Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Michelle Appears on Call Her Daddy, Rachel’s Freedom, and Keith Edwards on Critiquing Crockett

Episode Date: January 23, 2026

Van and Rachel react to the Oscar nominations before discussing Rachel’s newfound freedom and Michelle Obama’s appearance on Call Her Daddy. Then, there’s drama between LeBron and the Lakers, and media personality Keith Edwards joins to break down his coverage of the Texas Senate race. (0:00) Intro (2:18) Oscar nominations (14:14) Rachel’s IG post (20:41) Michelle Obama on Call Her Daddy (39:05) Lakers drama (49:34) Taylor Swift calls Justin Baldoni a “bitch” (59:35) Keith Edwards on Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Keith Edwards Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, you know, Thought Warriors. What is up? How is it on is I Van Lacey Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Worlds collide today. World's collide. Tell them why. Finally.

Keith Edwards on the podcast. Keith Edwards is on the podcast. Live in person, too. I'm in L.A. Yeah. You're in New York doing your thing. You and, you and Keith had a, how'd you feel a conversation with?

You like me? I thought it ended really well. Like, I thought, I think it's a necessary conversation than more people should have, and I appreciate him being bold enough to come do it and do it in person, especially after we called him out so many times.

And he wasn't afraid to come. So I thought it went well. I thought it was a good conversation. Yeah, I didn't call him out for what he said, because I don't have that much of a problem with it. But, like, I called him out for not having the conversation with us and, you know, doing the whole thing, which he did, by the way. And I think I,

understand more now more not just him but kind of some of the roadblocks coalitionally inside if that's even a word inside the left when it comes to talking about race and gender and stuff and it's a problem that we have more than the other side has because they're not as diverse so it's I think that we or motivated the same things. So it's an issue that we deal with that they don't have to deal with or care to deal with, I should say. My biggest thing with him that I wanted to bring up and bring out, which I feel like we got to, was why. I'm not saying I agree, which we've said multiple times, the things that he is being accused of are called online, but where people are coming from,

like what it's rooted in. I wanted to get to that understanding because that is not possible through social media. That's possible in conversations that we have, and I feel like we did a good job of that, all three of us. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul PREDICT. Predict the spread, total points,

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Tramfaya, including important safety information. So that's later on in the podcast. I thought Keith, I thought the conversation with Keith was great. We got to get into something right now. We got to talk about it. Senors, Oscar nominations are out.

Donnie. Yeah, the nominations were at least this morning, and it looks like Senors broke the Academy record for 16 total nominations. What do you guys first reactions to this list? Which ones were the surprises? So I think that I was surprised to see Delroy Lindo. Oh, yeah. Supporting. A friend of the show.

Yeah. Did that air? Do we air that? What? Del Rolando's interview? Yeah. Yeah, we did. We aired.

Okay. Del Rylendo came on. Hey, we love Del Roy Lindo. Del Rolando came on and, you know. Everybody is a bad day. He's an OG. He was, you know, we were taking a back. Everybody has a bad day.

A lot of respect. Okay, that was a surprise. Was it known that Michael B. Jordan was going to get that nomination? Mostly, yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. And I have to say this because I don't know that I've ever been happier for someone to receive an Oscar nomination than I am for Autumn.

I know, I saw that. Who came on our show. Best Cinematography. Best Cinematography. This is a gigantic, huge moment from somebody who is dedicated to their craft who loves the art of making things look amazing, loves the collaboration. She came on our podcast. We talked to her. We have fun with her.

And now she is officially nominated for an Academy Award. Incredible. I think she's going to win. She should win. Yeah. Did you see the other movies? Which ones is she up against? One battle after another.

one ballot after another she's up again Okay, saw that. So like, because when sinners is nominated 16 times, I'm just going to encourage everybody to see as many of the movies as you can. We do this every single year. If you care about the actual winners of the Oscars, if you care about that type of thing, if sinners get 16 nominations,

comes back and it wins three or it wins four, if it gets shut out, it will be an issue. Okay? I know. I thought about that. Are they said, obviously we're happy with the record-breaking nomination, but it's like, are you setting yourselves up for people

to be hyper-critical of then the wins don't reflect that? When I'm saying to Cinners Hive, to anybody who loves the movie and wants to see the movie win a bunch of awards, you do owe it to yourself in this situation. If you care about that type, of thing to see the movies that Senators is up against so that then you can have an accurate,

not just intellectual, but cultural take about who you think should have won what. Now, if you watch all the movies and you think Michael B. Jordan should win for best actor, I think he should win for best actor because I fuck with him. But the reality is that the question is, did he have the best performance of the year? Oftentimes the best performance of the year doesn't win. Things happen. Certain actors, it's their time, certain things, kind of fuck up the voting.

Sometimes people can fuck this up in the next couple of weeks. In the next couple of weeks, people can go and do all their campaigning, and if they're wrong in February, and the way that they go about this, they can fuck up their march. It happens all the time. But if you didn't see the movies,

you're setting yourself up for disappointment based upon a metric that you don't really have a real take on. So you don't have to see them all, but like let's say you care specifically about a category. Even like if you're in town or something like that, just see the other films so that if sinners loses, you could be like, oh, I can see that. I will, for the first time ever make a genuine effort to see as many of these as I can. What's the fuck I'm talking about? In order to have a robust conversation with you come Oscar time. because I don't want to hear you say

I can't have this conversation nobody saw it I'm not gonna do that to you I'm gonna be a team player and I'm gonna get it done can I ask you where I should start though like give me a high one I told you I've seen begonia

I've seen one battle left or another I've seen sinners and this could be for everybody else too like where because like as beautifully shot as train dreams looked it looks incredibly slow and I don't want to start slow

You don't want to start with the slow movie Okay, let's talk about these movies real quick Let's just look at Best Picture Bologna F1, Frankenstein, Hamlet Martin Supreme, one battle after another The Secret Agent Sinners and Train Dreams. Now outside of those movies Hampton's right there, outside of those movies

There's a film that my friend Cord really likes. He won an Oscar one time Core likes this movie called Blue Moon Oh yeah And that movie is with Ethan Hawk I just watched that It seems slow. That shit is fucking great.

Isn't it just in one place, though? Yeah, but like, you know, sometimes these movies are people talking in rooms. I get into those, too. Again, slow. I need movement. As not an avid watcher, you got to understand, like, I'm not as, you know, I'm not you. You don't like movies. I'm not, is it a cinephile?

I'm not that. So I need to, you have to give it to me like a child. The only thing I will say I'm curious about Blue Moon is when I was, looking at it, I was unaware of this story. And I obviously know, and so, like, as a person who likes theater, I... You know the playwrights and all of that stuff. Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, I never knew of the guy who didn't, you know, and how he, you know, went on and partnered with somebody else and made history. So I think the background is interesting.

I'm calling for something here. I'm calling for elevated griping. Cultural griping that is authentic. if you are going to gripe, if you're setting yourself up for the gripe here, then I want people to be able to really dive into this art and have conversations that are based around stuff other than just the fact that it's black,

so it's impossible for the movie to win as much. I'm not asking for you, I'm saying that like, okay, so if you care about Ryan and Best Director, you only got five to see. Hamlet, Marty Supreme, one battle after another sentimental value, and sinners. legitimately there, the only one that would be the type of movie that you're talking about is kind of like sentimental value.

Everything else is, Hamlet is going to get you. But everything else... Marty So brings fast? Oh, you're saying that's like a little slower. That's going to be a little slower. That's going to be a little slower. Now, actor, once again, Blue Moon is in there. So it's Salome, DiCaprio, Hawk, Michael B. Jordan, and Wagner and the Secret Agent.

He made history. Wagner did. He's the first Brazilian to be nominated for... Best Actor for the Secret Agent. Actors you can skip. It's a Battle of Wipes. Jesse Buckley, Rose Byrne, Kate Hudson. Renata.

Renate. It's Renata. Renata. These are, this one right here, Jesse Buckley's going to win. She destroyed me. I think Jesse Buckley's going to win. Then we come to another very interesting category here.

Best supporting actor. How is Benicio del Toro in it? What do you mean how? He was in. I know, I know what he was in. I've seen the movie. I'm just thinking of the performance. And not that it wasn't good.

It just, it wasn't long, it wasn't big. Oh, Jesus. You know what I mean? Some people say that he was the best part of that movie. I love to, because I loved his character for sure.

But it was just like a smaller role is my point of what I'm saying. true. So in this category, it's very interesting because... How is Frankenstein, not the actor? Sorry, talking about it. When I left one battle after another, I thought Sean Penn had this locked up. Same.

Just because of the narrative behind the film and all of that. Benicio Del Toro's character and his performance got cooler people as time went on. When I saw Delroy Lindo in Senors, I go, there's a nomination. However, it just seemed like with all of the movies that were coming out, that maybe that performance wouldn't weigh heavily on people's minds long enough for him to be nominated. He was, I think it's apt. But then you have Stilling Scarsgaard down here in sentimental value. And that's an interesting story.

It could be that one battle after another, Champagne and Benicio del Toro kind of cancel each other out. And if somebody is going to sneak in there, it might be still in Scars Guard. He won the Globes, right? He won it for the Globes. Can I ask you a question? How is Frankenstein not best actor? Like, doesn't he play Frankenstein? Is he not the main actor in the movie?

So Frankenstein, he plays the monster. Well, I know the monster. I know who Frankenstein is, but I just would think, I'm just surprised it's in Best Supporting Actor. I've seen the movie. I'm asking you. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's a, yeah, no, yeah, I think it's apt.

But no, that's something that's really, And a lot of different roles throughout the history of film. When it comes to the Oscars, people throw that around. Like, where should you be? I could see what you're saying. But I think I would have put them in supporting as well. Okay. I would have put them in supporting as well.

And then, you know, Tiana Taylor, one battle after another, woman Musaku, it's sinners. I think that Amy Madigan and weapons might have an inside track there. Okay? I really do. But that's one where we're, one of those sisters is viable to me. One of those sisters is really viable to me.

Tia Taylor has the momentum. So, and then you have adapted screenplay. I don't know how much you guys are going to care about that one. Original screenplay, though, is where I think Ryan Coogler has his best shot to Winner Academy. I think the Blue Moon script is fucking great, right? It was just an accident, Margie Supreme Center in value. I think Ryan's best shot is in screenplay. And I would really, really be surprised if Autumn didn't win.

Like, if Autumn didn't win for best cinematography, I would be surprised. I would really be surprised if she didn't win. So, but yeah, there you have it. But see, in the categories that you care about, just because these movies are also very good, try to see as many of the movies as you can. So, you know, you can have an informed opinion about who you actually think was the best. And you might come away thinking in every single category you watch all the movies that, you know,

sinners was the best achievement because it's a fucking fantastic cinematic achievement. But there are films that were made this year that in any given category, any given performance, you shouldn't be mad if centers, if they beat centers. Like, it's just a reality, right? Hamlet's the best movie I saw all year. Okay.

Dang. That's a fact. Sinners to me is the best, is the highest achievement, but Hamnet is the best movie I saw all year. Okay. Let's get on the way. What do you want to go to, Rachel? What do you want to do? Let's do next.

Oh. Let's do Lakers. I know we got to talk about the top of the show. No, we got to do this at the top of the show. What? What's going on on Instagram? Oh. Nothing's going on on on Instagram.

