Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Sydney Sweeney’s Jeans, Kamala’s '107 Days,' and the Aging of ‘Martin’ Jokes | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Episode Date: August 1, 2025

Rachel and Van start the show by running through some quick-hitters, including the internet’s reaction to Sydney Sweeney’s American Eagle commercial, Ari Lennox’s thoughts on Martin’s treatment of Pam, and Kamala Harris’s new book. Then, they talk about new updates to the Israel-Hamas conflict and some reactions to their Hulk Hogan segment last week. 00:00 - Welcome! 00:59 - Sydney Sweeney’s good “jeans” 29:57 - Ari Lennox’s thoughts on Martin and Pam 44:59 - Kamala Harris’s '107 Days' 1:12:28 - The Gaza-Israel Conflict 1:35:14 - Shannon Sharpe and Gilbert Arenas  1:45:32 - Reactions to our Hulk Hogan segment 2:08:38 - Thanks for watching! Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Donnie Beacham and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Carl Lernery is on. Is Ivan Lacey Jr.? And it's me, Rachel Lundon. Sidney Sweeney. Get right into the quick hitters. Fuck it.

Get right into the quick hitters. We were supposed to have guests on the show today. We were. But we're going to have them later. Who are the guests? The yestergays. The yestergays. Blakely Thornton and Justin Sylvester.

Blakely Thornton. Blakely. Blakely Thornton and Justin Sylvester. Did I tell you I ran into Justin Sylvester? I hear y'all are neighbor well, ish. Neighbors once removed. Ish.

Justin Sybester might have been doing a walk of shame. No. He's in a very happy relationship. Sidney Sweeney, look, we're going to get straight into the quick hitters. Got a lot of stuff. Nothing super important to talk about on the show today, but a lot of stuff to discuss. We're starting off with quick hitters.

Donnie, get us into what's going on with Sidney Sweeney. The playoffs are here. You can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severe. active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair Radio.com. Yeah, American Eagle. They're trying to sell you jeans,

but people are thinking, are they trying to sell those eugenics, too? Jeans are passed down from parents to offspring, often determining traits like hair color, personality, and even I color, my jeans are blue. So people got mad about this. They were very upset. Very upset about the jeans thing.

So there was a LinkedIn post. Ashley Sharapiro An executive at the brand revealed how early conversations went with Sidney Swinney. She said during a Zoom call with Sidney Swinney, we asked how far you want to push it without hesitation? She smirked and said, let's push it. I'm game.

Our response challenge accepted. I'm gay. The star power of Sweeney and the double meaning behind the campaign has really pissed people off. They're comparing it to the Calvin Klein's ad back in the 80s. Like what? she did the same thing.

Like, I'm in my Calvin's. Like nobody gets, the only thing that gets between me and my Calvin's is nothing or something like that. Or something, because you don't wear parents. And she was 15 and they were like, oh, it's so provocative for a young child. So for a child. So that's, it's like similar. Right.

So similar how? That one was about sex stuff and this one seems to be about some Nazi shit. Similar is in there's outrage. I'm not saying the outrage is based on the same thing. It's just a provocative commercial. When you saw it, were you upset? This is something that's very interesting to me in society. This is one of those things that I would have never been mad about it

until somebody told me that I needed to be mad about it. And that is an interesting thing in society, period. It used to be stuff that the stuff will be out there and you'll look at it and you see it and you go, oh, okay, that's it, it's over, cool, whatever. But that doesn't exist anymore. That exists. But now there's also a second part of this

to where people go, hey, just let you know you should care and that is an issue. That is a fundamentally different way to look at society like when something actually doesn't bother you when you first see it and then someone goes, this is the reason why something should bother you. And now people have to decide

whether or not they're bothered or not, I am not bothered by this at all. But when people list the reasons why they are bothered, I'm kind of like, ah, makes sense. Why are you not bothered? Because you don't wear American Eagle because you're not a big Sydney-Sweeney fan because you never would have even noticed the commercial.

Like, I'm curious this to, and then I'm curious on the other end because you're not a person who's like, if somebody tells you to be something or do something, you're going to do it. So obviously when somebody pointed it out, you were like, all right, this is something to be upset about.

Well, the reason why it didn't bother me at first is because I didn't take it the way she was saying. Oh, the jeans, jeans. No, I took it as jeans for her, meaning she's pretty. Okay. I didn't necessarily take it as genes, meaning I am white and Aryan and purer is in general snow and all of that stuff. And I didn't take it as being that. I took it as, hey, there is a combination of genetic factors. that make me a desirable person.

And this is the type of things that, the type of thing that she's playing on, that it's like jeans are jeans that you wear and also jeans are jeans that make you hot. So I just looked at it as that. And people were like, oh, these are all the things that she's saying. And when you look at it that way,

it's like, yeah, it's kind of fucked up. But I can't, I'm going to stop being mad about things that people tell me I should be mad about if it doesn't really bother me. But this one did. It didn't. I am not concerned with this act.

Oh, I'm only saying that because you said you didn't get mad until somebody told you to get mad. I didn't even, let me put that a better way. I didn't even think about this as a thing until somebody brought it up. I'm not going to say that other people can't go, hey, this is why we should pull this apart and get more into it.

But I don't really see the need to kind of get into this. It doesn't bother me at all. For me, when I saw it, I was like, huh. I knew what they were doing. I immediately thought of Brook Shields in the Calvin Klein Gene's ad, but I guess I understood it. I'm not going to say I agreed with it, but I knew what they were doing. I think that the goal was, who's talking about American Eagle? Who's talking about the last commercial they saw? Who's talking about their favorite prayer of jeans this way? I think the goal in advertising and marketing for some businesses, especially if you can afford it, right?

Because when I was doing the research, I was like, wow, I didn't realize how popular American Eagle is for a particular audience, right? Like teenagers, young, early 20s. So the goal was, I believe, to get people to talk about it, which they were successful. It's a business risk, right? But they achieve their goal. Here we are. We would never be talking about commercials or jeans or anything like that, and here we are talking about it, as does everybody on social media. For me, I got it. I thought it was wrong to play into, but for me, I guess I was more bothered because I'm noticing how people are shifting away from the way they advertised and the way they were companies were five years ago. Which was what? Well, they were more concerned about checking boxes or

diversity and inclusion. So it was important for consumers to see themselves represented in ads. It was important to see somebody who was showcasing, you know, you saw all the lines started to include people of plus sizes. They start to have lines of plus sizes. You would see people of different colors, of different ages, so people would say, hey, I see myself in this business, this ad, I want to now purchase it. I think that's gone away. And when I see an ad like this, that was willing to step into this space as we move from the Black Lives Matter era into the Trump MAGA era,

they felt empowered that they could take this risk and do this. They would have never done this five years ago. So to me, the problem is you're going, as companies get away with their DEI programs, as they start to, I guess, feel empowered by under the current administration, we're seeing people go back to the way they used to advertise, which is however they want. or however they see fit,

instead of feeling like they have to check certain boxes. That, to me, I feel like is more problematic. You're smirking at me. You don't care. No. I think... I don't see all of that in this ad, man. No, no, no.

I'm seeing the shift that they can do that. They couldn't have done this five years ago. It would have been even worse. They did do it. The reason why Sidney Sweeney is even on this ad is because... For the last five to six or whatever years that she's been in the spotlight, there has been a ravenous response to Sidney Sweeney and how she looks.

It's not her. But what I'm saying is there was never going to be a time with someone like Sidney was not going to have like a commercial and stuff. It's the message. My jeans are blue. Okay, look, first of all, I got to be honest with you guys. I just think I'm so, I'm bubbling over and care. There's so many things that care about.

I just don't, I didn't see the, I didn't see like Joseph Gerbils when I saw this. But look, I will say this. When, if you, if people care, I don't, I don't litigate other people's care. Fucking kick their ass if you want. Like, if you think it's, this is the deal. Kick their ass if you want. I just don't give a fuck. I also say this.

Live what you're talking about. We've talked about this before, you know, the, trying to check the, I don't really ever feel like they really truly committed to this. Oh, no, they didn't. That's very clear. Right. That's very clear with the bounce back. But Sidney Sweeney is like a, she's a big star.

So it's different. I am not outraged either. I'm really not. Right. But I understand why people are and I see the shift and I see where things are headed. I mean, there was an outcry about people were very upset. They didn't see themselves in certain brands. Then there was a response to that.

That became the trend. I think we're going, we're shifting in the trend. and I think the current environment, I think it's just worth pointing out that I see what's happening. And to your point, you're right. I never felt like they fully committed, which is why it was so easy to bounce back.

And I also think it points to American Eagle is for the generation behind us. I don't think the generation behind us is as, even though there's outrage on public, because it's like for teenagers, right? So you're stepping into Gen Alpha. I think that they're more concerned about an it girl, Sidney,

and wanting to like relate to her, not relate to her, but wanting to be like her, wanting to wear the jeans, wanting to look like her, and post that on social media. I think that's what that generation's for

and that's who they, and they know they can do that for that audience. That's what they were doing. A couple things I'll say before we leave. Number one, there are so many different conversations that I can't keep up with them. There's also a conversation right now

about the all-black Ralph Lauren stuff, right? Oh, yeah. Right. So, so. The Oaks Bluff. The Oaks Bluff Martha Vineyard's line that's promoting HBCUs. So that is all black, right?

It's black people, all black people. But there's a conversation inside of Black America that is not the right black people. That is not the proper black people. That is not a true reflection of how black people wear a polo. I got to be honest with you, I kind of see it. When somebody says, That's not the way we wear a polo. Shout out to my cousin Rara,

who would literally go, he'd take $150 and go to the store and get three things. It would be a polo hat, a polo shirt and some underwear. I'd be like, bro, you got to get more out of the $150, brother. He can't just, but he'd get the hat to match and all that stuff. That's right. That's a deal.

All. He got all that for $150 a polo? Yeah, you can get the polo. He gets the polo hat. Because polo is expensive. He get the polo hat, and then you get the polo shirt. It's probably like $75 each or maybe a shirt with $750. and then maybe the hat was 40

and then he gets some polo underwear and then he would polo it out three things, $150, $160, whatever. Shout out to Rura. But like even that, you put an ad out if the ad does not thread an incredibly specific needle

or if it is any way people believe that it's off code we're going to have a 15 hour 15 day conversation about that. Yeah, it is. It does show It just showcases, you know, black people on a monolith. So it shows another side of black culture, which now it sparked all this debate about black elites and Jack and Jill. And it's like, I see it everywhere.

But see, you, but you get the Oak Bluff stuff. Yeah, I was in Jack and Jill. Now, see? Now, think about- I understand it. Like, a lot of people. But think about what I'm talking, thinking about the deal is, I'm not from that. No, no, I get it.

And not only am I not from it. I hate it. I hate it. I understand. The Jack and Jill. black nigger shit. Why do you hate it? Because

I, number one, I have an intrinsic hate for hierarchy. Okay. And why do you think it's a hierarchy? I think it's important. No, no, no. No, no, no. No. Because I'm not going to I wrote an essay on it in my book. So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Because I talked about this.

I talked about elitism. Right. Eliteism. Right. Within Jack and Jill. But for the audience's purpose, because this is a topic right now, especially in our community. Everybody is talking about their Jack and Jill experience or being Jack and Jill adjacent or like you, despising what it is. So talk about why you feel it's a hierarchy and why you hate it.

