Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Trump Vs. Colorado, Plus Friendship and Freedom With Mandii B

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay talk about Taraji P. Henson and pay disparities in Hollywood (11:45) before discussing a Black gay Republican’s experience being heckled at a MAGA event (29:47). Then, constitutional law professor Caroline Mala Corbin joins to break down the Colorado Supreme Court’s decision to remove Donald Trump from the ballot (36:25) before switching gears to welcome podcast host Mandii B to talk 'No Jumper' and Adam22’s “friendship” with Crip Mac (55:38). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Caroline Mala Corbin and Mandii B Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, y'all, y'all, though, warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is I, Van Latham, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel. Man. What's going on?

We've already done, we've done some pretty amazing interviews already in the pod. Before the pod, we're already into it. We really haven't been working hard for the people. You know, most people have signed off. They'll tell you at this way, especially in our industry, they'll say, I see you in January, but not us. We just knocked off several interviews and are ready to podcast now. We do our fucking thing.

We do. We do. So there's been some reactions to some of the issues that we talked about on the last podcast. What was the last podcast, Jonathan? Jesus Christ. Are you okay? Well, no, you know I'm not okay. You know, it just happened.

but wait Jonathan is that the last one? Not so much Jonathan as much as the male molestation clip Oh that's gone viral

People have been sending that to me And you struck a nerve Rightfully so And then What else are you talking about? Anthony Edwards, it was Anthony It was Anthony You know you're right

Because I thought people Would be on you And they're on me Are they? I don't think they're on anyone I've got to semesters. I want to just address something about what I said about the male molestation clip.

I want to address something. Real quick, then we move on. Go back and let's talk about stuff that happened on the podcast before. I want brothers out there to protect their healing as much as they protect their trauma. And that's very difficult for everyone. It's very difficult to protect your healing as much as you've protected your trauma. Our trauma is so very important to us because we feel like it creates us. We feel like it makes us.

We feel like our trauma is the thing that's forged us out of steel. You know? You know, like I come from this place and I grew up here. I survived this. Like, you know, your life, it doesn't have to be this endless narrative about the things that you've survived. I know that those things create bonds. Anytime you go through something with a group of people or your family. family or your boys or your loved ones.

You know, we've been through this. We did it together. Boom, we overcame it. That doesn't have to be your entire narrative. Your entire narrative can be about, yeah, I've survived something. I've came from this place, but let me tell you how I'm going to heal, fix myself, look at things differently, and then go forth so nobody has to survive me. Mm-hmm.

And I'm not saying I'm doing a great job of that. I'm just saying it's okay to recognize something happened to me I might not be a victim for it I might not be tortured by it but what happened to me was wrong and moving forward

moving forward I want to make sure I acknowledge that it was wrong so that it doesn't happen to somebody else that's the important thing it's not about whether or not you feel like a victim it's about the fact that the acknowledgement of something happening wrong means that we can move forward

and you and identify that thing in the proper context. That's it. That's it. Not trying to tell everybody to say, hey, everybody says, I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to look at it like that. It doesn't matter. What happened to you was wrong. And if we wanted to stop happening,

then we have to identify it as such. Because we don't want anybody to have to survive you. We don't want anyone, we don't want you thinking that it's okay for your sons to do that, and then you put them up to doing that or you go get someone to do that to them, we need to talk about what's wrong

and what's better for our sons and daughters. Okay, that's it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We got a lot of podcasts today. Should we just get into it? Do you want to pleasant it? You want to get pleasant? I know, I'm fine.

We could just get right into it. Why keep the people waiting? They came to hear what we want to discuss. We had a half-hour conversation last night. I called you. You called me. You and Kalika. Y'all both called.

which I always love is a treat, right? When I can hear Kalika in the background or vice versa, Kalika calls, I hear you in the background. I know it's going to be good, good, good conversation. That's great. We got to talk about pay. So we got some guests today. We got Caroline.

Oh, that's not what we talked about on the phone. That's not. I can't remember what it was now. Oh, I do. It's about the bishop. Oh, oh, hold on. Wait a minute. It's about the bishop.

Hold on. Hold on. Wait a minute. Donnie, pop in real. quick. Yeah. Should we do this as a topic? Or should we just talk about it right now.

I think right now. Yeah. Because there's nothing solid. It's getting chilly out here. And the glove doesn't work with the laptop. Don, you got one glove on like MJ, bro. Yeah.

Is it the right side or the left side with MJ? I don't know. But with the TDJ stuff, I feel like all this stuff is kind of like, it's not solid news. So let's not put it in the in the show, let's get it done in pleasantries. I think that makes the most sense. Yeah, I agree.

