Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - ‘Sinners’ Box Office, ’The Quincy Avery Effect’, & How to Talk About Sex With Kamil Lewis

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Van and Rachel react to the death of Pope Francis (4:00), before discussing the opening weekend of ‘Sinners’ and the way the film's success has been covered in the trades (16:09). Plus, Shannon Sharpe gets sued (30:05), Rev. Al Sharpton meets with Target (41:43), and we crown the latest Glaze of the Week (50:55). Then, Deion Sanders justifies the retiring of jerseys (1:09:31), before QB guru Quincy Avery joins to talk the upcoming doc ‘The Quincy Avery Effect’ (1:16:08), and sex therapist Kamil Lewis helps breakdown the social discomfort around sex (1:54:01). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Quincy Avery and Kamil Lewis Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith www.kamillewis.com Instagram: @kamil.lewis Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Higher Learning is brought to you by MGM Plus. If you love high-stakes drama, Godfather of Harlem delivers. I can't wait to see it. I know it has Academy Award winner Forrest Whitaker. He returns as Bumpy Johnson, facing his deadliest battles yet for Harlem's future. When ruthless newcomer Frank Lucas arrives, everything changes. As power shifts and new threats emerge, will Bumpy forge an uneasible, Is he alliance with his enemies?

Or will he stand tall as the undisputed Godfather of Harlem? Well, you can find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem, new episodes streaming Sundays on MGM Plus. Yo, you know, thought warriors. What is up, how learning is on, this Ivan, Lacey, Jr. And it's me, Rachel in Lennon. It's Rachel's goddamn birthday. Motherfuckers.

My birthday. Donnie, it's Rachel's birthday. Working on my birthday. dedicated to the podcast, dedicated to the Thought Warriors. I think a lot of people adopt that mentality. You don't work on your birthday. You know what?

You want to sleep in. You want to relax. You just want to enjoy your day. And I'm enjoying it with the Thought Warriors and you. I worked on my birthday last week. But we will be drinking. We will be drinking. Definitely having a drink.

We have a sex therapist on the pod today. A lot of people say it was long overdue. That's my gift to you. That's my birthday present to you. Camille Lewis. Jamil Lainter. That's some stuff to talk about. We're going to talk about ethical pornography.

Whether or not porn addiction exists is all for me. We're going to talk about some things we've said in the past. We're going to talk about our relationships with sex, the black communities relationship with sex. How to talk about sex. How to talk about sex. This is a judgment-free zone. I love that we're doing this on my birthday.

We listen, but we don't judge. Yeah, we listen to what you're saying. We don't judge. Rachel's birthday today. Rachel. Yeah. Big 4-0. You've learned so many life lessons.

Man. You've been to so many things. How are you feeling today? You know, I woke up this morning and I reflects. And shout out to my friend Wayne, who also gave me this sash that says Backwoods Barbie. I don't know if it necessarily applies, but I told him that I would wear it. He asked me every year, like, what did you learn from your last birthday? And what do you want moving forward?

And I'm not sure that where I am with all that, like how I want to answer that. But I do wake up and I always reflect on my birthday. And I thought to myself, I thought, wow, 40. It's like an age you think about when you're younger. Like, oh, when I'm 40, this is going to happen. Or I'll look like this. Or I'll have this. I'll be this when I'm 40.

I don't know why that age, but at least for our generation, because remember it was like over the hill at 40. And I'm not. where I thought I would be, but I feel like I'm exactly where I want to be. Wow. That's how I woke up this morning. And it feels good, you know, 40 and free. Yeah.

That's the, that's the motto right now, the mantra. That's what's it. I have something else to say. If it's your birthday, it means it's somebody else's birthday, too. Oh, that's right. The mouse pup, Kalika Abrams. It's her birthday as well. Yes, it is.

Love you, Mouse. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Kalika. Oh. Perfect. timed. That was, is that, is that, is that, is that, is that champagne, is that chilled or is it warm?

It's warm. But we will drink it anyway. It's cold when it goes in your mouth. That's what I always tell people. Oh, Jesus Christ. Oh, Danny. Sex therapists need them more than ever. This is why, this is why we're doing this.

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or visit trimfireradio.com. We got to start off the podcast with some bad news. J.D. Vance killed the Pope. D.D. Vance assassinated the Pope. That's how you're going to start it off? Yeah. Can we honor this man? He hadn't been dead for more than 24 hours. Pope Francis has died, guys.

The Vatican announced on Monday. He had a number of health issues. He had battled these health issues over the years and died a month after he was treated for double pneumonia. I mean, history is the first pope from the Americas, the first Jesuit pope, the first pope since the eighth century, not to be from Europe. He was known for voicing views that sometimes clashed with those of the Catholic Church. Like in 2020, when he supported same-sex civil unions, he was seen as a more progressive pope, 88 years young, he has passed away. and I have to say that this comes

after J.D. Vance went and saw the Pope and look, you know, if you ask me, you see that type of evil and maybe you figure out this plane isn't for me.

He got on out of here. He said that enough. Yeah. A new nickname for J.D. Vance just dropped. What is it? Loser for. It is eerie to see him post pictures, I mean, post pictures of sitting with the Pope Francis right in front of him.

And then the next thing you see is that. I almost thought it was a joke. Yeah. I was like, did he really go? I thought, not a joke that he had passed away. I thought it was a joke that he had just visited him. I thought, are people recirculating an old picture? You know, did this happen a week ago?

But no, I mean, he was just there, which it's eerie. It's eerie. nonetheless. But obviously, the Pope means the Pope means a lot to a lot of people, especially because, to your point, he was seen as more progressive than other popes. He had an Instagram following. He famously said, who am I to judge, which was very controversial in the Catholic church, more so aligned with the message of Jesus Christ. Obviously, I don't agree with everything that he represented. You know, he's anti-abortion.

He's, you know, said women were being selfish by having pets over children. You know, there's certain things. But he was more progressive than most, which is a step in the right direction. Yeah. And now... He's put humanity first.

You can't take away how he lived his life and how he put humanity over everything. It was more outspoken than we've seen with other popes of the past. the movie Conclave will take place in real life and they will choose a new Pope, one of which is a blick. Donnie, will you look this up?

One of the guys that they're looking at, I only got a chance to read a little bit of it that just happened. He's a blick. He's a blick. He could be the Pope. He could be a blick. What's his name? We got, Donnie, look it up. We got a couple options. There's Peter Turkson, who's 76 and from Ghana.

And then the second one would be Robert Sarah. who's 79 and from Guinea. Okay. Two blicks. Is he, the other one is a blick as well? Two Africans, yes. Ooh.

Blicks. Blick, well, just because you're African doesn't mean that you're blick. All right, Twitter. Is the guy from Guinea blick? He's black. I'm looking at him. They're both black. Let me show?

Robert Sarah. So that's Robert Sarah. And the other guy is... But he's 79. Now, Pope Francis... They're all old. Pope Francis was 76. When he became Pope?

When he became Pope. Which the first black man, blick, blick. I don't do it well. Blick. Blick. The big. Man, you mentioned, I knew where it was from.

First man, you mentioned, he's 76. Robert Sarah, 79. Why don't they go young? Well, they could go younger. Because I remember when Pope Francis was chosen, 2013. Everyone was like 76. He's old. I mean, why don't they get like a, I don't know,

get like a 29-year-old Pope? Well, I think it's based off. Make Jamal Bryant the Pope. Whoa. Jamal Brian for Pope. No, stop that. Stop that. Jamal Bryant.

He's not of the same religion. Like, change it, though. Like, let Jamal Brian be the Pope. Why him? First of all, I fuck with Jamal Bryant. As much as I do, these are my passes that I like. Okay? I like Jamal Bryant.

I like Touré. All right, I like Carl Lentz. You guys know this. But Jamal Bryant right now is probably, he probably got the most heat behind him. It's interesting. I don't know. Toray doesn't have these allegations,

but two out of your three, has issues with women. Pastor Holy Whore. Never forget. But look, let me tell you something now. I'm looking at, this is the way we look at things, and I'm glad we're having Camille on later. I'm looking at guys who have overcome.

Maybe they've overcome. Well, yeah, we're all sinners. Yeah, I've looked at guys that have overcome and are still doing amazing inspirational work for people. Jamal Bryant, Carl Lentz. Carl Lentz is so healed and so transformed that I cannot help but be proud of Pastor Carl. You still talk to him. I haven't talked to him in a while. You should have him on the podcast.

I haven't talked to him in a while. But the things that he's doing, the way he's put his life back together and the fact that it was his faith that got that to me, that to me is faith in action. I agree. Faith when you're perfect and grace when you're perfect, that's all well and good. but when your life and who you are has been fractured and your faith gets you through it I agree that to me is God in action

I feel like and you know we talked about Carl Lentz in the past and this podcast and we disagree I believe in being accountable I don't be I don't believe in being shunned right and that's what happened to him yeah but having said all that I think the next pope should be Jamal Bryant well

I think the next pope You know what? I don't want him to be the next Pope, but I'm happy to have him in consideration. So then we can get the Monique clips going around of her pulling out the binder and talking about having a tabbed, colorful list of his transgressions.

I'm for that going around again because that was a time. That was a moment. So just so we, so then we are in agreement. Higher learning officially endorses no. For Pope. No.

We're in agreement. Hire learning. officially endorses Jamal Bryant for Pope. Like many things on this podcast, we are not in agreement, but I'm happy for him to be considered. Okay. A couple of quick hitters, Donnie. These are quick.

This is something new we're going to do. We're new. It's a couple of stories you should be following. Quick hitters, Donnie, quick. Real fast. Pete Hagseth is back on Signal. He included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer on plans for a strike on Yemen on March 15th. Second quick hitter, Kanye West tweeted,

This song is called Cousins with a link to a new song in which he talks about how he looked at porn with his cousin as a teenager and he says that he sucked his cousin's dick until he was 14. And the song, the chorus is, I gave my cousin here. I gave my cousin. I gave my cousin. Quick hitter. Donnie? Donnie. We can't play the audio.

So I did my best for copyright. right purposes. Donnie, why can't we play the audio? Copyright. We don't want to get sued by Yeezy. I think it's important, Van, that you say why you're laughing, so people don't think that you're laughing for the wrong reasons. I'm trying to, it's bad. I'm bad. I'm a bad person. For those of you listening and not watching, Van is covering up his face with his cowboy hat. I'm a bad, I'm bad. His eyes are watering. I'm bad. I'm a bad person. I'm a bad person. I'm a bad person. I'm a tried, Donnie, you shouldn't have saying the verse. He shouldn't have, Don't have.

Because it was, so... Donnie. We're not, until... I'm not even confident that it would have been a copyright issue. I just think Donnie just wanted to do that. Take that back. Not true. Okay. This is, first of all,

okay, first of all, we're not going to, until we know more... We're not going to talk about this. We won't discuss it. Because I'm not trying to laugh at anybody. Donnie. Quick hits. Quick hitter.

The chorus of the song is just mad hysterical. I didn't listen to it. It is. So that was my first time hearing it, Donnie. But we should talk about it because we should talk about it on Thursday, once we have more. If more comes out. If more comes out. Because we're not going to.

Come on now. Gosh, that sex therapist is right on time today. Come on. If more comes out. Because it should be noted, we probably won't. hear from the individual he's referencing because he is in prison for murder. Mm-hmm. So I don't know that we'll get much more from this, but this is, can I just say this?

Most of the time it seems like Kanye West is spewing out things about other people. It is interesting that this time, this is something that is personal about him. I just want to make that observation. We should say this as well in all seriousness. YG did the song some time ago where he talked about a relationship that he had that was very inappropriate

when he was a young man that probably changed his perception in his relationship to sex. This song that Kanye O.S. has out, it's kind of sparse. We don't really know the age of the cousin. We don't know if these are two young boys exploring or if this is a situation where Kanye O.S. was taking advantage of.

it doesn't it doesn't well it does say when he was six they acted out what they saw oh so Kanye was six and the cousin when the cousin was six they acted out what they saw the cousin was six years old

and Kanye West was Kanye says this went on until he was 14 yeah yeah so they were minors it seems like right okay so what I'm saying is what whatever there's so much we don't know it's just I'm sorry the chorus of the song

is like mad hysterical. Like if you listen to it and I think that Kanye knows that by the way. I don't know how much of this is a troll job, how much of this is accurate, how much of this is Kanye was looking for attention,

trying to shock us because this is kind of the last frontier, right? Or maybe just being putting something out there. Maybe so. Maybe he's like getting things off his chest that he's been going through or fighting. I don't, we don't know.

And the saddest part about that notion is that he has done so much that seems like it's just to shock you, that seems like it's just to garner a headline, that in a moment where he might actually be truly being vulnerable and truly talking about something that's worth discussing, people might look at him as the boy who cried wolf. Well, that's why I think it's important to make the distinction that most of the times he is never, not never,

but he's not talking about himself. Yeah. And that's where I, this is like, whoa, well, this is different. Shocking, jarring what he's saying. But it's about him. Yeah. It involves, well, it involves obviously his cousin, but you get what I'm saying. So that's why I thought, whoa, this seems different.

Yeah, yeah. All right, Donnie, that wasn't really a quick hitter. That was a medium hitter. But, Donnie, get us into the first topic. Centers, everybody's been talking about it. It topped the domestic box offices weekend with an estimated $48 million. But a lot of the headlines that have been coming out about it have kind of been iffy. A recent deep dive from Vulture was reported that Cooleur wanted ownership of the film to revert

to him after 25 years, which he got from Warner Brothers. Now, this isn't a thing that hasn't happened before. Mel Gibson owns the rights to Passion of the Christ, for instance, and Quinn Tarantino will get ownership of once upon a time in Hollywood in a couple of decades. It seems like this deal has executives thinking that is very dangerous for Hollywood, and it could be the end of the studio system. Rachel, are you buying a ticket to sinners right now? So I did see sinners, but it's my birthday today. And having watched it, which, you know, if you guys listened to Friday's podcast, you know, I hadn't seen it since, I loved it so much.

I spent hours more than I normally do. It's a thing with me and Willie when we see a movie, because he's my. more into the YouTube world than I am. I'm trying to get better with that. We always watch explainers on TikTok and YouTube. He's got me into that. So now that I've seen the explainers, I really want to go see it again. Now I need to watch it through a different lens. So yes, I am looking at up. I did not see it on IMAX because I really wanted to see it on Friday and it was only available at the front. And you know if you listen to our wonderful interview with Omar, he said second back half is how you need to see it. So I'm trying to see.

maybe if I can see it tonight. Because I want to sign my birthday. But as you can see, which is a good thing. It's sold out pretty much. So sinners, $48 million. It's an R-rated horror movie that opened on Easter. Has a reported $90 million, Easter weekend, shall say. A reportedly $90 million budget.