I hate it because there is the one thing that is worse, not worse, the one thing that bothers me as much as white supremacy is black hierarchy because it erodes solid. And I believe that the saving grace of black people in America is solidarity. And when hierarchy affects solidarity, it is injected with all of these things that are distinct byproducts of white supremacy, capitalism, gangster capital. I'm better than you. I got more money than you. I got this. I got that.

I got all of this stuff. And I think that income. inequality, cultural, inequality amongst black people, I look at it as a specific and very direct sin. And I'm just being honest, I don't like a bunch.

I don't like niggas like that. And I never have. And so it's Well, you co-host with one of them. Well, I mean, look, the reality, like, we're different. When I say I don't like them, I don't, I'm not saying that I don't like them personally. I'm saying that that's not my type of shit. Well, I was,

I didn't have a choice. You know, I was, my parents put me in it. But I agree with you. Like I said, I wrote an essay about it. I don't like elitist. I don't know why can I say this word. What was an essay, by the way? I talked about my time in Jack and Jill.

And it was elitist inside there? I feel like what it stands for as a whole. Because the way, you know, like, it's like, when people would ask me, like, my wife friends at school, I'd be like, what's Jack and Jill? Because I'd have to go to a Jack and Jill event or something or team conference. They're like, what is it?

And I would always be like, it's the best way that I can describe it to y'all is like a country club for black folks. But I'm not even doing a disservice. I understand why my parents put me in it because, yeah, I grew up in a black neighborhood. I went to a black church. But the majority of the time that I was spending was at a predominantly white school. And so I understood the purpose of because what Jack and Jill, the reason I talked about it as elitist elite, why can I not say this word? You're doing fine to me. I hear you saying elitism.

Elitism. Elitism, yeah. Sounds like you're saying elitism. I know, but I keep giving it. You're saying elitist, you're doing fine. There was another word on the podcast, what time I could not get. I have problems with words sometimes.

Yeah. The reason I felt that way is because of how you get in. So there's that you have to be nominated, like, nominated in. A family has to like bring you in. Of course they like look at it. So I have an issue with that. No, no, no, no. I'm not disagree with you.

It's some paperback testing. But what they stand for of like the way that I, you know, the civic duty and the cultural engagement and community service and stuff like that as kids, because that's what we did, I understood why my parents wanted me to be in an organization like that with, and it's only black people. And that was the, so it was another thing to connect me to blackness. So I understood the purpose, but I would tell my parents, yeah, but they're all black kids. This is what I would talk to about.

I'm like, they're all black kids from other predominantly white schools in the same world as me, and I wanted something a little different. But, I mean, I could understand the pros and the comms, and I don't fault my parents for it. I just, for me, I never fit in it. I have a couple of friends from it. It just for me, my older sister had a totally different experience, and it's probably why she ended up going to Spelman. I just didn't have the same experience.

So I understand why people criticize and why they don't. But yeah, I see all sides of it. But I just don't like, I just don't like. I used to never tell people that I was in Jack and Jill because of the response that you got. As I get older, I can see the pros and cons of both, like I said. But you literally go, I don't like them. I don't.

And I am them. And you generalize because kids don't necessarily have the choice of whether they're in it or not. So to judge people because they grew up in it, you can't really say anything about that. Well, once again, I do, I will say this. I, when I say of them, it's interesting.

I have individual friends. There was this lady and her sister, not her sister, this lady that was friends with my mom. And her daughter took a liking to me. Ha-ha, daddy. And she wanted me to take her to her little coming out, Catillion, whatever. You know, he's...

Catillion's not jacking children. Well, whatever it is. it was, well, that was a continuing, but this was a jack and Jill. They wanted, she wanted me to accompany her to something says, hey, the son is, is, Crystal, your son's six foot four, he's tall, he says, he wants to she likes them, all that stuff like that. And I told him, I'm like, they're not going to like me when I get there. Like, they're not going to like me.

Because I'm going to fuck over him. I'm going to be there fucking over them and talking about how us Popeye's eating salt to earth niggers are. And I don't, like, there's a couple of people out there, And they know, like, I had my friend Charles. I had all of these different people. It was all cool. It was all gravy.

But I particularly have a problem with black people who other themselves from salt other earth. I totally agree with you. Like, it just, it bothers me. I agree with you. The polo thing didn't because it didn't bother me because I didn't know I was supposed to be bothered by them wearing polo. I didn't know that that was supposed to be bothered. But then people were like, when people brought the issue up, I was like, oh, well, maybe that is, maybe that is white.

But I don't think they othered themselves when they did the ad. I think that they were highlighting a certain sector of black culture. So to me, it was talking about how Inkwell Beach, how black families back in the day used to spend time up there because they couldn't necessarily go to other beaches, how there was this whole community within Martha's Vineyard that existed. That community wasn't necessarily keeping, or wasn't keeping black people out,

it was where black people went because they couldn't go other places. Now, from there, a lot of black people did go on to HBCUs, which is why there's this collaboration. But to me, it is highlighting a history, not othering within black community, black culture and communities.

So I don't understand why people were so upset with that, and I believe a portion of it is going to HBCUs. My point by saying that, though, is that all of these ads, by even bringing that up, is all of these ads, they put these ads out, and these ads are corporations trying to capture a specific audience for whatever reason. There is no such thing as altruism in corporate endeavor. It just doesn't exist.

So five years ago or four years ago or three years ago or six years ago, whenever the corporation was attempting to check boxes, they were doing it because they thought that it would expand their corporate reach. 100%. They were doing it because they thought that this is what people wanted. And the moment that they get the input

that this is not what people want, they are going to do what they think that people want. And so when it, to hold a corporation to us, should we need to push for representation in the corporate world, absolutely. We need to push for representation in the C-sweets, in the advertising, and all of that stuff.

But the reason why we need to push for it, in my opinion, is to get some return on what we're investing into the corporation. Right. But if we think that for one second, we're going to be able to appeal to the better nature of a soulless money-making entity, then we're just going to continue to discipline ourselves. Right. The bottom line is the dollar. And the bottom line in this case was the attention. Let me ask you this. Pretend you saw this ad and you cared.

The Sydney Swinney? Yes, the Sydney Swaney one. Would it matter to you that a year ago they released a limited edition denim collection with Cocoa Golf? Would it matter to you that this company, American Eagle, has an ongoing diversity, equity, and inclusion program that is geared toward its employees? And would it matter to you that, I guess, a couple of years?

days before they announced the Sydney Sweeney campaign that they named the latest recipients of its scholarship award for employees who are driving anti-racism, equality, and social justice initiatives. Would that matter to you?

Are you describing American Ewe or the nation of Islam? God damn, American Eagle woke as shit. Right? American Eagle trying to have it both ways. It was interesting to me. I was like, oh, I'm not giving them a pass. I just thought. I'm not giving them a pass.

Even that shit that they're doing is because they're doing it as good corporate... The only reason I bring it up is because everybody's like, oh my gosh, this, this and this. And then as I looked into it, I was like, okay, well, they actually still have their DEI program. I'm not giving them a pass. I'm just saying, I'm just doing some research

and just adding a little color to the topic. Look, I'm not going to tell you all y'all can't care. Care. But I'm saying that this didn't move... It didn't bother me. I'm not going to say that y'all can't care. Care. You know, we should do a whole episode on Jack and Jill and Black elitism and all of that. So that's actually a good topic.

Yeah, we should. Especially because we have two different perspectives. Yeah. When it comes to it. Like, you know. Like name another organization. So that's the only one I know. That's the only one that they had. By the way, I didn't even learn about it.

Let me tell you real quick about the Jack and Jill. I didn't even know what it was. Okay. And then when I learned about it, maybe like 14 or something. like that. I learned about it. I was like, why would they have that? The moment that I learned about it, the hate started. There was a Baton Roots chapter? I don't know if there was a Baton Rouge chapter or a Louisiana chapter or whatever or if people were talking about it just in the, just from a philosophical step. I was like, why would they have

that? Why would they have a club for the fancy niggas to go into and to like hang out and not? Do you consider sororities and fraternities that too? Because there's a process and you got to apply and you got to have letters and they pick and choose and I've seen it. I've seen the good and the bad part of it being on both sides of it being chosen and choosing. And I see what goes behind it. So this is why it's a bigger conversation because I'm curious what you think about. So I don't think that sororities are interiors. Interesting.

I'll tell you why. It's not much different. It's a lot different. Okay. to me. It's a lot different because of the sororities and the fraternities. To me, do you know how many people I know that are in sororities and in fraternities who are just like me have similar backgrounds or even come from more depressed and deprived places, right? Like you can get to, you can get to college on a football scholarship and end up deciding you want to play HQ. You can. So there's a, but here's

thing, your football player. There's another level to it. So like they might be, had that person not been an athlete who's deemed a certain person, a certain status on campus, they might not have chosen them. This is what I'm saying. But hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. Hold on. Just let me finish this real quick. Southern has open enrollment. Right? Or at least it did when I was going there. So anybody could go to Southern. The HBCU, particularly the one like Southern University, what they're doing is so important because they are taking people who, in my opinion, this is why the HBCU, particularly the HBCU is like Southern, they are taking people who would not have an opportunity at higher education and putting them in essentially a cultural incubator.

And that cultural incubator is a place where your professors care about you a little bit more, where you get more FaceTime with them, where you get an understanding of self, you get to be around different types of black people, you get to talk about the black experience, debate it, right? And over that time, you evolve. Yeah. You, I know people that have gone into college

as people that were curious about college and then ended up college students. And then once you become a college student, you get curious about college life and about things that are outside of it. And then those people, a lot of time, join sororities or fraternities. I know people that went to four different cap of informationals

before they got on the capill line. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But the thing was, is that whatever those organizations, and I don't know them, you would have to tell me, whatever those organizations choose from, I would assume that they're not trying to be elitist

in the way that they're trying to. choosing those people. People are people. Like, it's, it's... Because if they are, I know some cues that probably shouldn't have made it. Maybe so. And some alphas that probably shouldn't have made it because they're not elitist at all. The thing is, it's hard to be objective about it because every chapter is different. For example, you know, you go back to Jack and Jill, there was a North Dallas chapter.

There was a Dallas chapter. I was in the Dallas chapter. The Dallas chapter didn't happen. Not everybody went to private school. My best friend to this day, shout out to Mark Simmons, went to DeSoto and I, like, thank God he did because it just. it opened my world up to a totally different experience. What I'm saying is every chapter is different, just like every person within the chapter is different.

Same thing goes for sororities and fraternities. Exact same thing. But I think this points to why we should have a deeper conversation because, like, there's links, there's the boule. There's so many different things out there. How many poor people are into Jack and Jew? Oh, I don't, I could never answer that. But just like sororities and fraternities, you had to pay dues,

and I'll say that. this, even on my line where there were people who could not afford it, the ones who could, because you're a line, had to pay for them, had to step up and pay for them. Oh, yeah, I've heard about that before. I've heard about alumni. Yeah, like a sponsor. You get a hundred percent. But they would make a way.

But there are people in Jack and Jill who cannot pay their dues. I mean, like, it's a, it's a club. It's a club. So we can move on. We was not quick here at all. If you're telling me that. there's elitism in the sorority and fraternities. I guess I understand it.

I didn't look at it as elitism. I looked at it as exclusivity. And those two things aren't necessarily different. But they can be the same. They can be the same. But like exclusivity means that you want somebody that might be specific to what it is that you're looking for. You don't let everybody in.

Elitism is you only let the rich people in. Those two things, if you have a club and you want a specific type of person in your club, that's fine. I have no problem with that. But if you have a club and you only want rich, well-to-do people in your club, to me, that's social engineering.

