Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Nina Turner and the Democratic Playbook

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Van and Rachel welcome former Ohio senator Nina Turner to hear her thoughts on the Democratic strategy to fight gerrymandering. (0:00)  Intro (1:32)  Snoop & Pixar’s LGBTQ character (8:54)�� Bill Maher changes tone on Trump (22:02)  Dean Cain’s ICE training (30:21)  Serena Williams weight loss journey (43:04)  Jussie Smollett doc review  (58:08)  Nina Turner joins the show Host: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Nina Turner Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yeah, Thought Warriors. What is up? Harylian is on. It's Iban Latham Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. We have Nina Turner coming on the podcast, from Ohio City. By the way, she's going to correct the record on some of the things that people have said about her

that even we said about her as we introduced her. Which I like. I like that. Bring that energy in. I've been looking forward to this conversation. So she's going to join us a little bit. We talked to her for about an hour. Which we promised her we wouldn't do.

We promised her we would talk to her. Rachel I went to the Clips concert. We did. Thank you. Van, Van hooked it up. Saturday night. Me and Calico. With me, Calico. Rachel, there were mini suitors for Rachel.

That is not. It's not true. Niggas was coming up to me. There was a woman. A lot of niggas. Rachel got asked out a couple of times by a couple of people. I don't think that she thought she was going to get asked out by those people. Oh, shout out to my homeboy.

Shout to Sean Dickerson. Sean Dickerson. We rode around and Sean Dickerson's May Back. Sean was, yeah, like he hooked us up. I felt like we were riding in style. Sean got the Mayback. Sean come picked us up with the Mayback. He acts like he'll be doing shit.

He'd be doing the most. Shout to Sean Dixon. Everybody that we ran into that night, a special appreciation from the clips themselves, from Malice and Pushy T. Shout out to all the love and hospitality and everything that they showed us.

It was a great show. It was a great show. Fantastic. Kendrick popped out. At the beginning. All right. So since we're talking about rappers, let's continue to talk about rappers.

You guys know how much I love talking about rappers. Donnie, first topic. Yeah, Snoop was on the It's Giving podcast recently and talked about taking his grandkids to go see the Lightyear movie a couple years ago. I took my grandson to see what was the movie with a Buzz Light. Toy Story? Not that one, but the same. Oh, the new buzz? The Light Year.

I think it was the Light Year. Yeah, with Kiki Palmer's in that movie. Okay, okay. She plays like the daughter. So we're watching it. And the lady, which is Kiki's mama. They move on into the space years. They move down the line.

They're like, then she had a baby with a woman. My grandson in the middle of the movie, like, Papa Snoop, how does she have a baby with a woman? She's a woman. Oh, shit. I didn't come in for this shit. I just came to watch the goddamn movie.

Hey, man, watch the movie. Uh-uh. They just said, she and she had a baby. They both women's. How did she have a baby? Shh. the movie ain't overwit.

So it's like, it's fuck me. I'm scared to go to the movies. Like, y'all throwing me in the middle of shit that I don't have an answer for. Okay, so a couple of things here. This is another example of why I told you that we should have gone out to see the light year movie in droves. Okay?

Because this is what happened. The movie came in light and then it was carte blanche for everybody to like criticize the movie or whatever. Go, whoa, go broke, whatever. Put that to the side. I'm going to do something for the homies. All other homies, other older homies. I'm going to tell them two things.

One, just so you know, it's your job to explain things to kids. That's your job. So if you don't want to explain things to children, then you should not be around children. Because children are going to ask you to explain everything. They're going to ask you to explain oxygen, why the sky is blue. Why this, why that it's kids. So because that's what they're going to do, it's actually your responsibility to develop the language in order to explain things to children. And straight black brothers is your job to explain sexual diversity and orientation to younger kids.

So rather than lament the fact that that's your job, learn how to do it. Very simple. Uncle Van, how can two women have a kid? Well, they either adopted the kid or one woman was inseminated and then they have the kid. The most important thing is younger brother is that loving families come in all different types of ways. Well, why are two women together? Because it's very simple. Some boys like boys.

Some girls like girls. Some girls like boys and girls. Some boys like boys and girls. And everyone, as long as they're safe and consenting, can do whatever they want. and they should get the same type of love and appreciation and acceptance from everybody. You won't want anybody getting on you for something that your body tells you to do, right,

for who you are naturally. You don't want anybody making those determinations or like teasing you because you're black or because you're from Baton Rouge or because you talk a certain way or because you look a certain way. That's why it's bad to do that to other people because we shape their lives in negative ways. So look at people and understand

and accept that God created everybody in different, diverse ways, and that's a reason why we should love them. That's it. That's all you got to do. And when I say this, man, I'm telling you, that's all you got to do. The question I'm asking to all of y'all to make this same tired-ass argument every time you have to ask, answer a question from a child about this is do you want to do it. That's why it's up to us to develop the language to explain our situations and contextualize them before we give it back. to the younger generation. Because if we're not dealing with our shit,

how can we answer their questions? So in all of this time and all of this stuff, like work on it, do it. But coming back and being like, I don't want to have to, if you don't want to have to do it, then don't take the kid, the kid going to have questions about everything.

It's your job to answer the questions for the kids. Because I can tell you one thing, if that situation was different, if that kid came up and asked Snoop, yo, Uncle Snoop, granddad, Snoop, whatever, how do I talk to girls? I bet you got to answer for that question. Sure.

Yo, Uncle Snoop, how do I get money? How do I rap? I bet you got to answer for that question because you've thought about it. You've considered it. And you've made a value system about what a young man should learn. Do you think it's even important that a young man learns how to be a good member of his community for the people in his community that are marginalized or persecuted? Is that even important to you?

Is it important to you that a young man knows how to be a good member? to protect the people in his society or community that are not protected. Does that even matter to you? Because if it matters to you, then you'll be gleeful and happy to take that question on and make another good person. So whenever you made the decision to bitch about shit like this, you're making the decision to undergird the status quo and I don't fuck with it. I think it's lazy and I think it's ridiculous and it's not just in a situation of Snoop.

I think everybody who asks lazy, homophobic, idiotic questions like this that you fall into the same fucking truck. You said the word. It's homophobic. That's what it is. It is a homophobic thought. It is a homophobic comment that was made.

And everything that you said is true and it's right. Because it's not that he's answer the questions about a woman or about money or about rapping because he's thought about it. it's that it's not just that he's thought about it, he's comfortable with those things. He likes those things. The reason he didn't want to talk about these things is because they make him uncomfortable. He has some sort of issue with it, which makes these comments homophobic.

That's what it is. You have to call it like it is. And so for that, because it's that, it goes beyond disappointing because here's the thing. Let's just say, I don't know with certainty, but I'm pretty sure his grandchild has watched the Lion King. that means that if you watch that movie, or for any parent whose kid watched this movie and maybe they had a problem with it and they watched something like The Lion King,

that means that you deal with death in a very tragic way. Your child is most likely going to ask you about death. It's probably the first time they're going to see it, maybe. It's traumatic. It's gut-wrenching. And you have to explain death to a child. There are other themes within that movie. There's birth in that movie.

You have to maybe explain that. There's jealousy. There's resentment. You see brothers that don't get along. There are all these questions that arise from a movie. And I have yet to really hear somebody complain about a movie like that. But all of a sudden, when it deals with same sex or being anything a part of the queer community, it's a problem that you don't want to ask questions about when there are a lot of themes that bring questions up for children in these animated movies. So when you scrap all of that away, it's homophobic.

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On the latest episode of Real Time with Bill Maher, he had this to say about the first few months of Trump's second term. I don't know if I was the first one to use the phrase slow-moving coup. I know I was using it before he was... Thank you. I know I was using it before he was president the first time. So maybe somebody got to it first. I don't know. And people were laughing at it.

I mean, whenever I said he was never going to concede power, they would say, oh, you smoke too much pot. Well, it turned out I smoked just the right amount of pot. So now, what's going on in Washington, D.C. I'll ask you this first, because he does this magic trick. You know, he's passing out pizza, and it's all about big balls, and we're all laughing at what's going on in D.C. Yeah, he's passing out pizza of the troops. If there was a slow-moving coup,

let me just describe some of the steps, and you tell me if I'm being paranoid. First, create a masked police force. get people used to looking at that. Normalize snatching people off the street. Get them used to that. Normalize seeing the Guard, the National Guard, and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the capital, which is basically, you know, has always been a fairly crime-ridden city. This is our nation's capital where elections are decided.

And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops, not just the National Guard there in D.C., but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. Rachel, let me ask you a question. Who's your favorite pedophile? Sorry, man, I don't have one. Donnie, who's your favorite pedophile?

Same answer. Ashley? I do not know. Okay. Ashley, you don't have one. Okay. I'll ask, I'll ask the question in a different way. Rachel, who's the nicest pedophile, you know? There's no such thing.

Donnie? I don't know any pedophiles. Just in culture, the nicest pedophile you know. Okay, good. Ashley, nicest, most palatable pedophile. Your favorite one? I don't have an answer. You don't have one.

Okay, cool. Do you know why? Why? Because once somebody is identified to you as a pedophile, you fell to judge them as anything other than a pedophile, which makes a lot of sense. Because once someone has done something, that is so bad

or at cross purposes with the way you look at the world to such a degree, you stop looking for reasons to say, oh, that guy's a nice guy. And I guess my question for the Bill Maher's of the world is Trump,

who is the president, Bill Maher, has before the election and then since the election, I, identified as an enemy of democracy and an enemy of freedom in this case,

why did you describe it as such a nice guy? What is the fascination with laundering the reputation of someone who is capable of such abusive, restrictive, and un-American crime as a coup or trying to take people's rights. Why isn't Trump somebody who we judge by the worst things that he does with power?

Because I distinctly remember Bill Maher going down to have dinner with President Trump. When President Trump was flirting, excuse me, when Bill Maher was flirting with a direct white rightward shift and becoming an acolyte of MAGA, which is exactly what was happening. I remember him going down there and telling us how nice of a guy he was and how easy it was to have a conversation with him and conjecturing that he was able to have conversations with Donald Trump that he doesn't think that he would be able to have with Barack Obama or some guys on the left.

Look, I don't know how he communicates. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not. But then the fire gets turned up again and we start to see with nice guy, easy to talk to guy, easy to have dinner with guy, good old fashioned slap on the back, cool guy Donald Trump is capable of, and all of a sudden, Bill Maher is back to the, I told you so's.

He's back to the, oh my God, things are going to get as bad as I said they were going to get again. And this is the soft, this is the soft power of white supremacy that there's still a human in there. For him, it doesn't matter what Donald Trump does. There's still a look, I got to tell you about the guy. I got to tell you how awesome the guy is. It's obviously I understand it, but if he's such a bad guy and he's going to do all of these things that you said he was going to do before and that he's doing now, why did you go down tomorrow long ago to lick his dick? Mm. Mm.

