Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Talking ‘Jeen-Yuhs: A Kanye Trilogy’ With Directors Coodie and Chike

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay discuss Kanye West's troublesome social media activity (7:28) before welcoming ‘Jeen-Yuhs’ directors Coodie and Chike to discuss the evolution of Kanye in their new Netflix documentary (26:23). Plus, the NFL hires Loretta Lynch (18:18), and Eric Adams meets with drill rap artists (1:12:44).  Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Coodie and Chike Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Highland is on. Is Ivan Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel Lynn Lindsay. That's what I said. Of the Lindsay's.

Of the Lindsay family. How's your dad? Dad is good. Dad is good. Who's he up to? You know, just doing this thing in the courtroom, sentencing people left to. I was about to say, I would like to see his last five sentences.

You know, just like, you know what? I should be in charge. I should be in charge of oversight of the judge. You would enjoy watching him because he loves to like bring in his own flare. He was telling me the other day. He was sentencing someone to five years. And then they started really like complaining and go. And he didn't have to.

That was the minimum. Right. And he was doing what he could within the sentencing. And they started acting a certain way. And then he was like, fine, 10. And the guy just lost it. Right. And my dad was like, you don't want this smoke.

I said, oh my God, you said that? Wow. On the record. On the record. Do you think the judge would let me watch? Could I come and like hang out and then like, you know, go to chambers? Of course you go. I feel like he'd be like, Van, don't touch that.

Van. Yeah, of course you could go at 80 times. Have you been in his chambers before? Of course, all the time. I just roll up there. You got to roll up there. You got to go through security at the front. Then you got to go up to the floor.

You've got to go through security again before you can even go towards the chambers. So there's the courtroom and then the chambers are in the back. What goes on in chambers? What happens? I mean, it's just, it's an office. The chambers are an office. So there's a library back there. there's a kitchen, there's a conference room, there's like the law clerks, the intern.

He gets his own kitchen and his own, it's his own in the chambers? So it's not an office then. What are you talking about? It's a little condo. I mean like, okay, fine. It's a condo. So you really should go. You would enjoy yourself.

How long is a judge's shift? Like, how long do you be? There's no, there's no nine to five. It's, you know, my dad gets to the office probably like seven in the morning. I would say he at least stays till seven at night. My dad works. Working 12s as a judge. He thrives off of working.

He loves what he does. And you do two different cases in a day or you do just one case? No, it depends. It depends what's on the schedule. You could have several, it could be a whole day of sentencing. It can be trial. It can be listening to motions. It just changes up.

You have your morning docket, your afternoon docket. So let's say this. let's say the judge has a big case but he also wants to go play golf with one of his buddies from law school he sounds a role that way so just listen Rachel can the judge go can the judge go

okay we're not getting anywhere today recess till tomorrow clack clank clank and then absolutely oh my god if I was a judge we'd be recessing all the time we'll be recessing like control Just full control.

We come back tomorrow. Bang. Yeah. You realize my dad can only be removed from the bench if he's impeached. That's a lot. They're not going to do that. So, and what about, like, objections? Does he ever tell you about what his strategy for objections is?

As in how he rules on them? How he rules on them? Like, how does he sustain and dismiss? What does he say? Sustain and overrule. Excuse me. overruled. How does he, how does he legal, legal? How does he do it? What's the basis of the sustained? It depends what it is that was said. It depends what the objection is, right? Like,

what are you basing the objection on? You can't, I can't tell you. Yeah. You ever see my cousin Vinnie? Yes, love it. I imagine that the judge is kind of like that guy. Stern, but with the heart of goal wants the best for you. Isn't he a little racist? No. The guy of my cousin Vinny, no. That's fucking Herman Chonster. The judge? I mean, okay. Maybe I'm thinking of a time to kill. They were everybody who's raised this in that movie and hot.

That's the hottest movie ever. And by hot, you're talking temperature-wise. They are in fucking hell. People need to understand if they haven't seen it. I'm from there, right? I'm from, not Mississippi, but I'm from Louisiana. And y'all, it gets hot. Don't get me wrong.

Okay. It gets very humid. You're from Texas. it gets very humid right but we have air conditioning we don't walk around like fucking wet all day long you know what I'm saying

if we in a specific if we go all day long maybe to like I don't know the park or family day in the park the big radio festival yeah spring fest maybe but they inside man but what decades was that in? What decade is?

Wasn't it? No that's when it came out but was it based in the 90s? Yes. I feel like they were dressed in a different time period for some reason. Ah, no, man. It was the 90s. Are we sure?

I'm pretty sure. I wonder what the setting is because I feel like. I don't think the setting is in this. The setting is definitely during the time where air conditioning was prevalent. It wasn't pre-air conditioned. A time they got pretty sure it's set in the modern. Okay. It's a 1989 novel.

Yeah. It didn't come out. John Grisham, I think, right? It is John Grisham. Yeah. So it didn't come out. till later on. So, but it, uh, it's during, it's in the 90s.

This is present day. Okay. Okay. Yes, I think they deserve to die and I hope they're burning hell. Let me tell you something about that. The best one is though, the best one is not him. The best one is, uh, Chris Cooper or what's the guy's name? Whatever.

The officer? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Turn him loose. Ask him if he thinks I deserve to go to jail. You turn him loose. I'd have done the same thing.

Jesus Christ. We cry. Is that Officer Dan? I don't know if his name is Officer Dan. No, in Forrest Gump? No, it's not the same guy. No. Scarceny's.

He's very racist. No, it's not. I almost didn't ask too for that same reason. Guys, if you haven't seen a time to kill or my cousin Vinnie, both legal but totally different movies. See them both. They're great. Yeah.

Different, different movies. If I've seen them, everybody should have seen them. Okay, you guys, here's a deal. later on we have Cudi and Chiquet that directed the Kanye West fantastic documentary genius

coming on this show Cudy and Chiquet are going to be here later on to talk to him about Kanye West and about the documentary itself but before we talk to them about this we have to talk about the big deal of the day

which is unfortunately Kanye West's current behavior and what it means overall in culture. We'll take a break. We come back with the big deal of it today. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay. So Kanye West has posted and deleted a photo of Kim Kardashian. Hours after issuing a statement of taking accountability for publicly harassing and leaking their private messages. Now, if you guys are not keeping up with this, Kanye West is using his social media to create an ongoing narrative about the state of his relationship

with Kim Kardashian. they are estranged right now, if not officially divorced. I don't think they're officially divorced yet. She is seeing P. Davis and Kanye West until recently we're seeing Julia Fox, but that has gone to kaput. We talked about that on the podcast a little earlier this week. A lot of people now are calling Kanye West out for what they believe to be is harassing, dangerous, and just overall weird and off-putting behavior surrounding.

Kim Kardashian and her now boyfriend Pete Davidson. He has posted private text messages. He has posted text messages from other people trying to get in touch with Kim. He has posted messages subtly threatening Pete. He has been on songs saying that he wants to beat Pete Davidson's ass. He's done all of these things. He's called Pete Davidson skeet. All of these things.

He seems to be harassing Pete for sure. And a lot of people say Kim Kardashian, I'll ask you, Rachel, do you think that Kanye West, because he had come out and said he was taking accountability and he wasn't going to do this anymore, but he did it again. Did it again. Do you think that his behavior towards Kim is bleeding over into harassment? Do you think he's harassing her? He's absolutely harassing her. I mean, there's no denying it. Kim filed for divorce in February 2021. It's a year ago. And then in December. December of 2021, she declared to be legally single in formal documents, and she stated that there's no counseling or reconciliation effort that would fix their marriage. Kim is done. It's over for her. Now, I do believe that Kanye West really does want his family back together. They have four children together. But that doesn't mean that it excuses you from the behavior that you're doing. It doesn't

mean that it permits you to do what you're doing just because you really want to see your family back together. Kim has stated what she wants. You have to respect that at the end of the day. And what she wants is to be away from you. And at this point, it seems like Kanye is more caught up in trying to just have control over the situation more than it is about respecting her boundaries and what she wants. He's treating her like a piece of property at this point. And that's harassment. I think there's some desperation in it, but it's still harassing in what he's doing because she's made her point very clear. When I look at Kanye's actions, the words that come to mind are possessive, obsession, alarming, scary. It's triggering to a lot of people what he's doing.

And what it's not, it's not romantic and it's not entertaining. And I'm really against the people who are trying to say he just wants his woman back. He can want her back all he wants, but this is not the way that you go about it. People are watching. This is very public. And you have children that are of age that can recognize what's going on as well. If Kim was my friend and her man, like if this was my friend and my friend's man was acting in this way, I would tell her to get a restraining order. That's point blank period.

