Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Musk-Trump Interview, Simone Biles’s Past, and Voting Rights With Representative Stacey Abrams

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay start today’s episode by giving their impressions on the Elon Musk and Donald Trump interview on X (05:59). Then, they talk about Simone Biles’s past coming back (18:48) and give an update on the Raygun breaking situation (34:03). Later, they are joined by American politician, lawyer, voting rights activist, and author Stacey Abrams (58:32) to talk about her new podcast, 'Assembly Required'; ranked-choice voting; and how to go about solving the biggest concerns facing young voters. Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Stacey Abrams Producer: Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? High Learn is on. It is I, Van Lathan, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Okay, for those who are listening, Van, first of all, we've been talking five minutes before, maybe 10. Van has not sat out.

He's got the mic in his hand, like he's about to take the stage. What is this energy you bring it back from D.C.? First of all, I want to say shout out to D.C. I want to say shout out to everybody in D.C. I want to say shout out to everyone out there in D.C. I fuck with D.C. heavy, man. D.C. is my favorite chocolate city in all of America. New Orleans, Baton Rouge, chocolate cities.

I love them in my heart, they don't count. But of all the cities where black people are running shit, D.C. is my favorite one, man. Shout out to D.C. Shout out to the Mumbos Shaws. Shout out to everything that's out there, man. Shout out to Hamilton. Shout out to everybody in D.C. Shout out to the people at CNN.

Catch me on the United States of Scandal. you know what I mean? Shout out to Jake Buck and Tapper. Shout out to everything that we're doing out there in D.C. The way we're making it happen. Okay. Well, we're glad you're back. We're glad you had a good time. Now that you finish shouting everybody else out, can we do higher learn?

Can we focus on higher learning? Ashley, do you feel like an afterthought? Yes. Because that's what it's starting to feel like. I apologize. Okay. Like here's the rule. Because I'm about to be like, go back to D.C.

I told you guys the apology rule. What's that? What's my rule about apologies is once I apologize, that's it. You guys. That's it. I apologize. That's it. Rachel, you got a big interview coming up on this episode.

Yeah. Hold it down solo for higher learning. No. big interview with, oh, idea holds it down, big interview with Stacey Abrams, who's a friend of the show, we've had her before,

she's always doing something, always got boots on the ground, there's always something to talk to her about because she's a woman who truly doesn't stop fighting for the people. She's a woman of the people. This time she's promoting her new podcast, dropped Thursday today. I was recording this on Thursday.

Assembly required, it's on Crooked Media. And she is, is breaking down all the questions that we have, to be honest with you. I mean, in this first episode, she's talking about the electoral college, how antiquated rules and laws that exist. She's answering questions from, I don't want to say too much, but she's got brought a family member on who's 18, got the right to vote, who has a lot of questions trying to understand her new role as she now has the privilege, the right to vote.

And it's just really interesting. And she's got a lot of great upcoming episodes on the podcast. And she sits down and she talks with everything. We talked to her about that. We talked to her about Vice President Kamala Harris. We asked her about what the campaign's biggest struggles are going to be, what she thinks they need to do. She talks about some laws that she thinks need to be changed,

some rules about this antiquated system that exist within our democracy. See, she really, she doesn't shy away from anything. So it's a really good interview. Good interview. Can I wait for everybody to hear it? I think Stacey Abrams is a worthwhile American political figure. She's done so much already. She's accomplished so much.

You know, I say something about Stacey. There are a lot of people who you want to believe in, but then there are a lot of people that you want to support. Wanting to believe in someone is, hoping that they can do the things that they want to do. Supporting someone is someone who's putting your energy behind someone who's already done the things that they said that they could do. Stacey Abrams is the second. She's been fighting a lifelong battle to turn people out to vote.

She was to me shafted down there, shafted. But she continues to fight the good fight, which tells me it's not about Stacey Abrams. It's about the end goal. I respect Stacey A Absolutely Respect you do you? Do you? Yeah, look it is

Well, you gave me a thumbs down on the screen So it doesn't feel that way I didn't do that on purpose I just learned what you can do with this kind of stuff Okay, tell you let's do it Wait It's not working Nothing's happening

Somebody showed me But look at this Watch me I'll do it, boom It fucks with me Okay, well maybe it's my maybe it's my screen. Oh, balloons in your motherfucking face.

It fucks with me. It's not fucking with you. It's not fucking with you. What's happening? It's not fucking with you. It's not fucking with you. Look, here's a piece sign. Do not.

When my balloons at? Where my balloons at, nega. Like, it's fucking with me. It's not, look at this. Well, thumbs up. Give it to me. Give me my thumbs up. Give me my thumbs up.

Come on, fellas. God. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. I thought I was going to show you something. On the other side of the break, Trump, Elon Musk talked on X.

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18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manager activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Rachel, Trump and Elon Musk were on X and they had a conversation, a spaces conversation. You know, for some reason when this was announced, I thought that this would be some sort of Elon Musk sit down.

in the same vein that we saw him sit down with Don Lemon, but it wasn't that. Did you have high expectations for, other than the visual, the setup, did you have high expectations or were you, was there something you were walking into this with that you thought you would walk away with? And like, in my opinion, I expected this to be a hot mess and that's exactly what it was. I had no, it wasn't anything that piqued my interest. I didn't think we were going to gain anything from it. I felt like this was going to be somebody talking into a mirror.

They differ on some things, but for the moment, there are two people who are egotistical who love to hear themselves talk. I do think that they, I get what you're saying, and it's true. I do think that there are some interesting storylines inside the Trump campaign right now. Obviously, this is the roughest patch that they've had in this particular campaign season. Really, I venture to say that this is the roughest, patch that Donald Trump has had as a political figure ever.

And that includes any of the stuff that happened no, you'd have to say the immediate aftermath of January 6th, when everyone temporarily disavowed themselves of him and all of that stuff. That's probably to be worse. But as far as as a campaigner,

it's unwrapping. Things are terrible. Things are bad. Things are, you know. And so there's a curiosity there about whether or not the Trump campaign will stay the course in some of their attacks, their ad hominem attacks on Kamala Harris against the campaign or whether they will pivot to making a substantive case to the American people about why Trump should get another four years in the White House. and that's not what they did, and that's not what they're doing. And it was fucked up. They were speaking for two hours. They had every type of problem that you could have.

They had tech problems because it continued to shut down, which Elon Musk blamed on someone attacking the technology of X. They had problems as far as understanding Trump because he seemed to be slurring his speech. And he continued down the same path that he's been down for the last couple of weeks, with his ad hominem attacks with this really difficult word salad that he spouts off when he gets into his trumpiness now it seems to be more unintelligible than ever i know a little something about an intelligent speech okay he's passed me up um and overall it was the hot mess that you thought that it was going to be. And you wonder who's pushing a panic button

over there in the Trump campaign? I think if you're going to hop on board with Trump, then you do whatever he tells you to do. It seems like that's the type of campaign that he's running, which is why there's so much turnover and inconsistency within the campaign. I think he's running the show when it comes to that. And it doesn't seem like,

it seems like he very rarely listens to anybody else. But I think part of the reason, you know, this was billed as, you know, there would be no interruption. This was raw. This was, you know, you're getting Trump. You're going to see Trump in a way that you don't get to see him. And we saw him.

