Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Trump Fires Kristi Noem, Talarico Takes Texas, and the Impact of ‘The Perfect Neighbor’

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

Van and Rachel react to President Donald Trump’s ouster of Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and the results of the Texas Senate primary race before having another Drake–Kendrick Lamar debate thanks to Michael Eric Dyson. Finally, Pamela Dias and Takema Robinson join to discuss the grief, justice, and resilience behind the Netflix documentary 'The Perfect Neighbor.' (0:00) Intro (0:22) The cost of haircuts (11:34) Kristi Noem fired by Trump (23:18) ‘Scary Movie 6’ and cancel culture (33:02) Teddy Riley’s MJ Photoshop (38:41) James Talarico beats Jasmine Crockett (1:03:12) Tim Tebow speaks to Congress (1:13:47) Michael Eric Dyson on Drake vs. Kendrick (1:37::45) Black vacationers (1:41:04) Pamela Dias and Takema Robinson join the show Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Pamela Dias and Takema Robinson Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. Social Producer: Bernard Moore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is Ivan Lathen, Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lennel. Okay, Rachel, before we get started in the podcast today. What is in your hands?

All right, I have to talk about something. Okay. I have to talk about, we have to have a discussion. So I was talking to a friend of mine. Mm-hmm. He's in Baton Rouge. He told me he was going to get a haircut.

Okay. He's going to the barbershop in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Mm-hmm. How much do you think the haircut in Baton Rouge was? like not just the edge up just full he's getting the haircut the full thing he's getting a haircut and it's a haircut all right about $40 okay so it was 65 bucks in bad ruse 65 buses and so I I fucked up okay and let me tell you how I fucked up because his friend had something really important to call and talk to me about but I could not talk about anything else

65 that's outrageous okay so I have a question question for the barbers out here because I've been asking around and doing an investigation on the price of haircuts I have a question for the barbers donnie do you get a haircut no I'd do it myself yeah yeah we see that okay um your hair looks great donnie that's gonna be yeah I know this is going to be happening for the next two hours because of because of what happened before you're about to get it for the next two hours okay listen you get a haircut how much is yours so but that's different though that's that's different why because because the barber comes to my house.

Okay, I just, you have to put this in context because that's naturally what people are going to wonder, well, you get a haircut, how much is your haircut cost? The hair comes $100. But the barber comes to my house. And it's L.A. And it's L.A. Okay.

So this is, so I'm trying to think about the price of haircuts and what this is made. So I'm going to bring out the mini whiteboard here. Huh? Are you about to do math? Well, no, I'm about to talk about something, because I was trying to compare it to something. from the time that I was a young buck in Baton Rouge.

So what can I compare to the haircut to demonstrate how expensive the haircut is now? I thought about something. A little fat boy. So I thought about the McDonald's quarter pounder. Quarter pounded meal. Quarter, I can't spell quarter pounder. I can't spell it.

How you spell quarter? Q-U-A-R. How you spell quarter? No. Oh, God. I can't spell out loud. I cannot spell out loud. Okay, me.

Yes, I was right. Q-U-A-R-T-E-R. Y'all, y'all, fuck it. Me, shout out to my man, K-J. You made me question myself, Bernard. Okay, so, all right. So think about this. In Baton Rouge, in 1996,

the quarter-pounder meal was $4. You get a quarter pounder fries, you get a drink. I know this because it's fat. Okay, the quarter pounder meal was four bucks. I looked it up. In 2026, the quarter pounder meal is $12. That's a lot. It's three times what the quarter pound of meal was in 1996.

We look at that. We go, that's a lot of money. That's a lot. Now, here's a deal in Baton Rouge in 1996. A haircut is $10. $10 for the haircut. Okay? Now, you go to 2026.

Apparently, the haircut is $65. Now, is that the average price or is that that barber? Did you poll? I asked where he went, and I asked, do a lot of people go there? Didn't have time to poll around in Baton Rouge. Fancy shopping. It's not, it's not from what I'm saying. Okay, it's not.

Okay. $65 bucks. That is six point five times the price. Okay. Six point five times the price for the haircut. Everywhere I asked around the country, when I asked people how much the haircuts were, $45 bucks, 50 bucks,

all of this. This is expensive. Ask somebody else. Yo, ask my homeboy in Austin, how much you expect to pay for a haircut when you go get your hair cut?

He said about $55, then I'm going to leave like a $10 tip. We back to $60 again. When we was in the 90s, I never even knew about tipping a barber. We didn't tip a barber. No one tipped a barber that I could remember. Now you're tipping the barber.

Did the black gloves and the lineups, did this change the technology of the haircut? Why is the quarter pounder three times more expensive, but the haircut is 6.5 times more expensive? And by the way, I'm being generous with this $10. It was $10 if you went to Bobby June. Can I make it a suggestion? $8, $8, really.

Really, it was $8. On God it was eight. Really, it was eight. Can I make a suggestion? Or not, or what? Oh What? I asked somebody else for Bat Rouge

How much you pay for a haircut? What they say? A hundred bucks This is what Rachel does Rachel I've done the work I just decided to poll I didn't know we were talking about this

I've decided 100 bucks 100 bucks and that and that nigga he should be crispy so I know like he should be He's good hair

100 bucks What? I'm asking the barber for real. This is not in any way me trying to shade the profession of barbers. Shout out to full-way barbershop. Shout out to all the barbers shops. Shout out to my man, Tray Verdur, one of the best

barbers in the world. Shout out to all of these people, right? What the fuck? Can I say what I think is? So your homie from Badd Roos said it's $100. Can I say what I think it is? That's 10 times! Not just like inflation and all of that. I think to Donnie's point, right? You ask Donnie who cuts Donnie's hair. Donnie said he cuts his hair.

I think people wear their hair in different ways. So I think that they don't have as many customers. You've got dreads. People wear pieces on their hair, braids. So I think that that's one thing. Second thing is with YouTube out and then there being certain tools, I think it's easier and cheaper to be able to maintain their own hair cuts. So barbers have to make up for cost.

And I think that's one of the reasons why is shot up. Can I tell you something? Hmm. I appreciate that. that is wrong. Okay, what you're saying is incorrect because even the dudes that get the braids and stuff, they still go to the barbershop.

But not for a haircut. I know, but to get lined up and all of that stuff. That's cheaper. That's fine. Then charge them what's cheaper for it to get, and like what's going on? The head, look, what you're, I know, the black guys I know,

I don't know what race is talking about. She's probably, you know, the black guys I know they go, they get a haircut. I don't know too many brothers that cut there on hair. Bernard. Oh, Dottie just said it. Bernard is.

The Bronx. Bernard is different. Okay. To get a hair line, to get, to get your shit lined. How much is it? L.A. $40 to get a line. That's crazy, though.

For like $40 to get a line. I can line you up. Okay, 40. Now, now, here's, I can lie you up there. Here's another story. Just real quick, before we move on off this. I want, before we move this, though, I want the answer. I want the Legion of Barbers to answer.

how we went the quarter pounder, I could also do Raising Keynes, the quarter pounder crazy, three times more expensive. $12,000 is crazy for McDonald's. But think about if the quarter pounder followed the trajectory of the haircut. The quarter pounder, $4, Rachel, what's four times six? 24, but.

Think about if they ask for 24 bucks. But they're not losing, they're not losing customers. Think about what would happen. I got another argument too. Niggas will go nuts. Niggas will be like, what the fuck is happening? They're asking us for goddamn $25 for the quarter pounder with cheese value meal.

I got another argument as to why the barbers are losing customers. Because you know they say, and Bernard is somebody who gets lined up, you know, there's a whole thing about they push the line back. Like they hate on the hair line. And so people do it themselves. Is it right? Am I right? Can I be honest? Number one, I don't know the niggas that you know that's cutting their on hair.

Like, I don't know, I don't know A lot of younger dudes do Can I be real with you? First of all, I'll say this The way I met Trey, my barber Is when I first came out to L.A. I didn't know where to go get my hair cut So I cut my own hair, right?

When I first got out here, right? And when I was playing basketball one time, right? Because I started, that's like, hey, I'm going to lose weight I got into basketball, quite I lost like 140 pounds. So like, I'm playing basketball and I'm sitting down with my homeboy Chris. He was a Latino gentleman.

Chris was one of the, he didn't have athleticism, but boy, was he coordinated. Good little player, okay? Shout out to Chris, wherever you are. And he looks at my hair, he goes, yo, what's good? And then he kisses himself, and he goes, you cut your own hair, huh?

And I was like, yeah, he goes, yeah, it looks good, looks good. Chris leaves. He comes back in. With somebody from the front desk at the LA Fitness. Shout out to LA Fitness over on Lassine and 18th. With the front desk and goes, hey, man, if you want to get a haircut, these are a couple places around here.

You can go. Shout out to Chris. Chris was the man. Shout out to Chris. He looked out and they came and they helped me and stuff like that. All those guys were Crips. Like I said, I know more good Crips than I know good cops. The Crips helped me get a haircut in L.A.

Now, okay, this is the deal. I want to know. I want to answer to this question. We can move on again to the podcast. We have Takedema and Pam from the Perfect Neighbor, Oscar nominated, Academy Award nominated, documentary film coming on later to talk about the life of AJ Owens and what the film has meant and their organization.

We're going to get into that a little bit later. We can get to a whole bunch of stuff. But the first thing I want to know, I want everybody to ask the barbers, you know, quarter pounder, three times more expensive. haircut 6.5 times more expensive in Baton Rouge. She said $100. She said $100 for the haircut when she talked to her friend from Baton Rouge trying to poke holes in it.

No, I was just talking to poke holes in it. Trying to poke holes in it. Made it worse. I could go with 100. It's 10 times more expensive. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. For this, nigger, what is going on? Donnie, before we move off this, do you have any thoughts on what might have changed? It's okay to agree with my thoughts. I'm sorry.

I just saw that Trump fired. Or he's ousted Chrissy Nolm. So I was updating the rundown. So let's stay on that. Damn. We knew it was going to happen. Yeah. Let's stay right there.

We knew it was going to happen. Has he appointed anybody in the meantime? Yeah, Mark Wayne Mullen, Senator. Oh, shit. Well, you just went from dumb to dumber. Markway Mullen is a legitimate fucking moron, guys. Like, Markway Mullen, I watch Markway Mullen in different interviews all over the place. Markway Mullet is fucking stupid.

Now, I knew that this was going to happen. I think we all knew. But do you know how I knew for sure? How? Kristen Nome went up there and she testified. They've been begging her to come up there. Particularly the testimony in front of Tom Tillis. Let me know that she was persona non grata and that she would be the fall guy in the Trump.

administration for everything that's been going wrong over at DHS and all of that stuff. The reason why I knew that was because even though Tillis is sort of a maverick, right, he at times will call the president out. Tom Tillis, at times he will break with the president on different things. He tries to act like he's different than your average mag or dick rider. Okay, cool. The way he kicked her ass, there is no way to me that he would. have done that unless he had a green light from the president.