If you put yourself in this situation, if this was your friend, this was happening to your friend, how would you respond? Just because they're famous doesn't change the situation. It's not romantic. It's alarming. It's harassment. Huh. So, we've seen guys

trying to get their girls back before, right? Right. Puff did. I need a girl to ride, ride, ride. And we appreciate the song. Nick Cannon just put out a song called Alone, which a lot of people think is him trying to get Brian Carrey Carrey back.

Biggest problem is he's singing on it. Robin Thick had a whole album called Paula. It's trying to get Paula Patton back. So we've seen this before. We've seen guys. Not like this. This, though, is not that. Okay?

And I want to make sure. I saw somebody post, and this is the dangerous part of it. Oh, I want to overreact here. We're reacting appropriately to what's happening here. Saw somebody post. I'm exactly like Kanye. If you do not want to be with me, then you shouldn't be with me. you try to leave me when I'm still in love with you, I'm that same way.

The reason why that struck my mind is about somebody I follow on Instagram, by the way, DM them about it. The reason why that stuck in my mind is because that tells me that the normalization of this behavior is gaining some sort of traction. Yeah. And when I look at that, look, I don't, I'm not going to summarily dismiss anything, right? But I don't think that I'm super worried about Kanye was doing anything. dangerous to Kim Kardashian. I'm not, I think that worry is besides the point, but I don't think that

that's an actual real worry for me. I am worried about someone doing something to Pete Davidson on behalf of Kanye West, because when you look at all of the people down there, I'm worried Pete Davidson walks through someplace somewhere or someone goes crazy, punches Pete in the face, whatever, whatever. I think that's more likely than something happening to Kim. But at the same time, when people exhibit behavior like this, it starts to become increasingly difficult to rule anything out. And when you're not ruling anything out, that means everything's in. And for me, I am more actually flabbergasted, not so much even in his behavior as I am the acceptance of it by people who I thought knew better than this. like it just seems to be whatever yay does and we'll talk to cooney and chiquet a little bit later because we had feelings about the documentary whatever yay does we write it off as yay being yay and i guess the question is where does that stop like we've already been some really interesting ridiculous places we've already been to the i'm down a white supremacy place we've already been to the i'm richer than you classes weird place

We've already been to the I shit on everybody in my life place. But I guess what I'm wondering now is we're going to the harassing your wife and making an unsafe environment place. And it seems like we're just continuing to push the envelope here. Right. Right. So I don't know. You can't underestimate what someone will do when they're desperate. And Kanye is desperate.

it really seems that way. Like at first, even I was like, he's just doing this for attention. He just wants to exert control over Kim because he has no control. But then as it continues to go, I'm like, this is a man who is desperate for whatever is motivating his desperation. You know, it's because if he wants his family back, if he doesn't want to see Kim move on with someone else, I don't know what it is. But you cannot treat it like it's nothing when someone's.

reacting this way out of desperation. And I think that's what people need to pay attention to. And I think also people are excusing his behavior because he is famous. And sometimes people act like famous people can't do stuff that people out here in the normal world do. That's not true either. So I think you have to pay attention to it. And also, I just think people don't want to like side with Kim Kardashian.

And I don't think it's siding. I don't think people need to look at it that way. the woman has said what she doesn't want. People need to respect that. And they were doing just fine co-parenting for months. I saw a lot of people going. Yeah, I'm no Kim Kardashian fan, but you don't have to be a Kim Kardashian fan.

Exactly. People just don't want to side with the Kardashians. It's not about that, y'all. It ain't about that. By the way, we need better ways to wish ill on people. Do you go around wishing ill on people? in different ways talk to me

so I don't wish ill on you like I wish that you get harassed by your ex-husband or that something bad happens I wish ill like in a small way like for example would it bother me would it bother me this weekend if Ted Cruz just twisted his ankle

just an ankle twist just a nuisance right like I don't wish ill on his family I don't wish that he gets COVID. I don't wish anything like that. Let's say he's stepping out. Let's say you step out of his GMC. Boom.

Takes a wrong step. Bang. Ted Cruz, spraying ligaments. They'll heal. Before a while, it's going to be a bitch, right? It's going to hurt.

So you want to inconvenience them. Ice that motherfucker up. Ice it up, Ted. Ice that motherfucker up. Elevated. Put heat on it. You can't walk on it. You can't go play beach volleyball.

You got a twist and ankle. That's what you deserve. nothing really bad but like when I wish ill on people it's like you know what motherfucker I hope you get a flat tire you're on your way somewhere you want to get there you get a flat tire boom nail in the tire then what do you do you have to swerve off you have to change the tire you got called triple a it's an inconvenience nothing bad happens but you deserve a flat tire that's how I do it I don't do it in the bad way it's a chance the rapper song what a chance rap no it's it's a chance the rapper song I can't remember who it's with

and all he does in it is wish little things like this to happen to his age. Oh, is that true? Just little things. Donnie, do you know what I'm talking about? Any chance of the rapper fans in the room? He's, it's a feature on maybe action. Bronson? Oh, there we go, Rachel.

Yeah. I had to hesitate for a second. It might be on his song. Yeah. I'd hesitate. Yeah. But I agree with that. That's you.

That's you. Yeah. I agree with that. Just like, yeah, just like little stuff. Hey. hang nail, you know? It's a paper cut, stuff like that. It's annoying.

You get like lemon juice in it when you're eating some guac. Okay. The NFL has made a really interesting hire. They've hired Loretta Lynch. If you guys don't know who Loretta Lynch is, she's the former U.S. Attorney General under Obama. She has been hired to defend the NFL in the discrimination case brought to the league by Brian Flores.

The NFL is fucking unstoppable. Like, I got to be honest with you, man. I saw that this morning and I'm like, yo, pack it up. I'm serious. I know. The NFL is fucking unstoppable. There's nothing you can do. Like Colin Kaepernick is up.

against the NFL. He's winning the hearts of minds. The NFL goes against Jay-Z. Brian Flores, Brian Flores, has got the NFL on his heels. Once again, people are looking at it.

They get a former black lady attorney general under the first Negro president ever to stand in the gap for them. Fuck! Right. Right. What do you say? And she was the first.

she was the first I should say that Attorney General first black woman I had the same sentiments as you but also at the same time it's like I just want to talk to Loretta

because it should be known this isn't Loretta's first time working with the NFL okay she works for a very very big law firm like extremely like famous law firm and they have been hired before to work on the behalf of the NFL. She was involved with the NFL when they were investigating the Washington football team or, I mean, the commanders now.

She was involved in that. So she has worked before, but they specifically put you as counsel, co-counsel, but counsel on this particular case. A case where Brian Flores is saying that the NFL is racist. And what does the NFL do? This basically screams, see, we're not racist because we are being represented by someone who's black. We hired someone who is like a black woman at that on our legal team. How could we be racist if the very person we are putting this case in their hands is black?

That's literally what they're saying. But I just wonder why. That's my question. I want to talk to look like. Why do you not feel like you're being used? Do you not feel like, because they could have chosen someone else? She does have co-counsel on this, another white man. Do you feel like they purposely put you on this case so they could have somebody who's sitting at the table,

whether it's arbitration, mediation, trial, whatever, that is representative of the black community? You have to feel that way at some point. I'm not saying she's not the most qualified person at that firm, for goodness sakes. Attorney General. all. But she's got to feel a little bit like who you have, her. We want her. So I got a couple questions. Number one, I think it's interesting that after being the eternal general, you go back and you get a job. She's a rainmaker. She's a rainmaker. I guarantee she's a rainmaker. I saw that movie too. Matt Damon, another John Gresham novel.

A lot of people when they leave big and they go back to their firms, they're more of like a figurehead. They're representative of like, hey, they're able to say we have the former U.S. Attorney General in our firm. She brings in business. And she sits there on big cases, you know, because there's the credibility. It's just crazy to be the ex-attorney general. Because, you know, once you're the ex-president, you don't really do shit no more. It's not like you become the ex-president. Then you're going to try to become a senator, right?

When you're an ex-president, you don't do anything anymore. Like, you just chill. But it's just like, I used to be the attorney general of the United States. It's just interesting. It's interesting. If you think that she's doing hard hours in the office, she's not. Let me ask you a question as a legal eagle. Is there any amount of money that you could be paid to defend the NFL?

That's not the kind of question I wanted. Is there any amount of money you could be paid to defend the NFL? Let's say the NFL comes and they say, we need Rachel Lindsay, legal eagle. And we are going to pay you. because think about it, Roger Goodell makes $44 million a year. Wild. It's wild. He Roger Goodell makes $44 million a year as an NFL commissioner.

Let's say they come to you and they say, we want you to defend the NFL and we're going to pay you $25 million. Just to defend us. Would you do it? I don't know. I must be very honest. I don't know. This is what I will say.

When I came out of law school, I wanted to be a public defender. Works for the public defender's office in Milwaukee County. My dad always told me if that's the line of work that I wanted to go into, I'd have more power if I went to the DA's office. Because DA has the power to say we're not prosecuting that case. We're going to put this case out. We're not even dealing with it. Right.