It is not uncommon to talk about what a break-even number for a movie is. It's normally done with more of the Marvel stuff, though. Because those films are judged almost as financial pieces. They're almost looked at as like investments as part of a greater portfolio and that portfolio being the MCU. So every time an MCU movie comes out, you're litigating the worth of the MCU by that project. See what I'm saying? So it's like if Captain America comes out or any other more,

movie comes out and the box office is not super high on it, you say, okay, well, maybe the overall project of the MCU is depreciating. Maybe it's losing its value. However, in, I guess 19 or whatever it was when Captain Marvel came out, a movie that was pretty good, not bad, it made a billion dollars. And you're thinking, it made a billion dollars. And you're thinking the MCU is at an all-time high, the value of the MCUs through the room. So the reason why we talk about, okay, how much this movie have to make for profitability, how much this movie is normally when we're talking about endeavors, Star Wars, MCU, stuff like that when we talk about budgets because it's a fandom stuff.

It's interesting to see so many of the trades talk about the profitability of sinners. Sinners is going to be profitable. But on a weekend when sinners was the number one movie at the point, box office. And it wasn't just the number one movie at the box office. It won culturally. It won with the critics. It's interesting to see so many of the trades and so many of the talking heads go, not quite yet. It was interesting to me. So this is obviously taps into your expertise more than mine. But what is it that makes it so interesting? Is it because of who's behind the movie? Is it because of certain things that, you know, he asked that typical director,

don't ask, is it because it's a horror movie? Can you talk a little bit about, like, why? Because I'm, you know, I can read the articles, but I'm not, is it a Cinephi? Yes, Cinephi. I'm not as well-versed, which, by the way, big picture popped up on my YouTube. And I saw you do a little, I watched it, I was watching it, and I was like, he's going to say that I don't watch movies. It's coming. It's coming.

You were doing sinners. It came. which I would Mallory and Sean should come on a podcast for sure Mallory doesn't do big picture that's Amanda Dobbins Take that out

No, leave that in the podcast No way Leave like Leave that No Damn Leave that in the pot See what I'm talking about

This is the type of shit I'm talking about Leave that in the podcast No no no I've been drinking No I've been drinking Leave in the pot Because see how you were trying to

at me? I even know what the fuck you was talking about. Leave that leave that in the podcast. It's my birthday. I get a pass. Okay. But my point is they're more than welcome to come on the podcast. Amanda's shot. Anyways, you

explain why is it interesting to you? Because not everybody, maybe not everybody's as bad as me when it comes to movies, but they're not as well-versed. No, no. They're not as well-versed as you. Why is it so interesting that this movie is garnering so much attention to where the headlines are reading in this way? Okay. One reason is because the economics of the movie were not a talking point.

Until? Until the deal that Coogler negotiated was made public. Okay. And is that normal for that to be made public? Because why wait? Obviously he made that deal when he started doing movies. So why is this public now? Well, it's going to become a part of the story of the film.

Okay. So that's not uncommon. And it's unusual. And when a movie has so much interest, they're going to look for most anything that they can report about it. So that's one thing. Secondly, well, that's honestly the only one. thing. And I'll tell you why. What it seems like

is that some of the trades are doing the work of the town. Now, when Quentin Tarantino made the deal that he made for once upon a time, you heard about it, and it came and went. Great movie. One Brad Pitt at Oscar. Made a lot of money. Good, good movie, I'd say. All right, but it came and went. This one, you started to get articles that were like, does Ryan Cougler's deal for sinners

threaten the future of the studio system? Amanda Dobbins, yeah, Valerie Rubin, okay. Does it threaten the future of the studio system, right? Okay. And that's a very interesting take on that. First of all, not every filmmaker is going to be able to negotiate, this. Ryan Cooler's track record in his first four movies is

spillbergian really when you think about the success of those movies and the billions that they've made. Two of them being Marvel movies, one of them being created, the other one being a really lauded critical movie. So not everyone's going to even have the juice to do that. So it's not going to threaten the studio system in that regard. Number two, the studios just aren't going to do it. And they're not going to do it for most people.

And so most people are not going to get the opportunity to experience that. They're not going to do it. And movies will still be made. And people are still going to want to make studio movies. People are still going to, it's kind of like the 360 deal. Like everyone thought that the 360 deal would change music, as in the artists would not, like, succumb to the 360 deal. If you guys don't know where the 360 deal is,

it used to be that record companies can make so much money on an artist just by essentially getting royalties off of their music and stuff. But then when streaming came in, that wasn't the case anymore. Streaming meant that you made less money off the actual movie. So the 360 deal was, I'm going to take a little bit of your music to recoup, but then a little bit of your touring, a little bit of your merch, a little bit of your this, a little bit of that. So 360. It's the full artist deal. That's a very crude way to explain that. People thought the artist's got to change music, the artists aren't going to go for it.

No, they're going to still want to be signed the majors. They are going to accept what the majors are offering until enough of them have leveraged enough influence where they don't have to, which is why the concept of title was so important. But they couldn't get it done because certain artists hell out. Different conversation. The Sadious system is going to survive centers because you still want to make movies with Warner Bros. You still want to make movies with Fox. You still want to make movies with Disney. They have resources and a distribution mechanism

that is going to be premium to what filmmakers want. So number one, that was a little weird when that narrative was put out there. And then number two, when you saw sinners be legitimately a $50 million domestic opening for an R-rated horror movie on Easter weekend. And then you saw it in blackness.

Ruted in blackness with black people dancing and fucking and biting and eating vagina. Okay. And you see that as a 100% win plus the critical acclaim. To watch the trades come back and kind of hate was odd. It was like they were doing the work for the town. Is it odd though? is it odd because you just named all these things that this movie is and on top of that it is critically acclaimed.

Like it's like 98% you know because a lot of people said and I think we talked about it on this podcast when this movie comes out will it live up to the height? So far it has. Yeah for sure. Absolutely like without a doubt people who have seen it. I watched it. I was like it absolutely does to the point where I need more.

Listen guys, this is me. talking. I want to see a movie again. I can count on one hand how many movies I've wanted to see again. Yeah. Maybe a couple of fingers on that hand. I want, because the depth of it, the understanding of it, I know that I will get more the second time around watching it. That is a great movie. It leaves you wanting more to where I have to go back to it. So it lived up to it. So is it odd or is it just who is behind this movie and what it represents? Yeah. Because you just gave the

just as you just gave the example of Quentin Tarantino. To me, it makes sense for a Ryan Coogler to ask for this for his track record. Also, he wrote, directed, and produced this movie. It's not like he just came in

on somebody else's project. It makes sense to ask for the things he did when he can guarantee you a success. He's like batting at, what do you call it 300? He's batting a thousand. 300 is good, though.

300 is good. I know it's good. I did know that. But I felt like that wasn't the saying. Yeah, it's bad in a thousand. Okay. It's bad in a thousand. Right.

I'm going to stop. This is terrible. Before we move off this, shout out to the homie Ben Stiller. What did he say? Who called out this headline on Twitter. Did he? Ben Stiller.

Ben Stiller. What? Mal I. I know you don't think they exist. Well, I fuck a Ben. But you don't think they exist. I'm just saying. And I'm like, go ahead.

Shout out to Ben Stiller, who called this out on Twitter and was like, why would you guys frame the headline like this? Patrick Schwarzenegger did too. Oh, Patrick. Oh, Patty Swartz. Saw my Coachella. You saw Patrick Schwartz? What did you say? What did you think?

I didn't. But I was with Justin and he, of course, everybody loves Justin. So Patty Schwartz came over and said what up to Justin? Mm-hmm. Chicken nigger knows everybody like that. Everybody. So did Patty Schwartz, was he a big guy? Average type?

Yeah. So like Arnold Schwarzenegger is so big, like a big dude. So Patty Schwartz, I always wondered whether or not he was going to be like a big dude. You know, the other boy, he looks just like Schwarzenegger. Yeah. Just in Vienna. The outside boy always looks just like the daddy. So there's no deny.

You can't deny it. The outside boy, you might, the ones that's right in the household eating dinner. getting it together, they might, they might not. But that outside boy, that always looks just like him. Be around town looking at him like, hey, you know what that is, huh? Boy or girl. The girls, me look at like the daddy too. Yeah, you'd be like, hey, that's true.

Like, that's John's son. I'm like, what? Like, yeah, it looks just like him. He's like, okay, it's my cousin. I'm going to go say hello. Boy, don't you get out of this motherfucking call? Your auntie will kill you. Poor thing.

Come from very weird places. Ugh. You guys Just broke Donnie? What? Shannon Sharp is sued for a sexual assault

and battery. This just came down this morning. Civil complaint was filed in Nevada. It alleges that Sharp committed assault, sexual assault, battery, and sexual battery,

and that he engaged in the intentional infliction of emotional distress. The plaintiff claims that they had a rocky consensual relationship that lasted about two years and that he recorded

their sexual activities without her permission or knowledge. and was sharing it with others. It also alleges that he confronted the plaintiff in October after he accidentally live streamed having sex with a woman who was not the plaintiff and she attempted to separate from him. She alleges that forcible sex would happen against her consent. And another alleged incident that happened in January, so a few months ago, that Sharp had

unprotected sex with the plaintiff despite her efforts to get him either to stop or to wear a condom. The complaint seeks a minimum of $50 million from Sharp and she is represented by Micah Nash or Micah Nash, I believe, and Tony Busby. Yeah. Now that I didn't see. Yep. The Buzzman.

He's back at it. Buzzman's back. Can't stop him. Can't stop the busy. Can't stop the bus. Rachel, don't let that champagne get you to laugh in that shit. You're supposed to be laughing at. Okay, so there's two things that's interesting to me about this. Number one, Shannon Sharp has just finished his deal

with Colin Kyle Hurd's The Volume. And the Volume. The Volume Sports, Volume Sports. Colin Kyle Hurd. That's what Shannon Sharp was with. So that deal is over. Shanan Sharp is now a free agent. It was reported earlier that he was looking for a deal upwards of $100 million. This is last week that this was reported. Shanin Sharper is looking for a $100 million deal. Wow. this week, this comes out. Is there any corollary between those two things? And let me tell you why we are getting past litigating whether or not this happened or not, because there's no fucking way for us to know.

There's no way for us to know whether or not this happened or not. Correct. However, for this to come up now after Shannon Sharp, it was in all the traits that he was looking for a $100 million deal, does that say anything to you? How can I answer that? What I'm saying is this. What I'm saying is... Did the Colin Coward Company own...

What is this show? What is Shannon's show called? Club Shayshay. Club Shay. Yes. Did he... Did it own that? Colin Cowherd...

Yes. The volume, Colin Carl Hurd's company, Shannon Sharp was under them, yes. Oh. How do I know? It's hard to say that. I guess this is what I'm saying. One or two things happening to me. Either they got slapped with this, Shannon and his people, a week ago, two weeks ago, or whatever, and then they started

talking about in the trades that we were looking for a $100 million deal to soften the blow for when this was announced to the public to say, hey, this is clearly a shakedown attempt from Tony Busby who already has a terrible reputation based upon the dismissal in the Jay-Z lawsuit. Or Tony Busby and Michael Nash are fucking idiots. Because after a week of speculation, even if the speculation didn't mainstream itself, about how much money Shannon Sharp was going to make

now that he's a free agent, to drop this week or to have this break this week, looks like a clear money grab from Tony Busby, and it actually diminishes whatever the facts of this case are with very poor timing. So I don't know. In this particular situation, when you hear this and you look at this, you go, okay, people are talking about how Rich Chan Sharp is going to be, and then boom, here comes a sexual assault case.

I mean, Tony Busby has a track record that makes him look like he's what you would refer to as an ambulance chaser, right? he goes, he follows the money. But also his reputation has taken a huge blow because of what happened with the Diddy case. Cases. Cases. Yeah.

Diddy or Jay-Z? Well, J-Z, but then also like he's not licensed in that district to practice. And so I feel like it wasn't just the Jay-Z. I mean, it's the it's the Diddy case, Jay-Z Because remember he files- You're right, you're right, you're right.

So, but that was, wasn't the only case, I think, that was affected by it. So I just, it's hard to say, the only thing that does seem to be consistent is that Tony Busby goes after big people. I can't say what's true or what's not, but he goes after big people where there's a big money grab. Yeah. Which is what you would call an ambulance chaser. He follows the money. He follows the attention. You know, people might say that about other attorneys, too, that are popular that we know. Like, if you know the name of an attorney, it's because they handle big clients and go after big cases. They garner a lot of attention, and they like to talk to the media all the time.

In this case, it's just so hard to say. I mean, I read it. You know, what was the phrase that Toronto used? Like, I, like, this is just an opportunity for them to do the research and to vet out whether or not this is true. But it's hard for me to have an opinion about it. If you are someone looking for justice. that has been

aggressed by someone in this way. Is it smart to hire Tony's Buzzbee at this point? Okay, so this is what I will say. When you file a lawsuit like this, the money is based off of, you don't pay the attorney as you go by hourly, right? The money is based off of what you make.

So sometimes... What you win? What you win. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. So sometimes these smaller attorneys have to partner with a bigger, person because they can't afford the cost to prepare for the case.

That happens a lot. Good information. So you're saying that particularly like the Micah Nash guy, he goes to Tony Busby. He might. Like Tony Busby, obviously is a track record, has made money, has had success no matter what you feel about him. So he might need that kind of support either to garner attention with a name like Tony Busby, good or bad.

He gets attention, but also to be able to afford. fighting this case. You have to pay court costs. You have to pay for research. You have to pay for your time. There's just so much that goes into it that if it's the defense, they bill you every month.

They're charging you for every little thing that they do. That doesn't happen in these cases. If you're Sharon Sharp, I wonder, how do you respond to this? You don't. You let your attorneys. So you don't say nothing. Well, remember I was very critical

about what Jay-Z did. Remember, Jay-Z had the tweet. Jay-Z put out the statement. Not the same thing. And I'll tell you why. Okay. In that case, Jay-Z is being hyper-communicative

when we don't hear very much from him at all. Correct. We are inundated with Shannon Sharp every day. We see him on first take, then we see him on club, Shay-Shay, then we see him on nightcap. He is constantly and continuously in cultural conversation.

Okay. And to the point that you just named, out of all those things you name where he has a platform, it's Nightcap where he gets personal. Certainly. ESPN, Club Shea, that's about other people. Right. That's about him opining on other people's experiences.

But Nightcap, he reveals personal information about himself. Certainly. So, yes, to your point, that is different. And if he were to say anything, Nightcap would be the place to say him. Nightcap would be the place to say it. But it doesn't seem like the audience that he's cultivated is going to allow him to stay silent on this,

he's probably going to have to say something. I don't think so. I think there's just a lot of excuse and deference given to celebrities and that people who are well-liked. Shannon Sharp is a person who is universally well-liked. You think?