So T.D. Jax has been trending for the last couple of Ashley's. Okay. Ashley. Got a little glow. T.D. Jakes has been trending for like the last day because of some of the wildest shit allegations. I don't even repeat the allegations. If you want to know why T.D. Jakes is trending on Twitter, go look at it. Yeah.

As to do with stuff that's swirling around Dittie right now and stuff like that. All kinds of crazy allegations. All alleged. When I say everything is alleged, every single thing is alleged. And when I say alleged, it's not even, it's coming,

I've seen a TikTok video that is making the allegations coming from someone else. Everybody has run with this. Like, it's a point of fact. Like, it's absolutely true. Why? Like, why is everyone,

everyone seems to believe this about, TD Jakes. And I'm trying to understand why when something is said like that, does everyone just go, okay, now we know who this person really is? Do you think that that's always the case? Or specifically with this, with the timing of everything that's come out as that law in New York was about, Adult Survivors Act was coming to an end. We started to hear, obviously we got Diddy, which was the biggest bombshell, but you started to hear about other people who had been accused. And so this kind of the timing of this as well as how who it involves and the allegations are so anti what this person's represents or stands for.

I think people are just in a position where they're like, well, what is the truth? What is the truth? Or I can't, I never expected to hear about this from this person. So what takes this person off the hook? I think it's just a weird time right now. I think people would be eating it up regardless, but now in light of everything that's happened towards the end of this year, I just think there's more of an appetite for it. Is it bad to call for responsibility amongst us? By the way, I don't know TD Jakes. I've never

met T.D. Jakes. I don't have a relationship with T.D. Jakes. I don't know nobody who know T.D. Jakes. I might, there might be some people who follow me or whatever, but I've never met, no, gone to the church, done none of it. You will be. one of his church parishioners for a while. I went to one service and that was enough. I'm from Dallas, which, and I'm from Oak Cliff to be exact, which is where the Potter's house is. And within that five mile radius, there are five mega, four mega churches.

Do you know what I'm saying? So I am, I don't know him personally, but I know a lot of people who know him or his family. Don't we have to be responsible? What I mean is this. So the Cassie allegations are allegations that are made in a lawsuit that have great detail to them, that are people have looked over and come together and there's been information compiled and it's taken time. And a lot of the other lawsuits that came out around the Adult Survivors Act have dates and they have times and they have stuff that's been very thoroughly vetted and investigated. at least by the people who are bringing suit, right?

If we're being honest, this is just talk. And I don't, not saying that it's true or untrue, I'm saying this is just talk. Don't we have to be a little bit more responsible in the way that we respond to some of this stuff so that we don't just all jump on the bandwagon of this is absolutely true right away? But don't, I get the response, right?

We should be responsible. But I think as human beings, is just such a curiosity for mess and drama that it overrides being responsible. But what I will say in response to you using the Cassie Diddy lawsuit allegations as an example is, for years, there were rumors about Cassie and Diddy. Not in the specifics as to what was alleged in the lawsuit,

but there were rumors that something was not right. and it took years for this lawsuit to come out and for her to be outspoken. And it kind of confirmed a lot of what people had speculated. So I think knowing that, who's to say now that some of the rumors you're hearing, there might not be some degree of truth to them. And I think that's how people think as well. Just to play devil's advocate. Don't talk about the devil.

Well, T. Jakes. I don't know. It just seems like right now, I'm not saying, I'm not imputing anybody's reporting or saying whatever. I'm not doing any of that.

But there's a whole contingent that's just moving forward as if this is the true. Yeah, and that's wrong. There's no article. There's no, like nobody's verified. It's, but it's definitely was trending, along with other words,

that we're not going to mention on higher learning. All right. But you had to explain it. Did you have to explain? Let's explain them to me. We have no jumper news today. A conversation with Mandy B

from horrible decisions about whether or not you should show up for your employees if they get in legal trouble or your friends, your friend slash employees if they get up in legal trouble. This is inspired by a conversation happening over in the jumper verse. We also have

Caroline Corbyn discussing Colorado's decision to take Trump off the ballot for being an insurrectionist. You insurrection bitch you. But first pay disparity in Hollywood. Taraja Bansom, the other side of the spake.

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Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Tram Faya, including important safety information. Tragh B. Vincent has a new movie coming out, The Color Purple, which a lot of people are excited about. Yeah. You're going to go check that out. You're going to go see it?

Oh, absolutely. What's your favorite moment from the color purple of the movie from before? Oh, it's got to be when Shug can hear the church. her father's church and she can hear them singing the song. She starts singing it from the juke joint. That's my favorite part. That's crazy.