I had a big life achievement accomplished this weekend. Even though I tried it, let me just tell you how this works for me. So I had said on this podcast that I was about to do my last payment in my divorce settlement. And I was actually, I've been saving, saving, saving. and I was waiting on a couple of payments to come in from some work I had done last year that didn't come in timely. So I asked in good faith

if I could give like 60% or 70% and then just like get it like an extension with interest by the way. Oh wow. Of well legally you have to. Of like 60 days in good faith but it would come in much sooner than that. But I'm going to give you, mind you,

this is, I've already done one payment already. And then while we were working out the settlement, there was more payments. So it's not like you don't have anything. So I was like, here, I'm going to give you like 70% of this. And then wait for these other things to trickle in. Can we agree to that? What do you think the answer was? No.

No. Of course not. No. No. And that was at like on a Thursday night. And then Friday morning payment came in. And I said, you know what? look at God.

And so I was able to send it off, pay it. And then I said, I'm going to post about it because I'm really proud of this moment. Like, yeah, it sucks to have lost so much money. But the fact that I was able to pay it off in a year, I'm proud of that. And like, that's an achievement too. So I posted myself on a beach. I was in Miami this weekend. Yeah.

From the back, looking forward, kiss my ass. Oh, it was a kiss my ass situation. Yeah. It was like a kiss my ass. I'm looking forward, karma song playing in the background. And letting people know, well, I mean, she writes very well about her past relationship. So I thought that lyrically it fit. And I believe in that.

What goes around comes around. And yeah, and letting people know I'm moving forward. And I'm writing the next chapter. I thought it was a good post. Thank you. You're on his home turf, right? That too. You know, you're on his home turf.

You're celebrating. It really got the streets going. Like, even women were hitting me up. Like, Jesus Christ, Rachel's in great shape and all of that stuff. That was part of it, too. Like, I don't dress like, you know, I'm normally in like baggy your clothes and stuff. Yeah. I look good.

I feel good. You look good. You feel good. And now you got extra bread. You got extra bread because, you know, one of your kids graduated college. Basically. You're like, you know what I mean? They're out of the house.

So you got extra bread now. I think everyone is happy for you. What are you going to buy? Is this going to be the unit of Ferrari, Rachel? We're saving back up. You know what I mean? Like I was able to get through it. I'm surviving.

But I've got to be smart in how I move forward. But no, no, no. I'm not going to just like trick off or anything like that. Yeah. This thing about the buy chain. Okay. Congratulations. Thank you.

That freedom is fantastic. And I know that. But beyond the money, this has been a really taxing psychological time. It's been tough and all with all of this stuff. I'm glad you're free of it. Thank you. Thank you. And I feel like, yeah, I can put it on.

So now I can like really focus on. Because I don't really like, we make jokes here and there. But I ain't really been talking. Oh, so now you're ready to. Oh. We are motivated. For what? You don't want to end up back.

Look, remember that like, you know. It's like, you're like, yeah. That's why you get a publisher. Oh, you get, oh, you're going, oh, you're going to book route. Yeah. Okay, well, Kershant Trapman, Legacy Lit. Okay. Everyone gets you, go to Kishan.

Oh, yeah, Kershon Trotman. Legacy lit. Legacy lit, got all your needs. You put the book, what's the name of the book? Fuck him, girl, fuck them. It should be, right? Close, though. You know, you can have a fire title.

Oh, you know what a fire title is? of the book. I'm gonna be real with you. I just don't want you to say what my working title is, but go ahead. A fire title that's gonna fly off the shelves is no more white boys.

That's a fire title. Like, a fire title that like that's going to fly off the shelves, you're going to get on Outkick and you're going to get in Ebony. You're going to get on Fox News and you're going to get in the

route. Like... And then can you imagine like the next guy I step out with is white. Well, you can't do that. Okay. If the name of the book, if the title of the book is, no more white boys, how a greedy colonizer brought me home. That's the subtitle.

Brought me home is crazy. The problem I have as we move on to Michelle Obama and call her daddy is that I'm an idea, man. You are. You definitely are. And that's fire. So if Rachel not going to write that book and she's probably not, some sister out there,

that title, that title right there, that's 50,000 copies alone. Just the title. You walk it through the book. I haven't told you the title? The working title? No, you have it.

Okay, I'll tell you later. Yeah, you have it. Okay. All right, we're very happy for you. Thank you. It's fantastic. Nobody else sent me that post. I'm going to put the drive on y'all.

Okay? You thirsty ass, nigga. Anybody I would like? Is there, anybody I would like? Nah, hell not. Like, one nigga I was on a group chat with he in jail. What? Yeah, he's incarcerated.

And is it a group chat? Yeah, you've met him. All right. Donnie? All right, yeah. Let's talk about what you just teased. Michelle Obama was on college. Daddy this week sat down with Alex and talked about a bunch of different topics, including her hope for the new generation.

This is what the former first lady had to say. Create a new future that is actually inclusive, equal, and respectful of each other. Because right now, it does not feel like we are close to that. And don't you get a sense that people are not content in that? Yeah. Right? So let's, you know, I think more people are starting. to be outspoken about it and realizing, is this what we, you know, and a lot of people

are like, I didn't sign up for this. That is us speaking. That is us, you know, that's our real hearts kind of coming to the fold. I'd like to think. When you saw Michelle was going on Caller Daddy, what did you think? What was your knee jerk to it? I'm asking. A lot of people had a response to it that I wasn't expecting.

I immediately looked up how, like, what black people have been on Call Her Daddy. I don't know why, but that was like my thought. I was like, does she have a lot of diversity on the podcast? I honestly don't know because I don't listen. I don't follow. That was my reaction. But Michelle Obama is promoting a book and she has a podcast. We know she's in the same category as us.

Make sure you guys take this time. Link will be in our notes. Vote for us NAACP Awards. Michelle Obama is one of the same. the people were up against, she, why would you not go on one of the biggest podcast out there? It just makes sense to me. So I'm not one of those people who was bothered by that. It made me think of, oh, who else goes on this podcast that looks like me? But that was really it. She was having a conversation. I mean, her book is about style and expression and being a woman and,

you know, the next generation being better than the generation that she's, that she came from and building a world for her daughters and all of that. Alex has a huge audience that's rooted in women. It makes sense. It makes sense. I didn't have strong opinions about this. Yeah, a lot of people did. I don't know why.

What do you want to hear from Michelle Obama? Okay, I listen to half this podcast. So if the other half of it, I want to be honest, if the other half of it is two hours covers this, then my bad. But the part that I listened to of this podcast was Michelle Obama talking about herself, her experience, not just as a mother, not just as the wife of Barack Obama,

but as the first lady, what that was like, how people viewed her, that she wasn't new to, you know, like her accomplishments, if you read her first book of everything she accomplished before and how she had to take a back seat, you know, because her husband was running for the presidency. I want to hear that from as a black woman. And the conversation that I listened to the first hour was more about being a woman. And I feel like the complexity that she had to face was unlike any other first lady because she was the first black first lady.

And I wanted to hear more about her navigating the world as a black woman. She has done that in her other book. But when you were talking about how you have to be in the world as a mother, it's as a black mother. It's a black experience. And I felt like she could have gone there with Alex. I don't know what Alex's response would have been like, but I felt like we weren't getting the full thing because of who she was sitting across from. Because of the questions that Alex was asking her. Alex was asking her questions generally about being a woman in this world.

but she's not the reason she's so people also have her on a pedestals because she's the first in what she was doing as a black woman I wanted more of that as a black lady I think it would have been a little irresponsible of her to do that with Alex because all it's going to be is Alex you're not going to have the conversation for real like I think the conversation has to be broader because I mean what I was going to say well I would I probably would I mean I can't say what I would have done but it's like I mean, okay, in no way am I on the same level. I'm just saying I had to talk about being a first black to white people in white space. And I talked about that experience as a black woman. So she could have done it. And I think it would have made Alex maybe feel like like Alex would have to be like, I don't know what that is like, but I admire you. Or I don't know what that's like I'm not equipped to have.

She can't say that. I'm not equipped to have that conversation. But see, but see, you're getting to the thing of it. I understand it. Yeah. You asked me what I wish I would have heard. Of course. Like I get it.

But to me, it's so many black platforms where you can go on those platforms and talk about to black people who can have those conversations in depth and sincerely. That like if you go on call her daddy, yeah, have the conversation on caller daddy that's broader about. But like you're going to get into these conversations with with Alex. and Alice is going to do, I whip my hair back, check my down. I said, you. I told Matt Rogers how much you loved that moment. You're not singing the song right. It's not I whipped my hair back and forth.

What is it? It's, um, now you got me messed up. Y, do y'all know that song? Yo. Wait, hold on, hold on. I'm going to tell you the song. They did it. That's, fuck that shit.

That's funny. It's Lizzo. It's, I do my hair. hair tossed check my nails that's what it is that's what it's Matt started doing it Bowen did it too that's the type of shit that's funny to me it was funny that's funny to me um so yeah

that's interesting I hadn't thought about it like that though I hadn't thought about um you know sort of Michelle Obama talking about her being first lady and some of the you know specific attacks on her once again people saying that she was dude and all of all of those things are coded yeah as direct criticisms and massaging the war against black ladies and she talks about it but does not say what you just said and i do think

that she should go it is a book about women and as well when it gets personal it's about her so that's a different conversation but i understand that all women need to hear this i don't think for me at 40 i'm a little past it but i understand how that audience that's probably like high school, going into college, like this is a new mindset that Michelle Obama is saying we should, we shouldn't be shy about. We should, we should step into this. This is who we are. This is a healthier thing than what I had to go through. I mean, it makes sense. That's why I didn't bother me. But I wish I could have more. The, the, um, the interview was

very widely covered but when I listened to the interview it was pretty standard it's very it's impossible for Michelle Obama to be unimpressive I do wonder though what is it about Michelle that cuts

through so deeply is it because we emotionally connect her to this just pioneering achievement in half blackness when Obama became the president I'm sorry

I'll apologize that this joke guys this pioneering achievement in blackness and it or is it just because just she's just more impressive than everybody else she's simply better like if we we're talking about

Keith we're talking with Keith later about the criticism of Jazz and Crocket, Jackson Crocket Black Lady. We talked about all of the slings and arrows that Kamala Harris has faced. Michelle Obama has faced all of those things. But she remains somebody that I just do not think that people are hung up in identity with the same way.

I think there's a voter for Michelle Obama that there wasn't for Kamala Harris. I think there's a voter for Michelle Obama that there might. not be for Jasmine Crock. And I think there's a lover of her in a different way. I think she's just more famous and more effective as a communicator. Then I'm not comparing all of these people I'm saying, but when we talk about the specific, like, massaging the war and how it limits people's ascension,

does it limit Michelle Obama's ascension in that same way? This is very clunky and odd. But she seems to be somebody who has, when she talks about the limits of, when she talks about even the world not being ready or the United States not being ready for a woman president,

sometimes when she talks, I think, you know, you're right, but you're not talking about yourself because you could do it. Do you ever think, when people threw her name out there that she should run,

did you ever take that seriously that she actually would? No, I actually thought that it was, it was, I thought it was interesting and they did that. It reminded me of how people treated my grandmother. What do you mean?

my grandmother wouldn't volunteer to cook she never people would be like we're going to come over here Sunday and we're going to have some gumbo and she would be like who going to make the gumbo that's what I'm talking about and the whole house would be like well we expected you was going to make it

this is my goal for my mama too like my mom would be like I never volunteered to cook I got my own plans for Sunday like we'll come over here we fry some fish we'll catch some fish come back here could cut up. He's like, I don't know if y'all know, but during that time,

that's when I like to take my walk, so when I saw that they were throwing her name in there, when she has, you know, never said that she wanted to do that, you just reminded that sometimes we, we ask them ladies, then black ladies that we, sometimes we ask them to cook when they never said they was going to do it.

