Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Sean K. Campbell Discusses His Investigative Reporting on Black Lives Matter

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by New York Magazine’s Sean K. Campbell to talk in depth about his investigative reporting on the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation (14:20). Then, Van and Rachel discuss Adam Schefter’s insensitive tweet about Dwayne Haskins’s death (1:04:18), Donald Glover’s self-interview (1:16:47), and more. Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Sean K. Campbell Producers: Trudy Joseph and Richie Bozek Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How I learning is on. It is I. Van Latelyn Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel is a professional. Let me tell you what Rachel's doing right now.

Rachel's Zoom died. Her handicam died. And she's eating. She's eating on the podcast. And she let her batteries die on her recorded device. Jesus Christ. But I'm here. And that's what matters.

You are here. They are here. We got a good show today. We got a great show today. We got a, oh, ooh, ooh, ooh, do you remember this the Tom Joyner show? Jingle, do you remember that? Give me a little. Oh, oh, oh.

It's the Tom Joyner Morning Show. See, let me tell you something. A lot of people who are listening to this podcast right now because some of them are white and some of them are young. They don't know Tom Joyner. How does it, how do you feel like it? Don't you think. it weird that as we get older people stop knowing shit that we knew

yeah yeah weird and it makes me feel old it makes me feel old like I feel like we've talked about this on the podcast if not Trudy can jump in if so Trudy can jump in but like we're aging out of certain information like there are certain things people don't talk about anymore

Trudy do you know Tom Joyner do you know you ever heard of I was in high school my mom like got a new car and it had series XM So that's what we listen to every morning. Every morning with my mommy. Sorry I asked.

So we have, filling in for Donnie today, we have Richie fucking Bosek. Ha ha, Richie Bosec. Richie, have you ever heard of Tom Joyner? I have not. Yeah, of course you haven't. Get out of here, Richard. But you mute your mic.

Of course you haven't heard of Tom Joyner. I bet you know all about Rick D's and Howard Stern and Man Cow and those other white radio legends. don't you? Why don't you ever listen to Black Radio, Richie? Richie, what's your favorite... Richard, Richie, what's your favorite movie with the all-black cast? All-black cast? What's your favorite movie, Richie? I think I'm going to follow Rachel's advice here.

Richie. Okay, so Richie, here's the deal. Richard, you have to name three movies with all black casts, and if you don't, you know what, you're just going to Google it. We can't even do shit anymore. I can't even put people on the spot anymore because he's going to Google it. Honestly, Richie literally, could have been like Medea this this and this. Nah, some of them got

white people in them know, but I guess they're all-black cast though. You know what? You know it's not all-black? Boo Medea Halloween. That was not all-black. They got white people in that. You saw that? Yeah, I saw part of it. I gave it a chance. I don't know, man. Sometimes... I gave it a chance. Sometimes I be in a Medea mood.

You don't ever find yourself in a Medea mood? There's only a couple of movies that I can watch that are in... If I'm in a Medea mood. And that is, Oh, shoot. What's the one where she, what's the one where she,

her husband leaves her? Oh, wait, wait. Well, one is why did I get married? The other one is Daddy's girl. That is not a Medea movie. Oh, wait, Tyler's just in it. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Those two movies or some of Tyler's better movies? Those are not Medea movies. Like, that's a not a Medea movie at all. The one with, um, where her husband leaves her, he's the lawyer, he leaves her if he kicks her at the house,

and she gets revenge. Oh, Medea's in it. That's, no, not acrimony, and that's Medea's not in acrimony. Wait, Trudy, you know what I'm talking about. Oh, this movie, you're not talking about a Medea movie. This is a Medea movie. Medea is in this.

Let me look this up, because I can't think of it right now. I'm not going to lie. I don't think I've seen all the Medea movies. No, this is one of the most... Isn't the one with Shamar Moore? Is it the one with Shamar Morris? Dust driver. What is that gone again?

I thought he was a janitor in that one. He was like a... Diary of a mad black woman. Diary of a mad black woman. That's the best one. So Medea's... Oh, Diary of Mad Black Woman. Medea is in that one.

Yeah, I forgot about that one. That was the first one. That was the first one. Okay, so these are... I'm going to give you my top five Tyler Perry movies, okay? Talapari or Medea? Tyler Perry, not Medea. Okay.

My top five, teller Perry movies. Number one, my number one... Excuse me. My number five Tyler Perry movie is Diary of a Mad Black Woman. Love that. It's a good one. Yeah, it's the best one. Shamar Moore.

Okay. My number four Tyler Perry movie is I can do bad off by myself. I don't know why I like that one. My mom loves that one. My number three Tyler Perry movie is why did I get married? Okay. Now why did I get married two? Number three?

What are two and one? some good ones. My number two Tyler Perry movies, Daddy's Little Girls. Yeah, anything with interest. Idris Elba. My number one Tyler Perry movie is the best Tyler Perry movie and a movie that I think is legitimately a good movie. Not saying that Tyler doesn't make good movies because, you know,

Tyler has its own flavor. The family that praise. Oh, so good, right? I love that movie. So good. I love it. I want you guys right now. Higher learning movie of the week.

The family that praise. This is the cast. Alfred Woodard, Sanalah Lathan, Rockman Dunbar, Katie Strickland, who was team white girl, was first team all white girl for a while, Katie Strickland.

I used to like it. She was first team all white girl for a while. Cole Houser, Robin Givens, Taraji P. Hinson, Tyler Perry, and Kathy fucking Bates. The family of praise, I really enjoyed it. Let's see how much it made the box office.

$37 million. But it probably, probably only has budget, Tyler Perry movie, of probably 12 cents. So it's probably all profit. Tyler Perry makes him for a low amount, brings in a high amount. Tyler Perry making money, printing money. So yeah, yeah, those are, we got into a Tyler Perry rabbit hole. What did you do this weekend, Rachel?

What did you do? So I came back from Iowa. I was speaking in Iowa City. Had a great time, first time in the state. Right. And I actually got to enjoy my house, which was really nice. Brian was out of town. He was at a conference.

So I was able to like just like pick up, clean up some stuff. Chill by the pool. I had a really good time. And I got in a little girl time. I caught up with an old girlfriend. We went to brunch. Caught up with another girlfriend. You'll be podcasting with her soon.

Very soon. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who that is. Oh, okay. She has the Stacks podcast. Oh, the Sacks. Podcasts. Oh, yeah. I've got crazy.

Tales for the Transc transformation. Yes, yes. Yeah, I had dinner with Tracy. Anyways, yeah. So, it's a good weekend. What did you do? I was working out here, hip-hop homicides, Chicago. Let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something, man. You act like Chicago. Like you discovered the fountain of youth. The promised land. The way you talk about Chicago. Is this your first time? It's my first time being in Chicago this long. I'll be honest with you.

you. I am not understanding. It's a great city. But the joy that you have... Fucking hater. No, no. The joy that you have, I'm like, okay, enough. Chicago's a great place. Nah, man, fuck all that. Chicago. Amazing. Nah, I don't care what you say. I don't care what you say. Chicago is amazing. I was, I felt like a

whimsical child in Chicago. I'm staring around. There's a river running through the middle of the city. They got a river. Most rivers, let me tell you how bomb Chicago is. Most rivers run through the side of the city. They run the side of the city, like a river is like a jogging partner. You know how somebody runs along with you?

Not Chicago, baby. Chicago, the river runs right through the middle of the city in a cool little way. They got a little cool little arcing things that go over the river. I was driving underneath the L train, like fucking the dark night. You know what I'm saying? Like, I had great foods. You know what I mean? Like the people were very, the people were very nice.

Let me tell you something. Lake Michigan? Lake Michigan, nigger? I'll tell you, sir, I put Lake Michigan up against most of your oceans. I'm looking at the lake. The lake is beautiful. The lake was beautiful yesterday as I ran by it. I felt connected to Lake Michigan.

And by the way, everywhere I look, I don't have my boy with me out here, bozzily-wozily, the wonder pup. Everywhere I look, I see a nice, beautiful little doodle. All kinds of doodles. This is doodle town, Chicago. Chicago is talking to me, and I'm going to talk back. I'm going to get a place out here. I'm not bullshit in you.

