Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Stacey Abrams on Modern Voter Suppression and What Her Plan Would've Been As Georgia Governor

Episode Date: September 4, 2020

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by former House minority leader Stacey Abrams to discuss modern voter suppression tactics, the Trump administration, and what Abrams would’ve done had she been elected governor of Georgia. Then they discuss the recent video out of Rochester, New York, that resulted in the suspension of seven police officers; talk about Jessica Krug lying about being Black; and then answer a couple mailbag questions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning. Put your thinking caps on. It is I, Van Lathen. What's up, y'all's. I, Rachel Lindsay. You don't like it?

This is I. I do like it. It's becoming a thing for you. It is I. Do you feel powerful when you say it like that? Because I feel like you do. I feel important. It is I.

That's what like a king says. You ever see that movie? I was going to say, the man in the Iron Mask. Remember that? I can't believe you started off a sentence saying, have you seen the movie when you know what the next response is going to be? You know what? It's my fault. You are actually right. I apologize. Big Rache. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab.

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Trading derivatives involve significant. risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at bandole.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash herms. No, but in that movie, I love that movie is Lina R de Caprio and he's

like, it's the three musketeers and they're putting the brother in the mask and the other mask and Leonardo de Caprio is all formal and stuff like that. It is I is something that they would say in that movie. I saw when I was a kid. What's going on with you, Rachel? Like, how, how is your day been today? How are things?

Man. So I got back late last night from Aruba, which is where we recorded last time. Great vacation. They made us feel safe. It was very romantic. Great getaway. Great way to cap off one year for us. Then I come back today and I get a call that's like, hey, first it was, can you interview

Tyra for dancing with the stars? And I was like, oh, no, I can't. I have some conflict. Then they were like, well, we got a. request for you to interview Donald Trump, Jr. I wanted to tell you so bad before I actually did it, but I wanted

to reaction on here. I said no at first because I felt conflicted. I didn't know because this isn't big rage and van on higher learning where it's our podcast and you know, like we can come at people a certain way. And there's a way to, there's a way to interview

people on a podcast versus doing it for extra, you know, as a journalist, I can't debate. I'm not supposed to be an attorney. I'm supposed to be, you know, like hit with the facts. So I didn't feel like I could do that. And then I felt that if I did do it, that I wouldn't be true to myself. So I was like, can you give me like an hour to figure out if this is what I really want to do? So I call my dad, because that's what I go to. I call my dad. And, you know, he's just like basically give me the steps, like be careful if you're going to do it, do this, A, B, C, D. So finally, I'm just like, I talked to

Brian and I'm like, you know what? All right, I'm going to do it. I'm going to talk to him. So he has a new book out called Liberal Privilege. Okay. Liberal privilege. Doesn't really make sense, which I said, I actually said. So anyways, I talked to Extra and I'm just like, listen, can I challenge him? How do I have to conduct this interview? I'm not going to feel comfortable if I'm just like,

hey, how's the book? How's it going? Anyways, they were like, no, you know, be yourself. So it was to be expected. This is a, he's a hard person to interview in the sense that you're getting the same rhetoric, the same propaganda, the same arguments made over and over again where you really can't get anywhere. And at the same time, I'm not there to point out, that's a lie, that's a lie, that's a lie, that's not true. You know, I would just say certain things, I questioned him about Jacob Blake's family and why the Trump administration hasn't spoken on it or why they haven't. why he didn't visit the family when he was there.

I talked about Portland. I talked about, of course, you know, their new topic is Nancy Pelosi in the hair salon. And he said that's what liberal privilege is. Liberals doing whatever they want. Nobody says anything. But I pointed out that Ted Cruz also got his haircut in a salon in the pandemic. And nobody saying anything about that. So, yeah, it was combative to the point where Kimberly came in.

at one point. And we sat down and I talked to her as well about the convention and then things got a little bit lighter. So it would be interesting to see what heirs because we definitely went at it when he did not condemn Kyle Rittenhouse when he said he's never heard anybody say Black Lives Don't Matter. And yeah.

So it was an interesting day. Let me ask you a question. Who are the other people on Extra with you? Why? I'm just asking. Who are the other? I was just asking. Who are the only people? In the LA office, it is Billy Bush. Right. So that wasn't going to happen. Which is my point. Billy Bush.

Jen Lomers is another one. And then it could have been Nate Berluson. Yeah, he's, he is out of New York. He's the main person in New York. But we're all Zoom, so we do everything. And then there's Chesley Christ, who's a former Miss USA Pets. Black attorney. Black. She's black. No, look, here's the thing. People don't understand.

Interviews are, they're little art house pieces. And it depends on the platform they're drawn. Now here, you know, we're free will and we're doing all of this stuff like that. We're going back and forth. It took everything in me not to say, why don't you come on our podcast? Yeah, yeah. Come on.

Donald Jr., come over here. You smug looking milk toast. But anyway, So yeah, look, I get it. You can be hamstrung. You know, you can't really get deep into these things with him. And he's on there to promote something. I guess my thing is, I mean, his thing, they weren't going to have Billy Bush do that.

Nope. Couldn't do it. Couldn't have Billy Bush do it, especially. I wonder if Billy just completely heard that Donald Trump was come, Donald Trump was coming on and just threw his mic into the water. Just saying, you know what? I don't even want to be near a mic. But no, so look, you got to do the interview, though, because you're a big rage and your big rage here. You've got to do the interview.

I mean, we can't, it's a, if people often say, here's the thing. People often say why give something like that a platform? And there's an interesting sort of math equation you have to do in your head when you're talking about that. If there is somebody at the fringes who no one sees or ever hears from, then yeah, why make that person a celebrity give them your platform? But if there's somebody that already has a ginormous, enormous platform, like, oh, I'd say maybe the son of a president who seems to be the mascot of all of his father's ideals, then there's really no way you can add to the platform. Like, all you can really do is challenge the ideas. And it's your job to interview people. So not all of those people are going to be people that you did.

But this was the first time that I had faced this conflict. And I really was like, am I being true to myself? if I interview him. I think that's what it is because there's a platform and a voice that we have on this podcast which I feel like

embodies who I am. And then to go on there and have to be bipartisan and to ask certain questions but not debate and not call lies out was very difficult for me. Yeah.

But I have a job to do. You got to do it. So like when I was at TMZ, we got a call one time. The TMZ had put a story up about something. even though I was still in the field at that time, like with my camera and stuff. But they got a call and the call was from Lamar Odom.