I get chills when she's singing as she's walking back to the church, which if you've seen the movie, her father and her don't have a relationship because she's in these streets and he's a pastor of church. And that moment where she comes singing through, I'm going to watch it after this. No, you don't like it? I love it.

That's the best part of the movie. interesting to me though that it resonates with you so much maybe that's your life yes yes at fuel city uh tries to be hits and play shook in this new musical adaptation of the color purple and she talks about her career she talked about her career in a recent interview and the pay disparities that exist particularly for actresses of color in hollywood she got very emotional while doing so. Donnie. I'm just tired of working

so hard being gracious at what I do, getting paid a fraction of the cost. I'm tired of hearing my sister say the same thing over and over. You get tired. I hear people go, you work a lot.

I'll have to. The math ain't mathing. And when you start working a lot, you know, you have a team. big bills come with what we do. We don't do this alone. The fact that we're up is a whole entire team behind us.

They have to get paid. So when you hear someone saying, oh, such and such made $10 million, no, that's not, that didn't make it to their account. Know that off the top, Uncle Sam is getting 50%. Okay? So do the math.

Now we have $5 million. Your team is getting 30% or whatever your team is off of what you grossed. Not after what Uncle Sam took now do the math. So I just, I'm, I'm only human and it seems every time I do something and I break another glass ceiling, when it's time to renegotiate, I'm at the bottom again.

Like I never did what I just did and I'm just tired. I'm tired. I'm tired. I get that. It wears on you, you know? Because what does that mean? What is that telling me? What is it telling me? me. Yeah. And what does it tell me? Yeah. You know? And if I can't fight for them coming up behind me,

then what the fuck am I doing? I'm sorry. Yeah. She also went on to talk about the fact that she almost walked away from the color purple because of her pay. I haven't seen a raise in my income since Proud Mary and almost had to walk away from color purple. What? Yes, ma'am. Who said what? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Because you know what? If I don't take a stand,

how am I making it easy for Fantasia? And Danielle and Hallie and Felicia. Why am I doing this? If it's all just for me, what the, why are you here? Ooh, I mean, it's not the first time that Taraji has been outspoken about equal pay. I think we all were shocked and remembered. remember when she talked about that amazing performance she had in Benjamin Button and that she barely received anything for it.

I can't remember if she said the specific number or not, but it was then just shocking. I think Brad made $10 million and she made $100 or $150,000. She had asked for $500,000. I think she made $100 or $150,000. Is that what she was nominated for it, too? She was nominated for that role. Yeah, wow. And she was nominated for an Oscar for it.

so meaning they had a whole push behind her to receive that nomination but didn't want to pay her. Okay, let's be fair now. The push came after the movie came out. You negotiate your salary before the release of her. Correct. I know that. But the decision still to push her in that knowing what, that they negotiated her pay in a way that was significantly less than the guy who was, I don't even know if Brad was nominated that year,

but the star of the film. Listen, black women in every industry have been outspoken about receiving equal pay. But I think what strikes a nerve with this one is because there's a perception around being in Hollywood

that you do make all this money. Or people do think that you've made it, or they almost aren't even sympathetic to you because you're in an industry that makes you famous. And it's glamorous from the outside looking in. And so I think this was really powerful because it's not glamorous. It's hard out here. And Taraji is breaking the fourth wall by shedding those tears and calling out this industry

and shedding a light on the fact that they're not paid equally. And I hope that more people, and she's not the first person to do it, but this, I think in light of it being her and that she's done it before and with color purple coming out, you wouldn't think she would be the one, but she is. And so I'm happy to see her doing it. And I'm happy to see that, you know, Kiki Palmer put out something. Other people have been outspoken. And I'm glad that she's saying I'm doing this because of the people coming after me, not just for myself.

So I've seen a lot of positive messages and compassion surrounding her. So I'm happy, I'm happy to see that. Yeah, I think that the pay disparity in Hollywood has to be addressed. Pay disparities everywhere have to be addressed. I do wonder, though, what the best way to do it is. And when I say that, I mean, I think in order to address such a specific problem, we have to get into specifics when we're addressing it. you know, and I think that's just in terms of, like, in a way to find a solution,

we have to, like, address, we have to address, like, specific issues here. So we have to know because the disparity between Taraji P. Henson and Brad Pitt on Benjamin Budden can be explained. I mean, it can be explained. He was nominated for Best Actor for that movie. Okay, he was. But, like, but that can be explained. I mean, that's really easy.

The easy one is that he's Brad Pitt and had been Brad Pitt for a long time. This is Post-Mr. and Mrs. Smith. He's one of the highest-paid actors in Hollywood. So, like, it's going to... There's going to be a situation. They're coming to see the movie because of him. His face is on the poster.

