Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Processing the Death of Daunte Wright and 2nd Lt. Caron Nazario Getting Pepper-Sprayed

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss the two latest high-profile incidents of law enforcement misconduct: Virginia police pulling over and pepper-spraying 2nd Lt. Caron Nazario last December, and Minnesota police shooting and killing Daunte Wright this week (0:30). Then they bring on detectives Ralph Horton and Dre Severino of the Baltimore City Police Department to discuss these two events and policing in America at large (16:00). Finally, Van and Rachel discuss Patrisse Cullors buying multiple houses (1:00:10), Kid Cudi’s ‘SNL’ performances (1:14:00), and Kyrie Irving not liking the N-word (1:22:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, what is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan. And it's me, Rachel Lindsay. No pleasantries. None. Got no pleasantries for you guys. Normally, me and Rachel do between 10 and 15 minutes

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Restrictions applies. See terms at fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. So we were yet again assaulted with two incidents. of police misconduct this past weekend. The first one happened around Friday when video from a traffic stop in Virginia was released to the public. This video involved

the lieutenant, uh, Karon Nazario, he's, uh, Afro-Latin brother, who was driving his car, was pulled over by police, was pepper sprayed, um, and in my opinion, unlawfully detained and roughed up by the cops. For sure.

I'm sure most people have seen the video now, he is suing the police department there in Virginia. And there's been an investigation opened by the Virginia State Police into the matter. One of the officers has already been fired. If you haven't seen the video, then what happens in the video is Nazario's car is there. The cops roll up.

This is a felony stop. They have their guns drawn. Why it was a felony stop. We would later find out that they thought that it was a high-risk car stop because he was driving slow and his windows were really tinted. He did not have plates on the back of his car

because it was new, but he did have dealer plates on it that are visible. So why they decided to draw weapons on this guy, I don't fucking know. They draw their weapons. They go over and they talk to him. They asked him to put his hands out.

He refuses to get out of his car. Why? Because I don't know. Maybe he thought that he was going to be in front of a fucking firing squad. Right. Pure fear. So maybe he was scared to get out of his car because the cops have their guns drawn.

It was at night too. It was at night. He actually drove at a low speed to a well-lit area for his safety and for theirs. But they ignored that, right? And so then after that, they go over to the guy

when his hands are out. He's asking why he was stopped. They don't tell him why They were stopped. They pepper spray him. First of all, they order him out of the car. He says, I'm afraid to get out of the car. What are the officers that said,

you should be afraid. So like, I'm going to get out of the car after that. They then pepper spray him. And they drag him out of his vehicle. It turned out there was no charge filed. And now people are up in arms. Before we even get to the other tragedy, what did you think when you first saw that video, Rachel?

Well, I mean, it's just, I felt helpless. It's like, what are we supposed to do? This is a man who is abiding by the law. He's doing everything that he's supposed to do. He pulls over. He complies. It wasn't even a reason to stop him. Then he expresses to the officer just so you know, I'm scared.

You know, he's doing exactly what you're told to do. And it's still not enough. Yeah. Still not enough. That's all I can. kept thinking over and over my head, what are we supposed to do then? When you do everything right, it's still not enough. And just like, I don't, just the, the audacity of that officer to just say, you should be,

you should be scared. I mean, just talking to civilians as if they're nothing. The people, the very people you're supposed to protect, you're talking to them as if they're like a bug. Okay. So I'm going to read it. I'm going to read a back and forth text message situation here. Okay.

With a lawyer friend of mine who saw my post and then he wrote this. Only because you asked this question in your post, assuming the traffic stop was legit. Lieutenant Lazario was not in its constitutional right to refuse to get out of the car. The Supreme Court has held over and over again that the police can order a person out of the car until a traffic stop is over. And the refusal to do so is grounds for arrest. That doesn't mean other aspects. of the stop were proper. They weren't.

Or that they shouldn't be kicked out of the force. They should. But the order was legal. Okay. So that is in reaction to the fact that he was given an order to get out of his car and he did not get out.

The conversation went further. This is between me and my lawyer friend who studied constitutionally. I asked, what does assuming the traffic stop was legit mean? Exactly.

If the traffic stop wasn't legit, does he have to get out or not? The order would then be fruit of poison this treat and unlawful. But all a cop had to do is all a cop has to do is lie. Say he was swerving. He didn't come to a full stop. He didn't signal.

And it's almost impossible to show an unlawful stop. I didn't say, well, this was a felony stop. This was a high risk felony stop, right? Felony stop is when, hey, you know, a cop lights you up, right?

And he pulls you over it. He says, hey, how you doing? He walks over to your situation. And he goes, hey, you're speeding, license of registration, cool, you give him your license registration, whatever. Okay. That's not what this is. This is one of those ones you see on TV, hey, get out of the car, guns drawn, high-risk stop, normally a felony suspect or like a dangerous situation, right?

So normally in a situation like that, and this is Van speaking from what he, from the lay of this that, as a layman, should I say, normally in a situation like that, they know why they're stopping you. So either you just ran from the cops and they feel like, okay, what is this person going to do to get away from this? Or they're executing some kind of high-risk situation. You're a violent criminal. You're in a stolen car. You got all kinds of dope on you. They got a description that someone inside the car is kidnapped. And now they have to

normally that's when they bring out the gats and stuff like that. But in a situation like that, more often times than not, they know what they're suspecting you of. So it's warranted, at least some of the time, in them react in the way that they're reacting. So I asked them, I said, this was a

felony stop, so that seems pretty cut and dry. He goes, ah, do we know what the claimed justification for the stop was? Okay. Now we know. The justification for the stop seems to be

that he didn't have dealer plates on his car. So he didn't have plates on his car. Then he drove at a low speed. The stop was because he didn't have plates. And he drove at a low speed. It was at night and it took him a while to pull over, which we now know why.

But that's what the police were trying to say. Well, it took him a long time to pull over. All within your rights. I looked it up. If you were getting stopped by the police, you have the right to drive to a safe space. Yes, that is true. and then execute your business with the cops.

You have that right to do that, okay? Cool. So now we know, so now we can get rid of everything that me and this guy were talking about because the stop wasn't lawful. It wasn't a lawful stop. It wasn't. So it was all bullshit.

So any of the straw man that anyone wants to make, that anybody wants to make, in order to protect the American status quo in the situation that this guy is out the window. We didn't get a chance to catch our breath. our collective breath. Because as we were catching our collective breath, Dante Wright was killed in Minnesota.

The situation where a 20-year-old man was pulled over by the police officers, I think they say he was pulled over because he had something. He had expired plates. He had expired plates. Okay, so he had expired plates. Which, mind you, is common right now in COVID

because so many people have either had issues getting to the DMV, getting plates, because it's so hard to. get into. It's actually quite common right now for people to have expired plates. They, they, uh, they pulled this young, young man over. He had his fireplates. They ran them. He had a warrant. The warrant, as I understand it, was for misdemeanor charge. Okay. He had a warrant. They tell him he has a warrant. They start, uh, cuffing him. They're going to take him to jail. He slips out of the cuffs, uh, jerse's arm, tries to get into the car.

and I guess invade the police, a senior officer pulls out what she thinks, she claims she thinks, is her taser, it's actually her weapon, and she shoots him, he drives for a couple of blocks, Dante Wright is dead. Okay, I watched this video. First of all, Rachel, did you watch the video?

I did watch the video. What were your thoughts when you watched the video? I watched it in real time. I watched it the first time they showed it when the chief of police said, I'm going to show the video to the press. I just happened to catch it right then and there. I couldn't believe it.

But I guess what I couldn't believe in that I was seeing as she was yelling taser, taser, she pulls out her gun, she shoots one shot and then she says, oh my gosh, I shot him. And you actually see from the cam another officer, a black male officer who looks shocked. Like they almost can't, they're stunned. They're standing there.

They're stunned. It's like they can't believe what's happening. And then I hear the police chief say it was an accidental. we believe it was an accidental shooting. And I think that phrase has continued to ring over and over and over again in my ears because I'm hearing you talk about a senior officer. I'm hearing you say it was an accidental shooting. And I'm not connecting the dots here.

How does a very senior officer make that type of mistake? I'm not understanding it. It was so hard to watch. I'm telling you, Van, like, even as we were preparing for this podcast, we were going to talk about one issue. I did not think that we were going to have to end up talking about this and having seen the video at the same time. I, like, I, I don't know.