The reason I ask you that is because I think that, the reason I said, did you actually think she would? And you said no. And I'm like, I agree. I think the reason that it was even thrown out and people entertained it, is because there was a romanticizing thing going on there when it came to her and they knew that she actually wasn't running.

So it was just something that they could say, but they knew it was never going to be realized. I also think it makes me think of our conversation with Keith, with she's insanely accomplished, right? Like, brilliant. And if you have not read her first book, please do. You'll get not even halfway through it. and you're like, I mean, it's just incredible who she is and what she's accomplished.

And then with all that still, and she talks about this actually in the podcast, with all that that she had done, it was she's the first lady. And she never felt like, you know, she had to really try to remind people of that. She accepted that role. And then, you know, I think it's that kind of grace and the way that she walks through things. and the we go, they go low, we go high. When you think about the conversation that we have with Keith and that word polarizing, I think that also plays into it.

Michelle Obama is not polarizing. I'm not saying she can't be, but she moves through. And this is something that comes with the pressure of being a black woman at times, of you always are very conscious of the stereotypes that exist out there with you. and Michelle Obama makes conscious moves and moves with grace. I think that that also plays into it. In addition to how amazing that she is on paper, she also presents herself in a way that feels non-threatening to them.

Feels non-threatening to who? White people. You think Michelle Obama's non-threatening to white people? I think that it's when you play and like not play, that's not the word, but I think when you are a certain way, they're like, that's how you should be. You know, she, I think if we had, we asked him a question about black women running,

if we had said Michelle Obama, I think Keith would have been like, yep, she could do it. Because there's a way, she's polarizing in herself as being a black woman. We talk about that too. The identity is there. But her actions are not polarizing. I really don't think so.

When they go low, we go high. I wouldn't say that shit but I commend her for and it's not shit I don't say it like I don't dismiss it I'm just saying that was a very like calm the sentiment is there

but the way that she said it was it was great that's not how Jasmine Crocky would probably say it yeah you know what I think I understand what you're saying when I say I think I understand I mean when you said that I really had to think about it for a second. When you say that,

I think about times that she's kind of held back. Been on the ire of the right, you know, when she talked about she said, I wake up in the morning. So, okay. Michelle Obama asked for his lady.

As for his lady said, I wake up in a, every morning in a house built by slaves. Right. And she was criticized for that. I mean, she would do other stuff that was just like, beyond criticism and she would get criticized,

like when Michelle Obama was trying to institute fitness standards and nutritional standards and all that stuff. People were like, well, we don't want a nanny state. If we want to drink fucking 14 gallons of Mountain Dew, Michelle Obama should not be able to tell us that we can't do that. Like, fast forward 15 years. Like, RFK Jr. is entrusted to go in and just root out every single thing that he thinks, he thinks,

with no scientific backing for a lot of it is unhealthy. That kind of speaks to just authority and who you're supposed to listen to when it's time for you to be healthy or make decisions about yourself. I say all that to say, though, that I think that there's an authenticity with her because she hasn't really been afraid to be criticized

and she's been in tough positions before and she kind of stands on it. Like whenever I'm listening to Michelle Obama, and Barack Obama, to a lesser degree, but whenever I listen to Michelle Obama, I think what I see is a trust in her that she's saying what she actually means. Oh, of course.

That there's an energetic truth that cuts through the politics. And she hasn't been a politician, like, in that way. So maybe there's a different standard. Maybe there's a different threat. Maybe she doesn't have to say things that are going to be like palatable to people to people because she doesn't have to think about whether they're going to vote for her and all that stuff She is essentially a private citizen. So that's the way she should she should be But I don't know whenever she talks there's an authority with her that it's

She's one of the most impressive people I've ever seen. I think you know that cuts through a lot So I guess what you're saying I guess I agree with that. I just never thought about the fact whenever I've heard negative things about her, it's always been from white people. But it's been identity stuff, I feel like, more than, like even her saying I wake up and I live in a house built by slaves. That's tied to identity. And people didn't like it like it.

Oh, so that's interesting. So you say that, you're saying that white people are able to separate Michelle Obama's who she is away from what she says. No. Don't think. Then why? I guess why she's telling me?

I just, I think no, I was why. I think because the way she carries herself, it's like, I think they're like, I can accept that. That's not as threatening. That doesn't make me uncomfortable. And I know it because I've, I've been through, I've been through that. I've been, it's why they pick me as the Bachelorette. They looked at me on paper.

They didn't know a thing about me. They looked at me on paper and they were like, I was told we can understand why she. she would be the first. And it wasn't until a year later that I really started to be, you know, after I was out of contract, speak by mine. And then it was like, oh, no, we don't. I mean, literally people would be like, we don't like that. Oh, she's got an attitude.

Oh, she talks too much. Oh, she's loud. Oh, she's got, she's aggressive. She's a bitch. She's, yeah. So I, and I'm not saying, I think that as a black woman sometimes, and as a public figure like that, there are times you have. to hold back. I don't think

that she always does that by any means, but she's so good in the way that she says things that you can't really go against it because of how she's presenting it to you. And that's part of the art and why she's so amazing and how she does things. Fascinating lady.

Fascinating lady. Another reason why she went on call her daddy guys is because like they put the clip out and they got like one million views like within like whatever. It's like a big deal. It's a huge platform and all of that stuff. interesting. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission.

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about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit Weather Tech.com today. A little sports, Donnie.

Yeah, your team, the Lakers. There was a recent report that came out from ESPN. They indicated that there's some tension between Jeannie Bus and LeBron James. According to the report, sources say that Bus had grown frustrated with LeBron's influence and ego and that that strain reportedly deepened after the Russell Westbrook trade didn't work out exactly as everyone had planned. and after bus reportedly felt that LeBron wasn't appreciative enough after the Lakers drafted his son, Ronnie, in 2024.

Laker fan, Ben Lathen, what are your thoughts on this report? So I'm a right on this, I'm on the substack. Okay. Hotest, hot as stuff. You got a title for it already? Oh, wait a minute. Am I seeing a jam session right now up in the, are they doing jam session? I think I see Julietette.

They got all of these little All of these little windows up here. They said no. I don't use jam session. I see Julietette. Juliet's there. Well, she does other stuff. Bachelor party.

It might be bachelor party. Oh, I see them doing a pile. Oh, look at that. I can see them. Yeah, it's over. It's time. It's all. It's over.

It's time. It's time move on. And that's okay. Do you, who do, I love this kind of stuff, right? because I'm not a big Lakers fan, but this is like some real housewife stuff. You know, you've got this,

this real housewife times succession, right? You got this family. The patriarch is gone or steps down like in succession. You got the infighting within the family. You got the one who took over, who's like, I'm put in charge to make the decisions. You're fired. You're fired.

You're fired. I love watching this from the outside. I love the drama of it all. But how much of it, And now LeBron James got dragged in and Jeannie's obviously said, you know, she hates that he was dragged into their family drama because they sold the team.

So all this stuff is kind of coming out. But how much of it is true? Because I saw that Rich Paul on his show on the ringer. Game over. That's a ringer podcast. Come on. I said his show on the ringer with Max Kellerman. You got to say game over.

Game over. I know you'd finish my sentence for me. That is the hottest anti-Lakers podcast that we got going on. right now. Is it? Number one with a bullet. Is it?

Well, he said he didn't care about all of it, but did say where there's smoke, there's fire. All right, man. Okay. Now talk to us. So, number one, there's a difference between legacy and identity. There's a difference between legacy and identity. No, I like this because you're giving us the substack.

I like this. Yeah. Jeannie Bus and the Bus family, the Lakers, are they. identity. LeBron James, the Lakers, are a part of his legacy. The Lakers to LeBron, they're just another hoe. They are. LeBron has, in my opinion, he's got his family.

He really cares about. He's got causes in the community. He really cares about. He's got basketball that he really cares about. Basketball is a part of LeBron's identity. To me, the team that he plays for is not that big a deal. It's not. It's a big deal from, it's a big deal from the business standpoint, right?

But it's not that big of a deal. The team, they kind of like hose. Like you can bring them in, you know, you use them for whatever. You swap them out. You do whatever because the main thing in town is LeBron James, is him as a basketball entity. That's the most important thing. It's not Cleveland, is not Miami,

is not Los Angeles, it's LeBron. So do you think that some of the infighting, which maybe is true, maybe is not, is that they, as the bus family, since this is their identity, they want LeBron James to accept this as more of an identity than as a legacy, as a pit stop on the way to, you know, whatever else he's trying to build in his legacy? Did they expect him for this,

to be his identity. This is where it ends, which is maybe why they drafted Bronny because that would keep him here longer and then this would be where he ends his legacy. And that's not necessarily what's happening. Most players, no matter how accomplished they are in NBA history, being a Laker becomes their identity. It don't matter. If you are a Laker, it's talking about, shout out to Shannon Brown, man. Shannon Brown was a Laker that

wasn't even like a super important Laker. I love Shannon Brown. Monica's ex-husband. Monica. I don't want to, you know, he's Shannon Brown and she's Monica. It's the union. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm for some other people. It's the union. But my point is

if you are a Laker and you are a role player like Shannon Brown was, a fantastic player in terms of great athlete gave us a lot of memories. but if you're a Laker, you can have Monica, right? Like, you can have Monica.

Like, you can, I'm not saying that the other NBA guys are like, not kidding. What I'm saying is, like, being a Laker, that means something. That normally becomes a player's identity. It becomes the team for a player that can contribute that you are remembered for. At least that's the way it used to be. That's never been the case with LeBron James. Like, he's treated the organization as if it was any other organization. And I think they're actually surprised by that.

I think that LeBron becoming a Laker was more a part of an overall plan that LeBron James had for his life, which means, you know, LeBron comes to L.A. He's in L.A. Spring Hill is popping. He's around the town. It's a part. It's a good story for him to end his career on. But LeBron James, to me, has been the first Laker that has kind of been. bigger than the franchise.

Kobe, historic Laker, really, really put the history of being that above that. Shack, you're going to remember Shack for all the things

that he's done in his career. Remember him as a Laker. Kremal Dujibar was a dominating player before he got to L.A. You're going to remember Kareem as a Laker. Magic Johnson is one of the most famous men on the planet, but even Magic

puts the brand of the Lakers, like either on par or more than his personal brain. He is a part of that magic looks and says, you know, Kobe Bryant-Graiser of all time. He would say that because he uses that moniker as something very, very important in a way to pay homage to Kobe. LeBron was the first one that was kind of like, ah, right? Like, yeah, it's a, it's a team that I play for, but it's like, ah, right? It's like, that's kind of the deal. his son being a Laker, that's not that important to him.

