was more about, well, I'm not educated on politics. We're in our fucking 30s. I'm 40. I'm the oldest of that class. To be in your 30s and say you don't understand, first off to politicize what is happening. I don't think that this is politics. I think that as I explained to them, that is what they try to tell you to give you fear to not speak out. It is a way of controlling you. To not care, to not know what's happening right now in the world, you can't ignore it, you can't escape it.

You are being willfully ignorant or you just don't give a fuck. And to me, that's frustrating to me for somebody that I call friend because I am trying to reason if I want that type of person in my life. It's not okay for you to just sit back and sit in your bubble because what I told those girls is the reason that you are able to do that is your privilege. Your privilege allows you to continue on in your life like nothing is going on when people are dying in the street. And of course, this has been happening. But for you to turn away, I don't know if I want to be affiliated with that. That's a problem. And they actually were pretty receptive to the ones that I talked to, what I had to say.

And I guess it's up to me to see how they move forward from that. Because I'm not going to pressure anybody that they had to be a part of the video. But I think it's very telling that it's all women of color and immigrant and then one other white woman that wanted to participate while the rest of you just continued on with your lives as if nothing else is going on because your privilege allows you to do that. Hmm. Interesting. And I was not going to say a thing, but like, fuck it.

But like, yeah, it's, you feel like Batch, it's very well said, by the way, do you, okay, to the point that you're talking about right now with the people, as far as the people wondering why, I just don't, I, there are a whole bunch of things that for a good cause that, you know, just I sometimes find them cringe, you know, this video wasn't cringe, but it wasn't, it was, it was, for me. It was important that it said abolish. No, no, no, certain things needed to be said. One, to tell people how they can call their senators.

Right. The other was, I want to be very matter of fact. I believe in abolishing it. I wasn't going to tiptoe around it and be like, you know, skirt around the issue. I don't think that we're in a place right now, as you said so well before on the podcast, where you, it's either this or that. Right. Once again, everybody has different jobs. You do your thing.

everybody does other stuff. Celebrities and people with platforms have to use their stuff. Obviously, you know, sometimes it is what it is, but I think your passion around this, just for everybody knows, all of Rachel's passion

in everything that she's passionate about is 1,000% real. I think what I'm more interested in is not actually the question around the video itself because the video is trying to do something good. So it doesn't matter who likes or who doesn't like it. I think I'm interested in the more fundamental question about

whether or not you're at the position in your life or anybody's at the position in their life that they can have friendships and relationships with people who stay silent in moments that feel this important. Yeah. And I want to be clear. Like when I was talking to them, I said, you know, in 2020, I was like, it was rough for me. I mean, I was looking on people's pages. Who's posting? Who's not? I wanted people to be as angry as I was. And that was a lot. I let that go. and I have matured and I realize that not everybody is going to use their platform in the same way as me, but they need to do something. So that's why I said, I'm not even against you saying I don't want to participate in this.

But are you not bothered by what's happening? Are you not having these conversations? And it was eye-opening me in some sense because some of the girls I talked to were telling me how their family is. Like, their family is very maga and very outspoken. And they were telling me how, you know, it's, I'm not saying that I agree with it, but just hearing the other side of it of how you care and love about somebody and you trusted somebody and they can believe these things.

So there's this conflict of almost like, it's hard for them sometimes to, like, publicly go out against their family. For me, that would not necessarily be the case. But I can understand that that is hard for you. And I appreciated hearing that perspective. And what I was trying to tell them is, I'm not trying to force you to do anything, but doing nothing is an issue for me. And so maybe it's not, I'm not saying you're not my friend, but it's like I have to restructure what my friendship may look like with you because I can't reason the way that you're behaving. And I really tried to say, you have questions, ask me, come talk to me. I'd be more than happy to explain to you certain things.

It's just you saying, I don't know politics, doesn't cut it. Do you know humanity? Do you have, do you not feel anything like an ethical obligation or your moral values being tested by what's happening right now? Or like that to me is the question. And I tried to explain to them that this is exactly what they want. And this is how they built their power by the exact way that you're acting. I said, if everybody sits in their privilege and does nothing, nothing will ever change. You can't.

I'm not directly impacted by exactly what's happening in Minnesota. but I'm not just sitting back and watching it happen either because I can't help myself. Right. Yeah. All right. And so you, so fuck them.

No, I didn't say that. No, that's what I'm saying. Because you got me going. That was Rach's most stirring speech. But fuck willful ignorance. But I don't like that.

You cannot be willfully ignorant. You change my mind on the video. I'll make one with all of the player proof. And then we're going to come out against this. You, that was really. really persuasive. Well, I don't want to take away.

But like what you, your passion is very, yeah. I just, I just, I, you know, like, no, no, no, no, my eyes are red from my lashes. No, no, no, no, I'm angry more than anything. None of no, no, my eyes have been read the whole, they've been like this whole podcast.

No, no, no, no. I grew up privileged, right? But I still walk the world as a black woman. Imagine if I was like, well, I didn't grow up that way. Like that stuff that doesn't affect me just because it's not right at my door. Like I just, I've just not built like that. And I would think that the circle of the people that I call friends are disturbed by these things. That's, I guess that's what I mean.

It's easy to look away. And that's, and I think that registered with them. I hope it did. They said it did when I said, you're doing it because you can. You have the privilege to look away. Yeah. You know what? We're going to talk about real quick about Ray.

then we're going to get out of here. We have Ashley Ellison. We're going to throw to that. Here's a deal. Very simple. It's hard to respect people who don't respect humanity. Just want everyone to think about this because we talk about old political differences and whether or not you should hang out with people and be friends with people and stuff like that.

Everybody has somebody in their life that you learn what they believe politically and then you like, damn, this is the same person I went to Funfair Park with in 1999 when I'm supposed to do not, right? I get that, I understand that. But I just want you guys to think, you know, you go into a restaurant with someone and somebody that you like, somebody that you're friends with, and then they treat the staff like shit.

You're in a store with someone. Somebody walks over, they treat the staff like shit. You're anywhere with anyone. They laugh at homeless people. They, even not even that dramatic. Just somebody that doesn't have respect for the condition of humanity. and what people are going through.