And he was super pissed off. He was super pissed off. He wanted to come to TMZ and talk to somebody. This is Lamar, you know, very, very, very upset Lamar Odom. This is before he had all the health issues that he had and stuff like that. but there had been some story that had gone up, and he was mad. So, and this goes back to my point of why they might have chose you to do that interview. Okay.

You know, interviews, interviews get casted, right? They know who you are, what it is that you bring to the table and your perspective and your point of view. So I always look at things like that. That's almost, if you put me in a position to do an interview like that, you're giving me carte blanche to attack or defend. or whatever. You must want that because if not, then why would you ask me to do it? You know what I mean?

Well, that's what I felt like, but they told me that they requested me. Oh, well, then, same thing. And I was like, why? Do they listen to the higher learning? Why? They requested you because they want, they wanted to get it on with a liberal.

That's what they wanted. A black woman, which you couldn't go too far, right? It wouldn't have been in his best interest to go too far. even though he told me that he's never heard anybody say Black Lives don't matter. Now, you're stupid. It's dumb. Like they say all the time. They're going to make T-shirts pretty soon.

But here's the thing. So Lamar Odom got super upset, right? And Lamar Odom's pissed off. I wasn't on the phone call. What did you do? Well, so this is what happened. I didn't do anything. Like, it has nothing to do with me.

Like, there had been an interview that was something that they had put on the website. I wasn't in the news department. yet. I was still in the field. So anyway, I come back to the office and I see Harvey up there on the phone and he looks concerned because you have to remember Lamar Odom, gigantic dude, all of this. And these people are wusses. Like, they don't know. You know what I mean? Like they're scared of a big scared of black guy. So I remember what they did. It's like, I walk into the office and Harvey's up there, like, Van Liss. Lamar Odom is, he's really interested in coming up here and having a talk. And I have no idea what's going on, by the way. Don't know anything. It's like, uh, He's going to come here to the office. I'm like, he's going to come to the building? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, we can't have him come into the building. We're going to send you to the Home Depot parking lot across the street.

And you're going to get the interview with Lamar Odom. Once again, I had no clue what was going on. Right. I didn't understand why he couldn't come in. I'm like, well, what's that about? And they're like, no, because it's going to be a street interview. Like, you know what I mean? Oh, I know what it was about.

You couldn't record. TMZ had a deal with the property owner people that you couldn't record. Nobody from TMZ could record any video on site. So you, so because they didn't want us because it was like Sony and Microsoft and a couple of other people there. So that means that they didn't want people that, you know, celebrities that were coming in there do video games and stuff like that to be shot with cameras. So we had to sign something that said we wouldn't record. So if Lamar Odom wanted the interview. and TMZ Live and all of those things were over,

we had to do it off-site. So I get the camera and I go over to the Home Depot parking lot to interview Lamar Odo. And I remember I said, yo, Lamar, what's up, brother? And he looks at me, he goes, you ain't my fucking brother.

And I was like, oh shit, this motherfucker is pissed off. And that interview is still up right now you can go watch it. I did my best. Me, I thought we got a mean, I did my best to try to calm him down and just have a conversation with him. Did he calm down? He kind of did. Lamar's a good guy. Lamar is a really good guy. They probably have put some bullshit up about him. I cannot be mad at him for being angry. Lamar is a good guy. Great guy. But like, here's the thing. I thought about that.

Interview, having someone doing an interview is a casting process. And your executives, they cast these interviews. Well, we're going to send this person to talk to this person. We're going to send this person to talk to this person. We're going to send this person to talk to this person. In this situation, they thought, hey, we're going to send Van, 6'4 black guy to go out there and talk to him. Because we don't know if Lamar Odo will squash anybody else that's in the office. So since then, I always asked the question whenever I had to interview anyone for anything, why?

if this person is particularly controversial or in a particular situation, why does this interview make sense for me? Why? What's the reason? Okay. And then when you give me the reason why you're sending me out to talk to them,

then I'll give you the reason why I have to talk to them the way I have to talk to them. Totally makes sense. Right. And so that was the thing with me. But in that situation, you know why. They asked. So if they asked, they want to be rich.

Why? Why did they ask? Why? Are they Bachelor for? fans? They probably are. No, they didn't mention one word about Bachelor. But I think that's because it got contentious.

And then they sent her in to kind of smooth things out. Kimberly, Gilfoil? I asked him about his watery eyes and everything. And do you know what he said? He goes, which shouldn't be shocking. I asked him about his watery eyes. Do you want to set the record straight? He said, well, he said, he said his eyes were watery because they tear up every time

he thinks about the slaves being set free. You know. But he said something about the lights flashing in his eye. And he goes, but they were talking about cocaine. And I said, oh, that's not me. That's Hunter Biden. And I said, okay. Okay.

Okay. I said, well, actually, it was trending on Twitter with for you, but I'm going to ask the next question. He's probably so sad about the emancipation proclamation. I don't like him. I think I dislike him more than the father. Well, that's because, no, because of what you're saying. I get there's a point. He's a mascot.

He's literally a puppet, just spewing out rhetoric, trying to be a superstar in the Republican Party. Yeah. It says a lot of nothing. Yeah. Which is what the interview was. A lot of nothing. Look, we have a very, very special episode of higher learning for you guys today because we have a very, very special guest. There are very few times that we've had people.

people on this podcast, period, but also very few times that we've had people on this podcast who represent historic firsts. And the lady, the amazing woman that we're about to have on the podcast right now that's about to join us, is representative of a historic first. This is the first black woman to ever be a gubernatorial nominee in American history. She ran and was, in my opinion, unfairly defeated for the governor's seat in Georgia in 2018. She is also the founder of Fair Fight Action, which is an organization that is fighting and combating voter suppression all over the country, working to make sure that every American vote counts.

This is former Democratic minority leader in the U.S. Georgia House of Representatives. Let's welcome Stacey Abrams to higher learning. Okay, so all in the fight for democracy is the documentary. I watched it. Rachel watched it. Yes. It is a very, very powerful piece of media which you star in.

It seems to discuss all of the ways that the powers that be, or I guess, you know, some powers that be are trying to. take the vote away from so many Americans. Right now, why is this your fight? This plus work that you're doing with your organization. What about this moment has made this the thing that is resonating with you the most? So I began working on voting rights when I was in college. It happened in part because I'm the daughter of two civil rights activists.

My parents participated in the civil rights movement as teenagers. My dad was arrested registering people to vote when he was 14 in Haddysburg, Mississippi. We like to tease them that my mom was doing the same work. She just didn't get caught. But we were raised to believe that the right to vote is not just sacred. It is the centerpiece of power that your ability in a democracy to determine your future is predicated on your ability to cast a vote. And if you look at the arc of history, our history as Americans has been all. always driven by who gets to vote and who doesn't.

