Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Senator Brian Schatz On Trying to Comprehend MAGA. Plus, Men’s Views on the WNBA With Angel McCoughtry! | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

Rachel and Van start the show by discussing Pharrell Williams's intention behind his comments from the last episode. They are then joined by U.S. Senator Brian Schatz from Hawaii to break down his X post about converting MAGA supporters. Last, they are joined by WNBA legend, musician, and honorary member of Zeta Phi Beta, Angel McCoughtry, to talk about how men treat and talk about the WNBA. 00:00 - Welcome!  00:54 - Pharrell Clarifies 28:20 - Trump Berates Bloomberg News Reporter 37:54 - Sen. Brian Schatz Joins Us! 53:07 - Coast Guard Changes Classifications On Hate Symbols 1:11:12 - Angel McCoughtry Joins Us! 1:33:04 - Thanks for Watching! Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Sen. Brian Schatz and Angel McCoughtry Producers: Ashleigh Smith and Donnie Beacham Video Supervision: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, thought lawyers. What is up? Hary Learning is on. Is Ivan Laker Lankton? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. We have a couple of guests today. A couple. Senator Brian Schatz joins us to talk about his tweet.

Yeah. About how we should try to convert potential Trump voters. He's a friend of the show. Friend of the show, yeah. Love that. Who else do we have on? We have Angel McCotry. Yeah, yeah.

Former number one pick in the WNBA. Hooper. She likes to. She's an Olympic. She's Olympian. She's going to be talking about Michael Porter Jr. saying that he could have dominated the WNBA when he was in eighth grade. I've had enough of Michael Porter Jr. Like, I don't know who started putting a mic in front of his face, but it needs to stop. I'm not trying to silence anybody, but like enough. They've told him not to talk.

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. I had an interesting conversation on the way in. And I've talked to this gentleman and we, everything that I'm saying right now, I talked to him and let him know I was going to be saying. I talked to Farrell Williams. Interesting. Earlier today.

And this is what Farrell communicated to me as we spoke. number one, he feels like the context of where he was and what he was talking about is not being considered. Okay. Farrell was doing a talk for a black ambition. Donnie looked this up, a black ambition initiative that he has. The intent of this initiative is to invest into black and brown entrepreneurship, lots of money, over 85 million. million dollars to invest into DEI

programs, diversity inclusion programs, and make sure that the people behind these programs get exactly what they need. That he's put people on shelves at Walmart and Costco and all of that stuff. What he meant to say and was trying to say, that's where Feralto me,

is that politics, which he was specifically talking about right versus left politics, not the overall example of what it means to be politically knowledgeable or engaged. Which in my response I gave him, I said I think he was trying to say political parties. He's talking about right versus left politics and how right versus left politics typically leave people behind.

It is divisive. It's divisive because it doesn't get at the heart of an issue. It is a fight for political power. And that is something that he doesn't want to be a part of. He doesn't want to be a part of a fight for political power. What he wants to be a part of is empowering people to go out and live their dreams and execute the things that they are talented in. That is one part of it. The other part of it in terms of him talking about being the best is what he was saying is that the only thing you are going to have to fall back on if, in fact, DEI is dismantled, is how great you.

are and that greatness is going to be the thing that you are going to have to invest into in terms of yourself if in fact there is no DEI, which is why he has the organization that he has, which is why he's put the $85 million into people, is because he wants to give everybody the opportunity to be the best. He also feels like that if people would have taken the time to look into what his organization is and where he was speaking and what he was talking about, then perhaps the backlash wouldn't have been so much. But I'll tell you this. I'll know about that. So I'll tell you this. We had a conversation and our conversation was a mutually beneficial conversation. It's not the first time I've spoken to Farrell, right? Our

conversation was a mutually beneficial conversation. I think that I was able to impart upon him the importance of political education and understanding how politics affects people's everyday lives. And I don't think that I knew as much about all the things that he was doing and all the ways that he was actually trying to impact lives by promoting black entrepreneurship, by promoting black people going out and being able to live their dreams and how he sees himself and some of the other people that he deals.

with as people who can circumvent government action to get people in places where they need to be and how important that is to them. Now, just to be honest with you, we didn't agree on everything. There is a way that I think that these types of things should be discussed and talked about that did not come across in what he was saying. And I think that we had that conversation. He was very, he listened and we had that conversation. This is what I would say. And I think this is a, for everyone that's like Farrell, and let's be honest about who he is,

he's someone that has had a tremendous amount of influence and success over the course of a phenomenal career. For everyone that is like Farrell, for everyone that actually cares about people, people and wants to help people and wants to be involved in people's lives. I would say everybody don't have to be, have someone that you can have conversations with around situations or things that you are uninitiated on. Like things that you don't, because not everybody is meant to be able to speak on these things. And he said that that's not his thing. His thing is not

speaking on issues like this. One of the first things he said. His thing is not speaking on issues. His thing is being able to move economic power, to be able to move corporate power, to be able to move community power to be able to get things done. That's his thing.

So then the question is, if you are him, what do you do to make sure that things like this that are subtracting to your overall goal, that those things don't happen. because we do live in a climate right now where the fight is existential.

We're going to talk to Senator Schatz about this, where the fight is existential. So every single thing that is seen as an opposition to the fight will be disintegrated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I obviously wasn't privy to the conversation that you had with Farrell, and I actually don't even remember exactly every.

I'm trying to, like, as you were talking, I'm trying to remember why he went. He jumped from talking about politics and it being divisive to DEI and black and being the best. I can't remember, like, the connection between the two. The connection was that the politics failed you. So this was the thing. The politics of it failed you. The Democrats lost and the Republicans came in and got rid of DEI. So the politics will fail you.

So fall back on your greatness. What will not fail you is your greatest. greatness. And you have to have people that invest into your greatness. Which is a great message. It's a great message. It's also a message that kind of runs at cross purposes when you're talking about the average American and what they need. And we and him have a comment. We talked about that. And what they have access to and all of that. I totally understand. The message is great of you should always, you should always be great and ready and prepared and all of that. That's what I mean by that's the great message.

You should always have that to fall back on when this is, because we're black. The system has failed us countless times. It's just something that should inately be within us because of how we've had to navigate our lives in this country. What I was going to say about Farrell, now I'm forgetting. That's black ambition right there. That's the thing.

No, no, it's beautiful. It was the addition and subtraction thing that you were talking about. And you're right. You say, so what is this? your question was, so what, what do you do? Like, what does Farrell do in this moment? I mean, we weren't the only people who talked about it. No, no, no, no, no. I don't know if he, yeah, he was talking about the fact that he was responding to the overall. Right, right. It was everywhere, is my point. And you know me, I'm very big on, I love that you had this conversation with him.

I love that there was, you know, you guys were able to respect where the other was coming from. You learned something from him. He learned something from you. You agree to disagree, all of that. But that's a conversation that you and Farrell had. Even I don't know everything that was discussed. To me, what would benefit Farrell in this situation because it has, it's everywhere. I see it everywhere. You got to talk again.

You got to talk again. But no, no, no, I'm very serious because one of the things, no, no, no, you have to talk about it because you're right. What you just mentioned, I didn't, I did not look into where he was speaking, who he was speaking to, and why he had a microphone and a seat on that stage. I had no idea, right? And what he said didn't even make me want to research that. I was paying attention to what he said.

And he's doing great things for the community. But what he said outshines that. And so my thing is, if you're going to say it in that vein, you have to come back out and speak to it again, not just have private conversations with people. And I don't mean this just because I do want to have them on the show. I mean it because it's what's, what we need. It's what we need to hear from you, what we need to understand. Not only does it

promote what it is that you're doing for the community, but just in the way that the two of you were able to understand each other where the other is coming from, sometimes we need to see that. That needs to be expressed. And I still stand by the things that, you know, we said on the last podcast when it comes to Farrell, but I also think that those conversations are very powerful for people to experience. I disagree. Maybe because you were the one privy to it. I disagree because everybody has different jobs.

You are right. Let me finish. I disagree because everybody has different jobs. I am a talker. You are a talker. We measure our words. We say things. We still don't always get it right.

Right? For sure. Everybody has different jobs. not everybody is a talker. Now, I will say if you're not willing to have the conversation, if you're not, I don't agree with what was said on the stage. I understand where he's coming from. I understand what his goal is.

I also understand sometimes how people can say and do things that's at cross purposes with their stated and energetic goals. That is a part of humanity. What I don't want, is a bunch of people doing a bunch of interviews about shit that they don't know nothing about. That's not what I'm asking for. And so what I'm saying is

if we would have had the, if we would have had the conversation publicly that him and I had privately, it would have just been for views because the conversation was a lot of listening, a lot of clunkiness, a lot of two people trying to, it was the way I actual, conversation goes. But if you

listen to the convo, it's much more valuable if two people actually make a real connection about what it is that they want and can agree to on certain things and agree to disagree on other things, then it is for consumption. Who's it valuable for? What do you mean? Who is that conversation

value? The conversation that two of you had together, who was that value for? For them? No. No. Because I guess I guess this is, again, we just So we disagree on this. Well, it depends on what you believe. The reason why it's valuable is because now we can actually get something done. Now there's actually, if you believe, hold on, community building is not about cameras and microphones.

