Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - ‘Sinners,’ Awards Season, and Pearline’s Husband With Jayme Lawson

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

Van and Rachel discuss Logan Paul vs. Le’Veon Bell and Dak Prescott’s wedding being called off before reacting to the shooting at Rihanna’s home. Then, they discuss an update on the war in Iran before actress Jayme Lawson joins to talk representation in Hollywood, awards season, and of course, ’Sinners.’ (0:00) Intro (2:08) Logan Paul vs. Le’Veon Bell (10:23) Dak Prescott and prenups (24:25) The shooting at Rihanna’s home (28:14) War in Iran (41:07) A conversation about Joe Budden: rooting for U.S.? (55:51) Jayme Lawson joins the show Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Jayme Lawson Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. Social Producer: Bernard Moore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on is I, Van Lacey, Jr. And it is me, Rachel and Lindsay. We have Jamie Lawson on the show today, Perlene, from sinners, Bella Real from the Batman and the Penguin. He plays the mayoral candidate. She becomes the man. We talk about a whole bunch of stuff.

Great conversation. It's a great convo. I enjoyed it. I really enjoy it. I love when, like, our conference, it's not an interview. It's just a conversation. Like three people who just you know like I felt like I've known it for a long time Can I just say so smart obviously so talented and so beautiful like I couldn't stop I was telling them in the control room

I was like she's so beautiful. Wow interesting new horizons for you look so we we yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah getting to it rage yeah yeah stunting it out now um we talk about a lot of things regarding to creation. We talk about a lot of stuff at sinners and we talk about one battle after another. We also talk about Perlian's husband. Who we've named. We've named.

We've given him a name. We've given him a name. A whole prequel coming. And it's so interesting because I love that you said you think of a sequel because I truly always think of a prequel. For the few movies that I... Well, I said I think of a prequel. Oh, I thought you said a sequel.

No, no, no, no, no. You can't do a secret with Perlaine because she's dead. Well, but you... But, okay, I don't want to get in our conversation, but something you said was like the day after. You kept saying the day after, so that's why I thought sequel. Oh, no, no, I did say this before. I think about, I think about sequels often.

Okay. I think about what happens the day after to him, but then the prequel I thought about was, you know. I always think about, like, the stories before when they come in. And so it's just interesting how Van and I thought about it in different ways. And that plays out in the interview, our conversation as well. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. But first we got to start with boxing or like a version of it. Donnie? Yeah, this boxing isn't happening. it looks like. Logan Paul threw down a challenge claiming that no football player could beat him in a boxing match and he offered a million dollars to anybody willing to try. Levyon Bell, Braid Fahiko, and some others volunteered,

but like I said, it looks like it's not happening. Logan Paul tweeted, well, the boss is called. Turns out I'm too valuable of a WWE superstar to be fighting bums. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Leveon and Braden for their 15 minutes of relevancy. Now back to being broke. and retired. I can play video of him taking this phone call if y'all would like.

No, I saw the phone call. I saw it. Shout out to Braden. That's LSU. So that's LSU. That's an LSU legend right there. I think we're going to have him on tailgate if we can make that happen. Shout out to Derek Pimanski.

Everybody out there, if we can make that happen, we'll have him on tailgate. This was interesting to me. Why? Because of one person involved in this. Levion? Yeah. Okay. Let me tell you guys something real.

quick. Now, when Logan Paul was saying that he could get into a ring and beat a lot of NFL players fighting, he probably, boxing, he probably isn't wrong. Okay. If we're talking about boxing, if we're talking about fighting where, and I know that Logan wrestled, right, we talk about fighting where you're going to get your hands on Logan, where there's rage and all of that, stuff like that, then, you know, a lot of these guys in the NFL are going to be tough to deal with. You know, like you have all the technical ability

you want. There's a certain size, quickness, deadly use of hands, athleticism combination. And somebody like Aaron Donald, that's a lot. Even like trained fighters are going to tell you that. But if you're talking about boxing, somebody like Logan, and Logan hasn't gotten into it quite as much as Jake,

but he is very serious about it, then you're going to see somebody that's going to get in the ring and they might just use their feet for a while and let you gas a little bit if you don't box. They might, if they are experienced and they got a lot of rounds, they might get in, get out, they might do all kinds of things to you

in a boxing ring that you are not prepared for. If it's boxing, if it's a fight that's different, y'all on the street somewhere. If it's boxing. So a lot of these guys that were taking this million dollar challenge, some of them was going to get in a situation with Logan Paul and there was going to be in deep war a little bit.

I'm not saying that Logan Paul is a multiple-time amateur champion or anything like that. I said none of that, okay? I'm saying he has some boxing experience, and that's going to matter if you're in the ring boxing with somebody. Levion Bell is different. Agreed. Levyon Bell is actually somebody,

that has a style that has power Leveon Bell took to boxing very naturally and I know this because some of the gyms that I go to Leveon Bell will go into the gym If you guys ever watch the fight

between Leveon Bell and Adrian Peterson, what you're going to see is a dude who Adrian Peterson basically represents like the guy that is an NFL player with all of that athletic that can't really box while

Leveon Bell, or was growing as a boxer, while Leveon Bell represents somebody that took to the sport naturally, he knocked Adrian Pearson out. Very much so. If Logan would have stepped into the ring with Leveon Bell, I think part of him knows that Leveon Bell would have fucked him up.

I agree. I agree. And we saw that we heard the phone call, right? And then Leveon gets on X and says that he had somebody call in and acts like he can't make this happen anymore. I agree. He basically calls, he goes on to say he calls Logan out and says he fake that phone call. When I heard it, I felt the same thing.

So based on what you're saying, you think that was a fake phone call? I don't know whether or not the phone call was fake or not. But basically, he wanted to back out when Lady-on stepped up to the- I don't think that there's any reason for Logan Paul to actually get in the ring and fight. at Leveon Bell. Well, this is why... I think he realized that after he got in there talking shit

and then Levee and Bell was like, let's go. Well, I think the reason I agree with what Leveon is saying here is because they went back and forth on social media for a bit of trying to get the terms of this fight. And then when they figured it out,

so it had been going on, people were privy to it. They were watching it, go back and forth saying it wasn't going to happen, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when Levyon agreed, he goes, agreed, send the contract and then immediately Logan Paul gets this phone call from this person from the WWE saying,

hey, it would be in your best interest as an asset to our organization, not to participate in this. I feel like if the WWE really was serious about that, they would have nipped it in the bud from the beginning. To me, it just seems very convenient that once Levi-on was like, all right, let's do it, all of a sudden now you can't. I agree with you. I don't know as much, not even close to what you know in boxing, but like looking at them matching up, looking at the experience that Logan has. He hasn't boxed in a while.

Faces versus Levion, who's like really building his career, at least what I'm reading. Yeah, I think Logan didn't want it. If you look at Levian Bell Box, once again, Leveon got a style. But look, he boxes almost exactly like he were running the league. Like he's patient.

he sits back and he waits like there's some technique and stuff like that that still needs to come around but like he's got an actual style and when Logan was doing what he was doing I give a million dollars that was just a white boy shit

that's just like I'll get out there and call everybody out and see who the fuck and like generate but then a lot of people was like we want to do that like it's a very Paul thing to do yeah like we we with that a million dollars is like we with that

and then he didn't want to do it. Now, once again, Logan Paul, great athlete. I'm not even going to hate on him. Logan Paul is a great athlete. So a lot of these guys that were stepping up and was like, I'll get in there and I fight you for the million dollars,

they was going to walk in the ring and find that you've got to know a little bit of what you're doing to be able to stand in there with him. But Leveon Bell don't know what he's doing. And I really, I was interested in seeing that fight. I was like, oh shit. but I'm interested in seeing that fight. I don't think Jake wanted it.

Excuse me. I don't think Logan wanted it. All right. Jake might want it. This might be a way for Lavion to get a fight with Jake. Does Lavion want to fight with Jake? I think that he does. I think I saw him say that he wanted to fight with Jake Paul.

And Jake said no? The Jake Paul fight, Jake Paul doesn't fight guys like Livion Bell. He fights older or undersized. Is that what you're saying? He's building his resume. And look, I could get on him about building his resume with guys like that. But, you know, if you go back and look at a lot of fighters in their first 10 or 15 fights

and see who they was fighting when they just building a bring experience, then you'd see a lot of names that, like, shouldn't, you feel like they shouldn't have been fighting them. But I will say those guys when they were doing that, sometimes they fight for like $1,000, $2,000. They like literally just trying to get rounds in. These fights are different because they're $100 million fights. But he fought Anthony Joshua, you know, he got sparked. The Leveon Bell fight would be an interesting fight for him if he came back and if you're into watching Logan Paul fight, not as a storyline. You mean Jake?

Well, Jake Paul fight, yeah. I'm getting them mixed up. If you're into watching them fight, it's kind of like, you know, maybe that'll make that happen now. All right. The Cowboys aren't in a new. news. Cowboy. Nah, this is the quarterback. Johnny? It's the quarterback. This is the whole team.