When I saw the way people, particularly from her own party, were doing her, I was like, they served her up. It's not even just the way he called her out, which I was so annoyed at the way I was seeing Democrats or liberals or how people on the left, I'll say, just like praise him for what he did because I could poke so many holes in that rant that he had because what was so obvious to your point is that he used her as a scapegoat kind of threw Stephen Miller in there, right? But really used her as a scapegoat when you have to rewind as to how Christy Noam even got in front of us got into a position to be appointed, then confirmed, then to hold a disastrous,

to be disastrous in this as secretary of Homeland Security. when he was talking, he, and I have a theory about this, too, with when I think I said this on the podcast, with women that are a part of the Trump administration, because we kind of talked about it with the Attorney General Pam Bondi. They are front-facing so they can take the blows and the brunt of the hits, like line, I'm not line, because like offensive linemen, and then the Todd Blanches and the Tom Honens and Mark Wayne Mullen now,

or Stephen Miller and Trump can run behind. them completely unscathed when they are the ones who are actually making the decisions and are responsible for the corruption that is within these different departments. But the women are standing up front and are disposable. And we're seeing that right now with Christyome. I didn't know if it was going to be Pam Bondi first or Christyome, but it's looking like it's Christyome. When Tom Tillis goes on this rant completely obliterating her, it's like, how do you not connect that Trump is the one who wanted her nominated, put her in this position,

and she is making decisions on behalf of them. Your ramp is pointless to me because she is simply carrying out the mission of Trump. And yet you're scolding her for making Trump look bad when Trump, this is exactly what Trump wants. So I couldn't get over

how so many people were praising him for this rant when it really was empty. One, because of what you're saying, and two, because of what I'm saying. And two, because of what I say, let's not also forget that Tom Tillis can't stand on his high horse when he confirmed her. You confirmed a woman with absolutely no public safety and law enforcement qualifications to be in this role as Secretary of Homeland Security. What the fuck did you think she was going to do in this position? All that she's been doing is truly carrying out the mission of Donald Trump and Stephen Miller.

He names Stephen Miller. He scolds him for quantity over quality. but Trump gets nothing as a part of this. So all this to say, not shocked that she's gone, but please don't regard him in any kind of high fashion, Tom Tillis, because he still at the end of the day could not condemn Trump,

who is the person responsible for all of this. Now, I will say this. I don't want to be argumentative. No, go ahead. You do realize that the list of people that Donald Trump has, like, thrown out to the wolves is not at all gendered. Like Mike Pence, John Bolton.

I'm talking this administrate. I'm talking this second term. I believe, this is my theory is that he's got these women front facing. Not in every position. I never thought Christenone would be throughout his whole term. I will go on record saying Pan Bondi probably is right behind him. But if that is true though, then that is somewhat keeping. And I'm not being apologetic, like in any way,

trying to be an apologize for these women. So this is what I, this is my thing about Donald Trump, and this is kind of why I'm poking at this, is I've never understood the, it's always to me short-sighted when people get up next to the president in the way that Bondi or, when they,

how can I say this? People that, the mouthpieces for the president, the mouthpieces for Trump, the big riders for Trump, the people that connect their entire reputation to Donald Trump, he is very rarely loyal to them. He, like, if Donald Trump gets in trouble, if the boat starts to take on water, one of the tried and true things that we've learned about him as a political figure

is he will blame you. He will fire you. He will say that it was his advisors that made him do this. He will say that it's the people around him that gave him bad advice. Donald Trump, as a leader, very rarely takes responsibility for any decision that he makes or anything that goes wrong. What he never does to me is go, hey, my bad is on me. Of course. And the people that are like everyone, it doesn't matter what you are there to,

take the shrapnel for the president, for sure. You were there to have just direct loyalty to the president, not ask any questions, not care about any oaths or anything like that that existed, that have existed since the founding of the country. That's not your job. Her job, Chrissy Nome's job right now, is Donald Trump wanted to do this,

the way they've been running DHS, everything that's been going on in Minnesota, all of this stuff, Donald Trump wanted this to be the way that it is. He tried it. It went wrong. Her job is to get her ass kick like this. But that's not just her job. That is the job of everyone.

If things go wrong in Iran, state will take the blame. Secretary of Defense will take the blame. Everyone will take the blame instead of Donald Trump. And that more than anything else that I've abused. observed about him as a leader. That is the one thing. He is infallible. He is playing 5,000 D chess.

And when he loses the chess game, it's because somebody else whispered in his ear and told him to make the wrong move. So I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I don't know that that's gendered though. I don't know that I'm not true. No, no, no. I'm specifically saying what the reason I give the example of

Christyome and a Pam Bondi is because I don't, I think Christy Nome was being told what to go say. Because she is not qualified and has clearly had no idea what she was doing, I actually think that Tom is the one who was making the decisions. She was just front-facing. That's why I'm specifically using them. I would agree, I would say Pampani in the same way. I think it's Todd making the decisions behind her.

That's why I'm using them as an example. I'm not making it just, just gender specific. But in that case, I think he put women out there. I think they're easily disposable. They clearly weren't qualified. specifically known, has no business being there, and it's easy to get rid of her. But I'm saying, I'm using them

because I don't think they were ever actually making decisions. That's just my thing. I don't think anybody is. But I agree with you, of course. Trump doesn't take responsibility. I'll tell you something. Look, because you saw, like,

we know this about Bonding. We saw like the Trump thought he was sending the DM and he posted that bitch. That's the kind of person we got. So when they brought up the dog, I knew it was high for. Oh, with, when, um. Yeah, when they brought up

dog. Tillas brought up the dog. He went crazy. I don't know if you guys know, but Christy Nome is a dog killing psychopath. She's a bitch. She's a dog killing bitch. Did you see Mouskowitz button? What did it say? Justice for Cricket. Yeah, justice. And so once that happened, we had to know. Now, here comes we move on after this. Here comes the interesting part for me. The interesting part for me is Christy known has been sacrificed to Bathamette.

She's been sacrificed. Trump, he sacrifices you. That's what happens. Sometimes you get sacrificed. He sacrifices you, your political life, all of that stuff. You've been sacrificed. It's your job to take the traveling for the president. How does she respond?

Does she respond in a way that some of these other people have responded to be a vocal critic of the president? Or do they stash her somewhere where? where she accepts all of this, she deals with this like, just humiliating, humiliating turn in her career. And then she, you know,

reappears somewhere else with something. Maybe she tries to run again and all this different stuff. And they help her on the back end. Hey, you take this ass kicking right here and then we'll help you on the back end. Stafansky, up there in,

how you did her. There's just a long list of people, a long list of people that Trump has fucked over like this. It puts her testimony even more into perspective because she didn't filibuster as much as Pam Bondi did,

but the most simple questions she would refuse to say yes or no. I now think she went into that knowing she was about to go. Like I think they told her you're already done. Don't say anything that they can use against you

in a court of law because you might be charged with something after this. Like it puts, I almost want to go back. I won't because it was like six hours and watch the whole thing again because I now know she knew she was getting fired. All right, quick hitters. All right, scary movie six is on the way.

The trailer was released this week. And with that, Marlon Wayans is doing press. He did an interview with Entertainment Weekly and he said, what we're trying to do is bring laughter. back. This is about bringing back comedy the way it used to be, and I think the only way to do it is you have to cancel, cancel culture, and then I have the people talking.

What do you guys think of Marlins' comments? You're excited? I'm sorry for Scary Movie 6. Did you see all of them? No, I haven't seen all of them. Actually, I became less interested in the scary movies after the Wayne's family was no longer involved. I know that they went on a long time after that. I think they only did

the first two. But... They didn't do the third one? The third one was good. I don't know. I didn't. I didn't I think they did the first three. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. I don't think they did the sign. I became less interested in them after the Wayne's family was no longer involved.

I watch, I'm going to get you sucker with Mama this past weekend. And I'm going to get you sucker is always, it's a, it's a classic, but it's not just a classic. It's actually brilliant. Go back and watch, I'm going to get you sucker right now. It's been a while. Now, yeah, you know, I don't know, man. I don't know that they should have a crusade. Make the movie funny.

The jokes that are palatable people will work. The jokes that aren't, I don't know that there should be a crusade here. I agree. I'm very excited to watch it. I thought they were a part of three. I knew they weren't a part of four and five. Plus, we lost some of the main people. Everybody in five, I believe.

And now it seems like everybody's coming back, so it feels like it's going to be good. But I also don't want to watch it through the lens of like, okay, they're trying to like erase cancel culture. I just want to feel like I did back in a day when I watched it. the movie, but also the first three movies came out before there was Facebook. And now we just live in a completely different world where people litigate things in a totally different way. So I don't think that they can achieve that goal, but I do think that they can achieve the goal

of making people laugh again and that I'm into. Well, I'll say this. People have already made their decision about cancel culture. Cancel culture loss. Council culture lost because For some No cancel culture loss Hmm

The cancel culture lost First of all it was never really a thing If we're being honest There are very few people who actually ever really got canceled Now you can argue that somebody got canceled If like the law got involved They went to jail But you know

There's not that many people who got canceled for stuff And then like they never came back The internet may cancel culture possible, but it is also the internet that makes cancel culture impossible. The internet makes cancel culture possible because the internet makes it very difficult to forget about something. So when something's there, what used to happen is somebody would go through something and then the only way that we would remember how badly it bothered us will be in conversation with each other. like I would go see a movie or something like that and then you would say something I talked about this before you would say oh you know this person did this

and I'd be oh but that has to be a big deal for you not to go see the movie the internet resurfaces conversations around things and makes you live in the moment that those things happen right but it also does something else it expands the potential reach of whatever the person is doing or whoever they are like it expands their reach meaning sure, you can get to a point to where you might not be allowed at the Emmys anymore,

but some of those same comedians that we're talking about that were so-called canceled are selling out shows all over the country. Like so it might be able to take your prestige away. Yeah, you might take a hit. It might be able to take your, but to cancel you to where you can't go out and work, to where you no longer have a place in culture, that's very difficult to do. and one of the reasons why it's difficult to do is because that's just not how people are.

Like human beings really aren't like that. Human beings are resilient in so many ways and they're also, just to be real, this is inconvenient, but they're emotionally resilient. They're resilient insofar as people will put up with a lot of shit. They will. They will put up from a lot of shit from a lot of people. And I think it's also the fear of it one day coming back to you.

Well, if you're, if you're. I think there's a lot of, fear of I don't want to be. What if I do something and I am I going to be canceled? I think that's also how people think. Well, there's also a sliding scale of it, right? For sure. So it starts with hey, this terrible thing happened. Then hey, then hey, then hey, then hey, then you get to a culture to where people are litigating bad dates on the internet. Like your people are canceling people for essentially being shitty people, which no one can really, no one can agree on what a shitty person is.

Like a shitty person, somebody might look at Michael Jordan and say, hey, there's a shitty person. When you look at, then other people might look at Michael Jordan and be like, hey, you know what? That's somebody that put fucking everything behind winning. So if he had to be in the gym and not at a little league baseball game or if he had to be like that. So we really can't agree on who should be canceled anyway. I agree. But I think that there are variations of being canceled.

And I think you're right to completely cancel someone where they. have absolutely where everything they had is taken away truly only happens when they're convicted in a court of law but and and they go and they go to jail right but and for long periods of time but i do think that there are degrees of it because i think someone if someone was at the top of their game and something happened and they're knocked down they might be selling out shows they might be making out money and they might be making money still in the same way or just enough to be well off, but their reputation has taken a hit. Their prestige in a sense of maybe they're not asked to host the Oscars or the Golden Globes or whatever, I still consider that a form of

canceling because had this not happen, they would be where they were before. And I think that they would agree with that. Yeah, it's still great. I'm making money and I might be selling out shows or I can still do a movie or make this song, but at the end of the day, I don't have what I had before. Or I'm an athlete and, yeah, I got this big contract, but every time somebody looks at, me, they think about this. But I just, who is that? Okay, but here's the thing, though. The baby.

