Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Raven-Symoné Talks 'That’s So Raven’'s Black Validity, Stephen A. Smith on Colin Kaepernick, and Keffe D Convicted in Tupac Murder Trial

Episode Date: September 4, 2026

Today on Higher Learning, Van and Rachel talk about the passing of Gloria Steinem, Stephen A. Smith’s continued feud with Colin Kaepernick, Raven-Symoné’s recent comments about the Blackness of 'That’s So Raven.' Plus, 20-year-old Pierre Damas Bel commits suicide fearing deportation, eight Democrats vote alongside Republicans to condemn socialism, friend of the show Geno Smith makes a surprise phone appearance and spills the tea on Van’s fraternity life. Then, they talk trials, the guilty verdict in Tupac’s murder, and Lil Durk gets snitched on. (00:00)  Welcome to Higher Learning (06:01) Gloria Steinem Passes Away at 92 Years Old (19:22) Raven-Symoné back in the news cycle (40:29) Stephen A. Smith on Kaepernick vs. Jay-Z (59:20) 20-year-old Haitian commits suicide over deportation fears (1:12:20) Battle of the Bands (with Geno Smith) (1:29:19) Keffe D found guilty of Tupac’s murder (1:44:07) Murder for hire (Lil Durk trial) (1:54:18) Eight Democrats vote to condemn socialism (1:59:00:) Let’s Get Sensual Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Marco Escalante and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Jeff Shearin  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howe Learning is on. V. Van Lathen, Jim. And it's me, Rachel in Lindsay. Rachel, who's better to you out of Cam Newton and Tim Tebow? Cam Newton. He was more versatile.

Tough. It's easy. Like, no shade to Tim Tebow. Not that he's bad by any means. Obviously not. But just like, when Cam came on the scene, it was like, people were acting like, I feel like people become revisionist when it comes to him. when he came out, it was like people

had never seen anything like that before. That's how they were acting. He was a better player. It was a better thrower of the football. Better runner of the football, more horse. But he came on tailgate and he said that he was behind Tim Tebow, he was on the tailgate. He said he was behind Tim Tebow and he knew that he was better than Tim Tebow and this sparked some debate

over who's better. Did he say why Urban Meyer told him that he would be behind Tebow? Well, I mean, at that point, it was pretty evident. Thiebo had been a part of the Florida offense since he was a freshman. So Cam comes in there. It would have been hard to beat out Tim Tejillo who had become a cultural staple there almost already.

He was a folk hero going into his time at Florida coming out of Jacksonville. And so him taking the spot probably wasn't going to be something that was going to happen very easily. But still in his mind, knowing that he was a better player than him, I think it drove him. Then he had some trouble at Florida, goes to Blinn, then goes to Auburn. and then he has the opportunity to go to Auburn and win a national championship and win a hydrogen trophy and get the national championship ring

that Irmaier did not give him is what he said on the show and that's what drove him. But I'm talking about what you could do Cam was better than Tim Tebow. Also, there's no way that he was recruited to Florida and they didn't tell him he had the chance of getting the starting position.

Otherwise, why would you go? There's no way they told him you will play backup behind Tim Tebowton. He said he'd go until he leaves. They definitely had to have told him that you have a fighting chance to win the starting position. Okay. So I'm sure that he must have felt like he could. Yeah. Why else would you go? I mean, you go places all the time. I mean, hold on. Right now, if you, if you sign as a

quarterback at LSU, they're not going to tell you you're going to have the opportunity to come in and beat out Sam Levitt. They're not going to say that to you. But they're going to make it seem like you have, not the first year, but like you've a fighting chance. Not really. Okay, so you just know you're going to come in and play backup every single time? If you are, if you are, if you are a, if you are a phenomenal quarterback that is signing to Texas, you could be the doggis of dogs.

They're not going to recruit you and tell you, hey, next year you have the opportunity to come in here and be Arch Manning. They're going to beat out Arch Manning. and they're going to recruit you and talk about the future. So that you possibly could be waiting three years to play. What's happening here? Now that's not arch right now, but I'm just saying. Yeah, they're going to tell you, I mean, think about it.

If Matt Liner and Reggie Bush are at SC, they're going to recruit you and they're going to be like, hey, you're the future of this program. Now, if you came out there and you looked like the greatest thing that has ever happened, maybe. but there are certain starters that are entrenched at their positions. Of course. And when you come in there, they're not really going to talk to you like you can come in and beat this guy out. I'm not saying the first year. It's why a lot of people redshirt. I'm just saying that I would think that most quarterbacks don't come in thinking I'm going to wait three years.

I would think that they don't think that. Well, I mean, it depends on who you're behind. If you're behind a Heisman trophy winner. Especially now. They'll just leave because of NIL. and all of that. Right, but like, think about, like, what's the greatest quarterback succession situation? Now, there are issues where, okay, let's take Texas.

Vince to. Let's go before that. Let's go Sims and Applewhite. Okay. So if you look at, so back in the day, Phil Sims was an NFL quarterback. His son, Chris Sims, was just this highly touted, just ridiculous recruit. There was a recruit, a guy playing at Texas already, Major Applewhite from Catholic High and Baton Rouge. Oh, is that where he's from?

Yeah, Major Applewhite, Catholic High, Baton Rouge, along with Travis Minor going crazy. Okay. Major Applewhite was a phenomenal quarterback, right? A great quarterback was throwing the ball around, doing really, really good. He did not have the kind of hold on that job to where the five-star that was coming in wasn't going to be able to compete. Like Major Applewhite wasn't the type of recruit, and he didn't have the kind of hold over Texas to where you're not. you're going to tell the big five star that they're not going to have the opportunity to play. But let's say that was Vince Young at Texas.

You're just not going to recruit somebody and come in and go, hey, if you're really awesome, you're going to beat out Vince Young. I mean, that's probably not going to happen. But even if you are that player that's behind that other guy, you still have the chip on your shoulder if you're a competitor. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. You still have the chip on your shoulder. So, like, you know, if you go to Texas in that situation, you have to go to Texas,

doing your best, hoping that you can beat the guy out, but knowing that you're probably going to have to wait. That's why I never understood it. I never understood, particularly at the quarterback position, if there's a guy in there and there's a sophomore or he's a first-year player and he's going crazy, you know that you're going to have to wait. It happens.

Happened at OSU. All right. So you say Cam. It's easy. Easy for me. Easy. And Tim Tebow was a dog, but Cam was the dog. Sad news to start the podcast.

Gloria Steinem, the pioneering feminist journalist and activist who became one of the most recognizable leaders of the modern women's movement has died at 92. Steinem rose to national prominence in the 1960s and 70s advocating for women's equality, reproductive rights, and equal pay while challenging sexism in politics, media, and the workplace. Rachel, your thoughts? I mean, a lot of a lot of. life well lived, 92 years, influential to the very end. I mean, even towards the end, and she was inviting prominent women and influencers and activists to her house, to have conversations, to foster conversations.

I mean, I can only imagine somebody who has dedicated their entire life to activism and to women's rights to see what has happened in our country over the last 15 years to be, like, I'm sure it lit a fire underneath her even more, which is why she continued to fight for activism, politically, culturally, socially, all of that. I think the one thing that as people are doing their tributes and are talking about Gloria Steinem and what she meant and how she lived such a life where she also encouraged women

and made them feel like they can't. whether it was starting the Mrs. Magazine, whether it was her expose on the Playboy Empire, whether it was teaming up with women who did not look like her, and creating a foundation organization in order to bring women together and put money and momentum behind them so they could serve in political office. Everything that she did, it felt like women felt like they could do that too. She represented that in such a way on decades, on decades, on decades. and I feel like she did it in a way. This is going a little bit off,

but I know we talk about gender wars and things like that, but I felt like the way that she talked about activism and women's rights did not do it, she did not do it in a way that put men down. And I think that there was a balance and a beauty in the way that she handled it, but particularly as going back to what I was saying is when I'm talking about how people are talking about her,

it's the way that she worked with black women and the way that she honored their role in the feminist movement is something that will always stand out to me. You know, she's quoted as talking about, she could not do, that one, that black women were, that she learned that feminism was disproportionately from black women. They invented the feminist movement, and then she talked about how they were the foundation of it,

and you couldn't remove them, you couldn't fight for feminism and remove black women from that. And, you know, there's the infamous, picture of her with Dorothy Pittman Hughes holding hands together as they were fighting for the rights of women. And I think that that solidarity as well is why she also just meant so much to so many people. You know, we just talked about Dolly Parton last week. And you had the great line about, you'll be missed, I don't want to misquote you, but it's not remembered, it's that she'll be missed and she'll be missed because of what she meant to so many people.

and in the way that she carried herself and fought for women's rights. So there's probably going to be a deeper interrogation of Gloria Steinem and who she was and what she meant because I do have a lot of people, black feminists that I know that I talk to, that have over the past 10 years been a little bit more critical of the white feminist movement

and how it showed up and some of the cracks and the flaw. us in that. And I'm sure Gloria Steinem's life, which was a life that was about advocacy and a life that was about sort of pushing these intellectual ideas

forward, sure there'll be a time that people, particularly black women, I'm really interested in what black women have to say about this. Would that be analyzed more with a fine-tooth comb? Do they particularly, because I get what you're saying about

white women in the feminist movement? Are they particularly pointing to her as, because, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, so look, Bill Hooks was a friend of Gloria Steinem, and she worked with Gloria Steinem, in a lot of ways that's my North Star in terms of how I view a lot of this,

but also there just are a lot of, there are a lot of people who feel like that Gloria Steinem, people like Gloria Steinem, could have done more, even than what, everything that you said, could have done more

to be either open or politically amenable to the central and unique struggle of black women and feminist movement. There are people who like straight up

that I've talked to recently that have been like this is going to be an opportunity to celebrate Gloria Sinem, but also now that her life is going to remember it in its totality to have an open and honest conversation about what feminism looks

from white ladies. I mean, she called it out. She was quoted as saying that black women are twice as likely to support feminism and feminist issues than white women. I mean, she's on record up until the 2000s making these type of quotes and interviews. Now, I'm never going to expect a white woman to go as hard for black issues like a black woman is going to. It's a lived experience. It's something you feel and you navigate this world every single day. You can only go so far. But I mean, I would be curious, I'm not going to say

that she's perfect. I just, more than other white feminists, and maybe because she was so prominent. And so because she was so prominent, her voice was more out there. I just see her all the way back from the 70s being aligned with prominent black women, supporting prominent black women, getting their voices out there than I do see with other white feminists. As do I. However, and, you know, some of these voices could come on the podcast and speak for themselves, I do think when a figure that is particularly not a pop culture figure, a figure that represents so much movement, so much progress, I think it's actually fair to analyze the version of feminism, how black women fit into that, that we would like. Now, it's not my

my conversation to initiate, it's my conversation to be supportive of. That is why when this happened, I reached out to a lot of people just to talk to them and see what they were feeling. Because once again, you know, my scholarship into this has been a pioneering, trailblazing figure, even, you know, some of the advocacy that she did on behalf of like, you know, the Black Panthers, people like that, other radical groups in that regard. And some of that linking of hands and arms to me is that's it's almost like surface level but I was actually surprised to have some conversations that were like life well lived remember her like exalt her but also we have to talk about that brand of feminism and whether or not that brand of

feminism has ultimately failed or not advanced black ladies. And I was like, oh. You know, oh, go ahead. And so I was like, oh, interesting. Not that I had never heard those critiques before, but it seemed like a lot of people, not a lot of people, some people are waiting to have that conversation now that she's gone because it might have been disrespectful to have it while she was still here. but almost that Gloria Steinem's passing

represents the opportunity for something more. Once I said, I'll let these people speak for themselves. I'll platform. I'd be really interested if they're conflating her with the movement and maybe people who carried it on. Is what she was doing different from maybe the way that other people took the movement and carried it into something else?