We saw him do what he always does. Talk, say a lot of things, as you said, word salad that have no meaning, spew insults, make false statements. And there was no pushback from Elon Musk in this. Even if there was, they might disagree on certain things. They might disagree a little bit. But not the way. that there should have been. Of course, there was no fact-checking in a sense.

But also, I do want to say I thought was interesting. This did start late, very similar to the NABJ. And when he hopped on to talk about them, he criticized black people about their technology and how they didn't have it together, but didn't seem to do that for Elon Musk. I mean, they're blaming it on a cyber attack, but at the end of the day, that's not what that was.

cyber attack. Musk a couple of times tried to nudge Trump. He's talked about climate change. He said he didn't want to vilify the oil and gas industry, but he wanted to push Trump and the world to

accept sustainability as a strategy to deal with some of the real environmental challenges that we have forward. I think that this is a lot more interesting to me from the Elon Musk's side of it than it is for the Trump side of it. Elon Musk has, you know, increasingly weaponized X. This is Trump coming back to X. I guess that in and of itself is interesting being

that he had basically stayed on truth social, which he has a huge, huge, huge financial interest in trying to build it up. It's, you know, a large portion of his portfolio right now is his whole Trump media situation that he's doing. People are losing money. Hand over fist. It's crazy how badly that enterprise is doing for him. But he comes back to X and he falls into the welcoming arms of Elon Musk, who has now basically completely, completely pulled the shroud back on himself in the last year as a right-wing Trump sycophant. he went from being

you know to many people this trailblazing thought leader this futurist to really just being another Donald Trump Jr. Elon Musk is basically Donald Trump Jr. with Tesla stock.

It's the same fucking thing. It's like it's cool. And so he's he's doing this entire thing And it's all to sniff at the throne of Trump, which is interesting to me. So many people want to sniff at the throne of Trump. And Elon must have just another one of them. And this was Trump's coronation, his digital coronation, at X, and it didn't really seem to go well. X is failing in every single way.

X, in a lot of ways, represents what happens to something when it becomes magaized. the X that we're in now when it becomes Maga eyes. I think that Elon Musk sucks up to Trump or wants to touch the hem of his garment because he wants access and he stated that he would, I forgot what specific role he said, but he would want a role within the government,

within his administration. And Musk has said multiple times that he doesn't really believe in regulations he believes that there are things that you can circumvent, that you can get around. So just imagine someone, I think he wants access to that power so he can do more to circumvent these rules and regulations that he doesn't believe should exist. You know, I think, so I think the reason that someone like a must turns to Trump is because he sees that that's his pathway to have certain access that he's not going to get when he supports the other side. It's all, it's all a self-interest, very similar to J.D. Vance, not for the same. same reasons, but the reason he changed his tune is because he wants access to a higher power.

He was never going to get that staying in the place, or maybe it would take longer, staying in the position that he was in before. The other reason this was a disaster is because two other things came out of this. United Auto Workers have filed a federal labor charge against Donald Trump and Elon Musk because they believe that part of the conversation was threatening workers on this platform. And yes, it was. And then a Democratic political action committee has filed a complaint as well with the FEC because they said the fact that there was technology, there was a technology issue at the beginning. And so ex-workers had to use their staff to do something to help Trump's campaign to be on this platform.

And I'm saying this, I know I'm jumbling up as I'm saying this. You could read about this in more detail that that violates. campaigns laws. So the direct thing that Trump said that threatened workers was he

basically complimented Elon Musk because he said there was a union issue at Tesla and at Elon Musk rather than deal with the union people

he just fired everyone. Trump was like I'll pat on the back of that. And if you are pro-union, the right is trying to position themselves as being

a pro-labor party, and you hear something like that, that's Trump directly complimenting, crushing union organization as a tactic to circumvent the power of the work. I will say this, though, as far as Elon Musk's access, Elon Musk has always had a very close relationship with the government. But not a title. Very close. I don't. Not a title.

But what I would say is I tend to think that this is an emotional. thing from Elon Musk I mean I'm sure he wants you know deregulation what died in the world billionaire

doesn't want deregulation ha ha ha I don't know how to hold them I don't know how to fold them up when you

deregulate okay so he I'm sure he wants that but you know he's heavily subsidized a lot of his quote unquote

success comes from his relationships and very heavy government subsidies when we're talking about SpaceX and different stuff like that. So he gets a lot of money for the government. For him to be so, I don't know, right-wing, he's really on the teat of the U.S. government.

That goes back some time. I tend to believe, although your points are well-taking, I tend to believe that Elon Musk is pouty. He's going through a long-term pout. Okay. Right.

And when powerful white men pout, they're like Bill Maherty, Elon Musk pouting. When powerful white men pout, they seek to strangle the things that they disagree with. they say hey we've got to have conversation we got to do all this if anything I would say Elon Musk wants to be more powerful so that he can reshape the world

and the image he thinks it should be in because of his tech bro arrogance like his tech bro arrogance is kind of what he wants I don't necessarily know that there's any substantive change that he would make if he became if he got some sort of title

I just think he wants the ability And maybe we're not saying Anything different. I just think he wants the ability To To remake the world He wants America to be Tesla He wants America to be SpaceX He wants America to be all of these things

You know, that he can fuck with Yeah But I think we agree on that Yeah Oh Oh What is this? What the hell kind of bullshit?

Who posted this? Boy, let me tell you something these guys are so fucking corny. And Elon Musk. No, I don't. Elon Musk shared that. Rachel. I don't like it.

You love it. It made me itch. I didn't like it. Ew. Okay. Let's talk about this. This is very interesting. Simone Biles,

Olympic champion. She's been everywhere. Okay. She's doing really well. Her mom is back, her birth mom. Shannon Biles. is her name. And she says that she's hopeful one day that she'll be able to have a relationship

with her daughter, who is Simone Biles, one of the most famous women on the planet right now. Just had a summer where we crowned her, a queen of the culture. She's going to wear one of those crowns forever. Channis 52. She had given up Simone and a younger sister to their grandfather and grandmother when the girls were just toddlers. She had had some problems, some problem with addiction, different problems in her life. She wasn't in a position to raise her daughters, and she had really have been around for their youth. And she's hoping now at the age of 52, which is still relatively young, right?

Yeah. I know other people that are going through these same things with, with parents and these parents are much older, that she wants to have some sort of life with her daughters. And she got her ass kicked. This was reported. And she got her ass kicked. Everybody was like, what a fuck?

Who the fuck you think you are? After all of these times, these girls have to make it by themselves. Now you're popping back up. like it's the night before the draft and your kids about to go number one. But there have been some other people that have said, you know, maybe we're being a little too harsh on Shannon. Rachel, where do you fall? I mean, I'm in between, right? You know, part of it, it is giving Megan Markle's dad a little bit, right?

But when I read, when I read, when I read, why? Why? Why? I so apologize. Why? That's my, that white boy right there. I don't know what his politics are. I'm sure they're fucked up, right?