I'm going to get a place in Chicago. I fucking love Chicago. Chicago is great. And I'll be honest with you. Chicago is on New York's hills, man. New York is a great, whimsical place as well. But in ways, in ways Chicago fucking over New York. I love New York.

I don't want to piss off any of my New Yorkers. I love New York. But Chicago, bro. Chicago, nigga. Niggin. People call Chicago clean New York. Now, it is clean, by the way. I want you to spend time in Chicago in January and February.

And I want you to have that same energy. That's the, like, you are, you are getting the, the tell end of winter. It's snowed last week. What are you talking about? Tell in, tell in. I want you to be there when that wind, that hawk is moving through and it's negatives. You got a wind chill advisory. What?

What? Oh, speaking of that, Jesse Smolett is mad at me. Well, shit. Because of your subway posts? Do you really, question, do you feel, because I thought you said it's cold. And it made me think that it was really cold when, you know, the subway shit happened with Jesse. And it was cold. I decided to take a picture in front of the subway.

It was hilarious. I said, I'm flirting with disasters. A cold night of Chicago in front of the subway flirting with disaster. I didn't go into subway because I'm not with that refresh shit. But it's like, do you think that post was like out of line? If I'm Jesse, of course he thinks that. Why? I burst out laughing because Jesse has, Jesse has maintained his innocence.

And you're making light of a situation that to him he believes was the real deal. So of course he's offended because y'all know each other. Y'all supposed to be friendly with one another. And you're making fun of a situation that to him really happen. So here's the thing. The thing for me is like, this is why sometimes adult friendships are hard for me. Because this is what I told y'all, this is what me and my friends do. You know, this is what me and my friends do.

Me and my friends, we're getting each other's faces. This is what we do, you know? Like, this is what we do. Like, I didn't make fun. I didn't say anywhere in that situation that I felt like Jesse was full of shit. You applied it. No, I did not. I did not at all.

All I said was that, number one, I feel like. like my post actually actually reinforces what Jesse said and I'll tell you why. Because my post said that going to subway on a cold night in Chicago is

dangerous. And guess what? Jesse got assaulted going to a subway on a cold night in Chicago. If it wasn't dangerous then that would mean that it never happened to Jesse. But it happened to Jesse, therefore it's dangerous.

Logic figure four leglock. I win. Where's my prize? Van, on a freezing night in Chicago, flirting with disaster. Flirting with disaster. If I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, and what you're saying is true,

everybody is laughing. Ian, Bridget, Kenny, Shaheen, Danielle, Joy, Don Cheeto. Jason Weaver, everybody's laughing. If I'm Jesse Smollett, who I do believe is guilty, if I'm Jesse Smollett and I open and I see this post from my alleged friend and I see these comments, you're making fun of me.

Now, if that's not the case, why don't you go ahead and put up another post? Because I felt, because Jesse chastised me a little bit, and I don't like being chastised. I think people that listen to this podcast. The way he calls you or text you or DM you. He DM me. But this is why I'll tell you right now. So I'll tell you right now.

Innocent and guilty. Guilty or innocent. Justice Millett is a talented, great man that I think this culture very much needs. I am not taking that post down, but I unwaveringly support Justice Millett. I unwaveringly believe in Justice Smolett. I unwaveringly think that no matter what this is, the culture should give Justice Smolet a safe

soft bed to land on and the reason why is because what thing you cannot say about Justice Malette is that he has not always worked for black people that he has not, the first time I met Justice Millett, first time I talked to Justice Millett, he asked me to do something on behalf of World Aid Day. He's been giving,

he's been amazing, he's been all of those things. But sometimes we just got a joke, man. I'm sorry, fuck it. That's how I am. Sometimes we just got a joke. Sometimes we just got a joke. Sometimes we just got to make jokes. Fuck it. All right. Rachel, are you ready for this big deal of the day?

This is going to be incendiary. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I feel so good about it. Mm-hmm. Okay. Rachel, don't give them too many mm-hmms now. All right.

I can't talk because I have food about it. That's all like that. That's all like that. Rachel. Um, so you guys on the other side of his break, we're coming back with Sean K. Campbell, who is the New York Magazine, investigative journalists who did the BALM story.

We told you we tried to get them on. We got them. Big deal of a day on the other side of it. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. Visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer,

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All right, guys, we told you guys that we would talk more about what was going on. The fallout from the New York Magazine article on Black Lives Matter and its donation and spending practices. We spoke to Alicia Garza. She talked to us. You guys heard that interview that was last week. Now, we are lucky enough to have Sean Kenner. Sean Campbell, the investigative reporter who is behind not only this particular piece of information about Black Lives Matter, but one that had previously appeared in New York Magazine.

And Sean is here to shed light on what exactly the issues might be, probably respond to some accusations that have been made, not just on this podcast, but by others. and shed some light on what are the questions that people should be asking of Black Lives Matter. Sean, we're so happy to have you join us at the day on Higher Learning. Thank you very much, my man. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Okay, so you've reported on Black Lives Matter and your reporting seems to at least, well, it doesn't seem to. It does. It provokes a certain cloud of, I guess, how should I put this? you seem to think that there's something shady going on over at Black Lives Matter, if I'm being real.

Is that fair to say? Do you think that your reporting is reporting that is asking the question about whether or not everything is above board over there? My reporting reveals facts that the organization could have disclosed years ago, quite honestly. I asked them questions, whatever I report are straight facts. Everything that's in the two articles that have published so far has been backed up by documentation, communications I have had with numerous activists on the ground and people within the organization.

So I'm not making any allegations. I'm putting it out there for people to see. And these are questions that have quite honestly been raised by local chapters and activists going back. years. Sean, you just said so far, are you planning on writing another article? Is there more to come? I'm following the reporting and wherever the facts lead me. That's where, that's how I got here. That's how I had these two articles. I've been following the facts, the reporting and details as they've surfaced. Can I ask a follow-up question. Why did you embark down this investigative journey into BLM? Like, what's

started it? What made you want to say, let me follow this and see where it's going, as you said? Yeah. So before this investigative project, I had previously done a investigation into Doctors Without Borders and racism and discrimination globally with the organization. Then I was contacted by Lindsay Peoples-Wagner with New York Magazine about looking into funds that were raised all through Black Lives Matter as the movement, and that's something that I really want to emphasize with this conversation is that the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is not the movement. It's an issue that that organization that is completely autonomous has come to be a stand-in for the movement, even the naming of it, which in my first article, if you guys read, there were conversations among local activists about

that being a problem that they tried to stop because some of this, some of what's being revealed right now was foretold. So Lindsay wanted me to look into just basic financing because there was a lot of confusion in and around. Even before my stories came out, there was a Black Lives Matter Foundation that was pledged millions of dollars. And the corporations thought that they were given that money

to the Black Lives Matter Global Network. So there was a lot that was going on there. My thing was to look into financing across the board, not even just the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, but other organizations and just see what I see so I could report on it. It was for the issue that was a commemoration of the killing of Trayvon Martin that covered a large range of topics. And as I followed the reporting, as I talked to people,

as I read some of the things that were with the BLM 10, the group of chapters that began speaking out publicly in 2020 and again in 2021, I had serious issues that I feel like I had uncovered and that others had previously reported. So all of this has been me following the reporting and the facts as they present themselves. The issues that you found in your reporting, what are those issues?

Well, as I've talked to people and with the things that I found, the most recent story, which you guys talked about on your last episode, there's a nearly $6 million home that's purchased with BLM funds paid in cash, by the way, and receipts. There's plenty of deeds of sale. I personally did not disclose those details. I do not want to docks anyone, but BLM GNF knows about the existence of the house, when it was purchased, how it was purchased, and that was purchased with BLM funds. Now, when you see that large of a purchase of what is, quite frankly, a mansion, a mansion with an Italian marble fireplace in the backyard,

in addition to other fireplaces and amenities, and there are local activists that are going homeless and hungry, quite literally. Now, we can talk about whether or not Black Lives Matter should or anything like that about buying a home. It's their money, quite honestly. They can do whatever they want with it. But I think the criticism, and as I stated in the article,

as one of the experts that I talked to in the article stated, that's a valid criticism when you're spending that amount of money on a home, not releasing any of the details of it for months, honestly, not until I started asking questions about it, not using that money towards political activism, policymaking or supporting local on the ground work that frankly fueled this movement from the beginning. So that's an issue. We can talk about previous issues there as well.