So maybe that's Loretta's master plan. And I'm saying this because if I accepted the $25 million, I'd need some kind of something written out that said, should I find in any kind of way that there is evidence of what Brian Flores is accusing you guys of? I'm out. And I'm taking half the money with me for my pain and suffering. No, you're illegal legal. You can't do that. I know. I know.

I said that'd be the only way I would say yes. Because I just would not want my name tied to. We know the NFL does racist things. Like whether you can prove it or not, you know it. And I just don't want to be on record ever defending them when I know that they are problematic in what they do. There's a reason Colin Kaepernick got a settlement because there was evidence that was found.

I don't want to be on. My reputation is everything to me and I don't want to be on record for that. So I would have to say no, unless I got some kind of like deal. So the NFL has released a statement saying it will defend against these claims which are without merit. Let's say that Loretta Lynch has looked into all of this stuff. And she actually doesn't think that the NFL is acting in a shady way in this case. She thinks they're right.

not in all the situations, but in this situation. So here's the question. Is she saying that legally they're right, as in he can't prove his case, or is it a moral thing? Because I do think, and we talked about this, he's going to have a very hard time proving his case, particularly in the class action part of it. So she might say, well, legally there's no evidence. That's totally different from whether you know morally. They just might not be able to prove it. Doesn't mean it's not true.

Doesn't mean it's not true. OJ. OJ. OJ. OJ. OJ. OJ. OJ.

All right. We're going to take a break now and give you the interview that we did with the creators of genius. Netflix three part Kanye West documentary. We're going to be joined by Kudianchike,

the directors of this, the guys behind creative control when we come back on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Did you know about one in three people with Plaxoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain,

stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis,

who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Guys, there's a phenomenal documentary, and I'm giving my review away before we even get to the there is a phenomenal documentary that is on Netflix as we speak part one is on Netflix right now it is called genius genius that's the way I'm saying it genius and it is about the life and ascendance of one Mr. Kanye West the guy that you guys might know who that guy is it is phenomenal it is timely it is poignant and it is maybe the most full-throated, well-rounded musical doc I've ever seen.

And we are lucky here on higher learning to be joined by the two men who painstakingly over 20-some-odd years compiled footage and make this come together. We are joined now by the guys from Creative Control, Kudy and Chiquet. How are you guys doing? And welcome to Higher Learning. Man, we're great, man. Thanks for having us, man, for sure. And look, in all due respect, I wish I could take the credit

for being there for 21 years, but I had the privilege of being brought in with Cootie later on when we kind of met each other. So he had about a 10-year head start on me. I'd say, at least five. Yeah, at least five. So let's start. So let's start right there.

I think one of the most breathtaking things, breathtaking things, I think one of the most refreshing things about the documentary itself is that, you know, we know Kanye. like we know Kanye, right? Like we know Kanye intimately. But we didn't know

you, Cooney. And I think the documentary starting with actually your story, humanized it in a way and took people out of whatever opinions or perceptions they might have about Kanye West and it was really a fascinating

way to ground it going into what it ended up becoming. How did you make the decision to start the story of Kanye with sort of you because it becomes like the story of you and him almost. Yeah, well, you know, it's a, um, it just wasn't me, you know, it was a whole team of us that they came up with the way we're going to structure it. Our editors, Max Alman and Jason Harper and of course, Chiquet and Jay, you know, so, you know, we all, we just compiled all this footage and then we just, you know, it's like a puzzle.

And we realized the best way to tell this story was through my perspective and to do it. that you had to introduce who I am. You know, like I said, I bet y'all who the hell I am, you know what I mean? Right, right. So that's how we come in. But, you know, it was a journey. It was a journey that we all took in

and I had to show Channel Zero, you know, in Chicago Public Access show that was blowing up, blowing up crazy on around hip-hop period, like with Wu-Tain and Shagg, anybody who we gave a tape to, they will see me later like,

you know, Channel Zero with the fight and this and that. And Method Man actually said Channel Zero was YouTube before YouTube and World Star before World Star. So, you know, so that was the start. And then running into Kanye and seeing how talents he was and watching Hoop Dream, that was like, that was the, you know, inspired the idea to start, you know, filming him because I was in front of the camera. And then I just fell in love with the reaction we were getting with Channel Zero.

And I'm like, I got to learn how to work the camera because Danny Soords, who I was working with, he was cutting hair and he, you know, wasn't, didn't want to go to all the concerts. You know, right? I'm like, dude, give me the camera. So that's how I started. So dope, though, Van, like, as far as in documentary filmmaking, you know, you usually have to set up and contextualize,

like, the environment that your characters are kind of going to come through. And normally, if normally we would have to go find all this B-roll footage because we'd have to contextualize Chicago in that era of rap that Kanye was trying to penetrate through. But so ironic, Cootie was already doing that with the show Channel Zero. you know what I'm saying? He had already done the legwork of contextualized Chicago and that era in the Renaissance

that was actually even happening in hip-hop musically at that time. And his show was the lens for that. You know what I'm saying? So Cudy was like the man already in Chicago and all the hip-hop artists really wanted to get on Channel Zero in order to be like seen. Yeah.

It looked to be the outlet in Chicago, you know. Word. Yeah, that's a prominent theme in the documentary, how, I mean, we think about Chicago hip-hop where it stands right now. It was like all over the place. But that was still an area where things were bubbling up and kind of burgeoning it, but I turn it over to Rachel right now. I just want to get my compliments and say how exceptional I thought this was. I sat down and watched it all the way through. I couldn't stop. I couldn't get enough because in the first part,

it just took me back. It just took me back to a simpler time. And it just made me feel something. And so as I was watching it all the way through, you take us through this roller coaster as we're going through Kanye's life. And I'm just wondering when you started it back or when you met Kanye in 98, did the purpose for creating this documentary change as you got through these 20 plus years? And if so, how did it change? I mean, yeah, well, you know, life changed. You know, we always say that God writes in Jesus direct. So, you know, through our life, we, you know, you never know what's going to happen next. You know, we also say that can't let your imagination get into the way of God's manifestation.

So even doing the doc, I've seen Kanye winning Grammys, but I didn't see him running for president. You know, and the end of the doc, it was supposed to be him winning the Grammys. You know, that was the end, back. We got a documentary, but Kanye wasn't ready to put it out, you know, come to find out. Recently at the premiere, he said he would have been embarrassed if it would have came out when I want, when the first time we had was offered. the deal, which is in 2006. So fast

forward, you know, here we are now and he felt like it was the perfect time for people to see that side of him. So first of all, before it slips in my mind, I want to say something else. Before we, before I

talk about the documentary itself, I want to think about it, Benji, guys. Oh, thank you. Like, for real. Thank you. If you guys are going to watch genius, I want you to watch genius, but there's a 30-30 about a young high school basketball player.

Benjew Wilson, I think it was his name was. Ben Wilson, who was killed in Chicago and who had all the talent and all the potential in the world and made an indelible impact in Chicago high school basketball, in basketball, period. it. And this was one of the most phenomenal 30-30s they ever made. So you guys also did that. I just want to make sure that I put that on people. All right. So obviously I have my own history with Kanye and Wes. Okay. And I was pleased to see my little cameo that I made. Wait, I didn't see you. I was going to make that job. I didn't even see you in it. I was there. Yeah. And at three, I was there for a second. unless the message just blocked it out

right like I was there for a second I gotta be honest about the way the documentary made me feel it made me feel profoundly sad and so I don't think people understand what like a big hero Kanye West is to me

and he is to so many people and it's difficult to watch some of the things that go on now And seeing him when you guys were first getting started, it's like, God, damn. Almost I got into a small period of morning. Like you say it in the doc, you say, I know you missed the old Kanye. It's not that we miss the old Kanye. It's like sometimes we feel like we need the old Kanye.

How did you guys approach the changes in his life? Because by the time this documentary ends, he is like a completely totally different person. His circle has changed. It was good to see you back out there in Wyoming with him after the whole Harriet Tubman thing. But it just seems like a totally different guy. And I think for a lot of people, it might be a little hard to watch the transformation. When you guys were creating it, did you think about that? Were there any ways that you guys wanted to go about that?

It's not always easy to watch the brother in his current state. And I'm trying to be as respectful as possible by still keeping it real with y'all. What were your thoughts towards that? Well, I say everything that we did was with pure intent and God was leading us to this. You got to realize the first act is called vision. That was the vision. The second act is called purpose, and that's what we were doing moving in our purpose. The third act is called awakening.

So we feel like this act would actually wake some people up. You know, I ain't going to say. It's like, it's like, you're right. It need to be just like Benji. When we did Benji, we purposely made sure that everybody when Benji died was going to be in tears, even the thugs and the killers. You know what I mean? So we purposely did that.

And people like, oh, man, I can't watch it. But what's because I just can't take that part. I'm like, yeah, sorry. We did it for the thugs. Sorry, we didn't do it for you. You know what I mean? Word up. Word up.