Like it's like the most important thing is that his son is in the NBA. Correct. Like he's not, his son is in the NBA. It's like another team, another thing, another person that adds, another entity that adds to the legacy of LeBron James. I'm not saying this in a way to be hypercritical of LeBron James. I'm just saying that LeBron James does now and always has had a plan. And that plan is to be a basketball player and use his excellence on

basketball court to influence all of these other things. I think there might have been an expectation that he would conduct himself differently, have a different type of reverence for or whatever when he became a Laker. And it's kind of not the thing. I'm not saying that other guys haven't exuded their control over the organization. Magic got a coach fire. Obviously, Kobe kind of held the team, you know, at gunpoint a little bit to kind of get more people around him or else he said he was going to get trained.

I'm not saying none of that's happened. But I'm saying like with LeBron, sometimes it feels like it doesn't really matter to him. It's like that big of a deal. And they were probably taken aback by that. And remember, for them, it's their entire identity. Being a member of the bus family, that is all about this organization,

the history of this organization, what their father built, and all of that. And they probably expected him to be a little bit more appreciative of some of that stuff. And he was probably like, I'm not on that. I'm LeBron James, and there's nothing that, no team that I can play for, that's, that's, that's bigger than me. So this is his last year there.

I don't know if this is this last year there. I know one thing that is going to be hard to win games with, when your best three guys, like, can't defend, okay? I know we need Austin Reeves back. And I know that we should maybe appreciate Austin Reeves. Okay. I know that like if the Lakers are at a crossroads right now to where the decision is whether or not we're going to build a team

around Luca, which Luca just move your feet. Stop talking to the ref. Move your feet. Luca, your new is not a file. Just play through it, run down the court and guard somebody. Luca, every time you get mad at a call you didn't feel like you just put it into, just guard someone,

pinch somebody, blow on someone, untie somebody's shoes. Luca, get a tech, untie somebody's shoes, kick them, like yell at them, you know, even go, yeah, when they shoot, yeah, yeah. Donnie?

My clock says 159, we're almost at the two-hour mark. Shut up, Donna. Let's talk about Taylor Swift. Oh, man. Text messages between her and Blake lively have just gotten public after the illegal dispute between Lively and Justin Valdonny has reached a new stage in the courts. In the text messages, it looks like Taylor Swift called the director of bitch.

In a 2024 exchange with Lively in full, she says, I think this bitch knows something is coming because he's gotten out his tiny, via Lid. Thoughts on the latest updates from the drama. I'm going to be honest with you. I thought this was over. Hell now. I thought there have been so much back and forth,

countersoos, something's been dismissed. When I saw this, I was like, we're still here? They got trial in May. Now I know, I had no idea. You laugh. What do you think about this? People are split. People are split.

I was I was kind of getting sick of Taylor Swift I'm back on the bandwagon now She had you a bitch Yeah hell yeah man Like this is the shit I like Okay Like this has nothing to do

With Blake lively or Justin Baldoni I don't know how in the world This got to be this big of a deal You would have thought this movie was fucking Casablanca For this to be worth it for this movie like I could see if they had made the godfather and everybody was like no I made the godfather right if they had made more better blues

if this was Love Jones and they were like yo I actually I had all the original ideas for Love Jones I had all the original ideas for the Empire y'all fighting like this over this movie what is this about I don't I it to me it's been so much made

over this, would you would you, would you stab somebody over a Capri-Sun? That's what you think the movie is? A Capri-San? It's a Capri-Sun. This is a Capri-Sun movie. It's like, look, this is the last Capri-Sun. If you're not thirsty,

like if you're in the desert, you would stab somebody over a Capri-San, right? What if this was, because this is kind of like Justin's thing, right? Okay, so would I stab somebody over a Capri-San? No. But what if this is the last, not only is it the last Capri Sun, it's the only drink I'm ever going to be able to

have again, because that's kind of where he's coming from. And so... What's a great point. I fuck with Capri's Sons. I like them too. I think they're underrated. I think we don't drink them anymore. I think honestly,

I think honestly what Capri's son should do is like have a line of like hard Capri Suns to where there's a little bit of vodka and the motherfuckers. But I get what you're saying. a big deal for him. This is his break. He's becoming something here and he's in a power struggle and all of this stuff.

But it's got so messy and no one had the foresight to see this is going to hurt us more than it would help us and this movie is not going to be registered in the fucking library and Congress of historic films. Like, take what you get from the movie and say whatever, whatever.

But if it brought out this in Taylor Swift, I'm fucking with it. A little bitch. Bitch out of him. Bitch. I know this, I think this bitch knows something that's coming

because he's gotten out of his tie violin. This is her next album. Her next album to me is T. Swifty, big T. Swifty. Go at everyone. All of her normal enemies. Not the guys in the past that were like,

you know, exes and all of that stuff. That's played out. You know, she got Travis Kelsey now. She turned them back white. We've talked about it. It's like she's one of the greatest magicians ever. just completely turned them back white.

That's fantastic. Now, Taylor Swift, bitch the album. So what you're just... No, go ahead. Go ahead. Bitch the album. No, do a different track about... I'm an idea, man. Do a different track about every bitch. But name names.

Like, name names. Track one, track two, track three, about all are her ops. Her little bitches. Her little bitches. T. Swift's bitches. All are her ops. Because she didn't have a lot of ops. I like this.

I got to tell you I'm into this because people are split, right? Some people are like, I am like, man, we shouldn't be seeing this. This is how girlfriends talk to their friends. Like, right? Like, if you're my girl, these are best friends and somebody's messing with you. This is how I'm talking to you, right? But you're right. It's a side of Taylor we don't normally see.

Some people are like, oh, Taylor and Blake are mean girls. And other people are like, this is how you talk with your friends. When somebody is doing something that you feel like isn't right to your friends. I like it. I think she should embrace it. We've seen Taylor reinvent herself before, but never in this way. Now, of course, you know, immediately,

if she becomes Big Taylor Swift, Big T. Swift, like, bitch this, bitch that, you know they're going to say that she's changing it because she's with Travis. They're going to try that. You know that that's going to happen. But I'm with you. I say it's worth it when I'm weighing it out.

I'm leaning towards Big T. Swift because I think it's something. different and I think I don't know I don't know how it's gonna look but I'm so curious about it I'm with it I'm with Big T Swift we're gonna get to the key my little bitches made me think about something by the way all this came out in newly unsealed court documents and that's how we got all of this stuff has there ever been a couple where they swapped blackness white people white people white couple where one of them was kind of on the one side,

and the other one was on the other side, and then in their union, they did a freaky Friday with Wigger, a Wigger Friday, to where they, in their union, one of them became a little bit more, at least stereotypically, because we're not talking, we're just talking about stereotypes here, and the other one became a little less stereotypically. They swapped. They swapped.

One of them went straight up to the hood And the other one went to the high plains Has that ever happened amongst whites? I really, There are many couples where it happens amongst blacks, many couples, I can think of it, many couples. There are some black celebrity couples that they get together So they can pull apart.

You can get me here and then I can get you there. There are many black couples that have happened, but I don't know if there are any white couples. Like this would be like, like, you know, M&M fucking with Miley Cyrus and that's not a good example whatever I haven't worked this out but that would be interested if that happened

if he started cosplaying yeah and then he stopped if they ships passing in the night gotta think about this some more yeah I think about this but we're here for it embrace this step into this I guess I would

it would be interesting if it happened I don't really give a fuck but what I will say is this right here when everybody was like how could Taylor Swift talk like this I'm like nah this is the next thing. But she talks like this in some of her music. Does she? She talks, you would know you put karma on the song.

I did put karma on the song. I like certain songs. Yeah. You won't catch me at a concert or, you know. You probably disappointed Scooter by doing that. Scudor probably was going through your IG and then he saw that. And then he was like, damn, I thought that was my home girl. Why should get it to me?

I know that did not happen. All right. It's Keith Edwards time. Before we get to Keith Edwards, I want you guys to, next week is going to be a heavy news week. Heavy news. So I want you guys to pay attention to a couple of things. Well, I'm going to give you guys some homework.

Watch Trump in Davos, Switzerland, talking about the United States and the geopolitical quagmire. He has almost started by himself with Greenland, be concerned with Trump's Board of Peace, his attempt to realign the international order around himself, which is what he's doing, be concerned with ICE, ice deployments in new American cities and not just deployments, but new accusations and testimonies by Americans about how they've been treated by ICE.

Got to a point to where the Minneapolis police held, like, and Sheriff's Department, like a joint press conference and talked about the fact that it happened in Minnesota up there, should I say, Talked about the fact that some of their officers when they are off duty have been targeted by ICE. Talked about this. They went and they did this. They talked about the fact that they feel like ICE is getting out of control. To be concerned with all of that and do not lose track or sight of either what's happening with the Justice Department and the Epstein files and also what is going on with AI. Ed Zittran is coming back on this show to talk more about AI.

I hope to get Autumn on the show next week and sometime in the next couple of weeks to talk about her Academy Award nomination, but there's a lot of stuff going on. A lot of entertainment stuff we did today. Keep your ear to the grindstone. I keep it to the grindstone. That's what we do here.

So you guys be aware of all of that stuff because we're going to hit it hard. I'm going to hit hard next week. All right. This is the one that you guys. has been waiting for. Yep, they have. Rachel, you intro it.

Keith Edwards. We're introed to the top of the show. Keith Edwards. On the other side is break. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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All right. Coming to you from New York, Rachel's there in Los Angeles, and she's joined by someone. There's someone white on the set. It doesn't happen very often, but this is smoke. It's smoke that has been brewing for a long time.

Keith Edwards, Big time media personality, political strategist, a commentator. It's known for his work in political communications. He has a gigantic YouTube following. And let's just get right to it. There has been at least somewhat of a back and forth between Keith and higher learning fans. I have never directly engaged with Keith. I don't know that Rachel has ever.

I had one comment. I said you took it out of context. Yeah, you replied to one of my posts. Yep. she replied to one of his posts and I called Keith out and said come talk to us and Keith said you know what I duck nothing and he joins us

on higher learning today Keith Edwards how are you? Hey nice to see you thanks for having me thanks for having me thank you for being here we didn't know if you were going to come so we do you came we appreciate I gotta say I think this is really important because as I was saying before we started filming like the internet has a way of flattening everything making everyone either good or evil

right or wrong and I think the great thing about podcast is there's nuance. And I think so much of what we've lost on, at least like internet discussions is nuance. Yeah. So I'm really grateful to be here. I couldn't agree more. So let's start with this. Why don't like Jasmine Crockett? Wow. Can I ask, what's the, what, what, name you the thing that you hate most about her? I, what bothers you so much about? I think Jasmine Crockett is amazing at what she does. I think she is a great politician. I actually think she has been a net benefit for Democrats. And I think she has been a force in what has been really an overwhelming moment in the media where Republicans are controlling

the narrative. And she's been brilliant at being able to throw a little bit of punches and landing some hits. So I think she's been great. I think she's been great. I have a hard time We have to put that stuff aside, though. And I have a hard time seeing how she can win a Senate race in Texas. But that doesn't mean I don't like her. I like Jasmine Crockett. I've talked about her in my channel. Some of my highest viewed videos have been Jasmine Crockett videos.

So I like her. Okay, before I get into the Jasmine Crockett, because Van is ready, geared up, ready to go. One of the things I've said about you on the podcast is when Van and I kind of have a back and forth, look at him frowning over there. wishing he was here with us. You're putting ice cubes on the goddamn week. We're into it.