Yes. It is why he could get away with doing what he did on Instagram and people saying it was promotional, people saying it wasn't an accident, people saying that he did it to refute rumors that are about him, whatever reason it was,

it came and it went very quickly. And it was a big deal when it happened. That is because I think he is universally liked. And I think people are going to be like, you know what, it's there, our antennas are up, but we're going to wait for more information before they start accusing him of things

or the alleged victim. I think the things that complicated are threefold. well actually there's only one real thing that complicates it uh to two one is how much we hear from Shannon Sharp and how much we hear from Shannon Sharp about everything including the Instagram thing that happened if you guys don't know we're talking about

you know Donnie mentioned it when he was giving his rundown Shannon Sharps interlude that was captured audio wise and a little video but you couldn't see anything on Instagram number two the first take of it. That's a Disney corporation.

That is not family friendly, but that's as mainstream as it gets. And you wonder, nothing's been proven against Shannon Sharp. This is an allegation. However, you wonder how comfortable they are with this hanging over his head

and dragging out as long as something like this would drag out and it not being addressed at all. You wonder how comfortable they are with that. Yeah. I wonder now if that Instagram thing has any effect on the way people look at Shannon and whether that is in people's minds at all as they consider whether or not something like this actually happened. Well, but even if you, okay, to the latter point, that, that, what we heard on Instagram was clearly consensual.

Yeah. So what is being accused in this lawsuit is not. Right. What is being accused is. And even they referenced this. It's kind of built on that accidental thing happened while we had our thing off and on as well. So I don't think that people think about that and compare to this. At least I don't.

Because I'm like, that was clearly consensual. And whether it was an accident or purposeful, it was consensual. There's no question about that. Now when you hear this, it's just like, hmm, okay. For me, I'm like, I want to hear more information come out about this. I want there to be a, I did not know the Tony Busby of it, but I want there to be a thorough investigation despite it. What about Reverend Al?

Target CEO met with Reverend Al Sharpton, whose National Action Network has encouraged consumers to avoid U.S. retailers that are scaling back their DEI initiatives. Sharkton called the meeting with CEO Brian Cornell, very constructive and candid. He also said, I'm going to inform our allies, including Reverend Dr. Jamal Bryant,

of our discussion, what my feelings are, and we'll go from there. So Reverend Al goes to meet with Target and says it was constructive and candid. Gave us nothing. He gave us nothing. You know. He gave us.

Man, look, I always have to do the obligatory shout-out. So shout-out Reverend Sharpton, who has been doing this work for a very, very long time. Shout out Reverend Sharpton. I don't know why I get the feeling that these niggas be dicking us around them. I mean, you know, he goes to talk to the target people. He comes back and he says that he talked to Reverend Dr. Jamal Bryan about it, which is great. Jamal Bryant, he organized part of the boycott. But don't we all need to be in conversation about this to a deeper degree and a deeper level?

The people that are being asked to like not go to Target, right, to not go to a place that's very convenient for them and stuff like that, Don't they need to have the information about how this is going, what the specific ask is. Now, some of that stuff is on. They've talked about the Target Fast and stuff like that. There's information out there for you. And then another part of this is just cosmetic to me. That part. That's the part.

Like, don't we need some new niggas? Well, hold on for a second. It's like Reverend Al Sharpton B been at this for a long time. Just having him go and sit down. with the target people and having a conversation on behalf of everyone. And it makes the whole thing look a little sleazy to me. And I'm not sure why. Well, I mean, if not him who, that's what I will say to combat what you said.

You know, he also demanded like, at least with PepsiCo, he was like demanded that they meet with him within three weeks of him. you know, he's got, it's not just him, he's got the whole national action network behind him. So I would say if not for him, who? Now, you know, to your point, Dr. Jamal Bryant, he did have the 40-day target boycott and he had the Targetfast.org and, you know, that's a younger person coming up and no, he doesn't have the action network behind him, but he does have a church and people that follow him, they could spread the word and promote what he's doing. The reason I said that part to me on the cosmetic thing is, I don't need to know you had a conversation until there is actual work that is happening where things are changing or something's going to be done. That's what feels cosmetic for me.

For me to know that you're having this sit down and you're having this conversation feels performative. Tell me what came out of it. tell me what is going to change. Otherwise, it's fluff. That's what I don't like. To me, you're giving yourself a pat on the back by saying, I demanded this, I organize this meeting, and we're going to sit down. The actual people don't give a fuck that you had at the meeting.

What we care about is, is the change going to happen or not? And then we can move accordingly. I think in 2025, we are past the point. of you saying, telling us what you're doing. We want to see it and feel it. It's why the election went the way that it did. People need to feel it. So this, to me, falls on deaf ears.

So these are the four demands of jamal Bryant's targetfast.org. One, honor the $2 billion pledge to the black business community through products, services, and black media buys. And was that made after they decided to get away with the DEI initiative? after. Okay. Two, deposit $250 million amongst dollars amongst any of our 23 black banks. So they want an investment into black banks. Three, completely restoring the franchise commitment to DEI. For pipeline community centers at 10 HBCUs to teach retail business at entry level. Nice. Okay.

You have four clear-cut demands. Now, if I'm looking at these, I'm thinking no company is going to do all four of these, right? However, there's something above these demands. It's very important to say. Power concedes nothing without a demand. So it doesn't make any sense to boycott blindly. Sure. There has to be some type of pot of goal at the end of the rainbow.

Yeah. So these are good things. What I would want to know from Revenal, or whomever is going to do it, is how much progress was made on any of these? Yeah. What was the stance that they took? And when you say that it was productive. Constructive and candid.

Good. That's fine. Constructive and candid. Was that constructive and candid for you? Right. Or was that constructive and candid for the boycotters? Also, we should say there's a list of by-com. and boycotts here. These are the bycots, just so you guys know, places you should buy from.

Ben & Jerry's, Costco, Coca-Cola, Duncan Donuts, J.P. Morgan. Boycott watch list here is Aldi, Amazon, American Airlines, Bank of America, Best Buy, Boeing, Caterpillar, Dell Technology, Ford. God damn. General Motors, Goldman Sachs, Harley Davidson, IMDB, John Deere, Lowe's, Home Improvement, Lowe's, McDonald's, Meta. So we fucked this up, we're on Instagram. Coors, Molson Coors, Sam's Club, Starbucks, Target, Toyota. Toyota tractor supply company Walmart

Walmart Supercenter Whole Foods Whole Foods Whole Foods Market Zappos What the fuck is Zappos Shoes

Oh shoes Okay so those are all the companies that holding them accountable right there So those are all the companies that they're looking at right now I'm not sure I don't know how successful this will be, but I do know that it's very important to indulging it.

It's also very important to know exactly what the companies are willing to do to address this. What I do know from some of the companies that you listed is that some companies have announced, because I think one of the things I read about what Reverend Al Sharpton was having the conversation with is why they got rid of the DEI, and is it politically based? And, which it obviously is. I mean, the timing you can't deny. But I do know that some of these companies got rid of the programs

and restructured them to where some people don't lose their jobs. They rename them. Interesting. Do you know of any of those companies? Yeah, but I'm not going to say, like, there's a reason that they did it the way that they did it.

So, I mean, and some of the reports have come out. Like, they didn't, people didn't want to fire them, So they changed the title of the person. So the person is still there. Or they say, oh, we're getting rid of our DEI program, but we're just couching it under something different. Right. So that is happening.

So something is. And I don't think it's important to acknowledge because then it brings to focus. So it looks bad on the surface, right? But the people aren't being impacted internally. Right. And some people, they did this to not draw the ire of the Trump administration. Correct. At the same time.

I don't know if that's, I don't think that's Target. Right, but some companies it is. But some on the list. Yes. It's America's favorite segment now. Donnie? Glaze of the week, glaze of the week, you're on somebody's meat. It's the glaze of the week.

Glaze of the week, glaze of the week, glaze of the week, you're sucking dick. On behalf of the black community, I would like to apologize to the parents of Austin Metcalf. for making a hero out of the young man that killed your son. I apologize that there are so few fathers around and so few male figures around to teach the black community about emotional discipline, about what's right from wrong, about emotional regulation, about not making a hero out of a thug and a criminal.

I apologize on behalf of the black community because they are the ones that are raising money for, your son's killer. They are the ones that are funding this new lavish lifestyle that your son's killer is living. I apologize on behalf of the black community because they are so confused about again what's right and what's wrong that in some weird twisted sense of racial solidarity, they would celebrate the young man that killed your child in cold blood. I apologize on behalf of the black community because you don't deserve to see this. What should we say on behalf of the black community?

I can't say anything on behalf of the black community. I do want to say this, though. I'm not sure. I can't say anything on behalf of the black community. I'm one guy. Okay. We have never seen dick riding like this before. I'm serious.

This is the type of dick riding that makes you want to ask, yo, who is this nigga? Like you ever been at a place somewhere Where you see somebody on somebody else's dick We were at upscale In Baton Rouge This is like 2002 Maybe 2001 We're in upscale in Baton Rouge

Maybe 2003 And there's a fight that happens And one of the people that was involved in the fight Was Rohan Davy Do you remember who that is? It's an LSU quarterback and one of the guys takes the mic and he goes up to the DJ booth

and he says, hey man, why y'all trying to get at Rohan like that? He just got his starting job. We should be celebrating and we all looking around like, oh my God, who is this, nigga?

Who has the audacity to dick ride like this in front of such fine females? Who could you be to stoop to this level of dick riding. I don't know this, nigga. I've never heard of him before in my life. There are 90 million white men in America and like over 100 million white women. He dick rode and clit-surfed every single white person in the entire.

And then he did it on our behalf. I would like to say something else. I would like to say that there's a difference between being black and being a part of the black community. A hundred percent. Community is shared values, purpose, and understanding. Just because you're black doesn't mean you're a part of the black community. Exactly. It doesn't mean that at all.

So I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what on God's green earth could have made this guy get up and juggle the balls of white people please sir may I have another in this fashion there's absolutely no pride there's no understanding of blackness here

he's just a vacant void shell of cuck and it's disgusting I was disgusting we've talked about glazing before you know we talked about the Bill Maher thing Bill's this is a power play for him I'm not letting him off the hook but it's a power play

he's trying to get closer changes possible, whatever. This guy just got on his knees. This is a true glazing. This is not glazing. This is Bukaki of the week. Do you know what Bukaki is? Yeah.

Are you sure? Yeah. What is Bukaki? I don't know if you know. I don't think I do. I don't think you look it up. Type it in your search engine right now. No, that's a work computer.

Do it on your phone. Yeah, do it on your... Well, it's part of the podcast. Yeah, type in Bukaki right now. B-U-K-K-A-K-E. Look it up. You know how to spell it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I definitely don't know what it is. Click it. And then go to images. Oh, wow. I definitely didn't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Thank God for Camille coming on.

This guy got Bukaki by the entire white community. No, he let the whole white community Bukaki him. This is disgusting. By the way, this is, when we talk about black technology, cultural technology, this is some, whatever. I don't even go. I was legitimately taken aback by the gall of this nigga. But you know the history of Rob Smith.

You know who he is. First off, you said you can't speak on behalf of the black community. One thing I will say is we understand what community means, specifically rooted in blackness. So on behalf of the black community, shut the fuck up. That's my apology rating. That's where it is. This isn't an apoll-

I don't know who he's representing other than Rob Smith. Like, start your own community, start your own place. I don't even know. I know he identifies as a conservative, but what he has been given back from other conservatives

was what he deemed as a hate crime. Remember, he was heckled? Oh! Is this the same guy that went to the thing and they told this, nigga, what was up? He's a gay, black conservative. They made racist, in homophobic comments to him.

He identifies as homeless when it comes to a political party. They turn their backs on him. Yet here he is now saying on behalf of the black community, this, this and this. This man stands for nothing and he belongs nowhere other than in his own space. He can't stand. He's kneeling getting the glades. Well, I guess that's it. By the way, can I tell you somebody else who doesn't agree with Rob Smith's view?

categorization of this entire thing, his characterization, shall I say of this entire thing? Austin Metcalf's dad. Austin Metcalf's father chided a guy named Jake Lang, who's running for U.S. Senate in Florida and had a Protect White Americans protest in Friscoe, Texas.

This was a recording from that protest where Austin Metcalf's dad called in and rebut this guy for making this entire thing about some sort of racial divide. Donnie, play that. This country is wrong. Why can't you sand that and say with that with that?

Maybe you can. Would you be willing to stand by me in a press conference or in an individual interview and talk about this issue that is larger than Austin at this point? God rest a beautiful young man's soul that would have been one of our strongest voices if he was still alive today. Yes, I am, sir.

That's called white guilt. No, let it talk. You're creating. creating more Austin Metcalfs with your weakness, sir. You are creating more Austin Metcalfs with your weakness. You are being weak. I got to be honest with you about that, sir. You're being weak.

Condem your son's killer and the culture that caused it. I want to hear more. I want to hear more. The guy clearly says, stop using my son's picture, stop using my son's death to further this. Right. And what does he get from the people

that claim to care so much about white lives? He gets rebuke. So look, there's going to be more that's going to come out about Austin Metcalf and Carmelo Anthony. And a lot of it's not going to be easy to hear. And a lot of it will trigger you along racial lines. Of course it will. Of course. Here, High Learning, we've pledged to react to the information and the evidence in this case as it's made available to us.

Okay. However, Rob Smith, Jesus Christ. Well, the guy in that video might have been a little bit worse because the guy... Well, no, you didn't hear the black man. He goes, black man here. Your son's doing... You didn't see that? Oh, the guy was in the video was black?

No, no, no. Jake Lang, who was talking about him, who first said your son could have been one of our strongest voices and then contradicts himself by saying you're creating more Austin Metcalfs to the father who said, please stop using my son. to profit off of. There was a tall black man standing behind Jake laying in the video who says, black man here, what you're doing is wrong. Where are they getting you guys from?

Black man, black man. What's going on with y'all? See how this happens? See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying? This is the problem right here. The problem is we're on the same side and now you're digging. I'm asking for perspective.

That's obviously not you. But we've talked about this before. The hatred you have to have for yourself. So there's no black women that do that. Oh, no, we got Candice Owens. Candice Owens is the picture. She is on a pedestal for it for black women. So why make it a black man thing?

Well, because the issue right now is black man. It's not black men. No, it's not just black men. But we're talking about Rob Smith, who was literally heckled by these people for being who he is, black and gay and still stands in it. There's a black man standing behind Jake Lang who says, who says black man here, I agree with Jake Lane. Doesn't matter what your gender is. It's the self, the way some people hate who they see in the mirror. I wish this is a topic

we would talk to Camille Lewis about. Maybe we'll bring somebody on about this. It is nothing but a self-hatred, which is equally disgusting and sad, that you look at yourself and you hate yourself to the point where you want to align with people who hate you as well, but you feel so much better attaching yourself to that person because you hate yourself. I don't want to make that into a black man thing, though. No, I just said it's women, too. Shout out to Candace Jones. Right.

So, look, there's only one thing that I saw from black guys that was worse than that. Tizzy put up on his, his, uh, TikTok, this video of this guy, I don't know where they were. I don't know if you guys saw this. And he was like calling these black women the N-word because these ladies apparently rebuffed him when he tried to grab one of them from behind. Like kind of dissed him. Who's Tizzy?

