Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Guilty Verdict of Tory Lanez With Meghann Cuniff, and Anti-Blackness From the Diaspora

Episode Date: December 30, 2022

Van and Rachel react to the guilty verdict of Tory Lanez (7:07), before welcoming senior reporter for Law & Crime News Meghann Cuniff to break down the trial (35:28). Plus, Akon says Africans are better performers than African Americans (1:16:22). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Meghann Cuniff Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howe learning is on is I, Van Lytton, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. I'm excited. I feel it. What is it? A new year?

New Year's coming around the clock? I don't care about that type of stuff. Yeah, it's all the same. We have Megan Cuniff joining us today on Higher Learning. Megan, the reporter. Your go-to source for number. Non-biased and accurate talk. Say that again.

Say that again. Not bias and accurate talk about the Tory Lanes and Meg the Stalian trial. That's actually what am I doing again? I'm doing it again. It was the Tory Lanes. They start Pearson trial where, you know, the assault against Megan the stallion was litigated. And look, here's the deal. You don't have to say allegedly anymore.

Right. Tori Lane was found guilty. Tori Lane shot Meg the Stalin And I know I was biased But I was also right Oh talk your shit No I'm just saying I'm just saying I was also right

I am so glad What were you right about? Well that he did it No I know I know I also said If y'all come by me I also saying If for some reason he was found not guilty That doesn't mean that doesn't mean anything

You couldn't lose You put yourself in a situation where you couldn't lose. You were like, whatever comes out, whatever happens, this is what I believe. And you stood on your shit. But honestly, it's not about me. I'm just happy, you know, one, that it's over for Megan.

I can only imagine how dramatic that was. I'm sick of people litigating all her personal business and all these certain things and all the stereotypes that they have against women and black women and putting that out on Megan. I'm just happy that it can be over. and I hope that, you know, like she's able to move on with her life. More than anything, I'm happy with that. Well, let's go right into it since we're, since we're discussing this.

Well, it's a packed show. You know, this is the big deal of the day, obvious. We can dispense with the pleasantries. You know, we'll have, we'll have a whole fucking show next. We should do just one show, just pleasantries. Well, we just get on here, just a pleasantries episode. And we just shoot the shit with Donnie and Ashley. You know, just a pleasantry show.

I do want to. I do want to ask you one thing about before we get into it, just one thing. Did you have the Colombian alcoholic drinks at Christmas? Did you indulging them? Coquito was there. Oh! Coquito!

That's what I'm talking about. I didn't have any, though, because you know, I don't like a milky substance. What's the fuck, dog? Like, all you do, Rachel, you're such a light in my life, but the disappointments that come along with it are

so tremendous. I keep you on your toes. You got fucking coquito right in your face. You got the you got the coquito right there. You don't drinking any coquito? What do you drink?

And I feel like you put this out there because I have spent a number of Christmases with the Ava Solos and I've never once seen Coquito. And then all of a sudden it's everywhere we go. I was like, did Van? Was this a present from Van?

Did Van send this over here? Everyone's like, oh, you want some? No, I don't want some. That's not what I want. They be hiding the coquito from you. They'd be like, you come in the room, and they put the coquito behind their backs. You know what I mean?

They're like, they're like, oh, it's the little negra girl. And they put the coquito away. I would totally understand. It's the little negative girl. And they put the coquito away. They don't want you to have, Rachel, you got to, have you ever tried it before? If my in-law said that to me,

let's just pause on the negritita that you can say. Negatita. That's what they say, Brian. Let's just follow. Brian met the beautiful. I used to actually joke about that to Brian when we first got together. Like, I'm going to be paying attention to see.

I'm going to be paying attention to see if anybody says that. I know what that means. No, no, they're great. They're wonderful. They're wonderful. What did you ask me, though, about the Kokito? No, I didn't try any.

I didn't try any. I don't like, it looks like eggnog. I don't like that. That's, that texture. I like Kokito. What are you, are you wearing? What is that hat? What is that?

just a hat. But who makes the hat, though? What? Who makes the hat? I know my signal messed up. Hello? Hello? Can you hear me?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, my signal's unstable. Yeah, who makes the hat? I'm not sure. Does that say Christian Dior? It's not. Rachel, are you wearing a Christian Dior fucking biser? Have you, like, wait a minute.

Hold on for a second. Before we get into this. We got to talk about it. Are you wearing a Christian Dior? I thought we dismissed with the pleasantries. On the podcast today? Like what the fuck, I'm on vacation. I'm on vacation.

You're in Miami. You're super Miami. I'm not in Miami. I'm not in Miami. I'm not in Miami. I'm totally in my own. I'm in Palm Springs. I'm on a retreat.

I do the podcast everywhere. I swear. There's no place I will not podcast for y'all. How much does a Christian Dior? biser hat called, I'm just asking, it's not a disc. That shit is fly. Donnie jump on. Like, seriously, Donnie, jump on.

Donnie, it looks good. It looks good. It does, it does. Oh, I know it looks good. That's why I got it. You look, it looks good. Donnie, how much does the Christian Dior advisor cost? Donnie's look this up.

I have you. Correct me if I'm wrong, Rachel. I might be wrong, but the sunglasses hut says it goes for 560. nigga you pay $560 no bullshit dog on some real shit $560 for a Christian Dior a golf hat It's sunglasses it's it's a sunglasses okay That's why Donnie found them at the sunglasses That's why Donnie found them at the sunglasses

I'm wearing it on top of my head So you can see for the podcast but it's more of like It's like a sun it's a visor with sunglasses It's a big lens. It's a big lens Okay. Donnie looking like, Look at Donnie's picture right now. Everybody looks so attractive except for me.

Like, look at Donnie. You look good. Like Donnie, you look great. Donnie looks like a man of the woods. Like situation. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramfaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion

from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject tremfaya, proper training is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection,

flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair Radio.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the final with Fandul Predict.

predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms.

By the way, the hat talk is just jealousy. The hat looks great. I just don't. I just don't. As soon as you said it I was like, gosh, I'm going to be like this the whole podcast. Okay. Okay, like, so look, guys,

we gave you a little pleasantries we said we wouldn't, but the big deal that we're covering right now is kind of a retroactive big deal. Torrey Lanes was convicted of shooting Meg the stallion. A Los Angeles jury found Daystar Peterson, aka Tori Lange's guilty of three felonies in the

2020 shooting of hip-hop star Megan the stallion. He was let out during handcuffs. His father Sun Star Peterson I was very upset outside the court We'll talk about him in a second Actually you know what

Let's go ahead and play that now And react to the whole Organic globule of that now Jury of seven women and five men convicted 30 year old Daystar Peterson Assault with a semi-automatic firearm Have a loaded unregistered firearm

In a vehicle and discharging a firearm With gross negligence He is facing up to 22 years he will be sentenced in late January. This is Torley Lane's father coming out of the courtroom. You want to know exactly how I'm feeling? Yes, sir. I just stood here in this Los Angeles County

and witnessed the worst miscarriage of justice that this world has ever seen. You want to know how I feel? I'll tell you exactly how I feel. I got some names that I want to call. Alex Spiro, Desreveille Perez, and the whole wicked system of Rock Nation including you, Jay-Z.

You who say you rose from the gutter, but you have traded and bartered the souls of young men, and you're still doing it. The only independent witness in this courtroom is a man whose name is Sean Kelly. He came to court, and our attorneys, he would not even shake their hand after he went upstairs with the same.

Kathy Taugh and Alex Bart. They met on Saturday before. They met on Saturday. And then the man came back. And I sat in the hallway while he sat with Jody Little, the prosecutor's investigator, who acted so dumb, an intelligent woman who did not want, listen, I've seen so much evidence buried in this. And I know exactly what the public out here will say.

talk um okay uh a couple of things there number one when you're trying to deliver a message a lot of times you want to keep it succinct and you know this is something i have to learn you want to get right to what it is as you're saying especially if you know you're doing the booming baptist preacher thing you know hey we went from j z is the devil all the way to somebody we never heard of and it was a journey and I understand that that father is in pain because his son is, I'm not making fun of this man, that must be a terrible

terribly emotional thing to go to. I'm laughing at your choice of words. But it's, I got lost there a little bit. But, you know, that guy's going to be probably the number one podcaster of 2023. He'll definitely, we'll definitely see more of him. He'll, the YouTube page is already being set up. But look, I understand why they're upset.

They're going to be without their son for a while. they're going through pain as a family but that was all over the place. I'll ask you your feelings when you heard the verdict. Well, first when I heard

Sunstar speak outside the Corp Room, it all made sense to me. It made sense if these are the people that you're, and I get that this is your family, right? And obviously they're going to stand up for their child. I say that, but I feel like if I was on trial for this,

I don't think the judge was standing up. up for me. I think he'd be like, let the system play out. Really? Let the system play out. I don't know. I don't know. You'd be like, Rachel, the evidence ain't looking too good against you. My dad is, I really think that at the end of the day, you know, maybe I'm, he might be upset for me for saying that. So let's stay here for one second. Obviously, that looks crazy, right? Because it's so raw, it's so whatever. But, I mean, that's his dad. Like, I'm expecting.

expecting him to believe in. If you've ever loved anyone who's been on trial or been through a trial, you believe in what they say and you feel you want to see this person free. So what would you expect from his father? I guess, no, I would expect him to be like, obviously it's a sad day for us. This is, this is he's to y'all. He's storylines to us. He's, you know, Dave Starpiterson is our son.

He grew up. I understand all of that. I would have been better. But the, the accusation. against, I don't understand, maybe you can help me. I don't understand where the Rock Nation of it all came in. I don't understand the pointing out of Sean Kelly, who was a witness in the trial, who apparently witnessed the shooting from his apartment room, bedroom.

I don't understand how we went from there to there. I don't understand the accusing other people in the midst of it all. I understand the pain. I don't understand that. It just seemed very performative, and it looked like somebody who wanted their moment in front of the cameras. I mean, he was even telling other people to shut up so he could have his moment. I don't know what I would do if I was in that situation. I don't know what it is to feel that kind of pain. So, yes, I'm assuming what I would be in that situation. And I'm making up

assumptions on what he was doing. But it just seemed erratic and on over the place. And he was saying certain things that he knew would make headlines and get attention, which it did. I saw one person say that he was upset that he was upset that he lost his meal ticket. And that stuck with me. it stuck with me. So that's just, okay, I get it. I'm sorry. I couldn't let it. I couldn't let it.