Right. It's not that he got 10 million is that she couldn't even get half. Yeah. Well... Half a million, not half of 10 million. If you... The question is, why would she get half? Right?

I'd have to look at... I'd have to look at... So I'm asking, and so what I'm saying is, and I don't mean that to sound like crass or cruel, and this goes for anyone, right? Yeah. If, I don't know, like Terrence Howard talks about how much he made. Terence Howard talks about how much he made for hustle and flow. And it wasn't a lot of money. It wasn't a lot of money that he made for hustle and flow.

Well, it's not going to be a lot of money that he made for hustle and flow because hustle and flow was a movie that had a very specific budget that was targeting a very specific audience. That's a big budget Hollywood film. And if you want to make a half a million dollars, a million dollars or whatever for that movie, for them to play Brad, they're going to try to pay you what they can on that. Now, I would imagine that after Empire, when she had a larger cachet, that she probably got more money. The question that I'm asking, and I think Monique asked this question, and during the thing

that Monique was talking about, I think this is the part of it that people did not listen to. The question is not if you're underpaid. The question is, how much should you be making? Like, that's the question. Monique, when she was on the Breakfast Club, she was talking about the fact that she made, that Amy Schumer made $20 million.

Chris Rock made $20 million. And Kevin Hart or whoever, Dave Chappelle had made $20 million, all for these specials, right? they'd all made $20 million or whatever for these specials. Monique said something that a lot of people didn't pay attention to. People were asking, Monique, do you think that you should make $20 million just like Amy Schumer or Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock? Like, do you think she'd be making that?

And one thing she said that people don't pay attention to is, no, if I'm not making $20,000, like, it can't be $250,000. it's got to be more than that, right? Is it not two? Is it not three? Is it not four? When I've won an Academy Award, she didn't throw those numbers out there, but basically I think she might have said too.

But I won an Academy Award. I've been in hit movies. I've done in this. Why do I have to work for $500,000? How much is a fair amount of pay for a career on the level of Taraji P. Henson or Monique or anybody else? I'll tell you why we should be asking this question.

She talked about Proud Mary, right? She talked about the fact that she hadn't received the pay raise from Proud Mary. The business is going to look at Proud Mary and go, well, why would you get more money after that movie that was both critically and commercially a disappointment? Like, why would you get more after that? Like, why would the pay go up after that? Right? When the movie was both critically and commercially a disappointment.

Right. And that's the way to undercut her argument. She's almost certainly underpaid. There's no almost. She definitely is underpaid. The question is, how much should she be making? How much is she making? And how much should somebody with her career accolades

and her time in the game be making? And then we can talk about it because we have to look at it in an intellectual way because if we don't, then we're just going to keep having the same argument and not really able to get to what's fair. I think you're missing something too in that you're right,

but I think that there's something that goes missing. Opportunity. So you've heard black actors, actresses talk about they don't. We've talked about it on this very podcast. There aren't roles and opportunities that are for their white counterparts that their white counterparts have that they can get as well. It just doesn't exist. So if Taraji doesn't have the long resume coming in, it's probably because there aren't roles that are being created for her to have these roles. We talked about Angela Bassett in her career.

you know, Empire, you just mentioned, that was a black show. So she doesn't have the same opportunities to build her resume, to build off of a proud Mary. And I was specifically talking about her, but definitely she's somebody that's more prominent. There are other actresses, you know, you can talk about a Danielle Brooks that aren't necessarily getting those same opportunities. So how can they even be, how can you answer the question of what should they be paid when they're not even getting the opportunity? to be paid. That's true. That's true.

The fact that they're not more roles affects a lot of things. Number one, if there are not enough roles for black actresses, black people, but specifically black actresses because there are many more roles

for black men than there are for black actresses, then that's going to affect their pay inherently because less opportunity to be in movies means less opportunity to be in hit movies, means less opportunity to be in movies that win a lot of awards and get a lot of accolades, which also means that if you can't do those things,

you can't increase your worth in the city. And if you can't do that type of stuff, you're always going to be coming up against it when it's time to negotiate pay. Because in any negotiation for anybody anywhere, they're trying to pay you the least amount of money that they can to get you to work. If it's Brad Pitt and they want to pay, and you want 30 million, they're trying to figure out how pay you 25.

You know, if it's, if it's whomever, they're trying to figure out how to how to, how to pay you the least amount of money that you can. The question becomes, how do we look at the careers of some of the people that we feel like are being treated unfairly? And they hold people accountable for paying them what we think they deserve. And the way to do that, I think is more transparency in all it is. Now, people can't talk about contracts most of the time. They can't talk about specifics most of the time, but they can't talk about, we can have general conversations of worth. We can make people aware in all industries, not just in Hollywood, of what it means to work 10 years for one place. So work 10 years in one industry.

