Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Reacting to the Lack of Indictments in the Breonna Taylor Case

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss the grand jury results in the Breonna Taylor case, and then civil rights and civil liberties attorney Novella Coleman joins to discuss the legal specifics of the case. Then Van and Rachel do a short mailbag and give instant reactions to Tory Lanez’s IG Live when he spoke about his incident with Megan Thee Stallion. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? It is I, Van Lathan. And it's I, Rachel Lindsay. What's up? What's up? Higher learning? You know, I don't know if, I keep forgetting to say higher learning at the beginning of it.

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions applies. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. I didn't say it. I think it's been a couple of times that I haven't said it. Do you want me to, you want, it should probably be sad at the top. I think I do. Yeah.

Yeah, okay. So we'll like it, going forward, you guys know, just hope you, you're listening to higher learning right now. Just let you know, your education, no, you're listening to a higher learning. But going forward, I definitely will say this. Now, listen, we have to begin. We're going to talk about, you know, we're going to have fun on the podcast, as much fun as we can. but we have to talk about something right now.

We have to talk about, as racial tastes a swig of wine, I'm with you. As we record this podcast right now, it is Thursday. It is Thursday around 3 o'clock. So we've had just about 24 hours, a little longer than that,

to digest the decision that was made in Kentucky over the murder. of Brianna Taylor, the killing of Brianna Taylor. Just so everyone knows, none of the police officers, the three police officers that are responsible for her death,

were indicted directly for that. There was a charge that was put on Brett Hankinson, and that charge, I think, was wanton endangerment because he fired into the apartment complex where she lived and threatened the lives of other people that lived

in that apartment complex. There were bullets that went through walls, and whatever, whatever. So the life that they took, no actual charges based upon it. The fact that they could have taken other lives, fell in account for Brett Hankinson, that if you ask me, is a window dressing charge. Okay, we're here now. This is the day that we feared. We have been asking for months and months. And when I say we, I mean black people, but I also mean anyone who loves freedom, justice, and equality in America, and sees the death of an innocent black lady in her home for no reason as a sort of an attack on freedom justice and equality. These people have been asking to arrest the cops that killed Breonna Taylor.

And it does not seem as if they are going to get that wish. These cops are not going to be indicted. justice, as far as we're concerned, is not going to be served. Basically, I will put it in the most simplest terms I can. We lose again. Now, I know we talked about a $12 million settlement to Breonna Taylor's family. And that's a lot of money. And along with that settlement came, I guess, some other promises of reform as well.

And that's good, too. But none of us, the whole of us can't be protected unless the one of us is protected. And unless I'm missing something, Rachel, it doesn't seem like this decision amounted to or added up to any protection to anyone who's black. It seems like once again, it's open season. It is open season. And as you pointed out, yes, she received $12 million or the family. of Rihanna Taylor received $12 million. Yes, they are talking about reforms

that need to be made. Yes, they got away with the no-knock warrant, but it still doesn't address the issues that came about with this tragedy, this murder that happened at the hands of the police. This was avoidable. And I think that is what's so troubling about all of this. This wasn't an accident.

This could have been avoided. When you break down what led to, those police officers storming into Brianna Taylor's apartment, this was avoidable. Mistakes were made. And I haven't seen anything other than the no-knock warrant where they are addressing those mistakes that were made procedurally by these police, which means, as you said, it's open season and it can happen again. I think my biggest issue, not my biggest issue, the biggest issue is that nothing was done.

but I had such an issue with you, like what you said, with Daniel Cameron. I sat at work and watched the entire press conference and I was irate. I was upset. So that's why when I saw what you posted, I was like, okay, you're thinking we're on the same page with this. I'm mad at him because this is an opportunity he had to really stand up and he didn't. but the truth is, I never expected anything more from him. So when Daniel Cameron spoke at the RNC, he gave a speech and he talked directly to Joe Biden,

and he specifically said, I am black and we are not all the same. And he was making that in reference to Joe Biden saying, if you don't vote for me, you ain't black. Honestly, that's the realest thing that Daniel Cameron has ever said. When he was questioned by reporters at the press conference yesterday, they continue to ask him about the makeup of the grand jury. And it's obviously a secret proceeding.

He cannot mention names. But it is my understanding that there is nothing that prohibits him from discussing the makeup in regards to the gender and the race of this grand jury. And at one point, he replies to a reporter and he says, well, I'm black. So that should answer your question. That's enough. And in that moment, he contradicted himself.

by generalizing that because he is black, he is representative of all black voices, which is a distinct, a stark contrast to what he said at the Republican National Convention. And so using his own words against him, I am black and we are not the same, Daniel Cameron, which is along what you said in your social media post.

Nothing that Daniel Cameron has done in regards to this case has been about fighting for the equality of blacks in the legal system. And I have a huge issue of you trying to show off your blackness as a prop, as a character trait, or as some type of accessory when it's convenient for you at a press conference or at the Republican National Convention. Nothing you have done has been for blacks in regards to this case. I can't speak to what he's done before as an attorney general. I'm going to speak as what he's done in regards to Rihanna Taylor. Sure. And that's why I never expected anything from him more than what he's.

he gave us at this press conference. I never was expecting him to announce something that was in favor of blacks and seeking justice in regards to Brianna Taylor. When he had the opportunity to rise to the occasion and represent himself as a black man fighting for the rights of blacks, he felled. And I'll tell you why. It took six months, six months for him to bring this case to a grand jury. It should never have taken that long. While he's out having a celebration for his new engagement. Black people in your city, cities, counties, this state are suffering. Two, he's an elected official. Attorney General's are endorsed by police. They're endorsed by police reunions. They stand on an initiative of being tough on crime. And if he doesn't align himself with that, he's got this

image to uphold, right? These are the people that elected him. These are the very people who put Mitch McConnell in office, the people who are electing him into office. He would not have received this job if he did not have the support of the police. He said, so he has this image to uphold. Number three, did you know that Mitch McConnell was his mentor? Yes, this man. Nuff said, put a period right there, because if you listen to Higher Learning, we've talked in depth about Mitch McConnell and how corrupt he is.

