Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Extremely Likable Tracee Ellis Ross, Plus ‘No Jumper’ Disappoints

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Van and Rachel discuss a hip-hop culture podcast giving a platform to an antisemitic, white supremacist, neo-Nazi who’s saying “never mind” about all that stuff (15:19). Then, cultural icon Tracee Ellis Ross joins to discuss her new podcast, ‘I Am America’ (1:29:34), her memorable characters (1:42:09), and her time working with Eddie Murphy (1:45:41).  Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Tracee Ellis Ross Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warrior. What is up? Howe Learning is on is I, Van Lacey Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Rachel Lynn Lindsay. That's me. Big show today. We got Tracy Ellis Ross on the show.

Woo-hoo. Fantastic interview. Yeah, she's great. It's great. She's great. You like her. I love her. I'm a big fan.

So, you know, it was really great to talk with her. No one dislikes her. Everyone likes Tracy. That is so true. I don't know how many celebrities you can say that about, but everybody likes her. I feel like everybody wants to be her friend. She has a 100% curating.

She's like everyone loves her. But you know why that is too? She's played characters that you see yourself in. Right? When I watch girlfriends, I see a lot of myself in Joan, or I know a Joan. You know what I mean? And so like that makes you feel.

feel it's like reality TV, you feel like you know that person too. So I feel like that adds to it in addition to just who she is as a person. Speaking of reality TV, I met Nick Bial last night. Couldn't wait to say that, could you? Now, I didn't know you would know who he is. Because you didn't watch, you didn't watch when I was on his season. You're not well-versed in Bachelor Nation stuff. So why would I just assume that you know who he is? Because I'm aware of pop culture I can't name all the bachelors, right? But I can name certain ones.

Would you like to play a game where Van tries to name as many bachelors off the top of his head as possible? I don't think you could name because you're going to name more recent ones. You can't name seven. I can't name seven bachelors. Okay, let's try to name seven bachelors.

Bachelors or bacheloretts, right? Bachelors. Oh, you just want to do bachelors? Oh, you want to give me... I don't even think you can name five. Five bachelors. I can't name five bachelors, you don't think? No.

Okay. Nick? Mm-hmm. Juan Pablo. Oh, damn. Okay, you can. Jesse Palmer? Damn it.

Aaron Rogers is a little brother. No, and he's not a bachelor. He was chosen. So go back to three. Okay, so that's three. Okay. So it's Nick, one Pablo.

Mm-hmm. I said Jesse Palmer. Did I say Jesse Palmer? Yes. Yes. You said Jesse Palmer. that's three. Matt James.

Okay. One more. Are you looking at your phone? No. I'm not. I swear to God. My hands are up. Five, four.

Hold away, wait, wait. Pete the pilot. Pilot Pete. You got it. You got it. Pilot Pete. Okay, let's do bachelor's.

All right. That was five. Okay. Tasha, Claire. Damn. Rachel Lindsay. Tasia Claire

Rachel Lindsay Buzz girl Who's the vibrator girl? Who was the vibrator girl? Who was the vibrator girl? Tasia Claire Rachel Lindsay I know more bachelorets than this

I don't know what to say. Damn it I can't name anymore. Who was the vibrator girl? Who was the first one? The first bachelorette ever? Yeah. I don't know. Trista.

Still married? Oh, I was like, everybody remembered then. I knew it. I didn't even watch then. Katie is the vibrator girl. Katie, then the black lady was on there too

because they did a two. Michelle. Who was there last night? Michelle was there last night. I didn't see her. You probably don't know who she was. Last night. I saw Taylor.

Taylor was there. From Big Brother. No, Taylor. Didn't Taylor from the Bachelorette? No, she's from. She won big brother. First black woman to win Big Brother. Wait a minute.

I'm confused now because, you know what? I did see the Black Lady last night. I just got her confused for somebody else. Okay. That was Michelle. And there was a Taylor. They were together a lot. And Taylor won Big Brother.

Rachel had a book event last night. It's very special. Okay. And thank you for coming. The problem. Like, we went to the book event for real. love. Tell us what the book is about. Okay. Real love is a book about exploring the what if. It's a moment in my life that I always

check myself with. So in real life, you know, I said yes to going on The Bachelor. The rest is history. I always wonder what if I had said no because I was so close to saying no. And I wonder, what would it have looked like if I had stayed in that relationship that wasn't going anywhere in a career that wasn't fulfilling me, living in this box of doing what I was told to do rather than what I really wanted. What would that look like? So the protagonist in this book is confronted with the same situation. Her name is Maya. And instead of saying yes to going on the show, she says no. And her friend says yes. So she sees her friend live the life that she could have had while she lives the life that goes according to her life plan. And it may or may not go the way

that she wants it to. So she comes to this crossroads of love, life, friendship, family, career, and certain events and people come into her life that make her question things that she was always so sure about and watching her friend go on the show. So it just explores the what if. Tastic premise to a book,

and we can't wait for real love to hit shelves. Thanks. Would six feet under like to make, turn it into something? Sure, why not? It's not six feet. under though. That's a show on HBO. It's six feet over. Okay. Because

we're all over six feet and we're black people are alive. I knew that. I'm sorry. You did what you just did. It's fine. I don't feel away about it at all. I'm sorry. I am sorry. Nick. I am sorry Trayvon. I'm sorry,

Van. No, but the party was great. I saw Zuri came there. was there okay yeah joy joy taylor mj acosta all of the ladies black women came out to support black women came out to support and rachel got fucked up why do you keep saying by the end of the party me and can leekly come over to rachel try to say goodbye and rachel was yeah uh-ah-ah-a-ha-ha rachel had completely gone back to

to oak cliff i had a couple of dallas friends in the building they were going nuts My shoes were off. Yeah, they came to party. Yeah. It's okay. It's your party. It's your party. Oh, I was drinking.

I was taking shots. It wasn't even drinking. I was taking shots. It was, you know, I was, I am, and I said this when I talked, I'm not afraid to have an opinion. I'm not afraid of a TV camera of a podcast, Mike. But I get really nervous when I have to celebrate me. And I'm grateful. to the friends that pushed me to have, you know, a party for friends to come out and, you know,

celebrate the book and what was going on. I didn't do that for my book of essays. Just a lot, a lot personally going on. And I didn't feel that it was important to celebrate it. And so I'm glad I did. I was glad to see you and other people there come out. So it was, it was fun. It was fun. Me and Nick Vial had a conversation. I think we might be friends now. I'm going to Vial files. and maybe do some bachelor caps. They will, wait,

you're going to do battery caps? You really have been itching to get back into this bachelor world. I think you'd be a great guest on Vile Files, by the way. Vile Viles. He lives in our neighborhood. Oh, does he? So we'll have to have them.

If he was a villain, just Nick Vile, it's Vial, though, right? What is it? I think people say it both ways. I'm not sure. I say vial, but it's probably by all. I met him and I met his fiance

who is Natalie. Natalie, she's a surgeon technician. She works in surgery and she helps the surgeon. She assists, not help, she assists the surgeon. You were really having a conversation. We've talked for a long

time. I don't see it. When I talk to somebody, I get the details. Nick is from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She's from Alabama, but also Savannah, Georgia. Wow. You know, we talked for a long time. I get the details out of people.

When I talk to someone, I'm like, how many brothers and sisters you got? Just real weird questions to meet somebody at a thing. You said you were making people feel uncomfortable at the party in what way? So Tracy was there from the Stacks podcast. I love Tracy. She's great. And so I introduced Tracy and Joy, and I look at Joy and I said, you guys will get along because you're both aggressive. And they're like, what?

Tracy's like, well, wait a minute. I was like, but in a good way, I like to, what I like to do, by the way, Tracy is just an amazingly articulate, confrontational. I like the conversation. It's like, oh, get it. right but I like when you first meet somebody right or when you're talking to someone you're introducing people there's going to be an awkward point at some point to just get it out of the way you know what I mean just get the awkward point out of the way everybody laughs it off now we're friends and that was what you did by calling them both aggressive I mean you know now they have now they have a common enemy they're like okay they're like Van, why did you say that? Now that gives them two people who don't know each other that well something to talk about, which is the fact that I am inappropriate.

So they both know me. See, it worked. They're not in power. Anybody else you mean? I met MJ Acosta's husband, David, who is the man. That's my first time. I mean, me and David had a conversation, New York sports. And all of the situation, look, I was around.

I don't know. You were at. the party. I was around talking to people is what I was doing. Having fun. I'm glad you did. I talked to Molly from ABC. Who was there? Oh, Molly is so great.

Molly is so, she's friends with I met her through Katie, which you know Katie. Molly's fantastic. Me and Molly talked about riding horses. Molly's from Kentucky. This is the way I... She's about to have a baby. Her first child. She's having a little baby.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know. But it was a fun time. It was a fun time. They had a special appetizer that was like a drumstick of some sort. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like a lollipop.

Like a lollipop. Like a chicken lollipop thing. Mm-hmm. And then there was lemon pepper. Mm-hmm. Yes. They're lucky. I didn't steal a whole plate of them.

I didn't get to try any. Well, you were too busy drinking, man. Shout out. Shout out to Casamigos for providing Casamigos providing all the tequila and Kim Crawford providing the champagne and providing the wine. Both two brands that I love,

and I thank them so much for being at the party. There's only one person I felt sorry for last night. Who, Van? What do you think? Why are you getting so up in arms? I haven't been said it. Because of who I think. you're going to say.

It's not. You think I'm going to bring up your shame is what you think I'm going to bring up. What shame? Do you think I'm going to bring up the shame of the picture that I could talk about? What picture?

Mm-hmm. Uh-oh. The picture that was being shown and that you were throwing shade on are legends like that. I'm not going to bring it up. I wasn't throwing shade. I'm not going to,

you're throwing shade on legends. I don't. I don't want, what I don't want to do is I don't want to change the audience's opinion of you by, I'm not doing it. I'm not going to bring it up. It wasn't shade. I just wasn't as infused as the person with me because I'd already met that person. So I didn't have this whole like shock and awe moment that they did. All right.

That's fine. I'm not going to say the name and I don't think that we should. And if we do, Donnie bleep it out. but it's a person that as soon as the picture was shown to other people in the party, everybody was like, oh, my God. And Rachel's like, I don't care. I didn't say, I don't care.

I didn't say that. Did you think that I was going to say that I felt sorry for Brian? Yeah, I did. No, not at all. Me and me were chilling the whole night. What are you talking about? No. Not at all.

I felt sorry for the lady who was by the cupcake table assisting people with sweets. because this was, these were some fit motherfuckers at this party and nobody was eating the baked goods. Like nobody was eating the baked goods. It was like this was a party full of L.A. fit motherfuckers. And nobody got, nobody grabbed a cupcake.

Nobody had a brownie bite. Nobody had any. I started to go and fucking flip the table over just to get rid of the temptation. That's fine. It was a fun time and we were all very happy to celebrate Rachel. Okay, that's enough. That's enough of the pleasantries.

Uh, I'm going to have Tracy Ellis Ross a fantastic interview. She's going to talk about her podcast, the podcast that she both is featured on and executive producers. She's going to talk about girlfriends. She's going to talk about black. She's going to talk about pattern beauty, the company that she runs. She's going to talk about a little bit about her life. And maybe you'll get some insight into me and Tracy's pal-ship.