Yeah, Dak Prescott and his fiance, Sarah Jane Ramos, have officially called off their wedding, which was supposed to take place next month. And this is reportedly happening after tensions broke out during their joint bachelor and bachelorette parties in the Bahamas following a blow-up argument. Reports say that Ramos called off the wedding. What could have happened? Well, they're saying, I mean, I think the fact that it happened on a bachelor, bachelorette party, people are insinuating certain things. But the main story I'm seeing come out is that it was a contract dispute. He wants her to sign a pre-up and either, I don't know if she doesn't want to sign one at all or she doesn't like the terms that are being presented to her. But apparently they've been Rocky, it's being reported, they've been rocky leading up to this. I don't know if that's based off the pre-nup. We know that. We know that. So they have a two-year-old and a 10-month-year-old. And we know that...

10-month-year-old. 10-month baby, 10-month baby, months baby. Months baby. And we know that he signed a contract in 2024, over $240 million, something like that, over four years. So, I mean, I could see that obviously was signed while they were together. So maybe that change, I don't know.

I don't know. I could see it being the case. All I have to say is, if that is true, if it is because of that a prenuptial agreement and you can't get that signed. Yep, got to let it go. I'm sorry. Okay, let me ask you this.

How do you feel about this? Because a lot of ladies that I talk to, they don't want to sign the prenuptial agreement. They think that the prenuptial agreement sets terms. If you're with a guy as rich as that, you'd sign it. Absolutely, I would sign one. Because I get it.

Now, is this because of the experience that you had? No, I wanted to, I wanted a pre-nup before, and he didn't. And I did not want it to come down to as a woman and just, you know, again, I'm going to write about all this, but like what my mindset at that moment was, I didn't want to say my marriage did not work because I didn't have a pre-num. Now, I did not have what I have now at the time of the marriage, but I believed in myself that I would get it, but I still was like, I don't want to say this marriage. did not happen because of a pre-up.

That was just me. But I believe in pre-ups. I wanted one. I put that up for conversation. I think everybody should have a pre-nup, whether you don't have as much when you get married, because you just never know what's going to happen. That's definitely been my case.

Or whether you do. You should have it. You should look at it as like estate planning. Like you would get insurance on a car, on your house, any of that. I think that it is all a part of planning for your future with kids, with assets, with each other. you just don't know.

And I don't think it means that you're planning for anything. Bad to happen. I just think it means you're being smart about two people entering together. I mean, marriage is a contract, right? So, like, I just don't understand why it's got to be so taboo.

And if he signed, if he just signed four years, $240 million while they're together, like, he needs to protect that. Now, we don't know if it's a pre-nup, but let's just say for argument's sake it is. You don't know what the terms of it are. could be like, you've no idea.

I'm sure it's like you're not going to, I would doubt it says we break up, you get nothing. No, they have kids together. But yeah, like, she should sign a pre-up. Do you understand why women are hesitant to do this? No. Of course I can see why somebody wouldn't want to. I'm asking you for real.

What's the argument on the other side? Like I have, I'm worth $500 million and you're coming to the table with whatever. Why is it wrong for me to ask to protect some of that? Why, what if you get married? I just don't understand why, why, what's the other side of it? You argue the other side of it. Oh, you want me to be the woman? It could go both ways.

Remember, in my case, it would have been a man. Okay. So I guess if I was Okay a couple of things Number one, what you're saying is right By the way, I don't care about no pre-nup shit Okay, I don't give a fuck But the what I would

What I understand women to be saying Is that number one, it puts a cloud of negativity Around the relationship That's what they say I know They say that you're planning for the end of the relationship number two, a lot of times if you are negotiating a pre-up, I heard somebody say this, that you cannot negotiate a pre-up in good faith.

Because when you're negotiating the pre-up, most of the time there is an economic difference between the two people. So it starts the marriage with one person telling the other person, this is what you are entitled to. And that is kind of for people in certain situations. Once again, Van Lathen Jr. doesn't care about any pre-ups. Sign the pre-up. Don't sign the pre-up. It's fine to me. But what I've heard people say is that that already sets a power dynamic in the marriage. And then also, because it exists that way, you rarely get a fair one. You don't get a fair one because what it basically is is one telling the other person like what it is that they're entitled to. Now, in a situation where you are

you up a billion dollars and then you go to Ibiza and you go, oh look, I see a hot little dang. Do you bring this thing back? Y'all together for six months or a year and you get married, cool. This is slightly different being that there are two kids involved and these kids have been around for a little while. So it's like I'm not in any way,

hey, DAC is doing the smart thing here. But the argument on the other side is not just about what it does to the relationship emotionally. It's about the power dynamic that's sometimes involved when these prenups are getting negotiated and whether or not

that can actually be fair in a way. So what I would say to that is there's already a power dynamic that's set if there's that much of an economic disparity between the two people before, whether you sign that pre-up or not, right? Not, but the marriage, Van is allowed one interruption. But the marriage actually is supposed to be the thing

that alleviates that because the marriage is supposed to make everything equal. And so the power dynamic, theoretically, is supposed to dissolve. Because once you enter into a marriage with someone, then it's 50-50. And that 50-50 thing is supposed to be the thing that keeps, okay, no. Well, no, I mean, it's not 50-50. Well, first off, everything you had before is yours, right? That's separate property.

So it's what you start making in the marriage. You know that. Of course. So if I come in with a billion and you come in with a million, like, that's all protected before. The only reason I shook my head at 50-50 is, yes, I guess technically you split it. I just was sorry, I was thinking of it from illegal this while I was shaking my head. Because, yeah, 50-50 here in California, not in a state that's not community property.

It's not split 50-50. That's not how it goes. But, yeah, I just, I don't know. I just think it's when people say you're planning for something, I think that that's kind of like a, I don't want to say a lazy argument, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. I think that fair is particular to the person. The person who has less money is never going to think probably that it's fair. But because they're, you know, at a disadvantage, I guess you could say when it comes to that. But I don't know. I don't know. It's, I just believe in pre-num. I'm sorry.

Yeah. For that, because you just don't, and people are going to say it's because of what I went through. Well, it is. But I believed in them before. Right. Oh, but it could be like lawyer rage as well. Maybe.

And when friends would ask me, I would say that you do it because you really don't know what's, that's why I keep calling it insurance. It's like, you don't, when you buy a house, you don't know what could happen. You hope nothing ever happens to the house. No fire, no flood. Nothing. Like an earthquake. here in California, but you get insurance to protect yourself in case something happens.

Why can't we look at that with a marriage? You're not, of course, you want to spend the rest of your life with this person, but something could happen. Something could change the dynamic. Something could be off with you, with her, whatever. You just don't, or him, you just don't know. So why not protect that? Because by the time you get to, I want to separate a divorce,

you want to do that as quickly and as seamless as possible and not have to fight it out. So to me, that's how I look at it. That's how I would encourage people to. So once again, I don't care about pre-ups or anything like that. Get a pre-up. Protect yourself. Don't get a pre-nup. Roll the dice.

That was just us talking about it. I don't care about it at all. As a matter of fact, if I was going about what I saw at TMZ, I'll tell you all the high job money. because there's what I saw was people get there's never a more like we cover here on higher learning and you guys see it all of this stuff that comes out in like a divorce proceeding when somebody is about to get divorced and they put stuff in a divorce proceeding as to why they're getting divorced these documents were crazy. Z. One of the most sobering things that I saw during my time at TMZ was everybody talks about the celebrity deaths and everybody talks about, you know, going to people's public personal lives and all that. So that's one thing. But what I saw more than anything was the arc of a

celebrity relationship and it was just destructive, like on a human level, meaning you see two people when they first start dating. Like they're seen together. Somebody. there's a rumor that they've been seen together. Okay, then they go public. They go public and now they're on a red carpet somewhere. And they're public. All right, everybody's so happy. Then after they're public, now we see them do a cute interview together somewhere.