Because I would be curious as, I don't know. I think that obviously with 2020, there was like a lot of talk about like white liberal women and that kind of the way that they would talk about things and maybe even there was a centering of themselves within certain things rather than it being about actually what you were fighting for. But I also wonder if some of that is like the coverage.

You know, if Gloria Steinem saying these things that I'm quoting her about how crucial black women are to the feminist movement and how they are more likely to support it than white women. I wonder if the coverage though back then, maybe up until now, her being a white woman centered her rather than the things that she was saying or the people that she was aligning herself with. I wonder how much of it is the fault of the coverage of it wanting to put a white woman out as front and center than it was actually what her ideals and her mission was.

Curious. I don't know. Yeah, it'll be interesting. I'll talk to me. I will say this, though. rest and peace of Gloria Steinem. Did you know this? She was Batman's mom. Yes. She didn't get married until her 60s, and then he tragically passed away pretty good. She got married to Christian Bale's dad,

and she was Christian Bale's stepmom. I did know that, though, like before this. Yeah. I knew that, basically, I don't think I knew that until maybe about, like, three months ago. Like three months ago, for some reason, I just popped up. I was looking up Gloria Siam for some.

reason three months ago it popped up 92 years old life well lived and you know felt like somebody that's in this role of advocacy and stuff like that all you could really hope for is that they did their best yeah we all have blind spots and those oh speaking of blind spots and holes blind spots and holes ha ha ha ha um did you happen to watch yet stephen a smith we'll talk about civia smith later did you watch him on flagrant and funny with jemal and i haven't i think i want to watch it all together because they've only released part one. Yeah, we'll talk about it on Monday.

But I definitely saw the tease, so I figured I'll just watch the whole thing. Yeah. I watched the first part. What a fascinating piece of media. You liked it? Yeah. Do you think that they should have given him the interview? Of course.

Yeah, because, well, no, you know, there was the whole Jalen Rose. He didn't call anybody out particularly, but it seems like he was talking about the fact that Jamel and Kerry were going to sit down. and have this interview with him. Yeah. I agree with you. I think they absolutely should have done it. And I love that it was on their platform. Yeah.

And by the way, if you know someone, if you've had a relationship and a past with somebody, and I think that plays into this interview as well. When you look at this interview, the one reason why I really appreciate it is because it's obvious that these are people that don't want to have issues with each other. And when you, when you have people that don't want to have issues with each other, that means that they're not doing anything just for the sake of...

Likes. Yeah. So they don't want to have an issue with him. It doesn't seem like it. It seems like there's been a lot of restraint on their part in their past and their opinions of him. And so they're able to kind of get to maybe, if not an agreement, an energetic understanding, at least in the first part of why they look. look at things differently. Yeah, yeah.

And he's a good talker. So, like, he's a good talker. All right. So we'll get to that Monday when the whole thing is out. Later on, we're going to talk more about Stephen A. Because some Colin Kaepernick comments came out that he made on his show. The entire press run of the perilous fight has begun. And so I want to correct the record on some things.

And I also want to talk about a video that my mom put in her stories. And this is an important topic for me. My mother put a video in her stories. And I liked the video. And, you know, I haven't even talked to my mom about this yet. But it was interesting that the video was in her stories. Did you watch the video? I did not.

Okay, so we'll talk about it later. I want the video on the screen and I want people to watch it. All right. And I want to talk to mom. I want to talk to mom here on the show. Okay? Jay, did you watch the video? I watched it.

Bernard, did you watch it? I did not get to see it yet. I, like, you're going to love it, okay? Can we talk about what it means to be black and green? Black and green? Black or green? Black or green? Some people say green people are black, really black.

What you mean? Like Kermit. Ninja Turtles? People think Kermit's black. The Ninja Turtles? The Ninja Turtles. People believe the Ninja Turtles. But I think.

I think the Ninja Turtles. Shrek? Shrek. Shrek. Same. Yep. So I think Piccolo. Unfamiliar.

Piccolo from Dragon Ball Z. Piccolo from Dragon Ball Z. They say, are green people black? This is a real thing. Charles tried to draft Piccolo in a black superhero's draft that we had. I don't think that Kermit is black. I'll say that. I don't think that Kermit is black.

I think. It ain't easy being green. That's true, though. You know what I mean? Oh, man. See? Now, see, I could say something that the. sisters would get mad at.

Because she's white? Like, I could get, yeah. I mean, that's a white woman. Hold on. Is Miss Piggy white or black? Do you feel like she's more coated white or black? I always thought she was white. Jade?

Jade is making a face. Jade thinks that Miss Piggy is actually, because we look at this as an interspecies relationship, but is this an interracial relationship if Kerman is black? Is Miss Piggy white or is Miss Piggy black too? you think she's a sister I don't think I know I don't think she's a sister but I

she might be racially ambiguous no I know what she is Latina So I was thinking that But I was like She doesn't But she doesn't I don't think she's Latina

I don't think so either But I think she could be racially I can tell you something You guys don't want to have this conversation It's difficult for you because the way Miss Piggy is portrayed, you want to look at that. But I will say typically...

I always thought she was white. I will say that typically, if you're saying that Kermit is black and Ms. Piggy is white, I don't know too many brothers in interracial relationships where the white woman acts with them like Miss Piggy acts with Kermit.

Really? Yes. You don't think. No. the ones that I know it's not like that. They're not bossing them around. I should know.

Not the ones that I know. I'm going to agree with Van on this one. Like the ones that I know, that's not the way that's going. There might be some, not all. But, you know. I'm going to agree with Van on this. So the ones that I know, that's not the way that this happened. The ones that I know, the way that's happening is

calls you up, hey, what time you're going to be home? Like, bitch, I'm playing the game. click and I'm like hey bro okay damn nah man she she's cool with it bro it's like it's cool I'm like god damn bro you know I know her ancestors probably owned yours but you ain't got to do it like that

okay but back to the topic at hand black and green black and green Raven Simone Raven Simone is facing backlash over resurfaced clip from her podcast Tea Time with Raven and Miranda where she and guest

Kaylin Allen discussed the cultural impact of that, so Raven. The conversation originally aired in April but went viral this week. Let's take a look at what she said. And then people are judging me for the things that I'm saying. I'm like, no, no, no. I love my blackness, but

my blackness can look so many different ways. Yeah, but you also set up because Raven Baxter was so fucking black that then people took that to be you. Was she black? She felt black as hell to me. Give it to me, though. Why did she feel black? to you.

Because it was the first time that I had seen like this black family. So you saw color. Yeah. Take away the color. Okay. And hear the color. Okay. And hear the words.

And hear the words. What color are they? First of all, I'm going to say two things. Get off Kalin's fucking neck, bro. Like, get off Kalin's neck. I see y'all and y'all going at Kalin. Kalin is on their show trying to talk with them, listening to them. Like, listen to her, describe her show.

Get off Kalyn's neck. That's a funny fucking clip. Are you kidding me? Hear the words. That's a funny clip. Hear the words, man. Did you watch that, So Raven? No.

I've seen a couple episodes. We're old. We're older. That is. So, Jay, you grew up on this. That was my show. This is a Gen Z. Bernard, okay, you too.

This is a Gen Z thing. We'll talk about this particular clip in general, and then we could talk about it in a broad way of Raven. But when you hear Raven and Miranda say, listen to the words, her wife, how do you feel growing up on, like when you saw that that's so Raven came out, how did you feel watching that show? It was a black show. But why was it a black show to you? Not only color-wise was it a black family being depicted, but the mannerisms, the jokes,

the guests they had on, everything was surrounded around a black girl growing up and how that was portrayed. So I don't understand anything about that. I read somewhere that they were like, okay, maybe the original, like, writing around it was like there was a lot of white writers. So it's like, okay, I can give you that.

But at the same time, the show progressively became about black representation over and over again. Again, from the different guests they had, like Della Reese up there doing her little skitty, bop, boop, whatever,

up on the stage, or if it was about the fashion that Raven had, or if it was about, again, like certain mannerisms or certain characteristics or certain jokes that they had. Like, I completely thought it was a black show.

I think also at a time when it was on Disney, you had proud family. But there was so much that was on Disney that did not have representation of you. So you turn on Disney and you see a girl that you want to be like, that looks like you, that you can relate to. And I think a lot of young girls or, I mean, families, black families, not just girls, but just people growing up your age group. looked at this as something that they felt seen. 100%. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, too, because there are, correct me if I'm wrong,

episodes about racism. Yes, 100%. Particularly not because she's a woman, because she's black. Yes, 100%. She had two black parents. Mother wore, wasn't her hair in locks? Her mother's hair was in locks.

Yeah, like it was about Orlando. in it. He was always rapping. There was nothing about it that wasn't black. I don't understand where she was coming from by saying that at all. And Miranda commenting and not even seen the show, like, I just don't get it.

But if you listen to the words, if you closed your eyes, it's still a black show for you? It's still black. So let me ask you guys a question. Let's play this out. Okay. So let's take something that's distinctly black. Let's make right now the

Huxibles white. Let's just do it. Let's make the Huxibles white. Now if the Huxibles are white, the show becomes weird. Right? In what way? Because it's not the show anymore. It's not the same show.

Well, no. It's the same show, but they're white. So then it looks, you'd ask yourself, okay, why did you go to Hillman? It's a black school. What's the obsession with African-American? art, like there's directly, thematically,

throughout that show, black stuff that is put in there, say what you want about Bill Cosby, that was something that was very important to him. I'm not saying that this is not the case with that, so Raven, I've never watched it before. It's interesting that you said, you made a look, that shit came out in 2003.

I was 23 years old. I just, I just think, what if I said to end, say, dog, can't hang out I gotta make it on the watch that so raven odd okay

so what I'm saying is that I don't know enough about this show to say whether or not it was black or not but there are things featuring black people

that are not culturally black there is such a thing this is what I'll say because I agree I think that I don't think the intention behind making that

so Raven especially like I said from the start it wasn't like we're going to throw everything that's black into this show and make it like this cultural phenomenon I don't think that's what the vision was for it I think especially with them getting Raven to play the main character

and them surrounding it around a black family it eventually starts like ingesting almost a lot of black culture naturally But I think the show itself was palatable for anybody. So I think a lot of people who weren't black watched it. And I think that it wasn't like a, it wasn't to the extreme of black culture. But I think it had such a huge impact on black culture, especially for kids, for young black women. And I think they added culture into it over time.

If her point here is you saw the show as black because you saw yourself, but I didn't see the show as black because I didn't put any blackness into it. I'm just holding space for the fact that that's possible. And when we see that a lot of times, it irks us. Well, this is what I'll say. And this is why I was talking about just these comments about that So Raven, but then talking about a bigger conversation. surrounding Raven Simone.

The reason, too, I would say is, because I believe in this conversation that she was having on the podcast with Kane, it was about black people not being a monolith. And so she was basically saying that there was Orlando represented a certain type of black person. She represented a certain type of black person.

Her family maybe have represented other people who came on. And that is a conversation, and that is true. You saw the same thing on the Cosby Show. It showed that all black people are not the same. We are not a monolith. That was the conversation that was being had. And so this went into it.

The thing with this in particular is, one, there's shows on racism and discrimination, too. When I was looking at, people were like, there were times when her dad compared her to Martin Luther King Jr. And Rosa Parks. And so there was black culture infiltrated within it. But with Raven in particular, there is this pattern of where it feels like she is constantly trying to separate herself from blackness. And the reason, this is an old, this clip, I think, was back in the spring. Yeah.

