Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Mastery of ‘Cowboy Carter’ and the Complexity of the Black Experience

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay give their impression of Beyoncé’s new album, ‘Cowboy Carter’ (08:54), the first episode of Jerrod Carmichael’s reality show, and the awkward scene with Tyler the Creator (25:51). Then, they discuss the internet’s reaction to our conversation with Justin Sylvester last week (35:14) and dive into the complexities and different cultures of the Black experience (1:00:47). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producer: Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? High Learning is on. It is I Van Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel, you sick? I'm slightly under the weather. Look, look, look, look, look.

Before you say, you hear of that sounds? Yeah. It is this is not, now I'm actually becoming concerned, Rachel. Okay, okay. And you should be. I'll probably go to the doctor today. I didn't even have time to fix my hair. I took my, I took my Bob out. This is how we're rolling today, okay? Listen, I am getting used to skiing. So every time I come back from a ski trip, this is what happens. Because of the altitude, I guess, the cold, the change in the climate, every time I come back,

it's some kind of like nasal drip. It settles in my chest. This time might be a little worse than the times before. But I'm done. I'm done. Don't be concerned. Don't be concerned. You're sick a lot, man.

I'm just to be honest with you. You're sick like all the time. Is it the pork? No. No. I mean, listen. I've been sick a lot this year. I've been sick more.

I've been sick more this year than I have, I don't even know. Like, every other week it's something, truly. You know, stress is a real thing. You know what we're going to do? It is. It's partly it's the stress. You know what we're going to do? We're going to bring on, we need to talk health. We do. I'm serious. We're going to bring somebody on here because, you know, you are, it is a point. where it's too much, you start to ask yourself,

is Rachel's immune system functioning at the level that it should be? I think that's a fair question to ask. It really isn't. It's a fair question. But like, everything has been thrown off for me this year. I've lost at least 10 pounds. My eating habits are all over the place. You know, I'm always traveling.

I'm, you know, trying new things, which I'm not used to these climates. So it's like a combination of things. I went and had an IV yesterday, you know, little Ivy people that come to you to try to help. And I hate those. Try to boost my immune system. I'm all out of whack. I know it. Try, admit it.

You just can't stop the feeling inside. You know it. I can see it in your eyes. You want me smooth as a month's so undiscovered. Is that what you were listening to before? We are under a Sierra. We under-race Sierra. Yeah, we do.

I don't think so. I think people appreciate her for exactly the talent that she is. We, no. Sierra's early catalog to me is not being, I went back. So I've been, so Cowboy Carter, we're going to talk about it. You know, Cowboy Carter made me ask questions. Am I listening to too much male music? You know?

If I look at my title right now Because Cowboy Carter made me feel so amazing And you know If I look at my title right now Look at these records that I'm listening to Scarface push it to the limit A track by Paul Enigman

Stop being greedy DMX Just Blaze Down for my niggas Track by C murder magic and snoop dog Fuck up some commas Future Future How great

Jay Electronica Big Boss Rabbit by the toxic Freddie Gibbs himself. And then at the bottom of this, what was I made for, Billy Island? And then like the... What kind of move were you in? How are you going to switching up from Freddie Gibbs to...

No, it isn't a beat. It won an Oscar. Rightfully so. It is so beautiful. But anytime I hear somebody playing it, that's not just a song you just say, huh, I really want to hear Billy Isles today. Like, you got to be feeling something.

to play that song. You okay? No, it's a great song. Are you okay? I'm good. Cowboy Carter, DMX, the game. And then you have, we don't trust you, future in Metro, Metro, movement. I just need to listen to more. So I listen to Cowboy Carter,

and then I start, I'll listen to a whole week. Going back listening to the women that I like to listen to. I listen to some Shadeh, and I got to Sierra, and I'm like, early on Sierra, People are hating on the fact that Sierra had it. She had it. Nobody was.

No, they were not. They hated it off. 20 years ago, because that's what she popped off, 20 years ago, when she came on the scene, everybody was in the Sierra. We wanted to dance like her. We wanted to dress like her. Sierra was, like, had it. Wait, can I reach you off my list and just show you how different it is of what I've been listening to? This is what we're going to start doing this.

What were we listening to this weekend? Rachel, listen to us right now. Go ahead. Tell us. Okay. I'm here. Fantasia from the color purple. Like that, future Metro Roomm and Kendron.

Cowboy Carter. My idols lied to me. Ayanna Lee. I think that's how you say it. Or Ayanalee. 112. Oh, man. This song,

her voice is insane. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Don't play. Please. Please don't. I don't want to hear it. I don't, God.

It's so rude. Okay, anyways, one 12, 112, Part three, Let's ride. Montel Jordan. Montel Jordan.

Let's ride, Watson Jordan's so shaggy. Master of me. Ain't no doubt it. Your love is bout about it, and I'm so excited. Girl, I want to ride it. That shit went to number two.

Baby is more than incredible. It was the thing. 55146 went nothing but a G strange. 55146. What the fuck I'm talking about Montel. Her little thick ass. Montel was loving. That's a good one.

That's a classic. Montel was loving her little thick ass. Her little thick ass. Five-five 146. Montel Jordan was loving. her little thick ass. Excuse me. I'm glad I took you back. You're going to add that to your playlist. Adora Prince. Somebody

to love, Queen. Don't judge me. Vultures won. The album. Wow. Voltures one. Vultures won. It's good music made by weird on niggas, but it's good music. It's good music. Not time. And then I was listening to an artist playlist.

Tamia, Fantasia, Garth Brooks, Adele, Mariah Carey. That's enough. You've named too many. And rake it up. Yo, Goddy. That's my list. Okay. I'm sorry, man.

I didn't realize I had a limit. I'm done. Because honestly, honestly, your list is some bullshit. You know, Van, I wouldn't expect you to say anything less. Even though you took a detour on one of the songs it was on my list. That is true. Rachel, I think us talking about what we listen to this weekend is good. But I'm going to put the thought words on something.

Okay. I want the thought warriors to give us different home remedies and different things to boost Rachel's immune system. Sawa Sop. He's still on it. You need some Sour sap? Sour sap tea. You ever drink the sour sap? No.

I'm going to drink that salsap tea. Aliveira, my mom used to make, my mom used to go get the aloeira plant. Oh, man. Alivara. Yes, yes, my grandmother. I don't even know if that shit works. But my mom had so many different ideas of stuff that worked. Who knows if they really worked.

My granny used to do it. It's time to get into the goddamn show. Right. We're talking about music because we were both listening to Cal Boy Carter this weekend. Yeah. On the other side of this break. B'anthi. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms,

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. All right. Cobbord Carter dropped. Rachel give it to me. Oh, you want my. opinion. Of course. That's what you want me to do. That's the only opinion on this podcast that matters. Stop. Okay. I know people expect me to come in full hater mode because for some reason,

people think I really dislike Beyonce's music, which I'm actually a big fan of her music. It's always the fandom that takes it to another level that I get annoyed by. It's the same thing with Swifties. It just gets out of control, right? They treat these people like their gods. What is this preamble? Are you going to get to what you thought about Cowboy, Carter or do we have to do a whole referendum? Do we need a family meeting? Because this is the second time that you have cut me off when I'm talking. The king of long rants.

