Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Talking ‘Him,’ Biracial Identity, and Athleticism With Tyriq Withers! Plus, the Back-and-Forth With Stephen A. and Jimmy Kimmel’s Return. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Rachel and Van start the show off by talking about Stephen A. Smith’s response to our comments last show before getting into the removal of ‘Fearless Debaters’ from TSU’s campus and Jimmy Kimmel’s successful return. Then, Tyriq Withers joins the show to talk about his new movie, ‘Him’; the different reactions to the film; the realism of the athleticism showcased in it; and biracial identity. 00:00 - Welcome! 07:29 - Stephen A.’s response to Higher Learning 32:32 - Pandering to Black women 37:47 - ‘Fearless Debaters’ removed from TSU's campus 48:13 - Jimmy Kimmel’s return 1:10:03 - The missing PS5 1:16:38 - Kamala Harris’s appearance on 'The Rachel Maddow Show' 1:20:52 - Tyriq Withers joins us! 1:52:25 - Thanks for watching! Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Tyriq Withers Producers: Donnie Beacham and Ashleigh Smith Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Hilarian is on, is I Van Lazyton Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel, where are you at, Rachel? On the road. On the road, like where exactly don't tell me? Why?

Why I got to tell everybody about business? I do a Lady World this weekend in Destin, Florida. Lady World. Oh, but they want to know the exact address that you're. Stop. Keep going. Do it now. Okay.

What's Lady World? What's Lady World? It's a big festival. It's put on by Lady Gang Podcasts, group of women, and Kelty Knight had this big envision of like getting all your best friends together, kind of like an homage to the 2000s.

So it's like Y2K Night and people performing are like Mark McGrath and O-Town and it's just like a Yeah, it's Chris Capacrick from InSink. This is a watt? This is a watt gathering? People are. I'm there. I'm there.

But when you said Lady Gang. We're performing. Lady Gang is the name of it. They're calling it Lady World. So it's to all their listeners. Anybody's a fan. And then like there's a bunch of people performing doing like shows on stage. So Justin Sylvester and I are doing a show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Justin and I are doing a show together. Yeah. So we're going to have some fun. But like a bunch of different people will be there. A lot of podcasters. What happens when you make fun? one girl-powered community with

Ducy Pop Culture Commentary, a dash of unfiltered celebrity interviews at three LA ladies with a killer sense of humor. You get not only one of America's most popular podcast, but a phenomenon that everyone from U.S. Weekly to Entertainment Weekly is talking about. Welcome to the Lady Gang with

Kilty Night, Becca Tobin, and Jack Vannick. A different celebrity guest joins each week as these ladies discuss topics such as dating in LA, breakups, parenthood, career, and social media. That's their podcast description. Yes, yes, yes. I've heard a thing before. So I've never been a Destin

before, so this is fun. We'll be fun. Is it like you guys going to the beach and all that type of dumb as shit? Yeah, staying right on the beach. Going to the festival for a couple of days. We don't perform. We perform Saturday. And Who performs? Who's performing?

Well, I told you. Like, Chris Colpatrick. Oh, no. But you said we're performing. You're performing? Me and Justin. Me and Justin. I mean, like well, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're going with. Some friends from Louisiana. Who? Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, chicken.

It's chicken time again. With the chicken people? You guys want the chicken people. The chicken niggles ride again. And you're with them. These are the richest people in Louisiana, by the way. It is. There's the rich people in Louisiana. No bullshit. $22 billion off chicken.

I'm very proud of what they've been able to do at Raising Cain's. So chicken all over the world, $22 billion. dollars. You know, North Baton Rouge can use some help. Maybe they'll do it. Maybe they want. Listen. Y'all, when you with the chicken niggers, is it, y'all eat a lot of raisin canes?

It's like, y'all just having the chicken, no? I've never had Raisin Kings with them. So let me tell me that all of this, you're hanging out with them. You can't even get a chicken finger. That's not what it's about. That's not what it's about. I don't always wonder, because we got to get to Stephen A. Smith.

Yeah, breaking news, basically, that dropped. But you know what I wondered? I wonder. What? For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. If you are Todd Graves and you run Raising Keynes and you go, this is kind of what fat people like myself, fat niggas think. Obviously it would be dope to have Raisin Cains and be worth $22 billion. Not for me because I don't care about that before a lot of people, right? But what would be doper is that let's say you're Tar Graves

and you're in Jacksonville, Florida. And Jacksonville, we're talking to Tiger Withers, who's the star of him and join us later on the show. Mm-hmm. And you just want some Raising Cains. Can you stop at any Raisin Cains if you are Tar Cray's and be like,

yo, give me a Caniac to go, I need it? Why would you not? I would imagine, because... Does he give free chants? He gets free chicken. I'm not with him. I'm not with him. I'm friends with him.

Like, we're on, it's girls' trip. But I'm not with him. But not them, but somebody I else, maybe it was a wing stop. I knew some people who were on a wing stop. And there was like a card. I don't know if it was wingstop or not that they could show that they could always get free stuff. There was something there. So maybe he's got something like that.

But I don't know. I'm not really, I don't know. I'm not around him. You know what y'all should do for social? you guys should take the chicken heiress and you guys should go into a raising canes and just have her go up to the front and order chicken

and then when they ask to pay for it, she should say, I'm Tarragher's wife and I don't pay for chicken. Like, I always started this in Baton Rouge. It's grown and I don't pay for chicken. I'm tall Grays' wife. You see what they say. You see what they say.

Maybe they give the chicken up. Okay, I would solve the story, but I was in Nashville one time. And we were on Broadway. I was like, I want to go to Broadway. I want to go to Broadway. So on Broadway, we're drinking, having a good time. And like, I'm hungry.

And I'm going to eat. And the line for Raisin Keynes is down, like, wrapped down the street, wrapped around the corner. I was like, I'm not waiting this line. Now walk up to the front. And I go, we know the owners. See? Now, Donnie.

Dead ass. Now, wait. Now, wait. Now, wait. See what I'm saying? Now, I notice. So, so this is why that's, this is why y'all drove me when y'all were having that conversation.

I will, I will acknowledge you. That's why, this is why my brain cratered when we were having that conversation because I was like, I know this, nigga. I've never said I have it. But here's the crazy thing. I say it. Chicken. I say it.

I say it without any kind of. proof, right? It's 12.30 in the morning. I'm lit. It's me. I got Willie back there. He was like, I'm not doing that. And I was like, well, I'm going to go with you. Justice of Vessel was with you? No, it was me and Willie. Oh, yeah. And I was like, he was like, I'm not going up there. And I was like, watch this. And I just went up there. Did they give you the chicken? He goes, how many people are with you? Now, I didn't ask for free food. I asked to cut the line. And I said, he said, how many people are with you? And I was like, me and him. He was like, come on.

So I'm talking about it. They didn't really give you that because they just like you. They didn't give you. He was a black. He was a black. He was a black cop. He probably was like, come on, sister. Come here. But I definitely tried it.

I definitely tried it. Okay. We have a lot to talk about on higher laundry today. We talked about the fact we have Tyreek Withers from him. Barry. Divisive movie, I would say. The responsive movie has been divisive. However, it's long.

in a young career. And that is the career of Tyreek Withers. And he's going to join us on higher learning a little bit later today. The first thing we're going to do is talk about the fact that literally as we speak, Stephen A. Smith responded to some of the things that we had to say on higher learning last week. And we met him in criticism before. Respect, respectful criticism, but we met him in criticism before. So we want to make sure that our audience listens to what he had to say, give him his say, and we'll respond to that in-kind. He responded to our criticism of Stephen A. Smith's saying, act accordingly. This is what he said.

The people that you've respected. That's me talking. They reacted to the American political reality. They never acted accordingly. Lies respectfully, because I like Van Lathen and I respect that brother. But that's not true. Martin Luther King adapted, Malcolm X adapted, Megga Evers adapted. The list goes on and on and on.

Look at the civil rights movement and some of the things that provoked it. Look at Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on a bus. That was planned and orchestrated because they recognized what kind of fallout would emanate from that, which would help spearhead the civil rights movement. Folks knew exactly what they were doing. They knew what they were up against and they strategized. That's all I meant, Van. Adapting doesn't mean capacity.

It doesn't mean surrendering. It doesn't mean tolerating quietly with no resistance whatsoever. The shrapnel of bigotry, racism, or anything else that might come our way. It means strategizing and operating accordingly. That's how you win. That's how things get done. When I brought up Kimmel, why did I bring it up? Because he works at Disney.

And by the way, most of y'all out there speculate about Disney. I have worked for Disney for 23 years. You're guessing. I know. And I'm an on-air talent under the Disney umbrella. Who knows? ABC has local affiliates like Nextstar and Sinclair with tens of stations around the country,

soon to be hundreds. If not there already, that can pile over 22% of the television market. Late nights already losing money across the board, across the business. and the local affiliates ultimately are going to raise help because of the monologue that Jimmy Kimmel gave that particular moment. Your ABC, you know it.

They yank you from the air, as everybody point to figure at ABC. ABC brought Jimmy Kimmel back last night. The next star, the St. Clair, in places like St. Louis, New Orleans, and beyond. Is he seen there? Didn't he acknowledge in his opening monologue that 22, Senator Marcus, if not more, are not airing his show? You think that equates to less money or more money. And if it equates to less money, how are people going to get paid?