I'm killing. So, you know, everything is purposeful that we do everything. Yeah, no, yeah, you said it. I got to tell you this documentary is touching all audiences because I work for extra and we did a huge piece on it for our show. So it's reaching everyone, which I think is a testament to you guys and why. And it's so great. There's a moment where, Cuddy, we see you break down

and we see you get emotional in that third part. Can you talk a little bit about what was behind that emotion and what you were feeling? because Van has already expressed what it was to watch it as an audience member, but you were there. You saw things that we weren't even privy to see. And you got so emotional. Can you talk about that? I mean, it was the emotion came from just like, it was like Christ.

You know, I'm real spiritual. So it was like Christ was talking to me through all different ways, like from me meditating and the meditation to be exactly what I need to say and do it. during that moment or reading the Bible verse. And it's telling me exactly what to say to Kanye. And then just the fact that I know that it's coming from Christ. And I felt Donda and I felt my father in that moment too. Like holding me.

You know, it was, you know, and letting me know that everything's going to be all right. So it was all of them emotion and just to be moving in faith and moving that way, you know, knowing that Christ is with you, is that that was more of the emotion and then letting me know that Kanye was going to be going to be all right. You know, we all going to be all right. You know what I'm saying? We're spiritual beings and we never die. You know, that's why Don the spirit has been with us. That's why Benji spirit was with us doing Benji. So it's like, and that's what we've been learning throughout our, throughout making films. We're like, yo, this is bigger than what we're doing. And that's why we say Jesus direct.

And that's why we know that Benji and Don the West and when we do Ernie Barnes story, Bernie Barnes has been with us. And Ernie Barnes, if y'all know, Ernie Barnes, he'd have painted that did the JJ Payton's and Marley. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so we was filming him before he passed.

You know, and he'd been with us since then. Like, he gave us a patent from heaven. Like one of his main paintings he gave us. And that story is incredible. but, you know, just knowing that, knowing that our ancestors, our wedders at all times, man, it feels really good. You know, that was a, that was a really a good cry, you know.

And for us, the goal of this film was really to use these two men's journeys, Cudy and Coy's, you know, and obviously Coney's would have such influence. But how can we use their moments as teachable moments? Not so much we're not trying to make a commercial for Kanye. We're not trying to, like, pin you on a side. It doesn't matter what side you're on. How can we take moments of Cudy's journey in their life, together to give to really show how you can move in your purpose how can you set a goal and

accomplish it obviously the struggles and adversities that come with this with the belief in a higher power that can help you get through these adversities like we believe in god and we truly believe god god just through this life and we're merely just his vessels to do his work you know what i'm saying with our gifts that he's given us but we've tapped into those gifts how can we help you tap into those gifts you know i'm saying so fear cripples us a lot and we don't overcome it and and and hopefully is that can be a testament to to helping people figure out their journey. Yeah, and you can learn from the good and the bad.

It's like the movie that inspired me to do everything that I do is Joejo dancer, Richard Prym. Your life is calling. Yeah. Your life is calling it. And that, you know, when I, when I've seen that movie, I'm like, I'm going to do, I'm going to do like Richard Pry. And so I wanted to do comedy. I'm going to do comedy, you know, but I'm not going to do the drugs.

I'm about to say, Jojo Dancer made you want to do comedy. He was wild. But I knew I knew I can do it. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do what he did, what he did wrong. I'm not going to do. I'm like, okay, if I do comedy and don't do the drugs and don't do this, then who is going to be really nice? So I learned from his mistakes, but not knowing at the time that he wrote,

directed, and produced Jojo dancer, I'm like, oh, God was telling me at that moment what I was going to be doing later, you know, so. Yeah, it's same with this movie. We want people to see this like, okay, I know what not to do. and I know what to do. So there are two hilarious moments in this movie I want to talk about real quick. Two super funny moments. There's a lot of funny moments,

but there are two moments that just I ran them back three or four times. One moment is when Kanye is in the Dominican Republic, and he's working out with a resistance band. And that band is kicking Yeh's ass. Like that band was kicking. I don't know how long, how many sets he had done, but it was good to just see him concerned with his health down there in between creating, he's on the resistance bands.

But the other moment that I know for sure is going to blow up on the internet. Kanye was riding in the car. He is on the phone with his father. He was talking to his dad, and his dad says, he asks his dad something, his dad says, I don't know, son. Maybe write your speech next time. And then Kanye gets this look.

There's this look on Kanye West's face that he gets when he's processing something. There's the look where his eyes, and he's very open to like new information. Even when I was talking to him that time, you can see him listening to me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can see him listening to me. It's not like he just, ah, I'm Kanye West.

Get out of my face. He'll actually listen to what you have to say. And he goes, okay. And he just looks. looks for a second and it's just crazy. And that made me want to ask this question. How did you guys decide because all of those moments are like purely authentic?

How did you guys decide what to keep and what not to show when you have all of this stuff, the stuff with his mother is absolutely beautiful? The first meeting, the first time you see his mother, you get a 100% crystal clear 360 view on why Kanye West is who he is. Absolutely coming from that angel of a woman.

You can see it. But I just wonder with so much stuff, how did you guys as a creative team make the decision? We have to show this. We don't need to show that. We have to show this. We don't need to show that. How was that decision made?

I mean, you know. Rehearsal. Yeah, definitely like what made it easier too is a testament to just like everything we've done before this film. Benji, every project was a rehearsal for this moment. Right now. To put our accomplishments every, all the skills, our style, everything, we've learned, amassed this team of people that we've worked with for prior projects, right?

So we have this big mind now with all these people kind of working on this thing. But then even just our evolutionist filmmakers into screenwriting played a major role. We've been reading a lot about story and understanding just a framework of story, how to build story. So once we align sort of like our protagonist's overall journey and desire, like you have to lock into that. And there's rules to that. Like this is like a hero's journey.

there's rules to when you apply this type of storyline. And so just adhering to that and knowing, like, you have to kill your darlings because they don't move the forward story. And some story forward, and sometimes it's that simple. It's like, this is dope and this could go viral on its own. But in this film, it's derailing us. It's throwing, it's not moving a story forward.

It's got to go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it must be hard. In that first part, there's so, like, I wish we could talk to you guys, literally all day, because there's so many different scenes that I want to just talk about. But one, I thought you had access to so many people and so many places. What I'm just curious to anybody tell you all to stop, get the camera out of my face and stop filming and please tell us who.

And then two, there is a moment when, when Farrell hears through the wire for the first time and you get his reaction. I mean, he has to, well, I don't want to give it away, but you just get his reaction. But he says something to Kanye where he says, keep that same perspective. And as somebody who's been with him from the beginning, do you feel like he really is still adhering to that advice from Farrell? Yeah, yeah. I feel like he definitely listening, you know. And as far as like, as you notice, when we were going into the studio with Farrell,

they was like, got the Kei said, maybe they should turn the cabra off. I'm like, now keep the cabaret rolling. A lot of people didn't tell us to turn that, turn that. that camera off. You know what I mean? It wasn't that. It was more of when we were doing Channel Zero that people would be like, you know, they don't want to do an interview or that, you know, they're sonners. But when we was, with, Yay, it just seemed like everybody just accepted it and adopted it. Because it was new to everybody. People didn't have cameras around like that.

And they wasn't like, why you film this dude? People used to be like, why are you filming Kanye? Because I could have, you know, met that man. I could have got with Jay-Z, like, yo, Jay-Z, let me film you, you know, when Kanye took me in the studio. But I just had a vision and I stuck with that vision and I just knew that it was going to pay off. I think, too, back to what Farrell said, was so key about that moment and what he said. And I think it's a huge testament to Kanye's success and to Cudy's success is because he did listen and he still is listening to that.

He's hungry. He stays hungry and everything he does is that hunger. As he moves from different medium and genres of stuff that he's doing, that same hunger is there. And fashion is the same hunger that he had when he first started music. And this album, it's like he's just doing this. Every time it's like he's doing his first album over again. And he takes that same energy to clothing. He takes it everywhere.

And I really think that's the thing that's making him be super successful. You know what I mean? It's because he's approaching it with the same hunger as if, like, you know, he's the underdog. He's like David Facing Goli every time. Yeah, right. And so what misunderstood, too, because he will always want to do the importance. possible. So somebody said you can't do something. He wants to prove that he can do it. So the worst thing

you can say is, don't run for president. He's like, oh, what? Okay, I'm going to do it and I'm going to show that I can do it because I did it so many times before. He said I couldn't be a rapper. Look, what happened? You said I couldn't be a good big in fashion. Look what happened. So he used that. And, you know,

and that's how he went in. But then, like I say, you might get misunderstood too. And the same, don't wear the red hat. Oh, what? I'm going to wear it. But it ain't good. But I'm going to wear it. you know, so he sometimes gets confusing. You might be reverse engineering and be like, man, I bet you can't take their red head. Right, yeah, you got a reverse.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. On the real. I'm sorry, daring him to do some other things. Yeah. I would do that. That would be, that would be me, but I wasn't around like that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's so many little cameos. There's a shot of Beyonce just looking like a guy. Right. I love how people catch that because it's stuff that we catch here in the edit and we put this together, we see those moments.