Like what you should be able to expect, what you should be able to negotiate, what you should be able to get. All those questions are questions we have to answer. they're conversations we have to have about all different types of stuff. And so for me, you know, I'm looking at it and from the standpoint of when I see her,

I feel very moved by what it is that she's saying. But at the same time, I would like to try to answer this question. And the counters to it are so obvious. They're going to look at you and they go, they're going to go, okay, how much is your shit doing? How much is this?

this doing? What do you mean to this? What do you mean to that? Like, is it your time in the game that denotes how much you should get paid? Or is your success plus your time in the game? She is an incredibly successful actress, like one of our ghosts. Like one of our goats. And to me, the question starts to become like from the business standpoint, like what's the work of it? Like, how do we talk about that? And then we can hold studios and producers and production companies and accountable for what it is that they're not doing for these people. That means so much does.

And maybe it takes people that are prominent or looked at in a different way to speak up, like an Oprah. I mean, obviously, she's behind color purple. That's a black movie. But just speaking up about black women, black actors, but specifically black women, because that's what we're talking about, having the opportunity to even take on these roles to where they can be paid more. Yeah, yeah.

Let's see. Do you feel like people treated Monique unfairly when she brought this issue up? I think maybe even, I think even maybe I wasn't as, I didn't give it the reference that it needed. I think she was bringing up something that was very real. I think we took a defensive posture on it

rather than, why are you smiling? I'm listening. Go ahead, keep going. All right. Because I'm just, all I'm thinking about is black women being disrespected. That's what I'm just thinking of. Her words were disregarded. Her words didn't have magnitude.

They didn't hold any weight. I think if she had looked different, they would have. I think people just dismissed what she said is like, oh, that's just money. She's just complaining when here we are quoting it as a resource towards Taraji's argument. This is clearly an issue that has been happening and is still happening. in Hollywood and it needs to be addressed and it needs to be called out. So one of the things is you talk about her being one of our greats to Raji. It takes somebody like her and other similarly similarly situated to call out.

And then the call out also is, hey, and I'm still struggling. I'm still not where I should be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully the Color Purple does crazy, crazy numbers. I know I will be out there supporting the movie. and we can make sure that our performers have what they need because she's talking about the fact that she's living in a very, she's working in a very expensive industry,

and it is an expensive industry. You get your money, it comes in, you pay your taxes, and then everybody else, you got the, it is. No, it is. Even as podcasters,

it's like we got managers and agents and attorneys. And then on top of it, they have to have, as she said, makeup, styling, hair, social media managers. The whole deal. Goes fast. Yeah, it's true.

It's true. More money and more problems is a real thing. I don't know if we want to go there. Like, oh, I think. Go ahead. Keep going. Move on. I don't know if we want to go there.

Move on. Rob Smith. Have you heard of them before? you know what I've seen him a lot I'd never put his name with that face Rob

had something happen to him he's a black gay Republican and he also an army banner he had a run in with some white supremacists he tweeted this last night in Phoenix I was confronting and surrounded by some white supremacists

that don't like gays or blacks in a Republican Party he shouted nigger and the F word at me to make their point. However, I served in Iraq. I never backed down. There's audio up. Donnie dropped the audio in now. He appeared on the Abby Phillips show.

Shout out to Abby. And talked about it and tried to explain his thoughts on the Republican Party and Donald Trump. The state of the Republican Party in Donald Trump. Here it is. I don't focus on what people say. I focus on what. they do. And when it comes to Trump, when it comes to the mainstream Republican Party right now, I have seen Donald Trump be the first Republican to ever, excuse me, the first president

to ever in her office supporting marriage equality, either Democrat or Republican. I saw him partner with the RNC in the log having Republicans to spend over $1 million in a get-out-the-vote effort specifically targeting gays and lesbians in this country, okay? And spend over $1 million to do that, okay? So I look at what people do. And so now when you, You want to talk about having somebody denounce this. I've seen Donald Trump denounce white supremacy over and over and over again for the past eight years. I have not seen Ronda Santis denounce this. I have not seen Vivek Ramoswami denounced this.

I have not seen Nikki Haley denounce this. I have not seen Chris Christie denounce this. So if we're going to talk about the future of this party and these white supremacists absolutely do exist in this party, we all saw me face them from face to face. I'm looking at soulless, dead-eyed white supremacists that, by the way, I felt that these people could have bashed my brains in had they gotten a chance. I deal with these people in real life. It's hard to even have a conversation about Rob because he's clearly delusional.