See, we want to chirp. We want to talk. We don't want to look at what the situation truly, truly is and how to strategize to maneuver our way through it. Instead of bitching and moaning all the time, how about folks standing up and strategizing so the Dems can win the midterms? And the Dems could have somebody to go up against

a J.D. Vance, a Marco Rubio, or de I say, a governor DeSantis in Florida come 2028, assuming Trump doesn't circumvent the 22nd Amendment and tries to run for a third term. But far be it for Stephen A to bring that up and to say, let's talk about strategy. Instead, everybody wants to complain and just complain. Trump don't care. He's going to do what he's going to do. What are you going to do? Stephen A is saying that

So he said a lot So Stephen A is saying that What he was talking about was not capitulating So this is what we're going to do real quick I'm going to respond to it But let's play what Stephen A said initially Again It wasn't in the clip

That went out But it was in the show Let's play what Stephen A said initially again Donnie play Not what he was on with Lord Coats But the initial thing that he said about Jimmy Kimmel And all that play that again. My only issue

with Jimmy Kimmel and this whole brouhaha he finds himself inflamed with. It's not that oh my God you can't say a joke I am incredibly alarmed by what appears to be our First Amendment right to being attacked this is what I do for a living I don't like that

but you know he's coming and you know part of the reason why is to get back at everybody who tried to take them down. They didn't try to keep them out of the White House, and that was it. They tried to throw them in prison. The man is coming, and you have to adjust accordingly. Next star has to adjust.

All these broadcast corporations have to adjust. Madison Avenue has to adjust. Wall Street has to adjust. Corporate America has to adjust. China's had to adjust. Mexico has had to adjust. France, England, Germany. everybody has to make an adjustment.

It's the real world. I don't like it. I'm alarmed by it. I'm scared of it. But I have to march forward. As do all of you. That's what I was saying about Jimmy Kimmel. That's what I'd say about Stephen Colbert or anybody else.

Part of winning the game is knowing the game you're playing and adjusting accordingly to ensure that when all is said and done, you come out on top. Okay, so let's talk about two different things. In his response to me, Stephen A. Smith talked about the fact that I said that King and X and Evers and all of those people did not act accordingly.

What I said was that they met a moment. And let me explain to people what I'm talking about there. Is everything that Stephen A. Smith said that they did if you're talking about the Montgomery bus boycott, which he referenced when he was talking about Rosa Parks, that was intention to be disruptive. The intention there was to shut down the bus system of Montgomery because black people couldn't ride the bus.

So their intention there was to be disruptive. That's the intention. Malcolm X's intent. The strategy was to be. disruptive, not covertly disruptive, outwardly disruptive. Look into the video scope. Tell America about itself. On the backside, have economic and social and cultural capital with your people that you can fall back on

with the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Be intentionally and overtly disruptive. But what they could fall back on was the fact that if they weren't going to ride the bus to work, then they would carpool, they would walk, they would ride bikes, whether or not we're marching across the bridge, we're disrupting things overtly so people can see that we are standing up to the times that we are in. That's what we're doing. We are protecting each other by our organizing. We're protecting each other by how we're showing up for one another. That's what we're doing.

We're not in any way not being loud, obvious, and directly confrontational with the power systems that are trying to keep us down. We are not snaking around the drain of white supremacy. We're ripping the plumbing out is what we're doing. But when we're organizing, we're organizing to protect each other to make sure that you can still get to work, to make sure that you get bailed out of jail. to make sure that when you are put through the pain of revolution, that there is a community there, a community there that will protect you. That's how they acted.

That's how they met the moment, which is what I said. That's what they did. There's no way to look at what Stephen A's just said when we played it and say that that's what he was talking about. There's just no way to do that. And the reason why we interpreted it like that and Laura Colt interpreted it like that

and everybody else, including some of the people that Stephen A. Smith works with. I know people too, brother. The reason why they didn't interpret it like that is because that's not what you said. That he didn't say that at all. And by the way, had he meant that, then he should have been more clear.

Because I didn't hear any way that free speech or any of those things should be, I didn't hear any strategy from Stephen A. Smith in combating the president in his wrath and his subversion of the First Amendment. I didn't hear him say, this is what you need to do. I didn't hear him say, this is how we get, I didn't hear any of that. I heard what a lot of other people heard was the president is mad. He's not just mad at the people on the left here.

He's not just mad at the political establishment here or rhinos. He's mad at all these other types of countries and react, adjust, and comport yourself accordingly. To me, I'm going to give him a little bit, okay? I'm going to give him a little bit from that clip, what he said on his new show. Move accordingly. Okay. Open to interpretation, right? Then you go on Laura Coates Show.

And I think this is the missing link. So when I heard his response to you, I thought, nah, you don't get to do that. Because what Laura Coats brilliantly did was made you clarify what operate accordingly meant. She specifically asked you. She said, now, wait a minute. Does that mean I'm not going to lay down and take it? I'm not going to lay down and acquiesce. And she said, or do you?

mean I'm not to move under the radar. And then then she goes on to say, because this is who you've always, I've known you to be throughout your career. You're unapologetic. You don't hold any punches. And then she says, is this different? And his answer was, yes. Play it.

I am fair and balanced. There's no misinterpreting what you meant. Donnie? For certain severe critics of him, the man is coming. He's not playing around. He's unapologetic about the retribution he's willing to exact against anybody. He deems harmful to his ego, his psyche, his presidency in his own, in his own way that he may choose to materialize it. But what does that mean then?

Hold on. Hold on you know, but you said know this and operate accordingly. Describe, though, because when you say operate accordingly, you can on the one hand, know this. And the response can be, and I'm not going to lay down and take it. I'm not going to stand aside and allow and acquiesce. The other side is move accordingly sort of under the radar in some way. Where do you, how do you defining operate accordingly? Because I know from just hearing you and following your whole career,

you are somebody who's been unapologetic about speaking your mind, having even unpopular opinions and not pulling any punches. So is this different than that? That's true. Yeah, because I'm fair. balanced. I'm not one-sided and I'm not directing my eye at one individual consistently since 2015.

That's not the kind of behavior I choose to engage in. Even people that I don't like, that I've been on the record stating I don't like, I still remain fair and balanced. When they deserve to be complimented, I say so. I don't avoid complimenting them just because I may not like them. And when they deserve to be criticized, I don't hesitate to do so.

If you were going to say it, you would have said it. She specifically asked you, You would have said it right then and there. And you go into this whole other diatribe about fair imbalance. Now if you want to come back, it feels like you're trying to correct what you said before. I'm going to say two things. And these are actually things that are not about the issue.

These are directed definitely to Stephen A. Smith. What are you going to do? All of this moving under the radar, we're doing that. Like, that's something that we're doing. We're talking to people. We're getting out there and organizing. with people. Not with every group that's asked me to organize. There are people that have asked me to come to stuff and I'd be like, no, that's not for me. But there are other times that we are doing

work. We are doing work with some groups to get people on this podcast to talk about things. Like, we're having these conversations. We're doing this stuff. And a lot of times, those people don't want to sit on this podcast, look into a camera and have a conversation about it. They don't want to do that because it puts them in harm's way. A lot of times what they say is Van, Rachel, Donnie, Ashley, can you talk about this? Can you try to discuss this? And we do it to the best of our ability. Ain't no $100 million in that. It's not worth $100 million. There's not, that's not, that's not what's in that. And it's not charity either. It's the interest of a specific political thrust that you are into. Nobody needs to be lying.

or have a gold medal put around their net. We're literally just doing what we can do. Like we're doing what we can do. That's what we're doing. We're not, like, ain't nobody like, ain't no lead, no marches, no Negroes. Nobody needs to build no statues. We're doing what we can do.

But there are people who are doing this. There are people who are in their spare time when they can. They are trying to be interested in furthering a conversation about the conditions of people in this. country, there are people that are doing that. They're doing it all the time. And when we get on the podcast or get in front of the mic, we're not fucking whining.

How dare you? Ain't nobody whining. I'm talking to you about what they're talking to me about. And I'm talking to you about what they're talking to me about because they asked me to. They told me to talk to you. They told me, Van, they don't listen to us. They told me, Van, they can't hear us.

But for whatever reason, because you one day at one place, in one instance, talk to a fucking rapper that lost his fucking mind, they might listen to you. Will you speak with us? And I say, yeah, I'm a speak if I can. If I can get it out in a way that I'm going to talk for you. I'm a be, yeah, I'll do that. I'm going to do that for you. We're not going to always agree.

We're not going to always be on the same page. But if you ask me for a hand, I'm going to say, yeah, brother, yeah, so let's get to it. And I'm a fail. I'm going to fail sometimes. I'm toxic and all fucked up. And I got the same wiring that everybody else has. No different. No different.

So I'm going to fuck up. I'm going to get it wrong. But if anybody is on here thinking that I want to wind my way, no. I don't want to whine. I'm talking to people that tell me, man, we need somebody to talk. If you don't believe me, go ask them. What are you going to do?

I will end it in saying this. This entire thing. A lot of people might be asking, why is this important? Like, why is this back and forth? Why does this even matter? Because we're defining intentionality here. We're defining what it means in this moment to be who we are.

and that definition is going to be different to some people. To me, I'm going to very clearly define what it is that I'm talking about. What I'm saying is there is a portion of American power right now that is very overtly ripping into the systems, the norms, and the culture of the country and grabbing power. You can't take your power back in secret. or in silence. It's impossible.

It's never been done. It never will be done. The people that started this fucking country didn't do it that way. They said, you don't let us vote. We'll take your tea. We'll throw it in the fucking harbor. Come get it.

That's what they said. And then they put something on the line in order to assert themselves and all of the slave-owning fat cat hypocritical ways that they were. They said our freedom is worth a fight.

However that fight plays out, our freedom is worth a fight. And I am very directly and unambiguously saying that to you guys. I'm saying your freedom is worth a fight. And just like I told you on the last podcast, everybody has different jobs. Everyone, if you are not out in the street, don't feel bad that you're not out in the street. Because you can support those who are. If you feel bad that you don't have a big, ginormous platform, don't feel bad about that.

You can support those who are, or you can start your platform and draw people in. If you feel bad that you're not running for office, that you're not out there, but don't feel bad, just vote. You can do small things to be a part of change, small things. But the one thing that you can do, that's the easiest thing to do,

is just say no. Want some Nancy Reagan shit. Just say no. Just say violation of due process? No. Just say violation of the First Amendment. No. Just say violation of people's rights

and illable rights in this country. No. No. We're not for it. We're not with it. We're not supporting it. Quick story here. quick story. Because maybe Stephen A. Smith doesn't know this.