But when we used to cover him on TMZ, that motherfucker is straight out of central casting. That's my nigga. Go ahead, Rachel. Wait. I didn't realize it's been that long. Like, I didn't realize you were still working at TMZ when he was popping up.

Oh, he was doing this name for sure. Always mix up your TMZ years. But it's giving a little bit of that. but as I was reading into it a little bit more, her mom didn't just pop up. It seems like her mom's been trying for a while. I mean, maybe since her Olympic status, but it wasn't just this year,

even though this story is coming out where she's, according to her, she's been trying to reestablish a relationship or established for the first time a relationship with Simone Biles and her sister. She said the sister has, she communicates with more. But with Simone, she doesn't have, have the same type of communication. It's hard to, this is one of those things where it's like,

it's hard to talk about because we have no idea the family dynamics or the history involved. And, you know, I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between Simone and her mother. But I'm never going to be a fan. I don't care how desperate you are for the, to get the attention of that person. I'm never going to be a fan of you going to the media to do it. I think that does more harm than good. If you're trying to pressure Simone, get public pressure, you know, to get her to have a relationship with you, this is not the way to do it. This is embarrassing to her. It's airing out the family business.

And we know one thing in the black culture is you don't tell the family's business. You don't do that. So to me, I think that whatever steps forward she had taken with Simone, I think she took these steps backwards doing this. In no way do I think that this is going to be beneficial to Simone. I feel sorry for all parties involved, especially that there's a rift in the family. I can only imagine how hard this has been over the years for Simone and her mother and the grandfather and the sister.

But this ain't the way to do it. I'm never going to agree with this. So obviously it's not the way to do what I agree with you. Two things. One, a lot of people were saying that when we talk about the crack era, mass incarceration, the way addiction has impacted

different black communities right I think they're from down there in Texas if we're going to have compassion and have those conversations with compassion it doesn't matter if you care about addicted people it doesn't matter if you care about

black people the question I always ask is do you care about black person right because it's easy to give this big amorphous sort of answers. Yeah, I care about people that are going through addiction issues, this kind of almost formless statement that all these people who are faceless and nameless. But when someone who actually has had that type of toil in their life wants a second chance

or wants to be whole again, do you care about that person? would you say and go to bat for that individual person? No matter how hard it is, no matter how emotional is, no matter what type of relationships it might strain, no matter what happens, is that person worthy of emotional restoration? It's always tough to ask because then you have to think about somebody else's situation and, you know,

Simone's situation, how they went through things when they were kids and stuff. So I don't have any thoughts about what Simone should do because it's not a situation I was in. But I know how I would want us to approach people who have had a rough time. Right. And what I would want is for us to be able to, as a group, as a society, as a culture, look at the rough time that they had and analyze whether or not they're making better strides and trying to be a better person. and then hopefully we can repair those bombs, right?

To your point, going to the press doesn't look great. Also, at this particular, the timing of it doesn't look great. Simone's inner moment, the whole nine, all of that stuff doesn't look great. It reeks of desperation, but at the same time, there is something that I think is genuine about seeing someone of your body accomplish everything that Simone Biles has accomplished and then wanting to be close to that.

A lot of people are going to say, hey, it's money, hey, it's fame, hey, it's everything that Simone has accomplished. And I'm sure that's part of it, right? But if your self-worth has been so diminished and if your self-worth has been so disintegrated, If you've been down to the depths like that and you see something of your body, someone that came out of you, achieve those types of things, think of how validating that would be for you. Think about the purpose that that would give to you. Think about like, and to me, it's probably a part of her getting back to where she has to get back to, or maybe going to a new place that she wants to be in the orbit of her daughter.

We'll say this, though, last thing. My father passed away. We learned that we had, how should I say, new family or family that we didn't know about. They weren't new. He knew about him. We didn't know about them. Family is definitely about a set of genetic circumstances. But it's all about, but it's also about memories, process.

and familiarity. So it's hard to start from scratch after a while of not being around someone or not knowing someone. It's not an easy thing to do. I think a lot of people out there, I think a lot of people, it's not an easy thing to do. So it's not easy for some of own vows, I would guess, to look at somebody as her mother who hasn't been around, you know? Well, and we don't know what's happening between, right? We know, and I'll say that part for in a second, but we know that her mom struggled with drugs. She wasn't able to take care of the kids.

The mom's father stepped up, took two of the kids, and then his sister took the other two. So it separated this family, and they spent a moment in foster care. We don't know how many times she may have tried to come back and it didn't work. We don't, and I'm all hypotheticals. We don't know if, you know, she, they did stay with her. And then, you know, she had a relapse. We just don't know what kind of toll this is taken on Simone. And this is going to sound, this is my second point, going to sound very harsh.

And maybe I'm not being sympathetic to what the war on drugs and the crack error did do to a generation of people. But it is still a decision that was made, right? And so I think in all fairness, Simone just, I'm not saying, I'm not, I'm saying there has to be a level of responsibility. And I'm saying, fans making a face at me. This is the bea face. I've been making this face for a long time. That's what that's a tough one. But here's my point.

So I think Simone, therefore, can make a decision as well in how she wants to handle it. It's not saying that she doesn't have grace because it does. does seem like at some level her mom can reach out to her, has had contact with her. She's the cut her off completely. She's just not in her life the way that she wants to be, the mom. Like she didn't attend the wedding. You know, she wasn't at the Olympics. But it seems like Simone has boundaries.

And in all fairness, I think that she's allowed to do that. I agree. So that sounds rough to say that. It's not that I'm not being sympathetic to the struggles and what that did to, a whole, how much it affected the black community. Can I say something real quick? I'm sorry. And so I want to, I want to name something.

So higher learning, I think is a good podcast. I love the podcast. We're going to grow. We're going to be bigger. But when people think that higher learning is just two lefties, not really lefties. Oh, it's moments like this. Left of people.

When people think, like, really, this is the difference right here, right? There's a part of me that, and I'm not saying you don't either because you got to have proximity to it. There's a part of me that just knows so many fucked up people that needed second and third and fourth and fifth chances because of all of this. And, you know, people that like, like I said, all my dad's brothers dead.

My beautiful Uncle David just passed away after living a lifetime of being one of the most beautiful soul. everybody had his problems. Friends and all that type of stuff like that. I just, I always want to see that happy ending for someone who had it rough like that. And I always want to see people like that at some, at some point, get like a soft bed to land on. And it's, it's not a pleats of Simone. or anything like that.

But if that woman like legitimately, like legitimately, wants to be around like her daughter and wants to repair, restore that, she'll never be fully whole until that happens.

You're right. And now the person with the decision that made that happen with Simone Biles doesn't owe her anything. And doesn't owe or anything. And just to be clear, I'm not saying don't give second, third, fourth chances.

That's why I think the father, her father, who is Simone's dad, has a relationship with his daughter again. I think it's different. That's a father to a child. He saw his child struggling. He took her kids and let her, you know, I'm sure, you know, she stumbled along the way. And they still have a relationship together. The mom has said that. The mom seems to be doing, thankfully, much better now.

and seems to have been that way for a while from what I was reading. But Simone has a different relationship with her mother. That's all I'm saying. And it's really her decision. And as hard as harsh as that might be, I think it is fair for her to decide the type of relationship she wants her mother based on decisions that were made. So you said that one parent took two, one brother,

the brother took two of them, and then the sister took two of them. Yeah. So she's being raised by her grandfather and the other siblings are by their great aunt. That great aunt. Right. His sister.