Go ahead. You can talk. I understand. I understand. I get it. I watched the video. From the time that he tries to wriggle free and is trying to get in his car to get away,

there's about six or seven seconds that she has in her hand, what is her firearm and not a taser. And if you watch the video, it seems like an eternity. Now, in my estimation, if we're talking about a bunch of people

who don't have the wherewithal to do their jobs, then we need to talk about taking those jobs apart. Because we need to keep people safe. Forget about all the emotion that's going to come from what it is that we're talking about. The question is, very simple, how do we keep black people safe from getting killed by the cops? Like, how do we do that? I don't know. She's mistrained. The other guys are scared. There's always an excuse as to why someone either gets pepper spray, or chalked out. That's it. There's always an excuse. Why were so many police officers at the same? That's another thing I couldn't understand. This was a routine traffic stop. Why were there multiple police officers there?

Why were you calling for backup? I don't understand the situation. Like, you obviously were scared. You felt threatened in some kind of way. And to me, there seemed to be no need for that. Expired plates. Misdemeanor. why was that the situation? Why were you already coming into the situation that hot? That's part of the problem. Right. Like coming to be the marauding force of whatever it is. And it seems like all of this stuff is some sort of perverse reaction

to anyone challenging a police officer authority. In the case of Lieutenant Nazario, that cop who is who was now fire, his name is Joe Gutierrez, he was so incensed. So incensed. He lost himself. So incensed.

And nothing saved Lieutenant Nazario from that fear and humiliation. Not the fact that he was dressed fully in his fatigues or that he is, an army officer in the medical corps. As a matter of fact, Gutierrez de-ranked him.

Gutierrez lieutenant said, what are you a specialist or a corporal? He goes, no, I'm a lieutenant. I'm an officer. In this country's armed forces. Know what's going on. A lot of people out there making a lot of excuses. Hey, don't run from the cops.

Hey, just comply. hey, whatever. Hey, don't fucking kill us. Hey, you're trained officers. You don't get a get out of jail free card every time. Oh, you know what? That's not true. Yes, you do. You do get one.

Yeah, you do. Here's the deal. When the video of Lieutenant Nazario came out, I went on Twitter and I asked for police officers to come on the podcast today. so we could talk about this issue. This was before what happened with Dante Wright. I wanted to call it off. I think we both feel very emotional about this.

But we asked and people responded, so we're here on the podcast going to be about our word. We have two detectives coming on from the Baltimore City Police Department. They are Ralph Gordon and Dre. Severino. They have a podcast called The Silverback Chronicles. We are going to take a break. And when we come back, we are going to try to talk out the festering, decrepit, decaying wound that is American policing with two members of the American police force. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and making a mess.

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Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This interview is actually taking place because after the events, of this weekend, specifically the first event with Corona Nazario in Virginia being pulled over. I decided that I wanted to talk, that Rachel and I would be good for us to talk to some police officers to try and figure out what's going on with policing in America. Like, incidents like this happen all the time, and we talk amongst ourselves, but it seems like

we're caught up in this never-ending cycle. And so I wanted to talk to cops about this. and unfortunately, while I put out that request, another, dare I say, well, definitely more serious incident happened in Minnesota, where 20-year-old Dante Wright was killed by a police officer who apparently they're saying she thought she was going for her taser. She went for her weapon. She shot him once. He died. So two gentlemen responded to me. A lot of cops did, but I checked out some of these guys and stuff, and I thought it was pretty interesting.

They had an interesting perspective. Detective's Ralph Horton and Dre Severino. Am I getting that right? Yes, sir. Detective Dre Severino. Detective Dre Severino of the Baltimore Police Department. There are also hosts of a podcast called The Silverback Chronicles. But watched a little bit of the podcast. in this podcast. Rachel, did you watch any of it?

I saw a little bit of it. A little bit of it where you guys said that not all cops are bad cops and you wanted to do the podcast to be able to prove that to people. It's, to be honest with you guys, becoming increasingly more difficult to believe that.

So I guess what I'll ask you guys right now before we even get into the nuts and bolts of this is what is a good cop at this point? Well, I start off first, You're looking at them. I'll tell you why. Because we were born and raised in New York City, Long Island.

We know what it is to grow up with police officers. We know what it is to get out into community policing. See what I'm saying? We never wanted to be treated a specific way. So when we police, we treat everyone with the utmost respect. I mean, that's the biggest thing. You know, the biggest thing nowadays is community police. listen, we've been doing that since we got on the job, you know?

There's nothing like getting out of your patrol car going to speak to a business owner or going to a high block and talking to the guys on the block, just so they can get familiar with who you are. And it's all about respect. I mean, it's a rat race. They know what we're here for. You know, it's not nothing crazy what we're doing. But you build that respect by getting out of your car speaking to them like a man.

Hey, how you doing? My name is Officer Harden. Yeah, I just got it on the job. I've been here for, you know. Once they see your manner, and they see your dialect, they know you're not from that area. So how do you, you know, how do you break that down? By being real women.

Yeah, I'm from New York. I have fun. What do you like to do? So I, I no doubt believe what you two are saying about yourselves. But then I think where, what Van and I struggle with and what a lot of people struggle with is you're a part of this bigger system. And as Van said in his introduction, it seems to be this never-ending cycle where you're afraid to look at the news or a notification because it seems like it doesn't stop happening. So for us, as black people, as citizens in this country, how do we continue to have faith in the system that you're a part of? The system as a whole.

Well, you know, unfortunately, it's unfortunate. But it's individuals that make the bads look bad. It's not the whole department. And with these two incidents that happened, you know, one person lost his life yesterday afternoon. That's horrible. That's horrific. May you rest in peace.

Absolutely. God bless his soul. Donuts us to his family. But more, you know, at the root of it all, that's training. That's training within that department. Those officers didn't have, they weren't trained to go out there and handle that situation the way it should have been handled according to them. And that's a sad part of policing.

Like, for example, when we have, we have our tasers on one side, and we have our hand weapon on the other side so that that confusion doesn't happen. I mean, every department has their policies and procedures. And I'm speaking as Rob Wharton. I'm speaking as a detective for him, even though I do it as a profession. Now, I don't know what their policies and procedures are,

but I know policing. And getting out, just like the incidents that happened in, was in Virginia, with the second lieutenant. That situation was disgusting. And when we read the report online, it's insane how he could justify that calling the Harris Car Stop. I tore it in the Academy.

That's not a Highest Car Stop at all. Even when he wrote in his report that they were driving slow. So I consider that a Harris Car Stop. That's not a Highest Car Stop. So check it. Even if he said it's a Highest Car Stop, right? He put in there, the officer put that the individual was eluding police. Okay, cool.

You conducted a car stop. right? What did your investigation lead you to what you got on scene and started talking to that individual? Where's the threat? Why is there a need for pepper spray? For what? The man has his hands out of the window and he's complying with him. At the end of the day, you still having address yourself as an officer. You still didn't completely conduct the car stop by saying, sir, how are you doing? My name is so on. So I'm from this police department. The reason for the stop is none of that was conducted. So therefore, they was doing it right. wrong thing. Not even

the violent-bited policies and procedures set forth for them in that department. Right. So they need to go. Right. So this is my thing. And I'm going to be transparent with you guys. You guys sit on on YouTube, excuse me, you guys said on Twitter that I had to be ready for the real

when we're going to have this conversation and you guys are giving off real energy. So I'll be honest with you. I don't think there are any good cops. Okay. And I'll tell you why. The reason why I don't think there are any good cops is because we're talking about several different instances here of situations to where training seemed to be either insufficient, okay, or that the training wasn't followed.

And that does even get me started on another situation that's happening in Minnesota where Derek Chauvin put his knee on the back of George Floyd's neck for over nine minutes and George Floyd died later for us to find out that he's not supposed to be doing that. Okay. So apparently the training doesn't matter because we're looking at different parts on the map. We're talking about Virginia. We can go back as far as Eric Garner. We can talk about anywhere where these things happen and cops are doing things that they shouldn't be doing. That goes back to me. Okay. I'm sorry. To me, the thing that keeps citizens safe against police who are armed, right, is standards. And it seems to be. to me that the cops

in situations like this aren't adhering to those standards. So explain to me what's not happening then. Like what's not working? Because a lot of these things you said before that it's unfortunate.

It's not unfortunate. It's tragic. He's dead. So, and that's because somebody is mistrained. To me, it seems like policing is something that needs to be taken apart in America. Am I wrong? Van.

I wouldn't even say it's mistraining. That comes down to the individual at that moment. Because the training has kept him and I safe. And everyone that comes across in this violent, really violent city of Baltimore City, where we can go to any hood, we go to any neighborhood and be fine. Why?

Because we treat people with respect. Now there's certain circumstances where things get a little hectic, right? If you listen to our podcast, we were the first ones to say what happened with, please give me his name, I'm sorry,

with Mr. Floyd being rest of peace. That was absolutely wrong. We never treated anyone in that manner. So I would say it comes down to the individual who's not trusting his training. And, you know, it's, and it's a sad

part because people you used to police in their way instead of what they adhered to, what they signed into to do and be followed out every day all day. And those are the stigmas. Those are the rotten apples of the departments. Like there's individuals that made those individual choices. How many rotten apples does it take for the whole tree to be rotten? I agree with you.