You are somebody special if you could be friends with somebody like that. If you can be friends with someone who sees somebody in trouble, in peril, who sees someone that is being fucked over and just doesn't care, doesn't want to get involved,

doesn't think it's worth the conversation, that's difficult. And increasingly what's happening in the political climate that we're living in by the extreme nature of some of this stuff, is that the very reality of being a free citizen of this country is being defined and redefined.

And if you think that someone getting shot on the streets of the community that they live in and then lied about in death by the people in power, if you think that's okay or that doesn't require a mumbling word, there's just going to be a lot of people that's going to be like, go fuck yourself and we're not talking about the tax rate you know we're not talking about

bro measles is back if you are pro measles nigga I'm not fucking with you sorry like measles is back I never heard somebody say pro measles bro meas like y'all like measles is back a lot of y'all

you're pro measles niggas and like if you if you pro measles I'm sorry bro we used to have a lot of fun hooping and we used to like we used to bro all of the stuff we've done you can't be I've been on the phone with some people and I've been like yo my nigga I'm not even going to name names because you some of y'all would be

disappointed I've been like yo bro like I'm not trying to tell you how to think but I'm begging you I need you to take 15 minutes and just like had a conversation with me real quick because what I'm getting right now just is not meeting

and you guys know I haven't really been that way I'm, you know, I've known all different types of people. I'm saying all of this stuff. I'm yes, and in you. I feel what you're saying. I completely understand what you're saying. Right now, you're becoming somebody that went along with the rise of the thing.

And if that's who you want to be, that's fine. But y'all don't have to have y'all own clubs. Chitlin circuit. Go to the kid rock Nicki Minaj party. They, they don't be. It's worse. They just, they don't even do that. They just pretend it's not happening.

All right, before we get out of here, well, first of all, Ashley Allison joins us right now. Let's get to that. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training. is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious

allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Tramphiara.com. This episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window?

Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli.

Crumbled bacon? Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. All right.

As a three-time, Rood 100 Honor-e, it's very important. I wanted to take this time to give thanks to the new CEO, owner? Owner CEO? Are you the CEO? No, I'm not. Owner, you ain't going to get a fourth.

time because you're not getting it right. I'm sorry. Owner of the route, Ashley Allison, a media entrepreneur, creator, advocate organizer, and thought leader. Jesus. I love it when people call themselves thought leaders. I did not write that. It's written for you.

Seriously bridges the gap between culture and politics. Very interesting. Senior advisor in the Obama Biden White House? Wow. Served as a national coalition's director for the Biden-Harris 2020 presidential campaign where she led nearly

500 staff to activate the most robust coalition of voters in the modern history who went on to get their asses kicked. I didn't, who? Oh, but like Kamala Harris, right? Yeah, I didn't work for that campaign. Now, how'd you work for that campaign? Would it have been different, do you think?

Probably not. Wow. I'm only one person. You're only one person. Thank you for joining us on higher learning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. You did forget to mention she's part of Delta Sigma Theta.

Is that true? Yes. Ready, yes. What, what, what, chapter? Yeah, chapter, yeah. Epsilon, Ohio State. Oh, wow. Okay, so let me ask you a question.

Are you sure? Mm-hmm. Hey, so. Oh. Okay, now it's all about us. Wait a second. Y'all didn't know. I know she was.

But she didn't know you were. A lot of people don't know that I am. A lot of people don't know that I am. Yeah, you didn't know she was. Wow. But see, I'm not in the thing, though. See, that tells me the Deltzes there are. I know.

I know. No. but I didn't know, you didn't know, you didn't know, you didn't know Rachel was any. I don't think you knew. I'm not taking any kind of offense to it. A lot of people don't know. And now we're locked in.

But see, this is where the mistake, this is, and you don't know this, because I know you think you know all about the D9 and you don't. The mistake would have been if I would have let her come here. Yes. And knowing she was Adelza. And never said anything. Can I ask you a question? That is the worst thing.

Now that we're back on this, can I ask you something? What? Because this, let me tell you how this whole D9 thing got started with me and Rachel. Okay. It got started. when I used to joke, I used to joke that Kamala Harris was going to be an AKA that was going to be present. And that that was going to be at least like a little, you know, that's funny to me.

It's funny to watch the rivalry or the competition between the Akas and the Deltas. You're taking your college days. We are proud to see what Kamala Harris has accomplished. Right. So you're proud of it. We're also proud of Katanghi Brown Jackson. I tell it every time. See?

I tell you. Why did you bring it up? Why did you bring it up? She brought it up because she knows. Because they're first. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

They're first. Okay. So we'll move. So there was, I'm just saying the AKs made it to the White House first. Always got there. Messy. Okay. So let's talk about, because I think we, we have done CNN together a bunch of times.

I want to talk about that whole media ecosystem. But the first thing I want to talk about is you in your new role as owner of the root, a very prominent black publication. What made you want to take over the root and what do you feel like the responsibility of black centered publications? What do you feel like that that responsibility is to the community at large? Yeah, you know, like we all have these microphones, but if we don't own them, they can go away at any given time.

And over the last five years, while I worked at CNN, I still work at CNN, but while I was starting at CNN, I really enjoyed that, but I also realized it's a small fraction of all that has to be said and all that can be said because they're covering everything from one side of the globe to the next. And so I just started to explore over the last five years, like, what would it look like to build something that I own, I co-led with other people of color, other women? And so this summer, I've been looking at a bunch of properties over the last three years to buy. And over the summer, this opportunity literally presented itself. It was probably one of the hardest things I did professionally in terms of I closed the deal in six weeks.

We realized that we were going to be the people in negotiations. And then I signed in six weeks. And if you know anything about acquisitions, that is a very compressed timeline. and I was always like I'm not going to be like TLC and like get robbed at this deal or like new edition and like I mean you know what I meant too when I said that

like I didn't want to get played so I read every word of every contract and then here we are now the responsibility is like it's a lot you know literally this weekend I was just like going to get my nails done and I turned on the news and like another person had been shot in Minneapolis and I was like it was a

Saturday and I was just like you're never off New Year's Eve you're like what's going on? You're never on. And I feel like a great weight in responsibility to tell these stories through a black lens and get it right because we are in a watershed moment in this country. And people will look back in this moment. I know people say that people will look back in this moment and be like,

what did you do? And how did you do it? And why did you do it? The roof, was it black owned before? So it started, was started by Henry Lewis Gates in 2008. But it was owned, it was partially owned by the Washington Post. So Henry Lewis Gates and Donald Graham co-founded it. So at that point it was Black-owned.