And all I am is setting up what I'm about to say. Take your own advice, man. I mean, this impatient. You're so impatient on this Monday morning anyways. So when I first listened to this album, Rachel's coughing, guys. Rachel has had a coughing fit right now. You guys, we need help.

Leave this in. Rachel just needed it because she went on the coughing. No, don't do it. Rachel, we need help over here, y'all. Somebody has to help us. Okay, we need Andrew Huberman, Huberman Lab. We need my man. I follow this black doctor.

He's fantastic. I want to shout him out. We need somebody on the podcast, man. Rachel, God bless my sister, man. What the hell's going on? Rachel over there, hacking her lungs up. Rachel, you okay? Go for it, Rachel.

You got it. Go ahead. We believe in you. So I listen to Cowboy Carter. Wake up Saturday morning and listen to it. I'm going on a hike with By Tretel. And I get to like the first 11 songs. And I was listening to it to just like the song.

I guess from a commercial standpoint. And immediately off the top, I like the first song. I like bodyguard and I like spaghetti. I think that's what it's called. That's as far as I get to. But I'm kind of like, oh, that's okay.

Like I'm not feeling it because in my mind, I'm thinking this is a little all over the place. It felt chaotic. Similar to how I felt about Renaissance. It was like every time I was listening to a song, it had five different parts in it. I talk to Tracy. And Tracy had me look at it through a completely different lens.

And so I pressed play again. Guys, I love it. I am so into Cowboy Carter. I looked at it. I didn't take it just for what it was. I listened to, I read an article about it. I listened to what she was doing with the music. And rather than looking at it from a commercial viewpoint,

I started looking at the artistry of it and what she was doing with the sounds, what she was doing with the different genres. I really like this album. I have to say, it's really good on so many different levels. I have a lot of favorites on this. Your thoughts? So I like this album so much that makes me re-contextualized Beyonce. Okay.

So I'll be honest with you. Okay. So if we look at Beyonce's career, dangerously in love, B-Day, I am Sasha. Now, all of these albums are good for me. People like I Am Sasha Fier's. I like Sweet Dreams. I like single ladies. A lot of records on here that are good.

Four was not my favorite. I liked four. People liked it, right? I think right now, Beyonce is on as is on. As impressive of four album run, as anyone in music has ever had. When you look at Beyonce in 2013, self-titled surprise drop album,

Lemonade, Renaissance, Cowboy Carter, will leave the Carter's album. But when you look at all of these solo albums, from Beyonce to Lemonade to Renaissance to Cowell Carter, I think it's as impressive a four-album run as I've ever seen from anyone. And I'll tell you why, two reasons. Number one, the musical evolution

that happens throughout these four albums. Beyonce goes from being an artist that teeters on this very distinct pop sensibility to evolving into an incredibly introspective, personal, genre-bending master of cultural sensibility that you don't typically see with somebody that's in the different. middle of their career to me. Beyonce, the album, she kind of grew up in a way. It was a more overtly sexual side of her, maybe more of a raw, realer side.

Lemonade is like an album that she like copes basically with. There's music in between these two, these two albums. You think Lemonade, 2016 and then Renaissance 2022, there's music in between there. obviously she gives us some music with Jay-Z. She gives us some soundtrack stuff.

She's doing some other stuff, of course. So it's not quite the break that it seems. But by the time she's come back, her sound is evolved. It's different. It's cutting edge. It's pushing boundaries. It's an evolution that we don't typically see. And then with Cowboy Carter, she's able to take something old and make it new.

Beyonce has become a master of expressing herself musically. I'm not talking about the total package because a lot of times when we talk about people who are singers and dancers and entertainers, we talk about the total package from them. We talk about, okay, they are great musicians, but they're also fantastic entertainers. So the total package means that they're not quite,

they don't have to quite be the musicians that some of their contemporaries are. I think as dope as Beyonce is on stage, the music that she's putting out right now is as good as anything that I've heard. she's putting out like ridiculously serious, timely, meaningful music. Like meaningful music. And it's really impressive to see how she's found herself as her career is going on.

Like Cabo Carter knocked my goddamn socks off. My thoughts. My knock my socks off is what it did. That goddamn Cobbord. Bodyguard is one of the best songs I've ever heard. I love it. One of the best songs you've ever heard. I love the song.

It was love at first sight. Let me tell you how good the bodyguard song is to me. I have ADD. So if I like a song too much, it'll stop me from listening to the rest of the album. Interesting. So if I, I tell you this, how to make an album for somebody with ADD,

I'll tell you right now. If I like your, if you put a banger, as track fucking four on your shit, it takes me, after that, it'll take me a week, a week and a half to work through the rest of your album. Unless I force myself.

Because if you give me a banger on track four, I'll start listening to that bitch over and over and over again. Then I'll get scared because I'll be scared that I won't like the rest of the album as much. So I'll just stop. Do you know how many albums with songs

that I really loved that I haven't heard the full thing because I don't want to listen to the rest of it for fear that the rest of it won't be able to meet the favorite record that I have. Is there a particular reason why it's track four? I'm just saying it's not track four all the time. Okay.

If you can understand what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it sometimes it happens early. God damn it, zombie woman. Are you going to be able to make it through the podcast? I'm fine. I only need an hour. and a half. I got you, Rich.

I really am concerned, though. You probably should be. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm just saying, look, to me, no notes. I thought the album itself was very important, the way that it was looking at the history of black people in country music. I think the breaks that she gave to black people in country music, Tanner Adele, someone who I've come to love.

I only learned about her after people. See, people talked about Beyonce and how she was going to take up space in country. I feel like she's launching a black country movement that was already there, but people were paying attention to. Well, yes, I definitely think that some of that is true. Like, you mentioned some of the artists and she put us on. Is it Shibusi? Is that how you say his name? He's fantastic.

He's on like four or five songs. Anyways, I do. But it's not a country album. And I think it's important is to show our roots across multiple genres and the way that she layers those different genres

with this album. I mean, we talked about her statement that she put out right before she was about to release Cowboy Carter and it was that reminding people don't listen to this

which is a little tricky because we got Texas Hold'em as 16 carriages so you thought oh, that's what the rest of the album is going to be about, but it's not. It's much bigger than that. And it's almost as if

Beyonce created her, own genre by layering all these different genres together to show that music is so much more than limiting an artist just to one particular thing. I think that's kind of the rundown that I was getting. And when I looked at it in that way, I was like, this is a really beautiful piece of work. I'm looking at it beyond each single. I'm looking at it as a whole. And it really is beautiful. It is. She's also did a good job

with this and the last album with selecting the shittiest singles on the album to release their singles. Driving our expectation of the project way down and then the moment that the shit pops on because what was the one she came out with before?