My election or my campaign in 2018, I think, put it into sharp relief. And so when this documentary became an opportunity, for me, it was about telling about the history of voter suppression, but anchoring it in the possibility of this election and this moment. Because if we have ever needed to understand the power of choosing our leaders, now is the time and this is the moment. Yeah, you talk, the film really goes into the history. This is something, I mean, it's absolutely amazing. It's something that I think should be a part of the curriculum. Yeah. For the young people to really understand the history of voter suppression because I feel like it's a word that is being used,

but not everyone understands the depth of it. And something that the film focuses on, obviously is the 1965 signing of the Voters Rights Act. But then you also discuss what happened in 2013 with the Supreme Court. case, Shelby County versus Holder. And I want to just talk a little bit about what developed from that Supreme Court ruling because I think a lot of people think, okay, in 1965, you know, everyone was able to have the right to vote, but they don't understand what happened in 2013 and what trickled down from that in the aftermath from that Supreme Court ruling. Sure. So let's remember that, you know, it was at the beginning of our country, only white men with property could vote. It was,

was the 15th Amendment that said black men could vote. The 19th Amendment said white women could vote. It wasn't until the Voting Rights Act that really everyone else who was eligible otherwise because of their citizenship, that's when they were actually brought into the ability to vote. But the reason it matters so much is that the Constitution says who can vote, but the states determine how you can vote. And because of that delegation to the states, all the Constitution tells you is that you have the right to ask, but it's then to go talk to the states to see if you get to use that right. And what the Voting Rights Act did from 1965 until 2013 is protect us. It said you are not allowed as a state to stop someone from voting because you don't like who they are and you don't like

what they look like. And that prohibition meant that for the first time in American history, millions of people could participate without fear or with less fear. But what happened in 2013, with that Supreme Court case, they said all problems are fixed. Racism is gone. Everyone who wants to participate can. States, we trust you again. Within hours, the state of Texas passed one of the most restrictive voter ID laws in the nation. Within five years of that decision. Millions of people have been purged from the rolls. 1600 precincts polling places had been shut down. And it doesn't sound like a lot, but in Georgia in 2018, when they shut down 214 polling places, up to 85,000 people physically could not

cast a ballot because they could not get there. So what happened with Shelby v. Holder was the evisceration, not only of the Voting Rights Act, but it was the evisceration of the only protection most of us have ever enjoyed in order to participate in our system, particularly if you were a person of color, if you were a young person, if you were a poor person, and if you lived in the South. So one thing that the documentary does incredibly well is it goes into the long and deep history of voting rights, of voter suppression, and really makes it crystal clear what the stakes are, what the stakes are now and what the stakes have been historically. And it really does a good job of telling people what a gigantic issue this absolutely is.

Even with that, though, I still run into young people all the time who don't think that their vote counts, who don't think that their vote matters, who voted both ways, well, not both ways, who voted specific ways and haven't really seen much difference in their communities. What do you say to disaffected voters or voters who no longer believe that they need to turn out

in order to change the landscape of America, because the documentary says that the best way to beat this voter suppression is to get as much turnout as we can. But it seems like people are talking at cross purposes to that. What's the message? How do you change those minds? Number one, you have to acknowledge that people aren't wrong. For a lot of voting doesn't work. And the reason it doesn't work is that voter suppression is hyper-local.

We're watching it happen at the presidential level. We're watching him talk about it. But it happens at the local level. In the state of Georgia, we, saw a majority black school district for the first time elect people of color to represent it, black women, they were arrested for using absentee ballots to get elected. They didn't do anything wrong. They just won their elections. And they threw out the rules. And this was 10 years ago. This isn't back in 1800s or 1600s. This is 2010. And the man who led that is the governor of

Georgia today. He was the Secretary of State at the time. And he had them arrested and charged with 120 felonies. And so part of the reality is voting is a process. It's not a moment. We don't elect saviors and it is not a magic pill that solves problems. Voting takes time. It's like any other skill or any other procedure. If you think about it like the disease of racism or the disease of inequality, a disease doesn't get cured overnight. You've got to keep applying the treatment. You've got to keep trying. And the problem is when we try too hard and they notice, they change the rules to stop us from coming back, and particularly in communities that are underserved and underrepresented, they're seeing the truth that when they tried to vote that one time, the next

time they tried something happened or somebody didn't do what they were supposed to. And you give up because you were raised to believe that voting solved problems. Voting isn't the solution. It's how we get to the solutions. It's how we hire the people who impose those solutions. And it's how we fire them. And so part of our responsibility is to reorient what we say voting is. But it's also to understand that suppression is real.

And because suppression is real, they're going to make it hard for you to change things. They're going to make it hard for you to fix the problems that you see. Because their power is predicated on your silence. And you are going to be most silent if it seems harder to get what you need than to just give up. It's so interesting that you talk about it being a disease because the film, has come out and even now, there are more things that are happening that we're talking about right now with like the United States Postal Service. It just keeps going on and on and on. I'm interested as to what, you know, since the film does deal with the past and what has happened,

I'm interested in what parallels you see in what is happening from back then to what is happening right now in America today, specifically with the United States Postal Service. So we know that voter suppression has always been predicated on taking systems that everyone relies on, and wielding them against those whomever is imposing voter suppression, they're trying to use those systems against you. And let's be clear, while voter suppression in the 21st century is almost uniformly the tactic being used by Republicans, it was Democrats who did Jim Crow in the South, in the 19,

basically post-Reconstruction through 1965. And so I don't want anyone to think that this is just the province of Republicans. It's the province of anyone who thinks their power can be threatened by those, who they consider unworthy trying to take on their power as a citizen. And so that's the first parallel, that it's always targeted at communities who are considered too uppity, who are trying to stand up and use their population and use their power to create change. And fortunately, for the black community, we've been the through line for most of American history,

but it's also affecting communities of color, Latino and Asian American, Native Americans have been treated horribly by it. And so one parallel would be Native Americans weren't. not citizens in our country until 1924. And so their disenfranchisement was that they weren't even given the right to vote here. You jump forward to 2018, the same Native American populations were told in North Dakota, well, you can vote, but you have to have a residential address on your ID. The problem is the state and the local governments would not give them residential addresses. So they created a law they knew could not be met. And so thousands of Native Americans were not.

permitted to vote in 2018 and Supreme Court when that case got to them, they said, well, it doesn't affect the vast majority of North Dakotaans, so we are not going to rule it unconstitutional. It only affected Native Americans, but since they're not the majority of the population, they're expendable. Voter ID is the current iteration of let's talk, well, let me use polling places and poll taxes. In pre-voting rights act, poll taxes were literally a tax use. you had to pay to be permitted to register to vote and to cast a ballot. But when we say tax, we're not talking like, you know, the five cents. We're talking amongst wages.

