Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Remy Ma and Papoose Drama, Plus Talking 100 Men in One Day With Ana Foxxx

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Van and Rachel kick it off by reacting to Remy Ma and Papoose airing out cheating allegations via the internet (5:56) before discussing Jamie Foxx’s Netflix special (20:57) and the conservative backlash to Caitlin Clark’s TIME interview (28:44). Then adult film actress Ana Foxxx joins to give her perspective on OnlyFans model Lily Phillips having sex with 100 guys in 24 hours (37:47), and finally Jaleel White has a controversial take on Black audiences' acceptance of ‘Family Matters’ (1:11:06)  Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Ana Foxxx Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Our learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. What was the response to having Donnie read the topics? I didn't see a response. I honestly forgot.

No response. So I think that's a resounding no from the Thought Warriors. Not at all. I think they accept anything that you do. You don't want to do it. Go for it. The more interesting thing, Donnie, is that you don't want to do it. Why don't you want to do it?

I don't not want to do it. It just is a major shakeup. It's a major shakeup to the flow of the podcast. And I don't know if we've put enough actual thought into it before we put it into actual, you know, like a real life thing. I think the reason we didn't get a response is because you haven't done it yet. So let's let's let you do it. And let's see what the people have to say. All right.

In 2025, we go into the next level, and I think this is one of the things that's going to get us there. Yeah. Tops come in. Me and Rachel, boom, pop, pow, pow. We have Anna Fox joining us on the podcast today. Anna Fox Award winning, adult actress. Wrestler?

Wrestler. Wrestler. I didn't know she wrestled. She's going to be talking to us about Lily Phillips, the only fans creator who had second. with 100 guys in the day, her documentary came out, and the whole internet was talking about the ramifications of sex work and the fact that Lily Phillips, to some,

didn't look very happy with the decisions that she made. I don't think people watched the whole documentary. I think they watched the clips. However, a lot of people have thoughts about sex work and sex workers, so Anna Fox is going to join this day. We had a great conversation with her, Rachel. You and her talked about you guys' favorite porn star. you asked about her top five.

She mentioned one that I'm familiar with, which I think most people are. And she gave full inside. You asked me to name them. It's not like I just one day was like, hey, let's talk about this person. You asked me to name. And I was like, ooh, I know one, which.

That's exactly what you did. You went, ooh, I know one. He's like a household name. To be honest. If you're watching. Even if people don't know who he is, they know the term. Like, the term is used in a sense like Kleenex and, you know what I mean? Like, you would say that with your girls.

Like, he's got a... Yeah. Really? Like, that is, that... You racist, motherfucker. See what I'm saying? His name is synonymous with large penises. It's so funny.

That's so funny because it would be so funny if... if it was like that for women. Like if I looked at a girl and she had a big ass and I was like, God damn, she got that Zulu on her. That's an Igbo. God damn, look at that, you're a butane. If you just looked at a girl and you...

If she was as big of a name as mandingo and she was known for her butt and her butt, she named her butt, that. That's the difference. You're missing me though. What I'm saying is using the term mandingo to describe a black guy with a big dick. It is, I'm not saying, but it's just

it's definitely rooted in some buck shit, right? Well, he shouldn't have named himself that. I blame him. All right, let's get started with the podcast. It's a lot of mess on the podcast today. We're going to take a little bit, a little break from politics to the end of the year and then we're going to come back. By the time we come back, there won't be a country,

but that's okay. That's okay. We got a couple of weeks into January. A couple weeks in January. As Trump has continued to say in interviews and on social, day one. Day, not within 100 days, day one.

It's going down. Every time they ask Trump what day he's going to do, the revelations become more. and more extreme. Like Donald Trump, where are your plans on day one? Well, my plans on day one

is to take, there's a coal miner problem in West Virginia. And I'm thinking of taking the fifth graders and making them work in the coal mines. That'll increase productivity.

That'll get us on the same footing with China. Fifth graders, working coal miners. They put it out there. Trump says, fifth graders, we're control miners,

coal miners. Coal mines. Everybody goes, oh my God, for two seconds. We move on to Rememey Mine Potip. Papu's, which is what we're about to do right now.

Everything he's saying, Trump, they asked Trump, I'm not going to get into it. They asked Trump, they said, how are you going to deport the people without breaking up the families? Trump said, we'll just deport the whole family. And basically waves it on them. They have a choice.

They have a choice. Do they want to separate? I'm not trying to separate families. If they choose to stay, that's on them. but if one is legal and one is not that illegal has to go and they can go in so bad watch the interview

watch the interview he does all right Papoos did not get held down by the woman that he held down oh so you take the sides from the jump from the motherfucking jump okay from the motherfucking jump

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Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. All right, Papoose and Remy Ma. Uh-uh, uh-uh. Donnie. Yeah, I got this. It's cool. I'll take it. All right, I'll take the mess. Remi, Ma and Papoose are going back and forth for everyone to see their business is just on display. Remy Ma allegedly caught Papoose falling asleep while talking to Flint's own Clarissa Shields and discovered that they're seeing each other. She exposed their alleged text messages via screenshots. I'll give a quick summary of some of the screenshots.

Clarissa says you take accountability. You're the one who is married. If you can't sleep on the phone with me, or be with me in person, it shouldn't be a big deal to let me know you made it home safe. Sounds like she cares. Or communicate you fell asleep in the sprinter. Papoose responded back and forth. Cheating rumors have followed Remi Ma for a while

in their relationship, her relationship with Papoose. This is back and forth, back and forth. Y'all got thoughts on this? Definitely. Okay, a couple of. Please go ahead. Because I read through this like five times

trying to give a fuck. Okay. you don't care, that's great. Let the people know you don't care about what we're talking about. That's a way to go. Look, here's the deal. I just want to say this. There's stuff that's bigger than them to me in this whole situation.

A year ago, maybe a couple years ago, it's a guy named Easy to Block Captain. It's a battle rapper. And Remy Ma was fucking with Easy to Block Captains. It's what everybody says. Pictures are her, easy to block Captain, the whole nine. Now this comes after Remy Ma had gone to prison for a while and Pappoos held it down.

Remy Ma and Papoose, they were together. Rami Ma goes to jail. Pappoos held her down the whole time she was in prison. She comes home from prison. She blows back up, Remi Ma fantastic, after. Then all of a sudden, she starts seeing easy to block captain. And that makes Papp, from what I'm gathering here, say, okay, it's over. I want to see other people.

Right? And now it's him and Clarissa Shields. And Remy Ma's going crazy. She's put this all in the thing. I personally think that cheating on somebody that held you down while you were in jail, that didn't go off crazy, that held you down while you were in jail, I think that's as bad as cheating on someone when they're pregnant,

which I think is disgusting. All right. Did Has Remy Ma acknowledged that she was cheating with Easy the Block Captain? There's no doubt about the fact that she was with Easy to block captain.

Wait, wait. There are pictures. I know of them like together, but the pictures don't picture could just be a picture. My point is, has she acknowledged that she did? Like for the purposes of the story

because normally we would say things like alleged. Okay, alleged. But let's just say, sorry, alleged. Papu's posted a screenshot of Remy with easy to block captain under a Christmas tree. And the caption was, while I was at home with my daughter last Christmas,

this is where Remy Ma was with easy to block captain, Christmas. Now that I finally move on, she's angry and making a block. Here's the thing with this story. We don't know. Like, first off,

the reason I say it's hard, the reason I say it's hard for me to give a fuck is because, I don't care. And we shouldn't be in this. It's really hard for, like, we should not be. I agree with that. I hate when people take their business and litigate it in the court of public opinion

to win favor with strangers or try to prove themselves or try to get ahead of allegations or whatever it may be. There's so much we don't know. There's so many assumptions that have to be tied to this. Right. Remi Ma went to jail. Papu stayed with her the whole time. Nobody can speak to what actually happened

while she was in jail. You don't know if he was faithful or not. We don't know. We just assumed because- We know that he held her down. Yes, we know he stayed with her. We know that he, I'm sure, like, did all the things that somebody does

when somebody's in jail the most that you could do. But the truth is, you have no idea. You don't even know if she gave him permission to do stuff while she was in jail. We have no clue. We have no idea. And that's my point of this whole thing. You don't know what happened.