So it's coming back up because it's fitting into this pattern of Raven Simone over the years, whether it's in an interview with Oprah Winfrey, where she's talking about African-American versus being American, whether it's on the view where you see her take up for certain things where it seems like black people are being made fun of or there's an issue that is centering around, like the Michelle. Obama. I don't know if you remember that clip. And she like made space for somebody comparing her to

apes. And then there's there other things that have come up. So this fits that and it becomes this question of Raven Simone for your generation who as Raven Baxter was looked at as this cultural figure and somebody who young girls may have modeled themselves after or seen themselves in

is constantly reminding people that she's not that. And that is the bigger conversation here and why it's going viral again. And it doesn't help when it feels like you're separating, you're trying so hard to separate yourself from that, or at least that's how it's coming across. And you are in an interracial relationship

with a woman who also went viral recently for saying she never watched her show. And that's fine, right? Like some people never watched it, But it's more of like you're commenting on cultural relevance and you also don't understand the cultural relevance of that Soul Raven. That's where I think people are bringing that to it. Well, she's also just parroting and regurgitating what her and Raven talk about.

Clearly. So when she said, say the words, make them green, like that, she's heard that from Raven. They absolutely have those conversations. So this is the thing I think I'm seeing in a lot of places, is that you can be black. but then not black on purpose, right? I think what people want to see from people is the intentionality and the purpose of black culture being demonstrated

because it's worth that. Any culture, any culture that you are a part of, it doesn't matter what the culture is. You have to actively participate in it. Like your default to being that is condition. It's of your birth, right? But to actually celebrate that culture, you have to do that on purpose. You have to be Jewish on purpose.

You have to be Italian on purpose. You have to be black on purpose. And there are many different ways to be black. But the value of black culture, which sometimes America tries to like obviously denigrate, but then sometimes there are certain black people that get to purchase where they try to purchase in this country where they try to denigrate it. The value of black culture is doing it on purpose. It's saying this is something that black people do. This is a way that black people are.

I don't look at it as being something that is always reflective of white supremacy. I don't look at it as being something that is always reactive to whiteness. I look at it as something that black people have decided celebrates, uplifts them. And I do this because I'm a part of that. And that is important to show. It's important to show as a part of who I am that the culture that I come from is beautiful and worth it. And sometimes when people say it's not a black movie, it's a movie. It's not a black comedy.

It's a comedy. It's not a black show. It's a show. Right? You're trying to make something universal sometimes at the cost of being. participatory in a culture that we believe is gorgeous, will live forever, and that helps us live in safety with one another. And the rejection of that seems profound.

And it is profound. And so I think sometimes people do that and they don't even understand how it lands with other people. Yeah, it is a black show and we want it to be a black show. We might not want it to only be a black show, but we wanted to be a black show. but we wanted to be a black show because we need to have places where we can go and we can feel safe

and we can feel seen and we need to let people know that our culture that begins here in America is on par and as beautiful as any other culture. It so well said and what made me something that I thought about when you were talking about that is if the conversation was surrounding

that black people aren't a monolith, then why are you so? quick to let people know this isn't a black show. You should actually be proud to say it's a black show because blackness doesn't have to look a certain way or only one way. And when you fight against that, you're almost perpetuating the idea that to be a black show, a black show has to exist in this one way. You had the opportunity in the platform to show blackness. And one, you were on the Cosby show, so you did it there. And then two, now you have the opportunity to do it on That So Raven, and you seem to be fighting against that label when labeling

that shows that blackness can look a number of ways. So there's a contradiction there as well when you're fighting it so much in this because it is a black show because black is a variety of things. Yeah. Yeah. Black, I do believe that black is a variety of things, but there are, like any culture, there are certain tenets. Now, there's more of them because it's a big group.

group of people and it's a huge diaspora and stuff like that. But there's like there are certain things that exist and they black. And if a lot of these things don't line up, we'll start to look at you and be like, like, what's going on? Like what happened? You know what I'm saying? Like, what's the deal?

Now, you know, Raven Simone and whatever Ravens Simone, she has controversial racial opinions, but I actually like it. I like it because for some reason Raven Simone can get under people's skin with really this performative anti-blackness.

I just call it what it is, like more than anyone. Because people really want to love. It's different when there's a character out there that people really want to love. We've been known in Raven Simone since she was a little girl. And how have we known her? In black spaces. And that's why it is. Cosby Show hanging with Mr. Cooper.

I know. So I'm saying, we've known her for like a long time. So when she kind of gets into this, it's like, God damn, Raven. not you too we'll see what she says like I mean probably nothing this is this is Raven Simone like everybody accepted right like Raven Simone doesn't seem like that she sees the inherent value of black culture

it doesn't feel like she sees that there are people like that there are people that it seems like she doesn't see the inherent value of black culture yeah I mean it's a problem for me you've profited off of it so now to like kind of distance your what feels like to distance yourself from it feels wrong

Y'all don't get me started. That's what everybody got to do. Everyone, the essential tension that we continue to have over and over and over again is you start climbing up that ladder and we call it selling out, we call it buying in or whatever it is. The higher you climb up that ladder, there is a value system and a source of prestige and wealth that becomes available to. to you that starts to dwarf the prestige and wealth that you've built with the community that made you. And there are just very few people, very few people that when presented with that, don't go, I'll take it.

There's just very few people like that when presented with this next level, if we're talking about going from 80 to 80 million to 500 million, There's just very few people that don't just go, I'll take it. After they finish harvesting the culture and then selling that culture to whomever will buy it, they've gotten as much as they can out of being black. And then they go, okay, now, like, what else am I? And this is not a holier than doubt.

This ain't, we don't work for blackpodcast.net. Like, we don't, I don't come from blackpodcasting.net. This is on Spotify, me coming from TMZ. I'm just telling you what I've observed. So when it happens now, it's almost expected to me. That's why it's important for me to align myself with people who still live in the purity of their message. That's why new people, new voices, I get obsessed with them because I'm like, that's the most truthful representation of all of this stuff. No corporation has gotten to them yet.

No fucking monetary gain has gotten to them yet. They talk and they fucking shit. name some names here. I do enough Dick Ryan already. All right. Stephen A. Smith. Stephen A. Smith is weighing in on the renewed tension between Colin Kaepernick and Jay-Z, pushing back on the idea that Jay-Z turned his back on Kaepernick by partnering Rock Nation with the NFL. Smith pointed back to Kaepernick's controversial 2019 NFL workout saying Jay-Z and Rock Nation were actually working behind the scenes to get Kaepernick another opportunity to play. Let's take a look at what he said.

Peace, y'all. You had several owners in the league ticked off at Colin Kaepernick because the number wasn't at 250. They calculated that Colin Kaepernick's protests had cost each of them four million hours. They got 246

and was complaining about four million missing. And they were pissed off. And they blamed him. And it was Roger Goodell and the league office in concert. with Jay-Z and Rock Nation who compelled the league

to give him a tryout in front of these teams and these players. The owners had said about Colin Kaepernick, what we need him for. Look who we got in the league. There's Dak Prescott in the league. There was Russell Wilson in the league.

There were other black quarterbacks in the league, all of whom were getting paid. We don't need Colin Kaepernick. Jay-Z said, oh, yes, the hell you do. You're going to do business For me, you're damn right, you need them. And they relented and allowed this workout to be organized. And Colin Kaepernick at the last minute neglected to show up.

And when that happened, I said it's over. And here we are in the year 2026. And now he's got a memoir coming out. And it's still over. Just like I said it would be. I didn't wish it on him. I don't think he deserved it. It would have been nice to see Colin Kaepernick in the league healthy doing his thing

because the brother could play. The brother could play. But when you have the kind of support that he had from somebody like Rock Nation, and you pass on that support to do your own thing, you now don't have the support of the league, And when you look at the league today, look at the quarterbacks who are great, who happened to be black, by the way.

It's Patrick Mahomes. It's Lamar Jackson. Is Dak Prescott? It's Jalen Hertz. Look at these brothers in here. Get paid, making money. And balling. They didn't feel they needed a Colin Kaepernick.

But Jay-Z and Goodell compelled. them to think otherwise. And he didn't show up. Which brings me to a point that is uncomfortable but it's necessary to like to be uncomfortable.

As I have done on numerous occasions with numerous podcasts appearances and YouTube shows that I have appeared on, I'm going to do it again. What the fuck? What did he do? That's the whole clip?

That's the whole clip I saw. Okay, cool. Like, it is, I watched, I didn't watch all the way to the, so that, what did he, like, can somebody find out what he did? Because he's doing it again. I'm sure it's calling out. And I got to be real with him. Doing it again. Remember that John Legend joint?

Doing it again. Shout out to John. I like what niggas do it again. If there's nothing that I like more, doing it the first time is one thing. Because anybody can do it once. do what it it can't be it

it can't be anything Rachel listen doing something once is one thing anybody can do it once it don't matter to you okay that's what we do we come here we pop Monday

and then you go you know what we do we're gonna do it again nigga we're coming back on Thursday you are so right it's true because that speaks to this topic

again again we gotta do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again Okay, so this is the deal.

All right, so look, here's my thing. And I'm really being honest, this is the last time I'm going to do this. Oh, please. It is. No, it's not. Okay. Because it's going to come up again. Go ahead.

But let me tell you why this is the last I'm going to do this. Because it's obvious, like, that this is intractable. That whatever schism exists is intractable, right? And so what I would rather do is have, fruitful conversations about where people are right now in their life and what we can do moving forward rather than to continue to relitigate 2019. But I'll say this. This is interesting from Stephen A. Smith. And it's interesting because Stephen A. Smith is leaving out parts of this story that are material to it. I got to say something real quick. I do not care about who

anybody disagrees with. Do not care. you can look at the entire Colin Kaepernick situation and have all kinds of disagreements with Colin Kaepernick about how he went about what he was doing. You are free as a person. You're free to disagree with somebody. But Stephen A. Smith is a journalist and gets upset when people criticize his journalism. And there's a tremendous amount of context that's missing from what he said. it may be true that at a certain point Rock Nation and Roger Goodell

pushed for the tryout that all the teams were supposed to come to and wanted Colin Kaepernick to have this opportunity, right? That may be true. That may be true. It seems to be true. Something's true. It is also true that that workout Colin Kaepernick did not attend.

The question is why? And the reason, which Stephen A. Smith knows because this was litigated on first take with actual copies of two different waivers is that the NFL presented a waiver to Colin Kaepernick and his team that they did not believe was fair.

They believed that this... McApranick's team didn't think it was fair. Right, his lawyers advised him not to sign this waiver because this waiver seemed to indemnify the league from any further legal action that Colin Kaepernick might want to take against the league. And it was also different

from the typical waiver that someone who is trying out would receive. Right. Which, why? Right. There should not have been, there should not have been, like typically it's like bodily injury. Right. This went above and beyond.

So there's a standard workout waiver that Colin Kaepernick had signed because he practiced at Georgia Tech like a couple of days before that. He signed the waiver and then he went through his practice. This was different. That issue is material. to the reason why this workout didn't go on as planned, right? That issue is a gigantic part of it. And I think if you were being fair,

which is the only thing that we owe each other, we don't owe each other agreement, but particularly in situations where we're going to describe each other, we owe each other fairness. Even some of the criticisms that I've had of Jay-Z or Rock Nation on this podcast, it is unfair to say anything about them and not talk about the good work that they've done and not talk about the fact that they funded activists,

that they have gotten lost past, to make them into this evil empire that seeks to put their capitalist thumb on an entire community, that's not the full story. That's not the story. The story is, sometimes you have disagreements with people

or organizations over things, but you would never ever hear me say that they don't do stuff. I know people specifically that have had them do stuff for them. So that's being fair. I do not understand why Stephen A. Smith continues, in my opinion, to tell part of the story about Colin Kaepernick.