It was oh my gosh, if you had not said that. You can't break my soul. Okay. Decent song, but that was not the type of song. that you would have heard and then been like, oh my God, this is about to be some fucking fire.

And when 16 carriages in Texas hold them drop, people were like, yeah, all right. You know what I mean? And then everybody was thinking, hey, this shit might suck. And it's her best work to me. I mean, when you hear the first song

American Requiem, she's establishing what the rest of the album is going to be. And you can hear the layering of the genres in that first album, I loved it. I loved it, loves it. And immediately I was like, not immediately, but I was like, okay, like this is a different sound than I thought I was going to get.

I can't, like, speak highly about it enough. So are you going to the Cowboy Carter tour? No, I don't do that type of shit. Yeah, we don't. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it looks at gifts to tickets. No, it doesn't matter. I'm not going, there's too many people.

I don't go to big concerts like that. I don't like concerts. We've talked about. Oh, I love concerts. I don't like concerts. I don't understand even the purpose of a concert. I don't understand the purpose of a lot of music. Van, now come on.

I'm being for real. What do you mean? You don't understand the purpose of a concert. The purpose of a concert, like, why? Why would you go? Because you can appreciate and absorb the music in a completely different way. See, to me, when I see somebody live, I actually like them so much more because I can appreciate them as an artist.

It's not something that was produced and packaged and edited together on an album. It's raw. It's real. It's interactive. That is why I like a concert. So this is my thing. I like to go to live sporting events sometimes. But the live sporting event is the same product that you're getting.

getting when you watch it on TV just closer up. You see things better. A concert is an inferior product. Whoa. It is. No. Van, what's the best concerts you've ever been to?

I can't remember. I can't remember one that I was like, if you ever, if you've ever seen prints in a concert, you would never say that. It is not an inferior. you if you've ever seen Prince because he gives you so much more.

I'd rather listen to Prince in my house. It's because you haven't been. I have had the pleasure of seeing him and it's next level. Prince. Yeah, I would say he's the best concert I've ever been to in my life. There you go. I think sometimes watching somebody perform,

if it's intimate and it's like an acoustic guitar, cool, but it's loud in there. It's people going crazy. I can't hear. You know what I mean? It's like being at a club, but you can't dance with nobody. And you got to walk far for the drinks. You know, it's kind of odd, right?

I don't like that type of shit. I don't like that type of shit. That's fine. A lot of people, people are jumping around. People are yelling at the best parts of the song that you want to hear. Like, it's, it's, I mean, I guess the Washington Throne Tour was pretty fun because they did, they did, they did niggers in Paris like 15 times and it got to be like super funny

after they did it like the sixth time or something I guess that was kind of cool but then you got to drive back to the crib and it's like what time we're going to leave and like how we don't realize you complain so much I don't like this type of even I don't like when I go to a last sporting event

I want there I want it to be a blowout I want the Lagos to be up 15. So you can leave early? So I can leave. If I have to stay to the last possession, I'm fucking pissed. Because now it's just, it's worth, it's not to me, it's a hassle. That's all I'm saying. Okay.

There's certain experiences that go to sleep. There are other unpleasant parts, but it's worth it to have the moment, right? I could say that about a sporting event, going to a playoff game. Definitely go into a concert. You just know you're going to have to fight through crowds. You know you're going to sit in traffic for parking. I would even say that for traveling overseas. You know it's a hassle for the airport.

You wait for the luggage. You have to have a connecting flight. But when you get there, it's all worth it. And sometimes you just got away. Yeah. Anyway, we can move on because people are just going to be like, oh, van doesn't know what's good. He doesn't know how to fucking go to a concert.

You just haven't been any really great concerts is what it sounds like. But it's okay. I don't like it. I don't like a lot. I don't understand the point. So I'm here at the hotel. When I go down there to the pool, do you know what makes me not stay at the pool?

People. They got music playing. I don't want to hear no music. I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear live music. I want to hear music when I want to hear. Okay, so you're literally going to WrestleMania this week. Is that the attitudes you're taking into WrestleMania?

Whoa. No, I'm not. I'm going to enjoy myself at WrestleMania, but WrestleMania is going to be a lot. I'm just letting you know. It's going to be a lot of bullshit. All right.

Let's move on. Did you watch the Gerard Carmackle show? Yeah, I watched the first episode. What a uniquely fascinating show? Not for you. Talk to me. The first episode didn't pop like I wanted it to.

I don't know what I was expecting. It just, I'm going to continue watching it because I want to support him and I like him. I don't know what I was expecting. I just was a little bored. I mean, there was obviously a moment that really got my attention, which we're going to talk about. But other than that, it just kind of felt the word that keeps coming to my mind is chaotic. But it wasn't chaotic. It wasn't that extreme.

it just was disjointed. Interesting. I don't know why. That's how I felt watching the first episode. And it's reality TV, but it's also like a documentary style. So I don't know. I just, I got to watch a second episode.

Hmm. I feel you. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was revelatory almost. Like it was, I don't know, so brutally honest that it was jarring in some ways. It was kind of like, you know, Gerard Carmichael, a little whore.

A little slut muffin. You know, a little, little slut boy out there getting it. And he was just very unafraid. That, what? That didn't shock me. Yeah. He was very unafraid to be. a version of him that we just have not seen yet.

And I thought that was very fascinating. Of course, the part of it that's going viral, powerful as well, powerful as well, the conversations that he would have with his friends around his mom. I just think that what he's doing, I think it actually really matters for a lot of people that are following in his journey to his ultimate self-discovery and self-determination.

I thought the part with Tyler was excruciating, which is what we're going to talk about right now and do a little post more on the conversation we had on the last podcast. But if you guys did not see the first episode, there was a part where Gerard Carmichael and Tyler, the creator, two guys have been friends for a very long time, I think five, six years, maybe longer. Drought had fallen in love with Tyler, the creator. And he had told him back in the day that he loved him.

And Tyler, creator, responded, stupid bitch. And I guess he wanted to talk to him about how that unrequited love or not even the unrequited love, but Tyler's failure to meet the moment. in a way that was nourishing to draw it, how that made him feel. And Tyler basically just kind of doubled down on it. It wasn't a serious moment for him. He didn't. He was as Tyler the Creator in the moment as you would have thought that he would have been.

Did you see it? I did see it. I'm not going to defend Tyler the Creator at all. He was there to defend. I'm not. I just, I'm about to say something. He didn't do anything wrong. I don't think so either. But there were a lot of people that I saw who were really bothered by his response.