I agree a thousand percent with you. But there's more great offices out there than bad ones. There's so much violence that goes on day in and day out that you don't even hear. So what's in place, though, for, I guess I, we hear you. And I do, I do believe that there are good cops. But my thing is, but my thing is, is when, when you see bad behavior or you see a pattern from a particular officer, what's in place to make another officer who is a good, a good cop feel like they can put tell on that cop or report that cop for what they're doing? because I feel like that's what's not happening. I'm sure you see people on the force right now

who you know are not doing things the way that they're supposed to. So where do the good cops fall in holding those cops accountable to avoid the tragic incident that happened today and what has continued to happen in this country? I agree with you, and I'm with you 100%. A lot of them don't have the testicle afforded to say no. Like that instance that happened in Virginia, the secondary officer should have told that.

I'm sorry? The younger cop knew he was wrong. That's what I'm telling you. He should have told he should have pulled his partner and be like, yo, what the hell are you doing? What are you doing? If you see a guy that's in service and he's complying, he has his hands out of the window and he's talking to you,

where's the threat level? And he wasn't talking to you in a high-pitched voice. He's talking to you calm and you're still raising the situation from a five to a 10. There's no need for that. There's no need for that at all. That's disgusting. That's not what we signed up. for. That's not what we do the job. And that's why our podcast was

straight. Because we are bridging the gap. And I agree. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of officers out there just putting the bad stand on his bags. Because people forget, even those officers forget, it's a privilege to do what we do. We put our life's on the line every day. Every day all day. I take pride in that shit. So when I see a dirty officer, I'm going to slap his ass up and I'm going to send him so you can get jammed up. There's no need for that. We tell them you can't work with us because we're not doing that. There's been instances that we pulled people.

You know, sometimes you get in the heat in the battle, whatever may happen. You get a gun. Somebody may point a gun at you. And once the cuffs are on, the fight is over. It's over. But, you know, we're human and you're still like emotioning. Like, wow, this guy almost killed me. But you have to rely on your partner is to say, hey, hey, hey, stop.

It's over. It's done. We're good. Everybody's good. All lives are saved. It's a gun arrest. He's going to go to jail. You're right.

you got paperwork. See what I'm saying? And that's what we're trying to always. Do you guys believe that there is systemic racism inside of policing? There's racism everywhere in this country. Okay. So I'm talking specifically about as it relates to policing right now, Baltimore obviously had a situation with Freddie Gray some time ago. The reason why I'm telling you guys about this is because we're dealing with two situations

right here that involve car stop. all right. Black men are significantly more likely to be stopped by the police in America than are white men of their same age. Black men at 25 years of age are significantly more likely to be stopped by police officers than white men of their same age. And less likely, contraband is less likely to be found on black men being stopped during that age, and it is of their white counterparts. So it seems to me that no matter where you go, there is a real problem in policing with over-policing black people.

We have two car stops that we're talking about right now. Both of them, not serious at all. One of them ends in a death. The other one ends in the degradation and macing pepper-spurrying of a man. Or is there something in policing that is unfairly targeted towards black people. Hell no.

Hell no. Man, let me tell you something. So you're saying, you're telling me right now that with everything that we're seeing, because you don't think in any way that black people are unfairly targeted by the police. It's documented. It's a fact that that, that, that, that, that is true.

And that, that's a fact. I'll give you that. But he just said, no, you just said, yes. It's documented that that is true. more blacks are stopped. But from my perspective, I don't see it that way. Not with what we deal with. I can't talk about every jurisdiction and what they go through. I can talk about what I go through and what we see in one of the worst cities in America. So in my perspective to say, to answer your question, it's a numbers game, right? Here in Baltimore, predominantly the city is 90% black. So you're going to

have more black people stop. But let's talk about middle America, right? Whereas a white officer stopping a white driver. That never makes the papers because it's not sexy. You see what I'm saying? What do you mean about that? I'm sorry? When you say a white officer stopping a white person

for what, why, when, where, how. Right. I mean, it happens all across the country, right? But when it happens in major cities, that's not heavy. That's the clickbait. That's the clickbait. See what I'm saying?

Because it happens all across this country where in Wyoming, there might be somebody being stopped and it's predominantly white. White officers stopping a white person. It just doesn't make the national news because it's not that sexy. A, Van, I'll give you another situation, Rachel, as well. An officer from New Mexico

just got killed. He got up to the car stop. Did everything right? Besides stick to his training. He told an individual, can you please give me the AR rifle that I see next to you? Can you get out of the car and give it to me? And when he got out of that car, do you think he gave it to him?

He gave it to him. He shot him up. And the officer died right there on scene. Now, now, now, now, if he was better trained, he would not, he would not advise that individual to get out of his vehicle and hand him over an AR rifle. Now, that's the training for, and unfortunately it cost him his life. Now, that just happened.

I don't see nobody talking about that. That happened in New Mexico. So what I'm saying is, when I ready to back to these issues, it's individuals making their own personal choice. It's not the department at all. Can I answer the reason why that might not be being, so first of all, I don't think of this. No, go ahead.

No, answer the question. Can I answer the reason why that might not be being talked about? So here's the thing, and I don't mean to be crass when I say this, police officers have a very dangerous job. Anytime any life is lost anywhere, it is a tragedy. Police officers walk around society with guns. They're trained supposedly in de-escalation. They're trained supposedly in crisis situations.

They're trained to handle these things. People who are on their way home coming from the grocery store, going to pick up their kids, they're not. So when you see them die in situations, criminals kill police officers. Police officers kill citizens, both criminals and not criminals. If somebody pulls out an AR-15 and shoots up a cop,

what is the headline supposed to be? The cop didn't follow his training. He got killed by a criminal who wanted to kill a police officer. But if a father or a mother or a son gets into an incident with someone who is supposed to be specifically trained in how to handle that incident and they end up dead, well then obviously people are going to ask questions

about how far and how well American policing goes and works. And I'm going to be real with you. I haven't heard any answers to any of these questions. Not from you guys and not from the people that we talk to every single time we have this conversation. We're talking about the fact that officers aren't trained well. Well, what we got to do to train them well?

Well, that's the thing. I said they are trained, but At the end of the day, it goes, it boils down to them being an individual and making an individual decision as towards being an agent of your department and acting accordingly to the law set forth in that department. I can't make, I can't tell you why he did what he did. I can only tell you it was, they need better training. As for the gentleman of 20-year-old that passed away yesterday, I saw the video on that. It was disgusting. It was disgusting.

And the thing was, he complied. He got out of his car. and he had his hands, and he had his hands behind his back. The officer failed to put the cuffs on him correctly, and then when his partner came, that's when the end of the trial, go inside the vehicle, and pull off.

You didn't bring him to the back of the car either. What the officers should have done? They should have pulled them out of the patrol car, out of his personal car like he did. Instead of cuff him right there at the front door, he should have took him to the back of the back of the car, search them, cuffed them, that's it. No harm, no foul.

There's no need for all that extra stuff. Should or woulda couldas aren't helping what's happening right now in our country. And I think that's what's so frustrating and where Van is coming from, too. I hear y'all keep saying it's an individual and you keep saying they don't have enough training. But obviously saying those things isn't fixing the problem. And so we're at a place right now where we're tired of being told, you know, like calm down and trust the system. We're tired of being told, hey, that's just an, that's a, that's a, that's a rotten apple. We're tired of being told they weren't trained properly because none of that

is saving lives. People are still out here dying unnecessarily. So my question to you is, you both, is then what can be done? Because just blaming it on a, blaming it on training or blaming it on a certain individual isn't fixing the problem. It's a systematic problem, right? That's, you know, like, that's why we say it's systemic. That's, that is how that is, you have to admit that because it's continuing to happen within this system. So in your opinion, what should be, what should happen to hold these officers accountable when they lack proper training or when they're a rotten individual within the system? Because it's got to be more than just suspension, than just firing, and then they can go to another, join somebody else's force, which is why we're

right now fighting this whole qualified immunity thing. I really would love your opinion on whether or not you agree there should be a qualified immunity. What should happen to an officer when they do do something like this, when they're rotten, when they don't do the proper training, especially with Dante Wright, who it was a senior, quote, a very senior officer who pulled a trigger and shot him instead of pulling the taser. So you can speak on the qualified, right? But I just want to add this into the mix, right? We're dealing with individuals, right?

Now, Van, let me ask you a quick question. what terrifies you? Are you scared of snakes? I'm scared of snakes. I'm scared of snakes. I'm scared of cops. That's what terrifies me. Okay, cool. All right. And ma'am, what scares you?