I had a run-in with Theo Vaughn, not a run-in, like a conversation. I'll tell you how this conversation went. It wasn't a run-in. I want to describe it as being like being acrimonious. This is what happened. Theo Vaughn, when he's in town,

I've seen him in LA before. He works out at the same Equinox that I work out at. Nice guy. When I say nice guy, I mean legitimately nice guy. Everybody at the gym walks around say hi, he'll talk to you. Nice guy.

Nice guy. You could see why his charisma works on his podcast. A couple weeks ago, me and my trainer, the great James, are working out. Theo Vaughn is in the gym. James introduces me to Theo Vaughan. They used to work out together when Theo Vaughan was a member at the L.A. Equinox. Theo is from Baton Rouge, or Nivoreau. Thereabouts there.

Him and I talk. We talk about LSU. We're the same age. Literally the same graduating class there in Baton Rouge. We talk about LSU. We talk about Mandeville. We talk about Southern. We talk about all of these different things.

We have a very cordial back and forth. Like we're chirping it up. Theo leaves. Wals away. I look at James and I go. And James goes, what? I go, I have to say something to him. And he's like, what is?

I got to say something to him. I was like, I don't want to blow at the gym, but I got to say something to him. And James is like, we have to say something to him about. So I walk over to Theo. And I say, hey, I've been pretty mad and disappointed at you. And all the podcasters like you, the guys that supported Donald Trump and now look where we're at.

I've been pretty upset about that. A lot of people been upset about it. Theo looks at me and he goes, yeah, I didn't know he was going to be like that. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's kind of what upset us is that he's being exactly the way he said he was going to be. Me and Theo face to face have a small conversation back and forth. A small conversation back and forth about that. He then leaves. But in that moment, I'll tell you guys why I did that.

Two reasons. One, if I'm going to be critical of you when you're not around, if I see you, I'm going to have to address that criticism with you. That's the first thing. Number two, any disagreement that you have with someone or any question that you have with someone does not have to be delivered in fiery and direct confrontational antagonizing type of shit. you can just look at somebody and say, I've been disappointed in you what you did was wrong. But if you get the chance to have that conversation with somebody, you should take it.

If you get the chance to have the conversation with someone, you need to take it. You need to be a record scratcher. When everybody else is part in, you need to pull the needle off the record and be like, hey, this is not what we're supposed to be doing. at this time right now there is no go along there's no get along there can be disagreements there will be people that are to the left of you there are people that will be to the right of you but what you should be talking about needs to be undergirded with a central ethos and that ethos is we are about overtly dismantling systems that threaten our freedom that's what we're doing we can talk about how we do it.

We can talk about what freedom is to us. We can talk about all of that. But we need to overtly and directly say we are dismantling systems that threaten our freedom. And it's not time to speak ambiguously about what it means to fight that. If you got some ideas, share them with us. If you know what to do, talk to us about it.

If not, what you're doing is you're interviewing people on your place, platform for the sake of commerce, and that's okay too. But if you're talking to somebody that you feel like it's not trying to figure it out, you're not talking to me and you're not talking to my people. So hopefully we'll get a chance to hash it out. If not, we could keep doing this because... No, you said you're done.

What you mean? What do you keep doing this? It's true. You're right. Hey, hey, you know what? You know what I realized while I was doing all of this stuff? I realize that there's only one group of people that I can't stand up to.

Who? Black ladies. Oh. You stand up to me all the time. That's different. That's different. Because you like family. So like, because you're like family,

it's easier. Because, like, I can stand up to my sister, right? I can stand up to Ebony. Not even sometimes I stand up to her. Sometimes I attack. antagonizer on purpose. A lot. But wait, which black women do you not stand up to?

Black ladies, when they're in black ladiness, it's hard for me to stand up to them. Like, I start pandering. You know how you can tell when I'm pandering to black women? How? I start using the word new being. I've never heard you use it. So again, yeah, you don't do it to me, right?

I don't do it to you. Let's say I say something and then black ladies get mad. They get mad at me. I immediately, Newbian, queen, sister. I would hate that. Euphrates, Nigeria, Ghana, Benin, Togo. Like, we are together. Like, that's how you know I'm pandering when I start going to Timbuktu.

When I start going to them places like that, I'm like trying to say, hey, mother of the earth, queen of the stars, I apologize to you. That's the only time. Other than that, I'm good at saying enough for myself. But with black ladies, no, I get Newbian. get real new being. I want to see it. You want to see me get new?

I'm going to see pander. I haven't seen it. You haven't seen me pander to black women? Never? At least I don't remember. You think I should do more pander into black women? No. Oh, you don't like it.

What's a question? What's a difference in when does something become a pander? Like, when are you? so when are you just being respectful, even deferential, even, like, when does something move past? I'm asking you as a black woman. When it becomes condescending, I don't know why, but when I hear you say pander, it makes it feel like it's condescending in a way instead of out of respect. Like, I don't need you to pander, it feels like babying to me, just talk to me, right? Like, I don't need you to be a certain kind of way with me, just be.

Yes, be respectful. Yes, have a conversation. But like, don't. But what if I was like giving a speech? And I was like, you know, I'm talking to Black America. And I was like, the only group in Black America that we need to make sure we protect, make sure we uplift, uphold,

Nubian, Queens, or the desert, or the now of Timbuck. to Ethiopia, the Yuba, Igbo, women that we have been a part of the legacy of them walking on water through the stars.

You would never say that. What? Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. You would never say that. Your first 10 words were great. Wait, wait. You would never say this. You would never say this.

So the first 10 words are not a pandered. Those are not a panda. No, no. But once you hit Nubian and walk across the, and part the word. Red Sea or whatever you were saying. No, enough. Nile River, whatever you say.

Let it go. Have you ever heard something and thought that it was a panda? Have you ever heard someone? I'm sure. I'm sure. Yes. Do you mind the pander? Does the pander bother you? I don't want to feel like your babying me or you're talking to me a certain way. Like you feel like you need to be delicate with me.

Unless the situation calls for it, right? Like there's situations they may call for it, but otherwise don't. Just talk to me. Um, speaking of that, Respecting. Respect. It's funny because a lot of, a lot of niggas think that respect is a pander. That's a, see, that's a problem.

That's so funny. Why don't the two and two go, yeah, like, that's a. Sometimes they think respect is a pander. Sometimes they go, like, you'll go, hey man, don't call her a bitch. But you know what's funny? This niggott's, they, if you said that. This niggas say, don't call a bitch a bitch. Niggin, what the fuck is wrong with you?

If you said that to man, they wouldn't, it would be, it would be totally different. They wouldn't think that, right? Because it's only specifically if they laugh at that when it comes to a woman. With a man, they would have no problem with respect it. Those men that you're talking about, not all men. I'm not going to generalize. Dudes who laugh at. I'm going to do one pander a month.

And I'm going to try to see if you can detect when I'm pandering. Pander detector. Well, you've already given me some clues as to how you pander. Queen. I mean, not Queen. Queen is cool, but when I start getting into the direct connection to, you know, The Motherland. What's the next topic?

What are we talking about? Donnie, let's talk about Tennessee State. Oh, yeah, let's do that. A group known as Fearless Debaters, they showed up at Tennessee State's campus without notice with filming equipment, maga hats and signs. Signs read stuff like D.E.I. It should be illegal and deport all illegal. Eagles now. According to the group, TSU was the first HBCU on their fearless tour, which they're

saying is going to bring honest conversation and open debate back to America's college campuses. But TSU released a statement. Any demonstration or protest activity requires advance approval and permitting, which prompted TSU police and staff to escort the fearless debaters off of campus. Do y'all see these videos? I saw him, man. Yeah. Yeah. We saw the videos. Yeah, man. Okay, here's my question to you. We saw the videos.

Donnie bladed out so well of this group that started right after the killing of Charlie Kurt. They're on a tour. They've been to several campuses, right? First, HBCU campus. They've been to several campuses. Have you heard of them? No. Say, right?

How do they change it up? How do they get attention? Right? They create chaos. They go to a place that they weren't invited to. They did not have permission to. And they set up shop. I've seen two thoughts on this, schools of thought.

There are some people who love the response from the TSU students. Love that they weren't having it. They were still in posters. They were, you know, standing up to these guys. And then I saw a school of thought that was like, wish they wouldn't have given them that attention and just ignored them because that's exactly what they came for. I'm interested,

and maybe you don't think, you don't subscribe to either one of them, but I'm interested as to what you think. I think a couple of things. One, stop annoying us, man. Get off our dick. Harassing. That's full on harassment.

Hey, get off our dick. That's how I feel. Get off our dick. Full on. Stop, stop dick riding. This is a form of dick riding. What these guys did, the feel is debated.

they are actually the fearless dick get off our dick, leave us alone. Like, leave us alone, get off our dick. Like, they're going to school. First of all, you didn't even have your paperwork, right? You can get your permits, do all of that stuff. The next time these thugs should be arrested. I can't believe these stugs would show up on a school

where kids are trying to go and get their education and try to disrupt the American educational system by setting up tables and going through all of this. These thugs who can't even think and read straight enough to be able to fill out the required paperwork in order to do this type of thing. That's what the real question. They broke the rules. They broke the rules.

They should be arrested. That's the first thing. Number one, get your shit straight. Secondly, you never know the consequences of dick ride. Get off our dick. Leave us alone. Think we stupid? You're going in there to rob people up.

What do you want me to say about their reaction? What do you want me to say? It's not the right time for this. And everybody has the right to emotion. I watched a thousand some white people rush the capital of the United States of America. These are grown people with 401Ks, kids. One of the guys that runs a Baton Rouge grocery chain.

