Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Missing White Woman Syndrome and Eboni K. Williams on Her Dream Job

Episode Date: September 24, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss the disparities in media coverage for missing people of color amid the sad news of the Gabby Petito case (2:28). They then welcome lawyer, TV host, and Real Housewife of New York Eboni K. Williams to discuss breaking reality-TV barriers and what is next for the broadcaster (29:55). Plus, could James Bond be a woman (1:02:18), and is Drake bigger than Beyoncé (1:14:50)? Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Eboni K. Williams  Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Coming in live. Live from where? From Washington, D.C.

Ooh, our nation's capital. Our nation's capital. I just walked by the church where Trump did the thing with the Bible. With the Bible. And I was standing there trying to get people to, I was standing there with my hand like that people would just like walk by and laugh like I stood there with the people like they walk by and laugh oh before we get started do you have an apology to make to me I do not I just bring this up it turns out Rachel was wrong about the passport thing 100% she was 100% wrong

about the passport thing and this is a lesson for the thought warriors okay all I did was ask a question and my question was derided by Rachel Lindsay. No. I guess it was. Even you acknowledged that your first question was stupid, your words. But it's not stupid because it's actually a thing. But you thought that too. And you made that comment as well.

I know. But here's the thing. This reiterates. There's no such thing as a stupid question because guess what? Some of our intrepid thought warriors out there sent me evidence that you can, in fact, have pages sewn into your passport. Two different people hit me up and gave me two different examples of times that they've had pages sewn to their passport. So Rachel, you were so sure.

I was. Loud and wrong. And why was I sure? I have no clue. Why was I sure? Because what? I was basing it off of 2000. 2013 knowledge, which neither one of those people who sent you that can confirm that that was the case. Those were the rules in 2013.

And the last time I got a passport was 2013. So I was giving you, I was giving you information from my experience of getting a passport, which was. All I asked, all I asked was was, eight years ago. And you didn't say, I don't know. Maybe you can't. You were like, ha ha, you're stupid. I did not. I did not. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. All right, we are back. Missing White Woman Syndrome. Gabby Petino's body was found. Obviously, this was like a big deal. Everyone was talking about this.

This was a huge deal. Obviously, there was a lady that went missing. Her body was found. She is white. Now police and authorities are investigating her fiancé for her disappearance, which it's always like the fiancé or somebody close to the fiancé. Like always the fiancé or so it always is. It's always like the boyfriend or the husband.

husband or someone. It seems like that's that's always the first person of interest. Right. That's why you got to keep your woman safe. Keep your woman safe. Make sure she's safe. Because if something random happens, they're going to look at you anyway. You have to go the extra mile to keep her safe also because you love her. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like waiting for the rest of it. Like waiting for the shoot of fall. Like what are we going to keep? But Joy, Joy Reed, who's been in the news lately, had something to say about this, she referred to something called MWWS. That is missing white woman syndrome. Missing white woman syndrome.

What do you think about this? This is obviously missing white woman syndrome is the belief that, and we've seen this before, that when it's a white woman that goes missing or is the victim of foul play, that America holds his breath like she is a baby that fell down a well. but black, indigenous, gay, trans people go missing all the time. And America doesn't bat an eye. Do you think that there's any truth to missing white women syndrome? Of course it's true.

And it doesn't take you long to do a Google search to realize that what Joy Reed is talking about, one has been discussed before. She didn't create the term. It was recreated by a black woman journalist, Eiffel, and I cannot remember that what's her last first name. I'm just totally forgetting it right now. Erasing her. Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, Gwen, thank you. Did you know?

No, I had no good. Why you over here checking me? I'm right. But it's something that has been discussed before. It's not new. And I think it's very important that Joy brought it up. Because I think it's important for people to realize that you can discuss both. and it doesn't discredit what happened to Gabby.

It's just pointing out that there's an issue. It's like when people say black lives matter and people get all up in arms and it's like they're not saying that your life doesn't matter or only black lives matter. It means that black lives matter too. And the point of joy bringing up that missing white woman syndrome is a thing

is because she's saying that the reason this is a syndrome is because there are other lives that don't even become discussed. who don't matter when it comes to them missing. And listen, Gabby's life mattered, getting justice for Gabby matters, but it also matters to highlight and get justice for all the other people of color that are missing, not just people of color, like you pointed out,

because the media doesn't give them the same attention, and they seem to be fascinated when it comes to a white woman and what's going on with her rather than all these other people that are missing. And the problem, too, is that unless you know someone directly impacted because they know somebody who's missing or it's their relative, their friend, then it's almost as if you don't realize that there's this problem out here because it's out of sight, out of mind, because it's not being brought to our attention. And so that's why I applaud joy for talking about this because it is something that is an issue.

Because often when people of color or of these underrepresented communities are reported missing, police label them as runaways or maybe suggest that they're involved in some type of criminal activity, and they don't, these cases fall through the cracks. And already police don't, I feel like don't put that much attention towards missing people. The units are small when it comes to searching for them. And then if all the fascination or all the attention is put on white women, then you can imagine all the other underrepresented communities that are going to fall through the cracks. So I think this is a real thing.

I think it's something that needs to continue to be discussed. And I think that we shouldn't be afraid to discuss it just because some people, get upset by it. You just have to separate the two that it doesn't mean you're not honoring or recognizing what happened to Gabby. It just means there's a lot of other cases that need to be recognized as well. So that's my issue with what Joanne Reed said. I don't have an issue with the discussion of missing white women syndrome. It's not something I even knew was actually termed. but it's certainly something that obviously has an incredible amount of validity to it

and it's another one of those things that you know it without knowing it. I mean, you can just tell it. We talk about it all the time. Where are our girls? I get messages all the time from people saying, hey, Van, this person is missing. Can you retweet this or put this up to we're trying to find it?

I will say this, though, for me personally, if I'm being real, did think it was in poor taste and I'll tell you why. And I didn't see what Joanne Reed was, I didn't see the actual broadcast. When she did this broadcast, when she talked about this, did she attach this to a specific instance of a specific person that we need to find that was black? I don't believe so. Meaning did she say, did she say here's so and so and so they've been missing for a very

long time and we need to find them. Let me tell you why that makes a difference to me. It makes a difference to me because Gabby Petito's family is actually grieving. Like they actually like she's dead forever. And I just get weird about this kind of stuff like she's dead. She's gone in the most tragic and weird way. Right. And there is a bigger issue to discuss. But I always personally feel and I've talked about this in the past that when people are in mourning or are remembering something and for whatever it is that as a human being it's important to give that oxygen now and so what I'm saying is to me I feel like we're getting into a weird place if are are we being inundated with the Gabby Petitos and not other people

sure of course we are of course we are like I can attach to the actual human tragedy surrounding it. And I'm like, all right, well, everybody's upset about it for whatever reason that they're upset about it. If I'm going to have this conversation, I think it's a more a constructive way to have the conversation and to give the, use the platform to give the example of a black person who is missing, of a black person, somebody who we can actually save or a family who can help bring closure to, and then have a discussion about why we haven't heard about that. Because to go in on it and bring up the white woman syndrome while everybody is talking about Gabby Petito, it feels like content.

And for me, just to be real with you, for me, it's distasteful because whether or not they're aligned with a million years or thousands of years or hundreds of years, it would be hundreds of years, hundreds of years of white supremacy. And we all know that that colors everything that we talk about. There's still people who are genuinely hurt that this person, a seemingly innocent person. I don't know what she was doing in her life. It's dead.

And when somebody is actually dead, when there's a body, it's always weird for me as a human being to be like, hey, but just to let you know when this happens to us, it's not the same thing. It's not saying that it's not something that needs, that not saying that it's not

something that happens or that you shouldn't say it, of course. And by the way, sometimes you have to do things that aren't in perfect taste to get your message out. But I always kind of think, all right, just give it a beat for the actual dead person. And like just it's a sad story in it of itself. Like it's a sad story. So just give it a beat before we talk about the politics of it.

And then we can go into it deeper a little bit when it doesn't hurt people. Now, every time I say that, always I had a conversation with a friend of mine, a great guy, an amazing guy, an amazing author. George George Johnson on Twitter. George Johnson. Amazingly fierce, unapologetic, black gay man. I think I've talked about this on the podcast before. When Nip passed away, Nip dies. And then George talks about or writes about some homophobic things that Nip had said

like while he was alive. And Nip and D. Ray had a back and forth. And, you know, George was talking about it. And I remember I called him. I was like, I was just. so hurt when Nipsey passed away. New the guy. L.A. he was a big, huge thing. I just

called George. I'm like, yo, man, can you give, like, it's just a lot of people are hurting. Can you give us a little second to catch our breath before we talk about the shitty times that Nipsey's had in his past? He's like, no. He's like, no. He's like, while we give you guys time to catch your breath,

we're dying. Can't do nothing but respected. Can't do nothing but respected. But at the same time, if it's me, just on a human level. Maybe I hit the pause button real quick. Let people get their tears out before I start reminding them who else they need to cry about. So I think what you're saying makes sense.