It's not what I'm saying. You had a great conversation with Farrell. Now, from that conversation, I think that there could be a bigger conversation about it. Because here's, you would have to listen to higher learning or this has to get picked up somewhere. for people to understand the value of what you experienced in that conversation. It, for, for, for, for, and I, like, I actually appreciate what he said, what you're relaying that he said in that conversation. But for it to have actual value, more people need to see it and hear it. It, it can't just live in that conversation. And I, and the, and yes, of course, I want him on the podcast,

but that's not what I'm saying for it. This is why I talk about the value of it. y'all had a private conversation now you have an understanding of where he was coming from from that let's sit down and have a conversation that's what I'm saying I'm not asking him to do a media tour I actually think there's benefit in the two of you talking

rather than you going in us going in blind with an interview now it can be a conversation because you understand him better that's like a call in versus a call out it could have gone totally different if he would have just dialed in and we had the conversation So I actually understand that or the interview.

Now I feel like there's a better conversation. And the other reason I really want him to speak out is because, again, he's using the same word value. I do think that there is some value in what he has to say. And because it is caught on and becomes so big, most people will never know where he was coming from. They'll never understand the intention behind it. And they'll develop a certain type of, I guess, a feeling when it comes to Farrell. and if it hadn't been so public, then I probably would have a totally different take on it,

but because it did, and because he reached out to you, which means he's obviously bothered by it and concerned, then why not? Let's make this a little bit more effective and reach out to a little, to more people. Have a conversation with somebody you can trust. He called you because he could trust you.

Well, I should... And because you could relay it for him in a better way. No, I should say this. There's the cynicism. So I should say it this. I should say like this. Me and Farrell have talked before. I did not reach out to him before we talked about what we talked about,

but I did reach out to him after. And after I reached out to him, he was like, let's get on the phone. Okay. I want to make clear what I'm saying. If you are a national, when I say everybody has different jobs, I want to once again define what I mean. If you are a national political figure, it is your job to coalition build.

It is your job to make people say, for giving you power. Okay, you're supposed to be a good talker. If you, in fact, are not a good talker, I would rather you not talk. Because what will happen if you do is your best laid plans, what you meant to say,

what you were trying to say will come out wrong and then be weaponized. What you were trying to get across will come out wrong and then be weaponized. I would rather you do and surround. I would rather you humble yourself and not get in front of a bunch of people and give a bunch of words about things

that you do not know anything about. I actually think that's helpful. I actually think it's helpful in certain situations for me on certain things. The reason why we bring a lot of guests on these podcasts, I deep dive AI. I read four AI articles every single day, watch countless videos on AI.

The reason why Ed is on this podcast is because Ed knows it better. It doesn't make any sense for me to get on the podcast and try to act like I understand AI like Ed does. Ed is the AI guy. Ed Ditron, who we're going to have back on because AI going crazy.

Ed is the AI guy. Have them on there and talk to him. Would it look great for me if I look like this sort of ultimate intellect that could sit down and speak completely fluid on any subject, sure. And there are a lot of people who can do that.

There are a lot of people who have the acuity to be able to do that. I'm someone who gets deeply curious into something and likes to talk to people that can help streamline the way that I think. I'm digressing. But what I am trying to say is that rather than have a conversation

where you, because we're not going to hold his hand through it, right? Rather than have a conversation and put yourself in a position, where you are going to once again fuck up. I would rather you say, listen, these are my stated goals to people.

These are my stated goals. This is what I'm about. This is what I am trying to do. He said a lot of things in the conversation. They're straight up wrong. Straight up wrong. Like, I'll touch on one thing. There are a lot of people,

a lot of famous and wealthy people that confuse the idea of philanthropy with systemic change. Yeah. I want to say something to the audience right now. Y'all know Spelman University, right? Of course. Spelman College.

Spelman College. It's Spelman College. Y'allelman College, right? I'm sure a lot of y'all know that Spelman is the maiden name of Rockefeller's wife, right? I actually didn't know that. You did not know that? Like, Spelman, the college, is named after the wife of Rockefeller. Okay.

Because they made the philanthropic donation to get Spellman started. All right. Does that change what Spellman has done? No, in no way, shape, or form. Spellman is a shining beacon on a hill in terms of an HBCU, right? For the rich ones. No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

I say that to say this. For everything that Spellman is done, for everything that Moorhaus is done, for everything that every philanthropic institution that has ever tried to help black people or any people has done. it is just not as significance, as significant as systemic disassembly and change. Sure. And it never will be.

So if you are a hyper-rich person and you think that you can give away enough money to, you can't, you can't give away enough money. You can give, you can help. It helps. It is amazing to help people. Anytime that you've sent somebody to college, anytime that you have put food in to continue to do it, we all should do it, we all should do it, we should do it, we should do it, we should do it.

But if you come out and you say, maybe the Voting Rights Act is not as important as something else that I'm doing, you have undid every single thing that you have did because you have fundamentally diminished black power in this country by taking their access to the ballot away. your words are worth billions of dollars, the billions of dollars that you've given away when you've done stuff like that.

These systems have to get dismantled and they have to die and they have to get reformed. And if that's not happening, no amount of philanthropy can change that. And sometimes when you talk to people that are really well-resourced, they'll tell you about all of the work that they've did because that's what they understand.

They understand, I do something great and I get paid for it. And if I pay somebody else, I'm giving them something great. So when you have in that conversation, sometimes you're like, you know, just let you know something. What I'm saying is that sometimes, in some situations,

some of these things need to be handled in community, not necessarily with me, but with anyone. It need to be handled in community. Because if you're not positioning yourself as a leader of the culture, as a spokesperson of the culture, then maybe you don't need to be talking.

and that goes for me, for anybody else. If you position yourself as a leader of the culture as a part of the cultural intelligentsia, then you need to, but if not, let's do the work, don't feel like you have to beat a person out. There's plenty of people you could call. Plenty of people you, plenty of people, I call people all the time.

Call people all the time. Plenty of people you could call. Call them. Call them. Or come on higher learning. No, no. You said, I already tried that. Yeah.

But I would love to have him on the podcast. Oh, now we would have him on the podcast. I would love to have him on the podcast just because it's for real. But we would have to ask. Oh, we're going to have to ask. I would love to have him on the podcast. This is for real. But I can tell.

But you know what was, you know what was really interesting to me? What? It really bothered them. I know it did. I just said that. And that's why. He wasn't on some, I know we talked about it. It really bothered them.

I know, I know, I know we've talked about this too long. All I'll just say is, is I agree with you that certain people have certain jobs and certain people shouldn't necessarily be talking about things that they're not informed on. All I'll say is, is, but once you do, then there's another side of it. That's fair. That's all. That's it. All right.

Now, quiet, piggy. Damn. Hey, while we stay on the piggy thing, I'm having, I got to talk about how I'm looking at myself in the mirror now. I saw what you posted. You gotta stop. I got to stop. I don't feel. I'm not sexy no more.

It's tough, man. You really need to stop. I used to look good. And you know what? For all of y'all out there that was like, you never really look good. That's not true.

Donnie put some pictures. I used to look good, man. And I'm having issues with this because it's like, my dad never stopped looking good. He never was whacked. Can I be very honest with you? My dad was never whacked.

And I'm looking at pictures and I'm like, nigga, you whack now. I don't like when you do I don't care. I don't like when you do this to yourself. I'm talking about real shit. You know what? Let's go to the piggy thing since you call me a piggy.

You call me a piggy. I don't like when you do this to yourself because I'm seeing this. She called me a piggy. Quiet. Quiet. See? She hit me with the piggy shit. But I just want to say this.

I hate when you do this to yourself. I saw you post that picture. You posted a picture of you when you were smaller and then you showed a picture of yourself that was not flattering. That's not even what you look like. It was not a flattering picture. And I just, I saw this posted on social media of how we are normalizing the use of certain drugs

to, for people who don't, no, for people who don't need it. I was at BravoCon and I was looking at people in person that I have watched over the years. And the way that we're just okay with how skinny people are getting and then praising them for how great they look is so problematic that we need to, talk about this more. It's one thing if you're using it because you need it for your health

or you are trying to lose some weight. It's another thing if you're just doing it because you don't want to eat because you just want to be like problematically skinny. And for you, when you post those pictures of you smaller and then look at your show yourself

now, I actually think you look great. And that's what I say that with that respect. I say that with respect to Kalika and everything. I don't want to see you super thin. I think you look great. And I hate when you do that to yourself. I really do. I got to be real with you. I don't care. I really do.

Like, I don't want to see you that super skinny. I think you look great. I want to have this conversation. I want people to be able to see the vulnerability of a nigger that's washed that walks around with his Achilles soar and has to put ointment on. I want y'all to feel this. Because I don't know, I feel like y'all don't feel this in real time. Like, I looked up this. Dustin Hoffman is 88 years old.

That broke my fucking brain when I saw that. I didn't know he was that all. And so I just want you out to, this is called, over the next couple of years, I want you all to be party to something. The Great Washingy. That's what y'all about to witness. The Great Washingy.

I had to have an MRI on my Achilles, came back negative, still sore. Nobody knows why. Okay? Woke up this morning. Crap, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Pop, pop, pop, went in there. You know what my workout this morning was?