I don't know what the point of that is. And also, last thing I'll say about this, is wanting Colin Kaepernick to play again is one thing. Hoping that he played again is one thing. But understanding how important it would have been for him to play again is a completely different thing. I've said this before. I'll say it again. There's a chilling effect that happens when someone decides to take a stand

and then they are made a cultural flashpoint and then their professional career is taken from them. The question is now the next time somebody wants to call out the league or the next time somebody decides that they want to kneel, the next time somebody decides that they want to take action against something that they think is unfair, will they do it, knowing that a quarterback that had been to the Super Bowl decided one day he had had enough of police brutality, he took this action, and it ended up costing him his career. Because there are a lot of people that will want to do that that don't even have the infrastructure around them like Colin had. They might be even lesser players than Colin was. They might not be as good at some of this other stuff as he was. So for them, it would truly be over.

For them, it would truly be a situation where they're not looked at as this cultural figure and stuff like that. Do those people do that? So the win for me against the NFL in terms of Colin getting his job back was just, it was a communal win of people saying, hey, you can't do this. But that doesn't mean that he had to do something that was legally against his best wishes. You can criticize that if you want. There's a bunch of people out there that's listening to this and go, if you want back in the league, sign a waiver. get back there and play. We could have that conversation. But to have

that take without the context is bewildering. And especially, it would be one thing if I say, maybe he didn't. But on first take, there was a back and forth for a couple of days over this, right? Where there were two different parts of the waiver,

where Max Kellerman was on there saying, hey, this is different. Like right now, pro football talk. this is NBC News standard trial waiver is much more narrow than the waiver the NFL sent to Colin Kaepernick that is from November 18th, 2019

like Yahoo Sports there is a reason to believe NFL's Colin Kaepernick workout was a Trojan horse. That is from the same date. These are people that are reporting on this. Fairness to him and not continuing to lash him is

just to admit that that is a part of this story. And if you don't do that, it's almost like you're purposefully spreading misinformation. Yeah, that's the thing that I would say about it all. Like, you absolutely should not sign something when your lawyers are telling you not to.

They're doing that for a reason. This obviously is something that is not in your favor. And that means it's more weighted and benefits the other side than it does for you. Also, just staring at its face, why is his way, he already signed one. Why is his waiver different from the standard waiver? Also, you're adding into the conversation. It had been proven that he was colluded.

They colluded against him. They purposely tried to keep him out of this league. There is a mistrust. There is betrayal. There's deception. So why would he be so trusting to sign something, especially something that's different? And would be, let's say, let me just sign this

just so I can do this workout. and get in the NFL. It's already been proven that they don't want you here. So it would make sense that they would continue to do things that keep you out of the league because they don't want you in this league. They'll throw money at you. But what they don't want you is a part of what it is that they're doing. So I agree with you.

It is odd that he does that. And the other thing that makes it odd is when they colluded against him for what he did, just standing up for what he believes in, in a very peaceful way. They made him out to be a troublemaker. It played into this narrative that he is causing problems, that he's like problematic within the league for the team, for the coaches, for the owners, all of it. You then playing into this narrative that he just didn't show up for the workout,

almost as if he was being selfish and just like didn't, didn't want to when they out of the goodness of their heart gave him this workout and people fought on your behalf and you just didn't show up. plays into this narrative again that he is this troublemaker. So then it bears the question of why are you also trying to make him look like he's a troublemaker when that is not the full story? That's really the question that I would love for somebody to ask him. If you're not going to tell the full story, what are you keeping out and why?

And why are you playing into this problematic narrative that he was just wreaking havoc in the NFL? You know what else is going on with me? is I'm really, really, really, really mentally tired. Like, you know, there are criticisms of the fact that it doesn't, it doesn't feel like I'm discerning with who I surround myself with. People were like, why did you go on Blackout and talk to the InvestFest Fest guys? And like, why are you here? Why are you there?

Other people are like, why are you with, like, FD Signifier? who I think is a brilliant, important voice, right? You'll always have something to say. But this is my thing. The thing that's exhausting here is that the fight for black dignity always gets reduced down because of the immense power that we are up against. It always gets reduced down and boiled down to use. support this guy or that guy.

Meanwhile, there are networks that are built on the other side about through powerful moneyed interests that are working in concert with one another, that are working like a fucking symphony. And it's not that those guys don't have disagreements because they do. They have disagreements about just how much gruel they expect you to eat and just just how much freedom they want you to have. They have disagreements about who's going to be the controlled opposition that they're going to promote to continue to propagandize you.

They have those disagreements. They are disagreements, right? But there's a profound concert that they put on. And generation after generation, they play the same song. And here we are again. It's just not worth it. over a long enough timeline, there has to be a situation where somebody goes, you know what, people first. And I'm not interested.

I'm interested in truth and I'm interested in fairness. But I'm not interested in this binary where one group of people are agents, one group of people are fucking pure, the other group. We just people. And some things work for us and some things don't. But God damn, man. we have to get to a point to where our cultural pact is that we'll be fair and honest about each other

even when we wrong, even when we write. We will call out excites and fucking imprison the ideas and the things that don't serve us. I have no problem with that. But after a while, like all of this shit feels hopeless. Like I get it. I understand why in this situation, these people are my friends.

I'm not even going to lie. I don't like Colin Nessa. I love them. And I think they were treated like absolute shit. I think they were treated. It's a profound tragedy to me that someone can wake up after making a whole bunch of money, going to the Super Bowl, doing all of this stuff, and say, you know what, I'm sick of black kids being killed.

and that leads to the end of their career. That type of shit haunts me. Like, I can't wrap my mind around that, right? Like, you're not supposed to be able to do that. You're not supposed to be able to do that. At the same time, I'm interested in the health and the happiness of their family. I don't have any enemies that I want to make over this. They probably feel differently.

What I do want are the lessons and the stories from this era to be told fairly and accurately. And that's the least we can fucking do. Especially from a journalist. Tough. Tough stuff. We're hoping to have Colin Kaepernick on the podcast. Why wouldn't he come on? Yeah.

Me? Nah. I mean, they, I mean, you know, they know that you don't really like them that much, but. Okay, Stephen A. Smith. Let's tell the whole story. Just joke. There's nothing.

There's love. Like, it's just a, you know, tough situation. And, you know, communities shouldn't be, and this is not a diss to any of the niggas out there living the life, but your community don't have to be scottened up in gangs. You don't have to throw different sides. Everything can't be team sports. It can't be.

It just don't work like that. Or maybe it does. Maybe I'm too fucking idealistic. I would hope that it wouldn't. Where should we go now, Rach. Next topic is a rich topic. Pick it up. What the fuck you want to talk about?

We have to talk about Pierre. Go for it. Jane. Pierre Damas Bell, a 20-year-old Haitian immigrant in Springfield, Ohio, died Monday after walking into traffic on Interstate 70. His family and the Haitian Bridge Alliance say he died by unaliving himself after becoming increasingly distressed over the possibility of deportation. Ohio State Highway Patrol is investigating his death. Bell came to the U.S. in 2024 to reunite with his parents. He was among more than 350,000 Haitians who lost temporary protected status or TPS after the Supreme Court allowed the Trump administration to end the protections.

After losing TPS, DHS placed Bell in an ankle monitoring program while his immigration case continued. Thoughts. This is a devastatingly tragic story. This young man, he wrote this. on social media last month. He said, I came to this country to pursue my education. He was doing that. He said, I didn't come here to commit a crime or hurt anyone.

He didn't do either one of those things. He said, yet now I'm walking through the streets of the United States with a GPS monitor on my leg, carrying a feeling of shame and humiliation that I never imagined I would experience. Pierre was a soccer player at his high school. He loved being a part. of J.R.O.T.C. He was in his freshman year at college at Wright State University. He was planning

to study neuroscience. He was very excited about his future. He did it right. Okay. He had temporary status here, and he was working on making it permanent. He applied for a mission to the United States in 2024, and he was released into the country under the Biden administration. He's doing what he's supposed to be doing. And then temporary status is taken away from him. We know that that TPS was targeted specifically to brown and black countries, or taken away from specifically brown and black countries. You are possibly sending him to a country that you prohibit Americans to even travel to

because the crime is so bad. The health care is so bad. you are kidnapping, the unrest. These are quotes, terrorism from the U.S. Department of State, prohibiting Americans to travel to Haiti. Yet you take away the temporary protection status of 300,000 Haitians. You're already sending them over there, a place where you won't even let Americans go to.

And the ones that you are keeping here, it hasn't happened to everybody, but it particularly happened to Pierre, you are putting a GPS around them, as if they're not. human beings, a shackle feels very, very similar to slavery. And you're treating them as criminals. As Pierre said, he hasn't even committed a crime or hurt anyone. He's doing every single thing that you are asking him to do so he can be an American citizen. And you treat him like an animal. And what happens at the end of the day? He takes his life because he is in fear of going back

to a country that he is running away from. that he doesn't feel safe in. He wants to better his life as a human being, and you take that away from him. And then he commits suicide, and it's like we just keep on moving on, like another day. We, I mean, certain people, the governor of Ohio is speaking out

and condemning Trump for this, but what else are we doing for this? This young man took his life because he felt like his life was over. And his life is over because of a racist policy, because the Supreme Court that enabled a Trump-admit to continue to be racist against black and brown people. And this young guy who had his whole life ahead of him,

who was so excited about his future in this country, was met with hate and racism and was treated like he was not a human being. And so he decided he didn't want to live anymore. This is devastating. Devastating. And it, you know, you have right now, ice, it's being reported. they are ramping up the people that they are arresting. It's being reported that in July that there were more people that were being detained,

more immigrants that were being detained, that did not have a criminal history. They were being detained for civil immigration violations. And most of those people that are being detained are actively pursuing asylum or have green cards or pursuing other legal status, which is exactly what you want, they're supposed to be doing. Yet you were telling them that they can't. They are not like you. And lives are being lost because of it. Yeah, there's a cost. I mean, when you look at the list of things that this young man had accomplished, I think of the fact that, I mean, that's the

story of blackness surviving in the Western world. The narrative, I've said this before, but the narrative is that there's some way that you earn your humanity. Like you earn your humanity if you are living in Western society. You earn it. You earn it with what you produce. And you specifically earn it in a very direct way if you're black. If you come from Baton Rouge, where I'm from, then there's direct ways that you can earn good treatment.

Like you can run fast. You can sing well. you can do those things and right away people go I'm such a talented person such a tell we have to make sure like okay you win a track meet or you don't go to McKinley

now you go Catholic you're a Catholic high and when you get drafted there's a nice white family that's right there rooting for you and we tell the story about how we harvested one out and gave them a future

because their legs move faster than other people but the other ones that couldn't take it that's a casualty of America, right? They just don't get it, right? The people that are in a situation

where they can't endure the horrors of growing in this society of living black and underprivileged and underinvested into in this society, then we'll get what we can out of them through having them work as inmates and Angola, the American Gitmo. or something else.

And when I even think about the story of Haiti, I can get into it again. Like, well, why is there a dysfunction in Haiti? Is that because the Haitian people are savages who have no interest in self-governance, have no interest in safety, have no interest in a country that works for them? No, that's not why that's like that.

The reason why that's like that is because the Western world has decided to punish Haitians, has decided to punish the Haitian people for being bold, and audacious enough to go and grab their freedom and kill their motherfucking masters. And they've been being punished. The reason why this young man is in this situation

and walked into traffic comes from the 1700s. Hundreds and hundreds of years. Hundreds of years of immiseration, attentional brutality, and dehumanization, lead to one kid saying I can't handle it anymore. And we continue to invest to these systems. We continue to talk about them and figure out ways

that we could kind of halfway live with them instead of saying, hey, like we're worth more than this. So not to put all of this on his shoulders, but just to say that all of this is on purpose and everything that he did to prove to them that he was enough and he was enough And he wasn't one of the bad ones. It don't matter.

You are born one of the bad ones. You will be treated as such. And when your lease on entertaining or participating in the system runs out, you will be shown the door. And with this group of people who have done everything the right way, what happened was a regime came along that was bold enough to say the quiet part out loud. And the choir part is this country is for us. This system is for us. Humanity, happiness, this is for us. You get what we give you.

