Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - The Real Bill Gates and Understanding the Conflict in Gaza

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay react to the latest developments in the saga of the Bill and Melinda Gates divorce (11:34), Joe Budden staying in the news for the wrong reasons (28:28) and J. Cole’s professional basketball debut (40:51), before asking the age old question: what would you get if you combined Lil Wayne with Drake? Wake? Lil Drayne? (44:52). Then Rebecca Abou-Chedid & Simone Zimmerman join the podcast to shed some light on the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict (51:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathen. And it's me, Rachel Lindsay. I want to give a shout out. To me?

Thanks. No. I'll give a shout out to you anyway. You always have a shout-outs. I want to give a shout-out to one of the most popping places on the internet right now, which is R-slash Thought Warriors on Reddit. It's going up. They didn't hit a thousand.

thousands subs. They have in the live chats. Is that because of your your shout out? Did it increase after you shouted them out on the podcast? I am not taking any responsibility for the success of one of the hottest places on the internet, which is R slash Thought Warriors on Reddit. I'm not taking any responsibility for their success. What I'm saying is whoever's responsible for it is going up over there.

That's what happening. It's going up. I love it. I love that there's this community out there. We got to get merch. We got to get so we can see people. We can see the thought warriors out there representing. So you can't see them now.

You can only see them when they bought stuff from you. Van, how cool is it going to be to walk and see somebody wearing? I almost said what something could be. And I don't want anybody to steal it, but you know, something higher learning. Here's a thing, though. If they see you, they're going to come up to you.

So you just want to sell them something. Have you had somebody stop? because I don't know if we even get to profit. Have you seen? Oh, wow. We don't know what the percentages are. I don't know. I don't know how that works.

Bill, we don't know what the percentages are. We might have to make a Vimeo podcast about Bill. We don't know what the percentages are, man. Bill, I want to see the accounting. Stop. Bill. This is sounding too familiar. I don't like it.

Bill, I want to see the accounting, Bill. Man, shout out to my name. Have you met a thought warrior in the wild? Have you? Yes, I have. It's happened many times. Yeah, and it's nice. And it's nice when they come up.

Talk about the pod with you. It is. It's very nice. Like the Thought Warriors are a delightful group of people. They're very diverse, you know? You never know what a thought warrior is going to look like. They come in all different types of shapes and sizes. Rachel, did you have a good weekend?

I've worked all weekend. So, I mean, I guess, I guess press junket. to Tribeca Film Festival. That was cool. Talk to Robert De Niro. Robert De Niro, Bobby. I called him Bobby. I did not.

I called him Robert. And Lisi's story. Are you a big Stephen King fan? I am. Got a new show coming out, Apple TV, Leesie's story, a lot of levels to it. Very layered.

Good. Julianne Moore, Clive Owen. Then I did the MTV Movie and TV Awards. Fantastic. On the red carpet, people are back. It's fun. Good to see people.

Here's the thing. I love Stephen King. I've read most of the Dark Tower series. I've read all of the Dark Tower series. Okay. I read all of the classics. You know, I read The Stand, Tommy Knockers, all of that stuff, you know, even going back. I even wrote, Stephen King is such a fantastic writer.

I wrote a collection of short stories. He's got one called The Night Flyer, which is fucking terrible. terrifying, okay? But here's the thing. It's over. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, gusalcumab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine.

Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus.

Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict. slash bonus dash offer dash terms the Stephen King portion of my life oh I thought you were saying like Stephen King is done okay no no no no Stephen King that brain is uh that brain will always happen that

brain always be gone right but for me the Stephen King portion of my life is over all right that's it I'll tell you why because you got to be honest with you I don't have no scary no no scary I watch scared by real life real life scary enough Got you. No more scary. How about this? It's the end of scary, Rachel. Scary was fun.

Remember when scary was fun? Remember when you were like, I want to watch Freddie Kruger knowing that Freddie Kruger was going to scare the hell out of you? Were you scared of Freddy? Were you afraid of him? Well, you know my movie history van. I wasn't allowed to watch Freddie Kruger back in the day when it was, when it was. So I'm, he was scary to me just because I knew what he looked like, but I didn't understand

that he appeared in your dreams and all. of that. I didn't, I don't, I don't know the background. You know what I mean? I didn't, sorry, I didn't get to watch it back then. None of it. Not child's play, not Freddie, not funny. Not not nightmar on Elm Street, not Jason. What was the judge's idea of a scary movie? Goose bumps. You know what I'm saying? Goose bumps kind of scary, though. I'm not a lie. That's what I used to read. Goosepump's kind of scary though. I remember one time, I think one of my earliest panic attacks. I was obsessed with Freddie. What? Because Freddie was funny.

Is that why? Because I feel like a lot of people loved Freddie. So I liked to watch Freddy. But the reason why I was obsessed with Freddie is because like I as a kid got obsessed with things that there was no way out of. Right. You were done. So this is what I mean about that. Okay. So any like slasher movie, I didn't really have a problem with the slasher guys because like I got a chance.

You know, if you, if you like the scorer movie. green dude was like he was like a slasher. Okay. Okay. Yeah. He better, he better get me in a good spot. Because if not, I got a shot. Okay. I got a chance with him. Okay. He comes at me with a knife. You never know. I might roll, kick him in the leg. And he might go down. I might say you plate this out in your mind. Yeah. It's stuff I can do. You know what I mean? The stuff I can do. Freddie, there's nothing. Okay. There's nothing you can do. Stay away. You can't.

Stay awake. And so here's the thing about Freddie. You watch the Freddie movies and the scariest thing, this is a little thing they do in Freddy movies where the person just nods and you think they just nodded off real quick and they caught themselves. But no, they're asleep. Right. And everything else is happening now is the dream.

Their mom walks in and, hey, baby, do you want a piece of cake? no mom I don't want a piece of cake and all of a sudden mom goes Eat the piece of cake bitch And it's Freddy And that kind of thing for a young Van used to mess with me Because my mother would come in after I had

gnawed off and if my mom had a weird Look at the face I'd be like yo is my mom Freddy right now? Is she Freddie? But I remember one time I thought I was actually in the Freddy. I thought I was,

I thought Freddie was happening for real. I know I keep telling you guys stories like this, but I have fallen asleep on the couch. Okay. Okay, man. I have fallen asleep on the couch. And if we get my mom back on here, she'll remember this.

I had fallen to sleep on the couch. And when I woke up, I looked at the television and there was a commercial for Freddy's 1,900 number. Another commercial. And look, and look, when I woke up, all I saw,

remember, if you remember Nightmare on L. Street 3, Freddie appears as an apparition in the TV, and then he grabs a kid and he pulls him into the TV and he kills him. I remember I woke up and I saw Freddie on the TV and he was like, ha, ha, ha, ha, dial one 900, Freddie Groomer, ha. And I leapt up and ran to the back and was pounding on my parents' door. How old? Oh man, seven or eight, something like that. Seven or eight pounded on my parents' door. And my dad came out there. My dad came out there.

Like he didn't have no pants on. It almost hit me in the face. He came out there, boy, what's going on? Boy, what's going? What's going? What's on? And I'm like, Freddy Krueger, Freddy Krueger. Freda Krueger.

And he said, nigger, if you don't get your motherfucking ass out of my face, talk about some Freddie Kruger. Get your ass in your room and go to sleep. Get your ass. I'm like, yo, I'm scared. You're not going to. Hey, what's wrong, Terry?

This nigga talk about some Freddie Kruger. This boy got to learn what's real and what's not. What was scarier? Your dad in that moment or Freddie Kruger on TV? That's why I love my dad. That's why I love my dad. I love my dad because after running into him, Freddie didn't seem so scary.

Exactly. That's what I was going to say. I woke this man up at 132 o'clock in the morning. Oh, this was in the middle of the night. Hell yeah. Oh, I thought you like took a nap on TV. No.

No, I had woke. I was no, I had fallen asleep on the couch watching TV. Got you. But when I woke up, there was a Freddie 100 commercial playing and I saw it and I ran to the back. And my dad was. It's dark. I get it.

You're alone. I got you. And this is why, this is why the judge didn't let us watch these movies. I can't head on the judge. Because we watch them all. We watch, we watch Charles Play and my dad will come in.

My dad will see me. I'd be watching Charles Play. He'd be like, now see? I see what I'm talking about? I ain't going to stop you from watching it. I don't want to hear no shit about no motherfucking chucky though. Whatever you do,

you're putting them thoughts in your head. That ain't nothing but a demon on the TV. You're putting all these demonic thoughts in your head. Go ahead, boy. I ain't going to tell you nothing, but don't run up. That's what he would say. All right. So look, we are going to end this podcast today with a talk with two activists that are going to attempt to give you some insight into the current conflict happening right now in the Middle East. Now, these two are people who have worked with different organizations in America to address the conflict.

and I am prefaceing this by telling you that they are both pro-Palestine. We are going to do our best. It's going to be towards the end of the podcast. We're going to give you some of the other stuff first. We're going to try to do our best to maintain a nuanced conversation with them and discuss this issue so you guys can understand it better. And we'll leave it at that. We'll leave it at that.