I'll ask a follow up there. So it helped me make sure that I can connect the dots here. So there was $90 million that was raised by Black Lives Matter. Am I correct on that? That's what the organization has said. I will also say that that impacts, that comes. from an impact statement that was disclosed from the organization. Okay.

So there's at least that amount of money this has not been independently audited or reported on any forms to the IRS. So yes, at least $90 million by the organization's own admission. Okay. So there's currently, they're currently sitting on a war chest of around 60. And from what we know, that was $22, around $21 million that was spent on, I guess, grants and different stuff like that. that, then there was the $6 million house, then there was some overhead.

Okay. Do you know or does anyone know what the $22 million in grants and all of that? Where does that money go? There's been a list of organizations in the impact statement that the organization has said that that money was given to. As I talked with people and alluded to in the first article, there's a question of how much of those funds have been dispersed and whom has received those. funds.

So there are organizations that are listed and it's in the impact statement where the monies are, who those people are, what the organizations behind them are, how much of that money has been received by them. That's something that would be disclosed on a 990 to the IRS. Okay. So let me tell you why I'm asking you that question. The reason why I'm asking you that question is because just so that we're all, just so that we're all on the same page.

So if Black Lives Matter had $90 million. right and if out of that $90 million, the only thing that they had done was built a $6 million home, then I guess I could understand the cross story to their activists who aren't getting what they want. But if they have in fact spent $22 million giving that to other organizations, then what specifically would be the problem with them buying the house would be?

Now, if we talk about the fact that maybe the house wasn't disclosed at a time, but what would be the problem with buying the house if they had already spent some 22 million bucks like donating it and giving grants to other organizations? Yeah. So first thing to that, that's a $20 million that didn't go to local organizations. And like I said before, people who were going homeless and hungry for doing the work on the ground. And I'll say the second thing that's an issue with that is that there is not a physical address on any of the Black Lives Matter forms they have submitted. It's a box, a mailbox.

Now, if you're going to spend the funds, you could purchase a physical office space or rent that out. And the other issue here is that the only people who I've seen use this and what's been used in terms of producing content is Patrice Cullors for her private personal YouTube channel, which is an issue when we talk about the regulations regarding nonprofits. Nonprofits can own assets. They're supposed to own assets. but now if those assets are being used for the benefit of private individuals, that's an issue. And this house had been on the books for 17 months, and it was only recognized by the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation after I asked them about it. after I learned of this property and then tracked down who had purchased it and their connection to Patrice Cullors and the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation.

And then after I asked them, seeing their media strategy of saying that this is going to be an influencer house to deflate the story that I might have published. At that point, I was asking questions. I laid out the facts as I had them on the lines of who purchased the property, when it was purchased, when they had funds distributed from their former official sponsor, and how that fit in to the timeline for when this home was purchased. And then the videos that Patrice Cullors produced on her personal YouTube channel. In addition to other assets, or I shouldn't say assets, other resources that were used by the Global Network Foundation, specifically for Patrice Cullors. namely security that continue up until the point at least I was reporting on I published a story after she had stepped down.

So this now is not a private, private individual not supposedly connected to the organization. We're talking about her brother being ahead of security, monitoring this house, monitoring other homes. Now you can do that. She should be paying them for it. because this is again, this is nonprofit funds being used for a private individual. And the other thing is that any funds that go towards that, any funds and other resources that go to PR or anything else with dealing with any of this, that's funds that aren't going to on the ground activism that again fueled the Black Lives Matter movement. So that's a number of issues right there.

We can just talk about around that. but there's issues here with nonprofit propriety. And then there's also just issues of are they using the funds strategically? Because again, if you're buying this home, anyone can buy a home, nonprofits can buy a home. But should you be buying this home if you don't have an office? If chapters are saying they aren't getting the money they need to keep their people off the street so that they can continue doing the work, that's a source of strategy.

Or, yes, during this election time, those are funds that aren't going to policy right now. We can talk about some stuff from my first story where Damon Turner, father of Patrice Cullors' child, was paid nearly $150,000 for live streaming one election video that had numerous issues with it. And that's more money than the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation paid in Facebook ads for social and racial justice, since 2013. So all of that, if we're talking about how you're going to maximize your profits, but how you're going to maximize your funds, your resources to keep the movement going, to do work, this is not strategic, this is an issue, this is something they have not been

openly disclosing, and people, chapters are upset and they're hurting. Question. What do you say to people, specifically those who used to be executive directors or some co-founders of BLM that say you don't have the evidence to support your claims and believe that you have a vendetta against BLMGNF? First part is false. There is evidence. And other reporters, like I said, I didn't disclose the exact deeds of purchase because I didn't want to dox anyone. but they know, they've seen the communications, and the other side of the vendetta, that's absurd.

My catalogs online, I've been reporting on issues that affect black people and how institutions have let down black people since I started in journalism. I've done reporting on, as I said, doctors, racism and doctors out borders, which is racism globally, how kids were dying in Flint, Michigan, at disproportionate rates, how black people in southern Queens don't have access to the same sorts of medical facilities as the rest of New York and are dying from gunshot wounds because of their distance from trauma centers, and how police aren't solving gun crimes driven in large

part when the victims are black and brown. So anything that alludes to that, anything of what you just said that there's no facts backing this up. One thing, I mentioned them in the story. And I've been reporting on this, not this particular entity, but it that affect black people since I started in this. So both of those statements are categorically false. And my catalogs online. People can look up what I've done, what my reporting has done. 2020, I received an award for covering communities of color from the society professional journalists. So it's not like I've been digging into

or looking around the periphery of Black Lives Matter throughout my career or anything like that. So Vandetta is categorically false. Do you believe that Black Lives Matter is incompetent or corrupt? That is a loaded question. and I'm not, it's not my place to say any of that. It's not my place to speculate on this.

I report on the facts as they are. So you're reporting on the facts as they are, right? But when I asked you why, like why Black Lives Matter, what I asked you what would be the problem with Black Lives Matter spending $6 million on a house after they spent $22 million on grants or such like that, what you said was the $6 million could have been spent on activists. Sean, that's a value judgment.

That's a value judgment. That's you saying, no, that's a strategy judgment. Well, they're in the question. It's not even a strategy. It's just a statement of fact.

Again, one funds, it's up to other people to really decide. I understand that. But when I said that, though, I mean, we're all right here listening.

When I said that, though, this isn't for you to get defensive. The, the, when I, like when I, When I said that, though, the question was, like, because we have to all be grownups here. And when the article is written, you say, you come back and you say, let everybody, like, make their own decision. And that's true.

But you have more information on this than anybody does. And so when I asked you, well, the problem with buying a home was if they had spent money on other things, it was to see what you thought the problem with it was. And your answer was that you felt like the money was being used strategically. You said that. So to me, that at least insinuates that Black Lives Matter is incompetently running their nonprofit. And by incompetently or unstrategically, should I say, running their nonprofit, that there are people, activists on the ground that are being hurt by that. In that vein, my question would be to you. Because what this story will do is that for a lot of people will frame their opinion of Black Lives Matters.

matter. And whatever opinion they have is the one that should be based upon the facts. What I'm asking you is whether or not you think these things are being done in an incompetently unstrategic way, because there was somebody in your article that said they didn't think that things were necessarily unethical, but just unstrategic, or do you think that there's something else amiss? And I think that's a fair question, Sean, because if you're going to write two different pieces about how an organization is doing something wrong, then the reason why they're doing something wrong should be something I should be allowed to ask you. Yeah, and you can ask, and I can say, I said you asked what issues they were, and these were

the issues. It's not my place to judge the organization, to say, you know, how they're doing their things. Honestly, even donors don't have a say. You've judged the organization. Hold on a second, though. One second, though. You've judged the organization the whole time. You said that they were unstrategic.

Like, I asked you, you've judged the organization. Like, Sean, I'm not in Black Lives Matter, G&F. I don't know anybody in Black Lives Matter, GNF. Since you've been on here, you've been talking about your problems with Black Lives Matter, GNF. I'm asking you a direct question about where you think the source of that problems coming from and you're deflecting. No, I'm saying that these aren't my problems.