These exorbitant prices you had to pay for the right to vote. And they said, well, you don't have to pay the tax because it was supposed to be racially neutral. They said, well, fine. Everyone has to pay the tax unless your grandfather was eligible to vote. Well, if you were black, your grandfather was a slave. there's no way to meet it. So only white people could vote. Well, today you have certain polling places that get shut down disproportionately in black and brown communities.

And they argue, well, you can, you know, you can go and vote. We just moved it, you know, 10 miles down the road. Well, if you don't live in a place with public transit and you don't have a car, it's a tax. If you have to take off from work for eight hours and they can, they can't fire you for not being there, but they can dock your pay. That's a poll tax. And we saw what happened in Florida when returning citizens got reenfranchised and they said, fine, you can have your right to vote back, but you've got to pay a fee or a fine that we never told you about and you can't prove you owe, but until you can disprove the negative, we're not going to let you register. Poll taxes in the 1650s, poll taxes in 2020.

Another story that the documentary tells, if you don't mind me saying this, is the unique exceptionalism of Stacey-Aid. we get to see where you came from. We get to see, I love this. Like, if they made a documentary about this, like this about me, where they show all, whatever. There was a part of the documentary where they show all of the many accolades

that you were able to accumulate throughout. They would go back all the way to the first grade. And Stacey is always. But it's good, though. And I tell you something, about that part, it made me sad, and I tell you why. It made me sad because I'm looking at somebody uniquely and fiercely exceptional that I believe voter suppression kept from the highest office in the land there in Georgia. And I think about capitalization and how we're not getting the

people that we should be getting in America in the positions that they should be in because of some of these things that are happening. I wonder, from your perspective, how would Georgia be different today if Stacey Abrams were governor? One, we would have a plan in place to fight COVID. Not a, you know, our governor believes in the power of suggestion. I actually believe that you should tell people what they should do. That's why they hired you. And that means mask mandates.

It means making sure that the thousands of Georgians that are being exposed to this disease every day because of the ineptitude and the willful ignorance of the current governor, that that would be reversed. There would be Medicaid expansion. You would not have hospitals shutting down in the midst of a pandemic. We've lost two hospitals. And that's because Georgia is one of 11 states that has refused to acknowledge that the right to health care is not only good for the soul and good for the body, it's good for the purse. And we're one of a few states, and there are Democratic and Republican states that have expanded Medicaid, but Georgia would join it. And right now, we have 1.4 million people who do not have health insurance. We have half a million people

who would be covered if we expanded Medicaid. That's an extraordinary thing. And it would create 56,000 new jobs. If I were governor, we would not have slashed almost a billion dollars from public education, knowing that education is the best transportation for its progress in a community. And if I were governor, I would be doing the work of making sure that those who are incarcerated in our states, we're not dying disproportionately from a disease because we have thrown them away and decided their lives aren't valuable. I would be doing the work of justice before they get into our carceral system while they're in our carceral system, when they leave it, and justice that says that they don't go to our carceral system simply because we're afraid of them or because they look

because they're black, because they're brown, because they're poor. Those are the things I'd be working on. Right? Wow, exactly. Staying in Georgia, I know that you have, well, one, I want to say that we're seeing people use their platforms who have them in a way that we never have before, specifically in sports. And I want to stay in Georgia because I know that you're supporting Reverend Warnock in the Georgia Senate race. And although you aren't running for office, you have been quite the topic of conversation with those who are running in the Senate. And you know what I'm talking about. But I am very curious as to what your response was to see the WNBA players wearing T-shirts. supporting Reverend Warnock against Kelly Loughler,

who's been very outspoken against Black Lives Matter. So I helped bring the Atlanta Dream to Georgia. I was part of the original team of folks to, we actually, it was a weird group. We came together and we found ourselves an owner to buy the team. I then worked with that owner to sell the team to the new owner. And then I worked with that owner, Kathy Betty, to bring on Kelly Luffler and Mary Brock.

But through it all, the Atlanta Dream has been the team, these young women are committed to justice. They have always been at the forefront of speaking, not just their minds, but speaking truth to power and then putting themselves into action. It is the Atlanta dream as part of the WMBA that have always been calling us to our better selves. And when they looked at what Leffler said, her willingness to, I would say, walk away from any notion that she intends to actually serve all of Georgia and her attempt to demonize a movement and make it reductive and to be vicious about its intent,

their willingness to say that who we vote for matters and their willingness to write it on their t-shirts and proudly march and be joined in solidarity by other women in the WMBA, that to me is an extraordinary testament to why voting matters. Because, no, we're not going to get everything we want, but we can tell people what we need and we can show them how we intend to have them treat us. I know we're getting towards the end here, but there's one question I have to ask you. Oh, actually two questions.

Well, the great event. The first one is I heard you on Mark Maren's podcast. And when you were on Mark Marners podcast, you talked about the specific danger of what we could be seeing in the transformation of the Trump presidency from what I believe, just an incompetent president. an incompetent presidency to an authoritarian regime getting towards there. That was a little while ago that earlier this summer that you had that talk with Mark Mann. I think it was around, I think it was around June. I am actually one of the people just from having studied world history who is more concerned, bordering on terrified at the playbook that the administration seems to be following,

which is the autocrat fascist playbook. Okay. That to me seems to be enough of a rent alarm to get everybody to go out and vote. How, for someone who has, how specifically dangerous is the Trump administration? I personally believe that if reelected, we could be seen maybe the end of our democracy, the end of our republic, the end of our republic, the end of America. Am I wrong for thinking that? No, not at all.

So I wrote a book back that came out in June called Our Time is Now, and I dedicate an entire chapter to this issue. Populism is a point of entry to authoritarianism. And that's exactly what we're watching. You begin with a man, typically it's men, who are coarse and who are departures from the norm. And they are so wild and different. they attract the attention of those who feel disaffected.

