Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Overturning of Roe v. Wade

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Van and Rachel react to the Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v. Wade and discuss how people will be immediately affected (13:42), talk about the political and actionable plan going forward (23:26), and compare the Democratic Party to fake Jordans (40:59). Plus, constitutional law professor Caroline Mala Corbin joins to help make some sense of the landmark decision (43:39). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Caroline Mala Corbin Producers: Trudy Joseph and Donnie Beacham Jr. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors, what is up? Highland is on. It is I Van Leighton Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Let's get right to it. The big deal of the day is the Supreme Court. The Empire, the Galactic Empire, has overturned Roe v. Waite.

At a Supreme Court, five to four decision on Friday, Roe versus Wade, the landmark ruling that established the constitutional right to abortion in 1973 was overturned. Justice Samuel Alito, as expected, wrote the majority of opinion it tossed out as well as a 1992 Supreme Court decision upholding abortion rights in a case known as Planned Parenthood versus Casey. It was five to four with John Roberts voting with the majority to uphold the Mississippi abortion restrictions but did not approve of overturning Roe all together.

The three, the courts three liberal justices filed a dissenting opinion to the ruling, which obviously ended up in protesters in D.C., but we've seen protests everywhere with the police dealing some of their Gestapo tactics, stamping out. and manhandling people everywhere all across the country. Rachel? I don't know, Van. I don't know. I don't want to give a reaction because I feel like we knew this was coming and now here it is.

We're actually talking about it and it's established. It's the law of the land. I don't know if I was preparing myself for it or not. Maybe there was some bit of hope that the reason that we, the draft was released earlier was to make they were going to change some things. Maybe a justice was going to change their mind. Maybe they weren't going to go all the way and they were just going to lessen abortion rights but just not completely handed over to the states at this point and overturned Roe v. Wade.

I don't know what I thought was going to happen. Obviously, I'm upset. Obviously, I'm sad. I'm disappointed. Obviously, I'm thinking about the future. And, like, it's tough. Do I want to bring some, a child? That's all I kept thinking about.

This country is terrible to live in at the moment. And it seems like each day we're getting more and more of our rights taken away from us. And when it comes to creating life and wanting to bring a child into this world, do I want to bring my child into this? I've really thought about this a lot. I don't know if that's a selfish decision, but I keep thinking, what kind of world is my child going to live in? I still don't know if I've completely wrapped my head around it. It doesn't make sense to me. And I don't deal well with things that aren't logical and don't make sense.

I understand how we got here. I understand how the court made its decision or why, right? That it's rooted in moral beliefs and their own political affiliations. But I just, I can't believe we're here. And not even just where we're here, where we're headed. And that's why I struggle with bringing a child into this type of world. I think you hit on the first thing that has to change. First of all, your point about bringing the child into the world is very well taken.

But I would like to give you a little comfort that this world. is never a place for children. But you know what I mean. I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. Just say you want to be Uncle Vann. That's totally fine. If you were a little black kid born anytime before 1980.

Very true. It's never been a really good time to be a little black kid born into America. So go ahead and bring those kids into the world. We'll protect them and we'll love them up and we'll rub them on the head. And we won't let them watch the news until they're 35. To anyone who's feeling that way, we have to build more villages to protect more children. And I think that that's incumbent upon us to do. To something else that you said, I think that we all have to take a really long look at this.

And I'm going to bring up Ebony in this. And Ebony's going to get so mad that I bring her up. The first rule in dealing with my sister for me was to realize what she was capable of. Okay. Ebony has a bad temper. If something happens on accident to Ebony, she will take it like you meant to do it. If you spill something on her, she'll turn around, as a child, she'll turn around and bat you in your shit. if you jump out and scare her and she didn't like it,

you're just playing around, she will fuck you up. This was Ebony as a kid. She's a mean, tough little protector. And sometimes, like my dad, she would fly into,

you know, I'll punch you in your shit. All right? And I aggravated the shit out of her. So she sometimes didn't know when I was playing and when I was serious. So let's be real. Fair enough. Okay.

Yeah. But for me, in dealing with my sister, I have to learn that she will fuck you up. I had to learn to believe it. I have to learn to stop being like,

damn, why did you do that and understand that she's going to do that? Right? And so then I had to, at some point, be willing to go there with her as well. I had to be willing to stand ground. I had to be willing to sometimes be the aggressor. I had to be willing to set boundaries

and rules between her and I so that we could understand each other better live and love each other. I don't give a fuck about the living and the loving with the other side now, but we have to believe it all. We didn't believe it. And they knew we didn't. They knew we didn't believe it.

And there's so many other things that they're still cooking up that they are well aware that we don't think they'll do. And this is, This is a call to everyone, man. Look, there are so many things that we should have gone to the mattresses about before this. We should have gone to the mattresses about the George Floyd Violence and Belize in that. We should have gone to the mattresses about it.

We should have gone to the mattresses about that. If you don't know what go to the mattresses means, it's from the Godfather. Okay. Sometimes when you're in war, you have to hold up in a safe house. and all you have is a mattress to sleep in. Go to the mattresses. The mafia says it. Hey, pull out the mattresses.

Life's going to get a little harder, but you got to fight. We're there. We're there. We're there. And we should have been there so many other times. Right? And we've talked about this.

But of course we didn't believe it. All they have is belief. They use their belief as a compass to dictate every single thing that they do. So the first thing have to do is we have to believe and accept and expect the worst from the people who have now revealed themselves as not Americans that we share our community in our country with that we might have disagreements with.

That is over. That's gone. There was a time where, hey, my neighbor is this and I'm not. and, you know, there was a time, hey, we get together, that's over. That's done. There's a faction of Americans that represent political enemies. And they cannot be negotiated with. They have to be defeated.

And anybody, anyone who is still playing the rules or still playing the game as if it's 2013, 2011 to 2008, 1995. can't anymore. Gotta beat them. There should never be another Republican president in the future of America as far as I'm concerned. They have lost the ability

to effectively govern the will of the people. They want what they want. They don't want what we want. And we have to beat them. All very true. But it's something I want to point out to is obviously when something like this happens,

Everyone's looking at who should they blame? Who should they look at? Whose fault is it? How did we get here? It's 50 years in the making. And naturally, it's Republicans versus Democrats. Democrats are more liberal in this regard. Republicans are more conservative.

But not I think I know. Part of the reason that this happened, part of the reason that it wasn't necessarily paid attention to. It's not just blaming the Republicans. We've got to look at Democrats, is because there are a number of Democrats who are pro-life. Sure. And we have to pay attention to that. Just because you're a Democrat doesn't mean that you're aligned in every single thing that the Democrats are pushing forward or those who vote for Democrats are pushing forward.