The thought worried community have been asking us to touch this. We want to make sure I have my own personal thoughts on it. Rachel has our own personal thoughts on it, but we want to talk to people who had maybe more informed thoughts. And, well, let's do it. You guys can have it right there. Of course, it's a big issue. We're going to talk about it here on the podcast.

Before we get to any of that, though, we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those.

WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis.

Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. Tap this ad to learn more about trim fire, including important safety information.

Okay. Should we start the podcast off with a news from the world? Oh. Well, actually, I know how I want to start the podcast off. I know how I want to start the podcast off. What? What I have to do. So I am going to double down on something that I said,

on the podcast earlier. Which you typically do. Okay. Remember when I said that the settlement between Bill and Melinda Gates should be... Are we doing this again? Just listen. I said it should be... 100 million.

100 million. I stand by that, except I think now Bill Gates should be the one to get $10,000 and the rest of the money should go to Melinda Gates. I was completely wrong on the splits. Melinda Gates doesn't just deserve all of Bill's money. I think she deserves probably her neighbor's money and other people in the surrounding areas. I didn't know what this woman was going through and I'm sorry. Nobody did.

I'm sorry to Melinda Gates. It's hard for me to say sorry to a billionaire, but I am. Bill Gates was out here wilding. We didn't even cover it in the podcast before. We didn't. that she actually first sort of moved away or pulled back from him because he was hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein, according to the Wall Street Journal, okay,

according to reporting done in the Wall Street Journal. But that's not all. Is it the Wall Street Journal? Yes. Yes, it was the Wall Street Journal, for a second. According to reporting done in a Wall Street Journal, but that's not all. By the way, we should say that. First of all, let's not gloss over that.

Did you read that story about the Jeffrey Epps? Epstein connection. Yeah, with Bill? Yes. Bill and Epp. But here's the thing. It had been reported before, reported on before. I think in 2011, 2011, 2013, don't quote me on this, but years before that they had had a

connection, it had come out. And Melinda would, Melinda. Oh, shoot. Is that her name? Oh, I thought it was Melissa for a second. Okay. And Melinda was upset about it. She was upset at the affiliation between her husband and Epstein.

and the fact that now the public knew about it. But I didn't even know this connection was made. So when all the stuff was coming out about Jeffrey, they started talking about other prominent and powerful people that were connected to him, including old Bill here. So here's the thing about Clinton. So here's the thing about the Epstein deal. By the time that Epstein would have met Bill Gates,

we should say that Bill Gates categorically denies being a part of any of Jeffrey Epstein's whatever he was doing, any child trafficking, any abuse of young women, he says that that wasn't a thing. The only problem with that is the timeline in which these guys were hanging out, Epstein's reputation

would have already have been solidified around circles. You would have heard stuff. This is also, I believe, because if we're talking about 2014, I think the last time that Epstein was actually before his final arrest, he was arrested. I think it was 2013 or something like that or even before then that he had actually been criminally accused of some of this stuff.

So by the time Bill Gates starts coming around Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein has a reputation of being a guy that abuses and traffics young women. The question then becomes, if you're Bill Gates, Why would you hang around him knowing that that was a thing about him? He had already pled guilty to soliciting prostitution of a minor. Like pled guilty, not beyond accused, had pled guilty. So it was out there. This was public knowledge.

Yet Bill Gates continued to associate and affiliate with him. Even if you say it was about philanthropy, why would you want your name or money to come from somebody who's about this? life. There's no way when you hear people talk about or watch a documentary on everything that Epstein was doing, there's no way that you were around him and did not know what was going on. He seemed to be very upfront with it. And there's even a quote from Bill Gates that says, Jeffrey lived an intriguing life. What does that mean? Huh. What does that mean, Bill? Casual question. Is Bill Gates a nasty-ass-ass-nick? I think I'm going to have to say, It looks that way, Van.

Now, let me. It looks like to me, and I don't want to lob accusations out there, but it looks like to me that Bill Gates is your garden variety nasty motherfucker. That's what it seems like. It does seem that way. And isn't your question, how was this not more public knowledge? And before anybody says that we're jumping to, to, we're speculating here, The fact that Melinda had a issue with him hanging out with Jeffrey

means that it was happening on more than one occasion. Well, she read about it. Well, we should say from what I understood. But she went to the house. But from what? She went to Epstein's house. Oh, see, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The tea is Bob.

She went to his mansion and had dinner with him. Who Melinda did? Yes. And it was after that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Trudy, correct. me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this. Melinda had dinner at the Epstein house too? One time. Like they went to me. It was like an initial dealing with that. Well, if Melinda

had dinner at the Epstein house too, then that kind of indicts her in the situation too. But it was after that that she said she didn't like him affiliating with him. She didn't want him hanging out with him. It was an issue. It was an issue, which in 2019 is when things started, I guess up until 2019, Bill Gates was still hanging with him, has flown on the plane. We've talked about the plane here. We only talked about a different bill. Now we're talking about Bill Gates here. So Bill Gates apparently sought information, advice from Jeffrey Epstein about any of his marriage with Melinda because he said that it was toxic. So he'd been trying to get out of it for a while. But that's not even the latest story. That's like, that's actually old news. The newest story is

that Microsoft is confirming that it investigated an intimate relationship that Gates had with an employee. Microsoft launched an internal investigation to its co-founder and longtime board member Bill Gates. It's a relationship with the company employee. The alleged incident happened more than 20 years ago, Microsoft said in the statement, CBS Money Watch on Monday, the company said it hired an outside law firm in the second half of 2019 to conduct the investigation and providing extensive support to the employee who raised the concern. in March 2020, Gates announced his departure, his departure from the company's governing board saying he was stepping down to focus on his work

at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It looks like there could be some sort of connection between all of this stuff coming to light, this investigation, and Bill Gates decided that he no longer wanted to be a decision maker at Microsoft. So, by the way, I don't know what to say about this. this is what has a lawyer all of this stuff is coming out about bill gates he's in the middle of a divorce are the numbers just going through the roof now for melinda there's obviously a very public back and forth war that's going on right now with us getting all of this stuff right so you think you think this is coming out you think melinda's camp is putting this

information out rachel is that like a real question yeah i mean i don't know First of all, I can't say that Melinda's... Go ahead. I can't say that Melinda's campus put it out because some of the reporting that's being done on this is being done by someone who I kind of know, the wife of Kevin Clark who works here at the Ringer.

So I'm not saying that she's, that she is sort of a with Bill and Melinda Gates or excuse me, with Melinda Gates. I can't say that because she's a fantastic reporter, a fantastic reporter. I guess what I would say is, I actually do take that bad. I guess what I would say right now is that

all of this reporting is happening because there's such interest in the breakup of their relationship and it's going to end up benefiting Melinda Gates at least in the court of public opinion I shouldn't say in the yeah in the court of public opinion it benefits her I don't know that's not that's not necessarily going to have any type of

um effective decisions that are made when it comes to divorce court or hand in handling that I don't I listen okay thank you Trudy thank you Trudy I was right about Melinda going to the gates to the house not to the Gates house to the state house Um looks bad on her too

Looks bad She went in 2013 So what? With Bill and it's reported that she was appalled But it's unclear if she found out about what he was doing Or if it was his personality but it's the report says that she's And the reason I don't want to say it looks bad

is because there also seems to be information coming out that Melinda didn't have as big of a voice as it was as public as it looked like she did publicly as they run this foundation together. It seems like there was some report and this is allegedly that the way that he spoke to Melinda was talking down to her. So we don't know what kind of pressure

or force was put on her to attend this type of meeting. so I don't want to necessarily blame that. We're speculating a lot here. We're hearing bits and pieces as all this information is coming out. Hold on for a second, though. You can blame Bill Gates for hanging around Epstein before, like we said. Hold on. Let's just be, we said before, why would Bill Gates want to go be around Epstein

knowing who Epstein was? He continued. He continued to hang around. What I'm saying is, I think, I think right now, right now, let's say R. Kelly gets let's say R. Kelly gets let out. Let's say R. Kelly gets let out. I'm not going to kick with R. Kelly. I'm not going to kick with R. Kelly. Okay. I don't know what kind of situation Melinda was in to go to that dinner. But all I know is immediately from what's come, the reports coming out, she was disgusted by it. And there's no record of her ever affiliating or associating with Epstein again. So I'm not going to pull. put her and Bill on the same level when it comes to that. I think what's so shocking about this, too, is one, to hear the reports of the harassment

that was allegedly going on at Microsoft at the hands of Bill Gates with him talking to going on trips with people and asking them out to dinner, apparently emailing, saying, hey, do you want to go out with me? If this is uncomfortable, pretend this never happened. We never really heard about Bill Gates and his personal life. You never see him being affectionate. He almost comes across as as asexual. It looks like Bill Gates has never fucked a living thing before his life.