These are business owners, fully formed brains. I watch these people run. run into the capital. If you think I'm about to take a half second to make a moral judgment on a bunch of college kids who are being purposefully and intentionally antagonized by a group of white guys, you think I'm about to give this one moral second of my brain? You're wrong. I've lost the ability. It's out. Once that happened and all of those people got pardoned, no, stop dick riding. Leave us alone. We know you're fucking with us. We know you're fucking with us. Leave us alone. Leave us the

fuck alone. How's that? It's not the right time to be fucking around. It's never the, it's not the right, it's not even just because of what the state of the country. It's just period. Like, stop harassing us. Stop harassing us. That's literally what I mean, you know exactly what you're doing and the purpose

for it was so you could be sitting on television at News Nation. You could be sitting on, covered on television at Fox News, using us to create chaos to what they were calling race riots to basically, it was just a moment again for them to be racist. And this is exactly what I asked Ryan about. I said to Ryan, I don't remember specifically Ryan Grimm last week.

I don't remember specifically how I worded the question, but I talked about the legacy of Charlie Kirk and if you were basically going to have imitators and copycats. And so, you know, it's one thing to praise free speech and everybody and people have the right to. free speech and all of that, right? But it's another thing when you're using the opportunity to demean, dehumanize, and incite people to act in a racist way. That is what these guys are. They just started this. They're on a tour. They were getting absolutely no attention. So what do they do? They go and antagonize black people. And this is a byproduct from that type of, from the prove me wrong stance. You got to.

not people doing it. I'll hear Roe. They're the ones who are creating the riot. Not black people. They're basically standing up for themselves and saying, hey, get off our campus. You're not supposed to be here. But they're using it to fuel the fire and to add to the race wars.

And so when I brought to you the two questions about which one would it rather be, I don't even know how to answer because I wouldn't dare tell students who feel they are being harassed to just ignore them. I wouldn't dare. I say respond how you want to respond. If you saw them on campus and you wanted to ignore them, great. If you saw them in campus and you wanted to tell them to get the fuck out, by all means, that's free speech as well. Yeah, break out. Like, I'm going to tell everybody to consider your personal freedom and all of that stuff while you're doing stuff.

I'm always going to tell people to make sure that you consider not just the now, but the next week and all of that. I'm always said, break out, break out, get out. Break out. Like, it just break out. I just want to, I want it. people to consider this world. What if you stop fucking with us? Just think about that.

Think about a world. Like I want to do like a movie trailer. Imagine a world where you didn't fuck over black people. Stop fucking with us. Well, what they do, Van, they always want to say we're talking about race. They're always, you bring race into it. You make everything about race.

No, actually, you guys do. You will not leave us alone. If there was a world where they didn't do that, what on earth would they do? I don't know. Look, if, how about this? You want to have all of these different battle of ideas and all of that stuff.

Go, set it up. But anyone that wants to come engage you in ideas, I think that's great. I don't mind it ever at any time ever where someone in good faith wants to have a conversation about something. but you came with signs and hats and all of that trying to antagonize people. We're not stupid. I know the people that follow you and think that this is cool.

It's not stupid. It's not whatever. I don't. It is leave black people alone. Leave them alone. These kids are trying to go to school. It's so funny. Yeah.

It's like this is the funny thing about it. It, they went to a college. They went to a place where, and this is kind of the conundrum. They went to a place where, quote, unquote, the kids are doing it the right way. They're going to be educated. Whatever odds they had to be,

to be in college, to pay for it, to go to school, they're there. These are people that are thinking about their futures, their goals, their dreams, they're on a college campus. and what you are doing is interrupting their ascension. And because of that, you got a paper cup thrown at your car. Come on, man, you're embarrassing your ancestors.

Embarrassing your ancestors. They are. You know why they're embarrassing their ancestors? I say this all the time. Don't half-step it. Don't, to the people that want to do stuff like this, don't embarrass your ancestors. Your ancestors didn't engage in hundreds of years of ruthless slavery,

segregation and Jim Crow for you to kind of be racist. Fuck that. You're better than that. Go to the campus and just break out the N-word. Put the N-word on the signs. Stop fucking hiding your hands. Just go for it. It's just...

I'm serious, man. I just am so frustrated with the whole car. I'm with you. I agree with everything you say. You're right. Just be it. I'm all. like that. If you want to be racist, just be full-blown racist so we know how to handle you

accordingly. But please also stop acting like and hiding behind the First Amendment that you're just out here trying to have conversation or incite debate when the reality is you just want to be a fucking star. That's it. You want your name out there. You don't care about the cause. You don't care about the issues you're talking about. You are trying to be the next superstar in your group of people in your community, in your conservative world. And we're not here for it. We're also not trying to make you superstars. That's the other thing I just want to say.

I don't want to add to it. Donnie, let's get to Jimmy. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you.

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Jimmy Kimmel Live returned. This was Tuesday, and they averaged 6.2 million viewers in that first airing. And that's according to preliminary figures from Nelson. They're going to get more updated numbers shortly. And then Next Star and Sinclair, Power Company, said that the show that, they said before the show, that they'd continue to preempt it across the affiliates that they own. And then the YouTube video of the monologue of the opening show has drawn more than 15 million views in as Jimmy Kimmel's highest viewed monologue. Donald Trump responded. He said, I can't believe ABC fake news gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back.

The White House was told by ABC that his show was canceled. The White House was told by ABC. We don't know if that's true. But yes, but keep it, I believe it. Something happened between then and now because his audience is gone and his talent was never there. Why would they want someone back who does so poorly who's not funny and who puts the network in jeopardy by playing 99% positive Democrat garbage? He is yet another arm of the DNC. And to the best of my knowledge, that would be a major illegal campaign contribution.

Think about that. Think about that sentence. right there. Come back to that. I think we're going to test out ABC on this. Let's see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me $6 million, $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative. A true bunch of losers. Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad ratings. Your thoughts on what the president had to say in response to Jimmy's triumphant return? Well, the last sentence absolutely turned out to not be true, seeing that he had 6.2 million viewers. 15 million on YouTube and counting.

I had to watch it on YouTube. I was in Nashville on Wednesday. Couldn't watch it live. Couldn't get it. I was say that I've been more than ever, you know, I'm not one to be in my DMs and going back in force of people. Lately I have been with everything that's been happening this month.

What was that? You love that. You've been talking about you at least once in the last five shows, You've talked about the battles that you're fighting with the people. That's what I'm saying this month. And I'm exhausted. I don't know how you used to do it all the time.

But one of the things I'm seeing is the, I guess I just have like a lot of conservative people that follow me or somebody sends it to them and then they want to come at me. But one of this, one of the conversations is about the government's involvement with ABC and enforcing their hand and making threats. and a lot of the people that I've talked to in regards to the subject are like, the government's not involved. One person said to me, that would require collusion. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, they're flat out saying it. You're hearing from the FCC, the threats. You're hearing from Trump.

And this is just another thing to add to it that Trump is basically threatening ABC, Disney, and saying exactly what it is that he's going to do. The government is absolutely trying to do. to be involved with what is played on the airways and hiding under the public interest. This is all tied together. All tied together. I was actually waiting for Trump's response on this.

I was too. So remember when we talked about organizations that do terrible things and claiming responsibility for them? What I'm really interested to see now is Donald Trump has claimed responsibility for Jimmy being off of his show. Right. He's claimed responsibility for it.

This is what we wanted. I can't believe it didn't go our way. We're going to go further. Part of this game, look, I understand what people are going to say. The accountability game, the you're a hypocrite game, it doesn't work that much anymore because the bar is in hell, right? Because you can't. It'll care.

Like once you pardon all of the January 6 riders, then what, what am I said it, right? But just for the sake of it, anyone who said that the president and the FCC weren't together in order to go after a political critic of theirs, just remind them that the president just said that he was. Just remind them of that. Now, as Jimmy said in his monologue, there were a lot of conservative voices. that maybe it was out of sense of self-preservation or maybe for some political consistency did come out and say that this was too far.

This is a clear loss for Trump's grab of power centralized in the executive. Sure, sure. A clear loss for that. That's a big L. However, Donald Trump is clear that he is an authoritarian. He's clear. He's being clear here.

So anybody that spins or lives in the lies or the laundering of his reputation, this is clear evidence and you always have to index things like this. Not that it'll make a difference in their argument, but just when we're talking about who was on the side of authoritarianism, who was on the side of the president being able to pick

who gets to speak in America. We have clear evidence here that the president, that anyone who doesn't read this in the way, that they're wrong. Okay, cool. I want to ask you something. there is a narrative that's come out of this from a lot of people that are wondering why Joy Ann Reed, Tiffany Cross,

even Colin Kaepernick, people like that, didn't get this same type of support seeing this all around when they were at war with big corporate interests who wanted to silence them. Joanne Reed was fired from her show. Tiffany Cross was fired from her show. Obviously Colin Kaepernick was silenced and kicked out of the NFL, never to return.

And they're wondering whether the differences in the Kimmel situation, why was this so successful and why the Joanne Reed's and Tiffany crosses and Colin Kaepernick didn't get that same type of support. Do you see any through line between these two situations?

Well, I mean, you just saved all black people one. But I think, but the, but the, my first thought was did Stephen Colbert get it? And I, of course, you asked me first, I'm like, well, they're black. Obviously, you know, people were not paying. It's going to be hard pressed for you to find non-black people to be as angry about what's happening to black people that are front of camera

in the media. But Stephen Colbert, it was like, yeah, people were upset about it. But I think this is what I will say is in through line. Obviously, the black part of it. I'm not going to ignore that. But what I think the reason Stephen Colbert, people were upset, just like they were, at least black people with Joy Ann Reed and Tiffany Cross as well, is that they were able, networks and decision makers were able to hide behind the, they don't have the ratings. People aren't watching. It costs too much money. They were able to hide behind that, I feel like. Whereas with Kimmel, they couldn't necessarily use that because of, because not just of how he was fired, but, well, no, it is because

of how he was fired, the tie of Brendan Carr coming out. That's the difference. If Britton Carr had not said what he said on Benny Johnson's podcast, they could have said, well, his ratings aren't doing as well, well, we're downsizing, whatever it may be, in the same way they did with him. But because of the direct attack and Brennan Carr's trying to walk it back now, right? Oh, that's not what I meant. That's the dims, taking it out of proportion, totally blames it on the left.