And that's something you really need to pay attention to. There are a number of moderate Democrats who, the reason they weren't pushing this or paying attention to this or it wasn't on the, top of their agenda is because they're pro-life and not pro-choice. And a woman's right was never something that they were pushing forward. And this is why you have to pay attention to who's in office. Don't assume because they're blue or they're red, that they're this or they're that. Many Democrats were not pushing this forward. This is almost something new in the Democratic Party where it was pro-choice, pro-choice, poor choice. It wasn't at the top of the agenda. And now you have to start looking at, okay, the rules have changed. The law has changed.

So now I'm looking at other politicians. I'm looking at senators. I'm looking at Congress people. And what are they aligned with? As our other rights are going to be challenged, what are they aligned with? Because just because they're blue or red doesn't mean that they're voting for the same things that the party as a whole wants. We have to pay, this is so important to pay attention who's in office. And I think we are learning the hard way. Now, think I know, we're learning the hard way about what. what it really means to put somebody in office and what they really stand for. Because a mansion, mm-mm. Mm-mm. So, yeah, look, you're right. And this is what I would say. It doesn't matter if you're pro-life or pro-choice. It matters if you're pro-woman, right, for me.

And what I mean by that is this. If someone, if you're playing a political game and someone asks you how you feel about abortion and you say, hey, I'm pro-life, I wish that people would keep babies and not, whatever, you know, whatever, do your thing. You want to talk about the Bible and we shouldn't kill babies. The Bible says, you know, I'm sick of pointing out contradictions. It doesn't do anything. Point out a contradiction. This has nothing to do.

This is a political power grab that's been a generation in the making, a generation plus in the making, and that there were people asleep with the wheel while it was happening. And that's the reality. Or it didn't care. And so for me, what I'm looking at now is, sure, the only thing I care about is whether or not you are pro a woman being able to decide her bodily autonomy, whether or not you're pro, a woman being able to access her own body and decide what happens in it. I can care less about your personal beliefs.

I don't care what your God tells you to do. I care about whether or not you want to live in a free America. That's all I care about. I don't fucking care anything like that. And if it's anything short of that, it's up with you. That's it. It's up with you. For everyone, everyone that's out there, everyone that's out there, everyone that's like, it is,

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. enough in voting, let's talk about the brass tax. 20 states have laws that can be used to restrict the status of abortion. States with trigger laws. 13 states have laws which are set to go into effect automatically or through swift state action because of federal road protections no longer applying. Those states are Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, my shame,

Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah. in Wyoming. Pre-Roe laws. Five additional states had an abortion ban on the books before Roe versus Wade became law. Alabama, Arizona, Michigan, West Virginia, and Wisconsin, some of these pre-row bans are currently subject to legal challenges. There are six-week bans. Finally, a handful of states without trigger laws that had enacted bans on abortion six weeks after conception, shall say, which were not yet in effect. Georgia, Iowa, Ohio, and South Carolina. Texas also had a six-week ban. And that was already in effect before Friday. Of course, we know that these abortions, abortion restrictions disproportionately impact people of color. Why?

Because everything disproportionately impacts people of color. Of course. Less access, less freedom of movement. Yeah. Less, you're going to have lower incomes. People aren't going to be able to get to places and circumvent some of these restrictions

that are needed to get to places that can provide abortions. You might be asking yourself, what do you do now? Well, tap in. There's a Twitter handle called At Abortion Funds. It is a network of grassroots organizations building power to remove financial, logistical, cultural, and political barriers to abortion access in a NNAF abortion funds. It's a great, great, great Twitter handle.

should go check them out. Rachel, have you given any thoughts of what you're going to do? I mean, I guess my, when you asked me that question, my immediate thought is, what can I do? Right? So other than educating myself on how I can help, how I can, you know, I've actually had a lot of people ask me for resources of where they can go, of how they can support, how they can help people. And if you look at the map, van named all these different states that have trigger laws, all these different states that had the six week ban. And you look at that map. And if you're in the South and your socioeconomic status does not allow you to have the means to leave the state, it is incredible how far you have to go to seek an abortion if that is what you so desire to do, you choose to do. It's incredible. So it's more for me, I guess, about finding out how I can help, you know, support or donate to a cause. It's helping people find their way to clinics if that's what they choose to do. It's educating myself on all the ramifications of this decision and how this affects people who not just want abortions, miscarriages as well, who need D&Cs for life-saving procedures. There's so much more to this. So I guess I'm in a place right now where I'm educating myself. Once I educate myself, I need to find resources. And then I also need to just stay in tune to what's happening right now and how we can put people in place who can actual further the agenda of what the majority of this country wants to do.

That protects us and our rights. I do want to caution people as far as one thing that's concerned. Okay. They're not playing with y'all. Okay. they're not joking around. It's not funny to them, right? What you're dealing with is a radical political cult who've let the zealots within them take over their mainstream thinking.

So when I say they're not joking with you, that's what I mean. So what I mean is before you do anything in the name of helping, I want you to think about how it'll affect yourself. I want you to think about how it'll affect people around you. if you are on Twitter or another social media app talking about your willingness to host women that might be willing to get abortions to pay for them to help them in any way, I want you to understand that you are making yourself a target from people who are anxious to find some way to prosecute you, to find some way to penalize you for helping carry out what they think is an unforgivable sin. So I want everyone who wants to help, I'm asking you to be smart about the way that you do this.

I personally believe that this is going to be a witch hunt of massive proportions in the next couple of years. I think they're going to be abortion squadrons. They're going to be sectors of police and law enforcement that are in these states that are going to have funds diverted specifically to making sure women do not get abortions. And they are going to find every single way. They're going to try to try cases of mail and wire fraud if you are sending money to women or if you are mailing abortion pills to women, they're going to go as far as they can go

in criminalizing this as a deterrent to stop it from happening. I know that they're going to do this because they've already done it. They've gone as far off. They fucking overturned row. So I want everybody out here to be certain. These are not jokes on Twitter.

This is fucking real. everybody wants to help. But what we need are resources and there are people out here that are doing it. And we need real grassroots unity on how to do this. So don't expose yourself to something that don't put yourself in the boiling pot if you don't have to. We have to be smart about this. And I would encourage, I'm not trying to preach and I'm not trying to lecture. I would encourage everyone to be smart and be dialed in about this because these people are going to fuck with you. They're going to fuck with you in a real way if they think they can. And when they do it, they're not just going to do it quietly. They're going to hold you up

in front of everyone and make an example of you. You're not dealing with rational Americans. the zealots have one on that side and we have to be smart, accurate, and moved with deadly precision in order to win. I mean, I have nothing to say to that. It's all very true. And beyond the overturning Roe v. Wade, they literally created vigilancies in Texas by allowing them the opportunity to hunt down people who were giving abortions. This is before Roe V.A. was even over. was even overturned to sue them, to go after them, to find Uber drivers or lift drivers or

anybody taking someone to go get an abortion. It's already there. If they were doing that pre overturning this decision, imagine what they're going to do after. But it was civil. We're talking criminal. And like Van said, they're absolutely going to make an example out of it. And you have to keep saying this. And I know we might be being repetitive, but it's not going to stop with this decision. They're going to do it to use to take other rights away. And they'll do it in the same manner and they'll go after you if they're able to actually overturn those decisions. So, yes. Very well said. Biden talked about it. He said it's a very sad day. Don't want to hear it.