Then it was sold to Univision after like seven years. So not Black-owned. And then it was sold to a company, Geo Media, not Black-owned. And then we acquired it from Geo. Okay, so Black-owned. Yes. Taking over the route, like, what do you see the next chapter being for it now that it is Black-owned and you're the one that it's running it?

Yeah, we cover a lot of culture and politics. And I, as someone who comes out of politics, I know culture sets the tone for where people want to follow. So we're going to still do that, like Grammy's Weekend, all this stuff. But I think we have a responsibility to get back to its origin story, which was covering Obama. The route was founded. It launched like a week before Super Tuesday in 2008. Now, just go back to that time. Hillary, Obama, that was the week where it was like, who's going to be the next nominee?

And it was founded in that. So that was the origin story of it. And so we're going to get back to that. It's mostly all written. And we're going to bring video and podcasts, a lot of different new voices and contributors. And we're going to keep this Route 100 list going too. Is prestige black media dead? Meaning meaning when I was growing up, there were a lot of serious places.

You could go to get serious conversations about black culture. even Ebony, Jet, Essence, places like that were very meaningful in defining and discussing what black people had going on. Essence would set a beauty standard that black men and women could look at and aspire to. There was a sort of a cultural communal standard that was set in both Ebony and Jeff. It was meaningful. like those publications had a lot of weight. On your television, BET was a gigantic standard center.

There were artists that got played on BET and on MTV. Then there were just gigantic BET artists that did not get played. If you wanted to, you was all video sold. Right. You know, you weren't going to get on MTV. And that was very important for us being able to set standards. within ourselves. A lot of things have changed.

A lot. Media conglomerates have come in, bought up a lot of stuff. BT ended up becoming a Viacom property, changed the way they operated. Now, they're kind of on fumes. A lot of these other names only exists in branding. Essence is gigantic,

but the Essence Fest is probably the biggest part of it. The root is gigantic. The list is probably the biggest part of that, right? So the day-to-day exploration, of black culture through media on a prestige level, a prestige level. Not what, who said about whom

going on, all of that school, too. Does that exist anymore? Is that dead? I think it's dead across the board, not just in black media, honestly. I think if you look at like the days of Walter Conkite or the days,

we just don't have that anymore. I think the challenge in this moment that keeps me up at night is like, can you evolve yourself to meet the moment and how people get it? I don't like to blame everything on social media, and I don't think it's a bad thing, but social media has really democratized how people get their information, how people can set their

standards. And the question is, do people want one voice, one standard, one way of living? And the masses seem to be saying, no, we want some baselines, but we want a plethora of options to choose from. And so can you pick who you're going to be engaging with, with the root? and give them those options. Because I think sometimes people try and beat everything and then they're nothing. Yeah. And we can't do this.

I will say like the root is not the last property I want to acquire. So the root is going to serve a role in this ecosystem of properties. And it will have a standard. It might not be the standard that a 25-year-old wants to follow. And that's okay, right? It might be the standard that the millennials want. So, but I will say people don't know this. The route, we still get like 20 years.

12 million unique people to go to our website every month. Oh, wow. That's impressive. That's impressive. I mean, when you think about how people get news, yeah, 12,000 or 12 million, excuse me, I said 12 million people to go to our website. So it's like there is a following. They are loyal and they are telling us what they want and they want what you just said.

They want that place to say like you break news, you verify news, but most importantly, you make sense of the news. Yeah, for sure. What's a cultural, cultural conversation that we're avoiding that's actually key to political progress? Mm, girl. Well, I think we haven't really talked about why Kamala Harris loss. Okay. Oh, let's talk about it.

Right? And I think there are many layers to it. And I think that we don't want to talk about it because we have to have a family conversation first. then like brought in the family but still a family you know you got to like immediate family then you get the people who come to the family reunion sometimes sometimes they come sometimes they don't um and then there is a conversation we have to have with the greater public about how they engage with women how they engage with black women um and we haven't talked about it you know why do you think she lost i'm sorry no no go ahead no it's a good question

i think there's a lot of reasons why i think she lost i don't think she was was ever set up for success. From the day she became the nominee to the day, she was the four years she was in the White House, she got the hardest portfolios, immigration. Let me tell you, as someone who worked in the White House, you know the portfolios that, like, you know you love, but you know they're not going anywhere, voting rights.

Because I had that one. We did the voting rights anniversary. We went to Selma. We still don't have a voting rights ex-I, right, since George Bush. Immigration. I mean, it's, don't. Trump is the president and we're still having problems with immigrants. Right. So tough portfolio,

I think being the first is really hard and you have nothing to compare yourself to. I think there is a double standard with how women are perceived. She did have 100 days. That is just very, very hard to do anything in 100 days. And I think that there was just, there's a natural backlash you have when people are suffering, like economically. They still are. People want to give another choice to somebody else. They're just going to do that. That is natural.

It's like, you know, when you date somebody, you're like, well, that didn't work out. Let me try this other type of person. You know, it's just who we are. And so I think the totality of circumstances, I'll say this. I never said out loud before the election that I thought she was going to lose

because I still believe I deserve the right to believe she could win and I think like there's power in your words but I think that every person the day she Biden dropped out and she was and then that 30 minutes went

and then he I think everyone was like we're going to do everything we can to do this but I think we are too smart as black people to ever think that it was we always knew there was a 50-50 shot it wasn't going to work out I do I think that

I say it's interesting because when you talk about the conversation we have to have within our family first and then outside of it because we had Keith Edwards here on the podcast. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A week ago, recently. And we were talking about the Texas Senate race and we were having this conversation with him about the use of the word polarizing and identity and what that means. Now, that's an outside conversation. But we talk about being able to critique Jasmine Crocky. and we should be able to do that, and then just some of those conversations

that we should have. That's a whole thing that I don't necessarily want to get into, but I do want to know moving forward if we don't have the conversation within ourselves, which I don't think we necessarily will when it comes to Kamala Harris.

What do you think about her possibly running in 2028? I think if she wants to run, she should run. I think... I said this, though, in 2023, about people who wanted to challenge Biden. Like, he deserved to run again if he wanted to, and if you want to run for president and you think you're qualified, you deserve to run too.