And every time, like, we root for the treatment of brown people, the treatment of gay people, the treatment of black people, the treatment of everyone. It's the time people get on the side and say, hey, this is what people should have and blah, blah, blah. you're adding to the course of that. You're part of it. So when I look at this right now,

I look at a long, long, long list of direct actions and choices made on behalf of this young man that didn't allow him to live out his entire potential. It's crazy hearing you say it that way. First off, the term earned your humanity is fucking wild.

So you got to do that. Just, no, but just like, everybody sit with that. The idea and it is true. You know, especially when you have people who, you know, are like,

so protect the lives and, you know, of the fetus and all of that. And we're pro-life, we're pro-life. But then the term, earn your humanity is a real thing because certain lives

are not valued in this country. And what's even more sad is you talk about what happened to him being a direct thing from what's happened in the 1700s in Haiti, but the lie that he believed is that he could come here and it would be different for him. And that is also what adds to the devastation of it all. It's you entered a country where once again, you are not valued. And I think that realization, not just from a policy, but also from the actual, the physical action of having to wear a shackle on your leg as a

student showing that you're differentiated from the rest of your classmates, your friends, citizens. It's, I cannot even imagine. And for him to think, well, my life isn't valued, so what's the point of living is so sad. And I just want to read a statement. from somebody from ICE, because this is what they said. They were asked about this. They said, remaining in the country illegally while fighting removal is a choice. Leaving with a free flight home

and $2,600 is also a choice. That's what somebody from ICE said. You know, it's funny. It's not funny. Like, his ancestors, a lot of them died to get their shackles off their feet. and he died because they put him back on. I'm just saying, man, look, and by the way, this is a specific situation that has to do with being black and being Haitian and being, but also, you know, I don't want you to think that if you're not black, that this isn't happening to you.

I want you to think that you don't realize that it's happening to you because you've been taught that as long as it's worse for somebody else. that you're actually free. You're not. One day you'll learn, and then it'll be too late. But look, I'm, I don't want to get down, you know. There's no way not to be down about the death of this young man. But I don't want to continuously be a doom and gloom guy on here every single, every single podcast. But it's kind of the space that we're in.

So what we're going to do this is we're going to come back. in a second. We're going to take a break and then I have a question for Rachel. Is it a doom and gloom? It's not a doom and gloom question. Rest and peace to this young man, prayers for his family. But we're going to take a break and we're going to come back on the other side of this. Okay, Rachel, what's up with the fam you shit that you got on right now? Did Will Packer? Did Will Packer get to you? He did not. I didn't even notice that.

You didn't even notice, huh? You fucking with the rattlers, nigger? Well, I mean, I have no problem with the fam you rat. I do. I have family that went there. Pledge there. Played at FAMU? Actually, wait, she pledged after. Yeah.

So, you know, this FAMU thing is like... Do you have an issue with FAMU? Yeah, I do. Why? So, first of all... So first of all, I have issues with a couple of other HBCUs. Gremlin? Huh?

Grambling, obviously. That makes sense. That's all in the vicinity. but why fam? So these are my top HBCUs that I have issues with. What? You know, you know Howard on there.

I know it is. Because of the money? So yeah, because of the money, the rich cousins. Sounds like I hate it. The rich cousins. Yeah. Yep.

Sounds like I hate him. Howard. The rich cousins. Like the rich cousins. The rich cousins of Howard, the rich cousins have a problem with them. I have a problem with Jackson State. Okay,

because we went to Jackson. I have a problem with Jackson State. I have a problem with Gremlin. I have a problem with FAMU. Okay? So the problem I have with FAMU is that the jukebox would be doing their thing. I'm playing all kinds of different shit. And FAMU just will have so many people in the band.

Like they had so many people in the band. They sounded amazing because they had 200 motherfuckers in the goddamn band. They got fucking woodwinds. They got a, I don't know, got a kind of violins in the band. and all of this shit. But the jukebox was going crazy, and I did not like the comparison. Me and Gino would talk about,

I'll get Gino on the phone right now. No, no, we don't need to talk to Gino, but was there any comparison? Yeah, it was a comparison. I would just think, I think maybe for you, you know, you compares yourself probably to the fam you band, but I don't think that they looked at y'all as, like, competition. Now, this is funny.

It's so funny when you say this, because, like, when you say that people don't look at something, as like competition. No, I didn't say people. I said fam you. No. There's no fucking way. Like, when you downplay...

Because you know, I think they lost in the classic. When you, when you downplay... This just kind of shows... You got to be real. I don't want to be like... But when you downplay the Southern University of Human Jukebox, it kind of shows...

Go ahead and I'm going to tell you right now where it comes from. No, I'm just saying... But you realize I'm from northern... My people are from northern Louisiana. So part of my doing it isn't because I didn't go to an HBCU. I don't know anything. I'm literally, my people are from 30 minutes from gambling.

That's where my family went. I want you to know something. I'm just, it's a rivalry. It's a robbery, but I would never say that fam's band, you know what I'm saying? I agree with you. I would never say that fam's band don't sound good because you can't say that. I agree. I didn't say that the human jukebox didn't sound good.

Well, you said that fam don't look at them. That's nuts. Like, that's like, that's nuts. That's nuts. I also said the Grammy won the classic. Like that that's, I love my Showtime band, but yeah. But that's nuts.

I mean, Howard, Howard, that's not what I'm, that's why I know. But that's why I agree with you because Southern. Southern's, man, nobody's going to be like, they're not on the same. Well, that's craziness. But you fucking with fam and you have put your allegiance towards them. I almost did apply to Fam you, actually, because I went on a college visit there. I actually. How did you go to college visits to Fam?

fam and not end up there. I'm not going to lie, man. I joke a lot. But that's a live-ass campus. I went to, I did a college tour where we went to PWI's and HBCU. So I went to FAM, I went to Florida State, I went to Georgia. So you just went right across the street, FAMM in Florida State.

I went to Georgia. I went to Spelman Morehouse. That might have been it where we went. But my sister went to Spelman. So for me, I only actually applied to Howard and Spellman for H. HBCUs. I applied to four schools,

NYU, UT, Howard Spelman. Howard Spellman. And my parents said no to NYU. Gino, who sounds better? Gino's from Baton Rouge. Who sounds better? But he's going to keep it real, though, because I can also call Gino's brother Mike,

who was in the band. You're on higher learning right now. Don't say nothing about no white women. Like who sounds better in the heyday that we was going to school, out of fam's band and Southern's band. Damn, that's tough. See?

It's southern hands down, right? It's southern hands down, right? It's southern hands down. But I'm going to give FAM some props because FAMM does sound good. They sound like a concert band. Because they got what? Because they got what? Because they got girls.

You know, they always had girls over there. They had flutes and they all. See? They have all of them different interests. They got a bunch of people in the band. And they got all these. They got all these different types of the sound that they get out the band

is because they got all of these different people in the band. The band sounds like. I'm saying. Southern was a I mean, just marching testosterone in our day. I mean, it was it was dudes. You might have one girl. I think the first girl I remember was what

90, what 90, it might be 96, 95, something like that. But yeah, I mean, 200 something dudes just straight up. I mean, aggression, straight up testosterone, blowing from their balls. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, obviously different era. No, no, no, that.

Yeah. Yeah. But Southern also, what Southern, you know, with Southern matched fan mat was the musicality. They also had the arrangements. Yeah. And they have power. And that's just something that nobody can matches with.

Yeah. Gino, were you in the band? No, no. Goodbye. I know I sound like. His brother was in the band. Goodbye. Both my brothers were.

Both his brother were. Both his brother were. were in the band. Skinnybone and Kennybone. Skinnybone and Kennybone. Kennybone and Skinnybone were both in the band. We was around the band. Rachel doesn't believe that we, like,

you know, I was around. You'd be around all the different frash. You'd be around the band. You learn the band culture. We was around the band. Yeah, Gino, you're part of the problem why Van thinks he knows so much about the D-9. That's not true.

You're part of the problem. So, all right, so look, I'm glad you said that. So, Van isn't D-9, but I know Van and told you that, damn, he's in a fraternity, right? Yeah, you knew that. What fraternity? It better not be player-proof crew. So you ain't telling about Y-Fi-U.

I have, she just doesn't remember. You-Fi-U? You-Fi-U. This is good. This is good. Yeah, you never heard of. I'm in the service frat. You-fai-you.

Like a community service. Yeah. I don't think you ever said that. Oh. I wouldn't forget that. Me and Ryan started U-Fi-U at Louisiana Tech. We talked about this. We didn't start the frat.

The frat started at Southern, but we started the Zayn chapter. Yeah. What's your call? What's your sign? Come on. Throw it up. Throw it up.

Wait, there really is one? Yeah. Did you make that up? Oh, D? I promise you've never said this. You know? You think I would forget this. Gino, well worth, the conversation was worth it.

Mm-hmm. We did. By the way, it's a real thing. And by the way... Did you strut? Yeah. Let me see. No, no, no, no.

We had... Or did you stroll. Ryan was in it. Ryan was in it. My man, like, as a matter of fact, I never forget the way the Q's dissed us. Well, I know why. The Q's dissed us at Tech when our boy Tank,

that was in U-FiU, ended up pledging Q. And then when Tank crossed, they said, what the fuck is the U-Fi U. when he crossed? And then we threw it up and went crazy. Yeah, he probably had to denounce that. He didn't.

Because you could be in U-FiU. We had a lot of people. You could be in U-FiU and they're going to play some people. What did y'all say? Like, like, what was your, you throw up your sign and you would say what? You say O-D and then Sunday would say you know. How'd you say it? Oh, D?

How have we never talked about this? We have. You just don't remember it. No, man. We have like we have. No, van. You had a sign? I'm not even heard of this. How many chapters are? There's a Zeta chapter. There's a lot of chapters. You're a founding member of you.

I'm a Zeta, like, for a long time, for a long time. Wait, is this real? It's true. It's real. It's real. For a long time, my, my, my, my, my, My email was ZCP 100. Zeta chapter president. You were the president? Yeah. Of course.

This makes the D9 conversation that much more rich. Why? Because you were on the outside. No. And then you had somebody. See what I'm saying? Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You had somebody leave and join.

No. So look, so look, my sister was in Omega-Tau-Pai. Okay. That's their sister. QT Pie. That's cute. My sister was in a mega tall pie and her

boyfriend at the time, Germain, was one of the U-FiU founders. So we, I joined this, I was involved in this while I was still in high school and then I went, but like... Is it diverse? What you mean? Is it black or is it? Oh, it's black. It's black. Okay. The founding

seven men are all from Baton Rouge? All from Baton Rouge. Yeah, all from Baton Rouge. The founding seven, all from Banroo. She's like, do you fire you? Let me see the symbol again? You fire you? You know what I'm saying? The website's in the rundown. Yeah, do you fire you? Hey, you know what?

Gino, wow. Thank you. Gino knows. Gino is trying to get his little shit off right now. He did. He did. I was really trying to give you props. Yeah, nigga. Now, now you start, you open up a can of worms. But that has nothing to do, by the way, which why, I feel like if you What are your colors?

Black and red and white. Yep. As Southern, they called, so look, last story I said, they called, they called, they called, this is back in the gap, man, I can't remember where you, maybe 03, I think it was, they called U-Fi U-U, they were stalking the cap, which is trying to catch us pleasure, right? And they actually bust in a U-Fi-U shrine, called them pledging, and I think they got suspended or something like that. They were trying to catch us, though. So you pled, you went through a process?

Yes, not really. But like, yes. But we, we, so we, we did. We did. But because we were chapter presidents, the process wasn't the same. So you haze people? Without a doubt. And got hazed without a doubt.