I look at what Joy was doing in a completely different way. I understand what you're saying about the grieving. But I think that first thing I said when I start talking about this, I think you can discuss both without discrediting what happened to Gabby, without being disrespectful to her family. because there's never a good time to talk about missing white women's women's syndrome without attaching it to the missing white woman to the person who is getting the attention and then talking about those who don't.

If Joy were to just do a random segment of talking and bringing up Natalie Holloway or someone else that we're familiar with another case that got a random, another case that got a lot of attention and then talking about all the cases that don't and the people who are underrepresented that don't get attention, it's still, it's still going to be, you're talking not, you're talking about Natalie and her family is never going to get over what happened. You know what I mean? Like the grief is still always going to be there. They lost someone. It's not fresh. It's not, it's not, it's not fresh though. But I feel like the reason that she's doing it now is because she's attaching it to a story that's in the

news right now. I don't think she's taking away from Gabby at all, acknowledging what happened. But she's also saying, that's why I gave the Black Lives Matter example, because it's not saying your life doesn't matter. It's just saying our lives matter too. So while I have your attention, because I'll tell you exactly what I did, when I saw what Joy did, then I googled it. And then I saw that CNN has a whole story of different cases of missing people. I saw indigenous, this is now has an excellent video right now on their social media of a journalist talking. She's an indigenous woman who's talking, a journalist talking about all the women that have, the number of women that are indigenous that have been missing and that there's no media attention brought to it.

So I went down this dark hole seeing all these people and it brought awareness to it. And the only reason I started doing it is because I started looking up what Joy Reid was talking about. And so I just feel like because we all have our attention around this case right now, She's using this as an opportunity to gather your attention to an additional issue as well. And I think you can do both without, because I'm still thinking about Gabby and I'm still thinking about her family. And I'm thinking about how hard it must be as new information continues to come out. Everyone has an opinion. And the media is continuing to go around and round and around with the story and it's constant.

It's on play 24-7. I'm thinking about them. I'm also thinking about the people who've never gotten that, whose kids have been missing for years. years and it seems like the local authorities don't care. So I just feel like you can do both, but I understand what you're saying. So if it were my sister, I would feel minimized. I would. If it were my sister, I would feel minimized.

I would feel minimized and I would feel like maybe I wasn't given the space to get my arms around it. You could turn it to another station and you would because everybody's covering. Joy is the only person talking about that. No, I get it. Well, you know, so I guess what we'll do right now is we'll give you actually once again. Because I think especially in situations like this, it's less about actual concepts and more about actual people. So there are actual people out there.

Daniel Robinson 24 was last seen leaving a job site in Buckye, Arizona on June 23rd was reported missing later on that day. who's driving a 2017 blue-grade Jeep Renegade. You have Jolani Day and Daniel Robinson, who are, Daniel Robinson is a guy who I just talked about. Jeline Day, it's a 25-year-old Illinois State University graduate student. I actually had somebody reach out to me about this one. It was reported missing by his family and a faculty member August 25th, and that's according to the Bloomington Police Department.

So there are a lot of people out there, and what we'll try to do is make sure that we maintain the energy and actually change that because the laws of the land and the focus and the energy that is devoted to one person's story should be devoted to all of our stories. A life is a life.

And I just ask for everyone to have compassion about people who pass away and die and stuff. All right. Nikki Minaj, did you see this? Nikki Minaj's Yeah. Nikki Minaj's husband's accuser was on El the Real. Is it El Real in Spanish?

Would it be El Real? Because it's the real? Sure. Could I get away with calling it L. Real? Well, is real. I mean, real is an English word. What is real in Spanish? What is real?

Why, you should know this. I know. I know. I know. You like, you like, you are the way. that should know the answer to this question. Let's see. So it's

Veradera? So it could be masculine or feminine. So what's that with the show in Spanish? It's either L or law. Is the show feminine or masculine? I would say the show is feminine. So it's law. Law real.

So it's a lot real? I guess so. That's what we're going with. So in English or in Spanish, Nicky Minaj's husband ain't shit Kenneth Petty I just heard of it I got to be real shit

That nigga ain't shit man Kenneth Petty is his name A woman named Jennifer Huff said On during her appearance with the real She was on there with her lawyer Tyrants a blackburn She wanted to speak up She wants to speak to the public

Because she's tired of being afraid So in case you guys didn't know this about Kenneth Petty who is Nick Minaj's husband. Back in the day, he was not accused. I said that earlier, and that is not fair because she is not an accuser, and this is not to detract from accusers.

She is a victim. Depending he went to jail for this. All right. So back in the day, he was convicted for attempted first-degree rape. Now, I don't know legally what, so at first it was a rape charge that he had caught, but I guess then he pled down to attempted first degree rape. Can you help me understand it at all?

Like, it's just like an attempted murder. Like you tried to do something. So it was a lesser included, occluded charge. I guess so. Did he plead? Did they go to trial? That's what I don't know.

He was convicted. I know that. He was convicted. He was convicted. So here it is. Take a plea deal. Oh, no, no, no.

Shoot. I think he says he was convicted in April 1995 for the 1994 for the 1994 assault or Jennifer Huff. He was convicted of attempted first degree. rape. And I want to say that he maybe had just a rape charge at first, but he pled down to that. Any case, he went to jail. He was gone for a while. And now what she is saying is that in the wake of this, in order to clean that up to take heat off of Nikki Minaj, obviously people know that Nikki Minaj is married to somebody who is a convicted sex offender. And to take heat off of

Nikki Minaj, they have been pressuring her to do different things. I read an account that said that she was, she's saying that she was being pressured to recant the entire story. And this is why they were doing that. She says on the real, actually, you know what? Let's play a little sound of her on the real. Yeah. I feel like the actions that were taken in regards to this whole situation have put me in a different type of fear at my age now.

and it was wrong. And I don't want to be afraid anymore. So the only way not to be afraid is to continue to speak up. Okay, she goes on to describe the incident with Kenneth Petty saying, I knew what he wanted. He pushed me down on the bed. We wrestled for my clothes. She says he then stood up in a nearby mirror and said,

I'm the man. I'm the man. Your thoughts. Nikki is wrong here. Okay. Oh, you think? Nikki's wrong here. Nikki, I don't know what Nikki's doing.

It happened and he was convicted. And I don't understand why she's trying to minimize or justify what happened. There was no need for Nikki to speak on this situation publicly because what she's doing with her comment, she is in essence calling this victim a liar. Oh, so what did Nikki say? I miss what Nikki said. She responded to this interview or did she say something prior? She said something prior. She said that it was, they were in a relationship.

Nikki said, when Petty's conviction was publicized on social media years later, Minaj claimed that the woman, the victim and Petty were in a relationship and that Petty was 15 at the time. So Nikki is saying, telling a different story than what this victim is telling. So she is in essence calling her a liar because she's saying that they had, they were in a relationship. as if it was consensual and it wasn't a rape. So she's minimizing what this victim went through. And my thing is like, Nikki, you married this man. You married him and all that comes with that

and that includes his past sexual assault conviction. Marrying him doesn't give you the reason to try to recreate the past. Nikki wasn't there. She doesn't know what happened. So to emphatically speak on a situation she was not present for, I feel like he is uncalled for, it's disrespectful, and it's completely inappropriate to this victim. I mean, I get the whole stand by your man,

but in this situation, this is not what she needs to be doing. And I just... Sure. You can just leave it right there. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Thank you very much.

That scared me. A lot of people... Is your door open? No, like, they come in. A lot of people have gifts for me. They come, they're like, you remember? Like some people... Yeah, a lot of people come into the hotel.

Look, I got, they gave me some peanuts and some chocolate. They wrote me a letter and it says, hey, Mr. Lathen, we are thrilled to have you stay with us on your first trip back to D.C. In quite some time. I'll even know how they knew that. I'll even know how they fucking knew that. How did they know that? And it's true. Yeah, like, see, it went from accepting nice gifts to like, why are they all up in your business like that?