Know what my workout this morning was? A lot of y'all going to the gym, y'all getting up shots, y'all running five miles. I played on a VR. That was my workout. I did a VR workout on the Oculus. I worked out, that's why I did. That's why I did the Oculus. I did 40 push-ups.

It felt like I fucking climbed a mountain. You know what I'm saying? After that, went took a shower, put the ointment on my Achilles, feel great. Good. The ointment going to wear off about four. 45 minutes, and I'm going to feel like the 10 man from Wicked. The Great Washington. It's happening.

And I watched my dad, my dad could lift like 400 pounds when he was 50 years old. These niggil was still getting the shit popping. It's happening. And you know what? If I have to go through it, fuck it. Y'all are going to go through it too. We're going to be washed together. My knees hurt.

Now, uh... Slide some oils to me. See? See, my back. So listen to this. So listen to this. We got to move on. But so I'm getting the MRI on my Achilles, right?

Mm-hmm. They got to do each foot individually. 30 minutes on each foot for the MRI. You couldn't just lay down and they just couldn't. They, shout out to Optima imaging. I did the right foot and then I did the left foot. Mm-hmm. The woman, this was very funny.

the woman goes, okay, what do you want to listen to? Like, what do you want to listen to? I said, put on Ryan Chapman. Ryan Chapman is this YouTuber that I really like. I was like, put on Ryan Chapman, and he's got a video about nationalism. She's like, for real? I was like, yeah.

Ryan Chapman, the video about nationalism. So I listened to the whole video. And then it's like, I can hear from the back. She goes, uh, the next one is about Marxism. Do you want to listen to that? and I was like yo do I say that I'm kind of interested in learning about marks and angles and

everyone I was like yeah put it on she goes okay click and she puts it on they put my right foot in there for the MRI then they put my left foot in there for the MRI I'm laying down so long and my back starts I'm laying down she's like what's wrong I'm like, hey, man, my lower back. She's like, just from laying there? I'm like, yo, just fucking, can we end it? Just, and then, you know, washed. All right, you know what?

Fuck it. Nobody understands. Keep trying to tell people that nobody. You know what? This is what's like being a black man. Oh, God. Okay, let's just fucking do the Trump thing. We'll be back on the Trump thing again.

Donnie, just bring it up. Yeah, let's do it. On Air Force, one last, Trump cut off a reporter. She is Catherine Lucy from Bloomberg News. She asked a question about the Epstein files and this was how that exchange went down. You like it.

See what I'm saying? Hold on for a second. Y'all like, you see, this is what I'm talking about with Rachel, man. Rachel, just talk about all of that. So look at her. Look at her. She likes them.

Donnie chuckle too. Rachel, no, no. You're chuckling. I thought it was. See, yeah. Thank you, Donnie. Vigina. Rachel likes them

She likes them I get so much shit Rach be cooking me But like She likes them Look you liked it You know how people will say something is

So ugly It becomes cute It's so outrageous It's so ridiculous That I mean I listen to it so many times Because I was like No he couldn't have

Wait what There's no way And apparently you know, you keep doing research. It's not his first time. I know he's called people a pig, but it's not his first time calling somebody piggy. It's such unhinged behavior that there's something about the quiet piggy.

You like it. No, no, no, no. There's something about the quiet, oh, you know who they are eating up about quiet piggy. Who? Billy Bush. Billy Bush posted a video about Quiet Piggy and started laughing. And people were like, are you not reading the room? Billy Bush

I mean he goes on to criticize it but like people are like you can't laugh again Billy Billy and I'm just gonna be Billy, Billy got a chill Billy went along with that shit Billy was on some whole shit

He did go along with it scored another one for the Donald Billy was on some whole shit back in the day Billy don't have no leeway to come out Like how dare Billy? I was actually surprised I'm like come on you

That's your man Did you call? Did you hit him and be like y'all It's not right? No but I don't talk to him like that We used to work together But I don't That's what I'm talking about.

I don't. Step away from that shit. I don't. I just was, come on. Like, come on. But the quiet piggy to me symbolize. Because when she's asking him the question, she's obviously asking him about the Epstein files.

He answers the question without answering the question. And then she follows up and he's like, quiet piggy. And it's like, oh, he can't. I mean, we know that he's upset, but it on the hills of the way that the House voted. And now he's like, oh, release the files. him speaking out in that way, it symbolizes the unraveling of him more in a way than it does before.

Yeah, he's rude. Yeah, he disrespects women. He degrades women. He uses this power dynamic when it comes to his money and his business and all of that, his fame to continue to push women down. He hates women.

Trump hates women. And it's very obvious. But the quiet piggy and the timing of it And the question that she was asking shows that he is falling apart over this Epstein thing. That was anger. That was rage. He doesn't want to be asked about it. It goes beyond the intimidation factor that he uses.

It goes beyond the fact that he's trying to quiet the press and not have them just talk about the things that he wants to talk about. It's so more than that. And I think that this is a signal to keep poking the bear. He's on, he's always unhinged. but he's unraveling right now. I say we keep asking these questions. We keep poking at him. And the White House response

that was like, if you're going to give it, you have to take it. I think people should just start. When old girl gets up the press secretary, that's what should be shot. Quiet, Piggy. And I guarantee you they won't have the same response. They probably will. So, you know, this, you know,

I love how it says a former Miss Universe contestant, as if to say that it wasn't right to call her a piggy because she was fine. Well, that's who she is, too. I get it, but it's like, there was a lot of things they could have put there. This is what I said, you know. Oh, no, this is a different one right here

when they talk about, this was from the past, so I apologize, but still, though. So this is what I'm saying. All right, so obviously the Epstein thing is bothering Trump. Trump can't break character because you can't break character if you don't have any character.

Like, you can't. every time we get up in arms about Donald Trump saying something mean or insulting, we're actually allowing them to flood the zone and make that into the story because that is what happens. The flooding of the zone, the Steve Bannon thing, is to just put as much shit in there. Sure. So we don't pay attention to the story that you actually hit on, which is that Trump's base bucked him. Trump relented.

Trump is taking some losses, man. Trump lost to China. China put it on that ass. Okay? Trump lost to China. He then had to... China. He then had to walk back some of his tariffs

because the price was rising at a really inopportune time for Americans, some of these beef tariffs and tariffs on other things. He had to walk those back. His tariffs are going to infuse the economy with all of this money or bring manufacturing

back to America and then lower costs. It does not seem to be working. And then you have a resounding rebuke from the most loyal parts of his party. We're talking about the Bolberts and the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world that said despite pressure from the White House, we will not relent on the Epstein thing.

And all of that stuff to me is a really interesting political development whether or not MAGA has any legs after Trump used to be a story. The question is, now does MAGA have any legs with Trump? Now, if I was going to comment on the picky thing on its own, I will tell you why it is particularly offensive to me.

Okay. I hate fat traders, man. I hate traders to the fat. Like, Trump, I hate, my worst thing is a fat boy. A fellow fat boy acting like they're not fat. I hate it. We have gone so far in fat technology. One of the pioneering fats, bone crusher, takes his shirt off.

DJ Khalid, you know, he's fucked up on other issues, But on the issues of fat first, boom, bone crush. I remember on the BET Awards had a whole high-caloric crew out there. Just fattened it up. Titty's flying. And my thing is this, we have come way too far for the fat traders in our miss. If you want to take Ozimpic and all of that stuff, that's cool. Because then you're not fat no more.

Whatever, go, whatever. But for Trump to look at somebody else and calling him a picky, bro, you fat. You want to us, man. You are fat. How's that? Trump, don't act like, you know what you are, Trump? You're fat. And I know a plus 30 BMI when I see it.

And to all of my people out there, just know I'm not talking down on you. I'm telling you that I'm with you. I'm with you. Now, look at it. I'm with you. That's a titty. And I'm never going to turn my back on y'all,

ever in any way, shape, or form. I'm never going to make fun of somebody else's fat. They thighs. I was in the kitchen this morning doing the boxing game, sweat flying everywhere. Bozeman terrified. I'm like,

I'm never going to, look at the disgust and look on Rachel's face. Look at what she's, people don't like hearing about the fat humans. And I'm telling you right now, what I don't like about this is Trump,

you fat. Guess what, Trump? You're fat. You don't, forget about her. You don't betray us. By calling somebody, you're fat, and you've been fat for years. You were especially fat in your first term.

Fat, fuck. You're fat. Look at that shit right there. You're fat. And we're fat together. Don't you ever turn your back on us again? Ever turn your back on us again. You fat, you're fat.

That was a great rant. Such a great rant. Only you could do it like that. I will say, though, when he called her piggy, you know he wouldn't even calling her fat. It doesn't matter. I know, I know, but when he calls her picky, he's calling her a pig.

He's calling her slav and desks, I just want to say, which makes it degrading. He's a slob, disgusting, sloppy. That's what he's doing. He's calling her an animal, not even making her a human, which is how he looks at women. Trump hates women. But the fat rant was great.

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All right, on higher learning now, we have a sitting senator. Wow, what is happening here? Brian Schatz of Hawaii, thank you, Senator Schatz, for joining us on Higher Learning. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you both. We want to talk about one tweet. Rachel, take it away. Okay, so you tweet it out. Let me pull it.