If Trump had walked into that party, he would have said, ah, they're very fine people on both sides, period. So I don't understand this whole, the whole notion of he's denounced white supremacy. What are you talking? What are you watching? What are you listening to? I can't even entertain this guy. please go ahead with Rob.

Real quick for Rob, what you experienced was fucked up. You shouldn't have had to experience. Okay. But I'll let you know that that part of the tent of the Republican Party is empowered.

Now, white supremacy exists in every different sphere of political thought. On the left and on the right. We keep telling you this. White supremacy is not the shark, it's the ocean. it's the life giver of this country. There is something specific about the Republican Party, is that the white supremacist there,

and that party must be caught. They must be given a voice. They must be given an opinion. They must be counted. It's not a shame there. It is something to deal with. A group of people that you know you can't turn your back on. The idea that Donald Trump has,

denounced white supremacy is just laughable, Rob. They asked Donald Trump what he thought about David Duke endorsing him and he had to like he didn't know who David Duke was. We all know who David Duke is, right? We know that he knows because he had acknowledged David Duke in the past. You know, Donald Trump had many times in the moment to scale back or temper down the growing white nationalist movement that was emerged during his presidency

and he punted every time. And sometimes when he didn't punt, he got with him. So Rob, you chose this. That's why I don't feel sorry from him walking in that bar. Sorry. I don't want that to happen to nobody.

I don't want it to happen to anybody, but these are also the people that you platform. You work with turning point. You're platforming a Trump. Trump is these people's gods. So I just don't, it's hard for me to feel for him at all when these are the people that you stand beside and champion. All right. Speaking of Trump, Colorado kicked them off the ballot.

It's craziness, crazy times in Colorado kicked Trump off of the ballot that's done and over with. Caroline Mala Corbin is going to be on to join us to talk about whether or not this will, constitutional, whether or not this was Democratic, and why they did this. Rachel, what were you going to say? Well, I was just going to say, before we get into the interview, I know that for a while we've talked about the Democrats need to get creative, like the Republicans, and they need to find ways to combat what's happening with Trump and MAGA folks and all of that.

Were you excited when you saw this? And I say that, I say this, but then it's also conservative. who are the ones championing this. They want it's because if it was Democrats who really were behind this, then they would have waited until Trump was, won the primary, and it was Trump versus Biden.

So they're actually, it's conservative behind this. So I'm actually not proving my point. But I'm just wondering if you got excited because you thought, oh, people are against Trump are getting creative finally. I was intrigued.

Okay. I think that's the best way to say. All right. All right. I was intrigued. Let's hear what Caroline Monica has to say about. it. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis,

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So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. You guys, she's back. She's back. She's back. Whenever there are questions of constitutional law, we shine the Corbyn signal in the sky.

Our most reoccurring guests, Caroline Mala Corbyn is a professor of law, University of Miami School of Law. She teaches U.S. constitutional law, First Amendment, religion clauses, free speech clauses, and feminism in the First Amendment. Oh, my God.

Wow. Controversial. Feminism in the First Amendment. And we're here to talk about what happened to Colorado. Now, there are a lot of people out here celebrating because they think that Donald Trump and his campaign are about to be wiped off the face of the planet by judicial decisions all over the country.

And they think that because Colorado knocked Trump off the ballot by ruling he was an insurrectionist, this interpretation of a constitutional amendment that doesn't let an insurrectionist run. Caroline, help us figure out what's going on here. Okay. So this all starts with the 14th Amendment, which is an amendment that has all kinds of goodies.

That's where you have the due process clause, the equal protection clause. There's also something known as the insurrectionist clause, of the disqualification clause. And as you said, it basically said, if you were an officer and you swore an oath to uphold constitution of the United States, and then you either engaged in an insurrection, or you gave aid to those who did, you are disqualified from any office, military, civil, state, federal, you cannot hold office.

Well, this isn't the first time that this has been tried in different courts. It's just the first time that it's been successful. So what was done differently here? Or maybe it was who was hearing it, the Colorado Supreme Court. What was done that made this succeed in Colorado? out of. So again, it was originally, I think you're referring the recent cases, not the cases right after the Civil War. Right. No, not about the. It's originally implemented so that the trestress of Confederates could not get back into power. But the more recent was, I think there are actually, there's a couple of

dozen of these cases. And many of them have been dismissed on various procedural grounds. So I think this is really one of the first that did not say, I'm sorry, but for various reasons, not having to do with the actual merits of the case, we're going to look to see if this language applies to Donald Trump or not. And so I think the difference with this court is they actually looked at the merits of the claim that Donald Trump was guilty of engaging in an insurrection.

