Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Piers Morgan Is Upset and Alicia Garza on How to Be Hopeful in a Time of Social Change

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by activist and author Alicia Garza to discuss how she stays hopeful, the Black mandate for the Biden-Harris administration, Stacey Dash, and what she would consider a win for Black people (14:30). Then Van and Rachel talk more about about Stacey Dash’s apology (47:00), Piers Morgan walking out on ‘Good Morning Britain’ (58:00), and one year of COVID-19 (1:08:00), before recapping 'The Bachelor' and answering mailbag questions (1:15:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? It is I, Van Lathan. And it's me, Rachel Lindsay. Rich, how are you doing? How are things? Good. Feel good.

Ending out the week, strong. Yeah. You good? You good? Yeah, no, I'm good. I've been losing weight, right? And I've been eating differently. Is it the shot?

No, it's not the shot. That it's not the shot at all. Because I've been meaning a follow-up. with you and how you're feeling. Any side effects? After the first shot of the vaccine? No, no side effects. It was like a sore shoulder,

but that was pretty much it. Which one did you get? Pfizer. Pfizer. Pfizer is the one I have. But no, it's cool. But I've been losing weight. This is great.

Yeah, it's been good. So I've been, I've been meal prepping. Okay. Yeah, you've been, you'll be mill prepping as well? Yeah, yeah. So what I'll do, what you do?

You got to a little. These little containers. I got those same containers. You got them from Target? They had a little black meal prep containers. It makes you feel like you're really doing something. It does. It does.

So what I've been doing is I've been frying up some chicken breast, olive oil, you know, a little light of, and then put them in the oven and then having the chicken breast with salad throughout the week. And I've been eating the salads. They have a lot of the spinach. And then the baby green salad. Like the spring salad mix, right? Yeah. My body is not handling the fiber well.

Oh. Do we need to take a break now? It's pretty soon. Okay. It's like, my body's like, hey, there's a lot of fiber. You went from not as much fiber to fiber overload. And, you know, sometimes, you know, me and Bozeman, because he's a puppy, he's going through like the same thing.

Sometimes we're like, yo, bro. This is going. It's like, it's just different. It's different. How does your body react to new and different food regimens? Do you have a cast iron stomach?

I do. You do have it? What was the last time you vomited? Oh my God. I can't even remember. And if I did, it's probably because I drank too much, not because I was sick to my stomach over something.

So you, alcoholism is what you're saying. Okay. Wow. Let's not go there. I'm asking. I'm just saying I might have had too much a drink. I can't even remember the last time I was sick to my stomach. It's been years.

I think I told this story on the podcast the last time I vomited. I can remember. Wait, the one where you did it at the house? Where it was the, it was the, I had the ocean water from Sonic. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, that was like what? Like 20 years ago?

That was 2004 is the last time I vomited. Okay, no, it's definitely been since I. I haven't vomited since election day 2004. Okay, but why are we talking about vomiting? Because I'm, because I'm trying new and different foods, and I'm wondering what I should be able to expect from my body. Because at this point, you know, it's just cleaning you out. It's just cleaning you out.

Kalika's getting annoyed. Like, I came in here, you think I'm lying. I came in here. I had gone for a long walk. I went, it's something interesting I went for a walk and I randomly ran into a couple of friends of mine. Okay.

And then we walked around for a little. I was like, almost like we have us regular society. So I went for a long walk. Like, I think it was like, I don't know, five mile walk I went for earlier today. And when I came back home, I came in here and she was

actually on the Zoom. And she goes, hey, stop. Go fix the bathroom. Seriously, go fix the guest bathroom and make a doctor's appointment. Something's wrong. But I'm feeling good. I feel better because I'm eating apples. Do you ever eat apples?

It's been a while, but that's good. In my meal prep today, I had two legs and broccoli. Two legs and broccoli. Okay. Yeah, steamed broccoli. I know, I know. Now, when you steam the broccoli, like, how do you cook it? so I put a little bit of water in a pot

I season the water and then I wait until it gets to boiling and then I throw the broccoli in and then I shake it I shake the pot so all the seasoning the steam of it the seasoning gets everywhere then I drain out that water

and I got my broccoli you want to know my my chicken breast method to make the juiciest chicken breasts? I don't like white meat, but go ahead. That's not true. Van, just keep going. I heard it as soon as it came out of my mouth, okay?

We know, but we know that's, we know that's not the case. So, so I, you know that's not a thing. I can't believe you just said that lie. I heard it as soon as I said it. Brian is, is a white meat? I would say he's like What is the word they say white passing This is what they say now

Oh Jesus Christ We just went back to the 40s The 30s No But give everybody your tip Because that's my issue with With the breast Is that it dries out

So that's why I don't like white meat So go ahead I mean obviously the thighs are better But this is what you do with breast Take the breast You get a good season And for my seasonings, I like a little garlic salt. Okay.

A little garlic salt. It's a little bit of seasonal salt. Then I come back with a little lemon pepper. I like a little, zest. You know what I mean? I do too. A little zest sometimes slosh around and some other stuff. Well, first thing you do is you wash chicken breast, then you pat dry.

Want it to be dry, right? Season both sides, okay? But you want it to be like a nice crust. You want a little crust there, a little bit of, you want it to seal. So then I got a cast iron skillet. That's what I cook in. Turn a cast iron skillet, medium high. Okay.

Between the six and the five. This is what I do. You put the chicken breast in there. Yeah. Is there olive oil, avocado oil in? There's olive oil inside of it. I'm sorry, I forgot that step. That's my fault.

You put the olive oil in salad. You wait to the olive oil starts smoking just a little bit. That's how you know it's ready to cook, okay? You put the chicken breast in there. Sear it. You turn the chicken breast over. You're seared. Meanwhile, you've preheated your oven to 400.

You take the chicken breast. You don't act like you know my method. I do this with pork chops. Keep going. Or steak sometimes. Disgusting. Pork chop. Discussing to eat a big slab or hog like that.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Go ahead. That's no shame. You take the... You take it in there, you put it in there, and then you cook it until the center is 160 degrees with your food thermometer. Okay, can I ask you about the food thermometer? Because I struggle with this.

Okay, tell me about it. Like, do you pull out the whatever, the container it's in, and then stick the thermometer in? Or do you stick it in while it's in the other? because it always says it's too high for me. Like I never get the temperature right. I'm done with the thermometer. Well, here's the thing.

In my 40 years, the pull-out method has been the most successful method for me. That's all I'll say. I've used it several different times, and it's never, I've never been steered wrong with the pull-out method. Okay?

So what I would say is, look, here's the thing with the food thermometer. So I do the chicken breast two skillets at a time. They call me Johnny double skillets is what they call me. I wish to be it. And so I have the two skillets of chicken breasts. And sometimes you start one before the other. So I say this to say that if you take the food thermometer out

and put it in another chicken breast and it's not the same temperature, it'll go down. So it'll go down. It gives you an accurate reading, right? Because it goes up to 160. You take it out. You put it in a other day. It might be 155, whatever, whatever.

And 155 to 160 is cool. But I tell you what, after you've made your chick, and I only reheat, I don't reheat in the microwave anymore. I reheat nothing in the microwave. Nothing. Okay. I only reheat things in El Air Flyer. You know what I'm saying?

Because the air fryer is amazing. Now put it in there, boom, it's good. It's good. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's juicy, it's supple chicken breast every single time. You're going to try it now. I'll give it a try. I'm not a big chicken breast person, but I'll give it a try. I'll report back to you. I'll let you know.

I'm a cooking in one skillet, though. Only one skillet, though. When does Brian get out to L.A. to move here, finally? First week in April. Okay. All right. All right. Who does the cooking in the house? We both do. You guys both do? And I'm picky.

So we kind of cook separately. Like I'll usually, if it's anything, I cook breakfast and dinner and Brian will make his own lunch. You're going to make his own lunch. Get out there making our own lunch. I'll talk to the Washington Post about you. Did I give you permission to talk to the Washington Post? You didn't tell me not to.

Okay. So here's the thing. I want the thought warrior nation to, no, no nation. The Thought Warrior community. No nation. Please don't come at me, guys. I didn't mean to put nation in it. Okay?

I did not mean to put nation. She's going to be like, he's saying that he's a nation. Like, you know, no, didn't mean put nation. So they called and they asked me. And when they, when she sent the request, I put it in the group text and then.