Do you remember the question that you asked one time about who can you just absolutely not seeing, see having sex? Bill Gates might have been on that list. So to hear that he has these accusations against them or he's been doing certain things or dealing with an Epstein, it's shocking. That's not the person that you might have guessed would be a part of that, that lifestyle, be about that life. I always wonder about, you know, people talk about rich people and secret societies where they go and they drink the blood of a goat. And then they chant and they pledge their life to dark forces and they have all kinds of weird sex and they do all of this stuff. And you think that those things don't really exist, but I'm not going to lie.

They probably exist. Those people get bored. When you got all the money in the world and this power, they just try to, I guess, looking for something else to do, looking for something new. You get how much money Bill Gates has. That's what I'm saying. He's bored.

If Bill Gates is hidden, I'll be honest with you, if Bill Gates is hidden on the Microsoft employees, then he is just straight. That's perverted. I'll tell you why that's gross. I'll tell you why that's perverted because look,

it's not perverted to hit on somebody that you work with. That's something that happens, right? But if you're Bill Gates, you're so far, past. Like Bill Gates could have been, it's like weird,

it's like a fetish that he wants to have sex with people that work at Microsoft. It must be some kind of weird thing because he has so much money. I always see these European and billionaires, there are dating Victoria's Secret models.

You know, you see a guy and he looks like a living slice of pastrami, and you're thinking, why is this Victoria's Secret Angel with this person? And then you see that, hey, he's some kind of fashion magnate or some sort of media mold from some other place, you know, and you think about this woman and she's with this guy.

Maybe she loves him, but she can't really want to lick his sun spots and all of that, you think about it, right? Bill Gates is richer than all of those speedo on the Amalfi Coast wearing guys put together. He has more money than all of those guys. If he wanted to live the life of some sort of Lethario that went around having sex with it, he would have had his pick, but he chose to do it in like a seedy, weird, peculiar way. I got to be honest with you. I'm answering my own question.

Yes, Bill Gates is a nasty motherfucker. And you're not even adding the fact that he is the most powerful person at Microsoft. So add to it the fact that, yeah, the weirdness, all of that, he's exerting his power over these people. He's putting them in extremely uncomfortable situations as the boss coming after them and talking to them in such an inappropriate way. It's gross. It's disgusting.

I am so glad that you marched back your words about the 100 million because clearly Melinda has been suffering all these 27 years. Have more information now. Who knows if he was doing this stuff outwardly, who knows what was going on inside of that household? Who knows what she had to endure over these last 27 years? Sounds like she's been plotting her escape for a while, though. And good for her. I hope she gets everything that she wants out of this divorce. including freedom from Bill

and having to not associate with him anymore. No, there's only one way for her to get back at Bill. There's only one way. What's that? She got to get with Jeremy Meeks. I thought you were going to say she had to get with the competition. But the fact that you just named Jeremy Meeks, she got to get with Jeremy Meeks.

Melinda Gates, Melinda Gates got to give Jeremy Meeks. Why would he care about that? Because, I'll be honest with you. If you're a Bill Gates type, really if you're any guy the one guy you don't want to see your ex with

is Jeremy Meeks you know it's true I'm giving Jeremy way too much credit I'm not giving Jeremy too much credit at all Jeremy Meeks is fucking beautiful and he's got all of those tattoos and all of that stuff

and you see this guy coming in because you look at me you think to yourself well now what like this is what happened she leaves me and she goes getting some guy like this she could have never been

into me if that guy was out there for her. So to me, if Melinda Gates really wants to get back at Bill, she should just start tricking off on Jeremy Meeks. I can't even entertain that. Why? I'm not, I can't even entertain this conversation about Jeremy. Are you saying that that's impossible for Jeremy Meeks? Jeremy Meeks has been with billionaire ladies before.

Jeremy Meeks is well-schooled in this. He's been with one billionaire. Right. So. And that's, I'm not saying, yes, okay, maybe he's, he's, listen. Okay, Melinda, don't go after Jeremy. Let me just put it there.

You can do better. All right. I guess more problems for Joe Button. DJ Olivia dope, who was one third of the Cid the Thing is, see the thing is podcast with Bridget Kelly and Mandy. She left the podcast abruptly, maybe like three or four months ago, something like that. The podcast came out.

they had a good chemistry shout out to Mandy shout out to Bridget I don't know Olivia I know I know Mandy I know Bridget through like social media and stuff but I know Bridget before I've never met Bridget before good podcast just seems like a nice lady Mandy is a nice lady

Olivia left after Joe came to one of their podcasts and you watch the podcast and you know Joe has Joe was talking very aggressively. He was calling them B word and all of that stuff. And a lot of people thought that maybe that sent her over the edge. Apparently it was more. She went on her Instagram and talked about the fact that during that podcast, Joe had said that he, actually, you know what? Let's play a portion of what Olivia said so she can say it for herself. This is what she said that Joe said to her while they were filming.

there's an edit in the recording because Joe says him and I should speak more because quote he's been wanting to fuck me since we've met okay so there you have it she's saying that she was harassed by Joe Budden and she felt unsafe um she also is inadvertently also saying that maybe she didn't get enough support from the people around her in that situation and that's what forced her to leave the see the thing this see the thing is podcast um This, of course, comes only a couple of days after Rory and Maul responded to Joe Button. They put out an hour long response accused him of not showing them the proper accounting, of not having the business right, and of basically betraying them as friends.

So it seems like right now Joe is not having the best month. Rachel, you watch this. You watched Olivia. What are your thoughts? So I would encourage everyone to go listen to it's about 25 minutes. Go to Olivia Dope. I think that's her Instagram name. Go to her page and listen to what she has to say.

It's emotional. It's honest. It's heartfelt. And it's disturbing. Joe Budden is a monster. And I wholeheartedly believe that. And whether you believe the Rory and Maul situation, whether you believe Olivia, where there's smoke, there is fire. And it is absolutely despicable and disgusting to hear what Olivia went through from her boss in her place of business.

And I think one of the most disturbing things, if you listen to this 25 minute video, is that she actually apologizes. She actually makes says I should have done this. Maybe if I had done more research on Joe, maybe if I had done more research on how he is in a work environment, then like as if she's faulting herself. Olivia, you did absolutely nothing wrong. The fact that your boss came to your workplace, exerted his power over you, said that he belittled you, demean you and demean you by saying that he wanted to. F you multiple times on your podcast laughing about it. Nobody challenged him in the room. And for anybody who says, why didn't she say something to hear her talk about how

uncomfortable she was in that situation. And I think a lot of women understand this and have to go through this. There is such fear of seeing, feeling like you're too sensitive. You're too emotional. You want to seem like you're one of the. boys, like everything is okay, that you just laugh away inappropriate and uncomfortable situations when they're wrong. And what we really should be doing is calling them out. And he was wrong in that situation and the fact that no one in production, not her castmate, her coworkers took up for her in that

moment is gross. And it's wrong. And we have to start calling out that type of behavior. And we have to stop uplifting these people who have these platforms and putting them on a pedestal when they are so harmful to women and just people and the culture in general. It's disgusting not only to hear that he was talking to her like that, but then later, knowing why she left the podcast, knowing that she got legal involved in the situation, he makes light of it on his later on a podcast and says that any woman that's working with him, he's going to want to have sex with. Did I get that right?

He, yeah, he referenced the joke that Rick Ross had. Now, he joked about something that Rick Ross had said when Rick Ross was on the breakfast club that got Ross in a little bit of trouble. Yeah, he did. We got to start calling these people out. Like, I don't listen to Joe Budden podcast. I can't say I'm a supporter.

I'm a fan. But we have to call him out the fact that this woman had to leave her job because of the way that he came out here and he's making a joke of it. It's disgusting. It's, yeah, it's disgusting. So let me ask you this. For people that would say, because there were a bunch of people in Olivia's comments who are Big Joe fans, that are saying he, they're saying he was joking around.