It stuck with me. Well, it's hard for me. I am so sorry for saying this and I know everyone's going to come at me. It's so hard for me to have any type of sympathy. No, they do. They talk about how biased I am or when Rachel hates black men. That's a huge narrative. But Rachel hates black men.

She doesn't support about men. She's not logical when it comes to talking and discussing with black women. It is hard for me to have any sympathy for Tori Lanes for how he completely came at Megan the Stallion. It is really hard for me. I'm not even just talking about what he was on trial for. I'm talking about the way he came at her on social, the way he tried to turn people against her and speak of her in such a derogatory way. The things that he planted out there and tried to put out there, I can't see. I don't have sympathy for him.

I think he's getting exactly what he deserves. So, sorry. It's hard for me. It's hard for me to see any other way. I don't disagree with you there. I think it would have been probably easier to have sympathy for his dad if the points that you made before weren't so salient. If it didn't seem like he was, you know, centering himself and having his moment. Look, I've been in courtrooms before and seeing families that have to watch loved ones go away for a long time.

Yeah. I have had three different uncles do long stretches. A number of cousins, people like brothers to me do long stretches. And I know the strain that it puts on the family, even when in the back of your mind, you know them niggas did that shit. You know, that doesn't stop a mother from missing. Her son doesn't stop all of that. Now, that don't take anything away from the families or the victims or anything like that

or the fact that just for harmony, we have to have justice in society. So it's not the pain of the family or the fact that they're sad about it that in any way I relate to. It's the fact that there still seem to be like to your point in that just zero accountability and almost an attack. You know what I mean? An attack against people who he felt like wronged his son. Once again, it's a big conspiracy, it seemed like. But I understand that man being upset that his son is going to be gone for X amount of years. We have Megan CUNIF on the show.

We'll bring her in right after this. And she'll give you a little bit, guys, a little bit more information about the trial itself, the story of Torrey Lanes and Meg the stallion as it relates to this particular criminal trial. And we asked her a lot of great questions about the media and what she thinks is going to happen to Tori now. But I do want to get back to your feelings when the verdict was first read. When you first heard the verdict, you as a black woman, someone who's been very outspoken, very passionate about the trial and what you felt like it meant. How did you feel? It was a really weird experience when I got nervous, right?

I think it was Ashley who first said, you know, that they have a verdict. And I was, you know, in Miami, enjoying the pre-Christmas time, my vacation. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know what I want to know. I don't know if I want to know it. I don't want to be upset. But once it came out and it seemed to come out very quickly that he was guilty. And on all three charges, I really just let out a sigh of relief. And I say all this.

I know it's not about me. Okay. I know this is about Megan. But I just let out a sigh of relief because it just felt exhausting having to defend Megan and having people, Megan as a person, Megan, for the things that she does outside of the studio or in her private time, having to, it just seemed to be that it felt like black women were on trial. And I know y'all are going to say I'm being very dramatic. But the way that this played out in the court of public opinion, it felt that.

that way. It felt like there were certain stereotypes, not felt that way. There were being these, there were these stereotypes that were placed on black women. And, you know, that Megan was exaggerating, that Megan was this, that Kelsey was this person. And I just seemed that nobody but black women, not I shouldn't say nobody with black women, but it just seemed like black women had their back against the wall and were on the defense when it came to how people were litigating this case with their opinions against Megan. And I just, just felt like vindicated in the sense of, okay, the justice system doesn't always work, but despite everything that was happening outside of the courtroom, they allowed the case to be

tried in front of this jury and the jury paid attention to the evidence that was in front of them and made a decision based off that, not on Megan the stallion and her personal life choices. And that's what I wanted to see at the end of the day. And I was hoping, and I really tried not to pay attention to too much on social media because I didn't want to get upset. I just wanted to take in the fact that this man was found guilty. And now people can move on. I tried not to take in what people were going to say once he was found guilty. I just wanted to rest in that he was.

And that was it. And, you know, I moved on from there. I don't know. I didn't dwell on it too much. I thought I would. I probably would have more if he was found not guilty. But I was like, okay, this is exactly what needs to be done. Or what needed to be done was done.

And now I can move on. I understand all of that. I think that there was something, and we should talk about it. So when the verdict came in, I didn't have any emotional reaction. Sure. I think the reaction was that's pretty, much like what I thought would happen because I believed her story from the beginning. And there are parts of the story that I think offer great lessons for people. And I think that there are so many

things to be taken from this for black men and black women for everyone, really, okay, for everybody. in this situation you know it's my belief that Torrey lanes grabbed the gun and started shooting at the ground for whatever reason

to be funny to scare to whatever and a bullet kicked up and hit Megan the stallion and that constitutes him shooting her right I think if he had wanted to aim the gun

and shoot her in the thigh shoot her in the kneecap shooter in a chest shooter in the arm that he could have probably done that right but i want people when i say that i want people to understand that that's not a defense or in any way and out for him i want people to understand the seriousness of taking a weapon a loaded gun and shooting it at somebody in their direction for whatever reason however you men I want people to understand the seriousness of doing that and what that means. You shot a gun at her.

She got shot. You shot her. Doesn't matter why you shot her. Doesn't matter what you were attempting to do. What matters is the cavalier way in which you abused her using a firearm because that's what happened. So there has to be a whole globule of understanding behind just how ridiculous unsafe and traumatizing that night was for her.

Like, people have to really understand that. People have to really understand like, you know, I grew up around guns my entire life. You don't point a gun at somebody for fun. I never forget, it's messing around one time, and I never seen my cousin get his ass with more. Like, his gun was unloaded. we were getting ready to go deer hunter He took the gun and he pointed at me like

Wow you a buck Man his daddy grabbed him Put him down in the dirt It's like yo don't you ever Point a gun at somebody Unless you intend to kill them If that gun was loaded and it go off No more van and you didn't kill your cousin

And now we got to stay here and deal with it. He's like, you just don't have any other. Like, these things are real. Yeah, yeah. And so for what she has had to go through, whatever people meant to have happened that night or whatever was going through or however they got there, the only thing that, the only thing that matters is that she was attacked.

She identified her attacker. She told the entire world what her attacker had done to her. And it bore out in the court of law. That's it. I do when we put some time between the case, I want to talk about how I don't think that we should internalize cases like this as being attacks on our identities as much as what we do. Because when we do that, I think we get into, sometimes we get into these intractable wars to where things are, more about how it feels to us than they are about what actually happened. Right.

And I think that there has to be, we have to be able to have these conversations and give them space because as much as you're saying you feel like this was an attack on black women, I'm not saying that that's irrational in any way. There are guys who feel like it was an attack on black men. it's not an attack because they feel like there's a history in America of black men being accused of assaults by women and it not being true by women period by women period and it's not and it's and it's and it's and it's not true the reality is in a way that's a fact it's not a in a way that's a fact how about this it's not a fact in the grand scheme of things but the The narrative is absolutely a fact. When you look back at what you're taught, when you're a kid, you're taught, hey, the Tulsa race riots were over a rape accusation. You know, some girl, some poor, unfortunate soul said that Tori Lands was the new Emmett Till.

Whether or not this narrative is actually true, there have been factual events, let me say it like that, that have reinforced this narrative to where this is how you get a black man. And so when you make it about black men and when you make it about an attack on us rather than an attack on Megan, I feel like we lose the ability to litigate it rationally and logically and talk about the fact that in the vast majority of assault and rape cases, like women are telling the truth. But the more we emotionalize things, the less we can actually get to the center of them to be able to discuss them in a way the facts and figures bear out. I agree with you. And I think the reason that I take it personal and I say, oh, I could breathe a sigh of relief. And I felt like my back was against the wall and I'm speaking as a black woman is because you're absolutely right. That's how it should be. But to me, I wouldn't have to be this way if there weren't these attacks that were slung at towards Megan.

I felt the people who have my perspective were on the defense because of the way it was to me, it's like, hey, this man shot. this woman, allegedly at the time, shot this woman, let's let it play out in the court of law. But that's not what happened. It immediately put, just as we have said, as we discussed it, it became Megan the Stallion on trial, as opposed to this is Daystar Peterson, like the State versus Daystar Peterson. And it became her name that was put in front of it. And she became on trial. Or she was put on trial. And that is why I speak from, as people call me, you know, a.

bias point of view or even from an emotional point of view because I immediately felt like I needed to take up and speak on her behalf because for some reason this woman is the victim, but yet she has become and her life has become the center of this trial. And that's not how it should be. But you're right. I agree with you. I guess I'm just explaining why I became the way that I did because I don't think it was black women who hurled these attacks first. I think it was them being on the defense for because of how the way things were coming at Megan. which was outrageous to me. I don't even know how that started.

I understand the narrative that you're saying, but let's just look at the fact that's simple, black and white. A gun went off. He's being accused. This woman was clearly shot. And let's just let it play out. Let's hear the evidence as it comes out.

So this is what I'll say. The moment that there's speculation, he comes out and he intimates that he didn't do it, she comes out and she says that he did do it. You now have a he said, she said, at least in the court of public opinion, that he said she said is going to be completely devoid of any rationality until the facts come out, right? So it's just, at that point, it's just going to be about who you like more. That's it. It's not, or like, if you one of these niggas that's like, I'm hard on hoes, bitches be lying, you are going to believe Tori Lanes, even if there's a picture of him holding the gun with blood all of us.

over it, right? If you are on the other side of it and you're like, whatever Megan says, I'm with her, she's the victim. It's not the only thing that matters is what the facts were. I'll be honest with you. O.J. Simpson killed two people, right? He killed them. The brilliance of the O.J. Simpson, and you can legally say that because he, you can't say he murdered anybody, but you can say he killed two people because the wrongful death situation, OJ. Simpson was found liable for it, right? If you go back and look at that case, the amount of evidence that puts OJ Simpson at the scene of the crime with DNA all over him and having killed those people. That's not what and Johnny's brilliant and he did his job.