No, no, no. Because one of the things that I've called out is called out is your platform and what it is. Because the way Van and I talk about it, you know, Van will say, well, you don't have to say certain things about one candidate or the other, which is true. And then I say, well, you have a political platform where I feel like you're pouring out information for us to consume. Rather, it feels one-sided. So can you just tell our viewers, just? just flat out before we even get into it all, because don't worry, Van, I'm going to come back. What is your platform? What is it that you actually do? Are you just reporting? Are you giving

your opinions so that we can set a baseline for that before we get into everything? I consider myself a political commentator. I think people come to me to get news, but I don't consider myself a journalist. I do secondhand reporting where I'm just talking about what other people have reported on, and I give my opinion. So I don't consider myself someone that you'd want go to for like both sides of a of a of an argument so I really am just giving my opinion are you campaigning for James no no no no it feels that way well I mean I I I'm campaigning for Democrats to win control of the Senate I'm I'm I really want Democrats to get power again so that's that that that is the the basis behind everything I'm doing to that point though is it possible

let's talk about James Talarico before even getting to the Jazz McRocket thing like Rachel said she just took the momentum right out of it like let's talk about this is it possible that what's happening in Texas is that Talarico came along and a lot of people thought that he represented

an opportunity to turn the state blue at least for that Senate seat and they got behind that even you could say that higher learning was very excited. about him and they got behind that and they're a little annoyed with Jasmine jumping into the race because they feel like either the primary process will hurt him or they feel like they can't

be critical of her because of identity. Like James Talariko, if this was another white guy, you could look at him and say, James Tala Rico's a lot better than this guy. But it seems like Jasmine is pissing you guys off or pissing some. people off because you had already hit strawagon paths behind James and now here comes somebody else and on top of it is somebody that whenever you criticize then people get mad. Well, I think it's everyone's right to run. I'm such a I'm a big believer in primaries. I think if she feels like she has something to add to the conversation and if she feels like she can best represent the state and

if she thinks that she can actually win the state, she should absolutely run. I don't I don't, I don't I don't have any problems with that. I don't think a lot of people do either. I think primaries make politicians healthier. I think they make campaign stronger. And I think they make us better to know like where, like actually this has been great because we can like see these fault lines in the Democratic party that maybe we just didn't know still were there. So I think to your point that the fact that people are super critical of someone like me just for being critical of someone running for higher office is good to know. This is all good information. So I don't think we should. be upset at Jasmine or anyone else who says that they feel like they can best represent the people

in their state or their community. Can I double back real quick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me tell you, like, to add a little bit more onto that is that what some people feel like is when she got into the race, there really wasn't, and there are some people who have to do this and some people who don't. We talked about that. There really wasn't any analysis of who she was or what she's done.

Jasmine Crockett is a pretty fully formed political entity. That wasn't the thing. It seemed like for a lot of people, the first thing they heard is that A, she can't win. James is a better choice to win. And we didn't get into because she has a national political record that he doesn't have. Sure. And it kind of wasn't looked at from that point of view. It seems like a lot of people were saying not going to happen, not going to happen, not going to happen, and bad idea.

And so for the people that were critical of pundits who had something to say about Jasmine Crockett, I think it feels like to them that her candidacy took the wind out of the sales of James Talleyico's rise a little bit. That could potentially be true. I don't know. Is it true with you? No, no. I don't, I mean, I think it, I actually think it's been great. It actually probably has given more attention to the primary or to the, to the election that maybe otherwise wouldn't have been there. I know not a lot of people were really focused on it when it was just him and the gentleman that dropped out. I forget his name at the moment. Al Red. Yes. Al Red. Yes. And so it was kind of like, it was this thing happening in the back. It was a loham. And I think it's kind of brought it to the forefront. And I, but I don't really think it.

should be upset that people are running for office. I mean, I was never the type of person that like when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, that like you shouldn't run. It's not, you know, it's not your turn. I hate that. I hate that. Can we swear? Yes.

I hate that shit. I hate it. If you think you have a good idea, if you think you can best represent your people, run. Run. And I think we can, in hindsight now, I think we can see that Bernie Sanders running probably did create, though he didn't win. I think he won in the long run, because he created a complete movement of people who believe what he believes and has kind of shaped the party in a new direction.

So I do think primaries are good. I think they're good. Now, I don't think what's good is that when we're critical, the people who decide that they want to run for higher office, and we say, all right, well, how are you going to win? Where are you going to get the votes? You've said these things. Don't you think the things you've said are going to impact the way that the second largest voting block in the, the state is going to think about you. I think that those are important questions to ask because we need to make sure that we run the right person. And so to the 2016 example, I think when Hillary

Clinton was just like, well, get out of her way. It's her turn. Get out of her way. I don't actually think that made it stronger. So I think we actually do, we should have these conversations and to try to shut someone up just because they're critical of your candidate for some sort of perceived reason that isn't there doesn't make your candidate stronger and doesn't make the party stronger. And I think that's like that's some of the stuff I want to get into because there really isn't a poll or data that says Jasmine Crockett cannot win. That really isn't there. And then on the other side of it, you can really argue that, you know, as Van said, that Jasmine Crockett really is an established entity. She's a national public figure. We know who she is. You can make an argument and

there is polling to show that a lot of people don't know James Talleyco. I think that that can change based on the primary. I think that that can change off the debate that's coming up this week. So it's hard to, so I think where you see some of the criticism is how do you know it's James and it's not Jasmine? What are you basing that off? Well, first off, Jasmine Crockett's never had to run in a competitive race ever. James Tala ricko has. He's had to run in a competitive general election against a Republican. Jasmine Crackett never had. Now, she could be great at it.

We don't know. James has. She did for the Democrats, for her seat. Because when she took over for Eddie Bernice Johnson, there were a lot, like, she was backed by Eddie Bernice, but she did. It was competitive within. I'm saying versus a Republican. Okay.

And the Abbott-Taleroico voter isn't an idea. It exists. There are many, like, he won in 2018, uh, uh, district. that Abbott carried. He flipped it. That to me is good information. It's good information. And it was actually Washington posted a piece on this today where a pollster in Texas who's

not working with either of the candidates said that she actually has reverse mobilization where Jasmine, if she were to be on the ballot, may very well actually bring out more Republicans votes because she's so polarizing. She compared it to like Marjorie Taylor Green. Margaret Taylor Green were to run, there might be a polarization effect on the Democratic side that would bring out more Democrats to vote against her. Why is she polarizing? Well, Jasmine Crockett is extremely anti-Trump in a state that I think there's a lot of people who probably support Trump. I mean, maybe not in the way that they used to, but she is a lightning rod. And you kind of have to be to do what

she's done, which is to build name ID and to become a national figure. So it's being good for her. I just don't know if it's being good for her to win a general election in Texas. So can I do one follow-up fan? Oh, go ahead. No, no, no, no, you got it. One follow-up. I think the other thing, too, is you did a video where you talked about your reasoning as to why you think Jasmine can win versus, I'm sorry, why you think James can win versus Jasmine, like your opinion based off that. And you say something in your video, and this is where I think it gets a little confusing for me. and maybe some people who are a little critical. So in your video, you say you want to lay some things out

and see that this is all about doing what's right for a right and strategic decision in the primary. And so you're like, I just want to lay out this information. But when you look at your social, it doesn't feel like you're laying it out in a fair way. It seems like, and I'll give you some examples. It seems like you're only showing one side of James and then only showing one side of Jasmine.

And this is where I think the critique is coming from. You know, with Jasmine, you put her, her campaign video out, which we talked about here. And then versus James, which again, we talked about. But then Jasmine very quickly spoke to her constituents in Dallas for 40 minutes. Can I talk about that? Oh, you know, okay, I'll just finish it. Well, I feel like she talked about her for 40 minutes and showed a different side of Jasmine

versus what the video showed. Sure. But that wasn't evident on your platform. But that's bad campaigning. Why? Because the thing most people are going to see is your launch video. Okay. So if she wanted people to see that side of her, that should have been the launch video.

But 45-minute speech that's with a low production value, not a lot of people are going to pay attention to that. And that's just a bad campaign strategy. But isn't, but having a political platform, wouldn't you say that it's worth showing to voters? Like, I'm presenting this, this Jasmine is more than just this video. And again, it's your platform. You're right. I'm just saying why people say it's critical. Or you post a picture of Jasmine, you know, on an A-PAC trip, but there's nothing about James Tilarico in that letter that he sent out about how he feels about Israel.

It just feels like, hey, I'm going to show that Jasmine gets all this money from big donors that are Republicans. But I'm not going to talk about the controversial donor that James Tilarico has behind him. Even if it was to support a different cause, she's still putting a lot of money behind them. It was $50,000 and it was through a pact, not directly to him, but yes. Right. It wasn't for that purpose, but it's still money that's received. So it's like. Keith. Yeah.

It's Miriam Ayleson. It's Miriam. Yeah, I know. Not great. I know. So that's, I guess that's what I'm just saying is it's not presenting it as a way for people to. I'm a commentator. And my, I believe James has the best shot of winning.

That is what I believe. Now, I think, I think it's going to still be hard. I've worked in primaries. I've worked in competitive primaries. I think about this all the time where the overwhelming narrative in my primary, someone running for a governor in Florida. We were the underdogs and there was someone else running who was a former governor, was that you cannot win. You cannot win this primary. And even if you were to win this primary, there's no way you're going to win this general election.

The job of our campaign is not to tell you why you're wrong because you're misogynistic. and you blah la la la la la la it is to show you how we're right and i what i what i am trying to do on my platforms is show you why i'm right okay and so if jasmine crockett thinks she can win in texas that's good show me how i haven't seen it in fact there's a quote today where she told me well if we're all we're not me but she told the washington's most if we're both, I'm paraphrasing, if we're both going to lose, why not just try me? Because, you know, maybe we can try something different.

It's like, I don't want to know how you're going to lose. I want to know how you're going to win. When I worked on a campaign for U.S. Senate in Georgia, there were people on that campaign that were like, we are not going to win. I was like, then why the fuck are you working on this campaign? Because I believe we're going to win. I believe we're going to win. politics is a this is an old time quote politics is the art of uh it is the art of what's possible

don't tell me what's impossible tell me what's possible i'm trying to show you why i think this is possible i actually do think james salarico is like a generational talent i love the way he talks about god and christianity um i think one of the most crazy things he says is that donald trump is a child God, just like you and me. That's a while to hear. But I think it's also like, I think we have to move past the politics of division. And I like what he's offering. And I think it actually, there's something there. There's a specialness there that I think could work in Texas. Now, I'm not saying it will. I think it could. I haven't seen on Jasmine's side a serious campaign that is actually looking to grow the base. In fact, in that Washington Post article today, she again does,

double down that. She just doesn't feel like she needs Trump voters. I would like to know how. I would like to know how. She says that it's because that she can bring out a different type of voter. Well, okay. How? Donald Trump is the most famous man in the world. He even had, it was called Trump Force 47. I think I'll get that right. It was a community organizing effort in swing states where he gave people special hats and they were in charge of their neighborhood to make sure they brought out low propensity voters. The most famous man in the world had to persuade voters. And you're telling me that she does not. I don't believe that. Now, she might believe that to be true. That is the job of the campaign to show me how that's possible. A couple things. It was interesting to me what you said about Marjorie Taylor Green.