We got to play it. You got to play it. Here's the argument from the president. The only way we can secure a woman's right to choose. The balance that existed is for Congress to restore the protections of Roe v. Wade as federal law. No executive action from the president can do that. And if Congress, as it appears, lacks the votes to do that now, voters need to make their voices heard. This fall, you must elect more senators and representatives who will codify women's right to choose in the federal law. once again. Elect more state leaders to protect this right at the local level.

We need to restore the protections of Roe as law of the land. We need to elect officials who will do that. This fall, Roe is on the ballot. Personal freedoms are on the ballot. The right to privacy, liberty, equality. They're all on the ballot. Yeah. Okay.

So in Texas, follow the Texas Equal Access Fund. Um, we're going to have, we're going to, on our social media, we're going to list, uh, we're going to list a group of, uh, we're going to make a list, Chessay, of places that you can donate money to because they need to be overly funded. I'm going to call, I'm going to call upon something right now. After the death of George Floyd, uh, Black Lives Matter got $90 million. And we've talked at great length about the Black Lives Matter global, uh, fund and what they've done with their money. We need to be as invested in this.

These places need to be flush with cash. Okay? Yeah. The Democrats have sent out a lot of fundraising stuff. That's fine. They're trying to win elections. I get it. Maybe if they win elections, something will change.

Who knows? But the rest of these organizations need to be flush with cash. flush with cash. They need to be rolling in money. Rolling in money. In every state where this is, these people don't need to have to ask for a dime. I know that times are hard,

but if you can give $2, $3, $4, $5, think about it. Think about it. Think about if you can give five bucks. That's almost. That's almost a gallon of gas. That just sounds so depressing. Nuts.

Fucking nuts. Okay. Biden said this administration would take actions to try to ease access to abortions like defending women who want to travel to another state for an abortion and protecting access to contraception and abortion pills. But ultimately, it rests with Congress and voters to protect abortion rights. So the way this stands right now is you probably have to elect two more Democratic senators and hold the House in order for there to be a vote to, Cotafira. All right, we're going to talk to Caroline Mala Corbyn about the constitutional impact of this in a second. Or the ramifications of the decision and how we got here in the second. The Democrats call to vote in the wake of this makes you feel in what way? What else are Democrats going to say, right? They're not, what are they, we, we fucked up and now we need you guys to, I don't, I don't know. Of course they're going to tell you to vote. That's always. the fallback, right? Not we should have been more proactive about this instead of reactive. We should have had our plan in place because we knew that this was coming. They're not going to say that. They're going to hide behind blaming the Republicans that this is their fault. Okay, well, how did the Republicans get in so much with so much power? Is it because you didn't have a strong

stance on some of these issues? Is it because you didn't put women's rights first? You didn't do, that's, of course they're going to say, but when you ask me my reaction and I laugh and I'm hesitated to speak. It's because what else are they going to say? That's put it back on us, right? Almost as if it's your fault, these politicians are the ones that are in place. And how you can change that is voting. No, how about you actually step up and do something, which is why when you said you were going to play Biden, I didn't really care to hear from him. I don't really care to hear from any politicians because thought worries you might be wondering why. I mean, I do care to hear from politicians, but I actually want to hear what you want to do.

and Thought Warriors might be saying, why don't they have a politician coming on this podcast? Guess what, you guys? We actually tried. Numerous emails were sent out to hear from politicians to try to get their response on where we are, not even how we got here because we get that, but what are we going to do? What's your plan of action to attack it? And your plan of action can't be telling us simply to just go out to the polls and vote. You're getting disenfranchised voters at this point because we feel hopeless.

and they feel like there's nothing that they can do. And you're telling us that if we get out and vote, things will change, things to seem to be getting worse. So that can't simply be the response. You're the person in power. How are you going to do something? So when we reached out to these senators and congresspeople that we wanted to talk to, we kept getting the same message that they were busy, that they couldn't do it. And they simply told us to, you know what, have a nice weekend. I don't know about you thought.

Did you have a great weekend? Did you have a great weekend with this decision coming out? No. But we're supposed to have a great weekend and pretend and move away as if every or move about like everything is normal when literally the entire landscape of our country is changing decision by decision with this court. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I feel about voting right now when people tell us to just get out and vote. Biden shut down the calls to expand the court, pack the court. We'll also ask Professor Corbyn about that and what that entails. there have been several Democrats who have called for this to expand the court,

the pact of court. Of course, AOC is one of them. Yelan Omar is one of them. Ed Markey, Elizabeth Warren, all of these people have called for that. The White House has said they are against that. This is what I need from the Democrats. First of all, we do have to vote. Unfortunately, we do.

Like, it's just the way it goes. We have to vote. We have to vote. And we know, but we know that. Right? Like, we know that. So, yeah, we have to vote. Okay.

So this could be a, situation to where, and I still believe this was a politically risky move for the Republicans. I still actually believe this. I still actually believe that this was a politically risky move for the Republicans, right? I think that the Democrats didn't have very much to vote for, if we're being honest. But now, obviously, they do. And when you see protests all over America, when you see a specific group of people, who are energized being the youth, right?

They can be energized to vote or get out there and maybe change things and wrestle some power back to some people that might be able to make some change. But this is what we need for the Democrats. We need a plan of action. We need to know, just saying that we need two more senators

is no good because there are places where we have no shot at getting no senators, right? There are places that are so deeply red that we are not going to be, be able to overcome what's going on there. We need to know which races are in play. We need to know who needs the money. We need a plan of action, a step by step, political plan that people who want to make American change can follow. We need to know where to vote. By the way, we need to know which Democratic, we need to know, we need pledges from

candidates that they will vote to codify after this because some of them wouldn't, right? We need to know where the opportunities are. We need to know who to throw the money to. We need a precise plan to execute and to hit politically from whatever thoughtmakers that they had over there, whatever political leaders that they, they have over there, whoever the new axle rod is, whoever the guys are over there that can get shit done, we need to have an understanding of exactly what is being asked of American citizenship in order to wrestle back the rights of women.

And we needed to be laid out plainly. And the reality is just saying, go out there and vote, well, the reality, okay, vote how, when and where. I understand what's on the ballot. But if we need two more senators, where are our best shots at getting them? And I don't need to hear this from like Nate Silver or the people at 538 or CNN politics. I need to hear this from the Democrats.