Man, I gotta be honest. I'm sure they love everybody. But if they split the kids up and one gets two and the other one gets two and then one of them that you get, that, you know,

it turns out to be some home piles, If me, like, you got to, you know what I'm saying? If my sister, if me and my sister had to break up kids, we're busting these two kids off, and you get two kids, and they go on, you know, they might make the honor roll or something. And then one of them becomes Simone Biles, man, you, like, I might have to, like, arrange a trade or something. This got to be fantasy kid football. You would see it that way. I would because I'm thinking to myself, I get two kids, and all of a sudden, that's,

tough, you know, after a couple years, you know, Simone just won the regionals again. Y'all going there and do your fucking homework, invent something. Man, do you know how much money it takes to finance a gymnastics career? Yeah, I get it. Like, it is, they end up homeschooling. It's so much time and money.

I get it. I saw this video of her. She was like six, and she was flipping. If you see that kid flip like that, you got to put the bread up. I saw it. I saw it. I saw it.

I saw her. She was like six. And she was flipping. Let me see one of these little motherfuckers that's be around me flipping like that. When she messed up, which she looks perfect. Got mad.

Oh, her. Yeah, she going places. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

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you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Raygun! She won't go away. There have been so many different fucking theories about Reagan. You've seen them? Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. What got people to, I mean, nobody stopped talking about Ray God. I don't know about you, Bampa. I can't not watch videos that pop up on my TikTok or my Instagram. Whenever she pops up, I got to watch it. I got to see if there's like, like old videos, not the Olympic performance. We've seen enough of that. I'm like, is there, is there something we missed? Is there a new move? Is there, is she really? Because, you know, you think that she was trolling us. At the end of the day, like, that's honestly just.

who she was. But the new story this week is that a change.org petition has been accusing her of an ethical behavior. They're saying that she, the selection process, she used to her own advantage by setting up her own governing body for breakdancing and overlooking other qualified break dancers. There's been some videos of other break dancers, particularly there's a Molly that she was going up against that a lot of people feel like Molly did. much better than she did. And that was what qualified Reagan to go to the Olympics. There are also some unverified claims that she denied funding to a group of incredibly talented.

This is a quote, underprivileged youth and alleges that Reagan defeated, quote, phenomenal breakdancers and won her own, quote, qualifier. And then they're also saying that her husband was involved and he was one of the judges. there's an article that debunks all of this that says none of that's true. It's all horseshit, right? It's all bullshit. I think some of that is coming from people who want an explanation as to how she got

to the Olympics. And once again, my friends in the dance community, I've been hoping to get somebody on. They can't speak enough about how important breaking being at the Olympics was. they can't speak enough about it, about the art that is breaking,

about how they feel like the cultural relevance of it has waned a little bit, and how this was an opportunity for breaking to become center stage, or at least have a resurgence in the American cultural discussion, the world's cultural discussion, shall I say, because it's obviously far from just an American thing.

It's like a worldwide modality of dance that people do and really feel like they're expressing themselves in, and that Raygun hijacked. So I think that there are some people who feel that way who are looking to some type of design as to why this happened, and they need a villain, and they want Ray Gunn to be that villain. Raygun spoke out for the first time. Here's what she had to say.

I just want to start by thanking all the people who have supported me. I really appreciate the positivity and I'm glad I was able to bring some joy into your lives. That's what I hoped. I didn't realize that that would also open the door to so much hate, which has frankly been pretty devastating. While I went out there and I had fun, I did take it very seriously. I worked my butt off preparing for the... Olympics and I gave my all, truly. A bit of a fun fact for you.

There are actually no points in breaking. If you want to see how the judges thought I compared to my opponents, you can actually see the comparison percentages across the five criteria on olympics.com. All the results are there. I'm going to be in Europe for a few weeks for some pre-planned downtime. But I really like to ask the press to please stop harassing my family, my friends,

the Australian breaking community, and the broader street dance community. Hmm. Uh, what the fuck? What the fuck you do about that, Rich? So there are no points, by the way. I, I'm bothered. I'm bothered when she's like, I really went out there to have fun. And it's like, the fun is in the opening ceremony. The fun is in the, I'm not saying, the fun is in the closing ceremony. I'm not saying you shouldn't

enjoy your time. You can't have fun when you're at the Olympics competing? It seems like that was her soul thing. Yes, she said she worked hard. But she's like, I wanted to bring joy to people and have fun. Well, if that's the case, then sign me up. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's a competition at the time. And I guess I didn't hear her use those words. You're there to compete. You're there to represent your country. You're supposed to be the best of the best. I understand there's a small pool of breakdancing in Australia. And so that's part of the other reason that she was able to elevate in such a way. But I am a little like, yes, people should stop harassing her and her family. Like, they should stop spreading misinformation out there. And, and

and lying on the way that she got there. But at the same time, the only negative thing I'm going to say is, it is more than just fun. And I think that's where it looked like you went out there to have fun. It really looked like you went out there to like, you know, you were filling the beat, you were filling the crowd, you were filling the energy, you know.

And that's what it looked like. It didn't look like you came out to compete. So, of course, people are going to be, yes, you came in as an underdog. people are going to be critical. And I think that there's a space for that to criticize the performance compared to the other break dancers that you had to compete against. But I do think the harassing should stop. Let me ask you a question.

Would this story be the same if Raygun were black? Yes. Obviously people wouldn't talk about cultural appropriation. But if a black woman went out there and came out swimming and came out. Kangaroo hot, they call it bunny hop, right? She went out there and started doing the bunny hop and posing like that. Of course people would make fun of it. Of course they would.

But the cultural appropriation angle wouldn't be there. But absolutely she would have been a meme. They would have been talking about it on social media. She'd probably be a Halloween costume. But it just heightens it that she's also white. I don't think there would have been as much misinformation. You wouldn't have maybe thought as much that she cheated her way, which is what Rachel Gunn is being accused of to get to this,

or that she pushed underprivileged youth out of the way, that rumor, to get to where she is. I don't think you would hear those storylines, but she'd still be a mean. We'd still be laughing. She doesn't deserve any type of harassment of her family. Definitely not. Definitely doesn't deserve that.

However, all of the slander in the world that is being directed at that performance is warranted. Yeah. It is time, though, for people to recognize some of the athletes that really performed well in breaking. Just, you know, talk about more and breaking as a whole. But I definitely agree with you. I do think that if she were, a lot of this has to do with the fact that she's white, but that's the way things out. Okay. Michael Rubin.

He's a friend of yours, right? Who? Michael Wood. He is not. He doesn't know who I am. I thought you liked him. I thought he was a pal. You made that up.

I have attended fanatics parties. I do not know him. Has, okay. Have you ever met him before? He's ever hugged you from behind? No, he's never hugged me from the front or behind, but I have interviewed him when I worked at Extra. I interviewed him in a robber craft.