What you said about Marjorie Taylor Green was that Marjorie Taylor Green was someone that, and before I even say this, I don't have a problem. problem with you deciding that you like a candidate, a candidate, and then backing that candidate on your platform. I don't have a problem with it. I do not have a problem with that. I do that. I'm not going to sit here and what's the gentleman in Missouri?

Wesley Bell, is that his name? The one that got Corey. He got all the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who got all the APAC money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who goes back by APAC. You guys make sure I have that right.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm going to support him. over Cory Bush so that people that people that are listening to higher learning can feel like I'm being fair. I'm not going to do that. We talked about it before. I'm not going to pretend like, oh, let's look into what I'm done.

I look at candidates and then I come on the podcast and I tell people why I support who I support. I have no problem with anyone doing that. I will say this, though, and I think it's interesting to note a couple of things. You said earlier that Marjorie Taylor Green is somebody that mobilizes voters Democratic voters to come out and vote, right?

Now, she was in... Polster said, yes. Polsters say that. Now, she was in a district where she had a tremendous advantage, right? However, the fact that she riles up Democrats and motivates them to vote

doesn't change the support base that she has within her own party. The fact that she annoys Democrats, the fact that she gets people out to come vote, you could make the argument that Donald Trump himself gets people

out to vote specifically against him. Does it change the strength of the base or how people look at these candidates running? What they do is they take these people and regardless of how they make the other side feel

they take these people and they pour money into them and they try to dominate. They say this is the candidate that we like. Doesn't matter what you do and they try to dominate. Sure. So I think it's interesting in this particular situation. I understand the complexities of it, that that would be a thing that would be brought up.

I understand the complexities of it. If you have a guy that can appeal both to Abbott voters and to Democrats, I can understand why that prospect would be alluring. Okay. Something else you said, you said, politics is about what's possible. Well, that's not as true if you're a black lady. because what we're talking about as it relates to Jasmine Crockett how this conversation started was about what's not possible. And even that, like, I don't have a problem with any of that stuff.

Like, I don't think she can win. I don't think she can win. I don't think she can do it. I don't think she can win. That's going to bother people. And if we're going to have a conversation and a conversation is going to be honest, within our coalition. Sure.

And the conversation is going to be honest about how, we perceive each other, that, hey, you can't do it. Let's, we've tried two ladies, one black lady. What we're going to do now is find a white guy that we like the most. And let's get back to the center. Listen, listen, hold on, hold on. I'm not saying that you're saying that. No, no, no, no.

I'm not saying that you're saying that. What I'm saying is I can understand that being a knee jerk. And if that's the case, just tell us. make the case plain, make it loudly, and make it clearly, because there are a lot of people who might actually go for that. But if they feel the twinges of the other stuff, we're going to end up doing this. And I think that has to be considered when we're having these conversations, whether or not I think what you did and said is fair or not. And I don't think that it's unfair. But I do think if you're going to be in coalition with people that there might be concerns that they raise that you have to take on a little bit.

Fair. Fair. Do you think a black woman can win the U.S. Senate seat in Texas? I think a black woman can win a U.S. tenant. Yes, yes. Do I think Jasmine Crockett? I think Jasmine Crockett has a hard time. I think that's the difference.

is that it's not, it's not just like, I actually think a black woman with the right, with the right politics and who is truly, I don't want to say a moderate, but someone who is not polarizing, because I think that's part of Jasmine Crockett's brand, is that she's a polarizing figure in a place that you actually need to mobilize and persuade people who might otherwise not vote for you. Can I ask you a question real quick? Give me a black woman that's in politics right now who isn't polarizing. Well, I don't think Stacey Abrams was very polarizing, was she?

That's crazy. Was she? I don't know if polarizing is the word that I would use, but not as, go ahead. I wouldn't say that she was like, she wasn't fiery, but they essentially made Stacey Abrams. Like, they made Stacey Abrams, in my opinion, like, to me, the mascot of like, they, she was attacked big time. She was a terrorized. She wasn't polarizing, though.

And she almost won. Yeah, well. I mean, I mean, yeah. I think because, and I hate to keep going back to this, but I think that this is such an important conversation because this is what kind of drew us all in together. Sure. Was not being able, one, like you talked about,

things on social media are very flat. When you're doing a podcast, you can have a conversation and you could talk about these things a little bit more. And that's why I keep going back to, which I do feel like I have a better understanding of, you know, you're giving your, this is what you feel like can win. And that's what you're putting out there versus me saying to you, can you put it out more evenly? Because that's what's kind of been the critique. And I think if that was more of the response, maybe that, and maybe I missed it on social media,

then maybe people would feel a little different. Because I, like, even going back and looking at your stuff, you have been very positive. of Jasmine Crockett and you've liked the callout and, you know, you've liked the brand and I think a lot of people do. But then it feels like that's only good over here. And it doesn't, it won't work here. It feels like it's positive here and stay in this place, but it immediately we're riding it off here, which is why I ask you, do you think a black woman can win in a Senate seat in Texas? And then if you do, it's like, well, then what type of black woman? can it be? Like, who is that person? And then I'll ask you on the other side of it, let's just say

Jasmine Crockett does win the primary. I've seen you say you're going to support Jasmine Crockett. Do you feel like your lack of putting the other side that I've said out there? You know, like I feel like you're showing one side of Jasmine and one side of James. Do you feel like that is hurting the Texas voter? Because you've only talked about it a necessary way. You've been more critical of Jasmine for Texas, then positive. So how do you then switch it? And I think Van and I talked a little bit about that for, and I'm not saying you can't be critical, but how do you then rally voters to now get behind Jasmine?

Because you've talked about the things that you're not seeing from her, which I do think are there. And I'll do a follow up at a second. But how do you then rally people to say, okay, now we're going to vote for her? And this is why, not just because she's the Democrat, why they should vote for her. Well, I think that's the campaign's job to help sell that. But I personally don't believe being critical of politicians and primaries hurts them. I think it helps them.

And everything that I've posted about is going to be used against her in a general election. And so she needs to have answers for it now if she were to win. I don't think the answer she's given so far. I mean, she was asked about the Latino, you know, where she says that like compared Latinos who are immigrants. to slaves. She answered that on Jake Tapper, I thought, not very well. And I think she needs to have a better answer for that. But I think, you know, beautiful things happen when someone wins an election. It's kind of like it's, it's like a rebirth, right? And so like Joe Biden, Joe Biden had Kamala Harris as his VP. Kamala Harris famously called him racist in the primary. You know, like there's a way in

which primaries are for battling and then elections are for coming together. And I'm 100% know that regardless of who wins the primary, we can champion that person and do the best job that we can to try to get over the finish line. I just personally believe that it, that there's a lot of complications of things she said in the past. And her brand for last, of a better word that makes it, makes it more complicated. Do you feel like you're listening to locals in Texas when it comes to what the voters actually think and are saying about this, this primary? Because Jasmine Crockett and James Soutreco really aren't that far off on the issues that

they stand for. They're very, they're quite similar. And so if you listen, there's a lot, I feel like there's a lot of undecided voters. And I'm wondering maybe whether it's critics. I know you've gone back and forth with Erica Harrison, Black Girls Who Brunch. She's very active there in Harris County throughout Texas. Are you listening to maybe some of the critiques that they have

or maybe even the information they have in regards to what is really going on in Texas when it comes to this primary? I know you're quoting like... I kind of feel like on the Internet, I mean, if we were to have a conversation, probably it would be easier to listen. but I do think a lot of the critiques about my

understanding of what's happening in this race have been kind of just bad faith attacks and so it makes it hard for me and I want to listen to their analysis when it's kind of wrapped in a shit sandwich to be honest. Because like the examples... Be clear, I haven't attacked anyone.

Well, you posted Erica's profile on and like, so what's, if that's not an attack, what's the purpose? You took her profile, you posted it, and you were like, this woman has been coming after me with false information and stuff. But when you post that to your following, what purpose is that other than for people to attack that person?

No, it's not to attack. It's to actually just make aware of like something, to make aware of like one that I said, hey, you got this wrong. Do you want to correct the record? She didn't want to do that. I was like, all right, well, that's good to know. Because if I get something wrong,

I try to say I got that wrong or I made a mistake. What did she get wrong? Just saw our audience now. Well, I mean, it was that you said that I took a clip of yours out of context, and then a week later you commented on this and said that I did not take it out of context. I know I didn't take it out of context. Well, yeah, Van Setzer. I didn't feel like you took out of context.

Rachel did. Well, regardless, and I said, do you want to just quickly because she really went hard on me. Like, I was turning on threads as like being a racist and all this sort of stuff. because of, just because of political analysis from critiques I've had on this campaign, I'm totally willing to bear the brunt of that for what I believe in. But when someone gets something wrong and they're not able to like, oh, yeah, you're right, you know, he did whatever. And it becomes like, I'm actually not going to even acknowledge.

It's just then it's like, all right, well, that's good to know because I actually don't know if I can trust your analysis if like you can't admit when you get something, when you miss the mark. Yeah. I think when I was looking at some of the back and forth that the two of you have, which I, you know, we can agree to disagree. But if I've, because I've done it before, right? Where like somebody's come at me and I've posted it on my stories. And it's kind of like, I want, like, do what you will with this information. Because this person's coming at me. So it kind of felt that way. But when I was looking at Erica, because I follow her, she's like, she has said, I. I don't think. She doesn't think that you're a racist. But what she said was, and she says she's undecided in voting. But what she said was kind of this intent versus impact. And it feels like, even though your intent means no harm, the impact of some of the thing, the information in the way that you're putting out there, whether I'm not saying I agree with that, but the way you're putting

it out there has this, it feels like it has this undertone. What would you say to that? I mean, I, you have to, I mean, I've, I've worked, I've, I've built accounts on the internet for the Lincoln project from like 200,000 followers to 2.4 million. You don't do it by being nice. Okay. Unfortunately, there's, there's a way to get things seen the internet and you have to be a little bit abrasive. I hate that about it, but that's just kind of how it is. And so I think it's the abrasiveness and the maybe the way in which I'm short and how I explain how I think that can look. can look a certain way, but I am just doing that because I'm trying to get the thing that I'm trying to talk about in front of as many people as possible. And eventually, you'll see, like, even that clip with Matt Rogers where he was like, I don't think, I don't think you should donate to Jasmine Crocket, guys, because I don't think she can get elected. I'm, I'm the one who shared that clip and got that viral. So, like, I kind of have a sense of what I'm doing here, and I've done campaigns for a long time, and I know how to advocate for what I believe. And so,

if people are going to misconstrue that, if they don't want to actually meet me where I am with my ideas and just attack me for something that's not there, then I just think that that means that they don't have a lot that they can stand on and what they believe, because I'm just telling you what I believe. I'm just saying what I think about this campaign, who can win, who can't win, why? Here's some clips and some things that are being said that I think are interesting. And instead of like countering with that, with like, well, here's what I think, here's what I believe. it's actually just a personal tech.

And I don't think that is, I don't think that speaks very highly the people who are doing it. Well, okay, fair enough. I'll say a couple things. Number one, I do not agree with the both of you guys. I don't agree with you guys that Stacey Abrams isn't polarizing.

All right, I just want to let you guys know. I don't agree. I just don't like the Star Trek stuff. I don't think she's polarizing in the way that Donald Trump is, is polarizing. Or even a jazz. I think that Stacey Abrams is polarizing. is polarizing even inside of the party.