My shit is, is we hope that you have a wonderful stay. And please don't hesitate to reach out if you need anything. Boom. And they left some frankincense and myrrh. I love a biblical reference. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I interrupt you. Go ahead. You were saying? No, no, no. I was just going to say, I really hate that this woman had to come on national TV and defend herself and her reputation all over again. I cannot even imagine what she went through back then. It was traumatizing for her to go through it, then have to go through the whole him getting convicted, whatever the procedure was. I don't know if there was a plea deal. I don't know if there was a trial.

She had to relive it then. She had to tell her story to the police. You know what I'm saying? And then now she's got it years later, she's got to do it all again, but on a public platform because Nikki is in essence calling her a liar. And I just feel like Nikki didn't consider this woman at all in her statement. And she was only selfishly focusing on her man and their reputation as a couple. Yeah, Nikki's- Shame on her. Nicky's feeling the heat. And so in the fact that Nikki's feeling the heat, it seems as if they're going through, they're going through great lengths. to clear her name or to clear his name to her fan her fan base, which is, you know, incredibly

those ladies. She has a female lady fan base. And I'm sure for people who are not barbs and who are on the outside of it, it's difficult to reconcile the fact that Nikki Minaj is married to someone who has this in his history. So this is what I'll say. There's only one way to make this worse. If you marry a guy and the guy has a sexual assault conviction in his past that everyone knows about this very public and you are a public figure, maybe you have, maybe you, obviously she loves him. Maybe she feels that he is changed or that he is bigger than what he was.

I don't know. I don't know. I can't speak. They've known each other for a long time. Maybe she feels like she knows something. I don't know. I have no clue. But Nikki Minaj, like you said, marrying him is one thing.

The only way to make it worse is to re-victimize the victim, to abuse her again. To make her relive emotionally the trauma of having what she was and who she was put in danger for something that somebody wants to get from her. In the case with Kenneth Petty back in the day it was her body. And now it's her silence or maybe not her silence, her statement that it never happened. So essentially they're assaulting her again if what she says is true. So if he would have chosen atonement here, and maybe that's something that you can never atone for. And I get an understand that I'm sure that it is. But if they would have chosen in any way to, if they're going to speak about it at all,

speak about the hard work that you have to do or what you have to do or how are you going to make the world safe for victims before, like lean into it. That's one thing. But if they're using these type of bullyball tactics against her, I can't think of a worse way to handle this. And I'm interested to see what Nikki Minaj will say in the aftermath of this. And I'm interested to see if people can keep the energy of actually making this a thing. If this is going to be a thing, I just want to know how long for is this going to be a thing for the weekend? Is it going to be a thing for a week? It's going to be a thing for two weeks.

I would bet money right now that Nikki doesn't say anything about it. I was going to say, I don't think she's going to say a thing. And I love what you said about people keeping the same energy because the same way people want to get on to us for talking about like a Chris Brown for doing something problematic or whoever else it is. And rightfully so. They've done problematic things.

So is Nikki at this point too. So as Nikki. So let's not let her off the hook either. Is that a get him, Rach? That might be a get him rage. Well, I just, it's so, I hate this woman. I have to come on. That's a get him.

I just hate him. I just hate this woman had to come. I cannot believe she had to come on TV and defend herself. Felt bad for her. Totally believable. Totally believable. I felt bad for it. No, no, no.

When I say believable, I don't mean about the old allegations. Because remember, she made a bunch of new allegations. She said that Nikki Minaj, just so people know before we go. Oh, about the recanting. Yeah, this woman is saying that Nikki Mina, that they gave her $20,000 to try to buy her silence or buy a different version of her story. then when that was rebuffed, that she was told the $20,000 was going to go on her head. So we're not talking about like some doxing on the internet or any of those other things that celebrities do when they get mad at you. We're talking about she says that she is in fear for her safety and that she is under attack from Nikki Minaj's camp.

And of course, she's not going to be under attack from the fan base as well. So if that is 20,000. 20,000. That's it? That's all they tried to give her? that too. Are you kidding me? But you know, I'll be honest with you. The disrespect continued. I'm going to be real with you. But Rach, but Rach, though, I thought about that, but then I thought about something else. What? We're kind of talking about that from a certain lens.

You know, I know guys in Baton Rouge that'll kill you $4,000. You know what I mean? I'm in the fact that's not the killing part. Right. No, no, I'm just saying, Not to dismiss that. I'm just saying, I can't believe that that's the amount that she offered her. I know, but what I'm saying is, you know, what I'm saying is to a lot of people, that's a whole shit ton of money is what I'm saying. So like, you know people that would kill for $1,000?

Oh my God. I do. I do. I'm not going to lie. Like, I know people, I know people that have told me, whatever. I know people that kill you. Like, hey, bro. Hey, bro. Yeah, let's take a break.

Let's take a break. Let's take a break. Let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by. by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into

the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right. Up next, fantastic interview. Fantastic. You love her. We love her. She is the first black lady on the Real Housewives of New York. She also is a contributor for Fox News. She also is the host of Black News tonight on Revolt. Maybe a future co-host of The View. Maybe. Maybe. We are going to be joined by Ebony K. Williams.

Will we come back. One second. We have an amazing guest on Higher Learning today. She really is a Jill of all trades. When I tell you this sister is diverse, multifaceted, she can go from Fox News to revolt to the real housewives all in one day. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't think there's anybody else that can give you those three. I don't think anyone can give you Fox then to revolt.

then to the real housewise. I'm talking about Mn D.K. Williams. I am so happy to have you on this show today. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Rachel. I'm a big fan of the show. I remember when y'all first launched, you guys had an interview.

I won't say who it was, but let's just say between the interview and the questions y'all were able to extract from the guest, y'all were in my head. So I'm really excited to be here today. Yeah. and just chat it up.

Let's get into it. So let's talk about the real housewives first. So many questions. I have a lot of questions. I'm a super fan. So I have so many questions. You know, when you first got on the real housewives, I thought people was capping.

I thought they were like, like when they said Emily, Amy K. Williams is going to be on the wheel of housewives. I was like, no, she wouldn't. In my mind, you know what I said? I said she would never do that. Yeah. Yeah. So everybody said that, man.

And I said, do you know Ebony K. Williams? I was like, she's going to be on the wrongsides of New York. I was super excited. Oh, I love that, Rachel. Can I just say before we get into Roney as I'm just obsessed with blackness and I'm obsessed with black women and I'm obsessed with representation. So obviously your historic run as the first black bachelorette. I mean, no, I'm very serious.

I believe in giving people their flowers why they can smell and see them. You know, I never missed a moment. And what I loved Rachel that we have in common is, you know, and I say this humbly, you know, there's so many representations of black women that are kind of limited into how they allow us to be in our black womanhood. So you coming into the space, yes, as a bachelorette, looking for love, but also having your legal background, being an attorney, coming from a family of distinguished professionals in the black community. That was just dope as fuck to me. I just want to say that.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. And you guys have, when I think about it, you guys have a lot in common when you're, when you're looking at that, it's like it's you were the first black woman on the real housewives of New York, right? Yeah. Rachel was the first black woman on the bachelor.

Yeah. What was it like being the first? Well, I'll speak to my experience because it was unique from Rachel's in that I've been an ensemble cast, right? So I've been an ensemble cast of all white women who are also veterans of their franchise with the exception of Liam McSweeney. So I would say, and we kind of saw this play out last night's episode of Girl Housewives of Beverly Hills with Garcel Bouvet, the great Haitian queen. and I was just texting with her before our conversation, this notion of a black woman being expected to fit into a white normative space. And that has challenges that are obvious and some of the not so obvious,

including the fact that as talent on these shows, which I know Rachel will speak to in a moment, we are more empowered than most on set. and as such I know I felt I've heard you speak about this in interview Rachel I know you'll get to it in a second there is also a noble responsibility that we have as the visible black face

to make sure that everything around us is copacetic as we say where I'm from you know what I mean but go ahead so those were some of my challenges go ahead no no no I wasn't asking her I wasn't asking he wasn't asking me but you're right about I was asking I was asking I was asked well I want to know what she thinks but no you're right I mean I just I echo your sentiments and as I watched you on the real house,

as what you were, honestly, I could not have done what you did and with and like keeping your composure in the way that you did, which is also the struggle that we have is that we have to make everybody feel comfortable around us. And I can only imagine what it is that you were going through in certain situations, which we'll get to. But you and I, we spoke through email because there was a situation that you had. and when I was on The View, which is another thing I want to talk to you about, we discussed that about someone called,

Fah, I know you don't watch for Housewives, but one of the Housewives called her angry. She said angry, right? She said angry or aggressive or something like that. She said angry. Okay, let me not put words in her mouth. She said angry. And I talked about my own experience,

and sadly, both of us being the first, had to deal with being that we can walk straight, line and do everything right, but somehow, because you got to get placed into one of these stereotypes, we get placed into angry because we're strong and we assert ourselves a certain way and we're independent and we speak well and all of that. Yeah. So don't forget, Rachel, and just the next scene over, I was also called our ticket. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we never saw her again. We never saw her again on the show. Did they do clean. in articulate or they just hit you with articulate.