And I didn't respond. You didn't respond, which I thought that I had a green light. Because I thought it was something good. So we assumed. All right. And then they called, and we talked about this yesterday, and they were asking questions, Rachel,

you're a hot topic in these media spaces. What does that feel like to have people so interested in your life and your thoughts and the goings on of Rachel Lindsay? I think it's more concerning that I have people like you willing to talk to the media on my behalf. That's more concerning. No, I mean, I'm so, I don't really pay attention to it. You know, I keep a healthy distance away from it.

Like, I'm aware of what's going on, but I'm not entrenched in it. And I think that's how I keep my sanity. I don't look at it like, you know, I don't talk about it like that. You know, like, you know how you get on here and you're like, so-and-so is my friend. I know so-and-so you love to do that kind of stuff. I don't do that. or I love how you choose that. I also share my mental health journey with people.

I do good stuff. But you all, you know what? I didn't say it. You know what you are? You're a negative Nelly. Wow. Because I said, because I just stated a fact that you do name drop,

is that negative or is that truth? You're a negative country grammar. I've never heard anybody praise it like that before. I'd rather, I know exactly, I got it. I got it. And I'd rather just be negative Nelly. No, your negative country grammar. That's the new one.

Negative EI. What's your favorite Nelly song? Oof. What's the best Nelly? If you want to go and take a ride with me. Oh, that's up there. That's hot. But that's not the title of it.

I can't. It's Ride with me. Ride with me. Yeah. So ride with me is your favorite Nelly song. You can just, you know a lot about people. You know what my favorite Nelly song is, is actually not a Nelly song is actually not a Nelly.

Nelly song is a song Nelly's featured on. Oh, which one? Where to party at. Nelly and Jagged Edge. Oh, Nellie sure is in that. So I had to think about that for a second. You've never heard what a party at? No, I have.

I just was like, oh, is Nellie featured in it? Oh, yeah, he sure is. That's your favorite one. Sometimes I'm talking about around 3.30s. Never go do. They're kind of a viz. I expected you to say like tip drill. Tip drill.

I like grills, too. Grills is good. Country grammar is good. E.I is good. Man, give nearly his respect, man. We don't do that enough. Okay, listen, we have a treat for you guys today. Yes. We have

just a dynamite mover and shaker, an activist, an author, a podcast host, Alicia Garza, one of the founding members of Black Lives Matter, who has a brand new book out and is going to talk to us about her vision for the empowerment, upliftment,

and social progress of Black America. How she sees it, how she wants it, and what she thinks about her place in this movement. She's been so intramental for these last couple of years. So we are going to get to an interview with Alicia Garza right after we take a break.

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All right, we are honored and joined to be, oh, she's going to hate when I say this, to be joined by one of the most important black Americans walking the face of the earth right now. I think that's fair to say. Rachel, do you agree with that? I agree with that. Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Yeah, one of my homies that does so many big things that you stop congratulating them because it's like I'm sick of it. You know what I mean? I learned we're joined by Alicia Garza today. How are you doing? I am so happy to be here with y'all. Seriously, this is an honor. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Same for us. Yeah. Now, my first question is one that I ask people that are on the front lines and that do a lot of work. Before we even go into your history, what you have going on right now, like, how are you doing? How are you maintaining and existing during this time? You know, I'm doing. I am doing. I feel blessed.

Honestly, I have a roof. I have food. I have love in my life, right? I mean, those are all the most important things. And I'm feeling hopeful. I was also feeling hungry. I was just shoving a tuna salad down my throat before. Before we got into the things, you know, these days I can make it through, you know, several hours without having my first meal.

So I'm trying to work on that. But I'm feeling good. I'm feeling hopeful. I'm feeling proud. I feel like this is a moment where we're taking stock, right? It's like a full year since we learned that the whole world was going into lockdown. And we made it. So today I'm feeling like we do hard things and we have survived 100% of the hard things that we do.

And for that, I'm feeling grateful and blessed. Can I ask you too? What else makes you feel hopeful? Because sometimes I feel like we get into this. this a lot and I always say, Van and I might not be the most optimistic people. But just like you coming in and you do so much and you're in the trenches with everything, yet through all of it, you can still say, I feel hopeful. So even outside of just like love and life and health and everything, when it comes to us as black folks, what makes you feel hopeful for us moving forward?

The fact that we're having these conversations, I mean, look, seven, eight years ago, we were having very different conversations. And the quality and the character and the nature of our discussions are changing and the way we be together is changing. And it's not comfortable. You know, I'm not trying to say it's puppies and flowers and bunnies.

It's not. But look, more people than ever in my lifetime are talking about racism. I just read yesterday, and I don't want to give commentary on this, but I just read, right, Goldman Sachs was like, we given $10 billion to black women? And I was like, this is really fascinating.

I mean, besides all the details of the thing, at what point in your lifetime, have you ever heard Goldman Sachs saying, we're going to give $10 billion to black women? Also, why do you have $10 billion? We'll come back to that. Right, yeah. But that's why I'm feeling hopeful.

I'm seeing change in my lifetime. And I think for a lot of us who do this work, We were told by elders and mentors, you know, you do this work, but you might not see it in your lifetime. And I always thought that was bananas. I was like, why would I do all this work to not be able to see it in my lifetime? So, I mean, if we take stock of everything, I've been alive to see the first black president in the history of this country, the first black woman and Indian woman to ever be vice president in the history of this country.

I've been the smallest part of the largest social movement in history. And that's just in the span of 40 years. So you can just imagine what's coming for us. So that's why I'm feeling hopeful because I'm seeing change happen right before my eyes and I'm so grateful.

There are people, and before we even get to this, you have a book out right now. You have a new book, Purpose of Power, how we come together when we fall apart. You, a lot of, you kind of burst onto the scene, if that's the term that you use in the activist space, I don't know if that, it's not like you dropped a new album or nothing like that. Oh, why not?

As, as, because you were one of the co-creators of Black Lives Matter. And that's kind of how we had, how we got to know you. And now your platform is about so much more. what was the purpose of you writing the book? What was the singular goal that you had to sort of streamline what it is that you were saying and talk to people on a more intimate level? Because writing a book is very hard and getting your message across in that book is incredibly hard.

So what did you want to say? Well, I wrote this book because it's the book I wanted when I first started doing this work. Interesting. You know, I was talking to one of my mentors the other day, and she's somebody who, you know, comes from a political family. You know, her sister was one of the first members of the student nonviolent coordinating committee. You know, she's like an OG, in the OG sense. And she was describing to me this period after the 1970s in the early 80s and mid 80s,

where it felt like everything was collapsing and it felt like there was no more movement. And she said to me, you know, the only thing we could do in that moment was try to leave some breadcrumbs so that people could find the movement. And it was interesting that she said that because it was right around that time that I found the movement. So I was like, good job, Linda, number one. But also it made me think about, you know, for a lot of us that want to make change that are unsatisfied with the way things are, we don't know where to start. And for those of us who are just getting started, we don't know if what we're dealing with is normal, abnormal, right, wrong. We're just kind of wading through it. So I wanted to leave some breadcrumbs in the forest. I wanted to pull back the curtains on what people think about as activism. So many of us think about protests as the only form of activism. And as somebody who has been in the work of social change for the better part of 20 years, I can tell you that it's all about what happens in between. And so what I wanted to just offer is my lessons from things I've learned,

things I'm unlearning, things I still have yet to learn, and also to refocus us on what it is that we're trying to do. What we're trying to do is build power. We're trying to make rules and we're trying to change rules. And in order to do that, right, we have to be the best versions of ourselves that we can possibly be. So that's what I hope we get across in this book. it's not a Black Lives Matter book, and I did that on purpose. Black Lives Matter, you know, our story is still being written.

I didn't want to put a period at the end of that sentence, but I did want to create something that people could sink their teeth into so that they can step up to the opportunity of this moment. So I hope that's what we were able to accomplish. One of the things that you and your organization have created was the Black mandate for the Biden-Harris administration. And it was policy recommendations for the first hundred days of Biden's presidency and beyond. And it covered issues like COVID and housing and wages and threats posed by climate change and white nationalism.

I'm wondering, have you had the opportunity to talk with the Biden administration? And also, how do you feel they are about approaching some of these issues that are in the mandate? Yeah. We have had the opportunity to talk with some people inside the administration. They've been great conversations. I think what's clear is that everybody's trying to figure it out in a lot of ways. You know, if you're like me, you weren't sure we were going to be here. I thought, you know, this time last year, I was like, I got to get the bunker ready because we don't have another 20 years of Donald Trump.