She's a pal. She's a part of the crew, Tommy, Core, Tracy. Vang, you know, other people as well. But I may own name. But she was a part of the crew. So we're going to talk to her a little bit late. But first, the big deal of the day. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. All right. This next this is tough for me. It's a tough moment for me, Rach.

Where are we going? It's a tough moment for me. You guys know that on this podcast and I've talked a lot about what I like to do, you know, at night. Talk about this. I like to come home after a long day of doing stuff, working out, stretching my brain out, whatever.

And I like to put on all the hijinks that happen at no jumper. this is no jumper. It's your housewives. It's my housewives. Even though I have housewives now. I like to watch it. You know, No Jumper has, for those who don't know, No Jumper is an L.A. base platform

that does, got it start. Adam Graham-Mason, Adam 22, is the founder of the Jumpper. And they got it to start by interviewing hip-hop stars. I've been on No Jumper. I think two interviews with Adam and I did one interview with Sharp. There might be another one in there somewhere

but I think three times I've been on No Jumping, but they've had all kinds of people on there. Now what they have are various shows, various hosts, AD, suspect, lush, Flacco, Gina views, Sharp, you know, Duno, like a bunch of the trail. Shout out to T. Shout out to T.R.

Shout out to T. Shout out to Back on Fid. child to AD and community, all of these plays. And sometimes they clash, and it's almost more like a reality show than it is actually an interview show. They have several different shows. Is that guy still on it? Then he called out.

What was his name? Who? House phone. The one you got, this is how I even got into it. House phone left no jumper. He has to. Now, he had to. Remember the whole house phone issue?

House phone left no jumper. and now is with biggest bros entertainment. Shout out to House Phone and Blasie and all of those guys. Okay. Now, so I'm on no jumper fame. Yes. And I'll be, I'll be transparent on this.

I talk to Adam sometimes. Talk to AD. I'll pop up on different people's streams and watch content, even if it's not no jumper content, even if it's an ace boy, even if it's back on fake, even if it's community. Like, this is kind of the shit that I watch. some time ago

Adam hit me and he asked me if I would appear on no jumper with Richard Spencer Oh yeah Richard Spencer if you guys don't remember

and we'll give you a lot more a lot more sort of we'll put you up on Richard Spencer in a second Richard Smith, if you don't remember, was the face of the alt-right in the mid to late 2000s,

2010s. He was, he made his reputation as being an unabashed white supremacist and putting forth some of the most vile, backwards, destructive, and really disrespectful and debasing ideas about American society. that one could get. And Richard Spencer was part of the rise in white supremacy and white nationalism

that occurred right around the time of the election of Donald Trump at a time where we all thought that the country was going to get split at the seams by this white nationalist movement that seemed to be growing. Rachel, do you remember this time? Of course I remember this time. I mean, you know, it's interesting because also during this time is at the start of it is when I was starting reality TV world. So, like today Trump got elected,

I was in Finland. So I missed the months leading up to the election. So there were certain things that I missed because I had no communication with the outside world for at least four or five months in 2016 to 2017.

But I remember. Donnie, do you remember this time when this, when, when, this sort of stuff was getting mainstreamed and you had voices that were rising that were

either alt-right or like far-right you know I wouldn't consider Tommy Leran to be alt-right but she was like super far-right Richard Spencer I would Milo Yanopoulos all of these people were gaining traction and becoming stars based upon a growing

movement in America Donnie do you remember I do I feel like This was a couple of years into me living in L.A. And I feel like this was the first time that I felt like I was in something of a bubble. Whereas my day-to-day life wasn't reflective of what was going on in the world. And I was watching a lot more news, a lot more CNN than I was previously. And I feel like that was the case for a lot of people. But just specifically, I remember feeling the new environment that I was in.

And it felt different with the circumstances that were happening elsewhere. Right. And, you know, some of these guys became boogeymen. They became people that the press was really sort of enamored with and fascinated with. And one of the reasons why it was because all the people thought that the election of Donald Trump signaled some sort of identity C change in America. and in a way legitimize a lot of these people. We'll come to that a little bit later.

Richard Spencer was the most notorious out of all of these. You can make an argument for Milo Unopolis too, but there's something cartoonish about Milo that made a lot of people look and say, is this someone to be taken seriously? Or is this performance art?

Kind of what is this? Richard Spencer was different, though. He was different because he came clean-cut. he came he looked he's dressed in the nines it's very articulate right very articulate guy um he wasn't some sort of screaming raving lunatic he was what I call a professional racist a professional white supremacist someone that sort of inspired intrigue in people because he seemed like a normal guy and when those ideas come out of something not wearing a Ku Klutz Klan hat, not with a shaped head wearing Doc Martins, you go,

hmm, this person looks like the picture of American success. And this is something that Richard Spencer did intentionally. This person looks like the picture of American success. Surely there must be some merit to what it is that they're saying. Surely there must be something that they, some sort of perspective that, that, that warrants interrogation. And that's kind of what he did. And for a long time, he was a big, big deal.

So that's the idea of my mind that I had of Richard Spencer. And we'll go into why I had that idea of him a little bit later on. Adam asked me to do this interview or debate or whatever it was with Richard Spencer. And I said, I can't sit down with Richard Spencer. He called him. He said, I can't sit down with Richard Spencer. A little while later, he asked me again. He said, listen, the guy's changed.

he's not who he was. And I say, let me do some research and I'll come back to you, but I said you should probably get your second guy, whoever your second guy is lined up and ready to do this interview. I don't know, he ended up doing an interview with Destiny. I don't know if it was supposed to be me and Destiny

and Richard Spencer, or if it was supposed to be just me and Richard Spencer or whatever it was supposed to be. Okay, cool. So I didn't do it. It's supposed to happen. I knew that it was happening. When it came out,

watched it. I wanted you guys here at How I Learning to watch it too. Rachel, I'm assuming you didn't watch it. I saw parts of it. Donnie, did you look at it? Donnie, did you look at it? Yeah, same. I watched parts of it. I didn't watch the full three hours but I got chunks.

I watched the full three hours twice. Oh my God. Let me tell you why. Don't judge me. Let me tell you why. I am ravenous for understanding. I wanted to look at this differently than what I ended up looking at it as.

I had my initial reaction and then I'm like, okay, let's watch it again, put some time between it. And this is all why I'm doing stuff. This is when I'm on the treadmill. No, no, no, no, no, no. Six hours. Go ahead. Of your life. Shut up, Rachel.

I watch you. I watch it twice. I'm impressed. I just, I couldn't do it. Watch it twice. Okay. This conversation between Spencer and a guy named Destiny, who is a very popular YouTube political commentator and culture critic,

ended up becoming this sort of amorphous back and forth, almost musings on American political realities, and culture. They talked a little bit about everything. We talked a little bit about Nirvana. They talked a little bit about pop culture. We talked a little bit about God, a little bit about identity politics.

It was really two guys going back and forth on the tipping point that America is at right now and like what should happen moving forward or how we get back to some semblance of cultural strength, national identity or whatever. there is a point at the beginning of it where Richard Spencer's past is asked about because Richard Spencer, who's been gone from the spotlight, is now crawling out of his home and rebranding himself as some sort of noteworthy

socio-political, intellectual, some sort of cultural historian. And he is a very educated guy, right? That is to be taken seriously beyond what he's done in the alt-right. So I'm going to play a little bit of what it was

that Richard Smiths said earlier in the interview when Adam was interviewing him. There's a lot of people I had conversations about what are coming towards this interview where I'm like, he's really not, or at least he doesn't claim to be the version of him that a lot of people kind of remember from a while back. Yeah, sometimes you need to shatter yourself and pick up the pieces and see how they fit. A lot of it has been organic and intellectual. A lot of it has been

just facing down a lot of battles that I don't think I could win. There was a lot of it. this alt-right energy in 2016 and 2017 and we're going to take on the world, we're going to go save the monuments, and Trump is going to be amazing, and all of this kind of stuff. And there's certainly, there's a tremendous amount of pushback. There's a tremendous amount of violence that can be created by that. And I don't want to be a part of that. I think it's a game you can't really win, so you shouldn't play. I've also gone through some intellectual development And I think, I mean, some things we can get into, but just to, you know, put little placeholders on them, a critique of populism, I would say, in general. I think populism is going to lead to toxic Q&on cults and J6, almost invariably.

I think that's what populism is. And I've also rethought a lot of things geopolitically, particularly with the Ukraine situation. So there's a little bit more. Donnie, I gave you a second part of it, I think. And there was just this moment with Trump where there was the potential to, in a way, kind of become a meme, I guess, is the best way. I mean, I leaned into it. And a lot of it I look back at and I cringe a bit. A lot of it I look back at, I think there are some good things.

A lot of it I look back at and I think there are some really awful things. You talk about the hate, you know, look, race is a, it's everywhere. It's talked about inlessly by the mainstream media, by the Atlantic monthly, by live streamers. It's obviously extremely important. We do need to have a conversation about it. But that stereotype of it's all about resentment and hatred and that can lead to violence, that stereotype isn't entirely untrue.

I mean, if you look at someone like the Buffalo shooter or something like that, he was radicalized on 4chan during the pandemic. And he cut and pasted a bunch of memes. And it became this, you know, basketball game of, you know, I'm going to kill 10. And so the whites are up. Like, just horrible stuff. Okay. So Richard Spencer goes on to say that there's one part where it. where he says, and the part where he is,

it's a three-hour interview on the part where he's talking about his past is around 20, 20 minutes. And what he's essentially saying is that, you know, he was a little bit younger when he was doing the things that he did. He's 44 now. He was 39 during the time that he was the face of Y'all right. And he talks about the fact that he's had sort of a political change. and an intellectual change.

He's understood. He's like, he understood that the things that he was saying before they just don't work to achieve whatever goal that he's trying to achieve. He says there were some good things about it. When he said that there were some good things about it, he wasn't as what.

He wasn't as what was good about it. He wasn't asked specifically, well, what could have been good about the alt-right movement? What could have been good about any of that stuff? It was just glossed over. So I watched it the first time. And I hit Adam and I tell you why we're doing this. I hit Adam and I said,

so I said to Adam. I said, do you know what being white in America is? What? I said, being white in America is being able to be the face of destructive, deadly, really bargain-based terrorist organization. He was part of the NPI,

which was a white supremacist's think take, a white nationalist think take. Richard Spencer led the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville that ended in the death of a counter-protester named Heather Heyer. I said being white is being able to be all of that and then be re-platformed

and go on a platform and just go, I thought about it, I'm past it now. That's what being white is. being white is just the ability to say hey you know I thought about all of the stuff that I've been saying and it just didn't work and move on

say there were some good things about it but we're moving on now this is my new view of things that that exists here in American worldwide to say that to Adam we talked for a little while he had to go he had a podcast and then i watched the interview again thinking that maybe i was triggered by richard spencer so i watched it again i watched it again it's not good enough just not good enough yeah there's not enough there's no there's no there's no

not good enough i don't want to interrupt you go ahead okay um so uh uh asked adam a little bit bit about it. And I'll tell you a little bit about what he told to me. He said that he did ask Richard Spencer about this stuff, but he didn't want to grill him about it. It's one thing he said. I want to talk about everything that we said because it was a conversation between him and I. But he also said something that I told him that I would help him with. And I'll help anybody. He said that when he did the research on Richard Spencer before he got him on there, he had heard that Richard Spencer had changed his views from somewhere. When he did the research on Richard Spencer and got him on there.