You have the tweet pulled up? Yeah, I'll read the tweet. The tweet says there are a lot of MAGA people online admitting that Trump is betraying them. And if you dunk on these people, you are very likely terrible at politics. Politics is about addition, not subtraction, right? Now, I don't know if I necessarily agree with you. We talked about this on the last podcast. But what were you, I'll just ask you, wanting to communicate when you said that?

Just that, you know, people vote for you for their reasons, not yours. and that the object of the game, if you are in the craft of politics, if you're in the professional politics, is to get more votes than the other side. And so the threshold for like inviting someone into your coalition or your family is one thing. But allowing someone to say, hey, this person has betrayed me, this person who I thought was going to lower prices, didn't lower prices. This person who I thought was going to, you know, get order on the streets is actually causing disorder.

Like we should just take the W and not ask too many additional questions. A buddy of mine who's the former governor in Hawaii used to knock on doors in the Makiki neighborhood. And when he would get the vote, he would immediately, when someone said, I will vote for you, he would immediately say thank you as quickly as he could and walk out the door or walk out the driveway. Because that's the end of the conversation. Once you have secured the vote, you move on. I think it is different when you're talking about allowing someone to become a political leader in your movement. I think it is different in terms of friendships. Like there's more of a need

for reconciliation and interrogation of past actions. But for me in the business of like, we got to win this because it is serious and people are getting harmed as we speak. If someone with whom I've disagreed all my life says, hey, this guy's bad for my pocketbook, I just take the W. And we don't have to praise them sort of excessively, but I think we should take the W. Senator, what do you mean when you say don't ask too many questions because we've seen the videos of people who do say things like, oh, this is hurting my pocketbook. Oh, this is affecting this part of my life. This is affecting me in so many different ways. But then they still say, but no matter what, I still vote for Trump. So isn't it necessary to follow up with questions and to interrogate a little bit more?

Because it doesn't necessarily mean that you got the W, you got the vote. It just means that they're just expressing, you know, they're upset. Yeah, I think we should move them in our direction, right? but I think we have to move them in our direction in a way. Like, it's hard to admit you were wrong, right? In politics or any other place. So when people start to, you know, intimate that they may have been duped, that we just have to try to kind of smooth the way for them. I mean, I think about Tulsi Gabbard, who was, you know, part of my congressional delegation

in Hawaii and who was now the director of national intelligence. And she was- Aha, so it's your fault. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. But she was a Bernie endorsing, like, left-wing progressive. and when she decided to get Trumpy, like they cultivated her. They got, they feted her. They had dinner with her.

They promised her things. Now, I don't think we have to be quite as amoral as that. But I do think there is something to be learned from a political coalition that sort of doesn't make sense, right? If you're a winning coalition, you're going to have people who are not internally consistent with themselves or with each other. And I think the flaw in the sort of progressive movement, I think maybe eight years ago in particular was like, it was kind of this constant purification ritual where we're trying to make sure everybody was all lined up and intersectional. And I think people just reacted adversely to that and said, like, look, I'm with you on seven out of ten things. Isn't that good enough? And I think we have to get back to, you know, look, they're going to be the core of the progressive movement.

They're going to be leaders in our political party. And that's a different standard. but just like I'm willing to vote for these guys because I'm pissed off about the current state of things. Like I'm done asking questions of those people. Rachel, to your question, if someone is saying I'm pissed at Trump but I'm still voting for him, that's not the W.

I agree. So, okay, so two questions. One, I'll articulate a concern then ask a question. Take somebody like Tulsa Gabbard. Tulsi Gabbard was a Bernie D. Democrat, builds a platform as a Bernie Democrat, then gets to a certain perch of national prestige and visibility, and then switches. I think a lot of these issues are so central to the humanity

of people that they are wary of entering into coalition or power building with people that they feel like aren't genuine. And so while I tend to agree with you about what you're saying, I think some of the purification ritual is just to make sure that you're not letting war. into your house. Yeah, yeah. So I think like, so I let's take the kind of neocons who, who went with Kamala and some of them have kind of become the never Trumpers. And some of those are, you know, pretty interesting people. And some of them moved left over time. But some of them are basically still neocons. And the reason they hate Trump is like, he's not neocon enough, John Bolton, all those people. Does want to blow enough shit up. Yeah, exactly. And so, look, they should not

be writing our foreign policy, but like, will I accept their vote? Yes, I will. And so I think, Being crisp about what it is that we mean to be in coalition with people is really critical. Like in the state of Hawaii, you know, the Democratic Party is really dominant and there are Republicans who end up switching parties, but they kind of retain their old views, right? They do not become party leaders, but we welcome them in because, you know, that's one more for us. And so I just think part of what I'm trying to convey to folks is like winning is okay. Winning is a moral imperative. People are getting really hurt right now. People are getting terrorized.

People are going broke. I mean, really broke, and you both know this. And so part of progressivism, and I come from that tradition, is to fight against power, right? And so there's this instinct that all power is ill-begotten. All power is to be fought against. And sometimes we have to remember that the whole point of this movement is to achieve power, so we can help people and sometimes getting to, I mean, I remember a buddy of mine who's no longer in the state legislature, Speaker of the House, and the magic number to get to a majority

so you could be speakers, 26. And he was stuck at 20. And he goes, there's only 20 people that I really want to be in a coalition with. And I said, cool, you can either be the speaker or you can be in a coalition with the 20 that you agree with. But otherwise, you got to cut a deal with six human beings that you maybe think are flawed in whatever set of ways. He made a judgment that he wanted to be the Speaker of the House, that he wanted to be in charge. And I think there's good, I'm not sure we've got 51% that share our values and share our views. And so you find those issues of overlap and you get very pragmatic about it, not because it's just all real politic and this is all a game, but actually the opposite. This is not a game. This is not a purification ritual. This is the way

public policy is made and winning, I mean, the other way to say it is like losing has actual impacts, actual consequences. And so I fear that people want to be vindicated more than they want to win. And I'm trying to make sure that the progressive movement, that the Democratic Party is like, elevates the primacy of winning because that's the moral imperative. And all those people out there struggling want us to be the pragmatic winners. I think that's why Gavin's got momentum. I think that's why a number of governors have momentum. I think that's why people like to see the litigation. They like to see actual victories,

and as opposed to just sort of who down the line agrees with you on everything. Is there ever an example where dunking culture could ever be okay? Oh, shoot. I mean. She likes to dunk. That's like, this is like Shaq right here. Yeah. I enjoyed your, that you gave.

MTG, oh, MTK, a zero. Thank you. Or an N-A, excuse me. I was going to have a DNP, but I think, I don't know, Rachel. It's a very interesting question. I have, sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's terrible,

and sometimes you can make a point, but not sure that it ever actually gets us more votes than it loses us. So I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question. So we've been very generous for your time. one thing I want to post to you because this is kind of an Ezra Klein type of argument. I'm sure you've read and seen Ezra Klein and some of the conversations that he's had.

He said something that was really interesting at one point. He talked about we were going to have to run a couple of pro-life Democrats. And herein lies the actual conversation to me is the autonomy of a woman's body is a core issue. to me. It gets to the heart of what freedom is in America and what human rights are, right?

When you say seven out of ten things you can agree with somebody on and that should be good enough. How much should it matter what those three things are? Oh, that's a really, so that's a hard one, right? Because we're not going to do like, yeah, if the three ones are like, you're also a Nazi and you hate queer people and whatever. If the three are, if the three are, hey, we want to take, Trump's bad from my pockets, but I did like what he did with taking Jackie Robinson out of the, or I did like what he did

by getting rid of the DOJ situation where they were suing to clean the wastewater in Alabama. And you're like, how am I supposed to build a coalition with someone who wants me to drink shit? It's just very tough. Just tell us what we should do

in the Brian Shats' presidency. No presidency ever. So I think it's a very tough call, but I will tell you that it becomes a little easier when you're talking about a Joe Manchin, who's the only person who could represent West Virginia in the United States Senate and have a D next to his name. And so the fact that he was in my, you know, I know him pretty well, that I consider him wrong on a number of issues. It's still value over replacement, right? And I think that's the point that Ezra is making, or at least the point that I'd like to embrace,

which is we're not talking about running pro-life Democrats in like Illinois or California or Hawaii, right? We're talking about running people with sort of a kind of mix of center-left, center-right views so that we can win in places like Louisiana or South Dakota or Montana because it's always better to have a conservative Democrat in the United States Senate than it is to have a so-called moderate Republican because those moderate Republicans are way to the right of your conservative Democrats. So are there, like, limiting principles that are, you know, I just can't get with something, you know, sure. But for the most part, you're letting Joe Manchin, look, he voted, you know, he voted with us on most of the judiciary. Yeah, but at the same time, your friend blocked my voting rights and he blocked justice and policing.

That's what I was going to say. They get in, but then what happens when it comes to voting on policy? Look, he was very unhelpful on a number of things that I thought were very important. On the other hand, had he not won, Mitch McConnell would have been the leader of the Senate. It would have been 51-49 for Republicans. And so all those things that we accomplished while we were there, obviously short of especially the voting rights bills. But all those things that we accomplished, the biggest climate action in American history, lowering the price of prescription medicine, codifying the right to marry anybody, the first gun safety legislation in a generation. None of that happens unless, you know, this is the truth,

unless Joe Manchin is there to be vote number 50. So Kamal Harris can be vote number 51 so that Chuck Schumer can be the leader of the United States Senate and Democrats get gavels and consent policy. So did Joe frustrate me like almost every morning? Yes, he did. Is he better for Democrats than Jim Justice? Yes, he is. Well, he frustrated you.