Brennan Carr had done what he did. I think Jimmy Kimmel might have been a little bit. It would have been different. I agree. I think that whereas two prominent black women, prominent black women losing their shows in the time frame that it happened, Tiffany was like last year or two years ago and Joy was just recently, this year, two prominent black women losing their shows on that network should make

people ask questions about MSNBC about what's happening at the top of MSNBC. Just why? You know, in a space where black ladies, a lot of times aren't allowed, Nubian queens, aren't allowed to

exist and thrive in those spaces, right? To have two of them, prominent ones, lose their jobs in X amount of time. Everyone should be like, what's going on? Like, that's true.

Let's also not remember that, forget that the president of MSNBC was a black woman. Black woman who also, who also stepped down at the time of January. Right. That's a little. Oh, okay. No. There are people that are going to say there's some things going on behind the scenes there. Yeah, yeah.

I know what you mean. I don't know. Yeah. I'm not. I'm looking. Okay. Okay. All right. There's some things going on behind the scene there.

Okay. Okay. So I'm saying. Some things going on behind the scenes there. but what I will say is that of course there's investigation that needs to happen here I think this one was flagrant

because of Brendan Carr that's it not even to belabor it this one was flagrant because of Brendan Carr Brendan Carr like went on there and said you know Silverer-A-led he literally went on there

and did the Pablo Escobar joint and so it was so egregious so flagrant that people got into it And they automatically went. It's one thing. And this is another way of a very, it's something that's insidious,

particularly about the political, the racial, the racial, socio-political arm of this. This is always layered. And this is the mistake that was made by Brendan Carr. They didn't layer this right. Right.

They didn't, normally the way this is done is with a pill pocket. You know, you take the pill, you put it inside of the deal, you give it to your dog, dog eats it and then they get whatever is out of it. Normally they do that. Normally they say, it's actually about this when it's really about this. It's actually about this when it's really about

this. He was very direct in the fact that they had a political enemy on the air, whatever reason, and they wanted to get that enemy off the air. Set it too straight out and gave people no ambiguity about it and you'd have to be a moron to believe that he meant anything other than what he explicitly said. So that was the mistake. I will still say though, that the question about those three individuals and about people like that, we have to keep asking

and interrogating that question because maybe if we had said we are going to mobilize, we are going to stop watching the NFL, we are going to stop watching this, we're all going to stop. Maybe if we had more solidarity,

we would have been able to make differences in those other situations. Maybe if we'd have been able to do that, we'd be able to get some wins, and it's important to get wins. I want everybody to, just seriously, Jimmy being back on the air is a triumph. I'm gonna do the Kaepernick thing again,

and I'm sorry. I apologize. New being. Just come on with it. What is it that you hear the say? I've been in the knee, Rachel, New being. Okay?

What is it? I want people to think about this and just transport yourself to a place that I'm about to take you. Think about what it meant for Jimmy Kimmel to be back on the air. What it meant for Jimmy Kimmel to be back on the air was that the force that was trying to take Jimmy Kimmel off of the air was beaten by the will of people. That signals, this is all capitalism, guys. this is all Disney.

This is all stuff. But it signaled that people beat tyranny. Jimmy, who had an opinion, then it was kicked off the air, that people got together and said, no, you can't do that. And they had to bend the knee to you. Now, don't be, don't,

now, I want you to think about a world where Colin Kaepernick, runs back out on the NFL field. Think about what it would have meant to be able to say they tried to take his career and they couldn't do it.

That we got busy enough to where his career was saved by the people. Can I ask you a question? I'm dying to hear it. Do you go, I know you believe, obviously everything that Kaepernick stood for. I actually do too, even though I get a bad rap about that.

But do you feel like you keep going back to it because you feel bad that you started watching the NFL? I love this question. When I tell you, this is a great question, because I think this is a part of it. Fantastic question. Because I think there is some shame that people have. I think, and this is the part of it,

and I actually told Nesedis, and I wish that, Colin Kaepernick and Nessa were in more conversation with us. I wish we heard from them more. I wish we were able to talk to them more. I wish there was more community that we felt and we shared with them. I wish that sometimes the things that I talk to them about, there are, I'm rarely ever critical of them, but I will say, I have to share that I do think that there, that you

have to endeavor into community with people. you have to make people believe that you are a part of what it is that they're doing. They've stood up and sacrificed a shit ton. That's true. But it can't be me or somebody else talking about the condition of how things are going. At a certain point, people have to feel the vulnerability and the connection with you in order to feel like what's happening to you is happening to them. And the thing with Jimmy Kimmel is that Jimmy Kimmel is in people's homes every single day.

And so they feel when this is, they feel like this is happening to somebody that they know, right? Yeah. Because of the way he communicates and all of that stuff. And they, okay, cool, all of that. But you're part of it, the part that you just named. I think that's a part of it for a lot of people. I think a lot of people in 2018 or 2017 or whatever it was,

there was a cultural righteousness and it was on trend almost to be like, fuck the NFL. we don't want to do this, but it was also hard. It was a hard thing to do because they own a whole day of the week. I remember, it's so funny. One time,

it was a friend of mine who was like a party promoter. I tried to get a party started because there's the day parties that happened in L.A. It was a beauty and Essex day party that happened in L.A. And it was the best day party in the history of L.A. I don't know what nobody says. It was fantastic.

shout out to the other ones, but the beauty of that six one was the best one ever. And I was like, you know what should happen? We should, I just floated it. I didn't really, as long as it should happen, we should do a day party. We should continue to day party throughout the NFL season. Normally, that's going to stop when the NFL comes back because you can't compete with the NFL. Just one of the reasons why. It's also a summer thing.

But we should continue to day party when the NFL is back. We should give people something to do other than the NFL. And I didn't say this and take this to anybody like it was a big deal. I just threw the idea. out there to people. And people that understand how humans move knew that as soon as the NFL came back,

people weren't going to want to move on Sundays. They weren't going to want to move. It's a whole thing. They've been doing this since they were 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years old, right? It's a hard thing to break. There are, I think, there is a part of this. The reaction to the Kaepernick thing

is people who, at least at first, We're happy that they didn't have to do it anymore. And part of the way that they take it out on that family is because they feel like off the hook. There's a little bit of shame there. There's a little bit of shame from some people, not everyone. And I think people feel shame that like it wasn't something that we could keep doing. So they looked for reasons why they were wrong, why they went about it the wrong way, why I couldn't have been different, all that. I don't feel that way.

I don't watch a shit ton of NFL. It's forever changed, right? I don't look at it that way, but I do understand that sentiment. I do understand people that both can't let it go because of the guilt that they feel and also want to look for reasons that they went about it the wrong way

in order to make their return to the NFL feel a little bit better. And I think that's kind of the category that you fall in. Oh, we're out. But I get it. But honestly, though, seriously? I really thought about that.

I was like, see, see, I participated in the Kaepernick question in the dialogue. It really did make me think. I'm like, hmm. And I directed the question of you, but it really could be just people in general. Partably. About how they handled the situation. Because we all, I even started out strong. Yeah.

It was. And then, you know, people came along. We're not going to get the whole thing. I told you you had to do it in a morning and do it no more. It's fine. It is, is. but it became harder for me though and he got settlement

I mean I was already back watching it but I'm just saying this is where this is where we this is where we part ways but we don't because I've no because I always say why do you want to go back in when you accuse them of something

which I agree but which I believe is true you got paid from that right like they had to pay you because you had enough evidence to show to prove exactly the thing that you were asserting. They pay you and that, then you do like stuff about how it's slavery and all

these things and you want to go back. It's just a question I will forever have and I will never understand it because I'm not a football player. I've never played in the NFL. It has never been what I the dream that I've always wanted to do, my well-being. It's never been that. So I can't even, it's just

the question I have. I'll never fully understand it. Yeah. So I did the same thing on TMZ when the settlement came. We We talked about this before. We're going back over shit. But I'll say this, though, this goes back to what I was talking about before.

Now, there are probably parts of that settlement that probably can't be discussed because it's like... Sure, it's a settlement. It's a settlement, right? So it's probably parts of that settlement that can't be discussed. But there is a part of this that's just strictly about narrative and messaging. It's just about saying, hey, this is a workplace dispute that was settled,

and it doesn't have anything to do with this thing over here. because when people are in between thoughts, they make up their own version of it. I said this before. Some of us have made up a version of this where the settlement was going to destroy the CBA, bring the N.F. The case was going to destroy the CBA,

bring the NFL to its knees, and start a whole new reality in the NFL. The only problem is they never said that. That was what I thought. and what other people thought and what we were kicking around. So when the settlement happened, what was going on?

And I do think a lot of people feel that way. As far as all of the other stuff, the criticizing of the league, the slavery part, you still want to play, all of that stuff. That's the kind of stuff that will come directly out of conversation.

Because when I, sometimes you, like you have situations with people. or you disagree with them on things or it looks like something that they did is exist at cross purposes with itself

and you ask them and it just kind of makes more sense you just go oh okay like why do you want to be a part of a club that doesn't want you this is why this is why I feel

so you know that that's That's kind of the deal there. So before we leave, we have to talk about something real quick. Something's happening here at the office, Rachel. And only you can help us. Spotify? I don't know if it's going to be me.

Only you can help us. I wouldn't know how to, well, go ahead. Only you can help us. So just let people know something here. You know, we have a community here at Spotify. People, we walk around, we talk, we get a bagel, we get a mocha. We, you know, hold then. We talk about the Dodgers.

We have everybody. And all of that. is based on trust here at Spotify slash the ringer and in a major way that trust was broken fractured

maybe never to be never to be fixed until we get to the bottom of this so there's a screening room here at Spotify yeah and in this screening room you ever been inside of it before

yeah we did the thing I have yes I have we did the we did what are we did you people there Yeah, the movie watching. So inside the screen room, there's all kinds of different technology, and there's a PS5 that was in there. Now, when college football 25 came out, we used the PS5, we played it, we screened it,

we had a little PS5 tournament in there, everybody was in there, me, Jome, Deonté, the whole night, everybody was in it. We have fun, PS5. The PS5 is for the ringer. It's for the ringer, Spotify. Okay, that's what the PS5 is for. We use the PS5 for different things. Rachel, the PS5 was stolen.