So now that we're not there, I do want to give them some credit for trying to figure out how to get out of this pit and doing what I think is a laudable job. Now with that being said, my job is to push them to do more. And it's not to, you know, just try to be at the table. Tables are easy to get to. It's what you do to set the menu that really matters. And that's why we did this build back bolder mandate. And it is a black mandate for the Biden-Harris administration. Black people delivered power in all three branches of government to this administration with the expectation.

that they were going to get things done. Not the promises you make on the campaign trail, but literally change the rules that have been rigged against our communities for generations. And I want to see black people win so that America can win. It's not just about, you know,

it's not about building black supremacy. That's what white people think we're doing. That's not what we're doing. Right. And like, yeah, we out here fighting for us, but we also fighting for you too. And what's good for us, us is good for everybody in America.

And so I think we got to put our feet on the gas here. We may not have power in all three branches of government for very long. But while we do, it's time to put the pedal to the medal and make sure that we win real things for real people. It's so interesting. First of all, I just want to make sure I name this. You're extremely good at talking. It's just like extremely, I just like extremely, I just want to make sure I name it.

But you hit on something that's incredibly frustrating for me. There seems to be a belief that America has enough talent to run efficiently, letting a gigantic swath of talented people, of potential contributors to the country, living communities that are failing. And the undercapitalization of black and brown people, it seems to be almost a function of white supremacy. Like they don't think that we have anything to add to the American conversation.

So why invest? For people that feel that way, and I'm going to ask you, you actually shifted my question, for people who feel that way, for people who feel frustrated at the lack of humanity and equality that we're treated with. And it can't muster the power. to stand up and go and subject themselves to more of it like you have,

what would you say to them? What do you say to people who just don't think things are ever going to change? Look, I feel you, and I feel that way sometimes. I'm not going to lie. I'm tired, too. I'm tired of these people. I'm tired of the same conversations. I'm tired of the same rhetoric and the same reasons for why we can't do a thing.

we send people to space. Everything is possible. I'm not taking no for an answer. And I'm not taking no for an answer because I'm so tired of how corrupt these systems are. And, you know, for me, I'm not going to gaslight anybody and say, oh, you know, you just have to work hard or feel better about yourself. It's not about any of that. It's about doing hard things in spite of the fact that they're hard. And I was always told, it's not enough to be mad.

It's fine to be mad, but don't just be mad. Get organized. And for me, on my worst days, what keeps me going is the very real possibility of winning. And winning to me is the ultimate reward for generations of people who did not win, right? Who were beat down, who were beaten, who were murdered. This is why we do this work, right? One, because I'm I'm trying to stay alive. I know y'all try to stay alive. I would like to take more breaths. But two, because I don't think that this corrupt, vapid system, set of systems should be able to claim any kind of victories.

And so every single day I work to rob them of the opportunity of claiming victory over us once again. You know, it's interesting because with what we saw last year, and like you said, you know, seven, eight years ago, we weren't seeing people respond and aware in the way that we are now. And I feel like in 2020, you know, that's all this awareness came about as if it didn't exist, hasn't existed in this country for years and years and years and years. One of the things, one of the things that's been interesting is that this current generation has really gotten involved in speaking. out and demanding change. And you've got a younger generation who's sitting back and watching what's happening. And it makes me think of education because when I think back during my time when I was younger, our history books didn't talk about Black History. And if we did talk about it, it was during Black History Month. And it was really up to our parents and our community to teach us the history or you learned it later in life. How important do you think it is to make sure that

our history is included in the current curriculum when it comes to this younger generation. And what efforts and lessons would you like to see from schools in 2021 and beyond in teaching Black history? That's such a good question. Look, I think the stories that we tell about ourselves, each other, where we've been, where we are, and where we're going are some of the most important things for us to pass on. And there has been a deliberate set of attempts for many years to change and control those stories. I read not too long ago that there was a school district in Texas that was trying to change the textbooks to talk about slavery as people coming to America, immigrating to America

to work. Not quite. Technically. You what I mean? I'm just saying. I'm just going to say. That's my choice. It's a nice choice.

Yeah, that's a bad choice. Sure. Immigration means sticking people at the bottoms of boats and chains. Right. And dragging them out of their ancestral lands. Yes. Fans using a flexible definition. But that's what makes us understand how important schooling is and how important that landscape is.

And we should not leave it untouched. And we should not leave it on the table for other people to shape. I think we also tell the same kinds of stories about change and activism. You know, I grew up hearing about the Black Panther Party and not hearing the valorized stories of the Panthers, but, you know, the OG stories where, you know, folks would say, well, they were thugs or, you know, they started off good, but then they went in a weird direction, right? Like, we tell these stories about movements that are two-dimensional and they really reflect a set of values that don't move us forward and we're not given the tools to be able to pick that apart, right? Because we keep saying

when people crossed the, you know, Edmund Pettus Bridge, they were just fighting for the right to vote. No, they were fighting for dignity and self-determination. And that was one action that people took alongside many to make sure that we had a future, right? And voting was a part of that, but it wasn't the only part. And I talk about that because I think when it comes to generations and getting involved and getting motivated, I'm feeling like the younger generation is ahead of my generation and certainly ahead of the generation before us.

I mean, last year, young people were organizing on TikTok buying up all the tickets for a Trump rally so that nobody would show up. I mean, I was like, that's brilliant. What am I over here doing, you know, breaking my neck? like y'all just got organized on a new platform and handled some business. So I want us to feel like young people are involved. I think sometimes what happens is that we can't see their involvement. Young people be secretive too. They just be to themselves. Unless you're tuned in and in relationship,

it's hard to see. So I want to give young people credit for the organizing that they're doing. I feel like they're inspiring the rest of us to go harder, to take risks, to be bolder. You know, I'm noticing even as I get older, there's risks I won't take, risks I don't want to take. Risks, I'm like, do I have to do that? Maybe I could do it nicer. And I like the fact that the generation coming up after me is like, blow it all up. And then last thing I'll just say here on the education piece, you know, in my book, I talk about, growing up during what I would call, you know, culture wars.

There was, this was when the right and the conservative right in particular was gaining steam as a movement and they were taking power in state houses across the country. As a part of that, they waged this war around values, right? A renegotiation of the story of who we are and who we can be. A lot of people think Donald Trump came up with this Make America Great Against slogan, but it was not Donald Trump. It was Ronald Reagan. Reagan, who was president when I was born. And, you know, there was all this conversation about the moral majority, focus on the family, conservative values, which is really about, you know,

reinserting, you know, Christianity specifically into government. And I think we're in another one of those moments. And it's an incredible opportunity for us to keep reshaping the story of who we are and who we can be. And for those people who are like, I'm not a protester or, you know, I don't do certain kinds of things. Cool. Help us shape and retell this story where it's not about makers and takers and the makers are white people and the takers are black people. Help us retell this story of what America is supposed to be.

I think that's an incredible role for people to play right now. So there was something that kind of got popping on Twitter. We're going to talk about it more in the podcast, but I want to ask you about this. all right. She's like, you like a little. Seriously. You got popping on Twitter.

You know what I'm talking about. It's Stacy Dash. That's what I thought you were going to say. I know. So, but I want to ask this question, though, because as much, I want to ask this question.

Seriously. So Stacey Dash has now said, she was literally an attack dog for white supremacy for years. Let's just be honest. She was an attack dog for white supremacy for years. It was like,

hey the niggers are acting up again let's go to Stacey Dash for her take so you know what I mean that that's literally the function she plays a role she played for years she's now saying she was in an angry place she is apologizing for the mean things that she said

and she says she's off the Trump train doesn't believe in Trump after January 6th insurrection okay we're talking about love and sort of it's interesting because my first my first inclination is to be like screw you at the moment we both we needed you most, you switched up.

I wonder what your feelings are on something like that. People who get caught up into these cultural wars like you're talking about and are on an adverse side to so many of us. Do you believe that somebody like that can wake up one day and have an epiphany and be like, hey, I was wrong? Do you, how should the community, not, I'm not going to ask you to speak for the whole community, but what are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

You know, I always find that the most ironic piece of all of this In every instance where you have black people Really doing their best to promote a white supremacist agenda I always kind of feel like not only who asked you But even the white people didn't have your back So was it worth it? Yeah whatever you was chasing, was it worth it?