And when he was joking and saying these things, the other ladies in the room were laughing at them. So maybe he didn't feel that she was being violated in the way that she felt that she was. If my boss is telling me on multiple occasions, he wants to, quote, fuck me. That's not even funny. It's not even fucking funny And that's the thing It's one thing And I'm not saying it's okay for somebody to make a joke

But you're flat out saying I've always wanted to meet you And I want to fuck you multiple times And then he called her a bitch And then he made light of it There's no humor in that There's no way to slice that Other than just is on the wrong side of it

And the fact that he thinks that He's comfortable enough doing that on air and they were filming it and was okay with that version going out. And if you listen to the, to her story, the only reason it was cut out is because production said she looked so uncomfortable when he was talking to her. She said they actually,

they actually called her back in when they, when they watched it back. And they saw that she looked uncomfortable. So they called her back in when they watched it back and asked her if she wanted to take it out. she said that she wanted to take it out. And for everyone saying that she didn't raise any concern then and who are accusing her of of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, chasing Rory and Mall. What do you think about that? The fact that this is coming out two days after. You have no idea what you would do in that situation. And if you listen to her, you hear her speak about how it took a long time for her to get to that place. And you know why she didn't want to speak out? Because of exactly why people are writing those things.

People are writing those things in the comments are the same reason that she did not want to speak out. She knew people were going to be critical of her, not give her the benefit of the doubt, which we see so often when it comes to women, especially women of color. For some reason, we want to be on Joe's side. Why? Because his name is on a podcast. Why? Because you followed him from this platform to this platform. And because she doesn't have the same power or platform, or she's not as big of a public figure as he is. That is so wrong. If you listen to her, if you take those 25 minutes to understand why she is just now coming out, then there's no way that you can be critical of her. And I just want to challenge everyone, if you were in that situation, how easy do you think

it would be for you to speak up? That's your job on the line. That's your reputation. She's taking a huge risk by coming out and saying that and potentially being blackballed in this industry because she is going to speak out. So many people are going to be like, oh, I don't want to say anything around Olivia because she might be put me on blast on her Instagram, which is a terrible place to be. She was violated. She was disrespected. And she should have the right to speak out on it without any repercussions. Those should only be going Joe Budden's direction.

Well, there you go. We'll leave it there. I mean, the thing here is there's really nothing to believe. You know how sometimes things come out and there's one side and there's the other side. There's really nothing to believe. There's really not going to be anybody unless someone could produce a tape that this didn't happen, which I don't think that's very likely to be the case. This obviously happened. So the question then becomes all about how she felt about it.

And you just cannot begrudge her her feelings. You can't. So unless someone was able to put out a podcast, a whole full podcast where that was never said and that was never done. that would be the only way to kind of get at what she's saying. But if it happened and that's the way she felt, then that's the way that she felt. And that's the risk that you take whenever you do something like that. Yep.

You know, you got to be careful the way you talk to ladies and the way, because everybody not on that level where they plan with you like that. Yeah. And I would say in a situation where you're somebody's boss, probably err on the side of caution and don't fuck around like that. Exactly. fucking around or not because you're going to make somebody feel the way Olivia felt.

And if you watch it, it's clear that that's the way that she felt. Yeah. Before we get off of it, you say you know Bridget, you know Mandy. I know Bridget. You know Bridget. I know Mandy. Mandy's cool chick, dope girl. What do you think about, we haven't heard.

See, the thing is going to probably, I think, drop tomorrow or something. Mm-hmm. if you were a woman in that same situation, if you're in that deal, how do you feel about the way from just what you got from Olivia and what was said, like how they handled it? Well, I mean, according to Olivia,

they removed her from the moment that she said she was stepping away, and I think she expressed why. They removed her from the group chat. That was their initial response. But then she says she later had separate conversations with both of them, and it seemed like it was amicable.

You know, so she didn't get, have too much detail on that. I mean, if I'm them, I personally am very curious as to what their response is going to be. I can imagine what it's going to be. The fact that they're still on the Joe Budded network, I don't know. I'm sure they're going to say. It's between Olivia and Joe. It's between Olivia and Joe.

They probably have never, he didn't. It is a fact, according to Olivia's own story about it, that he didn't direct those derogatory statements towards the other women. only towards her. Right. So I'm sure that they'll speak to, to that. And I'm sure they'll say that they support Olivia and her decision to step away. And I think that they'll also say that if Joe came at them that way, that they would do the same thing Olivia would do.

But the fact is. But Mandy's a little different. Mandy might say, hey, if Joe said that about me, I might just laugh it off. And she might. Yeah. So, you know, who knows? But a lot of shit, man. a lot of shit

I just wouldn't This is a lot of mess out here I can't imagine if somebody If my boss said to me Like basically taking away my talent And saying You know

I just I've wanted to fuck you for a long time I wouldn't want to work there You're not even looking at me For what I bring to the table You're just looking at me In the physical being I just personally wouldn't want that I want somebody to respect my craft

Now Speaking of respecting crafts, J. Cole had his first professional basketball game. That's what I called me to Segway Master. Rachel, you good? I know you were very passionate about that. I remember when you hit me in the group text and you were like Joe Button is a monster.

I was like, shit. I mean, I wouldn't even surprised when I heard it. It wasn't even surprised. It's just more disturbing. I just stop uplifting these type of people. please sorry um so look uh j cole played the rwale he played with the rwanda patriots of the basketball africa league do you know what j cole stat line was in this game no wait can i guess okay so i want you to guess so it's 17 minutes by the way before

17 minutes okay hold on hold on before we even get into what cold stat line is i got to say two things number one the off season is a fucking fantastic album 95 south is one of the best songs i've heard in a long time. Number two, the fact that Jay Cole is playing pro basketball is such a goddamn achievement to me. That's so dope to me. Did he try out? I'm not sure.

Okay. I'm not sure. But the fact that he's doing something and living a lifelong dream is amazing to me. Okay. Oh, wait. So this wasn't a one game. He's like legit on the team. Nah, he's on a team.

And what team is he playing for? And what team? He plays for the Rwanda Patriots. Okay. So he's living there now. I don't think he's living in Rwanda. No, I don't think he's living in Rwanda.

I think he's spending significant time there as he goes around Africa with the team is what I can. Okay. Before I guess his stat line, what position does he play? I'm imagining he's a guard. I haven't looked at the breakdown of the game, though. Okay.

All right. So J. Cole, his stat line, he played 17 minutes, guess, Coles, stat line, Rachel, what would you say?

Points, rebounds, assists. Okay, points I'm going to say with eight. Rebounds, two.

Assess, three. Okay. He finished with three points, three rebounds, and two assists. Whoa,

I was kind of close on this, this rebounds. And they're close on this system rebounds. This is what I'm going to say right now. Wait, Was it a three pointer or was it a, was it a, was it, no, I think you went to the line because I saw him get a follow. Look pretty good. So that's good.

Yeah. J. Cole's 36 years old. So he's not a spring. Yeah, he's not a spring chicken in terms of like, sports is concerned. He's beginning his sports, his pro sports career at an advanced age. Okay. So, um, I'm looking at this.

His team won the game 836. I say for the season, I'm going to say Cole's going to average and it's going to be a successful campaign, nope, it's going to be 7.3 and 3. 7 3 and 3 for cold. And he's going to have at least one game where he gets hot

and he go for like 20 or 25. There's going to be a signature cold game in this Rwanda professional basketball. A, 733 has a nice ring to it. That could be the name of the next album. 733. There you go. I like these stats. I think these are good stats for his first game. I think this is something to build on.

He wasn't out there just like doing a Tony Snell or offer. You know, Tony Snell had an offer. Right. He made the board. And 17 minutes is some significant time. I'm impressed. Cole out here, man. Yeah.

Hang on cold. Yeah. As long as, as long as, wait, wait, as long as he had more points than fouls. How many fouls do you have?

I don't know. That matters. If he had four fouls and three points, that's not a good look. I don't know. It's not a good look. I want to celebrate him. I'm choosing to celebrate him.

them. Okay. 733. 733. 733. That's really all that happened in the world music. Nikki Minaj dropped. She had a song with Wake and Drain. I love this.

Wake and drain. Wake. Yes. I went. I made two new rappers. I combined Little Wayne and Drake and made one wake and one drain. That's dope.

They should take that concept. You have one album. where it's a Wayne and Drake mashup where Wayne is the dominant character and then you have another amalgam where it's a Drake and Wayne and Drake is the dominant character. If you smash Drake and Wayne together, fuck the song.

The song was dope. Wayne's best verse in a long time. If you smash, wait, drain, fucking, why keep doing it? If you smash Drake and Wayne together, what would you get? Like, I'm going to ask you this. This is very serious question of the week.

Before we get to our very serious interview about Israel and Palestine, if you smash Drake and Wayne together, give me the attributes that this rapper would have. Give me drain. So this is one rapper. Right. One rapper. Did I say Wapper?

Did I say Wapper? Please take that. You might have. One rapper. You're messing me up. And you got to say a whapper. You're messing. doing. I don't know why what's going on.