What? I don't get that part. Like, why? I think there are certain people. who are just so, and I have no idea why, because I'm with you on that, and I love everything that you said. To me, he lost all credibility after going, having dinner at Mar-a-Lago with President Trump and then his response thereafter. So when Bill Maher goes to Mar-Lago, it had been around 90 days since Trump had been in office in this new administration second time. Here are some of his greatest hits within those 90 days. We had the tariff for, we had Doje on a range,

We had the immigration policies that he put out there. You had massive cuts of federal employees of different departments. You had him threatening news outlets calling for their licenses to be revoked. He had offered clemency to those who, in connection to attack on the Capitol for January for January 6th. He had blamed DEI on that midair collision, that tragic midair collision over the Potomac. He ordered diversity efforts to be shut down. The list goes on and on and on and on. Things that he had done that you had known, and that's just a tip of the iceberg,

as you were walking to dinner with Mar-a-Lago, all the things have been out there. And then as I was looking at this, I was like, he went on Chris Cuomo before he got his invitation. Sat down with Chris Cuomo, and he talked about why he had accepted that invitation, a dinner invitation from President Trump,

bragged about his friendship with Kid Rock, who is racist and homophobic as well. And then he talked about also what he hoped to come of that dinner. And some of the things that he said was he opened up about how he had been critical of both political parties and how people had lost trust in these institutions. But he said that he had the credentials to walk into that dinner and sit down with Trump. He said that there was no one harder on Trump than he has been. He said that he's an honest person. And he said if they expect me to leave like Kanye, or I'm sorry, if they expect me,

to leave like Kanye in a maga hat, they will be disappointed. And when I see how he walked into that, I don't know if I believed him or not, then how he came out, to me it was worse. Because not only did he come out complimenting President Trump, he came out trying to convince us to believe those same things, as if we would be duped or drink the Kool-Aid in the same way that he did. To me, that's worse. It's not like he just stood by it and was like, this is what I think, because I had this personal a one-on-one experience. I am now trying to convince you to do those same things. And now, since time has passed, Trump has done even more. And it's not like, as I just said, some of the things he did in those first 90 days were horrendous as well or were planting the seed for the

things that he's doing now. But he came back basically with a verbal love letter about Donald Trump. And then now he wanted us to believe those same things. And then now he wants us to believe the things that he's saying now. I watched you fold like a flower after you came from our I have no respect for anything that you say now because I feel like anytime you're put in front of Trump, you had a unique opportunity to confront him on the things that you had said before to your audience, to the public. And instead of doing that, you talked about how funny he was, how you can get along with him versus other presidents, as you had mentioned. And what a good time you had with everybody else. So what credibility do you have now to talk about this slow-moving

coop and have your audience clap for you or want to pat on the back because you're calling out the thing Trump has done because we know when you are face to face with him, it's a completely different story. Okay. So I'll say this, a couple of things. Number one, in his, I think it was 12-minute monologue about that, he did talk about some things that he felt like he called President Trump on. He did say that.

Number one. So want to make sure that we're accurate. Nothing in the way that he does on his show. I want to make sure we're accurate here. He did say that he called President Trump on a couple things. Another thing is this. The things that you read off in that first 90 days, I think that Bill Maher agrees with those things.

I think that's the thing. I think that these anti-D-EI, I think all of that stuff that you're talking about, I don't know that there's anything in there that jumps out at me with, that he would hate. And this is a part of it, right? A part of it to me is

the things that happened early on in the administration that Donald Trump said that he was doing. I heard a lot of people saying, well, Doja's going to find ways fraud and abuse. What's wrong with that? DEI is reverse racism. What's wrong with that? Like, we do need to overhaul our immigration system. What's wrong with that? I think that there were people who, despite January 6th, despite all of the carnage that we had seen with the big lie, despite the first Trump administration, still gave President Trump the benefit of the doubt. They still gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was going to come in. Things were not going to be chaotic. He was not going to attack people civil. liberties. He wasn't going to attack the rule of law. He wasn't going to be an authoritarian. He wasn't going to do any of that stuff that he was just going to come in and get America back on track.

And the question that I'm asking is why? Like Bill Maher, President Trump has forced people, forced people like Bill Maher, away from him. And the only reason why is because it's not because of Bill, in my opinion, it's because there are people out there that need to have credibility with audiences, that the audience asks you, hey, the audience made up of people who can just see things. I keep saying this and nobody believes me. I go on CNN and I'll be on Abby show and, you know, I'll be sitting around a group of Republicans or people. And I'll say, hey, I want to let you guys know this, that Americans are going to see people

in the streets like the military in the streets of D.C. and Chicago. And they're not going to like that. and Americans are going to see people jumping out of, and these are people who may have voted for Donald Trump, Americans are going to see people jumping out of unmarked vehicles to snatch people up. They're going to see people being ripped away from their parents. They're not going to like that. It's going to make them uncomfortable.

And then you're going to have to square that with them in front of a mic and say why that guy is your guy. And we've already seen it. We've already seen flagrant. We've already seen Rogan. We've already seen Tim Dillon. We've already seen Theo Vaughn. We've already seen places that were pretty supportive of the president

have to square it with their audiences and have a conversation about why some of this stuff that he's doing, they actually don't like. My question goes back to earlier on, be it Bill Maher or anybody else, was there a responsible and adequate conversation about what the president was saying he was going to do before he got there by some of these people with some of these platforms. Were the questions asked, we talk a little bit about this with Senator Turner,

was there actual, actual interrogation of what the president's agenda was and how that was going to affect people? Or were you just happy that you could say the R word again? And so to me, when I look at Bill, I'm like, yo, Bill Maher's show is goaded, it's meant it, it's not going anywhere. Every time he says a syllable to audience,

claps. He's got complete control over them. But like I sit down and I watch this stuff and you're sounding an alarm on Trump's terrifying, slow moving coup. Man, you yeah. Yeah.

You was fucking with him. You were telling us what and trying to make us believe it too. Okay. This episode is brought to by weather tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those

weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Donnie, what's the next one? The next one is Dean Kane.

former Superman and current ICE agent appeared on Fox News this weekend where we saw him going through a training course and he's struggling. Struggling, struggling, struggling. I don't know if y'all can see this. Yeah, we saw it before, man. I love it. This is probably my favorite video from these past few days.

So, you know, I came here ready to to shit all over Dean Kane. So this is the deal. I'm definitely going to shit on Dean Kane being a part of ICE. Fuck ice. 1,000% and a million percent. Then I had to ask myself

you know, how I would... Just don't go there. I had to, you know, I'm going to come on here and give Dean Kane a bunch of shit because this fuck ICE 1,000% and fuck anybody who wants to launder ICE's reputation, which is what

Kane is doing. But then I have to ask myself, before I give Dean Kane the business about what he's doing, if you put me out there, because if you put me out there, we all know that the titties is going, the titties is going to make a, they're going to be out there. You might see the crack of my ass when I'm trying to go over some of these things. Just on the athletic, uh, uh, fucking, uh, performance of Dean Kane. Just on that, I can't, I can't throw stones and hide my hands there. Yes, you can.

Let me tell you why. All right, cool. You would never have it recorded. You never have, first off, you wouldn't sign up. You might, you might. You just talked about this. I recorded the sparring. That's, oh, that's, no, no.

That's because, like, as a person who does not know, I've never seen sparring before, or I shouldn't say like that, I've seen sparring, but, like, I'm not an expert. I watch you and I'm like, okay, look, he's in there doing his thing, right? But I can clearly look at this obstacle, course until Dean Cain is not. Now, I feel like if you had seen the obstacle course, you might be like, hey, can we cut the cameras?

Let me just do a practice run through. Let me just try to figure it out. Let me see the footage first. I don't know if Dean saw it. Dean didn't care. I'm not quite sure. But don't put compare yourself to this because I don't think you would ever let it get this far. One, you would never, you would never sign up.

But just say you were doing it for fun. You would never let it get this far to where you would, if you saw yourself looking like that, that you would then allow that for public, You just wouldn't unless it was for fun. Dean K. was very serious in here. And I love this video because I see this and I said, sign him up. Sign him up.

Sign anybody else who's on this level. 59 years old and out of shape because ain't nobody getting caught. I think what Dean did was one time it was a dunk video, right? I think we played the dunk video. It's 39. and when you dunk that bitch, when it goes in, all you think to yourself is,

damn, I dunked. Then you watch the video, play the video. And you just get off the ground. You're stretching out like the Jordan symbol to just get over the rim. And you see the whackness that is you. The whackness. Dean came while he was going through the ice obstacle course

was probably like, I'm the fucking man. Superman who, nigga? The fuck. I'm the fuck that shit. I'm Dean Kane. I'm George Tanaka. And I nailed this shit.

I'm the one. Send me a bad umbrella and I'm a catch him. And then you watch it. And you might as well put the Benny Hill music underneath Dean Kane being on the motherfucking obstacle course, man. Dean probably thought he was doing this shit. And he also was probably responding to all of these people that said, He ain't got it no more.

You got to think about when he came. You sure told them, Dean. Dean played football at Princeton or something like that. Then he almost made it to the NFL. Dean is all past tense. Dean in his mind,

you know who Dean is? Dean one of the niggas playing. Delusion? No, he wanted the niggas playing. 40 football. Dean wanted the niggas playing. This was, this is. Dears an ACL the first day.

This is Dean's. Dean should get, you know what? This is what I'm going to tell Dean. Dean, you ain't got to be for ice. because that's not really all ICE is going to do. We don't like ICE. Dean should actually play safety in the U-40 football league. That's something we could all get behind.

If Dean would have done that, if Dean would have done that, Dean said I want to recapture my youth. I want to be relevant again. So I'm going to join ICE. ICE has become an oppressive, masked, arm wing of the President's secret police. And we're not fucking with ICE.

And it don't matter who. joins ice. Okay. It don't matter who. There's nobody who could join ice right now and I'm going to be like, go ice. No one. Nobody, nobody, nobody could join ice.

I'm going to be like, fuck, ice is great. But if Dean actually played you 40 football, got out there as safety. And catch who? Whoever. My point is, nobody, again, we're in the same position. He ain't catching nobody. I'm trying to tell Dean. I'm trying to help Dean.

Dean. do that. Get out there and put your body on the line for the, for the, for the,

not like this though. I can't wait to somebody like juke's him. Like a, like, because you know, Dean's bold enough to not wear his mask.

Oh no, Dean going out there. You know what? Dean will go out there in the glasses like Clark Kent and think people can't fucking recognize him.

Dean will go out there and put the glasses on. Hey, it's me. With the, yeah, with the cake. Yeah,

but here's a important thing about Dean. I just want to tell Dean one more time. people laughing at you, bro. Fox and friends are not your friends. For them to play that clip and put you out there, not your friends.

They fucking over you. And I know Dean been macking for a long time, so maybe this is his dream. They'll go out there. You know, people have these long enforcement dreams, but they're not, they fucking over you. Even Dr. Phil isn't trying to put, he's out there too.

He's out there one time now. But he's not like out there trying to run and chase and go through obstacle courses. I'm not trying to give him anything. I'm just saying at least he knows his lane. When Dr. Field get fucked over, I'm a laugh. Yeah. No, I'm saying, no, no, no, hold it for a second.