Next one, at the Republican National Convention, he had the opportunity to use his platform to stand up and speak on the case about Breonna Taylor. And instead, he reduced her to one sentence where he mentioned her and David Dorn in the same sentence and talked about healing the nation's wound. And the last thing is that Trump refers to him as a star. Look at the people that Trump calls a star. Giuliani, William Barr, Mitch McConnell, Lady G., Brett Kavanaugh, and now Daniel Cameron. This is somebody, the people that he calls stars or the people who align themselves with his agenda and push his initiatives forward. Basically, they are sheep and indebted to him. That is Daniel Cameron. So why would we expect Daniel Cameron to do anything

less. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So that means that Trump will probably fire Daniel Cameron and fire him at some point. Well, how will that has happened? Everyone that Trump calls a star. You serve this role. Your star today. Your trash tomorrow. But you guys keep running out to be on Team Trump when all he does is stab everyone in the back, whatever. Well said. All of those things absolutely well said. I couldn't echo them or agree with them anymore. you know, I think about these things from a systemic level as well when you say that mistakes were made. The Louisville police budget is $200 million, right? So it's not one of the police budgets like we see in New York and L.A.

Oh, I thought that was a lot. Sorry. No, no, it is. It is a lot. No, no, it most certainly is a lot. It most certainly is a lot. It's a lot of money. $200 million is a lot of money.

But, you know, when you see New York, it's $6 billion. LA is $3 billion. So when you're talking about money like that, and then you say $200 million, you think, hey, that's not as much as those places. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on the police. So I want everybody to talk about, let's go right back to the framework

of us talking about sort of what goes on in these police departments and things of that nature. So the Louisville Police Department has a $200 million dollar budget. They were wrong about coming to Brown-Taylor's home. they who they were coming there to get hadn't lived there in months. So the $200 million that the money that we're pouring into the police department is not creating competent enough cops to know who the fuck they want to get.

Okay. So that mistake directly ends up leads to, to somebody being killed. Cops barging there on a no-knock. Now, another thing about the money, they have a battering ring. Like, they don't knock on the door, right? They have a battering ram, okay?

A battering ram. In here in this home, where I live right now, there is a Benelli M3 Super that is a shotgun, okay? It's a big shotgun, like on John Wick, right? it goes from pump action to automatic. If I'm in

a situation where I need to make sure that the weapon will never jam and it's really hairy I'll use the pump. But if I'm in a place where my weapon is oiled up, I know that it's good and I need to get off a lot of rounds at once, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If it's super hairy, you know what I mean? Then I'll go automatic with it. I can tell you

one thing. If you come through that door right there and you use a battering ram on that door, and I don't know who you are. There are conflicting reports about whether or not the police officers identified themselves. Of course, they say they identify themselves. But the defense lawyer for Breonna Taylor's boyfriend says that there's multiple people who say the police did not identify themselves, right? Yeah, they said they found one witness. They found one witness. One witness. All the people who lived

in this apartment complex, one. One witness, right? One witness that the police identified themselves. So if you take a battering ramp and you're battering against the door, and I'm sleeping my bed, and I hear this, someone kicking in or smashing in my door, and it wakes me up or it's late at night or whatever it is, I'm back there. When you meet me into my house, you are going to meet the shotgun. I want people to understand that that is the purpose of the shotgun. The purpose of the shotgun is not for me to go around, waving around in Instagram videos and look like a tough guy and stuff like that.

The purpose of the shotgun is not even to take it out to the range and be a big. I'm not a gun collector. The purpose of my shotgun that I own is home protection. It is for the worst case scenario if somebody comes in here. If somebody comes in here, I can protect the people that live in this home. Right. Okay. I can protect it.

So if you come into that door and knowing the stakes, right, if you're coming to that door, you have better be fucking right. You need to be right. And when we talk about waste in the police system, we're talking about the fact that they have all this military type of equipment, right? Equipment, which is bought through the $200 million that these budgets have, right? But they have zero seemingly of the training needed to execute or do their jobs, right? Execute bad word.

They definitely executed someone that day. But they have zero of the training needed to do their jobs and not put members of the community in harm's way, which is their job. Right. Right. So we're looking at policing here. We're looking at what it means. We're looking at $200 million that the taxpayers are paying for and then now $12 million that the taxpayers are paying for

and getting nothing out of it but death. Add to that with the money, the body cams. Right. We give you all this money. What's the story? They either weren't working or they didn't have them. I don't know. But either way it goes, our money goes towards that too.

They're there for a purpose. we can't even use them, or at least there's some, I don't know if there's some type of cover-up or whatever it may be, they are not part of the evidence in this case. Right. The police and the body cams are essentially the same thing. It's seemingly high-tech equipment that never ever works when you really need it to. Right. I mean, they're essentially the same thing. So I'm just asking people, and we're talking about this system that ended up in the death of Breonna Taylor. Like, seriously, how long do we have to deal with this? If Brianna Taylor is Brittany Taylor,

long flowing blonde hair down her back, an EMS, you're going to get stories and teary-eyed stories of people with names like Brock and Brett and Sandra that are going to tell you about how she just wanted to spend, her life helping people. She just wanted to spend her life being a public servant.

You know, if you have that face, gone, mid-20s, does Daniel Cameron and the rest of the people down there, do they react differently to that, right? Do they react differently to a situation to where

justice and finding out how things went so terribly wrong, where it makes them a hero in their community. Because see, the heroic thing for Daniel Cameron to do when he's tethered to Mitch McConnell, he did the heroic thing. He looks like a hero to a lot of people

because he stood on the side of the status quo. Right. So in his mind and in their mind, they got exactly what they want. Meanwhile, the American citizen is dead. I want you guys to understand something. I appreciate the memes about, you know, I'm sorry, Brianna, that your neighbor's life.

I want you guys to remember something about those memes. She can't read them. Apologizing to Brianna Taylor and saying that you're sorry to Brianna Taylor, I'm sure that that makes people feel good. Brianna Taylor is dead. They killed her. Okay? She's dead.

I want people to consider the stakes of what it is that we're talking about. Every time I talk about this, I lose my fucking mind. Like they killed her. There's no tomorrow for her. There's no Christmas. She's not going to be around when we come out of this. She's not going to be able to go and see when all of this is over and we're in the park and the sun is beaten on our skin and we figure all of this out.