So the baby, so the baby. Big hit. But here's the thing though. The baby took a big hit. You can argue that the baby. Jonathan Majors. We just talked about it. We just talked about it.

But even in the way that we talked about Jonathan Mayer, the baby, the baby's a good example of somebody has been canceled. Do you know what happened? And it's so weird that you brought. You know what happened this morning? This morning, I woke up as I'm going in to get to, to go to the gym. and the baby drops a new record. I listen to the song.

Have you heard the new record? Wait, I have. The baby got a new record that came out, right? And the song was some ratchet brilliance. I'm not going to lie. Wait, not if it's what I heard. It's, uh-uh, not if it's what I heard, because I didn't like the way he sounded on it.

The baby dropped some new shit this morning. And the shit that he dropped this morning, I was like, ah, it might be time for his resurfacing. It might be time for him to come back. Pop that thing. Yeah, I don't like that. I don't like that. Did you hear the record? I like that record.

Did you hear that record? I like how he used to sound. I don't like that. I like that. It's got a party vibe. You know why he has to make that music? Because he needs, like, a TikTok hit. No, what I'm saying is that, though, when I heard it this morning, I was like,

people might fuck with this. People might fuck with this. Like, they might actually fuck with it. And did the, like this, the baby said something abhorrent. He said something terrible. And then he handled it poorly Then he handled it really poorly I get it

I completely understand it Was it something so profound though that he should be something that he could never come back from This is what I mean by When we first started talking and we were talking about canceling I think it depends who you are I think if the baby look different

He might not it might not have been as hard For him to bounce back I'm looking at I just Googleed the baby right And he still he still has shows but they're at the Belasco Oh the Belasco is It's here I don't know I don't know where that is

In Dallas the Echo Lounge and Music Hall Okay so it's different The House of Blues in Houston He's playing club dates now When he was a Where he got canceled He's at Rolling Loud Well he never got to quite be an arena artist

He was not this Yeah for sure But what I'm saying is what I'm saying is this $42 $42 Well like what I'm saying is this Is the entire thing With the canceling

I don't think scary movie has a take on cancel culture. I agree with you. I think that people have pretty up. We live in a hybrid. There's a hybrid to where there are certain things now that people, we're just not going to accept it. People aren't going to accept things, bad behavior from artists and prominent people the way that they used to. That's true. But I also do think that there has been a boomerang effect from the era of canceling where people have gone.

we do need to calm down a little bit with subjecting everyone to a societal purity test at every opportunity because there are very few people that are going to pass. Everyone has had their Liz everyone everyone has had their turn

getting fucked over. Okay, Donnie, this next one is funny. Is it? Yeah, Teddy Riley it's a funny story, I think. He has his new memoir that's coming out or it came out already and there is a page in the back of images and there's a clear image of him and Michael Jackson

that is Photoshopped. You guys can see it. It's a clear Photoshop. Why would Teddy Riley do this? I don't have any answers here. I don't know how this happened. I don't know what this... We need to hear from...

Do you know, Teddy? I've never met him. We need to hear from him. I don't know what, I don't know how this is something like this happens. How is it strike three? Cool, because the first, what we talked about last time was strike one and two. Okay. You talked, oh, two strikes for the R. Kelly thing?

It should be more. Right. But this, this is egregious. Photoshop and Michael Jackson into a picture is a great. They've showed the original picture. Who's that in the original picture with him? This is a nigga with an 80s mustache. He's chilling, though.

I like this. I like his outfit. But like, why would you do this? Why would you do this? Too many questions surrounding Teddy Riley. Like, did you need to do this? You've worked with so many people. You have, you are a legend.

You created an entire sound. Yeah, one of the top guys ever. Why are you? Why are you photoshopping? And so bad, who's the publisher? Who allowed this? People picked up, picked up on this immediately. Teddy Riley has no hands.

Michael Jackson doesn't have an elbow. Yeah. It's tough. I'm over, Teddy Riley. I just, I do think, though, that like, we do have to, like, continuously check in on our old hairs. We have to, like, we have to, because this is an old hair mistake. No, I'm not checking in on Teddy Riley.

We do have to continuously check in on our old heads and be like, yo, it's cool, man. Because, like, when I saw, I saw Teddy Riley apologizing for something else. And this is not. the moment that we're supposed to be in with Teddy Riley, right? The moment we're supposed to be in with Teddy Riley is Teddy Riley being celebrated for all of the shit that he did for music. But the back-to-back R. Kelly, Michael Jackson doubleheader is not the way this book

and Teddy Riley's career should be focused and reflected on. Donnie's putting something in the chat right now. Donnie, what are you putting in the chat? I don't get it because he has pictures with Michael Jackson. This is a real picture with him and Michael Jackson. Look at this. You know why? This is just old-headedness.

He's even almost wearing the same outfit. Well, he worked with Michael Jackson. No one doubts. We know that Teddy Riley had a big influence on Michael Jackson. Okay, tell me. Because the Photoshop picture, they're in the studio working together. That's what he created. In the picture that's real, he looks like a fan.

We know he's not. But they're in the studio. It doesn't look the same. It doesn't look the same. And it looks like a fan. This, I'm not. even going to lie. Obviously, I know Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson work together, but this picture looks like Teddy Riley was walking past a studio session and saw Michael and asked for a

picture. The other one, they looked like they were, he was trying to almost make it look like they were friends. They were collaborating. We've got multiple, multiple instances where we were together just making music and history in the studio. The Photoshop picture tells a story. this one does not he also looks better in the other one than this one so so these are the joints that

Teddy did for Mike remember the time jam in the closet she drives me wild there's a bunch of them there's a bunch of them a bunch of them but of those songs remember the time jam in the closet what's the best Teddy Riley

Michael Jackson collab well what you said remember the time jam Teddy Riley was all over dangerous. He did a lot of songs with Michael. From what you just gave me, I'm going to say, Remember the Time. Remember the Time?

Remember the Time is the answer is the best one, but Jam is my favorite for some reason. I fuck with Jam. Jam. You know Jam, Bernard? Jam. Oh, he did in the closet, too. I ain't you my romantic jam.

Boy, we used to have hot music, bro. Everything sucks now, dog. We used to have hot music, bro. We used to have hot music, like jam. Remember black and white? Michael Jackson, black or white? It's black. Remember the video?

Remember the video where everybody's heads morphed into? Tyra Banks was in that bitch. I used to think Isaiah Thomas was. But that guy is not Isaiah. We all did. We all did. Protection for games across a nation. It's a turf war on a global scale.

I want to eat both sides of the tail. See, it's not about raised by face. McCauley Cogan was in that bitch. Okay, I apologize. What is the last part he says? I'm not going to spend my life being a color. Mike, we disagree. Hey, Mike, we're going to be black.

I knew the last one was crazy. It's like, but see, this is how much we love Michael Jackson. We look past it. Michael Jackson would say stuff like that and we'd be like, all right, Mike. It's okay. He wants to live in a colorblind society. We're like, at least he put it on beat. Yeah.

We look past it. We understand. It's like, okay, Mike don't want to spend his life being the color. We black, okay. Black O' This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green The day doesn't ask for permission Lunch window

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trim Faya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. Why, ABC was in that. Bish as well. All right, now we have to talk about more politics. Donnie? All right. The Senate primary race has reached his end in Texas.

James Taylor Rico came out on top over Jasmine Crockett. That night she intimated that she was going to sue to keep the polls open and she talked about some of the

I guess shady dealings that were going on in Dallas County. Yeah, because in Dallas they changed the law and you have to vote like a separated primaries I guess

and then you have to vote where the address that is on the polling station that is on related to your home address. And people did not know that. So they were going to where they, you know, would normally go and people were like, you can't vote here. And then they were running around, some at the last minute, some not able to vote, trying to figure out where to go. And then when they went to the website, so many people were going to the website, the website crashed. So a lot of people were left confused and on election Day did not know where they could vote.

So. In Dallas. She, Jackson Crockett, then calls James Salarico the next morning and concedes. And this is her message. This morning I called James and congratulated him on becoming the Senate nominee. Texas is primed

to turn blue and we must remain united because this is bigger than any one person. It's about the future of all 30 million Texas and getting America back on track. With the primary behind us, Democrats must rally around our nominees and win. I'm committed to my part and will continue working to elect Democrats up and down the ballot. That is ballot, like ballot, like a ballot.

That's certainly the right tone that she's striking if you are a Democrat and you care about Democrats winning Texas. I will say, though, that it does seem that the fractures from this particular primary race are going to be very difficult to heal. because of what you're seeing online yeah because a lot of the conversation around it and because of the way the race was run particularly towards the back half of it

and when you say that you're alluding to the identity politics yeah well the identity politics is one thing right this was a race where we didn't really get to interrogate policy at least on a broad level, policy differences between the two candidates because this seemed to be an intra-political struggle

between factions of the Democratic Party more so than it was a primary where Texans and America was supposed to get a better understanding of what kind of Democrat they want. Yeah, I think that was for a couple of reasons. I mean, James Tilarico, I believe, announced campaign in September and Jasmine Crocky did it on the last day that you could. She was running a

campaign where she had three months to do it. Wasn't much time to really set it up in the way that you're referring to, if I'm being honest. I mean, you know, he put up his issues and late on his website. She put hers up even later, like right up to early voting because she, you know, he had several months on her. He gained, I personally, think I actually was shocked. I really actually thought she was going to win. Really? I really did. I really thought she was going to win the primary. And then, you know, we would see what happened in the general. I was surprised that he won and I was surprised that he won by as much as he did. I was. But, you know, to your point

about what this race has revealed about, you know, we kind of talked about it, whether it's identity politics, which, you know, I believe, I don't think we talked about this on the podcast, we talked about this off-mic, but, you know, when Jasmine started her race, identity was the first thing that was thrown in. Immediately the first narrative was black women can't win in Texas. So to some extent, she came in having to defend or to talk about identity politics because that was the narrative that surrounded her. Now, I'm not going to say I agree with the way that she did her entire campaign, but I do, I will recognize that. What I'm seeing a lot on social media is, and it's revealing about the party,

and this is what we kind of talked about before and even more so when we had Keith on in the way that, you know, people, well, Keith is a different story because I feel like he's worse than Steve. But obviously, Jasmine Crockett won the majority vote with black people, black Democrats. James Tala Rico won it with a majority with white Democrats. Black people feel like, you know, people keep referencing that clip that was on TV, television. I can't remember which station had it, where the woman came out from voting and she was crying, and she said she wanted to vote for Jasmine Crockett, but she just didn't think that she could win in the election.

So she voted against James Tilarico only because she thought she could win. He could win. And a lot of sentiment that's coming from black people is, That is a racist thought. That is inherently racist to believe black people, a black woman can't win in Texas. So I'm just not going to vote for her. And to hold that to be true and never change from that. Then how do things change?

I agree with that sentiment. So a lot of people feel like Jasmine Crockett was the better black people that I'm talking to from Texas. I feel like Jasmine Crockett was the better candidate. But people just felt like she couldn't win, like that woman who was on television. And so they voted for James Tilarico. So the black community, you know, this week, as it's still fresh, is upset by it. What I'm also seeing happen is the people who voted for Tala Rico are like, now you better, you better rally and vote for James Tolariko.