But it's dope to see other people, especially like on black Twitter's the best. Like, black Twitter, just how they rally around this and what they're pointing out is amazing. Like, Beyonce is just a girl in the hall. I mean, she's Beyonce, don't get me wrong, but it's like, wow. Even seeing that is inspiring.

You can go from being in the hall and she was already to Beyonce, don't jump off. She was Beyonce, but that would not happen now, is all I'm saying. And another thing that was interesting is shout out to all my people who I recognize. Like, shout out to Shaka, who from Rod Nation, who he played all falls down for her. And she didn't nod her head at all. Like Kanye is going through that. That is one of my favorite scenes because he's going through.

He's playing all falls down. for people and they like taking calls and do it's just it's so nuts you got to stick with what it is that you're doing. All right. Now, I would not be being responsible if I did not ask these next couple of questions. Okay. I am no longer a Kanye West fan. He just makes it too hard.

I just got to be real. Like I'm agnostic. I don't have any animus towards the brother. He's like that he's like a family member like a cousin who. you love from a distance and all you really want to see is them doing it. But there are things that Ye is doing right now. Some of the stuff where it looks like he might be harassing Kim, some of the Pete Davis and stuff,

obviously some of the political stuff that we've talked about that I, being somebody who tries to do better, I'm not by any means of perfect man. I just can't condone it. And being that this documentary is coming out when he is in the throes of what it seems like one of these week, two week long rants, how does

that guy, how does that affect you guys as filmmakers? And also knowing that he made a little noise about the fact about this documentary in and of itself and almost painted it in a negative light before coming back around to it.

How does any of the current conversation about Kanye West good, bad, and different shape you guys' release of this? And, And is there any part of it that you feel like overshadows the release of the documentary? I don't think any part of it overshadows. It really feels like it's hard to explain, but there's a feeling that this is bigger than us.

It's a spiritual feeling over the need of this. And it feels like it's just like because of the pure intent like who he said, of where we're coming from with it. I don't know, man. It just feels like there's bigger forces of good that are going to triumph all this. All of this is necessary. Like, it's all necessary. Everything is necessary to be playing out the exactly way it is,

to be seen a certain way so that it all makes sense at the end. And I can't tell you what that sense is going to be, but I have a profound belief it's going to be amazing. You know what I'm saying? And it's going to be good on every level, not just for him, but for humanity in general, for the inspiration that's going to bring.

You know what I'm saying? I feel like, you know, we keep a foot in a certain world and we keep a foot in a regular, like a simple world. It's a regular life. where we're from where your mom just tells you to go take trash out, right? And there's another world where I think you get completely removed from that. And it's just, to me, that's Hollywood damn near, you know what I'm saying? And I think this film does a good job of kind of showing both.

You know what I mean? I'm not saying one's better than the other, but they just, they all have their pros and cons. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then when things happen on my end with, you know, Kanye asks for final cut, you know, you'd be disappointed for the split second, but then it's like, I just say, Trust God, period. That's all I say.

I say, trust God, period. Nobody bigger than God. You got us, you had us, and I know it's going to work out. Even with what are you doing now? I'm like, trust God, period. Every time I say that, things just get better. You know, like God does make things better, but you have to, like, believe that, with no doubt.

In faith, there's no doubt in faith. Did he ask you guys for final cut? Yeah, he asked for final cut. How do you, oh, he did it online. He didn't call you. ask for it. They had the old conversation. It was like, yeah, it was like, I got the message before he posted all the messages.

I'm like, oh, my God. How do you tell her now? Tell me, yeah, tell me about that. Rudy's great at telling everybody no. You got to realize, we've done, we've dealt with every big personality mobile you probably could possibly deal with in a capacity of business through music videos of a partnership. So it's like there's no new personality or like, these people, people, they bleed like

we bleak, like it ain't, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it got you like a little brother, too, but it was on my birthday with the, uh, tag from the like, like, kind of even on final approval. And I'm like, huh? I'm talking about my birthday, January 18. Right. I'm reading this and it just, I almost faint. Like, what?

Like, oh, wait a minute, right? And at the same time, I'm reading this, now mind you, you know, I have some drinks, you know, I'm nice, you know what I mean? Right. Let's get nice. I'm like, oh, I'm nice. I'm having fun. Bain read this.

I felt like I bought the fate. And then here they come with cake. Happy birthday. I don't know. It was insane. And then from that moment, I said, wait, trust God. Live in the now.

Like, look what's happening to you right now. They're coming with cake. All these people love you that's in the room. I'm like, it's going to work out. It's going to work out. And I just, they're not just enjoying myself for the rest of the night. but and it worked out you know and it's working out it's going to keep working out that we just got to know that

you just got to say trust god period and you can't take and you can't take anything personal like I don't like you know we don't know the situation of where exactly he's coming from we don't know who's in his ear we don't know anything you know what I'm saying um all we just got to believe is everything is going to work out in uh in the best interest of the project at the end of the day because we know what this why this project is being done you know what I mean and we know what the impact is going to make so We were talking a little bit about this before you guys came on about as you're watching the progression of Kanye, you're seeing his circle and the people that are surrounding him change. And like, Kudi, we see in the circle that you get, I mean, we see at some point in the film that you get cut out as well. And you've said certain things in this interview, like you're, you know, you're not afraid to say no.

You would have told him something if you were around. I'm just wondering, do you think that that was purposeful? not because as you're watching it, it seems like, oh, he got to a certain level. He wanted, you know, he talks about Hype Williams. I want Hype Williams for this. Do you think it was that? Or do you think it is because you know him

in a way that other people don't? And you can hold him accountable in certain ways. Yeah, for sure. And Chigua, you were really good. That's amazing that you bring that up because of the conversations that we've had over years. You know, Cudy, and the reason why this film is so special, it's not so much his prowess skills as a director.

as a person, is a type of person that creates a space for you. And when you enter his space, there's no way that you can be fake. You know what I'm saying? Because he's so accommodating to you. It's like going to a room, a therapy room. You ain't going to lie to your therapy. You're not going to lie to a therapist. You know what I'm saying?

You get uncomfortable. So a lot of times you just avoid if you're not ready for therapy, you don't go to it. So I feel like that's like the relationship. If you're not ready to be real or be up front or be held accountable, you're not going to sit in front of Cootie or chill with them. You know what I'm saying? And so, but when you get in front of them, we get these amazing moments, these vulnerable moments of Kanye that are pretty consistent from the first time

Cuddy puts the camera on them to the last, to Kanye now. You know what I mean? And so I don't know, I can't speak for Cony as to why, you know, Cudy wasn't around so much. You know, I could have a theory and say maybe it's because it was easier to do certain things when Cudy's not there. You know what I mean? Like you said, you might have somebody to hold you accountable for stuff.

So that's just a thought and it's a great. I think it's a good thought. So I think the power was the beat, too, you know, don't want nobody with any type and influence when they want to pull them a certain direction. I remember when we was first started and he blew up and he wanted to go with me to do something. I'm like, yeah, come on, man, we're going to go do this. We're going to cut up this DVD and he was ready to go. But then they were like, oh, we got something that we need them to do.

And I'm like, huh, yeah, but he want to do this. And then they pulled me to the side and said, yo, Kanye is not the same Kanye. I'm like, what you mean? He is the same. Did he want to go with me? So we're going. And they was mad because they had some money playing over there. You know what I mean?

So I think it's all of that. I think it's a combination of all of that. But that's why we can't take it. Like there was a point definitely like I don't know I took a person. And my whole passion in life was to do music videos, right? And so when we were hitting off the videos through the while, we always had this ambition of it to be like Brian Harbor was, with outcasts. Like we'll do all these videos together.

You know what I'm saying? Especially since like we did the first video to really bring him into the world. And so you're thinking like, man, now you popped. We're going to get the best video he's done through the wire. Yeah. We get through the wire. Jesus walks two words. And we're thinking like, okay, now we did this together to hustle to get these big videos. Now when the big budget is come, we're good.

But it wasn't that way. You know what I'm saying? So that was disappointed. But then, you know, as being young, you know, you take it a certain way. You kind of take it personal, but then getting older. you know what? We don't know what the factors are. We don't know if other people came in, in his ear, squeezing us out.

There were other agenda. Other people are trying to get their people on. So it's a bigger machine at that point. You know what I'm saying? So we're just lucky that to me, it was for us to meet each other. We've had an amazing career together. You know what I'm saying? I've learned so much for cooties of a bigger brother.