And life is back to normal. Breonna Taylor gets none of that. None of it. They took it from her. And what do we get? What does society get? The society even get. this was wrong, we're going to show you guys that this will never happen again. No, they don't get anything.

People talk about white supremacy being a dark part about America, right? That's a lie. It's not true. People think that white supremacy is the night. It's the murky part. It's the part that's at the bottom. It's the part that you can't see. That's wrong. White supremacy in America is the sun. It is the most, obvious thing in the sky that has warmed and nurtured this country since its inception. It is what has grown the American field. It is what has created the American way of life, white supremacy, from the get-go. Yeah. And I'm sorry that that's a fact, guys, but it is. White supremacy grew this country off the backs of

child slavery. Absolutely. Off the backs of the destruction of a civilization that was already living here. Off the backs of denying any reparations to African slaves who built the country, but then giving away millions and millions of acres of land to white peasants that came over that turned into billions upon billions of dollars worth of resources. That system is still alive today. And what's happening, well, it's still alive today everywhere.

but that's what we're talking about when we're talking about the death of Brianna Taylor. We're talking about hundreds of years of systemic and intentional injustice that ends up taking the real lives of people to where their time

on earth gets cut short because somebody else wants to keep things the way they are. I don't know what to tell y'all. I know what to tell them. Stop posting on social media. Stop doing stories. Don't wear a t-shirts. Don't do a hashtag. What we need you to do is to understand the why this is happening, right? Like, I get it. You see that a tragedy happened, but do you understand the why,

which you just explain, why we're upset, why this is continuing to happen? If you can't answer that question and you can't understand why these things are happening, then you can't help us. That's what you need to do for us. You need to understand. You want to be an ally? Understand. why this is happening and then figure out what you can do to change why this continues to happen to us. It is not bringing social awareness to it. That ain't it. Like we're past that. Look, it's our, remember the black box that existed months ago? Nobody, people are removing those black boxes from their social media. It's performative. We don't need you to perform with us. We need you to get in the trenches with us. And that can't happen until you understand why this is happening. And then you can

act on it. That's it. Yeah. I tell you what, if the son of white supremacy doesn't set in America, night will fall on this country. And I'm telling you guys right now that there are small

things that we're not paying attention to as to why things are so ratcheted up. Like, social media and the technology allows a minute to minute tethering and chronicleing of all of these systemic failures. It used to be one would happen and either it would become a big deal or it wouldn't

become a big deal. Yeah. Used to be the two would happen. It would become a big deal or it wouldn't become a big deal, right? But now, because we are more tethered than we are, because the culture is more homogenous than it's ever been, everyone feels like they all have a foot in this and a stake in this. And anything short of changing these things, it's not going to be a bit, it's not, it's not going to work. So when you talk about the Y, I was talking to Charlemagne about this,

about this this morning. And no one wants to have a conversation. No one wants to call this out. Like some of our elected officials, Biden and Kamala Harris, people like that. No one wants to talk straight into America about what is super racist and what is super wrong and what is systemic and ingrained in this country. It's almost like going to an oncologist, right? and I've made the cancer analogy before, so I'm not going to beat it to death, but it's almost like going to oncologists and you sit down and they start giving you treatments, right?

They start to tell, okay, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, you're going to do this, and you're asking, well, am I sick? And they won't tell you. They won't tell you exactly, they won't give you the diagnosis, right? They won't say, hey, this is what's going on with you. It's just giving you a bunch of half-hearted explanations

is what you should do to change it. We need the people that live in this country to have a real diagnosis of the American experience. We need honesty about that. And by the way, no one is saying that it's anybody's fault.

It's not your fault that things are the way they are now, but it will be your fault if they continue this way. Yes. So true. So, so I'm, So, I mean, if you feel, if you're in the, if, if, if you're in a notion of feeling guilty about what your ancestors did and you want to run from it, that's fine. Be that.

My grandfather stole a bunch of cars. I don't feel guilty about it at all. I don't feel, like, I don't, I don't feel guilty about it. That's what that nigger was on. You know what I'm saying? So I'm not asking for your guilt. I'm asking for your participation. Your guilt does nothing for me.

It doesn't make me feel good to look at it to watch you feel bad. A little bit. A little bit. Sometimes when you're a little uncomfortable is fun. No, sometimes when they're a little uncomfortable, it's like it's fun, just a little bit. But none of that makes me feel good. What makes me feel good is actually solving problems. And what went on with Brianna Taylor yesterday?

I just started thinking about I was resigned to the fact. that they were not going to step up and do what they need to do to let my sister rest the way she should. I knew that they weren't going to do that. I knew that that wasn't going to happen. But it just makes me think about the fact that what this really is, it's a battle over a system that continues to make this happen.

And that system, the casualties of this war, they're not abstract. They're real. Like people die People get killed People get thrown in jail For petty shit Like whole communities

Are victimized Right And now because of this You're gonna have more stuff So like We gotta get busy man Yeah We just have to get busy

You gotta stop hiding Behind the systems They protect you right They don't speak up Because these systems Protect their livelihood And self-preservation Is the first law of nature

Yeah Well look I tell you one thing the reality about that is there's there's no quarter. There's nowhere to hide. There's nowhere to run. It's like, you know, now I just find myself

during the day trying to get to points, try to get to places where I don't feel affected by COVID and what's going on outside and all that stuff. There's no place to go where you can get away from it. This is where we are. So fucking wash your hands, right? That's the only way you're going to deal with it. And in this situation,

going on with the lives of black people and policing in this country do the fucking work. Do the work. Everyone. Yeah. Are you okay? Are you okay with everything, Rachel? Have you been coping with it?

Yesterday, it's like I had to put on a face and suck it up because I was at work. It reminds me, not by any means, the same level, but it reminds me of when I was working at a law firm and I was clerking, and my mom called at work, and she goes, don't let those people see you cry when the verdict comes out. It was Michael Jackson.