One of your niggas. Let me tell you out something right now. This next clip right here is why I'm so fucking militant about this barbecue, invite him to the barbecue culture that I'll be in. Okay. Michael Rubin went on the breakfast club. And he was defending Meek Mill, some of the internet slander that Meek has gotten.

And this is what Michael Rubin had to say. The thing I don't like about that is it doesn't bother me for me. It bothers me that it actually, when I see the narrative of a really, good friend of mine like Meek and people are trying to, you know, again, if he was gay, which there's not one gay bone on his body, who cares, number one? Let's say, if people want to be gay this is 2024, who the fuck cares?

Okay, number two, there's not a gay bone on his body, so like, why do people want to lie about that? Why do people want to change a narrative of a bet he made with me to try to hurt him? Like, that is the one thing I've learned about, you know, look, I'm just being blunt because it's me. It's the one thing I've learned about black culture that I don't like is that black hate on hate. Speak on that more. I heard you say that early, and I wanted you to

expound on that. You said you don't like to see black people tearing down other black people. Yeah, it's horrible. Like, like, it's horrible. Like, what, like, I want to support every, look, you got, two of you guys know me pretty well. Anything I can ever help with, I'm always there. I always want to be helpful. I feel lucky and fortunate to do what I do every day. It'd be as, you know, whatever success I've had, I feel blessed to do that. And I want to give back in every way I can, you know, in business and in charitable things. I'm always trying to be helpful. Like, why does someone want to bring somebody else down? Let's try to build everybody up. Like, you know, I'd be more excited if, you know,

I'd be more excited to see one of my friends do something that's 99% less meaningful to me, but it would be really meaningful to them because I want them to do great. I want everyone around me to do great. I don't like watching, you know, there's a little bit, and you tell me, you guys correct me if you think I'm wrong. I think there's a little bit of a black culture of like it's black hate on hate. It's like that black judge that me had that hated on him and want to put it and go extra hard on him. Okay.

It's like it's what people always say to me. It's like black hate on hate. So I think it's terrible. I think it's something that it's, I think it's culturally wrong. And I'm probably a kill for saying this because, you know, you're, you know,

I'm glad you're saying it openly. If this is the conversations that are being had. I have it all the time with that. Yeah, I want to hear this. Yeah. So I, I think it's wrong.

I think, like, why do you not want to build everyone up around you? Why do you not want everyone around you to do great? The best way for everyone to do great is to push each other up. Go. Why, boy, who the fuck you're talking to?

Who the fuck you think you're talking to? Who, like, What you're talking about? Let me tell you what would never happen. Let me tell you what's an impossibility. It would be an a possibility for any black man, no matter how important he thought he was

or how important America thought he was to go on a platform with three Jewish people and then tell them what's wrong with their culture. I don't give a fuck how many. friends he had, how immersed he was, to publicly say, what I've learned about black culture is this and this is what I do not like. This is what happens when, look, we all have friends of differing ethnicities, white friends, black friends, really close friends to us, really close people to us. People we talk to all the time

we love. But when someone buys or feels like they've carved out a chunk of your cultural market space, right? When someone feels like they've moved into your cultural

house, they will try to redecorate that bitch. They will get in there and say, okay, I don't like this about the drapes. Let me change this wall. knock this wall down so you can have more space. There's an authority that he's speaking with right there.

One of the authorities that he's speaking with is because he feels like he knows enough about black culture to comment on whether or not we have an intracultural problem with hate. Number two, his privilege is that he feels like his cultural, observation is important enough to literally say that on the most important black platform in America. He's talking to all of black people. When you go on the breakfast club, you're talking to black people. That's the most important thing about the breakfast club. The most important thing about the breakfast club, I've said it before, is whenever you get someone on there, be it a politician,

being whomever, if they think they're talking to black America. They feel that they are. It's the biggest black platform that's out there. So watching the way they act when they think they're talking to black America is very important to me. Michael Rubin thought he was talking to Black America and he admonished Black America. I know that y'all like partying with Michael Rubin and I know that y'all like hanging out

with them and I know it's all gravy and that shit is all dope. It really is beautiful. and he's done a lot for a lot of people. You can't be comfortable with that. And Meek came out, Meek said he shouldn't have said that out loud. He shouldn't, it's not that he shouldn't have said that out loud. Is that how he quoted it?

It's not that he shouldn't have that out loud. He shouldn't have that thought in his mind. Who's ever talking to Michael Rubin and telling Michael Rubin the problem with black people or whoever's, I guarantee you he heard that from somebody. Whoever's talking to him, telling him the issue with black people,

people, that's going to devalue his opinion of an entire culture. It's 40 million people, 40 million black people. You're going to tell me, like, we always talk about how we're not a monolith in thought or an action. You're going to tell me what you think our problem is. Yo, I worked at TMZ for years. Harvey Levin was a Jewish guy, is a Jewish guy. I never saw Harvey say, don't do this story on somebody because they're Jewish.

I've never seen that. Troops are dangerous. The tropes about Jewish people that exist, that people might want to say that they're powerful, that they stick together, that all of those things, they're dangerous because they victimize Jewish people and they make them look as if something that has to be fought rather than has to be understood.

That trope that black people are their own worst enemy it's dangerous because it divorces America from the responsibility of how they've treated and what they've done to black people. That trope is dangerous because it makes it seem as if, well, it doesn't matter what happens, whatever you give to them, they're going to tear it up. He don't have that to say. That's not his place to say that, man. And every time we get to this with one of these people, one of these white dudes that y'all put up on a pedestal, and make it seem like he's the best thing since sliced bread, and you all want to be up under him.

It always comes back to this. Stop this. Yeah. I think that there is a way to be around somebody, but not give them total access or make them feel comfortable enough to have these type of conversations. I didn't watch the whole episode for the Breakfast Club.

I would like to think that they checked him for saying this. did they? No, not real. They talked about... Well, that's another reason people feel comfortable coming on it because that wouldn't have happened here.

That wouldn't have happened on the show. If that was said on this, that was said here, like, it would have been like, wait a minute. Now, I'm not saying, we're respectful to our guests, but it's like, wait a minute,

we can't allow that to continue. What should not have happened is how it played out, which is the episode was released. There was a lot of criticism to what was said. And a lot of people were nice about it. I believe your intentions were good, but this is the problem with what you said.

And since the episode has come out and there has been a lot of backlash, Michael Rubin tweeted out. I got a phone call from one of the people I have the most respect for in the world. And they told me, while they appreciate my intention, it's not my place to speak on black culture. I get it and really appreciate the input. He goes on to say my intention was to say how important it is that we need to up lift each other, stop hate on each other, and push each other to win and always root for each other's success. My bad, much love, and appreciate the feedback. The other problem with what he did was he made it particular to us as if no other culture hates on each other except for black people.

This is very particular and specific to black culture, as if hating isn't something that happens. And he said in the second paragraph, he wanted to talk about. about how we need to lift each other up. And that's what he should have said. Instead of saying it's black people that have this problem, it's people in general that hate on each other. And it's not a cultural thing to black people, which was really disappointing to what he said.