No, no, without, like, without a doubt. Here's my last question. When there would be like a probate and everybody, you know, like everybody's got their jackets on. Yeah. They get, would y'all get up and start strolling? Nah, because we was on the outside, right? But we had our own culture and our own thing that we did. You had jackets?

We had jackets. Did you have the paddles? We had paddle. Every single thing. We had a tree? We had a tree for a while, everything that you would have. Now, I will say this. You know you had said this on a podcast.

By the time we got back to Southern, by the time we got back to Southern, Ryan and I weren't exactly as active. Why? And U-Fi U. Because we had started our own chapter at Tech, and I have to be honest with you guys. The chapter that we started at Tech, we started kind of fucking over shit at Tech for the time that we were there. Our numbers grew. We were throwing stuff.

It wasn't like Tech, and no distal, the rest of the frats and sororities on Tech's campus. It wasn't like Tech was a stronghold of, like, black fraternities and sororities. So what ended up happening was after a while you looked up and it was like 35, 40 U-5U's 15, 20 QD pies and we was around there fucking going crazy. That's Jermaine right there. That was my sister's boyfriend before she had. She was still fucking around acting like, you know, shit wasn't real.

And it was still trying to act like, you know what I was like when the situation. She was trying to still trying to like, she was still testing the plumbing. But. I'm shook. But look at this. Look at this. Founders of Upsilon Fight Upsilon. Look, National Board. What is you fight? This is us.

I'm trying to see if Texas has one. They do not. Established 1990. Wow. Can I ask you a question? Gina, just before you go. When you say that in our crew, the knowledge that I have

of basically the culture of fraternities and sororities is pretty standard, right? To know that type of stuff if you're on the yard, isn't it pretty standard to kind of know the years that these were founded and the little beefs and microaggressions?

All that stuff is pretty standard, right? For sure. Back then, I mean, everything in Southern Plays, too. Yeah. You go deeper than that. You'll be like, I know the private handshakes. No, I mean, I know some of them handshakes. See?

See? But the only reason why you know some of them handshakes, look, here's a list of chapters. Nobody's out there doing that in public. Like... I'm already there, Van. I've already looked. I'm ahead of him.

Chapter, Zeta Chapter, Louisiana Tech University. Zeta chapter. Huh? Is your name on there? Charter number? I mean, it should be on here somewhere. You know, but anyway, Gino, thank you. Because, yeah, you know, shout out to you,

FIU, man. Shout out to QD Pye. I wonder what's going on. Hey, bro, fuck you. All right. Bye, Gina. Yeah. Wow.

Wow. It's true, guys. National Board. Avery Jack is on here. I think of Avery. I haven't thought about the bruns in such a long time. The brus.

Not we had called you. But yeah, so yeah. It all makes sense now. I don't know what makes sense, man. Gino, we had a... Let me see you guys. I need pictures. We, man, we had...

Let me see someone of y'all's dances. I can't remember any of them out of time. Oh, D? You know, you're disrespecting. See? You don't want to be. You're a cutie pie. You'll want to be cutie pie.

You should pledge cutie pie. pie. See how you throwing up outside? Like, well, you're throwing up to you fly you? What was the cutie pie sign? I think the cutie pie sign was this. Oh, that's real similar. Looks like an AKA thing. I think

I can't remember what it was. I can't remember what it was, but this was it probably was that. They stay letting people you know, take some of this up. This was, this was the cutie pie. Did you see Evette Czech Raven?

Like Nicole Brown. She's so A.K.A. I love it. Maybe she checked her. She checked her on the park because Raven was throwing something up. It looked like the ski wee and she checked her. Well, doesn't sexy red say skiway? Yeah. I mean, ski-he is yee.

But it sounds like it. It sounds like it in the song. Doesn't cats' eye have a song called Pinkies Up? That's why she did it. Because Raven was doing the cat's eye situation and the vet Nicole Brown was like, no. I'm so happy that the UFIU website works. Y'all need some more pictures of It looks like it hasn't been updated since oh nine

But nigger I would have thought that when you clicked on that bitch You was gonna get Gio cities GoDaddy.com Shout out to the whole crew I am It all makes sense I'm not gonna call Ryan Cause you know calling my friends

We have seen enough Omicron colony Etiquette Shout out to UFiU wow You know why I thought you're making it up because it makes me think of me-Fi-mee hits from the streets. Love it. Me-Fi-Moo.

Milk-F-Mil-Mil-A-Mil-It. Milk-it, milk-it, milk it. Man, where is he? He's still doing his thing. Can I say something about Al? Al hits from the streets. Love that show. This is the type of shit I'm talking about.

I don't know a funny or more talented person, a nicer person. I used to get so much gain from him. Haven't talked to him in a while, but I used to get so much gain from him on just, like, different things. but he used to say he used to be used to call uh white Hollywood used to call it vanilla village so that he coined that he'd be like van you over there vanilla village and stuff like that just a brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant comedic mind by the way Howard shout out to him shout to you for you um all right now speaking the things that was going on

back in 96 nearly 30 years after Tupac Shakur was killed. A Las Vegas jury has convicted D. D. Davis of first degree murder. It is the first conviction in the rapper's 1996 killing. Jurors reached the verdict after less than three hours of deliberation. Prosecutors did not accuse Davis of firing the shots. Instead, they argued he orchestrated the attack, obtained the gun, and helped organize the group that went looking for Tupac and Shug after Tupac and others beat Davis's nephew, Orlando Anderson at the MGM Grand earlier that night. So there's lore here.

I've already told the story and I'm not going to tell it again about being on campus at Southern's campus. My cousin bringing me up there to Southern's campus when Park died and everybody being out there. Yes, yes, you have. That story you told. But the lore is

the killer of Tupac's record was not it wasn't a it wasn't a topic of conversation it was a cultural obsession for a very long time until I guess the more people I started to know out here

when I got out here it became very obvious like what Tupac was killed over and kind of how it happened but it almost became something that it seemed like like everyone was going to go. We kind of get what happened,

but we just going to pretend like it didn't. And we're going to move on and kind of celebrate Pock's legacy as a rapper, an actor, and a voice. Because if you start talking to people, they'll be like, this is what that shit was about. And certain people could run you down the exact series of events

that led to this. But it never really felt like there was going to be any legal accountability about this or they were going to lock somebody up for what happened to Tupac because a lot of the players that were involved were already gone. A lot of them aged out of being

topics of conversation until the invention of the podcast. The invention of the podcast meant that these war stories and these happenings were then recounted by people for millions and millions and millions of people. I would like to say something that I've said before that I know certainly from having worked on hip-hop homicides. I am telling all of my brothers and sisters out there in the street, I'm not telling you that they're listening to you.

I'm not conjecturing that they're listening to you. I'm telling you directly that law enforcement is listening to your raps. They're watching your social media and they are vigorously combing through your appearances on podcasts to see what kind of cases they can put on you. Pelican Bay. Shoe program, nitty. That is what they are doing. And the bigger,

more weighty the case, the better. The bigger it can be, the more headlines they can garner. You ever watch a cop show where they go, hey, I just got a bust. We just hit this guy 32 bricks.

Woo! They're hitting the drugs together, and they're like, hey, we just got a big bust. We're going to put so much dope on the table. And that's what they want. But they're not trying to put dope on the table so that everyone can see doping guns on the table and put some dope on the table. They're trying to put your ass on the table.

And that's what Keefei D did. What happened to Keefei D is he had had a proffer with the government on some other shit. And he thought that he was immune from prosecution over his role in Pox murder, which he apparently admitted to during this proffer. This proffer was in 2008 or 2009 where he had some communication with the government. and admitted to this. After he got whatever deal he got from this proffer, he thought that he could not be touched. So this nigga went crazy,

wrote a book, and started doing interviews. They put that case together, put that case on him, and got him out of here. I'm telling people right now, it's not one specific platform or two specific platforms.

It's whatever platform they can get you on to extract a case out of you. They are listening to you, and they are compiling all of this, for the moment that they can strike, and that's what happened to QPD. Yeah, he's an idiot for this because the DA said flat out,

if he had never written the book, he would have never been prosecuted for the crime. And, yeah, so he had Queen for the Day, which is the term that you're using, the agreement. But waivers coming back up again, there are caveats in it. You're not, it's not immunity.

You're not, like, immune for what you say, for the rest of time. They can use statements against you as evidence in other things. And like they can use it to catch you in a lie or to impeach you or things like that. So the moment that he started doing the rounds to promote his book and started saying, you want to know the truth about what happened. You got to read the book. You know, and he recounts what happened on that day in the book.

And, you know, he brags about being, I don't want to say brags, but he talks about being the only one who's still alive that was in the car. when Tupac was shot and so it's like all right well you're you're continuing to tell on yourself in an effort to sell your book that's outside of what

we agreed to back in 2008 like that made you queen for the day that doesn't extend for you to be able to go out and say whatever you want to say and not think that you know like we're not going to be able to hold that against you in a new way because what they brought him in on was a drug case drug charges

and they got this out this is something Now they're prosecuting you on something totally different. And they couldn't use that for that. But they could use whatever else. Now you're voluntarily putting out this information out here and you're going above and beyond even what he told them back in 2008. And so, of course, you know, in his defense, they were like, well, he was just exaggerating to sell the book. You can't actually place him there in the car or that he had, he got the gun.

that was in the car that was used to shoot. You get, like, this is his story, but he was just trying to sell this book. Also, he had this agreement. We just talked about why the agreement isn't relevant, but they're like, oh, he was just selling a book. Jury said three hours, nah, that's not gonna work. You don't get to hide behind the exaggeration of it.

When you went everywhere, not bragging, but basically like, this is the truth by the book, and you'll finally know what happened to Tupac. And you just like can't have it both ways. and now he's facing life in prison. You know what else this entire ordeal reminded me of? What? The devastating tragedy of Tupac Shakur's death.

The devastating. Tupac Chacour dies 1996, last time the Cowboys were in the Super Bowl. Tupac Chacour dies like 1996. And I'm 16. And it feels like Tupac, because of what he had already accomplished and because of how omnipresent he was in culture, it felt like Tupac was grown.

I know. I know. Biggie too. Because Pock had been, so Pock is 26 at that point, I think. And going back to Digital Underground, same song, going back to Jules, poetic justice, we were going on five, six years in our relationship with Tupac. And it seemed like he had lived in that five, six years an entire ocean of experiences. He had gone to jail, been released, been shot, healed up, gone with death row,

been friends with Mike Tyson, dated Madonna, all of the stuff that had happened. I remember watching Pock on Artini Hall. He was like, you know, he was talking to Jane Jackson one time. And he was like, you know, after the movie's over, we're going to go and we're going to do paintball. And she's like, yeah, we're going to go paintball. He's like, cool.

And he called Jenny Jackson and he's like, this number is not working anymore. It's funny. I remember watching Pock walk up and down Venice Beach when he got released with Tapathosaurus soaring, just watching everything he had to say for so much Tupac, so much music, so much promise. And then it's just gone.

And then you, it just, at that point in my life, it felt like a gut punch. You had to just fucking sit with it. And everybody was saying that it was, because of this gigantic East Coast, West Coast hip-hop war. And even at that point, like what I was talking about earlier, they pitted Bad Boy and all of this as the adversaries of Tupac. And then Big dies a little while after that.

Like, look what happened. We lost both of them over some bullshit. I remember coming out here and talking to one person who shall not be named, and they go, not a Tupac shit was over some other shit. But whatever it was over, and they lay it out pretty clearly in the entire trial, it wasn't worth losing Tupac. It just don't seem like that. It wasn't worth losing Tupac.

And going back through that whole thing again and watching this, you would think that if you were a Tupac fan, after all of this time, you'd be like, oh, my God, some type of catharsis and resolution, and I'm not sure how his family would feel.