No one just really stood up and said, I'm going to take this on. So if she wants to run, I think it is going to be hard for her to get the nomination. I do. I think that the field is going to be so crowded that it will be hard. But if she is the first of so many,

it is unfair to tell someone with her resume, don't run. Because the reality is we would not tell you, tell a white man with her resume not. to run. And so I just try and now if I was advising her, I might tell her something else, but I think in the world we live on,

we are allowed to do the things we want to do, even if someone tells us don't. Is there anybody they could have run with 100 days out that you think could have won? Could anybody with that amount of time have beaten Trump? Probably not. I mean, I think like Obama could have,

I think, yeah, I think it would have been very, very hard. There's a it would have been very, very hard without a hundred days. Like, it was going to be hard for Joe Biden to beat Donald Trump, too. That's the thing, that's the part of the story that we should have never ran. He should have never ran. Right.

So I guess the 100 days was, that's a function of whatever, the intractability of the Biden camp. Yeah. And the fact that they couldn't see the writing on the wall. I guess my question is, it's, you know, there's two conversations. One is on the electability. of Kamala Harris as the president of the United States of America. I think there were several reasons why,

to me, that there were things that could have been done, right? I think there were just tremendous misjudgments that were made by her campaign, even though I think that the campaign was able to do some things really, really well.

But let's just say you thought that Kamala Harris, let's just do a thought experiment. Let's just say that you thought that Kamala Harris wasn't a very good candidate for president. Not that she's not brilliant and not that she's not amazing, but for president, maybe you don't think she's a great candidate.

How do we have a conversation around the electability and the candidacy of someone that we have deep reverence and respect for while also. talking about maybe our entrenched massage in the war and talking about some things that maybe we can't see, granting all of those conversations, but just also going, maybe this particular person is it the best candidate for this particular office? Yeah.

Is that even fair? Yeah, it's fair. It's fair, but I just... You guys say that, man. It's fair, but this is the thing, man, this is the only thing I'll say is that it's fair, but we don't hold other people. We also might not think hypothetically they're a good candidate to that same standard.

Like there are a lot of people who are throwing their hats in the ring for like symbolically right now for 2028. And we should be saying to those people, you are not a good candidate to run for this. Do not run. But I don't really hear those conversations. I feel like it is always just about her. And I just want us to have like a broad, like, nope, no. Nope, nope, no, if we're going to do it.

And then if they listen, they listen. But this is the thing why I think it's hard, this is a tricky conversation, is that that did happen in 2020, yeah, in 2020 with the primary, right? People were like, no. And so she dropped out, Buttigieg dropped out. That's what primaries are for.

And I think we, because the Democratic Party did not have a primary like they should have in 2023 to ensure that the voters, wanted it, we now have to have these conversations like, should we have, the family talk is not like whether or not she's a good candidate. The family talk is like how we look at women in leadership, how we have double standards and why we do. Just even like, I know like you were joking, but it's like AKA versus Delta, right? Like there are real things that are not like, not us, but like like Sam versus dark skin, right? For sure. White husband versus black husband. Those are.

are all dynamics that people don't. I'm just saying, like, if you're going to have the conversation, that is the conversation that I think makes it more challenging, that no one, that we have at our coffee, we have one at Girls' Night during wine, but we don't have in like the strategy rooms when we're thinking about like debate prep. And that is, and you know why I think it is?

Because I think sometimes the wrong people are in the positions to actually push those conversations. Yeah. I agree. No, no, no, no, I definitely agree. I also think that they're painful. They're difficult. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's painful. If you, if you legitimately look at a candidate and you go, no, I don't really like her. And then someone goes, that's because you're, that's because she's a black woman. Your first thing is to go, God damn, I don't like my mama. Like you. And it's, it's painful sometimes for you to come to. You know, it's, it's painful sometimes for you to come to. to terms with these things. It's difficult work. You'd rather just be like, I'd answer that question poorly or whatever.

It's painful, difficult work. That's why sometimes when you have those conversations, they almost have to be had in trust and love, or you're not going to get nowhere. And they're almost impossible to be had in trust in love with a large group of people because half of that group of people is saying, if you don't listen to me, you're a bad person.

Yeah. And I'm not saying that that's wrong. But I'm saying that like, that's a thing. Well, the other half of it is people get defensive, right? That's why you say it's painful. It's hard to like have those conversations with yourself and realize what they may be saying is true. And you don't necessarily want to admit that. But the reason we have to have these conversations is because otherwise we'll keep putting the same type of candidate in office over and over and over again.

Or we'll keep propping the same type of candidate up, which I guess is my question to you is, you know, having worked in the spaces that you have just like in. different areas. What is a mistake that you see? And I guess I really mean between the Democratic Party. Yeah. Because they seem way more united over there. But what is a mistake that we keep making over and over again in regard? And I guess this ties back to the question about political progress. So we can move forward. What do we keep doing wrong? So many things. Well, please, maybe. Yeah. I know I think that one of the things is that like, who are we? Who are we? What world do you want to live in? Like, after the 2024 election, I started to do like some real reflection. And I'm like, is everybody actually fighting for the same world that I want to live in?

Like, what kind of world do you want to live in? What kind of world do you? I'm not sure we all have the same answers. Now, there are many ways to get to a destination, but I got to make sure our North Star is the same North Star. Otherwise, I'm running to freedom. And other people are running deeper into slavery, right? And so I want to have the question of like, who are we? What is the world that we want to live in? And I think there's some assumptions we make in the Democratic Party that then default us back when things, when the pressure is on, when it's like a bill to pass or not to pass, a policy to push for or not to push for, it makes it hard if you don't actually know what your North Star is to then go to war, right? Go to battle. Like go whip those.

votes so that we can get what we have promised to people. And look, politics is hard and Washington sucks and it's hard to make any progress of the way the rules are set up. But I think that the question that we should be asking now is like, what is the world we want to live in as a Democratic Party? Literally. And not no like daffodils and roses on, no. Like, do you want, can you say the word poor? Do you understand why people are poor? Do you understand what actual racism looks like. Do you understand why we have never had a female president? And what we have to do,

the long-time commitment we have to make to change some of those things, I'm around a lot of people, and I'm like, huh, I don't know if we see the world the same way. Hmm. It's like those are questions as a party, I feel like we do, but they don't, they don't. And they don't have to.