And I don't like that type of shit. All right. Anyway. Very interesting. It's super interesting. Jack and Jill. Especially. We should have thought of this a long time ago

because, and we used to, I feel like at the beginning of the podcast, because we just came up in different ways. You know, we used to prank called country clubs when we're, we just... Prank call used to be such a fun thing. We just didn't like country clubs. And me and Ryan and them,

Ryan even went to you high with his little and leaders. I was never in a country club. But we used to prank call country clubs and just fuck with country clubs. Just fuck with the people. You know, fuck with them. Anyway. This feels like a good transition. The Ari Lenoxi said, shut the fuck you guys.

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Sweetgreen.com. she did a radio interview recently and she was talking about Martin and how some of the jokes geared towards Pam hit a nerve with her growing up as a dark-skinned black girl. I think that pissed me off about Martin was how much you would go on, Pam. And this is coming from a girl who love, like, I love me a good, like, joking-ass movie. And even when the joking movie, it's like, damn, like, that was fucked up. Like, you know, I'm not like too woke or something is what I'm trying to say. Like, I'm honestly not, I'm problematic.

I'm pretty problematic low key. But like, but my point is, is that there are some things where I draw the line and it just bother me or like, I don't know. It's like Pam was so fucking beautiful and so fine. And I just feel like growing up as a chocolate girl. Like, I don't even know if I was able to understand the greatness of Pam because of the light that I feel like I was being fed. Rachel, I'm interested to see what you feel about this. Why? Because it's a black lady thing.

Yeah, I mean, so as we know, there were so many things I was not allowed to watch when I was younger. So when Martin came on in real time, I wasn't watching it. I would have been like seven to 12. So I watched it later on So I feel like I had it even different I had a different perspective Because I was in college watching Martin Right

And they didn't have that on in Jack and Jill Well I wouldn't have watched it With that Martin on? We didn't watch TV That's not what we did We were out doing community service Or like lock-ins or like lock-ins Or teen conferences

So it was basically Fuck pads that you guys I know what happens If those lock-ins Teenage Lock-Lock-ins I love that you assume Jack and Jill. Can I finish?

Can I finish? There's a lot of hatred towards us Jack and Jillers. Don't like it. But no, but by the time I watched it, I feel like I had a totally different perspective because I immediately felt uncomfortable with the jokes that Martin was spewing out at Pam, right? Because they played into negative stereotypes

that I felt like white people have about black women. He would call her a beast. He would compare her. her to a monkey, dogs. What else did he say? He would talk about her hair

called her Beedybee. Call her Beedybee. And I just remember thinking, I guess I'm what you call neutral. So we're talking about this on the phone. You're a neutral. Light skin, dark skin, and neutral. The light skin is happening in revenge right now, yeah.

But I just remember thinking, man, if I look like Pam, I just general is a black one. I don't want to see a black one put down anyway, but like an Ari saying she saw herself in Pam and then she saw how Pan was discussed. Only by Martin though on the show. So I understand exactly what Ari is saying,

but I will say a little pushback. Outside of Martin, Pam was adored by men on the show. There were men that were... She was fine as shit. That's what I'm saying. I'm pushing back a little bit on what Ari was saying because she said she would watch it and get sad. if you only focused on Martin, which I'd still hold true that I think he was wrong and how he did it.

I didn't find it funny. It wasn't like Kyle and Maxine on Living Single. They were funny and they didn't play in the weeds like this. But if you look at Pam in relation to all the other men on the show, men were always coming for her, always telling her how fine she was. She was always dating somebody. And then we saw the relationship with her and Tommy on the show. So there was, if you step back, you really saw Pam adored on the show. the show. And I think I would feel a certain way even more so if Pam was getting it from everybody on the show, but she wasn't. And then for the people who say, well, Gina got it too. He chose Gina. So at the end of the day, if he's talking about calling Gina Leibright or talking about her head, he still chose to be with her. So he looked at Gina a certain way from Pam.

But I do understand what she said, because I felt uncomfortable watching Martin. Martin talk about Pam. I mean, it's how she feels. So. You can't tell her how she's supposed to feel. If she looked at it and it made her uncomfortable, then it made her uncomfortable. Once again, just like the topic before, if you look at something and it makes you uncomfortable, you are completely within your rights to feel like this is fucked up.

If we make it a bigger societal issue or an issue of how black women or darker skin black women are treated, then we have to take a step back and look at all of the different angles and say, were there men on the show that loved Pam? Yeah. Was Pam always the one looking for a man that could never find one? Was Pam positioned as something less than Gina or less than other women?

Did Pam get a chance to get back at Martin? Or did she make fun of Martin? Did she give as well as she got? Which anyone who watched the show would say yes. It is one thing to say for any one person to say, I felt this way because this portrayal of this character had a very, had a real impact on me.

This is the way I felt. There are plenty of things that I look at it and I go, it's fat shit. It'll be fat shit. Well, I'll be looking at somebody that'll be, be fat and they'll be treated a certain way and I'll be like, God damn, man. This is, as

I haven't been the fat nigga of the crew before, like I understand how this person must feel. But if you want to make that a larger societal critique of something, then that's when all of the different angles of this show are product

are going to be very fairly brought up. And that doesn't mean that it absolves the criticism or absolves the show. from criticism, it just means that that right away becomes a larger conversation. Because there would be a way to where Pam, because she is a black woman, would have been a completely undesirable, powerless character on that show. And there's no way to watch Martin and say that that was the case.

Well, no, you're right. I mean, she and Gina had great jobs. You saw them doing presentations, running meetings. And she used to be on Martin head. Yes. A lot of time she was on Martin head. So, like, there's no way to objectively look at it and be like that character was, no, I'm not saying an object.

You can look at it that way. But if we're going to look at it that way, we'd have to consider a whole bunch of things other than just the way it made one person feel. Right, which is what I was doing. But I will say it is easy to talk about it objectively now as adults who can make that distinction. But as a kid watching it and other kids are watching it, Ari looks at Pam. and she sees her Tashina Arnold and sees herself.

And then so do maybe the kids at school are like, oh, Ari looks like Pam. Well, then what are they going to do? They're going to take those same jokes and make fun of Ari like Martin makes fun of Pam. So, no, no, no. I'm just giving life to it. I think it's easy. You know, here on the show, we have a bigger conversation about it.

But to Ari's point, at that age, we weren't making that kind of distinction. Well, I mean, there was, but at that age, to be honest with you, we weren't making any distinctions. We were just laughing or not laughing. Right. And then taking it and using it, applying it to a lie- Whatever. Like you laugh at Tommy because he don't have the job.

You laugh at everybody had their own little thing. It's a black show. So the jokes that come out, you know something else that kind of that interests me about this? Shows like Martin and shows like living. single, they assume a cultural safety that we do not and cannot assume anymore.

So a lot of times, if you are in amongst a group of black people, a lot of black people around, it's your family, it's your friends, it's people you know and love, or just have some type of connection to. Jokes like that fly. 100%. Jokes like that come out. That's why we have thick skin. And so when you're watching it on TV, you understand the jokes because these people are all together. You get kind of the dynamic that exists. But, man, I'll go back to it.

Since we have been told about the specific dangers of every type of speech, of every type of action, of every type of discussion, we have gone back and been like, maybe we weren't so safe. Maybe there was never that type of safety. Maybe it doesn't exist. Maybe it's a figment of our imagination. We were just hardened to it. Or we were just used to it. Or maybe we were used to it or maybe there was a time that we just let some shit go to where it was like, you give me your shit.

I give me, I don't know how to really. I think we have bigger issues. We still do. But what I'm saying is all of the stuff. there was so much stuff back in the day, right, that just assumed that we were okay when we were together. And I think that we are starting to litigate that. We're starting to go, well, maybe we're not.

Maybe we never were. We're certainly not today. Maybe there were always these terrible, ridiculous bad actors. And Martin had an entrenched hatred for black women. And that's why he was taking it out on Pam, because women feel like now, black women feel like now that there's an entrenched

psychological underlying hatred for them that black men have displayed over the last and it's actually presenting itself as jokes when there's something under there. So we're now going back and asking all of these questions

when that's definitely a possibility. But then there was also a possibility. but then there was also a possibility that they was just playing with each other? Well, and can I just add to that? Yes, can I add to that? He said Pam had Beady Beads.

We never saw a Beedie Beat. You know what I mean? That's what he called her. He said Pam was a beast and all that. Pam was beautiful. Like, we never saw all those things. And again, I'm repeating myself. But he was short with big ears and the host

and all of the shit. Yes. Yes. And, but what I'll say to that is, the things that he was getting made fun of can be spread across to men in general, right? They're short men. There are men with big ears. He was making specific attacks against her that are only particular to black women or stereotypes specifically towards black women.

Like nappy hair. Yes. Black men don't have nappy hair. Okay. I mean, I don't like the word nappy hair. But yes, I understand what you're saying. But my point is it was it was based on race, I guess is my point. It was particular to what she looked like as a black woman.

Really? You really feel that way? I feel like he played into stereotypes of a black woman. I'm not saying he didn't play into stereotypes. I don't think he hated her. Because to me, again, I'll stand with what I said before. Outside of their joking, Pam was the shit. There was nothing.

I didn't feel that way watching her. I understood it. I didn't feel that way because I was like, wow, these are two, women with, like, when Martin didn't have a job, Gina had a job. You know, like, Gina was keeping them afloat. Gina had the money. Gina, so I saw that kind of stuff. But again, I was watching it as a college student. So I don't, I never looked at it like, and I still don't. Oh, this is a part of black men hating black women. I still don't look at it like that. It was just their particular relationship, which Tashina Arnold has been confronted about this and has spoken about it and pretty

much said something similar, because she was, she said to your point, this is how my character was originally written for a heavyset woman. And I came in, killed the audition. They saw how Martin and I joked off camera, and they wrote it into the script. They saw that she was witty, that she could handle her own, give it back, and they wrote that into her character. They let her be herself. So to your point, what was off camera came on the screen.

Right. The fact that they felt safe with each other. Once again, you can look at it, feel however you want to feel, if we're going to have a broader societal conversation, then we would have to have a broader criticism and pull it apart. That doesn't mean that's going to fall apart. I mean, if you look at that and you feel like we

shouldn't be talking about sisters like that, like, I wouldn't make those types of jokes about sisters like that. You couldn't do, you probably, you can't make a Martin now. But I would talk about my sister like that. Yeah, your sister posted something that she said the text message. What did I say? What did I say?

I'm paraphrasing, but she checked on you because of the tsunami warning. And you, You said, you cunts. I just said, oh, hold on, let me see. She posted on social. I meant to write on it and I forgot. Hold on.

Let me see. Hold on for a second. It said, I just put cunts. Hey, will y'all be affected by the tsunami? My response was cunts. I mean, my sister. And she said, and she, oh, wait, she took it down. Did she take it down?

Oh, no, she did. She said bye, laughing my ass on. Because she gets, you do this. She asked me questions all the time. Like she put something that mom put on TikTok, right? My mother posted... Your mom was on TikTok? My mother posted some TikTok with a shadow of a penis on there.

My mom likes to tell some type of jokes I like to tell. And then Ebony is trying to snitch on mom. Mm-hmm. And she goes, your mother posted this on TikTok. And I was like, yes, of course she loves to fuck. And then Ebony goes by. So I like this. Me and Ebony have this type of relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if we were talking about... You do that. You do that to us. Pam was beautiful. I can understand where Ari is coming from. But it's just interesting

for us to be where we are. Speaking of black women and what they're going to do and where they're going to go, we got some news from Kamala Harris, Donnie. Yeah, she announced yesterday that she's not going to run for governor of California in 2026.