I have no clue. Drake and Wayne. Match them together. What's the attributes you take from both of them to make the perfect rapper? Oof. That's so tough. I mean, they obviously stand alone. Great. I'm tempted to say Drake's singing,

but I'm not a huge fan of that. You know what? It wouldn't be the style. It more so would be the content of what they rap about since they grew up and they had totally different lifestyles. I guess that's that's the best I could get. Sorry. So this is what I would do.

If I was combining, if I was combining Drake and Wayne, I would take Wayne's gangster and I would combine it with Drake's emotion. And then you're going to get like a Pock type of situation, right? You're going to get like a Pock deal. I take Wayne's, I take Drake's melody and I combine it with Wayne's like unforgivingness his unflinching

whatever his brashness right I'll do this take Drake's melody combined it with Wayne's brashness think about Wayne not having to use autotune and then kind of singing and harmonizing about all the stuff that he raps about right you know you take the harmony out of it

that would be dope to me okay then then the same thing I'm the style I'm going to go with Wayne, just like the overall dress. Okay. Right. I'm going to go with overall Wayne, right? So I'm going to take the Wayne style.

So we're going to tiny clothes, tight pants, truck fit, skater vibe. I'm going to take that. But I'm going to combine that. Okay. I'm going to combine that with Drake's sensibility. So you know how Drake is aloof and he's mysterious? He doesn't talk very much. He doesn't do any interviews.

He's the reluctant star living in his Toronto mansion, sipping on wine with ice in it, talking to Elliot. Is Drake aloof? He's aloof. He's aloof. Is he mysterious? I feel like we know a lot about Drake. Really? Really?

You know a lot about Drake? Well, no. I just feel like. No, a lot about Drake? No, well, I don't personally, but I'm just saying I feel like I would never describe Drake as mysterious. I think he's very mysterious. I think Drake is very mysterious. We hear about the women that he's dating.

I mean, like, or maybe it's just that you see him. You hear about the women that he's dating. You hear rumors. You don't see him with women. Hmm. So you see what I'm saying? That's mysterious. Like you hear rumors.

You hear, hey, there's this model with a 48-inch ass. Drake had sex with her. You never see them together. Why don't? For right now. You're right. You're right. There was never, before we knew,

about Rosie Divine, Sophie, I don't mean to call it. That's how I knew her. Rosie Devine, Drake's baby's mom. Before we knew about her, we had never seen her and a Drake, her and a Drake in a picture together. You're correct. You're right. Never. Never. All right. I'll give it

to you. I guess we just talk a lot about Drake. You think that you, that you know things, but you don't. They're rumors. All right. Okay. Okay. All right. He's mysterious. Stop. Stop. Stop. He's mysterious. Yes. Drake like turns into like a light skin miss. He's like he can get materialized.

He can't. He can't. Stop. Just shows up as soon. And that's the scary thing because your girl is in her room and she's listening to Drake. And like before you know it, that nigga just pops up in her room. So he's Freddie Kruger. He's the Freddie Kruger of rap.

Because as soon as your girl goes to sleep, Rachel, you're a genius. I know. As soon as your girl goes to sleep, she dreams about him. Drake pops up. Drake pops up. Your girl's sleep. Your girl's sleep. Y'all think y'all's cool.

This would be a really good song, by the way. Yeah. Y'all watching, hold on, we're coming home. Your girl falls asleep on you. And then she wakes up. But when she wakes up and looks at you, it's not you. It's Drake.

You know what I'm saying? I like him. I like it. Shout to Drake and Wayne. Shout to Nikki. Hip hop. People say hip hop is back. Hip hop never went anywhere.

Everybody this year that's winning is rapping. It's rapping. Everybody who's winning is rapping. I love it. All right. Now, listen, guys, we've had a lot of fun. We are going to leave you with an interview touching on what's going on in the Middle East right now. It is an interview talking about a subject that is very difficult to discuss. But these are the subjects that we must discuss in order to contextualize our world and analyze the politics that draw some of the lines that we think cannot be undrawn. I assure you, I assure you, assure you that the conflict in the Middle East has a resolution. There is a way to find peace. There is a way to find balance.

There is a way to find safety. The question is, as a world, if we are brave enough to ask the questions and take the steps that are needed to find all of those things. So we're going to leave you with this. And then we're going to see you guys next week. Next week. See more Friday. And then we're going to see you guys Friday. Yep.

All right. All right, peace. Bye. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com.

Into your license plate or Vin and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule pickup and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predicted. from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC,

a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. Okay, so we had been telling you guys our listenership, our thought words, that we were going to have a conversation that at least attempted to touch on the crisis and the bloodshed

that is happening right now in the Middle East. between Israel and Palestine. There are ways that these things are thought about in the American conscious, that these are thousands of year old religious battles that are somewhat intractable, and there's nothing that can be done about them. And then there are the real world ideas and political structures and really only decades old history that lead. to some of the things that we're seeing right now.

It's also something that we understand there is an intense amount of polarization on. It's very difficult to be somewhere in the middle on this issue. So what we thought it would be best to do would be to bring in a couple of people who can at least answer some of the questions that you guys might be having about what's going on, about how the U.S. fits in this,

and what these, they're almost like outbreaks of violence every couple of years between the two sides here, what they mean for the people that are living in the region. So we have joining us today, Rebecca Abu Chudidh, who is an Arab American lawyer and activist.

She is also the organizer of Lebanon relief campaign for the center of Arab American philanthropy. We also have Simone Zimmerman, who is a leading, she's the co-founder of, excuse me, shall I say, if not now, a movement of American Jews to end Israel's occupation. Let's start right there. Because when you, well, when a lot of people hear the term in Israel's occupation, they say that that in and of itself is a side.

Obviously, when you hear the term occupation, it makes it seem as if the government of Israel is illegally occupying, or imposing their will upon the Palestinian people. I'll ask you, Simone, since that is an organization that you found it, is that what's happening in the Middle East? Is Israel occupying and oppressing Palestinian people? Yes, it is. I can also, can I elaborate on that?

Oh, absolutely. Okay, great. So the other part of my title, that I'm also the director of Betelam USA, and I work with Israel's leading human rights organization, Bitsalam, which for over 30 years has been documenting human rights abuses in the occupied territories in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and has basically been working for the last 30 years to expose Israeli society and the world to the horrors of Israel's ongoing undemocratic rule over millions of Palestine. Palestinians and Bitsalam is also one of a number of human rights organizations who in the last couple of months have come out and

taken the position that the regime that is governing all of the people between the river and the sea is an apartheid regime, which means that the Israeli government is actually the government that controls all of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. and there are roughly equal amounts of Palestinians and Jews who live there. And everywhere between that land, Jewish people have full and equal rights as citizens under that government. And Palestinians don't. And depending on where they live throughout that land, they receive different amounts of rights, but they're never the same or equal to what Jewish people receive. Describe what rights Palestinians that are living in the region that you're talking

about don't have? Well, I guess the first one I can say is that Palestinians who live in the occupied territories don't have the right to vote for the government that determines their fate, the Israeli government. So, you know, over the last, one of the many pieces of context that is important to understand this moment is that in the last two years, Israel has had four rounds of elections for their government. And we're not going to get into all the political members. minutia of what's gone on in those elections, but what I can say is five million people have never gotten to participate in those elections, even though the decisions that that government makes deeply impact every aspect of their life.

And now I'll just elaborate on a couple other things, freedom of movement, the right to protest, the right to health care. I mean, basic human and civil and political rights that we all take for granted as citizens of a democratic society. Palestinians living in the occupied territories don't occupy territories, excuse me, don't have those. Let me ask you this because it's interesting with everything that we're seeing, a lot of people get their information on social media these days. Obviously, that's not the best place to get your source of information. But what we're seeing is a lot of people are hesitant to post about what is happening right now in the Middle East.

And so what I would like, and frankly, it's because they don't have an understanding. of what's going on. Why is war returning now in Gaza? Why does it always seem to be this back and forth of this war? We're seeing it every few years. How did it start? Maybe that's too deep. That's too much to go that far back.

But just to give our listeners an understanding of what is happening and why it's happening, just so people can understand what's going on. Yeah, I'll take that. So, Rachel, there's a lot of things that you touched on. that are, I think, really important points. And the first is that I think people, Americans have been led to believe that the two sides are Jews and Arabs,

or Jews and Palestinians. And so if they take a side, they're going to alienate maybe friends of theirs who are Jewish or friends of theirs who are Palestinian. And one of the really important things that Simone and I felt about appearing together was to change that narrative, to show that there are

I'm, you know, Arab American and someone who's Jewish American, and here we are, and we work all the time together. And so the two sides are not Arabs and Jews. There are people who want to end the conflict and people who, for many different reasons, want to keep the status quo going. And there are Arabs and Jews on both on those two sides. And so when we're asking people to speak up, you know, social media can be problematic often, but there is one thing about it that has been pretty amazing. And I think one of the reasons you're seeing a change now is that you are finally hearing Palestinian voices in a way that you couldn't be for. Because mainstream media didn't share those voices.