And can people be brought back into the fold? Sure. I think if you're clear and honest and accountable about what it is that you were trying to do and you can clearly demonstrate that you repent, sure. Do I trust Stacey Dash with anything political? Absolutely not.

So for the announcement really just tells me that she's hurt and she's hurting in a lot of places. And I hope that she gets the help and the support that she needs. Other than that, though, I'm not taking political advice from Stacey Dash. I'm not looking to Stacey Dash to better understand how I can be powerful in this process. So I really don't pay in no mind to keep it a buck. And I feel like other people shouldn't pay in no mind either. I agree with that.

I need to understand that. She says she was an angry, angry black woman. Is that what she called herself? Angry at who? Angry at us. Angry at just, I need more. I need, that wasn't enough for me. I need to understand.

She's angry at y'all. No, don't say y'all. I'm angry at how whiteness has shaped her life so much. I don't know any self-respecting black women that describe themselves as angry black women. Like, I just, you know, like there's so much of this for me that's like, wow, white people have really shaped your whole ass world and shape how you think about yourself, your value, your contributions. And all I can do about that is pray. I mean, okay, well, can I ask you this? Because you grew up with a black mother and a white

stepfather. And you've said that that allowed you to see that white people see the world through a different lens than black people. So, in it almost white people shaped your life, or at least your stepdad did, because it allows you to see a different perspective of it. Yet then we have Stacey Dash, who just shaped her life completely. How important do you feel that was, the experience that you had growing up,

and did it inspire you to do the work that you do now? You know, one of the things I really appreciate about my childhood and my growing up is that I got to see into worlds that a lot of people don't get to see into. And, you know, my mother, is a working class black woman from Toledo, Ohio, via Jackson, Mississippi. And so if you can imagine, right, the juxtaposition of what my household looked like.

And my mom taught me a lot about what it meant not just to be black, but to appreciate black people and what we bring to the world. It was my mother who taught me just these little things, right? Like, I remember being maybe five, six years old and we were walking down the street and we walked past a black woman and my mom said, say hello. And I said, I don't know her. She said, it doesn't matter. Say hello. I like her. It's that sensibility. And I think, you know, in terms of, you know, my stepdad, who is essentially my dad, he's been in my life since I was four years old, you know, it's interesting seeing yourself reflected back to you through the eyes of someone who is not you. And there's a lot of love in there, right? But then there's also a lot of the

bullshit that white people carry around with them about black people. And, you know, and then when you start to think about that in the context of being in a wealthy community, where you're one of the only black people. You constantly deal with people reflecting back society stereotypes on you, but they also do this thing, right, where they're like, you're not like other black people. You're not like what I'm being taught black people are or who black people are supposed to be, how black people are supposed to act. And it really would like make smoke come out of their ears, right? I would open my mouth and they'd be like, well, I don't understand. Why do you talk like that? I'd be like, I just talk how I talk. So in a lot of ways, what I'm grateful for is that having those

experiences, having that mixed household, not just in terms of race, but also in terms of class and experiences, really help me see what's common about us and why things are so different between us. And, you know, my partner now grew up in a working class community, evangelical family. And they used to say to me, you know, rich people do this and rich people do that. And I was like, no, rich people have the exact same problems. They can just hide it better because they have money. A lot of the people I grew up with, you know, they were growing up in very wealthy homes, but they didn't really have parents.

They were raised by nannies and au pairs and older siblings. You know, their parents were alcoholics. They had drug problems, right? There was all kinds of weird stuff that was happening. But you would never know that because money is a shield. And that to me has helped me be a better organizer. I ask different questions. I look at layers when it comes to people. I know that there is not just one way that people are that actually were incredibly complicated. But what connects us is that we generally long for the same things. safety, dignity, security, respect, and we want to survive. And that's the place where choice begins. So I'm excited to dive in there. The book is Purpose of Power, How We Come Together When We Fall Apart. I'm going to ask you one last question. You said you want to win. For you, what's a win? for me winning is three parts number one it's people seeing that they can be the superhero in their own story you don't got to wait for somebody to fly in and fix it you fix it yourself number two um winning looks like building and exercising power it looks like continuing to set the agenda and to hold people accountable to that

agenda. And then number three, it looks like transforming how power operates. I'm not really trying to just make everybody in the White House black. I want to change the whole way that we are governed, the way that we govern each other and ourselves. And that's a big problem for us to think about, right? How would we run a country of 300 plus million people and make sure that everybody gets the things they need? That's a win if we can figure that out. Last question I'll ask you. I just want to give you the floor and the opportunity to talk about what you've got next. You're involved with so many different things. I want you to name those organizations how people can help what it is that you're doing. Yeah. So if people were, if our listeners were just introduced to you for the first time,

I don't know why. I want to give them the opportunity to learn more about you and everything that you're doing. Yes. Well, please check us out at the Black Futures Lab. You can find us at Blackfutorslap.org and get involved. We have an electoral action center. If you mad about something, something your congressperson or your senator or whoever is doing, we can teach you how to get involved and how to get right to them. We also do a lot of work to motivate, activate, educate, and mobilize black voters across the country. We are also about to relaunch our Black to the Future Public Policy Institute because we train our people how to make new rules in cities and states that make our lives better. We just graduated 39 Black Fellows from 11 states. Oh yeah. We're investing

money in their policy campaigns this year so we can change the rules from the cannabis industry in Illinois to sentencing guidelines in California. We're on it. So come support us. And then of course, please sign on to the Build Back Boulder mandate. And you can find that at Black, the number two, the future.org. And then last, last, last, we have so many things happen. happening. The paperback version of the book comes out in the summer. It's going to be revised a bit. We've got a forward from Rashad Robinson, president of color change. Color change, my man. Rashah, what up? And a dear friend of mine. And then I'll be rewriting the last part of the book to update it to our current conditions. So don't miss that. And if you're not sick of me yet,

come and check me out on my podcast, Lady Don't Take Now, where you get the best of politics and pop culture with Lady Garza. And we're having a great time over there. We talk to good people. We talk about all the good things. And you get a little bit of the headlines. You don't have to watch CNN over and over again. Amazing.

Amazing. Alicia, we are so thankful for you. Yes. And for what you do. And we're thankful for you joining us today on Higher Learning. Thank you so much. Thank you. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop

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Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. She is one of the smartest people that I know and completely measured and elegant in the power of her brain. And when I listen to all this she's doing and all this she plays. plans to do, I'm like, I got to do more. Right? I think I'm busy, but I'm like,

I'm not doing enough when I hear everything that she's doing and everything that she's doing to build the next generation to be bigger and better. It's amazing. Amazing. Right. And something that she said is very important. Black American future is American future. Mm-hmm. So there are neighborhoods out there with people in them that aren't giving a fair shake in America. And

there's a loss there. There's a loss for the entire fabric of the country. We're not capitalizing on citizens and on their talents and things that they could offer. So we're trying to help each other and in turn, like she said, help the entire country. Now, we talked a little bit about something with her, Stacey Dash.

So just so you guys know, we're going to a little bit deeper. I just want to know what Alicia thought about it. sad that we're going from that to this. Talk about, I'm just saying, I'm just saying. Talk about somebody who's uplifting black women in the black community

and just a community in general to someone who's been detrimental to it. But go ahead, that's the introduction I'm going to give to Stacy. So Stacy Dash, you guys know as an actress, she was in Clueless, more money, lots of other things, had a pretty good career going on. Some years ago, she went hard right. and she was featured on Fox News

as sort of a talking head, very angry one that was continuously, in my opinion, reinforcing some of the most negative stereotypes about black Americans and taking public shots at people who were trying to fix

some of these problems. She was a political firebrand in the same vein of a Candace Owens or someone like that. She has now done an interview with Daily Mail TV. where she says that she apologizes for some of the angry things that she said in the past. She said that she was an angry person then. Like I said before, we were going to listen to the interview.