Criticisms of this decision are going to say that it subverts democracy and that the primary voters, because this is for the primary, as I understand, that the primary voters in Colorado aren't going to get the opportunity to

vote for the far and away prohibited favor for for the Republican nomination and that the courts have overreached with this decision. What do you say to that, Chris? So you're talking to a constitutional law professor.

And really, and the reason why I point this out is because the highest law of the land is the Constitution. And the Constitution lists certain qualifications for the Office of Precedent. You have to be 35. You have to be a natural born citizen. you have to have resided in the country 14 years,

and according to the Constitution, you cannot have participate, you cannot have engaged in insurrection. So according to the terms of our founding document, you are ineligible to be president in this country unless you qualify. And so it's the same argument as is it undemocratic to not allow a 20-year-old. to run for a president, is it undemocratic not to allow someone who wasn't born in the United

States not to run for a president. It's part of the qualifications laid out in the Constitution that says, you're not qualified. Do you think the Supreme Court will take this case? And if they don't or hear this, and if they don't, what does that mean? I don't think the Supreme Court wants to take the case. I don't either. I mean, talk about putting your foot in it all over again and it still has the legacy

of Bush v. Gore hanging over it. But I think it, I don't know. I don't like to predict. I think it has to. I don't know. I think if it does take the case

and it should be I should note that the court's decision said, listen, we're not putting this into effect right away. We're going to wait until January 4th before it goes into effect. So it built into the decision time for the Supreme Court to weigh in. And so I think if it were to weigh in, it would probably do what a lot of the other courts below have done and decide not based on the merits, but on some other procedural concerns. So, for example, one argument, this is one of the dissents said, is even though the 14th Amendment makes quite clear that people who engage in insurrection are ineligible for any kind of office,

it's not for courts to decide whether someone is eligible or not. This is something that Congress is supposed to be in charge of because the amendment gives Congress the power to enforce it. And so some people are interpreting that as only Congress has the authority to enforce that. Now, that's not the interpretation of the Colorado Supreme Court said. They said it's self-enforcing. It's enforcing right away. You don't need Congress to do that. Like all the other clauses of the 14th Amendment are like that. And so there's no reason to think this one's different, but that's a possible approach that the court could take. So they could find some kind of, some kind of decision that does not require them to weigh in on whether or not

there was an insurrection or whether Trump engaged in it or helped those in. But if they don't hear it, then if they say, we're not, we're not going to take this case, then what happens? Like, will we see this happen throughout the country? Well, it depends. So the only thing that immediately happens is that Trump's name is taken off the ballot in Colorado. And let's be honest, it's not like he was going to win in Colorado anyway. Right. Right.

So I don't think it actually has any concrete effect on the election. Now, again, there are other lawsuits in other states, and it may make other. courts feel more comfortable in coming to the same conclusion because they won't be the first anymore. It's already been done. And it was done quite thoroughly and persuasively. The argument is quite good. And so it's possible that other courts will follow suit. It's also possible that other courts won't. Or maybe only courts in states where he wasn't going to win anyway. So I think that's That's the landscape. I'm really interested in the guts of this.

And when I say the guts of this, I mean, insurrection is such a triggering word to the far right that we have been talking about January 6th, at nauseam for the last couple of years. And the term insurrection has been one in it of itself that has been intellectually debated, whether or not this was an insurrection, whether or not it was a riot. It seems to be a politically tinge term when it's used like that sort of volleyball.

How did the Colorado Supreme Court, A, define it as an insurrection and then B, say that Trump participated in an insurrection. It seems to be a political statement as much as it is, one of law. Okay. So you identify two separate courts. questions. One, was there an insurrection? And two, did Trump engage in it? I think the first question is, well, I don't think it's as hard. I don't think it's that hard. I think it's understood to be, well, if you, I have the actual language of the court here, if you like. So. Sure, of course. Yeah. Okay. So it's a concerted and public use of force or threat. by a group of people to prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish

the peaceful transfer of power in this country. So I should be clear, the court did not say, I'm going to define insurrection for all intents and purposes. What it said is, at the very least, you have an insurrection if you have a concerted use of force to try and prevent the peaceful transfer of power in the democracy. And so I think that's not that controversial, to be honest. Right? If you're, if you're violence or the threat of violence to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, which is really at the heart of a democracy, I think that's fair to count that as an

insurrection. And then his participation. So his participation, yes. And here, there was a lot of, of the evidence was John Ford from the January 6th report from Congress. And it's quite detailed. And again, the lower court's decision was over 100 pages. And the Supreme Court of Colorado's decision was over 200 pages. They were very thorough about his participation, about the details of all of this. And they thought he was, he encouraged it. He won, I mean, even before the actual violence on January 6th, he was laying the groundwork for it by denying the fact that he lost, right?