And the other people are like, well, wait a second, we're not going to automatically vote. This is what's being said. Automatically vote for him just because he's blue. That is the assumption that Democrats, and particularly white Democrats, have made for a long time when it comes to the black vote. They want to feel like, okay, you didn't get majority of the black vote. Maybe you need to reach out and make yourself, I guess, more, not accessible is the word. I can't think of the word that I'm trying to use, but make yourself more in touch or, I guess, reach

out to the black community. Thank you. You need to earn their vote. You need to earn their vote. Thank you. I don't know why I can't talk right now. He needs to earn their vote, which I would agree with. But to your point about what's happening and may cause voters to not want to vote or to be less interested than they were in this primary, is this back and forth of, well, you better vote now, will you better rally?

And then some people I'm seeing being defiant saying, well, I'm not going to vote. I'm just not interested now. Or other people saying earn the vote, which I do believe James Tilarico should do and should want to do. So I think I hope we have eight months until the general election. And my hope is that more people, more Democrats early were involved with early voting than they have before. 400,000 voted in the Democratic primary for the first time. And I'm hoping that momentum carries on. I'm hoping that James Tolariko does appeal to the black vote, tries to understand why he lost so much,

makes, you know, makes himself more available for questions, you know, whether it's going on podcasts, whether it's in the community, whether it's churches, whether it's, whatever it may be town halls to make black people feel like they, you see them. I think that that is on him to do. And I just hope that, you know, people do, I hope that people don't not vote out of frustration. It is frustrating that there was a narrative that a black woman can't win. It is frustrating if you believe that Jasmine Crockett was the better candidate and had more experience and you believe, and you see someone go on television and say,

hey, I didn't vote for her because I didn't think she can win. It's frustrating and you're right to feel that way. What I would say is don't let that frustration keep you from voting. That's just what I'll say. Yeah. Yeah, we're fucked. Yeah, we're screwed.

As in Democrats. No, I'm not a Democrat. The left. No, just overall it's fucked It's screwed You know First of all Why he's so glum

Wow, it's Bill Simmons Why he's so glum What's going on? Life is good What you need What Jason Tatum's coming back Oh nobody cares

Bill Jesus Christ about Jason Taylor Bill Bill I'll tell you why. I'm not going to spend too much time on this. But the reason why we're fucked is like we're really and truly talking about the wrong things. Like seriously.

I agree. Like we're really and truly talking about the wrong things. I agree. Like here's the deal. You owe Jasmine Crockett me, a black man, Van Lathen. I'll speak for myself. I owe Jasmine Crockett protection as a black woman. I know a lot of you guys don't feel like that.

I feel like that. I owe Jasmine Crockett protection as a black woman. If somebody comes at Jasmine Crockett and says that Jasmine Crockett is low IQ or a Shinnequil or any of that stuff, I owe Jasmine Crockett protection. I owe it. I don't owe Jasmine Crockett any protection as a politician. I don't. You know, the only thing you owe a politician is questions.

Questions about how they're going to make your life better. and we in this race in any race that's a primary race what should be being litigated to me in my opinion with everything that's going on with bombs falling in the Middle East with prices soaring here with wealth being concentrated

at just breathtaking breath the breathtaking pace right with minimum wage not moving federally with, you know, health care bankrupting people, with the environment being sucked up for AI data centers. What we should, the questions we should be asking

is who's with us? We should be asking who's with us. We should be asking the questions, in my opinion, of politicians, whether or not they support foreign intervention on behalf of Israel, no matter what,

whether or not they support checks on wealth accumulation, whether they support building back infrastructure and other things that prioritize the American worker. And what we're doing is having a lunchroom cafeteria argument that is more fit for who's going to be elected Homecoming King than it is for who should be leading in a state that's consequential is Texas. And people's feelings are getting hurt

over this and people are wrapping up their identity and their culture into this. And we're playing symbolic games when the games are not symbolic anymore. The games are actually very real. And to be able to interrogate these candidates based upon

policy and the trajectory of their political growth is just way more important than talking about either side, what they feel they were owed. And look, to me, I get it. I understand the deep. But remember, hold on for a second. Just one last thing. I'll say this. We would. I don't want to be long-winded on this because this played out exactly the way a lot of people thought it would. Well, people believe it was

the Democrats who sold to black people that the Democrats were against anti-black racism. it was the Democrats that made black people believe wholesale that being a black Democrat wasn't the only way wasn't only the only thing that you could be but that it was advantageous that the only way you could be appreciated as a politician

the only way you could be in lockstep with the black community as a politician is if you're a Democrat It was the Democratic Party that's been able to for a long time submit that identity. And so now I think there are a lot of people who are interrogating what it means to be a Democrat, what it means to be a politician that works on behalf of people, but also they're interrogating on whether or not all of that shit was bullshit in the first place. Sure.

But what I will say is you're right about, I think we agree about the wrong things that people are focusing on. We agree when it comes to the whole identity politics of it all. The stakes are way, way too high. Which is why I will, the last thing I will say about this is I understand the frustration. It is frustrating if you believe somebody is qualified because they are qualified. and the immediate narrative working against them is because of who they are, how they identify.

I understand that frustration. However, that can't be the reason you vote for somebody solely, and it cannot hold you back in what are the issues that are plaguing us as a people, but us as a society as well. And I'll put it that. So that's why I said earlier, your frustration

cannot stay in your frustration and not vote in the general election or not support somebody because you're still in your feelings and your frustration. You can't do that. And if we do that, that is, then we are fucked. But do you know that like even the idea

that it's interesting, to me how much of this stuff we actually believe it? What stuff? So like the lie of meritocracy. Like the meritocracy lie. So here's a deal. If you believe that America is a pure meritocracy,

let me say this. If you believe that America is a pure meritocracy where the best person gets the job, then you'll be mad when the best person doesn't get the job. If you know that that is a lie, which it is a fundamental lie. It's a lie in the NFL. Fuck politics. Music, entertainment, it's everything.

Talent is not enough. If you want to be a coach in the NFL, you have better be a Shanahan or a fucking, you know what I'm saying? Like you see the nepotism. It's a lot. But if you believe that that is a lie, if you know that that is a lie,

then I guess my thing is, why not be animated to pull apart the systems that undergird the lie. Because when you look at the idea that the more qualified candidate or that the qualified candidate wins, that is not true. Never has been. The candidate that wins is the candidate that can sell it the best.

Yeah, that's why you campaign. Like the candidate that can sell it the best wins. And how do you sell it? You sell it rhetorically by being able to stand in front of people and like tell them why and capture them up in your celebrity. You do it that way. You do it by who donates money to your campaign by being able to continuously over and over and over

being in people's faces. Bill Clinton said a lot of shit right when he was running for president. Maybe the most important thing he did was play the fucking saxophone on our senior hall. You know what I mean? So like even the idea that we are upset because the candidate that we feel like is the most, qualified candidate did not win shows the degree to which we have been glamored by the bullshit

American ideal of exceptionalism. And what I am much more interested at this point in my life, at this big age, as they say, is to get down to what people actually believe, the glitches that are actually in the system, talking about those glitches in a real way, and having. people have the wherewithal enough to hear some things that they might not like. And in this, in this, this primary ended up being a soap opera for all of the same reasons that don't benefit nobody. I understand black people wanting a return on investment for their unyielding support for

the Democrats for many different years. But I can tell you what, that return on investment ain't going to have no. nothing to do with who wins a race. That return on investment is going to be actual investment into you, into health care systems, into the way things are, it's going to be material changes in your lives. Demand that from the people. Like, demand that. Like, what happens?

The funding of HBCUs, whatever your issue is, like, look around in your communities and ask the question, how best do we change some of this stuff that's going on? And just like, I don't know. Like, just we don't really discuss that at all. We talk about how our feelings get hurt when things don't go our way. And shit, like, like, I would have, I don't know, man. I just, like, I'm completely, I'm getting frustrated now because we're having identity conversations at the legitimate end of

the world. Like at the legitimate end of the world, we're arguing over who should be able to push the button. It's stupid. It really is stupid. Like at this point, it's stupid. We're arguing over who should be able to push the button to end the world. Who should be able to... I'm not going to say it's stupid, but it's unnecessary right now. That's what I'll say. Because stupid, I don't want to be dismissive of people's feelings, but it's unnecessary. I do it too. It's unnecessary. I'm not saying to prioritize other things right now. I think that we will, particularly when it comes to this Senate race. But as I said before, with James Tilarico, you still need to appeal.

Yeah. And by the way, he got a lot of questions to answer. I think, you know, ain't nobody falling for that golden boy shit. Okay. So get out here. Like, have a, James Tolariko. Let's do the James Talarico don't bring up the Bible challenge. So I want James Tala Rico.

We want them back on the pod because we let him get away with the shit. to. I'm not going to say that. That's his, like, he literally went to seminary. I'm not going to sit here and be like, don't talk about the Bible. This man is a teacher. That's like being like, don't talk about

your students. You were a teacher. We don't want it. We don't care about the fact that you were a teacher in the poorest county and and solve problems within the system and that's what led you to the legislature. You can't do that. The man went to school for being a pastor. I'm not going to knock him for doing Bible verses. No, he needs to.

No. No, that's who he is. Can you imagine if somebody was like, hey, hey, hey, you can run, but none of that bad rude shit. We don't care about Gardena. Oh, please. Gardena, first of all, it's Gardier. I don't care.

I don't care. I don't care. But, can I be rude to you? Gardena, is that a flower? Gardena is out here in L.A. You can fuck up with Gardening. But you would not stand for that because it's who you are. Please.

Can I answer the question? Can I answer the question? if in fact I was someplace and people were telling me we feel like you use the bad rude shit as a fucking I don't know to obfuscate and not really discuss issues in a real way like even if somebody were to say Van you know what

we want you to come make your point they've said this by the way Van we want you to come make your point we want you to make your argument and we don't want your identity as being a black man to be a part of the point that you made. And what did you say?

Like what I used to say was I'm not doing that. What I say now is what I should be able to do rhetorically is I should be able to look across racial ethnic lines, across gender lines, and make arguments about the conditions of people's

lives that don't boomerang back to my own experience every single time. I want James Tala Rico to start talking politics with people. We know already that the reason why he has this deep belief in people and all of this stuff is Jesus Christ and all that. And we know, we get it now. You don't think he talks politics? I don't think, what I want to hear is structural change. I want to hear.

He said it at the debate. Okay. I get it. I just think I'm just, a lot of this stuff, everybody has their thing. Of course. And you're right when you say that about me,

because I do too. Everybody has their thing. Everybody has their thing that they come back to. You ask a politician a question. I've talked about it before. They go, well, let me tell you why that matters to me. That matters to me because when I was seven,

shut the fuck up. How are you going to get the votes to do the thing that has to be done? Right, right, right. I guess you. We'll see what happens. I believe. Congressman Crockett when she says that she is going to be a part of,

I don't think she's going to... Oh yeah, I'm glad she said. I'm glad she said that. And I, even watching her questioning, Noam, I'm like, gosh, it really sucks. She's going to be out of office in January. What do you think is next for her?