We don't know who cheated first. We don't know what was allowed and what wasn't. We don't know anything. So that's why I say it's hard for me to have an opinion. It's hard for me to even talk about this because there's so much you don't know. All we know is what they're putting out there in social media. You, my friend, have already developed an opinion and picked aside, as you said. even called Remy Ma crazy.

Run the takeback. Remy Ma's going crazy. Crazy. So you have already picked in a pit. Let me tell you something real quick. Let me tell you not to. You don't know the definition of a hold down. I can tell this.

You don't know the definition of a hold down. That's another assumption. The theme of this podcast. You don't know the definition of a hold down because you're describing a hold down as something that is not. hold down is this. Because we always talk about it when there's women and men.

If I go to jail, are you going to hold me down? A hold down is, the whole time you're in jail, take care of your stuff, keep your name alive on the streets. Don't go with somebody else. Right? I'm talking about start

another relationship. I'm talking about divorce you, move on. I'm talking about I'm holding you down. I'm here. I'm waiting for you. I'm waiting for you with the house. I'm waiting for you with your career. I'm waiting for you with the thing. I'm holding you down. I'm visiting you the whole time. I'm not turning my back on you because you pop somebody and then you went to jail for it. That's what a hold down is. And a lot of times when we're talking about women holding men down when they go to the prison, the prison, the big house,

all the stuff where the judge will put you. Like it, we're talking about the fact that, hey, you got to move on with your life, you got to do all this, you shouldn't be expected to hold no man down. And I get it. I get it. Maybe you shouldn't. But if you do a hold down,

a true hold down, man, I feel like that there should be something that comes with that. That's all I'm saying. You don't? No. Remy Ma was in jail for almost seven years.

Seven years. And you're assuming that he did nothing in seven years. Just like I'm assuming that he probably did. I'm assuming he probably did. held her, I'm not talking about, look, if he went and got some pussy or whatever like that, that's one thing. But I'm talking about a hold down.

Okay. Because you never know what the situation is. I'm talking about a hold down. Unless she permitted it is cheating. Unless she permitted it is cheating. But what I'm saying is a hold down is about the maintaining the fabric of the relationship and keeping this person and not turning your back on them because they went to jail. That's the hold down. And you can, I'm not denying that he did that.

I'm not denying that, that he held her down, that he didn't turn her back, but I'm sure that he did his thing for within the seven years. We don't know that. And that's my point of the whole thing, which is why it's so hard to talk. We don't know. What do I do know is that this is ridiculously messy. They have children. It's like divorce already.

He's clearly got a relationship. She's got one too. I will assume that. And it's like divorce and leave each other alone. Like, I feel, it feels wrong to even be talking about this, to be reading about this. Like, I, I just, I could care less. And I'll be honest with you, they're not even like that big of stars for me to even be like, like, Remy Ma is Remy Ma. Remy Ma.

I ain't taken anything away from that. Papalus is not even as big of a star. That's, this is, this shows me that you're, no, no, no, no. I know who he is. I've known who he is for years. I get it. Donnie and Ashley, Donnie and Ashley, tell me what your, what your partner said before,

before when you, when you mentioned this subject matter. Donnie, do you consider, like, it's not like they have like, I get, I get what they mean to the culture, especially being two rappers that got together. I don't think you do. Like, Pat Wilson, Remy Ma. Like, I don't think y'all do. Like sometimes I have to remember that I'm doing the podcast

with a group of people who didn't know what drill music was. Because the reality is that. Who said I didn't know what drill music was? You didn't, you weren't here. But back in the day, we were talking about drill music. And I didn't know it had a title. Donnie and Rachel didn't know what drill music was. But we knew some of the people that were in it.

But go ahead. No, you guys did. So what I'm saying is what Remy Ma and Popoos represent together as a unit as far as it's the hold down. The hold down is what matters. They stayed together throughout a seven year prison stint. And when they came back, it was gravy. That means something to people.

It's specifically some people around the way. I'm not denying that. That was, you know what she got out 10 years ago? Okay. I'm talking about them being as being relevant as as relevant now. That was 10 years ago when she got out. It just doesn't hold the same way. and there have been rumors for years about them cheating.

Like even when this came up, I was like, how do we, when I was starting, like, how have we already talked about this? It's just not holding as much weight. They're just not as big. It doesn't matter because it's a, this doesn't matter because Remy Ma is a woman and Pappoos is a man. If the situation was reversed and Pappoos was,

had gone to jail and Remy Ma had come home. or he had come home and then it was all good. And then he ends up with- Well, now we know why you want to talk about it. It's zini of a bot gender wars. Yeah, now we know why you want to talk about it. And now it all makes sense. It's just hard for me.

To be honest, I'm not, I am in no way as big of a star as Papoose and Remy Ma. And I'd rather talk about the TMC article between me and Willie than I would this. Let's talk. Oh, I didn't know if you're going to want to talk about it. No, no, bring it up. Bring it up. See, you know, another thing

There's nothing to say. There's nothing to say. You don't share. You got to share, Rachers nothing to say. It's not like, it's not like I don't, it's not like I don't,

we don't know each other. I've talked about them all the time, multiple times. So have you on the podcast. Like we don't know each other. So the article, the, the article that you and Willie Jones went to the.

Man did not leak it. I did not leak it. Okay. You and Willie Jones went to the, Willie Jones Country Superstar, went to the jingle ball together. That's my friend. What's the jingle ball?

There was nothing in the article about kissing or holding hands because believe me, if that was the case, they would have put all of that in there. But yeah, we're going to jingle ball. Okay, okay. So I'm glad you addressed it. Because, you know, Rach. Yes, you get on me for this cut of something. Go ahead.

A lot of people want to know, man. A lot of people want to know what's going on in the life of Rach just because you were so open during the time of the bachelor and now you cut them off and they don't know how to react. I was open on the show. I got a lot of criticism for not being open about my relationship

with my ex. While we were together, people would be like, y'all don't post enough, y'all don't talk about stuff because I did want to pull back. And I think moving forward, I will try to give as little as possible. You know, I'll acknowledge things, but I don't want people as involved

to feel like that they have the to be as involved in whatever I decide to do. But right now, I'm having fun. There you go. Donnie, next topic. Oh, I will say this, though. That was good advice to Remmy Ma and Papoose, though. Like, we don't need to know all of this stuff.

Value your privacy. That's not. But once again, here's the thing. If you make your relationship, I get what you guys are saying. But if you make your relationship part of your celebrity kit. Now, if your celebrity kid is, I'm a great singer.

I'm a great dancer. I'm great in an interview. That's one thing. But the minute you put the relationship as part of the celebrity kit, it's part of the kit forever. And I'm not speaking with TMZ Brown. I'm just letting people know. I really do sometimes feel like that's unfair to the fans.

It's like, hey, look at us going to a restaurant. Hey, look at our beautiful family. Hey, look at this. Hey, look at that. It's a very tough private time. let us be human beings, let us step away from it. No. Well, we don't need this.