And I think that if you ask her, she would probably say that. I definitely think that she's polarizing. Number one. A couple of things here, because I want to get to the conversation that we're actually having, the thing that we're actually talking about. It's interesting that you just said that there's a way that you have to communicate in that way is not necessarily nice. Am I?

I don't think I'd say, because that would imply it's mean. I don't think it's mean. I think it's just abrasive. I think there's a tone in which you have to say. say things on the internet if you want them to travel beyond your small following. Okay, cool. Let's say that me and you are in a restaurant or somewhere or something like that, and in front of me is a black lady and she's ordering something. You are, she's actually ordering it from you. You're serving her. You're like, you're waiting on her. And you say to her,

you say to her, lady is busy here. Just give me. Just give me. me your order. Do you know what I'm going to say? Don't talk to her like that. Like reflects, I'm going to be like, hey, don't talk to her like that. Even if I fuck up and talk to her wrong, because that happens. Sometimes I have to be told that. But immediately in my soul, if I see you being abrasive surrounding like a black lady, I'm going to be like, don't talk to her like that. Like just, hey, do your job. Do what you got to do. Don't talk to her like that. And that's because we actually don't want to, what you hit on right there. is actually what we're talking about.

What people see is a lack of care inside of a coalition that purports to care about black women. Well, I would like to. Wait a second. No, no, no, no, no. Let me, wait a second. I'm not saying you. I'm not saying that you purport to care about black women.

I'm not saying that you have a lack of care. What I'm saying is that this is happening on the left. This is happening within a coalition. And beneath us voting the same, way, there are questions about whether or not there cracks, not in the intelligentsia of what we're doing from a political standpoint, but in the community. Like, that's what it is. Like, are there cracks in the community of what it is that we're doing?

Meaning, if, in fact, politics is a rough sport and everybody kind of gets roughed up a little bit, is there an understanding that it means a little bit something different sometimes when that roughing up is coming from a black man, from a white man to a black woman? Is there an understanding of what that means? And we're having this conversation with America all the time, whether or not America looks like Keith or not, right? Now, if you say, I don't care, I don't care about that, I shouldn't have to care about that. That's not a real calculation I should have to make. I'm not so sure that there are not a lot of people. who would agree with you.

Like, I agree with you about primaries. Primaries is where you're supposed to get your ass kicked. It's where all of this shit, we had Gavin Newsom on. I asked Gavin Newsom about APEC. He answered it fucking terribly. I did him a favor. The next time he gets asked that, he should be able to answer it better,

particularly if he's in the general, if he's running for president, right? You should be able to answer that. That's what you're supposed to do. I will say this, though, and I'll ask you this. When you're going back and forth with people, like, and they are black, black ladies and there is an appearance of a power matrix there.

Do you get why we want you to be nice and civil and partly protective of black women? Do you understand where that comes from? If I'm being honest, how I act, I feel like how I've acted with Jasmine Crockett is no different than I've acted with any other candidate or any other politician. I agree. So I don't, I just don't understand. I just don't understand why with this specific person, I literally, when I trended on threads first and I was being called a racist,

do you know the post that made that happen? It was the clip where she was saying, I don't need to win Trump voters. And literally all I said was I think. you do. I think you need Trump voters to win in Texas. And it was like, how dare you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just don't, again, like, I can take it. I just don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's a healthy response to what is the most mild. It's not even criticism. It's just, I just think it's analysis. So I don't, I don't fully understand. I don't fully understand that knee-jerk thing that happens in the internet in some area i mean i guess i kind of do i think there's people who have made a

living off of rage baiting and clout chasing and you know some people that is how they get the following is they is they see someone like me and it's like a prime opportunity to get some likes and i wait a second hold on so so you think their response to that is insincere you don't think they mean it i i i think there is an ins i i don't know actually i've been told that people think i'm actually racist so i don't know maybe they actually sincerely think i'm racist But hold on. Whether or not they think you're racist or not, let's stay here for a second. So because this is very interesting.

As we talk and get this all stuff, get this stuff out. You think when someone sees, even if they're wrong, let's say even if they're wrong and they're analyzing how you talk about or communicate about Congresswoman Crockett, you think they don't mean it. Do you think they don't feel the feelings that they're feeling? Do you think they're doing it for likes and clicks, or do you think they're just wrong? Because those are two different things.

One is just, hey, we need to have conversations about how we're less hung up on identity in situations like that. That is a conversation that needs to be had. I agree. The other one is... I think these are actually... I think they're the same conversation. Sorry to cut you off, but I do think they're the same conversation.

They're not. Let me tell you why. Because, well, tell me why. Because I'll tell you why. Okay, I'll tell you why. One is saying toughen up. The other one is saying, stop lying. One is, so one is saying you are genuinely in a place that is unhelpful to even you.

You are genuinely there. You genuinely see things happening where they're not seeing, where you shouldn't be seeing them. You're looking at mirages. The other one is saying that you are specifically weaponizing. your identity. You're specifically weaponizing the pain and massaging a war and all of those things that you have a thought that when you see a mark, you take that mark down and you use your identity to take that mark down. That view of it is cynical. And it actually assigns a real, real, like insidious, insidious set of values to a whole group of people. That makes them into

bots or they're trying to come up off you or anything like that. The other one is something that can be discussed. The first one is the second one can't. Those people would have to be excised out of the political conversation. You'd have to just get rid of them all. I don't think everyone who's gotten mad at me does it in bad faith. I think there are probably people who don't really consider much and they just want to pull the trigger on something that that looks like they can get some likes. And I think it's probably a little bit of both, to be honest. And I hate that. I hate that. But, but, but, and I could be wrong. You know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am. It feels like there are some accounts on the internet that they just, they, they, they do really traffic in this type of content where they see someone like me.

And it's like automatically racist, automatically. thinking like the lowest opinion of like why I why I'm saying what I say. So I don't know. I hope not actually. I hope not. But I do think there does need to be a conversation

around identity and around the way in which it's being being used to... Start it right here. Give us your thoughts. Well, I feel like, I mean, it feels, it feels, if I'm being completely honest, as a white guy, which by the way, I, like, it's like, it's, I'm just born white. Like, it's not, like, I, I don't, it, but it does feel like there is. I know, I know, I know it's been hard. Yeah, but there is like.

I know it's been really tough. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. At first I thought you're being sincere. I was like, I am. Keith, you gotta let me get joke. You gotta let me get my joke. No, I know, I know. You just say, hey, I'm a white guy. I can't help it. I was born this way. I know.

No, but it does feel like that. I can't imagine. It feels like you can't talk about it. Yes. It feels like you're not a lot to talk. Like, I feel like I'm in so much trouble already, so it's fine. You're not, no, no, you're not because we really want to have this conversation because you're not the only person that's happening to. Again, we had, it was a whole Matt Rogers,

Bowen-Yang thing. And I understand what you're saying. Like Vand said, he has to be Vand. You have to, he has to do things. Hold on. By the way, I don't think that any of, I don't think that, Rachel, I apologize. No, no. No, just finish your thought. Just go ahead. No, I don't think that any

of the coverage you've done about Jazz, it hasn't bothered me. No, it hasn't. It literally hasn't. It hasn't bothered me. It hasn't bothered me. It hasn't bothered the Boeing Yang thing and all of that stuff. None of that stuff bothers me. I'm here to talk about it all. I actually, think though the more that I talk to you I do think that you that there is something where you feel like

or not you let's not personalize it I do feel like we sometimes get into these discussions it's the same reason why I thought that you know grand platiner should talk to black people about what's going on we still don't want to believe that the emotions that black people feel around their protection are genuine, that I think is worth examining. Because if we're having a conversation about identity and how we have to let go of identity, the question would be is why we're so touchy about it. Like what makes you so touchy about it.

This is what I'll say. When I ask you, because it is, you should be able to be critical. We talked about that. I said that I actually don't even think that Jasmine Crockett would like, I think she's fully capable of stepping up to the challenge and she would love to show herself that way.

and I'm sure we will see it in this debate coming up this weekend. I do think that we do ourselves a disservice when you cannot fully critique even if we are being protective for whatever reason because that is what we do within our community. But I do think that some of the sensitivity comes in, for example, when I say, do you think a black woman can run? And you're like, yes. And then you're like, but Jasmine Crockett is polarizing.

That doesn't get that label. And that's not you saying that. She is polarizing to people. It would be like saying Marjorie Taylor Green isn't, like she's a polar. But that doesn't really become, it's not really a negative for a non-black person. And that's where the sensitivity comes. But it is. Nobody's-Harether Green is not running for Senate or governor, even though she wanted to because even

Republicans knew that if she were to be on the ballot, that's one of the reasons. But think about why they're polarizing. Think about why they're polarizing, right? They are both. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me just finish this.

They're both polarizing, right? Yeah. But think about why Jasmine is versus why. why Marjorie Taylor Green is. Marjorie Taylor Green is a conspiracy theorist. I mean, she's put out lies, misinformation, disinformation where Jasmine Crockett, let's be honest, she's polarizing

because she, as a black woman, holds her ground, and that intimidates a lot of people. So that's what I mean about the fairness of it, is it's almost, it's faulty to compare them because she is polarizing because she's a black woman. Marjorie is polarizing in different. in style or substance, but I just mean to compare them in the way that they're extreme partisans.

That is the comparison, but not in style and substance. But do you understand what I'm saying is to like where there's this sensitivity? Because Jasmine really is polarized. It's not because she's controversial. It's because she is who she is as a black woman. And that is, that makes a lot of people feel white people feel threatened. That makes sense to me. And that is not that same like, um,

stereotype is not put on white people. And so that's where I think this sensitivity comes in. And if we're going to have the conversation, I think we have to address that. Again, I'm not saying that that's you. It's just that that is the general thought of Jasmine can't be Jasmine to win, but a white person can. Yeah, I think, but it's not about, like, I think Jasmine, I think, by the way, Jasmine could, if it weren't Texas, if Jasmine were running in, I don't know, Delaware, I think she'd win. But you realize I'm not saying that's you who thinks that. I'm just telling you why, because we're having the conversation,

why there's a sensitivity, like where black women who are being critical are coming from. And I'm not saying it's fair to label you that because we have said on this podcast. We don't think that you're racist or a misogynist in any way. But that's the under, I'm going to try to have a conversation of the understanding. I understand. That makes sense to me. I mean, I actually, I guess I hadn't fully. thought about that. I hadn't fully thought about that. But when I like I don't really like the

word polarizing and maybe it was bad at me to bring up what this pollster said in Texas. But I do think it's just like the partisan quality of her brand that is that is that is challenging, challenging in Texas. But but I understand the word polarizing can be very sensitive. And I actually hadn't fully appreciated what it means for Jasmine. be fully herself and to get all this attention and how that could be negatively seen from a big part of the electorate. You've been very generous with your time. I'll say this.

And just so people know, did that, Marjorie Taylor Green is not running again in Texas because in Georgia. Because she's in Georgia. She's not running again in Georgia because she's polarizing. That's not why she's not running. She's not running again in Georgia has nothing to do with being polarizing. Being polarizing actually made her who she is. Being as polarizing and as far to the right and as uncompromising, that made her her career.

She lost her power base when she actually became less polarizing. Well, you're missing. She became less polarizing. And she started, I call her Marjorie Taylor King. She started going on centrist places like CNN and being critical of the president. she started actually moving away from the far right Maga Base, not on a whole litany of issues. But you know why she did that?