But she announced this morning that she does, plan to release a book. Just over a year ago, I launched my campaign for President of the United States. 107 days traveling the country, fighting for our future, the shortest presidential campaign in modern history. It was intense, high stakes, and deeply personal for me and for so many of you. Since leaving office, I've spent a lot of time reflecting on those days, talking with my team,

my family, my friends, and pulling my thoughts together. In essence, writing a journal that is this book 107 days. With candor and reflection, I've written a behind-the-scenes account of that journey. I believe there's value in sharing what I saw, what I learned, and what I know it will take to move forward. In writing this book, one truth kept coming back to me. Sometimes, the fight takes a while. But I remain full of hope and I remain clear-eyed. I will never stop fighting

to make our country reflect the very best of its ideals always on behalf of the people. When the announcement came that she wasn't running for governor, which I think we all know makes sense, that's a step backwards. She can't go from a national campaign

to a regional one. I don't know that that's true. I think it's a step backwards. But you said, immediately, oh, she's going to run in 2028. Yeah. Now she's announced the book that is based on her 107 days of campaigning. You still think that she's on the trail for 2028?

I don't know. I think this, if she is, this book is a mistake. Because when I think, first off, I don't think she should run. And why? Well, now that she's, the book goes into it. one of, I think, the biggest points. The Democratic Party is trying to distance itself from that

2024 election. Kamala Harris is tied directly to it. Whether that's her fault or not because Joe Biden decided to stay and run and then had to pull out, she is tied to the 2024 election in everything that went wrong. Republicans,

and she hasn't distanced herself far enough away from that. We haven't seen her, really. She hasn't done anything. Republicans have the blueprint on how to campaign against They know exactly what to do. It won't be hard and she hasn't done enough to separate. Now she's coming out with the book 107 days, which is literally going to have us relitigating, discussing everything that happened right, wrong, in between and regarding that election.

So it once again ties her back to 2024 when I feel like the party is trying so hard. They still haven't figured out how to do it, but it's trying so hard to separate themselves from the disaster of 2024. And I don't think you can do that and have her tied to a 2028 campaign. Also, like, I just, the people that she was looking at for vice president are the people who are rumored to be putting their name in the hat for 2028. I just think that, unfortunately, the timing was wrong for her in 2024

and the odds were so against her that I think it's taken away any future opportunity. that she has. She would have to do a hell of a campaign to truly, unless this book is like... The jumping off point for that. Yeah, I mean, she has to totally shit on

what happened before. I don't see, I can't see it happening. Two things. One, I don't think that there's a purpose to write the book unless the book would be critical of... Changing the perception? Well, critical of the way that the

24 election shook out. And when I mean critical, I mean a book talking about who didn't support her, a book talking about some of the people that behind the scenes were probably working to depower her. A real look into what actually happened. I think that there's a way to look at this

that says perhaps the book is a pallet cleanser, not unnecessarily why things went wrong type of situation, but look what I was up against type of situation. This is what happened then. This is when it should have happened. This is how it could have happened. This is when I knew I was going to be running. These are the people who were on my side.

These were the people who weren't on my side. And more importantly with the book, this is how I could have won. If, in fact, I was going to win, this is how I could have won. This is why I picked Tim Walls and not Josh Shapiro. This is why these things that people

had big questions about. This is why I answered that question the way I answered it on the view and this is the way I should have answered it and all of that. It could be almost a pallet cleanser to maybe get her back to zero. I do think that I don't agree

that it would have been a step backwards for her to be the governor of California. I don't think that at all. As a matter of fact, I think it would have been a massive step forward for her in her career. because she would have been the executive of one of the largest economies in the world. She would have been, she's the governor of California, right? If she would have, first of all, she doesn't have to run for governor of California.

She doesn't want to run for governor of California. She don't want to do it, she wants to do it, right? She doesn't have to do anything. She wants to write a book, she'll write a book, do whatever she wants. However, I could make an argument that being the government of California actually has a lot more utility and is a more important position in American politics than being a vice president. Like, to me, her actually going to be the governor and setting California up on a run, addressing some of the problems that exist here in California,

problems that she knows very well, and positioning herself as an executive of a state, the leader of that state for X amount of years puts her in a position to then be president if she wants to, or to continue to help people and make changes in California.

Not that California is in a place a lot of people say that it's in. But I think that would have been something that I would have been super stoked for her to do. And I don't think it would have been a step back in any way she performed. I don't know whether or not she's going to want for president.

I have no idea. I don't think that the Democrats want her to run for president. I don't think that anyone wants to see her on the ticket in 2028. I think that what the Democrats want in 20208 is the whitest

white guy that they can pass to the left as possible. To the right. No, no, to the left. Oh, pass to the left. Yeah, I think they want... I think the right is cool with white people. I think they want the whitest white guy

that the left will accept. and whoever is able to prove themselves to be that will probably be the nominee for the Democrats in 2028 or maybe Westmore can sneak in there or somebody like that but they want someone that can be white and not offend the sensibilities of the left and be acceptable to a moderate, independent, or...

That's the white part. But let me just say this. Two things. I do not agree with you about her being governor. And I understand the power that she would have as governor of a state like California. But we have seen her be, and I know these are different positions, but she has been the attorney general. She has been a senator for California.

She was an attorney general of California. That's what I said. She's been an attorney. I know. But being the governor of California is a big of a deal. I said there are different positions. Right. But I'm saying her holding another position different,

more power, I do not believe, changes it. So she was the attorney general, she was senator for California, and she was the vice president of the United States. People feel a certain way about Kamala like they do. Right. Despite the power that you have as the governor of California and its economy, there is still a perception that exists. And the perception is that's a step backwards. Even it is. The perception is that it is a step backwards. And I think that that would be something that people would use against her, should she campaign for, well, it wouldn't be 2028. It would be like 2032 or 36 or something like that. That's one point.

And the second point I would say is if she is planning on running in 2028 and she does what you said she'll do or she may do in her book, in order to do that, she just talk bad about the party. And that in the long run will not help her for 2020. Well, I'll tell you one thing, two things. Number one, being a governor is certainly a step back from being the president. But she's never been that. She's run twice.

Right. It's just looks. It's the perception. To me, it doesn't look bad at all, but I take your point. Secondly, if this book comes out and it is a puff piece or a glowy flowery retelling of that campaign that in no way criticizes or gives us any, it's, it's, the end of Kamala Harris. Because people are not going to accept with everything that

went on and with the stakes that we are currently living under and the dysfunction that we see, people want to know what the fuck happened. And they want to know from her. A lot of people were kind of disappointed that she was writing a book. I am

overjoyed to read this book. I want to know from her what happened. And If this book is, if it reaffirms the Democratic Party's status quo, I'll be more disappointing to her than I've ever been before my life. I hope it doesn't. I'm afraid.

I'm afraid that it's going to tow the line just because we've seen Kamala Harris when she ran for president before. And even as vice president, we've seen her and then running again. We've seen her flip-flop a little bit. And I'm interested, she's going to have to take a stance. And I'm curious and I'm scared of which one she is going to take. But what I do hope is that she decides to do more, not campaigns, what I hope she is. You don't think Kamala Harris, that was an interesting criticism that was baked in there.

The flip-flop? Yeah. Think she's a flip-flopper that doesn't take a stance? I think that at the end-the-in-the-in, she took a stance with the status quo. And I think that's very evident by the statement that she made on the view, that she wouldn't do anything different. You're going to have to do something different in this book. But we did when she first campaign, that was a big. biggest thing. She had a big moment in the debate.

And then people were calling her out on, you said this. I think you said this. She's going to have to take a stance with the book. And what I do hope is that you decide to do more podcast and I hope you come here. Because that was another criticism of her. I hope we will read the book. Come here. Discuss the book. Talk about it. She'll have to because I believe that she'll also be campaigning for the midterms, for 2026 midterms. So come on. Let me, let's be honest about something real quick.

Kamala Harris is not coming on higher learning. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why Kamala Harris is not going to choose to have a negative attitude about this. I'm going to be hopeful. It's not negative or a positive. It doesn't. Why isn't she coming? My life don't change whether or not she come on a podcast or not.

I'll tell you why. There's two reasons. One, and I have to say this, this podcast from an audience standpoint, is not big enough to compel her to come on here. So when, and this is kind of an interesting thing with, with politicians and people who do these different spots because we talk about this.

Now, I want to make sure that I position this in a way to where it doesn't seem like I'm crying over this because I'm actually not. The reason why politicians go on the platforms that they go on, and talk to the people that they talk to is very simply because those are the biggest platform. Sure. That's the reason why.

It goes back to the corporations thing. It goes back to what I was talking about. They're not going on there necessarily because they are in love with the platforms or in love with the people. They're going on there because those are the biggest platforms. Now, it also happens that some of the biggest platforms are the platforms that are also the least critical.

They're the platforms that are hangs. They're the platforms that you go there. They're very good podcasters and very good at what they do, right? They're very funny. They're very bro-y. They're normally led by straight white males, which is a huge, large demographic. Or you have caller daddy,

which is a lady, a white lady with a huge large demographic. they go on there because these places have massive audiences. And they have massive audiences because they're really good at what they do. They're funny or whatever. But also because they don't really put any tension into their audiences a lot. They don't really force their audiences to make decisions about what kind of society they want to see or what kind of people that they are. Because that's not fun to talk about for two hours or an hour every single day.

It's not fun to talk about that. It's not fun for someone to tell you every day. that's wrong with the world every couple of days. Now, there are other, there are other places that do do that, that are pretty popular. I know people saw Slokkin when she went to talk to Crystal and Saga, right? When they asked her why, Crystal asked her straight up, Crystal Ball, if you haven't seen this interview, it's amazing. Elisa Slokin went on, breaking points, talked to Crystal and Saga, and Crystal

fucked her up, right? but when she asked her, why did you want to come on here? She was like, well, one thing is you have a very healthy audience, right? You have a very healthy audience. And so because you have that audience, to me, I want to define myself to the largest amount of people possible. So I come here and I sit down and I talk to y'all, right? Knowing that it's going to be a contentious interview, it's still worth it. Honestly, it's not worth for Kamala Harris to come on here.

and have me ask her questions about that shit when it's not going to... Okay, here's my pushback on that. It's not going to... It's not worth it. So I know you know that if she came on here, we could do a very good and thorough interview assuming there were no restrictions, right?

If we were allowed to ask anything that we wanted to, I think that we would have a very good interview. It doesn't mean that the interview won't do well and it won't get eyes on it. I understand the initial reason to want to come on to have to be have the most eyes on you, but also having, I think, so I'll compare it to call her daddy. There's a lot of criticism when she went to call her daddy because her audience is not a political audience. Her audience doesn't want to see that. Her audience wants to be

entertained. It's pop culture. It's what's gone viral. It's a, it's a hot moment that's that's happening in that type of industry with entertainment. Also, that's what the type of interview that Alex Cooper is used to doing. Alex Cooperan used to doing a political interview. It was a bad interview. And it got a lot of criticism. Her audience was very critical about it. So you had a large group of people be very critical about this.

It did not do Kamala Harris any favors. And so what I would challenge her to do, should she want to campaign for the 2026 midterms, should she want to promote her book, should she decide in 2028, is go where you can have the best conversation and trust that that conversation will travel because you, whether the questions that were asked, the way she was challenged,

it's like we've done interviews before as a small podcast with a smaller audience that have gone viral. We have a very healthy audience. By the way, just like you guys know, very successful podcast. And I know like, yes, we could be bigger and I know how you feel about that. But I would push back against that and say, because I trust what we could bring to the table, I think a lot of eyes would see it. Look. And that's and that's what, that's all I'm saying.