I'm going to agree with Van. The police. Fine. So here you have each individual. I get you go with cops. You never, everyone has a different threat assessment. and a lot of people are not put into a position. I believe Mike Tyson said,

everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face, right? There's certain people that are put into certain situations that they don't know how they're going to react until it happens. Do you understand what I'm saying? Are you talking about the police? Because the police are trained for these situations. No, no, no, I'm talking on a human level. On a human level, whether we're police officers or...

Don't accept it. And I'll accept that. And my man, I don't accept it. I think it's dangerous and getting people killed. The reality is the police, we are feeding billions of dollars of taxes all over this country. It's a training police officers so they know what to do. And the reality is nobody wants to talk about creating other public safety apparatuses for police. Nobody wants to talk about diverting some of that money.

But then when a police officer misbehaves, we say they're human. I understand that police officer that's a human. And if you can't handle a high-stress situation, please go be a used car salesman. I agree. So what I'm saying is I get that people that are human. But where you're signing up for a job that's supposed to in a degree make you more likely to de-escalate a situation to where you can apply the stuff that you've learned for a safe outcome for the citizens you're trying to protect.

So I'm a human thing. I cannot begin to accept that explanation as to why these things keep happening. Now, that's on the side. I would love to hear what you guys have to say, because Rachel asks a fantastic question. I would love to hear what you guys have to say about qualified immunity. Absolutely. I think every officer should be held accountable.

If they messed up, they got to pay for it. It just comes with the territory. I agree to 100%, Rachel. I agree a thousand percent with it. That's the only way you're going to stop. Unfortunately, it's the only way you're going to stop and actually hold officers accountable for their actions. But also, with policing, listen, nothing easier about police. So even if you're making a decision instantaneously and it was the right decision, you're still going to be,

you're still going to be talked about that. Well, you didn't have to kill him. Even if it was a phenomenal good shoot, you're still going to have the people saying, well, you shouldn't have did that. Now, that's the only thing what bothers me. It's like, if I did the job like I'm supposed to have and made the right call when I had to,

you still want to sue me? Give me an example of a situation where you feel like... It could be in a situation where there was a good shoe and somebody lost their life. Well, can you think of it? because we have dozens of examples over the course of the, like, can you think of any one of these that was a quote-unquote good shoot to where an officer was unfairly criticized for the way one of these things turned out?

And I asked that question, I asked that question sincerely with no malice because I'm, I'm interested in what do you, what do you think? Give me one of these that was a good shoot to where you feel like. Well, I'll give a good example of one of our, um, uh, One of our guys that we had on our podcast, he's a supervisor. He got involved in the foot pursuit. A gentleman, he got involved with the foot pursuit, pulled out a firearm.

Pointed at him, he told him drop it. He didn't drop. So he had incapacitated that individual. Everything by the book. Foot pursuit, drop the gun. Foot pursuit, drop the gun. Not listening. He incapacitated the individual.

He's still trying to get, the family's still trying to get, suit that that sergeant now. But why? Why? It was a good shoe. Well, why? Because probably, why? Probably because they're grieving. Look, I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. And the reality is, if you train your gun, I don't, you don't have to be a cop.

I got a shotgun under my bed. If you come in this crib right here and you put a gun on me, if I got that, you're going to sleep. Okay? So, so I, so I, I get that. You got to write the bear on. I agree. Yeah, and I get that. And I understand. that, right? I'm going to protect my family and protect my household. The reality of that is that the gun is where it is, where it needs to be. I'm not around

here talking about how big, making a big deal about wanting to hurt people or having guns. I grew up in a place where we had firearms, where we had weapons. And so I have one to defend my home. Okay? I'm not, I don't think anybody is talking about what you're talking about. And I

get it, I understand it. I don't think that qualified immunity is meant for that. I don't think anyone's talking about that. I think If a situation where any American would be armed and has a gun on them and they can't talk to the person reacting with deadly force in that situation, nobody is going to begrudge you that, especially after an investigation proves whatever, whatever. But in these situations, we're talking about, by and large,

the overwhelming majority, we're talking about unarmed black people. We're talking about black people that were running. We're talking about black people that were stopped for poverty crimes. like selling loose cigarettes or allegedly using the 20, a collar fit 20, killed, extinguished before our eyes, and those are layups. And so to me, I'm not even looking at it,

and God forgive me for using those people's human lives as a layups. I'm talking about we can't use an exception of what if there's a good shoot. We're talking about the bad ones. And I just agree with that. I just gave you an example of why officers shouldn't get held civil liable if it's a good shoot.

That's a great example because it's happening. And they have phenomenal shoots. But we're still being held liable. Why? Because we did our job. And we did it to a T. So I agree with these last two instances. Go ahead.

I'm sorry, Rachel. You have something else from day? No, no, no. Finish. It's a conversation. We don't have to do the whole order of things. I love it. Let's just talk.

Yeah, yeah. So we got 10 years on. So we got 10 years on. You don't think we've been in those situations where we approach a guy that's selling loose cigarettes and the outcome came out beautiful. And that's why I never made news. I've been, I had guns pointed at me. I've been in fights and it's the job. But we have the training.

This is why we created the podcast to also let everybody know that, yes, we are police officers. But in the 10 years, we have zero, zero deaths under our belt because of the way we handle people. Can I ask you a question? And that's just the way we handle it. So here, which is trained a little bit different. And we, we trust our training. I'll tell you one thing. You have, you have a question.

I'll ask you guys both this. Then you have zero deaths, which is a, just a shocking bar for success on the job. Well, Van, it's not shocking because he in Baltimore City. I don't know if you know, but cops are killing people all the time. It's busy down here. But cops are routinely. cops are killing people in Baltimore?

No, no, no. Routini cops are dealing with one of the deadliest criminals that this country has to offer. Fair enough. Okay. No, go ahead. Go ahead. My man.

My bad, my man. And, you know, there's, it's always a positive outcome because of the way we treat people. It's only, it's only, it's only how you say and how you say. We've had, we've had, we've had, we've had, I don't even want to mention gangs, but we've had gang leaders see us, and they're like, you know what? I respect you guys. Today's not the day.

And it's a mutual respect as crazy as it sounds. There's no need to poke the bear. You understand what I'm saying? So, I'll ask you this. You say you have zero deaths in 10 years on. Can each of you say

that you have zero brutality complaints? Absolutely. Okay? My phone is clear. I would like you to call our ID and ask them. No, I'm just making sure. Of course.

Look. Look. We love them with them. Van, we could walk through Baltimore City without... I go to Baltimore City all the time, right? Yeah. With no handgun. Because I know I'm okay.

Why? Okay. I know I've treated everybody I've come across with respect. But is there a level of comfortability coming from you because of the way that you look? Because I think what we're seeing in a lot of these cases, sorry, that's my dog. It's okay. What I think we're seeing a lot is this... people feel automatic, there's this perceived threat coming from officers when they approach a certain person that they're pulling over or that they perceive to be more threatening than they are.

You seem to be very comfortable because of where you, like you started off talking about where you come from, who you are, how you present yourself, or maybe another officer feels a little bit more scared. Is there? And so I think I see a lot of people talking about racial sensitivity training or the lack thereof. I think that's an issue that we have yet to talk about right now in this conversation because some people feel more like they're really to put their hand on the trigger just because they feel that there's a perceived threat when there isn't one just based off the way a person looks. Right.

So we have a good friend of ours. He's the Italian Stalin. That's what we call him. He's an Italian American man who can go to any neighborhood in Baltimore City and be fine and why because of the way he treats people. Respect. Italian, you know, fair skin, everything. He's never had.

had a problem because he treats everyone with respect. Rachel, I agree a thousand percent with you. But in order for there to be changed, that's why I said it's good for our white brothers, our white sisters that have been came and not used to the city that don't understand the culture. It's good for them to get involved and dive right in. Go out and introduce yourself. The only way you can get across that is by breaking their barrier.

you got to have uncomfortable conversations to get across anywhere or to make a change. So I love, are you from this area? No, I come with me. We're going to go out. We're going to talk to the boys on the block. We're going to talk to our business owners. You got to get out of your comfort zone

and talk to these people and bridge that gap and build that rapport. Because that's the only way, that's the only way things are coming together. And that's the only way you'll really seek change. Because, oh, it's funny. We had a lieutenant from the fire department and we had them on the podcast, right?

So everything went well. It was a great, the interview was great that we conducted. And then he got to the point where he said, you know, when I get out of work, I don't deal with police. I really don't like police. And he's like, huh? And he got over 21 years on. He's a lieutenant in the fire department. So I said, over your years of service, how do you still not like police?