But she was like, don't let them see you cry. And so obviously not anywhere near the same level, but that's what's stuck in my head. Don't get emotional, put on a face. Don't let them see you cry. So, I mean, I sucked it up yesterday, and I just started writing because that's a release for me. And I just immediately was just like,

how can I, how am I going to be able to express this on the podcast? How are we going to be able to talk about it? Because I feel like that's my safe place where I can say whatever it is that I'm feeling while at work. I had to be very professional. Yeah, it was tough. You know, I did some things to relax. You did some things to relax. Like what did you do to relax?

You know, just came home. You hit that blunt? I don't smoke blunts. You smoke joints? No. I didn't smoke. I didn't smoke. Do you smoke?

Do you smoke wheat? We never talked about this. Do you smoke weed? My people listen to them. My parents listen to my. Wait a second. Wait a second. But here's the thing, though. I don't like to lie.

I'll plead the fifth. But why can't you talk about that? Man, we're about to get so fucking high. I'm glad we can share this together. Why was your parents, it's legal here? I know your dad. It's legal in California, yes. Yeah, so what difference does it make?

You know, I'm not, I'm really not a smoker. But your dad would, you think your dad would look down on you? you if you smoke some weed. That ship has sailed. I went on The Bachelor. That ship has sold. Oh, you talked about it? No, I mean, like, look down on me. I went on reality TV. You know what I mean?

I could have been Novella, who we have later on in the podcast. Right, right. Novella Coleman, we're going to talk to we're going to talk to a prominent civil rights attorney about the ends and outs of the case in a second. But I'm back to this real quick. Your parents... I really had wine last night. That's true. You had wine. Not whatever. Okay, but your parents would judge you

if you smoked weeds, what you're saying? No, that's not the thing. I don't know if they would judge me. My parents are very private people. And so it's kind of like, stop telling everybody all your business type situation. I actually don't think they would look down on me. It's just like, Rachel, just keep some things to yourself. How does your dad?

He'll be 60. I don't know if you don't like his name. So he's 69 in October. Okay. You know that nigga got high. Like, you know he was alive. He's 70. And by the way, when he was doing it, it was illegal.

I can tell you right now, your dad was getting suited in law school. Like, what law school did he go to? No, my dad definitely wasn't. What law school did he? My dad is a person who does not like to lose control. So he doesn't drink, none of that. Like, my dad does not like to lose control. He went to University of Texas.

You went to youth. Okay, okay. That's how he and my mom met. My mom was in undergrad. My dad was in law school. Your mom knew what she was doing. Yeah. Your mom was in undergrad and your dad was in law school.

Okay. All right. She made a good decision. No, but we got to, sometimes you just got to get high though, Rachel. Sometimes you have to get high. Sometimes you have to get high. I don't know what to tell your parents. I can't wait to meet your dad.

I'm going to smoke with this man. He must leave my dad love. Sometimes you have to get hot. Now, in the hour since this, 127 arrests have been made down there. There have been mass protests down in unrest. 127 arrests have been made. Two Louisville police officers have been shot amid the protests, and the federal buildings have closed down.

You guys are looking at all of that stuff, and you're seeing it, and it's going to be politicized. It's going to be used. But I keep trying to tell you guys that we're living in a time where Americans are, they have so many things to sit in. There's so much death to sit in that they're not willing a lot of times to sit in murder. You're asking people to sit in murder. Murder is uncomfortable to sit in. Right. It don't feel good to sit in murder.

It doesn't feel good to sit in this type of injustice. And they're not going to do it. So that goes back to what we were saying about figuring it out. Now, what I didn't want to do and what we didn't want to do is dive too deep into the legalese of the entire Breonna Taylor case. Because we don't want to give any wrong information. We don't put any information out there that people cannot use to be more equipped, to be smarter, to be better informed on it. So I turn to someone who is very, very smart and who deals in the legal world all the time,

Ms. Novella Coleman, who is a civil rights attorney and a graduate, look at this, a graduate of both Stanford and Harvard. Man. Stanford, I think for undergrad and then Harvard Law School. It's interesting because Novella is stunting on us right now. She has Harvard Law School as her background and she joins us here. Yes, so Novella, thank you for joining us on higher learning today. I guess my first question is the ruling that came out from Kentucky yesterday that has everyone really.

based upon what you know about the case itself, how shocked are you that this was the decision that they came to in Kentucky? This decision is quite shocking. I think given the racism that exists in the criminal legal system, expectations were pretty low among attorneys, among community members

at this point that the grand jury would indict any of the officers for the killing of Brianna-Taylor just, it's rare. So I think expectations were already low, but then to add injury to insult, there was an indictment of one of the officers for endangering what appears to be Brianna-Taylor's white neighbors.

So the contrast of the legal system continuously devaluing black lives and then going out of their way to issue an indictment for wanton endangerment of her neighbors who were not actually injured really does poor wound in the salt or poor salt in the wound for a lot of community members when it comes to this issue

and was a charge that I did not expect to flow from the grand jury. I find it interesting too that you're saying like there should have absolutely been more done. but specifically because you're speaking as a civil rights attorney, because I feel like I hear a lot of people talk as if this was a really hard case legally to prove as if there wasn't much that could be done. And I'd really appreciate you speaking towards that as a civil rights attorney,

just to kind of maybe dispel that thought out there that this was a hard case to prove. At least to a grand jury. I think so I think the first thing that you have to, look at what the level of proof is for a grand jury to bring back an indictment. And one of the first things that I learned in my first year criminal law class at Harvard was that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich, meaning it doesn't take much because at the grand jury stage, the prosecutor controls what evidence is presented and can put on evidence that is only favorable and is in support of all of the state's witnesses.