I don't know. A lot of people are asking that. I hope she stays in politics. Right. I hope she stays in politics. That's just all I'll say. it is interesting that she took this swing I've you know I've heard

I've heard different people say what they thought she did it like I think this is people being hopeful and I hope they're right and I'm wrong but people think that she did it because there is something bigger happening I don't know what that could be but what you mean people think that she took this big swing because it was setting her up for something bigger I don't know what that means I've just heard people say that

I've just heard it being mentioned. I've also heard people say that because if she had not entered the race, it wouldn't have been a national conversation. Nobody would have been talking about Talarico versus Colin Allred. And because nobody would have been talking about it, it wouldn't have maybe brought up certain issues into the conversation. And then it also would not have sharpened him as a candidate. Him having to go up against Jasmine Crockett,

who obviously has national acceptance. who has a very loyal following, particularly with black people. It made him have to step it up a bit because he had a different challenger, I'll say. I won't use his words, than he would have had in Colin All Red. Did you see Tim Tebow talking about child abuse? It's an old, I've seen, it's been. Not that clip, the new clip. That was a hard turn.

It's not. And you're about to get into a dark subject. It's not dark. As a matter of fact, it's very white. It's not dark at all. It's literally one of the least dark subjects. The subject matter is dark. The subject matter is dark insofar as, but this is one of the things that we never talk about.

So Tim Tebow went up to Capitol Hill. We're not even going to spend a lot of time on this. Tim Tebow went up on Capitol Hill and he just gave. I'm sorry. People didn't not want me to congratulate Tim Tebow on this or say that this was well done. He gave. Why? Didn't they want you to?

Because, you know why? Because I think people look at Tim Tebow and they go, he's a problem because he's probably going to be like, you know, some sort of future conservative figure. Well. And that's kind of the Tim Tebow. And they don't want to like big up Tim Tebow

because they look at Tim Tebow as he's going to be like a future conservative figure of some sort. He's not there yet. Not there yet, but I'm going to be real. I did not think that Tim Tebow was capable. of delivering the type of message that he delivered when he was up there talking to him. He's a commentator. Yeah, but he speaks for a living.

Donnie, do you have it? We are losing the battle and we are losing the war and boys and girls are suffering for it. And to give you an idea of the scope of what's happening in America, there's a red dot map right over there over my right shoulder. And that's just a six month screenshot of the US.

And every red dot that is on there is someone that is downloading, sharing, or distributing, child rape image, almost all under the age of 12. And there's over 330 of them just in that six-month screenshot. And we know that 55 to 85% of them are also hands-on offenders,

and we know that your average offender has 13 victims in their lifetime. The scale of harm right here in America is to a certain extent, hard to comprehend. But that's why we're here. Towards the end, Tim Tebow talks about the facility where some of these children were housed to heal them

and all of it, it was very, very stirring. There's another video that comes up where Tim Tebow specifically calls out white men of a certain age for being the abusers of children in this country. Yeah, I've seen him talk about it before. Now, also, during this same week before this,

just like a rash, a quick rash, a quick rash of white women raping children again. Because white women raping kids again. It's happening in a couple of different states. It's just like it was three or four of them in a row. Three or four of them in a row.

It was like Steph when he gets hot from three. And he just can't miss. The white women were just like just, it was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom from deep from the corner all over the place. Just like abusing children. And this is a subject that like we legitimately don't talk about. I heard Joe Rogan say this was one of the funniest dumbest things Rogan ever said. I heard Joe Rogan say. that all the shooters this years have been trans shooters,

shooters, right? Talk about the fact that the trans shooters are shooting people now. Now the shooters have an identity. Oh, so now there's an identity with the shooters. The same fucking person has shot shit up for 50 fucking years. The same person, y'all know exactly who the fuck I'm talking about. This affected white youth

have been slaughtering people, sometimes not you, sometimes 20s 30s, slaughtering people in different places for all different types of reasons the fucking video games, they heard voices, they read the wrong book,

nobody will play with them, whatever the reason was the same person been slotted, now the shooters have identity. Now it's a problem. Because like when, everything is a problem when somebody else is doing it,

but when it's squarely, Like white ladies, there's a specific type of profile of somebody that's fucking the kids in the school. It's a real issue. It's not a playtime issue. It's an actual issue. Nothing. Nothing. There's no subcommittee.

There's nothing. No talk. No special. No documentary. No nothing. It's just something that happens. Nothing. And then Tim Tebow, who is maybe one of the widest people in the world, goes out.

out and specifically says, hey, there's an issue. There's a, there's a, you see this guys? This is the way this happens. Nothing. See, that's the kind of shit that I'm like, I'm like, why? You mean nobody's talking about what Tim Tebow's doing? No, nobody's doing anything. Nobody's talking, okay.

Both, I guess. I don't know what to do with the fucking hat. But nobody's talking about what Tim Tebow said on the hill, a lot of people are talking about that. Nobody's talking about the fact that Tim Tebow specifically called a cohort of people out. and said that this is an issue. Yeah.

Just move on. Was he on the flagrant podcast or it? I felt like he was talking. The first time I saw it, he was talking to Andrew Schultz. Did I make that up? I don't know. You might have been. I've seen it before.

But good, honestly, good for Tim Tebow for bringing this up. I don't care what future things he might be doing. Let's talk about what he's doing now. This is work that obviously needs to be done. And to your point, he's talking about a group of people that typically get ignored or nobody. his attention to because of who they are. Good for Tim Tebow for being a white man and calling out that this is a problem

with white men. That's right. See what I'm saying? Y'all, y'all come here for Van and Rach to go back at each other and stuff like that. Y'all don't come here for when Van and Rach are like, you know who we are? Who are we? We're the black wonder twins.

I like it. Yeah. Who are the Wonder Twins? Us. No, niggie. What am I doing? You know, but you're too young for the Wonder Twins. Thank you.

So the Wonder Twins was on the Super Friends. What? I definitely am too young for this. So there was a show, cartoon show. Mm-hmm. See, what year this was. This is like the 80s, man. It's like the early 80s.

Yeah, see. You weren't around. I wasn't. It was the cartoon show. And the cartoon show was the Super Friends. Now, it's essentially was the Justice League, right? Oh, now we know I don't know. know who they are. Right. But so, but

they weren't calling them the Justice League on the show. It was the Super Friends. The Super Friends was Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman. It's the Justice League. So were the Wonder Twins? Is it Wonder Woman and somebody else or they are their whole new set of their different set of? The Wonder Twins was

the Wonder Twins was made up for the show. So they weren't, they don't really they put them in the comics later but this is them. The Wonder Twins, Zinn and Jena, okay? They're like, they were made for... Oh, they're purple.

Yeah, they were made for Hannah Barbera. They can turn into different things. Okay. There was like all new Super Friends hour. Okay, they debuted in 19. So they would, Wonder Twins activate. And then they would turn into like a fucking, I don't know, like a, like, let's say there was water. The Wonder Twins would activate and then they would turn into a bucket.

and then they would like get the water up if Batman was slipping around. That's really cool. Yeah. That's a cool power. Yeah, they were shapeshifters. Now you know I do know that one. But then look, this is them in Smallville

and I hope this is not the girl. This is not the girl in Smallville that ended up running the sex cult, is it? Remember that? Nexam? Yes. She was in it. I don't think she was running it. Did she get convicted?

She was running it? She was high up in next year. Oh, really? Yeah, I did know that there was No regular nexium If you're gonna be on the Smallville And you're in Nexium, you're way up there in Nexium. Think about

What was her name? Oh, Allison Mack. Allison Mack. What happened to her? Where's Allison Mac right now? What does she do? She was way up in Nexium. Yeah, she pled guilty.

Not bad, okay. I'm saying, a little nexium, nigga. Yeah, she played guilty. So she's in jail now? Sex trafficking, sex trafficking, conspiracies. Oh, no, they let her out. She served 21 months and was released three years ago.

Hold on for a second now. 21 months, sex cult, 21 months for the sex cult? It's trafficking and all kinds. You get 21 months for the sex cult? I know a dude that got six years for weed. 21 months in the sex cult. Damn. Okay.

Okay. They got a diagram on here connected to the guy Keith Reneer. Yeah, Keith Reneer. And she's right there in the circle. It literally is like a Charles Manson and then like the women around him. That's literally what this looks like. So she was one of them. She's on the outside here.

She was once, but like directly connected to him. Wow. So Keith Reneer apparently, he was, he told people that he was the smartest man that ever lived. They arranged violent. I watched the documentary. They arranged volleyball games And he would go out there And he would make people come play volleyball

And that and that he would He would sit down and talk to people And these people apparently believe that Keith Reneer was the smartest guy that had ever lived He was the smartest man in the world Smartest man that had ever lived in the history of the world And this is how Well I mean yeah that makes sense

That they would believe that And then be a part of his cult And then inside of the cult There was a special like elevated cult Because that's something else that cults have. The structure of cult is like the outside of the cult and then the inside of the cult are the people

that can come to the brunches. Which is this circle. During Grammy. Wow. Okay. What else we got? What else we got? We don't want to talk about this?

We just got into next thing. Okay, cool. Let's talk about Michael Eric Dyson. Oh, no. Let's do it. I didn't watch it. Just play it. Play it.

Michael Dyson. Purpose. On purpose. I just want everybody to know. Okay, so look. I saw it. As soon as I say, see him taking a majority of the screen, he always has his whole face in the screen.

I just, I can't with Michael. It's like, not now, Michael. You want to talk about issues that people are focused? Like, we have moved past this, Michael. Not now. Kim, people are dying. I don't care about you litigating Kendrick and Drake in 2026. Okay.

Can't say something? Yes. Right. I get it. You're right. Everything that you say is correct. Okay. Everything that you say. And I would just like to let you know that people are really digging this hair. This is your haircut. Oh, they like this one? So I want to just take, I want to take time. That's so random. You should have butter me up before you. Just put this, put this under the lower thirds. This is rage time. This is rage appreciation time. We're going to do this once a pod. Niggers, stop hit me up. Don't do it no more. Well, come. of you, I might pass along the message, but people really like this haircut. Oh, thank you. What do you think it is about the haircut?

I'm not fucking with you right now. I'm being for real. You know what it is? The plight is over. You know what it is? I told somebody. So this was a setup. Hold on, wait.

This was a setup. Wait, wait, wait. I told, I told, I told, I told, I told somebody that I think I know what it is about the haircut that's driving the streets crazy. Rachel got a good jaw. Isn't that the case? Donnie? Rachel got a good jaw.

I've taken HR classes and they specifically talk about not commenting on your co-workers in certain ways. I do have a good jaw. This is the Lindsay jaw. Stop. But I do.

But I do. But I do. But I do. But I do. I did walk into that one. Walked right into it. But I do. But I did walk into that.

But we all know what you really, because you've said it to me. I was talking to Kalika about this. Because when I first debuted to hair, I said something, I was like, well, she was like, no, I like it. I said, well, here's the thing. You know, sometimes people will say to me,

why don't you wear bangs? And she goes, really? And I said, Van said it. Oh, man. See, I, every- This is before your time. But you didn't say it and like, you were just like, how come you don't ever wear bangs?

And I was like, hmm. And so I didn't want to wear bangs because then it'll be like, oh, you need to keep wearing bangs type situation. I feel like it's the bangs and not the bob. Oh, it's the bangs. No, people liked my bob before and then I put bangs with it. But I think it's like, let's come on. We all know.

All roads lead to the forehead. Okay, people say it's the bag. Okay, so now Dr. Dyson. Okay. So this is us, what we're doing on higher learning, because we love our elders. We love the guys who have been talking. This Michael Eric Dyson, man.

He's been on the team. I know, but now when I think about him, I think of. What? Was it Nancy? Oh, shit. Was it Nancy? No, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, listen to Donnie.