But all of this feels like fucking nonsense. It was. And even this, the way that it happened right now, it's like, damn, man. I'm not about to stick my nose in no street business and talk about, like, what people got going on and all of that stuff.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not making cultural judgments on people, and I just hate it because I understand the environments that people come through and live through, but shit. Like, nothing's worth dying, but, like, it's just so... It's senseless.

And then for him, To go to prison after all of this time, I guess, you know, you don't escape the things that you've done, but... Right, because the other people die. They died. People died, you know? And there's been a lot of carnage that has existed because of this. And for him to be, for him to have talked himself into this, it's like, fuck, man. It almost, too, it's like, did you not have remorse for whatever role you played in it?

because you've decided to profit on it by writing a book and thinking like you were untouchable because of an agreement that you had made over a decade ago. And it almost feels like when you really think about it, he didn't even feel bad about it. Do you know what I liken that to? Like there's a conditioning that happens, like, let's say the soldiers. Soldiers feel like, and I know a lot of soldiers, right,

that feel terrible about things that they've done in wars and people that they've, the lives that they've taken in wars. But I think about a guy like Chris Kyle, like the American sniper dude, who, watch a movie one thing, read the book, he was fucking insane, okay? About the way that he talks about the number of people that he killed.

The conditioning that goes into creating a mindset where killing somebody is not this like really universal, energetic ending of an existence, but it's something that happens in war. That happens over the air and it happens in boot camps and it's happening in the neighborhoods that a lot of our brothers and sisters are living in too. These things are multi-generational,

and there's a lot of fucking blood that's been laid. There's a lot of bodies that's been laid. And the people that you know, you didn't been to funerals, and they didn't been to funerals, and you didn't been the funerals. So after a while, I don't know if remorse plays a part into it. I'm sure there's some remorse.

but when you hear people talk about it, it almost feels like at sometimes that this is just the reality of the situation and the politics and the way it goes down. I mean, I could see how that could be the mindset back 30 years ago. But now at this age, he's married, you've lived so much life,

you've seen so much death, like in particularly the people that you were with that day, that you would think that after a while, You would hope that there would be some growth in that in that situation. And it does not appear to be the case. So Tupac was 25 years old. Yeah. Not 26.

Biggie was 24 when he died. 24. Both of you guys are older right now than notorious B.I.G was when he passed away. Y'all haven't accomplished shit. No, I'm just choking. I didn't get to LA until I was 26. That's like minus four uncle points. Yeah, my, ah, damn, that's true.

Actually, or, or. Uncles do kind of talk like that. They do, but like, or you could. If he had been brothered himself, they'd be minus four, but as unc, like. Well, actually, I would have said the opposite. If it was big brothered, I don't know, my brothers would be talking like that. It was all you guys have accomplished a lot. It was a joke.

Right. But you guys have accomplished, it was a little joke. But just think about 24 years old. 24 years old. 20 fucking 40. Yeah. And I was 11 when both of them passed away. And they just felt so much larger than life.

Like that's why I thought they were so much older. It wasn't until I got older that I was like, oh my gosh, they were only this age. We were going to cover what's happening right now with the, with the Little Dirt trial, but we're going to wait because we're going to have a guest on that. I've been watching all of this stuff about the little Dirt trial. Not looking good for Dirk right now. Not looking good for Dirk.

Everybody's trying on. Yeah, he's had a couple of his compadres cooperate. It seems like there was a lot of strife inside of the OTF family, whether Dirk knew it or not. But right now, it doesn't seem good for Dirk. Let me ask you this legal eagle question. And let's see, let's see. What does it take to beat direct witness testimony?

Okay, so look, just think about this. So let's say that I'm flipping on Bernard. You know, I'm like, Bernard has ordered something allegedly, and I'm Sammy the Bull or somebody, and I'm going to tell that I did these murders, and it was because Big B, Bernard wanted me to do the murders. And I give direct testimony.

that Bernard told me to do this. How do you beat that? What do you do to beat that? Like, how does the defense beat this person that's admitting to having killed these people and saying that they were put up to it? I mean, I'm sure there's various ways, but the best way would be to have direct evidence

that what they're saying is not true. Like someone's saying, I'm not telling you to kill nobody. Yeah, I never told you to do that. Or, I mean, like, it's going to be hard to say, oh, I never said that. you know, if you don't have a text message or a phone call or paperwork, the best thing he could do is I was, I don't know, wherever you said I was at that time, I wasn't there.

Well, it's, but there, I get it, they're saying he ordered it. It's tough. It's tough. It also seems like there are slight things in everybody's stories that don't match up. But even those things are more circumstantial. the big things in everybody's story that's testified so far the big things seem to kind of match up

yeah you have to be able to prove like because if it's he said she said you're going off of that person saying I believe them so if you're the defense you have to make them unbelievable you have to bring character witnesses you have to show examples that they're lying you're obviously going to first say to the jury

they made a deal with with the prosecution in order to not have the death penalty or life in prison or whatever. So they're already motivated to turn against me. Now let me also show you why they are an unreliable witness because they lie, they cheat,

they've done this before, they've done that. Like your best thing to do is to take away their credibility. Well, it's important that we say that I'm not like, I don't have a rooting interest in this. I'm not, I'm just, the only reason why I'm asking is because like it seems in this situation that everything's pretty damning. But then you hear some people's opinions

and they go, maybe he can, he can beat it. Yeah, because remember, they have to prove around a reasonable doubt. So, like, if you can create doubt, like, they're not credible. They're motivated by this. They hate me.

They did, like, then you're creating doubt. There's an interesting component in this particular dirt case. What? The, uh, the fans. Are for dirt. No. The,

okay. So, when I was listening to hip hop growing up, And it's not all hip hop that I'm about to talk about, it's just real. But when I was listening to hip hop growing up, it was certain times when I knew that niggas was lying. Like, particularly cash money. Who in cash money? We knew that cash money were rich because we would go to clubs in New Orleans and Baton Rouge and you will go in the club and all the drinks would be free.

because Baby or somebody from cash money had come and bought the bar. Yeah, but isn't it that they grew up a certain way? We know they reached out. I know. But what I'm saying is when you would listen to the records, at the end of these records, Baby would be saying shit like, yeah, nigger, I got a penthouse in the Superdome.

I wake up when the Saints start practicing. And you would be like, okay, that's probably not true, right? Like Baby would say something like, I just put a down payment on the 2003 bins. It's 1998. that's probably not true. Baby was saying shit like, yeah, nigga, just got off the phone with Bill Gates,

told him I was going to lend them $5 million. And you'd be like, all right, we know what you're saying. What you're saying is you have a lot of money and you're saying it in a grandiose way. Was there a discussion about the fact that maybe they weren't quite as rich as what they said they were? Yeah, but we knew that they were rich.

So it didn't really matter. Like nobody went up to baby that I could remember and was like, hey, nigger, show us your penthouse in the Superdome that you have. Like show us that. The fans in this situation kind of played a part in this because, and I'm not blaming the fans for this because this is kind of like stuff that Dirk was saying

his raps and stuff like that. When Vaughn was killed in November of 20, the fans sort of parts of the fan base demanded retaliation. Like when you're going to slide for Vaughn? Now, the only reason why that they were doing that is because in the raps

it would be like, if something happens to one of my people, we're going to slide, we're going to do this, we're going to go crazy, we're going to do this, we're going to do all of that stuff. But part of the testimony here says if you believe these guys that are testifying that Vaughn heard people, excuse me, that Dirk heard people saying

fly for Vaughn and it affected him. and it like at least felt like there was a little pressure on him to do it. Wow. That's nuts. It is. Like the drill thing was still the most interesting, and it's largely dead now, but it was the most interesting experiment in pop culture because it was the first time that I can remember in hip hop. that it was like

I'm telling you about people that we've actually killed stuff that we've actually done somebody actually died and we're going to fuck them we smoking on their shit and the fans didn't have to believe that you were actually tough because back in the day rappers would say stuff

and that stuff was so that we believe that they were tough so as long as we believe that they were tough that was one thing but with some of this music it was like you have to actually believe that these people were not just capable of murder, but had done it.

And this is at the, if not at the forefront of this trial, it's a large portion of it that the fact that he was expected to retaliate and actually go out and get some of Cuando Rondo's people hit, or Cuando Rondo himself, because of what happened to Vaughn,

that it might have affected negatively Durk's career, and he felt that. Like there was this ecosystem of actual murder that existed inside of the music. So yeah, you think if he didn't do something he thought it would have, or just he was very close to Vaughn, it was upset

that. Which is true. That's a part of it as well. He was very close to Vaughn and so he was definitely hurt that this was happening. But just to know that that's a component that you feel like you got to do. I'm not saying that that hasn't existed in hip hop before because think about it. If somebody

dis you, then the fan's going to be like, what have you said? And then you're going to have to diss them and the whole thing. I'm not saying that that hasn't been a thing. Some of that, though, was created by the type of music that they were putting, like the expectation that was placed on you is based off of the content that you were rapping. Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt. And they were saying that if something happened on one of mine, we're going to slot and stuff.

Man, I said this before. It's people that I interviewed for hip-hop homicides. They didn't last to the premiere of the show. Yeah, that's... They were dead by the time the show premiered. And it was like really, really nuts. But I don't know. I wonder if, you know, drill is not as popping as what it used to.

But I wonder if dirt gets convicted if this is officially the end of drill. Who's big in drill right now? I don't know. Like, I saw Fabio Forin is now... Is he drill? He was drill. Five Y'O Forrin was now? Was he not?

That was drill. It was Brooklyn Drill. Was that not Brooklyn Drill? Am I tripping? Maybe he wasn't. But he's doing gospel now. Really? Oh, good friend. Like doing gospel now. Doing gospel now. Him and D1 and got doing some stuff. Pop Smoke passed away.

King Vaughn was killed. Dirk is in trouble. All the Atlanta, Hulana, Huluo. The Atlanta stuff, well, I think Julio Fulio was Jacksonville. Oh, Florida, Florida. Yeah. Sorry, yeah, King Herbo to be droom. People consider him to be drunk.

Yeah. But I just think a lot of the movement, whether it was Chicago, Jacksonville, or Brooklyn, it doesn't seem like it's popping the same way that it was, maybe three, four years ago. I feel like when, yeah, when I was in college, like, 2018, 2019, like, it was popping. So we have more on... Huh? Pop Smoke died. Yeah, Pop Smoke was one of the most 20 years old.

Yeah. Man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, man. Man, man. 20 years old All right Rachel what else we got? What do you want to do? None of these? None of them?

You pick. You definitely doing the last one because you tease it at the top of the show. There are eight Democrats that voted to join the Republicans. I'll tell you something. Like, you know, all of these people are who they are will read their names. Castor, Henry Curler. Quiller.

Quiler? Quailer, I can never say his name. How you say his name? Look it up. He's from Texas. Don Davis, Jared Golden, Vincent A Gonzalez, Gloucelsenkaan-Perez, and Darren Soto. Cullier. Cullier, Quailer.

I can never say his name. I see him on the shows all the time. I can never say his name. So those people have revealed themselves to be controlled opposition, but I will give credit to this. The majority of the Democratic Party, including Hakeem Jeffries, stayed out of this bear trap. Quailer. Huh? Quailer.

Quailer. There were, though, a sector of Democrats, though, who said, if the SAVE Act was not a part of this, they would have voted. They would have voted for it. So I'm not going to give them too much because it made me wonder, well, then how many of you were there? It feels like there were a lot more that would have voted to condemn socialism, which it conflates. Whatever. I don't even get on all that. It's generalization within this resolution that was a resolution that was put forward.

But, yeah, I'm not going to give them too much. Should we do a socialism episode? We have prominent socialists or one prominent socialist come on here and maybe explain socialism. I would love for a socialist to come on here and talk about how they are not DSA. What do you mean? Well, like, DSA is not like a full out. You're not a full out socialist. Yeah, well, I was about to say the socialists that you're talking about then would be to the left of the DSA.