And he's like, well, you know, I had a situation. when I was young and an officer made me, you know, I had to put my knees down and glass and he made me get down face floor on the concrete. So I understood that. I said, broke my heart. And it's bad. And I said, yo, you carry that with you all these years, bro?

And he said, yeah. And I said, well, you know, it's unfortunate because I would think him being on the job for over 20 years, we work hand in hand with the fire department. So I would think, you know, the rapport and everything, be there. But people still carry that. And I understand that. But that's why, you know, that's another reason why our podcast was created because we're all about building a

bridge and the gap. Right. It's interesting with the fire department, like, if the fire department came over to your house to rescue a cat out of a tree and it ended up burning your house down, I don't think you'd ever, I don't think you'd ever, you'd ever forget that. Tell you guys a story real quick. And then I want to ask you a very direct question. When I was 15, I'm in my driveway. 15-year-old kid in my driveway. What city? What city? What city? Baton Rouge will be. in. Okay. So 15 them in my driveway. I'm doing my homework, right? I like the last coming in. Yeah. Cops, cops could have cops come around. They,

they see me. They say stand up. You got anything going, you know, pat me down, pat my pockets down and stuff like that. I'm like, what's happening? I'm in my driveway. When I say I'm in the drive. I'm not like my, don't even go out. Like, I was on punishment. I couldn't leave off the house grounds. So I'm just wanted to be outside. I'm in the driveway, sitting down doing my homework. Cops stand me up. They cuff me. Walk me over. Like, like, do whatever. They're checking out whatever they have to check out. I'm like, I'm 15 years old. But at that time, I'm about 6'4 now. At that time, I'm probably like 6162. I fit some sort of description. They're asking me all kinds of questions and stuff. I didn't even know enough about the world to be scared.

It wasn't until my father got wind of that. That that was, it crystallized me with a big deal that was. Hadn't done anything. Cuffed. And then let me go. Go back and I go back and sit down. People lose it, right? For me, growing up, the cops were the predators.

Like the police were the one. See all the violence that went in, that went on in South Baton Rouge? I understood that. What I didn't understand was why you would put me in handcuffs for doing my homework. And I give you guys a million dollars worth of credit

for coming on this podcast today, especially in the times that you're in right now. Couldn't give you more credit. But I do not believe in policing anymore. I wish I did. Come to Baltimore. come to both. I want you come to

I wish I did. I wish I did. You too, Rachel. No one would want it to be this way. I wish I did. But I don't believe in it. Let me ask you one question. Baltimore City has a 500.

And by the way, I am coming to Baltimore. I'm dead serious. I will because we did the podcast on the wire and the people keep asking me to come down there. I am going to come to Baltimore. When I come to Baltimore, I'm going to tap in with y'all, for real.

Seriously. We want to see your t-shirts, so we need to address the bar. No, but tap in. We'll take care of you. So $550 million police budget in Baltimore City. I think it just got cut a little bit more. It might be haircut down to like $59, 510 or something like that. People talk about defunding or sort of not defunding, redirecting police dollars.

Do you think it makes sense Baltimore City to have a $500 million police budget? Couldn't two, $250 million of that? money be spent in areas where people needed to set up public safety commissions, to set up other things that enrich communities so that we're not just bandating these situations with more guns and more troops, that we're actually dealing with them from the ground up. When people say defund or divest from the police, why is that such an incredibly dirty word or dirty phrase to people that are supposed to want people to be safe? Of course, they would be more safe. But, if there were more resources, right?

Absolutely. I don't think it's a dirty word. I just think we need to have a clear understanding on where the money's going to. Because I agree wholeheartedly, these young kids out here, they got no direction. They used to be PAL PAL sentence.

There's none of that here anymore. Hasn't been here for a long time. So I'm more, I love that. I love that. Listen, I also want to implement boxing. Give him something to do. These kids need something. They need a place to go to after school.

They need to know that they love. And that's not just from the police. That's from everybody. You know, it takes a bill as to raise a child, and that's true. I do not mind if they cut out budget and then put in the money in a program

where they're taking high school kids that maybe do not want to go to college and they want to become an electrician or a plumber in a tray. But that's above our pay. I mean, we got a harbor. Teach them how to fish. Teach them how to fish.

We had a Baltimore City candidate that was running for mayor. and he said if we teach them how to fish, one kid will become a cook, one kid will become a chef. You see what I'm saying? One kid will buy a boat and actually be the fisherman.

And we believe in that. Wholeheartedly. You can take the money out of my budget if I know kids are learning a trade. I'm absolutely with that. But, you know, certain things happen that's above our pay grade that, you know, we're not at the freedom to speak about.

Right. You got anything else? I just want to ask you a general question. In light of what is currently happening right now in our country, when you look at cases like what happened in Virginia, when you look at what just happened in Brooklyn Center, when you look at what's happening currently in the trial in Minneapolis, are they to you more of a result of how policing works in America?

Or does it have to do more with our ongoing struggles about race or around race in this country? I think it's accumulation of everything. And police reform needs to be in every department. Because of course, you know, old policing and traditions back then, I can't speak about that. I can only speak about the tradition that I'm in and the new style of policing, which makes sense. Because we're about what, six years post-Freddie Gray? We're the poster child for police reform.

So the department has changed. And I love what we do. We love working in Baltimore City. It's phenomenal. I advise everybody to come out here. But I agree. I agree with you, Rachel. I think it takes everybody to come and make this change.

And, you know, the build reform. Reform is great. It's only going to put, it's only going to put the best product out there to serve and be that real agent for your department and not do what you want to do, but do what you have to do and what's right and do what's built and purpose for you and follow out your policies and procedures. Also the community benefits are of that. Of course.

You know, they get the best product out there. You know, they get the best help. I'll tell you, one of our episodes is what, hey, Van, look him up. Peanut King. Peanut King was, what can I say? The biggest. The biggest. I do know what you're talking about.

I do. Listen, the biggest, Van, the biggest. Yeah, I do know what you're talking about. He came down. He did 37 years flat federal. He got out 18 months ago, and he came into the interview with us. Knowing he don't, can I be blunt? Knowing he don't fuck with police at all.

And he sat with us for about two hours. If you listen to the interview at the beginning, the first 20, 30 minutes was a little rocky. Because, of course, look at his background. Look at what he's there for living. He didn't trust us. And now he's coming to two detectives that he don't even know from Adam. And as he sat and spoke with us,

you can see the building rapport. About an hour into it, oh, we had so much fun. And he understood what we was trying to do in bridging the gap and really getting out there because we come from it. Trust me. He actually invited us. He invited us. When he left, he came back 20 minutes later and stayed for another two hours.

He invited us because he's setting up a community, like, center. He invited us to be a part of it so that the little kids can see that. You know, now all police officers are bad. But I love the conversing. I love the question. What else you got? We're cooking. Michelle.

We're about to let you out about. So, so last thing I say to y'all is this. And then look, I would like to believe in some of the stuff that you guys have said here today. I just, American policing is either one or two things. It's either fundamentally and irreparably broken. Absolutely. Or it's operating just as it was in terms. intended to the entire time.

I agree. Both of those things are chilling. I don't know how we reconcile. You guys are on the ground there in Baltimore, and I don't know your hearts, but I know what we've talked about right now. The only thing I can ask is if you see people that look like me,

people that look, people, period, being treated poorly by police, please, please put blood in front of blue, put human beings in front of a shield or a badge or a uniform because they're supposed to be protecting us. Right. And we keep getting chalked out.

So what I'm trying to say is, I don't know what the fuck got to happen, man, but something got to give in this whole situation, bro. That's why I know you just met us, but that's what we stand on. That's what we do every day. And that's what we preach to our fellow coworkers. We put blood before blue.

We put respect before anything. And we look at everything, not as a color, but good or bad. And that's it. There's no gray area. There's no gray area. Either you, you know, you got a gun and you got to go to jail because, you know, you're bothering, you know, mist after that's, you know, trying to go to the store. You got to go. But other than that, it's all either good and bad and blood before blue, always.

And that's why we have such a great reputation in any. neighborhood in this town. I think he's going to take all of us along with you and Rachel, you guys are doing us as well. Let's continue to build. Let's continue to converse. Let's continue to reach other people. Because that's what it's about ultimately. We should all be in this for the same common goal. Absolutely. And we don't mind it because we're the only ones doing this in this lane. You're not going to get the swag. You're not going to get the skin, smelling good. You're not going to get none of that from nowhere else but us. And how we bring it to you. It's raw, but it's true.

I guarantee you you're not going to find another police podcast that talk how we talk. I appreciate you, brothers, for stopping by today, man. Yes, thank you. Thank you for being here. Civil Backchonicals.com. We appreciate it. Shout it out again, so, like, real clean, so everybody know, where they're going to find y'all at? www. www.

www.com on Instagram is Civil Backpon, P-O-D. And don't forget, we appreciate you. We love it. You guys got a red carpet. Come to the town. We'll take your hand. Hey, Van, Van, Rachel, come to Baltimore, I'm telling you, we got a spot. Fell's point, we got a spot for you. I'm coming down there. I'm coming down there.