And so I see it in two different ways, right? I see that they have a friendship. They were real friends. So Tyler, the creator, should have given him a better response out of respect for their friendship. Just as a friend, right? I understand you might be uncomfortable and maybe your initial response might be wild,

but you work through that. and you kind of explain where you're coming from because your friend just opened himself up in a way that is scary for any individual and then you respond in that way. On the other hand, this is more in response to it playing out on camera. I don't know how I would feel about having this conversation on camera

and filmed. I don't know how if I'm, if I'm Tyler, you're bucking your eyes in me. If I'm Tyler having this conversation coming from you. I think this is a very, granted, it's a documentary about Girard's life. But if I'm your friend, I don't know that this is the conversation. If you know that Tyler responded a certain way and not saying that that was okay. But then then have that conversation on camera publicly, you could tell that your friend was uncomfortable having

the conversation. I just don't know if I agreed with doing this on camera in this way. I think he set him up to, do you think he set him up to look bad? I don't think he set him up to look bad, but I thought it was a little unfair unless he said, hey, Tyler, we're going to talk about that conversation that we had via text that was private. I'm going to talk about it on camera. If he prefaced it before, okay, then Tyler knew what he was walking into. But to have that conversation and expect Tyler to respond in the, a different way with cameras, I thought Gerard was setting himself up for failure. I don't know why he would have expected more from him in that moment.

My understanding was that he told him that he was going to interview him for his new show, but did not necessarily tell him what they would be discussing. And I don't think that's right. And if I'm, if, if Tyler responded that way in private, why would he be different in public? I'm not saying it's okay. Yeah. I'm not saying it's okay, but Gerard to me set himself up for failure for a very similar response that he got the first time. Well, I think, I mean, he said, I don't really look at you like that.

That's like bro. That's like a brother. So that's the response. There can be no other response if that's the way that you feel. I think if you were looking for him to be a little bit more cognizant of how hard it was for you to say that. I can understand that, but, you know, some people are who they are. Also, you have to remember that some people's defense mechanism for feeling intensely deep feelings is to play them off, is to act like they're not happening, is to fart in a room with the cameraman and then leave the cameraman in there. It's to start performing.

It's to take a step back away from the reality and then start performing, which is exactly what Tyler the creator did. he started performing like right away. He went into performance mode because he was uncomfortable with the feelings that his friend was feeling right there that his responsibility.

That's how some people deal with stuff. You know, people are different. Everybody has, people looking at him like he's fucking gargamel or whatever. It's not, you know, it's not what it was. It's an odd situation to be put into. especially when something like that is unrequited.

Like, what do you really want? You know? But I thought the show was interesting. I think it's going to get interesting for me. I just wasn't as a huge fan of the first episode. But this was interesting to me. I would be mad at my friend if my friend did that to me on camera, unannounced. Oh, for real?

You would? You pissed off. Yeah. Well, I just. Especially if it feels a lady. Let's think about one of your friends that we could turn games. for you. Let's see. Well, no. I don't want to like make a lie in the conversation.

I don't want to make light of the conversation because it was real, they were real feelings for Gerard. Gerard wanted more out of that situation. Gerard wanted more out of that situation. Katie. Okay, Katie. Katie comes to you and she goes, Rachel, I love you.

On camera. On camera. Part of the playbook. We're doing the episode of higher learning presents the playbook and then Katie's there the thing she goes really Rachel I want to take a page out of the playbook

you'll be mad I would be mad that she said that to me like that in public like just have if you really want it to be meaningful do it in private well he did do it in private and then they had to have the conversation

and then he responded that way so doing it again and expecting a different response and now it's public to mean you set yourself up. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming.

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Speaking of this, we had a conversation on higher learning with Justin Sylvester that the trailer for the Gerard Carmackel show actually spurred. Like it, or it sparked, shall I say, it sparked the conversation. The conversation was around interracial relationships in prominent black games. Amen. I posted a clip of what Justin had to say, just part of what Justin had to say on Twitter. And as we sit here today, we're almost to one million impressions and different topics, responses, should I say, surrounding this clip. Did you say 100 million? No, I said 1 million. Not 100 million.

I was like, what? If it was 100 million, we would do a whole separate podcast just about that every single week we would talk about. So yes. And there was a controversy. There were a lot of black gaming who were nonplussed by a specific answer to a question that Justin had given us when he was talking about some of the reasons why he decide to start dating white guys or why other people date white guys when they leave their hometowns or when he got to West Hollywood, he personalized it

and there was a lot of discussion over it. Some people were pretty harsh on Justin. I would encourage anyone that's listening to this now because of the clip to please, please, and I blame myself for not posting a link to it, I've been traveling, but please, please listen to the entirety of the conversation that we had with Justin, which I thought was fantastic and vulnerable. And I learned a lot from it. Rachel, you wanted to say something specifically.

Well, yes. You know, if you listen to the entire interview when we're talking about it, we say we've talked a lot about things that impact the queer community. But we really haven't, for the most part, have had representation on the podcast. podcast to speak to it. Any sensitive topic is hard for somebody to come on and talk about it, specifically when it is personal to them. And it really was upsetting to me. Yes, probably because he's my friend, but also just for somebody to come on and completely be open and honest, from their perspective, repeatedly through that interview, Justin says, I'm only speaking about me. This is, I'm telling my story.

I'm not speaking on behalf. I'm not a representative of every black gay man. I'm speaking to my own experience and what I've been through and why I have made certain decisions. And I thought that was very brave and courageous. And you got a lot from the conversation I did. And I do want to say that I heard from a lot of thought warriors who actually thought it was an amazing interview and it really opened their eyes to things.

But the other, you know, when you put stuff out there, there's always going to to be another side of it. And just I guess the response of people being so negative, so quick to attack is really disappointing when we were really trying to have a better understanding of something that we're seeing. Are we interpreting this right? And really trying to have a conversation that I feel like you don't really see in the black community. And the response that we're getting kind of highlights why. We don't really, why people aren't having these conversations or why they might be afraid to get on the mic and do it. And I just think that if you're going to take the opportunity to write an entire paragraph

on social media, then you need to take the moment to listen to the entire interview before you conclude whatever you feel about what Justin or somebody in general has to say. Yeah. Last thing I'll say is for people that were wondering why we're even curious about this in the first place, I can answer that question for myself is I am curious about people who I share my community with.

I am not a part of the black gay community, but I'm a part of the black community and black gay men and women are my brothers and sisters. So anything that might affect their lives when it comes down to racial politics is my concern. It's my concern.

concern about the way anti-blackness or about the way any identity politics would show up in any group of black people anywhere. Right. So asking these questions that have to do with these issues that are really deep and really hard to litigate without talking to people, it's difficult and it's something that we shouldn't be doing on our own. But yeah, I care about the lives of black gay men. I care about whether or not they have love. I care about whether or not they're finding love. I care about how easily that love is accessible to them. I care about how they're being represented inside of our community, outside of our community.