One person interviews the other person and the relationship is happening, blah, blah, blah. Everything's cool. Everyone likes it. They're TikTok and Instagram and doing all of that stuff. Then it gets to a point to where the first rumors that something's wrong happens. and those rumors first if you work at TMZ don't come from outside of the office they come from inside of the office you get like a camera guy like a paparazzi that tells you hey I saw these two people and they were yelling at each other then you see the corresponding pictures from that the

pictures start to go then at first they deny it they deny that there's something wrong for a little while they squash it they come out together and they do something together they get you guys back on track they do the cute interview thing again you see them again oh everything's cool then they go silent for about five months and they file for divorce they go silent

so they come back hey we're okay everything's fine look we're the same happy couple that you guys remember then nothing you don't see them for about five months then somebody files for divorce man when that divorce filing happens

the lawyers start jockeying for position inside of the office. I remember that. Then the worst shit ever starts to come out. I can't live with him anymore because he used to like to sharpen the samurai sword in front of the kids while doing cocaine off the samurai sword. I can't live with her anymore because she likes to go to eyes wide shut parties and wear a bathamette head and have sex with random guys. And you're like, God damn, you're reading this shit.

then when the divorce is final, they're co-parenting together and then the thing comes, the story becomes, are they going to get back together? That's not how mine went. The whole arc of a celebrity relationship was just like,

as a person, as like a dude you would look at it. Be like, God damn, it's crazy. Yeah, because what happens with celebrities is, or when it's public, people are trying to win in favor in the court of public opinion, so they're just trying to make the other person look so, like you don't want to root for them, so unlikable. And a lot of times there's lies or like

exaggerations of the truth. Because I can understand when stuff comes out and it's like, oh, they clearly see, didn't see eye to eye or they had a different interpretation of that. But sometimes it's just outright. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. Lies. Just to win favor. Rihanna's Beverly Hills home was the target of a shooting yesterday on Sunday

this is according to the LA Times a woman allegedly fired several shots at the house from her white Tesla across from the property's gate they're also reporting that she was at home at the time the suspect has been arrested she is 35 year old Ivana Lissette Ortiz and she's been booked for attempted murder

with Bill said at over $10 million she's scary stuff Yeah. What, what, what, what, uh, what, uh, what's going on? I, I don't even like, this is terrifying. Just, it, for so many reasons, obviously shooting targeted, being targeted. She was at home, you know, she's got young kids who other people are around the house, whether they work there. I don't know, maybe visiting her, living with her.

Just this, like, all around terrifying. Then just the fact that this person knows where you live. it just clearly has probably been watching you go in and out of the property, watching the property for a while, preparing however she wanted to, I don't know, for this to go down. It's just all around scary. Yeah, I'm glad, and I will say I'm glad that no one was hurt in this. I'm glad that they found the suspect. I'm glad she's been arrested.

And I hope that she stays locked up. Um, yes. So there are videos that are coming out now where this person seems, have you seen some of these videos? Mm-mm. Until we know more, we don't really want to play the videos and indicate that this is directly, this is definitely the person that's been arrested. To we know more.

All right, too, no more. But this is frightening. Yeah. Someone stood outside of Rihanna's home and fired into the home with the AR-15. An AR-15. And just how like easily, it feels like they were just easily able to do it in such an easy way. Like it just seems so accessible, whether getting the gun, finding the location, and then, you know, making that the target. It just, I don't know, it's one of my worst nightmares.

There's not really much to say on this besides the fact that there are a lot of people. We do have a lot of conversations about celebrities in their lifestyles, why they choose to be private, why they move away, why they withdraw, why they don't give as much to quote, quote, fans as they people. people expect them to sometimes. But I just tell you, like, in a situation like this, Rihanna and her openness is a part of why people like her. It's part about why people love her. They love her because she seems real. She seems accessible.

She seems like somebody. If you say, hey, Riri stop and take a picture, and she'll do that. An incident like this changes somebody fundamentally forever. Just changes the way they view the entire thing. So, man, prayers to Rihanna and her family. And my God, the story just kept getting worse as it rolled out. It was like someone shot at her house.

She was inside. She was inside. They got the person. She is a mother, likely children inside of this house. One of the bullets actually gets to the wall, you know, and depending on the type of weapon this is, you don't know what kind of power it has, if that wall had been glass or whatever,

the story could just be terrible. So just absolutely disgusting. Absolutely disgusting stuff. More disgusting stuff. Before we get to our interview with Jamie, we have to check in on Iran and like what's going on. Rachel, have you been keeping up? Yeah.

I mean, how can you not? Yeah. I mean, and it just seems to, I will say, it just seems to get worse and worse and worse, and it feels like more confusing. and it just feels like as the days go on, more questions keep coming up than answers because it doesn't seem like we're getting anything definitive

from the administration. And when they do speak, they just speak in terms of, okay, like right now, you know, they're like, oh, you know, unconditional surrender. And then it's like, well, what does that mean? And then they can't even really define it. Define it's a bunch of word salad.

And it's like, this is, people are dying. And, you know, people are being impacted in multiple countries and there literally doesn't seem to be a plan of what we're going to do next. And to be honest, when you think of like, okay, well, what's the exit strategy or the end strategy here? It's definitely not unconditional surrender. And when you try to say, okay, well, it could be this,

it could be this, it could be this. It just seems like every option is so detrimental and disastrous. And then it makes you go back to the very beginning of why we are even doing this and how this, like, what were we doing? getting involved in this in the first place. I mean, I know we've kind of talked about that already, but I'm just saying the fact that we still have these questions, it makes me go back to the very first question that we had when we started talking about this when Operation Epic Fury started anyway.

And it seems like the White House is just playing in our face even more so on social media as they're putting up games and football plays, showing them bombing different places, which is even more insensitive when the reporting coming out is that it was a U.S. airstrike that struck that elementary school where 175 people, mostly children, lost their lives. And we're over here putting up animations of us bombing things. It's just, this is all bad. Yeah, it is all bad.

So more and more, I'm convinced that this is the war that will lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Wow. More and more I'm starting to feel that way. Well, expand on that. But like that's dark. I don't want to feel that way. I understand why you could say something like that,

but you just said it as a mic drop and almost like we're about to go on to the next subject. Can you please expand? Can you please say something else? It's a war that it seems like everybody wants. Who's everybody? So the Republicans want the war because, Donald Trump wants a war. The Democrats can't really

rebuke the war in as direct terms as they should. They have to do a whole, they have to give so many platitudes when they rebuke the war. They have to say, hey, we realize that I told us a terrible guy and Iran's a bad place, but, but, but, but, which doesn't send a direct signal to the American people

about why this war is terrible and destabilizing, right? And it also seems like there's a part of the Democratic Party when we just talk about like different American institutions that wants the war because the war is bad politically for President Trump. So because the war is bad politically, oil prices are going to go up. American servicemen are going to die. It echoes in a lot of people's minds. Iraq, Afghanistan, even going further back,

maybe some places like Vietnam, all of that stuff, and that those type of quagmires are the things that take presidencies down. So there are a lot of people who want it for that situation. They can't be pure on it because they don't know what they want to say. They can't come out and say, hey, this is a war of choice that the president didn't ask Congress for,

didn't make the case to the American people for. Plus, this war is hegemonic in terms of regional domination. So they can't really be against it as much as they should, which means that that, in my opinion, is tacit approval for it. To me, the way I look at that is that when something is a no, you don't kind of try to make it a yes. It's a no, but let me tell you why in the grand scheme of things it might not be that bad. Guys, I get what you guys are saying.

Geopolitics is complicated, right? It's complicated. But there are many things about this that are destabilizing. And I just want everybody to understand that once the bombs start falling, it only takes one thing to go wrong to where you're in a lot of fucking trouble. A lot of trouble. The reason why you avoid a fight, and we're going to talk about something that they were talking about

on the Joe Button podcast I thought it was a fantastic conversation. The reason why you avoid a fight if you can is because you never know where it's going to go. I want people to just think with their rational brains. How many times

I know a guy? I'm going to talk about the guy that I know. I know a guy in Baton Rouge, amazing, sweet, beautiful man. Beautiful friend of mine, right? Got into it with a police officer.

this is like 2005, 2006, got into it with a police officer. As him and the police officer are going back and forth, somebody walks out of an auto zone and kills him because they see him going back and forth with a police officer. Now, his brother was very close brother to me. Crazy hands with somebody that nobody in parts of Baton Rouge really wanted to fuck around with.

The thing is, once it gets to that point, the unknown becomes possible. And the unknown here is somebody else getting involved. The unknown here is some uranium making its way out of Iran into a suitcase or the unknown here is some of the worst type of shit. The reason why I think that this has the chance to be the destabilizing war of our times, the war that kind of takes us to the brink, is not just because of the way this one is being prosecuted.

It's because of where this falls in the Trumpian vision of the world. This war is coming after Venezuela and before Cuba, what Lindsey Graham and a lot of guys are talking about. Now, I want people to understand something. The last time one guy decided he. he was going to go around to different places and take these places over and, you know, out their governments using force.

The world dealt with a little bit of that. And then they went, hey, no, you can't do that. Situations are totally different, right? Situations are totally different. And I get that. But what I'm saying is that the Trump administration seems to be making good on designs that they had on Greenland or Canada. Now if you're the Canadians, you got to wonder whether or not he's playing.

If you're, if you're, you know, Denmark or if you're the people on the island of Greenland, you have to be wondering whether or not American boots and bombs are coming to take over what it is that you are doing. I'll say again, geopolitically, this is a different situation that's going on in Iran. But the one thing that is consistent in all of these situations is American aggression that is based on choice and worldview. Not based on imminent threat to American interests here at home. Not based on that. Choice and worldview.

When you go into warfare for choice and because of the way that, you view the world, your version of it, those are wars of conquest. And I'm just sorry, I'm sorry, like the Iranians right now, their Pope was killed. So there's a part of them. I don't know how large of a part that is going to fight to the last saber because of what that means, right? there's there's parts of this that like you know what happens if the al-ascomascus hit like what happens oops accident coming from the Israelis now there are other people that are going to be like arcades

down we want to build the third temple now it's up now it's now it's it's up so what I'm saying is I think that we have a president that is definitely definitely in my mind suffering from a deep, deep, deep mental decline. A deep mental decline. And you have people that are around him that are too scared to rein him in. And I don't think it's the other way. I don't think that it's Miller and Netanyahu and the rest of them that are influencing Trump. Obviously Netanyahu has a great deal of sway with Trump.