Artics are so articulate. They didn't pull the full on, who was that done? That was Joe Biden. Well, Joe Biden, yes, I was going to say Joe Biden and also the one from Vegas. But yeah, but anyways, yeah, it was, it was the full statement, y'all was, has anyone ever told you, you are so articulate? And it's like, child, you know, I went through all of law school, had a national broadcasting career and published a book, and I never heard it.

It's amazing. And this is coming off the hills of that. woman bragging about how kind of like how down she is because she worked with Diddy and all of this stuff and then turns right around and calls her articulate. Go ahead. I want to ask a straight of a question. Real housewives. Are there racists on that show? Yes.

I have to be honest in the sense of are there real housewives on my cast that whole anti-black sentiment? Yes. The answer is yes. Yes. More than one? More than one? I don't think more than one, actually. I think the other is, her issues are more convoluted.

I think she has issues with women in general. So I would say it's not isolated to the anti-Black sentiment in the way at least one castmate has displayed themselves. So I'm not even going to ask the obvious follow-up question, which is which one of the castmates with this. We know. I know, I know. But what I'm going to, what I'm going to ask is, how did it present itself to you that you can make that statement so declaratively? Like, what was shown to you so that you can say that? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm glad you asked that. And Rachel will really be able to kind of echo my analysis as an attorney. So I really did come into the experience with a full plain slate. Although I'm an admitted Rony, day one fan, I know enough about the business. to know what you see is not always a direct parallel to who people are. So I control, alt-deleted, all that I thought, all the other stuff I suspected, and I truly went into this experience with an open-minded heart. And I basically, and I do this to everybody, Black, White or Other, started my dossier,

day one, but filming, you know, and when I start the file on you, and, you know, then you've been had a file, just so you know. All right, and I'm with it. You win it. You're with the sheds. So, you know, that's how I roll in life. Everybody gets, and I start collecting evidence. I let you tell me who I am, y'all.

I don't make assumptions. I don't speculate. I don't jump to conclusions prematurely. I let it breathe. And I knew because we were going to be filming this show for, gosh, it ended up being four months of real time, because of COVID delays, I would have ample opportunity to put information in the file that would allow me to one day answer the question so directly, succinctly, and just without hesitation,

as I was able to do, because I've seen enough. I've seen enough in front of the camera. I've seen enough when the cameras go down. I've seen enough of what happened when we were filming. I've seen enough as to what's happened since the shows have been airing to be able to able to reach conclusions of who does and does not hold anti-Black sentiment. You know what I was just thinking? I was thinking, I was thinking I'm blessed to be surrounded in my life with such amazing, strong black women. It's just fun watching y'all do this right now. This is what dossier and all of that.

I love the fact that you're not taking no shit. Rachel don't take no shit. It's good. Fuck them. I have a question. And this might be unfair, but I'm not asking anyway. I was just wondering. I've worked in all white spaces before.

I think people know. Yes. I've kind of only worked in all white spaces. Anyway. I've worked with Dedi. Got my own production company. We all black, whatever. But so question is, was,

Was it easier to be black at Fox News or was it easier to be black on the real housewives? I personally found it easier to be black at Fox News. I'm going to tell you why. Because it's got a caveat. No, no, no, no. It's got a caveat. Okay. It's not because the conditions were better.

I want to be clear about that. It's not because the conditions at Fox News were better or more favorite. they were not but there was a better understanding of where their values were like box news is a 20 plus year old organization no one's unclear as to the value system of Sean Hannity no one's unclear around the value and I don't mean that in the gotcha no I understand we just we just know what we know where sanity stands right right Hey, that's it. We know what it is.

We know, we know how O'Reilly and him. And I did O'Reilly show weekly. Let me be clear, you know, disgusting moral behavior. But the man was an advocate for me, professional. That was why I was hired by the network. But I knew where Bill was on the issues. So when I would go into the studio every day, y'all, and I would be going back and forth with him about deferred prosecution

or Loretta Lynch on the tarmac talking to, I know where the pieces of the puzzle are on the text. table. So I know how to navigate it accordingly. What was difficult about Real Housewives of New York, many of my castmates were hostile towards showing their hand. There was hostility around being clear on their positioning of certain value issues. And I want to be clear, y'all, I'm not talking about politics. I'm not talking about Ramona or Luann or Leah or Sonia. I need to know where you are on the tax code. Bitch, I don't give a fuck. when you are on the tax code.

I don't care what you think about. I don't care what you think of the Iran nuclear deal. I don't care about those. No, man, you're laughing. But I'm saying, that's politics. That's politics, right? Right, right, right. I need to know where you are on the liberation of people that look like me.

I need to know where you are on that issue. So now I know how to navigate our friendships. That's all. Well, the problem, too, is the, another person of color on your cast. You had, you didn't know where she stood either. I'll say her name, Rashon. You didn't know where, where her allegiance was.

I was quite confused. I'm not even quite sure if she was a housewife or not. She was not. Here's my. And that's just, and that only matters in this way, Rachel, in the sense that I actually had far less time with Bershant. So there was, like I was talking, you know, kind of jokingly, but very literally about the time I took to inform my father.

system. I had such limited time with Roshan because she was not a full-time housewife. That made it even more difficult to understand her position. Does that make sense? Now, would you guys describe her because I didn't see the show? Would you guys describe her as one of the real house niggas of New York? Oh, he could wait to say something like that. He couldn't wait to say something. I'm sorry.

That is the second time you did that in this episode. Look, I couldn't. Actually, we could take that. that out. But like, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. No, sir. We love dogs around here.

Just a joke. Let me ask you this, Ebony. You're messing in a house. Do you feel support from the show? Do you feel like you were supported during your season? I, yes. The direct answer is yes. Now, did every single person in every single moment be?

No, but that's not reasonable, right? I think when the show, hit the fan. And when I asked things of my production company, my network, and also like my own personal support system, because I want to really talk about how

important that is. Like when you, and I can only imagine the conversations you were having, Rachel, with your friends, family, colleagues while you were filming and while it aired, that support is important too. So when I asked for space, I got space. When I needed listening

ear, I got that. When I went to the network and production company and said, I need an opportunity to speak to the angry black woman trope and I need to do it in a way that's highly credible. I got support by way of that USA Today piece. I got support with them helping me place that in a highly visible, highly credible space. So I think those things are important. And I think that when those calls were made, they were answered accordingly. Also, I'm glad you had a support system because, you know, I was stripped from everything when I was filming.

So my only system was a sea of people who did not look like me. Every producer, every executive that I was dealing with was white. So I'm so glad you had support. Like, y'all can at least keep your phones and your friends and your family and all of that, which is great. I think about that, Rachel. Yeah, you were. Oh my God.

That's so so. So I was explaining to them what it was to be black while trying to navigate the show, trying to find love and saying like, oh, this is this, which, yeah. And you had to live on unseasoned chicken the whole time because there wasn't no black people around. That's not true. They have no chicken. They didn't know what to do. That's not.

So my question for you is, I'm going to move off Housewives for a second. I was picking at you a little bit earlier or just not picking at you but remarking about how well-versed you are and how you're able to comport yourself in all these different media spaces. You've hosted Black News Tonight on Vote. You've been on Fox News, Real Housewives. What do you see as your place in the culture and the industry as? And where do you see the evolution of it? Like what is Ebony's dream situation? Like what do you feel like your voice is used best?

You've used it so many different places. I really like that first question, Vane. I don't know that anyone's ever asked me so directly. What do I see my place, really, in this culture? I know, actually, I had a spiritual awakening during COVID. And I called my best friend, one of my best friends, Christina Jackson Scott. And I said it was like, I don't know, 1.30 in the morning.