I care about their lives. I care about them. So when I saw that, I was just like, huh, that's an interesting thing. There's nothing about, I don't look at our communities as not being the same, which is another reason why I'll kick somebody in the ass behind y'all because we are the same. I'm not going to speak for you, but having a platform allows me the opportunity to let brothers and sisters speak for themselves. Yeah. And I'm not, we're not perfect at that.

We're definitely not. You know what I mean? Certainly not. But we try. Maybe we'll have that conversation again. And maybe we'll have that conversation with somebody else in a different way. It won't be to minimize or have a rebuttal to anything that Justin said. Because I believe Justin Sylvester to be an awesome person, a very brave person to share his story with us.

It's just a dope motherfucker overall. So I'm very grateful and pleased that he came on a conversation that happened and was so open and honest. But if there are things that are deeper that we need to discuss, I had conversations with some people that I knew over the clip for hours on Saturday night, hours, hours, some of my black gay friends on Saturday night. And they were talking about so many things that the conversation started about that, but then it moved on to a way I see myself. It moved on to the way like we interpret love as black gay man and black heteroman and about how all of these relationships and emotional responsibilities end up presenting themselves later in life. It was very nourishing and very great. Shout out to my man DeRay. Very nourishing, very great, very great conversation brought me closer to him.

So to me, we can't talk about this stuff enough. And I'm sorry that people didn't, some people didn't, in my opinion, approach Justin with enough care. That's all I would say. All right, let's take a little break. Donald Trump doesn't give a fuck. I don't think that there's any person in America right now that's less accountable for anything than Donald Trump. Donald Trump operates with zero accountability. Sure.

Two different posts. He launched an attack. The judge's daughter. The judge overseeing his New York hushmoney trial. He shared a news story with photos of this lady on his truth social network. I'm not going to name her because that to me adds to the whole. thing. But Donald Trump reposted a story that's talking about the daughter of the judge, which some people would say compromises the safety of this woman. I personally believe that Donald Trump

knows what he is doing and is using these intimidation tactics to make people back off of him. Rachel, do you agree? Yeah. You said using the intimidation tactics to what? To make people back off of him. Oh, oh, absolutely. You know, I am a judge's daughter. And one of the things that I used to really be afraid of, there were times when we were growing up where my dad might have a particular case and whatever was happening on with that case, it was so intense that the U.S. Marshals would have to sit in front of our house and guard it.

There were sometimes where there were cameras that had to be set up in the backyard in the front yard. I remember one time I was going to college and we had to be escorted to to Austin because of whatever it was. And I think my dad tried to protect me from that as much as he could, but sometimes you couldn't when you see U.S. Marshalls parks in front of your house. That's terrifying because you don't know what the threat is. You don't know how serious the person is. You just know it's real. This is triggering to me when I see Donald Trump doing this and it's on a much grander scale because, one, it's Donald Trump. One, he has so. many wild, cultish people that follow him.

And we've seen them act on his command before. And they haven't slowed down. And who even knows what they're planning in private? So the fact that he is using his platform to once again highlight someone, basically threaten them and put their life or other people's lives in danger is so troubling. and just adds to a list of troubling things that he's doing, all in the name of getting people to back off from, you know, moving forward on a trial with him,

all to incite his very dangerous base. And yeah, it's just, it's, it's troubling. So, you know, looking at this and then also Donald Trump, shared a post that show one of these Trump mobiles going down the street

with right right with all the the flags on it which is fine you want to put Trump flags

in your car put Trump flags in your car it's fine and then on the back of the car there was a hogtied Joe Biden

on there right I'm wondering here I mean obviously moving off this. I'm not, forget about any moral judgments that I would make. This is what I would say. There seems to be this in increasing need for people who support Trump to say,

hey, we're not crazy, violent, insurrectionists. We're not lunatics. We're not any of that. We're just people that look at America in a different way. Well, I mean, you're lying. Yeah, you are. It's just not true. Yeah.

If you're a Trump supporter right now, you don't mind political violence. You don't mind white nationalism. You don't mind intimidation of judges, intimidation of judges' family. You don't mind threats. You don't mind coercion. You don't mind. anti-democratic, you don't mind any of that. You don't.

Now, maybe if you're a goddamn huge Democrat, you're as left as you can be, maybe you're at the core of it, all of those same things are happening with the people that you've empowered, right? Politics is a dirty game. But the question is, if you knew, how much would you care? I guess that's the question with all of this stuff, right?

Yeah. I can't be mad at you for being ignorant. But if you know something, how much do you care? Donald Trump wants a very specific America. He wants an America molded in his image. He wants America not molded by his policy. It's not what he wants. He wants an America molded in his image.

maybe it's always been that way. Yeah. But he doesn't mind the hawk time of political opponents. He doesn't mind people assaulting the Capitol. He doesn't mind putting the picture of the judge's daughter up there so that people intimidate her. He's never had any rules. He's never had to follow any rules. He's never, decorum has never been an essential part of his life.

In a lot of ways, Donald Trump has never had to be an American citizen. It's never had to be someone that, lived by any societal code or conduct. So his unrueliness is a function of his power and access. And it knows no bounds. It knows no end. So as much as I would love to both ways and have a political conversation with people who I disagree with,

I think that a lot of you are liars and fuck-offs. I'm sick of listening to your horseshit bullshit. You don't like the guy because of any policies. You don't like the guy because of any different type of situation that you feel like you are in. You like the guy because he doesn't accept no for an answer. He destroys whatever he's in front of him. And he doesn't matter what bodies he leaves along the way. And you wish you were that.

That's your idea of the American dream. The idea of American power for you is you wish you could dominate whoever you wanted to and grab any pussy that you wanted to. you wish you could do that. You don't want America to be the way things were under Trump. You want to be Trump because you've been sold

this fever dream, this American pornographic creation of what it means to be powerful in this country. It doesn't have anything to do with solidarity or sacrifice or sharing has to do with domination and who you can fuck. Oh.

And I'm just sick of the pretending. This motherfucker's out of control. You guys want to be him. You want to be near him. You want nobody to be able to tell you no. So that's what you do. That's who you follow. The guy that represents this,

you niggas can't tell me about what was going on. Y'all don't know what this motherfucker did. You're talking. Anyway. So every time something like this happens, because look, I fall into the trap too. I fall into the trap of look, you guys, we have to make a country where

everybody talks and we listen to everyone and we all get together and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that assumes that you're negotiating with human beings. My mom told me this. This is what my mom told me. The last thing I'll say about this. This is what my mom told me.

A long time ago. What's the most important thing in a human relationship with anyone? Empathy. I was just talking to a new friend of mine. I was telling her this. Empathy. Right.

And my mother says, once you realize that someone doesn't have the capacity for empathy, move on. That would make them a sociopath, right? Once you realize that this person can't do it, done. Not that it's suppressed, not that it's not going to come out. Once you realize they don't have that capacity, done. She's telling me one dies, she had to do some work to be able to understand that my father could be empathetic because he presented so strong. But then she'd see it. And she'd be like,

oh, there it is right there. But once you get to a point that you realize that somebody doesn't have the capacity for empathy, you're out. Yeah. I think we've been there with Trump, but people want to be that. the way you say it is so right and it's so clear, but the people who still want to support him, it's like they feel like they can compartmentalize Trump, which to me doesn't make sense, right? They say, well, I can ignore this or we don't really take him that seriously.