And she says that she now is being blackballed in the industry. There it is. Blackballed in the industry because of her political opinions. You heard this, you read this, and you thought what? I thought next. Stacey, next. That's really what I thought. I mean, I would love to hear more from Stacey,

but she pretty much told us exactly what her motives are right there. You know, initially, maybe you say, oh, maybe she is sincere and she is regretful over the things that she said, but then she just said she was being blackballed. So we really, we get where her motivation is coming from here at this point. I mean, and you talk about how she, I believe you said she perpetuated certain stereotypes when she was commenting on Fox News

when she was a contributor. Yet she's still doing that as Alicia said as well by calling herself an angry black woman. I mean, I don't know any black people or black women that would refer to themselves as angry and black, knowing that that's a stereotype that has overshadowed us. I'm deemed an angry black woman in the bachelor nation community.

So, Stacey, I just, I don't know what she thought this was going to accomplish. I don't know if she thought that people would, you know, gather around her and be more supportive of her. Because I'm going to need more than this statement, right? For years and years and years, you were attacking our community. And now you want to put out a statement because you're not able to get any work. And I just don't believe you. And I'm sorry. Maybe that's wrong of me to not accept her.

I guess you could say apology or a statement. I don't believe her. I don't believe her. And I'm going to need her to do more than just make a statement. I'm going to really need to see where you're coming from with this. And also I don't care. Let me just put that there. Like she's, she's, I don't care.

Well, that's the main thing for me. I don't, I don't really, like I don't, I stop paying attention, you know. And so, it being that I stopped paying attention. I think it's kind of hard for me to care now that I stopped paying attention. It's interesting that we went 0 for two on the All Falls Down video, though. You know, both her and yay. Just both leads. Was anybody else in it?

Common was in it for like a second, I think. Yeah, you're right. He was at the gate. Yeah, Common was in it for like a second. I think Selena Johnson was in it for a second, too. But as far as the leads of the All Falls Down video. That's where you're mine went. We went 0 for 2 in the leads of the all falls down video.

Look, I'm not, it's weird because I, if someone says, hey, I was wrong about something and, you know, I want a chance to kind of, I don't want to kick people out of the culture. That's not my goal. But it does seem like specifically with President Trump that a lot of this was people being charlatans and riding a wave that could bring you notoriety, popularity, popularity, and some sort of influence. And then as soon as that was over,

there seemed to be more and more people who are saying, hey, that wasn't really me. Yeah. And I'll put you like this, even when I worked at TMZ, which I did for a long time, if you watch any old TMZ shows, it's me, it's me joking on them, it's me doing all of this stuff, it's me, did I develop and evolve as I was there? Sure, you know, but there was never a time where I wasn't representing like who I was. I might have been doing things more inartfully at one time, but I was never, I don't know, I don't

understand this brainwashing that people go through that I make them go on television and say stuff like police brutality is a myth. Or just become an obvious pawn and stuff like that. So it's hard for me to reconcile that. I don't know that I care if

people like want to be cool with Stacy Dash or I don't think that it bothers me. But I also don't feel like I have to accept an apology. Like she owes anybody an apology. She doesn't owe anybody's apology.

She came out. Like, who is she apologizing to? She apologizing to the black community? Well, we need more answers. Yes, she's apologizing to the black community because she's saying she was angry. My question is, who were you angry at? Obviously, it was us because we were the ones that were on attack

while you were contributing to Fox and everywhere else. Yeah. Yeah, I just, it's like, okay, Stacey. Like I said, next. Okay. You're not with it. I don't think we ever really took it seriously. I don't even think we were ever really that offended.

It was more like, whoa, what's Stacy out here doing? I don't think she was a voice sorry that we really respected. It's just, you know, we liked her in a couple of movies. Yeah, yeah. Well, Stacy, you can come on here on the old podcast. You can come over here on higher learning and talk to Rachel. Like, would you, would you want her on the podcast? I would absolutely.

I have more questions from her. statement than anything else. And I would like some clarity on some of the things that she said. I would love to talk to her. Speaking of the media. Maybe we can rehabilitate her here. Think so? See, I don't even know. I don't even know what that looks like. I want to tell you this, though. It is interesting

that guys like Kanye West and other, and guys like Kanye West and guys like Little Wayne, and I know that these guys mean more to the culture, they're allowed to cozy up next to Donald Trump and it seems like we're harder on the Stacey Dash's and the Amorosa's and the Cressette Michelle's. It seems like we're harder on them

than we are on some of these other like black men that jumped on the boat too. I think people are very hard on Kanye, but I also think Kanye has more weight in the black community than Stacey Dash does just because of his music career. But I will also say this, when you throw in an Amorosa

and you throw in a Stacey Dash, they aren't one-offs. They didn't take it. one picture or make one comment, they continued to do things that were harmful to the community. They continued to do things against the community. So at that point, they're defining who they are. Like, that's who they

were or are. Yeah, look, to me, once you cast your lot with evil, it, I always said that, hey, like, once you've cast your lot, once you cast your lot with evil, it is what it is, but, you know,

who knows, I don't know what she's doing. I think she's trying to, she's going to have to probably do more than this. That's all I'm saying. She's probably going to have to do more than this. She broke it with the Daily Mail. What you want? What you want?

I'm just saying, like, I'm just curious if she tried to go to other outlets to try to break this type of news. You know, it's like, I don't know. Come here. Come here, Stacey. We would love to have a conversation with you. Yeah, Stacy, come on the podcast.

We'll, like, we'll talk to you, and Rachel will rip your ass into shreds. Come over here. That's, that's, that's, that you so, want that. I just don't know I like it. Look, you're like, you're like, you're like, I'm saying, I got your angry black female. I got your angry black female. I got, and you, you know, you know, when you know black women are angry when the, when the, when the worst, like, heifer come out. I knew my, my mom was mad when she would call a woman a heifer. We would go to, like, one time we went over

to a place we were supposed to get the T, not the TB shots. We were taking the, the sickle cell test. Did you take the sickle cell test? I don't remember. What do you mean? You don't remember. I don't remember if I took a sickle cell test. So you're telling me right now you're sitting here not knowing whether or not you have the sickle cell trait? What's going on in your community? I mean, I would assume that they did that, but I don't remember. Now you got me wondering. I'm going to text my family right now.

If you had done the sickle cell trait test, I think that you would remember it. This is something that you have to do as a young black kid. Maybe by your generation, they had had maybe some different type of thing, but we definitely had to go take a test to see if we had the sickle cell trait. I'm asking right now. Yeah, ask your mom. And if she didn't, this once again... What?

What? This once again makes me wonder sort of if Judge Lindsay was in any position to chastise like me like he did. He didn't even take his kids to sickle cell screening. Let me ask. Let me ask, let me ask Isaiah, Trudy. Did y'all get the sickle cell trait test? I really do not remember.

Thank you. I'm in the camp of Rachel. Or, or then, maybe you're just a little bit older. I am older. Isaiah, did you have the sickle cell trait test? I think I did, but I don't remember it. No, the side said no. The side before told us no.

He had it. He definitely had it. But we, so I remember we went to the sicker-sale trade test place and the woman was being like a little fussed with my mom. And my mom called her heifer. To her face. To her face. Look heifer. I'm trying to make sure my kids is okay. My mom wasn't fucking, she wasn't fucking having that.

I can't believe that. We were sitting up here. We need to get the whole ringer staff tested to make sure we know who's called home. I just don't know if people get that done anymore. They get it done. I saw people, kids that I went to school was there, they was having the test. It was the whole thing.

This is a single cell trait test. Anyway, speaking of media in the daily mail, Pierce Morkin, Piers Morgan, Pierce Morgon, one of the hosts of Good Morning Britain is no longer one of the hosts of Good Morning Britain. This Megan Markle, Prince Harry thing, has waves throughout pop culture. He walked off of the set

of the show and subsequently was either pressured to leave or left of his own accord. Pierce Morgan is no longer one of the hosts of Good Morning Britain. This comes after he was critical of Megan Markle and question whether or not claims that she was making about her mental health were true. Yeah. Jake Tapper got his ass tore up on Twitter. I don't know if you saw this. Oh, I didn't see that.

What did Jake say? Because Jake Tapper went on Twitter. and said that Pierce Morgan has a right to free speech and that people were going too hard on him for saying that he doesn't think that some of the things that Megamarkle had said about our mental health were true. What side of this do you fall on?

Do you think it's okay to question someone's... Absolutely not. No. Absolutely not. If you yourself or you know somebody who has gone, who has... struggled with their mental health, you would never question it.

You would never assume anything about it. You would listen to what it is that they're going through and you would take it as truth. Because if you're wrong, imagine the damage that that can do to that person. Just the fact that we're... Go ahead. Let me clarify real quick.