So from that perspective, the outcome here begs the question, why did it the prosecutor put on the best evidence in order to show that Brianna was unlawfully killed? So how did we get to that point in the first place? And I think the answer is, the prosecutor and law enforcement are usually on the same side in most of criminal legal proceedings. And so it's not surprising that a prosecutor

would credit all the statements by law enforcement in this situation, which leads to a factual scenario where it is going to look harder to return charges against any of the officers for the death of Brianna Taylor. Because essentially, in this case, we're talking about, I guess, Daniel Cameron here. So in this, he's,

in cahoots with the police. So it's almost as if he's not seeking justice for Rihanna Taylor or for any American citizen who would be in that situation. It's almost seems as if he's doing his best to absolve the police of any wrongdoing. Let's talk about him specifically. As the AG there, who ended up dealing with this, how do you feel like he handled this? I've been very critical of Daniel Cameron, but my criticism of Daniel Cameron comes from the fact that I don't think it was communicated very well from him whether or not he actually cared about the loss of life and sort of what the community was going through. It didn't seem like he was vigorously trying to

find truth and justice for Brianna Taylor. But from a legal standpoint, is there anything more that the attorney general in Kentucky could have done? Yeah, there's definitely more that could have been done here. The attorney general could have presented the evidence to the grand jury. in a way that actually took as credible the statements of Breonna Taylor's boyfriend about what happened in this situation. As folks who were outside of that secret grand jury room, we don't know what happened. But we do know from a longstanding pattern over time that in these types of cases, the prosecutors who are in charge of bringing back charges or who bring evidence to the jury and jury,

often credit all of the statements of law enforcement and discredit the statements of community members, especially when they're people of color or black people, as in this instance. I remember talking about a lot about grand jury proceedings around Eric Garner when the grand jury decided not to indict that officer. And there was a lot of talk about grand jury proceedings. And I do want to get into that a bit.

But one thing that, and I'm not sure if you were able to see Daniel Cameron's press conference, probably best that you did miss it if you did. But one of the things he talked about was, I don't remember if he used the word self-defense. But as you stated, you know, grand jury proceedings are very one-sided and you're hearing the prosecution's case

and the defendant is not in the room. And neither is the defense attorney. Am I right about that or no? Right. Right. So it's very one-sided and they're getting a case that the prosecution is presenting to them.

So I'm confused about this. and I wonder if you could put some clarity on this, the self-defense that was mentioned. So one of the things that Daniel Cameron mentioned in his press conference is that the reason that they were not able to charge the police officers who fired inside the apartment at Brianna Taylor and at Kenneth Walker were that,

were because he fired first, and they were responding to that, to him firing off his gun. I'm confused as to why that the, mention of self-defense was brought into the grand jury proceeding, especially when you can recklessly kill a third party who did not imminently put your life in danger. How is that even possible that they could discuss that during a grand jury proceeding? Well, Rachel, you're totally right to point out why is this presented during the grand jury proceeding, the self-defense question.

More often than not, self-defense is what lawyers call an affirmative defense. That's That means if you kill somebody, whether the killing was lawful or not, the prosecution has the burden of proving that you unlawfully killed. And the defense has the burden of proving that it was justified under a law of self-defense or under another law. So when you think about the role of the prosecutor before the grand jury, it's not to preemptively raise points that the defense attorney. would make at an open court hearing, a probable cause hearing, arraignment, or any other type of setting. As Rachel pointed out, the defense attorney is not in the grand jury room. So that means if folks are talking about self-defense in the grand jury room, then somebody is in there saying, well, this is the point that the defendant could make, even though he's not here.

And so one has to wonder how much the prosecutor was preemptively making those points for any of the potential defendant law enforcement officers about their right to barge into that apartment, to fire indiscriminately and to ultimately kill Brianna Taylor. And when you think about the cases of the many, many black and brown people who go through the criminal legal system and who are indicted, were charged, I would be surprised if the prosecutor in those settings are saying, oh, well, you know, this black defendant could say he was acting in self-defense, so we're not going to charge him. We're not going to have him have the burden in court approving self-defense. We're just going to believe it at this preliminary stage in the proceeding. And there's been tons of critique, especially in the domestic violence context, where survivors of abuse and physical assault

have a pretty strong self-defense claims that they could make, but are nonetheless indicted, charged, prosecuted, and sentenced, and some of them even sentenced to die in prison for fighting back against their abusers. So given the lost-sightedness in the criminal legal system here,

it's hard to divorce that from the context. Wow. I'll tell you what, man. I never knew how exhilarating it was going to be to listen to two black women talk about the law. This is great. I'll tell you, be honest with you. We don't get enough of this. This is like a black lady law thing that I just kind of get to be a part of.

We got one really accomplished lawyer and then we got somebody else. And they're on here and they're talking about y'all are killing it. Killing it on here right now. Such good information. So I guess I would say this and this is my final question to you. There's a whole community, not just of black people, a community of pissed off Americans that want to know how the police could barge into somebody's home, right? Have a firefight, kill an innocent person,

and then nothing happens to them. Like in no type of way. They're wrong from the jump when they get there. Whoever they're looking for is not there. It doesn't live there. So they're acting on bad information. Their negligence and their wrongheadedness ends up having,

ends up sort of facilitating a firefight in which someone is dead, loses their life. And there's no legal. recourse in terms of the criminal justice process that the cops are responsible for. What do you say to those people? What do you say to the people that don't understand how this can happen? You're a lawyer. You deal with these things all the time.

Do you understand that? What would you say to make them, I guess, I don't even know what I'm trying to ask. What I'm asking is, how could this have happened? Yeah, man, I think a lot of it, the like disconnect between people's expectations and between what the legal system actually does, I think lies, the responsibility for that disconnect lies a lot in lawyers and members of the legal profession. You often hear the phrase, the criminal justice system. Criminal justice system is what courts call it. Criminal justice system is what courts call it. Criminal justice system is what prosecutors. call it criminal justice system is what law enforcement calls it. But as Brian Stevenson says, who's also a criminal defense and civil rights attorney, there's a difference between the law

and justice. The law purports a lot of the time to say that if you follow these rules, you will get a just outcome. But members of the black community and other communities of color know that the legal system does not bring about justice. During the hundreds of years where our ancestors were enslaved, that was legal. So you can't go into the situation and expect for the legal system to always be an instrument of justice. It hasn't been, and the rules as they currently exist today do not bring about justice. There's problems at all levels of the system. There's problems at the grand jury level. There's problems with the prosecutor.