Not everybody just because you have an audience. is well equipped to have that type of interview. Actually, you just saw the Nelkeboy sit down with Benjamin Nanyahu. It's obvious they were in over their heads, right? So it, but what I'm, what I'm saying is this. This space and the way you go about doing this is really interesting. Because you can do some things, like our audience holds us to a very high standard, which it should, right?

Mm-hmm. It would almost be better if the podcast was dumber. because if the podcast was dumber and more accessible, you could then actually have moments in the podcast where you could make large sweeping types of changes by the moments that you had with people who really matter and conversations that really matter. It almost would be better if that was the thing.

And not even dumber because we're not actually that smart. It would almost be better if the podcast was less serious. Forget about Dumber. It would be almost, it would almost be better if it was less serious because people, they, oh my God, like Kamala Harris is on fucking Joe Rogan or Kamala Harris is on fucking Theo Vaughn.

Like, what's going to happen? It's interesting to see Theo Vaughan sit down to, with Bernie Sanders. It's a win-win for everybody. Theo Vaughn is going to look like someone that cares enough to have Bernie Sanders on their show. And Bernie Sanders is going to look like one of the guys because he's sitting down talking to Theo Vaughn.

It's the way that it works. For these people that are on these shows, and this is a show that has a very healthy audience, guys, do not get me wrong. I'm not saying that we don't have a healthy audience. It's a very healthy, it's a very successful show, and it has been, and it's only growing. But I was saying, for these people to come talk to us,

they would have to be curious, and they would have to be interested in having a conversation, with people that are trying to learn more about them and having a conversation with people that are trying to make sense of things that they said and do. I like Kamala Harris.

Like her a lot. Like her a lot. Supported her. But there are questions that I have about her campaign, about past things that she says, and about that. For her to come down here and step into like a conversation that might not be so flattering,

it would have to be worth it to her. And for us, we have to decide our audience has to decide we have to decide as a group as a community of higher learning whether or how we get to the point where we can compel people to come sit down and talk to us where it's worth it to them to have a conversation that might be a little uncomfortable for them

or it might be less flowery and full of flattery than other places because they're willing to have some of those uncomfortable conversations you're saying though when they have bigger platforms They're not. Well, they're willing to, they're willing to have some of those uncomfortable conversations. Like the Crystal and Saga example was she knew that was going to be uncomfortable,

but it was worth it to her for the audience. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Right. Some of these other places, you might expect that it would be a little uncomfortable, but for the most part, you know that it's not going to be because they aren't podcasts that are specifically about politics, world issues. and even if they are,

their agenda is more aligned with a person that they're like interviewing. So it's like, if Trump talks to Aiden Ross, like, how could he lose? Yeah. Like, if Trump talks to flagrant, like, how could he lose?

They voted for him, right? Like, how could he lose? Like, but for us, you could go to a medium-sized platform and get embarrassed or have a moment where I like going in an emotional rant

and lose it and all then what was the you did it didn't do anything for you fuck out of here Larry fuck out of here Larry did nothing for Larry that's why nobody will come back fuck out of here Larry

did nothing for Larry right Emmanuel Acho I lost it can you ask to be screaming at Cobbler Harris said it was your campaign but by the way it was your campaign by the way Larry

forced your hand. He did, though. Because we did that to me. Can we talk about Larry real quick? Y'all, we, Rachel Lindsay and Van Lathen, we said we're not going to fight with Larry Elder. We talked about it before.

We exchanged, like, themes, issues we were going to talk about. We were together. We were in sync. We said we're not going to fight with Larry Elder. Larry would not take no for an answer in terms of a fight. Larry wanted it so bad. He wanted us to get to where we got so bad.

And we gave it to him. And we gave it to him. We told, we was like, hey, man, look, this is not we go, this is the one. I'm saying, look. So there are two moments in the past, and the history of the podcast that I actually regret. Two moments.

I regret our Michael Rapport interview. I was going to say, is that one? Yeah. I regret it because I had what I felt like were salient points to make to him about how he was covering things and how he was going. Like little did I know that he was full of shit the whole fucking time. You can see now the guy's like yeah, you know, whatever. He's going full Trump support. So little did I

know that I wanted to talk to him and actually make inroads with him to be like, look, this is why I think what you're doing is harmful. And I jumped out of my body and it ended up becoming something that was very difficult to listen to and something that I felt like I need to go back and actually apologize for. Did you? I think I did.

I'm pretty sure I did. Because I don't want to be in a reactive situation where it's not good for the audience and it's not good for anyone else, right? And then the Emmanuel Acho thing is like, you don't want to invite somebody on your platform and they fucking diss them to their face. It's just, I know, the only way I know how to talk to people

is like just straight up open and honest to your face. And so you probably don't want to get somebody on the platform and be like, you're an emotional butler for white people. It's probably not what you want to do. It also was the whole setup was just wrong. Like I think you might not have even gotten to that point emotionally had he understood what he was walking into. Right.

So what I'm saying is what you then get is a reputation for being a podcast that people are going to come on. and you're going to keep people in the nuts. Do you think that's the reputation? Not necessarily. I think we have a reputation of barely being competent interviewers. Do you think that? Yeah. You don't think we do good interviews?

I think we do. But I don't think that I think we do. I think we have two different interviewing styles as well. Well, we do. But, okay, enough criticizing our learning. Why? Who says we have incompetent? Incompetent is a strong word.

And you don't like the person we interviewed or the subject matter. Fine. But to say incompetent, that's rough. So by the way, this podcast to me, we've kind of gotten into a little whole existential thing. But this podcast to me is like family situation. So it's not about perfection. It's about intent and execution to me.

So. Correct. Which is why I'm like incompetent. People sometimes. But all I'm saying is this. Your friends tell you that. Your friends tell you you did an incompetent interview. There are people that go van.

Or we did it one? There are people that go van. This is what you guys need to do. And we've talked about it to drill down on some of the things that we're doing. All I'm saying is we're scaling up. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, it's all fine. It's all great. I say this, though.

Uh, I would love to have a conversation with, uh, Kamala Harris. We have a lot of great people that are coming up on the show. But it is very important to grow the ecosystem of black-led, left-leaning podcasts so that these people have to talk to us. There are people out there, big names, Clay Kane. I went on Clay Kane's show after I said what I said about Kamala, and I took a fucking beating from the people on the road. radio. We have not yet had the opportunity to have Clay on this show. I keep getting in touch with them and then it kind of falls off. I would love to have him. But it's a great show. I love listening

to him. Great. There are great voices out there. Clay, Recy, Roland Martin, there's people out there that you can listen to and go make sure these people have as big of an audience as possible so people have to talk to them. So people have to talk to them. Before the Pod Save America brothers go off, the pod bros, they go off, they go, hey, let you know we're in a battle for minds. Eco system. Fucking, you got all these other people and they're doing all of this stuff.

And the algorithm treats them differently. So like and subscribe. You never seen them? You never watch them? I do watch Potsayvary. And then when after it goes, like before the YouTube clip goes off, they give their audience a breakdown

of why they need to do what the fuck they need to do. Yeah, anyway. Donnie, next fucking, oh, we got to talk about Gilbert Arenas, man. Do we? You don't want to talk about them? Okay, so we got... Oh, you know what?

It's not much to say. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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because that really, people were really excited that we did that. There were very, people, and then when I say that, no, I got tons and tons of calls asking, what am I doing? And I want to let you know that if you call me and told me not to talk about that, I'm really about to tell you how to go fuck yourselves.

Like, get off my phone. They called you and told you not to talk about it. or they they critiqued what you had to say. Because there's a huge difference between being like, what the hell are you doing? Don't you fix your mouth to talk about that again. Don't talk about that subject at all. Stay away from it too.

Well, this point could have been made or, you know, I wish you would have said this. So there's some research that shows this. Which one was? First of all, I talk to a lot of people. I have a lot of conversations. You do. You stay on the phone.

Stay on the phone. Talk to a lot. of people. And most of the people, some people I know that our actual is right there from there. Had such great conversations with them where they talked about their feelings and how they feel being a part of or watching what they're watching right now. Makes sense. Had these conversations greatly. They talked about so openly with such vulnerability about how they feel about themselves

and their children and the safety and the historic trauma of it while dealing with the reality of what's happening right now and it's a conversation where there were so many questions but the one thing that everyone could agree on

is that watching people starve and suffer so that one government delivers on its plan to ethnically cleanse people is wrong.

But then there were other people who got on the phone and had conversations with me where they asked me and those questions were actually threats. Oh my God. Yeah.

Questions like, how do you think what you say will play when you're in the room with certain people? Questions like like everyone sees you and they are always happy to see you coming. Like I don't know anyone who's, I can take something directly with someone saying. I don't know anyone who sees you walk into a room and goes, oh my God, and doesn't go, oh my God, I'm happy that van is here.

Which actually means something to me because my mother was very direct about that. My dad used to be like, hey man, you know, you go in a room and drop your nuts. make sure everybody knows that you're in there and whatever, whatever. My mom was like, you could do that. But you could also be in a place where people feel safe, secure, and happy that you're there. He was like, you could be in a room where people feel dominated and they feel like, oh, I don't know what to do the wrong thing. He's like, that works for a lot of people. It works for your father.

But she goes, you could also be walking a room and be like, and people would be like, oh, my God, I'm so happy, Vans here. I feel a little safer that Vans here. I feel the time to have fun, Vans here, right? so it means a lot that he said that but then he was like that doesn't laugh forever it could change if people think that you mean them harm

or and I'm like you had a rough week it wasn't rough at all because I like that type of shit because I do I like I like that type of shit it wasn't rough at all I was like I you know what fuck them

I was like fuck them and by the way also just broadly, fuck anybody operating on their behalf. How's that sound? So if someone is actually calling me and speaking for them, they can suck my dick too. So fuck them. If that's how they feel, I'm willing to have the conversation.

But if that's how they feel, fuck them and fuck anybody who is like Slickside trying to be down with them. All right, what's going on? How are you feeling? How you good? I love doing that. I love saying that. and then going right to another conversation. Yeah, so, man, what you think, man? Otani striking out a lot. I know you, like, I know you love the Dodgers, man.

Otani's striking out a lot. Fuck, fuck whoever is trying to threaten me. But Otani striking out of you, you care about that? Then we have a whole other conversation. Just know how to do a fuck about what you're saying. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, having said that, Canada made a big decision here, Donnie. Donnie, getting to it.

Yeah, you're right. Their prime minister, Mark Carney, announced that Canada plans to formally recognize Palestine during the UN General Assembly that's happening in September. And this is after France and 14 other countries co-signed a declaration. Thoughts? You can't have a two-state solution

if there aren't two states. So everyone that was talking about a two-state solution in the past that refused to recognize Palestine as a state full of shit. The first thing you have to do to recognize the self-determination of a people to recognize the

existence of a people is to recognize the people. It's very important to do that. So recognizing Palestine as a state is important for structurally, emotionally, and culturally to getting to a

place where we can adequately contextualize what's happened for decades there what's happened since Israel

has begun its genocide campaign there and what can happen in the future it is galling and upsetting

that so many had to die for this to begin but this is where we are well this is where they are it's not where we are

no we as people but we're not there yeah That's the first thing I thought about when I saw this announcement because last episode we talked about France. We talked about the announcement from the UK. And now here we are a couple of days later talking about the announcement for Canada. And all I keep thinking is so other countries are seeing what's happening and are taking an action against an injustice and against a country that is willing to participate in the destruction and the starvation of a group of people.