Well, why wasn't it locked up? Why was it just sitting now? Why you keep it? That's the equivalent of keeping your doors unlocked. Who would just leave a PS5 just out? The PS5 was stolen. Okay. Apparently there's some places

that the PS5 was supposed to be and it wasn't in that place like a gear locker, but the gear locker is not locked up. Who would think that somebody would come and steal the PS5? The PS5 not going to... Times a hard. grow legs and fucking walk away, yet it did. Now listen, a couple of weeks ago,

they were looking for the PS5. And when they were looking for the PS5, you know what I told them? I said, somebody stole it. Somebody stole the fucking PS5. And they were like, who's going to steal the PS5? Actually, it was Jomey. Jomey was the one that was going,

man, who's going to fucking steal the PS5? What the fuck are you talking about? Huh? Who's going to fucking steal the PS5? And I, Mulyon, huh? He kept saying that. And I was like, well, y'all can't find it. Somebody jacked it.

I'm from a place where jackings happened. People steal shit. They jack your shit. Last week, I talked to John and I say, hey, man, what's the update on the PS5? And John says, we bought another one, which lets me know that they have now come to grips with the fact that the last PS5 was stolen. Are there not cameras around? apparently not in working order,

apparently not ones that can stop capers, but let me tell you what's going to happen now over the next couple of months. Just like we were the ones who found out the face of the ringer, we are the only podcast. Oh yeah, start with him. At the ringer Spotify that can find out

what happened to the PS5 of the ringer. Where it went. They have to buy another PS5 so they could do this Fortnite thing and I want to know what happened to the PS5. Everyone's walking around like, oh, it's like, it's not a big deal.

Oh my God, what happened, what happened, what happened. It's not about capitalism. It's not about the fact that the corporation could buy another one. It's about trust. And I want to know because right now I leave my wallet out. I walk around the whole nine. Van, Donnie put it at the bottom.

Van, tough on crime, Lathan. Van Law & Order Lathan. Are they locking this one up? They are. They now put a lock on the thing and now they're locking up the PS5. I'm going to have people come in on this podcast once a month

and we're going to interview them. We're going to interview them about what happened to the PS5. We're going to interview them. I want to know where it went. Let me tell you why I'm not going to be a good partner on this one. You're the prosecutor of the ringer. you're the Kamala Harris or the ringer. I don't know who works there, who doesn't.

Oh, fuck. So where we... Where do I start? I'll be talking to people that'll be like, we don't work at the ringer. Okay, let me tell me you. I would be, I would waste your time. I wouldn't even know. And I'll be honest with you.

I don't know if I could tell the difference between a PS5 and was it a 4, a PS4 that came before it. I don't know. I'm not the one. This is what, this, I'm going to put all the information together. And I'm going to bring it to you. I want everybody, this is the only time I call. This is the only time I'll call for Reddit and everybody to get involved.

Everyone. I want everyone that is a part of Ringer culture to put together a suspects list. Of who you think would be most likely. Are we on it? I told, you know what I told them? I told them a couple of days ago, I would have to be considered a suspect. you would I'm in office all the time

likely which would be great which would be amazing for me to be the one to take it I'm in the office what did you say because no one was suspecting I don't know anybody I don't know what it looks like

oh this is cute I have my own PS5 but I'm here every day I'm the one who called this out I'm the one who started this I'm not saying I'm not a suspect but I need everyone out there to make a suspects list

for what happened to the fucking PS5. Where did it go? It didn't fucking grow legs and walk out of the office. Somebody has it. How long has it been missing? It's like a month almost. Oh, that's it. It's in the win.

Whoever took it sold it. We need to be so checking. Anybody got new jewelry, new shoes. Oh. Oh. You know what I mean? Yeah. A new trip.

Yeah. Took a vacation. Now, I will say that the PS5 is $500, so you're not going to use it. You'd reach off the PS5. Okay, but you could buy something new. Did you see Kamala Harris on Rachel Maddow? No.

Didn't watch it. I didn't look at any of that because I thought we were going to do it all. Yeah, so we didn't get a chance. We were very ambitious about getting through the book. We got stuff to do. We didn't get through the book. We're not doing a Kamala Harris book today. We'll do it on Monday.

I'll be finished with the book by Monday. Kamala Harris was on Rachel Maddow. And I only got two words for it. Everywhere. Not great. But from who? From Kamala? From Kamala?

Not great. Okay. But I'm going to give a caveat with this. The caveat with her not being great on Rachel Maddow is that she's talking about a lot of things and it must be difficult to talk about. When you guys hear bad podcasting, it's normally from people who are trying to ride the fence. if you are blissfully wrong or blissfully right,

it normally makes for good podcasting. Because you're saying what you're saying with conviction, that's the most important thing. For people that say that Kamala Harris is burning down the party on the way out of the party, I don't think that that's the case. And I think I can tell that by that interview. That interview tells me that even though she's not going to run

for governor of California, that she believes that she still has a political future. because the reality is everything that she put in that book is one thing. I'm still reading the book. But when she's been asked about it and talked about it, there's still some hymen and Holland. Yeah. There's still some politicking.

There's still some, let me tell you guys what happened and really kind of explain why we weren't successful. But at the same time, let me tell you that there are still things that I believe in. You can tell that she's still thinking about her future. A hundred percent. That also was the same thing for the view. I felt like that was the same conversation I was getting from the view. I try not to watch too much because I'm not done with the book. I am seeing the response that's coming out from mostly from the Democrats, the rumblings of them not being too pleased by it. So I agree with you. 100 percent, some him and and hon going on there. But from what I've read so far, this is all I'll say. I said on this podcast, I was like, I don't know how she could write this book and keep going with her political career because I don't think she can go be the governor of California because of where she's been. So to me, the only natural thing is president. But from so far from reading the book, I feel like she's going to run.

Yeah. But that's just, but, you know, that's just where I am right now. Yeah. I, it, everything seems to be pointing towards her belief that she has a future in politics. So everything seems to be, uh, point is that. If she has a future, the future is going to be at president. I think this is more of an, the book is more of an explanation, uh, as to how things went the way they did.

And it's a shakeup of the Democratic Party. And I'll say this. The Democratic Party needs to be shaken up. They need the shakes. Um, but I'm not finished. with the book. So I'll give you guys my entire, I don't like these books. I told you guys already. I don't like, I need

policymakers and difference makers to make differences. And you know, the book to me can be looked at as a self-serving thing. However, I am starting to kind of see that a part of her writing this book might literally be to get all of this out of her so that she can rejuvenate

herself and get ready for something in the future. Maybe just answer all of the questions. one fail swoop. It's 25 now. It's not till 28. Let it be out there. Here are my friends.

Here are my enemies. This is where I stand. No ambiguity. Get it all out and go for it. Control the narrative. That's exactly what this is. Now, the messy side of me loves this. I'm not going to lie.

The mess inside of me is like, tell it all. Yeah. Torek Withers is on the podcast right now, the star of him. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. The movie is him.

It is sparking all kinds of discussion. It's in theaters now. It stars Marlon Wayans, but more importantly in stars, the man that's joining us right now, Tariq Withers, join us on Higher Learning. How are you doing, my brother? I'm doing well. You know, I'm a live.

I woke up. I get to talk to y'all about the film. So I'm grateful. It's a time. So let's have a conversation, because I want to talk about We met. I don't know if you remember,

but we met. Yeah, yeah. At the center screen in LA. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something about him about Tariq. So when we met, he was with the homie that played, he was with the homie in White Lotus.

What's the guy's name? Nicholas Duvonne. Nicholas Duvrenet who played in White Lotus. This is a big deal. White Lotus that just came out. Everybody was like, whatever, whatever. I'm talking to Tari, because I'm not remembering the Atlanta thing.

And I'm talking to them. I'm talking to them like, yeah, man, you know, your homie is a big deal and everything's happening. And then he talks to me so humbly. He goes, yeah, you know, we're friends, we're best friends, we support each other. He's doing his thing right now. And the whole deal is, and everybody's coming up and talking to him, because literally the White Lotus finale had just happened as the seniors premiere. And then I'm on the road a little while after that. And I look up and I see a billboard and is you on the billboard?

And I'm like, you're talking about, yeah, the homie's up right now. We got to support the homie. Meanwhile, at this point, your movie is probably shot. It's probably the post is done. And you know that you are starring in this major movie that's coming out. And you didn't say nothing to buy it. You didn't even say, yeah, I just let you know, you know, my own shit dropping later on. So he up right now, but I'm coming for them in the fall.

I'm coming. You didn't do none of that. And when I saw it, I was like, oh, shit, look at this. Yeah. I don't feel to have it out. Your name on the market. Key, you're a movie star. You have led a film.

How's it feel? You know, speaking to that experience, you know, I think it's always good to, like, let your homeboy shine. And, you know, I'm really proud of the work that he put in with that show. And we really, you know, are on the up and up together, you know, like I was sleeping on the air matches in his liver room. And, you know, I'm not wanting to beat my test. You know, I just do my thing and, you know, the work dictates. itself. But yeah, it's just a real experience. Like, I try to avoid them billboards when I'm in

LA. Because it's, I don't know, it's something you dream of, but then you just like start reflecting, like, okay, why do I, like, what do I really want out of this, you know? And I just like, you know, it put a lot of pressure on my shoulders that, you know, I just really hope people resonate with the movie, rather. But yeah, yeah, I'm blessed to have such an iconic billboard that, you know, Justin Tippin, he curated that where, you know, he has a lot of references to, like, iconic sports moments.