He imprisoned me. and that is the but you know what I'll tell you something else I we're gonna get you out of here but I saw what you did you called us broke did you hear what Brian did

Ryan said Ryan said people are going broke like I know y'all know I'm like goddamn I work for the government I'm quite clear you are not broke all right before we get you out of here

what's your one issue every politician I want to know what's your one issue What's your one issue? You got a magic wand. You changed this issue. It is climate. I think it is the challenge of our generation.

And I think we have a real opportunity here because I've been working on this issue for more than 25 years. And it was always the case that this was a moral imperative. But we couldn't always look people in the face and say that if you take climate action, it will be cheaper for you. The change that has happened with these solar and wind bands that the Trump administration is instituting is that now. Now we can align everyone's pocketbook with the needs of the planet. Solar and wind and clean energy is now officially almost everywhere cheaper than all the stuff that's dirtying the planet. And I think that's a generational opportunity for us to kind of switch the way people think about this issue. Thank you.

Thank you so much. So much for joining us, Senator. I'm looking up a list of notable people from Hawaii because we need to get you some new friends. you have Tulsi Gabbard and... Barack Obama! Barack Obama! Do you hang out?

You didn't even mean... Hang out with Barack Obama. Like, Tulsi and Joe, you can kick them to the... They gotta go. They got to Barack Obama. We went to the same high school 10 years apart, and I used to text his sister and be like, I'm available if he wants a ninth or a tenth for a pickup game.

I never got a response. I can't shoot. Brian, thank you so much. for joining us on higher learning. We will take your words with great concern and care. And I think we have to figure out how we're going to win. Yeah, for sure.

And so that is very important. Yeah. So appreciate you joining us today, man. Thank you. Thank you both. Yeah. This is breaking from the Washington Post. It looks like the United States Coast Guard has officially changed this policy

and will no longer define swastikas as hate symbols. According to the report, Resuasikas will now be recognized as controversial symbols, which will allow commanders to investigate the circumstances of their use before disciplinary action, which is no longer under the new policy, it says. And according to this, it looks like nooses are also included in this downgrade from hate symbol to controversial. So. Where is this coming from? This is from the Washington Post. No, no, no.

Sorry. I mean like the who's the report. coming from, I meant what spark, obviously, we know this is deplorable, but like, what sparked to this? What made them say, hey, we're going to make these changes in our policy today? We're going to, I'm just like wondering where this came from. So according to The Washington Post, a Coast Guard, excuse me, the Coast Guard did not immediately provide comment. Of course. A Coast Guard official who had seen the new wording called the policy chilling. It says,

we don't deserve the trust of the nation if we're unclear about the divisiveness of swastikas, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the fear of reprisal. A Coast Guard official fears reprisal from

talking about the divisiveness of a swastika. The Coast Guard and the its military service branch under the Department of Homeland Security, the purview of Homeland Security Secretary, Christy Knoem, it's a military service branch. But the service, which has been central to President Donald Trump's increased focus on Homeland Defense, has been swept up, like others,

the administration's rash of leadership firings and broader targeting of military culture. So, you know, they've been other stuff that's going on here, and this article is quite extensive. It seems as if the Trump administration's idea of dewokening is to somewhat sanitize the swastika. Yeah, whitewash it. They want to reclaim the swastika.

Swastika. Interesting. But interesting in the sense that Trump is with Israel, yet your administration is doing things that fall in line with anti-Semitism. Well, I think that there's an interesting conflict there. Yeah.

There's an interesting attraction. What I mean is that like there is a contingent of, there's a contingent of people that I know. Let me not eat around the edges here. There are Arden Zionists who have myself talked to that say they don't, care as much about anti-Semitism as they do about anti-Zionism. Now, I can't say that there's a lot of people. I can say that I've heard from people who say

that anti-Semitism, which hasn't been as big a deal in America, it's certainly a scourge worldwide and has affected Jewish people in America, is less important than anti-Zionism. So I guess to say that, I guess what I'm trying to say is that are there, is there, and I be interested in having the Jewish voice on what to talk about this. Is there a contingent of people that don't really care about stuff like this directly as long as Trump is protecting the state of Israel? Protecting the state of Israel. I wouldn't want a Jewish person.

I want a Zionist on. If that's the case, if what you're saying is... Well, I would want a Jewish person, and I'll tell you why. A Jewish person that's either Zionist or not... I'm sorry, go ahead. I just want to say, the reason I say that is because if what you're saying... Right, you're not saying this is everyone, but... You have talked to people where this is, that are Zionists.

Okay. Maybe it's, maybe it's more. But it might be more. I would be interested in that because as we talk about constantly, look at what happened in New York City with Mundani. It was this talking about the rise of anti-Semitism and how it's growing and it's a concern. And I believe that. So how can someone say, well, I'm not as concerned with that as I am with protecting the state of Israel.

Make it make sense. Because if you are in fear of your life and, and I will say, yes, it is growing. If you are fearful of that and you're fearful of rhetoric or symbols that pour into that, how can you not be concerned about a report that comes out like this?

You are normalizing symbols that are hate, hateful. It doesn't make sense to me. I would love for particularly that person to come on and talk about it. Can I give you what they said? Please. And we should also say this.

These are two black people, non-Jewish people, people that are talking about what is potentially the thoughts or feelings of an entire diaspora of people. Yeah. But I'm telling you why, and by the way, before we begin to get into this,

before we even get into this, we do not know what the response from people is going to be over this. We don't know. Right? We don't know what the response is going to be. Sure. There is a deep, deep, deep divide right now on the right

surrounding anti-Semitism, the rise of Nazism. I watched an interview last night between Tucker Carlson and Nikki Haley's son. Oh yeah, he's making the rounds.

He is. And that interview convinced me of something. Tucker Carlson is going to run for president in 2028. Oh. And he is going to empower Nick Fuentes in some type of way in either his campaign or his administration. That's terrifying.

Let me tell you why I think this. Because Carlson, with his platform, is clearly choosing a side in the generational divide that exists on the right. The generational divide on the right is from the older wing of conservative thought that leans toward neocon attitudes, a little bit more hawkish, definitely more reliant and close to Israel, right?

Specific allegiance there. A little bit less directly, directly Christian. And when I say, I mean, don't get me wrong. They're evangelical Christians. but there's a generational divide that Tucker is clearly choosing the side in, and that generational divide is between the older contingent of the right, like 45-50 plus that is a little bit more loyal to Israel, and has the same neocon streak in them that's existed in the past.

These are the older Heritage Foundation people. These are the Mark Levens. These are the Ben Shapiro's. All of those people that represent traditional conservative thought that has existed over the past 50 or 60 years, right, with a little bit of change, a little bit of Trumpism injected in. Your idea of America first and all of that stuff. We're America first, but at the same time, if we have to, we'll bomb Iran, right? All of that type of stuff. Then there is the people that are basically 40 and below.

Some people say 45 and below, I think it's more like 40 and below, who are like outwardly racist and anti-Semitic, right? These people have really been influenced by the Groyper movement. They're Christian nationalists. They're chauvinistic in a way. They have in-cell tendencies, and these people are, they are completely isolationist in their view of America's place in the world. they are hostile, if not critical of the state of Israel

and of jewelry itself. Tucker has clearly chosen the side. And the side that he has chosen is what he believes the future of the right to be. So interesting. And you can tell in the way that he's doing these interviews. He does an interview with Ted Cruz where he rightly skewers Ted Cruz,

who is one of the mascots of that version of conservatism. Him along with Lindsey Graham and whomever else you want to name, right? One of the mascots of it. He skewers him on that. But when he has Nick Fuentes on, when he has Nicky's son on,

I think his name is Caden. Is he a Groyper? He is very much aligned with that when you listen to him. I just want to understand you. I want to agree with you. I want to let, yes, and a lot of the things that you're saying. Now, criticisms of Israel aside,

because a lot of those criticisms of Israel, like I said before, have been used to mainstream and legitimize some of these characters who have some of the worst ideas ever, right? Tucker is choosing aside, very clearly. And he has made the decision, the calculation, if you ask me, to say that I will be big brother to those people, and bring them into, not that you need to mainstream them, they already have millions and millions of followers.

I will be big brother to them and count on the fact that that movement will grow in the next three to four years, five years maybe, rather than admonish them and ask them to grow up and join the traditional contingent of the right. He's definitely made a choice. J.D. Vance and other people have totally punted. J.D. Vance has totally

punted on talking about this. J.D. Vance's wife is directly attacked. J.D. Vance's entire way, and he just will not speak to it. Tucker has chosen the other path. Why do I say all of this? This right here is a part of that. Situations like this and policy like this is this is

because of the influence of the Groyper class of Republicans. So you think it's already that school of thought is influencing the Trump administration already. Because I know I get the Tucker part. It's influencing conservative thought to such a degree that it is reorienting

every single thing that they stood on before. So would you say, if that's the case, would you say that this is the biggest, I guess not towards that? This is the biggest movement within the administration. Because I guess my question,

is if the U.S. Coast Guard is going to do this, what's to stop, you know, other things within the Department of Homeland Security or any other department under the Trump administration, or just, I mean, within the administration. This is just the first. This is what you're saying is true. This is the thing.