They get elected. They then surround themselves with cronies, not with competent leadership, but with cronies. They then try to take over things like, oh, I don't know, the judiciary. They are typically suborned by their acolytes and sycophants in the other chambers. And then they start to dismantle access to the checks and balances on their power, namely the media, inspectors general, and anyone who dares question them. But they also try to rig the future and build the future they want by rigging elections, by trying to stop people from getting access through voter suppression. They typically target minority communities because minority

communities are typically the ones who need the help the most and are therefore the greatest threat to power. And the last thing they do is erasure. They try to either silence those communities or erase their power. And that's why we're watching quietly. Unfortunately, I've been raising the alarm. We're about to have the most inaccurate census in history, where they are going to use something called statistical imputation to guess at the race and demography of up to 50 million Americans. That means that the erasure of black and brown communities will happen at a scale we have never seen. And because Donald Trump is a symptom and the figurehead, he is not the architect of this, they've been working at this for the whole of the 21st century. They started by eviscerating

the Voting Rights Act. They then got a decision in 2016 that says they can ignore communities of color and say basically if you're not a citizen, you aren't counted for the purposes of redrawing the lines. And that means children of color. The fastest growing cohort of young people are children of color, they get ignored. And then the Rucho decision that says that partisan gerrymandering is fine. Well, the last piece of the puzzle is to say that if you use the census as it is likely to come in, because they've artificially ended it, they're going to try to end it on September 30th, as opposed to October 31st, which they said is what they needed. They're going to deliver the data without fully vetting it, knowing that once it becomes, once it's delivered to the

president, it's the law of the land. What this means is that they can erase millions of black people, millions of Latinos, millions of communities of color from the census so that when maps are drawn to determine power for the next 10 years, according to the memo that told them how to do it, the United States will look wider and more Republican than it has in decades. If you want to erase people and hold your power and make certain they can't fight back, you make sure that you draw political districts where they can never amass enough power to elect anyone who represents them. that's what they're doing right now with the U.S. census.

And the problem is the Roberts Court and Supreme Court is not going to stop them. And what's even worse is that once it happens, if Joe Biden becomes the president of the United States, because the census is a constitutional issue, he can't undo it. He can't even sue on it because the evidence is the evidence is presented by the Trump administration. Wow. When you hear that. Fill out your census. Please, please fill out your census because that is the only.

only way we can thwart them. We're fighting to make sure that we get an extension, but we need everybody who wants to be counted and be present and to recover from COVID. If you want resources to your communities, if you want political power for your future, fill out the 2020 census. Sorry to end on such a dark note. No, that's okay. No, no. It's fantastic. It was fantastic. Thank you so much. The only thing I wanted to ask for you is like, you're from Atlanta. What's your favorite outcast song. There's no way to have a favorite outcast song. That's the answer. That's a perfect answer. That's how you know. That is the answer. That's how you know. There's no one. Stacey, Abrams. Thank you so much for being here. For being with us today. You have really graces. And I hope that

everyone took something from what Ms. Abrams had to say, Mrs. Abrams had to say about voting and about voter suppression. It is a big, big, big, big, huge. issue. All in the Fight for Democracy is the documentary. So we hope that everybody goes out and watches the documentary. Stacey, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you guys. Bye, bye. All right. So, wow, boy, we, we big time. We had Stacey Abrams. Right. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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We're asking some fire questions Boy, we like we What? I don't know Hey, hey, hey, Raych, way to go Rach, way to go, way to go You know what I'm feeling it. Can't wait for the documentary to drop

I'm telling it's dope I haven't that whole thing, man It's dope. Now, unfortunately, we have more news that we should call, we should call this Groundhogs Day because it's happened again. Seven officers are suspended in Rochester, New York for suffocating a man. This man's name is Daniel Prude. Daniel is a man who suffered mental illness.

There's a video that is out of Daniel. I guess he's naked in the street. and some cops come upon him. There was a call because of some erratic behavior. He had been kicked off a train earlier that day. He had come from where he lived. Yes, he had come from Chicago to visit a brother that lived somewhere. His brother was there in New York.

And he had been kicked off of a train. He was acting erratically. And I guess that spiraled into him acting erratically on the streets. The cops came, placed a bag over his head, call it a spitbag. this was some time ago earlier on in the coronavirus pandemic, and they did not want to get his spit on them, so they put the bag on his head. But then proceeded to push his head into the ground, even as he screamed out, he suffocated, he died, they have been suspended, the deaths have been ruled. The death has been ruled a homicide.

Rachel, your thoughts. I mean, what to say? You said it's Groundhogs Day. We sound like a broken record. I think the troubling thing outside of the obvious murder that was done to this man at the hands of the police is that this happened six months ago. And we're just now learning about it. And that's what we're also seeing with these cases. Amad Aubrey, Brianna Taylor, all these things happened in the past and we're waiting for them to come to light. Why weren't these seven officers? Because I know they have seen this body cam footage prior to when they had to release it to the public. why are they just now suspending these officers?

Why wasn't it done the moment that you saw what happened? It's as clear as day what happened to this man. It's the clear as day that he was in need of help. It was his brother who called saying that he needed help. This was a case of mental illness, not a man who was dangerous, not a man who needed to be treated the way that he did, and then murdered in the streets at the hands of these police

who were just very flippantly laughing about the situation as they were talking over this man as they were killing him. I mean, what to say, Van, honestly? Like, what do we say? It's literally the same stuff over and over and over again. And as you have people in the government who are constantly fighting saying that there's not a systemic racism, there's not systemic racism in the police force, that there's not an issue, that there's only a couple of bad cops.

And then you continue to see these cases come to light over and over again contradicting what people are saying against police reform. And proving the point that there is something that is wrong with the police force and it needs to change. It has to change. It must be stopped. And people aren't having it anymore. And that's why you're seeing protesters come up in Rochester over what happened to Daniel Prude. Yeah. So, yeah, the man's name is Daniel Prude.

This happened back on March 23rd. This is your argument for defunding the police. And I'll tell you why. Very succinctly, very easy. This is your argument. For anyone that doesn't understand why, when they say defunding the police, this is the argument. Okay. So you have somebody right now who's having, or excuse me, somebody then,

rest and peace of Daniel Prude, who's having a mental health issue, right? He's having an issue of mental health. This man hasn't hurt anyone from what I know. He hasn't assaulted anyone. He hasn't murdered anyone. He hasn't killed anyone. He is not a suspect necessarily in any particular crime, any particular violent crime. As far as what I know, the information that's out right now, right?

So you're dealing with an issue of mental health, an issue where it would have been really, really, really awesome to have a mental health professional go out and deal with the call, right? If you had someone who knew how to deal with an individual that was having a psychotic break or going through something at all. Now, when he's on the ground, Daniel is saying all kinds of things. He's saying, yo, yo, yo, I need that gun. I need that gun. He's saying all kinds of things, but he is completely, completely incapacitated. He's cuffed. He's a threat and a danger to no one.

But it's obvious that he's suffering some sort of break. If you have someone who's been trained to deal with that, answer that call, you more than likely have an outcome that is different than somebody being dead. So if you divest money from the police who have a bloated budget, but at the same time are completely unqualified to deal with something like this, you don't end up with the worst possible scenario, which is the death of an American citizen. Once again, like we talked about with Jacob Blake, if the cops go out on a call, The worst possible thing that can happen.