And honestly, it should have been checked in real time. It shouldn't have had to be this whole thing. He shouldn't have had to be, someone should not have had to call him after the interview came out to let him know that it was wrong. and the way he was able to have that conversation in a room full of black people and nobody said anything, those are the same conversations he was having prior to this behind closed doors that allowed him to feel comfortable enough to come on a black platform

and do that. He knew he shouldn't have said it. He said, I probably shouldn't say that. He says, I probably shouldn't say that. I'm going to get killed for it. I'm telling you, man, you guys. So there is interesting. There, the idea that black people have some specific ill intent for one another, right?

Some specific ill intent for one another is not backed up by fact. It's not backed up by history. It is a surface level, very cosmetic thought on black culture. It's a trope. It's bullshit. I've been to black communities. I've lived in black communities my entire life. I didn't see my mama borrow eggs from people.

I didn't see people come over and borrow one egg. I didn't see people take other people's children in. I didn't see people. I'm not talking about no celebrity shit on fucking Twitter. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people all huddled together and using their bodies for warmth. I'm talking about taking a neighbor's kid

after mama and gone to jail. I've been there. I've seen there. I'm talking about South Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I've seen people that made it because all they had was each other. I've been right there. I've seen dudes like huddle together and form little crews and share everything, share underwear, share it.

I've seen it. It's just a lie. If you're talking about in cracking jokes on celebrities, if you're talking about all of that, we like to have a little fun. But all of this other stuff, that competition exists across the board. at those levels. And I'm certainly about to let, not about to let this billionaire who is trying to buy little chunks of cool

enough to the point to where he can have an opinion on black, it's just, I don't know, y'all, y'all cool with that? Like, okay. I guess I won't be invited to anymore. It's a wrap for me. mean what? Look, he's not Lex Luther. He just over his skis a little bit. He's not

like he's, I'm not, I'm not trying to kick him in his ass. He's not fucking, it's not like the nigga became David Duke. I'm just saying like, like fucking relax. What you want? It's, well, here's the thing. It's because it's not particular to him. It's not the first time it's been done. So it's like a part of a bigger issue when people who are not black feel comfortable enough to speak, to tell us about ourselves. And a lot of times, we just let us live. He

wants to be cool. He collect niggas like Pokemon. But like they there's no there's no, it's no, there's no issue. Like he's not the first or the last. I'm sure Michael Rubin

I'm sure his heart is in the right place on so many different issues. For sure. I'm sure he is. But the fuck, get the fuck out of here bro. The fuck you, look. Who are you talking to? What? By the way,

You guys, I've been there before. I fought these battles from inside of TMZ. I fought these battles from wherever. One thing you're not going to say about me. I fought these battles from it and everything. What are y'all doing? Like what? What are you talking about?

No, you don't know what you're talking about. You can't speak with any authority on that shit to me. I'm not going to do that to you. I'm not going to do that to you. Same. Why are you going to do it to me? It's this latent feeling of American ownership. over black culture, black thought, and the structures of who we are that you can just talk to.

You can't do that with nobody. But we got to call it out when it happens. If you don't check it, it continues. I'm sorry. You got to call it out when it happens. By the way, hearing other people talk, because I have heard other people talk about this, I've heard that same trope about all other cultures. I've heard my Italian friends going,

well, all we do from around here is tear each other down. And I've heard, it's just like, you know, they off code for telling me, I don't want to know how y'all tell you. I'm fucking with y'all, man. Let's go to Sabarro. Okay. Not Sabaros.

I fuck with Sabarro. I do, too, but I don't think that that's what they would claim. Hey, let's borrow. Hey. Rachel, you got an interview coming up. I got an interview, you guys, it is a treat. We're closing out the show, just as we should. You know, we like to make you, we like to feel smarter on this show.

We like to make you guys feel that same way and nobody better to do that than Stacey Abrams. So here's the interview right now. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

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Order now at order.orgot sweetgreen.com. She is an attorney, voting rights activist, a New York Times bestselling author, a political leader. The list goes on and on. We will be here all day if I name every single accomplishment that she has. And now she's a podcaster of the new podcast, Assembly Required, with Stacey Abrams, who is our guest today. Thank you so much for joining us on Higher Learning. Welcome back.

We're so happy to have you. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate. Yes, yes. So let's get right into it because you do so much, which is why I could go on and on and on about you. And by the way, thank you for all that you do. But I want to know why this podcast, why now, and what can we expect from?

I have been interested for a very long time in deconstructing problems. That's my thing. And when people think about the different ways I enter the world, some say, you know, pick a lane like I did. It's called a highway. And it's because for me, the point is how do we move forward? How do we make progress? us and we can't just pick one thing to do because the challenges we face cut across issues, cut across the way our lives are lived. And one of the best ways to tackle problems is to not get

overwhelmed by the sheer size of what we face. It's instead understand the problem and then understand the pieces, break it down, figure out which piece you can do something about and then go find some friends because you can't do all of it yourself. We can't do everything everywhere all at once. But if we crowdsource it, if I take my piece and you take your piece and I know what you're working on and you know what I'm working on and we also know that we need to find five more people because there's a lot left, that's how to get things done. And for me, the podcast is an opportunity, especially in this moment, to take these big, glaring and sometimes overwhelming challenges that feel like they are consuming our lives and break it down. and say, look, yeah, it's big. It's going to take a while. But it's also possible. It's possible to make change. It's possible to make progress. It's possible to chip away. And for those who think that chipping away isn't fast enough, I point you to the Grand Canyon. Oh, wow. Well, you have a track record of being patient, doing the work, boots on the ground, and then having the results as well. So there's nobody better to lead a podcast. like this. And I've told you this before. When you

has a documentary, I was like, this is something that should be in classrooms. So I love that you are teaching us once again with questions that we have where we don't really know where to go. And I also love that you make this first episode, which drops today, by the way, you guys, on Crooked Media. It's a family affair

at first. And you bring in faith who we get to meet. And I love this because it's a voice that a lot of our listeners have. She says a lot of things that a lot of, that we're thinking about, and you talk about this problem. I know there are a lot of problems, but what would you, and you admit that on the podcast, but what would you say is the biggest problem that we are facing right now as we're leading into this election? So I refuse to

give one problem. Okay, okay. But here's why, because it's complicated. And, you know, that's also explaining, you know, it's an explanation for a lot of relationships, too. But the concern I have with picking one problem is that we devalue the concerns that others have. We all enter this world in different ways. And the reason I was excited to have faith on the first episode, in fact, insisted on it, is that she's an 18-year-old who's curious, who is about to start college, who has just registered to vote. And she lives with me. She hears about this all the time and is filled with questions. And when we think that we're only allowed one question, we're only allowed to tackle one problem, we sometimes will exempt ourselves from participation

because if we can't see how our problem is being solved, then maybe it's not our responsibility. And so instead, I want to talk about structural issues. I want to talk about how one thing can be proxy for something else. So in this case, we're talking about how do we win elections, how do we determine who's in charge of our country, the electoral college is the problem because it doesn't let the people decide. It doesn't let the popular vote tell us who we are and what we want. We can't fix the electoral college. Not now. Not immediately. It's constitutional. So instead, I say, okay, what are the things we can do that feel accessible, that feel imaginative, and that start to address the legitimacy of our concerns and the reality of where we are.