And here we are, and we can't even pass a vote in the Senate to not supply weapons to Israel. Like, we can't do anything. And that's all I kept thinking. And it's, I don't know how much longer the United States is going to be able to stay in this position. And I talked about it last episode with the pressure, the international pressure from other countries, seeing what's happening in Israel and saying, no, we're not going to stand for that. And then here we are justifying, not just not even recognize, wanting to recognize Palestine as a state, but also supplying the other state and helping them cause destruction

and harm on a group of people. That other state is Israel. Israel is intentionally starving the Gazans and is facilitating settler violence and land grabs on the West Bank. A record number of Senate Democrats voted to block the weapon sales to Israel. These resolutions which sought to block more than $675 million in weapons sales to Israel

was sponsored by Bernie Sanders. I know Bernie is tired. Bernie's interesting. It failed in the face of all Republicans and 20 Democrats voting against the measure. Democrats who voted against the measure of Michael Bennett, Richard Blumthaw, Cory Booker, Bridgett Cantwell, Chris Coons,

Catherine Cortez, Mastow, John Fetterman, Kristen Gillibrain, Maggie Assange, John Hickenlooper, Alex Padilla, Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer, Jackie Rosen, Mark Warner, Ron Biden. Now, there were some people who voted for it. Okay, so there was... More than ever, because there was a vote back in April. I think he was 15. More than ever.

So more than ever, there are some people that are becoming dissolution. There is something that's happened in here. I don't want to get the opinions of my podcast family here. Rachel, do you make a distinction between defensive weapons and offensive weapons? Let me tell you what I mean. So when Slokin was on breaking points and what you've heard other people say, even AOC, interestingly enough. They would say that voting to fund the Iron Dome,

which if you guys do not know, the Iron Dome is missile defense technology that Israel deploys to stop rockets from coming in. Voting to fund the Iron Dome is different than voting to fund offensive weapons, bombs, tanks, stuff like that that Israel might use to attack Palestine to attack Gaza and its neighbors. Do you see a difference between blocking funding

for defensive weapons for Israel and blocking funding for offensive weapons for Israel and just a blanket blocking of or stopping of military aid to Israel writ large? Does this 675 million specify which well this is weapons so this is offense beyond this particular part

of the way so forget about this let's just talk about the overall philosophy of it so to me offensive and I don't know if one is worse or better

than the other but offensive feels worse okay arming people supplying people so that they can attack and we'll say it will just call it

because people get on to me for not for saying people or the other state supplying Israel with weapons and arming them so they can cause more harm and destruction on Palestinians in an offensive way to continue the attack, to continue all the things that we were talking about in the last episode where we were talking about them shooting at them, getting aid, getting food, things like that. If we're supplying that, that feels way worse to me than supplying, are giving them money to have the dome to defend themselves against other attacks.

Donnie, what about you? I want to get what you think about this, too. Donnie, thoughts now. Jumping this fucking fire to you. Yeah, it is a fire. I don't know. I feel like weapons are weapons, defensive or offensive. I don't have a real understanding of how these defensive weapons work.

I hear the word weapon. I take it for what it is, no matter what the intention. So let's contextualize this. a little bit form an argument presented by the great Medi Hassan who continues to just wow me with his ability to

to navigate these situations. He was on Pod Save in a debate just uploaded yesterday. Progressive Democrat, Progressive versus Democrat debate is Medi Hassan versus Jeremy

Ben Ami. It's very, very good stuff on POTSA over there. Right. They're not painting. Now, this is what METI said. I'll throw this out to everyone. What METI said was this. Is at the end of the day,

the Iron Dome technology that exists in Israel is a part of the problem. This is what he said. See what you think about this. The reason why Israel is able to brazenly attack its neighbors

Iran, Syria, Lebanon, wherever. We're talking about not just attacks that have happened in Gaza. We're talking about Israel attacking its neighbors over the last, you know, a couple of years, attacking a lot of its neighbors for different reasons, right?

Just hit Syria the week before last, a couple of weeks ago, because of a skirmish that is happening with the Drew's people that exist there that Israel says it's protecting hit Syria, bomb Syria, right? Well, Medi says, and other people say, that the Iron Dome allows them to do that

because they are safe from any type of reciprocal attack. That the fact that the Iron Dome technology is so good that it repels all different types of weapons that come into Israel, allow Israel to act more brazenly in the way it wages war on Gaza and its neighbors because they essentially know that they are safe. That is not the only reason why they act that way, of course. They also act that way because they know that the United States of America will supply

them weapons that they need to go out and fight to wage war. Said early on in this war that Israel could not achieve its goals in Gaza without what America was supplying them with. So there is a method of thinking here that says the only way to really bring Israel to

negotiating table for peace, not just a peace and a ceasefire in Gaza now, but a lasting piece, a generational peace that lasts for years and decades, where two sides come together and figure out how they are going to live side by side

without hurting and harming each other. is for the United States to stop military aid there completely. Oh, I would agree with that. And make the Israelis do it on their own. Oh, no, no, no. I would 100% agree with that. But if you're asking me to compare

offensive weapons versus defensive weapons and I'm having to pick which one I think is more harmful, more dangerous, you know, to the point of what Medi was saying, if we weren't, giving them money for offensive weapons, then they would have to figure out a way on their own

to attack these other neighboring countries. Right. But he's also saying that the fact that we give them missile defense technology means that they can do stuff that they want to do and they don't have to worry about reprisal. I agree. We should just stop doing it at all, especially in light of what's been happening,

but what's specifically happening right now. I believe it should be gone away, period. But I'm more disturbed if I'm having to choose one or the other, that we are arming them with the means. to be able to. Like, people protecting themselves, okay, using it for bad, another problematic issue. But if we are arming them so they can continue to harm other people and take advantage of them, that's the one I'm picking as worse if I have to make a choice.

But I do understand. But yes, I don't think we should be giving them anything at all. So before we move on, something just happened. The Arab states called on Hamas to disarm and run. relinquished power. It's an unprecedented move. Arab states. They called on Hamas? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Which. This is what happened. This is what happened. Arab and Muslim states, including Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt have for the first time issued a joint call for Hamas to disarm and relinquish power in the Gaza strip as parts of efforts to end the war in the territory. The 22-member Arab League, the entire European Union. Union and 17 other countries, back the declaration, signed at the United Nations co-hosted

by Saudi Arabia, France on Tuesday, meaning New York aimed to address the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine and the implementation of the two-state solution. Now, right away when I saw this, I didn't know what to make of it. But luckily for me, I have brilliant people on this issue. Like some of the most brilliant minds ever on this issue will answer. are me when I reach out to them. I'm talking about like really the top of the top people here, right?

And the general consensus was like, this is not the worst thing ever. It's actually one of the guys said directly. Because if in fact Hamas, first of all, you want Hamas gone. You do. Hamas hasn't had elections in a long time.

And Hamas, it is not untrue that as long as Hamas Hamas and the Israeli right-wing government are almost mirroring each other in a way. The conflict is good for both of them because Hamas needs to continuously operate under the assumption that whatever

Hamas needs there to be animus with Israel to continue its hold on Gaza, they need that to continue its holds on. They haven't had elections in a long time. And obviously Netanyahu needs there to be continuous animus with Gaza and Iran and other places to have his hold on Israel. Right. And so he doesn't face trial. And so he doesn't face trial.

So if Hamas is gone and the Arab world is able to force Hamas to leave or relinquish power in the area, then it specifically calls into question Israel's sincerity in living peaceful with the Palestinians. Right. What was the priority? The hostages, getting the hostages home or the destruction? I'm talking about

holistically here. No, no, no, no, no. But you, yeah, I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm just saying, no, the whole thing we do it to each other. The whole thing, has been this is to get the hostages, right? Or to get Hamas out? Yes. But they want, you know, even the people who are very, very pro-Israel are like, bring the hostages home.

It's all about the hostages. Yes, but Hamas is there causing disruption. They're keeping our hostages. It will call into play. What are you prioritizing getting the hostages back? Or is it more about totally obliterating a nation, I mean, a state, and an existence of people? Precisely. So if, in fact,

I would imagine that if Hamas were relinquished power that the hostages coming home would be a part of that. Right. But then how do you handle the state? Right. So and look, the fact that Hamas hasn't, like I'll go back and say this again, hasn't had elections in a long time. It also, once again, it starts to prioritize peace, the rebuilding of Gaza, and a cooperation or a mutually shared existence between Israel and the Palestinians. And that's going to be a lot deeper of a conversation that's not just about Gaza. That's also about the West Bank.

That's about settlements in the West Bank. That's about Jerusalem. That's about the way people are able to move freely from the West Bank to Gaza. There are so many things. That's about the rights of Arab people inside of Israel. Because you'll talk to a lot of people and you'll say, hey, they'll say, hey, you know, just let you know, Arabs live with equal rights in Israel.

Not true. Not true. So there is a lot of talks and healing to be had. But it seems like the Arab world is saying, they are same. Large parts of the Arab world are saying there's no future for the Gazans, or the Palestinians in Gaza if they are ruled by Hamas. And I think that that was probably, not what was probably,

that was the right move for the Arab world to make. We're not connected or like handcuffed to Hamas ruling here. Because I think, to be honest with you, I think a lot of the Arab world would want to have better relations with Israel because better relations with Israel is better relations with the United States. So, you know, if we get to a point to where it seems like the entire region

is interested in turning the page on this, then the page might actually get turned. But Hamas does not have a future in Gaza. They don't. And so with the Arab world seeing a lot, parts of the Arab world, seeing a lot of the suffering and starving there, to see this happen,

I think that I expected people to be a little bit more. I expected some people to be like, well, Hamas is not actually the problem in the region. The conditions are the problem in the region. I think a lot of people understand that and get that to be true. That if, in fact, people live and they aren't free and they don't have self-determination, there will always be an organization that pops up and is ready to take advantage of that and is ready to galvanize those people for means that don't really serve them, right? But I think more specifically right now, people want an end to the hunger. They want an end to the killing. And they just want like actual solutions that exist in the region. So, I don't know.

It's interesting. It's interesting. I wonder what kind of influence it'll have. All right. A couple of things here real quick before we get to the end of show. Shannon Sharp is not coming back to ESPN. I don't think anybody is surprised by that announcement. Even Shannon Sharp himself.

You think you know? Who asked us to stop talking about it so he could focus on his brother getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. What did he say that? He did a on nightcap. He talked about it and he's like, please wait until Monday to talk about this. Is the Hall of Fame? Yeah. When is the game?

Okay. Yeah. The ceremony is Saturday. Yeah. He said, please stop talking about this. So he apologized to his brother for taking away from his shine because he wants to focus on that. And then said Monday we can resume. But here we are.

he said he knew earlier in the week that this announcement was coming. I think the moment that somebody puts you on temporary leave and for what they put him on temporary leave for, this was always going to be the end result. At that same time that we're getting this news, Gilbert Arenas was arrested. In connection with a federal indictment that alleges the former NBA star hosted illegal high-stakes poker games

as Manchin in Encino, He's officially charged with one count of conspiracy to operate in illegal gambling business, one count of operating in illegal gambling business, and one count of making false statements to federal investigators. He appeared in the U.S. District Court on Wednesday afternoon. Downtown Los Angeles was a release on $50,000 bond after pleading not guilty. His trial is scheduled for September 23rd. Very quick.