Tizzy, E-N-T. He's like a guy who, like, calls out racist and stuff. Okay. And this guy's calling these black women the N-word, nigger, nigger, nigger, all right, the whole deal. And it's back. And you can see this guy's he's a hairdresser or he's a from San Diego or something like that. And he's black. Donnie, look this up.

call these women the N-word and launch this racial attack and they don't really do anything. I'm like, homies, my guys. Can we at least get a, hey, yo, chill talking to them like that? That's wild. If you're not going to be Batman in that situation,

can we at least get a, hey, chill talking to her, chill talking to them like that. Talk to them. Like, you guys got to intervene. If you see a black lady in trouble, look, let me say something real quick. Very important to say. because I always have to say this, right?

Because standing up for black women is just like a, it's a dangerous thing. Why? People don't like it. We do. People don't like it. People don't like when you stand up for black women. When you stand up for black women,

it irritates people. Why? I haven't worked that out. And when you say people who are, because black women, we appreciate it. I know that you do. So who do? Does it irritate black men?

No, no, no, no. I'm just saying there's an overall irritation because let me tell you what I mean. So whenever you say, hey, don't treat black ladies like this or stand up for black ladies or get involved, people then litigate whether or not you're doing, okay? Which is fair. Now, I want to say this real quick so that everybody knows. I or no black man that I know, um, am the perfect. white knight or black night to say, leave black women alone. If you litigate my past, you are going to see inconsistencies, you're going to see failures.

You're going to see times where I've hurt black women. You're going to see times where I've failed black women. You're going to see times where I've been less than up to the task of being held to a standard that I want. But you'll see that in every single aspect of my life. you're going to see me saying, yo, protect black women where I've made black women cry. You're going to see me saying, hey, protect black women

to where I've been close to people who don't do the same. You're going to see all kinds of things that say, hey, you're a hypocrite. The question is this. If you have the power to self-scout yourself, and to be useful to the women in your community, the black women in your community, do you want to do it?

If the conversation is about, hey, we don't want to see black women in a situation where there is a specific danger to them in America. When they carry babies, when they're in relationships, when they're on dates, when they go for job interviews,

we don't want to see them in specific danger. So can we have to have, have a conversation as brothers, as people who have been formed, loved, and protected by these women, can we have a conversation about how we do better A and how society does better B? Or how society does better A and how we do better B. Can we have a conversation about that? A conversation that's not going to be easy for us and a conversation that's not going to be easy for society.

Can we talk about it? When we continuously get back, no, you're not good enough. No, you've done this. You've done that. I know you. I know you. I know you stepped out on your girl. I know you've done it.

I know this. You're not good enough. You're not good enough. When no one is good enough to have the conversation, do you know what it starts to feel like? What? That the conversation isn't good enough. It starts to feel like no one wants to have the conversation

because they want black women to continue to be the emotional workhorses of America. They want them to continuously be in the same situation. And look, man, I can tell you right now, there's going to be like a shit ton of people that's going to be like, Van fucked up in this point, Van fucked up in that point, Van fucked up in this, this is Van, I know Van, all of that.

I would be honest with you 100%. I want to see black women safe, healthy, and happy. and we got to talk about it. If I'm not the right guy to bring the conversation, if, if, let's, let's do this. Let's find the guy who can do it. Okay, let's do this. Because everybody gets torn apart.

Let's find the guy who is okay for him to do it. Can I tell you this? It's not about finding the guy who's okay to do it. It's finding the people who are actually willing to listen and then receive it. Well, and then act on it. I got you. But let's, let's, let's, let's, say it's not me. Cool. Let's, I want a, I want a nationwide search to, maybe it should be Jason.

I want, I want, I want, I want, I want a nationwide search to find the guy that it's okay for him to defend black women. Because everybody else, we ain't shit enough. So I'm going to, during this whole time, I'm going to be better, all right? But I want to, I want to, I'm tired of hearing this excuse. That's fine. Let's find somebody who's up. Y'all should have stood up and said something for that fucking woman when that nigger was yelling at her. And I don't give a fuck, y'all, y'all should have stood up and said something to that guy when he was fucking yelling at them women. Y'all should have said something.

I've got to see this clip. And that's the bottom line. It, look, you should have said something. Ashley, this last comment is for you. They should have said something. All right. Let's go, Donnie. All right, last topic. Colorado head coach Dion Sanders spoke Thursday about the recent announcement that the University of Colorado was going to retire the jersey numbers of Travis Hunter and his son Shador Sanders.

And it had people upset. This is what Coach Prime had to say. Same thing. For sure, it's wrong, right? How long did we wait? I say we because I'm a part of CUNA. How long did we wait? 23 years after his season. After his what? After his assignment. Yeah. How many years after his day? one. Bless someone. So we gotta die to get right now.

Ain't nobody ain't nobody saying that in the church right now. Everybody got something to say otherwise. Donnie, cut it off. Prime got me. I'm with Prime now. I'm a feeling. I'm sorry. I thought this was almost your glaze of the week.

It almost was. And what changed? Prime got me, man. Because he said, let the church say amen. No, it's because I heard so many people talking about Guys like Dion Figures, Rishon Salam, Cordell Stewart, all of those guys who should have had their jerseys retired in Colorado. And they should have.

They should have had their jerseys retired before, if not the Hodgson trophy winner, but definitely before Shador Sanders. Right. Those guys were, you know, some of them are national champions, all that. But the reality is they didn't. Okay. And now the way I look at it, I'm like, well, shit. we got to have a conversation about whether or not Shador Sanders had a career.

Well, that's the, that's the conversation. That's the conversation. Nobody's questioning Travis Hunter. Nobody's questioning what he represented, what he, how different he was, what he accomplished in college, getting the highest honor, how he played both sides of the field,

his work ethic. No one would question Travis Hunter. He did things that you've never seen a Colorado football player, football player do, but also what you just haven't seen a collegiate player do, period. There's no question. But the Shador of it at all, not saying he didn't have a great career at Colorado, not saying he didn't do things that we hadn't seen a buff do.

But you can't ignore the relation with Dion and Shador. And if Shador wasn't Deon's son, we wouldn't be here. And that's just the reality. Of course, it's subjective as to who gets their number retired. And I will say, if you look at the list of NCAA players that have had their numbers retired, some did have them retired right after they finished. It was more common back in the day in the earlier years of collegiate football than it is now. Right.

It's not uncommon. We just don't see it that often. So this is what I'll say about your door when you look at it. So he's Johnny United's Golden Arm Award, 2024. That award is for the best quarterback in the country. Big 12 offensive player of the year, 2024. Big 12 sucks. Jesus Christ.

First team, all Big 12, 2012, 2024. So those are his accolades. Oh, we're not. We're deaf? As a Colorado player, yeah. I mean, he has more accolades. Wait, wait a minute. Yeah.

Okay, so look, he has more accolades. He won a Jerry Rice Award in 2021. That is the best offensive player in the Swack or in Division 1A. No, no, okay. So it's the most outstanding freshman player, shall I say I think the Walter Payton Award is the other one. The most outstanding freshman player in the FCS.

He also won the SWAC offensive player of the year, SWAC freshman of the year, the Deacon Jones Trophy, first team all swag, second team all SWAC. If you look at his entire college career, obviously laudable. As a Colorado player, his accolades are. Big 12, offensive player of the year.

First team, all Big 12. John United is Golden Arm Award. Whether or not you think that's enough to get your number retired is one thing. However, if you are going to retire the number, he also is, I'm looking at it right now. 9 plus 4 is 13, 7 plus 4. He's 13 and 11 as a starting quarterback at Colorado. So a lot of people would say That's not good enough

No A lot of people would say that that's not 13 out of 11 13 and 11 Right above 50 nigger you drunk Oh Okay

Numbers don't Rachel doesn't do numbers When she's drunk I'm I heard of so sad I was like Can't take it Okay, okay.

Fine, whatever. So he, and so he, and so look, but listening to it is like, would he, would a quarterback with those numbers eventually have gotten their number retired? Probably. And if you're going to do it, prom saying, why wait until whatever he can't control? He actually changed my mind on it. And look, I've been a critic of Dion Sanders and some of the way that the media has

handled a prom's coaching career with kid gloves and some of the hype surrounding Colorado, not a critic of him directly, but a critic of the program and what it means and all of that stuff. But when I see it now, it's fuck it. They want to retire the number, retire the number. Okay. This is what I will say. This isn't being a critic of Dion or anything with the program. There's no, the only reason he's doing this because it's his son.

I'm sorry. True. And that's period. That's on anything. Period. That's it. I gotta go. We gotta go.

But no, seriously. He's only doing this because it's his son. He's only doing it because it's a son. I have to do a whole other podcast after this. Let's go. Okay. Okay. He did it for Travis Hunter as well, though.

Well, I already made the case for Travis. That makes sense. I'm not saying that Shador's not good. It's, you can't separate the fact that that's the sun. And that's why he's doing. Yeah, sure. Okay. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech.

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40 grams of protein made to keep up with whatever comes next new sweet green wraps hit different order now at order dot sweetgreen.com yeah quincy what up quincey this is y'all's first time meeting right we never met before outside the dms i got the jalen brown on the whole nine bruh it's it's unacceptable hi quincy what is up my man um my brother you got a lot going on right now Tell us a little bit about your documentary, your life story. Tell us a little bit about who. Is this real right now?

Yeah. We all right in. So the documentary that we did, the Concierge effect, is basically kind of my life story, like how I got to where I am today. And that place is, I think, being the best quarterback trainer in the world, but people a lot of times associate me with black quarterbacks. So I had to go through a lot of things to get to this point, but that's the story essentially.

How did this come about? Like, how did you, because not everybody gets a whole documentary on them, let alone on Hulu. Because there are so many quarterback coaches. There's a lot of quarterback coaches. There's a lot of quarterback coaches. There's very few people who train,

like, NFL level quarterback. Gotcha. Yeah, I only know one. There's a few. I know you probably seen a few because you was trying to get right to throw the football. Yeah, we're going to get it. We're going to talk about that. You see the football over there.

We're going to talk about that. Yeah, I'm going to help you out. I mean, yeah, I reached out for your help. I responded. Like a long time ago, like, I think that it will be powerful for you guys to take a 45-year-old man and show that if he can get the mechanics down, if he could become Y-stick, what? Okay, we're coming out 10% of this twice like.

Y, stick, X smoke, X-go, X-Dig laser. You know what I mean? If I can get there, then anybody can get there. I think we could get you in a reputable place. That's what I'm talking about. Well, I want to see how, yeah, I want to see you throw. We'll, I want to see if you're a natural. We're going to get there.

But how did this documentary come about? Because I was saying, not everybody gets a documentary about him. And Van can attest to this because he pitches and he's in rooms and stuff all the time. It's not easy. I think, well, I got a really good manager who was like, his name Z. He hit the pavement. It was like just hitting people up. I got reached out to a few years ago by Tom Brady's production company about doing a doc.

and then that didn't go. No, hell no. Times too old for me to be trained. That means you are too. There we go. We got our answer. Damn, Quincy. I'm just talking about at his peak.

But then I think that kind of got thwarted. Situation with Deshawn happened. Made a lot of things I was doing. Like, those things stopped. And then we came back to it. And then people started to hear my story. And I think that's what really attracted under me. It's like a story of perseverance more than just like he got it.

So you were the quarterback coach or are the quarterback coach for Deshawn Watson? Work with Deshawn. I work here. Deshawn, a few others, a lot of others. So then you're saying that the very serious allegations against him affected your career. Yeah, of course. I think people really tightly associate us. Like you've seen us together.

It's like my little brother. Interesting. Interesting that you would say that even now because a lot of people, their perspective of him has changed from him being like just to be honest with you at some point the most all-American clean-cut quarterback ever

to now a lot of people look at Deshawn Watson as a sexual predator yeah and I think like when you hear my story and you watch the doc you'll see like I've been abandoned like I've been in situations where the people that I was relying on or counting on or needed

some help from they left me And who would I be to do that to him? Like, I know you go through things. Like, I know we make mistakes. I'm going to hold you accountable to whatever level I know of or don't know of. But my job is to be there for you. And I'm a friend first. Like, Morrison and a quarterback.

And, like, his story is difficult for me because I know how much he did to get there. I know how much he's at now. And I know how a lot of other people, like, look at him and see him. but I know the person. Right in the person I know is like a really good person. Okay. So this is what I'm going to do. Because we're going to move on from this

and we're going to continue to talk about your documentary. But I have to say this. All right. A lot of people are going to listen to that and they're going to be triggered by this entire conversation. If in fact, if in fact the allegations against Deshawn Watson are true, right? You know him.

I get it. Do you see the point in some people saying that that would be, we all have people that have earned and I get my asking it on this podcast all the time about Vans friends, right? So I'm not putting you on a hot seat, but it's up so we're going to talk about it.

Do you see people saying that if in fact that we're going to talk about dozens and dozens and dozens of allegations of Deshaun Watson exposing themselves, ejaculating on, all that type of stuff? Do you see the point in some people saying maybe that's somebody you should distance yourself from? I can understand any perspective

somebody may have. I get that. Yeah. But you have a brother, you have sisters? Yeah, for sure. If they did something, like let's say you knew

they did something fucked up. Yeah. What would you do? It's a question. I've asked myself about a lot of people. I think that oftentimes, like, people forget,

like, they're human too. Like, if he made these mistakes, let's just say he did. I'm still not going to abandon him. It's my brother. You know what I'm so?

So I was 15 years old. My dad leaves me in a hotel room. Like, just leaves. I'm stuck there. Four days. Like, I got left. I'm not doing that to nobody else. That's not who I am.

Yeah. And I'm not saying, I'm not like, yeah, I'm not saying what he did was cool. Well, like, fair enough. Just, you know, just broaching it here. Fair enough. I get it. I understand it. Look, I understand it deeper than I think a lot of people do.

They have been people that I've had to leave behind. But once again, you know, I've told other people that there's, some people that I've been too close to that have done things that are a porn taking lives and all of that stuff. Although you know that there's going to be a lot that comes with that. And you're okay with that. I got to be. There you go.

Yeah, you probably, I mean. I get this all the time. Yeah, like, you're open Twitter. Every single day, the things that I see. Yeah. Oftentimes about him. So let's get back to you. Let's get back to you.

So you call, like, building off of what you were saying, just like as a friend and who you are as a person and what you've been through, you describe yourself as a quarterback coach and a developer. How does that set you apart as a coach? Like, what is it that makes you different? Explain the developer part of it. I think that the thing people know about me is that I care about more than anything else.

And I think that allows me to coach you hard because I care about you as a person. I know about these kids' family. I know about the girls. I know about everything. And they can talk to me about this thing. So I can coach you really, really hard because you know that I really care about you.