There needs to be a battle plan because we're obviously fighting the war. So cool. We need to vote. Fantastic point. Yeah, we need to vote. Just let us know. let us know because I'll go down there. Tell me right now that there's a Senate seat that that's,

that's trending close in fucking hell. And I'll go, I'll go down there and send out some mailers and go door to door in a seventh level of hell at this particular point. It is, that is, it's, I'm clapping because that's such a fantastic point. And it seems like something that the Democratic,

should have already done because obviously we focus on big races and big states like or swing states right we focus on Georgia and that's particularly because of stacey abrams and how she's been out there you know even before this past year we're focusing on Texas i'm from Texas i'm talking about the governor's race i'm talking about how important it is but if the power is thrown back to the states that is such an important point that then tell us what states and what races we're focused on. Tell us what cities we're focused on. If that's who's going to have this type of power, then we need to know where we need to target it. And you're right, we don't. I can name a few places, but I can't name everything. And that's such a good point. And it's so who do we need to talk to

to to tell them to do that? Because it seems like this is so simple. So simple for them, they have the resources to put this together and let people know. Biden put it on your website. White House put it on it. Like somebody put this on their website. It should already. be together, right? The Democrats should be literally, we should know these candidates intimately. So true.

We should be able to ask them questions. They're like all the fundraising money that they're talking about. Americans can no longer afford to be, for their political knowledge to be insufficient. It can't. We can't afford that anymore.

We can't vote and then leave it up to y'all. We should have never been that in the first place. It's just not the way the country functions. It's like it's not. We should have been politically responsible way before this. But right now, there's a mandate to understand what the goal is. And the goal here is to ensure the rights of women. And very soon, a lot of other people.

Okay. AOC, she had thoughts on what the Biden is. should do next is what aOC had to say i think what we need to do is show the american people that when they give the democratic party power and when they actually do vote for us that we will be using and we are willing to use the power that they do give us um in order to merit increased expansions in our majority so in terms of what i think the the presidential administration should be able to do we have many ideas we have um some ideas coming from senator warren signed a letter along with 25 other Democratic senators asking President Biden to explore opening

health care clinics on federal lands in red states in order to help people access the health care and abortion services that they need. We also must, and President Biden did indicate that he was going to start looking into expanding abortion access via the pill as well as educational efforts henceforth, but also what I believe that the president and the Democratic Party needs to come to terms with is that this is not just a crisis of Roe, this is a crisis of our democracy. The Supreme Court has dramatically overreached its authority. We had two conservative senators in the United States Senate, Senator Manchin and Senator Collins, come out with a very explosive allegation that several Supreme Court justices.

misled them in their, during their confirmation hearings and in the lead up to their confirmation, this is a crisis of legitimacy. We have a Supreme Court justice whose wife participated in January 6th and who used his seat to vote against providing documents that potentially led to evidence of such to investigators in Congress. She seems fired up. And she should be. A question. She says that President Biden is looking into clinics on federal land.

He's looking into providing resources in regards to the pill. How long is he going to look? Like, that's my question. Can he just say he's going to do it? I think what's happening there is they've probably been exploring options since the opinion leaked. And whoever leaked, the opinion is an American hero. in my opinion. But I think they're probably looking at options.

I think what they're doing with every political operative does, which is trying to find out what they can sell the best. You know, these people do what they do based upon what they think is going to make them the most popular. So if you ask me, I think the Democrats, in the White House will take a second, take a beat. And they'll use this time to dip a great big thermometer into the well of American emotion. When they take out that thermometer and they see what the thermometer reads, they'll then react based upon how hot or cold it is.

That's why. Can't get distracted by the BET Awards. Can't get distracted by whatever's happening. and I can't get distracted by my excitement. Versus. Or love and thunder. Can't get distracted by any of those things. We have to maintain our rage.

If not maintain it, channel it into something useful. But you can't not be mad. They are depending on your return to normalcy. They always do. They kill a black man on TV. Kill a black man. It goes around. They're depending on your vacations coming up.

Your brunch is coming up. They can't maintain it. You know why? Because they can't. They stay mad. They stay engaged. And God damn it, it's not a great way to live. But it's our reality for right now.

We got to meet it. We got to meet it for right now. How damn it, serious. Oh, my gosh. That's what we're serious saying what we're all saying. Yeah. So for me, I think politicians are doing what they do, which is to politic. Did you get fundraising emails from the Democrats after this happened?

I know. I saw that they went out. I don't know. I don't know. I got it. I'm going to look at Beto's and see because I heard his went out. And that should have gotten something for him. I saw that.

Yeah, I got him. I mean, look, that didn't really bother me like that. Yeah, people were mad about it. I wasn't really tripping. This is what they do. You know, this is what they do. They're like, we need more money.

You probably do need more money. It's just, oh, yeah, I did get it. It's just so fucked, man. It's so fucked up. But look, unfortunately, and I'm going to be honest with you. Let me be honest with all the thought wars.

I'm going to have to get off the Democrats back for a second. I am. I don't like my team. I'm not a Democrat, but I'm a liberal. I'm going to have to, it's just, it's, it's the paradox of being black. But I'm going to have to. Get that. Could you try again?

Is you really tripping today? I'm going to have to I can't dissuade anyone from voting at this point No, have we ever? We haven't, but, you know, that's the way it's taken. We just say hold people accountable. You guys read through the lines. We're not saying that, but you can be upset with someone

and hold them accountable and still encourage people to get out and vote. It's wild to think that we wouldn't be voting. I'm sorry, that's wild. Like, just when I'm out, They pull me back in. It's against everything that we stand for to not vote. I'm sorry. This makes no sense.

I have to find the sweet spot. And this is the reality of it. I have to find the sweet spot between holding people accountable and understanding that the Democrats are basically like these shoes that I got when I was eight years old, right? I wanted Jordans. Oh, God. What did you get? They were called hoops.

Now, here's the thing about the hoops. I don't even know what mom and them found the hoops at. So they were one of a kind. I'm not sure where the hoops, where the hoops came from. And I would wear the hoops, right? And for some people, they didn't realize that they were fake Jordans. And I could walk around if people were far enough. and they would see the hoops

and they'd be like, oh shit, he got the white and gray Jordan's on. I'm like, oh, shit, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in school, upon further examination, people realize that the hoops were fucking trash. I never forget it. I never forget it, James Williams. Oh, shit, man.