We're voting for him because of this. Or we're anti-Joe Biden. or anti-Joe Biden's policies or certain people in his administration. And they try to separate themselves from the extremists. And the way you lay it out, and it's so true, you can't at this point. You can't separate, you know, the people who are driving down the street in Long Island with a hog-tied Joe Biden to the back of the truck. You can't separate yourself from them.

because all of y'all are coming together to elect a president who's pretty much telling you exactly what he's going to do once he's in office. And I love the way you said it, in the name of him. Every decision he will make will be in the name of Trump. And I don't know what is going to be a wake-up. If January 6th was not a wake-up call, if denying the election is not a wake-up call, if the fact that these rules, no rule or law applies to Trump, according to his, according to him, this is a man who does not believe that he can be stopped or control. If none of that is a wake-up call to you, it's almost like, why do we even, we have to keep

talking about it, but nothing will be because these people, and it's almost as twisted as the extremists, right? At least the extremists are just outright saying exactly what it is, they're going to do in their support and they admit it. I don't know if it's worse to be twisted to where you think that you are different or you are separate from the others. I think that's, I think it's worse. The denial.

Yeah, I agree. All right. Real quick, go watch it from Van Lathen. Go watch Eric Adams on the Breakfast Club. I know how you used to, you know, go watch it because he didn't realize who was going to be waiting there for him. Well, it wasn't Jess It was Olae who was there

You keep fucking with Jess You're gonna get what you looking for Did I not just say Did I not What did I say that was not that you? Okay, Rachel She is I could have been sitting in that chair

With like We've had her on the podcast We've had her on the podcast before She was She talks If you follow her on social media she continuously talks about what the mayor is doing in New York City. She was the perfect person to sit there on the breakfast club.

And as much as the breakfast club may say, like, all these people are talking about, you know, like they're defending what they did with Canada, so-and-so-and-blah, blah, blah, blah, all that. Obviously, they heard something to bring her in to have that conversation because she is very effective. In a lot of ways, but specifically when it comes to talking about the things that Mayor Adams is doing in New York City. say something here. Let me say something about that. Look, I'm not about to go to bat for anybody, but I'm saying all you can really hope when people get it wrong is that they listen to the criticism and then they don't get it wrong the second time. Now, you have to demand a certain amount of accountability, but I think a lot of New Yorkers would have felt a way if Mayor Adams was

allowed to come there. And I'm not as intimately educated on how New Yorkers feel about Eric Adams. I know how Olai feels about him, right? And they had great conversation. Go to her YouTube as well. Illuminati. Oloomani. O'Loranati.

Go to her YouTube page because they had a fantastic talk. It was her. It was Antoinette. It was Mark Lamar Hill. It was Christina B. Remember, you know who's taken off? You know who's taken off? the content world in the world of being a voice and being seen.

Who? Shout out to this lady. Remember the substitute teacher that we had a conversation about that heavy dick? With the pictures? Oh, it was a tweet. No, it was a tweet. The tweet. The tweet, she wanted some heavy dick on the weekend and we had a conversation about her.

See, it was good. she was suspended. No, it wasn't good. It sucks. She's blown the fuck up. Very talented, very smart. Let me shout her out. Very talented.

Look what it did. I saw her horrible decisions. She's now, I've seen her. Somebody, and it's so stupid for a school board or any place with someone that has that much to offer to have treated her that way. And that was my point then. I feel vindicated. in our, in my conversation now with, with talking about that.

Like, I feel vindicated with that. Would you like to maybe revisit that? And nobody questioned her intelligence. And I think, Ms. Miss. It helped. It gave her a platform. She up to a hundred K on the ground.

Miss X. Tina B. Follow her. She's doing comedy. She's doing introspective stuff. Good, good for her. She's fucking coming. on the web. I saw her and they were all talking about the whole Amanda Seals thing. And people's opinions on that. So it was great. So it was great. It's good. But you actually, to be

honest, if you all just aside, you're probably all right. It's probably better off that she dropped the heavy dick tweet and then she wasn't teaching anymore. She was free to go do the stuff that she was doing because it's a much better path. You know what I mean? The heavy dick tweet is something else. Heavy dick. It's funny. It's very, it's, it's funny to think of this heavy dick. You put the dick on the scale and then it registers. You know what I'm saying?

Wouldn't it weigh you down? Lift you up. No. Rachel said, lift you up. Wow! Hey, another requisite for the playbook. What Rachel just said, oh, no, stop. Rachel, would you stop denying who you are?

Rachel just said, another. requisite for the playbook is heavy deck. Rachel said all the guys out there with that five pound cock. Let her know. You, yo, straight up right now don't even, this is what y'all

do, don't even play around. Just hit Rachel's DM with the pictures. Hit Rachel's DM with the pictures. Hit him with the pictures. You know what I mean? Like, hit her with the pictures. No, don't do that.

Don't do that. That's actually sexual intimidation, harassment and all kinds. Don't do that. It's a joke. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

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Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Celebrating Diversity Month with insightful higher learning podcast with somebody just bi-pop entrepreneurs just gave us a shout out.

That's great. Do you consider yourself to be bi-Poc? I mean, yeah, aren't we all? I don't really use that term, but... I'm black. Well, that's what the B stands for. That's what the B stands for. But do we want to be...

I don't use that term. Shout out to Bipok. What is Bipak? I think I used to. What is it? Black, indigenous. Black and indigenous people of color? Is that right?

Black and indigenous people of color? I guess that's cool. Is that right? Why? What's with me? Why don't? Why? You don't like labels?

It's not that I don't like labels. It's like my label is black. So I'm cool with having a party where we're all get together and we plan, plot and strategize, I is. But I don't want it to be formal because this goes back to my whole thing about allyship. I don't have any problem with the term Bipak. I think it's a great term.

You know what I mean? But I don't like umbrella terms for the black experience. I don't. Well, BIPOC is not just about the black experience. It's inclusive of all minorities. But I don't want to be inclusive of all minorities. Oh. I don't.

I want to be, I want to empower all minorities, but I need to keep my eyes on the prize. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to be inclusive of all minorities because, like, I want all minorities, particularly the indigenous people of this world, who once I start thinking about what the indigenous people, particularly if the United States went through, it fills me up with this just,

just unshakable rage. When you think about the fact that it's 20, 25 million people living above the Rio Grande at a certain point, and now it's like a couple of hundred thousand people, like when you think about that, it just, it just fills me up with rage, like with whatever. but I almost get so specific with the black experience. Sometimes it's like black people, a black diaspora.