The other side. They don't ask those. They don't. I mean, but no, they do. They ask them very fundamentally. They do. They're very clear about my belief of the world they want to live in. They take 50, like they, the right legitimately decided in 1979, 1979, 1978, 1980,

no abortion. And they spent 40, 50 years completely changing the spectrum of their political side to get rid of it and they did it. I guess that's not what I mean. No, I agree with you with that. Because I was not quite the same, but I was kind of having this conversation with someone of, our party is so diverse.

And they try to please so many different things to where I feel like sometimes it splinters the message to where you might have the same North Star, but maybe the pathway to get to that North Star is different, if that makes sense. Where with them, it's really just kind of simple. It's either like you're forced or you're against us and that's it. Like they're not, I guess that's what I more so meant.

It's like we, the Democratic Party tries to please so many people because it looks so different where theirs looks the same. And even if you are different within there, you still, it's like they just use you to push up their same message. I don't know if that's making sense. It is, it is. I think though that, you know, if their party is, lacks as much diversity, it's just a different type of diversity. I feel like there are like extremely impoverished people. Their party is like, has some of like the poorest people that live in Appalachia and Bezos. Like, that's a spectrum.

Right. And as I was coming in, it just was like 16,000 people were laid off from Amazon today. Right. And so I think that is the diversity. I hear what you're saying. Like, we probably are a more diverse party. But I think the diversity looks different in some ways. But I think that they're pretty clear.

on the world they want to see and it is pretty fundamentalist. Like it is this versus this, this versus this. We're not, we don't need to disrupt too many social orders. And not just that. They're very clear on like how they want to get there. So for example, we think that there are interventions you can make to expedite to get to your. So for DEI, right? They're like, no, you're just going to have to work hard, hard, hard, hard. And, and. And, and. And, and, and, and, and, and, And you still might not get it and just work harder. We're not here to help anyone. If you make it, you make it.

If you don't, you don't. And sometimes I think we're like, we'll help you a little bit, but not too much. And like, oh, no. And it's like, what world do you want? Do you help people or don't you? And that just seems like a fundamental question. You know, it's interesting. What you're saying is something that we've kind of talked about.

I don't know necessarily that people know that much, though. Like the conversation that I have that I have with a lot of people sometimes and I'm specifically talked to a lot of brothers about this I'm like what kind of world do you want? Yeah. Like I ask them that and even when they answer sometimes the answer that they give me is a world that is rooted in harm reduction. Right? It's a world rooted in what they feel like somebody shouldn't be able to tell them or what shouldn't be able to happen to them. right and I'm like no what do you think the tax rate should be like you know what do you think foreign policy should be build your world build a world that operates in the way that you want to operate

because when I talk to people that aren't black when I talk to the things that they are advocating for they're advocating for things that have to do with their vision of the world that they should be living in. Let me tell you why I don't think the Democrats are really into that is because I don't think it's a power party and I don't think it's a party about empowering people. I think it is a harm reduction party. I think it is a party that says, hey, we're the only stopgap between you, Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Grand Admiral Throne and the rest of them. So there's sometimes you're going to have to be okay with a little bit less that we give you. Because if not, there is just a whole symphony of horrors on the other side.

And that's actually not wrong, which is the fuck the part about it, right? That's actually not wrong. But if you talk about vision to people, you have to speak to them in power. You have to tell people there are rights that you have. This world should exist where you have housing. This world should exist where you have health care. This world should exist where your wages grow. Yes.

Forget about the fucking stock market as an indicator of the American economy. Have your wages grown? Right. Is there diversity in the workforce where you can go out and be someone? The rights of the worker. Marks. Lennon. No, I'm just sure. Okay.

So like to me, the Democrats don't have that conversation because they don't have any credibility to have it. They don't really have any credibility to tell people some of these things because they haven't been moving on that to me. Yeah. I mean, most people said to me, you know, I worked on the reelect for Barack Obama in 2012. I worked it when a lot of people, I mean, we had record turnout for black folks, but a lot of people when I would go like in 2016 and have that conversation about now let's go vote for Hillary, it would be like, it wouldn't be like I'm going to vote for the other side. it would be like, I'm just not engaging because they're like, my life hasn't improved. And I think you said a word harm and I think definitions matter and experiences matter. It's like, what actually harm are the brothers that you're talking about talking about? Like, what harm have they experienced in their life?

Because I think we make some assumptions about that and it's important to know what they mean. But also it's like what does it mean for your life to improve? What you just said, it feels like wages increasing, housing, health care. That feels like improvement to me. But if you literally still are on the same block and you want to get off, that might not feel like improvement. And so you're like, maybe somebody else can get me off the block. Now, in four years, if you're still on the block, then you kind of are like, maybe no one can get me off the block. And so I'm just out, right?

Maybe this is the condition. And what I think you're saying and what I'm saying is that there is a space in this moment that people realize that the system is not working for most people on both sides of the aisle. and can we have enough courage to imagine the world we want to live in, which might mean we need to change some systems. You mentioned about like when it came to 2016, people just didn't. We're like, I'm going to step out of this one. In your opinion, what actually changes voter behavior? Is it facts?

Is it emotion or is it trust? Or is it all of them? It's all of it. I think that at the end of the day, we are, I have a friend who says, like, Democrats want you to go see a documentary. and Republicans make a like blockbuster hit, right? And it's like most people go see the blockbuster hit and not the doc, right? Like Melania.

Yeah. Can't wait. The movie. Right. Not tracking. You know? But I think that most people, it's an emotional reaction, right? It's an emotional like, I like it, I don't like it.

And it's really hard to move from, you know, when you don't like something, you know how hard it is? Like, what's one thing you just don't like? Shit that I don't like and don't like not be don't be deep just say something like I can't I don't know like shit that I don't like I can't really think of something what's something you don't like? Dairy Oh shit you'd van stop because it's white keep going That's crazy I thought you liked there But like if you don't like dairy do you know and you are at a restaurant and somebody orders a salad like a mozzarella and tomato salad

you're like, really? That's what we're doing today. You know? And so it's just like that person, you don't, doesn't matter how much you like that human being. You don't like the thing they order, so you're not going to change.