It wasn't so much that Pierce Morgan said that he didn't believe that Megamarka was feeling the way she was feeling. What he said was that he didn't believe that she was, went to a member of the royal family, staff or something like that, and told them that she was feeling that way.

And then they told her she couldn't get help because it would cause too much of a scandal. He says he doesn't believe that. Does that at all change what you think? No, because you're still questioning her discussing her mental health. And if you're going to go as far as saying that that's not true, I think you're pretty much discrediting everything that she was saying in that statement.

And I just think that that's a dangerous role. to go down and he was out of line. He's been out of line, right? And now video has emerged, at least it's the first time that I'd seen it, where he said he took Megan on the date and put her in a cab and never heard from her again because apparently that. Pierce Morgan, you never heard this? No, wait, nigga, what?

How did you miss this? No, what happened? Okay, apparently this, he did an interview. This is coming to light. He did this a while back because he looks a little bit slimmer. But he talks about his interaction with Megan Markle. And apparently they were hanging out. He said she had two martinis.

He put her in a cab. I guess it was a date hanging out. It was a one-on-one. He put her in a cab. That cab took her to a party where she met Prince Harry. And then the next day, she and Prince Harry went out on the date. So now it's like, oh, you salty. That's why you're upset over what's happened?

I can't believe you didn't hear this. Hell, no, I didn't hear this. This story is so much better. Pierce the cuck. Oh, Pierce. Where you are at? So Pierce is hurt. And he's been hurt for years.

He wasn't chosen. He wasn't the one that was chosen. And she left him for Prince Harry. His ego, he is still like trying to fix his bruised ego. Years and years and years later. Or taking it out on her. He's saying, yeah, he's absolutely taking it out on her. I also want to say this about him walking off.

To me, that was planned. Planed by him? Planed by him. Okay. I don't think that he was, I think he was like, you know what? I'm going to, he's all about big moments and making news. And he might have walked away from this, but he's going to walk away from this and get a big podcast, get another TV deal.

He's, he's a newsmaker. He does the, most, extreme things to get attention. I think that this was planned. I do not think he walked off and just has nothing else going for him. He knew exactly what it is that he was doing. So I'm not even going to give credit to him like, or not that we're looking to give him credit,

but it's just like, I'm not even going to say it was, it was like, oh my gosh, so shocking that he walked off. This is just, this is very Pierce Morgan to me. Well, he's a very wealthy guy, so he'll be okay. Yeah, he's fine. Has myriad of the things going on. But, I mean, the entire thing. So a couple of things.

Number one, think about Megan Markle in that situation. Like you're out, you're having drinks with Pierce Morgan and you're thinking, I've met like a guy who's like a catch. It's a nice guy, a mogul. I'm not saying that she liked him or anything like that. But think about it, but think about then you go to the party and then Prince Harry is there. Like, you don't even think Pierce Morgan is done.

It's over. You had no chance, Pierce Morgan. So why don't you just relax? Okay. None. But there's not, everybody has a right to their opinion, right? And having a right to your opinion means that when you put your opinion out there, there's not a shield that comes with that.

Like, people seem to think that their opinions are bulletproof, meaning that they go out there and that they can't be assailed or touched. People use the word opinion to mean some sort of thought invincibility. Like, hey, I said this. It's just the way I feel. Because it's just the way I feel, That means everybody else has to accept it, not say anything. It's my opinion.

Right. All right. No, the reality is that you put an opinion out there. And if people don't like the opinion, they get to the encounter with their opinion. And that's kind of the way America pop culture conversation goes. And I don't know when we sort of lost that whole thing. What's funny? Oh, what happened?

I got a response for my mother. What did she say? She said. not that I remember. Oh, yeah. Don't know if it were automatically done in the hospital. We may have taken it before marriage, but I can't remember. Wow.

Wow. Okay. But my sister says, my sister, Carson said she did genetic testing with her OB, and she didn't have it. So I think we're pretty, I'm pretty sure. I'm sure my parents did some kind of testing. Because your sister had to take matters in her own hand. because your parents didn't do the practice.

She did genetic testing. She had to take bars their own hands. Not specific to sickle cell. Because your parents didn't get the requisite medical workups. I would already know at this point. I mean, maybe you would, but it's the trait. It's not just sickle cell. It's the sickle cell trait.

Well, fortunately, I haven't had any children. First of all, shout out to everybody out there. But I'm just saying, it's the trait. You need to know. I got you. I got you. But I'll say about in terms of mental health, listen, if you've never had significant mental health issues, it's difficult to explain to you

like kind of what it's like. I'm not about to go into a whole thing, but I remember, like, me and Kaliko were walking to the park and this was like a much, much smaller puppy. And, like, we're walking to the park and she's got him on the leash and we're walking to the park we're going to let him go and we're going to play.

You have a beautiful cute puppy like playing, right, in the park running around in the grass. It was the first time he had seen that much grass. It's a beautiful moment, right? Beautiful little puppy running around in the grass. He was barely walking on the leash at this point. He was hard to get him there.

And like the dog is running around and like she goes, she looks at me, She goes, why aren't you interacting with him? And I looked at the dog and then I started to cry. In front of the park, everybody's there. I started to cry. And the reason why is because I wished I was the dog. Mm-hmm.

I get you. Because the dog was experiencing pure joy. Right. And so I'm looking at that and I'm jealous of the dog. I wish I was the dog. Look, I'm sorry. if anybody tells me that I didn't go through that, I'm going to take that shit pretty fucking personally

because that was some shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And having been through it, I'm just not ever, even if I thought it, I'm just not ever going to be like, nah, man, that's not what it is. Right. They never said that.

It's just, it's tough. it's tough. He has a right to think that and he has a platform to put it out there. But that's just something you don't question. You don't, you don't, it's so serious. You don't know the levels of it. Any level.

At any level, it's not okay. Very true. Very true. You know, bye Pierce. All right, Pierce. You fucked up. Rachel's not fucking with you. Let's take a break.

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that bursting with flavor perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it presenting the friar's turkey breast only from boar's head the backyard tradition now available behind the counter visit your local deli today discover the craftmanship behind every bite boar's head committed to craft since 1905 rachel uh it's about one year now the anniversary of the covid lockdown this is the week it's the 11 so this is the week that the NBA Shatia down and Tom, Hanks got it and all of that stuff like that. I can remember it like it was yesterday. I can remember it like it was yesterday.

What are your thoughts on it? Well, it just kind of takes you back. I can't believe it's one that it's only been a year because so much has happened. And even the place that I was at in life this time last year, I'm not as I'm sitting here today. I mean, even just I have a different job. I'm living in a different state, a different state, a different. City. But crazy enough, I was in L.A. And I was flying to Jersey. And during that five-hour flight,

the entire world changed. And I'm not even, I'm not even exaggerating. You found out about Tom Hanks. And then it wasn't that it was the NBA shut down. But what happened was Donovan Mitchell got it with no symptoms. So it was the first time you found out that you could be asymptomatic and have it. That wasn't the thought then. There was so much unknown. So if everybody can go back, you remember that. It was like, oh, you're showing this symptom, this symptom. And when Donovan Mitchell had it, it was like, wait, what? Wait, what? You don't have to be have symptoms and you can still catch it. That's when everything shut down. And I was actually on set to go film the second season of ghosted. That's why I was flying a jersey. I was finishing something with Bachelor, the finale.

And then I was headed to MTV to ghosted. And I just remember telling everybody, I feel extremely uncomfortable. And even on the flight, I remember you hear a cough, a sneeze, like a sniffle. I was like crouched down in my seat, like a scare to be near anybody. I had a mask on at that point. I was actually wearing masks two or three weeks before then because I was already nervous about it. We get to set. I told them flat out. I was like, I do not feel comfortable feeling. I don't want to shake hands. I don't want to talk to anybody face to face. They shut down that set. I remember calling Brian. You pick me up. We're going straight to the grocery store. I was one of those people like hoarding everything, throwing everything into my basket.

Grocery aisles empty. It was something you see out of a movie. Nothing on the aisles. All the non-perishables, gone. All the fruit and vegetables, gone. Gone. And yeah, then we came home and I just remember just thinking like, what is tomorrow? What is tomorrow going to be like?