Like, as a person. So I think that's what, that's what separates me as like a developer. I feel like I help. develop young men. This is the most important position in the world. These people shape their high schools. They shape their college campuses. And when you're at the top level and you're an NFL quarterback, you shape your city. Like the way C.J. Stroud acts in Houston shapes that city. Right. So there's these,

I get to work with the most influential people in the world. Let's get back to that. Or stay on that. What does it mean when you say you care about them? Because a lot of coaches are good at making it seem like that. Like, that's actually part of their ability to glamour people. But a lot of, I feel like the kids, the young men, the men don't know what it means to actually have somebody care about you. Why don't you talk a little bit about that? So what I say when I care about it, I'm like, I'm going to hold you accountable, right,

for the things that you do. I think that a lot of people don't do that when they get benefit from you. Like, there's no wins and losses for me. You play good. don't play good, I still care about your development. Like how you're moving through life. Like you're being a good person. Those are things that I care about.

And I try and hold people to stand it up. You had some words about Shador Sanders, which I know, I was like, wow, Quincy, that's bold. Quincy and this motherfucker like, I came in here to talk about this documentary. Y'all asking me about it. It's cool. I like, you're the things that I do. Quickly say it.

The reason it's also hard because I want people, which the documentary drops April 23rd. On Hulu, and I want people to watch it. I don't want to give away too much because I want them. Obviously, they can tell that you care about people. You work hard. It's a story of resilience. And you're also not afraid to say what's on your mind, which we love on this podcast, which I'm sure they're going to get in the documentary as well.

But this is actually relating to it. When you talk about your journey, or you think about your journey, and how resilient you had to be to get to the place where you are today, do you get frustrated when you see somebody like a Shador or maybe other people who could be deemed as NEPO babies get opportunities without necessarily putting in the same work that you or maybe some of the other quarterbacks you work with have? No, not for real.

I think that Shador has worked really hard. So I'd never want anybody to think that I don't think Shador has worked hard. I don't and I think he's probably one of the toughest people that we see and as like a nepo kid or somebody who we deem soft he's not those things yeah he was getting his ass kick right he got his ass kick over and over and I think that people also criticize like his brashness and his confidence I like that I don't think that I don't think he's done anything like out of pocket there's nothing that shit door's done where like you could look down on him or certainly like he's got a little arrogance yeah he's earned some of that right he's won a lot of football games he's changed through college programs. I just don't look at him as a football player in the way other people do. What are the... I can't talk about that.

See, I let you explain it. See, you thought I was going... Yeah, I don't know. I'm not. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the thing. Let's just be honest. We are in an unprecedented era

of second generation professional athletes. Okay, we're seeing it everywhere. We're seeing it in the NBA with Brani, right? We're seeing it with Shadour Sanders. Everybody is a junior. Some of these juniors it'd be like niggas that I forgot that the niggas was around. You know what I'm saying?

It'd be like, like, fucking, when the grant boy was first popping up, it's like, oh, shit, that's his kid. It's Kenyon Martin's son. Oh, shit, that's Kenyon Martin Jr. And so it's interesting to see which ones of these guys have it and which ones of them don't. Because it seems like any criticism of Shador is going to be a criticism of prime, right?

And any criticism of prime then becomes a criticism of Chador. And there has to be some kind of space to just evaluate Chadour Sanders as a quarterback. And I'll just ask you, even though you were, shout out to Rissillo, you were great on the podcast. Why is Chador

to have a sixth round grade to you? Why? That was probably a little hyperbole. I wouldn't say six round. I look back, I watch the interview. I'm like, that was, I went a bit too far. Second day? Yeah, but second day. Third day.

Third day. Third day. Third day. So I'll just say I don't think he's a quarterback. The talent-wise would be first round quarterback. What is a, what is a, when you look at a potential QB, if you were going to look at somebody and be like, the guys got it, what do you see? I see someone who can first make every single throw in a football football football.

field. They can throw a football with energy and they can throw football accurately. When I say energy, I don't just mean throwing the ball far down the field because that's not arm strength. Like being able to throw a ball past somebody in a matter in which it gets there quicker than they can react. Or they can layer a ball, which means get a ball up and down over somebody else can catch it. But they also have to be able to do things with their legs. Like they got to be able to extend plays, run around, create something from nothing. That's what makes you a first round quarterback. Do you think you get Chador to first round if he was working with you?

No, I think that Chador has a really good quarterback training. I used to work with him. I'm a fan of his. And I think he has a really good guy. Daryl Coburn. Okay. Do you ever look, I mean,

you have worked with hundreds of different athletes. Jalen Hurts, Justin Fields. Are these all the guys you worked with? Or these guys in the documentary? No, those guys I've worked with, that's why they're in the dock. Wow. Wow.

Oh, they're all in the dock, too. Oh, wow, blah, blah. Jayland Hurts, Justin Fields, Jordan Love, C.J. Stroud, Tony Dundge. I mean, you didn't work with Warren Moon, did you? Did not work with War Moon. Yeah. I love War Moon. It's my favorite quarterback ever.

Yeah. What was I going to say? Oh, so you've worked with not just professional players. You've worked with high school, high school. College. I feel like a lot of kids, especially parents who want to see there, I'm from Texas. So I feel like anybody who has a son or maybe even a daughter these days. wants to see their kid play football,

but specifically quarterback. Do you ever turn down someone and say, like, it's just not going to work? Because, I mean, parents can throw whatever kind of money. It's a very lucrative to do what you do as well. Do you ever just look at someone and you're like, no? All the time. Okay, you really do.

All the time. It's not worth the money. I don't have enough time to be going to get whatever hourly amount I'm charging for training. So I tell kids that all the time. In fact, I have a quarterback right now, who's playing college football, division one. When he was in eighth grade, I told his dad, like,

yo, it's time to stop. He don't got it. So I was wrong there. And he's just like, no, we're going to figure it out. And he came back to you? Oh, wow. But I'm super transparent with everybody. Like, if you fucked up, I'm going to tell you.

If you're not good enough, I'm going to tell you. Who would I be to lie to me? Like, we can't... My thing is authenticity. My words and my actions got to be congruent and whatever I do. So if I tell you, you know, I want to be the best quarterback in the world. I got to be willing to do whatever it takes to get there.

If I tell you you're not good enough, I got to like stand on that. So I'm standing on whatever I say. It's a position that you have to overcome adversity. You have to be able to overcome adversity. You have to be willing to throw a pick, come back, and still try to fit that ball in to make a winning play for your team, if that is what's called upon you. What about your story makes you able to impart that on young athlete?

Yeah, so adversity is... So I talked about that story. I took that out of the dock. I didn't think that was necessary, but I was a homeless for a thousand nights. A thousand nights. You took this out of the dock? No, no, not the thousand nights of homelessness.

That's still in there. But the story about my dad, like, when he left me in the hotel, it just probably wasn't necessary. And me and my dad have a really good relationship. I didn't want him to feel any type of way. But, like, I just decided I was going to make someone. So when I got done with college, I didn't have a job. drove to UCLA, sat on the couch like, yo, I want a job.

They're like, what the fuck is this nigga doing in here? And I did that for three days straight. And then finally he was like, what's up, man? Like, I want a job. He's like, I ain't going to pay. Cool. Did that for two years. Unpaid.

First year, unpaid. Second year, I got $1,100 a month. So basically unpaid. In LA, in LA, that's unpaid. Exactly. And then I'm like, I want to trade quarterbacks. You know what? I was heavy in the four local.

and I would leave to the club. I would get a four local and a French connection. And a French connection. This nigga said, this nigga said, I was heavy into four local. Aren't they illegal now? Bro, people was fucking cheap. I was a bad down. I was heavy into four local.

Look, if you was going to get on, if you was going to get on some work in L.A., you need to get out. So I made fake business cards from UCLA, handled the doorman like, y'all, I get your ticket. whatever. I was in the club. Wow. I love the hustle. I'm going to figure a way out, no matter what it is. And then, but yeah, I got done at UCLA, wanted to train quarterbacks, so I moved to Atlanta. I'm like, there's quarterbacks here,

and I would just message kids all day. Wow. No one responded for two years. And you kept going. Exactly. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, I'm not going to, if I want some, I'm going to get it. Like, simple as that. Did you play quarterback? I played quarterback until my second year of college.

Okay, okay. And then what? It wasn't good. Nah. I wanted to play. I didn't want to play. They told my black ass I was going to play wide receiver. Yeah.

And I did pretty good at that. So what was the moment that turned for you where, or that turned it for you, should I say, where you went from an aspiring quarterback coach to a quarterback coach? So I was reaching out to kids nonstop. And no one was responding. And then I'm like, I got to figure out of doing way. So I was like, all right, I'm going to do a camp for the top kids in Georgia. But I didn't have any money to run a field. It was kind of cold outside.

So I had to get this spot at 5.30 in the morning. No one came. But one of the kids I reached out to was Josh Dobbs. Oh. He hit me up like, y'all, I can't come. But can you train me? And it was up from there. Wow.

Wow. Josh Dobbs went to Tennessee, right? Went to Tennessee. Yeah, got drafted by the Steelers. He's with the Patriots now. Right. No eyebrows. My dog does not have eyebrows.

Wait, that's not a disc. No, yeah. It's not, but I just, why, but just why. That's how you like, no. That's how you know. That's how you like remember. Like, he was, look, I'm an SEC football fan. I know who he is too, but I wouldn't have said that.

Yeah, but there's no eyebrows, Josh Josh. No one else would. That's true. Like, he's a good player. He's a good player, yeah. Obviously, he's a good player. Yeah. When we, when we were talking and we drifted

a little bit because you were saying, you know, people come at you on Twitter, you know, for association with DeShan, what do you want people to know would take away? Like, people may assume certain things about you because of who you know, or because they see you now where you are. Like, what? What do you want people to know when they watch this? What do you want them to take away? I'm not saying, like, whatever you put your mind to you can get, but if you just be really

diligent, like you put your mind towards something, you work hard towards that thing, you might not get exactly that, but you're going to get the benefits of just hard work and being dedicated to going after your dreams. I just want people to do that. Whatever that looks like, you might be a quarterback, you might be a salesman, you might be trying to start a podcast, right? But people quit so early. You don't even know if you could do it or not.

Yeah. Like, you didn't see no nose. You didn't push through. You didn't persevere. Like, that's the shit that I like. Like, do some hard shit. Pause. Like, do some difficult things.

Yeah. Yeah. Do some difficult things. I was about to get you. I had to stop. I was about. Do some difficult things. Yeah.

Like where you can learn some lessons. Yeah. And I really want young kids to watch this because the kids I see parents getting away of every option. Like when they see something difficult come up, they try. No, you don't need. That's what you, like, when you're going to go through some difficult times, you need to be able to look back like, man. I remember I went through this. I made it out.

I know I can do this. And we're not building those muscles. Speaking of parents, Quincy, your old school that you got your start with as a new quarterback. Nico. Yeah. A lot of people think that Nico's parents

have fucked his shit up. If you guys don't know this story, Nico, Malva... You're about to fuck this name. I'm by the fuck this niggas name. Can you help him out? I can't even do it. Nico Imaleava.

Nico Imaleava. was a blue chip quarterback, five-star, that went to Tennessee. Tennessee went to the college football playoff last year. He had a pedestrian season. However, it was his first year in the offense, and he had good enough numbers to make you think this guy has huge upside to be a big-time player in the future. He was with Tennessee.

They went to the college football playoff. The reports from On 3 were that he asked them for $4 million to stay with the team. Josh Hepple, the coach of Tennessee, said no, you don't get no $4 million. And other coaches around the country ended up not being players in his transfer either. If you guys don't know, it's a big money deal for these quarterbacks now, particularly at these schools like Tennessee. He now is at UCLA. That news broke just recently. And he's going to be getting less than $2 million.

So his, he was making a little bit more. You make like 2.2, 2.3, right? 2.2, 2.3. He was making a little bit more than that when it was at Tennessee. So it cost him a little bit. And a lot of people are saying that with the money that he's been cost and the injury that it's done to his reputation, that his parents, who most people are saying were advising him, his father, particularly, Big Nick, that they have led this man astray, this young

man astray. What are your thoughts on that entire situation? I think that he probably could have got some better information going into. But two people get a chance to make a decision, right? Tennessee had a chance to make a decision. Do we want to pay him more? Nico gets to go ask for more money. People do that in the NFL all the time.

We don't have like a real longstanding contract. Yeah. Right? So every year we get to renegotiate. I know so many kids who've agreed to deals and before signing have been like, hey, I want a little bit more. And schools have given the money up. Yeah, they've given the money up.

So what Nico did was not that crazy. It didn't work out at Tennessee. He didn't get more money. But now he's at UCLA who probably runs the offense as more fit for him to go to the NFL. So he might have cost him $500,000 next year, but he could have made himself $30 million in the future. So it might work out. It might not.

I'm all for kids trying to get more money. That's what I was going to say, NIL good or bad, like good or bad as it stands. Fuck these kids schools, right? Like, they haven't been caring about black kids for so long. Like, it's time for us to go get the bag. And however you got to do it, go do it. So, okay, so let me tell you like this. All right.

This is a big issue for me. I'm a traditionalist when it comes to college football just because I love LSU so much. Quince, I can't tell you how much I love LSU. No, I'm aware. It's ridiculous. Like, I get fights over LSU, and we went to a game one time when LSU lost to UCLA. Oh, yeah. And we were walking out.

And one of these kids say, go back to the bayou, and I turned around. And it was like, man. We had to be like, relax. Like continue to walk. Is NIL, in your opinion, good for the sport? Because I'm starting to wonder whether or not it's good for the sport. Yeah. We need some guardrails.

We need some legislation. We need a CBA. Right. There needs to be a real. We need to just understand that these people are employees. Until we're honest with ourselves and just say, then we're going to continue to be in fucked up situations where kids can do

whatever and we live in the Wild Wild West. Top five quarterbacks right now. There we go. Do it. All right. You got that dock list? No, no, no. We're not doing that. Be honest. Remember you're a truth-teller.

I got to be honest. My favorite people are just the people I work with. No. Okay. But I don't watch other people. Well, some of them should make this play. I don't care about other dudes. Unless I'm going back and, like, watching something for somebody else.

Yeah. So I watch tape for all of my guys. Okay. So any quarterback that I train in the NFL, I go through and watch film of their upcoming opponent. And then I'll send them notes. So they'll have a PDF for the notes. So I don't really watch quarterbacks like that. I watch my guys.

So who are the best quarterbacks then? Okay. Top five. Gino, CJ, Jordan Love, Jalen Hertz. Damn, I'm forgetting some folks. Who are the top five quarterbacks who need? Quincy Avery. That's crazy.

I wouldn't say any NFL guys because they're in the NFL, right? They're solid guys. There's people who I really want to work with Nico because I think he's talented and I think he's been led astray. And I want to be able to help him. So that's someone who I see him like, I can help you out. I can help you be not only a better quarterback, but help you navigate these situations a little bit better.