These are issues within the, organization. It isn't about me. I don't know why you're trying to make it about me, but it's not about me. What I'm saying is, what do you think these issues stem from? Do you think these issues, forget about you, forget about me, do you think these issues that are in the organization, issues as you have described them, do you think these issues come from incompetence or are these issues more telling to there being corruption within

Black Lives Matter? If you don't want to answer the question, you don't have to, but I want to make sure you know what I'm asking. Okay. Yeah, not my place to say. Okay, cool. I don't have subpoena powers. So you tweeted

something and you said, and you kind of alluded to it in this interview. You said, I hope anyone, this is a quote, I hope anyone who gives it a listen, takes to heart that the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is not the modern civil rights movement for Black Lives. as a black man,

do you feel like the articles that you've written are setting BLM, the movement, not the foundation, the movement, do you feel like they're setting the movement back? I feel like my articles are talking about an organization that you ask certain people and the people who have been quoted in my articles who are in the chapters, taking money, deflecting money, away from the on-the-ground activism work.

My articles, again, are putting out information that chapters, leaders within the movement have been asking for for years. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not disputing what you've written. I'm just more so asking from perspective. Like, you talk about your catalog, you talk about what you've written about in regards to black and brown people

and brought things to light, about how there are certain injustices in certain systems. And so what I'm saying is the articles that you've written, yes, you're laying out the facts. Yes, you've done the research and the investigative work. But do you feel like when you put that out there, that it sets the movement back, right? Because you've quoted that the foundation

is not their modern civil rights movement for black lives. Do you feel like these things help or hurt the movement? So again, this isn't my place to say in terms of what the overall effects will be, but I can tell you that if you ask some local activists, you ask some local leaders of BLM chapters that spoke out, they feel like they've had money stolen from them by the organization. Now, to ask, to answer obliquely or kind of that, because again, I can't tell the future.

And this isn't about, you know, whatever I think. think or feel. But those activists feel like they have not been able to do the work that they want to do and can do without the funds that have gone to the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation. So movement-wide, if those local leaders had more funds, they could potentially do more work. But again, it's not my place to say, and I can't tell the future what will happen with all of this. I can say that there have been people who, again, have been raising these issues for years within activist communities, within the organization itself, and they have not had any of these answers. One thing that I can say that I do think is that this wouldn't be as big an issue, a story, back in 2016, 2017, when the organization first started these issues with, financial transparency were addressed.

Because they were asked. They were asked by local leaders. Okay. So I got a couple more questions for you, but I'm going to start with one. I just want to make sure that everybody takes a breath here. Sean, you're not under attack.

All right? Like, I just want to just take a breath. You're not under attack. All right? You're, I'm not here to attack you. Like,

the reality is that the reason why it is such an important thing to discuss is because we should be able to have these conversations about the organizations that we're entrusting, right? We should be able to have this and we should demand full transparency from them. At the same time, there's a line to be walked here to where, I'll tell you why I asked you that question. The reason why I asked you that question was because that's the question that I'm trying to understand. What I'm trying to understand is whether or not these issues that are arising with Black Lives Matter are because they don't know what they're doing, in which case they're giving grace

or because there's an ulterior motive there in which case they are giving pitchforks. Now, the only reason why I asked you that was just try to see somebody that has all the information in what you thought that it was. If you feel like it's not your place to answer, it's not to put you on a spit or to,

or any... And to answer that. And I don't feel attacked. You're asking our questions. And I welcome the questions. The... maybe it's more accurate for me to say, I don't have enough information to say one way or the other to answer whether or not it's one of the two things you mentioned. What I can do as a journalist is reveal facts and information.

And that's for other people who actually honestly have broader powers to do whatever they want with it. or for donors, for other folks to take that information and then make that decision for themselves. I am not here. My role, my job, and looking for the truth is just to find the truth and report the facts. Now, anything else, that is not my role. It's not my place to say, and I don't have complete information.

Okay, so why the decision to, because we had Alicia Garza on the podcast, she hasn't worked with Black Lives Matter since 2017. She, like, obviously was upset that her name was included as part of the article, being that she hasn't been with the organization in five years. She feels like because her name was included in the article, that she has been getting death threats, that she has been being doxed,

that she has been, had to bring her security back on and all of that stuff. Why include Alicia Garza? if she wasn't in Black Lives Matter when the home was bought, if she had absolutely nothing to do with it, the organization since 2017, as she said on our podcast. Yeah. So my reporting is never meant to get anyone docs or to have any issues with anyone's personal safety

or anything like that. And as I said, part of not disclosing the city or some or the deeds of sale that I did have and do have, and do have was to to work with the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation in their desire to address security concerns. It's an unfortunate aspect of internet culture

as it is that people get docs and these things happen. Now, why I mentioned Alicia Garza? Because she was on that property and she had a conversation with Patrice Cullors and Molina Abdullah shortly after this purchase was made. And she is one of the co-founders and the organization uses her

in their materials regularly. So to not talk about that would be me not doing my job. Because she knew that the house existed, how the house was being used or anything like that. She knew at least one thing that she had a conversation with Patrice Colors on that property in 2021.

So that's over a year before my story came out. I know. The conversation wasn't about the house. Yeah, so I'm not here to hold her water, but if I was her, I would be pissed off too because that means that anybody that's been to that home, it doesn't seem very material to the story to include her if she doesn't have anything to do

with impropriety around the sale of the home. I'm telling you what she said. It doesn't seem very, it doesn't seem, she doesn't seem material to anything in the store. She doesn't, it doesn't seem as if like she had anything to do. Was she on any of the signal calls where they discussed the signal text threads where they discussed the strategy of the home? Was she a part of the decision making? If she didn't, she wasn't a part of the decision making to buy the home, if she wasn't a part of the decision making, went to disclose the home, if she wasn't part of the decision making, that anything that had to do with it,

it seemed like her name was included. People would say to add a little spice to the story because essentially she doesn't have anything to do with it. She's been gone for five years. Three years or it would have been four years before the home was even purchased. So whether or not she knew about it, it doesn't seem like it matters. It seems like her name and it seems like her name was put in it because she was a co-founder. Exactly. She's one of the co-founders of the organization.

And again, she knew of the home's existence. I never state anywhere in the article that she was dealing with the finances or anything like that with the property. But she did know of his existence. And I would not have a story that would have published if she could have talked about it or even let other people know about it. I know that people within the organization did not know about this house until after I asked them about it. And then they speak about it to PR cover. But Sean, why would she talk about the home if she's no longer in Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with her?

That's not a question. I think the question is how can you prove that she knew the funds were purchased by BLMGNF if she was no longer a part of the organization at the time. I never said that. I think that's what it implies because her name, her name is dropped in the article as if being a co-founder, she was well aware of. the activities of BLMGNF even after her five, she left five years ago.

That's the implication that's there. So I guess the question is what Ben was trying to say is, how do you know for a fact she knew how that house was purchased? She might have known of its existence, but how it was actually purchased. You can't necessarily say she knew that. And I don't say that. I don't say that at all.

She's a founder of the organization. She's maintaining close ties and connection to the organization. organization. Her name has been used on multiple communications with the organization. It's a part of their founding doctrine or their story that she's one of the co-founders. And then she's here in this property having a conversation about things and the things that were discussed. So I know in no way my article insinuate that she knew how the home was purchased or anything like that. But I will also say when you show up at a home, anybody's new home, you usually ask, hey, this is a nice place. How did you get it?

I don't know if she asked those questions. What are you talking about? I would never ask that. I would never ask that, Sean. And I would shut anybody down that asked you that. Sean, you mean to tell me somebody, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You mean to tell me I just bought a new house. Somebody walks in my house and they go, yo, this is a great place.

Like, how did you buy this place? Like, how did you afford? Well, Sean, what are you talking about, man? No, you're not going to ask that at all. Fine. We can move on. Okay, here's my last question. Here's my last question, Sean.

Where do we go from here? Because I will be honest, I read both of your articles, and I found them alarming. Like, it made me question things that I thought were true, that now I'm, I have concerns. I have concerns. So you write this article and you're obviously someone who supports people of color and being one yourself. So what is the end goal? Because what do you hope to accomplish here?