Yeah, you don't think that's going on there. I think that he does. But I think that Donald Trump looks at the world. in a flippant way. He thinks the United States is a condominium high rise. He thinks that the United States is a golf course and that you can tear it up a little bit and just regro-that is the way he's running the country.

Yes, he moves without consequence. But to say, I would not attribute it to a mental decline. I'm not even going to give him that. That's almost a bit of an excuse. Oh, Rachel, come on, man. I think that that's who he is as a person. I understand, but I don't mean it in the way to give him an excuse. I know you're not giving him excuse.

I'm saying that's why I could not say it that way. Right. I think the president has early on said dementia. Okay. I think he's a narcissist and he totally views the world in a flippant way. He sees himself above it all. And I think he lives in a place of no consequence and he always has. And now he and I think his ego is hurt from.

not winning in 2020 and it's like total destruction now like I think he's just doing whatever the fuck he wants to do right okay fair enough I grant you that what I'm saying is in this particular case where I think that you have a leader that has all of those

okay what would happen how about this let me let me be clear what would happen if in fact the president or any leader or someone with that type of disorder he's narcissists, right? If they were mentally impaired

or like what would happen? They would lose their sense of self-preservation. Like these decisions would become decisions that would be connected directly to your base instincts. The cognitive part of your brain that says, hey, you shouldn't do that because on the other side of it,

something terrible could happen. That part will go away. way and you would all be in the part of your brain that just said, hey, I think this is a good idea. Nobody around me is going to stop me. Also, there are people who are trying to make me think that this is a good idea. Let's go. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to give Donald Trump an excuse for what it is that he's doing by saying that Donald Trump is mentally impaired. What I am saying is that in this particular situation, some of this stuff to me is so egregious and it's getting to the point to where

distracted from the Epsine files, cool. Like Netanyahu and the Israel lobby, cool. But I'm getting to a point to where I'm like, there's literally nobody who thinks that this is a bad idea that exists inside of the MAGA intelligentsia. And that is chilling. Like, that's chilling. Like, we have this conversation if it goes wrong.

What if it goes right? actually you know what let's play this let's play what was on the the Joe Button podcast the whole thing well let's play let's play

a little bit of it we got the gist of it so we can we can talk about it if my man goes out and starts a fight at the club and I don't agree with why he started to fight I still got a ride you can't sit at the bar

while a man he's fighting not only do I got a ride I hope my man wins. Right. Right. My question to you is, do you want us to win this war? Us as in America.

We don't have to agree with why it started or how it got here. But once it's in the thick of it, aren't you or shouldn't you be rooting for a win? Yeah, what the hell? No. Oh, shit. Not me.

No, no, I don't root for a win. what I root for because I know I know what a win would mean. What would it? A win because there's a way that when as United States, first of all,

even the word we is doing very particular work in that sentence, right? Because I think about myself in the context of a global community as well. I don't necessarily think of myself just as a citizen of the United States, although I am. But when a lot of us

who are even disconnected from the the issue say we want to win. When you're thinking about the safety of the troops, the stability of our lives, all that stuff. I want that. But I don't want that to come at the expense of the stability and safety and dignity and the rights of other people. So as I watch this happen,

I don't want a win any more than if your homie's fighting. The first thing you want, what you're room for is a resolution. You'd love to come in there, cool this shit down, but you know, let's get out of here. Of course, yes. That's plan A. Yes.

You know what I mean? And at every moment, you're hoping, if you're sane, and as you're older and mature, you're hoping. Cooler heads could prevail. At some point, even if punches get thrown. You don't want to now take it outside. You don't want to go to the trunk. But in this, we outside already.

Right. We outside. I don't want a loss because of what losses me. Right. And if we're talking about Iran in particular, there are consequences to an Iran, quote, unquote, when. What I'd like to see in the purpose of having, an international community and international bodies like the United Nations, for example,

is to have people who can intervene to create some kind of resolution where you don't even have to have winners and losers because the very framework of winners and losers requires a lot of people to die, people's land to get annexed or taken. So essentially what they're going back and forth, I'm interested in what you think about this. The framework there, and that's a fantastic conversation. The framework there is that this war is probably wrong

but once we're in the war we have to A be loyal to our friends to a degree or friends in this situation being Israel and then B also go full in with support of America

because it's wartime. What do you think? That was Joe's stance. Yeah, Mark was arguing back and forth. Mark was saying, and I am more on the Mark side of it because, and it's something that they talk about and you touched on before we played that clip is the unknown is scarier. The unknown, like the way we went into this war, the way that there is no answer to any question of what are we doing, what's the plan, what's the exit strategy, when does it end, what, like,

what happens to Iran, what happens with, like, there's no strategy behind it. And because there is no strategy, the possibilities of the unknown are limitless. So to me, why would we continue and stay there without any kind of plan? That's madness. So to say, well, I'm being loyal to my friend. Now my, you know, the example that Joe gives, and it's like, now my friend is in it. So, you know, like, I got to go in there and help my friend. How do you help him when you don't even know what he's doing?

Like, it's just there's, it's only going to get worse, in my opinion, because it's like you're just running around and making a different decision every single day. It's like you wake up and it's just something new. Okay, well, today we're going to do this. Okay, today we're going to do this. The reports that are coming out that were at least getting were privy to seem to be terrifying. And the way that, oh, they torpedoed this submarine. Oh, this submarine wasn't even involved.

It was coming from something else. An elementary school where people are dying. We don't even know what kind of nuclear, what the nuclear situation is there, what the resources are in the building. We don't know. So how can you continue a fight blind? That's what this feels like we are fighting blind.

Well, I don't think the resources there from a nuclear standpoint are very robust. Even worse. Even worse. It goes even more to the, the imminent threat that we are the reasons that you would start that, even worse. Yes. Yeah.

So, okay. So let me tell you why I loved that conversation so much. I loved it, number one, because it takes this geopolitical issue and then puts it in a framework that people can understand. Yeah. Because like a lot of people are going to be like, yeah, you know what? If I got, we all been there. You got a homeboy, this niggas crazy.

Right? We all been there. We got a homeboy this niggas crazy. He is your homeboy. homeboy though. So when you go out, you realize that he's with you,

he's got your back, you might get into some shit over him. That's cool. You know what? The only interesting, the interesting thing for me is that growing up for me was realizing that I had to break away from dude.

That's what it was for me. Because what I realized was if I'm stepping out into a club or a bar or a lounge, hookah, strip club, basketball game. If I'm going to hoop with someone who's going to get me into a situation

more likely than not and shows no care about my safety with what they do, then my loyalty is becoming dangerous to my family. My loyalty is becoming dangerous to the people that, love me because now I'm put myself in a position where I have to ride for someone who doesn't

think about how they make me unsafe. They just think about what they want and what they got to get off and what they need. And those were legitimately, particularly in Baton Rouge, the guys that at a point you had to get from around them because they were never going to stop. Yeah. Like they were never going to stop whatever it was that was going on. You have to love them from afar. You have to have conversations like, hey, bro, we're going out to have a good time.

whatever's going on with you, we're not doing that tonight. Right? Don't do that. Don't get into it like that because you do love them. You do care about them. So I just thought that framework of having that conversation was really interesting because a lot of people, a lot of brothers that I know are going to be like, yeah, man, like, you know, my dude a little crazy, but if it's up is up,

the question is how long are you going to make, how long are you going to let him make you crazy? Right, right. Him being crazy is one thing, but how long are you going to let him make you into exactly what he is. Right, right. Till you start putting that over yourself. There was an interesting also part I thought about in that conversation was when Mark's talking and he was like, well, originally you're going to try to stop it, right?

Because you don't know where it's going to go. That's something that did not happen in this situation. And to your point of when you said it seems like everybody wants this war and you talked about how the Republicans, MAGA, they're not doing anything. thing. The Democrats, they're saying yes, but it goes back to that point that Mark is making is originally you try to stop it because you don't know where it's going to go, right? Like, you don't want it to go there. So you try, but if it happens, then that's where Joe's thing comes in. So the option of stopping it just was never even a thing, it feels like, with the United

States. One, yes, you can talk about because he didn't ask Congress about what about going into Iran. He just did it. And then Congress has had an opportunity to vote on a war powers resolution. They didn't stop it. And so the whole in between the other option that could have happened

that could have been the best way to go about this wasn't even afforded to us. And then when it was on the back end, they said nah. Well, I mean, we're not even getting a straight story on the impetus for it in the first place. Rubio said that they got in a tell

that Israel is going to go no matter what. And so that if Israel is going to go no matter what, we might as well go. So because the blowback's going to be on us too, we might as well help them or whatever, whatever. And some of the other stuff was like, no. Trump said a red line that said if Iran was too brutal to protesters that he would fuck them up.