If the celebrity kit is part of the relationship, it's part of a relationship to the kit gets dismantled. We don't need that. Like, I agree with you to a point. And that could be, hey, we're separating, announcing it, not like allowing the speculation that we're separating. We're moving on, you know, like that,

but we don't need this. I don't need screenshots. I mean, they've been on reality shows. Anyway, that's true. I get it. Yeah. I get it. Last question.

A lot of people are asking the question who in a scrap because Clarissa Shields got them dogs, the greatest one of the fire of all time, definitely up there. Who went in a scrap between Ringbond, Clarissa Shields?

You never compare these two types of people. You don't compare a fighter to a shooter. Yeah. The fighter wins the fight, the shooter wins the shootout. Like back in Baton Rouge, it was guys you knew. you could get a fair fight with him.

And then there was guys that you knew and they'll straight, they'll straight say. I remember the rest of the piece of him. I'm not going to mention his name. We'd be like, yeah, we could fight, but if I can't beat you, I'm going to shoot you. And they was like, nah, I want to fight.

And we know it rim me my mouth, pop, pop, put one in you. So, yeah. No violence, you know. Donnie. All right. Jamie Fox. Did y'all watch the special?

I did. I did. Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. He, uh, special just came out a couple of days ago, what had happened was first time he's spoken on what happened a year ago. Let me play some audio for y'all real quick.

April 11th, I was having a bad headache. And I asked my boy for aspirin. And before I could get the aspirin, I went out. I don't remember 20 days. He went on to talk about how the doctor said that he had a brain bleed that ended up bleeding to a stroke.

This was all why he was in Atlanta in 2020. 23 filming a movie back in action. The special in general was like more of a one-man show than a stand-up special. He really got emotional. But it was filled with jokes and some truth. What did you guys think? I thought it was great. I think I might have been like most people maybe expecting it to be straight up, a stand-up.

I didn't really read about it before. But, you know, Thought Warriors will know, will remember that one time when the news came out about Jamie Fox and that he had a medical emergency and we didn't know the details around it. We talked about how great of an artist, all around artist he is and that Van, you asked that question and we picked that if we could have one male artist to perform for us for the rest of our life and then everybody else was gone, it would be Jamie Fox. And watching this special, because that's what it was, it was special and it really was special, I felt like he's solidified that thought, that comment that we had, that discussion that we had. He solidified

his legacy and he solidified who he is as an artist. I understand that there were, you know, there was some debate back and forth that some people wanted more. But I feel like he gave everybody just what they needed and what he needed to give. I appreciate it that he took control of the narrative. And he found a way to creatively discuss what happened to him. It was funny, it was emotional, it was vulnerable, it was beautiful, it was raw. I appreciated how he gave credit to others, his daughters, his friends, his circle of friends, his sister, to God. And it was really interesting because somebody said that it felt like he, especially towards the end, when he was talking about the things that he's done, it felt like an obituary.

but he was a lot. And I was like, that's exactly what it felt like as he was doing it. I thought it was great, man. You know what I got from the special more than anything? I'm so happy he's okay. Yeah. I mean, that's more than anything. I mean, Jamie has such an array of talent that

anytime he gets up there, it's going to be something special for you, right? He's really, really, when you think about it, when we're talking about all the multi-talented guys, he's really the only one that's an A-plus across the board of the men. There are a lot of guys who can do all the stuff, but Jamie Fox is an A-plus comedian.

He's an A-plus artist. he's an A-plus actor. Like he's really the only guy that gives you A's like across the board. Yeah. And if not A-plus is definitely A's. He's the only guy that's like to where you'll go, oh yeah, he can do stand-up comedy, but it's not as good. He can act, but he's not quite the actor.

He's really the only guy that gives you consistency across the board, like an A-lister and all of those different arenas. So you're never going to, you're never going to be disappointed when he takes the state. but the more I watched this, I was like, man, I'm a happy Jamie didn't die. Yeah. Like, it just, I'm, it being an obituary is an interesting thing because there were times up there where it seemed like he was in his afterlife to where he's gone through something like that. He's been there and now he gets to reflect. It's like that Denzel Washington movie Falling, which is great.

Starts off, let me tell you about the time I almost died and then by the end of it. you realize it's all fucked up and it's the cat and the demon and the whole nine. But anyway. Great movie. Great movie. I love it. And I was just very happy, very happy that Jamie Fox is okay. I was very entertained, but I more felt good

that we didn't lose that brother. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. He said you off the, he said you off the white woman. No, he didn't say that. But see, like a Jamie can joke about it because that scene was

so funny where he's like, as a scene, that moment was so funny where because what I did was, it's like he heard everything people were saying about him. And he addressed it in only the way that he could, whether he was doing an impersonation, whether he was singing about it or just like talking about it

directly. And he acknowledged like he's on the white women. Had them black women which is so, it was so interesting too. Every time they would span the audience, I was like, man, black women are such a little. Like such a loyal audience. They're so supportive.

That was majority who was in that and the crowd. And when he's talked about how he was swearing off white women, because he knows y'all think that that was a part of his downfall, had the black women like praising him like he was preaching, like it was church and then say, but I'm just not going to do it in public. I thought, and Jamie can get away with that. Because Jamie, because the one thing you got to say is Jamie doesn't dog black women.

He doesn't put, That's the thing. He doesn't put white women over black women. I mean, like, yes, that's his preference, but he doesn't do it in a way that puts black women down. It's just his choice. I think sometimes when, and I'm not going to speak for black women, but I think sometimes that's why that one episode of Atlanta is so particularly offensive to me.

The Drake episode where the black woman is feral. and she's snarling and she's attacking a white woman for a relationship and a white woman very clearly explains to her why, whatever, whatever. The reason why that bothers me is because it don't be the relationship itself that really pisses black women off as much

from what I've seen. It's what it signifies a lot of times. And a lot of times, the guys that were talking about they either haven't done enough or haven't been culturally relevant enough not for the relationship to go

oh see what I'm talking about one of those and Jamie's just kind of like for whatever reason is not a thing he keeps his personal life personal that's one yeah that's one um

like you said a couple of days ago like Rob you said Robert Griffith the third RG3 you said his white woman and he puts his white woman in our face. And he does. Stop trying to force her on.

Okay, let me get off. Let's move on to another white woman. The other white woman is Caitlin Clark. She had this interview with time where she spoke about black women and her role in the NBA. She said, I want to say I've earned every single thing. But as a white person, there is privilege. A lot of those players in the league,

that have been really good, have been black players. This league has kind of been built on them. The more we can appreciate that, highlight that, talk about that, and then continue to have brands and companies invest in those players that have made this league incredible. I think it's very important. I have to continue to try to change that. The more we can elevate black women, that's going to be a beautiful thing. Now, one of the biggest detractors of this was Megan Kelly. She was disgusted. She said, look at this. She's on the knee, all but apologizing for being white and getting attention. The self-flagellation. The oh, please, pay attention to the black players who are really the ones who we want to celebrate. Condescending. Fake. Transparent. Sad. But Megan wasn't

alone. A bunch of Randol Magas was pissed too in the comments. Here's some, a sprinkling of some examples. I'll put them on the screen. I'll read them out for y'all. C.C. Have you not learned? 76 million people just voted. No woke. And yes, for Trump. You caved. You. You blew it. She really betrayed her home, her whole fan base. What the F? At least we know she's in it for the money now. Sell out.

That's just examples. Feedback. What y'all think about this? I love it. I love it. I will say I don't give a fuck about what Caitlin Clark said like that because that's just PR bullshit. But I love the fact that she knows now, if she didn't know before, why they love her so much.

Because this is what I, like, Caitlin Clark's saying, hey, we got to do all of that. That's, you know, I don't, once again, the allyship, I'm not about to sit here and give Caitlin Clark a box of cookies or invite her into the proverbial cookout, but y'all niggas love to invite people to because she said that, great. If she really feels that way, then in the long term in her career in the WNBA,

that will show itself. through the opportunities that she creates and the people that she lifts up. So that's on her. But the more important thing is to see why they love her so much because to me, once you are a white warrior,

once you are one of those people, the one thing that they hate more than anything is you in any way acting like you give a fuck about a nigger. We don't play. ain't no boogie. Get. That's what all of those...

That's what all of those comments were saying. Get, get, get, Caitlin, get. Take you and your nigras and you get out. Get out of our establishment. Get. Shaby Fox used the word niggers. And I started laughing. I was like, yes.

We love me. Okay. I don't think... Okay, so two things. Maybe three. Kayla Clark was named athlete of the year for time. You agree with that or no? Because there was also a lot of talk about that.

Like a lot of people were like, she didn't win. How could she get athlete of the year? Guys, for the conversation that we're having right now, for the narrative that always follows her, whether you agree with it or not, whether you're for her or against her, whether you look at her stats, whether you look at the accomplishments,

college, now her first year and the pros. She is so deserving of athlete of the year for the influence that she has. So that's that. Certain. Two, I agree with you because I think it's interesting that maybe because we're looking at it in written form. But Cameron Clark, what she said in this interview is not far off from what she's been saying. She has constantly paid homage to the people that came before her, talked about how giving respect to black WNBA players and how she stood on their, like,

shoulders. Like, this isn't new. So to me, she didn't say anything. She's always held herself despite the criticism that she gets from everybody on both sides. It does seem like that she can never do anything right. She's always held herself, had a level of self-awareness, call it PR or not. She's always been mature about it. She's always seems to rise above it. And at the age of 22, which is impressive, you can call it whatever you want to, whatever you want. To me, this was no different from how she's always presented herself. What I do find interesting reading the statement for Megan Kelly, what all these trolls in the comments, I feel like, and this was something that floated around in our group chat as

well, talking about Ben Shapiro and talking about his response to the CEO murder of United Healthcare and just talking about health care in this country. It's interesting how people are starting to respond and slightly turn on this rage fading. I'm starting to, I know we as a podcast are exhausted by it, but it seems like people are exhausted because they know exactly what's going to happen. Like clockwork, you could have predicted that Megan Kelly would have an issue with it, that she thrives off division and hate, that she, that she, that she, that she, thrives off of this rage baiting because this is how these conservative voices or any extremist

voice gets, clicks, likes, views, engagement. And I think the public is starting to become exhausted by it. Because you know what's going to happen. And to me, this isn't, this instance, I feel like is an opportunity that, or is a situation that highlights it. And I think we're going to continue to see this. Enough. When we can start predicting exactly, how you're going to respond. She said she's giving a tribute to the people who came before her, which were black women.

It's enough. The Ben Shapiro one was really interesting because as Ben goes up there, there was an expectation of solidarity from his audience. There was an expectation that he would give them some red meat in terms

about him talking about the murderer of United Healthcare CEO. it was expected he would give them some red meat and then they would own the lips. And what you saw, I don't know if you guys saw this, Ben Shapiro did a video about why the left is condoning the murder of his CEO and he was expecting an own the lips moment.

And if you looked through his comments, you saw people going, hey man, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. My father was a lifelong Republican, and I say was because he, died because he couldn't get this because he couldn't get that. I'm in this type of medical debt. This is not a partisan issue.

He's like, I can't believe it. Ben is making the lefties and the righties hug in his comments. Now, I don't know how there's still issues that are going to be wedge issues no matter what, but I do think that there is a growing group of people who are like, y'all really just fucking with us. And that's why it's important to have the conversations because people are like, y'all really just fucking with us. Now, that doesn't mean that we're going to agree on all of these things or that I don't

think you guys are fundamentally wrong about some things. But there is a growing group of people that are like, this isn't for us. It's to make you guys richer. Ben Shapiro is up 50 million. Megyn Kelly has 100 million from NBC for getting canceled. These people are getting rich on keeping you angry. Yeah. on keeping you mad and not just on the right, on the left as well.

Yeah. And so I think in the next couple of years, there are going to be people who seek out actual real conversation and dialogue about how to move on and share your community with folk you might not disagree with as long as those folk. As long as those folk respect your humanity. Okay. But yeah, I think you're right. On the other side is interview with adult film star, producer, and wrestler Anna Fox. We're going to talk about sex work. We're going to talk about the only fans creator that slept with 100 men in a day.

Is that empowering or is that disgusting? We're going to talk about it on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies.

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40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Dot sweetgreen.com. Okay, big topic on Twitter. Only fans model Lily Phillips. new documentary on her

shows her crying or at least getting really emotional after she had sex with a hundred men in one day. Now that is the I guess you'd say that's your headline but the meat of the article here is an exploration

into sex work into the adult industry because whenever something like this happens, people look and they say, oh, my God, this is what it does to your soul. This is what sex work is. And this is a reflection of that. We want to have that conversation here on higher learning, but we don't want to have it in an insensitive or uninformed way. So we have someone joining us today to answer some questions, model, producer, erotic film actress and wrestler. All of those things are nice. Anna Fox is joining us on higher learning today to talk with us a little bit about that.

Anna, how are you doing? I'm doing great. So have you seen either the documentary or the clips of Lily Phillips, who is an only fan's creator that have been going viral lately with her reactions to the scene or the content that she shot? So at first I saw the clip and everybody's response was so aggressive that I was like, well, let me watch the documentary so I can understand the clip. So I did watch both. Okay.

What were your thoughts? I feel like everybody's so angry at her. I feel like a lot of people are like, I don't feel bad for her. I don't have any sympathy for her. Fuck her. These are her decisions for mistakes, blah, blah, blah. but I don't think she's asking for sympathy at all. The clip of her crying is literally right after she got done getting fucked by 100 guys.

And I think that was like her raw reaction to her accomplishment. And then she goes on to explain why other people shouldn't do it. And that's what she wanted to do. She had started off doing something similar with I think like 30 something guys. and now she wants to do a thousand. So I don't think she's asking for sympathy. I think like I think she's emotional like any other, I guess, athlete would be. I'm sure like LeBron cries.

Like I will call her like sex work in LeBron right now. She just, she did a hundred in a game. Like that's great score. Let me ask you this. Why do you think people think she's crying? I think people think she's asking for sympathy and people,

I don't think people listen to her or why she's truly crying. I think they made up a reason why she's crying. They're like, oh, she's crying, looking at how sad she is. I don't think she's sad at all.

I think she's just emotional after fucking 100 guys, which would be emotional. I don't eat for her. You didn't hate him. I think, I watched a documentary too, and I think what was the response that people had towards her crying

was because if you watch the 45 minutes, she's talking about how happy she is to do this and how this is going to give her serotonin and how this is a fantasy for her. And this is something she's always wanted to do. And that is a stark contrast to what we see her crying. And it is a little different from like a LeBron James winning a championship,

Because those appear to be tears of joy. Yeah. She is so overcome with emotion that she has to step away from the camera and gather herself before she can speak on camera again and really put words to her emotion. And even then she's struggling with it, which and her words and her emotion don't at all reflect happiness or somebody who's like gotten all this serotonin from this experience. she even describes it at one point as robotic and she doesn't remember majority of it.

And I think that's the response that people are getting. Did you have any, I guess, reaction to that? Because it was so, it didn't seem like it was what she expected it to be and the feeling she had before were not reflected at the end. Yeah, I could sympathize with that a lot because getting into sex, work you think a lot of it is a fantasy because that's what we portray. So, you know, like, you're expecting these, like, overwhelming moments of orgasms and splish-flash and all that shit that, that, like, comes in a Fabio romance novel, but you get here, and it's completely different.

I remember my first experiences with wanting to try escorting. I was, like, I felt a lot like her. Like I was so excited to try it. I always wanted to do it. Like, it seemed like a really cool thing. And then I went on my first tour, which was rapid fire clients. And I was immediately like, oh, actually, this was a little bit more overwhelming, like her not wanting to let her fans down for the five minutes that they had with her. And like she gave some of them three minutes or a little bit more. you know, like, she can be overwhelmed with the experience of it all. Of it not really being the fantasy that she wanted, of it not really being everything that she mapped out and, like, for how stressful it was. Like, she barely got any breaks.

And that was like her first break on camera. Like outside of the shower, that was like her first break. So I'm not surprised at all that her emotions wouldn't like come out and be like, yeah, hope yeah, you know. Yeah. It's just like super exhausting and draining. So I feel like maybe those joyous moments came after, but what we saw was like her raw reaction to like everything. Yeah.

The dialogue here comes from two very distinct places. One place is a sort of cultural and societal push to normalize and humanized sex work over the past five, ten, maybe even 15 years. Yeah. And another side that talks about how dehumanizing sex work is, how a natural sex work is, and how sex workers themselves are doing it

because they are in some way broken or they are in some way not whole. And so when something like this happens, rather than people actually have a conversation about the person or the incident, it seems more like they're having a conversation about that, about how much we should humanize and respect sex work. You've been in the business for a while.

Where do you feel like that conversation is right now? I definitely see more so let's humanize sex workers. Like the majority of the conversation is that. But I feel like when I was watching her documentary, there was another sex worker that he had interviewed. And I agreed with her with saying like the push of like radical things in sex work to be popular or something or famous or whatever it is. Like that's like a concern in sex work. And I think that might shine a negative light.

People thinking and seeing the attention that she got from doing 100 people, which in her case may have been exactly what she wanted. And like it looked nice and fun and happy. But like that's not everybody's case. So I think there needs to be A more positive narrative Pushed forward versus Like you need to fuck 100 guys to be humanized Like I don't think that should be the narrative at all

And I think that's what's happening right now Like I wish it was more like Exploring your sex in like safe sex places versus doing crazy things that could end you up Like hurt or in danger or You know, there's a negative side to sex work, too, like any other career. But I don't think that that part is shown a lot.

Like, I would have liked to see people dive more into her mental health state. I think I would have liked to see the documentary be like maybe a little bit longer. Just we can discuss, like, the other side of it besides the fantasy. Yeah, I would love for you to dive deeper into that because as I was watching, I kept thinking, to something like this, which seemed to be more of what they were referring to it as something. Not a, gosh, there was a word that they kept using to describe what this was going to be. This act of doing it. It wasn't like, I'm sorry, forgive me, everybody.

I just cannot remember the word because I remember being like interesting that that's the word that they're using to describe what you're about to do. these 24 hours, but I kept thinking, in 24 hours, but I kept thinking, does this help or hurt the industry? Does it help or hurt the people in it? And specifically, there's a moment, and I love that you talk about wishing it was longer and talking about the mental health and stuff behind it, because there's a moment when she's sitting down with the guy doing the documentary where she discusses, where he's like asking her questions, like, have you done a criminal background check? How are you, how is this, you know, Did you do an STI, STD test?

And there's one moment where it kind of plays into negative stereotypes that people have about the industry, where she did not know you could get HIV from semen. And if you could speak to some of those moments and more so in the context of does something like this or a Lily Phillips or people like that in the industry, help or hurt it? I think in that context for sure she heard it because like our standard is to know.

Like we get tested like the panel, everything like you should know. This is the adult industry and your body is like should be the last like the most thing on your brain to like know. Like hey, this is my instrument. I need to know how to take care of it and how to interact with other people's bodies and make sure I'm safe. She didn't know like simple things. She just like, oh, I got a 200, 200 count of condoms, but I sucked all the dicks. So what does that do? You know what I mean?

So in that context, it definitely hurt. And it was, like, embarrassing to watch her, like, kind of be like, oh, I don't know. And I was like, oh, God, Jesus. Like, this is where people think, oh, because she's so successful. Look, she made all this money. She has all this thing. All these people are coming, giving her attention. Then this must be the average mind of a sex worker.

They don't know X, Y, and C. And, like, they just bring condoms. And like, that's not the average. That's not in my experience. But there's also levels to sex work too. I feel like content creators versus people who do mainstream porn, like we are, we have no choice but to like adhere to the guidelines and the rules that keep us safe. Whereas if you're just only doing content creation, the rules are yours.

So she didn't set up enough safety, in my opinion for herself. And I think the interview guy was like more concerned for her than she was, which was alarming. He's kind of teaching her stuff. And that's not her first rodeo with it. So, no, it definitely wasn't a good trail. You bring up the difference between content creation and mainstream porn. And it used to all be basically mainstream porn, right? To a degree, if you are an old vet like myself,

Years ago, it was different companies making porn, and there were rules and their guidelines and all that. As the internet has exploded, people's idea of porn and what they like and what they want to see through porn and sex work is different. And it's their mom and pop shops that have been set up everywhere, has the proliferation of porn, the normalizing of it, the, how should I say, the desens attention the desensitivity to it, is that a good thing? Has that been something that's been good for sex work overall?

The fact that you can get as much porn as you want anytime with a touch of a button on your computer, has that been a good thing for sex work? Or does something like that mean that people have to do continuously more outrageous and outlandish things in order to stick out from the patent? well I feel like yes and no like yes um like sex being ready at the for anybody to have at any moment is good for us because we profit from it but do I think it's good overall no because of the way that people respond outward to sex workers just off the bat they're just like fuck you you ate shit like that that response has become so normal that that's why I don't think the accessibility to porn is good because not all of the porn that's able to be to watch is good porn.

Guys think that like you just show up to a girl's house and like anal should be expected, rough sex should be expected, goblin, all this stuff is expected. But people are not aware that like we're on a set where we planned it. We scheduled it out. We had hours and hours and hours before we hit record to get ready for that scene. Like, we didn't just, I didn't just invite the pizza guy over for, for a butt bucket, you know? What? That's not, are you, are you being for real?

Guilty. You know, I think, I think, um, the way people perceive us, um, because of how much porn is out there and because of the type of porn that's out there, um, is, is negative. Uh, I don't think people know how to truly respect sex workers, uh, as a whole. I just any like the majority of comments on like porn websites on on like YouTube on interviews they're like shut up this bitch can't have an opinion and I'm like are you are you serious like we're human beings you know like we're where you're your neighbor you're your sister you we have kids like we have people have careers outside of porn people have been nurses doctors all kinds of things anything that we can't have an opinion because we suck dick don't most people? sucked it. So, yeah. So that's, it's a yes and a no.

Like, yay, I want all of us to have money, but I want us to all be respected as human beings. Um, oh, sorry. No, no, no. I'm rambling. You are, no, no, no, you're fine. You, for those listening, Anna, you're a black woman.

I couldn't help but think as I was watching this, what would the reaction have been if Lily Phyllis? Phillips is black. Do you think the reaction would have been different? You're making a face. I'm curious as to what, and maybe speak to what it is to be a black woman in the industry. Yeah, I can't help but think that.

I saw comments. I saw some comments saying the same thing, like, what if Lily was black? How would the response be? I don't think it would have been, received with so much grace. Like, like, the way that black

women are treated versus white women and porn, like we already have to work harder in life. And a lot of people are like, oh, that's just a victim mentality. You know, as black women in porn, who's been here for over a decade, I'm, if I'm not the most awarded black women in porn, I'm like second in line.

And the fact that I have eight awards and a white woman can get eight awards in one night should say a lot. You know, like I can work for all the studios. I can show up, I have to show up on time, perfectly ready to go. Even though I'm going to get my hair and makeup done, I have to be able to do everything without any lip. But the way that I see white performers treated like princesses off day one without any proving that they can perform or anything, you know, like you have to prove that you

can be here. You have to step up and like be the, best off of day one. There's no, there's no, um, there's no grace really for black women and porn. Um, um, even with the support of our fans, like if, if you work with white men, then, then your fans are going to say that you're racist when, when if a white woman works with black men, oh, yay, now you're, now you're awarded for doing that. Like, it's not the same how we're treated. And like, you can only experience that as a black woman in porn. So I think if Lily was black, it would have, she would have got a lot more hate.

It would have tarnished the industry more. People would have picked out those things that she said and just like ran with it harder versus like I see some sympathy for her and like even the way that the guy is approaching her in the documentary was more of like a caretaker role. And I just don't, I don't even see like in like murder mysteries like the way that they have the dialogue for black victim. versus a white victim is not the same. So I think it would have been completely different

if Lily was black. Another thing that's interesting to me about the industry, when you hear somebody talk about it, there doesn't seem to be a middle. You hear someone say, hey, this is empowering. This is the greatest thing.

I love it. Everyone shut up. Let me make my own decisions. Or you hear women and men leave the industry and say, it ruined my life. It is the one. worst experience I have ever had.

I was taking advantage of. I was prayed upon. I was that you don't ever get people that go, it was something I did for a while. It was all right. What's true about the porn industry? Is it something that gobbles up and uses and abuses, particularly young women?

This is porn, period, whether it be the point that you're making at your home and putting it on OnlyFans, or whether it be mainstream porn, or is it something that people go into making clear-headed decisions as consenting adults that they're being responsible in and you should be irresponsible in watching and consuming. Is it terrible?

Is it amazing? Or is there a middle? I do think that there is a middle for the girls like Mia Klefa and Lana Rhodes that left. I do think that they got like pulled in and chewed up and spit the fuck out.

Their experience was so insane compared to like my experience where I kind of like stepped in wanting to do porn. It wasn't so negative. Like the negativity that I experienced wasn't anything I would say that I would experience not on earth. So I wasn't like, you know, like I wasn't treated the same way that they were. and some of the stories I've heard from them personally were just kind of insane.

But I do think that you can come into porn level-headed and make clear decisions and have boundaries and those be respected and you be successful. There's extremes to most things. Like, you know, you can run into other businesses and, like, end up getting plucked up. But yeah, no, porn is a place that if you're going to step into it, you need to have clear boundaries

and a plan of what you want to do where you want to go and why you're doing it. Because if you don't have those answers, answer for yourself, the industry will answer it for you. And that's like the last thing that you want to happen. So you just need to take control of your life. It's your body. So you have to make those decisions for yourself and don't let the industry do

it for you. You said something real quick. I want to one follow up in first. Okay. You said you came in wanting to do porn. Let me ask you something. A lot of people, when you said that, the first thing that is going to jump in their mind is why. Why? Why? I'm serious. It's a good question.

So why did you, Anna Fox, why did you want to do porn? So for me, I was a little, I was not 18 when I got into porn. I think I was 22, 23. My whole life. That's good.

I thought that was going a different way. No, no. I did two for a second. I was like, shit, man. Okay. Okay. All right.

Yeah, you were 22. Yeah, nice. God bless. Yeah. It was 20 something. And up until then, like, I hadn't really had very good sexual experiences, not because that I was abused or anything, but just because it wasn't good. Like, my partner didn't know how to have sex with me. I didn't know how to have sex with them. I didn't want to have sex with somebody who had a girlfriend. I didn't want to get beat up because somebody wanted to dick me down. Like, I wanted to have sex with girls, didn't know how to do that. So when the idea of would you do porn came up, in my mind, I thought it was a great way and a place to learn how to have sex with professionals. And I never thought that I would be popular from it.

Like I never was seeking stardom. I just wanted to learn, well, how do you have an orgasm? How do you make a guy come? How do you eat pussy? How do you do these things? This is the only place that I can go where no one's going to beat me up to fucking this guy. No one's going to, you know, treat me wrong. Like, I just simply want to know.

I didn't think anybody would know because at the time, all of my friends had porn on their phones anyway. Like, they were all filming themselves having sex. So I didn't think it was so weird for me to go film myself having sex. And everybody I knew with the flip phone had a video of the sucking dick. So I was like, yeah, well, I want to do it. I want to have some fun. I want to pop some pussy. I want to learn.

So for me, porn was an exciting place to go learn how to have sex. So I was just happy to be there. And again, I'm going to keep referring to the documentary because as I was watching it, so many questions popped up. But do you ever or have you ever felt? Because you don't seem this way. I mean, like, you're beautiful, like great personality, very bubbly. But does it ever, do you ever feel lonely or maybe difficulty?

And I don't know if you're in a relationship right now or whatever, but has there been difficulty? dating? Is it difficult making friends? Like, there's a moment in the doctor she's talking about her family. What has that been like for you or just in general being in the industry? I think a lot of people wonder that. Yeah. For myself in the beginning when I got into porn, I kind of alienated myself from people. I didn't want my family to know. I didn't want everybody to know. I wasn't necessarily trying to like broadcast myself. as a sex worker.

But as I became at a box, I learned respect for sex workers, which I didn't think I had before I got into sex work, not really. Like I thought I did, like, oh, I would never do anything rude, but like I don't think I really had a real respect like I do now for sex work. So as I got that, it made me able to have better relationships. Like now I have like a super, relationship with my family.

I don't tolerate people that don't respect people as a whole. So I feel like my relationships, people are better. And I don't date. That's not to say that I don't have a partner, but I don't date because most guys are just like, well, you are in a box and can I fuck you and your friend? That's not how I want to be approached regardless of my career. So I just have like a wall and a standard that people need to penetrate. and achieve to be around me.

And so the people around me are like, I feel like really wholesome. So I have my little din of thieves over here that we all kick it and we're doing good. But I feel like it took me fully respecting myself to earn the respect of others, which I didn't have when I got into porn. So I can sympathize with her like wanting like a partner,

wanting like transparency with her family and stuff like that. but I wonder if she really respects herself for her to get those things, you know? I love that you have that for yourself, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. Last question for me. Okay. How do you want the world to respond, society, to respond to sex work, to porn to the industry?

Because once again, we hear both. about how sex workers, we hear we shouldn't sex work shame, we shouldn't kink shame, we shouldn't do any of those things that put people in boxes. But at the same time, we also hear about how we need to keep our eyes on the creators of the content, their physical health, their mental health, their well-being, how they're being treated, what industry standards are, and all of that. So it seems like the narrative is both, don't ask any questions. These are completely empowered people and make sure that you ask questions because this is a workforce that is in peril and being preyed upon by people. So sometimes it's a

little confusing. You're here and you seem to define yourself for yourself on your own terms. how do you want people that consume sex work who don't consume sex work? How do you want sex workers to be treated and thought about in society? I think people have to keep in mind that sex workers are human beings. I think the industry could help

by putting out more behind the scenes like documentary, similar to what Lily did so they can kind of understand why she's done what she's done because if you just look at the little clip, you're not going to get it. But if you watch the documentary, you can kind of understand where she's coming from a little

bit better. So I think if people look at us as individuals in our whole picture of why we're doing this, where we're coming from, they can sympathize a little bit better and understand that we enjoy putting on a performance. I think it is healthy

to question people's actions and sex work because if no one does, then you're just going to walk around thinking everything's great. And I did that for a long time until some questions came up. And I was like, oh, you know what? That was bad. Maybe I shouldn't put out those images or portray this narrative that I don't really truly believe in.

So it's not until you get questioned that you look at what images you're putting out. I think porn can do a better job with that as well. So I guess just give sex workers some grace and like some patience while we figure out our else and what we're doing because it's a journey that we go through and like our minds change, our hearts change and media changes. So, you know, just be responsible with what you consume and know that you need to treat real life sex different from the porn you consume. You can't walk into real life expecting crazy porn from your partners unless that's what you guys talk about with enthusiastic consent.

But outside of that, you know, respect sex workers, respect your partners, and they are not the same, unless they are. Last thing for me, I think the word

they were using in the doc was a stunt. And the stunt... Yeah, like she's evil-knievel. Yeah, it was really throwing me off. I was like, no, wait a minute. So they were saying it's a stunt. So now you mentioned this,

she has announced that her next stunt, and I'm using air quotes, will be in February to have sex with a thousand men in 24 hours. Jesus. Now, I've done the math, and I think my math is correct. That would be one, each man would get one minute,

1.4 minutes, if that's the case. Unless she doubles up. Yeah, there's no way that she can accomplish, like, Like from how unorganized her 100 dudes were, she's going to need more than 24 hours. I don't think her time management's going to be well.

Do I think she's willing to do it? I think she's going to try her damages to do it. I don't think she's going to have enough time. That was my question. Just wondering. No, I don't think she's going to have enough time. Because in 24 hours, like, you need to break. You can't, like, as much as you're, like,

I've been on set. I'm like, you know what? I'm about to watch this. And I get in there and I'm like, bitch, I'm old. I'm not 21. So I'm fucking need a break. You know, you need a minute. I need a minute.

So she's going to need several breaks, water, do a shower, a fucking smoke. Like, girl, like, no, no, no. She's going to need more than 24 hours. I think she should shoot for 48. And who to top five porn stars of all time? All time. Jesus. Okay, I have to, top five.

Okay, Heather Hunter. Oh. The goat. Yeah. Damn, that's really hard because current, like, of all time, I have to put Heather Hunter. I feel like I have to put Mandingo just because that was the first household name that I knew, that everybody knew. Yeah, Rachel's a big fan. Huh?

Rachel's a big fan of Mandingo. He's so nice, too. He's just a really, like, nice, big, big dude. Skin Diamond was the next big household name that I knew. I'm almost wanting to switch her for Cherokee or Pinky.

Wow. But just in my world, that Skin Diamond, no, no, she wasn't. It was pinky. It was pinky. Yeah, okay. And then, okay, damn, that's really hard. I don't know.

By the way, we'll take all of these answers. Okay You're going This is the era This is You're going Skin Diamond Pinky Cherokee

Chirky obsession I love obsession Like this is the era This is Yeah You're in the right era That's what I'm talking about Yeah

And then I feel like Lexington's still And Isaiah Maxwell I know I probably named Five right there But like Lexington Was like the first dude That I just saw fucking everybody

Like everybody He fucked everybody He was hilarious Oh, Misty Stone. I know everybody is black, but I mean, that's how, that's where I know porn. Yeah, I just root for everybody black, so I guess. There you go.

Throw here and a war in there because we have to do today. Today, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to put you on the spot anymore. That's sufficient. I know that you are a true connoisseur and a fox. model, award-winning performer, actress, producer, and wrestler.

Thank you for joining us today on Ireland. Thank you. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors.

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Ask your doctor about. Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Rachel, Rachel's choice, we got Travis Hunter and his girlfriend, or I feel like I know what Rachel's going to choose. We got Julia White. Last time. Okay, this is tough because both of them got a lot of attention on social media. But I feel like there might be more meat with Jolil White. A little bit more mandingo. Okay.

We're going to be. Donnie. Yeah. All right. Jalil White, star of Family Matters, was promoting his book growing up Urkel. I think this was a month ago. But he was doing a talk in Delaware where he opened up about what it was like to play that iconic role.

And he shared what he believed to be why the show ranks so low for black people when they're discussing their, like, favorite. Black shows. This is what do you have to say? Being a part of the TGIF brand sometimes makes you feel like you don't completely belong in the pantheon of blackness. You know, blackness has been treated as a very monolithic experience in entertainment. You know, if it's not a hood story, it's not a black story. And, you know, sometimes I feel left out of that, you know, so it's like, you know, like if there's any, if there's ever a poll and they say, oh, what are your favorite black shows? And, you know, Martin is in there,

a living single, or any of those kinds of, I already know, we're coming in last. But if there's ever a poll, and it's just like your favorite family shows, and suddenly Martin's not in there, or whatever, all of a sudden, we rank really high. And so it's kind of interesting in how we look at ourselves, to be quite honest, even as black folks. And somehow I became a symbol for black male nerd culture, to be quite honest. I mean, I know this for a fact. Any brother that grew up in the 80s and 90s, well, 90s and 2000s wearing glasses,

he was told at school he looked like me. He was called Erkel. People were mad that he said this. And they should have been. I feel sorry for Jalil White. I almost said Urquil and that would have just been proving some of his point. See what I'm saying? Well, that's why I mean, it's just such, it was such a big character, especially a part of growing up.

I watched TGIF. There were so many things I couldn't watch. I look forward to Friday night. I look forward to watching Family Matters. And so when I see Jalow White, I think Urkel. But of course, I'm giving him respect and column by saying to Lerloi, but I feel sorry for him. It's, you can hear, and this isn't the first time he said something about it. And I would imagine it's sprinkled, if not the theme, throughout a lot of his book. But just he's so, there's such a bitterness and a desperation to be accepted that by black people, that it seems like he's just given up on trying and is now either on the defense or super critical of black people in black culture. And really, there seems to be this bitterness of him being.

typecasted as Urkel, as a nerd, as the guy with glasses. There were efforts to try to, you can tell if you watch Family Matters, try to get away with that when he was Stefan Arkell. And I think he played like somebody from the hood at one point in like a couple of episodes because, you know, he was always. Stefan definitely was him trying to show people that I'm not credible. Right. And so, and it didn't work.

And Urquil was so embedded in our minds that, you couldn't see past it. And, you know, it still kind of came out. Even in literally, there were episodes where he would change back into Earth. You know what I mean? Like the voice would come out while he was Stefan. They don't think. Okay, anyways.

Yeah, I just, just because the bitterness, I think, surrounding that and maybe his career didn't do things that maybe other black actors of that time. They were on other successful shows. Their career took off in a different way. it just seems like he's being critical of black people and black culture, you know, at the expense of black people in black culture. And so it's it's disturbing a little bit to see him talking about it in this way, rather than recognizing the reality of family matters.

Family Matters was corny. And I watched it compared to the rest of the black shows when we list black family shows. Family Matters was, it was corning. It's center. Okay, list the other black family shows. other black memberships. I mean, I'll try to stick to that time, right? Because you can go back and do like good times and stuff like that.

But, you know, you get my wife and my kids. You have fresh prints. You had sister-sister. You had Bernie Mac's show. You had parenthood. You could kind of throw the Cosby show because that creeps into the 90s as well. Sure. And I'm sure I'm forgetting so many others. But there are a lot of family black shows that don't center around being hood or hood characters. Well, really, well, see, here's, well, so here's the thing.

Really none of them do. So the thing, yes, correct. None of them do. So the thing to me wasn't necessarily, you know, bitterness or whatever. He's just wrong. He's wrong about this. But he has been. Like, he's wrong about this.

None of them do. Like, if you think about the black shows that are the pioneering black shows, the ones that are really, like grounded in the ghetto, you can name those kind of on one hand, if I'm being honest with you. More than there was a time in the 70s where you saw a little bit more of that.

But really, when you think about the ones that people really was fucking with, I mean, the Parker's was in the hood a little bit, but Moesha wasn't. Right. Right? Moisa Baldwin Hills. You think about the freshments of Bel Air.

You think about, like you said, sister, sister, you think about the Bernie Mac show. And right now, I'm actually doing a black television history podcast that'll be out pretty soon. And so I'm watching all of these shows. Like Rock was in the neighborhood. Oh, Rock. Yeah. Rock is a great show.

I had so much fun rewatching Rock. Rock was a great show. But they're not as many shows that are in the hood. That's what he made out, what he made it seem. to be. That's a great point. But there is a bitterness because he doesn't seem to feel like he's accepted. I mean, even like what was a couple of months ago or something? Gabriol, you mean, it came out like she was like, we all hated you in college because you were, like there just is a

deep rooted to me when I hear him talk about this, a bitterness of not being accepted by black people, black culture. And he attributes that to family matters. And I, and I think that it's misplaced. Like, yeah, Family matters, I thought, was a good show. It was corny with the entire show. What was corny about it? What was corny about? Him.

Because if you look at all the other shows that we named, those shows are funny all around. Multiple characters were funny. There were black storylines within it, black themes. That wasn't Family Matters. Family Matters centered around Urkel, who wasn't even originally supposed to be the focal point of that show. He was the neighbor.

People fell in love with him, and they made him that. If you remove Urkel, if you remove Urkel from that show, there's nobody else. There's nobody else, really. That show centered around him where the other black shows didn't.

Also, this show was created. Isn't it a spinoff from Perfect Strangers? Like, it was created by white people with white writers. And you can tell with some of the dumb, corny stuff that they used to make. Erkel, too. I'm not saying there aren't white people behind other shows.

Yeah, like there's so many more shows. Now that I'm actually doing this, there's so many more shows that have, that were created by white people and white writers and doing like, but look at a D.L. Hughley show. Look at Bernie Mac. Like these are comedians. They write.

They were Bill Cosby. Sorry, I know that's triggering, but you're saying the Cosby show. Like you have Robert Townsend with parenthood. They were family shows. They were also comedians. writers, producers, heavily involved, I would imagine, in a way that the actors on family matters weren't per se.

But it's sad to me when I see Jalilil White do this because I feel like he just digs himself a deeper hole every single time he talks about this because there seems to be a lot of deep-rooted bitterness surrounding how things played out for him. No, it does. How things played out for him with his career as opposed to other people

that came out around the same time as him. So look, I don't look at it as being quite that deep, all right? I just think he's wrong. And even when he says, when he's talking about, I don't think he knows how, how the show was accepted in black culture.

I don't think he's aware of it. Now, I'll tell you why, even when he says if you were a black guy that wears glasses in the 90s, you were called an urnacle. That is black cultural penetration. It might not be the black cultural penetration that you were necessarily looking for. That's my point. Yes. I know.

But what I'm saying is to say that he didn't have that tells me that he doesn't understand that for a lot of people, like when the nerds took over and then. did, we ended up winning. Like, it, it was like, it was that being that at that time might have not been something that people were responding to. But the nerds won. The Marvel movies got made. The superhero movies took over. The shit, all of the other stuff, it went mainstream.

The app making went mainstream. The nerds became the billionaires and the whole thing flipped. Now, corny is corny. That's why when you say corny, I have to ask you what you mean about corny because being a nerd and being corny are two different things. Phelan matters is corny. Okay. Now, see, I don't necessarily think that it was corny.

Like, I don't necessarily think that it was corny. I think that it adhered to a lot of the sitcom structure. But corny to me is reserved for things that think that they're cool and are not. that's kind of the way I look at corny. I look at corny as as weak and whack and all of that. I wouldn't say that Family Matters was corny because niggas was watching Family Matters. I'm not going to say that. People would say that Nick Cannon was corny.

People would say that Will Smith was corny. And when people would say this about those guys, I'll be like, I don't think y'all really know kind of like, like corny is, it's weak. It's impotent. It's all of those things. But it's tiresome. It becomes simple at some points.

I don't think Family Matters started off that way. But once they honed in and continued, like, into adult years with Urkel and the same antics, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the second. I don't even remember how that show ended. With the second half of it is when it became redundant and corny and cheesy and playing off some of the same things at the beginning that made it popular rather than, it's just like molding into something different. You saw that with other shows. Like imagine if Will Smith was the same the whole way through.

No, like you saw him grow up. You saw him transition. You saw him change. Yeah, he still had the Will Smith from the beginning, like inkling's in it, but you saw a transition. You didn't see that really in family. But forget about Will. Think about Will.

Forget about Will. Will was cool from the beginning. Think about Carlton. Carlton. Okay, go ahead. Oh, he's a main. No, the main. The main.

I know, but what I'm telling you is that Carlton is that most characters that are supporting characters in that way and that are known for something, their character gets progressively, think about Kramer when Seinfeld first starts. Kramer gets more Kramer. George Kastanza gets more George Kastanza. As the show goes on,

there are less stories to tell and people are essentially coming back to these sitcoms for the characters that they love. And the only way not to get tired of them is for you to go a little bit crazier when you come through the road. And for Costanza to go a little bit more. I can stand it.

That happens all the time. And it certainly happened with Urkel. It definitely happened with Carlton's character. Carlton's character at first was kind of a, like a preppy asshole, but kind of almost like a serious character. By the end, like he was literally like

dancing until it's so unusual and the Carlton dance and all of that stuff. That kind of happens in sitcoms. I think that whether it's bitterness, I'm not sure that I agree with that. I do think that he doesn't, he's not culturally reading the room. Sometimes people don't even take the flowers

that you offer them. sometimes you offer people flowers and they don't smell right. And they go, oh, I don't want these. I want the same flowers that Will Smith got. Or I want the same flowers that somebody else got. I want to. But Uncle Ben submitted in the hood. Family Matters, we love Family Matters.

I don't know who didn't like it. But we love Family Matters. I liked it. Yeah. That's because your family was corny. Right? See? We were not corny, but.

Not at all. Let me step into my Jililil White bag and get a little bitter about some of the things that you just said. That's happened before. All right. We got to get out of here. We'll be back in studio on Monday, Rachel. Is that a thing? Yep.

We'll be here on me. I'm in Miami right now. Shout out. Right. But we'll be back. We're going to get this money down here. We're going to make these movies next year. Donnie, I think it went well.

Yeah. I want a grade from the audience on this. I think it went well. I think you did well, Donning. All right. I appreciate you. I can tell you practiced. I agree.

He did really, really good. All right. I think you did. I think it was dope. Maybe talk a little bit less. No, you did fine. You did fine. And he's definitely one to talk.

Thank you to Anna Fox for joining us today on the podcast. That was fantastic. Hey, you can caps off. We do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.