But she did that because she wasn't supported by the president in a race, and they had a beef. Yes. Covered this stuff all the time. But do you know why she wasn't supported by the president? I know. Why was she not supported by the president? Because she can't win.

She can't win in Georgia. Yeah. She couldn't win Senate race. No, a Senate race. Hold on. A Senate race she can't win. She can't run a Senate race in Georgia. And she might not be able to win a Senate race.

Senate race in Georgia because she's too cuckie, not because she's not because she's too poloize. No, because she might not be able to... It's the same like negative mobilization that that this pollster asserts that Jasmine Crockett might have. Like people will come out and vote against her.

But understand what we're talking about. If we're talking about, I'm not so sure she can't win, by the way, because Tommy Tuberville won. Like other people like that, I'm not so sure she can't win. Like Tommy Tupperville... That's Alabama. That's a little different. But see, look at all the stuff

that we're doing. George is purple. Like, look at all of stuff. She might not be able to be like Warnock or Asoff or one of those guys. But as far as to be a darling of her party, her extreme views were something that made her that, right?

And so, well, she wasn't a darling at first. She actually was actually like thrown, she was basically like ostracized from the party when she first came into power. She very slowly got accepted over time. She got accepted over time because the party moved towards Trump.

The party moved towards Trump. She moved further to the right to completely align herself and then hitched her wagon to his power all the way thought he would pay it back. He did not pay it back. And she's not running. She's not not running for Senate.

She's not running for her seat in Congress again, which she would surely win, right? Which she would surely win. So she's not not running because she's polarizing. She's not running because she no longer has the support of, the big dog in her party, the guy who you have to glaze.

Now, when we talk about polarizing for Jasmine Crockett, she was called a Shiniqua. Right? She's called ghetto. She's called low IQ. So the polarization around Jasmine Crockett is in identity. Yeah. It's not like Jasmine Crockett is not being called polarizing right now because Jasmine Crocklett believes that there are space lasers on the moon.

Right. She's not being called, she's not polarizing because she's an anti-vax person. She's not polarizing. She's not, she's polarizing because people don't like that version of black women speaking too loud. And if that could be, I'm not saying that that's not a political fact. I'm not saying that that's not a reality. But in argument with us, we're going to reject that. And if we don't read, even if we, even if it doesn't make sense to reject it politically,

we have to talk about why we need to reject it. And I think the most interesting thing from the conversation is that, there's an expectation, and once again, we've got to talk about it, there's an expectation that we won't be protectionist around the greatest resource that we have in our community, which are black ladies. We're going to be.

So if you want to have the conversation, I think we probably have to get out of our feelings a little bit to have the conversation, particularly when it's around politics. But I'm going to challenge you and Bowen and everybody else to you talked about your harrowing journey

as a white man I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you guys also to consider that this woman was called

a Shiniqua and she was called ghetto and she was called dumb and that we might be a little touchy around somebody being called that that looked like your mama just a little bit

so let's all bring the temperature down let's have the conversation, let's get there to, but let's not like run into any corners and wait for any bells to have any fights. I don't mind having this conversation. I think you're having it in good faith. I think you feel attacked. I think any human being in that situation would feel attacked. I think any human being that's saying, hey, I'm just talking about politics.

I do feel like, like Jasmine Crockett doesn't share my politics at all. I'm a fucking pinko communist. So she doesn't share my politics at all. but I mean if there is some talk about whether or not you can authentically and directly

defend yourself from what you feel like are attacks then we're going to have a conversation that to me is a little bit more murkier because it looks like we all lying just so that we could get famous or have conversations or compel you to come on the show sure which we've enjoyed

yeah that's and which I feel like you said you didn't realize that and I think that The big takeaway is when you talked about the sensitivity maybe that surrounds it. And I think the big takeaway is we should be able to be critical. It's not healthy for the party if we cannot be honest in our critiques. However, there is a sensitivity that exists. And I think the step to getting there is to acknowledging it, which I feel like we got there. And then we have a better understanding each other to hopefully move forward to get the right person in office and to turn Texas.

blue and everything else. I just want to like we like Democrats, I think this, I think this is like, I think this is a good conversation to have because this isn't going to be a new idea. I think this is not, this is, no, but this is like it's, this is our primary. Yeah, but this is this is going to be a prop like we have to be a like I personally believe fascism is here. I don't think it's like at the door. I think it's here. It's here. ICE is just taking people out of their homes. I don't even know if Donald Trump's going to leave power, you know? And so there has to be a sense of like coalition.

And I think the internet is set up in such a way with like the way the oligarchs have set up, where they want us to be as divisive and divided as possible. And so, you know, I do think that we have to, there has to be a sense of coalition. of all types of people, the most, most, you know, the reddest of the red if they're on our side for democracy. And then, you know, would you call yourself a communist? I'm a pinko-comun. Okay, a pink-o-com.

It changes. We need everyone. That's new. He had said that one before. That's new. Hey, hey, Keith, how's this sound? You want me to scare you? Yeah.

I'll scare you. Let's fucking make the tax rate 90% on anything over $3 million. Let's fucking do it. I don't give a fuck my needs. But so what I'm saying is all of these people to me You should try it. Yeah, run on that.

Yeah, well, run on it. I can tell you what, in the 50s when like the tax rate was like that, that was the tax rate. That's what things were compressed and things were doing better. That's when things were good. So I'll say this.

I think this is a good conversation. I, once again, the only thing I want to do is in coalition building, I think the most important thing, seriously, I'm very verbose. I know that you've probably been frustrated about that.

In coalition building, the most important thing to me is it's conversation. Yeah. I really appreciate you having this conversation. I really appreciate having the conversation with anyone. I do think we need to toughen up. But I'll say this. Last thing I'll say to you. I'll give you the last word.

When you talked about the reddest of the red a second ago, the reddest of the red person, do you know who the bluest of the blue person is? I'm going to assume black women is what you're going to say. Don't get no bluer. Yeah. Don't get no bluer. 92%? Don't get no bluer. I watched, I saw a poll.

And the poll was of all the different sports leagues. And how those sports leagues vote based upon voter registration, whether they're not there, we loot, the MLB, that's the proud boys. Right? Football, not commiserate with the amount of, you know what the bluest sports league, is can you guess I don't even know WNBA I don't know it's the WMBA now why would the WNBA be the blues because it's a bunch of sisters running around

shooting basketballs and occasionally kissing each other so look thank you Keith let's wrap him up thank you no seriously thank no I really do I hope this was helpful I don't know I hope it was helpful I I hope it was helpful. I think this is what we should be doing. And I hope you come back next time you're in L.A. Or we're a van's in New York now, like when we're in New York. But I think we need more of this.

It's the same thing that I was talking to Matt about. So I hope, you know, maybe we'll get him on here to talk too. But we need to do, people need to see this. Who is Matt? Rogers. Oh. Thank you, Keith. Thank you.

Tell everybody where they can find you. Tell everybody where they can find you. Not threads. Don't go on thread. Don't go on threads. Keith, oh, I have a, you know what? Before Keith goes, I'm very interested, just so everyone knows, I'm very interested in watching.

I almost want to check back in with you, Keith. I'm very interested in watching this debate next week. I was going to live stream it. I was going to live stream it. Keith, I would be interested in coming on a live stream. All right. I would be interested in coming on a live stream. Let's do that.

We can do a whole, Ebony, Ivory. We can be the change we want to see. We can do it. We could be the change that we want to see. He is not kidding. I like inciting people. I like standing on you. Yeah, let's do it.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Is it Saturday or Sunday? You know what I mean? It's Saturday. Okay. I was like, is it Saturday or Sunday? All right.

It's a Saturday. All right. Great. Keith, we really appreciate you. Thank you so much. All right, we're done. This is something else I wanted to mention before we left. Just real quick.

One last thing. One last thing. There's something else. I wanted to mention. A lot of Sigma's reached out to me. They're furious, but we'll ignore that. General consensus is that they either want you to stay as far away as possible from the D-9 or Sigma.

I'm into it. It's funny the way y'all treat the sigmas, man. No. You do that. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

Oh, let me tell you what this guy told me. It's a couple of Cygnus that actually told me this. I wonder what this the one of my homeboys that I knew that I know great guy it's actually a preacher now he reached out to me and he told me that you dissing the sigmas he took it as a dis okay that it and I actually forgot about this the way we got up the way we got on all of this stuff was that I would tease you about Kamala Harris being getting to the White House first. Being on the White House first. And then you would say, oh, there's no competition. It's all D9. We're all together.

And I would be like, I know that's not true. Yes. And then we started having more conversations. And I'll be like, oh, I know a little something about the culture of that whole thing. Not the individual organizations. And you would be like, no, we all root for each other. And he goes, he said to me, he says, it's interesting that she actually gave a validation to you saying it there's a hierarchy in those organizations.

I did say that. using the fact that you are a sigma, that I would be a sigma as a dis. That's how he took it. He took it that way. He said, because you used it, he also said, really, he said the sigmas are the cradle of the D9. Because they prop their sisters up.

They put their sisters in their constitution. They build community with black women. They are the cradle. He said the cradle. He was giving a sermon to me. And I was like, I was like, hey, I got to go. He was given a sermon to me. That's the problem.

The cradle of the D-9. That's the problem. So you said he's a pastor, Reverend Sigma. He's a pastor. He, the problem is, the problem, and this is why people get on the sigmas. It was not a diss. I said I dated a Sigma. I had a lot of women reach out to me who had similar experiences.

The problem is, it's like a hit dog holler situation. You always feel like y'all got to be on the defense. I didn't say it was a diss You always feel like you got to be defending yourself Omega's and capas and alphas aren't doing all of that This nigger's go be so bad Well You should have told the story

Oh my God They're always on the defense Like just be in it It's cool like when we used to have I can't remember what chapter they were from. Obviously, he was in Texas, and we would have our step shows. One of the best step shows would be from the sigmas.

I cannot remember what chapter they were from. They were incredible. They were winning all the time. Why y'all got to be hung up? Why do y'all do that to themselves? You make it easy. Yourself's an easy target. Stop.

Stop. There you have it. You have a better feeling about Keith? I do. I feel like we all have a better understanding of each other. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it is a good conversation.

And I'm into more conversations like this. I am not as an essentialist when it comes to race and politics. I am an essentialist when it comes to race in humanity. I think that I probably always be. When it comes to race and politics, you just simply cannot put your in a situation where you allow identity to be a handcuffing factor

with you to a politician. You can't do it. You'll always be disappointed. Well, that's very true. But also, politics is such a game at the margins that any commonality that you have with someone who seeks power, if you live in that commonality, they might just exploit.

even if they do it on accident. I'm not saying that they necessarily do it on purpose. Anytime you ask, sometimes you ask these politicians questions and they go, before they answer the substance of the question, they go, listen, I'm the son of a single mother. I'm the son of a single mother

that woke up every single day and worked 17 hours to provide for us in a diner, little diner, right outside Cleveland. and I watch this woman wake up every single day and provide for me. So when I vote against minimum wage, it's not because I don't respect people like her.

It's because I understand that we have fiscal responsibilities. I would never vote against someone like my mother. I've done it for 15 years, but it's not because I don't respect people like her. It's because I see the big picture. And the big picture, is what is exxon

supposed to do let's go take the cats off but do not stop learning I'm barely at Rachel

Lynn Lindsay Bye guys