The worst thing is that they can kill an American citizen that is not guilty of a crime. That's the worst outcome. And once again, we're here dealing with and negotiating culturally the worst outcome. The cops are qualified to handle that. We see it too much. We saw down in Florida, the cops light up a guy who was autistic, who was trying to surrender himself. We've seen this before. They can't deal with it.

So here's the deal. You divest money from police budgets. You put that money into creating other avenues and other parts of public safety that can address these things and make people safer. I'm telling you, like, it's not rocket science. You guys are people, people look at it and like it's a four-letter word. Are you saying, fuck the police or something like that, which is not the literally like. We're not saying that.

But I'm saying this right here has to do with how we deal with complex challenges in American society. And the way we're trying to do with them right now is too simply. And it's simply deadly. So when I saw this video, I thought, boom, there it is. Another example.

Well, you would think it would be that logical, Van, but it's not going to be. It's already logical. Like you said it, you didn't need to see another video. I know we didn't, but they don't need to see another video of somebody dying at the hands of the police when they're having a mental illness,

a mental health issue, a mental illness breakdown. Word. It's already there. It's already there. Now, I understand. Look, it's, it's tough. Once again, it was another hard video to watch.

I'm scared of myself because I watched this video. I watched it too. Shouldn't have watched it. It was a little video. We're going to keep our eyes on Rochester also. We promised you guys that we would stay more sort of invested into what's going on in Portland. Here's the thing. The news is coming so, so soon, so fast,

that we haven't been able to revisit Portland as much as we can. Next week, on one of the episodes next week, I think we're going to do a full recap of Portland and maybe try to bring somebody in there who's on the ground there who can see what's going on. Because I personally believe that it's early stages of American Civil War happening there in Portland right now. And I'll just say this.

You know, President Trump is trying to put these orders out where he's taking funds federal aid away from lawless cities. And Portland has been deemed as one of them. New York has been deemed as another. That makes absolutely no sense. but he is now withholding money in federal aid to major cities who he claims that are lawless or that are being run by Democrats and as he says, being run into the ground.

So there's an update for you right now, which goes into the civil war that's coming. You're taking a federal aid money, just adding to it. Fuel to the fire. Rachel, how black are you? How black are you? I'm asking.

I'm asking how black are you? How black are you? I wasn't to answer the question. I don't know how to define my blackness. I just know that I, that I am black. No, I ask for a percentage. Like, how black are you? I need a percentage.

I need a percentage right now. I'm 100% black. What do you mean? You're 100, you know that for sure. So you took the 23 and me. And while everybody else came back, blah, blah, blah. You all said, yo, Rachel, 100% black. I haven't taken it.

I haven't taken it. I don't need a test to tell me. I know I'm 100% black. Now, this is the reason why I asked because we're dealing with the era. of sliding and changing blackness. And one woman has decided to opt out of the blackness that she opted into such a long time ago. And this woman's name is Jessica Krug. Jessica Krug is a professor at George Washington University.

She's a professor at George Washington University, which if I was standing next to George Washington, I wouldn't want to be anything close to black because the closer you are to George Washington, if you're black, you're probably a slave because he loves slavery. But she was a professor at George Washington University. She wrote, did you read this? Did you read this? She wrote in this long thing in medium, on medium, shall I say it, about how she's coming out as not black.

Because she had been claiming she was black. She said she had been all kinds of black. She was Afro-Latina. Yeah, that's right. She was from the Korean. North African. She was North African. She was all different types of black.

Yo, that's crazy. She was blacking me. Because I'm only one black. Send her, I'm only one black. She was North African. She was, but she was eating the, she was eating the Moroccan food. She was eating the Trinidadian, uh, Afro- Caribbean food. She was eating a shout out to my

Dominicans up there at Dykman. She was up there eating some plantains and the whole night. She was doing all of it. I fuck with that. I'm not playing with Jessica. She Jessica was all kinds. And Jessica is so hurt. If you read this thing on a medium, Jessica says, look, I did all of this stuff and it's terrible. She said it's violence. She said it's racial violence

because you're taking something without asking for it, which was her blackness. So that's a violent act. And she says she's not a culture vulture. She's a culture leech. I'm not playing with Jessica. I'm not here to play with her. Why? If I went to George Washington University,

I would be filing for an immediate transfer. I would not want to be affiliated with the university that allowed this to happen. My second thought was, why in the world did we need a public announcement for this? Why did this need to be published? Just, Jessica, go away. You don't want to be black anymore?

Nobody needs a public announcement. We did not need for her to do all this. I do not understand the purpose, the meaning behind it, what she expects to get from this. We've already had Rachel. Rachel took your shine. Rachel already did this. We've seen it before.

Now we're desicitized to it. Jessica, go away. Yeah. Well, she's about to be black now because America about to say, fuck you. So she's about to understand now. She's about to understand now.

If this was like, the craziest thing is by coming out and getting away from the blackness, she's about to be black than she ever been. They're not going to let her in Starbucks. They go everywhere she go. People go look at it with the side eye. People are going to be like, oh, here she come, walk on the other side of the street. She about to learn all firsthand what it's like to be black. She didn't even know.

She didn't even know before. Why did she do it? Did she say why? I mean, why are you switching up like the background? Why are you North African, Dominican, Caribbean, like we're some type of experiment? being black isn't an experiment. This is what we got. We're born this way.

And you're playing around with our blackness. I didn't get anything from the article. I think that's what was bothering. Like, what was the purpose of this? Why did you do this? Other than growing up Jewish in Kansas City, I believe, is what she said. Her parents, she said she had some deep-seated mental issues because her parents were mean and stuff. Which, by the way, I'm not in any way making light of that.

She did. Obviously, there's something there. But she said that that's not an excuse that she just. couldn't go on living a lie anymore. I was more entertained with Rachel. Rachel was way more. Rachel was more entertaining. You like Rachel. You like Rachel Dozal more.

I think Rachel Dozol was more. You know why? Oh, I've been calling a Doziac. Is Doziac? You could be right. Is it Doziac? I'm notorious for messing up names. But I'm also not going to try to get her name right when she can't get her ethnicity or race right. So, you know. Who do you think was more believable as a sister? This is a great question. Okay, because this did cross my mind.

Rachel Dozal or Jessica Krug? Like, who's more believable? Let's say a Rachel Dozog or sounds like a joke. Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug walk into a building together. Who do you think is going to get racially profiled first? Who's blacker? Rachel. Yeah, because didn't Rachel go to Howard?