So it's worked out perfectly. You couldn't play. I wouldn't do it. I would do it exactly the same way if you played itself all over again. You know what I mean? It was interesting in seeing, because I went through the, wire came out, I always wonder how y'all did that because like

I didn't know where y'all were getting the footage from. Like when through the wire came out, like when we see the lady that's dancing in the thing and she's like I'm like yo, like where's all this coming from? Like this dude just came out.

You know what I mean? We have been DeRay in the car. Yeah. Yeah. By time through the wire had came out, hip hop heads knew who Kanye West was because the beats was everywhere. But as a rapper, we were just getting to know him. I'm like, yo, man, how much they, like, what is this? Like, how do they shoot this? All right. Last thing I'll say to you guys, this is my last one, is I appreciate you guys for giving them back to me for a second. And I appreciate it. Seeing that stuff connected me to a

time of my life when I was excited about this new young artist who was speaking to me. You know, I used to listen to hip hop. I listen to the hip hop music. I still listen to it. It's all I listen to. But I listen to the music and someday I'll be like, yo, if you ain't thug,

nigga, you ain't shit. And I'd be like, damn, well, I guess I ain't shit. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

If you ain't hustling, if you broke. And I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, I work at Best Buy, you know?

Right. And then all of a sudden, there was this guy that came out of nowhere that was talking about working at the gap. And what he was going to do with his future. And his relationship.

with God and all of these different things. And I've never gravitated or identified with anybody like that ever and haven't since. To be honest with you. And having since. And I'm from South Louisiana. So we were in the water when he said what he said on the thing. And everybody. He was a hero.

Everyone. We were in the water when he said that. So, you know, I say it all the time. things are what they are now, but I appreciate getting a look back. And I don't want to keep having hope in Kanye because it's just so exhausted sometimes. It's like, damn, like y'all played the Sunday service thing

where he was doing that whole thing. And when he was doing that, everybody got excited because he was like, oh, shit, it's back. It's Kanye. And then, uh, uh, But I really appreciate the documentary for that. It was sad and sobering, but it was also full of life and very, very inspired. So if Rachel doesn't have anything else.

Hey, man, real quick, don't put your hope in Kanye. Put your hope in God. That's it. Period. You know what I mean? And everything will work out. Kanye going to be what do you do? And that hope is in God and we'll see what happens next, you know.

That's worth. It's so true. I just have one thing to say. It's funny how Kanye hit people in a different way, depending on where you were in your life. For me, I think the blueprint is Jay-Z's best album. Debatable, I know, but that's my favorite.

So I was, so I fell in love with Kanye just from the album, period. And then he came out with college dropout and I was in college and I'm a Delta. So you know, when you're like, Alpha, SEP, Omega. Like we were filling that in college. So it just, I was like, oh, I can relate to him. And then obviously the religious aspect as well.

some people are saying that this documentary is a love letter to old Kanye West. Is that how you guys see it? And if not, how is it? I don't see it that way. I see it kind of like I just see it as this overarching story that's using these two guys as a vessel to really tell a bigger story about pursuing your passions. You know what I'm saying? We didn't make, I think as far as it being a love letter, it is what each story. It is what it is.

It's just that's what it was. That was a relationship there. that was filled with love, you know what I'm saying? Part three definitely isn't a love letter if you see, when you see the part three version. So I think a lot of people, it's just a real depiction of a real relationship and a real journey. And we're using that to inspire people to see in life,

how you can just fight through fear with faith in God, what it can get you through and how you can accomplish these goals. These two fought against the odds. Statistically, they shouldn't have made it. Statistically, they shouldn't be in the position. None of it should be in the position that we're in. And definitely not kind yet. You know what I'm saying?

Word. And everybody's a genius. You know what I mean? That's the, we call it genius, not because we think Kaya is a genius. No, everybody is a genius. Everybody has a genius in them. You know, you hear about Albert Einstein and I'm as geniuses, but you got, you got Boogartee Washington.

You got Martin Luther King, you know, you got. George Washington. They are. Yeah, they just don't get. Grandville, words. You know what I'm saying? They don't get the title. I mean, you guys, like, it's anybody that's doing what they love because that's going to be.

Chill out. No, I'm serious. Like, how many of you can count on a finger to get to the level you're doing? It's a small percentage of people in the world that are successful at the level that you are at what you're doing. You're exceptional. So you're ingenious. You know what I'm saying? Anything you do exceptionally, but you have to put in the work.

You have to love what you're doing in order to achieve that. With no question, you don't get there by just you don't fall into that. You know what I'm saying? Next time I see Ye, I'm going to say, yo, Kudin Chiquet say I'm on the same level of Jesus issue. Oh, my gosh. And watch what happened. We're going on the bottle.

You guys. He posted that about that everybody's a genius too. He did. He did. Two real quick, man. Y'all, let me show you all these. This is Max, I added it right here. Max, what's up?

What's up? What's up? How are you doing? Hey, how you doing? Great, fantastic work, you guys. Yes. Fantastic work. Fantastic work.

Fantastic word. Be honest with you guys, I think you, I think y'all got a lot of hardware coming to y'all. I'll just be real, I don't see anything. I don't see anything coming out fucking with what you guys did. I think it was amazing. I think it was,

I can't wait to see what the next thing is. I loved Benji. Loved Benji. Loved it. They say that it's a tough watch. And it's sad. It is. It's sad.

But it's moving. So I would recommend everyone, and everyone, genius, Benji, whatever else you guys got coming out. We are very happy to have had you guys

today. We're happy for your work. Thank you for having to. We appreciate you extending this platform to us to get out message across. Of course. Thank you.

Thank you. Appreciate y'all. Yes. Take care. Peace. Peace. This episode is brought to by Weather Tech.

Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips, yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step

into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-bought place. They're all jammed inside, can of Nass energy, high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage, and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Nass energy and get after it. All right, that was fantastic. Did it change it all? Did it change it? Did it change your heart? No, you're the one who said that you, you have changed how you feel about Kanye. I mean, yes, I understand your sentiments, but I don't know. It took me on an emotional

ride. I'm telling you, I loved watching that first part of the documentary. And I did get sad towards the end. But I really wonder if the documentary will change Kanye. Like there's something about going back and watching, but there's something about going back and watching yourself. It's easy to forget. It's easy to remove yourself. As we're watching it, you can see how far removed Kanye is from where he started. So I wonder if it, and think about it. And think about it. Think about Cudy's journey with Kanye. Yeah. Right?

He was with him. He wasn't. But there's something about their relationship where he keeps going back to Cudy. So maybe it will. I don't know. Maybe I know you're in a hopeless place. Maybe I'll have enough hope for both of us if that can happen. We'll see.

Not sure that I'm a Kanye West fan anymore. Don't think that I am, but I am certainly fans of Cudy and Chiquet. That was a very inspiring interview. Love those guys. It was. It was. All right. You go to Coachella this year.

If you go to Coachella this year, I've never been. You've never been to Coachella. If you go to Coach and stage coach, no mask, no mask, no vaccination, no positive test, you can come in that bitch

with a cough and you could dance your ass off. They don't give a fuck at Coachella. Have you been? To Coachella before? Yes. Yes, I have. I haven't. I feel like I missed the mark.

Yeah. You know, at this point, it's like, I don't feel like driving all the way down there in a crowd of people. Yeah. I just,

You're Rachel Lindsay. No, no, unless I'm like, have, anyways, I'm definitely not going now. I don't want to be around that many people with that many, no restrictions. I'm just not ready for that. April is tomorrow. It's tomorrow. That's just a little too much for me. I mean, I guess I could go and wear a mask, but it's hot.

It's hot. I'm wearing a mask out there. Did I tell you about me wearing my mask when I was boxing? I tell you about that? No. I was wearing my mask while I was boxing and I had the N95 mask on and I tried to breathe in and just sucked a whole fucking mask full of sweat. Ew, gross. Sweat all in my mouth.

It was disgusting. Yeah. And I told Phil's that we have to do one-on-ones because I can't be in the gym with people. And at the same time, I can't have the mask on and just suck the sweat. It's disgusting. That was, yeah, that's, that's, that's, I mean, you know, y'all have fun at Coachella. I won't be going. I will definitely not be there.

It's too hot. I'm too big for that now. When I lose weight, I'll go. Let's see. Now, this is interesting about the Coachella thing because I think that this is signaling that a lot of the restrictions are about to get loosened up. Are you ready for these restrictions to be loosened up? How do you feel about this? The mask mandates are going away.

They already gone. Yeah. I still wear my mask. forgot where I was yesterday, but I still had on my mask. I don't know if I'm ready, quite ready for that. I think it should be optional. If you want to wear your mask, you can wear it. If you don't, you don't.

But I have the option to protect myself. So that's kind of where I am right now. Well, of course it's going to be optional. Nobody's going to tell you you can't wear a mask. Well, you're correct, correct. But I guess I'm at the point where if people don't want to, I'm okay with that. I'm going to wear mine.