The thing is the, let's have, let's ask questions dynamic, right? So let's say there's something that we understand. Like, we understand that if somebody should, shows you a swastika that is a universal sign of evil. Mm-hmm. Right? The question is why? Why is it a universal sign of evil?

Well, the swastika is not just the actual symbol. The cross is not just a cross. The cross is a symbol that undergirds and enforces an entire religion and really an entire way of life. when you think about the life of Jesus Christ and who Jesus Christ was, it is emblematic of sacrifice and forgiveness and tolerance to me.

So when you see the cross, you think someone who's sacrificed for all of that. That sign is supposed to be a sign that means, hey, you know what? Actually, I want to see the best for you. So back in the day, when you saw somebody wearing the cross, hey, Christian, blah, blah, blah, blah. Swastika, it leads.

for since it's been taken by the Nazis inverse of that right swastika means hey I don't fuck with you I do not I don't fuck with you

I have a specific view of the world and that view of the world means your death is a part of my ascension I'll kill 12 million of you I'll kill 12 million of you to purify my country I'll kill 12 million of you

to propagate my ideas I will kill you and not only will I kill 12 million of you others. I'll wage a war that kills 3% of the entire world because before I live with you, I'll burn it all down. Naziism. That symbol has been reinforced by those people even after Hitler has been dead. This is what this means. Stay the fuck out. That's what it means, right? But the dynamic that we live in now is, well, I'm just asking questions. What does the swastika actually mean?

How many people actually died in the Holocaust? What actually is racism? Are women actually equals in this country? Do women actually deserve the right to vote? I'm just asking questions. Let's just have the conversation. The problem is, is that do you know what the conversation over the swastika was? For what?

Do you know we had the conversation? You know what the conversation was? What? It was World War II. We had the conversation. The conversation was World War II. Now, I don't get into the whole thing about the purity of war and all the people that is that. But the conversation was had.

The conversation was had. The conversation was started by the Nazis. The Nazis said, hey, we would like to have a talk with the rest of the world about why we should kill all of the Jewish people in the world, enslave all of the black people in the world and have our ideology go to every single continent and grow and grow and grow until we take over the world. They started that conversation. That conversation was had.

They lost. But the remnants of it survived. And now we're being asked to have it again. And the Trump administration is going along with it. Well, I don't think we're being asked to have the conversation. I think they're just making decisions. No, this is what, this is, according to the report,

swastikas will now be recognized as controversial symbols, which allow the commanders to investigate the circumstances of their use before display. Legitimately a conversation. Like legitimately, the, the commander goes, this is legitimately, I'm just asking questions, bro. Legitimately, hey, you have a swastika on your locker? Can we, can we talk about that? That's literally what they're doing. Yes, as it is written down.

No, I totally understand that's exactly what is being said. I guess my thought, my thought process is it is, as we said at the beginning, sanitizing, watering it down. It's allowing you to basically excuse it. There will be no conversation had. It's opening up the door to not make it be as hateful as it is. It's not quite that. So yes, as it's written, it is to question it, but the reality is it's to take a deal. down a notch or several from what it has always represented.

Right. It's to depower the image as a depower it. But all the guys is, the guys is correct. The guys is correct, which it goes back to the whole thing. The corporations are winning. Yeah, it goes back to the whole thing with Trump

and should Trump not try to run again or whatever he tries to do and stay in 2028, whoever comes after him, the question becomes, all right, so where does the, this administration, where does MAGA, where does Republicans stand when it comes to Jewish people?

It's a direct conflict. Direct conflict. They can't. They can't serve two masters. Well, they can't protect. The question to me is, and once again, we can talk about this. Like, what will the ADL say about this?

Exactly. Like, what will the ADL say about this? And what, what, Think about the position that the ADL will be in to have to, to seemingly have to admonish the administration for this, right? Yes. But at the same time, if you admonish the administration, you're admonishing the administration that made the decision on the Golan Heights and attacked Iran on behalf of Israel and continue to fund the state of Israel and move the embassy and do. So there's a tension here, and I don't really know how it gets worked out. Yeah, I would love to have someone come on and talk about this.

I mean, as we said, the new policy is set to take effect December 15th, so I wonder how much will be challenged prior to them. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips, Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

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40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order. Dot sweetgreen.com. Guys, we have to do it again. We have to talk about guys who said stuff about the WMBA. This time, it's Michael Porter Jr.

Rachel? All right. Let's get into it. Rather than Van and I just talk about it, because you know I would have very strong opinions. We decided to bring in somebody who is an icon, who is a legend. Angel McCodry, welcome to the show.

First time on higher learning. Glad to have you here. Thank you. I'm excited to be here, man. I'm a big fan of the show. Thank you. Five-time WNBA All-Star, two-time all-NBA first team,

four-time all WMBA second team, two-time WNBA scoring champ, two-time WNBA steals leader, two-time WNBA peak performer seven-time WMBA all-defensive team. Incredible. So that means whatever I say, I have the accolades to back it up a little bit.

Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yep, yep. A hundred percent. And a member of the D-9, an honorary member of Zeta Phi Beta. Yes, ma'am. Are you in a D-1?

I'm a Delta. I'm a Delta. I'm a Delta. Van thinks he knows everything about what we got going on. No, I did not say that. I never said that. I saw the smile. I'm just saying.

He's got friends in the D-9. I just went to Southern University in Baton Rouge where it's a big deal, but that's okay. Oh, that's a big deal. See? You might join one? No, I didn't join. It's not for me.

Not for me. But you love to be at our business. It's not for you, but you love it. It's funny. It's funny. Love it. Angel, we got to talk about Michael Porter, Jr. So Michael Porter Jr.

has had a lot to say as of late. I'm not a fan of it. I think he should just stop talking. He's been advised to stop talking. but most recently, he got on Lonzo Ball's podcast, Ball in the Family, and he had this to say. Donnie, can you play him? And I mean as respectfully as possible.

But ninth grade, Lonzo Ball and the WMBA is crazy. All right. So I would say after ninth grade, no. But before that, because look, in ninth grade, I'm over six feet. And I'm dunking. Like, I'm coming through to the life. No girl in the WMBA is doing that. I'm going back door, throw it up.

Like, I'm looking like Jordan out there. So I'm just saying. I mean this so respectfully. So great senior. Middle school day out. I give it to the WMBA. I'm going to go probably eighth grade. Because look, I have real experience doing this because I played,

my sisters went to University of Missouri and I was still a young dude. And they had me playing like on the scout team. And they had a few WMBA players on the team like Sophie Cunningham and a couple of others. And I think I was like in the seventh or eighth grade going. dumb. I'm talking about it. So I have real life experience. It's not physically fair. It's just a difference, man. And I wish this would stop in the conversation because it should be common sense. But like, it's just not. Angel, why are men so obsessed with this conversation?

First of all, congratulations. You was dominating against women in the eighth grade. What does he want? Does he want a cookie? You want a medal for that? Like, you know what I'm saying? I think the only thing that should be coming out of a man's mouth by women is uplifting her. That's the only thing. I think that if you are an eighth grader playing against elite

women in Missouri, by the way, I love that. I'm from a DMV, okay? It's a different story over there, but if you dominate against women in Missouri, that's fine. Listen, we need you guys. You guys, we have practice guys that come in. You guys help us be more athletic. You guys,

help us be quicker. You guys take great defense on us. We need you guys. That's why we have practice boys. So I'm just trying to figure out what do you want? I think the main thing we should be talking about, a woman, guess what? When I got to come and drop 40 and I'm in my fucking period, and I'm bleeding and my stomach hurts and my back hurts when y'all load managed off a headache. Not a know. Guess what? Let's talk about how awesome that is. Let's talk about how awesome it is that women and we have these babies, and we come back and still dominate sports. That stuff is not, yeah, you can dump.

A lot of us can't do that, but the awesome things we can do, let's highlight that. Let's highlight that. Guess what? We are wives. So it's not easy to take care of a husband and kids and come and dominate a sport. Let's talk about how strong and awesome that is. That's not enough talk we get praised for. You get what I'm saying?

Yep. And so if you notice real quick, the elites, Kobe don't say that kind of stuff about us. He never did. He only uplifted us and supported us. Braun don't talk that kind of stuff. Why the elites don't talk like that? Such a good point. That is actually kind of what I wanted to hit at.

I want to get at the whether or not he's just full of shit at another time. But why do you think that is? Why do you think that when you see people supporting WNBA games is always like, is Chris Paul, is LeBron James, is Carmelo Anthony. It is the players that really have submitted themselves as NBA greats that always have something amazing to say about the league. But then when you look at the players who are hypercritical of the league are always trying to talk about how much better they are than the players,

it is more guys like, I'm not going to act like Michael Porter Jr. can't play. But it's guys with kind of his profile. The answer to that, we have to study that. But I do know his data is incorrect, right? I don't think, I play against grown men all the time. And I beat a lot of grown men. There are witnesses out there. A eighth grader.