And this is that. There are other people that are now recycling the idea that Iran was a half hour away from being able to put a nuclear warhead on a ballistic missile and hit a major American city. Like there's not even a robust laundering of this in a clear and concise way.

This is becoming a war where even though we're talking about people who want the war, the Saudi Arabians want the war. It was reporting that NBS and the Saudi Arabians behind the scenes were lobbying the Americans to get involved in this. Now what we see is a reason. conflict that is escalating because the Iranians are hitting bases that are in the

make up the Gulf Coast countries they said that they're going to stop doing that maybe that's because it that looks looks bad or feels bad or it is eroding solidarity throughout the Muslim world that they might have there are different versions of obviously we know here the audience there's Shia Muslim Islam and there's Sunni Islam. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's going on here. And there's a lot of people who believe that the Abraham Accord countries would rather Israel and the United States take out Iran anyway. But now we have a spreading regional war that threatens to destabilize everything. And what seems to be happening now is a lot of cheerleading, both loud and quiet.

Last thing I'll say about it, and this is something that Joe and Mark talked about that I thought was interesting too, is like, when you are in a war or a conflict, do you root for America to win? Yeah, that was interesting. I want everyone to think about that question. That is a fundamental question. Do you rule for America to win? Right? Because we're in the conflict now. Isn't it better if America wins?

I want everybody to think about that. Yeah. Like, think about it. That's not an easy question to answer. What is for me? Is it? I think the most important thing to me is not about any one country, even my country, winning or losing. It's about whether or not people are free of domination.

And so by that metric, I think what I want is a humanist experience of cooperation. And I don't want to be. with the bullies. I want to be able to be in a country where we can be, hey, we don't bully people. And so just because you start some shit, it's always better if the world is better, society is better, cities are better, teams are better,

everything is better if bullies know their limits. Yeah, I think the reason I said it's hard to answer because I almost think it's impossible because my initial response is answering that with another question. Well, what does it mean to win? And if we don't know what that is because of all the things that we've been saying before, then how can I root for America to win when what's on the other side of it?

I don't know. Well, I mean, if I don't know what it means to win. If what's on the other side of it is a balkanized Iran where there is no sense of identity throughout the people, throughout the country where it's a failed state that ends up in, because, you know, if that's what it means for those people there, but it means safety and peace for me, it feels like I'm being a bad human for rooting for that. Yeah.

But I understand that that's not necessarily the way the world works. I get that the world works for a lot of people and a lot of entities that we're safe because they're unsafe. They're unsafe because we are safe. I get that that's a thing and that's just like a way that the world works. but I keep hoping that it can work in a different way, I think. Absolutely. And so it's an interesting question that we should all think about

because that'll then orient the way we push our government on issues of foreign policy like this. Do you want to live and do you want to be a part of a situation to where your safety is based upon some schoolgirl getting incinerated in Iran? It's tough. It's tough. And it's not easy. And you can sit here and act like you have a pure, good person.

I am the best person, easy. But you don't. Right. You don't have it because you certainly don't want that stuff happening here. Right. But I believe in the justice and dignity of people, no matter, you know, where they were born and in what situation. And sometimes to do that, you've got to clean up your own backyard. Okay.

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flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. Jamie Lawson, on the other side of this break. All right, guys, it is Oscars week.

It is the week where this intense cultural battle is coming to a head. We've been talking about these movies this entire time, but there's one film that is stolen and captured our hearts. You guys know what it is. It's no need for us to continue to belabor it. It centers. And to help us celebrate

Oscar week and talk about cities, the industry, her exploding career, all of these things together. We have Perlaine herself. Jamie Lawson is joining us today on Higher Learning. How are you doing, sister? I'm good, I'm good, how y'all doing?

We are great. We are fantastic. Thank you for asking. Okay, you're, you got one. You've been, you've done so many things. You've done so much stuff. Like, we do a podcast here at the ring called The Midnight Boys. So, you know, I know you as we talk about comic book movies, fandom, things like that.

So I know you as a completely different person. I saw you as Perlena. I'm like, oh, look, this is the mayor. So, but for you. you are now in one of those generational genre, classic films, right? That's what Senators has become. And I don't think that the conversation around the movie is going to stop anytime soon. It's going to continue as people come to it to appreciate it even more.

How does that feel? What is that like? It's unreal, man. It's just, yeah, it's unreal, especially because of how people clung to it so quickly. It was one of those like, we were filming on set and we all knew it was special and you just, and you felt like, yeah, people are going to come to this. They will.

They will find this project. You just didn't think they would find it in the matter of a weekend. And just love it as, like, the way it's being taken care of and loved and celebrated two years later, it's like quite crazy. Yeah, I can't get enough of it. I'm not like a crazy movie watch. but I cannot tell you the amount of times that I've seen sinners, and it's one of those movies where every single time you watch it,

you just see and feel something different. And you talked about, like, you realized while you were filming it, you knew that this was something special, but also while you were filming it, was there a moment on set where maybe you felt like the weight of the history and the cultural, culture, I mean, behind the story. Did I feel the weight of the culture of the... I don't know that I did, if I'm honest.

Okay. I was just enjoying it. Because filming that was such a celebration. I mean, you got to think about, like, the first half of that film is nothing but seeing black folks live in ecstasy, right? Yeah. And so that was a lot of just what the experience was for me.

It was like, you just got to, like, enjoy, we just enjoyed the film. I enjoyed the filming process. I think feeling the weight of, of, I've been, anything came way after, like after I watched it. It was like this awareness, right? There was the cultural, the historical background. You have that awareness.

You have that prep. But it never felt heavy. That's how I answered that. I never felt heavy in the filming process, not once. You are a young actress. And this film deals with a lot of, I felt connected to it. old. Okay. So the- How old are you, man? I'm 45, okay? So,

see? He's old. See? See? That was that Don't Kevin Hart moment. Damn. You thought I was bullshit, but I'm being for real. I'm old, right? So, congratulations. Thank you. That's a nice way to say it. That's a nice way to say. Van didn't die. Thank you. Yeah, wow. Appreciate it. Look at that. Look how, see how that. See, you're going to be like, you thought I was going to be like, I'm old. You thought I was, he was, to bust out. I'm 34, 35, 35. No, it's 45. 1980. That's about to be 46. About to be 46 is happening. Okay.

Wow. You look great. Appreciate that. Now, the people, this is going to sound really stupid to y'all. But the people in sinners, those people raise me. No bullshit. Like Baton Rouge, Louisiana, my big papa, all my family, those people raise me. for you, how connected did you feel to the stories of the people in the Delta to that type of African-American culture, black culture, history, and folklore? Was that something you had to sort of get into and study, or did you draw on your ancestors when you were doing the film? It's a mix, right? So for me, my childhood bestie was my great-grandma.

we called a nanny she was born in 1920 1919 1919 something like that and so that's like that's my early my early childhood like that me and her were thickest thieves

and and some of Perlene is pulled from how I imagined her I have like I have all of her photo albums right and you can see in her photo albums that she hosts

would be like the girl that would host these parties at her apartment in D.C. Like they just have all these people come through. And so I just imagine her as a young woman, like that life that she would, was trying to live, right, despite all that she was coming up against. So, yeah, I can pull from that. And then also there's just also pulling from Ryan's personal family, right? And what he was willing to share because this is based off of a lot of members in his family. And then, yeah, your own research that you do.

But nothing felt inaccessible or like I was pulling too far. You know what I mean? Right. It ain't that long ago. It ain't that far removed. The stories aren't too far from a conversation. I love the character of Perlene. And I think that the more I watched it, the more I felt like, I don't know, just like that,

Ninda's going to lead into the question, just the way that I felt like she lived so freely and there was something liberating about watching her and just truly the lasting mark that she left on Sammy you know all the way through the movie for you was there I guess what was the first detail about Perlene when you read

the script that made you feel connected to her or made her feel real I should say um I think she definitely read real but I'd say the thing that made me feel connected I was I was so interested in in how this woman

presents versus how she performs like that that was really interesting to me because when you first meet her she's very coy she's a little you know she's playing some game she's not divulging too much And then she gets up on that stage And like it is transformative

And it is something else And that was something immediately I was like, I need to do that Like I need to explore that I want to craft that out Especially setting it at that time Right? And what is that exploration

Of black female liberation Right? in that specific way, how do you, how do you, how do you reclaim your own freedom or sense of self,

your own body in that way? You know, um, all of that I was just like so excited to pick apart and, and figure out, you know, who is she presents at versus when she, when she steps foot on that stage.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about this as far as it relates to Perlane real quick. Um, Let's talk about Perlian's husband. Now, so let's have a discussion. Let's have a discussion about him because everything happens in sinners, right?

And, you know, somebody comes to Perlene's husband like the next day and they say to him, they go, your wife was eating by vampires. And they say that to him. And he goes, damn, that's upsetting. He goes, what is that? What? Well, you know, because what happens is, I'll tell you what will happen. What happens is there becomes a legend in the town. Sure, of course.