There's problems with the use of force laws, the laws of self-defense, the laws of when the use of deadly force is justified. There's problems at the sentencing stage where defendants who commit comparable crimes, black defendants are sentenced more harshly. And the Supreme Court in a decision called McKeskey v. Kemp said, the racial disparity that exists in the criminal, they called it justice system, but I will say the criminal legal system, the Supreme Court said that's inevitable. There's nothing you can do about it. It's just going to exist. And so if a legal system is saying that racial disparities is inevitable,

then we shouldn't call it a criminal justice system. Some might call it a criminal legal system. Some might call it a criminal punishment system, but most certainly it doesn't bring about justice. if racial disparities are inevitable. And, you know, this goes into the question that I was going to ask you because we can all agree that the grand jury proceedings are very one-sided. And I was going to ask you, how is citizens can we fight for changes in the grand jury proceedings? But you so excellently pointed out that it's at every single level. So if I'm a citizen and I'm frustrated with this process and this proceeding and I've seen it happen over and over again, how can we fight to change it? Yeah, so it's at all levels of the government, Rachel.

It's with, you know, lobbying in your local prosecutor elections, determining who gets to charge folks in your county. It exists at the more basic local level of municipal government when you're talking about all of these different reform commissions and oversight bodies that all of the different local law enforcement agencies throughout the country have. And then it also exists at a legislative level. And I think just to give an example, in California, the state legislature changed the use of war law by enacting a bill called AB392. And basically, folks in the community and civil rights lawyers were trying to get the legislature to change the standard

so that police can only use deadly force when it's necessary and to impose an obligation, a duty to de-escalate so that we don't have all of the unnecessary police killings that we see. And through the legislative process, you're inevitably going to come against the power of the law enforcement union and all of the state legislators who rely on that money to stay in office. And so we ended up with a law enacted in California that I would say was the result of the sausage-making process that essentially watered down the de-escalation requirements that the community members were so excited about. So I think it's important to remember that, yes, you can seek change in

these different venues, but it really takes commitment in the long haul to see it through so that you get outcomes that folks in the community can be proud of. Are there any other options on the criminal side available for Brianna Taylor? Like, is there a federal option? Could there be a federal case? Could there be a federal case? I'm going to be real practical here. Could there be a federal case with this administration of the federal government where the attorney general who brought back this wanton endangerment charge is on the short list for Trump's Supreme Court nominees. I hate to be a pessimist, but I would say, no, it doesn't have.

here that is going to be an option in this context. And then I think just from the more like technical aspect, anytime you want to bring federal charges, there's definitely loop like hoops that you have to jump into jurisdiction that shows that this rises to something within the federal court's jurisdiction. So is there like an interstate commerce element here? Not really seeing it. Hmm. Mm. Mm. Novela. Thank you so much. Can we ask that you come back, like whenever, like, you know, we're going through legal stuff so we can have a lawyer on the show. Can we ask, can we ask that you come back?

Lawyers on the show? Huh? Thanks, girl. Frenchmore. Huh? Huh? No, just joking around. Novel, seriously, thank you so much.

I know that it's a stressful time for us all and you're doing so much and also having to look into this case. It's not the best thing to have Ash. you to look through to be on the show today. But what we're happy is you can help provide some clarity for the thought warriors out there. So we really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. And we would love to have you back.

And I appreciate both of you using your platform to draw attention to these important issues. All right. Thank you so much, sister. Thanks. Bye. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.

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complete and total transparency here on higher learning, we are recording this podcast and we're going to come back later okay, today, and do another part of this podcast because Tori Lanes went on Twitter and said that he is going to talk finally about what went on with him and Meg the Stallion. That's not till 9 Eastern. So tell you how much we, excuse me, that's not until 9 Pacific.

That's midnight Eastern. Say how much we love you guys. We are going to come back and do the other part of the podcast after 9 o'clock. Yeah, yeah. So we can talk about what Tori is talking about. He better show up too. Don't hype us up and then don't show up. Because he's on the East Coast.

That's late. If he don't show up, we're going to go in on it. Yeah, I guess he has to now. We're going to go in on. We already are. I don't know what he could possibly say. Before we, let's talk about it. Before we know, do you have any type of, is there any way in your head?

He can't. It's an open case. He can't say that much. That's why everybody, calm down. your expectations at this point. He ain't going to tell all his business. He can't. It's an open case and he's the prime suspect.

Guarantee you his lawyer is either going to be right next to him or behind the camera, being like, uh-uh, you can't say that. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, look, I have no idea what he's going to try, what he's going to try to say. But given that I think the timing of this is fucking terrible. Right. Exactly.

The timing of Tori Lane's, the day after the Rihanna, Taylor verdict, right? To come out and talk about this is fucking terrible. So he better have something good to say. No, that lets you know he's not in his right mind. The only thing I'm expecting at this point is a retirement announcement. Could be. You just need to walk away. Could be. All right. So real quick, before we get to that, because we're going to drop out in a second here, we are going to take a couple of mailbag questions. Okay. So maybe we'll just do, let's do Jordan. Let's do two mailbag. Questions, Jordan. Are you ready? Are you ready, Jordan?

Jordan, don't come into that. Don't feed it. Jordan, come on, Jordan. Jordan, get excited about it. Jordan, get fucking jammed up about Melbaq. Yeah, yeah. What did you do today? That's that, that's that, that's that I don't have COVID feeling because you said you had a COVID scare. Oh, yeah, God, I had a COVID scare. I did. Look, real quick. Have you all gathered that he's a high. I'm not a hypochondriac. I'm not a hypochondriac.

Because we've had several scares on this podcast. Wrong. Wrong. So Monday, I woke up in the morning. I ran, right? And then after I ran, I came back and I ate.

And then like around, like, oh, we did the podcast. The whole time we did the podcast, I was feeling fine. After we did the podcast, I felt cramping in my stomach. All right? It's cramping. I think maybe, you know, I ate, then I sat down. Maybe I need to get up and move it around. So I get up and I walk.

walk around the neighborhood, you know, pacing around the neighborhood. And I come back and I use the bathroom, I think I'm going to be okay. So I lay down. Then after I lay down, I go outside to get some of my car, and I feel the chills.

I have the chills. I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I have the chills. Then I come back and I lay down, and not only I have the chills, I have a little fever, and I'm like, here it is, here's the bullshit. It started. I got the chills. I got the fever. I got gastrointentional distress. text with COVID.