Because let's just say his parents did mess this up. At one point, you got a really separate. yourself from your parents. They can't be your manager, parents, your manager and your parent because the lines get blurred and you end up in a fucked-up situation.

In 15 years, we don't want him looking back like, I don't fuck with my dad. Because he put me in this bad situation. And I want to be in the NFL and now I'm like working a job. Like a regular job. Not that that's a bad thing,

but I don't want him to be there. And that's the kind of situation I'd like to prevent guys from him. Jayton Daniels is with his mom. A lot of people are starting to wonder what the hell's going on. Jay and Daniels' mom, I've known him since he was in high school.

She's always been really, really involved. Like, we were at the Elite 11, and his mom was out there the whole week. I think that's unique, right, in that situation. But she's never, I've never seen her be, like, problematic. Right. Right, there's people who talk about her at Arizona State and her being in the way and some recruiting stuff.

But every interaction I've had with her is positive. I think that oftentimes we do need somebody to, like, maybe not on the football side, but to really be a mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, watch out for them in their girlfriend situations, all that. Maybe a little too far in that, but you know she cares about them. I like it. I like all that energy.

That's how I would be. I think that my knee jerk is to be like it's too much, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have a situation to where you're saying, nobody cares about these young athletes. And then also have it as somebody cares about these young athletes too much. much. You know what I mean? You can't have it both ways. So I think that if I have to make a decision about it, it's his mom. She wants to make sure his career goes smoothly and he keeps his eye on a prize. And so she's looking out for him. Yeah. But you got to let him also be an adult.

Like at one point, we got to let him figure out some shit on his own. I've seen that go bad for some people. I have too. I have too. Right? I have too. No, no, go ahead. No, go ahead. Because I was going to get the football over there for you. Go get the football. I need, I need you understand. He wears these gloves, though. He's starting to wear them every podcast at this point. They're baseball. They're baseball gloves. I noticed the texture of the material was the baseball gloves.

Yeah. So what just brought that upon you? Go back to the text to him DMing you because I didn't believe it. When I was in Austin and I was like, no, no, you must have a different van. I did a lot of quarterback coaches because I wanted to start quarterbacking. Okay. I want to start because I see all the quarterback. Hold on for a second.

Let me see. I'm going to do the one glove like Tom Brady. I want to start quarterbacking. I need you. Before I even get into... Wait, wait. Donnie,

send this to Donnie. You sent a picture of yourself holding the football. Who do you think you are? I was trying to reach out to the best quarterback coach in the fucking game to get some help

so I can quarterback. So this is my... Quince, you got to rate my quarterback cosplay. So we get the call in Okay All right I'm here in the huddle

I'm in the huddle right now I'm in the huddle right now All right strong right Y dig X post Z go All one on one Ready

Break So Y dig So Y's running a dig Yeah I got that So Y's running a dig The Z post So they're in the same side Yeah

So we got like a quarter's concept But they're in quarters coverage We got the post opportunity We got the The dig is going to take away that zone. And then we got to post and then the post is going over the top.

Okay. Okay. And then we got to go on the other side because that's our our guy. We're going. And look,

we got the back in the back field. We're good, right? And so I'm going to come out. We're going on Mary, silent. Mary! Then we're

the ball snapping. I get the ball. And when I come back, my first read is the dig. Okay. My first read is the dig. Because I'm going to take, I'm taking that.

I'm taking that. I'll get you saying. Like, if the yards are there, I'm going to take them. However, if I see the post coming over the top, I'm going to hit the post. That's a great plane. And then if I got time, I might see what I have on the left and maybe throw, you know, a back shoulder or a 50-50 to my go. You know, if I got somebody that I like to, depend on the personnel. What are your thoughts?

I kind of like the plane. we're going to need some flat control on the right. Okay, okay. Now, when we think about this X on the left side of the field, like we can only take that, like, one-on-one press coverage, right? Best matchup. And the free safety has got to not be involved. He's got to be like, what you call like, like fishing or looking for the Y and the other sign.

If we get in that situation, you got to go there right now. You can't go here, here. So that can't be a third ring because I'm... No. We got to be alert to that. Yeah. So tell me what you mean about that. So this is a pre-snap, pre-snap.

Oh, so you're going to look, so... As I'm walking along the scrimmage. If you see press, I'm going there. But then you have to be aware where the free safety is. Okay. So if he's inside the hash, then you got a chance. Right. Like, we could make something happen there.

Right. Now, does personnel matter here? Yes. Because you didn't give me anything for your backs? No, they're doing. They're in passing. So you're going seven-man pass pro? Well, yeah.

Then this isn't going to work. Why? Because you don't have enough people out to get open. You didn't go play action or anything. It's just a bad play. This is not, it went from a good plan to a bad place. Well, let me tell you something. Let me tell you why.

This is what I run on college football. Okay. This is what I run on college football. Look, if, if I could put the back on a wheel to the same side as the, you know what I want to know. So I put the back on a wheel to the same side as the post dig. No, no, no, no, no. As the go? As the go.

I could put the back on the wheel at the same side as the post. I'm not going to put him on the other side because he's just going to, he's going to ruin the concept over there. So what's your, you're not going to run like a high completion percentage offense. That's not sustainable. Well, here's the thing. What I could, if I am willing to settle for short throws. That's where you live at. Right.

Tom Brady's the best quarterback. If I'm willing to settle for short throws. If I'm willing to settle for short throws, I can make, well, how about this? I just don't like how you're holding the football. Okay. You know like it's too deep, like in the depths of your- So I don't know. This is great.

How many people come to you at this big age and say, I want to get into quarterbacking? I don't even know what that means. I want to get into quarter backing. I want to get better. I want to be good at all things that I do. Are you committed to it? I'm committed to it.

Okay. So somebody that's learning how to throw it. Let's see how that was a little flip. Somebody is learning how to throw it. How do you give a beginner's class right there on throwing a foot? Are you in this camera? Yeah. Okay.

So you have some options. You can go here. I'm so glad I'm not ashy. I just had to start with that. Okay. So we can start with our like middle finger here. That's if you have bigger hands. Yeah.

Or you can take it up here. Yeah. Or here. And that's probably those are your three levels of where we can put our fingers. Oh, I always thought it was in the middle. You have no chance. Yeah. It's not going to happen.

I mean. So space. Do you go space between here? I got a little space in between there. Okay. I don't need it. All in there. But a lot of times I see

as people, like you kind of did that earlier, like kind of put in the depths of your hand. Yeah. Doesn't allow you space for your thumb. Okay. Like you can't control the football as well. Now, when we're releasing this football, the last thing that's going to make contact with the football

is the index finger. Exactly. Yeah. To think about all that in the play, I'm sure it comes. Right here. That's really good. I'm right here.

We got a chance. Oh, damn. You know what I mean? That's all you need to say. You got to relax your shoulders a little bit? Relax my shoulders. Mm-hmm. Pump face.

You know, pump fakes. How long are you in L.A.? Don't pump fake like that, though. But this is the pump. No, no. Don't do that. How do I plump like that? No, definitely don't do that.

Who starts throwing football like that? What's the first thing that happens when you start throwing football? When I throw the football? When anybody does. What's the first thing happens? You rotate your hips. Hell done. Okay, you rotate your knee.

You don't rotate your shoulder. You rotate your shoulder. It's your hands separate. Yeah. But they don't go up like, they just go this way. So that's the... No, stop doing that. Just do this.

That's the pump fake? You see how my hands are turning? Like that. Like you see this? This is my first quarterback. Turn your thumb over. Like this. He's horizontal.

Yeah, exactly. So the tip of the football should be getting to your target. Like if you just start like that, then you're in it. Oh, I see. So I'm pump faking. I'm like this. Well, no. Let me see it.

So we're starting like this. Oh. So what pump fake is, they see that, they jump. Right. They see you do this. Like, get the fuck out of here. So they're not going. So what about, what's your, what's your opinion on?

on patting the ball. Should keep patting it. Who cares if you pat the football? It takes no time. It's for sure. Well, it's sequencing people up. This is a bunch of nerdy football shit

that I'm sure that the folks are really- Fuck them. Okay, fuck them, cool. Okay, so this is a sequencing thing, right? It's not anything else. They just push it to start to let your hands separate. This is a dream. You know what?

I can throw a baseball. We could, we could, we could, we could teach you out there. How long are you going to allow? We go on the street when you get done. Yeah. You can throw the football. I'm leaving the night.

I see them when they're doing their, their little, when they're going. Good ball. I just wanted somebody, I just want one time for somebody to say good ball. You know, I throw the ball, get good. You know what, Rachel? You know, here's the thing. I'm, I stay in my lane. We're going to let me tell you something right now.

But let me tell you something right now. But that's, if you look at it like that, you're never going to be good at nothing. All right. Like, it's like, it's like, me, me and said you're never going to be good at nothing. What I'm saying is, I'm going to start quarterbacking. With who? Who are you throwing to? Flag football league.

Flag football league. Get out there. I'm a star quarterbacking. You know, you got time before the Olympics. Can you imagine? Are you going to be training people for that? I'm actually in negotiations to coach a national team for the Olympics. Oh, wow.

That's amazing. Come on. I'm trying to go up. I'm going to be on the squad, man. Come on. That would be great. I'm so into flack. I'm so into this. Yeah, don't act like you into it now that me and Quincy started our journey.

I'm the one who said it. I put you in it. Brother, when does the documentary come out? April 23rd. April 23rd. What's the future? Last question. What's the future for Quincy Avery?

Do you see yourself as, would you ever want to be on the sidelines? No, I never want to coach. I never want to coach like that. I want to get just. You want your freedom? Yeah. I mean, you see how much I'll be traveling, so I ain't that free. But I don't want to, I don't want success for me to look like wins and losses.

Actually, the last thing I did at UCLA, one of the last things, I asked like an associate AD, I was like, instead of us getting these guys like sweatsuits for away games, why don't we get them suits? So when they get done, they can get a job, we can help them out. We can make sure we're sending these dudes up for success. He's like, yes, it's not really our job. That was the last thing. That was the thing that pretty much ended it for me. Like, I care about these dudes.

I want folks to be successful. I want to, so I don't want it to be wins and lost. Get out of here with that life shit, nigger. Yeah. It's basically wrong. Well, congrats on everything you're doing. Seriously, man. Seriously, man.

Congrats on everything that you're doing. Once again, the Quincy Avery Effect. Hulu starting April 23rd, Jalen Hertz, Justin Fields, Super Bowl champion, Jaylorardt. Justin Fields, Jordan, C.J. Stroudon, Tony, Dungey, Warren, Moor. Featuring in the doc. Continued success, brother.

We're going to get on the field, man. Appreciate it. Don't do that, though. All right. We have to get out of here. We have Camille Lewis coming on the podcast right now. We're going to talk sex, love, porn, and the normalization of talking about sex.

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfairadio.com. All right, it's time to talk about sex and love and relationships. I feel like it's something that a lot of people need to talk more about and get educated about and get, you know, help with. Because I feel like a lot of people are really girded up and hung up about it. We have somebody that's going to talk to us about this stuff. A lot of the viewers and listeners think that I need this. Yeah, this was for you. Can I just say, I met Camille.

We were having lunch at the same time at the Pendry. My friend came over to your group. because he just thought you guys were fabulous. And then we realized that we both, you're friends with Mark Anthony's sister. Who was Mark? Oh, Mark Anthony Green. Yeah.

Mack who we had on the podcast. And then you mentioned that you were sex therapist. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Nobody needs this more than Van Lathen. That's so upsetting that people say this. But this is a gift. This is what you, this is, maybe this is a birthday present.

For me. I thought about you when I, and I mean this in the most positive way, because I know you think I throw shade. So we're so happy to have you on the podcast. I'm glad we can make this happen. Camille Lewis is her name, licensed, marriage, and family therapist

with a master's degree in clinical psychology. Now, before you were a therapist, you had a career in law and entertainment. Tell us about your former life. I thought that I wanted to be an attorney. And so I spent, like, several years working at big law firms and then at NBC and their legal department,

more like paralegal stuff. And it didn't really write. resonate. I get it. And then I was surrounded by miserable lawyers and people telling me not to do it. And it wasn't because of that that I didn't do it. But I was like, if I felt excited and passionate about it, I would have pursued it. But then I was really thinking about how to make more individualized impacts on the black community specifically. And I was like mental health, let's go. And my mom's a psychologist. She told me not to do it. And I didn't listen to her either. So yeah. But you're happy being. I'm really happy.

A therapist. Very happy. That is very true about lawyers. Lawyers will tell you when you work, same thing with me, you don't want to do this. It's miserable. Yeah. I've never experienced that in any other career like I have with law. Yeah.

So you made the right decision. You both do. Tell me one thing, marriage and family therapists, sex therapist, one thing you would want black men specifically to know about sex. Black men specifically to know about sex. There's so much. But I think that I would want black men to know that their sexuality is their own. And I think that because of all the messaging that we get about sex and being hypersexualized, especially for black men, you think that you might need to perform a certain way, look a certain way, be interested in certain things.

And that being curious and exploring is the most, I think, one of the most important components of sex. And so if you're patient and curious with yourself, that that is essential to having pleasurable sexuality. Yeah. I love that question and I love the answer. And I'm wondering, like in the work that you do, do you see more people coming to you as, I guess, the stereotype of what it is to be masculine is being challenged more and more as we move forward. Do you see that with young kids, boys, black boys? Do you see that with adult men? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, I think that the way that masculinity has been evolving is really interesting because it's always looked different across different communities globally. But the way that it has been formed by patriarchy here in the U.S. is really intense. And I've seen more men be curious about their sexuality, be curious about the things that they like and that they're interested in. And I think the biggest question is like, if I like this, does that make me gay? Does that make me like weird, whatever it is? And so a lot of the work that I do is normalizing and really working on acceptance and being curious about pleasure and where it lives in your body and how to access it.

And so I would say, yeah, I work mostly with adults. So not as much with minors, but that's mostly what I see. Yeah. Are men afraid of pleasure? I think that I don't know that men are men. are afraid, I think that most people are afraid of pleasure because the world that we live in kind teaches you not to be engaged with pleasure. Yeah.

And I think that men feel like they are supposed to feel pleasure by certain things. Like certain things, they're always supposed to be horny. They're always supposed to be ready to go. And so they might not be as patient with themselves. And so I don't think that they're as a curious as I would hope for folks to be. But I don't know about afraid. Yeah. Well, the reason why I say that is because to experience true pleasure, in my opinion,

sometimes you have to let go. Yeah. Sometimes you have to relinquish control. Sometimes you have to give up a part of you and you have to make a secret. Give up a part of you and make a secret. What I mean is like the best thing about intimacy to me isn't the physical act. it's the little thing. Hey, it's me, it's you.