And then in a country town like this, it's like, hey, I don't know if y'all know, but what happened at the Juke was everybody got eaten by Club Juke. Everybody got eaten by vampires and stuff like that. Poor Perlaine, she got eaten by vampires. And the husband, oh, my God, I got to sharpen steaks, and I got to get silver together, and I got to get garlic because he's going out to avenge Perlene. then somebody goes Hey man

I just want to let you know that before the vampires ate Purline okay but how would that be anybody else in business what you mean but see this is why I'm talking no but just

but this is what would happen just let you know before the vampires ate Perlene she got ate twice and so and so hold on so my question to you is Should Perlene's husband want revenge against the vampires or should Perlene's husband want revenge against preacher boy?

Hold on for a second. Can I just talk to Jamie Lawson? Real quick. It's not always about, but like who should Perlene's husband want revenge against the vampires or preacher boy? Okay. I'm going to flip it on you. Flip it on me. Would you want to avenge your girl by going after the guy that.

first, or the vampires that finished the job? I mean, for me, this is the deal. What I kind of feel- Because it feels like a question from your perspective that needs to be answered. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on. I don't make moral judgments

because I'm not in any position, all right? I don't make moral judgments, but I do think about in these stories, I always think about the next day. I always write, I write, I write sequels. to these stories. I think about the next day. And I think about Perlene's husband. He's going to wake up and it's going to be very sad. And then at the same time, Perlene was out there. Let's be honest, doing some shit. She had no business doing. And is that not true? Hold on. Hold on.

Wait. We can't talk. Is that not true? Well, see, you think of a sequel. I don't know how you can say I don't give moral judgments and then continue on with that sentence. Hold on. I don't. I don't. I don't give moral judgments, but I can, even when I'm doing some shit I'm not supposed to be doing, I can say I'm not supposed to be doing. I think about the prequel. It's so funny that that's how you think of it. Because in my mind, you're like he's so

sad. He wants to avenge. I felt like Perlene was a woman who wanted to be seen and like did not feel seen in her marriage. I feel like that there was something, because if I think about it, maybe she felt like a prisoner or trapped in her own marriage.

There was something that recently divorced, recently divorced, Jamie, recently divorced here. See what I'm talking about? Just keep it. No, but I swear to God, I've thought about this. We got Jamie Lawson on the show. That's what we brought on here to do.

I swear to God, I thought about this. That there was something that she wasn't getting. There was some kind of unhappiness, some kind of sadness within her that in that moment, you described it as ecstasy, the first part of the movie, that she felt seen in a way that she didn't in her marriage and liberated in a certain way, which is what you saw come out on that stage. Jamie, am I right?

We have to remember, because you started this off about reaching back to this time, right, this historical context. In this historical context, right, when you're talking about black women, sharecroppers in the South, often married off young. True. Let's start there, right? So the vision of who this husband was is always so fascinating to me because in the conversations that I had with Ryan and building up,

who this husband was, right? This is an older man, that she had no choice in Marion. So my freedom in who I got to be partnered with got taken from me. Bam. So I'm now joined to this older man. I had no choice in it. Cool. This man then I'm supposed to expect to love me,

care for me, take care of me. Yet there might be some violence happening at the home, right? Okay. What is it also then if he is supposedly a man of God? And that, and what he brings home with that, right? Where is her freedom in this marriage that then forces her to step out to go to this juke? I think we like to simplify characters in a way that is somewhat digestible and they get to be nuanced. Perlene gets to be nuanced, right?

And so no, it's not that she just was out here because she won't be out here. She's in search of something. She's in search of something that she could not get at her home. And it's more than just getting eaten out. I love that. There's a level of freedom. There's a level of, I want to feel a lot. Yeah, yeah.

I'm telling you guys. I saw it. You guys, that's how I looked at it too. Like, I'm just being honest with you. You guys are, I'm just being for real. You guys are speaking my language. But just remember the language, especially you. Just like, you guys are speaking my language.

But just remember the language that we're speaking now. Because we might have to speak that language again. And it's not going to be the same. How could he? But like, remember, like, remember the language we're speaking? Remember that we had this talk, okay? And that was kind of the thing that I liked about, centers. What I liked about the movie itself was that, first of all, when I heard the stories, I'll speak about a story that I've talked about a little bit with my grandmother.

When my grandmother was getting ready to transition, I was with her, like in a hospital. And I had gone to see her and she was sitting down. She was talking, talking. She was confessing. She was like getting things off her chest. I don't know if she didn't realize who I was at that time. But she was telling me about these stories from her life and this man that she had loved and these mistakes that she had made. and she was appealing to me almost

that she didn't know what was going on she had no clue what was happening and by the time she got too deep in it she didn't really know what to do and I think so when I watched the movie when I watch sinners I thought about our ancestors the people who created us

the lives that they led and how sometimes we romanticized them as if they weren't human sometimes we look at them through a purity lens and we don't talk about, oh, they had traditional families. They stayed married forever. They did all of these things that we are not capable of doing.

Not looking at the fact that they fucked up and got eating out in the juke joint too. You know what I mean? So when I looked at the way the movie just brutally depicted black humanity in the South, I really appreciated it. For you, making the film, was there any thought about how the depiction of black black people, how important that would be to the audience, how important that depiction of them would be when the movie was released. Absolutely. I mean, like I said, I love that we spend the first half of the film watching black people in ecstasy.

I just like, I love that we get to spend the first half falling in love with these characters coming to see them just come alive. And them trying to put this rally their community together to put on this party. Right? You get to live in that. And that, to me, that meant so much. And then also, then when you introduce the vampires, like I love that Ryan set the horror to be this mythical thing, as opposed to what could have very easily been accessible as the horrors of the Jim Crow South. You know what I mean?

because then it kept us in a way it still preserved us right? I can go to this theater I can watch this movie and I don't have to be traumatized by it right? I can just enjoy the horror of a thing and not leave feeling

like horror was done to me you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very easy way to, or just, that's the, that's the reality of something that is set in the Jim Crow South, right? And so, yeah, getting to see black bodies turn into vampires as well. It's just like, because why not? Trying to hold these, like, makeshift, rifle spear thing, like, like, why not? All of that.

And then also with autumn cinematography, the way in which we were lit, like, the skin, like, it just looked gorgeous. And like you could feel the sweat. Like you could feel it like, ah, all of that stuff. Loved it. You know, we discovered her. We discovered her here on higher learning. She came and did the show.

Okay. Yeah. Well, next time you walk, like, next time you talk to her, say, hey, Van says, you're welcome. Yeah. Uh-huh. Sure. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Listening to you talk about the movie is making me fall in love with the movie all over again. I think that that's the beauty of it too. You can talk about it 50, 11 different ways and just it's so layered but like beautiful and rich

and all these things. And as you're, it's award season, we've seen you guys everywhere which I've loved and there's so much conversation continuing surrounding the movie a year later almost. Wild. As you're having these conversations and just like seeing the representation of sinners

and our stories and our culture and just blackness and history and all of that. Like what conversations about representation in Hollywood do you still think need to happen? Oh, there are many. There are many. I think something I'm actively learning from Ryan with the making of sinners.

and everything he does, you can feel it like he makes it for us. Like you can tell that we are cared for in the projects he makes. And in doing that, he is still able to reach a global audience. And I am hopeful that the industry is like paying attention that that's not a that's not like some like anomaly, right? That that can then become a norm where you can center and focus on black stories and community the way I was trained, right, in my schooling. I was always taught as an actor, right, to be very specific in my choices, right?

It is through your specificity of choices that then there is a universality, that then anybody can then clean and find themselves in the choices you make. But when you come to a thing and you're just general, you actually end up excluding everyone. That's the train of thought that I was raised with. So when I watched someone like Ryan, who's very specific in speaking to

and upholding us and then finding success of everybody being able to tap in and watch his stuff, I hope the industry is really paying attention and realizing that's not just a Ryan Coogler thing that that is a possibility, that that can be a norm in the industry. And that's how you tackle like representation as opposed to just this general, like, let's just slap anything in everybody into anything and think that that's going to do something.

You know what I mean? Yeah. That's my hope. Does our need for representation ever encumber our artists? What do you mean? Same one. The fact that, for example, there was a lot of conversation by me.