He thought the media's portrayal of Richard Spencer, even from 2016, was exaggerated. Adam thought this. Adam said that Richard Spencer's reputation was exaggerated, which I took to me that he wasn't as bad as people were saying that he was. That's how I'm taking it. Right. And so I said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to help you. I'm going to help anyone else who wants to platform Richard Spencer and talk to him as if his opinion and his notoriety and his relevance has been built on anything other than hate for years. I said, I'm going to help you with that. And so what we're going to do right now is we're going to help Adam. We're going to help. we're going to help No Jumper, and we're going to help anybody else,

anybody else that thinks to platform, Richard Spencer. But let me tell you why this is important specifically to No Jumper. And I want everybody to understand this before we even play some of the stuff that we have. No Jumper is a hip-hop platform run by a white dude. Okay? A lot of people have a problem with that already. It is what it is.

I don't think too much about it. But one thing that cannot be denied is that the platform itself is built on black culture. Adam opened a BMX store back in the 2000s. No Jumper is not about BMX motherfuckers. It's not. It's about rappers. It's about rap and hip hop. Something that black culture built.

That's what it's on. That's fine. all of the people that work in OJeper, the big personalities, all the ones I named, AD, black dude, T-Rill, black dude, Flocko, black dude. Don't get me wrong. They're not all black. Housephone is black, but it's not no jumper anymore. They're not all black. But it's mostly something that's, if not tangential to, directly grounded in black culture. So, in my opinion, no jumper as a platform, any platform that deals in black culture has a responsibility to black people.

A very direct responsibility of black people, because if they don't have that responsibility, then what you're telling me is you can make money off niggas. You can make product and use your platform to sell product to a black audience. But when it comes down to actually caring about black people, you don't have to give a fuck. And anything goes. All right. So that's why this is important to me. And this is important to me because I've been on here telling you that I watch the shit.

Rachel? I think you're doing too much for them. Because I think it's a very, I think it is a very bold statement. I agree with everything that you just said about a platform of no jumper and what they're built on and what their responsibility is. So what's our responsibility? That's why I say it's too much.

Because for him to tell you, and I have a question for you before you play anything, for him to tell you that Richard Spencer was exaggerated in the media, I'm going to need you to know why that was said. Because you're telling me that Adam did research on Richard Spencer. and at the conclusion of his research, his determination was, I think they exaggerated him. Did you ask him why he said that?

Yeah. And what was his response? Actually, actually, no. I didn't ask him why. I was a huge problem with that. I think it takes five minutes of research to not see that he was exaggerated in any way. This was a movement.

This man created organizations, websites. Like he was conducting interviews. This was a key, as you said, he is the face of it. So I would love to know in what ways you think he was exaggerated before you do anything, before it becomes our responsibility to help you see the light. You're missing the point. When I say, when I when I say help him, I don't mean actually help him, Rachel. No, I know. You're going to point out things about Richard, right?

I guess I'm just so highly offended that he said he was exaggerated and you can't tell me why. Yeah, but here's a deal, though. Rather than me be offended in this particular situation, what I'm going to choose to do is talk about who Richard Spencer really is. We know who Richard Spencer is. I watched, I'll say 15 minutes of this, okay? And as I was watching it, I'm sitting there and I'm like, why? For what you said about what being white is in America is, or being white, period, is exactly what I thought when I watched this. I said, why are we even given this man an opportunity to have a platform to talk about how he's changed?

When I look up Richard Spencer, he's still defined as, hold on, despite him changing his views, the man is still defined as a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist and white supremacist. That's still how he's defined. All of a sudden he's changed his political views. And from what I see, the only reason he seems to have changed his views is because he's changed on Trump. He doesn't like Trump. And he even has a quote that says, our day in the sun will come again. You don't like the leadership at the top. You don't like the way things were going.

You listen to three hours, so please tell me if I'm wrong. And maybe this isn't one of the clips that you were going to play. At any point does he explain, go ahead. No, I'm listening. Go ahead. Finish. At any point does he explain or define or talk about the progression from far, the farthest that you could go all right to now saying I'm done with it. Because if you didn't, what are we talking about here? To me, I don't-

We're talking about the fact that he didn't do that. Like that's the whole purpose of the segment. Okay. But I guess, and I understand that. And maybe it's the phrasing that's thrown me off of like, I'm going to help him see. Like we, I wouldn't think that anybody who would listen to this,

to, um, this No Jumper interview would believe Richard Spencer at all. But they did. Who did? You can go read the comments. The, the,

the people that you're talking to on our platform, aren't the people in those comments. Those people, Adam should have never had him on the podcast, which is why thank God you never. you didn't do it. But Adam should have never even had it. The people in those comments,

I just personally feel like those are people who think that he was exaggerated as well. So before Richard Spencer, for me, especially since this is popping up, all kinds of people have interviewed Richard Spencer. But Richard Spencer, before people just get back to talking to him, I think it's important that people know what it is. And there are people who listen to No Jumper that listen to this podcast, too, a lot of people.

And there's a lot of people even in that building over there that didn't appreciate it. So, you know, even in listening to it twice, I still couldn't, I couldn't find myself in a space where I understood what was productive or what was compelling about it. So this is what I'm going to do. And I'll say this with the degree of sarcasm. I'm going to help Adam right now. I'm going to help anyone who doesn't remember who Richard Spencer was. Donnie, we have some clips. Okay.

And we're just going to go through some of them. And I'm going to pepper in some facts not just about Spencer, but about the alt-right movement that he led and was the face of, and about how it affected the fabric of the American community while it was a huge. huge, huge big deal. This is Richard Spencer on Roland Martin show talking about his beliefs about equality. I just said, being a European isn't just a plot of land. Being a European is about blood and spirit. These people form the core of American identity. What it means to be American is ultimately what it means to be a white person here. How so? Because we are essential. Because the realities is here, Dr. King talked about it. I wouldn't maintain that.

Dr. Key talked about it was black people who actually made America live up to the ideals that they wrote on a sheet of paper that there were white Americans who talked about, oh, we want the nation to be this. When the reality is that's what they were living up to. It was black folks who made that a reality when it came to the Constitution. When you say all men are created equal, we had a nation where it wasn't all men are created equal. I myself am critical of the founding fathers. However, clearly they did not believe in multiracial equality. Clearly, if you look at the first... And you agree with that?

Yes, I agree with that. They did not believe that everyone's equal. So you don't believe in multiracial equality? No. I mean, I don't think anyone does, actually. I mean, do you really think that all people are equal? So that's him describing his view of the world. His view of the world is that he doesn't believe all people are equal.

Now, you might be able to look at that and say, hey, he's talking about the fact that people are born with different talents, different skill sets, whatever. And he goes on in that interview to intimate that he didn't mean it on a racial level. But then there's a different interview where he talks about Africans and their contributions to world history. Donnie, do you know the clip I'm talking about? Yeah, this is with Gary Young, the Guardian, I believe.

I'm going to play it. You tell me. Play that for me. Yeah. There was slavery. That was a kind of full of effort. There was apartheid. And that didn't work out so well.

It didn't work out well for us. No. It didn't work out well for anybody. It was a very, very bad idea. Africans have benefited from their experience with white supremacy. And we just have to look at the life. I'm just going to leave that out there. I'm going to leave that.

You know, that is not even worth challenging. You have that. Africans and life. Look at the average life of an African-American in the United States. It's far better than any African-American living in Africa. So slavery was good for them. Look, they benefited from being in a different nation than their own, no doubt. Really?

No doubt. How can you deny that? So we go from there. and we kind of start to see his worldview formulate. What he believes is the world in which white people are the center of the world and that they act as caretakers and stewards of the mongoloid race, black people, and everyone else. Now, if you do not think that that is true, I will give you concrete evidence of that later. All right, but I want to keep going to a speech that he gave shortly after the election of President Trump.

Richard Spencer's fame coincided with the election of Donald Trump. See, he had been doing this for a very long time. He had been an ultra-conservative political writer in the late 2000s. He first coined the term alt-right way before Trump was in office. This is around 2011 or something like that. and it was only after the election of Donald Trump and a rise and an emboldenedment of this sort of thought that he became someone that people listened to.

All right. He gave a speech. And what he did at the end of the speech is the NPI speech. I think Millennial Woes and a couple of other the white grievance people were there as well. Really shocked a lot of people. Donnie played the speech

and how Richard Spencer ended it. To be white is to be a striver, a crusader, an explorer, and a conqueror. We don't exploit other groups. They need us and not the other way around. For us as Europeans, it is only normal again when we are great again. Hail Trump. Hail our people. Hail victory.

Now, you guys can't see it, but in the, in the audience there, obviously you have numerous Nazi salutes because that's what Richard Spencer asked for. Am I stupid for thinking that he asked for a Nazi salute there? He absolutely did. He asked for a Nazi salute there. Hailed Trump. He said that he was being tugging cheek because he knows that people call him a Nazi. Meanwhile, in videos that I watched, the guys that are protecting him, one of them had a gigantic SS tattoo on the top of his head.

this what I'm giving you is evidence of a clear trend in his speech and in his intellectual I'll take that again I'm so off right now this what I'm giving you is a clear trend in what he believes obviously and that throughout this entire time he put on the face and he would say hey I am not a racist I am not a racist I don't mean racist things I I just want white people to have their own stuff. He did an interview with W. Kumar Bell, where they talked about specifically white privilege. Donnie?

So I think white people do need to talk about their whiteness more. And we're here doing it. We're here to talk about white privilege. We want to bring it back. Make white privilege great again. So you're a fan of white privilege. Oh, yeah. And what do you love about white privilege?

Oh, it looks great. Like, you know, I mean, the people are good looking and, you know, nice suits. great literature. Like, yeah, I just want to bathe in white privilege, the greatest most awesome thing. It's working out for you. Well, yeah, I want to expand white privilege. We live in a world where every spring, Google and Facebook and Apple release these diversity numbers, and they'll be like, it's amazing, guys, we hired less white men this year. We think that it's inherently wonderful for white people to have less power.

Oh, that's great. Oh, I'm glad. I hope the new James Bond is going to be a black guy. That would be great for the world. Is that a real big deal, though, with James Bond's a black guy? Is that really like, do you care? For me, yeah, that might be it. That's too much? It's too much. So nobody, nobody, what people want in the world is for there

to be equitable treatment of everyone. The victimhood that is rife in these identity politics, these people claim not to be victims. They rail on other people for being victims, but they are the biggest victims in the world. Okay, so around this time in American history, this is 2016, 2017, 2018. This is not Van Lathen's opinion, you guys, this is fact.