That's not what was on trial there. What was actually on trial there was race relations between black people and white people in the city of Los Angeles. And because they were so putrid right there only a couple of years after the riots, what ended up happening is the verdict of that case was that it wasn't that OJ Simpson was not guilty it was that L.A. County was guilty of having fucked over black people here for generations and everybody was like fuck it we don't give a fuck so when I'm saying they were never going to win they weren't going to win and Johnny knew that Johnny had been around for a long time understood

understanding he raised a reasonable doubt. Mark Furman and all the N-word stuff. And when you go back and look at that trial, like, well, it wasn't a murder trial anymore. It was a socioeconomic trial. It was a trial of the racial soul of Los Angeles. What I'm saying is, I don't think that this particular case, to me, should have ended up a trial of the distrust

between black men and black women. And the only reason why I say that is the only reason why I say that is because the people that were on the edges in terms of the men in this that just didn't want to believe it, yo, they're so far out there that they represented a completely illogical look at everything that was happening. The only reason why I was critical of Meg when she, when she, she lied to Gil King was because in that position, I felt like that was a disservice to everyone who had believed in her and advocated on her behalf that, yo, we don't need you to be Squeaky King.

I don't give a fuck who you fucking. But don't put us in the situation to where, like, everybody's like, look, that bitch lying. Then I'm like, wow. Like, but I get the whole thing. Okay. I understand the whole thing. Wait, can I just say something?

You said every, the people on the others, like, who, you know, are taken up for Tori are on so far. you know, on like one opposite into the spectrum. It's whatever. Is that true when you have people like Drake putting out a lyric? That's a fair point. Or people in the just and not to just sing out Drake, even though I will. But other people in the community supporting her with clout.

Not her, sorry, supporting him with clout. You can't say that it's that. And then easily influencing other people. well, if this person would know, this person's in the industry, this person would know, you know, so you can't say that. So this is what I would react to that. This is what I would say to it. I think a lot of times we put,

like we're in the habit right now of putting, like these rappers are that far out there. These, like, for the most part, The thing I like about I have a lot of friends in hip hop, but like a lot of friends, most of them are unrelatable to people. The relatable ones, the ones who I talk to that are real people that I text back and forth with, that we have real conversations and like are real human beings that are just talented and are not these many divas unto themselves that share their vulnerabilities that I talk to. They know who they are. like they know who they are and they know what's up and they know what's going on people be getting on glasses ass glasses from the beginning of this was like yo tory had something to do with this

from the beginning of it glass was like tory did that right now he doesn't think he should go to jail for it because he's got this warped sense of whatever like he's just like he doesn't think anybody should ever go to jail he doesn't want him to go to jail he would rather the streets take care of it. But, but, but, uh, so when I say that are far out there, I'm talking about how black men and black women who don't have any dog in this particular fight, how they relate to one another. Like, I in my average everyday life do not talk to a lot of people who view Megan the

Stallion in the way that I was seeing the manosphere view her. And that's not to say that that. That's not a lot more guys than I think. It's not, it's just to say that we have to be able to kind of, we have to be able to really have conversations that are based in like what's happening and not how much hurt we have between one another. And I think it's up to black men like the guys that, that I have in my tribe and more gentlemen that I want to have in a tribe, to be like, look, if a woman says that a man shot her,

I believe her. I believe her. Yeah. The case comes out. analyze things as they happen, but I believe her when she says that. And there's nothing wrong with saying that. Just like if you go, if you, if you be on your job tomorrow and you say, my boss called me a nigger, I'm not going to come back and be like, well, I need to hear the

tape. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like my boss called me a nigger. I'm boycotting. I'm going to be like, why? I'm not. You're like, nah, I need to hit a tape. Nah, let's, I need to hit a tape.

If I don't hit a tape, that never happened. If you say your boss called you a nigger, I'm going to be like, shit. Where the boy got out. Now, if it comes out that he didn't call you a nigger, and by the way, guys, we've been here before, okay? If it comes out that he didn't call you a nigger, no, I mean the culture has, I'm not getting into it. Oh.

Like if it comes out that it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. Oh. Okay. Okay. Let me a second. If it comes out that it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. but the belief is I think what women are sometimes asking for but I do think that the people that were saying

that you were biased super biased in this I think they have a little bit of a point Rachel and I think that you've admitted that like you were you were pretty biased yeah I literally said I couldn't have lost I was like even if she was found not guilty we've seen this before yeah yeah yeah no no no I know but it doesn't mean that I that I hate black men, which is what they all with the

van, stop it. You don't love them. I'm just joking. I'm just playing. I'm playing. I'm playing. I'm playing.

I'm seriously playing. Okay. We've been on this for a little while already. We're going to give you guys a little bit of a supersized episode because we got to go to something else. But we have to bring in Megan Kuneff right now from law and crime. We're spending an inordinate amount of time on Meg the Stallion and Tori Lanes. But Megan was right there.

She's now Megan. the reporter. You're going to get more information about the trial that goes on, what happened, what we're right, what we're wrong in the next 30 minutes with Meg than you got anywhere else. I want you guys to tune in on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion. from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine

used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya today.

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. You guys, we are really, really lucky to have an exploding media star on our show today. Megan the reporter joins us today. You know her from her outstanding coverage of the People versus Daystar Peterson. It's of course, Tori Lanes. Her name is Megan Cuniff.

She is a senior reporter for Law and Crime News. She has written for The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, and many other publications. We are excited to have her on higher learning today to dive a little bit deeper into the trial that, of course, had social media in a tizzy. Megan, thank you for joining us.

My first question for you. Yeah. The defense said that they were absolutely shocked when the verdict was right, that they thought it was going the other way 100%. Of course, we know Torrey Lanes found guilty on all three counts. you were there reporting, giving us basically up to the minute reports on the goings-on inside of the court and what was happening, the way the evidence was unfolding in the trial.

The question is, were you shocked when the verdict was read? No, at that point, I was expecting it to be a guilty. We were thinking with how long they were taking, maybe they would have a hung jury. So we were thinking if by the end of Friday they didn't have a verdict, maybe they would announce they were hung and they would have to come back next week. or something like that. But when they announced a verdict, just the experience with criminal cases like that, it's going to be a guilty, just based on kind of the timing, like a not guilty verdict would probably take longer. And then just sitting in the courtroom and looking at the looks on some of those women jurors, the women juror faces especially. I mean, especially during the closing

argument, I was like, okay, these women do not agree with Tori's lawyer at all. I mean, you can just tell by the look on their faces when they're listening. to this that they're not agreeing with him. So granted, that's not the entire jury, but just when you see those faces, I mean, you're kind of trying to read the tea leaves, but it's like, I don't think that lady likes you kind of look kind of thing. So they're on the jury, there's going to be an argument there. And, you know, maybe there would be one or two people who disagree with them and wanted to

find a not guilty. But I just thought the looks on their faces were like so clearly, like, they are not buying this, you know, Kelsey is the actual shooter. And Tori was just trying to break up a fight. And these women were just so jealous about sexual relationships and stuff. It was the kind of defense that maybe it played really well, like on the blogs and in social media. But in a courtroom in front of a jury, it just seemed like a tough one to get across. So I was frankly shocked that they said that they were shocked by the verdict because I don't think any like experienced criminal defense attorney would say something like that and mean it because you would have to warn your client that, you know, anything could happen.

Like you can go in and argue the best case and have all your witnesses go really well. And he would still have to warn Tory that like, look, there's a chance that you could get convicted here. Like guaranteeing anyone and not guilty would be really bad. So I was frankly just shocked that he said he was shocked. That's really interesting, Megan, because we covered not in the same way that you did, but, you know, we discussed some of the things that were coming out in the headlines in regards to the trial. and it seemed reading, you know, social media or even some of the articles that people were really split and didn't know what was going to happen. So the fact that, you know, after closing

arguments, you had a completely different thought is really, really interesting. Okay, I thought I lost you for a second. I can. I want to know how problematic do you think it was that there, or maybe it wasn't, that there weren't cameras in the courtroom, which we know sometimes can help a little bit more when the public can see what's going on. And maybe that would have taken away from some of this e-lawyering we saw, our sideline lawyering we saw from people on social media. Do you think it any way that that was problematic to what was going on with this case? I think it definitely could have helped the public to have cameras in the courtroom,

because anytime you have more access to the courts, I think that's always a good thing. But then I also kind of wonder if it would lead to even more armchair lawyering. Like we saw with, you know, Johnny Depp and Amber Hurd, because that was, you know, all broadcast, but people were still doing their own live streams and that kind of thing and kind of injecting their own opinion. And I really tried to ignore a lot of that coverage. Like when I'm trying to cover a trial, I'm like so busy covering the trial that I can't

really focus on anything else. But I did happen to catch some of the commentary here and there and had to just laugh at how off it was. I'm like, just because you're a lawyer doesn't mean you know anything about jury trials. I mean, really. And even if you're a practicing lawyer, there are some lawyers who would admit that they don't know anything about a jury trial or a criminal case. So some of these people who were talking, I mean, it was just kind of comical. And one thing I noticed is when you talk to, like, judges and prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys, when they talk about a case, they talk about proving it, I mean, the standard is

definitely beyond a reasonable doubt. But what I thought was interesting was I would hear like, YouTube commentators being like, wow, I really think there's some reasonable doubt in this case. And that's not really how lawyers talk about a case. Because, I mean, the idea that a defense attorney can just get up there and say anything, say, oh, well, the mailman might have done it. And it's like, oh, well, now there's doubt in the case. It's like the key word with reasonable doubt is reasonable.

And when you have 12 jurors back, they're deciding, you know, they can kind of decide what's reasonable. So one person on YouTube saying, oh, I think there's reasonable doubt here. It's like, well, would you think that if you went back and had to talk to 11 other people who just saw all the same evidence and, you know, maybe see it differently? Like, there's always like the whole aspect of jury deliberations that I think people need to consider. So I want to come back to your answer in the first question that I asked you because I already know my antennas go up and I already know what some people are going to say.