Like I had a problem with the character of Perfidia Beverly Hills in one battle after another. I talked a lot about what I thought the character represented and how the character was written. However, I must hear the argument that Perfidia Beverly Hills is a character that is written. There's not a perfect character and does not have to represent the black Madonna of Mold. motherhood and perfect revolutionary action. It is somebody's artistic vision. And then the character was interpreted by Tiana Taylor. However, as a black man, there's a certain way that I want to see black women represented

on screen. Does representation ever hinder black artist's ability to go out and create art without always having to put what we think a positive image is on the screen? Right. Because I think, I think the response, your response to wanting to see. see black women a certain way is because you are feeling the constriction and restriction, right? Like, I think if that didn't exist, I don't think that there would be such a delicacy or care, right? We would allow for our experience to span a spectrum. But when there feels

like there is a constriction to always or only ever show certain things, then we feel this tightness of like, well, no, we need to be represented in this way. Hence why I love the character of Perlene, because she's causing all the... this conversation where it's like she's not a perfect character. And I'm not interested in representing black folks as perfect, right? I don't think that does us any good because we're not. I think the whole point is that we get to be nuanced, like truly nuanced, where we can agree or disagree with the choices that are made on screen. And that's how you fully restore our dignity and our humanity, right? It's not just in, um,

this more a pedestal, right? Getting rid of like, in some context, like there's like the magical Negro, right? There's this idea of black excellence and what that looks like. Like, no, like let it, let us breathe and be in all forms. How do we identify the line? When do we know that something is,

what I mean is how do we know as an audience, as people who are also trying to create there's people who are trying to enjoy this stuff. How do you identify the line of when something is artistic reflection of imperfection, when does it cross into exploitation? When does it cross into somebody just doesn't know how to write us? Right? How do you?

I can look at centers, right? Just I can look at centers and go, hey, Ryan Coole, Googler who is dedicated to putting three-dimensional black characters in his movies has put a bunch of characters in this movie that do things that might be morally

questionable, but you see them as people. You see them as people living, loving, sweating, expressing, right? Then there are other things where the black people are there seemingly just to sell drugs and fuck shit up. But that's art too. So how do we identify the line

to you of when it becomes something that's more damaging to the way we're perceived culturally or in the greater American experience. Well, see, see, see. And that's the, but that's the conversation, right? I'm interested in a world

where we are not concerned with how we are perceived. I agree. Right? You know? Like, that's a lot to take on. And I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of it. I am. But it is a lot to carry where we feel like every single black person is a representative of all of us. That's, I'm sorry.

It's a lot. And so I am, I am aspiring to this artistic expression in which, again, let it all live. and then invite this discussion, right? And allow there to be that conversation. And allow characters to be characters. Allow black folks to get to be characters. That's what I love about, like you're seeing Tiana and Wumi. These are characters that they've crafted, right?

Del Boyd, these are characters. Mike, these are characters. And that to me, that's, That's exciting. That's interesting to me. I love the way that you say it and you talk about the nuance in it because we did have a discussion about

one battle after another. And I felt like often we're placed in, and I was just say particularly black women, placed in maybe a certain stereotype that people feel like that's the character you're supposed to play. And I thought Tiana's performance was very, I thought it was empowering because she wasn't what you thought a revolutionary was.

I thought she made choices. You didn't like them. She wasn't a likable character. She made a smiling. This is how I felt this. She was selfish. She was selfish. She sacrificed other, she put herself over the cause at the end.

But that was the nuance or the complexity of the character she played. And she decided to make those choices, which is a form of empowerment. I'm sorry. I looked at the role completely different And I hated the criticism that she was continuing to get because, as you said, she was a character, she was written. I didn't think it was exploitation in any kind of way.

And I think it takes away from the performance that she was giving. I really do. I think it takes away from the artistry of it. And I hate that she's gotten to this point. And that's the conversation that's being had as opposed to what it could be, which is the way I interpret it. And also going back to your thing about like she wasn't the only black. in that film, right? So there also doesn't need to be this, like,

she has to represent. No, there was a range. And that's what we should be celebrating. There was a range of something that you agree with, disagree with, like, didn't like. Oh, you had just said something, Rachel, that made me think, oh, and I lost it. Hopefully it comes back later.

But yes. She said it was empowering to snitch on the revolution. That's what she said. That's probably what, yeah. This is the, so what I actually loved about this about one battle was I went in thinking this was a Leo film. And I got to walk away saying, oh, no, this is a Tiana, Chase, Regina, Bernicio. Like, and I, I loved that. I loved that you almost got to serve as like the decoy, right?

for a lot of audience members to come into this film and you get to introduce into these all these other stories and the real revolutionaries. I love that. I absolutely love that. Yeah. I did too. I'm not going to ask any questions about that thing that happened. I'm going to ask a question about a question that came out from that thing that happened. I think we've talked about that enough. So a lot of people have been talking about award shows and, you know, the Oscars are a big deal happening this week. And I've heard the thought that maybe

black performers shouldn't go to award shows that are not put on by black people. We are having the conversation about whether or not going to those award shows even serves black performers. Oscars,

SAG, whatever it is. If they're not run by black organizations like AFCO or like the NAACP awards that we shouldn't go. We shouldn't go there to show up. You are a performer in this industry. What do you say to that idea? It's something I'm still ruminating on because, like, in one context,

awards don't matter, right? I can hold that to be a truth, especially when you're talking about art, right? How do you award that? I like to look at this award season. I don't like it to feel competitive. I don't like to look at art as a competition. And so for me, it's like, it's more so about celebration.

What's made this award season very interesting, and I think sad cemented that, is you've gotten to see a diversity of thought and opinion in response to the art that's been out there, right? And so it gets to be this real celebration of different people on different nights, right? Cool. In one hand, I can go, awards don't matter. And then there is like this thing, right? And I've been trying to interrogate, like, what that thing is.

I feel like, I feel like, so one of my, this is going to be a long-winded answer. Apologies, but I'm not there. I know about being long-winded. One of my favorite authors is James Baldwin. And he was one of the first people that gave me. language to an experience that I could never pinpoint. And he talks about this collective paranoia amongst black folk, right, where we can be experiencing a thing collectively.

We know it to be our reality. Yet everything and everyone else outside of our community is actively telling us, that's not true and that's not real. It creates this generational paranoia, right, that we all. We don't talk about it, but it like lives with us. I think that sometimes that feeling is also, well, it is expressed also when we talk about celebrating art. We as collectively as black folks go, that's amazing. That performance is amazing.

That artist is phenomenal. And when everything and everyone else is trying to tell us, no, I think it sparks that, that paranoia, that like infliction on what is real for us. So on one hand, like I said earlier, I would love to live in a world where I'm not so concerned with that perception or that affirmation from people outside of us to confirm our reality. And yet still, I don't know if that is possible fully, right? I don't know if that is enough. I don't know that it's enough because then I think we're also asking of ourselves to settle for a level of lack of recognition dehumanization, right? If we're saying, well, we'll just accept that they don't see us and we're only going to go where we are seen. I think there needs to be a balance and there still needs to be a fight to be affirmed because we deserve to be.

affirmed. Does that make sense? Well, it does to me. The tension is that we know that the awards matter. And that's And it, and it, so. But in what, in what, in what context?

Okay. So they don't matter in terms of, they don't matter in terms of what's the best art. When I was coming up in the 90s, I watched Don, there's two performances that I went, oh, they just don't get it. And some people might agree, some people might disagree. I watched Don Cheedle and Devil in the

blue dress and I was like, look at what he's doing. Like, I watched him, I was like, look at that character. And I watched Queen Latifah and set it off. And when I watched what Queen Latifah did and set it off and it came away and people were talking about how great she was, but I didn't see. And I was like, oh, they just don't get it. There's just certain times it's just not going to get it. They're not going to get it.

They're not going to get it, right? I watched those. I was like, oh, they're not, those people are not going to sweep all these awards when you look at that type of star making performance from her. and he was just so dead, nice in that role. I was like, they're not going to get it. But we know that the awards matter and honors in any profession matter.

They just do. Like if you are an NFL player and after your career is over, it's five-time all-pro, five-time first team, all-NBA. It just matters. It puts you in a different pantheon. Okay.

And because I would argue, I love how Ryan is navigating all of this. because I think he really understands it. Like he said, hey, I don't care about the awards. My reward is that I get to keep making films, right? You've heard Viola speak about this. We've heard Lupita speak about this. They win these awards.

It doesn't mean that all of a sudden now they're going to be rewarded with more job opportunities. So then I go, well, what do the awards matter? Great. I've got this trophy, but I can't work anymore. Right? So where do we place priority? Where do we place the, the, what good is it?

for everybody to get to celebrate us because they've given us this big old trophy but you never get to see us on a screen again. You never get to see us on a stage again, right? So that's why I go, the awards don't matter because they're not, it's not getting me my next job. It's not.

We got it going. She's going and the, I said since we won it, we're going. We disagree about this. Yeah, because you set the opposite. No, go ahead, go ahead. We disagree about this. I don't think that there's a whole bunch of people

who have won Oscars and then haven't worked. I also think that it, I think that they're, when I'm saying that the awards matter, I just mean that like there are certain, the reason why we have to continuously pound on the town to make sure that these things are being recognized is because, and that they're being recognized properly,

it's because to me, there can be a situation to where if we allow them to just continuously, reward themselves the entire time, then that is a way of submitting to being excluded from some of these spaces. And they will do that. They will do that. All disrespect, all disrespect, all respect to everybody that Ryan got a movie, Ryan movies make a billion dollars. Viola Davis and all these, when I hear people say that, you know, that have achieved so much that the awards don't matter and that the, that all the accolades don't matter.