A couple of things happened. Number one, to coincide with Trump's election and the rise of the alt-right in America, there is an incredible, an incredible spike in hate crimes. Hate crimes and anti-Semitic attacks go up by 20,000. 20% in America during the time of President Trump. That is a fact. That is not me making something up is a fact. If you do not think that the alt-right movement and the normalization of certain narratives and certain talking points that infected a lot, large portions of the mainstream Republican Party,

and that dominated in a very specific way, a lot of American political talk wasn't responsible for that. you're sticking your head in the sand. These are things that were not asked about during that interview that don't seem to have been considered when you sit down and you talk to Richard Spencer. Guys, I want you to understand, having an interview with Richard Spencer is not the problem here. I played you W. Kamal Bell talking to him.

I played you Roland Martin talking to him. I could play you vice, the Atlantic, all types of people talking to Richard Spencer. Everybody likes the next clean-cut white races. The problem is, just the same way it is for everyone that worked and served under President Trump that's now trying to resurface and restart their political careers, is that the wash and rinse of someone who is that destructive merits way more criticism and scrutiny than what was given on no jumper, particularly from a platform that deals in black

that culture. There's just no way around you. Now, if you had any doubts about what Richard Spencer was, what Richard Spencer is, and who and what he believed in, he fell out with his buddy Milo Yiannopolis. They in some kind of way got into a tip. I don't know what happened. I don't give a fuck. Milo leaked a tape on Richard Spencer. These are the contents of what he said. by people like me. Little fucking afteroons. I'm fucking

my ancestor fucking enslaved those feces of the fucking shit. We're going to win? I get ruled. Until you face fucking world works. We are going to destroy this fucking

fucking... Okay. So that's after Charlottesville. And that's where Heather Hayer passed away. So I'm just keep it all the way real. No jumper failed.

Big fucking time. In a real way, they failed. it's almost to the point, and this is, I want to be clear, I'm not holier than bowing no jumper at all. I'm not at all, okay? I realize what my background in the media is. I understand it.

I get it. What I'm saying is normalizing Richard Spencer on the show and not, interrogating his past is in many ways, in many ways it's unforgivable, particularly after I asked and it was said that there was an exaggeration around who he was.

Let me tell you what I suspect happened here. What I suspect happened here is that there wasn't as much research done on Richard Spencer's past as what they should have been. that there wasn't a lot of time put into exactly what he, the alt-right movement, in that particular period of American political violence meant to a lot of people,

that there wasn't any of that that was done, you know, that the rush to have something on the show that was salacious and to drive sort of a new a new version, a new area of No Jumper. Adam wants to start doing interviews, different types of interviews or set up these type of political debates and have people on that that people would care about

was more important than actually what was sitting down there in that chair. There are plenty of skinheads, white nationalists, all types of people like that, that after years and years, say, hey, what I was doing was wrong. I'm not anybody's God or their judge, and I can't get into me.

Anybody's here to tell them what they should be doing. But, like, it can't be done that way. It has to be done in a way, especially on a platform like that, that's responsible. That takes into consideration the level of disruption that a person has caused. Richard Spencer has dedicated his entire adult life to being a racist. You don't get to call a time out after one or two years.

You don't. He didn't just start this in 2016. He had been doing this. Years and years and years dedicated to the division of America and the subjugation of black and brown people. And they barely talked about it. If anything, the entire three hours should be devoted to whatever he's been through. There was no talk about atonement.

There was no talk about. reform. There was no talk about what someone would have to actually do to blaze anew, to change the entire thing. And it was incredibly disappointing. And I'll stop talking after this. It calls into question all of the sort of issues

that people have with new media. Now, I don't really have those issues. I think people starting media platforms, everywhere is awesome. But the question always becomes, do people have the fundamentals that they need to get into stuff like this is the core understanding of culture, conversation, and discourse and responsibility there when it's not just about, you know, mining for clicks and views? So to me, it's a massive failure.

I've told him that. Now, this is not me saying, I want to make it clear. Me and Adam been cool for a while now. But I needed to be understood. Me and AD is my brother. I needed to be understood what a massive fuckup this is in my eyes.

To me, this is white boy shit. Good old boy slap on the back. Like, I don't give a fuck what y'all think about it. This is what we're doing today's shit. and I'm incredibly disappointed and a little pissed off if I'm being real. It's not a fuck up. This is who Adam is. We had a whole conversation about no jumper and it was in fun and you were giving me the breakdown

and explaining to me the whole drama with... Housephone. Housephone. With Housephone and Adam. And what you can deduce from that entire situation is that Adam cares about Adam. Adam cares about ratings. Adam cares about views and clicks. You had three white men talking about a subject matter that doesn't impact them.

And as you pointed out, the platform, what it was built on, I don't know the majority of the audience, but I would imagine that a lot of them are black, are directly impacted by it. And what you have shown, the reason that I said it's not a fuck-up is because what you are consistent in is that you don't care. You have the fundamentals to do the research.

You have the fundamentals to do, and all the resources to do everything that was necessary to prepare for that interview. But you don't care. What you care about is how many people this is going to reach to increase the popularity of you and your platform and whatever this new segment is going to be.

You have no desire to even rehabilitate Richard Spencer. You just wanted him on your podcast to platform it so people would start talking about it like we are now. Everything that you said was necessary. Everything that you said was important to point out that this is a man, Richard Spencer is a man that you should not trust. What you should trust are the first 39,

years of his life. It's the man who has dedicated himself to hate and to hate of people that look like the two of us. That is who that man is. And there's a quote that he has where he talks about just wait, our day and the sun will come again. He is displeased with certain things in his party. He is displeased with some of the way that things are going. He will come back to this because this is who he is. I didn't listen to all three hours, but from what I did listen to, and you can, and you did, so you tell me if I'm wrong, you haven't shown any type of progression to how you got from there to here. Right.

Why it was so important for you to change your views. Okay, you voted for you're voting for Biden. How did you come to that conclusion? What made you change? What conversation have you had with black people? How are you using your platform now? Because when I did my research, I couldn't find a whole lot of stuff about how Richard Spencer has changed.

How he is, because what you don't, well, we don't need to do is as black people give him the opportunity to explain himself, which is why I'm so glad that you did not have him on, I mean, why you didn't sit a part of that interview. Because what we don't need to do, I don't need to hear from you. I don't need to rehabilitate you. I don't need to give you a chance. None of that is my responsibility. But if you are serious about the change that you've made, then I want to see how you further your platform to you're never going to correct what you did because you're a part of a movement that still exists

that's not going away. But I want to see what you're doing for the people that you did impact, for the people that you have hurt. And I'm not seeing any of it. I'm not seeing any of it. To be honest with you, if you watch the whole interview,

I think it's still in there. There are. Oh, the 39 years. I don't think Richard Spencer, I don't think Richard Spencer has changed much at all. Not at all. No, he hasn't. I mean, to be, if you, if you watch the back and forth between him and Destiny,

then you see at times him revert. 39 years. Yeah, you know, I'm not in his shit longer than that. It was 39 years. He's 44 now. So it was 39 years up until 2016 or whatever. Like we're talking, that's like five years or five, six years ago. It's longer than that.

There's no way I could not speak. speak about that. There's no way I can not talk about that. You know, I will say that, you know, for what it's worth, I'm not saying that that people can't change. What I'm saying is that all transformations aren't created equal. The more harm you do, the more atonement, soul-searching, and rebuilding that you have to do. You know what I'm saying? Like, you smack my father. I might, I might be able to, I might be able to be cool with you again after I see you and him shake hands. And I don't know, y'all get a fair one or whatever.

But if you kill my father, you got a lifetime of work to do. And I would just, and I asked Adam straight up, did Richard Spencer, when he had this entire thing, did he reach out to Heather Hayer's family? Has there anything that's been done? We'll see what happens. Let me just say this. We've seen what it looks like when Richard Spencer is passionate about. something and when he cares. That's not the energy he had in that interview.

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to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Mississippi Governor Tate Reams. He's a big Republican. I have to put it out there. I have to put it out there.

Has used $10,000 in federal head-staffir-start funds to print 7,500 copies of his wife's Bum-ass book. She wrote a children book. Her name is L. Reeves. Ellie? It's E-E-L-E-E-E. What is that? Ellie? It looks like Ellie. I think it's Ellie. Let me go to check. Yeah. We don't care. We don't care. Yeah, fuck. Last year, she's the first lady in Mississippi. Last year, she announced the launch of a new initiative aimed at improving child development. She wrote a children's activity book about a turtle named Frick. It's called Fred the Turtle. It's a very crazy move. Throughout February into March, about nine months before her husband's re-election bid, she began traveling to state, garnered immediate attention as she passed out copies of the Fred to Turtle book. Children, Fourth graders.

Today, actually Mississippi today, uncovered that a nonprofit, Stay with us, Star Wars, Hope Rising, paid to print thousands of additional copies of Fred Duttle with $10,000 in federal headstart funds appropriated to it by the governor's office. In case you forgot what I was saying, the governor is her husband. The Hope Science Institute, aka Hope Rising, operates mainly on grants from the Casey Family Programs and under private funding. Mississippi today also uncovered that Hope Rising paid to print thousands of additional costs. of Fred Duttle. You already read that one.

With $10,000. Wait. Donnie hasn't here twice. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Okay. All right. So, this is indicative of the kinds of issues that were raised during the Brett Favre situation in Mississippi.

Rachel, do you remember that? Of course I do. So that plus this. when you have a governor whose wife has ambitions, we should say she was doing an initiative, but she also wrote a children's book as part of that initiative. And she's using state funds given to them by the federal government

to print her book. This to me is indicative of the kind of graft and mismanagement that causes states like Mississippi to not be able to get the help to the people that needed. And when I say help to people, I mean money allocated to help those people. Can I ask a question to play a little devil's advocate? Because I do see, I do think this is wrong. However, she was printing the books. The books were a part of this initiative at improving child development. So the books were printed to pass out to children in schools to improve what's been

I guess seen as an issue in the state of Mississippi. So it was for the constituents of Mississippi. Could there be an argument that they used federal funds to impel their citizens? It's not like she was making profit off this book. Here's the thing. Okay. Yes.

Okay. Yes. But let me tell you where it's fucked up. Okay. Two things. Number one, nobody is asking for the First Lady of Mississippi to be the one that when we talk, think about what the Republicans do. The Republicans talk so much about indoctrination. They talk so much about changing messages and about controlling what's going into kids' minds. and they said that that shouldn't come from the government, right? They said that the government shouldn't do that.

But the government shouldn't have the big boogeyman of Republican ideas, CRT, or whatever it is. They shouldn't have that anyway. However, they're comfortable down to Mississippi by taking federal money and letting the wife of the governor write something that then goes into a Head Start program. First of all, doesn't matter it looks bad. Not only does it look bad, but it doesn't look like really to me what the spirit of an initiative like that should be. Okay. And it's too entangled.

It's too entangled and it looks to me, it's like too deliberate. Hey, my wife does this. Let's put some money behind her. Let's see if everybody likes Fred the Turtle. Then what she was able to do is start her children's career or further her children's book writing career, which I'm not sure how many children's books she's written before, using state funds. If it's that big of a deal, you're the governor of the city of the state.