That's a downer. It's all I think about now. It's like, it made me look at him in a completely different light. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Obviously, I respect him. I've read his books, but when I, it was so contrary to who, he is in my mind, but go ahead, Donnie.

Okay, so this is... Take us back two years. Okay, so let's not... So Dr. Dyson went on an episode of Jay Moore's Moore's Stories podcast, and he talked about the Kendrick Drake Beef. We have to play a little bit of it. Donnie, give us a little bit of it. Most people would acknowledge Kendrick as genius, but not Drake, right?

Drake is commercially viable? He's a monster. He sells records. But is he as deep as he is deep? Well, there's a genius to that, though. Oh, come on, bro. You understand that. Drake is being indicted by Kendrick Lamar, implicitly and explicitly, not like us.

The song is the song, whatever you think about it, but the notion itself, big distinction, us versus them. And they're trying to de-black Drake, right? Oh, he's not really black because he grew up in Canada. I grew up in Compton. Bro, you're reducing blackness to Compton? Did you not know that black people fled America going to Canada to escape the iron tyranny of enslavement? and he ain't black.

His daddy is black. He went to Memphis every summer. The Memphis horns fill his music. The first albums Drake made. His grandmama babysat Aretha Franklin. And his uncle is Larry Graham from Sly and the Family Stone. Okay. So a lot of people talked about that.

And a lot of people had a take on what Dr. Dyson had to say. Do you think that there's anything wrong with what Dr. Dyson is saying there? Yeah, he just missed the whole thing. Okay, well, now we're low energy talking about it now. We were going to talk about this when it first happened. But I do think that he's wrong. I think that he's wrong.

I mean, I think it's so obvious that it's not as simple as he's not saying you're not like us because you're black. It's more of a, you're not like us because of a lived experience, of a cultural experience. It's not, you're not like us because you didn't come from Compton. He's not reducing blackness to Compton. It's a cultural thing. I think that's an obvious distinction, and I don't, I guess I was, when I heard it, I was like, come on, come on. And in front of mixed company. Oh, in front of Jay Moore, he said it.

A lot of people have problem with that. All right, so Dr. Dyson is clarified. Donnie played. Hey, y'all, I'm Michael Eric Dyson here. Just want to give a few brief words of explanation and clarification about my views on the Kendrick versus. Drake beef. First of all, I think Kendrick Lamar is a genius. I also think that Drake is a genius. Their geniuses diverge in many instructive and compelling fashions. If we were to think about it in terms of preaching since I'm a preacher, Kendrick Lamar would be Martin Luther King Jr.

And Drake would be maybe TD Jakes. I don't mean that literally in terms of the themes with which they are associated. I'm talking about in terms of the stylistic approach, the methodological means by which they achieve their particular craft or art form. Number two, when I made the comparison between Kendrick and Donald Trump, I wasn't suggesting that Kendrick Lamar is in any way associated with Donald Trump. The comparison I am trying to make is that the notion of not like us, the song apart, whatever you think about the song, however you come to understand what its place is in the discography

of contemporary hip hop and rat beef, what I was suggesting, the notion that they are not like us, you are not like us, is something that is deeply entrenched in the culture. It predates what Kendrick said about Drake in his song. I was talking about a mannequin distinction between us and them that underwrites forms of bigotry, forms of hatred, forms of dismissal. We see this now when we see the president of the United States of America dismissing entire populations of peoples, groups of immigrants, because they are not like. us. They are not American. They are not speaking English the way we do. They do not adhere to the principles, ideals, visions, and virtues to which we subscribe. I was suggesting that in that notion, there was a resonance throughout the globe, certainly throughout America, where different

populations may have been attracted to this notion beyond its artistic expression beyond its rap pedigree. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is the last topic.

So do you, you've heard the clarification. Is there any way that you have changed your opinion of what, of what you said before about Dr. Dyson? I was waiting for him to change his opinion.

It was just a lot of words. He's smart. Oh, he's a very smart. I'm not taking that away from him. He's very smart, but that doesn't mean that you didn't get this one wrong. It was a swing and a miss, and then you went back up,

and you missed again. This time you struck out, like, because you just swung too hard. Like, it just, it was, he's just missing the point on this one. And that's fine. We can't always get it, right? But you're missing it.

You have a different take? Do you think, I thought you were going to say he was taking up for him, because I think that is the light skin thing. I knew that's where you would go. I think it's a light skin thing. It's a light skin thing.

I swear. When you put this out there, I was like he's going to say it's a light skin thing. I think it's a light skin thing. It too crossed my mind. Well, in the past, he has directly talked about the light skin situation with Kendrick.

This is not the first time he's opined on this. I think it's a light skin thing. It's like, I think Tyler the creator on Big Poe has it says I hate light skin niggas on my mama like you know and sometimes I know I it must be tough you know

but sometimes a lot of light skin niggas I know was you know brothers they're light skin brothers it is what it is it's a joke but like it's like a lot there are other light skin brothers that feel like maybe they're not as accepted because they light skin well it's a reverse is

they're not up right now the light skin brothers they're not up right now They never really were. No, they were. Lightskin brothers were? They were. Light skin sisters were up. Now.

Light skin brothers have never been as up as what we thought they were. But see, you said what they thought they were. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that they thought they were. I'm saying that if we look at a history, shout out to FD Signifier, who talks about this in this brilliant Tyler Perry video. I have to finish it. I'm halfway through.

If we look at the history of black male celebrity and desirability, the light-skinned black male has never, ever, ever really been up. Not like talking about. You've had brothers that have come in. Okay, let's do it back and forth. You name brown, I'll name light. Of like dudes that like ladies like?

Yes, let's go. Denzel Washington. Okay, Will Smith. That's kind of like. It counts. Keep going on. Okay. Tay Diggs.

Shmar Moore. Morse chestnut. Genuine Genuine Get the light skin pass Are we serious? Okay Wesley Snipes How like you

You want like Drake? Like okay genuine Okay fine You got genuine Wesley Snipes You don't think women They're not fucking Wesley Snipes like that

I think you got to take Wesley Snipes out Hold on Oh shit Wait a second Wait a second When they do a list of When they do a list Wesley Snipes not in it?

I don't think so God damn Maybe I need to call it Somebody to ask but I don't When you're only at like number five I do not think it would have been Wesley Okay damson Idris Oh gosh we're going that current

That's current Oh okay Because wait wait And I'm not even trying to just like win it To be fair The argument was Like they have not been in the past I am saying light skin is not up now

So I would say damson right now You're saying in the past That's fine Okay cool Michael Jordan. Deep chocolate-ass Jordan. The Jordan of chocolate.

Jim Jackson. See, okay, so you name the niggas that you like. Jim Jackson took Tony Braxton away. We talked about this in the... She came with Jason Kidd. She left with Jim Jackson. Come on.

So I'm looking at Jim Jackson, right? Jim Jackson. Jim Jackson is a beautiful man. Jim Jackson is a great-looking guy. That's light skin? I guess he likes. skin? I guess he's light skin. I guess Jim Jackson is light skin. Okay. Okay.

See, this is, you're thinking high yellow. You're thinking light, bright, damn near white. I'm talking. And I can't, you're right, I can't do those. Because me and Kalika had this argument because Kalika said that Tyra Banks is light skin. That's not light skin to me. I wouldn't have used her as an example. That's a, but if you're comparing her to

Naomi Campbell, then okay, but I wouldn't have. Like, they said the tire banks, okay, so look, but what I'm saying is like when you when you look at this, right? And the guys, I'm winning. You're not. You're not. Really, the whole.

Light skin men used to be up. They were never really up, though, is the point. And that's why they're feeling a certain way now because they're not. They were never, okay, you didn't even, you didn't even name Prince. Prince was one. You can have Prince. Prince was one. But they were never really.

They were never really up, though. They were never, we both get Michael. They were never really up. When you think about it, because there's really not even enough of them, right? They were never really up, all right? But I do think, because when you look at like... I didn't even say Jesse Williams. But that's getting more current.

If you throw Jesse... You're right. You can have Jesse. You can have Jesse. I'll throw Damson in there. You got Jesse. And we'll go back and forth and all of the... Tupac is...

You know what I'm saying? I'm not going to compete with. Like Tupac, I'll throw niggas in there. It's niggas to be thrown in the motherfuckers. They sure are. Okay? And I'm telling you that when you look at the hotness of the situation

it was never as big of a deal now I'll tell you what this is why I tell you in the neighborhoods particularly in Louisiana it felt like that sometimes sometimes it felt like that but it was never as big of a deal as what it seemed like right never never ever okay to me

now back to this so I do think that with Dr. Dyson in this particular situation that there is a little bit of that because he's also talked about Kendrick he's also talked about Drake being excluded from culture because he's light

skin and I was like oh you probably feel kind of feeling a certain way the reason why I have to believe this is because he's completely missing a really like easy cultural analysis

which is that every single culture does this as a matter of fact I could make the argument that the only culture that's actually expected not to set cultural standards for itself is black culture. There are cultures everywhere that if you don't eat the right thing, if you don't worship the right way, if you don't, they'll straight up litigate your belonging to your culture.

They'll, they'll, they have these arguments all the time. They might not have them with like great vitriol, but they have these arguments about what's authentically them all the time because that's the point of culture. Broader than culture, we have conversations about what's authentically southern, what's authentically West Coast, what's authentically American, what's authentically human. These are things that if you are going to be inside and insulated by cultural protection, they are going to want to know that they are protecting the right people. do some of these arguments sometimes become corrosive?

Sure. Sometimes we'll litigate. Like back in the day when one of my homeboys, his cousin told me that I talk white. And then this broke into a whole situation where my homeboy told his cousin that he wasn't shit and he was going to be ended up selling newspapers on airline highway. I was like, not too much, bro. Like, let me understand. Let me explain to him why this is not talking white or whatever. life. So we've had these conversations

to where some of this stuff gets corrosive. Even the light skin, dark skin thing that we just did. Some slave shit. Right? As is. So, but in this particular case, when we are, well, black culture is so ubiquitous.

And it exists everywhere. It's almost like an American ghost. There is a specter of black culture that is fundamental to all different parts of America. It's like I watch K-pop demon hunters

and I'm like niggas right like niggas. Yeah there's a whole history with K-pop. I get it but like I see that everywhere right I see I hear politicians go spill the tea I go

oh black gay culture right I see it everywhere I see it everywhere so it's like a we have to me a duty to ourselves to define in really broad ways to us but finite ways outside of us. What is authentically cultural? Do I think that Drake is not authentically black?

No. Right. No, he's black. He's black as fuck. Nigger. He's black. Drake is black. What Michael, what Michael, what Michael Dyson, Eric Dyson said is true.