Some people are going to say that when you said that you looked at specifically the women's faces in the case and that they weren't buying it, they're going to, this has been litigated very heavily online as a man versus woman situation in particular areas of the internet. Like we want Tori to be innocent because he's a man. And there are other people who say, well, we want Tori to be innocent because it means something about womanhood. When it's been put people have been pitied against each other that way is what I'm saying. Do you feel like any of the women on the jury were, I'm asking, I'm trying not to ask you to jump in their heads. But based off what you said, do you feel like they were empathizing with me? Meg, or do you feel like from the preponderance of the evidence, they felt like he shot her? I probably a little bit of both. I think definitely emphasizing with Meg and just kind of the dynamic

of her and Kelsey's friendship falling apart. I mean, there's so much drama in everything with that. But the prosecutor in his closing argument kind of summed it up as, you know, a really messy game of telephone and whatever happened with their friendship happened because of stuff. that happened after the shooting. And I think women could kind of relate to like the friendship and the best friend dynamic between Megan and Kelsey. And then there was so much evidence about what immediately happened after the shooting, like Kelsey texting Megan's security guard.

And then the video of them when they were pulled over by police and just their demeanor. And you can see Kelsey yelling out to, I thought it sounds like she says, Meg, are you okay? But apparently she says, like, baby, are you okay? But the prosecutors were kind of showing. this is Kelsey was acting as a best friend in like the immediate aftermath to that. So I think women could kind of pick up on that,

but it also just kind of depends on your experience and everything. And one reason I was so in tune to the women's faces was just because that seat of the jury box was like what we could see most. The kind of men on the jury were a little farther away. But I thought it was interesting when they did the jury polling the older black man who was on the, jury really shouted yes. I mean, it was kind of like his only chance to really have like a say in the courtroom or anything. The only chance you ever really heard his voice. And when they asked him if it was his verdict, he just said, yes, like really loud. And I mean, I just took it to mean as his like emphatic way of saying like he believes this is guilty. And he probably finds the defense on it kind of offensive.

The idea that they would go and blame Kelsey and say that Kelsey is the one who shot when, you know, they've even got a recording of him apologizing for it in jail. But, you know, as Tori's lawyer said, he never actually says in that recording what he's apologizing for. So that was kind of left open. There was a lot of talk around either witnesses that didn't show up or witnesses that changed their testimony. Do you see there being any type of charges being made against the bodyguard?

Sorry, I can't think of his name at the moment, or even Kelsey. at this point. Yeah. Yeah, Justin Edison, the bodyguard not showing up. And I know Meg's team had kind of highlighted that. And we never heard from him. And I'm not sure if he would get charged for dodging a subpoena. Probably not.

It did sound like prosecutors were, you know, getting close, just the way they were talking to Kelsey and warning her about perjury, that she could face, you know, some kind of perjury for her testimony on the stand that, you know, she didn't see Tori with the gun. and that she said things in the September interview that weren't true. I'm not sure if they'll actually do that. It will be interesting to see, you know, if they do pursue charges. I'm kind of thinking, you know, maybe they wouldn't.

And I don't want to like downplay perjury and say that, oh, it just happens all the time. But it kind of, I mean, it does here and there. And, you know, before they bring perjury charges against Kelsey Harris, hopefully they bring perjury charges against the uniform public officials who lied in the Kobe. right. Just photos trial. But, you know, there's a lot of perjury to choose from here. And I think they would have sympathy for Kelsey's situation in that while we don't see

like witness recants on the stand and like big high profile celebrity trials a lot, like criminal prosecutors and judges say they do see it a lot in just kind of low profile cases that aren't getting a lot of attention, like domestic violence cases and then cases involving like gang unit prosecutions. you'll get original statements to DA's that then the witness gets up on the stand and recants. And they say that usually because you have that ability to ask them about their previous statements, that just with the demeanor and everything of the witness is just kind of obvious to the jury of what happened. And it kind of seemed like that's what it would have been with Kelsey.

I mean, the way they were able to kind of highlight her September statements and then just how kind of subdued she was on the witness stand. But it was also kind of a crapshoot. I mean, that was kind of a weird moment for the case where it was like, okay, this, I mean, that was like their star witness and she didn't say what they thought that she was going to say, you know. But Tori's lawyer then got up and hammered her so hard about, you know, prosecutors pressuring her in the September interview that it enabled them to play the entire September interview. So that normally wouldn't have happened. And that was, I mean, that really gave the jury a chance to just sit there for 80 minutes and hear Kelsey. I mean, it almost sounded like she was kind of in a counseling session. She was just kind of like letting it all out kind of thing.

So injures are allowed to consider demeanor. So they had Kelsey up on the stand, you know, really withdrawn and subdued, didn't want to say anything. But then they're able to hear her like candid, comfortable interview. And it's like, which do they think is going to be more believable, you know? So. Well, speaking of that moment, what were the best and worst moment? for the prosecution and the defense during this case. Do you think that the defense, his attorneys that,

these are pretty high profile expensive attorneys, do you think that they did a great job defending him? I know there were some last-minute changes in Tori's defense team. Like, I think he had Sean Hawley for a while. Shout out, Sean. Yeah, George McDeezyn took over. And I mean, Sean is really experienced in press conferences and she's done a lot of cases. But, I mean, when you just look at the way this case was put together and, I mean, they just didn't seem to put that much time and effort into it.

And part of it is just last minute, you know, there's only two of them and they're in court all day. So it's not like when they get home, they can, you know, go do all this work. But what I thought was really interesting was I couldn't really keep up with the Twitter replies. but I did see some people sharing excerpts of transcripts from the court, like the actual trial transcripts that you get from the court reporter. And you can order those same day, but they're really expensive. I mean, they've got to be like $1,000 at least to get a transcript like that. And the attorneys get them because they're using it to work. And especially when you're putting together a closing argument and putting together your slideshow, you'll take excerpts from the transcript and kind of highlight it up there for jurors.

So I thought it was interesting that, I mean, it was pretty clear that. somebody in Tori's team was like sending out a trial transcript or working with, you know, some of the social media and YouTube bloggers to try to sway public opinion. But then when it came time for Tori's lawyer to give his closing argument, he didn't have a PowerPoint and there were no like transcript experts being shown to the jury. It was like, okay, the whole reason you're getting those transcripts isn't to like take little quotes and put it out on Twitter to try to stir the conversation there because jurors are not paying attention of that at all. I mean, and the fact that lawyers are doing that in trial, I mean, that is problematic.

It's like you've got a client who's facing 23 years here. You need to be focusing on the case and not worrying about social media at all. So I thought that was, I mean, unfortunate for Tori, too, because there were some things that came up, especially in the closing argument when his lawyer brought up this pause between the shots. I can't remember if it's a pause after the second shot or a pause after the third shot. But it was kind of like, oh, yeah, and I'm like, why didn't we hear a lot more about this during trial, you know? It just seemed like it was kind of a fly-by-night defense for him, honestly.

And I think any lawyer who was like very prepared, it would have been kind of a hard case because, I mean, the idea that saying that, you know, Tori was just trying to break up the fight between these two women who were just warring, because I think people can understand women getting jealous about a man and, you know, fight. and pulling each other's hair. But the idea that one of them would then, you know, fire five rounds at the other one, I think kind of starts to cross into like gender science areas that maybe, maybe we'll just be hard for jurors to accept.

So they really needed to like present a case that like focused on that more. But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's always, it's always kind of easier said than done though. And it's a matter of resources when you have, you know, how many attorneys do you actually have working on the case and who's in the courtroom and who's not? that kind of thing. It's so interesting. No, no, no, no. It's interesting what you're saying.

It's so interesting that you mentioned that about the transcripts and then, you know, possibly leaking them to the public because it seems that prior to the actual trial starting, it seemed that Tory Lanes and those surrounding him were trying to try this case in the court of public opinion as if that was going to transfer into the actual trial. And it was going to be, I don't know, the same standard. or he'd be judged the same way. And you're not in your head. So I'm assuming that that's the case.

And before you answer that, because I feel like it might go to that, was the jury sequestered? No, they weren't sequestered. They were ordered regularly, you know, not to read any social media about the case or consume anything. And I've heard mixed reviews on whether people actually do that. A criminal defense attorney who's done a lot of trials in like Oklahoma said, you know, they all, they all violate that. But then a clerk who actually deals with jurors all the time, like the one who gets them from the lunchroom and takes them back into the jury room, she says she doesn't think they do, that they actually take it really seriously. And I've seen incidents of like jurors, like ratting out another juror when they found out that she had done like outside research and stuff.

So we didn't have any incidents like that come up in trial. And I mean, maybe there was some outside influence, but everyone seemed pretty, you know, intuned and focused on the case. That's why another lawyer told me she represented Kevin Spacey in that civil case, just said that the civil sexual battery case in New York and won it. And she said she thinks lawyers spend way too much time worried about outside publicity and the noise outside the courtroom and not nearly enough time worrying about the courtroom. Let's talk about, obviously, in this particular case, there's been a lot of conversation over your reporting and,

some other reporting that was done on the, I guess, more mainstream media side of it versus the reporting that was done by various other outlets that people categorize as blogs. What do you think the difference in that information that was being disseminated in this particular case was? why do you think this the difference in the reporting became such a narrative during this particular trial? Do you think that any of those organizations were particularly irresponsible with some of the things that they were putting out about the trial? I'm not sure any any organization in particular that I paid attention to. I mean, one thing that just struck me was, I mean, how personal it is for a of people and people have been following it for so long so they know so much about it that i mean

they're so focused on the process or the details of the case that i was able to learn a lot about the details of the case just from the coverage but i mean kind of the tone of it in the approach of it i mean i it took me about a day of being in the courtroom to realize that it was actually like really big news that tory's lawyer was admitting that mcgian was shot i mean and to me i mean And who no lawyer would be stupid enough to get up there and try to argue she wasn't shot when there's like x-rays and a surgeon testifying. But I just realized that, I mean, all the line. I mean, Drake has that new song where he says that, you know, she lies about being shot, but she's still a stallion. And I guess we could, you know, go the Tory Lane's route with his apology call and say, you know,

Drake never actually says what Megan lied about in there. So maybe Drake's just upset that Megan didn't come forward sooner to the cops and use that stepping on glass. line. But I think it's pretty obvious. He's trying to say that she was lying and that she was never actually shot. And it was just, it's just unbelievable to me that there's like a narrative out there that she's that says that she wasn't shot because it's just, I mean, she was clearly shot. I mean, that was just kind of shocking to go in and see that. But I also think it's, I mean, to say that they were, I wouldn't want to like call out anyone in particular and like say that they were irresponsible because, you know, not everyone just hangs out in a courthouse all day.