Okay, it's a big diaspora. And I'm like, cool. And then it becomes black Americans. And then it becomes black people from the South. And then it becomes black people from Louisiana, a difference between black people in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. And then it just gets all the way. But it just gets boiled down to just, my understanding of just black people in South Baton Rouge.

I don't know. I'm very, I'm very gatekeeping with my, with my freedom. Yeah, I mean, you left me out. I eventually got left out. Yeah, but that's not right. So maybe it's definitely not, I'm calling myself down to the congregation. It's not right. but everybody has different needs

and sometimes we get all thrown together and it gets diluted. I don't have a problem with it if you're talking about it in a specific way. Right? But if it's something that's particular to, it's a black issue, then no, you don't use BIPOC.

And I don't think people would. But if you're talking in general and you're talking about minorities, or you're talking about people of color, you want to be inclusive of not white, then I don't have a problem with it. Do you know when I first learned about the term of color? What?

When? Playboys, women of color. Well, that sounds on point. There was a specific magazine. I don't know if Playboy ever had like Playboys black bunnies or black girls or Playboy. Because they always, when it was in that world, they would always go too far. it would always be something that was a little bit offensive. Playboys, Newbian Knights.

Playboy, African allure. You know what I mean? And they just put a bunch of black women together and they were probably like go to Nairobi to shoot it or something like that. You know what I mean? It's like they would do that. But I remember it was Playboy women of color. And then when they had women of color, there was all different.

It wasn't just black women. It was Latinas. There was some Asian ladies in there. And I was like, oh, of four. color means all of us together. Wow. What always happens to me, as soon as I think we're all together,

somebody says, nah, nigger, not you. This is what happens. So I'm going to, look, so look, I'm going to explain, just real quick before we move on, because I got something else to run by you. I'm going to explain my diaspora trauma.

The trauma of the gaspia. Okay, go ahead. And everybody around has felt the same trauma. So I'm not saying that, that is unique to black Americans. Every time I start feeling that we're all together, somebody would say, nah, not you. And it wouldn't be nah, not,

they would be, it's like, when I first learned the Akata word. I don't know why that's funny. I don't know why. It would be like, nah, me, not you, not you. Nah, shit. Not you. Not you. Like, it would be like, oh, shit. We're all together.

together is one big diaspora. We do the same dances. We drink the same drinks. And he'll be like, nah, this drink is for my culture. And I would be like, what? You just ate some of my gumbo. Like, you just, we was just on the same Kool-Aid. Like, nah, this drink, this drink come from Ghana.

You can't touch this drink. Or when you, you know, you drink it big up us because it's our drink. But everything you do is for all of us. and then we have this stuff that we do and it's just for us. And I'd be like, God damn. Like when I first learned about the Akata thing, I was looking at this Nigerian girl that I was trying to talk to and her brothers was like, I've told this story,

her brothers were like telling me her parents would never go for. Yeah. And they were like, no, you were, her brothers, well, I was cool with, I play basketball with her. Her brother was like, nah, you're Akata. Our parents wouldn't want her to be. with you, you're a kata. And I'm like, how the fuck y'all got a word? Like,

why would y'all have a nigger word? And then you know what they told me? It was like, y'all got a word too. Y'all call us African booty scratches. Y'all do all kinds of things. Everybody got it. Don't think it's only going one way. Everybody got it. And I have to be like, that's true. But the scars are still

there. It's facts. Because we're going to all be dancing to Jay-Z or to Wayne or something. We're all going to be dancing. Everybody going to be dancing together. We're all going to be doing the thing. And then some other type of music is going to come on. I'm going to start doing their dances and they're going to be like, appropriation. I'm going to be like, yeah, you know what, man? Fuck it.

Fuck it. I think we all have a non-night-you moment. What was yours? Did you have one? Like just nine, nigger, now a black American, not you. Did you have one? I'm sure. I can't think of it at the moment. But there was a time where I knew I was not included. I told you that I didn't realize until I went to college that we were all on one accord you know we had we had like black student alliance and then there was like African student association and I was like oh like yeah and it was like no not you not you and I was kind of like are we all together I didn't realize that we we they looked at us in a different way. I did not know that until college. Not everybody. The reason why I overreacted with the Acho thing, which I did. Okay.

Overreacted. The reason why I overreacted with the Acho thing is because that was a nah, not you. It's like I can talk to these people because I don't have this type of trauma. I'm like, listen at this motherfucker right here. And rather than just confront. It's true. It is a non-not-you moment. Like rather than just confront.

front what was being said, I launched into emotion. I'm not saying I said anything wrong, but I shouldn't have disrespected that man like that. But he did say, no, not you. That's what I'm saying. So that's like, I got to get my trauma. You know what I've been doing? Speaking of this segue, so I'm reading Coleman Hughes's book. I want to have Coleman Hughes on the podcast.

The new book? His newest book. Why did you make that thing? Because that means I'm going to have to read the book too. I'm on. I'm through chapter one. Okay. I'm going to do some work.

He's making his rounds with this book. So I should have known this was coming. To make, to get Coleman to come on the show. I'm sure he'll come on. Well, we'll see. He's a busy guy. The book is, Jesus Christ, look at all these goddamn books. No wonder I'm a goddamn.

I got to get my. behind a break, man. The book is called The End of Race Politics. You know what? For the rest of this week, I'm not going to listen to nothing but doom. I'm serious. Listen to these books. I'm reading record for the American dream again,

the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. I just, except for Palestine, Markle-Mahill and Michael Pitnick. Like, I read Joanna's MCU book, you know, just all of this stuff. Adolf Reed, Barbara J. Fields. You read multiple things. Folks at one time?

Yeah, because I'm listening to them. Oh, you listen to them. I can't. Yeah, these are, these are, anything that I read, so I am reading, the Palestinian refugee problem by Benny Morris. That book was $75 on Amazon. And when the book came, there was a library card insert in the back of it. So this is somebody's fucking book that they got from the,

library never gave that bitch back it was the last one they had so i'm reading that mark told me to read that uh but so i got that with me so i'll read that whenever i'm locking in like study taking notes and all of that stuff but as far as just reading things um i listen to a lot of them you know on a plane different stuff all of that but i'm listening to coleman who uses book right now um i'm into it i think he has uh not a unique take like i've heard a lot of this stuff before but he does have a very thoughtful take on what he begins what he thinks the end of race politics should be.

I'm only through the first chapter. So there's a lot more to have. But I think that he's a thoughtful guy. I think he's a sincere guy. And I think that he has a fucking fantastic brain and I would love to have Coleman Hughes come on, come on higher learning. Love it.

I thought what happened. I'm not anti Coleman Hughes coming on at all. You're not? No. This was bait for you. I just knew that you would be against it. Why? We had Camel on.

Yeah. Look at your face. You hate a black conservative. No, I don't. He said that he's not a black conservative, by the way. No, I don't. I really don't because it would be an intelligent conversation, I think. He's not a concern.

Huh? He's not a conservative. We don't have to agree, but I've constantly said that I've really liked when we had Camel on. Like, I've constantly said that. I agree with anything he said. Not against that. Dr. Coleman real quick.

Let me ask you this. We move on. Since we're just kind of free-flowing to end of the podcast, he was on the view. He was going back and forth with Sunny, about his views on colorblindness as he sees it. So a lot of people equate colorblindness

to I don't see race or to pretending not to see race. I think that's a big mistake. We all see race. right and we're all capable of being racially biased so we should all be self-aware to that possibility my argument is not for that my argument is that we should try our very best to treat people without regard to race both in our personal lives and our public policy of course and the reason i wrote this book thank you

rachel when you hear someone saying that we should have a colorblind American society. What do you think about that? That it's impossible. I think it's aspirational. You know, like, good for you for wanting this utopia where we don't see each other as different, but it's just unrealistic to me.

I'm not knocking somebody who desires to say, I wish we could all just see each other as people and as human beings, but it's just not possible. And we've talked about it multiple times on this podcast. One, if you were just particularly talking about the American society, race is embedded in every single facet of it. And I don't want to shoot him down for it. I just think it's a waste of time. And I'm not saying that we should, you know, continue to insert race into everything.

But I also don't believe in not facing the reality of the situation, which you have to talk about race because. it is so a part of how everything is run and I'm only speaking to America and I didn't watch the clip I didn't watch his back and forth

the sunny I haven't seen the episode I know he was on the view so I don't know particularly what he said I'm just speaking to what you said about a colorblind society you'd have to like start over you'd have to wipe everybody off the face of the earth

and like have people who come in without being without any sort of bias or knowing how things existed in this world before. And I still even think the way we function as human beings

with oh my God. Pork sausages. No, no, no. Thank you. It came back to me. Ashley, can you cut out that pause? No, no, no, no. You have to leave the pause

that I tell you why. I thought about it before you said pork. Because you guys, please leave that in. Like Rachel couldn't find what she was saying. And I waved pork in front of her nose like smelling salt. And it jogged her memory. So please leave that in. Like Rachel couldn't find it.

I'm like pork sausages. Boom. Wait, my whole internet messed up. And I feel like it did on purpose. Anyways, I was saying with the way people think about, I think it's within, innately within us, that we want survival of the fittest, that we want to be better than the next person.

So it would probably happen all over again, even if you did, but it's just impossible. So you, you believe you can have a colorblind society? I don't want it. I know you don't believe that. I don't want it. I think it's a cop out. I don't want a colorblind society.

But why do you think it's a cop out? Why do you use that phrase? because to get to this point now and say that you want a colorblind society is like saying okay all of this stuff has happened we've set you black in this many ways we've degraded you we've dehumanized you we've minimized you we've done all of these things now let's just pretend that your color doesn't matter. So it mattered enough for us to take everything that you've ever had. For us to take your children, for us to take your lives, for us to take your sense of

self-worth, for us to take your wealth, for us to take your language. It meant so much then that we had to do all of that. Now let's just pretend like it doesn't matter. No. You can't just pretend like my blackness doesn't exist now. you have to see my blackness. You have to feel it. You have to understand it.

You have to do the work to understand why I'm not less than. You have to do the work to understand what happened, what was done, why it was done, how it's affected me, what me being black has meant. If you don't want to do that, you can choose to ignore it, but I'm not playing the game with you. because in order for me to be able to live in a society where I trust you, I have to know that this much has been done. Not necessarily by every individual person. I'm not asking everybody to go out there and take African American studies or do all it is. I'm talking about as a society as a country.

Okay. They have to decriminalize black is what they have to do. you know, they have to do, they have to de-exploit black. There's a, there's a trust hold and it's deserved. When Dr. King said, you know, I have a dream that one day man would be judged by not the color of the skin, but the content of the character. He said, dream. He didn't say, let's start judging men by the color of their skin.

He said, I have a dream that one day we'll get there. Well, the question is to everyone who says, this is how Dr. King wanted it. Have we done enough to get there? That's it. Have we done enough? Have we done enough? Has there been enough work done to get there? Any dream, you have a dream to go to the NBA.

You can dream all you want. But you got to work on that left head. You got to run hills. You got to do all. all of that. It's more than that. Go forward. Well, no, to your point,

it's not just, have we done enough work? You use the analogy of, you want to go to the NBA, have you done the work? The question is, is it even possible? You could do all the work you want to work as hard as you want. It still may be possible for you to never achieve it. This might be a dream, a dream, and I don't think they can ever be achieved.

It can't be colored. It's not possible. I'm not. I don't want to ever take a world without racism off of the table. It's not not racism. It's not seeing color. I know. I understand that.

What I'm saying is in order to get past racism, you have to see color. You have to. In order to get past racism, you have to acknowledge that people are different, that cultures are different. I understand. What your skin has denoted. in America means for a large portion of people, or for the most part, a different set of cultural realities for you. You have to confront that.

And you have to confront it. And you have to say, despite these things, and I haven't worked my way through the book yet. So I don't see how Coleman unpacks these things. But you have to say, despite these things, despite the fact that you are black and I'm white, despite all of that, I recognize your basic humanity

and your ability to exist, determine your life for yourself at the same level that I do. And if there are any glitches and holes in your experience and my experience, if I'm not going to work to feel them, at least I'm going to acknowledge them. So stop gaslighting.

Sure. And so for me, I think that's important because I think just dropping it now is not restorative. Just dropping it now isn't restorative. And it posits something to me that I think is comforting for the people that have had a hand up for all of these years. And confusing for those who haven't. But I would be very interested to talk to him about this. I think he he's doing the only thing

that, and this is just from reading the forward and because he told a very personal story in the forward from reading the introduction and the first chapter and seeing him and other things that he's done. I've actually followed him for a long time. Seeing him and other things that he's done. This is, he's doing the only thing

that you can ask somebody to do, which is to try to build a version of the world that they think is the best world that they think is the best. So I, you know, I think that that's, That's true of him. I just, I don't know how I would ever get there without there being some real deep heart and uncomfortable conversations with white America.

Anyway, or some pain or some blood or some fire. Anyway, it works for me, really. Okay. It's time for us to go. I got to get a lip brush from my hat. you do i'm going straight i had a lunch i can't make it i'm going straight i'm going straight i'm going straight i got i got sick nose i got sick nose you see oh you smell it no no remember how you said the nose gets red the nose gets red that's crazy i got sick nose um you got to cut out the pork

man i'm just being honest with you so i actually haven't had a pork chop and like a week a week without pork it's crazy all right we got to No, I didn't say without pork. I said pork chop. See what I'm saying? You got too much pork on your diet, man. Take 10 caps off with Denazzo. Take 10 caps off with Denazzo.

I'm Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. I apologize for the coughing. Guys, sorry. I'm going to take care of myself and get better. Bye. Bye.