And so just to give you one example, there is one now Palestinian member of Congress. Her name is Rashida Talib. And last week she spoke, and I get emotional just thinking about it, but she spoke on the house floor. and she quoted a tweet from a mother in Gaza who said, Tonight, all of us as a family slept in the same room so that if we die, no one has to mourn the other. And Rashida read that on the floor of the House of Representatives. And that mother, the next morning, woke up to find out that Rashida Talib read her tweet.

And she responded to Rashida and said, I've always known that our voice was more powerful than their weapons. And so this really is an opportunity to lift up those voices that otherwise have been ignored for so many years. And Van, you mentioned, you know, this feeling that there's a cycle of violence in every few years it flares up. But really, the reality for Palestinians is that the daily life of occupation is a daily violence. And so here in the United States, I think people will see on their telehealth. television screens, what happened to George Floyd and what happened to Timur Rice. And some people will say, why does this happen every so often, every couple weeks?

But it's not happening. There is a daily reality of violence for Palestinians. And that is why I also think you see growing black Palestinian solidarity. That same day that Rashida spoke, Corey Bush spoke. And she spoke really just passionately about when the protesters were starting their protests in Ferguson. Palestinians were reaching out to them to tell them how to avoid tear gas and how to deal with the force that they were going to receive from the police because that is part of everyday life in Palestine. As far as this particular conflict, this particular round of, and you saw, spoke eloquently to what the daily life

of the Palestinian is. For people who want to know what happened to jump things off this time, this particular time, what is this particular sort of pocket of violence about? I think you've probably seen the hashtag save Sheikh Jada often.

And that is a neighborhood in Jerusalem. And so one of the things in our conversation, if Simone and I start to use jargon that is not going to be familiar, we really want you in the audience to, we want that to be a dialogue, so stop us and correct us. But Sheikh Shara is a Jerusalem neighborhood. It's a historically Palestinian neighborhood.

And for the last few decades, there have been right-wing Jewish group that have tried to displace and remove the Palestinian presence. And so there are families who are, because of a law that allows Jewish citizens of Israel to take over land in a way that Palestinians cannot. claim that land. It is using that law to evict them from their homes. These are people who have

been there for decades and they were displaced in 1948 when Israel was founded and they moved to Jerusalem and now they're being displaced again. And that is what started the East Jerusalem part of this and Jerusalem is such an important place for all of the peoples of the region, Christian, Muslim, Jew that anything that happens in Jerusalem really can spark, can escalate very quickly. And so after those protests started, you know, it was the holy month of Ramadan for Muslims. And on the holiest night of Ramadan, Muslims were praying in the Al-Axa mosque. And they were met with tear gas and stun grenades by Israeli police, which was a provocation that I think even those of us who have followed this on a daily basis for years,

it really was a shocking thing to see. People praying in a very sacred space met with violence. What is your reaction to or your response to the way that President Biden has responded to what's happening right now? Someone I'll let you. I think we're both smiling at each other because we're both just. I mean, there's just no words to describe the outrage and the disappointment in the administration right now. I mean, the fact that the State Department can't even condemn the killing of Palestinian children is horrifying to me.

And I think I just wanted to add as a Jewish American, you know, the first thing I just wanted to say is about the neighborhood of Shifhtara, which is that this is in the center. of Jerusalem and it's a neighborhood that Jewish Israelis drive by all of the time. It's very easy to pass by it and just not look around the corner at what's happening to these people. And I think, you know, as Americans, we can also understand this in our own context that if you're a privileged person, you could move through the world very easily without knowing what's happening to your neighbors down the street or on the other side of the highway. And so for me, like again and again, And it just feels so important to challenge Jewish Americans, but also just Americans in general, to understand what are these stories that have been kept from us for so long that have made us understand the reality on the ground in such a skewed light. But the second thing I wanted to say is that also is that American politicians, including the Biden administration, very often defend Israel's right.

to occupy and kill Palestinians in the name of some idea of Jewish safety. And it just feels really important for me to say, there's no universe in which for me, as a Jewish person, the massacre of Palestinian children makes me any more safe or any more free in this world. And I think one of the things that Rebecca and I talked about that we just really wanted to impress upon your audience is like just that idea that, that, a better future for all people is possible and is necessary for all of us to demand. And there are thousands of and thousands of American Jews who showed up at protest this weekend for Palestinian liberation.

And it's just very important for me to convey that message that I do not want the Biden administration supporting the killing of Palestinian children in my name. So a couple of things. One, one of the reasons that you might. see some trepidation from American celebrities or people with platforms in speaking about this, especially if they

happen to be on the Palestinian side of things. And we should say that Palestinians were talking about people who, as I understand it, would call their home the state of Palestine. It's a diverse group. There are

Christian Palestinians. It's you know, a small percentage, but we're not talking to this is not, once again, I want to move this out of, this is a political thing about land and territory. This has much less to do with the fucking crusades and all of the other

stuff that they keep telling you guys, it, that's not what this is. And my family includes Jewish Palestinians and Christian Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians, Christian Palestinians, yeah. And if you're, you know, you can go back to a time with everybody has their hand

and why we're here. The Brits, have their hand in why we're here. The world government, the United Nations has their hand and while we're here. Everyone has done their best to pass the buck on this particular conflict.

Absolutely. And so what, I guess, the first thing I was going to ask you is a lot of the reason why American celebrities don't want to talk about this is because if you're critical of Israel, sometimes you'll get branded

an anti-Semite. And if you're, critical of anything that Israel does, people will say that you are anti-Jewish, you hate Jews, and that's a hell of a thing to wear when you've seen what the Jewish people have been through. What do you guys think of that? Before I get to everything else that I want to unpack, because I want to make sure I'm being responsible in this conversation, have you seen that? And what do you think of people that say that and do that?

Look, I just, we didn't do the sort of like personal stories to kick this off. So I'm going to back up one second and just say that my grandfather was born in Warsaw, Poland, and his mother was the only one of her 12 siblings who escaped Europe before the Holocaust. And they moved to what then became the state of Israel. So I know very intimately in my own personal family story, how the founding of the state of Israel, is in part one of the reasons that I'm alive today. And I don't dismiss that deep fear and trauma that is part of the DNA of so many Jewish people. It is part of our communal story.

We also have to recognize that the founding of the state of Israel was a catastrophe for Palestinians. It's the Nakaba. this weekend was Nakabah Day, which commemorates 73 years since the founding of the state, when over 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled from their homes in the process of the founding of the state. So I think it's essential for us to talk about the fact that the place that became a safe haven for many people also has continued to this day to be built on the oppression and dispossession of another people. And I believe in the deepest, like, fiber of my being that, like, addressing that historic injustice is essential for a future of safety and rights and well-being and justice for all people. The second thing I just wanted to say about the anti-Semitism accusations is that it's really unfortunate that defenders of the Israeli government have worked very hard for many decades now. to equate any sort of criticism of their government policies with anti-Semitism.

And, you know, I've already said many times that as a Jewish person, I don't support these policies. But, again, polling will show you. And just the organizing of thousands of Jewish Americans tells us over and over again that, like, many, many American Jews and Jews around the world do not support what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians. And I personally think it's an insult to Jewish history to continue to slam. are people who are speaking up for Palestinian rights with that label.

And I know it's very scary and there's a lot of money and a lot of efforts on the right working to intimidate people out of speaking up for human rights and justice. So if I'm listening to this podcast and we have all types of listeners and someone may be listening to this and saying, wow, they're being very one-sided. What would you tell those people to say, like where would you? tell those people to go to get an unbiased opinion of just understanding what exactly is going on so they can make their opinions on the situation? I mean, that's a tough question for me to answer because I think that we're speaking the truth

and it's not a truth that will make everybody comfortable. I'm happy to give more resources, but I think sometimes people need to be uncomfortable. You know, we have been sending Israel billions of dollars in weapons every year. That's a fact. Right now, we are getting ready right now to send them $700 million more in weapons right now while the bombing of Gaza is going on. There comes a point where, yeah, there are counter arguments. And those arguments will say,

Hamas is sending rockets, and they are, and that should be condemned. And in my opinion, anyone who targets civilians, that is a war crime. But there is an overwhelming, there is an overwhelming truth that can no longer, I think, be obscured, which is that for decades. I mean, Van, you asked this a little bit earlier, and I just want to give some examples of what it actually means to live under occupation. There are roads that throughout Palestinian areas in the West Bank that they are not allowed to drive on. They are Jewish-only roads. You have to be Israeli to drive on them.