And I said, bitch, they keep answering the phone. And then I said, and then I said, it's really nuts because in this moment, I know why I was born. Wow. And she's, right. She said, do tell. I was born and my life's work is centered around showing that black women, particularly black women, belong in every space. So that is why. And we belong there on our.

terms. So we belong there. And now I want to be vulnerable and say that I didn't always know how to show up on my own term because I hadn't had the maturity and the full evolution of confidence. And really, I wasn't fully emancipated, right, to be as free as you see me moving on real housewise of New York while I was at Fox News. Now, I got a lot freer towards the end of my tenure at Fox. That's why you started really seeing the indictment of Trump. around Charlottesville and talking very boldly about the depreciating value of whiteness in American society and the fear that that is causing around white supremacy. That's why you heard me call Sheriff Clark's punk ass out when he tried to pretend like he

didn't know who John Lewis was. That's who you heard me ask Brian Kemp while he was stealing an election actively. What the fuck is going on with the voter suppression in your state, Mr. Secretary of State? But that level of emancipation freedom and a human. intention of taking up full space of the black woman came at the end. So, yeah, that's why I do what I do in the way I do it. Where will I go next, y'all? I really don't know.

It's really, truly, of God's will. But I know all I want to do, y'all, is make sure that I show it doesn't have to look one way. It doesn't, I don't, you know, it doesn't have to be the respectability politics that we think of the perfect black woman aesthetically or vocally. That's why I speak the way I speak. A lot of people give me a lot of shit. I've got a bit of a potty mouth, right?

It's like, oh, why would such an educated, um, intelligent young woman use, uh, so many four-letter words? Because I fucking can because I earn the right. Hey, hey! Because I get to say it how I want to say it because those are my terms. And I won't be shamed, um, into your respectability, politic formula to present a certain way because that's what makes you comfortable, which is really what Rachel was speaking to earlier.

I just heard my father's voice when you said that. No, I feel you on what you say, but you know how the judge, we had him on this show, how he sees, he'll be like, you need to stop saying that. You need to stop cursing so much. She tells me that, tells Van that is all another thing. But I felt that. I felt that. I felt you in that moment. But you want to talk about what's next, the view.

I know everybody's asking you about that. Now, there's an open seat. They're circulating guest hosts. Would you go on? How do we make this happen? because I really think that you would be great. Well, I love you for saying that, Rachel. And obviously, you know, when I see women like yourself

who have also occupied a seat at that historic table, it's encouraging. It's encouraging to see, thank God, we're finally in 2021, right, getting a little bit out of that tokenism enslaved mentality that says there can only be the designated one or two women of color at the same table. You know, thank God, we're, you know, people are seeing that there is room enough for,

a scenario where there's me and the brilliant Sunny Hospital at the table and the legendary Wolfie Goldberg at the table. Now, let's talk about the open seat. You know, it was occupied by my former colleague from Fox News, Megan McCain. Megan McCain is the very obvious and visible darling of the Republican establishment and came on with a very strong, really continued the legacy, right, of Elizabeth Heselbeck's very strong conservative point of view. I'm not a partisan. bitch. That's just not who I am. You know, for better or for worse, I'm just not really in love with the

partisanship of the work. So therefore, somebody was asking me the other day, Rachel, like, when you go on for your guest stint, will it be to, in the voice of the Megan McCain-G-O-P lens? I said, no, ma'am, and that's not any shade towards Megan. I'm only going on,

any platform I occupy in the voice and lens of Ebony K. Williams, period. And that's a take-it-or-lead of proposition. So I make the mistake about it. I'm not, you know, going to play it for me. The view is a dream job for me. I have, you know, been enthralled with what that platform means, what it means for our people, since our sister in the law, Star Jones, debuted on the show 25 years ago. Shut up, yeah.

I mean, it always meant something very special to me, y'all. particularly because Starr, she's my sorority sister, Ski Up to U.S. Fellow Sister, Greek Rachel, to see her in her regalness, her education, her aesthetic as a fuller-figured black woman. It all just popped.

So I would love the job, but I will never contort my point of view and my intellectual integrity for any job. Yeah, I read that if they hire you on the view and it was three black women that they were going to change the name of it to dove you, DA. I read that they were,

because I saw this article and it was like, it was like it was going to be W. Yeah. Yeah. So last question I'll ask you is, last question I'll ask you is during the pandemic,

you talked about the fact that your relationship came to an end. your relationship came to an end and you said it was because you couldn't bear that your fiance had the fucking nerve to choose his children over you that's what you

You got it right Ebony Ebony How in the world Could you be mad That during a global pandemic Somebody chose they kids kids over their fiance

like do you actually want an answer to the question? I do. I want to hear it. Absolutely. Giggling and kicking and shi and shit

for you can get. Jesus. Yes. Yes. Please. All right. The answer is this. First of all,

Brother Van, I was not mad. So you got me fucked up already. I was never mad. I want to be very clear. I was never mad. It's not about being mad.

What it's about is being a woman enough to have agency over what serves my needs and interest. I think it's very important that all adults in relationships get really clear on that. So you can make decisions accordingly. So what was clear to me during the pandemic, I felt no way that the man wanted to spend time with his children during the pandemic. Of course that made sense. but I had to acknowledge the gap between us when I was sick during the pandemic. And it's not about me being sick, but I happened to at some point get COVID and really need some help. You know, there was eight weeks where I was no smell, no taste.

Yeah, really, I actually have some long hauler syndrome of neck and back. My point is, is I was out sick and shut in. And I was in need. And in that moment of need, he. he was unavailable. I was by myself. So let me not make it about him. It's not about him.

It's about I realize in that moment, I was alone. If I'm going to be alone and I'm not going to have someone who does love me be able to protect and care for me, that's not a marriage that I can sign up for.

That makes perfect sense. Hell yeah. Right. So it's not about being mad at him for his choice. This man had children when he met me. I'm very clear about that. It's just at the circle, and listen, this is the, that got catching the back end of a three

and a half year relationship. Trust me, there was a whole lot of of the shit that went on to lead to this. But that was when it was like my aha moment, where it's like, okay, Ebony, if you commit the rest of your life to this man, you will never be his priority. And the only reason I would have expected otherwise is in a perfect world. It's never that I wanted to be more important than his children, y'all. Don't ever misunderstand that man.

it's that I would have hoped that my partner, the man that he was, would have demonstrated the leadership to create an environment where his love of his life is his wife, fiance wife, and his children could all coexist, right? That's how that should his leadership skills, have they been better, would have been able to say to his 2018 and 13 year old son, hey guys, I'm your father. I'm going to always be your father. You will never want for a thing in this world

as long as I have life in my body. What is also true is that this woman over here is a woman that I love. And I am bringing her into our family as a protector and a provider in tandem with you. And we will create a broader sense of family and I, your father, have enough love and resources to go around. Now, if that it happened, we will.

wouldn't be having this conversation today. But in the absence of that, and he can only do what he can do, so I'm not mad about it. It's a capacity issue there because the capacity was lacking there for that type of leadership, which was my need. That's not every other woman's meets. It's plenty of women out here that's like, bitch, you're tripping. Of course you're going to come third, four, fifth, or six behind the job. That's fine for those women, y'all. It's just not fine for me. It wouldn't be fine for me either. Fuck him. Last question I have. It wouldn't. Last question I have.

Will you come back to the Real Housewives of New York? You know, I've been cagey about that question, Rachel, but I think it's important that I now be honest in my own realization because it just kind of came to. The cancellation of the reunion actually makes me want to come back more so. Because now I feel I have a little unfinished business, if you know what I mean. Yes.

And I want to finish what I started, not by continuing to, because the dossier is closed. I'm actually really glad that we had what should be an exclusive media savvy interview conversation here because, you know, I concluded my investigation, season one. I've been able to make a determination as to where the players fall, and that file is closed. And now that I know where everybody is, we can all move on. And I'm looking forward. I would look forward to a season of fun and getting the hell out of this COVID lockdown that we were in during New York.

Yeah. While we feel, I want a real trip. Shit, that shit from Salem, that wasn't cutting it. No, that's, no. Sano, Massachusetts and Ramona's fucking house. No, no, I want a real trip. So, yeah, that's how I feel about it. Love that, because we want to see you back on our television screens.

And I'm going on as a friend of. I just want to start shit. I just want to start shit. Take me to the Hampton. Rachel, you've got to mosey your way from L.A. Right on conveniently over here in Manhattan, girls. You can have a Kiki. You know, I love bringing black women on the show to film with me.