Huh. Wow. So you're like a like a, like a, weird Trumper now. Sure. If that's what you want to, if that's what you want to call me, I like, but, but the thing is, you have right over your own personal being. So if I want to put on my mask, I'm going to wear it.

My body, my choice. Rachel, you're going down. No. You're like, you're going. No. I do think that in certain places, like I think I'm still, I'm still for it like in the air, an airport, that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, I think at this.

point. So Danny Lee's brother, I don't know, we didn't talk about this. I want to talk about this real quick. Do you? I do, because I have a take here. Danny Lee's brother, we all spend like a couple of minutes here, is suing the baby. Now, I don't know if you guys know, but Danny Lee's brother and the baby had a bowling alley fight.

Stupidest fucking fight I ever fucking saw, right? I want people to know, the bowling lane is slippery. do not retreat to the bowling lane. Right. I don't know how many times you motherfuckers have bowled, but if you bowl and you step beyond that little line, you will slip your dumb ass down. The lane is covered in oil to grease the ball.

All right. These motherfuckers look like idiots, all of them slipping around like cartoon characters and banana pill while they're trying to throw hands at each other at a fucking bowling alley. But I'll tell you something about this. Danny Lee's brother, his name is Brandon Bills. He's now suing the baby.

He's suing him for the fight. I am 100% teamed the baby in this. 100%. Danny Lee's brother said when the baby and Danny Lee were going back and forth, which I did not agree with the baby in. Right. Thought it's fucked up. Right.

But Danny Lee's brother said to the baby, baby. It's on site. Do people know what that means? That means when I see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. Okay. In the video that I saw, Danny Lee's brother makes a move towards the baby, the baby hits him. Well, what the fuck? What am I supposed to think? You told me that when you saw me, you were going to beat me the fuck up. You said it was on site. Well, we see each other. True. True. And what was the, the baby's supposed to do. Wait. Don't go around threatening people.

Now, the fact that all the baby's crew jumped in, that maybe you could sue for because he didn't give him the fair one. You know what I mean? The baby's crew jumped in. His motherfucker's out there slipping around. There was a lady out there slipping around trying to beat up Brandon Bills, trying to put the beats on Brandon. But don't fucking threaten me and then come in my face like it's going to be all good.

If you threaten me and say it's on site, you got to give me a phone call or a text message. or come out in public and say I didn't mean that. Because when I see you, he's about to get it popping. What the fuck? What's the basis of the lawsuit? Like, I just, it's going to get thrown out. This is ridiculous.

You're wasting your time and your money. Move on. The moral of the story is this whole thing is stupid. I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear about anything to do with Danny Lee and DaBaby together. Like separately fine. You want to talk about Danny Lee separately fine.

Her brother, fine. The baby, fine. But I don't want to hear about them. is such a necessary drama. So stupid. What if Danny Lee and the baby ran on a ticket together for 2024, would you want to see them? Would you talk

about them together then? Dan, no. What if Danny Lee and the baby co-directed? There is no what if. I'm saying, though. I'm saying there are definitely situations where we would have to talk about Danny Lee and the baby. Not if they're running for president. What's another one?

Like, let's say if Danny Lee and the baby directed an award-winning film about sheltered dogs. Dogs that were in shelters. You didn't have to bring dogs. You really didn't have to bring in the dogs. You didn't have to do that. If they did that, that would be something positive.

You know, that's a weak spot for both of us. I know. I know. I know. Danny Lee and the baby present Copper Story, the movie. I wouldn't give him the rights. All right.

Our favorite mayor, Mayor, Eric Adams, has met with drill rappers in New York. He has clarified his comments about drill rap. He met with drill rappers in New York.

He said the rappers came into a meeting with a lot of energy and were concerned that the mayor wanted to ban drill rap. He said that he had a great conversation with the group, which included,

Fivio Forren, Mano, he reassured that he doesn't want to ban the genre. He said he's concerned about particular drill rap videos in which artists directly attack and threaten their rivals

with violence. Violent people who are using drill rapping to post who they killed and then antagonize the people who they are going to kill is what the problem is. Mano has released Mano, shout out to Mano. Pose of the short video of the media in his Instagram

account and the rappers gathering with Mayor Adams. 1130 on a Tuesday night. It's been a lot of talk about drill rap, drill music, New York City, connecting violence with the culture. And I just wanted to create a conversation with the mayor. We brought Fabio here.

We got young beloved here. We got Sloan Bucks here. We got Bleasy here to talk about, you know, what's really happening. So the man could get a real perspective and a real understanding of what real rap is. And so that, you know, we could have some real dialogue and really start to really make things happen. and we're going to roll out something together on the whole conversation and we're looking forward to and I appreciate you, man. Definitely. So, yeah, I want to clarify some comments that I made on the last podcast too.

Okay. Give me some latitude to do this. Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so this is my clarification about the things I said. My clarification is I made every fucking word that I said and I stared on at 1,000%. Okay, this is my clarification for everyone. So I was perusing the Reddit. And as I perused the Reddit,

it said that our Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay, the new Tipper Gore. You remember Tipper Gores' Crusade against metal back in the 80s? Against what? Against metal, the different types of music back in the 80s. It was metal.

It was also Uncle Luke. It was also a bunch of other stuff like that. So I thought about it. that for a second. I thought about what it means to to kind of be in a position where you're a little older and you're critiquing

music that is coming out now. It seems like you're a little long in the tooth. Now, I want to specifically echo what the mayor said, but I also want to put it in

context for you guys. Okay. So it was interesting that the Tipper Gore example was brought up, right? Let's look at some of the people that the religious right was going after in the 80s when they were talking about metal music. They were talking about people like Black Sabbath led by Ozzy Osbourne. They were talking about bands like Dio led by Ronnie Jays. D.O. They were talking about bands like Twisted Sister led by D. Snyder.

They were talking about bands like Kiss, by Paul Stanley, Gene Simmons, people like that. They were talking about all of these bands, right? You know what all of those guys have in common? All of those guys have named, all of those metal guys? Yeah. What? They're white. Nah, there's something else.

There's something else. They're alive. All of those guys that had their music being criticized. All of those guys that had their music being sort of, put on display in front of everybody and having it legislated whether or not it was decent or decent for the kids or satanic or satanic. They survived that. Yep.

Their fathers and grandfathers and Alice Cooper plays golf and all of that stuff. They were hell raisers when they were young. And now a lot of them, some of them might be out of here, you know, life works in weird ways. But most of them are kicking around and doing their thing. True. See, that's not what the fuck we're talking about. And it's bothering me that people don't get, that aren't getting the picture of what we're talking about.

There's a song called Beatbox remix, okay? Beatbox remix. It went viral, viral on the internet. Okay. The song, in the song, it is celebrating the murder of a kid named Corbin. The song is about Julio Fulio, and some of the guys down in Jacksonville

and went viral on TikTok where people are talking about the song. Corbin, where it says, the line where it says, where's Corbyn, that is referring to a kid named Corbyn Johnson, whose body was reported missing in 2018 and who was then discovered in 2019.

There are two different factions in Jacksonville going back and forward. His mother, Melissa Jackson, had to listen to a song where the death of her son is being made fun of to antagonize a rival gang and everybody on TikTok is singing it. So her actual child, it was a TikTok challenge that went viral.

Julio Fulio featured CoJack. The song is called Beatbox remix. Okay. The Who I Smoke song that we're talking about when they put the names up, those are actual dead people. We're not talking about a genre. genre of rap. We're talking about a trend in rap that originated in drill. And it's got to be

worth talking about. I can give a fuck less about whether or not people have a problem with my stance on that because I'm a 41-year-old black man who cares about culturally how the lives of young black men are being protected both outside and inside this culture. Everyone can say whatever they want to say on a record. Everyone has the right to get on a record. Everyone has the right to get on a record and talk about whatever they want to talk about. That does not mean we have to culturally accept certain things. About 10 years ago, a song dropped with Lil Wayne and Rick Ross. The song was called You Don't Even Know, right?

Rick Ross says, in the line of the song, put Molly in her drink. She didn't even know. Everybody drew a line. Everybody drew a line. everybody said, hey, not going to fuck with that. Artistically, is your right to talk about date rape in a song? But culturally, what we don't want to do is have lyrics in a song that normalize something that ghastly. Rap is rife with misogyny and violence against women already.

But the direct act of saying, hey, I put Molly in somebody's drink, she even know about it, and boasted on the song, we have to draw a line right there. And we did, okay? What I am saying is rapping about violence in your community. That's part of hip hop. We come from violent places. Rapping about some of the other ways that you might treat people or some of the things. All of that's a part of it.