What are we living in right now? Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. So good old Jamel Hill and I had met with the producer on a Friday. We had talked to a guy on a Friday. And it was outside at the Kingsrow Cafe. And I remember that because I already had hand sanitizer on my keychain at that point. Because, you know, people started to talk about it.

The cases were starting to be. It was starting to become obvious that was a thing. really in mid-February it started to become like okay this thing is spreading around the world but it didn't seem like you but you know there have been things like that before that wait do you remember we were together the week before it was right before I left I did we had a meeting about this and you sneezed and I jumped back and you were like it's allergies right yeah yeah I'm like I don't know that right yeah yeah it's San Sende de Nangalos yeah so and then that Monday after I had a league basketball game. I remember texting my teammates in the league basketball game and go, yo, are we are we playing tonight?

And they go, yeah, we're playing tonight. And I'm like, you guys aren't worried about the coronavirus. And they go, of course, we're concerned about it. But, you know, we're not going to stop living our lives. So I play. That Monday. That Tuesday, I go to the. the gym and I'm playing basketball.

I remember I'm playing. wild out here. I'm playing basketball, right? And on the basketball court, there's a guy who, good athlete, I play with them all the time, but he is like, he's asking his homie to go get him some tissue and he is, ah,

the whole time. And like, like, seriously, like blowing his nose and then catching the ball, And I remember I actually faked a cramp and got off the court. And I started walking around Hollywood. Just I was on a business call. Come home, that was a Tuesday. Wednesday. And it started raining in LA.

Wednesday, everything seems okay. And then I get a call from my homie, yo. The jazz aren't coming out. Like, they're going to stop the game because of the coronavirus. And I'm like, what? I'm like, is that serious? But still not a big deal. And then the NBA shut down.

And I was like, it's the end of the world. And I literally, the NBA shut down, Tom Hanks got it. That Friday, like that weekend, I remember a friend invited me over to their house for like a get together. And I berated him. I'm like, are you fucking crazy? Like, no fucking way. We went to Walmart and rose me. We came back.

We washed all the groceries. Yeah. We like we like I started washing my hands and then I never forget this. I think I told this story before. But like a week after that, Jamel hit me and told me that the producer that we met at the Kings Road Cafe. No. Tested positive for the coronavirus. No.

And that's when I, that's when my, that's when the descent into. mental anguish started for me. Like, that's when it started. You couldn't tell me I didn't have it. Yeah. And so just, just like, being in that whole time, I can remember what the air smelled like. It was such a stressful time for everyone.

Well, just every day you woke up and you didn't know. It was like every day there was something new in the news. You didn't know. Like, I just remember I was like I didn't have income at that point either because everything had been. been shut down and we just didn't know when things were going to open up. I just remember thinking, like, how do we function? How do we go about each day?

I woke up and I was like, what do I do? I just remember waking up and just sitting. I would just sit. I go out on my balcony and I would just sit and I would just stare at the water. Like, I just didn't know how to function. Just so much unknown. It's crazy. And here we are a year later.

And now they're signing the COVID relief bill. Yep. A year later, to the date. You know, we could be. round in the corner if everybody does what they're supposed to do, but it's been one hell of a time, man. It's been one hell of a time. Okay.

So before we even get into it, before we even get into it, this week's episode of The Bachelor enraged me. Yeah. Before we even, look, I don't even want to be a, I don't want to be a dick about it. I really don't, because I know I do the Winnie Rose and in light of- Talk about how you feel. In light of things that have been happening in The Bachelor Nation, I've been having a little bit less fun with Matt

because I actually feel for Matt having his season be the season where all of this stuff is being kicked off and blah blah blah. Yeah. Matt embarrassed himself. And not only embarrassed himself. I felt embarrassed on behalf of the whole culture for Matt with the conversation that he had with his father. on The Bachelor this past Monday.

Yeah. I talk about my dad on this podcast all the time. There are situations between my father and I that are not resolved. There are these things that went on, like, as with my dad in his life that we haven't talked about, there is no way on God's green earth that I would ever get. on television and berate my father press him

press him on TV like that that guy walked in there he didn't have any clue I'm not saying that anything that Matt said

wasn't true that man walked into a buzz song he couldn't believe what was happening it looked like when he first So I watched the scene over five or six times. It looked like he was actually delighted.

He was. Looking around saying how nice the place was, all of that stuff. And Matt way laid him. Please make this make sense to me. I have no idea like what the fuck was going on. I can't make this make sense to you. I was. And so like I tried because of everything Matt's going on,

I mean going on with Matt, I tried not to talk about what Matt did because I'm like you, I would have never allowed that conversation to happen on camera. You could have never talked to me into that. But it happened. Okay. I can't imagine if the goal of this was to in some way rectify the relationship that you have with your father. If the goal of this is in some way for you to have a conversation you've never had before in the hopes of mending a broken. broken relationship. If I'm your father, how could I ever trust you? I just, that in no way could

that have helped their relationship. The dad even said at one point, why are you doing this? Like, right? Like, why are we having this conversation right now? It just took the sincerity out of the conversation, the fact that you decided to have it in front of three cameras, Mike's ambushing your dad when he had no... There's no way in the world that he came on this show and they said, okay, so Matt's going to confront you

about you being an absentee father. Just so you know, have a good time. No way that that happens. Is it also possible that the bachelor isn't the right forum to discuss Black father Van, say it again.

If anything the show has shown us that they don't know how to handle people of color, conversations that have to deal with race, they are not equipped to do that. They mishandle it all the time. And I had a lot of people say, because I went off on this on Juliet's Bachelor Party podcast. Oh, Juliet, what up? And a shout out to Juliet. And a lot of people were like, Rachel. So on my season, there was a guy who's had a strained relationship with his family.

And his father, he lost his mother as a teenager and it caused a riff in the family. And so his relationship with his dad was not what it used to be. And he didn't want me to go home at first. He didn't want me. He liked me, but he didn't want to give me a hometown because he didn't want to have to deal with his family. And of course, he agreed he ended up going and doing it. We made his family. And his father was, oh gosh, I can't seek.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. And so, like, had a completely different lifestyle, you know, like had the turban and had, like, you know, like the whole attire. I actually thoroughly enjoyed my time. Like, we had like a sound bath and they cooked food, food from the garden. Anyways, people were like, Rachel, that exploited the relationship that he had with his father. You were correct.

The show exploited that relationship. That is totally different from this situation with Matt, because not only was it exploitation, it was exploiting a stereotype that has been a huge, like, overshadowed the black community for years and years and years. And you were perpetuating the stereotype by highlighting the fact that Matt had an absentee black father. I even got people tweeting at me saying, Rachel, it's great that you have a father. but four out of my five black friends don't have fathers. So it was great.

I'll be rude with you guys. I'm okay. Number one. The show has done stuff like that before because remember they did the same thing with Aaron Rogers and his brother. Remember? Yeah.

Yeah. Exploiting family. Yeah. People's family dynamics. Right. Look. I'm sorry. You guys are going to throw statistics

back in my face. you're going to tell me all anecdotal evidence. The reality is that the reality is this. The trope about black men not loving their children is a racist white supremacist lie. And it's such a lie that I'm going to be honest with you guys. I am not going to go fucking back and front. force it to you about it.

I'm not. I'm going to say it's a lie and then y'all can go believe whatever y'all want to believe. I'm not. And to me, it's little shit like this. I'm not going to be super serious about it because it's The Bachelor, but it's a little shit like this

that makes me wonder about guys like Matt, seriously. Because knowing how that would be interpreted, and maybe he didn't want it to come out, But he did it, though. But he participated in it. But knowing how that would be interpreted, there's just no way you can allow yourself to be in that situation.

Very, very weird. I felt for his dad. I felt for his, now that doesn't excuse any of the things that went on and matched childhood or any of the stuff that they're talking about. But man, tell me that we about to have a conversation. I'm about to show you to my new life and all of that stuff like that.

that and then that happens, that's a tough one, man. That really is a tough one. Well, and people who want to come with these statistics, that is such a flawed statistic about black children growing up in fatherless homes because that statistic does not include divorced parents. It doesn't include parents that were never married, and the father is very involved in the child's life and just doesn't live. They live separately.

It is so flawed and it's flawed on purpose to perpetuate. certain stereotypes and you have to realize that to hold negative connotations against the black community and black men especially. So I just, it, at the moment I saw it, I was enraged about it. I spoke to producers about it. I said it was a problem. Unfortunately, it's not my season and it's not up to me. I'll tell you, though, that, you know, I was told that Matt was uncomfortable with that scene. And I just, what, what bothers me, what bothers me is you have publicly said that you want to do better. You have publicly admitted that you've been on the wrong side of things.