Not only is Drake black, but the, foundation of his music is steeped in black cultural technology that is fundamental to black to black music fundamental to black music the fucking slap bass and all of that shit definitely black you can hear the Memphis in all of the different shit he's a rapper but there has been enough tape on Drake for people to wonder all kinds of things about him there's tape on him that's tape of him saying how people used to talk back in the day was ignorant he in that situation he in that was the guy telling me that like there's there's talk about there's talk about all of this stuff so it's not it's not unfair to him to litigate it I think it's unfair to him to say he's not black

yes and I agree I we've always had that stance and I and yes there's the picture of him and blackface there's and I think it also is like it's what he's talking about if you listen to the lyrics it's like you go to Atlanta you try to do this you come to L.A. you say these things you say Like, you say the, you act like you try to, you rap like you try to free the slaves. It's like things like that you say that it's like, wait a second. These are the things that he's talking about. Like even when, and we didn't play the whole Michael Eric Dyson clip the first one, but even in that one when he talks about, he's talking to Jay Moore and he's talking about,

um, Kendra talking about colonizing. It's like, well, he's talking about colonizing sound because there's the talk about how Drake, you know, the, the, the, with the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, UK drill and his accent, is it Jamaican that he tries to do? Yeah, well he does. But even that though,

he's not the first rapper to do that. No. He's not the first rapper to change up his sound based upon who he's around or who's producing him or go someplace and he sounds like them. But it can be litigated. Then the people can talk about it. Even that though, those are things that

exist inside of black culture. Those are for those cultures, really. This is the way I look at that. If Drake, right now, if I was to put out of Afro beats album, right? Well, we don't have anything to compare that to. But what do you mean? Like, you don't have other music. So I'd be...

Like what? Like what? You know what? I'm going to drop something. But you rap, you don't have music. In the next month, I'm going to drop some. Okay, and then you'll have music. Yeah.

But if you drop something, you know what I'm going to drop something in the next month so y'all can see what you're up. Great. If you dropped an Afro beats. thing right now, I'd be like, oh, that's his style. But here's the deal, though. Afrobeats is not a style that I'm supposed to endeavor into. Afrobeats is a West African form of mainstream music that some would say is for WizKid, is for Burner Boy, is for everybody over there that's doing that, right?

And it's like me making reggae, right? No matter what the connections between. I would have assumed you had a connection to what you did. God, if you came out with the red came out. So what I'm saying is, but listen to, bop, bop, bop, you know what I'm saying? Bup, bup, bup. Tinga linga-ling, school bell ring. What's next?

Tingaling, galing, school beryn. Who knows what's next? Who knows what comes next? Take the stars out the sky for you. There's nothing in this world that I wouldn't do. That's not what's next. So what I'm saying is if I was to do, if I was to do that type of music, I would expect there be there to be people that did that type of music,

people that are from the islands or people that are from different parts of London or West Africa, that that is more, that is we are all black, but that is a different form of black cultural expression to be like, hey, should you be doing this? If you are an American-born black man from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, should you? But that is their argument. That's for them to decide whether or not that entree into that is cool with them. For me, looking at somebody else that will go do that, I'm like, well, all right, you want to do, you want to, the records called Galchester.

Put that bitch on. If it's good with skepta, it's good with me. You're not a skeptic. If it's good, another one. New. Another one. See what you just did. New.

New. No. I'm with it. Another one. Right now. Another one. Burn a boy skepta all of them. Okay, they're going to come to get you.

The grill of people going to fuck you up. But like, the grill people go fuck you up. But like, you just just burn a boy. Burn a boy people on online is crazy. The grill people are going to fuck you up. But I'm just saying, so all of that stuff, it's like, it is what it is. I wasn't, I'm not really tripping about. about that.

The free to slaves thing. What? The free to slaves thing is interesting. That just shows that you're disconnected. Like you would never say that. You would easily know how problematic that is and how distant from the culture. You rap,

it like you try to free the slaves. Rapping like you try to free the slaves is interesting. Just because I'm sure. You don't get it. There's other niggas in rap that have said similar things. Like, you know, Wayne's saying, I never face racism like different people

saying you rapping like you're trying to free the slaves is my nigga come on dog had Wayne vacation was Wayne vacationing when he made that comment

shout out to Cam Newton by the way was Wayne still in his vacation Cam Newton did his own black vacationers I do have one thing I should say about Cam Newton's list

there are people so Cam Newton's list first of all is great content jeans the Wayne one Wayne vacationed right you did it right just for

clarification you did a white vacationer and he played that video and said he was going to make his list of black vacationers black vacationers list and i thought it was very funny the only thing i'll say about it is with some of the people that were on the list it was hard to some of them just came home yeah like when i said came home i mean it seemed like they was really because to take the vacation you got to be black then what you're going to be black then what you're white, then come back black. Or to take the vacation, you got to be white, then black, and then come back white. If you never really were

a part of black culture, and then you become a part of it, you're never really vacation, and that's what you just came home. Did you want to add anybody to the list? Not really. Okay, go for it. This is what the fuck I'm talking about.

Rachel Lindsay's list. No, I just have one name. Who? Me. This is unexpected. This is unexpected. This is, this was, that was a turn, folks. As I was thinking about this and I was like trying to go through a list of people,

I started laughing to myself and I was like, me. Now, according to your definition, I would think people would say this to me. I'm being funny, but in all, seriousness, I don't think that I stopped being black, but I can see the argument being made for it. I went on a white show. I dated. Most of the people who come on the show aren't black, so I was dating a lot of white people. I ended up choosing somebody.

A lot of scheme. It was white, even though he's Latin, it was still white. You know what I mean? I married him. So I could see how people could be like, we lost her for a bit. Because what was the first thing I said when I came from being divorced? And you were like trying to set me out with people. I said, no.

I've come back home. Because a lot of white guys was trying to choose up. Rachel wasn't with it. Are you still, are you, are you maintaining that trajectory? I'm still home. I'm still, I'm, I'm, I've come home. Damn. Tough.

All right, look, shout out to Rach, that was hilarious. I didn't think that you was going to put yourself. That's Rachel's. They don't think that I hold my, like, they don't think I do that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. But see, this is, this is why there's hope for you and Omar. Don't put our names in the same sentence like that. This is why it's hope for you and Omar.

I feel like... There's nothing for us. I feel like you and Omar could have a conversation. What did he say? He said you were snow puppy. He did what? He said you were snow puppy.

Oh yeah, he said I was snow puppy. People say that's why I go so hard on him. No, because he's a fraud. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.

You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Umar, Dr. Dyson. No, no. No. They're not the same. joining us today from A Perfect Neighbor, the documentary,

and Standing in the Gap Fund, Takima Robinson and Pam D.S. Thank you for having you. Okay. Thank you for having it. First question. And either one of you can take this. This stuff is hard to talk about.

This subject is difficult. Watching the documentary is eye-opening, but it's also rage-inducing because of the finality, the reality of it. How does it feel to have put this out in the world, but also have to continuously relive all of the events of the documentary over and over again as you talk about the filmmaking

and discuss the project itself. Are you guys okay? I'll start with that. I'll answer that first. So talking about the documentary is kind of twofold. So I don't view it as reliving what happened because I live it every day. So I see the effects of what happened on June

2nd with myself personally, my own grief, and then with the children. But also, it is very hard to watch. You know, those were my daughter's final moments of life, her life that should have never ended, especially in the manner of what you did. So it does live with me, excuse me, but not because I'm watching the film or I'm talking about it. It lives with me because I'm living it on a daily basis. But again, sometimes it can be therapeutic

because I see what is wrong with our society and that the film is bringing light and shedding awareness on issues that we face daily as people of color. So with that being said, I'm going to turn it over to Tekema. So I would say, first of all, I appreciate this as the first question, asking us how we're doing. Oftentimes, that's not where we start this conversation. And so even just a moment to pause in that, because I think what's important is to folks to understand that, we were directly impacted and we turned that pain into purpose through this film. And so, you know, my sister, Gita Gondibair is the director.

My brother is a producer. I'm an EP. My youngest sister, my little sister, our little sister, was AJ's best friend. And so for us, this has been grief work. This wasn't just another documentary. This was our way of working through grief. we brought what we had to offer to Pam, and we wanted to support the family in any way that we could. And so knowing through this film, we've been able to support the family with a significant amount of resources that we got from the Netflix deal that heals our hearts.

knowing that the world knows AJ's name and that she's not forgotten is an act of healing ourselves. And knowing that we've started a national and global conversation about what it means to be a perfect neighbor and how we live in a country that continues to commit acts of racial violence, either through the state or through neighbors, those things actually, empower us and have been part of our grief journey. So I think we've actually found a lot of healing through this process, even though there are days when Pam is sad or the kids are sad or we're feeling sad that we find, you know, we find it difficult to talk about. But we've also found a lot of purpose out of this pain through this film. Yeah, I want to kind of build on

what you guys are saying because it is so important that we remember. AJ, not just for the tragedy that took her life, but for the life that she lived and the love that she gave and for the legacy that you guys are talking about. And so I want to say, you know, could you tell us a little bit about AJ and what it was that made her laugh and what she loved and how you remember her most? Aschika, so I rarely, I didn't call her AJ. So I always call her by her nickname that she's had since a baby. So I'm going to say it, you know, Bootsie. She was, so she was given that nickname because most people could not pronounce her name correctly. But let's see, first of all,

she was just full of life and really she was a funny person. And really, she was a funny person. She chose her friends very wisely. She was very selective in who she led into her inner circle. They had to add value to her life. Gosh, she was just probably one of the wisest people that I knew that I've known. Oftentimes when I find myself in predicament, I would, reach out, call her and say, hey, this is what's going on. And she'd always give me a new perspective of how to look at the situation.

She had a heart of gold. I mean, being a single mom, she didn't have many resources. But she often shared what little she had. She opened her home up to people who were in need. She donated to homeless shelters. She was just an amazing person. Fierce protector of the people that she loved. That goes without saying.

But gosh, she just was a person. And as a single mom, you know, she struggled. She was always there. She showed up for her children. She showed up for a football practice. She was a team mom. her daughter, Africa, was in my granddaughter, was in dance and gymnastics. She was just present in every aspect of your kids living.

And again, being a single mom, she had really big dreams for herself. And I've shared this story and it's just, it's something that just brings chills to me, being that we're in this space now and where we are, that she would say that the world was going to know her name. And she was such big dreams of being an entrepreneur. And I did not necessarily believe in her ideas. But again, she was emphatic about the world was going to know her name. And it really has come to pence.

And one of the things I really admire about her was her source of faith. You know, she taught me, being my daughter, taught me what it means to have faith. And that has really cared me through these times. So that is the short, just of who Ajika was. Thank you for sharing that. Bootsie. Bootsie. Bootsie.

Bootsie. I watch a lot of documentaries, like a ton of them. And most documentaries have to speak to people. All documentaries have to speak two people. But there are a few that speak for people. And this is one that has to do that. From a filmmaking standpoint, from a storytelling standpoint, how did you guys wrestle with giving the factual occurrence of what happened?