Hey, you're taking your clothes off. I'm taking my clothes off. Now, all the things that we kind of put up in the world to shield ourselves from one another, for whatever reason, be it lust, be it feeling, whatever, we've just decided to shatter all of those and become two things together making a little pact. And I think that a lot of times in that,

if you can't really let go, you'll try to control yourself or control the situation to where you're not having as much fun and indulging as much as you should be. And I think that comes from perception. For sure. It comes from like what you think is going to be

the reaction to that after you're finished and after you're done with it. And a lot of times, like, you know, when we were in the crew back in the day, we would debrief after one of the homies would have sex with somebody that we knew. Y'all do that?

Well. Y'all just put all our business out there? No. It's not so much about the woman as it is about the guy. You can't tell the story without talking about her. Well, you can. Listen, I'll tell you what the debrief was. Especially if my home, if the homie is after somebody and it's been after for a while

and then they have the sexual relations and stuff like that, we're not debriefing to see the ends and outs of it. we're seeing if he was up to the task. Meaning if he hit it right. Okay. Because back in the day in Louisiana, Louisiana, Louisiana, Louisiana would go around. And if you, the bad dick reports.

Oh, I thought it was a big dick report. Okay. And so if the bad dick report came back and got into the crew, it wasn't the ladies that would be on you. The rest of the crew would be on you. What does it mean to have bad dick? The women decide that. Okay.

then they come back and then they say BDR for this guy. And then as younger men, we would, you know, give him the business. That's how toxic we were. Can we please, yes, can we please break this down? Yes. Because one, I got to know if this is very common. And two. By the way, we didn't make up the BDRs.

The women made them up. But then how did that get circulated back to you? Because they would tell us if there was a BDR, if you had a BDR out about you, the girls, we had a, so we had a group of ladies. So we were player proof. and then we had a female counterpart group, they were the pink ladies. Okay.

Okay. If a BDR was circulated about one of our homeboys and they got wind of it, there would be an Athe, a Marie, an Allison, a Tidra that would bring this back to us and tell us. And then it was up to us to excoriate each other. This sounds problematic. Is it not?

I think that talking about sex is important. So I think that what you were talking about when you first started talking was shame and like the secrets that we keep as a result. And a lot of us, especially like black folks, are taught to not talk about sex. And I think that that is where we really do ourselves a disservice because that's where you don't get conversation about curiosity, pleasure, or consent, really. So do I think that, I think, you know, I think I would just be more curious. about what it means to have bad dick, what it means to be good in bed, what good sex means. And the more that you can be like wanting to define those things for yourself is important. I, okay, I want to talk about the talking about sex thing.

Because I grew up, like I'm sure, like a lot of our listeners or whatever, in a southern, very religious family. You didn't talk about it. When I wrote about it in my book, I was like, my mom put a poster, which she's mortified now after reading it. And it was the first time that I was very open about my past sexually. And that was very hard for me, even at 36 when I was writing this book, like, extremely hard. But my mom's way of teaching me about sex was putting up an abstinence poster. And that was it. And as I've...

No words were spoken. Yeah, it was just like, here. Flam the four corners, big bold, in all caps, abstinence, and walked out. And I remember I was on the phone with someone, and I just started laughing. But that was literally my conversation. And she did that when? When I was 14 or 15? And I'm not doing this to shame I'm on.

I think a lot of people do this, especially also growing up in purity culture. So it was hard for me growing up and even into adulthood, I felt a little shame about talking about sex. And Van is way more open about it. And sometimes maybe he's one extreme and then I get accused of being proved.

But I'm saying all this to say, I'm better at talking about it now, But I was having a conversation with a girlfriend who is much more open about sex with her partners than I have been. And she said something to me of, do you ask your partner what they like sexually? And it blew my mind. I had never asked that and nobody had ever asked me that. Is that something? And it's been, I love, the freedom that that has brought has been great.

Is that something like, can you talk about the importance of asking? And then how quickly should you ask someone that you're intimate with, what they like, what they don't like? Yeah, kind of like the love language of sex is how it's. Yeah. I mean, like to your point about purity culture, it has such a impact on how people relate to their bodies and to sex. And the abstinence only education is really, really common, especially like in the American South and all over. So like having comprehensive sex ed means you have to talk about it. And when you don't, and we see what abstinence-only education does, like more pregnancies or, you know, fatal abortions or not access to abortion care, things like that.

So talking about sex is so important because then you get to understand that it is something that most people are participating in in some way, even if they're not having it. So if the first time that you hear about sex or talk about sex is when you're having it, that's really scary to me because you have no. idea what to expect or you think you know what to expect because your homeboy talked to you or you saw it in this movie or whatever. And that was later. That was college. But like talking about sex is so important. And to your question about how soon I think as soon as possible.

And I think talking about it practicing so that you talk about it as casually as you would talk about anything else. And being like, so what like what feels good to you is a good question of that? Yeah, without judgment. And you can ask them and get their answers and that might not be in alignment with what you like. And I think that's such a great place to either decide, okay, I'm curious, I want to explore more or that's really like a limit for me. I'm not interested. Then you really save yourself from being in uncomfortable situations when you might have sex with that person.

Both of you have completely different ideas of what it means to have sex. And a lot of people think that sex is only like penis in vagina penetration. and sex is so many other things than that. And so you kind of like rob yourself of the ability to learn more about yourself when you don't talk about it. So I'm the resident weirdo here because a lot of times with the viewers and with Rachel, because I was raised in a completely different type of household. Okay. So my parents had a very loving and sexual relationship.

Okay. They were extremely affectionate with one another. They were great-looking people that enjoyed each other. Like sometimes, you know, me and my sister would be in the house or whatever, and all of a sudden my dad would give us money and, like, go get you something to eat. Yeah. Right? And then they would just be in the room all day long.

And so then I would, like, I would needle my mom about that, just making a little joke. like getting at her. You're like, oh, what you and Daddy was doing in the room today? And she was like, oh, we were having sex all day long. Is that the answer you wanted? That's how she would talk. Okay. And she would, but they were so open that I think sometimes I am maybe a little bit too open.

How so? Like, I'll just, I'll talk about things. Like I have no. Like you'll say, let's give examples on the podcast. Give example. Like you'll say, well, he's told stories about seeing his parents. It was funny. Well, that was an accident.

That was very excited about that. Oh, you walked in? Yeah, it's tough. He said that what he wants his mom, how he wants his mom to be sexually pleased. Yeah. Okay. Right.

So listen, this is the thing. People were upset about that. People were upset about that because I said that I want my mom to be sexually fulfilled because I know what an important part of her life that was. And I watched her. as a woman, like, be able to assert that and talk about that. And my mother and my, and so I want my mom to have a guy, to have a person and to have a sexual relationship and be sexually fulfilled right now. And that's not the response. See how you're shrugging and going on? That's cool.

Well, because you're a little bicycle story. I can't remember what you were saying about the bike. It was a little, it was a little much. It's not much. It's the fact that I want my mom to have somebody. to have sex with her. The way you just posed at this time was beautiful because we have company here. This was about like riding a bicycle and the seat, something you were talking. I don't know what you can do.

Yes, it was. Well, no, no, no. I bought her a bike. But listen, a lot of people are uncomfortable saying, hey, this is a part of life that people glean pleasure from. And if you want the best for someone, how could you want the best for someone in life and not want them to be having good sex?

So am I the weirdo Or is the audience Like way too prudish I'm a bunch of prudes in the world I think that people are shamed So I don't And I think that like Everybody has a spectrum of the way that they relate to sex

And so I don't I don't think that you're weird for that I think that you're attuned for that And I think that it's really lovely That you want your mom to feel Pleasure and fulfillment Yeah See?

The way you described it was beautiful. I promise you that it wasn't easy that easy to digest. The audience would never be upset with what you just said now. That's not true. We'll get Donnie to play it back so you can refresh your memory because it was, I don't even know what the word to use. It was a lot. You being a sex therapist, how did you decide like that's the type of, because you do more than that. You do relationship love, you know, as Van talked about in your intro.

How is it that you decided this is what I also want to make a part of my practice? Yeah. I think that when I was in grad school and trying to figure out what I wanted to specialize in, I really wanted to focus on something I could see myself talking about regularly for years. And I was like, well, I've always liked talking about sex. It's really interesting to talk about sex. When I think about the communities that I work with, which is mostly black people or other bi-block people and queer people, it's thinking about the things that also like make us further relegated to the shadows,

which is to shame sex, pleasure, and liberation. And so I was like, this will be fun for me to talk about. I'm curious about it. And I think that there's so much healing that can be done around sex that is actually about what you mentioned earlier, which is actually about intimacy. It's actually about relationships. It's actually about feeling seen and loved and cared for. That's mostly what people actually want to talk about.

even if they're coming in and they want to talk about their different kinks or their fetishes or it's a couple or it's a triad of people. Everybody really just wants to feel connected. So yeah, I think I answered the question. Yeah, they just want to be told

that what they like is okay. 100%. That what they like is okay. You're into it. What's not okay? I'll tell you what I mean. So, you know, sometimes the conversations that we have here

in the conversations that other people have other places. The conversations are more about what's not okay than they are about what's okay. So we don't have very many conversations that are like, hey, it's okay if you like this. It's okay if you want to show this. It's okay. We have conversations about what you shouldn't be doing,

how you shouldn't be doing. Like there was a teacher that we talked about one time and go back to this. I got it wrong. I got it wrong. There was a teacher that we talked about one time. And she lost her job. She's actually going on to become,

she's having a pretty big content creation career. I shout out to Christina. She said that she said that she wanted some heavy dick on the weekend. She put this on Twitter. And she lost her job as a substitute teacher. And I was thinking to myself, that's wrong. Why should she lose her job as a substitute teacher? Because she tweeted out that she wanted some heavy dick on the weekend.

Rachel and I disagreed on this. But I see a lot of this. I see conversations about where you should and should not be twirling. I see conversations about how you should dress, how you shouldn't dress, about sex workers and whether or not sex work is legitimate work and how do you treat an only fan's person and all of that stuff. Seems like we're having a lot more conversations that are trying to either put guardrails around or restrictions upon people's sexuality. Is there a limit that isn't okay? Is there something that is unhealthy? Is there a way to be too sexually free?

Is there a way to be too sexual? Are there places where you should just cover up and keep your goddamn legs close? Well, I think that that question is like, I think it's determined by the individual. But I don't think that there's anything necessarily that's too much other than things that are non-consensual. So sex with minors, sex with animals, things like that.

Yeah. Other than that, I'm good with most things. Wow, you're down for it all. Not me personally. Like, I'm not personally doing everything, but I think that as long as there's like negotiation and consent, I don't think that, I think that sex is meant to be enjoyed. And so I think that everybody is going to have different things

that pleasure them and that they enjoy. So. What do you feel about the conversation around sex, work right now as OnlyFans and other platforms have sort of democratized sex work in a way that has both put it back in the hands of the creator, but also has made it very, has lowered the barrier to it so that a lot more people are doing it. Some people say that that's good for society. Some people say that it is bad because it's part of the hypersexuality of society. What do you say? Well, I think that society has a sexuality. So it's really natural that they're going to be people who engage with their sexuality more publicly than other people. It's been around since the beginning of time.

So I think that if people want to engage in sex work at whatever level, is that being in films or only fans or stripping or camming, whatever, I think that everybody should be allowed to engage it in the way that they want. I think that OnlyFans is more accessible for certain people. And I think that it's also, I think probably we saw more of it emerged during the beginning of COVID because people couldn't access other types of sex work. So I think that it's interesting. And I think that it's creative.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What are some signs that maybe you need to go to sex therapy? I would say if you're curious about your sexuality, curious about gender identity, if you want a place to talk about the things that you're interested in and you have no place to go to, if you're curious just about what sex is and what it means, like, I've had a lot of clients come who I do a lot of like psychoeducation with. So I do a lot of, well, this is what consent is. No, you don't have to do this just because he's your boyfriend. This is. what it means to have a kink or explore that kink. This is what it means to negotiate those kinks. But a lot of people might come to sex therapy or think they need to sex therapist because of addiction. And I have a different take on that, which might ruffle some feathers. Let's hear it.

Well, I think that a lot of people will come because they think that there's like a porn or a sex addiction. and I find it really, I haven't, I've never seen it in my career of somebody who I would say meets like diagnostic criteria. There also isn't like in the like DSM really like a addiction to porn. That's not something that exists. It's not real, you say. Oh. I would say it's not real. I would say that it would have to, I would say.

Your response. Well, he's closed the door and you might have opened it. So you're saying that it's a lot of mumbo-jumbo about what the porn addiction, the fairy tale of porn addiction. Say more.

Well, I would be curious when people come to me for a consultation and say my girlfriend says I should come here because she thinks I'm addicted to porn. That's something common that I might hear. And then I would ask them what is your porn usage like?

So for you, I'd ask you that. What was it like? Do the back in the day. Yeah, what was it like? Let's not talk anything now. So, okay, so now, not negligible. Negligible, not happening. Which means not at all.

Basically. Basically. What's basically? I mean, maybe once a month, literally. Wow. Once, maybe twice a month. I'm serious. So I want you to say what it was at your peak.

At the peak? At the peak. There's a lot. Okay. What's a lot? So let's say I was in what's called a session. Okay. Okay.

Don't be shamed. I mean, you'd watch a lot of porn. But what's a lot? See, these are the questions and people are uncomfortable. Three hours a day? Three hours a day consecutively? Not consecutively. Okay.

Because you get sore. So I would say when you're on, I would say you were definitely masturbating. every day at a point. Definitely masturbating every day. But you were watching a lot of porn to get there. So I would say, yeah, yeah, you were carving out a couple, three hours, maybe longer, maybe sometimes four hours. Maybe sometimes you come home from the gym and you take an afternoon to wind down and you

would use porn. Okay. Yeah. A lot of people come home from the gym and they might cook or watch TV for hours and that is enjoyable to them to wind down. Would that be a problem? Not to me. Right.

So where it becomes maladaptive is if somebody is, let's say, I have a meeting at work, and rather than prepare for that meeting or be on time for that meeting, I'm watching porn in excess. It's maladaptive then. It's interfering with the way that I'm living my life. Now I do this instead of having other relationships, which I do see about how to have a relationship with porn. so that you can also have relationships with other people.

But it's rare that I've seen it so that it gets to that level. And a lot of it is really understanding what porn watch and usage does for the person. And a lot of it could be it helps me wind down. It helps me de-stress. It helps me go to sleep. A lot of these things are like ritual-based. A lot of people watch porn regularly to fall asleep. I think that we do lots of things like that.

People drink tea or they might meditate. and some people watch porn. But the reason that it is so kind of like shamed and relegated to the shadows is because it has to do with pleasure. It has to do with you feeling good. And I think especially for black people, the world benefits when we don't. So when we don't feel good, when we don't feel access to ourselves or our bodies, when we're super cerebral and in our heads and we are just focused on like doing and achieving

and all of that, then we have no idea that we can be community-based, connect with each other, feel good, feel liberation. Are you saying that watching porn is pro-black? Because I could get with that. I think that I could say that. I think it could be said. Oh! Does it depend what type of porn you're watching?