So, I mean, when you cover a case, there's always like kind of the courthouse reporters, but then there's new reporters who are like original to the case. And you kind of just realize that you can learn a lot about them. And sometimes they'll approach things. We have this in the Harvey Weinstein case too, where they're like social media blogger type. And when you look at what they're doing, they're like, okay, you don't really have like the journalism training and background, but you have the drive to do it. and it kind of almost says something about the traditional media in journalism industry that like

the people who are interested in this stuff don't feel like they have a place in mainstream media want to kind of do their own thing but don't feel supported or have any opportunities. So kind of the training and ethics that comes with like traditional newspapers is kind of, I mean, maybe they don't really get all that into their own thing. Although I will say that some of it I just think was malicious. I mean, some of it was just they didn't really understand maybe the court process. so they were too focused on this. But other stuff, I just, I mean, they're just, you know, calling Megan names and

speculating about her sex life, basically. It just seemed like, I mean, I was amazed that the first day on the opening statements, I went and saw a headline that was totally focused on this one line that George McDeecheon kind of dropped in about DeBaby and Ben Simmons. And, you know, Kelsey and Megan had both, you know, it happened with DeBee and Ben Simmons before. And I was just like, wow, what an, appropriate thing for a lawyer to be like say i mean you're just speculating about like a 27 year old woman's sex life and in my head i was like okay you better have some witnesses who testify about that

or you were like like such a jackass in front of these people and he never really did so i mean it was just things like oh my god but i didn't believe it that some people were like that was the big headline of the day was oh de baby and ben simmons are involved in this no they're not yeah yeah that that's that is Exactly what was happening. That's that whole court of public opinion. They were litigating her sex life as if that would have some sort of influence inside of the courtroom. And I do think that there was particularly a guy, and I'm not sure if he was an attorney or not. And, man, you can correct me.

There's particularly a guy who was constantly reporting on what was going on. And he was on a lot of the bigger social media blogs. The lawyers for worker guy. Yeah, he is an attorney. He's a labor attorney in New York, apparently. from what I know. But his reporting, his reporting had opinions in it. And I think that was, so he's a lawyer, so obviously credible, but he was giving up,

he was like, well, I think she sounded believable. And it was that kind of stuff that I think was swaying people in a completely different way than maybe what was actually going on inside of the courtroom. It wasn't just reporting what was happening. He was giving his opinion on it as well. Yeah, yeah. I saw it. And that was the one that made me just think, you know, just because you're a lawyer,

doesn't mean you know anything about jury trials. I mean, really. But I mean, I think people will, you know, kind of look to that for, you know, any type of credibility that they could get. And, you know, I really try to, I mean, I'm trying to not, you know, I mean, I was flattered that everyone kind of was saying I was, you know, non-biased and they were able to get just the facts for me. Because to me, there's so much going on in the courtroom that, I mean,

if you had an opinion about things, where would you have room to, it when you're trying to include all these quotes that you just got. But there are sometimes some points with trials. And I kind of felt like this with the, the Kobe Bryant's crash photos trial, that journalism and legal affairs reporting isn't just about one side or two siding everything, you know, that to be fair, you know, you give half of the article to the prosecution and then the other half of the article to the defense. It's like if you start seeing things going on in the courtroom where it's like, okay, I don't think Tori is getting really actually. the best advocacy in that courtroom, just the way some of this seems a little, you know,

not planned out, the way his star defense witness didn't seem to have really been pressed much or talked too much before he went up there. I mean, there's stuff that you can kind of see as a courthouse reporter that you can just start. I mean, I mean, and it's technically an opinion, you know, it's an opinion for me to say that it was, I thought it was weird that he was obviously taking trial transcripts and using it, but we never saw anything about it in a closing argument. But I mean, and those are the kind of opinions I would feel like comfortable,

like saying, but anything about, I don't know, you just try to keep a level of integrity to it. And, you know, just hope that if you just stick to what you know and the facts and what's true, you know, you'll just,

you know, shine through that and leap everything behind. That particular guy, they said, inside the court sitting with Tori's family. Did you ever see that? He was in court for the media line. He had a media pass like everyone else. I did see him, you know, saying hi to Tori's lawyer here and there. And really what I was just amazed by was that George was doing this. It's like you're doing a jury trial. You are really busy right now. Like your client's fate is in your hand.

You should not be paying attention to this Lawyers for Worker YouTube guy who cares what he's saying on YouTube right now. Is he saying it in front of the jury? No, like, don't pay attention to this stuff. I mean, to have lawyers doing that, it's just, I mean, it's not good for the profession. You guys need to be doing a better job for your clients. What do you feel like the defense lost the case? I feel like things were going well for them. And they had kind of a moment with Kelsey's testimony, but it really wasn't good when the judge agreed to allow her entire September interview to come in. because that kind of piecemeal process that the prosecutor has to go through, like asking her about one statement here and there. It's like such a process that you're never going to get the entire interview in.

So being it, that was a real moment for the prosecution was just having the jury just sit down and hear the whole thing. But I also kind of wonder if from the beginning, I mean, it just comes down to a gender thing. And, you know, this will probably like spark a big debate. But I kind of winced when Torrey's lawyer's first words to the jury were. jealousy. This is about jealousy, ladies and gentlemen. And it's like trying to make it kind of the hysterical women, you know, you just can't control women. You never know what they're going to do. Get a couple of them in a room together, you know, kind of thing. And I'm like, I'm not sure that defense is going to play very well here. And I don't think it did. But then again, one thing is

interesting is, you know, we haven't heard from the jury at all. And sometimes you'll be a verdict and look at deliberations and think that you have an idea of what happened. And then you'll actually talked to a jury about what went on in the jury room and it was like completely different. So I was going to say something on Twitter that, you know, if anyone, any of them wanted to talk, I mean, and wanted to remain anonymous. We could, we could do that. So hopefully maybe in the next couple of weeks, some could come forward and kind of help us understand what was what was going on in there. Because like I said, you never really know until you actually talk to the jury. That's why it's like people saying, oh, I thought she was credible and that kind of thing. I always kind of remind

people, it doesn't matter what you thought of her. It matters what the jury thought of her. I just thought about this really quickly when it comes to jurors, and I know we've been on this for a second, but really quickly, how many women were on the jury? And then also there was the big headline that came out that Tori Lanes's team and Tori Lanes were in the elevator with a juror. Was that actually a big deal in the case? Was there a time where you thought, oh, this juror might be thrown out? We might have to use an alternate. Was there even talk of a mistrial at that point? How big of a deal was that? Because it seems like a big deal on the outside. Yeah, you know, and I saw all the, all the hoopla on that and just said that, you know, it'll take a lot more than like getting in an elevator with the juror. Because in the way the elevators are there, they're so packed. And there's a huge crowd waiting for one. So like if one opens up and there's a little spot, you just kind of get in. And I actually was on a little, uh, the elevator with his lawyers and Tori, I didn't even realize Tori was on until we got off because it was so packed. But there was no conversation going on. And I think the judge did talk to her a little bit. And I

about it, the juror who was in the elevator and nothing came of it. Because I think the answer would just be like, you know, did anything happen? And even if he said anything to her, it would still just be like, can you be fair? But one thing I noticed is James from the LA Times. The LA Times reporter was covering it. He tweeted he was actually in the elevator too. It was the juror and Torrey and Tori's lawyers. And then James from the LA Times, he's like, I can confirm there was nothing said. It was, we were just right in the elevator down to the first floor. So I think that was just kind of, you know, much to do about nothing. But regarding the gender makeup, it was at the end of the day, because there were a couple of jurors dismissed for reasons we don't know, probably just scheduling stuff.

But I think it was nine women and then five men. And then two of the women were alternate. So it was seven women and five men back there. And the one woman that I saw, because I had the best view of her during. closings where I was just like, okay, George, like read the room. This woman does not like you. I mean, she just looked like ready to, whoa, she was an alternate. So, you know, she never really had a say in the whole thing. But yeah, the, uh, in coming from Orange County, California, covering jury, jury trials there, any jury in L.A., I'm just struck by the diversity because it's not

just, you know, red hat ladies in a county. But it was young, uh, you know, a lot of people of color and then kind of ranging in age too. You had some young people and then some older people too. So I have one last question for you. Before I get to that question, I just want to come back to the fact that you were on the elevator with Tori Lanes, but you never saw him. He. Yeah.

And because I was, it just opened up real quick and there's like a little tiny space and his lawyers. I think I tweeted that another reporter remarked to me that Lanes's lawyers look like a couple of linebackers up there. So they're pretty. And they just, they engulfed what you're trying to say is they like, he, you couldn't see him because. Yeah, I think he was kind of in the back, like behind him or something. But, you know, it was, it's all pretty innocuous.

And they got you. You know, I get you. I get you. Just, you know, there's whatever. So last question. The lawyers have indicated that what I think a lot of people are, um, are anticipating is that there'll be an appeal here. Because Story Lane has a lot on the line. I would imagine that if Tory Lane's, when Torrey Lane's his sentence on January 27th, after the sentence comes, after he does his sentence, he is not an American citizen from what I understand.

I think he's here on the visa. So I'm assuming that there would be deportation proceedings at some point during his back and forth with California or the U.S. government. So there's a lot on the line for Tory Lane's and his future as it relates to this case that, you know, it's still up. the air because he's going to appeal. Do you think he has a strong case on appeal? And what are the prospects? Do you know anything about whether or not Tory Lane's will be deported after he serves his sentence? I'll give you those two questions right there. Yeah, I'm not sure about the deport. And I think there'll be proceedings for that. But my understanding is it wouldn't come until after he serves. So after he serves. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then the January 27th sentencing,

I'm kind of expecting that might get delayed. But appeal, yeah, I think any case like this, there will definitely be appeal. I'm kind of think what the issues are that he'll focus on. And George McDeecheon was raising an issue of rap lyrics. So there's actually a California law and there's case law saying that prosecutors can't use, you know, an artist's lyrics to try to, you know, establish anything in the case. But the thing is the prosecutors didn't do that with Tori. It's not like they ever introduced any kind of lyrics from his songs to show that he has like a propensity for violence or anything like that.