And also speaking for someone and giving basically their testimony, since they're no longer here to give that testimony. Yeah, thank you for that. You know, it's so interesting. We started to document shortly after we got the phone call and I got on the ground to support the family. So we started documenting the aftermath, documenting our attempts to get the police to arrest, Susan,

the community organizing around the charges. That was actually our initial body, work and we were really doing that to advocate within the media. We started to see on local news these small snippets of these interactions between the police and Susan and the community. And that kind of sparked an idea to do a FOIA request, a Freedom of Information Act for the footage. Again, we were still trying to gather that footage really thinking about advocacy, making

sure that her story didn't disappear from the news cycle, making sure that we could apply the pressure. And we were ultimately thinking about Department of Justice charges, right? Using this footage to craft and appeal to the DOJ, because at that time, we're talking about a Biden administration. We had been in touch with the administration. We had been talking very closely to Vice President Kamala Harris's office about those DOJ charges. They had just successfully won. cases for both Brianna Taylor and Aubrey, Ahmad Aubrey, right? And so that was, you know, our thinking when we originally FOIA requested for the footage. I happened to come from an amazing family of activists and artists. And Gita Gondabir, who became the director of The

Perfect Neighbor, was one of them. And I asked her to actually look at this footage and string it along in chronological order so we could just see what was there. Gita did that again, thinking about this as an advocacy strategy, and that's what we discovered this like slow moving horror story that played out through this footage. Gita's done, yeah, Gita's done other amazing work. I call her like queen of archival when it comes to, she's an editor by training. And so she did when the levees broke. And so think about all the archival footage in that. And so we're giving her sort of directorial,

but also editorial brain, that's really where she saw the story. So not necessarily in documenting the aftermath, which we often see. But like this is the first time we get a window into seeing what led up to what happened from the perspective of the police, who are, unbeknownst to them, filming a document, And it was really her in our editor, Very Lieberman, who decided to really stay with the footage as opposed to doing interviews and voiceover because the footage was just so undeniable that they really felt like, and I think they made the right decisions, that we could trust the audience, right, to hold this, to view this, to witness this with us and come to their own conclusions about what happened.

And so those are how those decisions were made and sort of shaped what became the perfect neighbor, which in my opinion definitely just changes the genre and the way we think about how police footage can be used in these spaces. First of all, I've never heard the genesis of a documentary being like that ever. Yeah. Never. I've never heard that before. It's starting in advocacy looking at the footage and going, we have a narrative here in the story. Secondly, I want to bring that up just real quick about a. perfect neighbor of the perfect neighbor should say because there you don't get an escape out of what's

happening there's not a time where you get to catch your breath and go back to somebody that contextualizes what's happening for you and says this happened this time this happened this time I'm detective whomever so-and-so whatever or I work with this because you stay there the whole time it plays out like really this this horror movie and it gets to the end and you just stay in the middle of it the whole time, which is fantastic. It was phenomenal filmmaking. But what a novel way to come about the film. Was there any time where you guys questioned whether or not you needed to have somebody come in there and contextualize what was going on or give people a breather from really the scary stuff that they were watching as the film builds its momentum?

Yeah. I mean, I think those things were considered, but I think that in her sort of artistic vision, Gita really made the decision to trust the footage and trust the audience. And I think that is why the film is so impactful. I say this all the time and it hurts my heart to say this. Had we just made another Talking Heads documentary about a black girl dying, I don't think we would be here right now. I think it was in those decisions and the fact that we could trust the audience. One thing I think that's interesting for me is that we've become so desensitized to violence in general, but definitely racial violence in our country. And we often see the actual act of violence, right? We watch George Floyd die. This is a little bit different. We actually see what led up

to this occurring. And we have to, to van your point, we then have to sit with the emotional impact on the other side, right? There's not actually, there's no footage of the actual shooting. Right. You don't see a lot of the actual violence. And I think those choices are also really interesting because we've been desensitized to the violent act itself. But what we never have to do is bear witness to what let up and then sit in the aftermath. Yeah, it's just to build on that, it's just so relevant in the sense of how people consume things now. Like you're talking about how people, how we are desensitized to certain things and watching the real and raw. footage almost was even more impactful, I think, for the way that we consume things now as a

society. And Pam, I'll bring you in, you know, on this questioning because watching it, watching the story being told like that, I'm just wondering, you know, how you guys decided to balance accuracy with compassion and maybe even because we do get the perspective from your grandchildren, Pam. And I'm wondering, you know, what approach did you take in telling their story, but also protecting them while, you know, just showing the reality of what happened. Not to add that. I wasn't involved in the filmmaking process. Once Gita had the raw final footage, she brought it to me for my blessing. I had the ability to say, yes, we can go forward with a film or no, we cannot.

And so I really appreciate Gita. allowing me that choice because that decision, because it is very emotional, it is very hard to not only see my daughter there and her final moment, but the impact that will think is on the children. So when I initially watched the film, I watched it from the standpoint of grieving mother

and a grieving grandmother. And after I watched it, it took me a bit to get through it. in its entirety, I was ill. I was ill. And at that very moment, I'm said to myself, I cannot do this. You know, I'm seeing my grandchildren with their rawest emotion and deepest pain that they will probably ever experience in life that I can't go forward. So as my daughter would say, pray about it.

So I prayed over it. I prayed. And then I watched it again. And this time, it was as if that led me to watch it in a different lens. So I'm watching it and I'm seeing the bigger story. I'm seeing all the layers to the film. And I said that have a responsibility. to share this with the world.

You know, I have to move beyond my pain, my grief, my sadness, and share with the world what really happens to people of color. What happens when guns are placed in the wrong hands? What happens when we have laws like stand your ground? It happens when you have racism. It happens when you have biases.

You know, you can't. couple, you add all of that together, there was just no way that I could sit on on it. And I'm just thankful that I had the strength and that I was obedient to the call. So standing in the gap fund, this is something that you guys have started together to a little bit, tell people a little bit about the organization. It's goals, it's aims, why you guys started it. and what you hope to do. Absolutely. So standing in the gap from was actually created in the first couple of weeks after AJ left us.

Because I've worked in philanthropy my entire life, and here I am personally impacted and could not move money. And that was extremely frustrating to me. We had to launch GoFundMe's while we were also trying to plan a funeral, while we were also trying to change diapers and consult children. And it just felt like the most unfair burden. Pam was about to live the second half of her life as a flight attendant, living in Atlanta, getting ready to, you know, pursue a new chapter. And here she is finding herself responsible now for four children. It just felt so deeply unfair.

And so we created it as a necessity. It is located at the Greater Washington Community Foundation. It's Tows there. but it allowed me to move money from donors and philanthropists to the family quickly. The other thing is there was a need to organize the community, right? We needed to organize around Susan's arrests. We needed to organize around the charges. And organizing takes money, right?

And so I was also frustrated that we weren't able to get any resources quickly to community for the organizing they had to do. And that felt deeply unfair. And so it really was first created out of necessity to support us in that moment. And then it felt like a responsibility, right? No other family going through this should have to wonder where the resources are for burial expenses or for being rehoused. We actually were under 24 hours security for almost two months because of death threats, right?

So why should we have to bear the financial burden of that to secure? keep this family safe. And so it was born out of our necessity. And as we continue to move forward, it made sense to continue to do this work in AJ's name and to honor her legacy. And now standing in the end of the gap also serves as the impact campaign for the documentary itself. I can't get past Pam, you saying, or just the fact that you, the strength it must have taken for you to put the personal to the same. side in order to see the bigger picture, as you said it, and realize the impact that this documentary, that AJ's story could have, but also just educating people on stand your ground

laws and creating, I guess, a new precedent. You can say with what, you know, as you're watching the documentary, and for those who haven't watched, I don't want to give, you know, like, say too much about it. But there are statistics of what, of deaths and the percentages and the increase in deaths because of this law. There are people who are familiar with it in conversation, but you learn more about it as you're watching the documentary. You learned that there was, as Susan's being interrogated, that she was kind of checking off a certain list of things that she had researched, which comes out. So I guess all that to say, as people are watching this documentary, and millions of people have watched it already, and millions will continue to watch it, what conversation

you know, as you were looking at the bigger picture, and this is for both of you, do you hope that this film sparks within communities? What do you hope that people learned when it comes to justice or even accountability? Sorry, that's a lot. Well, my response to that is very simple. The film is very emotional.

It's very, it can be triggering, it can be traumatic. It can raise emotions such as, anger, but we have to move beyond the emotions of it all. And look at the bigger picture as I did. This film is a clear depiction of call to action and need for change, and need for change in how we live in our communities,

how we relate to one another. The shooter, Susan, didn't even open the door. My daughter was simply coming to have have was knocking down the door, first and foremost, for her children, to say that her children are loved. And also, she was standing up for every black and brown child that just because we are people of color, our lives matter that you don't get to, you know, call us in words and you don't get to be racist towards us. So it opens up a conversation that is so vast, It's, you know, it's heartbreaking that we're living in these times and we're still having conversations about racism.

We're still making films and documentaries about racist. People are losing their lives because of racism. People are losing their lives because of laws that emboldened them, such as Stand Your Ground. So there's a necessary film. And it is really a truly call to action. And I hope that people move beyond their emotions. I hope that their emotions drive them, fuel them to act. Absolutely.

I think it's so ironic that, you know, if you think about the trajectory of, you know, this modern civil rights era, Black Lives Matter was launched with Trayvon Martin. And that is a stay-in-your-ground case. that occurred right down the street from where AJ lost her life. The history of staying your ground actually begins in Marion County. The person, Representative Baxley, co-wrote the original legislation. He's the representative from Marion County co-wrote it with the NRA, right? So to me, this is a full circle moment.

And then having an all-white jury convict Susan to 25 years for basically weaponizing Stand-Yer ground and premeditating, you know, and converting. Absolutely, doing the research and everything else, as you mentioned. So I think that we want people to connect those dots.

And what we always come back to is that if you think about this movie and you think about this community, we saw the best of us and we saw the worst of us. The best of us was those children playing, right? Clearly supervised, multiracial, working class. That's the kind of community I agree.

up in, right, where you came in when the street light went on, you know, where you were playing, you know, basketball and, you know, red light green light, you know. So we did see the best of us. And we also saw the way that the community came together that night to support each other and beyond. So I don't want people to miss those parts, right? That there was also the best of us in this film. Susan was the outlier. And it's laws like staying your ground that emboldened folks like that who want to stand behind it, hide behind it, and commit acts of racial violence. It comes, its genesis come in vigilante, and vigilantism and white vigilanteism. And we know the history of that in our country.

And so we always come back to this saying that we have at standing in the gap call we got us. So for me, it's reminding us to be the perfect neighbor, to show up for each other with whatever we have, whether it be a cup of sugar or whatever skills we have to support each other as neighbors. To Pam's point in this day and age, that's what we need more of. And that's what we hope people take away from the film in addition to the grief, in addition to the tragedy, in addition to the action that needs to take place to change laws that don't keep us all safe. We also want folks to be reminded about what it means to actually show up for one another and to be neighbors.

To Kima, Pam, we thank you for guys, you guys for joining this. We haven't talked that much about the Academy Awards, because honestly, it sometimes seems a little, I don't know, tried to discuss them when we're talking about some of the things that the film investigates and interrogates. But the film is an overwhelming favorite to win the Best Documentary Feature Academy Award, which was. be an incredible honor. So we are hoping that it does because of the visibility that comes along with winning that award. But more than anything, we're hoping for increasing visibility on what it is that we're going through, the issues that we're talking about.

And of course, Pam, the healing of your family. So we're glad you guys were able to join us. And when you're out in town, if you're out, when you're out, y'all in L.A., say, what's up, you know? That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Celebratory drinks or whatever, but healing, blessings,

light to both of you guys. Thank you for joining us on higher learning today. Thank you guys. All right. We got to go. We give you guys a lot of podcasts. I'm sorry that I couldn't keep my headphones straight or something's wrong with this, Mike.

I want to say thank you to Kima and to Pam to coming on. You guys should go check out the perfect neighbor. I do think that it is as close to. shoe in for the Academy Award as it's possible. We will be doing Academy Awards content next week of some time. I don't know. We're probably going to do a post show. Post show, pre and post show.

Yeah. Post show next. Have you watched all the movies? No. Okay, so Rachel's still on her goal of watching all the movies. We will check back in with that. Take deep caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Gogh, Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay.