Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The New York Times's Cesar Chavez Investigation, the Afroman Trial, and the Taylor Frankie Paul Controversy

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

Van and Rachel remember the life of Kiki Shepard before discussing the negotiations between the WNBA and WNPBA that led to a verbal agreement for a new CBA. Then they discuss the recent New York Times investigation into Cesar Chavez. After that, the two get into the big controversy revolving around reality star Taylor Frankie Paul, Afroman’s lawsuit, and Ray J’s most recent viral moment: defending his sister Brandy. Lastly, the two are joined by former Ringer colleague, poet, and author Jonathan Kermah to talk about his new book of poetry. (0:00) Intro (1:04) Midnight Boys recast (7:48) The life of Kiki Shepard (13:21) WNBA and WNPBA align on key elements of a new CBA (26:58) Cesar Chavez accused of sexual abuse (51:52) Taylor Frankie Paul under fire (1:16:34) Afroman lawsuit (1:32:00) Ray J defends Brandy (1:44:59) Jonathan Kermah Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How I'm learning is on. Is Ivan Lathan Jr.?

And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Okay, before we get into anything surrounding the podcast today, we have Jonathan Kermen on the podcast today. Jonathan Little Spidey Kerma is going to be on here a little bit later. You can hear him laughing at the background. He has a new book out. And we're going to be talking about his new book of poetry,

his career, everything that Kerm has got going on. And it's very important what Kerm is doing. he is immensely talented. He has self-published his own book of poetry, betting on himself and continuing to build his career. And as he builds that career, higher learning will be in full support of our brother, Jonathan Kerman. Every single time.

We cast him as Yoda. Did you see this? The Midnight Boys recast? This is a Midnight Boys thing? Yeah. You didn't hear about... What were you casting for? We were recasting Star Wars.

Did you hear about what happened with the Midnight Boys, by the way? Are y'all okay? So this is what happened. So this is the funniest thing in the world. The Midnight Boys doing exercise. I don't know if you've seen this before. Where we will take a traditionally white property, predominantly white, and then we'll recast it with all black people.

Like we did a recast and it was Lord of the Rings with an all-black cast and a black director set in a black place. We did a recast where it was Star Wars. all black cast, black director, black screenwriter, set in a black place. For the Oscars, we decided to do a swap recast, but it was sinners. Okay.

So we recasted sinners with white people. And we recasted the vampires and sinners as black people. Who were they? Okay, so I think the remick was Lakeith Stanfield. That's good. Excellent casting. Right. That's an excellent.

Remick was Lakeith Stanfield. Perlene was Sabrina Carpenter. Okay. See? Okay. I like it. Josh O'Connell was smoking stack. I think Sarah Snook from Succession.

She was Annie. Okay. Right. So we went down the list. Now, we missed a couple of them. We had Tom Holland's preacher boy. I couldn't stand that casting, but I got outvoted by P.P. productions. Here's the thing. We put the graphic out and said, here's the Midnight Boys recast.

And it came out the Friday before the Oscars. People thought that this recast, because they saw the ringer on it, they thought they're like Bill and Sean Fennessee and CR and all that. They thought that they had done that. They didn't realize that. Y'all set them up. We didn't. We didn't realize. They didn't realize that the Midnight Boys are black podcast. that we do these recasts and we did one for sinners. So the shit went crazy with everybody's being super fucking mad in the whole deal. Like I completely-

Did y'all take it down? No. I completely made up a new mythology. Why the vampires are attacking. The whole nine, it's all in the latest midnight, or actually two Midnight Boys, maybe three Midnight Boys podcast ago. But it was very funny.

Jomi was getting antsy because people were so mad about it. and the midnight boys they be acting like they're not with the smoke. Like they, I'm used to that. They got to get used to it. But it was very funny that that happened.

Go check that out. Okay, I'm looking at it now. I'm looking at it now. Look at the, on Twitter, if you look on Twitter, I think it's got like four million impressions. People are very upset like, this is what the ringer does

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bringing up old shit that people did and stuff like that. It's very funny. All right, so we have Kermel. The vampire, Bert, Bert is Kid Cuddy, Joan is Cocoa. Yeah. The vampires are Kid Cuddy and Coco Jones that are Whitremic.

Cornbread is played by John Sina. Delta Slim. This is a fantastic cast. Delta Slim, Nicholas Cage. I'm with you on Sammy, though. Hey, put the graphic up. Mary and Sammy. Mary and Sammy.

I don't know about this, either one. So who do we have is Mary? We had Chase Infinity. You have Chase Infinity. Yeah, well, you have to have, You need a biracial there. Because, like, in that situation, our vampires are actually,

our vampires became vampires in our movie because they were escaped enslaved people that were running out of food. And when they were running out of food, an entity came to them and told them that they would never need to eat again. They could feed on something else, blood, and make them superhuman

and they accepted that. So now they go around, feeding on white people. That's what our vampires do. They feed on white people and take over white people that have taken over black towns and gentrified them.

They feed on them. And so that's what our Sinners movie is about. It's a very interesting movie. Who did you cast a Sammy? Who was my Sammy? I was going unknown. There's a guy named Somber.

He's like a young white singer. You think Somber's unknown? To me, he was. was unknown. Somber was nominated for a Grammy for best new artist. Let me tell you something right now. I went to that best new... I was like, are we talking about the same guy?

I went to that best new artist party. Besides Cat's Face, I didn't know any of them people that was there. Oh, I knew Leon. I knew Leon, but I didn't know none of them people. I don't, that is the rate... See, we got to play to your strengths as well. Because that's what, see, all of them young white stars that you'd be knowing about, like somber?

I don't know him. I know Sumber because he was nominated for a Grammy. I know Lola because she was nominated and I did see her performing Cannes this summer. She's a viral hit on TikTok, but I cannot believe you said this unknown. Unknown Somba. Come on, Unc.

This is where you are. I'm unc. I don't know. I acknowledge, like, I looked at Somba. I was like, oh, the problem with Somba is he's like six, five or something like that. And Jomi and them were like, he can't be little preempties.

Preacher Boy towering over everyone. It was hard to cast that role, which also tells you... Why couldn't it be like Bieber? He's fucking 30 years old, and he looks like he's 45. He looks young. Justin Bieber looks young? We talked about this on the podcast. He looks 45.

Justin Bieber looks like he rips 2,000 Marlboro Reds a day. Like, it's been some tough living. Shout out to him. I love him. But, like, you can't... He's too. You had to get someone. You had to get, like, the white version of Miles.

and the casting of Miles was, it's not a flashy fan casting because the casting of Miles was so ingenious. You got to go find somebody that is that talented because you got to sing those songs, you got to deliver that, and also is around that age, and it's not that many people.

So shout out to Ryan and them and everybody that was able to go out and get Miles cast, even though they did not win casting at the Oscars, which they should have. Okay. So we put the graphic up every day You guys could see it

But we did that So stop going in the ringer's mentions And being like you guys trying to make It's very funny We gained an ancestor And it's somebody I felt like I've known For a very long time Kiki Shepard has passed away

It looks like our sister had a heart attack For me growing up Watching Showtime at the Apollo every single week when it came on was fantastic. It was just an essential piece of black culture. Different hosts that they've had up there. Obviously, Steve Harvey had a very long run as the host of Showtime at the Apollo. But that to me was, the show was interesting to me because it was one of the first things

entities that connected me to black culture existing somewhere else, like what they have going on in Harlem and not just black people who eat the food that I eat, who worship in the way that I worship, but how are you black in New York? Like, then how are you black in Chicago? Then how are you black in Atlanta? Like, what are the customs of being black where you are from that have transcended black culture and become these staples like the Apollo Theater has and the showtime at the Apollo talent show has. So like for me, watching Kiki Shepard that entire time, she was one of the biggest stars in the world for me. So life well lived. And I hope she enjoys being one of our ancestors. Yeah, I mean, Kiki Shepard, like you, I watched Showtime at the Apollo. We watched

it as a family like every Saturday night. We were tuned in. We were watching. We loved it. And as a young black girl to see Kiki Shepard be, well, she's just a staple period, right? Like she's, she was there. The host may have changed, but Kiki Shepard was always there. And just to be a young black girl and see like what she was going to wear, how she was going to look was just such a moment that you got every Saturday to. So that was something just that was really nice to see with Showtime at the Apollo, meaning what it did for the community. you talk about, which is interesting, how it connected you to culture, black culture outside of where you're from. It just, for me, connected me to black culture, just period. You know, I just loved watching it so much because, and I'll tell you, because our Saturday night routine of what, you know how like you had TGIF on Fridays.

On Saturday, you had Dr. Quinn Medicine woman. I think he was touched by an angel, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, or those are interchained, Walker, Texas Ranger, and his showtime at the Apollo. Boy. And like, so like, why? What? So you, I'm telling you, this is rage-coded. You was living a one-nigger night on TV.

Only on Saturday. Until showtime at the Apollo came on, though. That was the one nigger. His showtime. One nigger. I'm trying to figure about of all of those shows, which ones I fuck with the most. Showtime at the Apollo watch all. Probably Walker, Texas Ranger.

Remember the lady in the front row of, Showtime at the Apollo. Oh, come on. How could you forget with the Jerry Curl Afro and the glasses? She was always reaching out. Didn't matter who. I remember one time.

I remember a new edition was up there. I thought she was going to fucking lose it. What's our sister's name, man? If you know, put it in the comments. What's all? She was a staple shoot. Every week. She was a showtime at the Apollo

celebrity more than anyone. I never knew her name. Was she Sandman's wife? I feel like that was a rumor, but I don't know if that was actually. I don't know if that was actually. You were saying man's wife. Never heard that.

I had heard that rumor. She had never heard. Because it was like, how does she have this front row seat every single week for years? She was a staple, man. Bobby Brown was up there going crazy. Some of the iconic performances at Showtime at the Apollo, you different guys up there doing that thing, ladies up there doing that thing, Mary Jay Blige, all of these different people that would come there.

Not how I think of, do I remember Mary Jay being there? So remember everyone coming up. I was there. Yeah. H-town, Drew Hill. Everybody. Everyone. And it's also important.

You know, I was actually at the Apollo. I think last year, it's why it's important to keep traditions like that going to where recipes are not lost because these are things that ground our culture and deepen our understanding of each other. You know, I'm looking at the Apollo theater. It's like important, man. All of this stuff is important. So I hope that Kiki.

watches over us in her new role as an ancestor and that she feels fulfilled with her time in this plane. And I hope she knows what she meant to us. And like outside of the Apollo, she also was very involved in sickle cell research and, you know, bringing awareness to that and raising money for that as well in addition to other things that she did. But I really do hope she knows what she means meant to us. It means to us. Jay did. pull up the name of the woman who famously sat in the front row at Showtime at the Apollo.

Her name was Eva May Isaac. Eva May Isaac. As the queen of the Apollo theater or the lady with the curl. The lady with the curl. Nowhere in here do I see this. She was Sandman's wife. This is some shit that you made up.

I said it was a rumor. Yeah. Said it was a rumor. All right, y'all. So we got some big news in women's sports. The WMBA and its players union have reached an agreement in principle on a new collective bargaining agreement after 17 months of negotiations avoiding any disruption to the upcoming 30th season.

This tentative deal is being called transformational as it would sharply boost salaries across the league with average pay rising into the hundreds of thousands, minimum salaries jumping into the six figures and top stars receiving around $1 million plus as a part of this meaningful share of league revenue. Uh, yeah, so the cap jumps from 1.5 million in 2025 to 7 million in 226 to supermax, supermax in sports terms. That is the max of the max that you can make goes from $250,000 a year to $1.4 million. The average salary will climb from 120,000 to 600.

And the minimum, which is also very important. in every single league that you support, make sure you're paying attention to what the minimum salary is because those are essentially the working people of the league that you can come in and make a living while you're trying to, and you're not a superstar, you're not even a really valuable rotation player. What can you play basketball for?

That goes from $66,000 to $300,000. And the revenue sharing gets a bump as well. And with the new TV deal coming in in a couple of years, the WNBA seems to be in its financial season as a sport. I mean, they're already there. The new TV deal, it's with, I guess, ESPN, NBC Universal, Amazon Prime Video, combined over the next 11 years, it's worth $2.2 billion. dollars. I mean, this is

so historic, specifically when it comes to women, athletes, and then fighting for their rights and equal payment. We've seen it with soccer. We've seen it in tennis. And just the fact that the WNBA came together, they opted out of the CBA the last year, they were able to get this done before the new season started, which is so

fantastic because players that are going to be drafted in a couple of weeks, players that are unrestricted free agents are going to be able to, it's going to have a crazy free agency, they're going to be able to renegotiate their contracts because I know that even, I guess the union was telling people and the agents were working to allow their players to be available this year in order to benefit off of potential the new CBA, which now they're going to get done. pre-season is about to start. Season starts in May. This is all so exciting.

And just really, it's just so impressive. And then I just want to say in addition to the money, also family planning and parental leave benefits is something that they were able to improve on, which is so important for women athletes. Also, like the accommodations with travel and stuff like that. There are also, there are other things that they were able to really get done to benefit women athletes. and hopefully this will be something that, you know, other leagues can look to in reference when negotiating their terms to.

The rise in the WNBA is undeniable. That's proven from them setting records for how many people have watched playoff games to even before that what women are doing in collegiate basketball. And then also this shuts down people because there was a lot of talk of how detrimental this is going to be for the WNBA if they can't get this done. and this is going to take away from momentum. And look, they were able to get it done, work together. It's amazing, and I'm so excited for them, and this makes me even more excited to watch their season coming up. I'm interested.

A work stoppage would have just detonated to me the momentum of the league. I think that goes without saying. Yeah, it also would have brought attention because the terms were so bad in the prior season. Well, I mean, look, there's no such thing as a league that doesn't suffer from a work stoppage, right? So like right now there's a situation happening in major league baseball to where the contracts in major league baseball have gotten so crazy.

The sport is actually experiencing a resurgence, but the owners want to sort of put some safeguards into what the players can ask for, right? There are interesting deals like Shohei Otani, but then you had Soto with the Mets and all of that. The contracts are out of control. The rubber is going to meet the road in Major League Baseball, probably not this season coming up, but the season after that. That is going to halt a lot of the momentum that baseball has.

Baseball is in a sort of renaissance right now. It was a sport that was on the verge of becoming a regional sport, just a sport that you only cared necessarily about your team and your region, and it wasn't necessarily a national sport to where you had fans of the Milwaukee Brewers that grew up in L.A. or you had fans of the New York Yankees that grew up in Oregon.

That's what a league really needs to sustain itself. They need nationwide brands to exist inside of their sport. Baseball was flirting with not being that. A work stoppage for baseball is going to hurt what's going on with them right now. Just as the work stoppage in baseball, ball hurt in the early 90s. What happened then was that everybody started taking drugs and turned into the Incredible Hulk and started hitting 150 home runs a year.

And then when that happened, that kind of saved the league from the PR disaster that was the strike. And the NBA, whatever sport it is, a work stoppage is going to hurt you. Specifically with the WNBA that has this type of momentum, but also this type of young zeitgeisty stars. Like if there's no league this year or there would have been no league this year how do we keep up with Caitlin,

Fee, and Angel Reese? This is how I believe they put the pressure on them and this is why it's like the WNBA is so like they really lead when it comes to this out of all the other leagues in my opinion because we've talked about them before specifically with their activism. But the unrivaled basketball league

that was started by two big stars in the league was where they paid the players more. They had better opportunities. The three-on-three league that Brianna Stewart and Nefisa Collier started was like, okay, y'all don't want to do it. We have, there are other options. And we've shown you that the other options are successful and we're doing more for the players than you are as a league with a $2.2 billion TV deal over the next 11 years.

I think that was such a powerful thing to do not just because they truly wanted it for the players but as a bargaining tool at the same time but you realize that Unrival had a tough season right? But they still did it they did it with what? Like there was a precipitous drop

in unrivaled television ratings this year like Unrival like it and I all of this stuff is in the like as far as unrivaled is concerned I don't think that unrivaled, I think Unrivaled became a sticking point insofar as some of the owners in the WNBA,

some of the brass representing the owners in the WNBA, were bristling at the fact that people were playing in Unrivaled because they want exclusivity from a lot of these players, which was a lot to ask for because you're not paying them and you want them right. Unrivaled though. But see, but that's my point. But what I'm saying is this year, unrivaled,

I don't think was actually the pressure point that it would have been if this were happening last year because unrivaled ratings fell off a cliff this year. But here's the thing. Okay, I get the point, point made. But had they not had a season, I think that people, and like they held out, it would have, unrivaled would have benefited from that.

Maybe. It's not like they didn't have a place to go. That would have been my argument. Well, what I'm saying. I guess with the unrival. And maybe it fell off too because they, this was happening. Like you said, there's the pressure from them. They were in the midst.

They've been negotiating this since last like, not since I'm sorry, since October. They've been negotiating this thing, maybe even longer than that because they opted out, I believe, in 2024. Yeah, in 2024. So who knows? We don't know. Well, I just think that there is a, there is another option, I guess is what I'm saying, that had better benefits. The unrivaled season is also over. So there wouldn't have been another unrivaled season until the next year.

But the threat of it, I guess, is what I'm saying. Like last thing I'm saying, last thing I say about this is what I want to know more than anything is how this got worked out between the women that were negotiating it. Because if you've been following this story, there was a clear schism in the intelligentsia. And these schisms in leagues and in players associations are nothing new. So anyone that goes there was a schism and a difference of opinion because these are women, no. You can go back and look at the Players Coalition when it came to, you know, Colin Kaepernick and Malcolm Jenkins and all of this. And whenever these sports people get together and start talking about what it is that they want, they want.

there are some people that are more aggressive about negotiations and some people that are more willing to go along with the status quo, the owners to try to figure it out. But what developed here in really the last two or three months was a group of players who seemed to prioritize playing the WNBA season more than anything and another group of players who wanted to completely change the financial structure that they were going to be playing under. What I'm interested to know is how they were able to get to this particular deal and what concessions had to be made on either side to get them there because the league is going to continue to grow. The league is going to, and we had somebody that was coming on,

but once she didn't come on. And hopefully we will in the future. Yeah. Once she didn't, when she didn't come on, I figured a deal was imminent because she didn't want to fuck it up. Right. Same, same, same. So hopefully we can have someone on to get some insight. I think that that's a really interesting thing that you brought up. And I would love to know as well. Yeah. So we'll see.

I got, there was a lot of inside information that I was privy to about what was specifically happening during the USA basketball stuff, women's basketball stuff that's happening right now. I think that it was serendipitous that the women's team is together right now. because when all of those forces were together, I think it crystallized the need to have a season and to find an off-ramp in these negotiations.

Interesting. I just know from stuff that I heard about how that particular group of ladies were talking and what was going on and how there was some, I guess leaning that was done in either way to get this done so that they can go ahead and have the season and now explode and claim victory from this because this is clearly a victory. What I would like to know, and I don't know,

I haven't looked at enough, just where they made any concessions here. And because this, if you look, if I'm looking at it right now, this seems like a clear, unassailable win. I think that maybe some of it is the revenue share. They probably came down on their number. they're doing 20% the NBA is 50%. So I wonder if that number was higher for them

and maybe they came down on some of that. Who knows? We don't know. We need them to tell us. But that was my first thought is I wonder if that was one of the things. But we don't know. We need someone to talk from the inside. One more thing about that.

The NBA revenue share is 50% of the gross revenue. What is the WNBA? It was of the profit which is just totally. different. The old one was of they got their revenue share was a revenue share of the profit

of the league. The NBA was a revenue share of the gross that the league makes. There's is gross now. There's just 20% of gross league and team revenue. That is a huge, huge difference. That's a huge difference. So

good for them. All right. This next story is mind-blowing and culture-shattering. There's, I mean... There's no other way to say it. Yeah. J. Yeah.

So, an investigation by the New York Times found extensive evidence that the United Farm Workers' co-founder, Cesar Chavez, groomed and sexually abused multiple girls who worked in the movement. This, including co-founder Dolores Werta, accused him of sexual abuse dating back decades. The allegations surfacing more than 30 years after Chavez's death

are forcing a major reckoning with the United Farm Workers and beyond with tributes canceled and his legacy under fresh scrutiny. So we do this podcast in a new place right now. We are in, well, Rachel's in New York. We are not like in like the middle of West Hollywood. Like we are now around the avocado. Tos and the, it's like a wellness clinic right across the street where you get an IV and you go lay down. This is West Hollywood. This is L.A. We on some L.A. shit right here. What you got. It's like,

it's not the middle of West Hollywood, by the way. Well, it's the, it's the beginning of. It's almost Hollywood. Hollywood, West Hollywood, whatever, I consider this to be West Hollywood. I get it. But this is the culture right now that we're in. But before, we would do this podcast. from Spotify at Mateo. Spotify at Mateo is as east as you could really get in L.A. before getting into East L.A. It's an area that I used to live in. If you keep going a little bit east,

you get to a major throughway in East L.A. And that street is Caesar Chavez. And the reason why that street is named that in East L.A. is because, of course, people listening to us will know that East Los Angeles has just an enormously proud Mexican-American population. It is the cultural hub in many ways of Los Angeles, and it represents the ingenuity, the contributions, the survival of Mexican-Americans in our country. city, which is the gigantic part of Los Angeles. And that area is commemorated with the name of the individual who is to me unassailably the face of Latino, but more specifically, uh, Mexican civil rights.

This exists not just here. But anywhere, there's a large Latino, Mexican population of people. It is essentially the same way you go to a neighborhood that's black, and you know that you're going to see Malcolm X. You know that you're going to see MLK streets. If you're in the Mexican area, you're going to see Cesar Chavez. You're going to see that. The New York Times, this story, these allegations,

have decimated that legacy. They've destroyed it. I legitimately cannot overstate. I cannot overstate. If you have any clue about the importance of United foreign workers of what Chavez did, this is just destructive when you read it. This is in no way.

for me to put the legacy of Chavez over the just horrific allegations and testimonies from the victims here. But this story, as much as it is a story about survival, this is going to be a story about a complete re-sintering of an entire movement that was led by this man who was this prolific predator. I don't know. I can't remember seeing something like this. So I think it's important for you to talk about his legacy because it explains why this was kept a secret for such a long time. It wasn't like it wasn't known within smaller circles that were within the union, that worked for him, that families that were close to him. it was known. And so you have to talk about the legacy

because you have to talk about why the women and I encourage everybody to go read the New York Times article about this for true understanding and to have the, so you can hear the women speak for themselves out loud for the first time and why they kept silent.

And I think that I could almost get emotional talking about it because when I was reading it, I just, the burden that they must have felt, these women, and only we get stories from a few women, but there are numerous women who were subjected to his abuse. But to hear that there was addiction, depression, families wanted to silence them, friends wanted to silence them. People didn't want to believe them because this man was so revered in the community and meant so much. much to a culture of people and did accomplish so much that they put their own abuse and feelings

and emotions to the side for the cause. I just, it, it just rocks me to know that they suffered in silence in so many ways and people knew about it and there was nothing. And they didn't do anything, you know, in order to further, because they knew that how much he meant and, and the rights and workers of these American farmers, what, what it would do to the cause. And so I just, I just, I couldn't stop thinking about that. And so that's why I say, you guys should definitely read it. Don't just listen to the things that we're saying, that we're saying. But, you know, within these accounts, you hear that he was a predator, as Van said, to young women, to adult women, to the very woman who was his partner in the fight, the woman who stood beside him,

who's still alive and at 96 years old can still recount what happened to her, how she was sexually assaulted, how she hid two pregnancies that she had for him. The way that he demeaned her, the way that she was his punching, like publicly, the way she was his punching bag, the way he would blame her for things. But she stood beside him because of the movement. She continued to work because of the movement because she felt it was bigger than her own than what she was going through personally. And it's just devastating to hear about it. and to think about, and to think about how somebody who means so much or did so much could also just be such a monster at the same time. And I know that people are trying to, and there's like

his children are quoted in some of these articles trying to get a handle, I guess, on all the, the stories that are coming out and these stories are corroborated over not just the actual accounts from these women, but from other women, from email. from documentation that was kept, the records that were kept with the organization, from bodyguards, from secretary, like there's just so much out there. There was so much information.

And it was all kept quiet. And one thing that really sticks with me is one of the women is telling her story. I think Ms. Lopez was her name. And her mom worked, because that's the thing. He would pray on these children whose families were close to them.

I mean, there's a photograph of one of the children that he assaulted, and he stood as the best man in her father's wedding. And so he was grooming them. He took advantage of them, of their fear, of their youth, because he was such a powerful man and had such a closeness to their families and their friends. And they revered him.

For these young women, he was their hero, and he used that to become a monster to them. But there's this one quote and really stuck with me. And I think that it's something that we should take away as we, you see, we do this. We revere, we have heroes. We revere human beings, whether it's man, woman, whatever, whether somebody who's a leader in the community who has done so much for a movement, a cause, who just was a mentor to you. We do this, right? And I think that this, what Ms. Lopez says is a reminder of why we shouldn't.

so that she tells her story of how he tried to make a move on her, and she shut it down. She was 19 years old. And she calls her mom, who was very involved in the union. And the mom has her own stories as well. But this Ms. Lopez turned him down. And what she says is, she calls the mom, and she says, I want to come home.

She's on the road, because a lot of this stuff would happen on the road. She's on the road with Cesar Chavez. And she says, why do you, the mom says, why do you want to come home? And she says, Caesar Chavez is just a man. And the mom immediately knew what she meant and she sent her home. And then subsequently, the mom was fired from working with Caesar Chavez because of what happened. And Ms. Lopez

says, and I quote, it makes you rethink in history all those heroes. And she goes on to say, the movement, that's the hero. And I think that that's a really important takeaway from everybody. of you cannot idolize people because they will you just never know the other side of it. And I'm not saying that every hero is a monster, but you just don't know. And instead of making the person the movement, it's the movement that is what should be the focus. That is what not the person who's the face of it, not the representative, not the mouthpiece.

It's what you're doing. and all the people coming together to make it happen. It doesn't happen just because of one person. It happens because you come together for the fight. And that really just stuck with me. And, yeah, again, I just encourage everybody to go and read that article. So there is one photo of him walking next to, you know, they're in a march, and they're walking next, he's walking next to one.

The 1,000 mile march. The 1,000 mile march. Yeah, big march, big deal. And he's walking right next to one of the young women that he abused. And you can just look at her eyes as she's doing what she thinks is her duty and walking next to him. You know, what you just said is interesting. because it's one of the things that I, one of the,

the main places that I'm halfway. I do believe in the specific importance of certain figures. I do. And I'll tell you why I do. I do because there's a shit ton of personal work that goes into this sometimes, a shit ton of bravery. There are certain people who, for whatever reason, they're tenacious,

their focus, they're talented, they're able to do things that, from a talent perspective, that maybe other people aren't able to do. Like if you listen to someone speak, not everybody could have delivered the I have a dream speech. It's just a fact.

Not everyone could have done it. Like, that is true. So a lot of times, history is about these gigantic moments and about individuals who are able to meet these moments because of a lot of different things that have happened. I guess the reason why I'm saying that is because while losing somebody like that, and we're going to lose more people.

I want everybody to brace for it. We're going to lose more people. A lot of these street names in the coming years are going to get torn down. We're in a different moment than we used to be. The moment that we were in before, this was very normal. It was very normal to put your personal dignity to the side for what you believed was the dignity of everybody that looked like you.

Particularly if you were a woman. Particularly if you were a woman. If you were a woman inside of these movements where you're dealing with a serpent, a serpent, certain type of man. And that type of man is a man that knows he's doing good. The more that you know you're doing good, the more that you know that you are righteous, the more you can abuse the people in direct proximity to you sometimes because your goal becomes more important in your behavior and your importance. No one, nobody, not anybody that you guys look up to is a beyond becoming so self-important that they become a demon.

Look at people in the way that they respond to your criticism of them, to you giving them some tighten up. And then judge whether or not those types of people actually want to be with you or over you. Completely different thing. Whether or not those people want to exist in safety and have somebody be able to say, what you're doing is wrong, or whether or not they think they're sitting here to do. deliver you and you are so lucky and blessed to bask in the glow of the fact that they are here.

The work that we should be asking from the people who we do reveal who are in those situations, the work that we should ask them to do, part of that work has to be internal. It has to be to continuously look at yourself as a person, as a man, as a woman. The work has to continuously be, hey, it's just me in the mirror. It's just me and my son, me and my daughter, me and my neighbor, me and my wife, me and the person out. It has to continuously be that. Because if not, you become a thing.

You become a holiday. You become a street sign. This is before you die. You become a brand. You become a corporation. You become something with no feelings that doesn't understand how you're hurting people. That's the work. The work that y'all do sometimes.

when y'all say hey what you're doing is fucked up sometimes you do it and it's misguided it's wrongheaded but it's always interesting to see to me how these people respond to criticism how they respond to being told what they're doing is hurting someone whether or not they even care because in this entire situation there was a point that this guy got to to where he thought what he was doing was part of the perks of being who he was. Yeah. And it was going to happen to someone. This was entitlement.

This was a deep commodification of the female bodies around him. And there wasn't any conversation about it. Everybody was like everybody had, and think about the position that you're in. Everybody had their human rights. their human rights to think of. And if he falls, while he's doing all of this, they think we're giving the government a win.

They think we're giving the police a win. They think we're giving white supremacy a win. We don't get to win as women or as people. Because if he falls, every single thing that's swirling around becomes true. Our movement stops. what a profound burden.

What a profound burden. So, you know, like, we know important people. We know people who seek to be important. And I'm not going to act like those people aren't important. A lot of them. A lot of, the activist brain is different. If you know that, like, think about when somebody wakes up in the morning and they think about, They're thinking about stopping police violence at like 6.45 in the morning.

It's the first thing they think about. They go throughout their whole day. They think about it. They devote time to it. They write about it. Like they're on this every single day. It takes a certain type of person to be into that. And then it takes a certain type of person to be great at it.

But it doesn't take a certain type of person to be human. And that's the biggest part of community. Like I enjoy, I don't enjoy the rest. posting pictures of my mom, I'm never going to be okay with it. But I do enjoy a little tighten up. Like, I enjoy it. Like, I enjoy the, hey, I enjoy that. I could bristle and I could respond, but I'm going to go think after a while.

I just hope that we continue to have these conversations both right now and about our figures historically because if we really want to get into our bag deep, this is not. not the exception. This is much closer to the rule. I know. And the women pretty much say that. They pretty much say it. I agree with you.

I just want to make a quick distinction that important, yes. Idolize, no. There's a line that gets crossed. What's the line? What do you think? What do you mean? Well, I'm just saying, I mean, I guess

it depends on each situation, but when you get to the point of idolizing somebody, then they're almost, they almost become untouchable. They become godlike. And so I, and that's what I felt like happened here. They, these people revered and not just revered, they idolized him. So I think people, you're absolutely right, are important to causes, to movements. That is true. And I'm not taking that away from them. But when it gets to the point of idolization, it becomes problematic. Now, my knee jerk to that is to bring up Jesus Christ. And let me tell you why.

Let me tell you why my knee jerk to that is to bring up the Jesus Christ, to bring up Jesus Christ. Like, there are a bunch of people, like living right now, that think that, and they truly believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. That he's the son of God that exists eternally, that God's his only begotten son to pay for the God. the sins of the world and that the fact that that is truth

in eternity, an eternal truth, means that it's okay to idolize him. To be Christ-like all of its good. Yes, because they believe he's a God. Because they believe he's a God. But then there are billions of people who don't believe that. That's not what they believe.

There's billions of people who look at him as being idolized in the same way that Marcus Aurelius, the father of stoicism, Plato, Ersado, whomever the historical figure is that came along and before they got here, things were one way and after they left, things were a completely different way. I don't think that anyone should be idolized, obviously, like it, but I don't think that we can help it. I don't.

Oh, I'm not going to do it. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, I think it's, I'm not going to disagree with that. But I'm still going to say, try to fight against it. I agree with you. I just don't think it should happen. I agree.

We, we, I don't think, yeah, we can't help it at times. These things are, with these people that, to Rachel's point, that achieve this status that is beyond, what human beings normally achieve, it just gets difficult. It's tough. It's hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. Because they feel chosen, right?

Like, when you see somebody do something like that, you're like they're the one. They feel like they were chosen, that they were special because not to your point, not everybody can make the, I have a dream speech. Not everybody could corral people to march a thousand miles. They feel chosen. And because they feel chosen,

you just think that they're incapable of being evil. So, and clearly, history has shown, that ain't true. No, it hasn't. And, you know, once again, pick up, if you have the time and the wherewithal, try to do a little scholarship on that person that, you know, you really think is, you really think is a deity. Be it Gandhi, be it like any of these people. But I'm like I had heard about this earlier on.

You know, I had done when I was first out here, done some a little organizing work with some of our Mexican-American brothers and sisters. And this is, is truly, truly destructive. I cannot imagine what the women went through all of them years, like legitimately being violated by a sociocultural deity, like, in their community. While watching the world praise him.

The prison. And having to engage in that praise themselves, having to go along with it and do the whole deal. I cannot fucking believe I was reading that. And that's the thing that I'm. That's the thing that I'm struggling with. Of all the shit that over these years I've been privy to and I've seen and I've known, I was still reading that, not believing what I was reading.

It's like, is fucking everybody? It's like, who is not, like, deeply, deeply disturbed from a rapist abuse? Like, um, all right, well, we got to, let's take a break. Let's take a break. Let's take a break. Let's take a break. Okay. Because Rachel has used the bathroom anyway.

I can tell. I can tell. I can look at you and tell now. We've been doing this long enough. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

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Services not available in all areas. Let's take a break. Let's reset and let's come back on the other side of it. Jay, let's, you know what? Let's skip. Let's go to, you know what? No, Rachel, no. No, Rachel, let's, I don't know anything about this.

This next one. Cinebond Yeah So a major sponsorship Shakeup is hitting the Bachelorette as Cinebon has officially cut ties with the show and its star Taylor Frankie Paul The move comes amid a police investigation

into alleged domestic violence involving Paul and her ex-Dakota with authorities confirming claims on both sides. Thoughts. Rachel, guide me. What do you want me to say? say. Okay, so... This got me. All right, so you've heard of the show Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

Very popular show on Hulu of four seasons. The fourth season is on, just was released, dropped all 10 episodes, and apparently this came out with all of this, that they're filming the fifth season. I wasn't aware of that right now. The Bachelorette decided to go off the beaten path for the first time, ever. in years. They have a new production company, still under ABC, but instead of picking a Bachelorette from a prior season, because it doesn't always have to be the immediate season that had just aired. It could be from any, from the past, past contestant. They decided to pick someone who is not affiliated with the franchise in any way, but under the ABC, the Disney

umbrella. They chose Taylor Frankie Paul. She is the star. of, I think we talked about this in a higher learning, but she's the star of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. She came to, she became famous on TikTok. She created this thing called Mom Talk, where these moms would get together in Utah. They all shared or grew up in the Mormon faith. They don't, some of them are more traditional with it.

Some of them are completely away from it and some fall in between. But they just kind of like were, I guess this is what you think being a Mormon is. We're not necessarily that. And so they would do these dances, all this popularity. And then boom, not many people heard of them until Taylor Frankie Paul announces that she is and her husband are getting a divorce. And it's this huge swinging scandal. And she just says, like, in a blanket way, everybody involved in mom talk is a swinger, which is not true.

I'm paraphrasing it, but that's how people took it. It was just her and another couple of her best friends. So she gets divorced, whatever. But the scandals everywhere, because people are like, oh, my gosh, mom talk. They're swingers, but they're Mormon. What's going on? They end up getting the show based off of this. So we're not only introduced to Taylor Frankie Paul, we're introduced to a cast of women.

That is who they make The Bachelorette. So as you can see, this was a very controversial choice. I made a video about it. I think this is when we talked about it on Higher Learning. And I was explaining to you who she is. But not only does she have the swinging scandal, If you watch the show, she's a hot head. She admits to having a lot of emotional issues.

You see her with her parents, with her past, dealing with that she didn't really know her biological father. She didn't know him at all. The divorce. We see her dating a new man. There are all these infidelity issues. But the first episode of season one shows a domestic violence issue. So this is known. happened in 2020. This is known prior to her becoming the Bachelorette. So people are bringing this up

as she's announced. You would assume that she went through the process like the rest of the Bachelorette, which means a criminal background check, which means a psychological test, which means tested for sexually transmitted diseases. You get tested for all of these things. So a lot of people are like, why is she the Bachelorette? That's some, if this was a man who had this allegation, that wouldn't be the case. A lot of people were just like, she doesn't deserve it. You know, you see her be chaotic. There's really no other way to describe it.

On Mormon Wives show, like, why should we give her this chance? We see her going back and forth to her baby daddy. But at the end of season three, you see her at the beginning disappear because she went for weeks away from her family for on like a healing, wellness therapeutic retreat. You see her a lot more calm. You see her kind of be the voice of reason. You see her leave her baby daddy and say, I cannot come back to you. It's over. We cannot be together. It's toxic. So you see it and you're like, okay, like she's really turned a page, which at the time of the announcement, we didn't have season four. So that's the Taylor Frankie Paul that you think you're

getting a healed, looking for love, looking to establish her family unit. She doesn't want to repeat the passed with her mother who got pregnant young. So she didn't have her biological father in her life. She does have a stepfather, so I want to take away from that. But she was breaking the cycle. And then all of this drops, comes out. So her season premieres Sunday. This week has been article after article after article that has been published of something

that happened during filming of season five, like, three weeks ago. And somebody is leaking all of this information. TMZ, it seems like, is posting an article, an update every other hour. But basically, she was involved in, allegedly involved in another, because I do want to make it clear that she did, I don't know she pled no contest or guilty, but she was, she has a charge of, there was an assault there. originally there was there was a child present in that 2023 domestic violent claim and I don't know if that was removed or not but I do know that her ex did not want to do a statement so fast forward again we're having same guy same girl Taylor Frankie Paul another domestic issue he is alleging that she attacked him that he has it on video that she you know physically attacked him, yanked a chain off his neck, all these things. Apparently, CPS has been called.

He says the children have been, I don't know, around, subjected to this in some kind of way. Allegedly there's a psychiatric evaluation that has to be conducted. I don't know if the children have been removed or anything like that, but this is all happening again. And it's coming out as her season's premiering as she's doing press. So I think that puts everything up to date. So when this came out, all the information this week that there was another domestic, alleged domestic violence incident, that is when Cinebun decided to cut ties.

Since at the start of this podcast, literally five minutes before we started this, as we're filming this on Thursday morning in LA, afternoon in New York, TMZ drops a video of that 2023 domestic violence charge that I don't know if anybody had seen. I'm sure it was evidence in whatever the prosecution used, because I don't know if she went to trial or what happened.

But the public had not seen this. And so in this, you see her ex filming her, physically kicking him, throwing metal chairs at him while a child is right there. You can hear the child. She was abusing him? Yes. You can hear the child both.

allegations have been that she's abusing him. I'm no longer going to say 2023. 20203 is not an allegation. She was convicted. I don't know what the exact charge was. And now we're getting the video evidence of that. 2026 is an allegation. She is throwing metal chairs at him. She is screaming him. She's kicking him. She's holding his head. He's telling her to stop. He's saying there's a child that is present here. You can hear the child crying in the background. Leave me alone. Your daughter is right here. Oh my gosh. You're alive.

That is just dropped. I'm getting hit up like crazy. Okay. Somebody else just hit me up again. Another publication wanting a statement. I am doing Bachelor Party this season. If we even have a season, guys, which is the number one question that people are asking, right?

I've decided to do Bachelor Party. I came out and made a video about her being the new Bachelorette. I said I was watching. I understood exactly why they were doing it for business reasons. I said it feels like a new day. Obviously, there's a new host. There's a new production company. They're doing going off the beaten path with a new bachelorette.

I was going to watch. I've said, I've made a joke that she's the most diverse bachelorette we ever had. And it's a new definition of diversity. There have been, shout out to two black girls, one rose. They call her the most, they call her the most ghetto bachelorette. I say most ratchet bachelorette. She's black. had.

No. Okay. I don't know why. I said the podcast is two black girls. Oh, the podcast is two black girls. They are two black women. Okay. And they say she's the most ghetto bachelorette that we've ever had.

I say Ratchett. But yeah, this is got the Bachelor Nation world just and people outside of it. A lot of people are calling for her to be removed even before this video. dropped. Synabon pulled out before this video dropped. I cannot see this moving forward in the same way. I don't know what ABC does, but I think that's the number one question with all of this that's coming out. It's really bad. It's really damaging. And I think the other question is, how did ABC allow this to happen? Did they not? Are they saying they didn't know? Her ex is coming out and put out statement that said he warned ABC about her domestic violence issues. If you are a man who participated

on her season and you sacrificed your time, some people quit their jobs, they lose out on money when they go on this show. How do you feel about all of this situation? And I'm not even mentioning, the fact that if you are currently watching season four of secret lives of Mormon wives, the tailor you saw in season three is not the tailor you see in season four. So if you are, If I'm a man on her season, I'm like, how did you have your head in the game for The Bachelorette if this is how you were just months, weeks before you met us as The Bachelor Mansion? It's a lot. It's a lot. She has pulled out allegedly from doing the Tonight Show. She's pulled out from other things that there was a commitment to is she's doing press this week in New York. She did go on GMA. She was asked questions. She just said it's a heavy time. and that she's prioritizing her children. That's the gist of it.

So that catches you up to date. Okay. Are you watching the video? So, yeah, I'm looking at this stuff. Well, first of all, this was very important to me. What just happened? This was very important. This was an important moment, what just happened.

Why? Because a lot of times I'm, like, explaining the last Jedi to somebody, and I'm saying shit to them. I'm like going, yo, man, Ray gives Luke the lightsaber, and Luke takes the fucking lightsaber and just throws it over his shoulder. How could he do that? It's Luke Skywalker. It's legitimately Luke Skywalker who put the entire fate of the galaxy on the line to go save his friends.

Then Ray comes to him and says, hey, your sister and am I out fighting the first order? Here's your lightsaber, Skywalker, the chosen one. the son of the chosen one, but maybe the actual chosen one, get in the game. And Luke Skywalker, who we haven't seen in years, who we were waiting to see at the peak of his force powers. I mean, if you read legends, Luke was crushing shit, stopping time, doing all kinds. Like, we were waiting to see this on screen. He takes a lightsaber, throws it over his shoulder.

What is Ryan Johnson doing? And I will be telling people like this, and then they will be making a lot of. the face that you're making right now and I would be like how could you how could you not care about the son of Anakin Skywalker the one who defeated

kind of the emperor or made his father defeat the emperor how could you not care that he don't want to get in the fight and I am so fucking indignant about that because that's my whole life but the person doesn't give a fuck

Well, it's also hard. You names like eight people in there. That's the same shit that just happened to me. And this is one of the most important things ever. This shit is on Good Morning America. Cineabon, not even willing to give them the tasty treats anymore. Cineabon said, this shit is so bad. Y'all can't have no cinnamon rolls.

Cineabon will sell a cinnamon roll to anyone. I've seen some of the people that have bought them. They've never cut anybody off. What was the last time Cine Bun told somebody that you can't have a cinnamon roll? This must be really bad. This is terrible for Cineabon to say we don't want more people to see that we will give you a thousand calories cinnamon roll. They're out. They said we don't want you to know that she eats our cinnamon rolls.

We don't want you guys. Cineabon said, look, we're willing to sell less. Cinnamon rolls, man, Cinebun got the middle, they sell the middle of the cinnamon roll. Did you know that? Yes. Cine bun sells just the middle.

That's how much they're trying to dig you the sugar. They sell just the middle of the cinnamon roll. You can get it glazed and just the middle of the cinnamon roll. But they don't care about that anymore because this shit is too far. And while you were saying that,

I was trying so fucking hard to keep up and to care. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Rachel, that was some fucking, hold on no, no. Wait a second now. Don't turn this around. That was some fucking Robin Roberts type shit that you was just on.

Oh, did I, did I have my Robin Roberts voice going on too? But like. So Taylor Frankie Paul, also known from Mom TikTok, she. You got that shit. But I'm watching this. Extra rates. Remember her? Okay.

Yeah, I got extra rates. The question is this. This is the question for me. All right. For you, somebody who knows what goes on, what differently might the network do in positioning her or making her into a celebrity

how would it be you mean like a loved celebrity beloved because she's she's a celebrity okay a beloved well her celebrity I would assume would go up during the bachelorette or am I tripping on that oh yeah yeah yeah a whole new audience is gonna mean whole new audience so

ABC not being able to and this is a legitimately a legitimate question here ABC not being able to lean into her in the same way that they've leaned into other bachelorets what do they do? You can't hide the bachelor's got to sell the show do you, is this a situation

where she goes and does an hour sit down with somebody? Like how would you handle it if you were running ABC does she do the podcast runs, she talk about it? Do you get the couple together? Where's the guys heading all of this? No, no, no. You do not get them together.

That is truly spoken. from someone who, that's Bell in the background, producer Bell. Bell's laughing at me. Bell, I don't know. You know what, Bell? You know, Bell, I- Bell cackled with her head back.

That's how big her laughter was. I don't know, Bill, you'll need to laugh at me. Bell, who are the Jedi twins? Thank you. So you don't know. She doesn't have her face. Exactly. Who are the Jedi twins, Bill?

Don't do that to me. I'm coming from a place of ignorance here. This is our ring or verse. Right. Listen to, yes. Bachelor Party again, I will be on Bachelor Party for the season, assuming there is one. What would I do? This is, my first answer is, I don't know.

This is bad. I felt it was bad before. When I saw this video drop, it's like, because here's the number, the thing. We know. I'm going to do what you normally say. We know if this was a man, it would be told, we wouldn't even be questioning this. I didn't do that. Right?

Two shots in the world. That said, I'm going to do it. Bell hit me for no reason. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Because it's true. No, I'm giving, like, we know we would be handling it different. We know if Taylor wasn't white.

We would be handling this completely different. And so if I'm ABC, I want you to look, remember when Matt, oh my gosh, am I really channeling van today? Like, what did I drink, eat or something? Listen to this. I'm not to make a movie reference. difference. Remember in a time to kill when Matthew McConaughey is giving his closing arguments and he tells the jury to close his eyes and he's retelling what happened. And then he says, now imagine she's white and everybody opens their eyes because Samuel Jackson just yelled at

him and told him to challenge the jury and all that. And like the next scene is them running out of the courthouse and a victory and he was found not guilty. That's what I need ABC and them to do. I want you to close your eyes and pretend that she's, if she was a man, how would you handle this or if she wasn't white? How would you handle this? Truthfully. Taylor Frankie Paul. This is what I'll say. Taylor Frankie Paul has positioned herself as very honest and real. And what you see is what you get. She's done an interview. I thought it was bad. It was, I don't think she came across me. maybe as sincere she wanted to. She's probably nervous. It just didn't land, and it was very vague.

If this is her, not if, this is her brand. This is what she says about herself. I don't know if it's an hour sit down, but what I wouldn't want to see as somebody who has watched her on TV is you do something curated because I know that's not you. I would want to hear from you, but I would want to hear from you

in the way that you have presented yourself us from the TikTok days to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and now as The Bachelorette. Talk, get control of your narrative by you speaking out to it. I don't know if that's going to be a good or a bad thing, but I don't think anybody is going to believe anything curated. Because from what I'm seeing, the only interview that I've seen her do with Good Morning America was not well received. All right.

So I don't know what they're going to do. If it was one person, there's one person who I would be, I'll be more than, I'll be more upset about this than anyone. It's a gentleman named Trenton Merrill. All right. So Trenton Merrill is somebody who I knew who this was. Now I'm looking at the cast list of the Bachelor rent. I'll be mad if I was him.

You know him? Well, I don't know him, but I know who he is. He's an athlete. He got one foot missing. And I'm... Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm looking at him. He would have been the bachelor.

They're going to have the one foot bachelor on this bitch next year. He would have been the bachelor. He would have got, if this wouldn't have happened on this season, Trenton Meryl, when you look at him, look him up right now. Look him up. He got a- No, I've seen it. I've seen the season.

He got a-old. I mean, that's season. I've seen the first episode. Right. So he, he to me had a future as the bachelor. Having a one-footed bachelor is crazy. If you think, if we're going for full diversity here. And him having a one-foot, one-foot Paralympic Bachelor is,

nuts. He might get fucked over now. He got a line in the side of his head. What's up with this nigga? He like he he he this is bad for him as I'm looking at the people that might have gone on and been the bachelor. All right. Um, so then okay, so cool. So you say that it would have been different if it was a man. It's not going to be different. And this is another time for us to realize that we understand the acceptable double standard that we don't look at this the same way when women are abusive to men. right we did we don't we don't it's a double standard it's an acceptable double standard

no one should hit anyone ever but there is just a clear difference between this woman hitting her husband then what it would have been if her husband was hitting her I understand that it's it's equality and it's all of that I get it but that is just a fact and no one's gonna look at it the same it's no one's

The only time we're going to hear, the only time we try to look at it the same is when y'all say stuff like Clarissa Shields could be Floyd Mayweather. That's the only time y'all want it to be the same. In every other time when y'all get on y'all shit and y'all be like, I think Ronda Rousey could submit Francis in Ghanu. That's the only time that we try to act like. But in every other time when we're using our rational brains, we understand that this is the same.

crime, but doesn't quite have the same impact. It's the same thing, but one situation is just infinitely more dangerous than the other one because of sheer physicality, right? Yeah. But throwing metal chairs, children, like, I hope the children are okay. Obviously, we're going to prioritize them more than the lead of a show, whatever's going on with her and Dakota. Dakota's really taking a hit in 2026.

And yeah, yeah. Also go read Jody Walker's article on the ringer.com. She has an article called The New Season of The Bachelorette is a mess before it's even begun. You said Jody Walker. You made me think of Jody Wattley. Oh, speaking of other stuff that Bell doesn't know. Bell, Bell, who is Jody Wattley's sister? because she's a legend in some whole different shit.

Do you know who that is, Belle? Who is Jody Wattley's sister? I bet you don't know. Try to tell me because I don't know about this stuff. Bell, I don't know who her sister. Who is, looking up. Jody Wattley's sister. I am.

I'm trying to look it up right now. A legend. Bernard, I know you don't know either. Really? T-Bos is, I mean, obviously I know Jody Wadley, but I did not know. Not T-Boss? Is T-Boh. Oh, wait.

Sorry, wrong section. Oh, I was about to say, no, it's not Teabazz. It's somebody totally different. That's who, that's who. Jody Watley's sister. Who is Jody Wadley's sister? Jody Wadley, who's a big time story. T-Bahs looks at Jody Wadley as somebody she mirrored her career or her voice and style after.

That's what I, oh, oh, Van. Van. Legend. Legend. Her younger sister is singer and former pornographic. actress Michelle Woller. Better known as Madori.

Ha, ha. So don't, yeah, see, so don't get at me about shit I don't know. It's about I don't know no goddamn synobuns. All right, Afro-Man. This is the funniest shit that's ever happened. All right. Rapper Afro-Man just scored a major legal win as he's been found

not liable in a bizarre defamation lawsuit filed by Ohio sheriff's deputies. The case stem from a 2022 raid on his home, but local officers that turned up found nothing. But Afro-Man later used the footage in his music videos mocking the officers. Deputies claimed the videos damaged their reputation, but the jury cited with Afro-Man, effectively backing his argument that the content was protected speech.

We got a little video here for y'all. All right. Next up was Officer Lisa Phillips. And again, the claims for her is that Afro-Man has made many statements about her gender, her orientation, and he said that she looks and sounds, like a man. So to start off her direct examination, Lisa talks about her family life. You have a husband? Yes, sir. Um, as a child. Yes, sir.

How old is your child? She's 21. And then the attorney jumped to the very first post-Afro-Man made about Lisa. Okay, down near the bottom of that first paragraph, has anybody in Adams County verified her vagina? If you haven't, you should, or she might walk out something bigger than yours. and then down below a little further. My name for this particular officer is Lieutenant Mona Lickamlow Lisa. Now if it's not clear, Afro Man has created nicknames for each of the officers.

And for Lisa, he calls her Lieutenant Lickamlow Lisa. And in the song, while you disconnected my video camera, he repeatedly calls her this name and makes some other statements. So that video is played for the jury. Lieutenant, look at my ex-wife Lisa. Stop looking that back there.

Okay. So I have to say that YouTube creator is named that YouTube creator is named. I'm not a lawyer but on YouTube. I want to tell her that I want to tell her that I have subscribed to her. I have really enjoyed her coverage of this and I've looked at some other stuff from her. I'm hoping to have her on higher learning at some point.

The way she's been breaking down this trial has been fantastic, right? Okay. So apparently what happened in this entire situation, if you guys don't know, is that back in the day, these cops busted in on Afro-Man, basically thinking that Afro-Man had like drugs. So August 22, a squad of deputies from the Adams County Sheriff's Office in Ohio. They broke down Afro-Man's door with weapons in hand. He was not home. But a family member recorded videos of the search,

and he had security camera video that showed the officers basically going through his home. Now, they had a warrant to search for evidence of drug trafficking and kidnapping, but they didn't find anything. All right. They seized some money, then had to return the money. Afro-man claims that they didn't.

They kept $400. Okay. He also claims that one of the people that bused into his house was trying to steal some of his mother's lemon pound cake that was in the kitchen. So he made a... No, he said, but wait, yes, but what he said was, they left with nothing,

but then he saw on the footage that before the officer left, he turned around and stared at the lemon pound cake. So the Afro Man starts putting out records. He puts out, I guess, the Lick-Moleezza joint. He puts out Lemon Pound Cake, which is a legitimately good song, by the way. The Lemon Pound Cake is a legitimately good song, okay? These... He puts out, will you help me repair my door?

Will you help me repair my door is a joint, right? Because they broke his shit, okay? The cops coming in and they broke a shit. So Afro-Man starts dropping records. And in these records, he's saying stuff about the cops, and he's showing the cops his face. One of the cops apparently had a brother that was investigated for some underage type shit.

Okay? Then there's lieutenant, I don't want to call the woman where he called her, Lickam Lowe, Lisa. He calls her Lickamlo Liza. And her name is Lisa Lickam Lowe, whatever. Lisa Lickam Loh, whatever. They say that they experienced

pain and suffering and embarrassment because of this. But if you listen to I'm a lawyer's page, right? Or I'm not a lawyer's page. The sister, if you listen to her page, the problem is that the shit that Afro-Man was saying in the song, besides about, you know, I don't know what this woman's sexual behaviors are. Lysa, yeah.

The other shit is true. Because they had this guy up on the stand and they ask them, they go, well, was your brother investigated for some of this stuff and the guy's like, yeah. Now how the fuck you're going to sue for defamation if Afro-Man is rapping shit in the record

and the shit is actually slightly factual, right? It's true. There's a basis to it. He's making fun of you. Yeah. No, what are you going to say? No, what are you going to say?

It was like like the stolen money. Like the stolen money he talks, he raps about. And it's like they, $400 was missing. That's something that was asked on the stand, and they admitted to that, too. You know, they did kick down his door. Lemon Poundcake was, which sounds delicious, was on the table. It was there. Yeah.

Now, the Lisa thing I don't know about, but this was a big case for the First Amendment, for the First Amendment, which is why it's also so funny that he went to court in an American flag suit. Yeah. He said, this is protected speech. This is me. This is an artistic form of expression. It's creative expression. And his argument was he's allowed to make songs based on his opinions.

I have to be honest here. And it was obvious that he was making fun of them. That he was parody. Yeah. It wasn't. That people weren't, shouldn't be like, it didn't ruin their reputation as what he, his argument was because it was clear that he was trolling them or that he was, it was a parody that was also their argument for people not to take seriously.

But did you see where they were like, they've been taunted by kids? Didn't somebody say something like that? Yeah, they feel like they're subject to ridicule in the community now because of Afro-Man. Just to let y'all know, these records are not bricking. Lemon Pound Cake has three million views on YouTube. That's why they're upset. They're pissed off. Like in the Lemon Pound Cake video, which I watched at least a half a dozen times, it shows Afro Man at a show.

And Afro Man is at this show. And the whole show is getting down to the lyrics of Lemon Pound Cake. I have to say something real quick. This, number one, is a big win for the First Amendment, like you say. Afro Man goes up into the pantheon of rappers who have taken on free speech. We're talking about Luther Campbell and EZE and all of these people who've been free speech advocates, you know. But also, I'm surprised that we don't have more conversation about the fragility of police officers. Every time I watch some of these videos, because I watch a lot of these First Amendment auditor videos, these police be acting like they pussy.

Like every single time is like. That's an ego. Yeah, it's ego trip for sure. The police will get you out of your car, make you sit in the back of their shit, cuff you, degrade you, dehumanize you, talk all kinds of shit, be completely impolite to you, flex on you, the whole thing. And if you look at the police officer, you say, ah, you ugly bitch, then they want to shoot you 15 times, put you in jail or sue you like these cops did.

Take your medicine. You went into his fucking shit. you thought you had a warrant for all of this shit I would be interested to know what type of investigation went into thinking that Afro-Man was a drug dealer and kidnapping people I'll be interested to know

like where that came from who knows you didn't find anything he's a rapper he's not going to stay silent about it he's a guy that people at least have some knowledge of he made a song about you and then they look

so weak and sensitive. There's this kind of thing where the cops are this, they act like this marauding force that can do whatever they want and then they can't take anything or else they got to kill you, sue you, or throw you in jail. Yeah, it's definitely pride.

You know, I've talked about my experience and working in municipal court and having, I've had to review, I did traffic stops, so I had to review a lot of police stops, police interactions and I would see it and like people would come in who would want to contest their traffic ticket and they would tell me things that would happen and I would watch the video and I would be like we're dismissing this you know so I and because there's this and I'm not saying every

every police officers like this but you know from what I'm talking about my personal experience there is just this power that becomes intoxicating to them because they're now wearing a uniform and they have a gun and they have certain authority over you and And so they makes them feel like they're invincible and they can do anything. And so, yeah, I'm not shocked. I am shocked that this went as far as it did, but I think really what gets them to. It's not just that they're embarrassed because clearly they are and I would totally understand why. But, you know, he wore, he's been wearing t-shirts where he thanks the officers for the over five million views that he gets on TikTok.

He's clearly made money off of this, off of, uh, what happened to him, which is genius for him to turn it around into a financial situation where he benefits and a resurgence of his talent and career. But they want to tap into that money. At the end of the day, not only are they embarrassed, they're pissed off that he's getting richer off of this. And they're trying to, they were trying to sue him for that money. And now they don't get any of it. Like, I'll tell you something, man. Nothing. the pain of being clown never goes away. I've seen this before.

If you got people in your life that could take a joke and that can take being clowned, always appreciate those people. Because I've seen some of the biggest stars in the world be reduced back down to the school cafeteria with somebody getting some jokes off on them. Sometimes it hurts.

You know? It hurts. These people try to, These people, these hurts, these people try to sue Afro-Man. Now they look even crazier. I would have never known about this. Exactly. And like Afro-Man did been doing interviews. I want to have Afro-Man on here.

I would have never known about this. I would have never known. Would have never known. You're so right. Thank you for making that point. I totally forgot that. They, I don't know what they were thinking, but this is even more embarrassing because I feel like, is he in Ohio?

Wherever he is, yes, Ohio. I feel like this was like a regional thing. They knew about it, maybe even local. It was just with them. I barely remember his house being raided. Like I vaguely remember that. But the details of this, oh, now this is national news. Yeah.

This is national news. And we know names that we never knew before. Not just nicknames, government names. And that's because y'all wanted to make this public. And I don't know what you thought would come of it. If locally they were laughing, what did you think they were going to do nationally? Yeah. Also, shout out to this jury for not being swayed by the fact that the police in this situation

can't take a joke after they broke this man door. Broke this man door. What did they do? They broke his door. They broke his camera, whatever they did. They stole $400. Yeah, they cut off his security. They cut off his security.

They store $400. You can't just do that. This is America. You can't just go in Afro Man House. and try to eat a piece of his mama's lemon pound cake with no retribution, we're not going for that, okay? A win, a rare win for us over the police. Now, I didn't see any black people at that Afro-Man concert.

I'll say that. But what I will say is in this situation, I'm going to count this as a dub. Lisa Phillips, Sean S. Grooms, his name is Grooms. That's his name. I hope this is not the guy with the brother. Hold on for a second. Wait a minute. Because I don't want to... There were seven officers.

There were seven officers. Can I just say, Van... Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. You're missing... What? You're missing an opportunity here. What's the opportunity? This could be a limited series or a movie.

I thought the exact same thing. I'm not going to be able to get it. It really can. You know, I'm going back to film school. So I'm not going to be able to get it. So I'm not going to have time. But this Afro-Man, like, Afro-Man versus Ohio. or Ohio versus that's who plays Afro-Man Craig Robinson Craig Robinson is the only person the only person

Afro-man still a young guy by the way he only 51 years old so he got a he got to go out so hold on for a second hold on for a second I just want to let people know that this uh this um this is in the tradition of Afro Man. I'm on his Wikipedia right now. And the first song that Afro Man ever wrote was a song called Harry Carey. And this was a disc song against a student known for harassing other students' appearance.

Students. And so then he wrote a song called Harry Carey about her because she was getting at people. So I'm whatever, man. I'm into it. I'm into it. I'm into it, man. This is tough.

So, you know, the- He wrote it in middle school. Did you say that? He wrote it. It was Harry Carey though. Okay, I need you to, he wrote it in middle school. The police didn't know that. That was his first song that he ever wrote.

All right. Last story, and this is another one. Ray J tried to. I'm sick of being on Ray J. watch. You don't like it? Go ahead, Jay. Ray J went off in a viral rant targeting Cameron, Mace, and Shine after the trio started joking on a podcast about dating Ray J's sister Brandy at the same time back in the 90s. Ray J responded with a very explicit profanity-filled video demanding they keep her name out of their mouths and escalating things with personal insults and threats.

All three of y'all is like the three stooges. and y'all looking real attractive. So when I see y'all, y'all better not have that skirt on. Y'all better pull your panties up. You know what I'm saying? For real. I see y'all.

I know where y'all at. I know where y'all at. Y'all be slipping, too, in Vegas, walking around the wind, acting like y'all winning. Get some money and have to do 5,000 shows. Okay, yeah, that's enough of Ray J. That's enough of Ray J.

Okay. That's enough. So, Shine addressed it. What does Sean say? He said, let the, he said, he said,

let the record reflect, in all caps, I did not hit it first. So he's saying he didn't have sex with him. Yeah. First. That's what he said. Cameron put up a video of Ray J.

getting his ass beat. Okay. somewhere. So that was his response to it. Nobody's responded verbally to Ray J. This is what I'll say. Well, first off, I will say when I took a bathroom break and I went to the bathroom over the speakers, Brandy was playing. Brandy. And I was like, it was the song, I want to be down and I started singing and I thought, just interesting timing. Just interesting timing. Just maybe think of the song in a way that I never had before. because I heard this. Just interesting.

But I've never been a fan of women or men talking about who they've allegedly had sex with. I just don't like that. I think it's whack on both sides. Now, do I like the way Ray J responded? No. Do I understand him getting upset over people talking about what his sister does privately? Of course, as a brother, family member, who wouldn't be upset? But I just think it's tacky.

And I do agree with Ray J that they were clearly talking about this for clicks. They were clearly doing this to have a viral moment, which it has now gone viral. And Ray J. responding in the way that he did added to that. But I just don't like that. Men or women. Don't talk about who you've had sex with in the past. I just think is unnecessary. So how do you feel about Ray Jays?

Publicly. How do you feel about Ray Jays response? well, I don't like how he went about it. I said that. I don't like how he said and the things that he was saying and the way. Like, it's really problematic. But I understand you wanting to take up for your sister when she's being publicly talked about in this way. And to his point, she's typically private about her personal life and what she does.

So I understand it. But I don't like what he said and how he said it. So Brandy responded. for some reason it's a lot of it I don't know why when people get on these platforms I don't know why Brandy is such a brandy seems to be always a target like people saying stuff that happens like why do you why do people be picking on brandy why is it Brandy I don't I don't know that to be true I've just heard about you're wrong I just don't know that I didn't realize that people are always coming at her I don't know why it's a

But look, so here's the deal. I look at all of this is like just mindless entertainment for me. It's just like just something to go, ah, ha, ha, ha, it's funny as laugh, whatever. It's just entertainment. So I'm going to rate this based on the most entertaining thing because I'm not going to even attempt in any way to take any of this seriously. Like, not at all, right? So the most entertaining thing is what I'm going to go. gravitate towards.

And I would be lying if I didn't say that the most entertaining thing out of this so far was the bizarre, homoerotic, directly homoerotic, like directly homoerotic, gangster situation of Ray J. That was almost liberating in ways. Like when you look at it and you watch it what Ray was willing to say right there where he said he looked at them and they were attractive.

He said that they were attractive. That's, you know, I know Ray J got his whole thing with the gajency, and he talks about that a lot. You know, the gajency, he's an ally of the people. You know, you don't know about the gajency? Yeah. I don't want to keep going. But Ray J got the gai. Well, he wasn't an ally in how he responded to this.

Well, what I'm trying to say, like when I look at it, if I was to take any of this, come on, this is the deal. it's kind of like the pause game nobody takes the pause game seriously if we were to take the pause game seriously what we'd have to talk about is the fact the pause game is a deeply homophobic and blah blah blah but we understand that it's jokes and we try and whatever

the whole nine we get it we can't be our best wokeest selves at all times we try to be but sometimes we just fucking cracking jokes that is what it is so since I'm not taking any of this seriously I will have to say that

Ray J's response transfixed me and I watched it a bunch of times as well because what the fuck is going on. What the fuck has happened in that whole situation? That was some of the most bizarre shit. That man was grabbing his shit. Ray J. was grabbing. What the fuck got into

Ray Jay? I think he was trying to take us back. Do you remember the Fabulous joint? Remember this? Remember where Ray J. and Fabulous got into it and Ray J. went on the classic rant? No. I try to forget. You mean to tell me that you don't remember, sorry.

You don't remember Ray J calling the breakfast club. This must have been like, so this is, Rachel, this is true. Maybe I do, I do vaguely remember that. I just don't know if I'd realize, like, in my mind, I didn't know if I thought it was fabulous when I'm like, recalling, but sure. So, I do remember him. Fabulous apparently was, uh, fabulous was on the internet. It was, this all got started because.

because of HBO 24-7 a documentary. It was a Floyd Mayweather of the junior fight. I can't remember who Floyd was fighting. But there was a clip of this from this documentary of Ray J like singing at Floyd's house, right? He was on the piano and he was singing. He was with Floyd at this point. Like him and Floyd was all in the same crew.

Like Ray J. Floyd, 50, I guess that was the money team at that point or maybe 50 had left by that point. I'm not sure. But everybody was all together. Ray J. singing at his boy's house. I didn't see the big deal. but I guess Fab and Kevin Hart was on social media making fun of Ray J saying that he was doing shows

in 50s living room. Don't do no shows in 50s living room. I never looked at it like that, but they was being funny. Ray J. did not fucking appreciate that. Went nuts on the breakfast club. And this is a classic moment, a classic moment. Indoor pool, outdoor pool, 50 cars,

like going to, like, going. off credit the whole nine everybody knows it i think ray j was maybe trying to restore the feeling a little bit with this rant now he did not get to that level because that was i could tell that ray jay was really in his pure emotions when he was doing that that was authentic this seemed to be to me a little bit more planned out let me say some shit that's like that old shit to get them going. Nonetheless, though, I was entertained. I was entertained.

And since it's all for fun anyway, since, I mean, none of this shit is like really, let's see what Cam and Mason them do. Let's see what Ray J do. Let's see how long this one goes. There's a new one of these. Let's not. Let's see how far this one goes. Let's actually not.

I want to be very clear. I don't like Ray J. I don't like doing Ray J watch. I don't like having to cover him. It's always some just random, problematic, unhinged shit. I understand you wanting to take up for your sister. That's as much as I'm going to give you. But I'm not entertained by Ray J.

I don't find him to be funny. Those days are long gone from For the Love of Ray J. I like that show. But I, every time we got to talk about Ray J, it's just this is how my face is going to be. You don't like him. I don't like him. I don't like it.

I want to be very clear about that. I'm not entertained. I'm not entertained. You mean tell me you don't think, hold on. You don't think Ray J is entertaining? No, no, no, no. I'm not, I said I'm not entertained. I can understand how people do.

He has a following for that. Right. Ray J needs to prioritize his health. How about that? Ray J has made a statement about his health suffering. So you're going to a different place with it. How about you focus on that? How about you put your energy in that?

I've done with Ray J. Brandy. Let's move on to something positive. Brandy says... What did Brandy say? She said in the late 90s, I had a platonic friendship with the rapper Shine. In the unfortunate turn of events, that friendship is now being mischaracterized as we dated. Unequivocally, we did not. I'm not sure why an untrue narrative about the scope of what a friendship was more than 20 years ago

is being reshaped during current media interviews. People telling their version of my story is why I'm releasing my upcoming memoir phases. Brandy sells something. It is time to tell my truth and debunk many of the misnomeras that people think they know about my life. Additionally, I rarely release statements and typically ignore stories about me in headlines even when they're false. But when I do decide to stand up for myself, I handle things on my own. While I love my brother Ray J, I don't condone or support the messages he shared on social media and have not asked him to defend me in any way, shape, or form.

He looks stupid. Hey, look, I was... Good for Brandy. Way to use it as an opportunity to promote your book. To sell. She looks great on the cover. Way to use it as an opportunity to promote your upcoming memoir. Love that she addressed it that way.

Shout out to everybody involved. Don't take none of it. Don't take none of this seriously. If you take any of this seriously, this is all just shit. Well, Brandy did. Well, Brandy should take it seriously. Brandy did. Yes. Because it's her life. I don't want to. Exactly.

So it's like, you can't say don't take it seriously because it is serious to someone. Somebody's reputation is being spoken on in a way that she says is untruthful. So there is a seriousness to it. Also, his rant was homophobic.

So like, yeah, Ragey might be a joke to people, but like he still said things that people are going to find offensive. So I don't want to... To me, to me, I'm going to be real. Seriously. not everything that's offensive do I take seriously. Because I'm going to be real with you. I get that.

We just did Afro-Man, right? I could make an argument that the Lickham-Lol-Losa stuff. Yes, you can. That the Lick-M-Losea stuff, her saying that she got a dick or whatever he was trying to say. Oh, I don't hear all that. No, no, he said that. You could make an argument that some of that stuff is offensive. Not everything that's offensive do I take seriously.

I'm just making space. I get that you're doing that, but there are people who will, and that's all I'm saying. Anyways, let's move it on to our interview. All right, let's take it to the interview. We got our man Kermm on the show. Shout out to Kerm. His book, where the book at?

Well, we're going to do it in a second. Bernard fly the book in. Jonathan Kerma, a fantastic poem coming up to you. You guys are not going to want him. Don't fucking turn the podcast off. Jonathan Kerma is on right now on other side of this, and we're going to get a poem from him. and talk about his book,

Heal My Heroes in one second after this break. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients?

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New Sweet Green Raps hit different. Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together,

peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, Annette Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Want your kids to learn and play every Sunday for free?

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We have a special treat on higher learning right now. Jonathan Kermah is joining us. You guys know them affectionately as Kerm are Former coworker who has released a brand new book. Yes, sir. Called Heel My Heroes. Now, a superpowered Kerm Joint. So this book I've known about for a long time

because I'm in the book. Yes, sir. And the conceit here is really, really, really fantastic. Kerm, first of all, obviously we love you. I love y'all. It's great to see you. Tell us a little bit about the book, how it came about it and what you're doing with. Yeah, first of all, it's great to see y'all.

That's one of my favorite podcasts. So thank you for the opportunity just to be on here. But yeah, He'll My Hero is a Superpowered Kerm Joint. It's a poetry collection, 50 poems written by me, dedicated to both the heroes and villains in both comic books. and our everyday lives. And so the way I, you know, pay those homages to heroes and villains, there's a lot of color artwork from local artists.

Like, let me give you an example from my homie. That dude Jay got me fighting some French fries in the middle of a wrestling ring. And yeah, so telling different stories from me growing up, telling my different perspectives that I have on life now through the lens of superheroes. That's pretty much it. You know, it's been a two-year process writing it. I took this class called Community Literature Initiative with CLI, this program.

You know, they help you publish, you know, they find poets that haven't published before and helped them publish their first book. So that course was really helpful in terms of getting feedback from other writers week to week, staying committed to the process. And from there, I went and, you know, I took some offers from different local publishers, but I felt like self-publishing was just the best route for me as a debut author. You know, I don't have much leverage. So I'd rather do this myself.

All the money is on me. What I get, you know, I have to earn that myself. I'm my own PR person. I'm the one that emailed y'all. I'm my own funder. I use my podcast and day job stuff to fund this. And yeah, we got the product. Kerm, congratulations.

So inspiring. I'm so, I'm so glad. I'm not there in person. And I'd set this, I believe I set this on the podcast. I definitely said it to Van, but you're so talented. And I just happened to stumble across your talent in real life. Yeah. Going to a place I had never been before, invited through somebody else.

And imagine my surprise when all of a sudden I'm thinking you're just there attending when I see you. And to hear how beautifully talented you are as a poet. And I couldn't get over it. I was like, wow, there's so much talent at The Ringer that we just don't even know about. And so to see you doing this book and just pursuing it and even taking the classes, I'm like, I might have to hit you up on the side and find out about this class. This is amazing. We can talk.

We can talk. I'm interested in how you got into poetry. How you, you know, is it in, well, I'll let you start there. Yeah. I mean, I've always had a fascination with reading and writing that starts with my mom from a very young age. during the summers, she wouldn't let me just, you know, be like every other kid and just chill. She made sure I was reading books, writing essays, book reports for her during the summer. So that, you know, created a fondness for, you know, language writing.

But my fascination with poetry really didn't start until I was about 18. So in high school, you know, I was a little SoundCloud rapper at like 16. It was rapping and shit. And then my, um... Failing to the trap. What did you say? Fell into the trap. Yeah.

And then my senior year, I was a high school. High School, I actually was in a poetry class at Adderboro High School. I grew up in Massachusetts. And in that class, Mr. Boone's poetry class, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't remember anything he was teaching that class, but I remember one specific day he was playing deaf poetry and the poem Knock Knock by Daniel Beatty played. And this is this poem about a son being estranged from his father who's been incarcerated and kind of telling his whole story of growing up without his father and growing up to having to be the man

that teaches himself how to be a man. And that kind of, that touched me at 17. And, you know, I started writing poems within that class as well as incorporating poems within my music. And kind of the fascination began there. And about two and a half years ago, it was time to get out of my cocoon in LA. I felt like I was very much,

I moved here in the pandemic, so it was easy to just stay inside, not do shit, And use that as an excuse, but it was like, all right, bro, you live here for two years. You know you love poetry. You know, I love watching stand-up comedy. I was like, man, you know, I want to try it. But it wasn't like a tool that I had been working on for years like I had with writing songs and poems.

And so I went to the different poetry space in L.A. As you mentioned before, Rachel, you saw me at the Poetry Lounge. That was the first place for me. That's a legendary venue. They've been around for 26 years. DPL, yeah. That's right. And so DPL is like 26 years old.

And so the first time I performed there, I did this poem called tentatively, I call it walking contradiction. That's not the real title, but that's what people know it by. And the way they reacted, it just, I was like, oh, I'm home. And in the past two years, I've found so much community in those spaces, whether it's DPL, Radical Hood Library, World Stage Press, with the Nazi Writers Workshop. There's just all these spaces that helped me really learn LA and learn about myself and just feel part of something, part of a community. So that's kind of been the journey. Where can people how? That community was real.

I just want to say. I felt like y'all took me into the community just for one, it's any one time. Yeah. Where and how do people get to the book? Is the book on Amazon? It is. How did you go about the business part of taking this book from an idea to actual hard copy? Yeah.

So there's two ways to get the access to the book now. If you don't live in L.A., get that shit on Amazon. Or, you know, especially if you know me, you can DM me and maybe I'll mail you a copy and we can do it that way. But if you live in L.A., I'm doing it, you know, mixtape style. You can get it off of me directly. I have a printing plug that, you know, helped me get like 250 copies. So I've been, all month, I've just been pulling up on people at their jobs, different places,

give them a copy of the book. It looks sketchy until you pull the book out of your bag. instead of, you know, something else. And I have a release party this Saturday at Arts Share, L.A. That's downtown, the Arts District at 7 p.m. doors open. And so we'll be putting on a show there. You can buy books there. But yeah, the main places, Amazon or directly through me.

Those are the two spaces you can get the book right now. Kerm. Yes, ma'am. Oh, go. Oh, wait. Go ahead, Rachel. No, no, no. No, no, you got it.

Okay. Kerm, I was going to say, how many times you just written poems for the late? for the lyrics for the like back in the day because I just I would just imagine this would be it would probably work on me I had a boyfriend in high school who used to take me no yeah he used to take me to um you know him van used to take me to like we go to like poetry clubs and it fits right it makes sense and I just this was like when neo soul was at its height I'm not talking about that jack carlo neo soul I'm talking about original neo soul Jack carlo

I don't know so is crazy. To even put that in sentence as wild. Yeah, you can't say that. That's right. Monika. You get me. But I would just, it would work on me. I would be like, oh, you're going to go up there and do some poetry?

Like, oh, I would just be so moved by it. This is gang. Is it not? It's absolutely game. But I think when you go into poetry shows, in my opinion, it's like, I don't want to be that, that guy that is only writing romantic poems. There are some people that are just one, like that's, that's their lane and they're much better at that. I'm more of like a every, every man type of dude. I definitely have plenty of poems for the ladies and it can get attention.

I'll say that. It can get attention. But yeah, yeah, I'll keep it there. I went to a couple of poems of Kerm's poetry readings. I went to, I think I went to two of them. Two or just one. I want to say it's one. I think it's one.

It was a really, because I had, my sister's a problem. poet. I don't know if you know this about that. Did you know that? Her Instagram name. My sister's a poet. She's called Rage. Okay. She got some angry content. Yeah. She got one called party and bullshit. That's an indictment on everybody. You go to the fucking place. You're having a good time and then she'd get up there and she started doing a thing. So I used to be at Soul Fusion and all these different spots that they had back in Baton Rouge listening to poetry. and I forgot until I went to your reading what a positive environment it is.

There are lots of different poets with lots different levels of talent and delivery, but everybody up there, you would think that they are the best, most skilled, most adept poet ever. Because the love is the same for everyone. Because it's like, the way I look at it is,

one of my favorite poets and favorite hosts, his stage name is Blue. He says, you know, give love to the people on stage that you would want for yourself. And I look at like, I'm not very religious. My mom is, love you, mama. I don't really go to church. But going to these poetry shows, it's that same sense of community that you would get in church. And it's just everybody coming as they are, giving, you know, pieces of themselves on a stage. So how can you not support that?

You know what I mean? And so for me, it's never about, you know, oh, this poem, this poet is so talented in terms of their rhyme schemes, in terms of their delivery. Even sometimes there's plenty of people that go up there for their first time. They just trying to read this poem about whatever's, you know, troubling them. You got to support that. You got to show love for that. It would feel weird to not do that. Kerm.

Oh, go ahead, Rachel. I was just going to say, Kerm, have you ever been to the juice joint? No, I've been invited multiple times. It's the on Mondays, right? Or once a month? Come Monday. Okay. Do some poetry.

Promote your book. Okay. Because I usually go the last Monday. I'll send you info. Last Monday every month. Mm-hmm. And yes, it's obviously you get up there. You know, you play.

Musicians can get up there freestyle. The band, they switch off and off with musicians. People sing. People rap. But people do poetry to the beat too. I think it would be an awesome place for you to go just like promote yourself. A whole community is there too. Yeah.

at the same time. Okay. Put people on game. Best poets out there to you. Ooh. Okay. Best poets right now. I'll go back to my man Blue.

His real name is Josiah. He's a phenomenal poet that hosts at Radical Hood Library. That's the rapper No Names Library over in Jefferson Park. Another one of my favorite poets, Deja Vu. She's amazing. She wins all the slam competitions. You know, I'm not really the best poetry competition competitor. I've won one slam, and I'm a hold that shit proudly.

I won one last year, but Dage is a different monster. You know, she just keeps on winning. She approaches poetry in similar ways I do in terms of bringing her sense of humor to the stage, as well as, you know, just a clear, like, love for hip-hop in terms of how she sneaks in rhymes and references within her work. Other favorite poets, a lot of people that are going to be actually opening for me Saturday. So there's this poet that I showed artwork from earlier. That dude, Jay, he's from Compton.

phenomenal word specialist. Like he loves to, he has a poem where he wrote from the perspective of a hoodie and you somehow feel the pain of a hoodie, the idea of being left in the closet, not thought about used, dirty, nobody thinks about the hoodie. And the way he does that shit is like beautiful. Akbar Siamsson, my joy. Edwin Bodney is a legend. I love Edwin Bodney.

They are like an angel in this poetry shit. There's just, there's too many people to list, Rachel. That's just like immediately off the top of my head. There's probably people that are hearing this like, Yo, Kerm, why don't you mention me? All the people that be at DPL at Radicalhood Library, I'll fuck with them heavy. I'll start there.

Kerm? Yes, I told you that I was going to do this. What's up? And I have to get you to do it. Okay. Before we get you out of here, the book is, He'll My Heroes. All right.

So Super Power, Kerm, Joint Poems by Jonathan Kerma. Yes, sir. This is one of the most fantastic, really talented people. people that I know. I want you guys to go out and get this book. But can you do a little bit of walking contradiction for people? Oh, yeah. I got you with that. All right.

It goes like this. I'm a walking contradiction. Bell hooks on my bookshelf. Future on my playlist. I'm a walking contradiction. Love my mama, but hate it when she calls. Hate my daddy,

but we love it if he called. Fuck, nigger. I'm a free thinker. But my mind feels like a prison. I'm a big dreamer. Still I see him shrink as I sink to my wake I hate liars, but lie awake every single night. I lie to myself. When I say everything is okay, I lie to my mama.

Anytime I pretend that God is a man, I lie to God. Anytime I tell her, she is fair, I lie to you. Anytime I pretend that I know God is real, I lie to me. Anytime I pretend that this universe wasn't created by somebody. Like, all these beautiful colors didn't come from someone's palette. Like there wasn't a specially selected shade of bold brown pick to paint this perfect fucking pigmented skin I got on me and I do got that shit. Oh no. Like there isn't a violet hue of irony with every brushstroke of hardship painted in my life.

Like God wasn't doing her thing when she painted in the sunset. Like, come on now. Okay, orange. I'm a walking contradiction. I alternate between healed and humble by breakthroughs fumbled and stumbled. I'm a walking contradiction. Hold up. Wait a minute.

in it, let me put contradictions in it. Did I mention I hate plagiarist? But I'm privy to play with another poets, patterns, prose, flows, melodies, metaphors, mythologies, and makeshift. I'm a walking contradiction. I don't really fuck with white folks. But like, I grew up in a white neighborhood, so I'm used to smiling and nodding at motherfuckers as a form of protection up in Trader Joe's like, Good Morning, sir.

Beautiful day we're having. I live here. Don't call the cops with me, Bradley. That's what my eyes say. I'm a walking contradiction. I don't need no help from the white men. man, but I'll gladly take some help in the form of reparations, you know what I'm saying? Like, they can at least pay me $200 or something for scam me down than Trader Joe's earlier.

That shit was kind of traumatic. It felt like his eyes were holding my soul at gunpoint or some shit. I'm a walking, contradiction. Like, how the fuck? Am I playing the Kool's album, kill my landlord? While I'm writing checks for that bitch-ass nigger, I call my landlord. How the fuck I'm screaming? Fuck a corporation with a fire in my soul when I got Taco Bell burning and bubbling sitting inside my stomach.

And a Levi stamp covering my ass like, how to fuck? Am I saying free Palestine and fuck ice while my tax dollars are tap dancing for the oppressor? I'm a walking contradiction. Screaming self-love out loud and hating self-in-silence. Giving depression the middle finger, but forgetting to fight back violent when it forcibly finger fucks me into the fetal position, free of land and the land of the free, but shackled by broken promises, profits, pills, pornography, poisons, private prisons, plastics, predators, pedophiles, poverty, patriarchy, police power, political power, white power, nuclear power, gunpowder, nigger shit.

I'm a walking contradiction. I would never die for America, but that's that poem. Thank you so much for this, man. Oh, my. Oh, Kerm! So good. Oh, my God. Well, you guys, when I told you that Kerm was tamer.

You probably thought you was just talking about the same guy that you heard on the Midnight Boys with us the same. I am the same nigga though. Like, same nigga. You're different. And I don't want you to be afraid. Take the compliment. I'll take it. I'll take it.

I'll take it. You're different. Thank you, bro. And you're touched and you're blessed and you're gifted. I'm proud to know you, man. And I'm proud to hold this in my hands. You guys go get this book and support Kerm. Please do.

you guys right now. There's 250 copies he got pressed up, right? This should sell out. I'm asking the higher learning audience to pour into your community and support people's talent. And Vance in the book. We did a full interview for the forward

and afterward Van's opinions on the heroes and villains in his life and all that stuff. So if you fuck with Van, you fuck with me either way, you should get that book. Help a starving artist out. I will say this.

Just so you guys know. Oh, yeah. I know exactly what I'm saying. When I'm asked about my heroes and my political world, I say Malcolm X, Robert Daniels, and Noam Chomsky.

This was before, guys. Pre, yeah, that was pre. Okay. That was pre stuff. Yeah. It was like, you know, like six months ago, give him a break.

Give me a break. Yeah. Just text that part out. Curve, my brother. My brother, thank you so much. And thank you, thank you for joining us on hiring.

Oh, no. Thank you. for being here. I'm literally I'm adding to my cart right now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Right. Everybody get a copy of Kerms book. Go out there and support our brother. Not just

because it's him but because he's amazing. All right. We got to go. Look, there have been people that have been saying what that look was because I stumbled over my words. No, no, it's not because you stumbled. It's when you said people are going to be saying. So we haven't covered some of the more important happenings in the world

as of late. Iran is still raging. By the way, I have a thought and I have to get this thought out before we leave. Tucker Carlson is the biggest pussy in the world. He is the biggest pussy in the world. Tucker Carlson is. The whole Iran thing is going on. Tucker Carlson is incredibly critical of the United States going to war, of Marco, Rubio, all the neocons of Israel, of Netanyahu, of anyone that's involved in anything that he had Joe Ken on his show. I watched a little bit of it. They're talking about all of this stuff as it relates to the war in Iran, how terrible this is,

who they're blaming for it, and all of that. The one person that Tucker Carlson, as he continues to directly criticize this administration for a litany of different things. The one person that he will not criticize. He will criticize Ted Cruz. He will criticize Huckabee. He will criticize Israel. He will criticize the rest of the neocon class that's in there.

He'll criticize the lobby. He'll criticize all of that. It all stops short at Donald Trump. And that makes him the biggest pussy in the world to me because that tells me that the intellectual framework for what Tucker Carlson is saying, does it matter? It doesn't matter because he refuses to have any substantive criticism of the person that is making these decisions. Now, you can call them all kinds of things, but he backs up everything he says,

but with what he thinks are these salient points, but he is so scared to cross Donald Trump. There are other people who are not like this that are on the right or have been talking, whatever who might listen to if it's Dave Smith, if it's Sagar, if there's any of these other guys that say no, Donald Trump has let us all down, whatever. Carlson continues to make the case about the Iran war and about other things regarding America's relationship with Israel, right? He continues to make this case, but he will not in any substantive way have anything negative or critical to say about Donald Trump.

And it is now, now if you're listening to him and you're not asking him to do that, you're letting Tucker Carlson play in your face. I've never seen a bigger coward. Seriously. All right, anyway. All right. No, no, no. Yeah, we're going to talk about it.

You're right. We haven't been talking about it. We'll talk about it. We might get back because we got. We got somebody, we got a special guest on the show Monday, Emma Viglin's on the show. So we might get back to some more serious things. But we've been having fun playing in the mud a little bit.

All right. Take things off. We do not stop learning. I am Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Hey, guys.