Dr. Phil has gone too far. When it happens to Dr. Phil, when a nigga golf Dr. Phil in his mouth, I'm a laugh, man. Dr. Phil, it's going to happen to you. I've watched Dr. Phil in these conversations. And I watched him in a conversation with Chink from the Young Turks

who have plenty of, of disagreements with guys. Plenty of disagreements with. Like a deep wellspring of disagreements with, but I watched him in this conversation with Dr. Phil and, you know,

Chink was trying to have it. You know, he does this, oh, good faith with Maga thing now. We got to, Chin got this way of talking. We got to understand that MAGA, the people are not the enemy.

You ba-da-da-da-da-da. He's got this way of talking. But in his conversation with Dr. Phil, Dr. Phil started to frustrate him with the bullshit. And I got the feeling that in that situation, Chink was about to, he was getting pissed

off at Dr. Phil. Because Dr. Phil could get under a nigger's skin. He really can't. So when it happens to Dr. Phil, I'm going to laugh, man. In what way? It's going to happen. A physical way? Whatever. His media company already went bankrupt. When it happens to Dr. Phil, I'm a laugh.

I mean, he's a new one now. That's all I'm saying. The other one, you know, the soup kitchen was underwent bankrupt. What did? Oh, you like that? Oh, you like that. Well, I'm saying you were looking for, you said when he gets it. I'm thinking his media company and that's a big media company, he went bankrupt. Now he's another one. We haven't talked about soup kitchen lately.

There's nothing to say. What you mean? There's nothing to say. Kitchen's closed. Serena, she recently talked about taking some weight loss medication after she was struggling to see results from diet and exercise after birthing her two daughters. Let's hear from. from Serena. Well, a lot of people have been wondering about my new fitness journey and what I've been doing. And I've been really open about me being on GLP-1s. And I thought it was really important just to come out and say it. So I'm on a GLP1 through row.com. And for me, it was really just about taking away that stigma of like, is it a lazy way? Is it a shortcut? Like, why would you do that? And so for me, like after having my first kid with Olympia and then, you know, in particular after having the second kid, I was never able to be at a healthy weight that I could be at, whether it was my joints or blood sugar levels. It was just

always something that I suffered with. And a lot of women actually go through this. And I always said that I feel like, for me personally, I feel like, you know what, after I had my kids, after I got a tad bit older, like my body was actually missing something, no matter what I did, I literally was playing professional tennis. And you can even see like sometimes I would, I had, I just really awesome documentary a few years ago. And you can see in the documentary, my coach is tell me you have to lose weight. You have to lose weight. I'm playing professional tennis. I'm literally training five hours a day. And I would always work my way to one point of the scale, and it would never go below that. This had a lot of people talking. A lot of people were in support.

This is what I will say. You know, we've talked about celebrities that I feel like are universally loved. I feel like Serena's up there. Serena almost has a don't mess with Serena mentality, protect her at all costs. So people were on both sides of the fence when it comes to this, When it comes to weight loss drugs, a lot of people have strong opinions on them. So a lot of people are in support of Serena because they said, oh, she's taking control over life. She was, you know, was unhealthy in certain ways. She couldn't get off certain weight. She chose this method.

Good for her. Other people felt like she was cheating. Other people didn't like this. She said, hey, I'm on my fitness journey when they feel like you used a weight loss drug to achieve that. you have been open about using a weight loss drug. I'm sure you saw the serena of it all. What were your initial thoughts? So first of all,

about me being on a weight loss drug, I want to say something right now. These weight loss drugs can't fuck with me. Right? My fact is better than these drugs. I didn't beat these drugs. Okay, I still take the Majaro weekly. Maybe you just see that up the dose.

And I'm fucked now. I'm at the highest. level. I'm at the highest level of Manjaro and I'm fucking over to Manjaro. Whatever scientist is out there that's inventing this shit, you can't fuck with me. I'm better than you. Everybody else lost 100 fucking pounds. Me, I lose a half a pound every other month. Because I am the man. When it comes to fucking over a weight loss drug, send me whatever weight loss drugs you got. It doesn't curve your appetite? See, a little bit. But not to the point to where I'm not going to have some ice cream with the chocolate

Sunday, not to the point to where I'm not going to do my thing. I get on the scale. And when I seek, I get on the scale and I go, yeah, nigga. I'm a man. I'm fat. Okay. And that's the way God made it. So your weight loss drugs and all of that shit, send them.

Send me all of this shit. Nothing like. You've only done Manjaro. I've only done Manjaro. and I lost some weight, right? And then my body got to the point where it said, no more. Fuck that shit, we're done with that shit.

They need to study you. They need to study me. All this money they make it, they need to study me. Take the challenge on. I am the one of the people. I've beaten the weight loss drug. The weight lost drug can't do nothing to me. You never go look at me.

That nigger, Van, look sick. No, that's not going to happen. It's not going to happen to me, right? Other people, you go, whatever. All right, so that's one thing. The second thing is this. So I think two things, happening here, if I'm being honest.

Anybody who is saying that using a weight loss drug is cheating is, to me, silly. And I'll tell you why. It's a silly thing to say. Because there are myriad other drugs to control things and those drugs are

not cheating, right? If you're using a cholesterol drug to help control your cholesterol or to help control your blood pressure, there's technology that is invented that helps human beings with conditions, right? Being overweight is a condition.

Now, is there a school of thought that goes, hey, it's probably better that you lose weight, a natural way that supports all of the things that come along with that? Because you have to also remember, you know, bone density, muscle density, all those other things that come along with working out and eating a healthy diet.

Even eating a healthy diet, making the mental change and changing the neural pathways in your brain that change your eating habits, that's all part of a lifestyle correction or a lifestyle, let me not say correction, a lifestyle choice that you make when you get healthy. Normally all kinds of other things happen along with that. You start sleeping better. You start paying more attention to all different types of things when you're in that. And so a weight loss drug can't do those things for you.

However, being chronically overweight or getting to a point where you can't lose weight anymore is an issue of personal health. And if there are things that aid you in your journey for personal health, those things have value to me. I'll say this about Serena Williams. There's a different component to this with her, though. One component with this with Serena Williams is her body and her body type for a long time represented for a lot of people in popular. culture and embrace of the body of a certain type of woman. When my mama and them and other women from Louisiana that I know would see Serena Williams out there, a thick muscular sister.

I'm sorry to her husband to call her thick, but she's thick, thick muscular sister out there dominating on the tennis court and being beautiful at the same time, being beautiful. being beautiful and desired and being a fashion icon and being all of those things at the same time, they felt a special connection to Serena Williams, if you ask me. I think there are some people, and this is not fair to her at all, but there are some people that look at her current size or the way that she's using the weight loss drug as a rejection of that body and that aesthetic. Sure.

And I think that that's an underlying thing that's happening with the weight loss drugs because what you're seeing is there are some people, and I think we talked a little bit about this, who in the past were body positivity people. Correct. They're part of body positivity movement. And they were like, accept me as I am, accept me as I am. And the weight loss drugs, besides me, because I'm fucking over these weight loss drugs, left and right, send it, I throw the shit out of there, man.

I can fuck over a workout. I think I'll run five miles. I'll come back and I gain two pounds. Because I'm on that shit. That's me, nigga. Come back. That's me, nigga. Get back to it.

That's me. Get back to it. Okay? There's no calorie deficit that I cannot defeat. That's me, nigga. All right, but there are some people that look at this entire, they look at OZMPIC, GL-1s, as actually exposing the insincerity of people that in the past, I'm not saying I agree with this.

No, no, no, no, you're right. It's a conversation. That in the past were looking to, you know, talk about the different types of bodies and the different body styles that we should be accepting of. They're looking at those people as people who all they actually wanted to be was skinny. And it, it, they're looking at dings in a movement. Now, I'm not saying this is necessarily with Serena Williams,

but I do know there being a lot of women that I've talked to, particularly women that I've talked to that go, damn, man, Serena don't want to be thick no more. And that has an effect on them. I'm not saying that that's fair. Because if you listen to her, then it's about her life or her body, but I'm saying that they really feel that way. No, no, no, no.

Absolutely for sure. I think when people say that it's cheating on your fitness journey is because, and I know these people, there are people who don't suffer from some of these things that like you said, there are drugs used to better your life and

this is a drug that can be used in that way. But there are people, as there are with other drugs, who abuse it. And they do want to achieve a certain look. They do want to cut corners. They don't want to have to work out. They don't want to pay all this money for procedures or whatever it may be. So they take the drug and it's not necessarily intended for them.

I think we've even talked about that on this podcast because there's been a shortage of... That's gone. That's out. But there was. I'm saying we've talked about it. Yes, that's what I'm saying. We've talked about it. No, no, I'm not talking about it.

The primary uses as weight loss drugs. Right, but I'm saying that there was a time when people, because people were abusing it and using it so much, and the people who actually need it, could not get it. I think what's interesting here about Serena too is that, like, Jamila Jamil posted something on social media, and she always, I feel like when she posts something, it gets ripped apart for clickbait, and they always lose the context of what she's saying. I'm not saying she's right about every single thing. But in particular with this, I think her concern is,

well warranted because the beauty industry and beauty standards for women is just wild. I always say if I had a daughter, I would be so worried about her because of having to compare herself. We've always had it, right? There's always been commercials. There's been movies, music, whatever it may be, but not in this way. And with social media and with filters and then young girls going into doctor's offices wanting to look like not just a celebrity, but a certain filter, they're trying to uphold these unrealistic beauty standards, and the age for doing that is getting younger and younger and younger and they're finding different ways, whether it be a procedure, whether it be makeup, whether it be a drug to achieve that. And the danger in that is when you have somebody who's not a

celebrity or who doesn't have the money to do it, then they're trying to achieve this look, and it can be, they don't have the resources in place if there is a dangerous side effect or if they cut corners in trying to achieve it. And that's something that Jamila, we can put up her post for everyone to see because I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's long, but that's something that Jamila points out. There are very dangerous side effects with this drug,

and she's concerned about that people might use them and don't have the money that a Serena Williams has in place to achieve that. She's not saying she doesn't need it. She's just saying that somebody else might look at that and say, now I want to look just like her, and this is what Serena did. So I'm going to do exactly that without getting the proper things in place that Serena had. In addition to that, she points out, Serena's husband is invested in the medicine that she's using.

So there also is this thing of, well, their conversation around how authentic is the use of it when you're also just promoting your husband's business? Rivening, fascinating. Once again, we can have a conversation about why Serena Williams felt the need to even. even have this conversation with people in the first place is because people sniffed it out and they demanded answers from her from her. She didn't come out and say this at first. People were like she's on one of the drugs. That's what people say. You can't lose weight at all anyway without being on Ozzypic now anymore.

Now that is sad. So, so, you know, it is what it is. So I don't know that she necessarily had that much choice in coming forward with this. It was going to dog her and continue to be a part of it. But, you know, well, she's been speculated to have other procedures too. and she's not really come out about them. So I think it's interesting she came out with this one because her husband's

invested in it. Rachel, less charitable person in the world. This next one is a doozy. Donnie. Yeah, Jesse Smollett's got a new documentary on Netflix. It's called The Truth About Jesse Smollett. He's still rejecting claims

that the alleged hate crime was a hoax. Y'all watched it. What do you think? Okay. I watched it. All right. Okay, so here's the deal.