I take that as the purity of how they, you know, go out there and do their art. It would be interesting to hear that from somebody who hasn't been recognized. Like if you haven't been recognized, if your movies don't make a billion dollars, if you've never wanted, saying that being recognized doesn't matter from the middle class and working actors of this town, the people that continue to do good work all the time and nobody ever really recognizes their work and they never really get to the mountain top. I wonder if they feel that way. if they feel like the work is the thing that rewards them

and nobody ever has to pay attention to what it is that they do. And then I'll stop talking. But then I don't think we're listening. I don't think we're listening to our elders when they speak because I've heard every one of my elders tell me they get to the mountaintop and they felt the loneliest that they've ever been. They were the most depressed they've ever been. They were the most isolated they've ever been.

That what they thought they wanted, that big thing that they thought they wanted, it didn't give them anything, right? So I push back on that, right? I don't, I don't, I, I am an artist because I want to make art and I want to create and I want to speak to people that don't feel seen or a reality that they feel like they haven't yet put language to. That's why I create. I don't really, yeah, it'd be nice to be recognized. Like I'd be lying as a human being to say I don't want to be recognized. But that can't be my priority.

That can't be my goal. because then I'm a lose sight of why I'm doing this and who I'm doing it for and the moment that happens well then what are we doing? That's a really good point. What are we doing to see somebody all the way on the mountaintop and they've forgotten about the rest of us? What are we doing?

You know what I mean? It does happen. Maybe not in other industries. It definitely does happen. Okay, so if sinners setting a record being nominated is 16 times for the Oscars, if, because this is kind of a conversation we had on the podcast. Does it say something if they don't,

if the movie or, you know, the actors and people that are nominated don't win anything or win very few? Does that say something? We gonna feel something. Okay. Like that's, you know, like, and when I say me, we, I mean, like, people. I don't mean the film or the cast. I mean, like, anybody that loved this film and has seen

and like loves it yeah it's natural to feel that you know um i don't know that it says anything though or that i even want to care to figure out what is trying to tell me i'm like okay the gauntlet has been passed and we're going to keep passing that thing right uh history has been made and and and again i love that history has been made with a project where that was even the goal. Ryan did not make this film for no awards, to break no records, to make no history. He just genuinely had this story, wanted to tell it with the focus he told it with, and to see him get rewarded everybody else around and get rewarded that way. That's like the thing that I'm going to keep focusing on for sure. I love that answer. I took some time. You want to

cook a little bit more? No, well, I do want to ask you this, like as we're talking about just celebrating the film and celebrating us and all of that. I'm curious for you, for you, what, and it doesn't have to be black actress or an actress at all, but like who has been influential in shaping your career? Because you're such an exciting actress to watch on the screen, and I just, you feel what you're doing, and then even to hear you talk about,

I just want to create, that shows in what you do, that it absolutely shows. So who is it that had the impact on you and shaping what you do and how you do it, I should say, how you do it. Huh. I'm like going through my pantheon. Early inspirations. I'd say, I always say my earliest inspirations were Lucille Ball and Felicia Rashad.

Those are like my, those were my two because I grew up watching I love Lucy and the Cosby show. Same. That's what was on in my house. And to the point, I owned all the I Love Lucy and the Lucy show tapes. Oh my gosh, me too. I still have them on DVD. I used to collect I Love Lucy stuff.

I'm not even kidding. And I thought Felicia Rashad was my mother. Like I would cry when she went off the screen. I thought she was my mom. Okay. Got it. Yep. So those are the two.

earliest women, I think that informed me as an actor. Yes, Lucille Ball is like this comedic genius, but she wasn't a comedian, right? Like, she was a very serious actor who could pull off comedy. And I even watch her, when I watch Al-LuChi, and I watch the way in which, like, you just watch her face and how she's registering information and the, and her facial expressions. and like, oh, I study that. And then Felicia Rashad, I was enamored with her use of language, like how she could just move through language in a way

that to me just like blew my mind and still blows my mind. So those are two early inspirations that I'd say for me as an actress. And then there are many different like authors and playwrights and artists that I've come across that have instilled either a level of work ethic or this desire to create for the community. Yeah, yeah. Interesting, they're very similar, and they're like, Al-a-Luosi changed TV and stuff.

I have a question for you. Is Baltimore and the DMV? Yes. It is. It is. Jamie. I'll tell you something. Now, now here's the deal.

You are not, this is the deal. Now, you are from D.C. all right you are from D.C. Okay. So you said it not me. Now let me tell you something

about my D&V people. I love it. I put D.C. in the crowning list of black cities. They're legitimately like four or five black cities that if you in L.A. or New York

and you say you from there, you can make friends by like saying that you from these places. Those cities to me are Detroit. New Orleans, Oakland, D.C., sometimes Atlanta. Atlanta's getting so big now that sometimes the Atlanta people don't coalesce together. But if you somewhere and you say you from New Orleans, Detroit, D.C.

Or Oakland, everybody want to be friends. I wanted to be, like I wanted to be from Oakland. Yeah, that I mean when we was at the ask. Because I wanted to be at the Senate's table. Yeah, what's going on? But when I start asking these, what's in the DMV questions? Uh-huh. Everybody freaks out, Jamie.

Okay, everybody freaks out. I asked the question just on Twitter, I said, hey, is Baltimore in the DMV? And people who are looking at me like, you dumb, stupid. Like, they act like they was about to send Wayne Perry at me. And like, and so, and I, and you're saying, yes, this is, I won't let you know, this is going out. Yes, it's just like, it's like if you tell, if you ask me, like, is cousin Terry in the family? Yeah.

I mean, but that's cousin Terry, but yeah, they're in the family. You know what I mean? Like, I'm about to say Baltimore ain't a part of D&B. It's still Baltimore. That accent is still what it is. Avenue. You know? You?

You. But then still, you know what I mean? Okay. I just that was my that was my I'm going to Baltimore too much for me to say that it's not like you know what I mean like I can't I can't do that do they say that they're a part of the DMV no not really not okay okay not like not not not really all right you've been so grateful which time I'm going to ask you one last question um young black actress is in Hollywood right now do you feel like Hollywood knows what to do with the young black actress.

I'm talking about specifically from 25 to like 33. Obviously, we have a lot of our other sisters established, but do you feel like Hollywood knows how to utilize the young black actors right now or they still trying to figure out like the stars that we're going to harvest from this generation? I don't know that they know what to do, nor are they trying to figure it out. I don't think that that's even on the radar. I don't. I think, I think, I think for a lot of folks,

young black girls don't exist in the subconscious. Like, it's just not a thing. We get introduced to black women, right? As far as like, and what roles do they serve, right? So when you talk about a young black girl, no, I don't feel like the industry is hungry or interested in those stories. And that's part of what I'm, as I continue to build out my career and craft out all the different avenues of how I want to exist in this industry, is catering to and finding experiences for young black girls to feel seen and see themselves. And so any young black actresses that are on the scene champion. And we fight tooth and nail because we, it's hard.

It's hard for them. It's hard. Jamie Lawson, thank you for joining us on higher learning. This is such fun. I really do wish I could have been there in person, honestly. But I'm glad I could have done this like this. Yeah. Next time I'm in LA.

Next time you're going to be out here this week, right? I'm assuming that you're going to come into all the park. I fly out soon. Yeah. Yeah, man. It's gonna be a packed a little week. It is.

It is gonna be a pat week. I'm gonna be out there. Are y'all coming to Essence? Um, come into the Essence Fest? What are you talking about? The black women in Hollywood? Oh, yeah.

They never invite me. It's like actually a thing. They never. They never. They never have worked. I've worked the carpet. I've worked the carpet. It's crazy.

I've never, they never invite me. Representation. Recognition. Recognition. You know, you see if I can do something. Wow. That's really sweet of you.

But see, that's what I'm talking about. Oh, I would love it. It's an incredible event. Like, I've worked it before. I've just never. You need to hook up to go into your own, to go to your cousin's house. See what I'm saying?

This is what I'm talking about. It's a beautiful event, though. Because you know what I could do? What I could do is I could go on a whole rant about some of these other spaces and how, but I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Rache, my co-host.

Okay. All right. They didn't invite you. Remember that. Remember that. You're so sweet. Yes. But I do hope we run into you because we'll be outside a little bit this week.

So I hope we're ready to you. Okay, good. Yeah. All right. Jamie Lawson, thank you for joining us. We're looking for that Perlene prequel because this guy, you know. We can just be called Perlene and Steve. Okay.

Steve is great. That's the name of the movie. Perlene and Steve. We could do a whole thing because y'all didn't make this man out to be. I was thinking Hezacaya. Love Hezacaya. Hezichia.

Perlaine and Hezzi. Y'all didn't make this man Mr. from the color purple. He never even got to say. He never even got to say. He never even got to say, but he's terrible. You're right. Justice for Hezzi.

All right. Thank you, Perlaine. We appreciate you joining this. Good luck to send us this week. Thank you guys. All right, bye-bye. All right, cool. Take your think caps off.

Do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, nice.