I'm up to 2 in the morning that night. No cough. I'm up to 2 in the morning that night looking at home self-care COVID shit. How you take care of yourself when you have COVID. And I wake up the next day

and I go early, first person there in the morning. I wake up the next day I feel completely and totally fine, by the way. Totally fine. My little fever had actually broke. I ate something bad, most likely. Wake up the next day. I go to the urgent care, take COVID tests.

They say, hey, we're going to have your results for you the next day. I go, fuck you guys, that's too long. I then go across the street. No. See what I'm saying? Y'all see what I'm saying? To the different place. And I get a rapid COVID test in Culver City 15 minutes.

It came out and it's negative. Here's the thing about taking the rapid test. When they give you the results, if they hand you the paper, you're negative. if they say, come on into the fucking urgent care, you're fucked. And I saw a couple of people that had to come on into the urgent care. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How reliable is the rapid test, though?

Well, the rapid test was negative. And then I took the test the next morning. I got those results back. And that one was negative too. So that bodes well for the rapid test. That bodes well for the rapid test. Okay. Yeah.

All right. So COVID scared. Don't have COVID. Mailbag! Let's go. Quick question from Tracy M. Jordan. Flats or drums? Oh, Flats all day.

Drums, easy work. You guys, you flat. You flats people are basically like flat earthers. But no, but like why? Why drums? There's more flavor to me in the flat. The drum is so much better. The drum is always dry.

The drum is always dry. Tell me I'm lying. It's always dry. That's why I can't handle it. The drum is so much better. The drum is easier to dip. Dip. So that doesn't mean it tastes better.

You're right. Dip. It's easier to dip. By the way, there's more meat. You don't dip your wings? I eat them just as they come. You are so white, bro. I don't do ranch.

I'm sorry. Isn't ranch white? Isn't ranch white? I don't do ranch or blue cheese. Is ranch white? You're going to give white people ranch? Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on real quick. So you're going to let white people have ranch.

I don't do it at all. I know everybody, that's all I hear white people talk about is ranch. Rachel, guess what? Extra ranch. Guess what? Extra ranch. White people can't have ranch, Rachel. They've taken enough from us.

Jordan. Do you fucking take ranch too? Do you eat ranch? Do you eat ranch, Jordan? I love ranch. What the fuck? Of course she eats ranch. What are you talking about?

White people love ranch. Extra ranch. Extra ranch. I don't do it either way because I don't do ranch. I don't do ranch. or blue cheese, so I don't dip it into anything. Guess what, white people? Look at me. Y'all can't have ranch. Y'all got enough.

They can have it. All right? Y'all got like, you know, y'all can't have ranch. Y'all can't have ranch. God damn it. Give me another question. Another question, Jordan. Last one. Last mail back question. From Nicole Green, how are you protecting your peace during such a mentally heavy time? Well, for me, I do therapy. I do virtual therapy. that always helps me.

And other than that, I would say journaling, prayer, exercise. And I'll be honest, none of those things I've been able to do since I moved to L.A. So to answer, I'm probably not in my right mind right now. Okay.

That's an honest question. What? I think we know that. I think we know. We know, you know, you're a little off. It was the ranch comment. The ramp. That's fucking weird.

I don't know, I don't know why. I don't like any. I don't do mustard unless it's on a hot dog. I don't do ketchup. I don't do blue cheese. I don't do ranch. I don't do any mayonnaise. None of that.

I don't do any. I'm not a, I'm not a ketchup person. I'm not, I don't understand the ketchup thing. Are you mayonnaise? Uh, no.

Fuck, no, what? Okay. I know, I don't do mayonnaise either. Do you, do you go to Raising Kane's chicken fingers ever? Have you ever been to there before?

Of course. Do you dip your chicken fingers into the raising cane sauce? No. Yeah. I just don't under, I just don't understand. I don't like, I don't like,

I don't like that kind of stuff. I'm very picky. I'm a very picky eater. Dry-ass Rachel is like just dries. Okay, it's cool. Some things are. Why did dry Rachel get put in there? Maybe my chicken trip is dry.

You said dry-ass Rachel. You're dry. You're dry. Anyway, here's the thing. What do I do? The only thing that I can do right now to protect my peace, actually, I'll be honest with you, therapy is actually difficult for me.

I feel better after therapy, but during therapy, it's very hard for me. I had therapy this morning. I know I do virtual therapy. Virtual's hard. I actually prefer to be there. Yeah, the therapy for me, like I get all sharing that much, I get all uncomfortable and stuff like that.

But no, beyond that, I just, I'd say that, like, you know, running and getting out in nature is a big thing for me to protect my peace. Running, getting out in nature, and kind of getting the endorphins going to my brain. And I would also say talking to people, like, When I don't have an understanding or I get sad and I get confused, I will call my parents and I'll, like, really have a deep conversation or call a close friend where we can just talk it out. Somebody who knows who gets me, who is maybe you might be struggling and dealing with the same issue that I'm dealing with where we can just talk it out. That really helps me too. All right.

So keeping it real, we're going to go now. Okay. We're going to come back later. with the Tory Lanes. It better be worth it. It better be. It better be. We're going to come back and do some more on Tori Lane.

So when we come back, Rachel Hare going to be all over her head. I'm going to be wearing my robe. You're going to take this off? You're going to take the wig off? I'm going to be in my robe. It's going to be completely different vibes visually. But we're going to do what we can. See how in.

I blame you because you brought this to my attention. I do want to say this. in my defense, that it is a story that we have been covering. It is. You're right. It's a story that we have been covering. Now we're back.

I'm in my 90-night clothes. I didn't take in the wig off, no makeup. Racing took the wig off. I'm in my 90-night clothes. Here's the thing. We told you guys that we were going to leave and come back after Tori Lanes, who announced,

I'm tired, man. You are right? You swarring words? It's only 9 o'clock, but I went and worked out and the whole 9, so I'm tired. Tori Lane said that he was going to break his silence at 9 o'clock. 9 o'clock Pacific time. And so then I went just a second ago to Tori Lane's Instagram, where I thought an Instagram live was going to happen.

I thought he was going to give us some insight on what, could have possibly happened between him and Meg. When I get to his Instagram live, it says there's a time to stay silent and a time to speak. I said, all I could say on this, all platforms in five minutes. That was like five minutes ago, longer maybe, and it's got 20,000 comments on the thing.