I don't want to have to rat y'all out, though. I don't want to have to be, you know, I don't want to have to. You know what I want to? You guys are with us and they're with us. That's it. You're good. All right. All right, job.

All right, peace, brother. Thank you. So much for being here. He's safe. Thank you. Peace and love. Same to you. Okay, Rach.

Did you learn anything from that? No. I learned to. Nice guys. I was going to say, I learned who they are. I learned what they do. But as far as our questions are concerned, unfortunately, we didn't get any answers. I didn't get any clarification.

I didn't get any understanding to how the system works, how we feel within it, and where we go from here. Didn't get any of that, unfortunately. Right. Seems like too well-meaning guys. Exactly. It's going to take more than nice cop. to fix American policing. It's going to take systemic overhaul

and a hard look at the decisions that we're making with the resources that we have. It's a serious conversation. And I think they know that. Okay. So, Patrice Cullors, do you know who that is? Yes.

She is one of the founders of Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter, you guys, if you didn't know this, you're probably a Karen if I have to explain this to you. But yes, Black Lives Matter is both a mantra and a specific organization. True's Colors, one of the founders of that organization.

It was recently, I don't know if this was discovered or somewhere reported. I guess reported is the right word. It seems like it was just discovered. that Patrice Cullors has bought four high-end homes in these United States for $3.2 million. So a lot of people are asking questions. Now, this comes on the hills of a couple of weeks ago. It being announced that Black Lives Matter bought in $90 million worth of donations last year.

90 million bucks. So BLM is not just like an organization. BLM is also apparently like a fucking star center fielder for the Yankees. Get 90 million a year. Now, I don't even think that they made that much. Like, yeah, like, what is, what is? Yeah, they do.

I don't think they make 90 million a year. The highest paid baseball player, I think, is Mike Trout. Didn't Mike Trout sign an ungodly contract? I don't think Mike Trout made. I don't think there's anyone in Major League Baseball making $90 million a year. I don't think so. I think there are other athletes who make a lot more, but that's like endorsements and all of that stuff.

No, he makes $33 million a year, Mike Trout does. Okay. Let's look at this. Let's see if anybody makes... The contract is worth $430 million. 430, but it's not for like four years. It's probably for like 10. It's like 12.

So let's see if there's any athletes that made as much last year just in contract as BLM. BLM out here putting up numbers, boy. Highest earning athletes. Looks like there's a couple. Okay, talk to me. Number one, Roger Federer, $106 million. That doesn't count. Okay.

Why? You want American athletes? Because I'll tell you why Roger Federer doesn't count. because Roger Federer, because that's like prize money and stuff, and that's also got to be endorsements and stuff like that. It doesn't matter. That's how much they made. It doesn't matter in one year.

And if we're including endorsements and everything, according to Yardbarker.com, there's five athletes that made that much. Number one was Roger Federer, $106 million. Number two, Rinaldo, $105 million. Number three, Messi, $104 million. Number four, LeBron James, 99.2 million. Number five, and Namar, 95.5.

Gosh, three soccer players. Three soccer. I'm telling you, teach them kids to kick that damn ball. They'd be kicking that ball and making that money. Our child will play soccer. Yeah, so we say this to say, hey, by the way, love BLM. Love BLM. $90 million.

Is there a butt coming? Is there a butt coming? No, no, no, no. There's no butt coming. Okay. That's a lot of money, though. Mm-hmm. So why is that a problem?

Why are we talking about this? It's not a problem. Okay. So, so. So why are you talking about it? So here's the thing. It's just a topic. So Patrice Colors is one of the heads of BLM and she bought all of these houses.

So there are people that are passively, if not outright, accusing Patrice's colors of grift in this situation. Add that to the point that she is a self-described socialist, a lot of people are asking for answers in this situation. one of the people who is asking for answers, fucking forget about what Jason Whitlock has to say. I can't even believe y'all put that in here. Fucking forget about him. But there are other activists who are asking questions

about what's happening with this money. Specifically, heads of Black Lives Matter chapters in other cities. So Patrice is over the like the original. like created it all. Now they're all these local chapters. So specifically heads of local chapters are calling this into question, are wondering where their money is. Who is the head of Black Lives Matter, greater New York City wants a probe. He says if you go

around calling yourself a socialist, you have to ask how much of her own personal money is going to charitable causes. Now, I should say this. Patrice Colors does a lot of things, guys. Patrice Colors That's not what he's saying. He's not saying she doesn't. I know. But what I'm saying is there might be, people might be making a corollary between Black Lives Matter having $90 million which is a lot of fucking money. Okay.

And Patrice Colors buying three houses. Patrice Colors writes books. Patrice Colors, I'm sure does speaking engagement with where she gets paid. I'm sure Patrice Colors is making money away from donations that have to do with Black Lives Matter. You look skeptical and I want to hear from you. Because it's not, nobody is mad at Patrice for making income on the side.

Nobody's mad for her for making income and using her platform to spread awareness about why Black Lives Matter and how we can continue to further that narrative. The problem is that she's a self-proclaimed Marxist, which is anti-capitalism. So the fact that she is out here buying multiple homes. Not one home to live in because that's all we need, right? Right? We only need one home to live. Patrice is buying homes in Georgia, Englewood, South Central L.A.

Is it Topanga Canyon? Is that what it's called? Topanga. Tepanga Canyon. And is rumored to be looking at a spot in the Bahamas with her wife. So what? That doesn't sound like a Marxist. Okay. And that's why people are upset.

That's what it is. So, okay, so maybe she's a bad marxist. Maybe she's not good at it. It's not maybe. She is. First of all, how many homes did Carl Marx have? I don't know. I bet that nigger had a gang-off.

Don't bet in the soon. We don't know. No, no, I'm going to look it up. Look at him. I guess here's my thing. Nobody, I'm not taking away for what she does for BLM. I'm not taking away from that. I'm not mad at her for getting a deal with Warner Brothers.

I'm not mad at her. all deal with Warner Brothers. Yeah. I'm not mad at her for speaking engagements, for writing books, because all she's doing is furthering the narrative. So good for her. I think what people are struggling with is one, these local chapters are saying they're not seeing the money from the $90 million that BLM earned nationally. Not even just what you mentioned with the Greater New York City chapter. You've got Michael Brown's father and Ferguson saying they've never received money from BLM. And they apparently were supposed to give about $21, $20 million plus dollars to these local chapters. And you have other chapters saying they're not getting this money. Yet Patrice is out here buying homes.

Clearly she's a millionaire because she buy a million dollar homes. So that's where people are upset about what people are upset about. Also, you saying you learned at a very young age what it is to be a Marxist. And you believe that. You embody those ideals. So to me, if you embody that, you don't have four homes looking for a fifth home in the Bahamas. You got one. Do we know what she plans to do with these homes?

I don't care that she lives in white neighborhoods. I think all that is bullshit. All that, oh, she lives in a white neighborhood. Forget that. That's not the issue. Do we know what she plans to do with the homes? Maybe she's buying homes. Man, I'm not here to have a conversation on assumptions.

The fact that she owns. And the million dollar home. And the million dollar home she put in her LLC. Yeah, I'm saying. She didn't even put it under her name. So maybe she's doing the Patrice Cullors School of Marxism. And she got different chapters. She got a chapter.

Let me know what you can enroll. Let me know where I can enroll. She got a chapter in the Bahamas. I'll go to the Anglewood one. She got Georgia. Look, I do, listen, I kid, but I do think this. It's the contradiction. It's the contradiction.

I think a lot of people are up in arms about this. I don't expect a vile poverty from anyone who is at the forefront of this movement. I don't expect a vile of poverty. I don't know. I've met Patrice one time. I personally don't know enough about Patrice's colors to say that she is some sort of hypocrite. I think that a lot of people are going to look at that and then say, you know, these things don't align. But I've never had a conversation with her about her views.

Okay. She has, well, no, I'm just saying she has a YouTube video where she talks about being a Marxist. She's like, everyone keeps saying this. about me. She was reading old tweets and then she's like, let me tell you what I am. I am that. And I learned this at a very young age. I'm not knocking her for, I just think it's the contradiction that's hard for people to swallow. I think the fact that some of these local chapters haven't received money, I think the fact that BLM on a national front is not forthcoming about how their money is given out. I think people want to know personally, is she giving money out? Because that embodies also,

Marxism. And so I think that's what it is. I want everybody to understand I am not knocking the work that Patrice has done and continues to do. And I hope to see more of it. It's just the contradiction.