Yeah, you were great about that. You know, bringing your time. And it was important because I wanted to show, and I know that you were talking about this on The Bachelor, too. The Bachelorette, we're not unicorns, Rachel. You know, people will see a Rachel Lindsay or they'll, they'll see me or they'll see, you know, other queens in the industry. And Amanda Seals or Angela.

And they think we're uniforms, right? Like there's only that one special negress. No. She made it. We're not. Right? Wait, no, we come from a tribe of incredible, I mean, we're both sorority girls. Like every, every black woman I know is the shit.

Exactly. And so it's important that people see that. That's the show. Wait, Van, one of the. One of the housewives, one of the housewives said, I stayed up all night reading about E.J. Walker. Oh, my God. The first black woman millionaire.

I see how committed I am. I said, bitch, you were C. E.J. E.J. Wallylele is like, CJ. And then she got mad at me. And my mom, by the way, Rachel, thank you for bringing this up real quick before we go. My mom, that is my mom's funniest C.

moment of all times because then she was like and then when you were like Ramona I just want you to get it right because I know you're going to go to the hampsons and brag to your friends about your black history knowledge and I want you to preserve the integrity of what you learn right Ebony we are so thrilled to have had you join us on highland this was really fun what a what a lot of fun thank you so much we're going to watch as you feel that seat on DeVue and hopefully you're there. I think that you just have one of the most unique, one of the strongest, one of the most unfiltered voices out there. You know I've fucked with you

for a long time. So I can't wait to see what's next. You got a real strong file, man. I fucks with you two, bro. Rachel, right there. You're just creating a mind, but that's okay. We're about to fill up. We're going to fill it up. Like, shake a point. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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I'm such a fan. I think everybody knows that. I think she's fabulous. I'm literally going to hang out with her in New York. Next time I go, I'm hitting her up. We're going to kick it. I want to see like a whole buddy movie with y'all. Adventures of Rachel and Ebony in the city.

Adventures of Rachel and Ebony in the city. The ski oops. The ski oops. The ski oops. No, I got a better one. No, this is better. This is better. The oops skis.

Appreciate that. Oopskeys, yeah. Appreciate you. Give it. first billing. You got to do that. You guys, you guys took a loss

with the whole vice president thing. I wanted to make sure I look out for my deltas. All right. Now to the wild world of movies. Daniel Craig, you know who that is? Yes,

I know who that is. Just making sure. Just making sure you know. Because sometimes I'll be like, yo, y'all be like, yo, man, Tom Cruise. And then you'd be like, I've never seen him.

What was he? Okay, I'm not that bad. Okay. Daniel Craig, who plays James Bond, came under a little fire because he says that he doesn't think a woman should play James Bond in the James Bond series going forward. So this is what the deal is. So now people are looking at James Bond as an opportunity to democratize James Bond. James Bond has always been played by a white male.

You're hearing all kinds of stuff out there now. You're hearing the possibility of Def Patel as James Bond. You're hearing Idris Elba as James Bond. You're hearing Bond from all over different type of situations, right? And there's also been some talk about maybe making a woman, James Bond. He was asked about this, Daniel Craig, who's played James Bond now for a while. In an interview with the Radio Times, and he said, the answer to that is very simple. there should be better parts for women and actors of color.

Why should a woman play James Bond when there should be a part just as good as James Bond for a woman that view echoes comments made by that view echoes comments made by Bond franchise and second producer Barbara broccoli. What the fuck? Her name is Barbara. That got to be brocoli.

That's got to be brocoli. Just call it broccoli. Nah, man. Broccoli. I'm not trying to saute. Is it spelled like broccoli? I don't know how you spell broccoli. It's B-R-O-C-O-C-O-L-I.

Is that broccoli? Or is broccoli with two? Donnie, how do you spell broccoli? No, it's two C's and one L. That's, I bet you it's, oh no, I bet you it's brocoli. I bet you it's brocoli. It can't, it's got to be. It's got to be broccoli, man.

Barbara Broccoli? It's got to be brocoli. It's got to be brocoli. It probably is broccoli. And she says brocoli, just like when I was growing up, there was somebody whose last name was spelled a certain way. And he would tell people it was Fijé, but that's not what it was. There was once a Saturday Night Live sketch.

about a guy who was always mad about names. He was mad about all the names that he could name his kid. His wife kept giving him names for the kid. And he was like, oh, no, that sucks. He was getting super mad about the names. And then when a guy delivered a package to his door at the end of the sketch, because he didn't know why he was going so crazy over all of these names, the guy delivers a package to him.

And he says, yes, we have a package for Mr. Ask Wipe Johnson. And he says, no, my name is Osweep. It's Osweep. It's very funny. So anyway, she said, she's a franchise executive producer,

Ms. Bricoli. She said, Bond is a male. He's a male character. He was written as a male, and I think he'll probably stay as a male. And that's fine. We'll have to turn male characters to women.

Let's just create more female characters and make the story fit those female characters. That's what she said. Do you care about Bond? Are you aware of the distinct maleness of Bond? Where do you stand on this issue, Rachel? So this won't be shocking to anyone. I've never seen a James Bond movie.

Not one. Not one. Fucking amazing. But I'm sorry, dog. That, hold on. Let's stay there for one second. That is actually fucking impressive. Why?

Them shits go back to like 1962 or something. Well, I'm definitely not starting there. Those are some of the best ones. Like, you've never, let me ask you. No, but I know the people who play Bond. I know, I know Pierce Crosman. I know Sean Connery. I know Daniel Craig.

I know who they are because of the figure. You ever just caught one? You ever just like it's all on? Never. God damn, how? Never. How could that be? I don't have a desire to.

But I know, my point being is I've never seen a movie. You understand what it means in culture, yes. But I understand the iconic figure that is James Bond. I just named you three. And I don't know how many there have been, but I named you three. Like there's him and then there's George Lazenby. There's Timothy, not Timothy, Dahl was James Bond.

And then there's Roger Moore. So there are a couple of more. But you got the main ones that people are going to. Yeah. Yeah. I've gotten the ones of my time and the original. And the original. Sean Conner.

Yeah. So I know who that person is. I don't have a problem with this. Because I think the way that the question was answered is saying that James Bond is a guy. And that is what this figure represents. And it's not saying that. you can't have a James Bond-like figure, but create a different movie,

create a different franchise, and create roles that give women these opportunities. But I just don't, I personally don't understand the purpose of wanting to change the figure of James Bond. I just don't. Now, if James Bond was the only movie that's ever been made in life,

and you could only, the only movie role available for you was to play James Bond, then yeah, they would need to have it for women as well so everybody could do it. But there are other opportunities and I don't understand why you need to change who James Bond is when you can just create roles for women to have just as big, if not even bigger

than what James Bond represents in pop culture. I understand your point and I tend to agree. Can I give you the counter argument and see if it maybe sways you? Please. So the counter argument is this. This is basically the counter argument. They're not going to go see. see that shit. So this is

this this would be the kind of argument. The kind of argument would be okay so James Bond Superman Batman fucking who else whoever you want to kind of make up Spider-Man all of these guys were created during the time where there was no diversity in making these

these heroes right and so then what happens is when you write these heroes in their initial incarnations they become huge and then they take up so much space in pop culture. Like Superman takes up so much space in pop culture that a character that is like Superman is actually a name for him. A character that's like Superman that has the same powers is called a Superman analog.

So if you have a guy like Hyperion or the Century or in any other, all the other universes have guys who fly are vulnerable, have heat vision, can move really fast. All of those. Those guys are called Superman analogs. and it will always be compared to Superman. So as many other characters as you invent, whether they're male or female or whatever, Superman has a distinct advantage over them because he has a cultural and actually like chronological head start.

Therefore, you can't really change that culture without in some way changing that character. So when people say, James Bond to me is a distinctly. male character. I don't think the character works as well as a female because he was written too distinctly male. It's like you can't change Black Panther and make him from Scotland because too much of who Black Panther is is steeped in the history of Wakanda. I think that James Bond as a female character is a completely different character. It's a different movie. It's a

different movie. It probably doesn't work. However, what people would say would be like, hey, you can't do a female James Bond movie. Number one, they've tried it. They've done movies like, salt with Angela Jolie and Julia Jolie. And they did a movie recently called The Rhythm Section. That was a little bit of it. There wasn't exactly a James Bond movie. Charlize Theron had a movie. And these movies aren't going to be the same as James Bond because these movies are

in effect copying James Bond. They're films that are breathing the same oxygen as James Bond. And the only way to really usher in a new era in that genre of film, would be to give the face of that genre of film a facelift. So if you have a Black James Bond or an Indian James Bond or a woman James Bond, that that goes a lot further than just making up a character that nobody is going to view as Bond and then putting them out there to try to compete with something that's like almost 100 years old. like that came out a long, long time ago.