Your land could be taken at any time. You cannot get permits to build a home, but if you build without a permit, it will be demolished. You might be a pregnant woman who will stand for hours and end up giving birth at a checkpoint. There are hundreds of checkpoints throughout the West Bank. you will never know, will I make it to my cousin's wedding? Will I stand her for four hours? It might be a village that's 20 minutes away, and it will take you four or five hours to get there.

If you live in Gaza, you live in an open-air prison. You cannot, nobody can, people are not free to go in. They are not free to go out. The UN said that Gaza would be uninhabitable by 2020. It is 2021. And so there is just a daily, there is a, the amount of suffering that Palestinians are going through on a daily basis doesn't, truly doesn't have sides. There is just a truth there. And one of the things that I sincerely, I work with Israelis on a daily basis. And many of them say to me, why are progressives in the United States, not states, standing up for us. This is not the Israel we want. Why are you helping Netanyahu is their Trump? And so what they say to me and someone, I'm sure here's the same thing, why aren't Americans

standing up and helping us and empowering us to build an Israel that actually matches our values? And so I always feel wary about this idea of, I don't know, biased or two sides or, I mean, there is the truth and there are there there is there is a real need after i think many years of not hearing them to hear Palestinian voices and not ask them to have to err i mean you don't ask white supremacists to come on to hear the other side of you know when a black lives matter protest is going on and they're talking about what the experience is to be a black person in America. And so that's where I really, you know, hesitate with this, that, yeah, there are many sides. There aren't two sides. There are many. But there is a truth here. And the fact that we

send billions of dollars each year to Israel means we are complicit in this status quo right now. For us to be responsible in a conversation, we have to consider something that is difficult to consider sometimes, which are people's emotions. And those emotions are based on. things that they've heard, things that they've seen, and things that they've told will happen if other things don't happen, right? So with this issue, we have to sort of view it from the lens of there are two sides fighting here. What are they fighting for?

What is the central thing that is stopping this from being resolved? and for either one of you, is there any argument from the Jewish-Israeli side of this that you guys see, understand, and get in terms of what we, some of the videos that I've been being sent, I saw a video with a guy taking a woman's house,

woman looks at the guy says, hey, you're taking my house, he says, if I don't take it, somebody else will. What I'm looking for, like what I'm looking for is someone to make sense of that video and I don't want to vilify anybody. I really don't. But what I want to, I want to understand how that's a thing.

And I think a lot of people do because it's, it's easy to be binary about this. And look, I get what side of this you guys are on, but there has to be another side, right? Like it, there,

there has to be some sort of, edict or some sort of reason why this is happening and people feel like that's okay. If I were to ask you guys to give me that reason, would you have any answers? I mean, I've seen that same video that you're talking about and I would say that that video and that response is the product of a supremacist ideology. So, I mean, and again, I can say like, a supremacist ideology, meaning that man standing there telling that Palestinian woman, I have the right to your home, I can take your home. And if I don't take it, somebody else will is somebody who's been told that this entire land is his given to him by God. And also that he lives in a state that in its daily policies and the statements of its most powerful.

government ministers repeat over and over and over again the idea that this land is only for Jewish people, that their rights are only for Jewish people and that, you know, and at the end of the day, that almost like entirely it is Jewish people in that land who receive just all of the benefits of living in that state, which is taking more and more land and more and more privileges. for one group of people. And I guess I just want to also speak to your question about this, like, you know, all sides. I think we hear a lot the idea that like we need to hear from many sides and it's really complicated. And you know what? I completely agree with that. We should hear from as many sides as possible and it is really complicated. But there is only one issue

on which when we are told it's complicated, we're told that to stop us from learning more. I want to encourage everyone who's listening to this right now. It is absolutely complicated. And if you want to learn as, you know, everything Rebecca and I have talked about so far, there is, there are books on books on books that you can read. There are so many organizations that we could send you to. So I just want to say that too often that idea is used to shut down conversation and to scare people out of, out of learning. And, and I really want to encourage people to take the opposite. And also to know that like, sometimes we can see, um, a military bombing, apartment buildings and killing entire families and killing children and knowing in our hearts and in our guts, that's wrong no matter what. I want to talk about something Rebecca, you said about the military aid that's coming from the U.S. to Israel. One of the things that we're seeing on social media and people talk about from the other

side is that, well, Hamas sent rockets over, you know, to Israel. And so Israel's defending itself. That's one of the narratives that's going around. But one thing I saw on, and Trevor Noah was talking about this on The Daily Show, is that Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. And so it's disproportionate compared to what they have in Palestine. Or Palestine, sorry. So what can you speak a little bit towards that and kind of talk about that narrative?

Because that's one of the things that's going around on social. Yeah, I want to, I'm going to give you some numbers. And sometimes I hesitate to do this because I don't like to reduce human life to numbers. But as of, you know, two hours ago, 10 Israelis have been killed in a week of violence and 212 Palestinians. And a third of them are children. And so one of the problems with this violence specifically in Gaza is Gaza is one of the densest, most, populated, densely populated places in the world. And people cannot leave Gaza. Palestinians don't have the option of leaving Gaza. So what will happen is Israel will give them a

warning. We're bombing your building in five minutes. I mean, literally. And I just, I would like anyone to imagine, I mean, what do you grab? Do you grab food? Do you grab your birth certificate? do you grab, what do you do in the, I mean, other than grabbing your family and your kids, and where do you go? There is no, there is nowhere to go. And just a few days ago, Israel bombed the, the home of the Associated Press, and which also housed the two biggest internet servers in Gaza. And the answer is always, well, we think there was Hamas there. I don't know if there was Hamas there. Israel didn't give any proof.

But at some point, as humans, it can't be okay just to say there may be a Hamas guy somewhere in the neighborhood. And so we can bomb a home and have 10 people from the same family die in an instant. Or they'll say they're using it as a shield. Yeah. I mean, there's literally nowhere for people to go. There is nowhere for people to go. And so what the Israelis are telling you right now, what they are saying right now is that they want to restore deterrence. They want to teach Hamas a lesson. But we see, I mean, if it's a lesson that has to be taught every 18 months or every year, it's not working. Like this is not, you cannot bomb people into submission. And so we have to try something radically different. And I think, I mean, if you, like, can you imagine being,

a child in Gaza who has never left and has only known, they barely have water, they barely have electricity. I just, I don't know what it's possible for us to expect of a population. I mean, this is not going to be a popular opinion, but I honestly sometimes ask myself, I'm shocked that Palestinians are not more violent. It's not that I'm surprised that there are Palestinians who take up violence. I am often surprised that they are not more violent. And I say that because when Palestinians are nonviolent, we ignore them. The only time you hear about the occupation and Gaza, the Gaza has been blockaded for 15 years. And the only time we hear about it is when Hamas is sending rockets to Israel. As a global community, we are sending the message that says

when you're quiet, when you're peaceful, when you protest peacefully, we don't care. We will ignore you. Are you suggesting that Hamas is right to send rockets to Israel? Of course not. What I'm saying is that if we want to, like if, of course not. Absolutely not. What I'm saying is that I used to co-chair an organization called Just Vision.

We make documentary films about nonviolent leaders in Israel and Palestine. And the reason we make those films is because we often got the question, where is the Palestinian Gandhi? Where is the Palestinian Martin Luther King? And the answer is they are there. Those leaders are there, but nobody ever hears from them. And so the lesson that the world is sending is we will respond to violence. And when there's not violence, we don't want to hear about you. We don't want to hear about what your life is like and we're not going to do anything about it.

And I think that at that point, humans become desperate. I don't understand. Like, I'm not a violent person in any way. Like, I have a hard time stepping on a bug. So, like, I am not the person that can understand when someone takes up arms and becomes violent. But what I desperately want is for the rest of the world to acknowledge and stop this cycle.

Because you don't stop the cycle with more violence. we're not going to bomb Gaza into submission. I just want to say, and this is probably my last question is, there's probably things that we haven't asked you that maybe there's that you want to talk about. So I just want to give you the floor to say that. And then I also want to say, we're seeing the social media activity pick up and people speak, you know, in support of Palestinians in a way that we've never seen before. So my second part of that question would be,

what do you continue to do in regards to the situation that's happening right now? What can people do, whether it's reading about it, I don't know if there's donations, if they're websites that they can get resources on to kind of find out what's going on, find out how they can help, support, because obviously it can't end it just a hashtag and reposting on social media. Whoever wants to take it. Sorry, I didn't direct it. I'll start.