What happened was George himself actually is the one who questioned Kelsey about the lyric to her diss song against Megan. And just kind of threw it out there in his exam kind of randomly. So later on, prosecutors followed up by bringing in the entire disc track, which I think legally that would be totally okay. I mean, the judge even said when they were going over what they could talk to Tori about if he did testify that while we're not supposed to ask him about rap lyrics, if he wrote lyrics about shooting Megan or something involving the case like that, you know, about how she's lying, then all that would be fair game. So I don't think the fact that Kelsey's disc track came in would be an issue. I'm thinking one big issue could be the judge's decision to allow Kelsey's full interview to come in. because that was a pretty big pivotal thing. I'm not sure. I mean, there was no written ruling on it or anything, but I also think there's legal precedent for that. And then the big thing with all the appealable issues will be, will the court see it as enough to override a jury verdict? Because sometimes they'll see problems and agree that, yes, that shouldn't have happened, but think that it wasn't enough to be reversible error, that the jury would have still, you know, ruled for all these other ways. So it'll be interesting. So do me a favor real quick because I don't think that people understand the appeal process, Rach, if you allow me one second. If you'll, Rachel, if you'll allow me or if I'm allowed to redirect real quick.

I don't think, I don't think people understand that. So in order to appeal the verdict, what is the burden of proof or whatever? Like, what do you have to do? What, what's in the, when you say an appealable issue, explain the appeals process to people who are listening to right now who might not understand what needs to be on the table. Yeah. Yeah, anyone can file an appeal. There is, I mean, there's probably like a 90-day time frame from when the final judgment is entered. And they can pursue any number of issues for, I mean, this is when, you know, your law school education and your legal nerdery really comes into play because you have to, you have to write a brief to the appellate justices that's assigned to a panel.

There could be oral arguments set where it would be the LADA's office. arguing against you on this. And it would be basically just up to the justices aside. So while George might be involved in kind of the planning of it and kind of getting things underway, it is totally common for them to get another attorney, like somebody who specializes an appellate stuff to focus on that. So that could be something that we see. Like if for some reason, Tori does get another lawyer to do the appeal, it wouldn't be

any kind of like like sign that he's on the outs with george it would be just like a totally common thing to do and the appellate attorney would probably be working with george on it but it could be a process for sure i mean they're going to file they would file you know a brief like 20 or 30 pages kind of outlining what their legal arguments are and they would have to find you know something big something big that the judge did or some kind of error in jury instruction or something like that to really show that, you know, this kind of polluted the whole case and the jury verdict needs to be turned out. It's a tough, it's a tough standard. I mean, it's tough to do that.

But, you know, sometimes there's stuff that arises and the way the trial kind of stretched on. And, you know, there could be something that comes up. I'm wondering if Kelsey's interview coming in will be the thing that they focus on. But that will be the kind of thing that you have, like, appellate, experienced appellate lawyers who kind of understand the courts and know the history of like cases. like this, we'll kind of look at, like, what are the issues that could, like, really get the appellate court's attention here kind of thing. So it'll be fun. Do you, do you know why they did not allow Kelsey's testimony to come in at first? Why was that not admissible? Yeah, normally it's just not admissible because that was her kind of preparation interview with the DA's office. And while there's, like,

case law that allows for if she gets up on the stand and then says things like, she's, like, did kind of recant. There's a process that allows for them to take it like piecemeal by piecemeal, you know, statement by statement. But it has to be like, like you would never be able to play the whole interview, like all the niceties in the beginning, like good morning, that kind of thing. Because it's not like when Kelsey got up on the stand. She said, oh, no, it was actually a bad morning in September. And they can be like, well, Kelsey, you said it was a good morning here. You know, you would have to go through it like sentence by sentence. So the idea that like everything in that 80 minute interview would ever come in.

It would just be like such an excruciating like Q&A process between the prosecutor and the witness. So, but but sentence by sentence, like I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, but it's the whole making perfect sense. Okay. Okay. And then, but, but yeah, then just playing the whole interview from beginning to end, that that usually really doesn't happen.

But the judge ruled it was because Torrey's lawyer was implying and is questioning that prosecutors had pressured her. and when you listen to the interview, they actually don't pressure at all. Rachel, you got anything else? Well, one thing I just want to say, we were talking about the appellate process, but just because the Tories people will probably appeal this case, it doesn't mean that that will delay sentencing. He still will be sentenced.

What do you think, I think you said at one point up to 23 years, what do you think, how much time do you think that he will get? You know, I'd have to look at what the actual stamp. In federal courts, when you hear the maximum sentence, you can kind of guarantee that it's not going to be that high. It's usually, you know, somewhere a lot lower sometimes. This, I'm not quite sure. And with him getting the enhancements for causing great bodily harm and then the other gun charges, I mean, it might be, it could be pretty close to, you know, 20 years or so. But that'll be something that we'll hear a lot about in the next.

few weeks as they kind of litigate the sentencing. There'll be like a report that the probation office writes or the prosecutors will come up with their own recommendation. So I'm kind of basing it off my knowledge of the federal system, but I think it's pretty similar in state court and that there's going to be like dueling recommendations. They'll like have an interview with them. And they're really going to take into account like everything in his life too, not just the crime and what happened. But, you know, his success as an artist. I mean, all that kind of thing is is stuff that does come into play during sentencing, that a judge should be away, you know,

when a judge is deciding whether to punish you for what you did wrong, a judge can actually, can absolutely weigh everything you did right too. So, hmm. Hmm. Interesting. If you have to make a $1 million bet on the number of years, I'm asking Megan the reporter,

it's a million dollars on the number of years that Tory Lange would get just for whatever reason, what would you think? You know, the number that came to mind, and I almost hasn't to do this, because it's completely guess. I mean, I wish I could point to other cases like, you know, assault with a semiotic firearm and say sentences for that. The number that came to mind was 15 years. And, you know, I'm sure some people would be shocked by that. I think it's way too high. And maybe it'll be a lot less than that. I'm looking forward over the next few weeks to trying to trying to research like other sentences for a charge like that and see what they got. But I definitely think it's

going to be serious. And then the judge can also take into play. I mean, he's seen the entire case. He's seen the defense. You know, it'll kind of be a way for the judge to let us know, you know, what he really thinks about all this. So. Megan Cuniff. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that you are enjoying your newfound stardom. You have made us so much smarter on everything that happened during the trial. We consumed your content and we're so happy to talk to you now. Like what, just just get all the stuff. Inhale it all. Here comes the podcast. Here comes the Megan Cuniff court TV show. All of that stuff. We'll check back with you after sentencing. If that's okay, just kind of get a wrap up on that. We definitely will.

Thank you so much for joining us today on higher learning. Thank you. Thank you so much. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients?

Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next.

New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order. This episode is brought to by weather tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, let's get into something else. Acon was on the Zizi Mills show. Child to Zizi Mills. Show looked like it had a pretty high production value. I like shows, internet shows that, you know, I guess it's internet show.

It might be on television. But the show looked great. I loved learning about a new sort of personality. And Acon was talking to Zizi Mills about young African music. A young African musician. I think his name is Young Sheriff. This is a guy's name or something like that? Black Sheriff?

I'm not sure. They started talking about Africans versus Americans in terms of performance. And Acon said this. The African. Yeah. We are a little different when it comes to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not America.

Oh yeah, them niggas gonna be wobbling, pants hanging half down. Boyd as hell half to sleep because they high as hell on stage. But Africa, we wake up morning, like, look, I mean, look at these YouTube clips of all these kids from Uganda. And how do you know what I'm saying? Like these kids are performers. Like, so for us it comes natural. I was enraged. I was enraged.

You guys know how I love this type of situation. You guys know how I love the shit. how I love the shitting on of black Americans. Piss me to fuck off. I don't know why I'm supposed to feel it. No, I want you to talk about it because I'm scrolling through and I'm like, did we podcast and I miss something? You were everywhere based on your take on this.

I want, I want you to talk about it more and two. Did Acon reach out to you? No. Because this is everywhere. I don't know Aikon like that. Okay. Well, that's the first. Go ahead and give him a ding just for fun, Donnie.

What? How can I get a deal for that? No, but you were, you were, you were very upset, rightfully so. You posted on social media, wrote about it in the group chat. It got picked up by the blogs. A lot of people were agreeing with what you had to say. We've kind of touched on this topic a little bit on the podcast. But why were you so enraged?

Well, number one, I want to, I want to point. out that when I was discussing this, I was talking about a very specific phenomenon. And that phenomenon is people who come to America and assimilate with black Americans culturally in whatever way they do, rise basically in black American culture, and then opt out of it at a time when they feel like they're in a position to. to criticize. That does not have anything to do with the diaspora, the worldwide definition of black, any people who might be into or subscribing to the tenets of the pan-Africanist belief or belief system. That has to do with a specific group of people that come over here,

be on there, I'm locked up shit, you know, be on that smack that shit, be on all of that, and then turn around and say that there's something innately superior about our brothers and sisters on the continent because if we're all the same, then we're all the same. If one group is better, then let's fucking,

let's fucking have the conversation. My issue with this is that what people have to understand is whiteness isn't, whiteness isn't a race. whiteness is a group of fundamental beliefs that are connected to the understanding of white supremacy

right it's almost a religion whiteness is it's more religious than it is anything else it's a belief system that it keeps white supremacy as the deity of Western culture That's what it is. And anyone can convert to the religion. Anyone can convert out of it.

But anyone can convert into the religion of whiteness. And a lot of times are beautiful black brothers and sisters from other places. They come to America and they use black Americans as a litmus test of what they don't. want to be. And the reason why is because in America, your proximity to whiteness is probably the biggest measure or the biggest, uh, the biggest indicator, should I say, of what your success is going to be. And the furthest thing from whiteness in America is a black American.

we're the anti-whites. We are the workhorses, the mules of society. We are the people that build whiteness, not the people that take advantage of it. And what we're trying to understand and what we're trying to talk about is what it means to be black, what that word means, how we establish our own sort of worldwide network of power economically and socially. musically and culturally around that, and what that means to be linked and united. But if y'all not with us, then y'all not with us. Acon does not speak.