I don't know about all that. But Rachel was the president. Was she black at Howard or was she white at Howard? I'm almost sure she went to Howard. Was she black or white at Howard? I don't know. Can you get into Howard if you white? Don't they stop you at the door?

You can. There are a lot of white folks to go to Howard Law School. Is that true? See, that's the thing. At Southern, we have maybe like one white dude. I remember one time at Southern, there was a white dude in the band. And that was really confusing the people. It was like, okay, wait a second.

He was like, whoa. I don't, maybe he did. But there was white dude in the band. He probably was like a tub or something where he really didn't have to move that much. He was actually, he was big dude. He was actually kind of cool, though. Dude was kind of cool. But I mean, Morehouse had, didn't they have a white Valley Dictorian?

It was like a big deal. Yeah, I can see that. Did she really, no, I know she was president of a chapter of the NAACC. She went to Howard. She got her MFA from Howard University. But what was she? Oh, but her master's. She got her masters from Howard?

Masters from Howard. So she didn't go to undergraduate. That would have been a totally different experience. But I need to know if she was black at Howard. I need to understand. Because that's your answer right there. Who's more black? If she passed black at Howard, she went she more black.

Oh, Jesus Christ. Hold on. God damn it. God damn it. In 2002, Rachel Dolezal unsuccessfully sued Howard for discrimination based on race, pregnancy, family responsibilities, and gender as well as retaliation. Her lawsuit alleged that she was denied scholarship funds a teacher position and other opportunities because she was a white woman. No, Rachel now! Right now!

She all like, she also said, I'm going to get you back. I'm going to be black. Yeah. Unappropriate a race? What is this? Rachel was like and the suit was dismissed. So Rachel was like, if you can't beat them,

join them. Oh my God. She was the, man, Rachel was elected the president of the Spokane chapter of the NAA. I remember that.

That I knew. That's how you know. Her story is more interesting. I don't know. I got to think, like on this scale, I got to give it to, I got to give it to Rachel.

Yeah, you got to give it to Rachel. Yeah, I think Rachel. I think Jessica Krug, Jessica Krug like the, man, she's not, she's not legit, dog. Rach had cornrows. Yeah. She would really change up her hair. Jessica Krug off brand. I don't like her.

She liked the Sam's Club soda of racial impostors. She's not know, you ain't know, you know, because, like, my mom used to go to the store. And all I wanted was, all I wanted was a little fat, motherfucker with some fruit loops. That's all I wanted. All I wanted was some fruit loops, Rachel. And then my mom would go to the Sam's Club and come back with this crackhead

two can on the front of the box. You know what I'm saying? Two bags inside. Sam Club's always got two individual bags. They're trying to save. They're trying to save. Do you think we're stupid Sam's Club? They're trying to save two individual bags. I know that at least 20% of the fruit loops

is in that missing part of the bag that they come in. And it was it would be like, it would be something like, I don't know, citrus circles or something like that with a white ass. It had a bird. It had a bird. It was like a flamingo. It was a flamingo. Some kind of stupid bird that would be on there.

Like, oh, I'll be like, that's not too canned Sam. I was like, flamingo Freddie or something like that. Mom, come on. And my mother would look at me and my brother would be like, yo, we ain't got no fruit loops money. And so you go and what did you do? Pour yourself a bowl, grab a spoon. I pulled myself a bowl. I pulled myself a trough.

Like I would eat one bag. I was fat. The whole bag gone. All right. Jessica, you're out of here. Me and the real Rachel. Yeah. That's right.

The real Rachel, we're not fucking with that. I seriously hope, seriously in a real way that you find the healing that you need. But what you did was perverted. It was weird. And I don't know to say to you.

Yeah. Don't heal with us. Yeah. Go find that healing somewhere else. We'll find a healer. So, well, let's get out of here. Okay. Now, oh, it's time for mailback. It is time for mailback. We skipped mailback last week because I think we were too emotional to do mailback last week. Oh, I was like, we skipped it. It's time for mailback. So it's mailback Fridays, Jordan, whenever you are ready. Perfect. Okay. First question from Molly Abbott. I would love to hear the higher learning origin story. How did it come about?

What is the sound effects for? It's like not that compelling of a story. It's not an interesting story. Yeah. Like we want me to make up a story? That's better. I can make up a story off the top of my head. Okay.

So this is the story I was making. This is the story I'll make up. Okay. So this is the higher learning origin story as made up in the head off the cuff of Van Lathan. So a couple of years ago, I'd say maybe like right after the bachelor was announced. I reached out to Rachel because I was still working at TMZ I wanted to cover the Bachelorette

cover Rachel for a season I went to cover and make, you know, and at that time Rachel was like, look, I don't really talk to the low level motherfuckers at different media organizations. Right. She was like, it's either going to be Harvey or Charles. Correct.

You know what I mean? It's even going to be Harvey or Charles. Either I'm going to talk to one of the big dogs or I'm not going to talk to you. So me and Rachel really didn't really connect and there was some bad blood for a while. As a matter of fact, we went back and forth on Twitter.

You know what I mean? We couldn't like, we just couldn't, we didn't match. We didn't vibe. I feel like she dissed me and I felt the way about it. So, you know, fast forward, you know, I had heard through some people that Rachel was in L.A. So I figured I would go out there and sort of like, you know, kind of piece it up, whatever, whatever, say hello, kind of get to know or whatever. So she was staying at the Waldorf Astoria over in Beverly Hills, penthouse floor. You know, I love the story.

So I go there to say hello to her to say what's up. And there's a handler. It's like some kind of man, pool boy type guy brings me up to the top floor when Rachel has big glasses. All right. She's drinking some moat. She's in the corner. Brian is in a suit on the other side. He's making a million dollar deals.

He's got money in his hand. The whole thing is a big thing. So I go over there and I try to. I talked to her, and once again, it doesn't really go well. She, she, you know, Rachel puts hold on the phone and she goes, I heard you wanted to apologize to me. And I was like, no, I just wanted to talk. She goes, well, when you're ready to apologize, you can come back to the presidential suite and do this presidential shit. They're me and my baby over here doing, ain't that right baby.

And then Brian goes, fuck yeah. And I was embarrassed. So I turned around and walked out. Anyway, Rachel ends up falling out with the people at TMZ that she talks to. I never asked Harvey what was wrong. I just remember Harvey saying, hey, we had an all-staff meeting. Don't talk to Rachel Lindsay anymore. All right?