We literally, we're in the, we're like, it's 88. It's like the, it's like the, I'm in like the third or fourth grade or something. Like, oh, man. Nah, man. Van got some fake Jordans on, man. No. I was like,

Van got some fake Jordans on. But it was only because they looked at the hoops super hard. The Democrats are like some hoops, man. Like, if you're far enough away, they seem like the good guys. They seem like the ones that, but really, if you look at them really hard,

you realize they're some fake Jordans. But right now, we can't get no real Jordans. They're not even out yet. We got to wear these hoops, man. Because these hoops are the only things that's going to stop us. These hoops are the only things that could stop us from stepping on glass. We just got to wear the fucking hoops. We got to like the hoops.

And this is fucked up. It's a great comparison. We got to like the hoops. It's a great comparison. Hoop-ass niggas. Let's talk to Caroline Mila Corbyn. Love her. Constitutional Law Perfector on the professor

on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways.

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All right, guys. We are now joined by constitutional law professor, Caroline Mala Corbyn. She's a frequent guest and contributor here at Higher Learning. and anytime we have her on, that means that there is great news. No. That means that as much as we like talking to her,

when we see her, we have deep, deep, deep, deep questions about the state of the United States of America as it relates to the Constitution. And obviously, as lighthearted as I'm being right now, We have reached the point that Professor Corbyn said we're going to reach where we are, as you put it, fucked. I have a lot of questions about what this means, but before we get to our questions, I'm sure Rachel does too. Tell us what this means to you.

This Supreme Court decision is like a nightmare I cannot wake up from. It's just so appalling as a woman who believes in women's equality and as a constitutional law professor who believes in the law. There is nothing good about this decision. When you say there's nothing good, I'm assuming you're not just talking about the decision, but the trickle-down effect that this decision will have in our country, right? I mean, just focusing on the consequences, the Supreme Court has said that the U.S. Constitution does not protect a women's right and an unwanted pregnancy. This means that states now have the power to force women to go through pregnancy. This is a denial of the absolute most basic economy. women cannot even control what happens to their body.

And if they can't control what happens to their body, they cannot control what happens to their legs. And this is the immediate consequence. So when you said as someone who believes in the rule of law, this decision troubles you. For people who don't know who are watching this, who are not as well versed in the Constitution as you are. Why do you feel like this decision

flies in the face of the rule of law? So the Supreme Court can and has overruled precedent, and sometimes it should, but there are rules for when it's appropriate. And the Supreme Court completely ignored those rules. And so its determination is not based on legal principles, but on political outcomes. They did not offer a single persuasive justification

under the existing rules for when it's appropriate to over the prior cases. And so it really looks like they're just using their power to get what they want instead of reasoning based on existing law. Do you think this will change the way decisions are made in the Supreme Court? Based on the reasoning you just gave, is this a telling sign of they're going to do things based on their morals, politics, rather than actually following or doing things within the confines of the law or precedent, I should say? I think it shows a real willingness to eliminate overall pieces they don't like. merely because they now have the votes to do so.

And I think there was another decision today where they did exactly that. And so school prayer has long been considered to violate the establishment laws. The government's not supposed to pray in school. And the Supreme Court just overruled precedent in a way and said, no, in this particular place, it's just fine. So the answer to your question is, do I think the court will continue along the path of remaking the law to fit its particular worldview rather than relying on legal principles? Yes, I think it will and it already has. Last question on the Supreme Court for me, and then I'll get to where we go from here, is this Supreme Court to you illegitimate?

That public opinion of the Supreme Court is at a real low. And I think its legitimacy really is put into question when people think it is driven by political calculations and their own prefer view rather than based on principle. So it's not just me who's questioning their legitimacy. I think it's large swaths of the American people. And it's a really important institution in our democracy, and it's a shame that people no longer respect. Here's my last question on the Supreme Court in regards to this. The concurring opinion from Clarence Thomas.

He was the only one to sign it. But how seriously should we take what he said in that opinion, even though he was the lone wolf now, what do you think that that means? And should we, is this something we should dismiss or really pay attention to? I think it, you don't even need to look at justice comments, this concurrence, what he basically says, I think not only this fundamental right is it found in the Constitution. I think there's a full list of fundamental rights that are not fun. in the Constitution and we should be overruling all kinds of cases.

The court's own reasoning provides a blueprint for eliminating further rights. Because what it argued is the only fundamental rights that we have are either those that are explicitly listed and named in the Constitution or rights that are deeply rooted in our nation's history and traditions. So if the people in 18th century didn't give us these rights, then we don't have them today. And that approach to fundamental rights is not only absurd, like why are we basing our rights today

on the racist, sexist, homophobic views of people in the 19th century, right? That approach is not only absurd, but it precludes most of, the rights we think really are important. Because frankly, the right to contraception is, according to this Supreme Court's view of history, probably not deeply rooted in our nation's history and tradition.

The right to same sex marriage, that's definitely not deeply rooted in our nation's history tradition. So our whole approach to fundamental rights is a really narrow, tramped, miserly approach. And it means that fumbling, right, that means that they can now, under their reasoning, eliminate many things that we consider essential to be autonomous equal people in this country.

So let's turn our attention to the White House now. The right has won this portion of the battle. They've waged the 50-year war on the row. and they have claimed victory. What is within the powers of the president to do right now to combat this? I've heard a couple of different things. I've heard using federal lands for abortion services. I know that the Hyde Amendment somewhat precludes that.

How do you get around Hyde in order to do that? Yeah, so the one thing it can't do, what the Supreme Court's decision, that the abortion is not protected by the U.S. Constitution. means that we can no longer turn to the federal constitution, maybe we can do something with federal law. So if it's federal law, it's not up to the president, it's up to Congress. So Congress would need to pass a law protecting reproductive rights.

And Congress includes both the House, which has already acted, but also the Senate, which refuses. to do anything about reproductive rights. So I'm not optimistic about a federal law. What can the president do via executive order? At the FDA, maybe to make it easier to get the abortion pill, because abortion can be done both surgically and via medicine. but it's not altogether clear how much president alone can do.

Someone suggested I've had some colleagues. I've had colleagues trying to come up with all kinds of creative suggestions, maybe establishing abortion clinics on federal property. I've heard about that, yeah. Right? I know, you know, anything it does. will be subject to challenge. And ultimately,

whether, ultimately, whether they have the authority or not to do such things is going to go for the same Supreme Court who really is hostile to abortion. So it's worth trying and you might have just gotten

me on a particularly pessimistic day, but as you know, I'm generally pessimistic. There are certainly some things worth trying, but I don't know what will succeed. That's what I was going to ask you is so there are options, but how likely is it that these options actually are established? I don't know. And frankly, I'm not an expert.

I can't see the future. I'm not an expert on politics, right? Because part of it is political will and part of it is whether the courts will allow it. And we have captured by conservatives in our federal government, and we have a lot of very conservative judges in our federal courts right now. So I certainly think it's worth trying everything we can. But I don't know at the federal level what's going to sustain. I think there's better, there's going to be, I think, a better path maybe at the local. level meaning at the state level. Because at least at this point, it will now be up to the states.

And so the more states that provide protection for abortion access, the more places in the country where it's available, which of course, some women, it will help women with means. but those women who don't have the money to take off work and find child support and make reservations, which are often women of color, poor women, abortion is not going to be available to. It's not going to be available. So either they will have children that they don't want or can't afford, or they're going to look for extra legal means to end their abortion.

in their sleep. So then what about the idea of packing the court to neutralize the rights hold on the judiciary? Right. So again, once the Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution, its view of the Constitution is the final word. So we can't, the only people who can overrule the Supreme Court's decision is the Supreme Court, unless we amend the Constitution, I should say. There are two paths to overruling this decision. One is to amend our Constitution, and the other is have a different Supreme Court that comes to a different conclusion. And so what you're suggesting is, well, maybe we can expand the court and fill it with people who are not so hostile to abortion if they're willing to distort the law to get the ends they want.

Nothing in this constitution dictates the number of people that are on the Supreme Court. So it is certainly possible to increase the number of people on the court. again, I don't see that happening at this time. Are for the other rights we think that are going to be challenged in the near future and this court is going to hear, are there cases like on the horizon already, ready, like, ripe? Like we knew this Mississippi case was going to be the one that the Supreme Court was hearing. there are other cases that are there challenging contraception or same-sex marriage that the Supreme Court could hear very, very soon? That is, I am not aware of any particular cases that are already teed up to address those particular issues. But I haven't actually specifically looked at that question.

So maybe there are some. And I just don't know that. I just may not know them. Why? You said that you don't see packing the court as a viable option here. I'm just politically understand that he's probably when. Constitutionally, it is absolutely. Why?

Why do you think politically? Why do you think politically? I don't think the president has expressed in truth in doing that. And again, you need to have a Congress that can enact a law that does it. And with the filibuster in place, there are not, I mean, if we can't even pass a law to protect abortion, which I think is much less of a reach for Congress, given that the vast majority of people in America actually were opposed to overruling the right. there's not political will to do that minimal action.

I don't think there's the political will to take the more drastic action of reconsidering the war. So we don't have, there's not the votes is what I'm trying to say. Right. So where is the disconnect on this and on some of this other stuff between the American public? I've watched really, really spark people. Ellie Mistle was on Tiffany Cross's show, and he said that you could get around hide by handing out abortion pills at the post office.

You could federalize, you could call into, to use federal lands all over the place. People are calling for the packet of the court. I see people bringing up the fact that FDR in 1937 threatened the Supreme Court with expanding the court after they threatened Social Security. As part of, you know, obviously, changed the world and New Deal and all of that stuff,

or at least change the country. Where is there, are we the victims of misinformation or people emotional and just spouting off? Or none of these things, viable options? Is the White House powerless here? Again, many of them we require an act of Congress. And an act of Congress means you need to have 60 people in the Senate on board. And we don't have 60 people on board.

And you might say the Senate does not represent the people of America. And you would be right, given that many very small states have. have the same representation as states like New York and California, which have, you know, many, many times people in their state. And that's the structure of our government right now. And it can change. We have midterms coming up. So vote. Oh, Caroline, you're going to.

Yes, the people who represent your views in the office. Caroline, you're going to piss so many people off. You're going to piss so many people off. If you tell us to go vote, man. I know. I'm sorry. The voter suppression. I know.

We can have a question. Caroline, as a law professor talking to your constitutional law students, what do you say? What do you say? I mean, it's so. grim? I mean, you're teaching them about the Constitution and the Supreme Court seems to be playing with it and interpreting it in a way that's not right? What do you say to your students as they come into your classroom? And I mean, it's the summer now, but you know. Yeah. I mean, in the past, I have always tried to highlight how.

the court has offered reasons for its decisions and sometimes those reasons are persuasive and sometimes they are not. I have always emphasized though that the

court like any other branch is about power. Who has the power? And who's in control? And who doesn't? And how these decisions often re-inscribe the power of those who already have it and perpetually the powerlessness of those who don't have it. And that is part of our constitutional legacy as well. But the advantage

of teaching law students is that these are the people who are going to go out and the laws and make the laws. And these are students who are going to become the judges. So hopefully a better understanding of what's at stake might temper their own engagement with the law. Okay. From last question for me. And we really appreciate you joining us on one of the-

I should have come with a list of, like, here are things that could happen, right? No, no, you're... I just, I'm not saying. No, no. We're not feeling optimistic about it. So one thing I do want to say, I do want to say this. We are never going to return to the era of back-alley coat hanger abortions. That is not our future.

And that is not our future because our medical landscape has changed. Because now we have available, which we did not have available, the last time the abortion wasn't protected, is we have the ability to end a pregnancy by medicine. And so there are going to be networks created to get the pills to women. one way or another. And so I think the strongest possibility, the best approach, and I don't know whether it's going to be federal government,

doing something with the FDA, saying you can't ban these skills, or whether it's going to be states that make it really easy to get the medicine in their state, or whether it's going to be networks, people who have states towards legal, mail to people who are then going to mail it to other women in states where it's banned.

It's going to be available one way or another somehow. I don't know how easily via medical abortion. So I just, I'm trying to find some, something to leave people with. So that's going to be an option, maybe extra legal, but it'll be there. Okay, okay. Well, that leads me actually two questions.

Number one, have the Democrats or let me not say the Democrats. Let me say the pro-choice wing of American politics. Have they passed and punted on opportunities to codify Roe in the last 50 years? you hear this common refrain that there were chances to codafiro and these chances were either missed or not prioritized by the pro-choice arm of American politics in the last 50 years. How true is that? Second part to that question is from a legal and constitutional standpoint, what's the best way for us to move forward now that this, attack has happened and been successful. I'm not sure.

Maybe, I don't know if the votes were there to talk about it. Okay. Okay. More of a constitutional law professor than a political scientist. Sure. So, again, I don't, I can't answer that with confidence. It may be that there was an opportunity and there may have been other priorities or may they may have been in this opportunity.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I will say that I don't think until really recently anyone believed that the court would actually overrule row. And frankly, if Obama had been able to appoint a justice as he was supposed to, it would not have been overruled. I mean, this is really, the court's decision is really a tremendously radical departure. And usually the Supreme Court works incrementally if it works at all. So it's just, it's hard to explain how much of an outlier this kind of decision is. and I think that's not really not really no no no no no it absolutely is because it's shocking how willing they are to jettison not only prior law but the precedent on precedent right it's ignoring precedent on two levels it's ignoring precedent on the actual substantive rules about abortion and it's ignoring precedent. about the rules for how you team precedent.

And I forgot the second question. The second question is from a legal and constitutional. What can we do? Constitutional. Yeah. Yeah. We got to vote, right? Um, again, I think, I think some of the work would be at the state level and to go from there.

I mean marriage also had major setbacks at the Supreme Court level and they then switched their focus to the states and then gradually they created more sport

but no I don't even know if that analogy works because you know there already is support yeah so I want nothing sorry that's okay I mean nobody Nobody knows anything except for the fact that...

I don't have answers. Nobody, it's okay. Yeah. It's okay. Before we let you go, you had tweeted out that we kind of need to brace ourselves because there are a number of... There's still, I think, seven said decisions that need... And with one coming down today in regards to prayer and school,

what are the other topics that we need to brace ourselves for? Obviously, Roe v. Wade is something we were paying attention to. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. This is it. Well, the day before the Supreme Court expanded Second Amendment rights, even more. Right. Again, and like, not only do you have a right to defend yourself in the whole,

but now you have a right to walk around with a gun. anywhere. And the only regulation they're going to accept are regulations that existed in history. So again, the Supreme Court is interpreting our Constitution in a way that only allowed what existed in the past, which is an appalling approach to possibly. formally when a constitutional right is infringed, the government might still be able to regulate if it has a really compelling government interest. And so for like guns, the compelling interest is not having people dying and mass shootings

out for government. But the court was like, that's irrelevant when it comes to your right to have a gun. The only thing that matters is wasn't a regulation like the one you want to oppose that existed in district. And if it doesn't, it doesn't matter if this regulation is going to stay fines. We don't care. We only care if a regulation is like a regulation that existed in history. So that's another tremendous blow that's going to have terrible repercussions. The case today about prayer and school is completely dismissive of students who are religious minorities in school.

there's another case coming down about the environment, about the EPA's authority to regulate in the interest of the environment. That too, they may severely cut back at that. And those are just cases that I'm aware. There's a whole host of other criminal cases that I don't follow closely. but this activist conservative court is remaking our Constitution in ways that cares almost nothing about less powerful people. Impeach them. It does not hear. Impeach them. They lied during that confirmation. confirmation here.

I don't even get me started about factual distortions in cases. And the distortion, the distortion of the factual record, the distortion of science. It's just really heartbreaking. And I don't, I don't,

I'm, yes, I'm, they've broken me. I don't know. I have to regroup. Because we have to think about the future. and we will. But right now, again, this is a conservative act for remaking constitutional law in its own image, and there are going to be a lot of people hurt along the way.

Karen Malacorban, thank you for joining us today on higher learning. We realize that it is not a fantastic time, but your internet. insight and your knowledge is always appreciated. Thank you so much. It's always nice to talk to you and maybe one day I'll come on your show and talk about a fabulous development of the law. An amazing victory. We hope so too. That's what we hope. An amazing victory. Okay, thank you. And we'll see you later. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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Did she make you feel better, Rachel? She tried. Yeah. She tried. But I don't know. We didn't bring her on to make us feel better. We brought her on to help. Help make some sense of this.

Help us understand things. help us see where we're going, help us find out if we have any options. I mean, I got to, like, I guess it's the last question I ask, Caroline, just to be a professor when it comes to constitutional law and stand by the Constitution and what it stands for and then to see people play with it in the way that they are has got to be disheartening as a professor. I can't even. I don't know how you teach without talking about how you personally. personally feel about the decisions that are being made from the Supreme Court. It's a tough to be a constitutional law professor right now.

All right. There are protests around the nation. We've seen it. I called the police, the Gestapo earlier. That's actually the secret police. I don't know why. They just, they fucking act like stormtroopers out there.

It's just, people are trying to, they threw Jody Sweden from full house. They manhandle fucking Jody Sweden from full house. The fuck? the police are tossing fucking Jody Sweeten from full house around.

I always notice that when people get tossed around with the police, they always like readjust their clothes whenever they get tossed around. Well, they're messed up. What do you mean? Of course they do. Black people, we don't readjust our clothes.

Oh, you said white people do? White people do, yeah. I meant to say I should say white. Like, Jody Sweeten got tossed around and she got up and she readjusted her hat. Black people are quick in a fracas to let the clothes go. Like if you, if the hat gets off, we don't reach for the hat. We continue on our thing.

White people readjust their clothes a lot. She was shook. She was shook. Like, you ever see a fight between two black ladies and ass is showing and one black lady is pulling the other black lady skirt down? That's because we don't readjust. Why people, white people take the time to readjust. I wonder what that means. Have you ever? I, I would, we need to ask somebody why. Too bad, we didn't throw that question to Caroline. I'd ask you right now because Caroline live in Miami. And that's where fights take place. You know what's funny?

Such an odd observation from you. That's true. Of all the things that happened in that video, you focused on the fact that she was readjusting her clothes. So I'm watching because they manhandle her, right? And then they comes up and she gets her half. back right. I'm thinking, you know, man, fuck the hat. The cops just put in the house. Maybe she didn't want to be seen. I don't know.

Maybe she, but somebody goes, Jody, are you okay? Yeah. She was just at the hat. You know, it's this interesting thing. You know, it's funny. The, the people from hip-hop homicides tried to like, hey, when we were shooting in Miami, they wanted to shoot in Miami on Memorial Day weekend. They were like, yo, Van, do you have a problem with being my what it's like you know do we have a problem of being in Miami on Memorial Day weekend I was like what do you mean

nigger nigg weekend yeah no I'm not going down there oh fuck it's like you catch COVID and a case which by the way I went down to Miami still ended up getting COVID got COVID on that trip

that is why you all Florida that's right doubt that's where I got it didn't even put that together Without a doubt, that's where I got it. All right. Protests around the nation, demonstrators show. Support for abortion rights. A truck hit, hit abortion rights protesters in Iowa.

Republicans call abortion rights protests at the capital in the insurrection. I don't. I don't know. Fucking idiots, dog. I was shocked at this point. Just waiting for anything, the closest thing that they could call that too,

which is not. But we've talked about a couple of things we can do. All right. Donate to an abortion fund is what you guys can do. Support reproductive justice organizations. These are some of the funds. Donnie put them in the thing for us. Thank you, Donnie.

Thank you to Donnie and Trudy. The document for this week's show, the documents are always good. These documents are exceptional. I want people to listen up right now. You know, Rachel, why don't you tell people like where they can go? No, Van, you're on a roll. Just go. You're totally fine. It's okay. Thank you. Donate to abortion fund. The Yellowhammer Fund serves the Deep South, especially Alabama and Mississippi and the indigenous women. Rising has an abortion fund open to all indigenous people in the United States. You can also donate to Planned Parenthood, which provides sex education and reproductive care around the country. That is the Yellowhammer Fund, Indigenous Women's Rising, of course, Planned Parenthood. You can also support reproductive justice organizations. Sister Song, the National Electives,

One of them is called Sister Song, so you guys be listening. It's the largest multi-ethnic reproductive justice collective sister song. The National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice is another one. And the Texas-based Alphia Center was founded to assist marginalize women at risk of contracting HIV and AIDS. All of these places are reproductive justice organization. Sister Song, the National Latina Institute. for reproductive justice and a fire center. You can also stay informed.