If she never said she... You like this. You like this. You're not going to this. You are full of assumptions. In this segment, that's all you're doing. I think it's... Listen, if she'd never said that, if she was just like, BLM and then she bought four houses. I don't think anybody would have anything to say.

All right. Okay. It's an interesting story. And it gives an, oh, it just undermines. It gives the other side an excuse to point fingers. It gives the other side to an opportunity to try to undermine the work, the beautiful work that she's done. And that's what I hate.

A lot of this comes from people who want to shoot holes in the sincerity of Patrice and other people like that. I'm not asking questions now. No, no, no, look, I get it. I get it. I think that the higher up your perch, the more people want to believe in the purity of your message

and if it doesn't ring true with some people, some people are probably going to have some problems with it. You know what I mean? But, you know, I looked at it and when people were like, she just bought a $1.4 million home, the first thing I thought was in L.A., that ain't shit.

Right. Same. I'm saying. We're looking for a house right now. We're trying to pay around that same amount. Come on, dad. Damn. It's like, it's looking.

It must be nice, Van. No, whatever, man. It's, look, you know you got more money than me. Who sponsors that sweater, Rachel? Well, I'm so glad you asked, Van. This sweater is sponsored by feet. See? See, exactly.

Exactly. Okay. So, but what I'm saying is that, uh, 1.4 million in LA is not exactly that, that, you guys, I don't want to. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money, but it's, but for L.A. For the housing. that are out here. You know what? Go in Zillow and look up a $1.4 million

house in LA. I'm telling you, it's going to stop you from moving out here. You're going to be like, fuck that. I'm staying in Scottsdale because I could get a whole fucking mansion for what, you know, it's just like it doesn't go as far. So anyway, all right. Did you see Saturday Night Live?

Wait, which part? Which part? Do you know what I was thinking of? Yes, I saw it. The iceberg. Bowen Yang playing the iceberg from the Titanic. That was really funny. But yes, I saw Saturday Night Live. It was very funny.

It's very, very funny. I got to admit, it's funny. Did you see Kid Cuddy's performance? I did. So you guys don't know, Kit Cuddy performed Saturday Night Live this past Saturday night night. And he said that he was paying tribute to Kurt Cobain. and he wore an outfit that Kurt Cobain had wore and he also wore a dress

similar to one that Kurt Cobain wore when he was still alive and Virgil Ablo made the dress. This got people going. People were so upset that Kid Cuddy wore a dress. This is very upset. I thought, I got to be honest with you. Maybe I...

Folks. It takes more than a dress. It's like we still get mad over the same shit. Folks. The dress has been around. people being getting mad at guys in dresses to 50s.

Like, what is the dress? Not going to piss people off no more. It's not even shocking. What are you mad about? It's not even that shocking to see. I'm sorry. Could get cutty performed in dress personally? Wasn't a fan of the dress.

That was more of my bigger issue. He said it was going to be a part of, no, I said it was going to be a part of a new line. I said, let me see the rest of the line. I will not be buying that floral dress. But what's the big deal? And he was paying tribute to Kurt Cobain. If you know Kurt Cobain, he was all about, I guess, stopping some of these stereotypes that we have for certain genders.

And he was really an activist back in his day when it wasn't popular. He was wearing dresses. He was for the LGBTQ plus community. He was for women. He was trying to break these things down even before it became trendy like it is now. So good for Kid Cuddy for representing that. Yeah. I mean, all that's true, but at the same time, come on, guys.

Like, I don't like this. Like, we can't, we, we have to, we have to define our, we have to really make rules about our outrage. Okay, so a couple of weeks ago, this was like light work. A couple of weeks ago, Lil Nas X, who we love, by the way, stop with the mail. Stop with the mail. Okay. If we're going to be outraged about the Lil Nas X thing, right? going down there dancing with Satan.

We got to let the dress lie. Going down there dancing with Satan. You can't be mad over everything. It's like, if I'm Little Nause X right now, I'm actually pissed off about this. I'm like, yo, man, that don't mean he don't deserve none of this. Look what I did. I made you question your entire religion.

Who is that? Oh, that's you and Lil Naz X? When did he come through? The Super Bowl last year. This is before he found Satan. So you love, so you turned your back on him. I did not turn my back on him. Stop. Because I'll be honest with you.

Because most people, shout out to all of my homie. Shout out to Jared Hill. We're going to have on the podcast. We still need to have Jared, Jared out of Jerry Hill on the podcast. I talked to so many of my LGBT friends who talked to me about the real significance of the Lil Nas X video and how they felt the body. Now, does that mean that I'm all pro Satan now? No. But it's so interesting to hear a human experience that is so far away from yours being expressed to you in such a moving way.

Not that people should need that from other groups in order to get behind what they're talking about. But it's just very hard to listen to it and not come away like, nah, I see what you're talking about. I get that. I get that. But what I'm saying is, we got to, like, set an outrage scale. Well, people really? I knew everyone was talking about it.

I did not know people were outraged about it. I thought he looked great. The dress wasn't for me. But if it was in a different design, maybe. But I thought he looked great. Who cares? He's paying a tribute to, people. People just look to be mad.

You see what they're trying to do to us? You see how they're trying to do to us. You see how they're trying to take masculinity, see what they're trying to do. So what they say when Young Thug wore a dress on the album cover? My point is, this is like, what are we doing here? It's like, we've been doing this. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

I don't understand. The only person who ever really escaped this, this type of scrutiny was Prince. It didn't fucking matter. I knew you were going to say that, but Prince didn't wear dresses, did he? But Prince wore whatever he wanted to wear. If you wanted to wear a dress, if you wanted to wear a blouse, if he wanted to whatever. And people criticized it. I don't think they didn't care.

Not like that. Yes, they did. People, it was like, oh, don't, he was vulgar. Don't watch him. Like, that's like, yeah, people, and I love some Prince. Love Missed Prince. Do you know, do you know, Prince? As we're talking about Prince, we're coming up on the anniversary of his death.

You know, he died on my birthday. It was a set. I always remember that. It's always going to be a sad day. Prince is my first concert. So you went to the musicology tour then, didn't you? Yes, I did. I did too.

That's what I get, I get comfort in. It's knowing that I saw him in concert. Getting away from the dour away in which it started. Rachel has to go and remind us that we're coming up on the anniversary of the death. I'm sorry, I'm never going to forget that. I cried on the plane the entire way. I found out before take off. I landed.

Dallas to Dallas. We bitch of Scottsdale. Dallas to Phoenix is one of Scottsdale. I will never forget. Hey, back up off Kit Cutty. You guys, relax. I'm telling you, man. There's more stuff to get mad about Kit Cutt.

Van, what are we going to do? Van, you got a big platform. What you're going to do to make sure they don't take away from the masculine man's facilities and that we can still be masculine and not be as masculine as we're supposed to be. They're trying to demasculate us and turn us into less masculine. Men are stupid. Let me tell you some. I'm here to say

men are stupid. We got enough of y'all out here to remind us, remind us. You think men are stupid? How, quote, masculine you are. You'd say that. I think it takes more of a man to put on a dress on national TV and sing a song than it does to play into certain stereotypes that are associated with your gender. You think that's okay to say,

you think that's okay to just say blanket, men are stupid. Like, we're stupid. You're stupid. I mean. I didn't stutter. I mean, we're stupid. What do you consider to be stupid? Like, why are we stupid? That comment right there. What we're going to do? What we're going to do? What we're going to do? What we're going to do?

You're out here, bro. You know what you're going to do? You're going to shut the fuck up. That's what you're going to do. That's what you're going to do. What's the next time? Ben, we got to stop them. They're trying to use their agendas. Get the fuck out of my face with that shit.

Crazy-ass. What you're going to fuck about what you say? I don't care. About what you say. Who care? All right, let's take a break. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activio Yogurt today for two weeks.

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Carrey Irvin is, we got kicked out of the game this past Saturday. You got picked it out of the game this past Saturday. He got ejected. Minculeeal League were watching the game and Carri Irvin got ejected. He was very upset.

set. Then they kicked Dennis Truder out of the game, too. The Inshruder, should I say, out of the game two. They were both very mad. They were both cooking at this time. Lakers went on to, I smack at a smack the Brooklyn Nets, a much-needed victory for the Lakers. It came out after this that the reason why Kyrie Irvin was kicked out of his game was because he got pissed off that Dennis Schrooter, who is black, used the N-word towards him.

Gary Irvin then took to Twitter and this is what he tweeted and the tweet is still up and what he tweeted was this he said the N-word is a derogatory racial slur it will never be

a term of endearment reclaim flipped never can forget it's foul and true history throw that N word out the window right alongside all those other racist words used to describe my people we are not slaves or ends

This is Kyrie Irvin, who said this. I guess the intruder called him that. He flipped out. Well, he didn't flip out. He got upset. They kicked him out the game. And then he decided that he wasn't playing today because of personal reasons. So, and I'm not saying that this necessarily has anything to do with what happened on the court.