It's like, it was weird. I know what happened. Maybe you could talk about that later. So then I get fired from TMZ not too long after that for allegedly. Allegedly. And so Bill says he wants to do this podcast called Higher Learning. And he says he's got a really, really smart, intelligent black lady for me to do the podcast. with. So we go to this place.

We're all going to meet and have this lunch. Right? We're going to meet. We're going to have the lunch. We're going to talk about it. Well, when I get there, I see Rachel. She sees me. The first thing she does is picks up her salad fork and just charges at me.

What? This is getting out of control. I duck it. I move to the side. Then I kind of come back to kind of whatever. No, but Rachel's quick. Boom, boom. And Bill, his face goes ram. There's red. All he's like, what's going on?

You know, he hasn't seen this much black on black violence since New Jack City. He doesn't understand what's happening. Bill's mind is about to go crazy. And just as we're doing this out of nowhere, we see a blue vest. It's Doree McKesson. Dorey comes into the thing. And he looks at us both. And he goes, black people, figure out a way to come together and not be apart.

Doesn't say anything else. He keeps walking. I look at Rachel. I look at me. Rachel says, hey, let's make some magic. That's how you got the podcast. Jordan, what's the next question? Where is this going?

Where is this going? Love how you brought it together with Dorey. D'Rae, my man. D'Rea. Next question, Jordan. Okay, from Carrie Hawkins. She wants to know if Van is going to watch The Bachelor or Bachelorette and give us a recap every week.

Yes. Man, Bachelor people love you. They love to hear, because you know what? You're a different voice. You've never seen it before. You have no expectations. You don't know what you're getting into. So it's like a fresh voice in Bachelor Nation.

And they love it. Will you help me understand batchiness? Because I want to be a part of it. I would do my best. There's a lot of stuff about batch stuff that I don't get. I would love to. I'm into it now. I got to support my sister.

But there's a lot of batch stuff. I'm behind the curve on bat shit. So I don't really know. I think you shouldn't know too much, right? Because I don't want you to become jaded. What I would love to do for whoever asked this question is once, you know, we're able to be around each other again and we could be in crowds is for you to come to a live taping. I think you would your face. I think you would thoroughly enjoy that.

And that would give you the real batchy experience. Know what we should do? What? Oh my God. They should have us on a date. You know they do dates all the time, right? What's a date? Like, I can go on a date with, like, I can be like, like, what do you mean?

Tell me what is this. Like they do activities on certain dates. So, you know, like we're living in a different world. If everything's virtual, we should do a podcasting date where people come in and they guest host with us. But we get to quiz them, ask them questions and really grill them. You know what I mean? Like we could play, we could have, we could have, play games with them. It could be a lot of fun.

I have no clue what you're saying right now. I don't know. What do you mean? What do you mean? Like what do you explain? On the bachelor, on the bachelor, you have dates and they're usually activities. So sometimes like for me, we play basketball with Kareemathil Jabar. We should be a date where they have to be podcasters.

Yes, yes, we should be a date. The date is you're coming on higher learning with Van Lathena and Rachel Lindsay. They can, we can see their hosting skills. But also we just grilled them and just gave them a super hard time. Now, is this before or after Fantasy Suite? Fantasy suites is the last three. All this fun stuff happens before. It gets real serious when you get down to the top three.

Which you want to be doing, waiting in the fantasy suite? Do a play-by-play? Right when they come out. Like, right when they emerge from the family fantasy suite. I called it the family suite, which it could be. Right when they emerge from the fantasy suite, I want to be there. I want to be there. Like, yo, you don't wait at all of this time.

We got to know how the ones is, I'm saying? Was it like, if you put it down or not, you know, railroads, what you're doing? Because think about it. Think about if you do the whole thing in the fantasy suite, right? Especially for the ladies. Because for the men, it's less threshold. But for the ladies, let's say if you've been waiting the whole time

to get to the fantasy suite with one guy. And then when you get in there, he pops open a can of Vienna sausage on you. It's like it's a real toss-up. Because really in the regular world, you got more time to kind of feel that situation. I feel sorry for women because. Why? There's three people left. You can send them home.

If that's what you're going to measure it by and that's a deal breaker for you, but bye, they don't get a rose at the next rose ceremony. But what if you really liked him? Well, then if you really like him, then you get over. It's the motion in the ocean, right? Okay. I know a lot of women that jumped off of the boat. That's all I'm saying.

And they jumped off of the boat. They was like, no, I'm not swimming with this. Forget. All right, look, that was an interesting mailback. I might have took the story a little too far, but that's the way my mind works. They appreciate your imagination, I'm sure. My imagination. Okay.

I'll expect the ally of the week. Rach. Oh, I don't have one. I couldn't find one. You don't have one this week? Who's yours? Maybe I'll think of one. Jim Gaffigan, the comedian.

Oh, I've interviewed him before. He's funny. Yeah. not really about your professional career right now. It's about Gaffigan. Okay, didn't we waste five minutes with you telling your unimaginary story about how we met? Thank you.

Rachel, don't be smarter than me on the podcast and make, you know, don't, don't son me by making amazing points. Yes, you're right. Yes, Jim Gaffigan.

Jim Gaffigan this week with ham on Twitter against all the Trumpers. And let me see if I can bring the tweet up right here. It's great. Jim Gaffigan was down with us. Now, I've watched Jim Gaffigan. I had an old roommate. Shout out to Dan and that loved this show that came on TBS called My Boys. And Jim Gaffigan was on that show.

So I was aware of who Jim Gaffigan was. But I did not know that Jim Gaffigan was down, spoke out against Donald Trump, went on a whole rant. I thought that it was refreshing. And I always like to see an ally who is a fierce, ally. If you're going to be an ally guys, be one fierce. But don't just say I'm not racist. Say fuck racism. Don't say I'm not, I'm not sexist. Say, fuck misogyny.

You know, don't say that I'm like, I'm not transphobic. Say fuck transphobic assholes. Flect your muscles in this ally ship. And that's what Jim Gaffigand did. An aggressive rant, I loved it. Why can you find one this week? Was it was a bad week for white people? What's your chance to say? Well, I mean, yeah, it's always tough to find an unexpected ally of week. Is it not? Don't you always find it a little bit difficult to find an ally of the week?

Yeah, it's tougher than we thought. Yeah. It's interesting. I didn't have one, right? Because I wanted to be good. I don't want to just be like, oh, they did something small. I want them to do something great, something unexpected, which hints the title of the whole segment. I don't have one.

Nobody did anything unexpected. Hey, y'all step your game up. Please. And be allies. All right. That is enough. We are out of here. We will see you guys next week.

Thought warriors. You can take your thing in caps off, but never stop learning. I am Van Lathen. And I am Rachel Lindsay. Bye-bye.