That's what I'm talking about. I want because that is what this, the fear mongering that they're trying to do with what they're putting it pushing forward. Socialism is a broad thing and they fit underneath it. You should be terrified because they want the government to own everything. They want the people to control everything. I would love somebody to come on the left of DSA and talk about how they're like they're actually, we're not them. They're softer than we are. I want that for the people who, and we might be preaching to the.

The audience might know it, but I think it would be a really great episode because too often, moderate, centrist Democrats are lumping, as we see, are lumping them all in together, and they're not the same. And you constantly find members of DSA saying, no, this is what we stand for. This is what we stand for. So I would actually love both. Cool. I think that's a good idea. I have some people that could possibly come on the podcast to do this. Brianna could come on.

Voldemort could come on. Should I say his name? You should say his name and not call him Voldemort. The Voldemort, Hassan Piker, has been waiting to come on to... Not Hassan Piker. Oh, my God. Not he who shall not be named. Will he taint us with his brutality?

Well, allegedly, he already got you. What you mean? Hassan, is Hassan. That's what they say. It's a song. Will he taint us with his brutality? We could have him on. We could have Brianna Joy Gray on.

We could have Butch back on again. Okay? We know a lot of fun socialists that we could have on. We know a lot of fun ones. And we know some people that are actually socialist, but they don't want to actually say that they're socialist, but they're socialists. And we could have a conversation about whether or not there's a compromise

between socialism and capitalism. Are you a social, you believe, is a social democracy? DSA. Some people think that's a bridge too far. I think DSA is a spectrum. Okay. Oh. Well, I mean, we talked about it a little bit when we had Rohon.

So sometimes it's just DSA in college and he said, do you believe working within the system or do you believe the other part of it? And I think that there's a very, like there's two parts to it, at least I've seen. Yeah. I think if you're a DSA, you have to work. You're part of Democratic Party. So, yeah. So be interested. Maybe we'll reach out to, maybe we'll do somebody from, there's a DSA chapter here in Los Angeles, bring them on.

That'd be great. Okay, have a conversation. I'm a socialist. You want a socialist. You want a motherfucking fucking Marxist. You don't hear and talk about that real shit. You know what I'm saying?

Engels, nigga. All right, cool. So this video is from East Star Universe. Okay? And actually, I want to, I want to wait. I don't want to say where I saw it first. I already did, actually.

You already did. So this video is from at East Star Universe. It's very educational. Play the video. They want your legs closed in public, but open and private. So here are three reasons you feel stiff talent when you try to move sensually. Let's get into the sauce. Number one, you're watching yourself instead of feeling yourself.

And for this reason, so many of us have insecurities when it comes to our bodies that prevent us from actually accessing sensuality. Because sensuality is not about sex. It's less about how it looks and more about how it feels. So let's keep it real. Number two. Your brain hasn't built

the movement vocabulary yet. Because sensual movement requires coordination between your hips, your spine, your rib cage, and of course, your shoulders.

Athletic. If you've never practiced... Then of course you're going to be stiff. All right, let's get into number three if you catch my drift. You may have learned at a very young age that certain movements was not safe. Maybe the people who raised you told you to behave a particular way. But you don't become sensual by performing sensuality. You develop the mobility, coordination, and safety to actually experience yourself.

And if you are having difficulty connecting to your sensual practice, your orgasmic movement, then hi, my name is a star and I help women become more flexible, mind, body, and soul through movement, meditation, and music. And if that's something that you know you're ready for, drop in power down below. And I'll send you the link to join my upcoming community cohort. I love you. So my mom put this video in her stories. So I'm scrolling through and I look at my mom's stories and boom.

Oh, wow. She's got over a million followers. She's doing her thing. I went to the, and star is in there. Immediate follow. So this is what my thing is right here. This is what I was trying to tell you guys about my mother before. When I said earlier that I wanted my mom and look, I'm not going to go back and say it

again because it really bothers everyone. Yeah, you should love this. That I wanted my mom to experience. sensuality and her life and all of that stuff like that. That's what I want that for my mom. Well, you more so talked about the sexuality versus the sensuality, which there's a... Sexuality, sensuality.

Well, there's a difference, and that's what she's talking about. Yeah. So I'm wondering if here on higher learning, we should let my mom come on here. Anytime. And promote active, sensuality and the name. It's Star and my mom, because when I saw this from Mom, I was like, yeah.

At first I was like, what? And then after that, I was thinking, this is what Mama be on. This is what I want for my mama. Yeah, this is like a healthy practice. Yeah. Right? And I love how she started off because she's like, do I have your attention now? But it's much more.

She had my attention. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she had all of our attention. But it's much more about like not being, getting rid of the things. especially like I understood exactly she was talking about she's like you might have been told that you weren't supposed to do this or this and this it's like getting rid of all of that and just being in touch with your body mind and soul and how that will release you in so many ways that is beautiful she had an immediate follow for me can ask you a question please as a woman go ahead sorry tough no I'm I'm I that's the right response because if if you were white and you said as a black guy, I'd be like, tough. Like, I don't know.

As a woman, how much of your sensuality do you feel like is caged? Like, let's say we lived in a world that was less judgmental about the amount or let's say we lived in a safer world that was less judgmental and less dangerous. You're talking about women feeling shame around sensuality. Sometimes expressing that sensuality in this society can be dangerous, right? If you were freer to do it, do you think that you would do it more? Absolutely. Absolutely. Give me an example.

Well, I'm not going to, let me just say, obviously women were taught like we weren't supposed to enjoy these things, right? You're not supposed to feel good sexually. you're not supposed to be overt like with your sexuality or like physically you're not supposed to do these things right that's for the man we're more like just there like to be used so I and then also I grew up in a very religious environment where purity culture

and you wait till marriage and all of that so like all of those things when you grow up in that way it it stays with you no matter at least for me like it's always a thought, even though I feel like I've moved past it in a lot of ways. So, yeah, like, I think that I would be more vocal about my personal life or maybe things that I like without, you know, worrying about what my mom or my dad may think or how that may make them look or, you know, stuff like that.

I'm not going to give you examples, but I think people get the gist of it. I'm just saying, like, you know. I think that's beautiful. Could you imagine you out there with E-Star, like in a video? The Star? I could imagine me out there with her with no video. I'm not going to open my legs like that to the camera. That's just not going to happen.

But I mean, the reality is that you got to be free to open your legs. You can free. They want you to open your legs in private but closing in the public. I can be free and express my, my freeness in other ways. It doesn't have to be exact that. A star is, okay. What about you, Jay. Jay, not even fucking with it.

Jade is like, Jay don't care. What was the question? So you're not even paying attention to that motherfucking podcast. I was actually. doing stuff for the podcast. Like, do you feel in a cage, in a sensual cage, well, you can't be sensuous? No.

Oh. No. But I, yeah, I feel like. Yeah, I feel like, you know, at least I feel like growing up, I feel like, I feel like, I don't know, especially my mother was always open about, like, education. me and making sure that, you know, like, you're doing the things you are supposed to do to be protected, but also not being afraid to express yourself.

And then also I think as I got older, I started seeing a lot of things on social media about movement and sensuality and making sure that you're taking care of yourself, especially as a woman, in that way. You know? I think that's great. I think it's amazing to. That it's that way.

You know what? You know what I liking this too? So I've always been like an emotional guy. It's an emotional guy. Like it's just like an emotional guy. I remember like going to the Lion King. We went to the Lion King as a group to go see it. And I just remember being in the movie and having the deep feeling of like wanting to cry.

Like having the deep feeling of wanting to cry at several different times. in the movie and just being like, there's no fucking way with me and a couple, and like people from class that I can fucking cry over the cartoon. That's it. And that same year or maybe a year after, and this is not, it was a different time. So I'm, no. In fact, there was a girl that they were called no draws. Okay.

This girl that called no draws. Okay. And it's because she did not wear panties. And I remember her. Because I'll tell you why I remember her. Because, like, I remember people like this in my life. She didn't give a fuck. She was like, I don't like the way that it feels.

This feels good. And when she would say stuff like that, niggles would be like, oh, shit, you're rubbing your shit all over the place. And she'd be like, no, this feels, this, I don't like the way that it feels. I don't like the way that it feels. This, for me, for whatever, feels better. and I always looked up to no draws

just fuck it the fact that y'all called her no draws honestly contradicts it well I mean they call her that it'd be like you but I'm not gonna say it man why can't she just be Crystal Crystal and that's you learned Are you saying that my mama is no draws

I forgot that's her not That's crazy seriously what just happened That's literally the first thing They're like Crystal Ashley sorry sorry Miss Crystal But I'm not gonna say a name now but like I will call her by her name

but like people will call her no draws Yeah and so like I just thought about the fact that no draws was, she was brave enough, didn't feel anything about it. Just was like There's a freedom. There's power on that for sure. Fuck what y'all niggas talking about.

But I couldn't cry in the Lion King. I want everybody to be able to be free, sensually. Sensual freedom. I agree. Thank you for sharing that. That's a new follow. I love that. It's star. Thank you to Mom. Yeah, yeah. Miss Crystal, thank you.

Putting us on. Yeah. I love that she has that freedom. Go buy my mom's book, Huzzy. By C-L-E-E-L-E-L-S-E-S-Y. H-U-S-S-Y. Go buy the book. If you read the book, you'll understand my mother.

Go pick up the book, Hussy. She wrote it. All right, that's it. We'll have any more podcasts. A lot of stuff we talked about here. Up now. And we had more to do, but we had to let it go. We did.

We did. We're going to talk about Joe Rogan. Rogan thing, I'm going to save it for Monday. That's that. We have guests next week? We do. Who's on the guest list? We've got Daniel Brooks and Walter Thompson Hernandez on Thursday.

Yeah, Daniel Brooks is coming on. No pod on Monday, though. No pod on Monday, guys. No pod on Monday. I'm forgetting that. I might show up. It's Labor Day. Thank you for the reminder.

We're just in a zone. It's like, oh, yeah, shout out to, shout out to U-Fi-U. had no idea that you were a part of the D-10. Should I? Should I? What? No, no.

You-Fi-U. I don't know, but wow. Vance been keeping a secret. You-F-U-F-U. Shout out to Gino. Shout out to Gino for putting us on. My goodness. You tried to say, oh, I told you that.

I definitely talked about that. Do you think we would forget? Well, I'm just saying, ain't no way you said that before. I definitely have said that before. You might have been passing said U-Fi-U, but I probably thought it was like a me-f-me-thing and just like kept it going.

But we did not fully investigate. So thank you to Gino, who asked the right questions, who pushed Van to admit that not only has he been a part of, well, it is to the Thought Warriors that you have pledged, hazed.

Yeah. Because, you know, Delta Sigma Theta, Sorority Incorporated, is a non-hasing organization. Maybe you... You have... It's paper, but... You are founding member.

You have a sign. You have a sign. You have a call, you have colors, you have a struggle, what did they call you? What was your name online? Big sexy. What number were you? Three. I was the three too.

Oh, for real? Yeah. I was a three. I was big sexy. Wow. I was big sexy. Big sexy. Yeah, big sexy.

What was Ryan's name? I can't remember something about, yeah, I was three. I was big sexy. Were you the tail? Yeah, I was the tail. So on this line, this was a special. session because these were people that were going to go be chapter founders. Okay.

So we were going to like evangelize U-FiU to different places. I'll say it one last time. It all makes sense. You know. Hey man. Take your thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen Jr. Shout out to U-FiU.

No, no, no, no. You have Van Big Sexy. Van Big Sexy. Van Big Sexy Lathen Jr. O-D. And I'm Rachel the Cardinal, Lindsay. The Cardinal. That was my name online.

Oh, very special. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Crazy enough, because you know I can't stand birds, too, even though it admits something different. In midst something different. Anyways, that's it. Bye, guys.