I love that you're talking about the electoral college because, and just like the whole unequal distribution of power, because I feel like that's in a few branches of our government. And I like that we have faith's input because she is a younger voter who has questions about these antiquated rules, these laws that exist. And even, I mean, I'm a millennial and even I do. And there's something that you talk about. And I don't want to get too into the podcast, but you guys really have to hear this first episode.

It's so good. But there was the, I was not familiar with the term ranked choice voting. And I know that it's becoming more popular. And I know that it's a path to election reform. And I know you bring on a guest to discuss it even more. But if you can just speak to it just a little bit. Absolutely. The challenge with the electoral college is first and foremost,

and most fundamentally, it is racist. It was designed to deny the humanity of enslaved persons, but get the benefit of their presence. So the Electoral College came about because Southerners did not want to have to give Black people humanity or the right to vote, but they didn't want to lose out because there were so many enslaved persons in the South. When that's where you begin, everything else follows not only from the infrastructure of the Electoral College, but the intent, which is to devalue and to silence certain opinions.

And so instead, you end up with this system of electing the leader of our nation that privileges you based on geography and based on other identities that people like to ignore. So, range choice voting says, okay, we see you, but we're going to tweak the system. instead of us having to pick between one or the other, we're going to tell you what we actually want by telling you in order of preference what we need. And if the one we want doesn't work, you don't get to win simply because you overwhelmed the system

with your number and your intentions. My second choice then moves up the rank. And it encourages us to have more variety in what we discuss, more variety in who stands for office, and it encourages us to show up because we know that if our person doesn't win, the next person we like might get it. And we have more shots, we have more bites of the apple, more shots at the hoop. And that gives us the ability and I think the engagement that says it's worth showing up

because I might not get everything I want, but I might do enough to get the next thing I like. I mean, this sounds like democracy to me, way more than the electoral college. Way more. And it also, I feel like addresses what a lot of people feel, and particularly young voters, who are disengaged, that their vote doesn't matter, that it doesn't hold weight. Is that what you see in talking to faith and people is similarly situated as her, with her, in regards to the biggest concern facing young voters as they're moving into this election? And how do you give them that hope moving forward? Young voters are the most articulate about it, but this is a, a perennial problem, not just a millennial problem.

It is evident in Gen X, in the boomers, in the silent generation. We have always been anxious about how little our voices matter. And there are ways to solve for that. Either you take over or you sit it out. No one's going to play a game when they know there's no chance of winning. And for me, the goal is, especially for this younger generation, because combined with the millennials, you guys could run the world, I want there to be a sense of ownership and a sense that you can make things better.

You can change the system. Faith is a perfect proxy for it, but she speaks on behalf of so many who have grown up in a moment with absolute information and ineffective power, meaning you can tell what's wrong, you can prove it because you guys have the internet. We had it, you know, I didn't have the internet until I was older. But you also see in real time just how little impact that knowledge can have. That when Sandy Hook happened, we could not get our Congress to take action. And then the litany of school shootings never translated into a political will to do better.

That in a moment where housing is a crisis, political will. won't respond. But if we can elect people who feel that they have to not just convince the folks who like them, but they've got to convince the folks they're kind of iffy about them, then you start to change what people are willing to commit to and what people are willing to get into. Younger voters will get more engaged if they know that they've got the opportunity to really pull the levers of power. But more importantly, if they know they have the right to ask the questions about how power is used. Speaking of different systems and changes and antiquated rules, I'm sure you will do an

episode on this, but I am curious to your thoughts of the Supreme Court. I mean, being an attorney, I used to practice, we used to hold the court in such high regard, and now it's not the same. It's just simply but it's just not the same. Would you like to see changes? And I guess I'm speaking in the number of seats when it comes. comes to the Supreme Court, obviously changes as to who's, you know, occupying. Let's remember. And yes, I do plan to talk about this, but just to set the stage. And this goes

back to the election. One of the critical reasons I'm going to be promoting my candidate, Vice President Kamala Harris, is that we need someone in that office who can make certain if we have an opportunity that we can change the structure of the court. We've got to remember that this is cyclical. We have had horrific, horrendous Supreme Court justices who abandon and abdicate moral responsibility before. That's how we got Plessy versus Ferguson. That's how we got dread stopped. We have had this happen before. We have to survive it to get to the other side. And then we have to use the power of being voters to change the narrative. One of the ways is to increase the number on the court, which we've done before. It's to change how the court is appointed, which we've done before.

There is nothing that is under consideration that has not been done before. We just don't remember it because we get used to what we have. And part of the goal of the podcast, if simply required, is to remind us, you know, what's the problem? Why is it a problem? And then what can we do to start solving it? And the Supreme Court is a perfect example. Because we can actually start to have an impact. They are, yes, given a permanent seat, but we have the ability to do.

change how they get there, what they can do while they're there. And there are actual fantastic ideas that can be accomplished in real time without changing the Constitution. The podcast is Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. The first episode premiered today. You guys got to check it out. It's really fantastic. You mentioned Vice President Kamala Harris. You spoke at the rally in Georgia. And to watch Watch it was electrifying. I can't even imagine what it was like to be there. You walk on the stage.

They're screaming Stacey, Stacey, Stacey. Your city, your state adores you, by the way. You have to redirect them to start chanting Kamala. And I am curious for you, you know, you've dedicated your life to being such a freedom fighter. Is the energy that you're feeling, the momentum that we're getting, is this something that's reminiscent from the past? or does this feel like something new to you?

Yes. So it's both. Because we have to remember, part of the energy we feel is new. It is the product of there being something new. I am a staunch Biden supporter. I support him. I support him.

But there is a, there's an on-wee that sets in when you're watching the same show over and over again. And essentially, you know, this has been going on for eight years. We had Trump and Hillary, then we had Trump and Biden, then we had Biden and Trump and Trump. And so for a lot of people, there is just the belief that there is something new possible, and that energy is real and that energy is embodied in Vice President Harris. There's also just the reality that we have a chance to prove as a nation that we are who we say we are.

Identity matters. I articulate this. I argue this. I look askance at those who would say, oh, this is identity politics. It's all identity politics. When you say that you're going after soccer moms or rural voters, when you identify the contours of who you're talking to, Republican, Democrat. Those are identities. So yes, it matters that we have a woman. Yes, it matters that we have an African-American woman. Yes, it matters that we have an Indian American woman. Yes, it matters that we have a Democrat. Yes, it matters. It all matters because there are lived experiences that come with every single identity, whether we like those experiences or not. And the energy we are feeling is a direct result of people seeing that new identities,

can emerge and can have power and can have access and can be competitive. And so when I hear the denigration of diversity, equity, and inclusion, what I hear is we don't like competition. We don't like the fact that this country is doing what it said it was supposed to do, which is create, believe in diversity is all people, equity, is access to opportunity, and inclusion is a pathway to the American dream. And we're watching that pathway widen in real time. Absolutely. What do you think are going to be some of the biggest hurdles for the Harris Walls campaign? And maybe what would you like to see from them? Well, one of the episodes coming up on Assembly Required is disinformation. That is going to be one of the most aggressive tactics used because it is so hard to understand, to combat. and we have so much information coming at us,

the ability to sift through that information is a weakness in our politics today. We've already seen it happen. We've seen, you know, a deep fake of a photograph. We have heard disinformation about Governor Walls. We've seen it in real time and it's going to be on, you know, exponentially, it's going to be exponentially exploding as we get deeper into this campaign. And so one of the tools that I want us to have is how do we understand what disinformation, misinformation, malinformation looks like, how do we sift through it,

and then how do we explain it to somebody without repeating the lie, especially when the lie is coming from someone we love and have to have dinner with on Thursday. So one of the things I wanted to think about is that challenge. we also have to learn how to understand policy proposals in real time, especially when it's done through jargon. Tariffs are taxes. So when we hear that they're going to impose new tariffs, that's what Trump is talking about. But language matters.