If you get to see the movie, there's this one last supper scene. I see the movie. Yep. And that, but Alan Iverson did a photo shoot like that, you know. And then that poster is to commemorate, you know,

Michael Jordan's, like, basketball pose. But, yeah, it's just, it's like a bit of some imposter syndrome, but, you know, I'm working to like, I'm working with my therapist and just myself to just be like, I'm exactly where I need to be and I deserve to be here. So, yeah. I, what I have appreciated is how much fun you're having on this entire press tour, whether it's a TikTok, whether it's you just while now at Jennifer Hudson's show, you just really just seem to be taking in all the moment and like Van just told the story of being humble. What is it?

that you're learning yourself as you're about yourself as you're on this journey and with the movie and with the attention and all of it. Yeah. You know, it's a stressful process starting a career. And I think a part of me was like holding on tight to, you know, everything needs to be perfect and XYZ. But, you know, doing interviews with Marla Waynes, you start seeing the freedom. You start seeing the freedom of him holding on to who he authentically is. And, you know, I think I was experience in a certain level of grief of not being the person I truly am because, you know, oh, a camera's in your face and X, Y, Z. And then I just start, like, letting go and allowing, like, myself to have fun in these,

in these interviews because you're always in the minds of other people. But, you know, who I truly am, I come from a place of, you know, fun, like goofing off and joy. I think you have to have that balance, especially with a film like this, where it's so, so intense. and it brings up some themes that it's quite frankly hard to talk about. And so I think allowing people to see who I truly am is the best form of marketing. And I don't need to specifically curate things because the more I hold on, the more I hold on, because I watch some interviews, my first interviews, because, you know, the live interviews are like the scariest.

And I just see myself, like, kind of constricted a little bit. And, you know, as the press tour went on, I found that flow state and, you know, we just finished our UK stop. And those interviews, I was just like free because we don't have anything to lose and having Marlon to like really show me the way has been helpful. Man, I always wonder, did this film take a psychological toll on you? This is, for people who don't understand the depth of the film, you're watching a horror film, but you're also watching a film

that deals with cosmic entities, demonic forces, how those forces are wrapped up in capitalism existing in this sports league. Like the sports league itself and the team, the San Antonio Saviors, it's almost a metaphor or a conduit for this

being. I don't want to give away too much, but it is a deeply, deeply disturbing and psychologically provoking film. As somebody who's the star of that movie, how do you safeguard yourself while you're making it? Yeah. To answer your question, it does put a lot of psychological, mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical pressure when you bring a story like this. Because like you said, it ties into those themes. And I started saying, like, you don't really watch him. You survive it, you know, because it looks into the reality of, you know, the world.

and I think that's the iconic thing about working with Jordan Pill and Justin Tippin and Monkey Paul Universal Studios is we're able to articulate those themes in an organic way to make you think and question. But yeah, I think filming this movie was one of the hardest things I ever tapped into because, you know, I had to physically get into that physique of an NFL-bound quarterback. But I think with that comes the mental, emotional, psychological hurdles to bring this story to life. And, you know, the perfectionism was one thing that weighed on my shoulders and, you know, doing the athletes justice and being a vessel. You know, I think that's why I'm in this industry of acting this, you know, I ask God to use me as a vessel to amplify messages that can translate, you know, generations or, you know, even races.

And, yeah, I think with all this on your shoulders, it's only natural to have the mental and psychological rigor. But yeah, I think having a village, having a healthy relationship with your director to discuss things, if you have a chance to speak to Justin Tipping, he's a savant and what he pulls from and how he's able to articulate himself. and having somebody like Marlin on set to always bring the joy rather than living in that sadness

because a cool thing about working on Marlin is you see the pain and struggles that you want that goes through but you don't have to live in that. And I used to feel like I had to live in that sadness. But he looks at things and finds the funny in it and he lives in that space and that translated to me.

And so even film, in the movie, you start to see me gain more light. Because, yeah, it is an opportunity for me to prove myself. Cameron Cade's story is similar to mine where, you know, you're given an opportunity and you're not, you're not about the mess. So yeah, that's a little bit about that process. I always wonder when you see a role like this, as you described, that's so heavy and so intense. And you just kind of touched on a little bit when you talked about the similarity between your journeys. When you read the script, was there hesitation on your part? Were you like, I don't know if this is for me

or immediately did you see that similarity? And you're like, no, this is something I can do. I want to do because of the connection you felt. Yeah, I think it was never, this isn't for me. Am I able to step into the shoes of this character and bring their story to life? You always have that question because even coming from football, I didn't really play it at that high level.

that, you know, this character's playing and, you know, I didn't play quarterback. Yeah, I played for Florida State. But I didn't, you know, I was on the bench. But, you know, that's what, when I'm reading it, I'm like, can I carry a film at that time? Because I've only had an Atlanta episode, and that was, what, seven shoot days?

And this is mid-30s, you know, and it's a multi-million dollar production. Yeah, you have that anxiety. But I think, you know, it's the things that make me feel most uncomfortable that draw me to it. And, you know, breaking down the script with the team at Monkey Paul, with the team with the casting director, Carmen Cuba. That's when I really got to see the vision for what they were trying to bring to life. And, yeah, to be honest, I think when you're stretched so far, everything else in the middle becomes, easier. So yeah, I had to

work out and train with the NFL quarterback. But I think, you know, when you train so hard, you know, like the acting side of it, you know, you stopped stressing about just the performance, but rather the physique, the emotional journey of the character.

Yeah, and I was in a different country when they reached out. It was a whole different process when they sent the script, but, you know, you said something earlier. You said that you don't really watch him, you survive him. And that's interesting that you would say that because the movies come out and the reaction

to the film has been interesting. You've seen people, this is full spectrum. You've seen people say, hey, this movie is bad. Then you've seen people say, this movie is a specific cinematic journey that you have got to surrender to in order to understand it. then you've seen people that say the movie is absolutely visionary, right? Yeah.

So it's not a movie just to be honest with the people that haven't seen it. It's not actually a movie that's very easy to critically contextualize. It's just not easy to, to, because I don't even know if it's supposed to be enjoyed

as much as it's supposed to be beholden and experienced. What has the reaction to the film been like for you. Did you expect there to be some discourse about how good the movie was or how much people would enjoy it? Did you expect

there to be a lot of conversation? Because there's one thing you can say. There is a shit ton of conversation about the movie and that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Anything Jordan Pill you expect to create the conversation

and I think that's the goal. of great art. We don't make art for people to like it. You can't make art for people to like it because it's subjective. You can create art that shines a light onto real reality.

And I think being black in America is not, it's an experience. And I come from a place of privilege where being mixed and being white passing, I don't know the depths of how difficult it is. And so I think, you know, when you make an art piece like this, you don't make it to be enjoyed

because you're showing the reality of a character's journey that relates to a cohort of people. And so for people to say they don't like it, it's just, I don't, yeah, there's certain scenes in it where I'm like, I don't care if you like it or not. It's real. It's real life what athletes have to go through, real life what black athletes have to go through, put your body, soul, mind, into what you're,

what you're chasing. And it's like, are you chasing greatness or running from something? And, you know, I think, yeah, I'm so proud of this piece because of that conversation. And, you know, it started when I worked on Atlanta with Donald Glover, where the episode is a, you know, think piece on identity. and my sister texted me a couple months later saying that she was studying the episode

in a mixed race politics class and that's when the responsibility of me as an artist as an actor change where it's yes we want to create entertaining pieces but I think I have a responsibility I have the privilege to tell stories

and that aren't just to be digested in an entertaining way. I think this film creates those conversations that a lot of people are scared to talk about. And I think when you mix a filmmaker like Justin Tipping and Jordan Pill and Marlon Wains,

that's what you get. And yeah, the conversation is a beautiful thing that this film has done. You mentioned... Can I say some... Go ahead. No, yeah, go ahead. You mentioned being white passing. Yeah.

For you, you said, I'm black, I'm mixed, I'm white passing. It seemed like you identified yourself as a black man, but you had to also understand that you're mixed. And then you have to also understand that you're white passing, right? Yeah. What is, how do you contend and come to your identity? Tell people that don't know you, they're going to look at you,

they're going to hear you say all of those things, how you approach and contend with who you are and what your identity in America is. Yeah, so my dad's a black American from Chicago. My mom's white from Maine, and I'm the only one from Taxville, Florida. But yeah, you know, I grew up not in the black experience, you know, so I identify as a black man, but I never want to take up space and say my experience is just as difficult because, you know, I think the way I look, you know, I grow my hair out, my hair straight. My brother had the curly hair.

And so, yeah, I walk through the world with privilege. So I always, I'd be remiss to not mention that privilege. But yeah, growing up, there was always this identity struggle of where do I fit in at, you know? And then it could be, you know, literal and figurative. You know, I always describe it as like a lunchroom. You know, you walk in, you know, my racial identity is like you walk into a lunchroom. You know, you sit here, but, you know, you can't. fully relate here. You sit here and you can't fully relate here. And then I just stopped trying to

fit in and I just decided to sit down at wherever the hell I wanted to sit, you know, and operate from that, that aspect. And, you know, I choose my blackness every day and I explore that. And even throughout college, you know, I joined the first black, black Greek letter organization, Alpha Phi Alpha Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, even on campus of Florida State, getting involved with the Black Student Union, my first play was the first ever black student union play at Florida State that talked about themes of police brutality, being black in America.

And, you know, I think that was important for me to do. And so, yeah, yeah, it's an everlasting journey. And I think being black is an honor because we come from greatness. and I'm so lucky to have that. And I just want to live in that space to keep continue to tell stories that my people have witnessed throughout history.

Beautifully said. Fantastic. We have these conversations on this podcast. We had a whole byrace. We needed you. And I'm glad that you just. Anytime. It was beautiful.

You know, I'm a former Miss Black and Gold, by the way. Uh-oh. Former me, that's right. That's right. I'm a Delta, but former Ms. Blackholm. I was a pageant dad. I was a pageant dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I want to talk about the athleticism, because I don't know if you know this, but Van is our resident athlete on the show here. Yeah, but also quarterbacking. So you worked with Jordan Palmer. Van DMs Quincy Avery, another football coach, and really wanted to tap into what he can do

because he thinks he can be an elite quarterback. That's not what I said. I never said that I could be an elite quarterback. I just said, I feel like I never played QB. I feel like he could make me a QB. I never said elite, but I could be. What kind of QB? Could you play it for and stay?