You want to do that. Take 10,000 bucks of your own money, fucking print Fred the Turtle, and then see if Fred Turtle meets the standards to be giving out to kids in the schools. I'm just being for real. No, it's just the Fred the Turtle. You know, it's like, you know, whatever you want to do. But, you know, this in light of what we've seen in Mississippi, sort of this triangle of mismanagement, kickbacks, graphs, all of this stuff. I'm glad that it's coming to light because it's not something that's unique there.

whenever politics, identity, celebrity, and people all get thrown into this sort of putrid gumbo, never get anything that tastes good. And when I saw it, I'm like, it's not a huge sum of money, but it's kind of indicative of how business is conducted in Mississippi. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. There's a theme here.

There's a through line. And what's troubling here is what you started talking about at the beginning of what the previous governor was doing, who we know was entangled with Brett Farr. We know there are two other people who held office who have pled guilty. I don't know what the exact charges are, but for their wrongdoings with all of this mismanaging funds. And we know that there are funds that should be used for the people of this state to benefit from. one of the poorest state in the country. And they're not being used. But when you do decide to use them,

you use them for your wife's book. Totally understand that. And that's the problem. It just shines a spotlight. And Mississippi today is doing fantastic journalism, pointing this out, getting this information out. You know, we had a reporter on,

talk about it. I'm so sorry. Her name is escaping me at the moment. Like, they're doing fantastic work highlighting this. But I think it just shows, like you pointed out, this is, the government is corrupt.

And it's not an even with new leadership in position. Reeves took over in 2020. He's running again for office, by the way. It's not changing. And the people in Mississippi. We should say Anna Wolf. Thank you. And actually, I think she wrote this article as well.

Almost positive Anna Wolf wrote this article. The thing that basically the state's not getting any better. Mississippi has had their issues. We've pointed them out numerous times on this podcast. And it's starting with. the top and the fact that there has been money that has been unspent that has been given back to the federal government when it could be used to bring Mississippi out of its current state and they're not using it, but then they'll use it when it benefits them and makes them look good

like they're actually helping out people in the state of Mississippi when they're really not. Because I don't know her heart and God forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems more that she is doing this for the optics of creating this children's book as a part of an initiative to improve child development rather than actually helping out constituents who need her help in the state of Mississippi. This seems to be furthering her more than it does the people of Mississippi. Yeah, it's all about rhetoric, right? It's about convincing one group of people in America that there isn't enough to go around. So everything that somebody gets is something that you don't get.

Right? So, hey, there's all these welfare, but there's not enough to go around. There's not enough to go around. So either we make a choice here. Either we give money to black welfare mothers, Hispanic welfare mothers, or we invested into America and to industry and all of that stuff.

But I'm telling you, if we give it to them, you people don't get anything. When the real reality of this is that not only is there enough to go around, there's abundance in record, historic, unimaginable numbers, right? Even in a down economy, America is the richest nation in the history of the world. So there's two things happening at once. One is the priority is not people. number two is what is there for people

is actively getting robbed and actively getting mismanaged by the halves and by the way, now the political party has like a a monopoly on that now the political party

is the party of the corrupt politician. It happens everywhere. But I hope that Mississippi today and other outlets like it continue to do this type of work to show that just with management, not with an influx of cash, not with raising a bunch of people's taxes, just with sound and competent management, we could get people so much more help and give them so many more resources than what they have right now. just by not stealing. Mm-hmm. Just by not doing shit for your boy. Yeah. The Brett Farb situation.

People could get what they need. And it has a real human cost. Let me ask you this. Do you think that the NBA is racist? No. Do you agree with Perk? No. You don't agree with Perk.

Perk, like, we need to clean up with some bullshit. Perk. gotten to it with JJ Reddick and it was the funniest thing that ever happened in the history of sports talk. Perch says that Yokic, do you have a Yokic

take? Everyone is dreading Yokch when he has third straight MVP. He's definitely white and people are saying that he gets treated differently and gets extra. And Perk says, Perk been saying all kinds of stuff. And J.J. Reddick called him out over it.

We're going to get to Tracy after this, but what's your thoughts? Do you think that Kendrick Perkins is making a real point about bias in NBA awards, circles, and stuff like that. Do you think it's a big deal? I mean, if you're talking about it statistically, he's wrong. And, I mean, coming off a conversation where we're talking about somebody who wasn't well researched and coming off of a podcast where we talked about the responsibility that we have as journalists, this is just, I get the pressure to make an outrageous statement and to be spontaneous and to have.

and to have a hot take and to do something that goes viral. But you just can't be flat out that wrong when the numbers and the statistics don't show aren't even close to showing that, right? And maybe we should get into what it is that he said so people understand what we're talking about. Perk said that over 80% of the voters that vote for the MVP or Y.

Donnie, just play the audio between JJ Redding and Kendrick Perkins. I want to say, I want to just say something. Stephen, I mean, I mean, I mean, Stephen, I mean no offense to you, and I mean no offense to first take, because I think this show is extremely valuable. It is an honor to be on this desk every day. It really is. But what we've just witnessed is the problem with this show, where we create narratives that do not exist in reality. The implication, what you are implying, that the white voters that vote on NBA are racist, that they favor white people.

You just said that. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. That is exactly what you implied. That is exactly what you implied. Secondly, hold on, hold on. I did not call.

I stated the facts. I stated the facts. And you're not about to sit up. We all know what you implied the other day. We all know what you implied this now. I said it's the fact. It's the fact. It's the facts.

It's the facts. But it's the facts. You said that's 80% of the NBA MVP voters are white. And this is what ESPN had to come out and say. A day later. Donnie? I want to correct something here from yesterday's show. When Kendrick Perkins said 80% of NBA voters for the MVP award are white,

the NBA publicly announces the voters each year. And after review, it is clear the panel is much more diverse than what was portrayed by Kendrick Perkins and we wanted to make sure that we corrected that today. How embarrassing. So here's the thing. I just want to say this to Perk, man. Perk, we get it. We're trying to say it's a lot of people out there.

It's a whole conversation around Yolkich. I don't want to get into it. Yokic is a bad motherfucker. He is. Yokic is a bad motherfucker. Do you like Yokish, Rachel? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's not my team, but you can't deny his talent and the skill

and what's the Joker brings, you know what I mean, to the game? Like, I'm not gonna, but I'm not super fan. Donnie, you fuck with Yokic? I'm not gonna lie, I don't. But I respect his game. Donnie, why you don't fuck with Yokish? I'm just not a fan. I'm not a fan of his style of play.

It's kind of, I don't know. Yeah. Do you think that Yokish deserves if he wins it this year? Do you think that his game and his dominance over the league is deserving of three straight NBA MVP's? I don't like the idea of three straight. even if he kind of deserves it. I think at this point, he's got to like,

it's got to be like crazy blowing my mind for him to get it three straight years. And to be honest, I haven't watched enough to give like a real, real, real answer of him. But I think for it to be three straight years, I would like, as a casual viewer, I would be like, oh, yeah, he deserves it. And as a casual viewer, I can't say he does.

Give it to somebody else. So this is the thing. If Yokish wins three straight, that's something Michael Jordan never did. That's something Shaq never did. There's been four guys that have won three straight MVPs if Yokish doesn't. It would be Yokic. It would be Larry Bird. It would be Bill Russell.

It would be Will Chamberl. Okay. Those are the four guys. Nobody would have done this since Byrd. And there have been some bad motherfuckers in between them. So a lot of people are wondering if Yokish's dominance over the league, warrants him warrants him being

a three-time MVP. And Perk is saying that there's some racism into it. But my thing about this is this with Perk. If you're going to make those type of allegations, dog,

you got to have your numbers right, bro. You got to be ratcheted up on your shit, man. Because the retraction, that's fucking hysterical, bro. It's embarrassing. But can I just say,

aren't there other factors to consider? Who would you say? Would you say that he doesn't, deserves to get the MVP? Who would have deserved the other two years? Because I would think the injuries take place, sitting out.

There's things that might not have been the case when you name the other three people who have done this might have been the case in these last three years with Yokin. So there are two things that kind of come to play when you're talking about. One thing is that, well, in other times, the voters would just get. what's called like voter fatigue. They would just get sick of giving the MVP to the same person. Like Michael Jordan won two straight MVP's and then they gave it to Carl Malone when it was clear that the most valuable

player in the league was Michael Jordan. LeBron James missed out on it one year. They gave it to Derek Rose. It's like voter fatigue. We know LeBron's the best. It's given to somebody else. They don't seem to have that same voter fatigue with Nicola Yokicich.

We don't know if Nicole Yolkich will win the MVP this year, but it seems like he will. So a lot of people go, well, why don't they have the same type of shit that they have with somebody else?

And this year is not that controversial, if you ask me. You could make an incredible argument that Yokic is the MVP this year. The thing is last year. Last year, the Nugs were maybe like a six seed,

seven seed, maybe a fifth seed. And he ended up winning it when most people thought that it was going to be Joel and B. So at this point it's almost like It's hard to argue against him being the MVP

Look I can make an argument for any of these guys For Yonis or anyone but like It seems to some people that White Ice is colder that when Yokic does a bunch of shit That it's that it just seems doper And a lot of other people think that he doesn't get criticized For stuff that other players get criticized for He's never been to the finals

He has not come out the West yet maybe they'll come out the West this year. I'm being full disclosure. Denver's had some injuries. He hasn't always had his full team, but he hasn't come out of the finals, out of the West yet. He hasn't won a championship.

So for him to be the league MVP three straight years without one finals appearance, it's just a lot of people look at that like kind of whatever. And Perk is making, Perk is dug in now. It's not changing.

It's not changing for perk. Perk is duggies. So it is what it is. But like, do you like white people? You like to watch them dunk on niggas? I know you do. I know you do. You love it when white,

white ball. You like Mac McLone. I could tell. I can tell you a MacKlellan fan. I did enjoy him at the All-Star game. You like that. I know. The All-Star weekend.

I know. You like that. A lot of people did. See, I thought it was cool, too. See? I tell you one thing. if that nigger's name was

fucking Jalen McClunk and he hit the same dunks people would not have been as wild I think Matt McClunk is amazing and he is a fantastic dunker but let's be honest we have biases too and some of our biases are

we don't expect a white boy to show that type of athleticism so sometimes when he does white shorter and like most people had not heard of him. So I think if you had had like a black guy who was smaller like that, who was the

rookie of the G-League, I think that you would have had a big reaction as well. People were like, who is this person? I really do. I really do. I don't think it was just yes, him white adds to it, but I think if a smaller black guy that nobody had ever heard of did the same

thing, they would have been impressed. Spot web. If a Spadweb web kind of had that situation. Yeah. But Mac is a fucking crazy. And those are great dunks. But there is a component of, oh, shit. And we have, like when a white boys get to dancing,

oh, look at them. Fucking it up. Yes. Yes. There is a glorification of that. All right. Tucker Carlson real quick. Real quick.

Actually, let's save this because we got to get out of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So now we have, it's time to have fun. Trace Taylor's Ross is coming on the podcast. She's a lot of fun.

You like her, Rachel? Love her. Really? You do? For real? There's no tension. There's no tension. I'm a big fan of her.

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or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. Okay, you guys, next up we have a cultural deity. Oh, Van.

Hi, Rachel. We have, see, see, see, isn't that true? as a cultural deity. We have two iconic roles in the culture, in pop culture, iconic lineage, and a mogul. Tracy Ellis Ross.