Yeah, thank you. So it's true that it can't end it. social media, but that is a great place to start because I think it is important to kind of open up and make people feel more comfortable speaking out. Yesterday, the lieutenant governor of Wisconsin sent a tweet that said, normalize saying free Palestine. And that meant a lot to me. And so I'll just share a few organizations that I think are doing great work and giving people great information. The first one is Simone's organization, Betzelem. There's also a few organizations. a great group called the Institute for Middle East Understanding. Those are places where you can get really informed information and also hear from Palestinian voices, and I think it's really important

to lift them up. And I think that all we have ever asked for as activists is that for those who consider themselves progressives and who are guided by a set of values to just apply those values uniformly and just apply those same values and the same things that you would say here about how people should be treated here there, right? That that's really, and I believe that's why you see groups like the Sunrise Movement and Black Lives Matter standing up and saying that they stand with Palestinians because for a very long time there was a phenomenon called Progressive Except Palestine. And I think it's important that that's starting to shatter and that people are having those

conversations. And so they're not always easy. This conversation wasn't always easy, but it's important. And I really thank you guys for having us. Oh, Samal. Yeah, I just wanted to add a couple of things to what Rebecca said. I'm really glad, first of all, that you made the comment about being progressive except for Palestine. I think the thing that I wanted to say to close up is like any American who's been involved in the Black Lives Matter movement or in any like transformative social justice movement right now has the tools that they need to understand what's going on in Israel and Palestine.

And I just wanted to also add to that that, you know, after the January 6th storming of the Capitol, we heard a lot of different types of conversations about accountability and about consequences for those people. that had, you know, stormed the capital and about the idea that if there weren't consequences for the people who allowed that to happen, that it could happen again, right? And that the and that also we needed to attack those problems at their route. And I just wanted to say, again, in this context, like, we have seen for many decades, politicians at best offer, you know, their version of thoughts and prayers, right? Like hope for peace on all sides, two-state solution. We actually need our politicians to demand consequences for the Israeli government's continued violation of Palestinian human rights. Again, I'll say, again, as a Jewish

person, please don't forgive the crimes of the Israeli government in my name. The other thing I just wanted to point folks to a couple other organizations, definitely please look up Bitslelem and the IMEU. You can also look up Adala, which is a Palestinian an organization run by Palestinian citizens of Israel, breaking the silence, former Israeli soldiers speaking about their experience in the occupied territories, if not now,

young American Jews speaking out, and also Rabet by P-I-P-D, that's R-A-B-E-T, who are offering a lot of great resources about things happening on the ground. Yeah, before I let you ladies go, I want to tell you something real quick. I worked

I had a different job not many moons ago but a couple of moons ago and there's a story we had done at this job about something Joan Rivers had said maybe four or five years ago when there were sort of more flare-ups in the region and you know

God bless the dead but what she said was just disgusting right it was it was I just I couldn't imagine it right and you know I was very charged up at that point you know I've been reading my Chomsky and and

you know he has a very clear world view on it and he'll send you you know noam says hey the leading scholars then you go who are the leading scholars and you read all those books and before you're in a rabbit hole so I have my particular worldview on this right I have a way that I look at it.

And it is, I'm sure as you guys want to understand and locks it up with you. I remember trying to broach this with some of my coworkers, and it was an impossible conversation to have. It was impossible. I had never seen such rage. I had never seen such vitriol. And these are people that I pout around with all the time. and we had had a million conversations about dozens and dozens and dozens of things that are uncomfortable to talk about.

You talk about it, you yell it out, and it's over. This, though, wasn't like that. It lingered, and it festered, and it became a thing with some of them. and in conversations like this, you're always trying to view them from a human level to understand why those emotions exist. Are we to a point right now

where on this issue, this is my last question for each one of you, where we have to say, fuck people's feelings and let's get to the work. I'm asking because the reality is I do care about what people, because when we're talking about Simone,

when we're talking about people who have caught hell all over the place, of course, of course our Jewish brothers and sisters have caught hell all over the place. And of course, they were there in civil rights with us to a degree.

And so you don't want to be insensitive, but you also want to make progress. What's the right prescription? You guys don't have to be long-winded on it, especially since I was so long-wended in the question itself. Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate that question. And I just wanted to say, you know, I don't want to minimize like the pain and the fear that Jewish people feel around this stuff.

It's really, it goes really deep for a lot of us. I know a lot of people, you know, again, we're going back to what are these ingrained narratives? There are a lot of Jewish people who feel like after all the hell we've been through, we got to look out just for ourselves and not for anybody else. And that's, you know, and look, first, I think for me, I have a difference. different understanding from Jewish history and of my Jewish values, which is that my Jewish values compel me to value all human life as sacred. And my lesson from Jewish history is that if we're not all safe and protected and have rights in a society, that nobody is actually fully safe and free. And so it's both a like for me, it's a moral thing. And it's also a strategic thing. I really deeply,

like in every fiber of my being, do not believe that my loved ones and my family in Israel and Palestine. will not be fully safe and free until everybody in that land has equality and human rights and full protection. And the last thing I will say about your question about discomfort and feeling, I hope for any Jewish people who are listening to this who might feel really painful, like this stuff is painful and uncomfortable for them, yes, also we can say that it's important to distinguish between our discomfort and real material like human. suffering and oppression right now and hearing painful truth that we've been shielded from for too long is not the same thing as being oppressed. And I would really urge anyone who's having that

kind of discomfort and trepidation to push themselves beyond it. And for anybody who's not Jewish who's listening to this, to really understand, yeah, to make a really conscientious effort to not replicate any form of anti-Semitism when you, to make a really conscientious effort, to not replicate any form of anti-Semitism when you're criticizing the Israeli government. And to make sure, you know, we didn't even get to this. This is a whole other conversation. But like, you know, we have seen a terrifying resurgence of anti-Semitism in this country in the last couple of years.

And it is entirely fueled by the same, you know, racist, ethno-nationalists, authoritarian-type figures that support the occupation and the dispossession of Palestine. Indian. So I want to be clear here again that what we're talking about is like building a future in which all people's dignity and humanity is uplifted and respected. And I think I'll leave it with that. It is difficult. And as an Arab American growing up in post-9-11 America, I mean, I have had those difficult conversations on almost a daily basis in my personal life and my work life. and so I also don't want to minimize. And when I'm asking you to speak up,

I'm also asking you to have difficult conversations that I can understand why a lot of people wouldn't want to have. But we do have a lot of power in this. Like, the United States still has a lot of power to, in many ways, really galvanize and inspire. Like, if you see some, of the murals in Gaza and on the wall in the West Bank, they are of George Floyd.

You know, like that, like what, what we say, when we see, when we tell Palestinians that we see them, like for this mother in Gaza to say, my words are more powerful than their weapons, it's not just her words. It's ours, too. And so it's painful. And look, I come from a family that many of whom voted. for Donald Trump. And that was very hard for me.

Those are like daily difficult conversations. There are Thanksgiving that I miss. But I feel like. Really? Yeah. You still kicking in with them now? That's all my podcast as well. Yeah, we got to bring you back because I feel for you right now.

Yeah, I want to. That's an extra hug for you. Look, I just think when you are approaching this genuinely from a place that you want. I mean, I am invited into synagogues. Often, I am invited into, I will go to any space that will have me to have this conversation, because I think often there is a lot of fear of the other. People need to hear that, like, in the end, what we want is just all of the people, Palestinians and Israelis to have equal political, social, legal, economic rights. And so I think that as difficult as the conversations are, and it may take one, two, three

conversations to get someone that you care about there. If you are approaching it genuinely from a place of humanity and love, like, that's a conversation worth having. And if you, some people might get mad at you, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm okay. Like, I've had the, Israel Palestine is not the only difficult conversation that I have to have on a daily basis. And I think that's probably true for everybody, all four of us, right? Like, it's different in degrees. But you, I mean, would you ever give up on talking about like your own life experience or the experience of the black community to people who need to hear it if they weren't receptive

in the first instance or the second? And like, I just think this is the work. Okay. I really appreciate both of you guys coming on. I know it's a tough time. I know there's work to be done. And, you know, I remain as the same way I always am, which is skeptically hopeful in the future, you know.

So that's it from me. Rachel, you got anything before I let these days go? I just want to say I'm probably a little bit more optimistic than Van, maybe like a couple of more degrees. But I just think that it's, it's, I have to go back to the social media response. I just think the fact that we're talking about it in ways that we never have. A whole generation is opened up to what's happened the conflict that's happening. I think that's promising. And so I just want to thank you guys for your time for coming on here.

Thank you. Breaking things down for us. And I know our listeners gained something regardless. And someone and I would like to invite both of you to Israel and Palestine when things calm down. I think that you'd love it. We love to. Absolutely. No, I'm coming.

I'm going. I'm going. Man, we're going to send pictures and you're going to be jealous. It's a beautiful place. I might zoom in until things calm down a little bit. She said when they calm down. When the time is right. Right.

All right. Ladies, thank you so much for joining us and having you all. It's been a pleasure having your higher learning. Appreciate you guys. Thank you so much.