And that in and of itself is the reason why they want to do this because they're trying to like get to the root of all of it. What would you say to that? I just think if you put a woman in there, it changes the whole movie. You're right about that. And I just, and I understand what you're saying. Like nothing compares when you've got a head start of almost, what, half a century of James Bond, however long it's been out.

I think the 40s maybe. Okay. Yeah. I think the 40s. Maybe the 50s, maybe the 50s. So yeah, it's got a head start. But I just think, you know, because it's like if you put a, if you do change, if you put a woman there and then it changes the character and it changes, I guess, James Bond. Do you keep it a woman?

What like I don't, I guess there's just so many questions to it. My thing is just I get it and it makes sense to me with the head start thing. but it's a totally different movie. And so that's why I'm like, just call it something else. Just start now. Let's start the new 100 years now. Okay. I'm with it.

You know? I guess that's just how I look at it because, and I'm not saying that that's the case for everything, you know, but there's just some roles that that is, I don't think it's being, I don't think it's discrimination for James Bond to stay a man. I just don't. I don't think it's discrimination, and I do think that there are certain aspects of his character that are distinctly male that you fund them. This is my thing.

I don't have any problem with changing any characters or updating characters as long as it doesn't fundamentally change the character. It really doesn't fundamentally change James Bond's story to make him black or Indian. It fundamentally changes his story. It's a different character, right? I'll be honest, I'll give you another one. I don't think Batman could be black. Why? I think Superman might be able to be black.

And even that's a stretch. Why can't Batman be black? Because of his dad? He's got a lot of privilege. Think about what Batman really is. Batman really, Superman is a, so Superman is a white, so Superman is a comic book character's white privilege wet dream. Batman is a comic book character's white privilege aspiration.

You can't be Superman. So you just dream about being them. You want to think you can be Batman, meaning you want to think that you can be a master of a universe that out of great sort of tragedy, Batman essentially wants to control all the crime in this city. When I say control it, he wants to get rid of it. But at the same time,

he uses money, influence, and determination. Money influence and determination to control things in Gotham City he doesn't like. That is a distinctly European way of looking at the world. That's like, it's not that Batman's not going out there. You know, the Wayne Foundation does a lot of stuff.

But Batman's like, let me build gadgets, run around at night, and beat the shit out of people till they do the right thing. That's a good point. I feel like the podcast is drifting into ringerverse territory. Very true. Very true. Let's get back. Let's get back.

Next. Okay, I'm sorry. I will like to unpack that on the ring of verse. It's interesting. I mean, I agree with you, though, about the Batman thing. So here's a deal. Two questions on social media. You want to hit these real quick.

there was this ridiculous tweet that was made all right it was tweeted and it was like who is the bigger star because one of these questions I asked you two questions

one of these questions I think is a totally disrespectful question the other one I think there's an argument okay first question

who's the bigger star Drake or Michael Jackson that was asked These kids are wacky. I'm not even going to entertain an MJ discussion on this. Drake is great. There's no disrespect to Drake. Michael's out of this world.

Michael's the biggest pops are in the history of all the shit. It's insulting to even continue a dialogue surrounding this question. So like a hundred million albums on one album. It's nuts. Guys. It's like a crazy thing. Michael, it's not, come on, man. Michael Jackson.

Thanks for the laughs. We have, get out of it. If I was Drake, I would be mad. I'll be mad at the question. Yeah, we need to hear from him. Yeah, he should speak out. Because all it really does is it makes us then go forth to minimizing Drake. Because Drake is a fucking gigantic, massive star.

But Michael Jackson is a fucking planet. He's a solar system of stars. He's the biggest fucking star that there ever was in that sense. Yeah, that's out of this world. Come on. Now, this is the second one. This is one. that I entertained

on my Twitter until the beehive straight fucking stung you every time sting you every time straight fucking punked me oh wait so this has to do with Beyonce who's bigger Drake or Beyonce

you entertained this see to me this is one that can be entertained so I'm not in the beehive but even I have to say this it's by far Beyonce. By far? Beyonce's on another level.

Because see, Beyonce's to the point where she's mysterious. She rarely makes appearances. We wonder about her. We don't do that about Drake. Beyonce doesn't, does it like come down to the level of everyone? You don't see her out and about like that. Beyonce's like on another level.

Like Drake, Drake's on a feature with like everybody. Yeah, but that's part of the reason. No, Beyonce would never. Drake starts frivolous feuds with people. Beyonce would never. See, this is not bigger though. Drake discusses his exes and songs.

Even uses their voices against their will. Beyonce would never. Right, right? Drake's always talking about who he wants to date, almost like he's like begging for some attention. Beyonce would never. Right? She made a whole album about her relationship issues.

she made an album about her personal life I said Drake is like begging like I want to date this person I want to talk this person like he's shooting his shot with people okay Beyonce whenever True true true true Other artists come for Drake Ain't nobody coming from Beyonce Nobody would never come for Beyonce

Well not after Drake trolls people Drake trolls people Beyonce would never See she would never She would never stoop down to these To these things are right And I'm so happy that you can't prepare But my thing is, you're listing reasons that Beyonce is more highbrow, elegant, respected.

But if you're talking about who's bigger, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Who would you think has sold more records, Drake or Beyonce? Who would I think has sold more records? Are we including Destiny's Child? No, we're talking about the solo careers of these people. But it's Beyonce and Destiny's Child.

No, it's not. It's Destiny's Child. It's like, like it's David Ruffin in The Temptations? Wow. Oh, my God. Somewhere Kelly Rowland just went, shit. Who hit me? I love Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams.

But no, in all seriousness, I think you have to include Destiny's Child. No, you don't, you don't, no, you don't clude it. No, because then you're cutting Beyonce's career short. You're cutting the legs off her career. That's not fair. Her career started in 2003. That's not fair. No, it did not.

Her career started with Destiny's Child. Nope. I'm not. Okay, here's the thing. Then I say Beyonce and I'm including Destiny's Child. But you can't include Destiny's Child. You're cutting her career short. You're cutting her career short.

You cut her career short. We're talking about the records sold as a solo act. No, you made that rule up. You said how many records has Beyonce's soul? She was a part of Destiny. She sold them records with Destiny's Child. I'm sorry. But fine.

Is your point going to be since her career started in 2003? You're going to say Drake sold more than her. Fine. No. So look, first of all, I'm not even arguing anymore. Listen, when I say I'm not arguing it, I'm really saying, hey, leave me to fuck alone. I'm saying I'm not arguing it. I don't want to have the argument.

What I'm saying is there, while there is, I can't imagine a metric where Drake is a bigger deal than Michael Jackson. And there might be one. There might be one. Maybe Drake has more number ones or something or whatever. I'm not sure. I know he didn't get his first number one until a couple years ago, but I'm not sure. Streaming changes everything.

There at least is a metric where Drake is a bigger artist than Beyonce, like a definitive metric. And Drake was just given artists of the decade by Billboard. He just won that. And so what I'm saying is that there's, at least a I'm not saying that he's bigger than Beyonce yes he's a big artist what I'm saying is what I'm saying is there's at least an argument that Drake is bigger than Beyonce right now no okay hey she's right she's right don't fucking come for me that's what

he's just scared he's really wants he really believes no you guys he's just scared I really don't no no no I really don't people made a lot of good points when I when we were talking people make a lot of good points. The best point is the 75 year old grandmother test, which I did. My grandma's a little older now. I was like, hey, um, Moma,

what's your favorite Drake song? She's like, now who that now? Drake, what do you sing? And I gave her a couple songs and she knew the songs. But when I said, uh,

I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know. I said, now what's your favorite Beyonce song? She goes, I like them all. I like single ladies.

I like, uh-oh. I like, Uh-oh. All right. Mailback? Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

I was looking around to see if there's anything else. We got like a million things on a rundown today. But the reality is that, oh, I do want to touch on one thing before we leave. There's in no way are we turning our attention away from what's happening in Texas right now. I do want to bring up one thing about Texas. Texas before we leave. A little bit of a lighter episode. I want to talk,

there's one thing I want to talk about with Texas. Look, we were all happy to remove Donald Trump. Everybody was happy to remove Donald Trump. Everyone. Everyone was happy that probably listens to this podcast. We were happy to remove Donald Trump. As well, we'll remind people of something right now. Donald Trump is not the president.