What do you make of that? I mean, somebody asked for a speedy trial. they got it. I mean, but isn't he saying that, I mean, we don't have really many details in this, but isn't he saying that he didn't know anything about it? He just ran at the house.

Yeah. So the LA Times did an entire breakdown here. And it looks like that these games came together in 2021. According to the indictment that year, author Katz texted Gilbert Arenas asking him, as according to the indictment, whether or not he planned on doing his own game. and Arenas allegedly responded

He might throw pro-games at my house referring to illegal Pot-Limit Omaha games at the Gable House. Authorities said that Katz was not arrested alongside of under-defendants Wednesday. Law enforcement is actually searching for him. According to this article, the following months,

Gilbert texted Katz, the dates that his house will be available to host, the amount of rent he wanted to charge, and the number of games he planned on hosting there per week. November 2021, authorities said Arenas texted Katz a picture of a gold trim poker table with Arinas poker club printed on it and an image of a basketball player with a jersey with the name Arinas and the number zero on it. In December, Katz allegedly texted Arina saying that he owed him $14,000 for tables and chairs as a startup expense for hosting the games that same month. Aranis allegedly told Katz he wanted to make the rake from an illegal poker game at the house to go.

to the mother of a deceased former lover. So all kind of stuff that's happening here. Okay. They raided his house. They raided this house, should I say. It looks like July 19th, 2020. And when they raided this house,

apparently illegal gambling activities were in full swing. There were ladies that worked at this place, and these ladies were hired, according to the indictment, in the capacity of like ladies they've given out money, like, you know, work in the games, then massages,

then also for companionship. Oh, so the full service. Well, look, this is all according to, this is all according to an indictment. None of this is absolutely fact. It's all according to an indictment. When I'm looking at this,

the government I don't think wants Gilbert Arenas Okay, they want somebody bigger I think that there are other people involved in this that the government wants more because they're there's like an Israeli

like mob boss Oh yeah, I saw that wrapped up into this There's Yovini Gershman of Woodland Hills Just all kinds of different people All of these people They say prosecutors

described Gershman as a suspected high-level member of an Israeli transnational organized crime group. Okay? These are all people that are operating out of the Woodland Hills faction of whatever. So it seems as if some of these

other people are involved in this game and because Gilbert was hosting these games, according to the Feds, and there is a criminal penalty that comes along with that, that they might want him to give somebody else up. I mean, you think he's going to do it? You know, it's interesting.

It's hard to say, but we do have a video of him running down the stairs gleefully. And what was the hashtag? What was the hashtag? It said, snishing Gill or something like that. Okay, so this is what I'll say. Just say it. This is interesting. First of all, I have two things to say.

One, Gil, man. I'm enjoying what Gil is doing with Gil's arena. It is such a great show. My homeboy Nick. young on there. I watch the show for all kinds of stuff. Right. Have you done it?

I have not done the show. Have you done it? Yeah, I've not done a show. But I'm enjoying watching the show. It's interesting to see, you know, Gil and Elijah Aranis, it's interesting to see Gil's second act. Bro, do not fucking poke the feds, man. The feds are vicious, petty,

nigger hunters. They are. They don't like to be made fun of. They don't like the playing. They don't like none of that. They don't like that shit. They take that goddamn shit personally. And if you find yourself in a situation

where you are under the microscope of the feds, they will take that fucking shit out on you in sentencing. In the way did they go about this, they do not like to be embarrassed. And also, I think the feds are probably a little bit more on edge right now because the Diddy thing made them look bad. Two different courts. I get it.

I know it's two different courts. But overall, if the feds try Diddy and Gil in the same year, and they don't get either one of them, it looks like maybe they can't do what they always like to do, which is hunt niggers. So are you, hardar, are you telling him to snitch? I'm not telling him to snitch. You're telling him to save himself.

I'm saying, let's, we don't need to joke about this one. It's not time for the jokes. It didn't sound like he was joking. It sounded like he was like, I'm not going out like this. So I'll do what I need to do. Lead the jokes like, damn,

what did Martin say in, Bad boys. Damn the jokes. Damn them. Okay. It's like, no time for jokes. But I'm going to ask you, though. Do you think Gil should snitch? You think he should? I mean, he's got too much to lose. What's he going down for? What are they offering? What are they offering? If they only offering like 12 months or something like that, maybe.

But it's like, like you said, he's got a successful podcast. It's on the up. He has a family. He has a son who's about to be. One of the most talented prospects. We know they just went through, you know, a scare there. Son's doing better.

Son's a big prospect. Like, there's so much that seems to be, he's got a lot to lose, that it's like maybe this isn't the hill to die on. He's going to have to weigh it out. Donnie, do you think Gil should snitch? You snitching? If I had what he had,

I'm telling. Now, you scare me when you start talking about, you know, who he's... Bombers and shit. Well, yeah, you know what it makes me think of? And rest in peace to Avi from Snowfall. Passed away. Yeah, pass away, yeah.

It makes me think of like, are you in business? Like, those are people you don't mess with. Yeah, you don't fuck with them. But it seems like Gil's going to be faced... You're not telling? Probably. But see, here's a deal with me, though. don't do crimes with me.

Don't involve me in crime. Don't involve me and none of that stuff. He was a pretty, it seems, I mean, his name was on the table. Yeah, according to the indictment. According to the indictment. I'm not the type of Nick, I'm not, like, I could call Ryan right now.

Like, one of my homeboys that was, he's like, they never, I'm not, I'm not down for it. Because like, I, I always think about it. I don't talk, I don't like talking to the police, because I don't like talking to the police, I don't trust the police, but like, I always think about it. like, you know, the code and stuff, the snitching code and all of that.

I'm not a street nigger. I'm not one of them street niggas. There's a difference between being a street nigger and being a nigger that's from some streets. If you're from some places that have streets, then there's a certain way that you probably look at the world. Yeah. But being a street nigger means that you are in the streets.

Then you're doing crimes or you probably shouldn't snitch. I don't think Gill is a street nigger, by any way, shape, or form. maybe, but I don't think he is. And I don't think he would have been bouncing down the steps like that with the hashtag. So, man, Gil, save yourself, bro. I would. Like, save yourself, man.

Just go ahead and fucking tell. I would. Like, save yourself. Too much to lose. This looks bad. All right, before we get out here, I've got to do something real quick. Okay? I want to let people know something.

I do not care about criticism at all in any way, shape, or form. Criticism is fine. You can't as a public figure. Can't care about criticism as a public figure. But I do care that people know what the fuck they're talking about. That I care about. Go ahead. Talk about it.

When you are going to criticize me, that's cool. Criticize me. Know what the fuck you're talking about, though. So a lot of people criticize me over the whole COVID thing, right? Really? Yeah. Because think about it. It makes sense.

Like, we are black. Mm-hmm. Black people have... Wait, so a lot of black people criticized you? A lot of black people criticized me. A lot of black people criticized to talk about Hulk Hogan, period. And I understand it. We are black. We have... To me, I'm going to speak broadly and generally here.

We have a cultural spirituality that's in us. We are close to a Jadael Christian ethic. We commune. A lot of us believe. A lot of us are super... that we're superstitious and spiritual in a different way, right? And a lot of us have a very specific relationship with death. So when someone dies, we're also cast in America as imperfect,

as inherently imperfect. So a lot of times when you go to funerals, I'll speak for myself. A lot of times when I go to funerals in Louisiana, I am not wrestling, but contextualizing the person I knew with the person that everybody else knew. If someone right now was to talk about my uncle Mark,

they might have all kinds of things to say about my Uncle Mark. Might call him what the young niggas call a demon or might say all this, but he was an angel to me. So I get that. I understand that. I knew that it would be unpopular to speak. And I've talked about it here on the podcast before, like how it makes me uncomfortable to speak on somebody's death

when they have just passed. But when you're going to criticize me for doing so, just know what the fuck you're talking about. DJ academics was on stream. He did a very long stream. I think it was like a 15-hour stream. Not all on this, but on all kinds of other stuff.

And he talked about the reasons why he had a problem with what I said about Hulk Hogan. Donnie, play the first clip. I never seen none of these niggins say done this shit about Holt before. Not one. That's the point.

You got to say it before. I don't respect nobody who waited until Hulk stop breathing and say it. Tell me, listen, the niggins I don't like, If Rory died tomorrow, I'm going up on him tomorrow. I'm going up with him today too. I'm not going to just stay quiet until he died.

I'll be like, oh shit, you die? I am popping up. No, I don't respect that shit. That's the point I'm trying to tell you. It's not about hope. If I never heard these niggins say this shit, I'm looking up to say, bro, you can't spend the funeral. You got to spend the block.

I put it like this. Why you? Y'all got all this opinion about this, man. And I've never seen our niggas really stand on business to let this nigger know this shit while the nigger can hear it. The nigga dad, he's not hearing shit right now. That nigger hearing white noise. All right.

So if you can't see the clip, I'm behind it. It's me with my hat, my bucket hat. Y'all fucking with my bucket hat. This is great for higher learning. Look at us. Higher learning, getting a bigger audience. Come on.

It's me with my bucket hat behind there. Right? And he's talking about the fact that you should criticize people while they're alive. if you have problems while they're alive, not just wait till they're dead. He's also talking about the rest in peace, rest and piss, smoking on a pack,

all of that stuff. Kind of a drill music type of thing. People talk about drill music. So I want to say two things to that before I get to the next clip. One is I never said that about Hulk Hogan. I never said fuck Hulk Hogan. I never said that the world

is a better place without Hulk Hogan. Sure, you didn't. What I said and what I maintain right now is that for, us to be, for us to want to be remembered well, we have to live well. And that is not, that doesn't come from a specific individual moral perspective. Every single person is immoral. If you believe in the Bible, the Bible says all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

What I am talking about right now is from a holistic, humanistic level, meaning how you show up in the world based upon making people's lives better and being a member of the world community. And you cannot be somebody that shows up and is a good member of the world community if you are a racist. It's impossible. Racist is bigger than individual person.

It's not somebody that have problems with fidelity in their marriage or it's not somebody that cheated on their taxes once. It's somebody that has a negative opinion of an entire group of people who will live their life with that negative opinion of those entire group of people and do things intentionally and unintentionally

to affect those people. Right? It is something that has to be rooted out. It is a big systemic dysfunction, racism. And when you endeavor into it, when you are a part of it, you become a part of something much, much bigger than just your personal moral setbacks.

All right. My dad. My dad passes away. My dad dies, right? A couple years ago. Talked about this ad nauseum. Can't go over it. Don't know why.

I'm talking to one of my dad's other sons, one of my brothers. I asked this kid. I say, hey, he died or you sad? Do you know what his response was? A little. And I'm like, how could something so formative in my life? The death of my father only matter a little to you. And he's your dad too.

So I asked him that. And he goes, well, really he wasn't my dad. He was your father. He was your father and he was the guy that made me. He was around a little bit at the beginning. But when it came down to choosing his family, which was your family, and my life, he chose y'all. So it doesn't matter whether or not he was this larger than life figure

and all of this stuff that I remembered him as. Somebody else remembers him for what he did in their life. And while at first me trying to make a relationship with this person or talk to this person, at first I'm like, well, fuck, that hurts. But I have to be real about the fact that my dad's life and how he will be remembered by his son, his son, my half brother, his full son, that's for him to deal with.

That's for his son to deal with. That's for his son to remember him. And that's fair. That's fair. All right. I haven't said all of that. Act is just wrong. He's just straight up wrong.