Apparently, he's dropping either a song or an album. and he used this situation to, apparently, he used this situation to push us to listen to the song. Rachel has refused, says she's not giving him a stream. Rachel was upset. You're not listening to the song. I'm not going to listen to it. I'm not going to play into this.

I'm not going to give this man anything because he knows at this point that his career is over. He has nothing left to give. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to benefit off this. situation off of a black woman off the heels of the grand jury proceedings where they did not indict any of the officers for charges against or for anything related to Brianna Taylor. You are totally making a mockery of what happened with Megan and now with Brianna to make money for yourself on your last two rob because you know this is it. This is it for him.

So I'm not going to add anything to his pockets. I'm not going to stream it. I'm not going to support it. You have nothing to say to us at this point. You played us for likes, for comments, for streaming. So here's the thing. I haven't heard this song. But let's say, for argument's sake, I'm not going to.

But let's say for argument's sake that this song is a heartfelt explanation and apology to Meg the Stallion. That doesn't change one thing that you just said. No. It wouldn't. This is the tackiest, most disrespectful, most inappropriate, silliest, corneous, absolutely dastardly thing that I can remember somebody doing. I cannot believe, you know, a black woman says she was shot.

she was shot. So nothing that happens after that should surprise me. But this is a new, pathetic, dangerous, and embarrassing low. This is embarrassing. He has shown who he is at this point, right? Like, we already knew. We don't need to hear an explanation.

We don't need to hear it in the song or rap, nothing. You have showed us who you are. And if y'all stream that song, shame on you. Shame on you. Because I'm sorry, you're just as bad. What, if he needed to apologize, he would have apologized. If he really has something to say, he would have said it. Shame on you if you streamed the song.

Oh, by the way, I wanted to hear what he was going to say. It'll be in a recap. It'll be in an article. I know. So what I'm saying is that, no, I mean, forget about the song. But I wanted to hear from him in terms of, I wanted to hear just what set of circumstances could have led to what happened, you know? I felt like a lot of people needed that just for,

not that they needed it in terms of whether or not to believe May, because I completely and totally believe her, just for closure to put the situation sort of to bed. I felt like people really kind of needed that or wanted to hear whatever he was going to say, if there was any contrition, if he was going to be going to be going. and get help.

If whatever was going to be said, whatever type of, I felt like I needed to hear it. But now that this is like a big fucking joke, like every time we think that we've gotten somewhere, we have an understanding of how to support, protect,

and be there for our sisters, somebody always makes a fucking mockery of it and just reminds us that we have so much more work to do. This is the weakest, crazy as wacky shit I've heard of about my, I don't fucking see how you could take the guy seriously now in any way. You don't. I think

he knows that too. This is the this is, I haven't seen anything this week in a long as time. If there was ever any doubt in anyone's mind before and I don't know why there would be after hearing Megan tell what happened. This right here shows you that this is the type of person

that he is. And that he was willing to do that kind of stuff. I haven't heard the song once again. Doesn't matter. If the song is a million fucking sorries and I was wrong and I'm, it don't matter what's in the song, this is inappropriate, especially, even if you had had a song, if you were going to drop a song to explain this, right? And this was your master plan to get some streams before you out the game or whatever.

You want to get some money before whatever, you know what I'm saying? as tacky as that is. To do this, to not have the wherewithal to say, hey, exploiting a situation where a black woman was shot in her foot is disrespectful, insensitive, cowardly, and completely inappropriate the day after so much of this country is going through what we're going through with the Breonna Taylor indictment situation.

For you not to pump your brakes on that, Wilding. Stupid. Wiling. Dumb. Wiling. All right. That's all I got.

You got anything else, Rachel? No, I'm mad we came back for this. But it had to be said. I'm glad to you. Because I don't want anybody asking us what our opinion is on it. This is it. This is it. I'm glad that you blame me for it, though.

That made me feel good about it. You know, we stayed up until nine. I watched the Laker game. I drank two smoothies. Check this out. I didn't even do dinner. It was workout night. Wow.

I drank two. I drank two smoothies for dinner from Nordstroms. From Nordstrom. You're so fancy, man. How's Kalika, man? Kaliga got them smoothies. Kalika, I got some noise. Where's some Nordstroms?

It's Nordstrom's at the Grove, I think. Oh, okay, okay. At the Century City Mall and stuff like that, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, at Groves. Oh, do you have an unexpected ally of the week? I do. I'm going to give it to Bloomberg.

Oh, my Bloomberg, okay. For all his efforts, one, I think he just did something with HBCUs, but recently he just donated towards helping felons in Florida be able to vote by creating some type of fun for them. I'm saying that off the top of my head because I'm not looking at the article. But Bloomberg. Bloomberg. So you're going with Bloomberg.

You're giving them unexpected ally of the week for everything he did for stopping frisk in New York. That's great. Stop, stop, stop. We're not there. It's the week. It's ally of the week. week. We've had to take you back, right?

Because we don't take back Mayor Romney's at this point. Oh, you're right. We gave him ally of the week at one point. Yeah, we can retroactively snatch that shit. Snatch it.

But it's of the week. Mine is Denny Hamlin. Denny Hamlin is teaming up with Michael Jordan to start a race car team for Bubba Wallace after Bubba Wallace had to go out and, you know,

change up teams and stuff like that. So Denny Hamlin, race car team. driver for a long time, getting with Michael Jordan, giving Bubba Wallace what he needs to go out there and continue his career in NASCAR. So shout out to Denny Hamlin, unexpected ally of the week.

And I shout out to Torrey Lanes. You fucked up. You fuck boy shit all over. This is crazy. I don't want to hear shit about no Tori Lanes, man. I really don't. I really don't. All right.

It's time for me to go to sleep. It's over. Yeah, man. Yo, I got, I got, How early do you go to bed at night? I wake up early. I woke up early this morning, but at the same time I've been working out so hard to try to, like,

not get fat that I'm just wiped by this point. Just wiped out. You're not fat. You are beautiful. Y'all get the fuck out of here. People were deembing me that, by the way. They dimmed me all the time. Thought warriors, take your thing he caps off,

but do not stop learning. I am Van Lenton. I am Rachel Lindsay. Have a good night, y'all.