Wow. Hi. Hi. Joins us today on Higher Learning. She made time. She's got so much going on, but she's sitting down with us. How are you doing, Trace?

She's a busy lady, but she's very happy to sit down with you. Rachel, have we met before? we've never met. I think I've just seen you from a distance. I've never had the pleasure. From a distance. Is it Bet Midler?

Who sings that song? I think it is Bet Midler. Yeah. From our distance. Van, have we ever met before? Many times. This is the cruise. Ben and I are actual friends, Rachel.

I know everyone's friends with Van. But Van and I are actually friends. This is my real homegirl. But what's great, Tracy, is you said it first. Okay. Normally we tease Van on this podcast because he's always name dropping, but you said it first. So you are. I wouldn't say that it's a thing of name dropping.

I would say that we interview people that sometimes I know. And it's, you know most of them. He does, but here's the thing. When we're hanging out and talking on the phone, he does not name drop with me. But if I ask anything, he's like, yeah, he's my boy. And I'm like, I know they're all, like, I don't, like, yes, that's the given, Van, got that part. Look, Tracy, we couldn't even make it to our seats. We tell everybody we didn't go to our seats at NAACP because we were having a good time and we were.

But it was also because Van couldn't walk two steps without somebody trying to say hello to him. So I saw it in real life. I saw, yeah. I'd be honest with you, you know, this is a little bit of projection and let me tell you why. First of all, nobody on this call is nearly as famous as Tracy is. We're not talking about, no one's talking about fame. So I know what I'm saying is everybody knows both you and Rachel. It's the same thing.

What happened to me that night is it's even, it's even worse with you. You have a unique inship with folk. How about that? Yes. Did that sound like to put it? Wait, Van, I've never, what is this stack of basketballs? Are there basketballs for different occasions? Yeah, you want to know?

So look, yes, please. So here, we've talked about this. So these basketballs right here, the black ones, they are for training. Okay. So they're weighted basketballs, right? Oh. To make your handles better. This basketball right there on top.

Is that like when you swing with two bats? Yeah. That's very good. Go sports. The basketball. on top right there is an official NBA basketball. So if you want to play with guys who are pros, they're probably going to play with that ball so you need to have one.

And then the basketball down here, that's the Wilson Evolution. That's what most guys play with in the gym. So I have a basketball for every occasion. And then I have an outside ball around here somewhere, but Bozeman tore it apart. Okay. Would you like to let Tracy know what you're training for? See, it's about shame with you.

Yes. On July 4th, I'm going to dunk the basketball. How did you not tell me that? Because it's a thing. I used to be a dunker and then I gained weight, but so I'm losing weight now. And on July 4th, I'm going to get up and dunk again. Rachel doesn't think I can do it.

She's a skeptic. I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all. I'm rooting for you. I'll be there. July 4th to witness it. Wait, is this like, is there a thing that happens on July 4th that I'm unaware of?

There'll be some sort of event. We're not sure yet. Okay, okay. The event is going to be centered around your dunking. It might have to not be on July 4th now because the company wants to sponsor it and do a whole thing. This is getting very serious. Really? That's a little too stupid.

Yeah, I get it. I get it. It's crazy. So we haven't asked a question yet and that's important during an interview. Yes. So you host a podcast, your executive producing the podcast. It's called I'm America. It's a collection of audio portraits.

Wow. that expand our understanding of identity, the idea of community, and the possibility of our country. I listened to one in preparation about a young man. And it had so many twists and turns. His name was Kieran.

Pierre Gaines. Kier Gaines, who he's now a therapist. He's a therapist. And his journey from Washington, D.C., to meeting the father he never knew, to being a father himself, to, you know, getting into therapy himself was really incredible.

What made you want to be involved in a podcast like this? Everybody else's podcasts is them sitting around talking about data. What made you want to do a podcast like this? I thought that's why I was coming on here. No. There's a version of this country that I just don't hear enough of.

And there's so many hidden angels and I believe that there's stories that never get told that are really the example of what success looks like to me in this country, people that are changing how they are seen by the world and living expansive lives and looking for belonging and in turn creating belonging for others. And I wanted to tell those stories. And the name of the podcast came through the Langston Hughes poem,

I too Sing America. And this idea that we, I don't know, especially right now, there's such a divide, and we don't often tell the stories, let people tell their own stories. Like, it's not me interpreting their stories. It's through their own voice. And I do an intro and an outro to give context. And I often find that black people in this country, our lives and our stories and our history and our context is decontextualized.

Like, we don't have context for where we come from and how to put things in place. And so I wanted to give. do that through a podcast. And there's something really special about podcasts. You know, it's, it's almost like listening to a book, but it's like having a really great dinner conversation with somebody. It's very intimate. And the, uh, the physical appearance of somebody sort of removes itself from the storytelling and you get to literally listen and identify and, and see the places where you are the same and, um, create a sense of connection. I am glad you touched on the title and why you named it that, because I found that interesting.

Yeah. because of where we are in our country and so many people want to say what their America. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, that's an interesting title, especially for what, you know, the content is of this, of the podcast. I would, it's 10 episodes, right? Yeah. So, and there's such rich stories. How did you narrow it down?

How did you decide these are the stories that I want to tell and what was important? Because I would imagine that we would keep this going because there's just so many stories. So many stories. You know, it was a really great group. my team and the Nicole Hill, the executive producer, partner, showrunner that we brought in. And we all kind of sat around a virtual table and really started talking about the people we were interested in.

Stories we wanted to hear, you know, for example, Deanna Van Buren is an architect for social justice. And I was like, what does that mean? And you just sort of start leaning in and you realize there's so few black female architects. And I don't know that I realized how much the walls that are around us inform how we see ourselves and feel about ourselves and what we are allowed to do. And that majority of the buildings in our world are built by white men.

Yeah. It's like a fascinating thought. Or Dr. Hardiman, who's coming up, who's a doctor for social justice and you're for the equity of health and you're just like, oh, is there inequity in health? Of course there is. Who's looking at that? things of that nature. Tony Hillary, who started out just wanting to help kids in public schools and ended up creating Harlem Grown.

And all of these kids, you know, that are in a food desert in Harlem, many of them living in homeless shelters and are unhoused and have this access to grow something and have a connection to the earth and create the food that they eat and a sense of connection and sharing with other people. And these people, to me, change. communities and society, and we never talk about them. You know, we talk about famous people who are successful, but there's such a different version and understanding of what success really is to me. And I love hearing about those stories. When did you realize that you cared? And let me tell you why I'm serious.

Let me tell you why I asked you that. Okay. Obviously, people know that we talked about it before. You didn't have to. You know, your, your, your mama walks and sparkles come from her heels. Like she, she's like, she is black culture and not just black culture. She is American culture with everything that the world had to offer, Tracy Ellis Ross, with all of the sort of perspectives that you have for getting to live such an amazing,

fabulous life. When did you realize that you cared about improving the quality of life of other people around you? And why? Well, I want to go back to you said you didn't need to care. Like, why? Why? Because my mom was famous. I didn't need to care. Tracy, plenty of people that come from that choose not to care and choose to live in their ivory towers and not get involved. Or pretend to care. Or pretend to care. But you really do. Like almost everything that you do, be it pattern, be it this, has some deeper meaning into wanting to impact people and wanting to change perspectives. Like, that seems very important to you. And it is.

It's very important to me. Yeah. Yeah. How did that happen for you? I have no idea. I mean, I feel like I was raised that way. You know, I was raised to believe that, I don't know, what, what? I am lost for that wonderful quote.

Like, we're only as free as each other are free. Like, you're only as as strong as the most vulnerable. I don't know the quote right now, but my freedom is inextricably tied to yours. And so I have always felt one of and a part of community and the same way I felt a part of my family, like caring about my siblings. And I'm not sure.

That's a really interesting question. I don't know. I feel like I'm drawn to other people that care. So I feel like I'm connected to a world of caring people. But I guess you're right. I mean, some people just care about things I don't care about. I can tell you that. Yeah, I mean, sometimes I'm like, well, that person really cares about that thing.

And that does not seem worthy of my care. Well, no, that's an important question because my next book is about this. How do you manage your care? Oh, yeah, that's a big thing. Because over the last couple of years, I've had to realize, I just don't have the bandwidth to be down with it all. I have to choose four or five things

and really go hard and hope that the freedom spills over. Because other than that, like how do you manage your care? Well, I think it's like how do I manage my time and where do I put priority? I think my well-being and my wholeness and sort of really working from a,

like giving from the overflow is a really important thing. also in the world that we've been living in now and the times that we've been in and how high stakes everything seems. I mean, from that last president being in office through COVID, like just it's been back to back to back to back and the stakes have been high. It's not always from the overflow. I feel like this is a time to show up outside of your comfort zone and really just use what you have to support our world being. a better place for justice and freedom.

And I feel like so much of my mission in life is really about joining the chorus of others that are working towards making a safer world for everyone to be themselves. You know, and I have a particular eye towards black women and girls. But it really is about all of us, you know? And it's such an interesting question, though, man.

I don't know. I'm like, where did that start? And is it just my nature? Or is it the way I was raised? You think it's a nature? Nature versus nurture? I don't know. I mean, I definitely was raised that way.

Yeah. You know, to care about people. Kindness was a very big thing in my household. You know, we, my mom, like, did not allow teasing. Like, teasing and that sarcasm thing was, like, not a part of my childhood. And, you know, growing up in the more you're around people, especially in the comedy world, you know, there's a real sense of, I mean, sarcasm is the tearing of flesh. That's where that word comes from. It is, there's, it's a, it's a, it's a microviolence. You know, it's people talking

out the side of the neck, you know, so I don't know. But I like that I am known that way. And I, and it definitely makes me feel like a good person when I, my head hits the pillow at night and the privacy of my own home. I don't have the shame of, gosh, I use somebody's head to step up to where I needed to go. You know, I feel like I've locked arms with a lot of people and we're all going there together. Yeah. And that's what makes us excited for whatever it is that you do next because it's going to be rooted in that. And it's going to be rooted in truth. I want to go back to something that you said about the podcast. I know that we get podcasting and the intimacy of it. And like you said, it takes away, you know, seeing that person and maybe even putting your own judgment on it.

But as I was listening to the episode, I wanted to see it. I wanted to see his father. I wanted to see his siblings that he met that he didn't know that he had. I wanted to see his mom and see that relationship picture. So my question is, is there a chance that maybe you would put this to the screen? Because it easily could have been that. I do think all of them easily lend themselves to that. I think that's the kind of storytelling I'm interested in.

But sure, that's always a possibility. I think there's a lot of, there's so much to mind from these beautiful stories of these human beings. And so, yeah, I think that that's probably a great place to find story. But it was funny when I was asking Van, if he listened, I kept saying, did you watch it? Yeah. Did you watch it? I said it like three times. Did you watch it?

I'm like, to listen. Did you watch? I meant listen. It's funny because I appreciate the simplicity of it. Let me tell you why. There's so many podcasts where you go, yeah, I landed in Nigeria. And all of a sudden you hear fucking drums in the background. And I'm like, you know what I'm saying?

It's like, we know. A bit on the nose, no? Yeah, yeah. But no, it was great. And I think that sometimes the method of the storytelling, someone telling their story in their own words, looking back on the things. things that made them. It's just very powerful.