I think that I would have to ask person. Not oh. Oh, well, so this is what I'm, okay, so this is what I will say. I've never, like, I've never been in a situation where I've been like, you know, man, you know, New Roxy Reynolds just dropped. I got to watch this so I don't go to the basketball game or miss work. I've never been in that situation. But there was a time when free time that I had that wasn't carved out for basketball

because I was playing a lot of basketball. Okay. I was in the gym a lot, right? Okay. Free time that wasn't carved out for basketball or for work. It was like I did schedule it. Okay. I did say that like, okay, so I'm going to get up.

I'm going to go to the gym from, I'm a hoop from 8 to 12. Okay. All right. I'm a hoop from 8 to 12. This was when I was unemployed. I'm a hoop from 8 to 12. I'm a right from 12 to 330, 12 to 4. Then I got to go pick up somebody at six or seven.

So in that time, when it's free, porn time. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. Not to me. I'm back. Well, to me, like that sounds like a plan of the day. Like a lot of people who are partnered, they have sex. They plan sex, right?

They plan to connect intimately with their partner. They might, and we wouldn't say, oh, you have sex every day. That's crazy. You shouldn't do that. That's problematic. In fact, like, we kind of encourage people. We shame them into not having enough sex with their partner, which I also think is bullshit.

So I think that there are ways to engage in porn in ways that make you feel good because that's what it's meant to do. I've got to be honest. I listen to this conversation, I feel like we all need sex therapy. And for different reasons. Like as I'm listening to, you know, like maybe yours is porn or whatever, just freed something in you just to hear, I guess, the non-judgmental way, and just like a different way to look at what it is to watch porn,

just like hearing the conversation with you. For me, even though I talk about the liberation of writing about it and talking about it, I would be lying if I was like, it's still, purity culture doesn't still impact that for me. What do you think it was like saying to you? as you heard us speaking. What was purity culture like saying to you? Do you think? Oh, that it's totally wrong.

And not the pleasure part of it, just wrong to watch people. And like, I'm not above it. I've obviously watched porn. I'm just saying there's a guilt that I would feel if I finished watching it. Just like, oh, like the, I shouldn't be watching these people do this thing

or put their bodies out here in this way. And, you know, obviously there's a freedom and they're doing it and they're working and there's nothing judgmental about. it, but the guilt from the purity culture is like, this is wrong, you shouldn't be doing it. Or there are many sermons that, you know, I've been to that where I, pastor of my church talked about his own addiction. Yeah.

He called it addiction. His own addiction to it and how, you know, it was wrong and how he was using it in a way to unwind and everything in a way to kind of tell us we shouldn't be doing it as well. So I just think about those things. Yeah. And I just think maybe we all need a little bit of sex therapy in our life. that's what I'm taking away from this. Well, I think it's, I'm sure that a lot of people can relate to what your experiences of listening

to this and are probably like, wait, what? And, you know, I've had people like, you're supposed to be a therapist and you're telling people it's okay to do these things. And I'm like, well, yes, of course. I want people to feel good and connected to themselves. And a lot of times, like watching porn or masturbating or touching yourself or looking up something else that you haven't explored before, just like helps you figure out. more about yourself. It's education. It can be. And I think that it's important to connect with yourself

and connect with your erotic self and be curious about what types of porn turn you on and what types scare you. And there's so much conversation to be had from that. Because then you could have conversations with your friends about like, I watched this porn. I really liked it. I really didn't like it. It made me uncomfortable. And they might be like, oh, I watch that all the time. Or that sounds really weird or whatever. Then we're all. talking about it. We're all in community. And I really think that talking about porn and sex makes consent more possible. Oh, say more about that. Because I think that we are so conditioned to think that sex happens this way and you should like this. Or this is what it means to say no

to something and this is what it means to say yes to something, which we don't really have a lot a language for. Like, I think especially for most people, most people who identify as women is like, or have been socialized as women, it's like the lie there and take it type of mentality that you've kind of been told implicitly and explicitly. Sex is for cis men to feel pleasure. It's for them to come and for them to feel good and for you to, like, if you feel good, like maybe.

But I think the more you're talking about it and the more that if you were sharing like with the type of sex that you had with one of your home girls. And she was like, whoa, wait, do you like that? Even if that's where you get asked if you like it, if it wasn't your partner. And then she might be like, I don't know, it was kind of weird. I'd be like, okay, maybe you don't want to see that person again. Maybe you want to talk to that person and tell them that you didn't really like what you guys just did. Let's have these conversations so that it's more possible to access conversations about consent.

Yeah, I don't think I can go back to the point in life Only because I'm so much more productive now You know It was productive I was really in the life You know It was on the message boards And the whole nine You know, just trying to figure out the new scenes

New technologies New production companies Sure It was a hobby It was a legit It was a hobby It was a hobby It was a hobby

Shout to all my fellow travelers out there I will say this though This is something that like There is a And I'll ask you about this specifically as the last question about pornography. There is a part, you must eat breakfast burrito before you come in. That's going to be a new rule. There is a part of the industry that is incredibly corrosive.

And the more you know about it, the more you learn about it, you start seeing performers that come into the industry. They're dead. Later, you start seeing people that, you know, really are treated poorly. And then that becomes a part of the thing to where you wonder what the cost of your pleasure is on somebody else. Particularly as you get older, because you get older, but the new budding star is the same age. They're always 21, 22, 23, sometimes 19. And you just start to go, wow.

And that changes things a little bit. is as you're watching porn or as you're indulgent into something like that, that might be healthy for you, but is it healthy to indulge in something in an industry that is sometimes usury and unhealthy? Well, I think that what you're talking about is like where your values alignment is. And like when you think about values alignment, if it feels important for you to watch content

where the performers are a certain, age or a certain race or a certain demographic, can you imagine a world where that exists? Yeah. Yes. So. Blacktouch.com. Then, like, and there's so many, like, ways to have ethical porn and ethical porn sites.

Yeah. And you know them? I do. Blacktouch.com? Yeah, I do. It's like real black people having real black sex. Yeah. I don't, I don't, you know, like I said, I'm off, I'm off of the game.

But if I was in the game, I was still in the game, that's like, it's good, it's good, clean porn. Right. And so if that exists and if that feels important for your pleasure, then I think that that is something really wonderful to explore. And a lot of times people watch porn and don't want to have that type of sex. Like it's really common actually for women to watch more like what's considered hardcore violent porn. Like they might watch more gangbangs. They might watch more like deep throat or hardcore anal or something. And it could be. I want it here. I want it. Or CNC, which is like consensual, non-consensual, also called like rape, rape porn. It's common that people fantasize about things. Even if they think this is gross, it's disgusting. It doesn't have to be like, I watch a gang bang. I want to get gang banged. It could just be like, I want to watch this. I want to come. And then I'm done with it. So you might watch this and be like, okay, the performers in this porn are younger. I don't want to date. somebody this age. I don't want to have sex with somebody this age. This is what I'm watching and that can live in my relationship with porn. That's for most porn. So moving off of that,

I want to have a conversation that talks a little bit more about or ask you what you think about specifically men here, because I'll say this. My relationship to sex early on, as much as it was formed by my mother's openness and her intelligence and her willingness to have any conversation with me. My mom was just like sometimes I paint her as a free spirit, but she was down to talk to you, talk to you even if it was to shock you. My father, who we've talked extensively about on this podcast, it's almost fucking his podcast, but his relationship was different.

You accessed your manhood. Part of it was through sex. part of it was through whether or not a woman wanted to sleep with you. Now, there was a certain care that he would want you to put into that. He would be like, there's a thing. You have to care for a woman. You have to take away her reasons not want to, for her to not want to have sex with you, right?

That was his thing. Like, don't give her a reason to not want to have sex with you. How, as an older man, do I teach ethical and response sexual attitudes to younger men. Like, is there a blueprint? Is there a way that we should re-educate ourselves to re-educate young boys and young girls? But to me, I'm saying young boys because, you know,

I talk to that, I'm into other young boys. What do you think you would have wanted to know? Oh, good question. I've never actually thought about this. I would have just wanted to have a conversation about sex itself and not about um coxmanship or

game which is what my dad gave me right yeah yeah i just wanted to have a conversation because like i remember the first time i was in the seventh grade and i saw a bra strap and it blew my mind i saw a bra strap on the girl blew my mind i was like it's titty's behind it but she actually has tities for real tities are not just on TV

titties are on the bus with me And I thought about that the whole way home. And I really, what I wanted to go home and go to my dad, was like, Dad, can we just have a conversation about like titties? Yeah. And I don't feel like that was going to happen in that situation. It might have. But when we talked about sex, we didn't talk about that.

Yeah. It was either a laugh or wink and a nod, him having fun with his brothers, or it was about this is how you get a girl to have sex with you. So my curiosity would have been more about just stuff that I saw for him to kind of break it down. Yeah. So you're asking about comprehensive sex education. And that is definitely something that we can all have continually with ourselves at our ages now and two younger people. And talking about sex for not just also like the abstinence only conversations or like the fear-based conversations,

which is like how to not get pregnant, how to not get pregnant, how to not. get an STI, how to be afraid of sex. So it sounds like you just wanted to know what it is. Yeah, a little bit more. And I think that that's really great because a lot of us, it was just like, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex, and then have sex and be good at it. Rather than this is what bodies look like. This is what things might smell like.

This is what bodies might do. I think like, this is what different types of vulvas look like. This is what different types of penises look like. This is how long erections might last. This is what an orgasm is. Like things that you can just talk about. And kids might ask you or younger people might ask you. And you might not know the answer and that's okay.

And then it's finding the answer together. I would say on the flip side for me, if I was asking for women, it's, well, one, if you were asking me the question, what would I have wanted to know? I would have not wanted sex to be tied to religion because it very much so was. And guilt and shame and fear. And the other thing, even if you don't have the religious aspect, I feel is for women, it's very romanticized of when you have it the first time. It is like stars are going to start shooting up and, you know, like fireworks. And it's going to be this most amazing, beautiful thing. And that person that you give it to, like a fairy tale is that's who you're going to be tied to for the rest of your life.

And I would have wanted to know the reality of it. So like almost, I guess fans question the same way, but for women, how do we? combat that or how do you have those conversations? And maybe the question too is, you know, for me, so I'm giving you a lot, but for me, I didn't get it at home, so I sought it with my friends. It was like, well, let me just go to my friends to get it. And or teach me, you know, like how to do this, you know, and that's not always great either. So should it be taught in school would be the next question to that as well. Yeah, absolutely. If it's taught in a comprehensive way, that also talks about, you know,

pleasure, gender identity, sexuality, all of those things. You believe all of that should be taught in school? Absolutely. Absolutely. From, and, like, the way you can talk about consent and things like that is you can talk about that from kids, little kids. You know, if you want to give somebody a hug or not, that's a conversation about consent.

But to your point, the tie to purity culture and, like, your virtue and big words of things like that or losing your virginity, which has its own weight to it. And then you think about how you've disappointed people. And I think that that is what comes along with it for a lot of women and girls. What does this mean about me now that I have done this? And, you know, the difference between shame and guilt, which I might be familiar with is shame is that I am something bad and guilt is that I've done something bad. And so shame is like you then feel like I am disgusting. I am not lovable. Nobody will want me. I'm broken. I'm used goods. All of those like that language. And I think that for women and for girls, I would just want people to feel like your sexuality is yours to do with

what you want. And that might include not having sex. That might include having a bunch of sex. That might include, you know, talking with people about it. That might not. But I think like understanding that your sexuality actually has very little to do with your religion. Wow. Camille Lewis, do you have a book? I don't have a book. I should. You should.

Shane! All right. I'll get right on it. Shane, I'm telling you. I know you do so. And I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what else you do, too. We talked a lot about sex just because it's been a topic of conversation. We come from different places.

We have different takes. He's a guy. I'm a girl. All these different things. Our audience is very involved with, you know, know, our takes as well. Just thought it would be really great. But you talk about the other things that you offer as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Also, talking about sex is great. I can do it all day. So, no worries. You're getting more comfortable with it. Yeah. You look really comfortable with your hands crossed. Oh, no, I just say that.

This is a new position for me. I normally have my shoes off and my legs crossed. You say what? It's a new what? Here you go. A lot. A lot. She's losing it.

up guys. No, no, no, no. Just in time for summer. Just in time for summer, fellas. Just in time for summer. Doing a lord's work. Hot girl's summer here for age. But no, you were saying. Yeah. So, I helped to run a private practice and it is mostly focused on queer and sex therapy population. So a lot of

intersexual identities, identity work, relationship work, a lot of sex therapy. And I also teach up Pepperdine. I teach human sexuality to the master's program where I did my master's. So

religious school. It is a religious school. The waves. Religious school. And what is it like teaching sex ed at a religious school? It's not great. It's okay. Because I don't teach it at the undergrad level.

I don't even think that they would allow it. Right. But the human sexuality course is only one unit. It's five weeks rather than a full semester. So it even like institutionally teaches you that this isn't important. And every time I teach it, all the students are always like, wait, why don't we get more of this? Of course. Yeah.

Camille Lewis, thank you for joining us on higher learning. We're going to continue to talk about sex. Yeah. And maybe celebrate your reentry into the point. I don't think I can. Okay. I've made promises. All right.

Like, I don't think I can. Plus, like I said, I'm getting a lot more done. Okay. And so, you know, I don't think, I think I can. But I can tell you what, I can look back in my time much more favorably now. You freed me. You've opened me up. And just like Rachel, this summer, fellas, right here, we're going to do pop the balloon.

Okay. With Richard. Camille, thanks for joining this. Thank you so much. All right, that's enough. Happy birthday, Rach, happy birthday, my house. Happy birthday, Rach. What are you going to do for the rest of the day?

I'm going to kick it. I've got to go see sinners again. Senators. And I have a nice home-cooked meal. Just chill. Had the party this weekend. You showed up. They acted like everybody was excited.

Everyone was like, where was Van? I'm not going to tell you what he was doing. Because he was obviously prioritizing things over me. That's neither here nor there. He eventually came. It was a great time. Had the party this weekend. And, yeah, now I'll just kick it.

And it's happy birthday to Kalika. We love Kalika. We went to our friend's house, and she had Peloton bikes everywhere. Cycle House. She's an OG in it. Oh, people was wondering if she was slanging Pelotons on the side. No, no, no, no. She's an OG for Cycle House?

Like, just cycling, period. Shout out to Nichelle Heinz. Shout out to Nichol. Like, it was Pelotons everywhere. Everybody was having fun. Everybody was in good mood. Great. I met How to Make It in the Marathon.

Finally, you met Brian. The good one. That nigga of the man. We love Brian. How to make it in America was shout out to Brian. Shout to Jamie, man. Shout to Grant. You know, the...

You love our crew. I love y'all crew. And I'm so happy that you finally got to be a part of it. Now you got to come back. Yeah, let's see. All right. Take 10 caps off, but do not stop. I'm Valerickton Jr.

I'm Rachel and Leslie. Bye, guys.