Does not speak. Does not speak for the diaspora when he talks. A lot of people were saying, Van, you're painting us all with a broad brush when you're talking about Acon. No, I'm talking specifically about people, whether it be music,

whether it be law, whether it be engineering, whether it be whatever, that come to America, be on a JZ shit, beyond a I love this shit, beyond a we all wearing fubu shit. And then as soon as it gets to the get down, it's like, y'all niggas are over there. Let me tell you why I wear better. That's not going to work for me.

And I think it's belittling and I think it's insulting to a lot of black Americans to act like we're making that sentiment up. This is not something that I first heard at 42, listen to ACON on That's Just the Show. This is something, there's a nigger word for black people, black Americans. There's a word for it.

There's a nigger word for it. Akata. There's a word that means black cotton picking nigger. There's a word for it. And I think the ACON situation, as much as it pissed me off, I'm only mad at ACON. I'm not mad at all Africans or all Africans

or all Caribbean or anything. Only mad at ACON. But I think it's an opportunity to discuss that division on the black American side as well. I had a lot of people reach out and talk to me about like the childhood insults that they received and everything that they went through and how hard it was for them. I understand that that's a deal. Well, let's discuss it and call that out and get into it. But don't act like it's not a thing.

If you're criticizing someone over what I'm. I said you should be criticizing Acon. Acon took it upon himself to say that niggas over here were nothing but guys with their pants hanging down that were on drugs. And that kids in Uganda are blessed by God to perform in a way that the culture that gave you Michael Jackson, James Brown, Mary J. Blige, Count Basie, fucking Janet Jackson, Jackie Wilson, Dionne Warwick, Whitney Houston, Prince, Usher, Chris Brown, Rihanna, Beyonce, J-Fucking Z. All right, Nause, Luther Vandross, Marvin Gay, The Temptations, the Supremes, Muddy Waters. I can Tina, even though Ike was a piece of shit,

that gave you this, that Louis Armstrong, Lou Wayne, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Nina Simone, Barry White, Sly in the Family Stone, the Commodores,

the system. Brownstone, SWV, Zane 95 South Oh my God Okay The Quad City

DJs Jermaine Dupree Okay we're losing We're losing it We're losing it Big Park NWA

With and without Ice Cube The fuck are we Talk what Who Win Raim Rob Bass Anita Baker

I I would love... Philist Hyman? Please, please feel for your interject. Who? Who? Who? Who? How many, like, where am I, like, where am I going? Where am I going? Do you want me to go to film?

Like, where, like, what are you, like, what are you guys what me to do? When we talk about Lena Horn? When we're talking about, uh, uh, fucking, uh, Harry Belafonte, Sammy Davis Jr. Gregory Heinz? Sam McHen brothers and Nicholas brothers? Who do you want me to talk about that we don't know how to get down? Acon, we don't know how to get down? We can't get down.

Nick, we invented getting down. Now, I'll tell you this. A lot of the reasons why we can get down is because in our soul, we are Africans. Sure. We are Africans. Okay? Not taking anything away from that beautiful continent

with beautiful people where we all come from. But don't you fuck. come over here after getting down with us for all of these years and tell us that Sam Cook can't get down. You can stop there. You know how I feel about Sam Cook. Listen, I don't have much to say with what you said, but I do think it's very important because when I first saw this, I'm like, okay, it's ACON.

You know what I mean? This is a guy who didn't want to accept blood diamonds. this is a guy who, you know, has said he was a part of an auto ring theft. And then like that wasn't true, but some of it was true. But I mean, like this is a guy who's, you know, had issues with minors, thrown people off his shoulders on stage. You know what I mean? Like this is, I looked at it.

I'm like, okay, but it's Acon. But you're right. What Acon is saying as idiotic as it is. And you might be listening to this. Our thought warriors might be listening to me like, okay, but this is so stupid, it's so far-fetched, as Van just listed off 50-plus people and could honestly close out the podcast, doing it on and on and on.

We could go into next week, naming all the people that have contributed, black Americans that have contributed, you know, to the arts and everything else when it comes to what we've done in this country. But it's not just Acon or even just Africans in general. We've had this conversation about you know, my black is better than you're black. But I think the reason too is that the reason

people dismiss it and they're like, oh, that's just ACON is because we as black people do this as black Americans to each other. You talk about whiteness and being in close proximity to it and that how for a lot of people that gives them value and makes them feel like they've accomplished certain things because they're connected to it, will we continue to get to a certain place and push each other down and talk about each other, not maybe as bad. as a con, but stereotype our own culture in certain ways. Why are you laughing at me? Why are you laughing? No, no, no, no, because you're making a good point. You're making a good point. I know what you're doing. You're making a good point. You're making a good point. Yeah. I'm, I'm, Rachel, there's some lawyer shit.

You're doing it to me right now. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. But I just think that it's worth the conversation because I saw something in one that, I don't know if it was a comment in regards to this or something that happened recently, but they said, Black people's kryptonite is. unity. And that stuck with me too. In the same sense, the Sunstar was arguing because he lost his paycheck. It stuck with me because why are we so against each other and putting each other down to build ourselves up or our culture, or my black is better than yours, rather than saying, looking at what we all do in different ways and contribute to greatness as black people, period. that's why I had this conversation to add to what you're saying is so worth having.

And how do we get to a better place and past it? And when you have somebody who does have influence, whether you hate him or like him, like Acon, talking about this, like I honestly was like, we should have ZZ Mills on this podcast because she was like, right, right, right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, do you agree with what he's saying? Or you just trying to further along the conversation? Because to me, that conversation should have stopped right there

or he should have been challenged on what he was saying if we're talking about a unity here when it comes to blackness and greatness within blackness. Right. So white supremacy pinholes black excellence. So you got a pin, okay? Black excellence is like this big, right? It's like huge.

And what white supremacy does is it takes black excellence and it puts it through a pinhole and strings it out. Okay. And so when you take something that's like that big and you put it in the pinhole, right, this is the pinhole. And you're pulling it through the pinhole so you can control it. You want to make it smaller and you want to streamline it, right?

On the outside of it, it's like getting fat. And all of these people who are getting further away from that, all of these people who are ballooning outside of this that are getting further away from it, they're getting matter and matter and matter and matter and matter because they're on the outside of acceptance from white people and there are other people who are being pulled through it right and they can see them like it's not like you get to a point and they can't they can see them sure and what they're trying to figure out is what is it about me that's keeping me over here and keeping them

over there because we're using the acceptance and the economic push of white America to validate us for what we are and who we are. And there's no other way for that to really go right now because the structures of America and really the Western world are built on white supremacy and because they are built on white supremacy and the elevation of white thought, white attitudes and white life, then we're outside of it. What we would have, have to do was we would have to build our own, right? The problem with that is the first thing that we have to do is we have to believe that we're excellent because see, the only way to like stop all the people here that are bubbling

up on the outside of white acceptance from like from this, from popping and destroying everything is for them to say, well, let's stop. Let's build our own. Let's believe that we are excellent. Let's believe that we can make money investing into each other. Let's believe that our culture is good enough. Let's believe that our way of thinking, our laughter, our dance, our economic thought, all of this. Let's believe that we're good enough. So let's reinvest into one another. But excellence isn't a belief. It's something that there is thousands of years of evidence to, but something that the world. has shut our eyes to. And so when I see something like what Acon is said, what I see is him telling us that we're not excellent, him telling us the same thing that white people tell us, him telling to us that because of our lot in life of being black Americans over here, that we're in some way defective or deficient, that there is in some way something that is inherently

makes us slaves are not as good as people that were untainted by whatever slavery he did. And if y'all want to have a conversation about the diaspora as it relates to black Americans, as it relates to Haiti, which the world has fucking purposely destroyed for for years and years after the revolution there and what we should be doing for one another, then let's have the conversation. Let's have the conversation of why certain certain countries in Africa are underperforming certain communities in America are underperforming and what we can do as a diaspora to lean on one another. But if it starts to become us against them, then niggas gonna be like, fuck it, because we're sick of that shit. And as far as what you're talking about, I will say

that we need to find pathways to unity. We need to find pathways to understanding one another. all right now look I will say if I go to your house and your cornbread is all fucked up I'm gonna think something I'm sorry I don't know if I go to your house and you know you got Franks in your gumbo I'm not I'm gonna think something you know we can have a conversation about it anyway we We can have a conversation All right Bill Cosby's back what do you think because he's returning to stand up touring on Wednesday he said that he's he's hinting at a return to touring in

2023. He was being interviewed by Scott Spears on the W-A-W-G-H-Talk radio show. He goes, yes, because there's so much fun to be had in the storytelling that I do. Years ago, maybe 10 years ago, I found it was a better way to say it after I write it. Cosby said there's a lot of fun to be had. Rachel, would you ever go see a Bill Cosby show?

Come on now. And we all know how much I loved Cliff Hoxstable, but not Bill Cosby. This man is delusional. But the sad thing is, if he really does have a show, it'll sell out because that's the kind of society that we live in. I also thought Bill Cosby was still in jail, so this was also a shot to me. I was like, oh, he's out? I totally forgot about that.

He snuck out. That must have happened during the pandemic, because I truly don't remember him getting out of jail. Do you? Bill Cosby getting out of jail? I don't remember him getting out of jail. Wait, what? Yeah, he got out of jail. They overturned the conviction.

We did an episode on it. Yeah, we talked about it. I totally forgot. I was like, what are you talking about? He's out of jail? Yeah, remember, like, the whole thing was about the DA was overzealous and they had promised Bill immunity. It all came back to, but I could have sworn there was like another case that was coming out. I think there are pending cases.

There was like something else. I thought he was back in jail. I don't know. Anyways, this is ridiculous. Bill Cosby still delusional. and it shows you that he has learned absolutely nothing. The fact that he can still think he can come out and talk to us about jello and like laugh with us

and be the good guy because he doesn't curse in his comedy routines, no, Bill, those days are over. But sadly, he's going to talk to an audience full of people and he's going to have surround him some people who will tell him something different. We know that you're not going to see a Bill Kahn Show. I'm probably not, probably. Probably.

I'm not going to see a Bill Cosby show. I'm not going to see one of them. I'm one of them. Do you, would you look differently in anybody who went to see a Bill Cosby show? And let me tell you why I see. 100% because Louis C.K. is, is, is doing his thing. A lot of people.