Saying that I did not have anything to say about Hulk Hogan when Hoke Hogan was alive. All I simply did was one search. Van Lathen Hoke Hogan. Donnie, DJ Vlad, 2023. It's not a situation to where when someone comes out and espouses their actual real thoughts about black people. I'm not talking about people who we can legislate whether or not they watch the documentary or where they really have these beliefs or they straight up say I'm not.

I'm talking about people who in their private moments have said, I don't fuck with black people like that. Yeah. Yeah, Conry technically didn't say anything. All he did was tweet a link. Now, he handled it badly, but what I'm saying is that like, when these people get to do their comebacks, they don't have to go do two weeks with Dr. Umar. You know what I'm saying? Like, they don't have to, you know what I'm saying? They don't have to, that's not what they make them go.

They don't, they don't make them. They don't make them sit down with Dr. Umar Johnson for two weeks. Hogan needs to do. Every day. Hulk Hogan needs to two weeks go help Dr. Umar build the school.

They don't have to do that. The school is promising all these years. They took the school coming. So that's me talking about, that's like me from a year ago, talking about the fact that Hulk Hogan's legacy still remains unresolved

because he hasn't properly properly figured out his usage with black people. By the way, it didn't stop coming. I covered things. You guys think it's just about one thing that Hulk Hogan said. I covered Hulk Hogan at TMZ. We did a story,

this was also on TV, me talking about Hulk Hogan. We did a story about Hulk Hogan's restaurant to where Hulk Hogan had what many people believed to be a racist dress code for his restaurant. Covered that story on TMZ with other people.

We did it on the show. A couple of years ago, we talked about the fact that Hulk Hogan fucking, there was a spokesmodel that was working for Hulk Hogan's real American beer. They hired two spokesmodels. One girl showed up. She was there with Hoke Hogan.

She's a black, beautiful young lady. She was fired after Hoke Hogan met her. She told that they no longer needed her. She's asking, well, why did they tell me not to come back? They didn't tell the other girl not to come back. Did Hoke Hogan not realize that I was black when he hired me, does he not want that image for his beer? Right?

And if you go to Twitter, two different tweets, I'm watching the Vince McMahon documentary. Last year on Twitter, a tweet, Hulk Hogan is the worst nigga alive, Van Lathen. I tweeted a song by macho man Randy Savage called Be a Man Hogan. I have been a critical of Hulk Hogan for his whole career.

Since he did what he did. Since he did what he did, yeah. So me talking about him is actually the culmination of what I wished he would have done for him being somebody that I looked up to in my youth, which was deal with the fact that he has something inside of him that makes him look down and treat poorly a whole race of people. It's not all acts said.

Donnie's second clip. Van my nigga, but I think it's some corny shit. Like, everybody doesn't make some mistakes, the shit like this i i watch van on some shit where van was like yo i'm gonna get to that too van basically was like yo i know that rock nation be doing some shit because they try to do it when i was at tmz nick imagine if you died and and and nessa was like man we smoking on van now nigger you you you undermined my family because you coulda you could have you could have did more that that um that's that's a point of i'll be hearing some of this stuff i'm like

the nigga dead bro you should a y'all should have rode out with y'all beef if everybody and i got opinions about hoke if i never heard it when he was alive i don't want to hear it now stop stop the tape so essentially what's being said right there is that what i should have done when i understood that rock nation was trying to plant negative stories about colin cappernick was reach out to Colin Kaepernick and Nessa and let them know. Or I should have talked about the Colin Kaepernick

Rock Nation back and forth before Niki Manage and Nessa brought it up. That I should have done that. That's what he's saying. I would like for anyone to ask Nessa or Colin what I did immediately.

Well, you said you reached out after the pipe. Of course I reached out to him. I reached out to the mill. It was like, hey, just to let you know this is what's going on. And then I talked about it on this podcast, of course, but not only did I talk about it on this podcast. I talked about it to Spike Lee. I did an interview a couple of years ago with Spike Lee.

It's in my fucking room talking to Spike Lee. What I laid out from A to Z, the Rock Nation, JZ, Colin Kaepernick thing, as I saw it and experienced that TMZ. I don't know where the documentary is. I don't know what happened to the documentary. I'm not involved in that part. But you know who asked me to do that?

Ness and Colin. They didn't ask me to get on there and like kick and kick Rock Nations back in. That's not what they were asking me to do. It was a documentary about Colin Kaepernick, about what he had gone through. And they asked me whether or not I would be willing to tell that story. And the reality is I had to be willing to tell that story because it is, truthful. That is what happened. And in context of what went on between Colin Kaepernett and Jay-Z, it is a good piece of information, right, for people to have, right? And there's not

no secret. I'm not under any type of the whole deal. So what I don't get, I get the criticism. But Act is actually better than this. Slow Newsday? I have no clue. what this is actually about. But he's actually better than this. Because I tell you something, for all of this shit that he's gotten himself into and some of this shit has been some real fucked up shit and we know it, right?

When you sit down and listen to him, talk about, like, music or whatever, he's normally very informed. And people are normally very informed about, he's normally very informed about the goings on and the happenings and all of this stuff. He's normally really good about that. but he was just yapping.

You know what I thought when I heard this and glad you were able to lay out because it is, as you said, a simple search of your name with Hulk Hogan will show that this isn't the first time that you've spoken about Hulk Hogan, nor even the way you talked about him on the podcast, you were like, I wish you were talked about

you wish you didn't have to feel this way, you know, because of how you did admire him. You weren't like, you gave reason behind every single thing that you said and it made sense. A lot of sense. When I listened to this, I thought, I wonder if DJ academics is thinking about his own mortality. What you mean? I wonder if he thinks is thinking, what will people say about me?

Oh, I see what you mean. When I go. Yeah. What will be brought up? Because, you know, we've had on the podcast. I think he's a jester. I, you know, like I, whatever. It is what it is with him.

But there are so, he's a polarizing figure as a talking head. and there are so many controversial things attached to his name, grooming allegations, sexual assault allegations, public beefs, just like different things where he's gone back and forth with different people. There's a lot of controversy there. And I wonder if he thought to himself, when I go, what will people say about me? How will people talk about me? Will it be people who've been, you know, kept this energy the same time?

Or will it be people piling on me what he feels like you did, which you didn't, you clarify. Will it be people piling on top of me when I go and don't look at anything else that I've done? That's, because he seemed very sensitive as he was going through this. This felt like an emotional rant. And to your point, he is normally a little bit more, not a little bit, but well, more research. You know, like this was a quick, easy thing for him to do. So I think this was personal to him. Now I'm speculating. I have no idea, but it felt emotional as in he thought about himself. Right. In this situation. So what I'll say a couple of things.

And that is not me taking up for him. Like I say a couple of things. But one is this. I've said this a million times and I'll say it a million and one. I'm not looking for anyone to look at me as the moral arbiter of what people do or don't do. I don't. I'm not getting into people's bedrooms. I'm not getting into people's diets.

I'm not getting into any of that. None of that matters to me. Right? It doesn't matter to me how good of a person you are. matters to me how good of a human you are. Those are two different things. Being a good person is holding yourself to a specific moral standard that you believe works for you. I know people that say it's the moral thing to do not to snitch on your homies as you guys have done a murder.

Well, the morality there is obviously very subjective, right? Because you've done the murder. is the murder more moral or immoral than the snitching? Because I would say that once you've killed someone or murdered somebody for some money or some beef or whatever, what you do after that is kind of a moral wash, right? So morality is something that, to me, it has a place insofar as how we define what's best for human beings, right? but the what's best for human beings is the part that I care about. What I care is whether or not your life and the life that you live

and the life that you project makes it harder for somebody else to live their life. Whether or not your life living as a man makes it harder for women, whether or not your life living as a white man makes it harder for black people. Because I don't ever want my life, my existence, my experience, to my expression to make it harder for somebody else to live. I don't want rights that somebody else doesn't have. I look at things about like

how you will be remembered and looked at as a member of the human community, not as a moral person because every single person, every single person will deal with questions about their morality, questions about their choices, questions about them,

and their spiritual makeup and the relationship they have with their God, every person. My dad had two Bibles. He said, I had like two Bibles. He'd tell me he had two Bibles. He would be like he had one Bible that he would keep on himself. Then he'd have another Bible. He'd give it to somebody

in case they needed it. Well, he should have gave one of those Bibles to his son. Right? That does not change the way I loved him. It doesn't. But, man, you leave something on this earth. You leave. leave it there. What you take with you after, that's between you and God, you and your God, you and the universe. But you leave something on this earth. And what you leave on this earth,

in my opinion, is how you showed up for other people. Like, that's what you leave. That's what you leave. And I don't give a fuck what nobody say, what he say, what nobody else say, you could not have shown up that well for people if you are a raging, fucking racist. that's the end of that conversation. That's the end. Deal with it. Deal with your racism. Deal with your sexism.

Deal with your homophobia. Deal with all the ways that your existence makes somebody else's life harder. Deal with it. Or when you're gone, we're going to go, that niggal was awesome in 86 ripping off of his shirt.

But you know what? He didn't want no niggas around his fucking family. How am I supposed to feel about that? Like, how am I, you know what I'm saying? So I get it. I get everybody who might have felt the way you say, that he felt. Maybe he did feel that way. I get everybody that went,

nah, man, he just passed on, he just did this. I'm not asking y'all to be, I'm not asking anybody to be perfect. I'm certainly not perfect. Academics knows I'm not perfect, right? Like other people, you know I'm not perfect, but what I am trying to do desperately, intentionally, and genuinely is figure out how I can be a man on this planet that makes other people's lives better. that makes other people's lives freer and more expressive so that when I'm gone

somebody might be he cheated on this girl and he was a bad person and he might have been like somebody that was flaky at times and he might have been someone who could spin a yarn

he might have been somebody who could be overbearing, could cut people off, but I tell you one thing, he cared about your suffering. And he wanted the best for you. And he took care of responsibilities that he felt like he had to his family

and to his community. He did that. And either you give a fuck about that or you don't. Yeah. And that's it. And that's it. But don't let death stop you from being able to contextualize things that happened while they were alive and discussed them. You don't have to be disrespectful about it.

You don't have to be any of that stuff about it. But I'm surprised that people were like, they were so upset that we just went, you know what, man, we wish Hulk Hogan wasn't a racist. Spent way too much time on this. Like, that's enough. It's personal. Yeah, that's enough.

I expect better from you. Act. I don't know why. But that's your friend. I expect better from you. That's your friend. I expect DJ academics to be one of the people before he's going to level of criticism at somebody to know what it is that they talk about, especially if you're going to be specific. If you're going to say you never reached out to Nessa and Colin, you got to know that.

That was so random for him to throw all that. That was, he was again, slow news day. He had space to fill. Yeah. All right. That's it. That's enough. Everything's done.

I just want everyone to know that Rachel's pork-based diet is taken. over, man. Rachel got two big slabs of bacon. And you know what's interesting about the slabs of bacon that Rachel got? Donnie, you ever notice how bacon gets when it's a little old? It's not fresh bacon. No, it's fresh. It starts to colate. It's like the, it starts. This is fresh. Yeah. And so you start to see the little white spots on the fat of the bacon. That's because I had it wrapped in a napkin for two hours. It's not fresh. It's old. It's. You got to warm that bacon up because that bacon, the fat is starting to get

fucking... No, I don't want none of it. And then you've got the thick bacon, too. That's the thick bacon. I've been craving the thick bacon. I bet you have. Rachel's pork-based diet is going too far, guys. Take a thing to help us off, but do not stop learning.

I'm Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds, fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story.

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