I don't know what's going on with Kyrie Irvin. It could be something very serious or it could be the Kyrie Irving. Society didn't want to play today. Or it could be what's happening right now in our country, which we know he's been very vocal. Very vocal about. Yeah. Very vocal. And by the way,

there's something that they're doing an NBA called load management. And guys sometimes decide or coaches decide for guys that this game is just going to be bad on your body, hard on your body, and I'm not going to play. What do you think about Kyrie Irvin's opinion on the N-word?

I think that's his prerogative. I have, I feel nothing towards it. If he, listen, to each their own, some people are offended by the word. even black people. Some people are not. I have a hard time feeling like his teammates don't say it around him or at him.

I feel like maybe he doesn't like somebody he doesn't know that well saying that. I'm not sure the reason. But I see no problem with this. If Kyrie does not want the word used around him, if he does not want to be referred to that, if he does not want to be called out of his name, then that is his right. And I see no problems with this.

I see no problem with him getting upset. It's not me. but that's Kyrie. You got a problem with it? I don't like it. That's how he feels. He has the right to not be called that word if he doesn't want to.

He does. Thank you. This is my thing. You got to let people know that. Okay. That's an impossible task you're asking upon him. He just did it. Wear a T-shirt.

Now he did. Which is to wear a T-shirt? He just did. But you can't be mad at somebody for saying something that we all say all the time. No, we don't all say it. And you don't, and you can't, we don't all say it. And you can't assume.

Well, Kyri Irvin has said it in the past. And you can't assume that everybody wants to be called that just because they are black. And that's why I feel Kyrie on this. If we all sitting around, I put you like this, is the word fuck a bad word? Yes. And we're all sitting around and you got a home girl.

She's talking. She said something to me. And I'll say, man, get the fuck out of here. We're all sitting around, right? If she blows up on me, goes crazy, there's something off. Because the reality is, number one, that is a accepted vernacular in most of the places that we... If Sam Lindsay was sitting in that circle and you said get the fuck out of here, he would lose his mind. Well, that's why, but I'm not inviting Sam Lindsay.

That you, I'm just telling you. Sam Lindsay? Call Sam Lizzie. Notice, I said one of your home girls, though. And I said one of your home girls because somebody, my age, if somebody, if I'm around one of my elders, it's all different. Okay. That's all different. Because you never know what the sensibilities of your elders are and you have to make sure.

But he's talking to another dude on the basketball court. That's not fair to do that to him. Well, no, what I'm saying, it is fair. it is fair. It is definitely fair because we live in the real world. Kari, hey, bro, don't call me that. And he said that and then he kept it going until he got kicked out of the game. And then he acted as if he acted like Dennis Schrooter was Tyler Hansberg or Tyler Hero or somebody like that.

Doesn't matter. He doesn't take the word from anybody. And I respect that that's how he feels. But you got to let people, that's Rachel, come on. You got to let people know that. What is he supposed to do? Even if he did tweet, okay, we saw the tweet, he said, I don't, I don't want to be called that.

Nothing like that. That doesn't mean that everybody saw the tweet. So how can he ensure that everybody knows how he feels about the N-word? He can't. Well, number one, number one, he, I mean, he blew up on, I think that if you're talking about your brothers and stuff like that, then you got to give your brothers some grace. Dinner Shruder is black.

That's your brother. He's saying something that you don't like. So rather than blow up at him and try to fight him, Hey man, no N word for me. I don't really dig it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then that's it. The real reason, the real thing is there's something between these guys.

He was in his face before Dennis Schroeder said the N word. And when Dennis Trudeau said the N word to him, that's what he really lost it. Because Dennis Schroeder said, damn, nigger. The reason why he said that is because Kyrie Irvin was all in his face. Something was going on with Kyrie Irving at that point. How do we know that Dennis said that? And then Kyrie was like, don't call me that. How do we know Ditteson keep saying it?

We don't, but now we're talking about what we saw. The reality is, look, if you don't be called the N-word, you'll be called the N-word. But if you come in a barbershop and he's on a basketball court, if you come in a barbershop and you get all ruffled up because people are saying the N-Words, you got the problem. Did you see Kyrie's hair last? Did you see Kyrie's hair?

He ain't been in a barbershop. Maybe not. I hope he's okay, though. By the way, I love Kyrie's energy, though. Because the reality is that do you think that, do you think that we need to have a conversation about whether or not saying the N-word is appropriate. Do you think we need to do that? Right now?

No? I mean, I just think it's your prerogative. You either like it or you don't. And I think, and I do agree with you on that point. Like, right? If I didn't like it, I'd be like, I'd be like, could you please stop using it on the podcast? And you probably be like, I don't care what you think. I'm going to say it anyway. Because that's what I say. I liked it. I like it.

I don't care. I like it. I don't care. People say it. Like, people have been saying it to me for a long. time. Language has etymology, right? Etymology. Language has edamome. I know what you mean.

I like to get a little language with my sushi. Language got some edamomone with it. Bring me some sushi and some language. Anemone. So yeah, the origin of the N-word is as putrid as horrible as it gets. and it continues to be that when used in the right way by the right people. But the reality is languages like anything else that exists on earth that human beings have usage of.

It's a tool. It's a tool. And that means use to express some things, language means one thing, and use to express other things, language means another thing. We don't always like the way we get tools, but it doesn't mean that we don't have them. But if we all decide we're going to stop saying it, I'm cool. But for right now, my nigger, nigger.

I'm just, I'm not that woke. I'm just not that woke. I'll be honest with you. Okay. All right. Yeah, so look, we're not going to do Vance very serious question of the week this week because we have a lot of serious questions that actually need to be answered.

This is actually sad. Before we go this week, guys, our producer, Jackson, Saffan, has to say something. So, Jackson, I'll turn it over to you. Sure. Thanks, fan. Weird announcement, but my... I'm leaving Theringer.com this week.

I've been working at Theringer.com for three and a half years. and I've been working on a show for just under a year. 93 episodes. This is a 93rd episode. And so me leaving the ringer means this is my last podcast as the producer of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay. And it was something that I wasn't really expecting to have been working on. I wasn't a podcast producer before this show, at least in this capacity.

But it's been one of, if not the most meaningful, projects of my both personal and professional life. And I really am thankful for the opportunity, thankful to the ringer for giving me the opportunity, and thankful to you guys, Van Rache and Trudy and Isaiah and previously Jordan Liggins for letting me do this and giving me the opportunity to work on this show, a show that I know is really meaningful to a lot of people

and especially to be able to be a person of color, producing a show hosted by two black people at this time in the country, country's history really means a lot and I'm just I'm just really going to miss it. I really am.

I really enjoy the show. I enjoy working with everyone on the team and it's something that it's like I said before. It's just been one of the best things I've ever had the chance to work on. And so I am sad to be leaving

but I will still be listening. I will still be listening. And when you guys get back in studio in this summer or fall or whatever it is, maybe I'll stop by. and say hi, because we're not going to be strangers and I'm still going to be a fan of the pod for as long as it exists. So love you both. Love all the thought warriors.

Love Trudy Isaiah and Jordan. And thank you. Okay. I'm really not going to say too much after that because I, that actually, I am sad. I'm happy for you, Jackson. I'm proud just the beginning of your career. And we definitely will work on some more stuff. But it's, I'm more sad than I thought I would be.

I knew I was going to be sad. No, because I mean, listen, we started this thing at a very crucial time in our country. I mean, the talks were happening before, but our first podcast was May 2020. Jackson has been here from the beginning. So it's not just about losing someone who's a producer on our show. It's about losing family. Exactly. You are a part of the show.

You give input. And so it's just a really sad day. for the higher learning fan at this point. I know this is going to come a shock of so many thought warriors because people will be asking questions about you all the time, Jackson. But as hard as it is to let you go, you know, Van and I always support you in everything that you do. And we just wish you the best.

You're going to be missed. I actually feel sorry for whoever comes in next because I don't know how we're going to be. We don't know, I mean, we don't know the show without you, Jackson. That's just the truth. Well, I appreciate it from both of you. And I'm sure it's still going to be as good as ever. So you don't need me.

It's just you guys doing your thing, you know. But thank you. Thank you, Jackson. All right. Way to start your Monday, there, thought warriors. It's just been a sad podcast all right. The fucking cops on the podcast. The fucking God.

Okay. All right. All right. Uh, you know, no, you know what? Keep the thinking caps on. Keep them on. All right. You'll get to take them off right now.

Bye. I'm Van Lathie. I'm Rachel Lindsay.