You've talked about how you've hired a diversity consultant. I have a hard time believing a diversity consultant told you that that was okay. That that was a good idea. Consultants can only suggest, right? It's up to the decision makers to actually decide. how things move forward. And it just shows that you either don't care or you really don't get it, that you saw this and thought it was okay. It shows that you don't understand the black experience. I'm sure that in that decision room, they were like, you know what, this is so great because Matt is

finally showing emotion and he's breaking down and we're understanding why it's hard for him to open up and move forward in relationships. And this is going to be riveting TV. Yet not one time did you consider the two people who were involved and the negative impact that this has. to your lily white audience that watches this. It continues to cause them to think a certain way about black men and black fathers. And it enrages me that you still thought it was okay to air that.

It just, like, it just, they don't care. You're not that stupid. You know exactly what that was perpetuating. It irks me. Bats nation. I gotta go ahead. I gotta do it, man. 15 weenies.

That's it. I hate it to do it, but I have to do it. 15 weenis maximuses. I just don't want to hear the show say that you're trying to do better for people of color when you do shit like that. I don't want to hear it.

Because your actions are speaking way louder than any statement you've ever put out. It's very tough. It's tough. It's tough. All right. Let's go ahead and do it. Let's do Jackson.

Come on. Seriously, Jackson, hurry up. You know, Jackson, don't let him rush you like this. Because by the time we get to this moment, he tries to rush the rest of the podcast. Right. Jackson, it's mailback time. Hold on. It's time for Mel back.

Cue the song. Mailback time. Time to read your letters. And then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. write us with your queries and we'll chime in

all right Jackson let's go let's go we don't have a lot of time like give us a mail back We don't have a lot of time because you've been talking Come on. Let them know Jackson From Grego Vallejo

What's the most you spent on a pair of shoes And what shoes did you buy? It's a good question I'll tell you For me It was the shoes that I wore on my wedding day. They were Christian

Loubaton, gold, silver, studded, beautiful, beautiful shoes, studded all the way around, all the way around, beautiful. Did they ask how much? It was somewhere a little over two G's. Yeah, so I think mine,

I got some Jordans. They were like a thousand bucks or something like that. I had to find them. I can't remember. I don't spend too much money on shoes. I bought other people's shoes that were more expensive than that.

Oh, wow. I got to get on that. that list. Oh. Get her some shoes. You know what I'm saying? But, but yeah,

so it's something like that. That's, yeah. I don't buy it. The shoes are not that expensive. Plus, people send me a lot of shoes. So I was like, that's what it is. There we go.

That's the family now. Hey, hey, hey, Jackson, next question. Fast. From Irma Fernandez, what's something that you started doing

during the pandemic that you didn't do before? Is it something that you will continue to do once things are normal again? Oh. Okay. For me, it's not like an activity. I mean, I guess it could be, but I would say reflection. I'm such a on the go, go, go, person that I don't just take time to just be still and be and think about things as they're happening.

I'm just always on to the next thing. And so you were forced to just sit down and deal with whatever it is that you were going through your thoughts, your future, your present, all of that. So, your past. So for me, reflection was a difficult thing at the beginning of the pandemic. It turned out to be a beautiful thing. And it's something that I'm constantly aware of now. So when I get too wrapped up in my day to day or focused on something or fixated on something, I'm constantly reminded to reflect. Like, I'll even pause in the middle of my day and be like, I just got to have 10 minutes to just be.

Right. Never did that before. Let me think. Answer an email. I didn't start, I didn't start doing that until the pandemic and I'm going to go back to not doing it after. I don't like answering emails. How do things get done? You have an assistant?

No, I don't have an assistant. I don't, I don't enjoy communicating via email. You know, I don't like email is weird to me. It's like, hey, van, we got something. Look, people like, let me, don't put me on the email. Is text weird to you? Text is great. Emails are different.

It's communicating through words. I don't like emailing. about that. How about I don't have to like that. I don't like email. No sense. No, but I started meditating and I'll continue to meditate. I didn't meditate much before this and now I'll continue to meditate.

Last one, Jackson, make it snappy. From Renee Felice Kelly. The podcast is almost a year old. Have your hopes for the podcast changed or say the same as you've watched it grow? What are your hopes for the future of the podcast? Well, I mean,

I think for me, I really appreciate the thought warrior community, the ever growing thought warrior community. The podcast is picking up steam and traction. We're doing great. And I appreciate all you guys out there. My hope is that we continue to evolve as people and that the podcast continues to evolve along with us.

I think that that's the hope. If we are able to show up here every day and deliver the show, I think the show will always be amazing. But I will say this. We're talking about the podcast. I'm thankful for my co-hosts. Like it, you know, I didn't know you before this. We only met the one time at the San Vicente Bungalos.

Twice, did we meet two? Oh, yeah, at the Ringer. Oh, yeah, at the Ringer and at the San Francisco de Bungalos. But I think we're a dynamite pairing, and I don't know where the podcast can go. That's right. Don't limit, baby. Don't limit us.

Don't limit us. You know what? I'm looking forward to, okay, when we started this a year ago, we thought we were doing this in person, right? COVID hadn't really popped off. I shouldn't say like that. Poped off.

COVID had drop yet. COVID had dropped yet. COVID was amongst us, but it hadn't affected us the way that it has now. So, you know, I'm looking forward, moving forward to being in person, to having that energy. You know, shout out to my co-host.

I appreciate you, Van. I love the way that our relationship has grown and what we're able to bring to this podcast. And we'll also say, in addition to Van saying about talking about evolving, when we started this podcast, we knew that we were going to be talking about things and how they affected the black community, but it was going to be more lighthearted. Yeah, it was going to be current affairs, pop culture. But then when we started this podcast, it was literally a week before George Floyd was murdered. And this podcast has been a response to what is happening in the community even more than we thought it would be. And so, like, moving forward, I hope that we.

continue to do that, that people come to our podcast, and they're like, you know what? I got to hear what Van and Rachel have to say about this because I know they're going to be on top of it. So whether you get a serious moment for us or you're laughing with us over something stupid talking about fiber and having to go to the bathroom, like I hope that we

just continue to take you on, you know, whatever it is that we're going through throughout our day and what's happening in life and in this world and, yeah, coming to a TV screen near you. TV screen near you. The Black Regis and Kelly. I knew that was going to come out.

I love that. That's how I love that. Okay, do you have an unexpected ally of the week? Actually, Alicia took mine. I was going to say when Alicia talked about what Goldman Sachs did, I was like, Alicia, that's my unexpected ally of the week. And it was actually given to me by a thought warrior, so I want to shout her out. Marilyn Janish, I hope I'm saying your last name, right?

But she said Goldman Sachs to invest $10 billion over. over a decade to support black women. The full story can be found at Black Enterprise on Instagram. But shout out to Maryland for giving me that. That's absolutely amazing. And obviously it's picking up traction because Alicia, our wonderful guest, mentioned it as well. That was mine too.

Though we were all thinking the same way. Was it really? No, it seriously was. Okay. Me and my brother talked about this a long time yesterday. My brother's against it, but he's a weirdo. All right. Look, that's all we got.

I got to tell you guys something. It's going to be a nervous weekend for me. The Oscar nominations come out on Monday morning. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited. We're going to have you on extra. The Oscar nominations come out Monday morning. And by the time we're recording the next podcast,

we will know whether or not Two Dish and Strangers is nominated for a Best Life Action Short Film Academy Award. This short film, if you haven't seen it already, is picking up so much traction and so much steam. No lie, somebody in the office said something to me about it today. Shout out to Ron Lee. It will be nominated. We will be discussing it.

I can't wait. Y'all, we have an Oscar nominee in our midst. No, we don't have anything yet. I can't wait. Monday morning. I can't wait when it is announced. I'm going to be bragging to everybody up here. I'm going to be like, well, you know I know one of the nominees, of course.

Would you like for me to book him on? on extra. And say, oh, please, y'all, go show Van some love. This is amazing. I can't wait until the announcement comes on Monday. Yes, it will be nominated. And if not, fuck the Austin. All right, guys.

Anything caps off. Did you not stop learning. I am Van Lathen. I'm Rachel Lindsay.