I get that. But I'm talking about the specific antagonization, which I said in the last podcast, of people by bringing up their dead brothers, their dead cousins, their dead family members, which then perpetuates real life violence, direct violence, not violence out there in the ether where we desensitize something and then make it violent. I'm talking about, we heard this nigger diss our dead, homie, we got to catch him and kill him. And it shocks me that in what we talked about on the last podcast, I brought up the fact that there are casualties in and around this as well.

There are innocent people that have been shot in the line of fire around this as well. And people even give a fuck. They're talking about what people should be able to put in rap records. I get it. I'm with you. What I'm talking about is whether or not we are at least deserved a conversation about a troubling trend in a genre of rap music. Grow the fuck up.

Like seriously, grow all the way up. All the way up. Dead black boys. Give a fuck about it. I was 25 once. I was 26 once. I was 23 once. I was 21 once.

Why didn't want anyone telling me what I should not be doing? I get that. I understand that. I care whether or not you guys live or die. I'm not going to take away your right to make whatever music you want to make. But I'm going to tell you right now, if your music is celebrating the deaths of people who you've actually killed, I'm not fucking with you. And I'm going to encourage other people not to fuck with you because I don't think we ought to be doing that.

And something else. Like, there's a specificity here that changes this argument. Like, song comes out, bitches ain't shit. We rocked to that song, all my childhood, right? People love that show. Bitches ain't shit, but a hoaxing tricks. Terrible, terrible mess. message, right? What if that song would have been Janet Jackson ain't shit? What if that song

would have been Whitney Houston ain't shit but a bitch and a tray? What if that song would have specifically addressed an actual person, right? And not just been some weird commentary, some terrible commentary that we already need to got to do away with. What if it's actually somebody's actual pain? Isn't there a point where we have to say enough is enough? Yeah. So, Miss me, to quote Rachel, with the discussion and the talk about what we should be doing in lieu of talking about these messages, what we should be protesting for equal wages, we should be out there doing all. We already do that. We're going to do this too. I'm not fucking tolerated.

I think it's wrong. I'm not throwing these brothers, these young brothers away. They're doing the best they can. but the reality is that we need to encourage them to do better. Grow up for real. All right. Mailback. I love it.

I have nothing to say to that. No, you are so right. Mailbag. Let's go. Mailback. Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback.

Write us with your queries And we'll chime in Different underscore Hughes Ask, have you ever been catfished? No Yes, by food Never in the other way, but certainly by foods. Wait, wait, wait, as in like you thought it was going to be

Something that it wasn't? Saw pictures of the food online, order the food. Okay. Food looks nothing like it. Very upset. I'm sure that's happened to everybody. We just wouldn't term it as being catfish. That's hilarious.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Have you been catfish, Rach? No. I'm not. But ghosted, not catfished. Who ghosted you? It's in the book.

Oh, I haven't got to that yet. We're cool now, though. I found them. You found? You found the person. We're really cool now. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what? I can tell you something about the book, Rach. I won't listen to the audio book. Okay. I'm going to listen to it on my way to my speaking engagement today because I want to hear the emotion in your voice and some of this stuff. I want to hear how you read it. Okay. You know what?

I think a lot of people have enjoyed the audiobook. Yeah. People have been talking about it. people have been talking about they hit me up and they go I like the we like the audio book we don't know what Rachel's talking about miss me with that

in stores now next question all right Jasmine Q asks top three girl singing groups what are they for me

oh race you want to take this one first no no no go first I got think about it I got think about it top three girls singing groups in vogue SWV SWV for me for me

for sure And then that last one is like I'm going to go TLC. But if I was ranking them in order, my favorite girl singing groups of all time, it's going to be SWV in vogue TLC. All right. Wow. Okay. The Supremes. Yeah.

You're not listening to the. Shout out to Tracy. You're not. The Supremes are legends. They shouldn't even be in this conversation. But you're not. But it's girl groups. You're not queuing up to the Supremes.

Actually, I listen, I constantly listen to a Motown playlist. So don't tell me what I listen to. So the Supremes. So the Supremes, he mad because he didn't think about it. Supremes. We'll never put it down there. In Vogue. Uh-huh.

And I'm going to go with Destiny's Child. Okay. Destiny's Child. I don't listen to them like that. I think, to be honest with you. I did. I think SWV has better music than Destiny's Child. No, no.

I think it's just an air. Like, I like Destiny's Child. I even thought about Escape for a second. I like, I wouldn't have put TLC in, but there's a, I like to relate music to a time period. And Destiny's Child defines an entire moment time in my life. So I got to go with them. But to me, if you compare,

Disney Child has more hits, don't get me wrong. But if you compare like, Bill's, Bills, Bills to Weak or downtown. You literally pick. You pick the best of SWV and a mediocre song from Destiny's Child. So a mediocre song from Destiny's,

Bills, Bills, Bills is a mediocre Destiny's child song. That's a hit. But like when you're talking about singing like weak, that defines SWV. No. Bills Bills Bills. He has a lot of songs that define them.

But weak is what defines them. Come on. That's the biggest hit. All right. Let's go. Next one. Right. Staying in the music category. Rach Solo wants to know what is your favorite white girl jam?

Examples. Call me maybe unwritten everywhere, etc. My favorite white girl jam. Sarah Borellas, I'm not going to write you a love song. Love that joint. That's a great, great choice. I'm not going to write you a love song. Because you ask for it.

Because you need one. I'm not going to ride to. It's a good one. I have several, though. Also, her song, Gravity, phenomenal. Oh, I've never heard anything else from her. Go listen to Gravity. I have a lot.

I like, I like, uh. See, I like more like the eight. I'm thinking like a Melissa Etheridge type song, maybe even a, what's going on. Come to my window. Come on. You like it. Lay by the moon Come on to my window

It's got to be something like that Like I can rock out to Maybe like an Alanis Morset type song There's got to be an Avril Levine in there I like Annie Lennox Little Bird Look up to the city streets

And by Away from here I wish I could just down down. Y'all make sure you all watch this on video. Trudy, can we get a gift of this? Can we get a gift of this? Also, I'm going to go out. Shout out to my 90s country music.

There's got to be a Shania Twain, any man of mine in there. That's good, too. What about the one about what's her face? Who's married to Tim McGraw? She had a jam. What was that one called? This kiss? Amazing.

Had everybody in the dictionary looking up words? This kiss. It's unflappable. What about? And then there's one more. There's so many you guys. The Celine Dion one.

What was it? My heart will go on. No, not that one, the fast one. Come on, man. It's a mid-tipo joint. It's a A fast Celine Dion song? It's a mid-tempo one.

Oh, this is going to bother me. It's like, I feel like I know. It's a... It's all the... And that's the way it is. Oh. And that's the way...

Okay. That's the way it is. That's the way it is. Saline, there's a number. Y'all, we could do this all day. We could. That's a great question. It was a lot.

It's a lot, man. It's a lot. I like, what's not paramour? The fucking name is the group. But we do like Paramore. I don't know it's a guy last time you called you called

Paramore Evanescence Wake me up inside wake me up Is that what you're thinking of? That's how that's evidence. Is there another question? That's it. Donnie what else we got?

Come on, let's do it. All right. Lins Manion S. If you were a housewife, what would your tagline be? I feel like we've answered this before. I'm not doing that. All right.

Baker, mentality wants to know what are your enagram number any anyagram any a gram okay if you don't know you have you taken and find out and share in the next time i don't know what that means what does that mean van should take the quiz we will not answer it yes i know mine and i know my wing it's like a better version of the meyers briggs test do you know your myers briggs test i did it i did this one time for calica i got to figure it out i don't know i don't like shit like that makes me feel too vulnerable um it's a no i've never seen a personality test more than that's on point than your anyogram matter fact everybody take i will send you out the links everybody here trudy and donnie do you know your

numbers i know don't because you didn't know how to pronounce it trudy do you know yours i don't we're all going to take the test and find out what number we are and we're going to for whoever asked that question we're going to come back and we're going to revisit it okay if rachel says it we do it all right do you have an unexpected lie of the week? No. No. No.

Neither do I. I got to go, man. I got to go to this speaking engagement. I got to get out of here. Do well on your speaking engagement. Drive safely. I will. They're going to be so excited for you. What are you speaking on? I don't know. Probably con here.

Okay. Sorry. You know what I'm saying? Van, van, van, man, let's talk about different black issues. Yeah, cool, cool. Nice. Dude, what was Kanye? Like, fuck you.

Just give me my $10,000. Anyway. Plus travel expenses. Plus travel expenses. Oh, no, but it's not going to be like that. Actually, I'm speaking today. It'll be already done by the time this is over with the kids at Chapman University. Shout out to Dr. Hobson, the guys out there in Chapman University.

I can't wait to go speak to them. It won't be like that. But a lot of times it is like that. So I'm hoping to have a good experience. So I'll catch you guys up on that tomorrow. Take the de caps on. Take the cap so on, but do not stop learning. I am Van Lathen Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.