These are my takeaways. So if you guys watch a documentary, there is evidence that they, some of this evidence I had seen a little bit of it. Shout out to Jared Hill. There's evidence in the documentary that suggests that there are things that people were not paying attention to

as it relates to Jesse's case. They talk deeply about the, the corruption inside of the Chicago Police Department, which I feel like a lot of people knew about, but they go even further to talk about the specific misconduct cases against the people that handle Justice Smolet.

I'll give the documentary credit for this. The brothers are interviewed in the documentary. The police are interviewed in the documentary. Yeah, yeah, they got everybody. This was not a documentary that was without pushback on justy's claims of innocence or the claims of guilt against him.

This was, what I like to call an old school documentary to where it's not just coming from one side of it, right? I was impressed with the fervor that Justice Millett still defends himself with. I will say that. But there's nothing in the documentary that makes me believe

that the determination of the jury in his case was wrong. There's nothing in the documentary. So you believe, so you believe that he set it up. Okay. Yes. And while I always, always leave room to believe black people when they are talking about their issues with the state or, you know, being framed or set up or whatever, I always leave room for that. Always leave room for that.

You have to consider it. I look at it and I watched it if I'm just judging on the. the evidence, it still looks the same way to me. That's Tracy laugh. Okay. You know why it makes me, you know what, Rachel? You know why it makes you laugh? Because you don't have a heart because, like, you don't.

You don't have a heart. Like, I don't want, look, fuck it. You guys, I don't want Justice Smolett to have done this. I don't either. I think that Justice Smolett was a, everything that they said about him in the fucking thing, I think he was a fierce fighter for black people, for queer people. I think he was an incredible voice. I think he probably still is an incredible voice.

Haven't seen as much from him. I want, I don't want this to be true. Okay. I don't want it to be true. I don't either. I've said this before. When it happened, I posted about it. I believed him.

I was, I was very much, I did not want this to be true at all. I would have never watched this documentary if it wasn't for the purpose of this podcast. I watched it. And there were several things. I'm with you. I watched it and. Good dot. It was a great documentary, not a long watch.

Everybody should go out and watch it. I watched it, and I believed even more that he said this. I'll watch it. And I'm going to tell you why. Because there were, oh my God, that sounds like you. And let me tell you why. It's rubbing off on me. There were certain things in it that bothered me.

One thing they didn't include unless I missed it and I really wish they had. And him calling himself the gay Tupac. I don't think it was in there. I was waiting for it. I was waiting for it, too. Yeah. Now, that takes a lot to say that. Also, what does that mean?

Well, so hold on, hold on, hold on, I'm going to accuse me. The landlord lover is going to accuse me of trying to stick up for Jesse. But apparently, being called the gay Tupac is something that his family would call him. Keep it in the family. And so when he said, I am the gay Tupac, I think that he was referring to something that his family had called him. And keep it there. Because there was a whole thing, too, and I don't mean to go back of it, it seemed that, because when they showed, showed him performing that he did a performance a few days after.

I actually didn't have a problem with that. Yeah. I didn't think that that was about attention or anything like that. But I think it was it there where he called himself the gay Tupac. It was at the Tupac. So that was the moment. Yeah, that was at the Trubador. Yeah.

So he was filling himself at that point. Yeah. But him doing the concert didn't bother me at all. I think that that's what a professional would do if he was capable of singing. But, you know, they didn't constantly keep too high. Like, that's the kind of stuff that works against him. And I thought they purposely kept that out because there's just no, there's just no way. to look at that and then not look bad.

What got me was there were two things, and I think both of these things can be true. The Chicago Police Department can be corrupt and have a lot of bad actors. Jesse could also be lying about not setting this up. I think both of those things could happen. And what I didn't like was the correlation that they kept when they would show how bad

the Chicago Police Department has been in the past, particularly towards black men, I didn't like them comparing it to Laquan McDonald. That, I'm not saying, you know, God forgive me if this really did happen to Jesse, but what Laquan McDonald getting shot 16 times and them trying to cover that up and hide that is not what happened to you. And I understand that you were trying to show that there are injustices within the department and corruption.

And historically that has been the case. And black people have been protesting that department. and just the corruption in the city forever. But you using that for you, I felt was a little self-righteous, and I did not like that at all. I think what they were trying to show is the level that the police department

and the city of Chicago will go to. I get it. But to use that case, I just, I did not like that. The other thing was, if there was anything to me that helped him, it was the brothers. These brothers came to put on a show. The Nigerian brothers,

came to put on the show. When one of the brothers walked in with the cowboy hat... I'm going to have the hat on. And paused for dramatic effect when he was talking and took the hat off, looked dead into the camera.

Paused before he had to say what he had to say. I said, oh, these brothers are... If they're not, they might not be acting about what they did, but they're acting right now as they're sitting in. These brothers love a camera.

They love the attention. I forgot how they were doing all the rounds on conservative media. Fox News and all that. got that, or I did not know that they were coming out with a book, that they can't even remember the name of the title to. The brothers were to me, but they don't come across as smart. So to me, I don't see them being smart enough to work with the police officers and lie about it.

I think they just say it, just say what it is. Well, the documentary alleges that there were illegal weapons found in one of the brothers' homes and that the police were able to use them to. confess. But of course they were working with the police officers. And like I understood why they didn't get charged. Of course they were working with the police officers to go against Jesse Smollett, but I don't think they were working with him as far as they lied. And the other self-righteous thing, a part of it is they talk about this thing of the police department needed to look like heroes because of the corruption and the impression and the perception that people have of them in Chicago

and outside of it. Jesse Smallett's case was not the case to the hill to die on to prove that they were heroes. I'm just sorry. It wasn't, you and this case weren't big enough for that. Now, I'm not saying that they- The Justice Smallette case wasn't big enough? It was big enough in the attention that it got because- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not saying it wasn't a big, didn't get attention and going, attention to go on for weeks and weeks, especially because things kept changing. I'm just saying that incident alone, what has. happened to him. The alleged crime was not big enough to deem them that then that it didn't happen the way it said it did to now for everybody to change their perception of the Chicago Police Department to think that they were heroes and now they're not going to be looked at as corrupt as they did. I disagree. They allude to that that's why. If the Chicago Police Department would have found the perpetrators of this crime and those perpetrators would not have been in any way

connected to Jesse Smolett, I think people would have celebrated the Chicago Police Department. Yes, they would have. But what there's, but what Jesse's argument and his team are saying is that they, they planned this thing against him because they needed a win. They needed it to be, they needed to be looked at as heroes. And I just don't think that they would have chosen him as the one to do that with. That's why I think it's also self-righteous. I hope that he finds his peace and he is able to move on from this. But this to me did not help. Even at the end, there's this.

So the way they connect, one of the rays they connect to these brothers is they followed their route and then they lose them about a block away from where the crime happened, alleged crime happened to where they live. So they're following them from camera to camera to camera throughout Chicago. And there's this one clip that's in color. All the other camera shots are in videos

are in white and black, so you can see them. So they have everybody... They have everybody looking at this video. And, you know, part of their argument is that the police didn't follow up with witnesses. They didn't follow up on these videos. They weren't presenting the... Or the prosecution wasn't presenting the best case. But they show this video to everybody kind of involved with the case.

And they're like, are these brothers? You can see them in color. Is that a white man or a black man? Or they don't even ask. They just say, what do you see? did that guy look black or white to you? He looked black. He looked like a light.

He looked black. And one of the more damning parts of it is there is an eyewitness that saw one of the guys during the assault. And his gentleman that works in a hotel, the Sheraton Hotel. And he is one of the lynchpins of Jesse's testimony that the guys that attacked were white. They showed him the video of the two gentlemen that they say are white in color

and he goes, this is two African-American males. All the black people said it was black and all the nons were like white. Like these are two African-American males. So that just but look, a good documentary is supposed to cover both sides of an issue and raised doubt but also exist in the reality of what happened. I don't think that there's very many people who are going to watch

documentary and come away with their mind changed. If you thought Justice Smollett was innocent before the documentary, you're going to watch the documentary and go, this proves that he was innocent. If you thought that Justice Smolett had done this and that he was guilty of concocting this entire thing, you are going to leave this documentary thinking that exact same thing. What I will say is this, man, I know niggas who have done worse and become great people and done what I know

niggas have done worse so I don't think that all of this is happening this is over and I personally don't think that the industry the people the community should hold this against Justice Smolet for the rest of his career he is never ever ever ever ever in any way shape or form

or going to acquiesce or admit to the fact that he did this no he can't now he can't he's gone too far that's not going to happen if that's what you're looking for him that's not going to happen. So the reality is now, the question is, can we get over it? And by the way, I'll just say this.

I have joked about it. Yeah. I have joked about it. I have joked about it. I joked about it on Instagram one time. Jesse got mad at me, right? I joked about it on Instagram one time. We also got to be able to joke about it.

Like, this is now a cultural happening that is a part of black historical record. And it's not a funny thing. it's not a funny thing but when we look back on it the absurdity of the situation there's got to be some ability to talk about it and approach it in a way

that's not the life and death situation that it was in 2019 he might never get to that point because there's such high leverage for him right he might never get to that point right people were mad at me about the Meg uh who do thing

I'm playing y'all play it's jokes y'all we're joking we joking no one should be beholding this against Justice Millett now to me. No. The Justice Millett, I hope that Justice Millett is able to continue with his career. I hope to see him able to even go further. And I hope that this documentary is a catalyst and a conduit to him being able to do that.

But shut up, man. We didn't even talk about the news. We didn't talk about the news. Okay. See? See what I'm saying? That's not funny. It is, but it's not.

It is. But would you still be. No, I would not still be wearing the news, man. I wouldn't still be wearing the news. We got to go. You got to see, Rachel, see this? No, I wouldn't see. No, I wouldn't keep it around my neck.

And it was one thing when the, uh, it was one thing when the police was on. All right, that's it. It's fucked up. Yo, like, seriously, I'm being, I, I like. What, shut out. Rachel, shut up. Rachel, shut up.

No, the dude said the sandwich was pristine. Y'all, it's time to shut up. I'm being serious right now that I really do think I'm being serious that... It's a great documentary. Culturally, I don't think we should hold this against Jessica Millet

for the rest of his career. Just move on. Just Melissa is a talented guy and he is an asset culturally. Fucked up. He fucked. All right, that's it.