Also, here, for example, was an incredibly, there's a way that he looks back that I think is quite special. He looks back with an open heart and an open hand and there's not a lot of shame or judgment. It's just sort of a telling of that I think really allows the listener to find their own identification and what that conjures for them in their own relationships. And I thought it was really incredibly special in terms of his own ability to tell his story. TV question time. Yeah. Let's say you were going on vacation.

You're going to Paris. You're going to stay for a week. What a jump? What is this jump, man? What's happening right now? It's a TV question. Okay. You're going to Paris.

You're going to stay in Paris for a week. Uh-huh. You can bring one friend with you. Uh-huh. Would you rather spend a week in Paris with jump? or with Bo? Oh, this is a... That's a great question, Van.

So Joan is, of course, the lead character. Joan then or Joan who she would be now? Joan from when we knew her, a girlfriends, the time that she was on there, and Bo from Blackish, who would you rather do a girl trip with? Bo. Why?

Rainbow Johnson. Why? Poor Joan Carroll County. She is a stress case. Joan was stressed. She had a lot of anxiety. She didn't have a lot of faith. She was just looking to get chosen.

I think her clothing was a little more exciting. Okay. Than Bo Johnson. But no, definitely Bo Johnson. Rainbow Johnson all the way. Are you more Joan or Bo? I'm very much both of them. I think I have a lot more faith

than Joan Carol Clayton. Something you said, you said, Joan, now. Who would Joan be now? Who would Joan be now? I think Joan gave up all the trappings and she is single. Joan's me. I think she's, she, I, Joan grew up.

Joan grew up. Joan grew up. She's 50. She's doing great. Right. She's killing it. She's got a wheel of lovers. Yes, Joan.

She's got a lot of clothes. And I actually think Joan lives by the beach. I don't live by the beach. I think Joan lives by the beach. I think Joan's still in L.A. She's not a lawyer. People still call her for lawyer questions. And I think William hovers around.

like William might live up the street you know what I mean? Yeah Yeah It's probably Like right up the hill There's William Yeah like she's in a house

And William's in an apartment But he spends most of his time Do any of the do any of the Do any of the ladies from girlfriends Have an only fans? I don't know I don't even know how is How do you get

How do you get on only fans? No I'm saying Do any of the characters Not the actual actresses I didn't know what you were asking me Van no Do any of any of the characters, any of them

go like... Oh, absolutely. Lynn Searcy has an only thing. For sure. She was probably the first. She's probably a founding member. Absolutely. She probably had stock in only fans. She's also in Bitcoin, by the

way. She's definitely into crypto. But she was in early, though. She was in crypto like 2013, 2012. Sure. For sure. She has like the little crypto in her bio on Instagram. You know what I mean? She's definitely in on crypto.

Candy Cain Lane. Yes. Movie you're in, you're shooting right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Opposite Eddie Murphy. Eddie Murphy. What the fuck? I mean, come on. And we're having a

ball. Like, let me tell you something. To play an improv with Eddie Murphy is just like, that's a treat, okay? that's like a treat on a treat on a treat that's like a Sunday with like extra caramel and like they even put popcorn on it you know what I mean

it's like it's full on it's a full Sunday it's great he is such a treat and he's such a there is a reason first of all I don't think he liked

that I said this but I'm like you're so gentle he's like I'm tough and I was like you are not you're so gentle give me your Annie Murphy again how does he say it how does he say it

well he kept going I'm tough I'm tough. And I was like, I don't know. He's very gentle. He's very quiet. Eddie is very quiet. He's an incredibly generous actor.

A lot of stand-up comedians, I don't even know if you can call him a stand-up comedian. He's just a great, right? But they take up all the air in the room. You know, it's like they're, but he's like a yes-and. You know, one of the improv, like, rules is yes-and, no matter what somebody says.

So you're always sort of giving too. He's just a really generous actor. very supportive like honestly quite like seems to really like setting you up for the funny like it doesn't have to be his funny but like on whatever day that was Tuesday I guess it was

or Wednesday that I don't know what day it is now what day is it? Thursday. So on Tuesday we were doing a seat at a car and he was like I think they cut I was like yeah they cut like three minutes ago but he and I were still just like we were still going

just going just going. I don't even know what we were talking about. We were just improvving back and forth. But he's just wonderful, quiet. Kind of like a cat. Like you don't know he's approaching. And then he's just there. Right. Like you can't hear his steps. Nope. He just appears like Eddie Murphy.

He's gentle. He's quiet. Like with the first day, I met him the first day of shooting. I'd never met Eddie before. And he like slowly, slowly walked up. And he said, hello, Tracy L. Ross. I kind of courtseyed. I think, I curtsied. I said, hello, Eddie Murphy. I like bowed my head like it was the queen, you know.

And he's just just a treat, truly, truly a treat. We have been just sitting, you know, right there on the other side of the camera doing my coverage with me and giving me stuff to make sure my side of the shot is great. And even we were doing one scene and he stopped in the middle. I was like, what are you doing? And he was like, I'm covering the light. There's like a shadow on your face. I was like, ain't nobody looking at me in the scene. Don't you worry, Eddie Murphy? You, this shot is going to be on you, my friend. He's just generous and lovely and I really have enjoyed myself.

Like, really. Give us a little tease about the movie. It's a holiday movie, right? It is a Christmas movie, holiday movie, like, chock-a-block full of funny people. David Allen Greer, Chris Red, Robin Thidi, DC Youngs lie. It's a really sort of magical fun

family Christmas movie. I mean, with Eddie Murphy. What? Yeah. So great. Eddie Murphy and Trace Giles Ross, the new comedy duo. Like how many? I like it. I like it too. I think you got to do a whole series of films together.

It's amazing that you had never met him, though. No, I don't think I had ever met him. I have no memory of meeting him, and I do believe if he's the kind of person you would remember meeting. Yeah. It's like sometimes you'll be in a conversation with Tracy and you'll forget.

And then it would be like, yeah, you know, it's just kid because this guy used to paint or whatever, whatever, not I knew him from back in the day. And here's me and him or he's in a picture.

I'd be like, oh, Basquiat or something like that. It's not true. First of all, Rachel, just you know, I've never met Bosciat. I don't have a Boschiat.

I've never met Boschiat. He's making stuff up. He's just pulling things out. Have you ever? Have you know. Question your question? Have you ever met Andy Warhol? Have you ever...

Wait, wait, wait, stop. Wait, Rachel, have you ever dug in your pocket and pulled lint out? That's what he's doing. He's pulling a winted out of his pocket. Wait, so you never met Boscah. Have you ever met Andy Warhol? Yes, Andy Warhol painted me and my sisters. See what I'm saying?

So it's the exact same thing. Yeah, the other day it came up because you said something about Michael Jackson and yes. Yeah, and it's like, so I would have thought that you had met Eddie Murphy before. Let me ask you about pattern. Pattern Beauty is the, Rachel, Tracy is a mogul. Pattern beauty is the line of beauty products that you brought. It is a hair care line for the curly, coily, and tight textured masses. We exceed the needs of the curly coiling tight textured community.

And we are centered around the celebration of black beauty. And we are in many retail stores. We are also online at pattern beauty.com. I am the majority owner of the company. I have Full Creative Patrol and I am the founder. So I am the CEO and founder of Pattern Beauty. It is a full-time job. I have many full-time jobs.

I love it so much. It came out of my own personal journey with my hair and the realization that I was not alone in that we were not being serviced as a community and that products were not being made really for us and that there were a lot of people slapping stickers on formulas, but I really spent the time creating formulas that were designed for our hair,

our hair that would penetrate the texture and the cuticle of our hair in a way that would give us hydration and do all the things. And we just launched a blow dryer, which is very exciting, the pattern blow dryer. Yeah, I think I might be, someone said to me,

I don't know if this is true, that I might be the first black woman to create a blow dryer. I am not aware. Does it have a comb on the end? We have four attachments, a wide tooth comb and a rubber brush, Rachel. It will change your life.

And it's so pretty, it's ridiculous. Van, ask me for a blow dryer. I did. Why not? I'm going to get the blow dryer. I love it. I use the products. When I'm not wearing a wig,

I use the products for sure. They're amazing. I can tell you all that. This is not an endorsement. I'm just telling you. I mean, I use them. I'm going to ask you, Mitch and Michael Jackson, it just made me think of this.

Yep. His nephew, I believe, is about to play him. Is that true? Is it, is it a movie? I don't know. It's something his nephew's about to do, to play. Okay. Maybe it's on Broadway.

I'm not sure. His nephew's best play him. Okay. It made me think, in the, we're doing biopics now. We're doing all these things. Would you play your mom in a biopic? And if not, if not, who would you want to play her? and who would play you?

Ooh. I'm more interested in who would play me. That's a good question. Wait, wait, let's pose that to the group. Van, who would play me? Kristen Wick? What, man?

I'm so confused. I'm just fucking. I mean, comedically, okay, I'll take it. But wait, who would play me? That is so interesting. Tessa? Well, you know, I love me some Tessa. Or your test is great.

I don't say Tesla. Who would play Tracy in a bio? Like who would play a younger Tracy? Who would play younger me? Tracy at Tracy at... Like Tracy at 12. Yara works, right? Yara works.

At 12. At 12. Tracy at Brown. Tracy at Brown. Yara. Oh, Yara. Yara does work. That's what you said.

Yara. I missed you. I couldn't. Yes. Yara does work. Yara works. Who else, though? Come on.

That's really interesting. So you know what? Why are you asking us? You're the one with the TV shows. Well, I have a photo of this. I'm not good at casting. I'm good at acting, Van. Would you, that would be so crazy

if you watch somebody act as you. Like, if you had to cast someone trying to be you. Do you know what I remember? It was so funny when you said this. Oh my God, look at that. Relax.

Stop. I am not sure. Do you remember that? Yes. Sure. I'm sure. Sure. Sure. Okay. Listen, this is what I thought of when you did when you were talking about this. I remember back in the day before, I want to say it was before girlfriends. You know, you get the breakdowns as actors. I used to get the breakdowns. And it was a breakdowns. It was a breakdown for a Tracy Ellis Ross type and they wouldn't see me. What? What? They did.

I was like, but, but I'm like, I'm definitely the Tracy Alice Ross type. Like I'm, like for sure. I could, I can play Tracy Ellis Ross like, nobody's business.

And they were like, no, we're not looking for Tracy Els Ross. We want a Tracy Els Ross type. That makes no fucking sense. That is this business man. What's the explanation? I just held the microphone and I have one here.

You have a mic. What's the explanation? Like what is the explanation there? I don't know. It was a long time ago. It just made me think of it. We don't need to get deeply into that. I don't know.

It just made me think of it. But, and I don't know who would play my mom. I did like that question. I really liked the Joan and Bo question, too. How crazy is it that 16 years of my life, eight years on girlfriends and eight years on blackish? That is a crazy. It's an accomplishment. That is some crazy banana stuff.

You're in the pantheon of people that have led to some. successful shows. That's very rare. That's a lot rare. I remember. I remember saying I wanted to be in that pantheon. That's what's interesting because there was Julie Louis Dreyfus and, oh, why can't I think of Christina Applegate? What was Christina Applegate show? Oh, yeah. She's married with children.