Like, I don't like artichokes. I don't care. I don't like them. I don't want them. And nobody's going to convince me otherwise. So it's like, if you experience a human and you're like, I don't like that person, it's really hard.

It takes a long time. You've got to spend some time with them. You've got to see them in certain situations to get you to move. So I think one emotions. I think people, People do have to feel like they can trust you. Like your word is your word.

Like nobody likes a shasty person. Like when you're like, there's some timing. Like I was waiting to get up in the studio. I was like, if Van don't answer his phone. I'm podcasting. I was like, I know he's recording. But if this brother leave me in this lobby on red and we're going to have a different type of relationship. True.

But I feel the need to be honest with you, this is why I feel the need to come through for people. I am a lot. That's, and so knowing that I'm a lot, you know that you can always rely and count on me to be generous to show up for you and to provide you with things. I know that I'm a lot. I think the Democrats know that there are a lot, but I do think this is what I would say. The last thing I say about this before I ask you about one more thing. I, I am, I think that I don't think that this party understands. understands people.

Mm-hmm. I don't disagree with you. I don't, I don't think they understand even, like, how corny something looks. Yeah. Like a lot, a lot of times I see shit and I'm like, yo, why do that? It's like, it's like, I'm, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to tell people, hey, this is kind of what you need to vote for.

And then somebody will just send me a picture and it'll be Hakeem Jeffries with a baseball back. And my homie would be like, this the nigger you want me to vote for. And I'm like, and I'm like, just why are you doing stuff like that? Like it's, and that's a very cosmetic thing because the fact of the matter is if everyone who has said this is correct. If the black lady is president, Alex Pretty, Renee Good, they're alive. Those two people. Yeah.

I know we're going to talk about two white people. those people are dead because Donald Trump was elected president. Let that sit with you. They died because of that. Right. And so there is a cost. There is a definite cost. But I think my disillusion with particularly the center left right now is sometimes on Israel, on the economy, like on AI.

There's this gigantic disconnect between them and the fears and priorities of even parts of their own constituency that they either can't address because of corporate capture or they just don't have the cultural IQ to see. Like some of the mistakes that were made denying the Palestinians their opportunity to speak at the DNC. Stupid. dumb like legitimately like dumb like who are you in that situation right there like who are you playing it safe for like you're the large portion of your base is like we don't want that yeah who is that for like I I when I see stuff like that I go you know what man it's fucked it's fucked what am I missing though what somebody like me you know I see you talking to people you you're on the phone, you whip and votes.

You're like, I'm talking to the minority whip and that. No, he ain't never seen. Like, she does, like, she's one of them ones. Like, she really is one of the ones, like, on one of the check. Hey, I know the ex-coms director and all of that stuff. What is somebody like me who is out of that world? What am I missing? But I'm out of the world too now because I am the person being like, let them speak.

And at some point, let's just, let's just, just so you understand, like, I'm a faith-based person. And so I believe in divine timing. I started working at the White House a month before Michael Brown was murdered. Okay. That was my whole portfolio is waking up and seeing black people murdered at the hands of the state. Right? Traumatizing work. When no one would meet with people in Ferguson, when tanks were in the street, I was like, what are we doing?

Like, it was early on, but I'm like, bring them. I need to know what it's happening. happening. I can't go there because I have to be here. But like, so I have always been the person on the inside pushing, pushing, pushing. And at one point I was like, I started working for the Biden campaign, the week of George Floyd. And I mean, I really had to evaluate if I was like, I might have made the wrong decision because I need to be in the streets protesting. And I'm like, actually, no, you need to be on the phone while they're deciding what their policy platform is going to be around policing. and I pushed that campaign.

They were so sick to see me coming. Like every day I was like, we need to be doing this. We need to be doing that. You don't need to say that. You can say this. Like, people are mourning. And I just think that because of the disillusionment, there are, and it's hard to do that. Like, that was a very lonely period in my career being in COVID with that happening and

feeling like I was pushing the campaign. But I felt like it was my assignment. there has to be more people like that inside. Because otherwise, you have too many people saying, don't let them speak at the DNC and not enough people saying politically, like not even like morally what's right, right? Like there's different things.

There's like in my heart, in my gut, in my spirit, I know this is right that they should have a microphone. But politically, you gotta win Michigan. Like if you just, I don't, that's why I'm not in politics. the way I used to be because it's like, I feel like sometimes we look at people as just numbers and votes and not humans. And if you looked at people as humans, you'd be able to move them better and faster and actually improve the quality of their lives. But like morally and politically, it was wrong. Right. If someone's listened to this conversation, it feels a little hopeless

when it comes to the Democratic party. Oh, no, I got hope. It feels. Okay, okay, because I was going to, it does. It feels like it's lost. And so I do want you to speak to that. Yeah. Because what I was going to say is, like you're not there anymore, but you've been, you've been in government, you have the experience, you now have this media platform, you're all, you're contributing on scene and you're, you're, influencing in the best way, I'll say, thought, thought leader. If you could redesign, you know, how the party talks about, or communicates about politics, what, how would you redesign it? Like, what's the first thing that you would do to where things can change? Well, I would think about the three things that seem to matter most of people right now

and one is the economy. Like people are struggling, right? And it doesn't matter actually like what part of you identify in. The gas is high, heat is high, jobs are not paying enough, job, people are unemployed. So I would erase everything that everyone has told you

about why something can't work, why it could work and just say like, what do we think is a livable wage in this country? Not like what is passable, but what is actually, is it $25 an hour? Is it $30 an hour? Is it maybe in the southern states because the cost of living is like lower? Is it maybe $20 there and $40 in New York? Like, can we just get courageous to just have like some like, what would make your life easier?

And then write a policy to say and say like, this is the thing I'm going to do for. for you. I can't, and be honest, I cannot do it all. I don't have enough time and I don't have enough. But this thing, I am committed to make happen. And I think Obama did that with health care, right? Now again, it wasn't the perfect plan. But it was like, what are the only things that people can really hold on to and like, and they're like, well, what did this person do? Health care. Like something that the Clintons couldn't do, something that Bush was not interested in doing, something that the Republicans have yet to repeal. But let me just say something about like where we are.