NARAL is the longest running national abortion advocacy group in the country and lobbies to expand abortion and birth control access, fight for parental leave, which is very important, and prevent discrimination due to pregnancy. The organization's website has fact sheets, information about congressional track records, and breakdown of laws in each state. That is very important. N-A-R-A-L. You definitely want to be able to access...

I don't get that. Could you try again? The third time. Series missed off too. Don't you have to call on Siri? I don't understand why she keeps doing that. Nah. Siri's mad.

Series piss. My series got a soul. So you definitely need to look at the facts sheets, the information about congressional track records is very, very key because we're trying to keep an eye on some of these races. And you need a breakdown of the laws of each state because you also need a breakdown of what laws that you might be breaking. I want everyone to be able to be advocates, but I also want you guys to understand smart ways

to do it because you can't help if you're shelling out tons and tons of money in legal bills or if you are incarcerated or if they get you on some weird. or cross state lines felony. We need to know how we do this effectively and safely so that we keep people free. All right. We're not going to talk about the coach that the prayer situation that Caroline was talking about. Yeah. Because I have a way to beat them on that one.

And what is that? 50 Muslims. 50 Muslims. I want I want everyone. the coach is allowed to pray on the 50-yard line. Dope, cool. Everyone is allowed to pray, though. So let's make sure that religious rights,

if we're going to, if we're going to say that people can pray in schools, let's make sure everyone can pray. Because if this were a Muslim coach that was getting down and praying at the 50-yard line, all you would hear about is Sharia law and blah, blah, blah, and all of this stuff. this is fucking nuts I love God there's a separation for a reason and we're actually seeing it in real time

um sorry I couldn't hear what you said throw her out the room nah that's my home girl did you want to talk about the verses at all your guy the one you go so hard for all the time

is the one that was showing out I tried to do an emergency pot on it, but you were, you were ghosts. I don't know if you, and this is before, this is the before Robey Wade came out. Group chat gate. Let me tell you something about it. Let me tell you something about it right now.

Seriously. This is the only thing I'll say about the verses. Okay. The verses, the verses had Sammy, Bobby V, pleasure P,

O'Maryon, Mario, Tank, Jeremiah, the homie D.A. Davis. Everybody was there. Orion and Omarion, a watermelon, a bunch of gimmicks. A bunch of gimmicks, right? A bunch of people who couldn't sing anymore. But with all of that talent there, what was the thing people were talking about? Who rose to the top and became the thing that people. were talking about from that person. Okay, I regret this. I'll be honest with you.

With everything that was going on, what was the one thing that captivated the culture that you had to talk about from the verses? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. Who was the most consequential person? No, no, no, no, no. From the verses with all of those people who was. No, no, no. That's the question.

The biggest impact on culture is the verses and it's. entirety. It was, yo, entirety. Now, there's always good and bad when it comes to verses. So Mario was equally

talked about and how fantastic he was, as trash as Ray J. was. But even if we were, fine, for argument's sake,

sure. Ray J. was talked about the most. It doesn't make him impactful to the culture. People were trolling him. It does. They were trolling him.

If, listen, if let's just say Ray J had been out, right? Ray J wasn't even a part of this. And Jeremiah was the fourth person in that group that did the pre-show. They would have been talking about Jeremiah.

Not the same way. Yep. If he had held the baby, if he was off-key, if there was no Rage J, that's what I'm saying. Ray J, Ray J, do an interview with Speedy,

he breaks glasses, he goes viral. Reg Jail goes to the thing is, you know why? I'm not saying Ragee doesn't go viral. That doesn't make him important to the culture. It does.

Do you know why? all of them ganged up on raging and sang his song? Do you know why they did that? Because he couldn't do it. Nope. Because they knew that he was the man. I can't. You know who in this argument?

You are Republican. Oh, shit. You are a Republican and I'm a Democrat. You some hoops. It's what you are. Some hoops. Guys, I'm not going to tell you right now

not to be discouraged. you should be discouraged. Yeah. You got to be discouraged. You know? It's the end of Empire Strikes Back. This is a movie that Rachel never saw. Let me tell you what happens at the end.

Wait, is that a Marvel? Why do I know that? No, it's the Star Wars movies. Oh, Star Wars. Star Wars. Star Wars. So let me tell you guys what happened at the end of the Empire Strikes Back. It's all bad.

At the end of the Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo is encased in Carbonite. Luke Skywalker has just, spoiler alert, has just realized that the most evil man in the galaxy is his father. Landau Calrissian has turned on the group. Things are bad. The empire strikes back. The empire is up. The good guys lost.

But you know what they still have that exists in every single story of a hero. winning ever. They have hope. They have hope. Between the three of them, they are together. They are aligned. It is Chewbacca. It is Leia.

It is Luke. It is Lando, even though he was acting like a bitch before. They know what they got to do. They got to go free hard and then they got to go deal with Vader. But they can't do any of it if they don't think they can. So the first thing that you should be able to do, the end of the moment. movie. Luke got his hand cut off by his dad, right? But at the end of the movie, you see him playing around with his new cybernetic hand. Pick yourself up. Put your hand back on. Get your fucking speeder. Go finish your training. Become a Jedi. And then go out there and get the fucking job done. Believe you can first. Hope is the first thing. All right. We out. That's beautiful. When in doubt, a Star Wars reference makes everyone better.

You know, I was interviewing Chris Pine and I said, Chris, when will we see you in another Star Wars movie? Nah, wow. And he just pauses. I go, last question before I go. I go, is there one coming? Is there another Star Wars? Will we see you again?

And he pauses. And then I pause. And then he goes, well, you know, and I go, no, Star Trek. Star Trek. Star Trek. And he goes, no, no, no, no. I want to answer about Star Wars. And he gives me a full answer, just of like I'll have to talk with my agent.

And then he answers about Star Trek. And then I proceeded to tell him that this was probably my last interview for extra because I can't get it together. There's no hope for me with this Star Wars Star Trek, DC, Marvel. Last thing I will say to end on a night note. I watch you in the carpet. Your questions were fantastic. I was going to say, thank you so much.

Your questions were fantastic. You made me look like a rock star. Thank you. No problem. All right. We are out. Do you think caps off, but do not stop learning. And you can take the gloves off for one second, but do not stop fighting because this shit ain't over.

I'm Van Laith Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.