A lot of people looked at you away because you went to Dave Chappelle's show. So like, there's people. But I think there's level. I don't, I don't think. I'm not saying the day didn't say problematic things, but Quayludes and raping women, I think isn't on another level. For decades, decades, guys, decades. And denying it.

I know you're not saying that. I'm just saying. I would love to see. Don't ever think. I'm just saying it's for all of this stuff, people are, I would definitely go see Chappelle, you know, you didn't invite me to the Chappelle show. So, but yeah. So when I saw this, I just thought, it's just,

feared that the headline was there so much fun to be had I was like, nigga, there's not. Like, you know. J-E-L-L-O. Yeah.

George Santos. He's insane. You know what? Let's save George Santos for next week. We've given people a lot today. Let's go directly to is this fucked up. You guys, we got a couple of political topics here.

We got, uh, The representative George Santos, who's been investigated for lying about his past that we will get to after we've had a little time to digest it. Tulsa Gabbard actually tore his ass up on TV, which I'm not into being a Tulsi Gabbard fan. It was my unexpected ally of the week. Thanks, fam. For real? Yeah.

Unexpected ally of the week. Keyword is unexpected. And I mean, when I'm watching a clip, when I'm watching Morning Joe in the first clip is, a Fox News interview and it's Tulsi doing it, you know, filling in for Tucker, I'm like, what's happening here?

Yeah, it's tough. That was a good, she, she grilled him. That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one.

All right. Let's go straight to is this fucked up. Donnie, there's a new celebrity death prank that is, um, it's causing a rage on the old TikTok Chinese spy app that you guys,

love so much. Play the audio. My God. Share dead at 81. No. My share? Oh my God. Howard Stern dead at 68. What?

Zach Ephron dead at 35. No, no, no, no, no. Mom. What? Oprah Winfrey, dead at 68. No! No. Oh my God, Neil Cabuto dead at age 64.

No. Oh, my God. Did you see John Travolta passed away? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, don't say that. Now, Van. What? I know I didn't agree with you when parents were trapping their kids in bathrooms

and letting that haunted ghost scare them. I found that funny. I do not find this funny. I just don't believe in playing with death. I'm sorry. Like, how far will we go for a laugh? How far will we go? Death is not funny to me.

I would I guess I just also remember having an extreme reaction to when certain people passed away. Michael, I fainted. And you fainted when Michael Jackson died? On my grandmother's floor, she makes me reenact it all the time

when I was just in Houston. What the fuck kind of shit, y'all do? What kind of Rachel? She thinks it's funny. No, no, no. She thinks it's funny. Your grandma is like one of these TikTokers. Like, Rachel, come in here,

real hit. the traumatic moment that Michael Jackson died. What the fuck y'all got going on down there in Texas? So here's what happened. My sister had called me and said Michael Jackson had a heart attack and I was driving. I was living in with my grandmother that summer. I was driving. I was like, please don't tell me anything else.

I'm almost to grandmommies. I get to my grandmother's house. She's like, your sister's on the phone. And my sister hands me the phone. And she says, Michael Jackson died. And I dropped to my knees with the phone. And the next thing I know, my grandmother's like, like shaking me.

She's like, baby, we all got to go sometime. We all got to go. And I'm wailing not Michael, okay? So that's what, she just thinks it's funny that I fell on my knees because they were like, what the hell are you going to do when we die? I won't talk about it. Anyways, I just remember how traumatic it was like when I, Whitney, with the prince, with Michael, this is not funny, guys.

I can't keep defending y'all on social media when you play with. death and you do things like this. Just for a laugh or for reaction so you can go viral for 24 hours and then nobody remembers who you are the next day. Van Van. Van likes it. He likes this trend. I don't like it at all. I think we're, I think the digitizing of the human soul is, is becoming something that's

like, I'm serious. I think the digitizing of the human soul is going to a place that we're not going to be able to come back from because like if we're all just these digital beings that show up on screens than we're no different than video game people. So like you can kill Mario. Yeah, you can kill Mario anytime you want. You can kill a fucking Sonic anytime you want. It's like an oops and then it happens again.

I even see that in some of the violence. And they're playing like the GTA situation going around and to like play with the actual human life that's so rare that exists one time for like a joke. The energy is just so bad. I'm old and I get it. But the energy is just so bad. It's just like a dark thing. Just watching those women go through and those men go through this like injection of grief that that happened when that and then, you know, oh, it's just a joke.

It's like, I don't know. Also, I also come from a name. Oh, go ahead. I'm saying. I also come from a place where like, you know, people die very frequently and it's like it's not funny. Like a funeral is funny. It's like funny. But just also the way they were saying it, I just can't imagine being a celebrity in here and see.

this joke in my name is it's like dead at 35 like that's it was jarring just to hear y'all stop yes it's fucked up by the way so it's definitely fucked up all right mailback let's go mailback time time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them oh it's mailback time write us with your queries and we'll chime in All right A Bird on Instagram asks

Favorite topics talked about on the pod this year 2022. Mountline Oh, speaking of

they found it, Rachel. No, you didn't play audio. They just set the episode. Did you get the audio? They found it.

Don't make me, I don't, I want to stall you out. Don't like, Don't, They found the episode of you wishing harm on P-22. They found it. They said the episode.

Allegedly it's in the Jonathan Majors episode. Y'all go find it. Find it. I have a feeling that my words are going to be taken out of context. Wow. You guys, that's a challenge. It's going to be Franken bite. Kill P-22.

I want you guys to look through the episode, the Jonathan Major's episode, and see if Rachel. if Rachel did that, if Rachel killed the most beloved Mount Lion in all of the world. But yeah, my favorite thing was talking about nature, talk about animals, of course. Animal games coming back strong for the 2020. Animal games. Animal games turned out to be very fun. That is actually one of the most fun things.

I'm trying to, I don't know. I don't remember my favorite topic, but Animal Games definitely was something that needs to come back. In 2023. All right. Next one. Pat Dr. Seven on Instagram asked, what do you think is going to be the biggest trend in 2023? Jacking off? No.

Dark, good grief. I have no clue. I don't know, man. Like the biggest trend of 2023. I don't know, man. I'm so tired. You know, by way, this is the last mailback question. We only do two mailbacks today.

Okay. Don't do that one. Don't do that one, Don't do another one. All right, skip one. Mommy Mo 216 asks, this is a big one, I think. If I gave you the opportunity to name my child, what's the first name you spit out and why? Dakota Sky.

Hmm. Yeah. Wait, I feel like I have another one. Do you have one? Nigelado. Nigelado Jackson League. Why do I even try? Why do I even try?

I'm telling you right now, Mommy Moe, if you name your kid, Nigolato, like, that's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, gilato. Nigelato, Nickalado, Nickalado, Scott, Nigelado Jackson Lee. It sounds like an ice cream flavor. right now I'll give mommy moe 10,000 if they name the kid Nigelado that's so not enough why the 10,000 10,000 is not enough that's so bullshit they could take the you know the bets off they could take the 10,000 and then they could just name the kid that and then turn around and change the name right away before the kid you never heard of why don't you name why don't you name your child

you know what you know what I would name But I don't know what I would name a kid. I don't think I'm not having any kids. You know what I would name a kid. I would name a kid something historical. Like, I don't know, something to really, really piss the white people off. Like, I don't know, fucking shockamanza. That's not going to piss them off.

I guess nothing does, right? I don't know about names. Like, your name is Rachel. Like, why is your name Rachel? It's biblical. is from the Bible. It is from the Bible. That's why my mom wanted,

my mom wanted one of her children to have a biblical name. That was me. Wasn't Rachel, though? Wasn't Rachel like the, the one that he didn't want? Actually, that was Leah. Rachel is the one he waited

seven years for. She had Joseph and Jacob. Well, Jacob's the husband. She had Joseph and I can't think of the other one saying. So Jacob's a husband. Jacob's the husband, but Rachel was, because he, He was married already to Sarah.

He wanted. No. God, no. Who is he married? No, no. He was married. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay.

So Jacob was married to, because he was married to like an older lady. Okay. Who he didn't think could have kids anymore. Am I tripping? Okay. Okay. That's the same lineage, but you've gone down too far. There's Sarah and Abraham.

Sarah and Abraham. Yeah. And Sarah couldn't have children until she was 99. So Abraham slept. She had the, the handmae. Yeah. That's the right for it. Forgive me all.

She had, um, Hagar, I think was her name. Haggar. And they had Ishmael. Ishmael. Okay. So Jacob was with Rachel. And then there was Abraham and Sarah had Isaac. And then Isaac, I can't remember Isaac's wife's name, but they had Esau and Jacob.

Remember Jacob stole the inheritance because he put the hair. He saw Isaac. Okay. So then Jacob wanted Rachel. She was the youngest. He was like, no, you have to marry my oldest Leah first. And so he was like with Leah for like seven years or something. And then he married Rachel. He wanted Rachel.

So how old was Rachel? Because that seems problematic. I don't know. I got to come. I got to come harder with mailbag. I'm not going to lie. You know what I mean? We've had some great mailbag questions.

Stop. Yeah. I expect to ally of a week. Tulsi Gabb. Mine was Tulsi Gabb. Yeah, my was Tulsi Gabbard. Yes. I'll go with Tulsi Gabbard too.

It's a good one. That's a really good one. You guys go listen to Tulsi Gabbard, talk to George Santos. We're actually working on getting George Santos on the podcast so he can rip his ass. Oh, he loves the spotlight. He'll love it. Listen, y'all, yeah, that should be the homework, right? Let's start a signing homework at times.

Y'all should go. If you haven't listened to it already, go listen to the interview with Tulsi Gabbin. She's filling in for Tucker on his show, Fox News. Go listen to it in preparation for when we talk about it on the pod. You guys, we'll be back on the other side of the new year. Happy New Year to all of you. More big guests coming.

More big guests coming. More life coming. More higher learning coming. Take your thin caps off. Do not stop opening your mind. We out. I'm sorry. That's not what high.

goes. Rachel has to say I'm Van Lytton. I don't know what the fuck. I gave all my fucking thoughts earlier in the podcast. I went on too many rants. I'm Ben Lathan. I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay.

Bye guys. Happy new year. Last podcast in the year.