I was talking to this preacher the other day and she was like, man, you know, in the Old Testament, the people were stuck in the desert for like decades, right? I forget how long it was. It wasn't like 40 days in the desert, but like stuck in the wilderness for 40 years. Yeah, it was like 40 years. Yeah, right? But even longer than she, there was some story she told me.

Anyway, and I was like, and so she felt like we were at the beginning of that period. And I was like, what if we're in the last month? Like, what if you could look at it in a different way and figure out what agency you have to say? Because I do think there's this, like, we have lived through the civil rights movement. We have lived through the Black Lives Matter movement.

We have lived through so many things. Like, what if we are in the moment where if we actually take all of our agency and fully lean in, we can shift it? And that is the way I'm. I'm approaching this because I am a storyteller and this is not how my story is. It is not. Say one thing before I get to ask you as a CNN specific question. You bring up health care, right?

This is my, this is my issue and this is kind of what I'm into. Everybody has different jobs, by the way. Everybody has different jobs. Everyone has different jobs. I tell you guys that. Sometimes you guys go, you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. And I'm like, no, don't tell me what I'm what I shouldn't be doing.

Concentrate on what you should be doing. and then go do that, right? Everybody has different jobs. Yep. I think about health care. I think about something as overwhelmingly popular as health care is. If you start doing polls on stuff talking to Americans, you'll get something like 80% support on universal health care.

It is still a political pipe dream. Why? Because of the corporate capture that exists in the middle of that process. Even when you're talking about that minimum wage, that minimum wage, that minimum wage, that national, that federal, it's been done in different places. But that minimum wage hike can't happen because the corporate class then batters and whips the politicians that they own.

And because of Citizens United and because of, because of, because of, because of, I'm not even talking to the person that's elected. I'm talking to that person's boss and that person's boss is the corporate class. and I know that sounds like some really easy dime store analysis, but that's just facts. It is facts. And like whenever you try to like really have that conversation, you can't have it in a partisan way because that's a bipartisan issue.

The question is, how do we reorganize even the ability to hold a politician accountable when they're not accountable to you, when they're accountable to the person that gives them their job, which really isn't you, it's the person that is putting money in their pocket. Like, what's the fix there? Well, if you, yeah, okay, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. I mean, I hear, I don't disagree at all what you're saying.

That assessment is accurate. I do think, though, it minimizes the role of the voter, right? So there's a couple angles I will look at it. Like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much money actually a corporation gives to a politician. If they cannot get the votes they need to be elected, it doesn't matter. So I think that that is why it goes to being like back in community and really building, I mean, it takes a long time.

It takes trust. It takes investment. But really building that so that when the people say, I mean, you just look at what's happening in Minneapolis, right? Like the people are collectively organizing and saying no. said no. No. Yeah. Absolutely not.

And they're willing to go through the pain. And they're willing, but that was my next piece, right? Yeah. So if you study any, like, fascist regimes or whatnot, one of the things that is, like, there are, there are steps and tactics to have interventions. I think we're actually seeing one of them that is working really well. It was like the Target boycott, right? There still haven't been some, but, like, Target's bottom line is taint because black people said,

No. Like I can't say no to everything, right? Because like I still need to go get like the cheapest toilet paper I can find or whatnot. But I can say no to this. And so I think there is like some discipline that in organizing that we have to get to collectively together and align with. And then I think like if you really want things like if you want to lose weight, it's like you got to work out. You know what I mean? You got to sweat.

Yeah. There is no. I mean, well, now there's magic shots. But let's say, there is no magic field. But now there's a magic shot. But even that, like, if you, you can lose all the way, but you ain't going to have no muscle. Yeah. It's temporary.

And it's temporary. And it's side effects to it. And it's side effects to it, right? And those can be. So there is no just like easy way. Anything worth having takes effort, takes discipline, can take some pain. Yeah. Last thing I'll ask you. There's been, we do the show all the time.

And sometimes we do the show with one Mr. Scott Jennings. There are people now who. say that people with Scott's attitude and approach are not really worth being on television. When I see people criticize Abby or criticize the show that we're on, a lot of times their criticism is in why is Scott on there? What's the purpose of having Scott or any other person from the right on there when you can't get a good faith conversation? A lot of times, what you get is them laundering the latest horror from the administration.

Telling Americans either why it's not as bad as what they think it is or how some Democrat did it before so it's okay now. Is there value to you? I know this is a tough, tough, tough question. Is there value to you in having these conversations when some of these conversations seem like they're in bad faith? Yes. Is it easy to have that? No. Right.

Right. What's the value? Well, I mean, look. I don't always go in the comments, but like there are people who believe. Believe that perspective. I, this is not going to be breaking news. I do not agree with Scott on 90% of the things that come out of his mouth or any of the Republicans in that matter. But there are.

And if there wasn't, we wouldn't have Donald Trump as the president. And I think that that's an important thing is like if you become blind to or pursue. of people, how can you ever engage them? How can you ever persuade them? So I have to know, like, in sports, you have to study the other team. In order to study the other team, you have to get tape. In order to get tape, you got to go to the game. You got to watch them, even if you hate that other team. So I do think, I think that there is an important role that host play, that Abby plays in, like, fact checking it, and that we have to play when we come there to say, like not on my watch type of thing.

But I do think that there is a part of the population that if it's not on that platform, you need to be alert and aware that that is how some people think. Because if you go to the comments, whether it's Scott or whoever, people agree with him. But I'm like,

hmm, yeah. And then sometimes they get into my comments and guess what? They disagree with me. And I'm like, huh. So like it makes me stronger and clearer in what I am fighting for and arguing for when I hear what other people who disagree with me their position. It makes me a better debater, I think.

You convinced me. I almost, sometimes I'm very, I'm not saying he shouldn't be a part of the show. I love the way that you just explain that. Last question for me, obviously we want everybody to check out Theroot.com. Yes. You've got watering home media. And it's all about truth telling. I want you to talk about that.