He's not. The things in the Trump administration have carried over to this administration, this is a tough situation for, for any politician, any administration to deal with. These are people that are coming from a place and they're looking to better their lives. They're looking to actually, in some cases, have lives. And there is a compassionate way that they have to be dealt with. And we have to care about those lives.

And we have to, like I said before, we have to care about our role in the destabilization of Haiti and then Haiti situation right now. not just us as in the United States, the world community. The role that they've played, Sunny Haustin, was amazing on this on The View. I don't know if you saw, she talked about it very passionately about that. But I'm telling you guys right now that if you don't like what's happening at the border in Texas, if you don't like how people are being treated, if you don't like how people are living there, the conditions, where the women, how, how, how, how, women on their periods and that are pregnant are being handled, whether or not people are

bathing, if, in fact, people are being run down on from horseback, like they are either cattle today or human beings in 1840. If you don't like that, the buck stops one place. And I know you guys don't want to hear this, but it stops in walking distance from where I'm where I am right now at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. and the people who are accountable, not saying that they created the problem, but it is their job to solve it.

Right. So there can be no kid gloves for the Biden administration. There can be no kid gloves for Kamala Harris, no kid gloves for Simone, no kid gloves for any of the operatives that told us who to vote for. Did we get out the guy that we wanted to get out? Yeah, but it still remains to be seen whether or not we have the guy in there that we actually need.

Yeah. And these situations that the Biden administration has been hit with talking about the Delta variant, talking about Afghanistan, talking about this. This is what the fucking job is. And I would be lying to you guys if I told you I thought they were doing a great job right now. Yeah. I think it's subpar. So, and I'm not going to, I don't want to, you guys are going to accuse me of doing the word for Fox News and not being this and all that. No, I don't think.

No, I don't think that. I think that, you know, in the last episode, we talked about Fox News because I happened to be watching it. And, but we, you talked about, you, you briefly talked about Biden and its administration. I said there's still got, there's still issues with the way the Biden administration is handling it. I don't think that's doing the work for Fox News. That's calling it like it is. Who's in it? It's the policies from the Trump administration, but the Biden administration has it.

Okay, you guys. Okay, you guys. Okay, you guys. This is not a laughing matter. We are not laughing at what the issue is. But if you're watching this on video, you saw that Van decided to take a sip of water. And he missed his mouth completely. No, actually, what happened was, I tried to take a sip of water and the cap was still on the water.

Oh, I thought you missed your mouth. And then it dribbled down. Okay, I saw the dribble. Right. I'm sorry. I'm not laughing at the issue. But see, this is why don't stop. Don't drink.

Don't drink. People don't like when we drink and eat on the podcast. Okay. I want. And that's case of point. But no, no, no, no. I'm saying this all to say, I don't think people are going to accuse you of doing, you know, the work of the conservative side or, you know, the Trumpers or anything like that. It is what it is.

What's happening is unacceptable. And we need to see things done immediately by what's happening or with Biden's administration, not just Biden. Kamala, too. Comma La 2. And by the way, in the meantime, do what you can. Go to different people's Instagrams. You know, Jesse Wu's doing a lot of stuff on this. She did a conversation with Jamal Bryant earlier.

Very informative. Go to different people's Instagrams. Look around and see what you can do to get money directly, get funds directly to the people who need them. Okay, let's go to mailback. Jamal Bryant. Yeah, Jamal Bryant was on there. The minister? Yeah.

All right, mailback. First question, let's do it. Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. From Lady Bird 610. what were your first experiences like with social media and how old were you?

I had college club. Wow. Never even heard of it. Yeah, it was college club. CCP001 at college club. Wow. I've never heard of it. I tried to fight social media as long as I could.

I actually got on Facebook on a dare. And I might have had a MySpace. I had a MySpace, yeah. Maybe that. I definitely had A. and all of that kind of stuff, Messenger, if that counts. But Facebook was the real thing.

My space, in a lot of ways, was superior to Facebook, if I'm being honest. Okay. Top eight. Come on there. Music plays, all of that. But I had college club.

And then college club was, there was a scandal in Baton Rouge in college club. It was the first time I ever witnessed revenge porn. Oh, wow. A guy was mad at his girlfriend, the girl that we knew. And he changed his college club picture to, he changed her college club picture actually to a picture of her giving him oral sex

and that kind of that that was the that was the that was the that was the that was the end it was very bad it was a whole big thing very bad shame on you shame on you for doing that uh okay uh next one from mega megas toson mega megas tos if you could have one talent in the world oh we've answered that uh oh we've done it mine would be flipping Thank you for that question. Moving on to one of them, what it would be. From Blender, 126, if you could host any Bravo reunion, which show would you pick? Below decks.

You watched that? Yeah. Or did you just name it? Really? That's the one Bravo show. See, there's two types of people that watch Bravo. That's the one I don't watch. I change.

I change my mind. Okay. Real Housewives of Potomac for me. Million dollar listing, baby. Which city? I like New York I gotta be honest with you I love those fucking guys

He like Frederick Frederick is the fucking man Frederick is the guy man It's crazy All right Let's keep going Let's keep going Go

From Cassie etc What's the best compliment You've ever received It was just It's not ever But I can tell you about the nicest thing I was just watching something That I saw over on

Our Thoughtwood The most popping team Reddit that's ever lived. The Reddit with the nicest butt is our thought warriors. Go over there. I saw this guy who does this, What Are You Listening to Thing? And it was in Harvard. And he got this girl, and he was like, he goes around.

He goes, what are you listening to? And then he takes the music and he puts it in there. And he asks this girl, was walking down the street at Harvard. He's like, what are you listening to? And she goes, I'm listening to a podcast. It's called Higher Learning. Shut up. Yeah.

It was really dope. I'll send it to you. Oh my gosh. And I love that the Thought Warriors caught that. You guys are awesome. Yeah. You really are the most popping Reddit group out there. I sent it to Bill Simmons.

You sent it to Bill and not me? I'm like, look, we out here. You asked for race? Got to keep the back flowing. All right. I actually love hearing about Thought Warriors in the while. Compliment, that's a great compliment. I would just say, I don't know if it's the best.

But I always love when, like, I feel like my world has changed so much. And I feel like it has in the last four years. And I love when my friends from home. And you know what? They said it the most is with this podcast, feel like I'm still true to who I am. Like the person before any of this, any TV, any podcast, any, anything like that. When they're like, I don't feel like you change it all. You're still the exact same person.

And they say that the most when they listen to me on higher learning. That's very nice. Yeah, yeah. Because I hate that you change shit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, out of here, dude. All right.

Last one. From Anna Karen Smith. Showering, do you physically wash your feet or do you just let the soapy water run over them? Anna, you white. We wash our feet. I love you to death. We wash our feet. Anna, Anna, I love you.

I don't want you to be upset. I know you're white. And let me tell you why you're asking this question because you know that you need to get your ass down there and wash your motherfucking feet. You know. But you know culturally, it hasn't been something that's been really stressed

and you're wondering, hey, do they know something over there? Do they know something? We do. Wash your feet. Anna, I love you. When I say I love you, if we had a shirt right now

for asking this question for bearing your soul with us, I would give you a shirt. Anna Karen Smith. You don't want to be your middle name, Anna. We wash our feet. I used to have a homie. Shout out to Terrell Brown. He used to always say he didn't trust people who did not watch their feet in the shower.

Wash them. We want to trust you. Wash your feet in the shower. We love you. Wash your feet. All right. That's enough. It's over.

We've been giving you guys some supersized podcast lately. Next podcast we give you probably going to be like 105, maybe even come in at a taut 59 minutes. Do you have an unexpected ally of the week? No. I did. You did. And I and I and I and I lost because I find them earlier in the week and then I lose them. Sorry guys.

Yeah. I have one. You do? Yes. Go ahead. It's actually Alex Jones. Who? Alex Jones.

The Info Wars guy. You know what? It was a fucking joke but you don't know who Alex Jones is. You don't fuck what. Like you never heard of Alex Jones. Jones, the Info Wars dude. He was in Austin. Info wars.

Alex Jones. Info wars. You know, the whole thing was a joke and the joke didn't land because you don't know Alex Jones. Just like this isn't landing? The crazy conspiracy theory dude. Info wars, an American far right conspiracy theory and fake news website owned by did he do something recently?

No, I was just joking around. The fucking podcast is over. Keep your Keep your thinking caps all But do not stop learning I'll fuck Alex Jones And everybody who fucks with him I am Van Lathen Jr.

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay We out