Do you think there are eighth graders, male eighth graders, that will be too much to handle for a WNBA player? I think there are some, but not all. Because let's keep real. Let's use common sense. People have different skill levels. Right. Can I beat a LeBron or Michael Porter Jr.:

drinking one-on-one? Probably not, right? I probably can hold my own, but I'm not going to probably beat them one-on-one, but the average athletic man, I can beat the one-on-on-on-on. So, say, an eighth-grader can beat a dumb-bain player right now? No, I don't think many can. Now, if you're an elite eighth-grader and you got the skills and you don't develop, and you're on that level, you probably can give us around for my money. But what do you want from that? You did it? You beat us? So what? There are bigger fish to fry. We're focused on our new bargaining agreement, us getting paid what we're worth. We're focused on how our league is growing and how we're getting, you know, people to watch our game.

It's so, it's just big a fish to fry out here then. I was worrying about that. So the A&Sha, Christenvon, I don't know why they do that. I don't know if it's, I think they should be focused on what do I want my legacy to be in the NBA? How can I get better right now as a player? But the focus is always, but we'll take it. We'll take it. If you feel like, you know, we're that good.

obviously we're that good if you got to continue to compare us. That means we can obviously play. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that you just said that I'm holding on to, which I think pours into it, is the league is growing. The league has more eyes on it. Superstar.

You've been superstars, right? But now there's more attention, sold out games. Like you said, you're working on a new CBA. More deals are come. More eyes on TV. All of that thing. And there's a lot of attention and conversation surrounding, not just the WNBA, but collegiate players as well. How much of this do you think has to do with male insecurity?

Because that's what it feels like to me. Let's say what it is. I mean, it feels like that because it's like that's what you all you guys can talk about on a pie, all these great stuff going on. Like, I'm going to tell you guys a little story. I was 10 years old and I was playing a little boy. He was 12. And I beat him one-on-one. his response to me was

well girls are not supposed to like basketball anyway that's what a 12 year old is taught because I just beat you in basketball that has been the mentality of some men for so long that let's keep these women over here let's make sure they're beneath us so we can continue to feel like we're this and that

but like you said the elites they don't have to prove that they respect us they respect our game you know LeBron probably could say yeah I can beat you in fifth grade you don't have to go there. Right. What's the point? It's still pointing that. So I do want to know

what is the point of him continuing to talk about the government. He's never said nothing positive about our women's game or anything. So what? Let me ask you a question. Do you think it's because we've seen lady players do this before?

Like, Aja Wilson was on the roommate's podcast. She said she could bring Josh Hart 101. Is it? She did say that. I mean, she said that She said it on the pocket. She said she could be Josh Hart 101. Now, whether or not Asia Wilson can beat Josh Hart

101, I don't even know if she was serious when she was saying it, but I also don't know what the deal is. I don't think that she could, but maybe she could. Is it useful in any way to compare the men's game to the women's game? Because I'll tell you how I feel about this. There is something here that, like,

it's two different games, but in the way, just like college football and NFL football are two different sports, it's almost two different sports. There's a different way to appreciate the women's game than there is to appreciate the men's game. And it seems that there is a method of thinking that thinks in order for the women of the WNBA or in many professional sports to be properly appreciated that you have got to compare

them to the men. and I think in the long where that only diminishes their game. I think you can compare us because like in the way, I would love when people tell me, yo, you're a female KD. Oh, you got, you got, you play like mellow. I would love that. Yeah, compare us. But don't compare us where it's like you're putting us down to compare us.

Because we didn't say, yo, God, can you make us that our bodies aren't as athletic as men? Can you make us so we don't jump us high? We didn't ask for that. This is who we are. This is how we're made. appreciate it. It is what it is. You get able to say. Yeah. Yeah. What if with all, like, outside of NBA, WNBA, you got Big Three, you have unrival.

What if there was, and do you think this would help or maybe even unify the conversation, if there was a pro-coed league? We did that before. Master Bhead did one. Oh, did he did it? Yeah. Why don't I think it was Co-edad? It was the, the, it was the, the, the, it was the, the, it was the, the, it was the, it was the, Yeah. Co-Ed, he was like some years ago.

Master P came into, Master P was in TMZ and he said to Harvey, he goes, I want you to help me get the league on TV and Harvey went, no. Right. When we played, because he did some test games, it worked.

I was bawling with the guys. It was some guys that weren't as good as me. It was some guys that was better than me. But the girls, when we play with the, shoot, I do the oop, the guy dunking and shit. Like, it can work. You know what I'm saying? It's fun.

So you would be down for a co-ed league You think that would be like a I mean, match to be already did it I like the league I think Glenn played in the league Yeah Like we'd be down for what But it has to be women who are elite

To that level Like you know what I mean What do you mean Keep up with the average man Keep up with the average man I actually don't think That there's Because this is the deal right

It was like I I think sometimes and I don't really know how to say what I'm saying. Men get caught up in the dominance over sport, like they own sports. Like sports is a man thing.

Sports is a thing that men are supposed to do. So they really crowd out women by comparisons to them. We all know crazy, if you look at Michael Porter Jr. And his size and his athleticism, it is not hard to think that in eighth grade he was too much for some ladies. not hard to believe that. But who fucking cares? I'm wondering why for Rhonda Rousey, I remember when

she was making her rise, for Ronda Rousey to be taken seriously as the dominant athlete that she was, why we had to say who could win in a fight between Ronda Rousey and Floyd Mayweather. What is the point? Like, to me, it's like, I'm watching dominant athletes do dominant athletes things, and I don't understand why the barometer has to be how well you would do against a man. I don't think I get it. Absolutely, because when we bust men's ass all the time, you don't hear us recording it. Now, I do, I have beat some high school elite boys, right?

Okay. Just to show, and I recorded and I posted it, just to show like, yo, if you want to go to the NBA, you got to work. I used to say I'm a 40-year-old woman. I had two knee injuries and I'm busting your ass. You got work to do. Because in your mind, you think that you're the best

because they have people in their corner always telling them they're the best and they can't compare. So if I come and play them, they'll see like, damn, this woman, even though she's an elite basketball woman, she's 40 years old, had two knee injuries, and she just beat me one-on-one, I got work to do. So, yes, sometimes they need to see that. Do you think it's okay for women to post that versus, like, if a man or a man commenting that or a woman to have that conversation versus men to have that conversation? I think you can do it. I think if Michael Porter Jr. did it.

It shows that, wow, I was really good at that age. I'm one of the elite, right? Because all eighth graders, you're not going to be the NBA player. Let's keep it real. It's just, it's not, your bodies aren't even fully developed. If you're dunking to April, your body is developed. You are, you, because I don't see many eighth graders jumping like that, right? As boys.

So that means you developed early. You want that elite status. You got it. Congratulations, because you're beating elite women. Now, it's another level you got to get to because you got to go play against that elite man. So to just pinpoint and focus on that as women, like, is that's the big deal. when Devon Bay players ain't there. That's not the goal, brother.

Do you think it means something specifically when you post videos of you beating the man? It means that you have work to do. The man has work to do. Yes, you have work to do. Because I told them, I should not beat you 101. I'm older now. I've had two knee injuries.

I used to be more athletic. I used to dunk the basketball. I cannot dump now. I'm 40, but I just beat you 101. Why is that? You got work to do. You're not as strong as you thought. You don't have the IQ you thought.

So I got to send y'all some of my posts. Yeah, I want to see the post. I got one. I got one. You know, we lowered the rim and the boys duck and they try to block your shot. So I said, let me try. They said, oh, we about to kick your ass. Okay.

I went, I came, pump. The back was done. They all went crazy. It's just like, so it just goes to show to that. You have work to do. You still got things. You got to work. You ain't all of that.

Okay. Last question for me. You got the good follow show over there with Roz. Yes. The homie. Tell us what you got going on over there, which y'all are talking about. Yeah, we're talking about all this new CBA,

the new Project B League, look like the girl's about to get paid finally. And it's some conflict. We're trying to see what the conflict with Project Bina B about to be since the project B about to pay. Is the Wendbeye about to pay? Yes.

You want to play me 101 over? No. He does. He does like to talk about his basketball skills. I can hoop. I can hoop. I didn't see it, though. Shout out to

Oh, man. No, man. Homegirl used to come in the gym. She worked at Team Z with me for a little while. Nisha, Nisha Butler. Shout out to, yeah, shout out to Nisha Butler. Nisha used to come in to the L.A. fitness up there in Hollywood.

And that's a real basketball player. Like, this is a real basketball player. And so you'd see dudes out there, like, getting frustrated. you're like going for fakes, going for footwork, boom, she passing it. She's actually, I think one-on-one is a poor barometer, and I'll tell you why. One-on-one is such, even between men, one-on-one is not a true barometer of basketball skill. It is legitimately about, like, there are players who can outskill me, but I'm big. So if we're in a one-on-one game, I'm going to three dribbles, boom, get you and lay it in.

But when you would put her in a game, five on five, she would be mentally playing with people. She'd be getting off the ball, faking to it, getting it back. Now you're a step slow, the shot is already up, it's going in. Like she would be playing the actual game of basketball. And if you cannot do that, you would be behind her.