But other than everybody following what's going on on The Route.com, what's a book, a podcast, or a thinker that's influencing you right now. Oh. This is going to sound kind of cheesy, but so one of my really good friends told me we went to Mexico City for New Year's and she told me she read the whole Bible last year. I am trying to read the entire Bible this year. Okay. I have never done it. And this is why, because I am a person of faith.

and I think that if you are going to proclaim and be in conversations and push back, you need to know more than a couple verses. You need to know, you need to know more than just what people, it's easy to preach on. You need the good, the bad. And so the Bible, and now is it like,

some of them I'm like, this is just a lot of pain here. So it's not really, so that is when I'm, like, doing this process to get that done in the year. another one that I podcast I'm trying to think

so I'm not no shade I'm not a big podcaster right but what I like are like self-help like practices so there's an abundance practice that I try and do that I haven't started yet I'm going to start in Black History Month where it's like Does it recalling?

No You say abundance Um, the, his name is escaping me. No, it's not. It's like a Buddhist practice. Um, and then there is one, um, someone I, like, I read a lot of like self-help stuff. So it's like, um, do you know who Pima Trollra is? She is, um, a Buddhist.

And I did actually, so she, the reason why I actually was not going to talk about this, but, um, I feel like there's a lot of pain in the world right now. and there's this practice called Tonglin where you like inhale other people's pain and you give them what you find joyful. And so I've done that a couple of times and I did that like around Minneapolis because I felt like these folks are in proximity

and so like it's just like an energy shifting thing so I've like doing some of that. I'm just trying to pull on things that are bigger than myself right now because I think that that is what we need. We need to pull on each other. We need to pull on being community. and I have an assignment here. I'm doing what I should be doing.

Okay. But I can only do what I'm doing when I'm in community with other people doing what they should be doing. So, yeah. The root, CNN, Obama, Biden, Kamala. He sounds like somebody, daddy.

She works with everyone. Ashley Allison, thank you for joining us on higher learning. Thanks for having me. Before we get out of here, something touched me directly. regarding Ray J talked about Ray J before. Play this audio, Donnie. 2027 is definitely a rap for me.

No, don't say that, but I don't say that. No, no, no, fuck the doctor. No, no, no. Because when you say that, you're confirming what the doctor said. No, no, that's what they say. I don't know. No, no, fuck what they said. But you're going to live long.

Guess what? You're going to live long to see your children grow up. Yes. Nigel. Nobody has never told you this. You're going to live long to see your children broke up. Have children to. Real shit.

Nah, naga. Fuck what doctor take you. Your time is done. No. Fuck that. Your neighbor is a doctor. So watching this, anything that Rager's days are counted?

I'm here to tell you. It don't matter if my days. No, they're not. They're not. His days are not counted. But guess what? More life to the border. My baby mama going to be straight.

My kids are going to be straight. If they want to spend all the money, they can spend it. But I did my party. That's okay. Um, what Rage J goes on to say is that, is that his heart is only beating 25%.

That's what he was told. He was hospitalized for a severe case of pneumonia earlier this month. He said, his heart is only beating like 25%. As long as I stay focused and stay on the right track, everything will be all right.

I then saw something that maybe he was at 60% or something like that. Oh, it went up? Well, maybe I've seen different reports now. You guys, I'm seeing different reports now. So the reason why this, kind of touched me. This was my father died for him.

So, 2004, I think it was, I was still in my Best Buy uniform. We go to Baton Rouge General. That's on Blue Bonnet in Baton Rouge. Okay, that's on Blue Bonnet

in Baton Rouge, General. My dad is there, and he's laying down, and he's like peeing out fluid. Exactly. He's peeing out fluid. Like, Ebony calls me and then he goes like, something's wrong with dad. His heart rate is way up.

He say he can't breathe. And so I leave work. I wasn't too far away. I leave work. I go there and my dad's laying down. I just remember this so vividly. The doctor walks over to my father and he tells my dad, he's like, you know, there's fluid on your body on your ankles and on your midsection and stuff like that because your heart

isn't working right. your heart isn't efficiently beating and moving all of the nutrients through your body or whatever through your body. And so there's fluid that's sitting on you and stuff like that. My dad looks at the guy. My dad goes, I'm going to be all right, right? And I remember the look on the doctor's face. I've told this story before.

The look on a doctor's face was like, nah, this is what's going to kill you. It might not be today. It might not be tomorrow. But this thing that you have, this is how you go. This is whatever. Now, my dad would have been at that time 47 or 48 And so it's a tough son of a bitch

He held on Till he was 65 So he lived for a long time This is if Ray J is actually in heart failure If he's actually in heart failure If this is what's going on If this is not like Because sometimes this can get mimicked

You can have if he had pneumonia Sometimes there are other things that can go with you to where a condition like this can be acute. It doesn't have to last for a long time. But if Ray J is actually in heart failure and in the early stages of CHF or some other related type of deal, then is going to take a complete reorganization of his life to extend his time on earth, if this is actually what's happening. I actually called him because, you know,

a condition like this is it takes a lot of lifestyle changes and stuff like that but there are things and ways that I wish that I would have been with my dad and even help that I wish would have happened like with my dad while he was dealing with CHF like his life changed. You still love to hunt.

Walk a long time, you can't breathe anymore. You can't climb my life. up in the tree to hunt. Can't ride your horses like you used to anymore. Everything about your cardiovascular system is changing and the amount of stress that you can put on your body is changing. You start to change physically. You start to look different, right? Your medication regimen becomes pretty rigorous. To sleep at night sometimes, you have to have certain things. So just watching that over the course of his life that I watched it, I just could not help but feel. they're not that far off in age.

If this in fact, what is what is alien aging, I could, Reggie, I could not help but feel like crazy, crazy sympathy. Of course. Of course. I have a hard to him and his entire family. But last thing I'll say is, if I could speak to him, I would say, don't even, this is for all of y'all. Don't even, don't ever snatch death away from life.

Hell now. Don't ever snatch death away from life. 2027, it's a rap. Sometimes, don't ever say that. Because even if that were true, you got to think of the amount of memories that you can still make. You owe your family memories.

You owe the people around you, memories and actions. Don't ever snatch death from life, man. It's just because when you are gone, it's things that people are going to want to say to you and they can never say them. But I don't know. For some reason, this particular thing, anybody with CHF,

anybody that's dealing with this kind of situation, with their heart and all of that stuff. It's just a, it's a tough, tough thing. It really is. All right. So prayers to Ray J. Prayers to the Norwood family, to Princess Love, to everyone.

I know it's been a hectic, chaotic chapter in Ray Jays' life. But man, get on good terms with everybody and make your treatment easy for yourself. All right, y'all. Tell you things kept off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen, Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.