It's over. No more podcast. Actually, before we go, we got to get to Nina Turner. Senator Nina Turner joins us right now to talk about why she thinks that the retaliatory, partisan gerrymandering

from the Democratic. Democrats is not going to work. And while it's a bad strategy, she's not taught to us. We're going to talk to her about a wide-ranging group of issues that go into the identity of the Democrats and where she sees herself in that identity on the other side of this brain. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein, made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. Okay, we've covered it here. You guys have heard about it. There is a fight over gerrymandering in the United States political climate right now. And that affects you,

it affects how you vote, the fairness of your districts, all that stuff. Donald Trump called up Governor Abbott in Texas and asked him to find him five more seats. presumably to insulate himself from any type of consequences from his agenda in next year's midterm elections. In response to this, Democratic governors across the country have said that they will redistrict their states to make up for the power grab in Texas. Some of them, some people are saying this is fighting fire with fire, but there are some in the Democratic Party, there are some in the political sphere who don't think this is a good idea. One of them joins us today.

This is a member of the Democratic Party. A self-described Democratic Socialist was a Cleveland City Council member from 2006, 2008, a member of the Ohio Senate in 2008 until 2014, served as a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign. If I read off all of her accolades, we'd be here all day. Senator Nina Turner, I still call her. her Senator Nina Turner. It joins us today on higher learning. How are you doing? Thank you for joining us. Good. Great to be with you both. Man, I don't worry you getting that information.

And I am not a self-described democratic socialist. It's what it says. So it says right here. So that's what the guy put it in. Like whatever, whoever put that in, it's not my fault, Nina. But I feel like I read that too. Can you, yeah, can you say clear that out? But that's why y'all shouldn't be going to Wikipedia. Should I ask my team for my bio. You know anybody can write Wikipedia. So that is a misconception about you. You are not a self-described Democrats. Let's get it right right now.

I'm not a Democratic socialist. Hell, I'm barely a Democrat. There we go. What I am, though, is a hell-raising humanitarian. I believe in humanity. And I believe that because this is a hegemonic nation, that the wealth of this nation should be used to uplift the working-class people from all backgrounds in these United States of America.

So, I mean, I might have to go Shakespeare. What's in the name? A rose by any other name, smells just as sweet. But please, please, for the love of God. I'm asking your listeners, your viewers, do not judge me by that Wikipedia page. I don't know who put that together. Anybody can put together Wikipedia pages, so I want people to understand. Fair enough.

And we'll leave that in so that everyone that's listening can note the correction and you have the opportunity to define yourself rather than be defined by your Wikipedia page. And we apologize to you. Now, I would somebody's Wikipedia page about me. Right. Okay. You do not think the retaliatory redistricting is a good strategy or a good idea. for the Democrats, Kathy Hokel or Gavin Newsom, to endeavor into.

Why do you think that? Well, not at all, because partisan gerrymandering is never good. And so what these folks don't understand is that ultimately, ultimately, politicians should never be able to pick their constituents. It's called voting. It should always be the other way around. And when you are playing a dangerous game like this, and I'm not talking about gerrymandering in general.

I'm talking about partisan gerrymandering. ultimately the black community is going to bear the brunt of it at some point. So all of these people who think they're fighting fire with fire, I kind of lean to chairman Fred Hampton when he said, we do not fight fire with fire. We fight fire with water just in case people don't know who that is, a chairman from Chicago of the Black Panthers. Now, he didn't say that particularly for redistricting,

but I'm using that in the context. I actually voted on maps after the 2010 census. So that's another point that I want our viewers, our listeners to understand is that redrawing lines should happen every 10 years. It shouldn't happen every five years. We're mid-year right now. And you have a president who understands how to wield power and called up folks all out and open and told Texas, I need me some more seats because 2026 is coming. If these Democratic governors understood, see, they're not willing to go as far to be as rogue as President Donald J. Trump. And another point, even if they do these things, it's a losing battle because they're never going to get enough seats to outseat the Republicans in the United States of America in this climate with these lines.

So not only are you doing something that could up in the, oh, let me talk about the Voting Rights Act too, that could up in the Voting Rights Act, have a detrimental impact on all voters, but especially detrimental impact on black voters. You got Democrats not even taking that into consideration. They fight and the losing battle. Something that you said when you were talking about that, in California, it's going to be on the ballot. So the California citizens get the opportunity to decide if this is something that they want. Does that not make it different for you? That it's not where what's happened in Ohio, where they just unilaterally put that up, put up their redistricting map. In California, the citizens get to decide.

if they want this or not? Does that not change that for you? No, because they're being deceived. They're going to amass a whole campaign to try to convince voters that this is the right thing to do. Yeah, being one step removed from the actual governor or the legislature making the decision, I guess that's a little better. But I mean, if we jumping in the hole, if you're going halfway down, all the way down, it's of no consequence when it comes to the result of this. So I definitely hear your point. The voters will decide, but the voters are going to be manipulated. They're going to see a a whole lot of ads and nobody's going to sit them down and have a conversation that we're having

right now that while it may seem as though the Democrats are meeting brute force with brute force and I get it though. You know what I mean? Like I totally understand why that would be the initial reaction. And people want to see the Democrats fight back. They got a 26% approval rating. They lost for the first time the popular vote in 20 years. So they lost the electoral college. They lost the popular vote. They in desperation. are trying to hold on to something and make it seem like they're fighting. When they were in control, they could have gotten rid of the filibuster. When they were in control, they could have increased the federal minimum wage.

When they were in control, we could have had Medicare for All or some type of system in this country whereby health care was provided in a different way. And maybe President Donald J. Trump wouldn't be on his second tour duty. They did none of that. Now you want to pretend like you're doing something when most of the states are. controlled by Republicans, so they never going to be able to out partisan gerrymander the Republicans. They're in the situation now, though. Like, I think we could all agree about the Democrats inaction and things they haven't done before.

They're in the situation now. So being that President Trump is brazenly calling for adding seats to the Republican majority in the House via gerrymandering. if not retaliatory gerrymandering, what's the solution that Senator Turner sees? Partisan. We got to put the word, we got to put partisan in front of the

because of the lines is a natural. I need folks to understand. This happens every 10 years after the census. But what is happening is that there is going to be a guarantee of X number seats that Republicans will always win and X number seats that Democrats were always win. And so voters are going to be left. out of the cold for decades.

So the answer is, one, well, first of all, they shouldn't have never lost in the first place. That's number one, two, three, four, and five. But you're right there. We are. Yeah, we're here now. Number two is we have got to take this into the streets and do ultimate organizing and preparation on the state level

and also on the federal level of government to regain power in that way. we got a plan 26, 27, 28. We got to be doing that right now. Partisan gerrymandering is not going to help the situation because I want you guys to hear me clearly. They are not going to win this and they're not going to make it less bad. They're going to make it worse.

And the voting rights act, I ultimately care about that. The voting rights act, because they're going to set up precedents and I've talked to civil rights attorneys. What's going to happen is that these Democrats are going to set up precedents and it's going to happen through the court.

and voters are going to lose and we know that when that happens, the people who bear the brunt of that loss will be once again, per usual black people. So they're not going to be doing anything. Right. So let's go back to the specific

prescription, though, because I think what people are talking about is, all right, so when I say retaliatory redistricting and gerrymandering, of course it's partisan, right? So it's retaliatory, so it's partisan. So I think what people, what a lot of voters are people that I talk to.

The answer to the question that they want, and they want it, put honestly, very simply, is if President Trump is brazen enough and direct enough to call up a governor of a state and say, hey, like he tried to do in Georgia, find me this many ballots, he's saying, find me this many seats. And then retaliatory partisan gerrymandering isn't the answer for all the reasons. that you say, and I think these are reasons that people are raising, and I think that they are good reasons. What is exactly the thing that should happen? And it really can't be an amorphous answer. It can't be a philosophical answer. What then do you do? Because they are going to do what they are

going to do, which is whatever he says. So then in response to that, Barry, what should we do, the people who do not want to see the power grab by the right? We got to organize. That ship has sailed. That's what I'm trying to get people. They want to feel good. See, to have Governor Holcomb or, you know, Governor Pritzker and Governor Newsom say that they go, I see your partisan or retaliatory gerrymandering and I raise you. If people want to feel good superficially in the moment, then have that. But if people care about two, the three, the four, to five moves down the line,

they would not be in support of this. So do I have a genie in a bottle that I can rub and say, this is going to go away? No, there are going to be some pain points. But ultimately, we need to organize. That is concrete. We need to organize all over this country in preparation. We need a general strike in the United States of America

to let these folks know that when working class people refuse to make a move, the country will be shut down. We need to elect Democrats who have a spine. Because again, I know you're saying that that was then. This is not the reason why we are here is because Democrats lacked the intestinal fortitude or the ovarian or dacet to do what was necessary to prevent Mr. Donald J. Trump to have a second term. Now he has a term and he is letting them know how to use raw power. but simply saying, I see your gerrymander and I raise you is not going to change this immutable fact. Is that Republicans are in control of more states in the United States of America.

So it doesn't matter what Newsom does or Holcomb or Pritzker hiding out the Texas state legislature people who then went back to Texas. Don't even get me started on that. Because if you're going to roll like that, you got to stay. doubt the state, but I digress. There is nothing in terms of partisan gerrymandering that the Democrats have leveraged to do that is going to change the circumstance. So we need a new play.

I agree with you. There's so many things that you just said there. You know, with the Texas Democrats, is like they were going to have to go back and it was always going to be what it was because we've seen them leave the state before. But I think, because I so agree with everything you're saying. I think why someone like me likes what's happening, what Gavin Newsom is doing,

is because for so long, and we do it on this podcast, we sit and we talk about the traditional establishment when it comes to the Democrats and how they like to say, well, at least we're not like them. They like to do better. And for so long, we've been like, well, do more, do something. You know, it is in essence of fight fire with fire. But going back to what you were saying, if we need to strike, what does that look like? Because you posted something. You posted something, on your Instagram, which I found very interesting where you talked about how, and we'll put this up for our listeners and viewers to see, I don't want to read the whole thing, but you talk about how not, don't wait on black Americans to get in the street. And then you go on to say white liberals,

it's time for you all to protest, actually protest organized, be in the streets every day. I'm wondering, is that part of the strike of what you're talking about? Because then I wonder, well, how is, how can we depend on white liberals to be proactive when the redistricting doesn't doesn't necessarily direct or attack them as it does as black or brown people. How can we expect them to be out in the streets and be passionate on our behalf when we know, I guess, within us, people really don't act unless something directly impacts them? No, true that, that is human nature. You know, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and also Minister Michael Max, told us about the white liberal.

They both did in their own way, that the white liberal is the worst. And I'm paraphrasing them on this. they're not necessarily going to do anything on our behalf, but they are out there talking about how much they care about democracy, so they need to get in the streets for the sake of democracy, not for black people. You know, Bayard Russon once said that this country never has and never will do anything solely for the Negro, and he was making reference to the freedom budget, which I hope I can come on and talk to you both about at another time.

But you got to have a vision, and part of it has to be organizing and playing the long game. And I understand where you're coming from, Democrats haven't done anything, so do something. But there's something that they're going to waste millions of dollars on. This something is not going to get us anywhere. It's kind of like going around the block over and over again and expecting to be on a different street. That is what this partisan gerrymandering is going to do.