No, I just wanted, I think I could be out there a point guard. I think. He said point guard. Okay, I think I think I could be a point guard to get the ball of my playmakers in space. Whatever, that's all I'm saying. Let's see. No, no, but for you. I think it's, you know, as we're getting to know you and you, you know, Atlanta, you talk about that.

You play and tell me lies. I love that show. But the transition from football, going from football to acting. What's been harder for you playing football, acting, and how did you make that transition and decide I want to let this go and move to this? Yeah, I think it's all different chapters in my life, right? I think because I grew up playing soccer. and then I transitioned to football out of spite

because I got cut. I was like, you know what? Watch this. That's what you learned you was black. They cut you off a soccer team and then you was on the football team. You was like, maybe I am black. I was rounding him up.

I was laughing about there. I ended up getting some, I got an offer to go to some DG1 AA schools. I think the biggest one was Davis in college. And that was the first time I got introduced to like hazing and whatnot. So yeah,

I think it's different chapters because when you take that step from like the nest to college, you know, you have to work through those emotions. There's a scene in the movie where I'm like, you know, something, I call my mom and like, something's off. I literally had that same thing happen to me when I went to Davidson College. And the team there, they were like hazing me up. They weren't nice. And I didn't realize, you know, that's like a process that teams go through.

Because in my mind, I was like, y'all went one in eight last year. You were worried about the wrong thing. So it was a journey. from there to decide to go to Florida State. I had to, you know, call the coaches and tell them I'm switching to Florida State and I decided to walk on to, you know, elite football team. And then having to quit football because I wanted to get into acting, that was a whole different journey.

But I think, you know, acting has been monumentally more difficult. I don't even know if I said that right. But, yeah, I think because I think when it came to sports, you hide behind the shell of a uniform and you go out and take your emotions out on a field. You know, as men, you're not taught, you know, emotional intelligence. And so, you know, when I gave up sports, I really didn't have an outlet, a healthy outlet to, like, express myself. And I had to find that and search that. And that's when I found myself as a different leadership positions on campus so I can learn about the human condition.

and even the transition from college to, okay, I'm a move to Atlanta and pursue acting. I had to learn how to, you know, use the pain, the trauma, the life experience, and project it on to characters that I decided to play. And I think that's the hard thing about acting where I always say, I forget what actor said this. He was like, if you want to act, forget about acting and live. And I think the real.

real life experiences are poured into my characters now. You know, and as I was chasing my dream of acting, I had like no gigs. I'm like auditioning. That's all I can think about. I'm in acting class. It's quarantine. So you go from this world of like, okay, you have friends making six figures here. And you go to literally not making any money to using student loans to pay for your rent.

And then you look up, you know, my brother ends up, he dies, you know. And that was a wake up call for me because, you know, in my mind, I switched positions with him in a heartbeat, you know, because I'm like, I felt, I felt like so like surface level. I'm like, hey, my name is Tyree Wathers. I'm 6'5. I'm a local hire in Atlanta, Georgia when he's actually bringing life into the world as a dad, you know.

And I think that journey of acting was so difficult because, because, you know, I had to really find my why. And my why was, you know, to put out art to help others heal. And I think that I'm able to take those life experiences. I'm a mosaic. I take that mosaic, apply it to the work, and make more people feel seen. And I think that's what you get with him, where my real life experience of grief, family, love is poured into this character.

And that's why I don't care if you like it or not, you know. It's real life art, you know? And that's, and if somebody out there feels like many people, many athletes are able to come up to me and say, yo, I really appreciate that. And I'm like, that's why I do it. You know, it's interesting, man. When you take the movie in, there are things that are said about athletes that we say,

I don't want to give away the movie. People have to see it. but like, you know, people are sucking the blood of these athletes or using these athletes. And then a lot of those things in the movie are very directly addressed. When you guys, when I say directly addressed, I mean, all of the things that you've heard about what you, they're directly in the movie.

And the sports horror film is not something that I had ever really, the sports psychological thriller, is not something I had ever really seen before. So this film is almost like, in a way, proof of concept about whether or not this genre has any legs. It's interesting to hear you just address it as a piece of art that people have to contend with rather than people have to like actually like. Did you feel that way while you were shooting it? Did you feel that way before you got like when you were reading the script or when you looked at this? did you come away with the thought

that this art is good enough to exist in the world whether or not people can access it or not because that's hard for people to do. That's hard for young actors to do. That's hard for older actors to do. That's hard for anybody that's put anything out in the world. You put it out in the world and then you don't live through it. A lot of people live with it.

And if somebody says they don't like the art, a lot of people feel like you're saying you don't like me. you have you're not you're like the way the actors and performers I know that feel like you they've been doing it for 30 40 years ago I do something I say what the fuck I have to say deal with it yeah how did you get there with this particular movie like was it after you saw it was while you were reading it was it Justin was it Marlin was it Jordan how did you get to that particular part that that's very liberating to be there already and be there with your first starring role Yeah, immediately when I read the script,

I knew it was going to be an uncomfortable conversation, not for me, because we can talk about this any day. You know, but, you know, it's when you, I just, I'm holding up a mirror. And I think doing that, you know, people are nervous. And I think it was after I had a conversation with Jordan Piel and he says, I know when I'm making something great when I'm on set. and I look up I'm like, should we be filming this?

You know? And then everybody says they want to work with the greats, but, you know, they don't, they're afraid to like tap into that mindset. And I think it was after that conversation, it was during filming.

You know, because as a newer artist, you're like, I hope people like this. You know, I hope people like this. Yes. I hope they like this. And you have that ego tied into the work. But I think it, you know, after filming and sitting with the film

for over a year, you're able to detach from it and it is exactly what it needed to be. And I think, you know, it it's an allegory and it being so detached from it,

you're able to, you know, when people say, I'm going to watch a movie this weekend, see what it's about. I was like, I just hope it resonates with you. That's all I can ask, you know, and whatever, and everybody's entitled to their own opinion, whether you like it or not, but it's the truth in working with Marlin on this, you know, somebody who's unapologetically himself, no matter what, he's going to give it to you. This way, that way, it doesn't matter. I think the guidance of him through this process is helpful

and, you know, not everything is for everybody. And it's a work in progress. And it's a journey, to keep this mindset because, you know, I'm so passionate about this film. I'm passionate that can speak to so many different things. I think it transcends sports. I think it's a universal theme

of, you know, wanting to prove oneself not only for you know, the coaches, but, you know, your family. And you're like, am I really doing this for myself? And it's that search of identity that the duality of

grief where, you know, such pain and suffering causes beautiful relationships and love to blossom. And I think the exploration of grief in this movie for me is not only losing a loved one, but losing your authentic self in that process of chasing greatness. And so, yeah, I think as long as I tie myself to those themes and know that I did everything of my power to bring this story to life, I know everybody attached to this film, I'm super passionate and grateful that, you know, I had the responsibility to, you know, carry this film alongside Marlon. And, yeah, I don't live in that ego if you like it or not because I don't try not to buy into the you like it because that when you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

You know, it's a story that so many different filmmakers came together to make and where they're at, you know, Kira Kelly, I have cinematographer. She was, she got let out the cage with this movie. If you watch it, it's food, like, it's food for the brain. Any scene, it's like a painting, you know. And Justin Tippin, he got pulled into the world of TV. He got let out of the cage to make this film. Marlon Waynes, he really subverts the audience's expectations

when it comes to the level of performance he got to. And, you know, I think it's not always the destination. It's the community and journey. and I think all the experience that I had making this movie, I hold dear to my heart for the rest of my life. Tariq Withers, thank you so much for joining us on Higher Learning. Congrats on the movie. The movie is him out in theaters now.

Thank you for being open, vulnerable, all the things. You've got to come back on the podcast and talk to us about what you're doing next. We're going to be following your career for sure. By the way, just before he goes, I'm telling people right now, go see the movie. I'm being for real, though, seriously. go see the movie so you can judge for yourself. I'm just being for real.

Go see the movie so you can judge for yourself. You really need to go see the movie. There's a conversation that's happening, but every once in a while there's a piece of art that you need to really be able to decide for yourself how much art you like, where your boundaries are, how expansive and exploratory you are,

like this is a film that until you've seen it you can't really get in on the discourse you really should go see the movie I'm serious because I'm sitting there like God damn so it's a it's a goddamn movie you won't know how you felt about the movie after you're just one you need to go and experience the film

and the fantastic performances like he said you have to survive it but go see it go see it test yourself go see it have fun it's fun it's also fun y'all crazy though Like, niggia, y'all, Hey,

Martin's crazy. Y'all, y'all y'all, y'all, y'all. The whole fucking, all of y'all, shrooms. Yeah. All y'all. Like major shrooms

for all, for everyone involved. Y'all, y'all, y'all crazy, bro. Thank you for joining this, though, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Please. You, too. All right, we're out. We're out.

We're podcasting. We're doing it. We're having fun. We're getting to the bottom of things. The world is on fire. And you guys, we ain't got a water hose, but we definitely got spit. All right? Yeah. We definitely got spit.

And if we all spit together, I promise you, we got two things. The world's on fire. We got to do two things. Either we got a still or water hose or we all got to spit on it together. Oh, my God. Pause. Jesus. Couldn't end the podcast without some sort of innuend up.

What? Creepy Uncle Van. That's me. Creed. No, what's your new name? Greatunk. What does she call yourself? Grand Unk.

Grand Unk. Creepy Grand Unk. Creepy Grand Unk. Listen, next podcast, we're going to be talked. We got to talk about, I mean, we're on the verge of a government shutdown again. We haven't, there's been so much going on. We haven't even tapped into it. So next week, whether it's on Tuesday or Friday, we're getting into it.

Government shutdown. Fun stuff. Everything's happening at the same time. I still believe in y'all. I hope you guys believe in yourselves. Take thin caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen, Jr.

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys. Ryan Reynolds here from MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did

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