So there are all kinds of considerations that go into this. But I do, I really do think that the one way to, insulate these conversations and call them out for how ridiculous they are, is to have a true appreciation of what women do in their sports and how fucking amazing they are, how amazing they are in their sports. And to leave men out of that conversation, like, do you know how many big-ass dudes that you play

that are just gigantic, but you can't do shit as a man? Like, as a man, we used to have a guy that would come in there, I would see him coming to gym, I'd be like, hey man, this dude cannot play basketball. He's six foot 10. He is gigantic. But he'll hurt you. Just as a man, sometimes you are overwhelmed physically. And so, like, that doesn't mean anything.

What means something is the combination of skills you have to be able to affect the game. And just to let you know, Angel, I'm shooting that bitch. So that bitch is going in. You're asking it. Ask around town. You got a hater. Well, so, no, I see how you got away with the one-on-one. You didn't want to answer.

You wiggled out of the one-on-one. But if it was five against five and you leading your team and angels leading hers, who's winning? Oh, she's busting my ass right now. I mean, she's busted my ass in one-on-one right now. My Achilles hurt. But my Achilles hurt. My killies hurt. But I'm telling you guys right now, like, I'm a big dude.

I'm about 6'4. When I was playing, I was about 235, 240 pounds. That's just a lot of, like, I'm big. It means you ain't guard nobody, Vaugh. No, that's not true. I was guarding. The only thing I never understood about that is I hated to get scored on more than I like to score.

I get that. That makes sense. Yeah, I just never understood dudes that, like, will go down there and do all that stuff and score the basketball and then come back down and just have somebody score. I'd be like, he's busting your ass. You don't care? Do you care?

Do you cook your chicken all the way through? Or is it raw in the middle? Like, do you care about the game? Anyway. Tell you this real quick, though, whenever I play five on five, I specifically say to the guys when I come to gym,

I say, y'all, we ain't playing agenda, let's play. Because guys are either play you really hard because they don't want you to do them in or be embarrassed, or they play like they don't care. So it don't look like. Yeah.

Bussing ass. Yeah, instead of just playing. So I always like, yo, play, let's play me like, I'm a dude. And I got to let him know. I say the same thing when I go to the gym. I want to see, I want to see, I want to see,

Rachel out there, man. I want to see Rachel out there. But do you have any, before we let you go, do you just have any, this is a narrative from Michael Porter, Jr. Do you have any thoughts on him? He talks about the Devon Bay a lot. I think that I would love to see him come practice with us once time.

Come practice with us. You know, I think he needs to see the ends and outs of how hard we do work and how much we do put our bodies through. because sometimes they just look through this lens from the outside and they don't really see the inside. And I think he came and spent the day with us, he would have a new appreciation. Huh. Well, put that out.

A call in. We like that. We'll put that out for him. We'll see, we'll see what he says about it. Sound like a play. Angel, I feel like I saw you going into the, did I see you going into the gym one time? Did I see you, you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a play ball at the LA Fitness, not the LA Fitness, not the LA Fitness, at the Equinox?

Yes. The Equinox. I saw you, I saw you, I saw you, you going into the Equinox one time over there on Sepulveda? Yeah. Yeah. That's a problem. She's good friends with Joy.

She's good friends with Joy. Joy, yeah, Joy Taylor. We know Joy can't play. I did not mention her for you to do that. We know Joy. I did not mention it. That's Joy to my people. That's my people.

We know Joy ain't got nothing for you though. Next time I see you, let's get some shots up, man. Let's get some shots up. Let's appreciate and love each other. Yeah. The level of skill that you're seeing at W.I.A. now is incredible. Incredible. They hope it's so good. We don't need to do this shit no more,

Nick. Come on, bro. Angel, tell people where they can see you. Like, Rachel talked about it. Tell people what you got going on. We appreciate you joining this. Yes, I appreciate you. I got a new movie out called Bygones. You can check it out on Prime. Follow me at Macauchy, my last name on social. Appreciate y'all for having me. No problem. Thank you, Angel. Thank you.

Thank you. Good to see you. My Achilles, sir. I have problems. How long you don't use that? I've problems with my Achilles. And by the way, can I tell you that my Achilles is, I don't know if I'm in my head now, but ever since you said that,

I feel like my Achilles hurt. I got to tell y'all something. I got to tell y'all what happened to the Achilles now. Shout out to everybody over at Crenshaw, the Crenshaw Y. I was playing at the Crenshaw Y. I was having a lot of fun. My game was coming back to me.

You can ask niggas over there. It was good. I was like, they were calling me Maurice Spates. Is it Maurice or is it Maris or is it Market Spate? I think it's market space. They'll call it. That's my game now. Do a little bit of everything.

And then I changed shoes. I have to say this. I have to say this. And this is going to piss people off. So I was wearing the Steph Curry shoes. Okay, I know Steph is not with underarmor anymore. I was wearing these shoes and I was these shoes, y'all can say what y'all want about them. These shoes were helping me.

Okay. They are like little fortresses for your feet. I'm moving around and having good. Nice. Because I'm hooping. Right. I'm back on the court. I'm like, I'm serious with it now. I was feeling good. My game was back. I was hitting the three. I was playing in the post. I was smacking shit. I was feeling good.

I went to the cobies. The cobies have changed. And I'm not trying to diss the people at Nike. Okay. I got the cobies and I'm looking at the shoes and I was like, there's not a lot of padding at the bottom. What's going to happen with these shoes? But they're the cobies though. And that's why I used to wear. So you thought you were going to get that old thing back in the cobies? I thought it was going to come back in the cobies. And I bought the Kobe low pro troves. And they set my Achilles on fire. And I'm not saying it's the good people over at Nike.

I'm saying I went to these shoes. And ever since I've worn these shoes, I wore these shoes for two sessions of basketball. I wore them at the Chris Y and I wore them at the LA Fitness. Two sessions of basketball. Okay. Nigger done. Okay.

It nigga done. My Achilles feel like you ever like get like a really good drumstick and the meat's coming right off the bone? That's my shit. But the results were negative. The results. That's positive. I don't even understand. The results don't, they, it's like the guys like the results don't show anything.

and I even tendinitis. Okay. They hurt. Well, just continue to maybe stay off them a bit. Maybe don't go so hard in the gym. I haven't been to the gym, but I've been doing my boxing on the... And that's great. Staying active.

Great washing. I'm rooting for you. Y'all can ask you what y'all want. I shoot that bitch as going in. Hey, if you know me, because Rachel been... If you know me and you know what I do, could you please? Because, like, I see some of y'all getting the, like, Vic, Dev, Arkie... like Ryan, like all of these guys, like you guys, I've been around to the Mark, like Sam, all of these guys, y'all know what the deal.

Jack, Jack McClintock, Jack, Jack, Jack, a bad motherfucker. Remember we had Jack on the pot? How could we ever forget Jack? Say what the fuck you want about Jack, Jack could score. I met Jack. I met Jack. Jack is scoring. Yeah, Jack's a great basketball player. Jack one time, we in the L.A.

Remember? We got to stay. What was that? What was the lesson? people need to do what they're good at. Jack. Jack, a good guy. I thought with Jack.

I didn't say he wasn't. I didn't say he wasn't. But he bombed on this show. He came on here. Jack is a good guy. By the way, that's another thing. See, so that gets me back to the point. I know that that's not the right form for Jack.

But you let him come on this show. This is a lesson for me. Jack is a great man. He's a great guy. I know that that's like the, and Jack, we're in the league. Jack, boom, Jack said, come in, nigga. I was like, oh, shit. I couldn't, that couldn't have been me.

I'd have kicked him. What was the term he coined that we, reading culture, literate, we're not going back to that. We're not, hey, we're not going back to that. He's a great basketball player from Miami. He's also a great person in the community. I have met him. He is so nice.

He's a fucking fantastic person. We're not doing that. But that was a moment. That was a higher learning moment. That's the top-tit moment. I didn't drop 40, 37, 38. Okay, Tim, man Wash, man

Somebody help me Because you just get old And then it's gone Like when I was Last before we leave So when I was Getting my game back I was like I'm gonna get up and grab around

I remember it used to be in your bio So I'm gonna get up and grab around So this is this regular time this recent time. Yeah. So I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna grab the rim because I know

because I was feeling you know, weights coming off good and feeling good. I feel my legs was feeling good because you're moving around the basketball game is coming back I'm gonna get up and grab the rim. My man Al

Albert Miles he 47 being there cooking. He also played professionally overseas and he's in great shape, right? So the one's down we'll grab a rim. I reached up and grab the rim.

I was able to successfully do that. but I grabbed it and then in grabbing the rim I wasn't in control because I wasn't high enough. I grabbed it with this, right? And so I kind of fell back a little bit and fell off balance, just trying to muster up all of everything I could

to grab the rim. It's almost like it's backwards because this is the same thing you do when you're 12. You start dunk, I started dunking at maybe like 14 or 15, but at 12, it was just trying to get up and grab the rim, right? And then, but when you're trying to do it and you can't quite do it, it just looks all crazy. And so I thought the gym was clear when I was doing this. And I grabbed the rim and I fall back and I'm all janky and shit like that. I'm like, God damn.

And I turn around. And it's this dude looking at me. And he's like, yo, old school, you straight? Take the caps off, do not stop learning. Wait, what did you say? You could say it again? I didn't say shit. And I'm Rachel and Lizzie.