And again, the brunt of this, I care about all voters. So I want to be very clear. When I voted on a map in 2011 in the great state of Ohio, I voted against the map to the chagrin of my Democratic colleagues. And the reason why I voted against the map, because it guaranteed X number of seats for Republicans, meaning they weren't competitive. And X number of seats for Democrats, they weren't competitive. But the reason why Democrats were happy because they were happy with the X number of seats.

Because the people in those seats said, hey, we ain't got to worry. We're going to have this seat for life in the same way that the Republicans. I go with democracy and I rock with the voters deserve to be able to have a choice. And the more partisan lines we draw, the less likely it is for, either side to have to do anything to change the trajectory of this country because they're stuck and all they care about is their next original seat. So to quote, one of my dear friends, fan, your dear friend of yours, too, Michael Rinder, aka Killer Mike, we got to organize, we got to strategize, we got a plot plan, organized, strategize, and mobilize.

There is no easy answer to this. And that is what people are looking for. They look. looking for an easy, easy answer. There is none. And Gavin Newsom is not the savor. This man was sitting up there in California knocking down the tents of unhoused people. Yeah. You ain't nobody.

Right. So look, you know what? The interesting thing here is we have a big tent and a big cold. I actually don't agree. With what? With the fact that they shouldn't retaliatory gerrymandar. I actually don't agree. So there's two things. You don't care that it's going to impact the bone of rights.

Act, you don't care. I do care. I think that's inevitable anyway. I do care that it's going to impact the Voting Rights Act. This is what I would say. Number one, before I get into what I think, a couple of things, I think just by the seats, by the math, if they were able to max out what they were able to do on both sides with the seat, with the grabbing of seats, you'd probably see like a wash. It'd be very, it'd be, it'd be neutrality in terms of that. And the math says that. Just talking about the math, it'd be a wash in the seats. that the Democrats were able to, and you'd get back to where the voters could make decisions based upon President Trump's agenda.

Secondly, the general strike is precarious to me as an idea right now for a couple of reasons. Number one, you mentioned earlier that the Democrats have a 26% approval rating. So it doesn't seem likely to me that the organizing and the party's strength is there to actual affect a general strike. It doesn't seem like that's a possibility. And then secondly, Senator Turner, just to be real with you, We haven't really had a successful general strike in America since 1946. So it's been a long time since it's actually even been done with any, we've had strikes that have been very successful.

We've had things that smaller. But as far as a general strike in this type of contentious political climate, what do you say to people that say that's not a viable strategy to deal with this particular problem? But they think it's viable to keep on this course. I'm not talking about the Democrats leading the general strike. I'm talking about working class people. I'm talking about labor unions. You've got people like President Sean Fane of the UAW who's been talking about a general strike for the last two years.

You have leaders like Stacey Davis Gates of the Chicago Teachers Union, Sarah Nelson, all kinds of labor leaders across this country who would be the foundation point for leading a general strike. Now, most workers are not in labor unions, and that's why I'm talking about the workers. in class, not just organized labor, but working class. Sure. And just because it didn't work in the 40s doesn't mean that it's not going to work right now.

Democrats don't have the numbers. So Democrats literally don't have the numbers. And I'm simply stating the facts. Now, I wish y'all could pull up a map. One of my tweets that I put out three days ago, I lay out the map. They do not have the numbers. It would not be a wash. And all it would do is make the system worse than what it is.

Now, again, I want you both to know I am not. naive to that, to the visceral human fight fire with fire. I get it. But if we all going to get burned, we all going to get singed on this. And it's not going to be pretty ultimately. Now, I might feel a little differently. I might concede if the Democrats could win, even though I would still be pained by it because I am about democracy itself in good times and in bad times. but especially since they can't win it and you putting all this effort and getting people all amped up

when we could be doing something differently. And I am not talking on behalf of the Democrats. I'm talking on the behalf of the people in this country have been failed by both parties who deserve a whole lot better than what they get. Y'all know what I really want to do. I'm calling on the spirit of Fannie Lou Hamer when she and some of her colleagues

in Mississippi said, the hell with the Democratic Party. They treating black people like second-class citizens. The Republican Party ain't the party that it once was. And her and her contemporary started the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. That's pretty much where we are right now because both of these parties are felon folks and you see it in this. Yes, the brazenness of President Donald J. Trump, he wronged all day long and twice on Sundays. He is using raw power and Democrats are ill-equipped.

They don't know how to use raw power because, again, if they did, we wouldn't be in this situation. So real quick, I'll say this real quick. And I'm going to throw this out to you and you tell me if you disagree with this or agree with this. Absolute max gains with no commissions and no court limits. You look at Democrats if they could beat the commissions and the court limits. And we should say that a lot of the places where there are independent commissions that are set up to watch gerrymandering are in places that are traditionally held by the traditional liberal strongholds, right? But the absolute max gain. would be plus 20 or 25 seats by Democrats.

Absolute max gains. Republicans would be plus 15 to plus 20. They probably go further in Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, and erase some minority dishes in the deep south. That's, but that would be the max here that some people are conjecturing that they could get. If both maxed out simultaneously,

the house would stay close to being evenly split, which would then give people in competitive districts right now the opportunity to vote on the candidates that they have seen go along with Trump's agenda and then maybe generate gains for the Democrats or whatever. They would be able to vote the House and vote a majority for the Democrats or not for the Democrats evenly and fairly. You're saying that you don't think that this data is correct.

You don't think that the Democrats can, that they can get this back to a neutral situation where they can then send it to the voters and have them make a decision on their future next year. You don't think that that math is right. It's not going to happen that way. We all know that that's in a perfect world. What you just laid out is everything goes 100% right. And that is not going to happen because Trump is going to overpower these votes. The Democrat, I mean, I'm going to ask you both this. What, what heart have you seeing the Democratic Party writ large have? They don't have a heart for this. They didn't So this is a little bit.

So this is what I would say. Look, I left the Democratic Party some years ago. And the reason why I left it is because I don't believe in structure in terms of politics anymore. I just don't believe in the average person. That's what I believe. I believe in the person. So if you're listening to me right now, I don't believe in them. I believe in you.

That's what the deal is. However, in this situation, I'm a little bit confused at, and when I say confused, I mean it, at what the right way to go about this is, is because there's a situation. a math part of this, and then there's a philosophical part of this. The math part of this says, hey, if in fact they are going to do something and there's no way to stop them, we can't guilt them out of the power grab, right? There's no way to stop them. Donald Trump says, I want more power. He calls up Abbott. Abbott says, I'm going to give it to you. So the only thing you can do to keep things fair is where you have power to actually use it. And if you don't, hoping that there's

a ground swell or, which I'm not saying, it's not going to happen, I would. I, wouldn't know how to do that. You wouldn't know how to do that. If you're hoping that they're going to stop beating you up or that the people are going to get involved, the people who, if you think that the people have been manipulated into, oh, they will be manipulated. It's the voting for the gerrymandering in the spots where they can gerrymander. Well, then they've certainly already been manipulated by voting for Donald Trump who does not care about working people at all. So then I guess for me, I'm struggling with in this situation, what is showing fight?

Because we say that we want politicians on the left, be they Democrats, be they Democratic Socialists, be they whatever, to fight. And then when they do show some fight in using the power that they have, they're showing the wrong kind of fight. So I really don't know. I'm trying to understand what the best way to go about this is. Because it seems like the easiest thing to do is say, and excuse my language,

if you fuck me in Texas, I'll fuck you in California. And if you fuck me in Ohio, I'll fuck you in New York. And then we just let the chips fall where they may. You never know how a fight's going to end. It's nothing but blood and teeth after that. And, I mean, you just really made my point. Ultimately, the Voting Rights Act is in jeopardy. And ultimately, all this democracy that Democrats

was beaten Donald Trump up against head is in peril. But you lead me into a battle that we are ultimately going to lose. That to me, that's not, I want them to fight differently. I'm not saying don't fight, but this is not the one. They need a different strategy on how to get there. And in terms of California, California has to put it on the ballot. These other states don't legislatures.

Legislators vote on maps in most states, unless it's a state that you just They're talking about, yeah. States where they have commissions. But we vote, state, state level folks vote on the maps. And most of these states, they are already as partisan as they can get anyway. So you're going to get the same result. Wouldn't it be better to expend that energy and that capital on creating a longer-term plan that gets us to 2028 and beyond, instead of putting on a show?

These Democrats are playing in our face. And I mean the face of all these votes. and ultimately the people who are going to get hurt, all voters, but especially black voters, are always sacrificed on the altar when it comes to things like this. And this man to raise $6 million. This ain't nothing but a glorified fundraising campaign for Governor Gavin Newsom. So even if people agree with this stuff, at least they got to understand. They got to know, recognize the game and recognize when they being played by either side.

I respect the fact that you are not in either one of these parties because both of these parties are fell in the American people. I'm in the party, but not of it. and doing some thinking myself, y'all are hearing this for the first time. You know, I don't feel affiliated with this party at all. Yes, I ran as and Senator Nina Turner as a Democrat, but this party has totally failed to change the material conditions of the American working class people,

and that is why we are in the situation we are in, and I resented. And the same leaders who got us there, Representative Hakeem Jeffries or Senator Chuck Schumer and company, all of them, they are not going to be the leaders that are going to give us. us out of this mess. They lost the popular vote

for the first time in 20 years. They need to step aside and let some other folks leave who have a vision to provide provision. I am disgusted. I want you both to notice the level of suffering that people are going to have to go through. There will be a lot of collateral damage. This partisan gerrymandering

is only one part of it. And they were so arrogant, so arrogant to think they were going to win again. had they not been so arrogant and really got down deep with the people, we would not be in this situation. So I can't move forward without laying out this picture. So for those of your audience who want to see the Democrats fight back in this way,

I get it. I ain't passing no judgment. I understand you think they fight and fire with fire. For other folks who are willing to play chess and not checkers and think a little bit longer down the road and understand the consequences and repercussions that could happen once you get into, I see your gerrymandering,

I raise you a partisan gerrymander and the fact that we should not be changing lines mid-year. Yeah. But we are. Yeah, I think. Or I'm sorry, not mid-year, but mid-year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that it's, we know that perception is reality.

So I think both of the things, I agree with you about doing things differently, but because perception is reality, I think the perception of seeing a Gavin Newsom fight in this way is, will be powerful as far as voters when they come to the midterms in regards to saying, okay, I'm seeing something that's different. So I think that speaks volumes, but I agree with you.

There has to be a plan to do something differently. And in order to organize, you got to have a leader. And I'll want to follow up about, you know, maybe some of the things we saw in 2024, But when you're looking forward and you're playing chess, who is it that you have your eye on or you're watching and you're like, they could be a leader as we move into this 2028 election? Well, as I traveled a country and, you know, I was just recently in South Carolina. I was just with UAW workers, Region 9, shouting them out in upstate New York.

You know, and I'm going all over the country right now. It's not just one leader right now. People are not looking for one leader. What I say to people in the audiences that I speak to is that you are that one. Because it's not going to be one politician that's going to swoop in and save any of us. That has never happened in this country. The appearance of that, but it's never been just a one. This is going to take the bubbling up of the grassroots.

This is going to take bringing old school and new school together. What were those tenets of the civil rights movement that were? Because we've forgotten about that. The voting rights, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act did not come because some benevolent politician said it's time to make sure that black people are not treated like second-class citizens through law. It came because people got in the streets. When Fannie Lou Hamer challenged President Lyndon Baines Johnson, the man called a press conference. Here we have a civil rights leader who was a sharecropper who gave a testimony about how bigoted the Democratic Party

was. President Lyndon Baines Johnson was so shook by her. He called a fake press conference to try to stop her, and it didn't stop her. Matter of fact, it made her message spread wider. What's your lesson here, Senator Turner? The lesson is, is that if we want real deep-seated change that could last generations, it's going to bubble up from ordinary people, putting a little extra-only ordinary

so that extraordinary things can happen. These are extraordinary times, and we need extraordinary people rising up from faith-based, from activists in the streets, to people in suites, just people, everyday people, to say that we're sick and tired of being sick and tired, and we're not going to take this anymore. So it won't be the same kind of formula that we think.

It's not going to be some elected official that's going to come save us. We are going to have to come save us. And that's why people like me and my organization, we are somebody, is out there on the ground. I know you both know that myself, Tamika Mallory from Until Freedom, who's the first person that I called to launch a national boycott against Target, which is still going strong. Ain't no currently elected official did that.

We did that. And along with Pastor Jamal Brian, you know, in Atlanta, one of the most successful, you know, I mean, when I say successful, but people galvanized behind us. It would not, or with us, it wouldn't be successful without the people who say, you know what, you guess what, we ain't going to Target. I don't know when I'm going back to Target.

I may never go back to Target. Three of us did that. We started this national, and it's still going strong. So I'm using that as an example that we don't need somebody to come in from high. We just need everyday people who say that they're sick and tired of being sick and tired. They're not going to take it anymore. But still, leaders, the three of you are leading this. You know what I mean?

Like there's always a face or faces of it. And that's why I'm like, who do you think could be that person? I'm not naming any of them people out. So as it relates to what it is that we're talking about, I'll say this about that. is and so a target which has

cultivated an audience or a consumer base with black people for a very long time and reached out to them in different ways does something that is at cross purposes

to what a specific consumer base feels like they deserve which is they go they roll back their DEI they take project projects they take projects that they're doing

and they get rid of them they accelerate programs and all that stuff for black and brown people. And black people would just go, no, we go no. We are galvanized by people like yourself by Tamika, who is a fantastic, amazing, and insanely brave person. For Tamika and Maizan to hit the street wherever something is going on, like not to talk on Twitter or on Instagram like I do,

to actually go there and put their feet on the ground. I don't think we talk enough about that. And Pastor Bryant, black people say, no. We say we're not going to shop at a place that doesn't want us. I will say, though, some of these other issues are that they're not as sticky as that. Like, even the issue of democracy, it's not as sticky as that. Like, it's a little bit more precarious to get people out on the streets in the name of democracy. And I'll tell you why is they've already voted a lot of them.

They voted. And this, what's happening right now is Trump won the popular vote. America voted for this. This is what they voted for. they voted for it. They already made, they already had their say they voted. What a political organization like the Democrats, and it is a political organization, what they are trying to do or what if you read it in the best good face way that you could, what they are trying to do is lessen the amount of abuse that the process takes by people who are brazeningly abusing their power.

And when we talk about the power of the average person and we talk about the strength of the average person and the worker. I am there. I am there. UA.W. Sean Fane, those guys, they endorsed President Harris, right? They, oh, excuse me, Vice President Harris. I'm thinking about some. They endorse Vice President Harris. I bet Vice President Harris wasn't their dream candidate, right? They endorsed her. They endorsed her. They came out. They gave her a full-throated endorsement because I think that organizations like that and other organizations saw that there is or was, even if the difference is 5%, even if it's 10%, a difference between Vice President Harris and Donald Trump.

I do not think that this type of mid-district, mid-decade, mid-decade redistricting would be happening if she were president. I don't think that would be happening, right? So there is some difference between them. I say, I'll have to say this. the question is not one to me that requires language

that where we rededicate ourselves to our belief in people. We believe in people. The question is very simple. What do you do? It's, they're going to take seats and make sure that you cannot vote them out next year. They're going to take seats and make sure you can't do that. They're going to send the Gestapo

into American communities and kidnap people. They are going to ship people to other countries with no due process. They're going to do whatever they want. They're going to send the military into Chicago and New York and D.C. They're going to do all of these things. And then they're going to make sure that you can't vote them out after you get mad about them doing it. What are you going to do? And the-

What is happening? I mean, why is this happening? Why are we in this position? Okay, so to me there are myriad reasons. One reason is we did not have a candidate. When I say we, I mean the left, I mean people who are anti-authoritarianism, did not have a candidate that could particularly galvanize all and get solidarity through the entire base. And if I'm being honest with you, Senator Turner, and I admire you a great deal,

there are probably people listening to this right now that are saying, well, if Senator Turner and people like her would have stronger or would have more, strongly and full-throated supported Kamala Harris. I knew you're going to laugh when I said that. Then maybe there's a chance we wouldn't be in this position right now. What would you say to those people? You have a vice president who raised over a billion dollars who had every big name, most big names, like 99.9% of them under the sun, outraised Mr. Trump and still

couldn't beat him. They need to look in the mirror. Don't place the blame on people who vote. See, people don't owe votes to anybody. Nobody owe me their vote. It was my job to earn the vote. Now, you had people out there with Gaza saying, you've got to call this thing what it is.

It's a genocide or it's a deliberate killing of generations of folks. If you don't want to call it a genocide, we had the folks in Michigan and other parts of the country. We had the colleges, younger people all over the country, camping out and letting folks know not in our name, not with our money. And they totally ignore that. So why is the onus being put

on voters and other people like me to drag somebody across the line who raised over a billion dollars and had 99.9% of the big names and still could not beat a president that has been what? How many?

Infinite. What's a little infinite sign? It's infinite felonies. Which, by the way, I think the Democrats were wrong. I mean, let's talk about him specifically, but we know how reform in the legal system has always been a big deal for black people. So I'm not going to just label the man that.

I mean, he is that. But I don't want black folks to be dented by that. If people are supposed to get second chance, they're supposed to get a second chance. The bottom line is this. The Democrats fail and they have nobody else to blame but themselves. Why are we putting the blames on voters? Most voters didn't show up because they say, they show up for what? Nothing is working.

Biden was in office, Bidenomics, people were suffering. You guys remember that? I'm sure you talked to those people. Absolutely. I can't afford my groceries. What did Democrats say?

But Bidenomics, everything is working. When somebody tell you, they're suffering, you got to sit down and listen to them. You can't tell them. Well, we got the best economy compared to anybody else in the world. Well, big mamas and big popas,

they ain't talking about the economy in some other country. They're talking about the economy in their own household. So Democrats turned their backs. on working class people, which is this is the reason why they're in the situation. It always boggles me. I mean, every time I ran, I felt like I had to earn the vote.

I can't tell the person that didn't vote why you didn't vote. I mean, there's why people don't vote, but I'm not blaming. I think that is a lazy way out when people blame voters for the fact that a candidate did not win. And then you got what Senator, former secretary Hillary Clinton saying that if Trump can you know, broker peace between Russia and Ukraine that she would support the man getting the Nobel Peace Prize. So which is it? You see, you're right. You know, all these things, I never called him now.

But you understand what I'm saying? I understand. I understand it. Let me be crystal clear in what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. I personally believe that Trump and the right are able to get cultural issues to be more important than the issues of a the average American, right? Absolutely.

And I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday. And they were talking about everything that Donald Trump promised people, and people believe these promises. Donald Trump said, I'm going to end the war in Ukraine in the first week. Donald Trump said, I'm going to lower grocery prices. I'm going to do all of this stuff. And it was incumbent upon the people that he was talking to when he was in interviews to say, how?

How? The war in Ukraine. There are three things that the Ukrainians want. They want security guarantees. They want their land back, and maybe they want NATO membership. Those things are diametrically opposed to the things that the Russians want. The Russians want no security guarantees. The Russians want Ukraine never to be in NATO, and they want to keep the territory that they've already taken.

So when you're talking to somebody and the president tells you he's going to do that, you have to look at the president and say, well, how? What are you going to do? It's really not about issues like that. What it's about is the fact that the economic strife that you're going to, through that that's the fault of undocumented people, that the fact that you don't enjoy America anymore is the fact that it's D-I, D-I, it's CRT. It's all of these things that are really making your life harder, and that has to do with

the people that you don't want to share your community with. And he's able to whip people up and do that. He won on those things. A lot of those things. He won on those things. He won. He was able to create the America. He won it and won.

The question is now, and we could talk about the Democrats all we want. but while we're talking about the Democrats and their failure and their folly, we have been critical of Hakeem Jeffries. We've been critical of Cory Brooker. We've been critical of Schumer. We've been critical of all of the do-nothing Democrats that are there. And while we're doing it, one political wing of the country is taking a sledge hammer to the country. And we have got to stop them.

And I understand that we might not have the right people. Maybe it's you. It's Mom Dani. Maybe it's Talarico. Maybe in order to do that, we have to get the old brass of the Democrats out. And I'm willing to help you sweep them out the door. I am willing to, willing to help you sweep them out the door. However, there are things that are happening right now.

And we have to stop those things from happening. And I'm not just talking about like the big glossy political situations or issues. I'm talking about the DOJ getting out of litigation in Alabama that was trying to fix the water supply of black people in Alabama. They're drinking wastewater. I'm talking about environmental justice. I'm talking about things that are material to people's lives. That the Democrats actually had done, if I'm going to shoot them some bail, right?

That Trump is undoing. I'm talking about a lot of things that with even all of the inert action that you might say legacy corporate Democrats are capable of, right? There are still things where they serve a community that the Republicans, Lib, the maguany of the Republicans, undid right away. Undid right away. The Justice 40 Initiative, environmental justice, don't need that. It's a woke overreach. All of these things right away.

They undo them right away. And then they do more. So I'm going to grant to everyone everywhere that the Democrats are a failed, broken party. I'm going to grant that. Right now, some guy sitting in some place is trying to strip away every basic right that the 14th Amendment, that the Fifth Amendment, that all of these amendments guarantee you, what do we do to stop him right now,

other than playing the blame game about elections that we cannot get back. They knew, but they knew. They said that this man was a threat, but they didn't comport themselves like he was. And now all of the things that you enumerated and many more that the three of us could enumerate is happening. We cannot disconnect from that.

I understand what you're saying about how do we move forward, but you cannot move forward without understanding how we got here. We can't just brush that under the rug. They are the reason why so many people are catching hell right now and why people who are in the humanitarian lane should be outraged by this. You know, we barely say anything about the Congo. You know, so Gaza is the canary in the coal mine, but it's the same energy, the same people who don't care about babies and mothers and fathers over in the Congo, I mean, Congo or the Gaza don't care about the mamas and the daddies and the babies over here. One of every two children in my city of Cleveland live in poverty.

The Democrats passed the child enhanced tax credit and then didn't make it permanent. So the same babies that got lifted out of poverty got pushed right back down. We can't talk about moving forward to we understand how we got here. So the answers that I am giving may not please the vast majority of the people who are listening because there is no quick fix. But one must never build their shield on the battlefield. That's an African proverb. How do we plan for right now and moving into the future? And those two things go together.

And all Sister Senator Turner is saying that just saying, I see your partisan gerrymander and I raise you. is not going to get us where we need to be. Fair enough. And all of those issues that both of you have laid out. It's empty. It may make you feel good. It's like getting high. Not that I know personally.

I was about to say, I was about to say, now, I know you be helping, I know you be hanging out with Mike. So I was about, I was about, I was about to say, Senator. But also what I heard is at a certain point,

and depending on what drug it is, you start to chase the high. Yeah. That is what is happening right now. People are chasing the high, and they're so hungry for to do nothing Democrats to do something that they'll take this knowing that it is an illusion. It is, look at the man or the woman behind the curtain. They are doing absolutely nothing but playing in our face and the harm that is going to be done for this temporary game. The harm is worse than the temporary game.

Last question. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Last question for me. Sorry, my microphone keeps falling down. I know we can't see into the future, but history has predictive value. So let's just say, and I agree with you about the do nothing Democrats and wanting to do something. And let's say the voices get louder and the people are demanding, fighting against the current administration and fighting for what they want and are demanding. a leader in place or an elected official for this 2028 election to represent them and not the party. But let's say it takes time, as you said. It's not something that's not going to change quickly. And we're back here for the next election with the same two parties and a do nothing Democrat that is in place to be, is put up by the establishment because I saw something where you were talking about

how the pendulum keeps swinging. And it's just, and this. the Democrats keep pushing people off the ballot who don't fit into the person that they want to lift up for the establishment, like I keep saying. So let's just say we're back there again. I kind of want to ask it about Kamala Harris because she kind of left the door open and I don't know.

But I'll use say Kamala Harris or anybody from that group. Do you think, would you still encourage voters? I'm trying to figure out how to frame the question as I propped it up. What if we're back in that place? Do we not vote? Do we let a JD Vance or whoever they put up continue on or do more damage that they're already doing in this country? Or do we get behind and then demand and make our voices loud once we get that leader in? Because it could be a Kamala Harris.

And she's left that door open. I don't know she's done enough to disassociate herself from the Biden administration. But it could be one of the other do nothing Democrats that we've named. what do we do then? Most likely, well, it's going to be up to the people to make a decision ultimately, I mean,

and voting you in and then I need to get some promises from you before you get in. Because once I get you in, then I'm making a demand. Oh, no, I need my demands met or at least a promise to meet my demands

before I get you in because after you get in, you're not going to do anything in the first place. The American people have got to say that they're tired of going back and forth between both of these parties. They have to summon

and the courage. I mean, when I name Fannie Hamer, I mean that sincerely. I mean, they got so fed up and these are poor, very poor, extraordinarily poor, sharecroppers and the black and white folks in Mississippi who got together to start that party and challenge President Lyndon Baines Johnson.

We got more technology. We can connect with people all over the world in a matter of seconds. And you mean to tell me we can't use that template to make something shake and rock? We're going to make excuses for accepting the same do-nothing folks? Had the Democrats increased the federal minimum wage that's been $7.25 when President Biden and Vice President Harris had control of both chambers, we might not have been here. You're right, it's hard to predict the future. I'm just throwing it out. We might not have been here. Had they passed the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, we might not have been

here. Had they done more to sure up the ability of workers to be able to organize on their jobs, we might not be here. Now, I will give the Biden administration credit for the National Labor Relations Board because they did that thing, even though President Trump came in there and dismantled that. But there were some things, had they done away with the filibuster? We might not be here. Had they added more Supreme Court justices to the Supreme Court of the United States of America, which that number is not immutable. It has been higher and it has been lower history. Then we just might not be here. So what I saw, say to the American people is to stop letting these politicians play in our face, even though you might like some of us, liking us and making sure that we change conditions are two different things. What did Brother Frederick

Douglas say, power conceives nothing without a demand? We got to start making some demands. We got to take some old school and some new school, mix that thing all up together, and do a new thing. Or otherwise, as you just laid up, we will be faced with the same playing our face, Democrats who

are not going to do much. They are neol liberals. They believe in the system as it is. It's just they're going to be slicker than Donald J. Trump. See, the one thing about President Donald Jay Trump, he liked the wolf. He's going to do it in your face. I think it was Minister Michael Max who said the difference between the north

and the south is the difference between the fox and the wolf. We could take that analogy and overlay it to the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans because they answer to the same power brokers. They got the same people yanking their chains. They answer to owner-doners.

say one last thing. I'm going to give you the last word. You've been so generous with your time. And I think people are just... But we got to do this again. We got to do this again. You got to come out here and talk to us a little bit more. We made a major acquaintance a couple of weeks ago.

And, you know, we've been locked in. So I'll say this. A couple of things. We've criticized the Democrats. The Democrats haven't acted the way that we wanted to act. But even you bring up the child tax credit, you bring up other things. We could talk about serious. things that happened, you just mentioned some of the labor stuff under the Biden administration,

that the right just is not going to care about. They're not going to care about environmental justice for black children. They're not going to care about that type of stuff. As a matter of fact, not only are they not going to care about it. They are going to use it as a sacrificial lamb in order to feed red meat to their base. So when you cancel environmental justice for black children or for black neighborhoods, that's a stat. That's like a dunk or three-pointer. Your base, likes that. They like when you change the face of education. They like when you call duly elected mayors in Baltimore and in Birmingham or duly elected governors. They like when you call them DEI hires and whatever. They like that. That's what they like. So the things that actually

subjugate you, they enjoy them. They're a cultural war victory for them. And that just doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist on the other side. That we have to be honest about it. It just doesn't exist on the other side. It's not the same way. It just doesn't exist, right? So it's so we have to be real about that. And then secondly, almost everything else that you said, the filibuster, the Supreme Court, all of those things come with a similar fight to the gerrymandering in that it's something that you do and you don't know how far the other side is going to take it. And the Democrats in the past have been unwilling to have those fights. They've been unwilling to say, we're going to put 12 on the Supreme Court.

They have been unwilling to say, we're going to put 15 on the Supreme Court. They've been unwilling to say, we're going to get rid of the filibuster. We're going to get rid of the mattresses over this stuff. And however it shakes out in the wash, it's however it shakes off in the wash.

Because you can make the argument that the reason why you keep the filibuster is because you're not really confident in your electorate. And then if you get rid of the filibuster and Trump wins, now you're really screwed. So they're afraid of what the worst possible scenario is in doing some of these things.

And so they don't do them. With the gerrymandering, they're not doing that. They're legitimately not doing that. They're legitimately saying, okay, you want to do this, so we're going to add five seats here. You want to do this, so we're going to add five. These fights aren't that different. And I do think, the last thing I'll say, I do think that we're getting into a situation with everything that we're talking about when we look at the best, man,

Somewhere right now, there's an undocumented person and there is a van rolling up unmarked. They're going to snatch them off the street. Somewhere right now, there's a black kid walking through Chicago or D.C. or somewhere, and there is a militarized police officer that is looking, there's a hammer looking for a nail. That person is less safe. Somewhere there's a woman right now who is carrying the baby of her abuser and must carry that child to turn. and give birth to that child because of the right. We don't have time to litigate the past

when we're fighting for those people right now. I just don't think we do. I think what we have to do right now is put their needs, their lives, and their situations first right now. And if that means getting rid of Hakeem Jeffries and replacing him with Nina Turner, I'm with it.

I'm like if that's what that means, if that means getting rid of Chuck Schumer and replacing, If that means all of these guys are gone, I am so with you, Senator Turner. But we have to put people's lives first. And the only way we do that right now is to stop the amount of damage that the right can do to them.

And that's all I'm saying. I'll give you the last word. I get it. Listen, I tell you what, we need to do this again. We're going to see. Let's see how this works. I guarantee you that it's not going to work the way that you just laid it out. I totally understand what you're saying.

And I respect everything that you just said. in terms of some of those examples that you gave, some of those examples were happening in real time, with the exception of the abortion example that you gave, President Barack Obama was called the Deporter-in-Chief. He deported more people than the president in history so far. Now, certainly President Donald J. Trump is trying to see his deportations and raise his deportations.

He didn't have unmarked. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? You know, one of my mentors, who was a councilwoman here in Cleveland, Fannie M. Lewis used to say, it doesn't matter if you meant to kill me by accident on purpose, dead is dead. So he did it in a more fashionable, genteel way.

Those who care about the issue itself. I ain't talk about how it's done. Those who care about the issue are going to have to admit that President Barack Obama was, in fact, the deporter-in-chief. Now, we need to do something about our immigration laws. The way this president is doing is not right,

but several congresses and several presidents, both Democrats and Republicans, have failed We have to reckon See, my opinion Before we get to where we're going We got to reckon with where we have been That is an immutable fact But I hear everything that you're saying

My last point on all of this Is that East Palestine, Ohio Which is about an hour and 30 minutes away from Cleveland You both probably remember when no force The railroad Chemical spewing everywhere, in those people's community. Overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly working class.

In 2020, had voted for President Donald J. Trump, certainly in 2024. I'm sure they did the same thing. You had Democrats on TV saying that those people got what they deserve because of who they voted for. Now, I went down to East Palestine, Ohio. I didn't have to go down there, but I went down there to see them. And the most shocking thing to them was not that I'm a black woman. The most shocking thing was that a Democrat came to see them. What is your message here?

is that when people are suffering disproportionately and to the level that what happened to those people, their water, their food, poison, their homes, their businesses, businesses have to shut down. Who cares? Who they voted for? What a callous thing to say. It's the same thing with the basement full of deplorables or whatever

Secretary Clinton said at the time. We are so partisan right now that we have lost our ability to care one for a job. another. And that is how the power class, the ruling class, wants it. They want us at each other's throats. They want to blame diversity, equity, inclusion, because your neighbor can't afford their eggs or their gas. They want to blame a transgender sister or brother for something that has nothing to do with them. And I'm just using examples and had everything to do with a rig system. So my closing point, and I really got to go. I got another end by my team to heal me. And I got to come back

can do this with you two beautiful people again. James Baldwin once said, and he was one of the greatest novelist of the 20th century, he said, not everything that his face can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is space. So no matter where the three of us are on the very riveting and timely issues that we're talking about, and even the audience may agree, may disagree, hopefully one thing that we do know is that not everything that is space can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is space.

And that's really what our conversation was about to say, how to face what needs to be changed. Absolutely. We're right there. We appreciate your time. Thank you. And by the way, you have an open,

an open invitation to come back. Anytime you want, particularly to advance the causes and the people first message and mission that you have. Okay? Thanks. We might not always agree on every single thing, but I do agree and promote the existence of you.

and who you are and how you look at the world. So invited to come back whenever you want to. Thank you. Thank you both so much. And back at you. And I really appreciate you. And until next time. All right.

Bye-bye. Tell you, think you have so off. We do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathin Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.