And so I want us to understand that the challenge of this election is going to be not giving in to the immediacy of an attack and doing the work of understanding what it means for us in our real lives. just a couple of more questions. You've been so gracious with your time, and I really could just keep picking your brains. But that's what the podcast is for, guys, assembly required with Stacey Abrams. And you've already given us a little teaser

of what's to come on the podcast, and we're very excited about that. But as you were just talking and made me think of, you know, we talked a bit about it on our podcast of the party, the Democrat Party as a whole. And what they need to do to make sure they stay together, and they're unified. Do you feel like, or what do you think needs to happen because there does seem to be a little between like progressives and the more moderate? Like, what do they need to do to come together more to have a

unified message and make sure that it's Vice President Kamala Harris sitting in that presidential seat? Well, ultimately, we're doing a pretty good job. Part of my hesitation. In fact, I wrote an op-ed about this. My hesitation in part in the idea of changing the nominee was that we are not always great in my political party with chaos. And in the absence of a structured system that is not the primary system to replace President Biden, I was deeply concerned about how we would do this. Would we coalesce? Would we finance? Would we do the work? necessary to make such a rapid change when given that we had a stalwart and a proven warrior who was leading our ticket. I applaud the president for deciding that he didn't want to be a distraction. But I'm also grateful that we as a party coalesced so quickly and that we've

stayed together. So there was a sugar high right after this was announced. But what we've seen since and has been a sustained engagement. We have the right to ask questions. We have the right to differ and disagree about policy. We're not only Americans, we're humans. But what we have to believe is that having the right leadership gives us the space to have these debates, gives us the opportunity to achieve the outcomes we want. And so far, so incredibly good.

The contrast between Vice President Harris and Governor Wall compared to former President Trump and Senator Bans could not be more stark. You have two men who have spent the entirety of this moment whining about the fact that there was a moment to have, whining about who gets to participate, whining about why they have to fight so hard. And you've got Vice President Harris and Governor Walls who are in there as happy warriors saying, we're going to not fight against them. We are fighting for you. And in the moment politicians decide to fight for

the people, that is when we get the good that we deserve. Yeah, it's really interesting to see Trump and Bant scramble to try to find something to attack Harrison Walls with. They seem to be going after the low-hanging

fruit, don't really have a strategy. And it's kind of fun to watch. I mean, look, we're fighting this here in Georgia now, but when you're when your biggest attack against Governor Walls is that he's feeding children who are hungry. I mean, we're still trying to get the governor of Georgia

to agree that he should accept the money necessary to feed hungry children next year. There's free money and he won't take it even though we've already paid our taxes to pay for it. Governor Walls, when your most harsh, when your harshest attack and your most staleant critique is that he cares about children and wants them to have the best lives possible,

I say let's fight that every day. Yeah. Bring it on. Absolutely. There's been some criticism, of course, from the other side in regards to the fact that Vice President Kamala Harris has not spoken directly to the media, but yet she's traveling all across the country, campaigning. We're hearing from her in a way that we never have before, which is also really exciting

to watch. Do you think it's a big deal that she's not addressing? the media head on because they don't seem to be worried about it at all. I don't think the question is the right question. Is she talking to the people? Is she telling them what they need to know? Is she engaging citizens and laying out her proposals and explaining what she is going to do as the next press? The answer is absolutely unequivocally yes.

Is she talking to the press? Yes. Is she doing it the way they want? Not yet. Not yet. She's been the nominee for less than a month. She's about to go into the convention. And I assure you there will be multiple opportunities.

But the pace of change does not always accommodate the expectations and desires of others. And so I say not yet, but it's coming soon. It's coming soon. We will end on that note. I love the way that you just put a period right after it. you're always working on something new. Tell us what you're working on next. Tell us where we can follow you, support you,

and obviously subscribe and like the podcast. Thank you. Well, of course, it's simply required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. Please go to our website, sign up, tell everyone you've ever met to subscribe. And while you're there, make sure you're not only talk about us, but talk about this fantastic podcast I'm on right now with Rachel. I'm also doing a lot of work on DEI

because there could not be a more pressing issue. And I guess going back to your question about this election, DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, it describes everything we are. All of the progress we've made from the Voting Rights Act to the Americans with Disabilities Act, those are all under attack. And if we do not protect and defend DEI,

the very infrastructure that allows full participation dissipates. And so I encourage people to go to atrnetwork.org That's the coalition of organizations I've created that are really focusing on the issues of DEI. And you can always find me at Stacey Abrams on Twitter, on Instagram, or X, I guess is what we call it now. But if you put in Stacey Abrams, you're going to find me. And I'm so eager to hear from folks, tell me what you want to know, tell me the questions that are keeping you up at night. Tell me the things that are exciting you that you want more people to know about. Because that's why I believe that there's some assembly required to get to the world we want.

As I said, you don't stop. I'm like, what does Stacey Abrams do for fun? What does she do to relax? I watch an ordinate amount of TV and I read graciously. And I will say the last thing I've got a children's book coming out in a few weeks. So hopefully I'll come back and tell you all about that. You definitely have to come back. Please let me find out you're a lover of reality TV and we will talk about that next time.

We can talk. I'm willing to be converted. Right now I'm more of a competition. show person, then I am strict reality because I like my people scripted when I'm not doing my day jobs. So, yeah. I accept the challenge. I accept the challenge.

Thank you so much for all that you do. Thank you for stopping by higher learning. We look forward to talking to you again. Thank you so much, Rachel. Take care. Rachel, when are you going to run for office? Stacey was great. I'm not going to date a politician.

I'm not going to date a politician. I'm not going to be a politician. That life is not for me. It's just not. Even in another country? I guess I've never thought about that. See? I love the way you think about this for me.

What can you see? I can see you with married to like the president of some island country. Like I can see you being the first lady of like Anguilla or. You want a free trip. You want to be able to be like, hey, we're ready to get out there. That's what you want. This is called self-serving. I don't know, maybe.

But definitely not in this country. Definitely not happen I can do that raggun shit I can do that rag on shit look See because it's for fun Why is only one Ashley only one arm is moving Do you notice that?

Yeah who's watching I was like wow What? Trying One arm Kind of Final pose Final pose

Final pose Final pose They're They didn't catch off But do not stop learning I'm Vanley Jr They've been off Since you hit the regas

I'm not Rachel Liddly. Bye guys.