And then she said she has three now. So it's married with children. Oh my God. I can't think of the other one and now dead to me. Dead to me. Yeah. That to me. So it's, it's, because people have the show and they're like, hey, you're this guy. But do you consider Andy Griffith in that? Because he had to Andy Griffith show, but then he came back home with Matt Locke. Just thinking about women. Oh.

I messed up, girl, and this one. So no. Yeah. So what, you got so much going on. This is my last question for you. And this is something that we sometimes talk about. how does Tracy take time for Tracy? Like everything that you're doing, you're so busy.

You have this like uncommon work ethic. It's like really insane work ethic. When do you ever feel like you get overwhelmed with all of the different? All the time. I get overwhelmed all the time. But I take really good care of myself. I think sometimes, and I'm really learning how to balance the pace, and it's not easy. You know, I still am of the actor mindset of like, you know, you go where you're being taken,

as opposed to deciding where you want to go and trusting that you can say no to things and saying no to things now that four years ago felt like the golden ticket and allowing the evolution of my career and my journey and what I want and trusting that. It's all a process, you know. I do love what I do. I do have a really strong work ethic. I think I could work a little less. I think I could have a little bit of a better balance or some sort of harmony. I think the biggest thing for me right now is learning how to make space for when you have a high-stakes life and you do big things, it's not always going to be perfect. Like, I don't do all this work on myself to become a floating Buddha.

Like, that's just not realistic. I'm a human being and my feet are on the ground. And that means that some days don't work as well as others and how to make space for that and not turn that into an opportunity to decide that I've done something wrong or to create shame about not being perfect. You know, that perfectionism thing that comes up. I mean, I call you when some of that stuff comes up, man. Sure. Yeah. And I think we all deal with it, but, you know, it's not what you put on social media. I'm not somebody who's putting that on social media. So it's not what everybody knows of your life. But finding that balance, I have a lot of tools. And I do. I take really good care of myself. I go to therapy. I have, you know, really good friends. And I've learned how to be a friend and let myself be friended. I bring my vulnerability to my relationships. You know this. You always talk about it because I'm very open. I'm very, I'm not, it's a

It's not that I'm private. I learned a long time ago because of who my mom is. I have a real sense of what I think is sacred in my life, what is for my own consumption and not for other people. And then from there, and the rest of it, I'm quite open. You know, I'm a very transparent person. It actually makes me feel very comfortable and more comfortable when I feel like I am known as opposed to, you know,

somebody's idea of me that sort of precedes me. but I don't know. I mean, I really like going to dinner. That was my favorite thing. That's what Dan, Van and I did all through COVID Friday night dinners. I just love a dinner. And it was so nice. And we were just yap and yap and yap and yap and yap and yap and sit outside and yap and then go home.

That's what I swear to God, we would talk for hours. Like we would usually, it was always the same restaurant. And it was usually the same waiter. And we would just yap and yab and yab. and yapp and yapp and yapp and yapp and yeah and then i would be like ha ha feel like i've i've been seen i've been known he's been seen he's been known good night you know and that's my favorite version of of life oh yeah i did not know that i love that i last thing i want to say it is women's yeah so and and you talk about how you want to highlight girls women um i want to give you the

opportunity to talk about a woman who inspires you in honor of women's life? You know, there's quite a few I could name. And I'll just list a whole bunch and give some reasons because I think it's great. Like Michelle Obama, of course, we all believe that she's epic. I'm actually friends with her. She's epic. Alphrey Woodard. Oh, wow.

Good one. This is a woman who is honestly the sort of fairy godmother to the majority of black women in this business. She is a space of freedom and selfhood in a way that no one can replace her. And we all have run through her heart and her embrace in some way. And I'm so grateful for it. She's created a large sisterhood in this industry. Carrie Washington, I feel like she holds a beautiful space in this world. I love what she's doing. behind the camera, in front of the camera, as a person, as a friend. Who else do we think of Samira Nasser, who is one of my best friends?

She's the editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar. I think she's killing it. I think she's redefined what a magazine can be in this day and age and how fashion can be used as a vehicle for advocacy and being owning who you are. I think her covers are incredible, and they have a sense of diversity that is everything from age to profession to all of it. I just think her Patty Smith cover was incredible. Let me think who else.

That's a good list. It's a great list, yes. My mom, my siblings, my sisters are incredible. Anna Banana. Anna Banana. One of my best friends, Anna. I work with some epic people. I have epic friends and they're just special human beings.

Yeah, bananas. Thank you for mentioning Banana. So Van knows Banana. She's my little homie. That's a little homie. Yeah, this was so much fun. It's a lot of fun. Yes.

Fun times to be had. Thank you for doing this. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Rachel, I look forward to actually poking you and saying, oh, you're real. You're not in just a square.

Oh. Same. Same. I'll poke you right back. Yeah. And then we can hug. Van, thank you. No problem.

Thank you, Trace. You guys, that was Tracy. That was Ross. should I say goodbye now? No. Let's just make it awkward for the audience. Let's see what they do. Let's see what they do.

All right, bye. We got to go. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right. Real quick. There's so many things that we got to talk about Monday.

Number one, Monday we're going to get deep, excuse me, Tuesday we're going to get deep into Tucker Carlson, Fox News and what's going on with the Dominion situation. It's crazy. Fox News is a barrel of lies. You knew that. You knew that Fox News. to parallel lies, but now there's evidence and it's

it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's mounting every single day. Um, let's get to mailback now. Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time.

Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. All right. The first one from Stubborn Kind of Fellow is a callback to Fred the Turtle. Stubborn Kind of Fellow asks, who was your favorite Ninja Turtle? Rachel. Michelangelo. He was the fun one. The party one. That's so crazy.

Is that a Donna Tep? Why? There was Michael Angela? It's just like that's such a, that's like a, you know, that's a straight up easy answer to me. Is that your answer? Everybody's favorite turtle is Michelangelo, except for mine. Donatello? Donatello. He would have been my second. He would have been my second.

The turtles don't get nothing done without Donatello. You don't got no turtle van. You don't have no lair. You have nothing. Donnie, who's your favorite? Oh, it's obviously Donatello. That was like the first growing up as a kid I'd identify with him, obviously, because they called him Donnie.

So I was like, oh shit, they're talking about me. And I mean, his headband was purple. That's the dopest of the headbands. Yeah, I like. Johnny, I didn't realize. I didn't realize how connected you were. I like, I like Raphael, but the movie version of him because they clearly made him black. In the movie, he was clearly black.

He was clearly black. He was clearly black. He was 100% black. It's so true. They clearly made him black in the movie. It was nuts. I don't get it. All right.

All right, next one is from Savon 28. They asked, what's your most flagrant, unpopular opinion, the one you know will rustle feathers? Black Panther wasn't that good, the first one? The first one? It was cool. You thought the second one was better? I liked the second one better. I did not like the second one like that.

I thought the first one was better. Look, I'll be honest with y'all. I've never been high on the first one. Black Panther movie. Like it's... I can't believe you think the second one's better. The second one to me had

a little bit more... The second one is not as better as a superhero movie, but it's better as a movie movie to me. No. First one is a movie I could just watch over and over again. Yeah. Y'all, I mean, look, this is what I'll say.

I've never had an experience in the movie theater like I did in Black Panther, ever. Ever. And it's worth that all. But like, you know, I've said this on the Midnight Boys before. Love everybody that was involved. They are top right. And the movie is good, good, good, good, good, good, good. But it's just like, you know, everybody's like, it's the best thing. Wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't like that for me. It wasn't like that for me. I take the original creed over Black Panther. I say the original creed is better than Black Panther, just as a movie.

Y'all know I don't have a hot movie take I don't know I gotta think about that What's the next question? No I can't give it give it do a bachelor A bachelor hot take Give me a bachelor hot take I don't think it's gonna last much longer And that pains me to say that

Because I have friends who work on the show How many years do you think the bachelor is going to last Going forward? Maybe three What? So you're telling me right now, by 2026, there'll be no batch. I think they might do what they did to Dancing with the Stars, move it to streaming. Apparently Dancing with the Stars did really well on streaming. I could see them moving Batchel to like Hulu or, you know, wherever dancing with the stars were streaming.

Put that out to Pastor. Oh my God. That's a hot take wage. All right, next one. The key next door asks, who's your favorite up-and-coming artists? What do you mean up-and-coming? Like music, acting? They say artists. So I would say both or other art forms.

Somebody who's like not heralded, but you think they're like big moment is coming. Dominic Fishback. Oh, Dominic Fishback is great. Fishback. Fishback. She's so great. She's such an amazing actress.

We interviewed her. No, we didn't. I interviewed her. Not for this podcast. No. Yeah, I've interviewed her before too. And she's incredibly talented. It's great.

She's the one for me. For you? So in acting, it's Ashton Sanders, who I think is like a fantastic young actor. And in music, you know Ashton Sanders. I got to see the face. In music, West Side Booker. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Ashton Sanders is great. And music is West Side Boogie. I think right now West Side Boogie is one of the greatest artists in the world. And I think West Side Boogie is such a fantastic artist to me that he's one of those artists, that the fact that he is not the dude. dude. I'm not saying he's not going to become the dude. But the fact that he's not the dude says more about the state of the art than it does about his music. I tell you, West Eye Buggy is just crazy. The music is, is introspective, is niggerish, is genius.

He could rap. He can harmonize. He can do all of it. And it's got some of that. It's got weight to it. It means something. It's meaningful. So I think, West Side Boogie. I've been on my West Side Boogie shit for a long time. So that's what I would say. Okay. I don't have a music one. Donnie, what's the, give me one more question. All right, last one. Mother of Kai 29 asked, what is an embarrassing moment you had or witnessed that now makes you laugh? I thought we've answered something like that before.

That now makes me laugh, that I have that witness or whatever. That you witnessed or experienced. Can I be honest with you guys about what's happening to me right now? Survivalance? I'm crashing. Survivance, yeah. You're the one who asked for another question. I'm, like right now in this moment, in like the last 10 minutes, 10, 15 minutes of the podcast, I crashed.

And that's the own. Yeah. That's the only thing that I would say. I've experienced as a drawback. I've been getting so, but like, I just, I crashed. Like, literally, I'll be in an hour and a half, I'll be sleep. For the night? Yeah, man, I've been sleeping.

Like, people say that it's weird. It's probably good. You're getting some sleep. Yeah, but, I mean, I can't get sleep if I got to go out and watch you drink shots. You know what I'm saying? That affects me. But, like, people say that this stuff affects your sleep, taken so early that

I crash and then I just I crash out on the cops. So I got I got to do something to figure that out. But I literally just forgot we were doing the podcast for a second and it was on mailback. I was about to shut all this shit off. Wow.

Seriously. You shut down. Real fast. Talk, Johnny, let's wrap it out of here. Let's go ahead and go. Come back. You got to go. Do we have an unexpected ally at a week? What? Stop. Take your thinking gaps off. Yours has been off. You threw that shit off. Like, what are you? you doing? Stop. Take it thinking caps off, but don't stop thinking. I'm Rachel and Lindsay.

We've lost them. He's not sure. You're by vans.