Because I guess what I'm struggling with is it makes you think a certain way about an organization that you may have had a different perception of, which you've put that out there for people to have their own opinion. But for someone being an advocate for the very people that this. foundation is supposed to benefit, do you feel like maybe there should be some sort of, I'm not telling you how to your work, but like a balance for another article because it leaves it open and room being, we're in the middle of midterms. It's a, it's BLM has been a hot ticket issue. It will be in 2024 as well, but it leaves it open for people to attack something

that maybe you might question the foundation, but the movement it's, you don't question. Do you feel like there's some sort of responsibility there to balance it out? Or to, I don't know. Yeah. My role as a journalist is to report the facts and the facts as they present themselves. I can't and I don't make value judgments in my stories. I report the facts.

I record what people say as they learn about different facts like Tori Russell, who has been struggling to get $1.2 million for a community center in Ferguson that had one of the largest, if not the largest uprising in 2014 related to this. That's a fraction of what the home costs. So not my place to say, my place is record the facts. if other people like Russell, if other people like people within the BLM 10 and the local chapters, if as in yourselves, honestly, if my facts reveal things that have you questioning this organization, which again, and as I've said it, and I've said it repeatedly, is not the movement, is just an organization.

And that's for people to decide. That is not my place to decide. That is not my place to make any sort of a. value judgment. I can say, and I have the experts in the stories, as I've presented my findings, they say it as I've related to them, which is that some of this is concerning in some ways, in other ways it could just be learning on the job. So that's their place to make those assessments.

I don't do that with my writing other than recording the facts. My last question for you is since you wrote this, have you received, because I don't even know right now, Patrice left. So I don't even know who runs Black Lives Matter. I don't even know who runs the Black Lives Matter BLMGNF. I don't know who runs it, right? So I don't know who's in charge over there. It's not Alicia. She's been gone for a while.

Patrice left, I guess, last year, 2020 or at some point. So I don't know who's running it. Since this article has been published, has there been anyone from BLMGNF who's reached out to you and said, look, we understand the concerns. We get what has been put in the article. We want to make sure that everything that's happening here is above boards or we want to show you or demonstrate to you what our strategy is because if you say something, Sean, is unstrategic, which you said on this very call or this very very. interview. That means you must believe that there is a strategic way to do something. That's a value judgment and I'm sorry, seven days a week, 100% of 1,000%. There's no way around it. That's a figure four leg lock of logic, right? So what I'm telling you right now is,

have they made any attempt to show you that what they're doing as either ethical or strategic? No. And to say to your point two of, no, there's not been since I've, and I'm looking at my emails up, I have not had a conversation about this since reaching out about my findings or any of that. They didn't even respond to my first story. And I sent the questions a week before it published. And the unstrategic part, to say it is a value judgment. I'm actually quoting one of the experts in the story who said that. So I'm actually relaying what he said. You talked about what issues may be. They made about you.

Well, they made one then. Like, you know, it's like saying, I didn't call your. That's not, that's like saying I didn't call your mama a hoe. I repeated somebody who called your mama a ho. Like, they didn't, if that's the case, then like, they made one. And that's okay. Because to be honest with you, I think what we're supposed to do, I think this article and articles like it, especially when you're talking about investigative journalism,

they're supposed to help us reshape our values. And so the reality is I don't have a problem with that. I just don't understand that you bristle at it so much. It's like, I'll be honest with you, Sean. I'll be honest with you. You're brilliant journalist. I've read a lot of your stuff. There were times in this interview where you came across as either angry or defensive.

And I'm wondering if you're sick of getting shit on on the internet or if there's, if there's sort of something reflexive in you that is tired of putting it up with this. What has this been like? what has been the, let's have a human moment. Let's have a human moment. What has, what have things been for you since reporting this story? Yeah. So I don't feel like I'm being defensive.

And honestly, what has been the experience has actually been very positive. Because a lot of people have been responding saying that they've been raising these issues over time. And I have more people talking to me than talk to me before all this. And the reason why I, I want to make sure any of my statements are qualified. It's because I want to make sure everything is straight and what I'm saying about these things. And when I say about this expert that I'm paraphrasing when I'm talking about all this stuff, because I can't make those assessments because I have not been in nonprofit governance,

working with nonprofits for decades, like the person who made that assessment said. And in terms of what could be a possible critique, what could be possible issues. And that's the only reason I'm saying because I want things to be clear. I don't want there to be any murkiness or even as has been said on this podcast that they're allegations. There are no allegations in my stories. There are facts that I've reported. So let me ask you this then. The person that you spoke to, do they believe, forget about you, do they believe that Black Lives Matter is because I, well, I think what they said was, if I remember, is it could appear unethical or at the very least strategic.

Am I paraphrasing that sort of correctly? There might be something like that in the article. I can pull it up. I can actually pull up in what they say. What we're trying to do is make people, and I don't think we're beating a dead horse here, but I'm trying to make people understand about, I'm trying to give people to understand it about whether or not

the people that you've talked to think that Black Lives Matter are fumbling around and fucking this up or whether or not they ought to steal people's money and they're harming. Because there's a difference between, being incompetent and harmful. Now, oftentimes, that's just intent, but I think that we don't know enough

to make that assessment yet, and I think that's a fair place to leave it. Sean Campbell, New York Magazine, very spirited. I like your energy, Sean. That's a good word. I'm digging the beige jacket. Sean, we're going to have you back on, okay? If you'll come back on, like,

it would be super awesome to have you. Sean Campbell, New York Magazine. Woo! Now I'm ready to podcast. All right. Peace out. We're going to see you guys on the end of this break. Thank you, show.

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Colhouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, Rachel. What'd you think? What'd you think about Sean, man? I think that's the situation.

I think that, for the most part, there were a little hicc, a few hiccups in the interview. But I said it on the last podcast. There are some things from the January article from this year, which and the April article that don't sit right with me.

And particularly in the January 1 where he's speaking to so many people who are on the ground, who are involved on a local level, either an activism or a part or an extension of Black Lives Matter, GNF, like one of the local chapters affiliated with. I affiliated with it. I just, it is causing some concern for me. It is. And I think that it's very clear. and this is why I was asking those last couple of questions,

it's very clear from the articles and from his demeanor that he has a certain opinion about Black Lives Matter, GNF. So Black Lives Matter, G&F has to do better. They have to do better, if not for the only reason being optics, because there is a responsibility

that comes along with service. and this is not for me to scold or chastide Black Live BLMGNF. The service comes with a tremendous amount of shit. My question still is, is this an organization that's being run poorly or is this an organization that's running circles around the hearts and minds of black Americans? Sean declined to answer that question. He says,

and I accept his reason for that. I have to ask him that, though, because he's got more information on it. And to be honest with you, I do feel like it's a little inconsistent to be like they're using their money unstrategically. Well, that's, whatever, I express that. I guess my thing is, I guess my thing is there are parts of, I guess the biggest problem that I had and Van is going to address his bias. Alicia Garz is a friend of mine.

I know you guys had your own thoughts about Alicia's appearance on the podcast. Alicia Garz is a friend of mine. And I would say no matter what you thought about her appearance on higher learning, that if you are going to write a piece that's that big and drag somebody's name into it that didn't have anything to do with it, I would think that if we're caring about activism and we're caring about things,

our job would be to do the least amount of harm while we're reporting things. And if there was nothing to be gained by having somebody's name in it, if all you were going to do is be a net negative on them, I just don't understand why you would do it. I'll back you up. She's not my friend.

I don't have a relationship with her outside of a couple of times that she's come on this podcast. No, I'm backing it up because I said the same thing. You can't, what you're saying, what Sean was saying did not make sense as why he was including her into it and really couldn't explain why. You're implying, you're assuming that she was informed on certain things because of her close relationship with Patrice and because she used to be a part of this organization. that's unfair. And you have to take responsibility for doing that. And he couldn't do that. So that's not you being biased. That's what was shown just now in this interview. I do think it was

relevant for you to ask the question of whether or not BLMGNF is corrupt. He believes they're corrupt or they're incompetent. But, and I feel like based on my just alone understanding of the articles, it feels a little mixture of both or it feels and then it makes me feel like, because corrupt is a strong word, so I'm very hesitant to say that. But the reason I struggle with just pure incompetence is, can you be knowingly incompetent? And does that make your actions intentional? And the reason I ask that is because if you know that you don't have the expertise

or skill to manage millions and millions of dollars, and you haven't put a person in place to help you handle that, to strategically disperse that money? Strategie. That's the word else. Strategiery. Thank you. Thank you.

If you don't put, if you know you don't have that and you don't put people in place to manage it and you continue along that road, aren't you being intentionally incompetent? And then that is problematic in itself. It's an interesting concept. I don't think so. I understand it. I understand what you're saying. I don't think so.

I think being incompetent, I think there's the insinuation that there is a certain level of like brain vacantness that goes along with that. There's a certain level of, I don't know, that happens with that. I think that if you're intentionally incompetent,

that that means that your intention is to do badly and that would divorce. Well, you're negligent. Negligent. Negligent. Okay, negligent is a little different than a competent, but I understand what you're saying. It makes you reckless. Well, see, negligent means you know and you're choosing not to do your best. But that's what I mean by intentionally incompetent. There you go. So, so then intentionally incompetent is not really a thing.

But negligent is if they're negligent, that's, that I can, that I can understand. You don't know what you don't know to. You realize you don't know. know it. And a lot of times, especially groups like Black Lives Matter that we're starting up in that particular time. And if we're being honest, groups that are run by black people who don't have generations and generations of being empowered enough to deal with that much money. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you don't know

it, right? And that, and this is the way I'm looking at Black Lives Matter. Let me tell you why I say that. Like, I'm one of the black people that when the new black restaurant opens up, like if I go to fucking Maastros, bring my steak out now. Go back there. I don't care if you have to kill the cow in the back of the restaurant. I'm not waiting a second of them. Bring my steak.

Bring the steak to the table. Steak steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak, oh, steak, steak, steak, steak, steak. That was a quick one. Bring my steak out now. But see if I go to the newest black restaurant and it's taking them a little longer on the line. They haven't been around longer. They're trying to figure it out.

they got new people that they're hired from different places. Hey man, just bring me another drink. We're going to let y'all get it together. Because one day I have faith that you will, right? We're going to let y'all get it together. So what I'm trying to figure out actually is my, is the grace that I would be giving Black Lives Matter misplaced? Because if you back there and you not,

and you taking the money we're giving it, you're not really getting real stakes and you serving us the fucking state that you're the ball from Win Dixie and all of that shit like that, then you're fucking over me. is my grace misplaced or should we be asking Black Lives Matter to disband or should we be asking Black Lives Matter to do better? And that's a fundamental difference in the question.

And I feel like that's, I feel like somebody that has the, I mean, he made really selling points about why he shouldn't do that. I'm not dissing that. But what I'm saying is like, I think that's okay to ask. I think those are the questions we should be asking ourselves. Sure. I think those are the questions we should be asking people that have more information about, you know?

Yeah, I think that in regards to, what you just said, it's the best thing for them to do at this point is to be more transparent. Because I think it, what he said at the very end, the fact that he hadn't talked, spoken with anyone, even back in the January

article, it's like, why aren't y'all saying something? This is, this is damning. Because they think he a op? Because they think he's going to tell, bro. They think he won't put a gubernate. But because perception is reality, it is very damning that these accusations have come out multiple times at this point. And there

is still silence from your side. Complete silence. If you're talking about doing better, the first step to doing better is to be a little bit more transparent, to be open and stop hiding behind it. Stop hiding behind creating a fellowship the day after the article is dropped.

I don't know. Look, that shit was on Fox News. What was which part? The Black Lives Matter stuff. Of course it is. It's a huge thing. All right. A very sad news, Dwayne Haskins,

former first round pick of the Washington commanders, record-sating quarterback at Ohio State University, was killed this past weekend. He was trying to cross the highway, I guess, and he was hit by a dump truck. The guy hadn't even made his 25th birthday, and he was killed. It's very upsetting.

My heart goes out to the Haskins family, to the family of Ohio State, to the family of the Washington Commanders and the Pittsburgh Steelers where he's playing now to his entire football family and of course his actual family, just an absolutely unthinkable, unspeakable tragedy of that young man.

After this, we're going to talk about something. After this, Adam Schaefter, good old Shephty, who broke this story, tweeted this. Dwayne Haskins, a standout at Ohio State before struggling to catch on with Washington and Pittsburgh and the NFL died this morning when he got hit by Carr in South Florida.

per his agent Cedric Saunders. Haskins would have turned 25 years old on May 3rd. Adam Schaefter has been flambayed and tortured for that tweet. Okay? Torture for that tweet. All right.

People have gotten on Adam Schaefter's ass about that. And they should have. His ass. Your thoughts, Rachel? They should have because Adam Schaefter is way more experienced than that. and he knew exactly what he was doing when he crafted that tweet. Unless he has somebody tweeting for him, which that's a whole other issue in itself.

You wanted people to know a certain thing about Dwayne Haskins in addition to his death. And that was to talk about his struggles on the field. That's completely unnecessary. If you were breaking news, what you needed to report was the sad news that someone who had so much life ahead of them, unexpectedly and tragically passed away. That was it. You didn't need to debate his football skills in your tweet, which is what you did.

Your job was to report it, not to have an opinion about his football career within that. And he took it a little too far. And I'm very shocked by him with that because, like I said, he has way more experience than that. And he didn't have to put that in that tweet to break news. He has just, apologized. I wanted to apologize to Dwayne's family, his friends, the players in the National Football

League, and offer my condolences to everybody close to Dwayne. And in the way I failed Saturday, I wanted to turn people's attention to make sure that Dwayne is remember properly. After his outstanding career at Ohio State, which led him to become a first-round draft pick, most recently Dwayne appreciated the opportunity that the Steelers had given him and he was responding to it. So it is, I guess he broke that news. Excuse me. I guess he broke that story on Saturday. Saturday and he has apologized today.

It is Monday as we are recording Tuesday as you hear it. Rachel, the apology queen. Do you accept Adam Schefter's apology? It's not, as they say, it's not my apology to accept. It's for the very, it's for the very people he offended. But no, apologizing is obviously the right thing to do. You deduced him, you deduced his entire football career by that statement that you made in your tweet. And I'm glad that he took the time to explain that he was so much more than that.

And I'm also, you know, want to give light to the people who have been posting in, because of what Adam Schefter did not do over the last two days, we're just not getting this information now for his apology, who posted how he was involved with the community, who posted what a great friend and teammate and brother and husband that he was. That's the way that

we need to remember him and not through his, by his struggles on the field. So another guy, Gil Brand, I won't play his comments. Former fucking cowboy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Gil Brent, I won't play his, I won't play his comments

because he's too much of a dickhead. he says he reacted carelessly and insensitively on a radio interview. I want to apologize. There's nothing he can do to apologize for what he said. I think if I was the family. I'm not the family and it's still fucking forever. Let me tell you something about this that the most important thing is. I think that sometimes white America hasn't fucked up.

Sometimes they think that we, we know how you, we know what you think. But like, it's like, like, Dwayne Haskins. meant something to these people because he was a football player, right? So that's all he was. That's the only value that his life had. So in contextualize in his life, you contextualize his life through what kind of football player he was. Who you actually was as a person.

See, that's what we always have to do. What we always have to do is figure out ways to be like, hey, I'm a person too. Hey, I'm a person. Hey, I'm a person too. I'm a person that's more than a football player. person that's more than a criminal. I'm a person that's more than a sex object. I'm a person that's more than a rap. I'm a person that's more than whatever. I'm a person

too. You were talking to soup kitchen back in the day. Soap kitchen kept saying, who are you? And I'm thinking, what, nigga? Like, go get the fucking Sargento. Like, go get the fucking soups. Get them ready. What do you mean? Who am I? I'm a person. a living, breathing extension, an entity of God, which means I have agency, a mind, a heart, and a spirit. And that means something, whether or not you think it does or not. And I can say what I feel like needs to be said.

And I can be a football player, but I can also be a husband and a brother and just a dude. Like, and so we get sometimes that you don't see us as people. That's the hard part. The hard part is whenever something happens, we know why it's happening. The only kind of trust that we're trying to get is we're trying to try to try. trust, we're trying to trust that you think we're human. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to trust that you think we are just as human as you are.

There's no fucking way you can sit down there. Look, I'm glad to you apologize, whatever. There's no fucking way you can sit down there and tweet. This guy got hit by a fucking dump truck at 24. He died. You're talking about he struggled. It's nuts. Yeah.

Bye bye. You said it right, though. You set it right. It's how they see us. and it always comes out. Always comes out. I'm not saying Adam Schefter is a racist. I'm saying.

No, he's not. He's a very nice guy. I've been around him several times. I'm saying that there are these biases that sometimes keep popping up and that injures us trying to have the trust. Okay. Real quick. White Man's Nigger alert.

I'm sorry. White Man's Nick alert. A guy that I love. a guy that I love. Do you? Harry Linux. I like Harry Linux. You don't like Harry Linux? Oh, I don't dislike it, but you're like a guy that I love.

You know, I don't really know much of his work past five heartbeats and Ray. So he's in five heartbeats. He was in the Matrix Reloaded. And, okay, he was Matrix Reloaded. He was also in, he was in Batman versus Superman. Donald Justice. He was in, God, God. Harry Lynch has been a lot of movies. He was in, oh, no he was.

The Blacklist. You ever see the Blacklist? He was on that. That's a TV show, right? TV show, James Sprader, yeah. Clee go watch his dad. So he wrote an op-ed saying that Will Smith must return his Oscar to a restored award's honor. It's at this point, the only person who can redeem the integrity of the Oscars is Smith himself. He needs to come to grips with the gravity of the offense. He committed. And out of respect for the 90s, years of honor conferred upon this award,

I do not in good conscience feel worthy of being his custodian. That's what like, he needs to say something like that is what Harry Lennox was saying. I'm going to tell you something right now. Will Smith can't give his Oscar back. That would be the biggest white man nigger thing that you could ever do. Like, and writing this to me, I'm not saying to Harry Lennox is a white man's nigger. You already said it.

That's not what I said. white man's nigger alert is what I said. Okay, the behavior you're saying is 8%. I'm putting it at 8. What percentage do you have? I got to be honest with you. I'm not normally the one down on this term, but we got up it past 8.

We're definitely double digits. We're definitely double digits here. Nobody asked for this. Nobody asked for you to write this article. I'm so upset by this. And, you know, I've been very, I've been very much so clear. that what Will Smith did is wrong. And he has been punished.

He has also taken accountability from it or for it. And him giving back his Oscar isn't going to erase what was done or change anything. People's still going to be talking. There's not going to be this thing that snaps when he gives it back and they're like, okay, now we can start a bidding war back for the rights to his book. Now we can press play on all his production. No, no, that's not going to have. happened. The damage is done. He won the Oscar. He was already voted to win it that night before

he did it. Let him keep the Oscar. And let's move on from there. He can be accountable for his actions without giving back the Oscar. You want that. Harry, it's Harry, right? Harry Lennox, yeah. Harry, you want that. And you did exactly what they wanted to do. They just needed one black man to write a letter and speak out on this. And you fell for it. You fell for it. Strong 60%. 60? Oh my God. Whoa. That just

whoa! Whoa! 60? Rachel, that is... Let me tell you something. I saw the headline. That is setting... I said, please don't let this nigga be black. That's what I said to myself. Please don't let me be black.

Is that Rachel Lenzheny's first in-word? Wow. No, no, no. In the history of this podcast, it might be... But then... Whoa, 60. Then I was so mad when I saw this headline and I thought, okay, one of them came out there and said it,

but please don't let him be black. And then I saw who it was. True. I need you to, at this point right now, I need you to open up a spreadsheet and we're going to keep tabs of people's white man's niggas percentages. Right now, the most offending person

on the white man's nigger list ever by far is harry linux at a whopping 60% from rachel lindsay we just haven't given them percentages we haven't given the percentage but right now he is number one 60% i can't believe you said eight i can't believe you said eight because i take the white man's nigger uh like i take it as a very serious thing van what he did it was like they they just needed one and you

the one who fell for it. Oh my God. You were the one who did it. Did you, uh, did you? I never look at the same for doing this shit. You're funny. You're so unnecessary. It's so unnecessary. It's so unnecessary. Truly. You're mad because he voted a certain way and they ended up just giving him that suspension. That's what that's what it's very, it's very Clarence Thomas. This is something Clarence with you. Whoa. This is a dissent. This is a dissenting opinion. He is mad that he is. He is mad that what he wanted didn't happen and he's dissenting and he wants everybody to know it.

Interesting. Donald Glover. Did you see his interview? He interviewed himself. What? Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. What are you going to say, Rachel?

Nothing. Donald Glover. And the interview was really amazing. Donald Glover is just one of the most intriguing minds ever. He's great. At one point in the interview while he was interviewing himself. if you ask himself a question about the black ladies.

He said, are you afraid of black women? He then responded by somewhat pleasing black women for playing a big part of his narrative then tells himself, I feel like you're using black women to question my blackness. Yeah. A lot of people have problems with this. Trudy, pop on.

I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't really, this didn't really move me like it moved everybody else. Trudy, what do you, what do you think about Donald Glover saying that? It's just, I just feel like it's weird, but I think he's like weird anyways. So I don't know that I, I just feel like it was weird. I just feel like it was a really weird thing to say and it made it even weirder that like he asked it to himself. Like it was weird.

Rachel? I mean, I felt like he was trying to address certain stereotypes that have been placed on him or certain preconceived notions that people have about him in regards to the way he feels about black women. Now, I don't know his history in comments or dating. I really don't of why people feel like he feels a certain way to black women. So I just want to preface all this with that. I honestly have no idea.

But obviously, this has been a topic of conversation or people have in the black community have felt a certain way is what I'm assuming. And so he felt the need to ask himself that question. And then he answered it by basically kind of refuting that notion is what I took it as. And I'm looking at the, and then he tells himself, or he asks himself, I feel like you're using black women to question my blackness. What was his answer in response to that? Like, I feel like he's a I just felt like the whole thing was him addressing, and he didn't really get into detail. Certain stereotypes people have about him.

That's how I took it. I think people constantly question his blackness, whether it be through his choice of women or how he perceives women, or maybe, and then he goes into talking about how he'll raise his kids. So I felt like this whole dialogue was a way for him to address how people rate or view or want to know his understanding.

in connection with the black community. That's how I took it. Again, I could be totally wrong because I don't know the history or comments that he's made before. The other thing that I will say is Atlanta, especially this season, is such a strong commentary on white people

that like even when he taught, like he'll like throw in little things like specifically about white women. Like the first episode really of this season was a very strong commentary on white women. And it's interesting because he's married to a white woman. So I don't know that I or he either is married or has children by or both. I don't know. But I don't think that he like dislikes black women. I think it's a thing he's probably always

struggled with perception wise. So here is the get real part. It's possible. And I don't want to say this as a certainty because even though he is younger than me, this is one of my creative heroes. I think he is absolutely sublimely brilliant. And I've always thought this of him. He's just one of those guys that sees the world in a particular way. And in seeing the world that particular way has been able to change and elevate art in a way

that a lot of people can't. He one time compared himself to Kanye. And when he compared himself to Kanye, everybody would, oh, you know, Kanye. I think in terms of artistic gifts, he's past him. I think I do I think Donald Glover is an absolute

absolute unmatched unrivaled I think he's fantastic now if you have been following Donald Glover long enough you might think that it's possible that Donald Glover has a black woman problem I will lay this case out

very concisely okay uh oh all right so what Donald Glover used to do stand up there was a joke that he would tell the joke that he would tell two jokes. One was that, and he do these stand-up comedy, he'd do these stand-up comedy.

It was like white college comedy. This was like 2010, 2009, 21st. So one time he was having sex with a girl, and she was white, and she called him a nigger, and he came as hard as he's ever come before in his life. He said that. It's a joke.

Okay, goes back in the day. So listen, it's nothing wrong with that's a joke, right? There's another joke that he said he fucked white girls, but he made sure that he fucked the niggers of every different race. So he fucked Thai girls because they're the niggers of Asia. He fucked Armenian girls because they're the niggers of Europe.

Just the niggers of everyone. Funny joke, you get what he's getting at, whatever, whatever. Different time where you could say more outlandishly wild stuff like that. Those things are whatever. You move forward and you move to Atlanta. And Atlanta is essentially,

if you look at the show and you study the show, it's really made up of what I believe to be the writers of the show, namely Donald Glover, a lot of them, their thoughts and their commentaries on society, and there's always one scene that I point to. It's a couple of scenes, actually.

One, one thing about the show before I get into the individual scenes is that Donald Glover's, I did, Donald Glover's Black Woman on Atlanta, is Vand. is Van, played by Zazi Beats, beautiful actress, amazing actress, biracial actors, very light skin. But as far as the way darker skin black women are portrayed on the show,

it's not always in the most positive light. And I'm not saying this is done purposely. I'm just saying it's interesting. The episode, the last episode that they had was a fantastic episode, but the black woman that was in the episode that was trying to get her home back, It wasn't until later that they humanized her by showing her. At first, she was loud, boisterous, stereotypical. It played well for the show, and I think that there was some narrative intent in making

her that way to play off of Justin Barthus' character, but still, that's where we were. I will say that earlier on in the season, there was a black social worker that was actually the hero of an episode, so this is not all the time. But there was another show that I point to all the time where there was a black woman in the show, we've talked about on this podcast before, that was talking to an interracial couple. The white girl was cool-headed, pragmatic, and completely on top of her shit emotionally in control. She talked to this black woman about why she shouldn't be mad about the fact that she's fucking with

this black guy. Black woman came across as feral. The black woman came across as aggressive. The black woman came across as completely illogical over what was going on because she had been too emotionally wounded. This is what I wonder sometimes. And this is not any of my business, but he talked about it so I will to. what I wonder sometimes, there's nothing, there's no question in Donald Glover's blackness.

Not to me. Like, there's no question in this blackness. Like, to me, Atlanta, as a show, could not work specifically if it didn't have a deep,

dripping DNA of someone with uniquely, unique experiences that are culturally relevant and real. But I do wonder this. And this is a question that we all,

that always gets asked by people who have certain preferences. If Donald Glover enjoys dating white women, which whatever, if that's the truth, which might have been reflected in his past comedy, it seems to be the case now. I wonder if the responses that he's gotten over time to that from black ladies either on the internet or in his orbit, right, have produced some sort of scar tissue that he has trouble seeing through now. And I think when I read that, the fact that he didn't address, he's in an interview with himself and he's still deflecting. I think, and some of the portrayals that I've seen on Atlanta, not all the time, but some of the portrayals that I've seen on Atlanta,

which seem to sometimes be one-dimensional, that one scene with the black lady, they were chastising her. like it's they were it wasn't just that they they used the narrative to chastise her no understanding of the pain of black women no understanding of the scarcity of mates that black women face no understanding of why some of the pain inflicted by black women or by black on black women from black men would mean that we need to and this is kind of what i was talking about a little bit earlier before with with sean not that he's evil but like

Why would you subject a black woman to something that she didn't have to be subjected to? Like there should be something in you that says, hey, I'm not going to put this on that sister's plate because it doesn't need to be on there. She doesn't really need to be on there. And we should be thinking like that. And sometimes when you don't think like that, I wonder why. So it's not anything nefarious. And we all have our blind spots, right? I have my blind spots.

I think this podcast is, I thought I was, what, I thought I was 7% misogynist. I might be 17. You know what I mean? You know? So, but I just wonder, I'm sorry. Thank you for the ISO, because I know I'm talking a lot. I just wonder. Yeah, no, no.

If there's an issue there that might have come from the same emotional place that some of our issues come from. And if maybe that's something that he might be trying to reconcile with his life. And that's what I thought when I read it. It's interesting. I don't know nearly as much about Donald Glover as, as you do. But, you know, from what I do know, he does seem to be a genius in the way that he puts art out there. My question is then, knowing him the way that you do and you've analyzed his work, then what's your take on? He interviewed himself. He did not have to put that in the interview. There surely is some sort of purpose behind putting those questions in there. And and then answering them back.

What do you think he was trying to accomplish? Because this wasn't done in a frivolous manner. He knew what he was doing. So why do you think he did it? I think that shows you how culturally, how culturally intelligent he is because if he, like if I was,

if I was interviewing Donald Glover, I would definitely ask that. And so I think he knows that that's something that an interviewer would have asked, so he asked himself. I really think it's that simple. You know what I mean? Oh, ooh, ooh,

All right. Real quick update. Courtney Taylor, who can we say she killed the guy? I mean, we know she killed him, right? Can we say she killed him? She did kill him. You can't say murdered, I guess.

Right. Murdered implies something else, but she killed him. She's been out at the bar. Yeah, she's been out at the bar. She was at Grand Beach Hotel Friday night. She was out at the bar hanging out. Yeah, she was doing her thing. the woman filming her said, yeah, you should go.

Just killed your boyfriend. Yeah, you did. You should go. She got up and she left. The guy's brother. I forget the gentleman's name who was killed. What's his name again, Trudy? A Christian.

Christian. Christian's brother jumped on and jumped on Instagram and asked for people's support, for the community's support. Right. And bringing Courtney Taylor to justice. It did. They're not plugging with it. him.

They, like he said that we can only do this as a community. And we are a community. It's going to take the entire way to the community that they do not agree with his brother's past posts. And it's going to take the whole community to get this done. And I read the comments on the Shade Room and black ladies said, nah. I know you already made your point on this. It seems like they're not fucking with this one.

What do you think? That doesn't surprise. me. But I just hate, I was having this conversation with another black female about this situation. And I'm like, was explaining how I talked about it on the last podcast. The whole, it's not our fight. Fine. You don't want to speak out and use your platform for it. Fine. That's okay. But just the total disregard for this black man's life because he, because of his preference of because of tweets. Now, you should be talking about this because you know how I feel about tweets, right? I'm always, Like, what age were you?

Because there's a certain age. Now, he was old enough to know better and do better. But I went back and looked at some of his tweets. And I saw a tweet where he was praising Nigerian women. So I, and it was more recent than the ones that were put out there. But none of that, to me, matters when we're talking about somebody's life here. And the same way that you don't talk about, you don't define somebody by their worst mistake or the worst thing they necessarily did in death.

I personally don't think that you do. So if you feel a certain way about Christian, then don't talk about it. All these people just disregarding his life, I just think shows the state of the world we live in. I just think it just goes a little too far. Just be silent. Just don't say anything.

Just be silent. Hold on. Who is it? Okay, you can leave it right there. I'll get in a second. Thank you. Did they say microwave? Yeah, they brought me a microwave.

Like they got me some oatmeal so I could eat it in the morning. They brought me some oatmeal so I could eat it. But I didn't have no microwave. I didn't know you had to order a microwave. Shout out to the hotels out here in Chicago. I got a microwave coming. All right. I know that's very serious question of the week.

I've been off my game with a very serious question. I've got to give it back. I'm right for like five in a row. I've been so busy out here doing hip, hopper, hamicides. Hippina happy. Hip-happity. How's it going? How's it going?

Good. Good. I like, it's just, it's good being talent on something because everybody. cares about how you're feeling, you know? That's why you got a microwave delivered. So, yeah, yeah, they catering in you. It's like, van. You got an entourage?

Yeah, it's like, yeah, a little bit. It's like I got my boy Justin. Little makeup. Yeah, well, no makeup. I don't do makeup. I don't do makeup. I don't like them. When you're shiny, when the head gets shiny,

you got have a little powder. I don't, I don't do that, you know why? Because it makes, it makes me feel, it makes me look like a mannequin a little bit, you know? It makes you look dusty. It makes me look like a manicure. Well, what I'm saying is this is like, I'm so used to not wearing makeup for my TMZ days. I don't want to wear makeup on TV.

I don't. And God bless me with this. Ooh, luscious skin. All right. I got to, we got to go. It's time. We gave you guys you guys a lot today. You know, shout out to Sean K. Campbell.

I guess Sean K. Camble for coming out on the podcast. We hope you come back. We hope you come back, Sean. It's your mad ass. Like, we like, we like, we, we hope you come back, bro. You know, keep telling the truth. because I do believe that he's doing a good investigative work.

All right. Take the thing kept off, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen, Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.