I mean, the very fact that he stated again and again with absolutely no evidence. And in fact, he sued and lost immediately everywhere that there was any election fraud. And so he first, like the backdrop is this concerted effort to lie and say that he did not lose. And then on the day when he knew he had a volatile, devoted crowds filled with right-wing extremists, telling them that they had to go to the Capitol and fight for their rights and do something about it. And the fact that he, you know, even as he heard news that there was violence, he did nothing except complain that Pence was not going to give him a second term. And so I'm doing a poor job of summarizing the factual elements. I'm really more on solid ground with the constitutional law. But there is pages and pages of details about how he really incited people to become violent and prevent the certification of the election.

That's really the heart. I'm sorry. A more concise summary is he incited the crowd to prevent the certification of the election and allow the next person to take the reins of power. because he did not want to let go. I don't know if Trump's lawyers have already appealed to the court yet in regards to what's happening in Colorado. But what are or how strong are Trump's legal arguments? And I think I read somewhere that Trump's lawyers are saying that this is a political, this should be a political question for Congress and not determined by the higher court.

Is that true? And how strong are his legal arguments? There are a lot of different arguments. And so, I mean, one of them, the lower court of Colorado, for example, found that Trump definitely did engage in an insurrection, but he didn't count as an officer of the United States for purposes of the 14th Amendment. This is not a particularly persuasive reading of the language, but there are people. making that argument and it was persuasive enough so that the Colorado, the lower Colorado court agreed with it. So that's like one reading of it. There's also, again, this idea that the, even assuming he meets the criteria laid out by the insurrection clause, it's not the

Colorado courts that have the power to enforce it. The problem with giving any kind of analysis about the strengths of the merits is these are all novel questions. This is new. It's kind of like catnip for con law professors because there's so many issues and so many interesting things to think about.

But at the same time, it makes it hard to really give you an assessment of the merits of the claims because they're new. And we don't know. So again, one of these questions is, I find it persuasive, but I'm not sitting on the Supreme Court in the United States. You're so excited by constitutional law.

This is going to be on your final exam. This is going to be a party. She can't help herself. She's so excited by law. I was really, I'm teaching constitutional law one this next semester, which is about the balance of power among the three branches and federalism and judicial review. And I usually start with Marbury v. Madison, which is this old case that makes it clear

that the courts have the power to review the acts of the other branches to make sure they're acting constitutionally. And I'm like, maybe I should just start the course with this decision because it's so interesting and so engaging that I don't know. But it's really quite interesting and raises all kinds of questions about political questions, about, yes, lots of, lots of issues here. I love it.

Theory is constitutional interpretation. Oh, wow. Yeah, because so one of these arguments about whether the clause, because this is like a major issue, you would think it, because the language, I'm like, the language says, right? No person should hold office who has previously taken an oath as an officer of the United States. Right? And you're like, officer of the United States

obviously includes the president. Like, what is the president except an officer of the United States? That's a very straightforward understanding of the clause. Yeah. But there's an argument about whether it is included or not, and it may depend on your theory of constitutional interpretation. Do you read the language in its ordinary everyday use as it was understood? Or is officer of the United States more a term of art?

and we have to like dig a little deeper to understand what it means. Now, as it happens, right, this Supreme Court, this U.S. Supreme Court is a real fan of the original public meaning. Like as originalists, they're just like, we just look at what it means for the ordinary, everyday person. So it would be a little surprising if they said the officer of the United States didn't include the president. But there's so many arguments that you can make. People say, well, but they didn't specifically look the president of the United States. And they specifically listed some. You can make a negative inference.

Or at one time the draft included that it was the president. And then they took it out. So therefore, we should assume they didn't mean to include a president. Or, you know, it's one thing if you give states the power to decide state officials. But this can have ramifications outside of state. I mean, there's so many arguments you can make, even about something as simple as whether an officer of the United States includes the president or not. Professor Corby, thank you.

Okay. We are. Sorry, I know a little long about that. No, we love it. That was just one question. And there are like 20 questions that I can do the same thing for. There are a lot of legal issues here. The excitement is palpable.

You loved it. I can tell that when this came, you were like, oh, my God, what a. And I thank you for giving me the excuse. to spend half day reading about it instead of editing the paper I should be. I think that this is going to be a very contentious election season with a lot of legal challenges and the such. So we're just getting it revved up and we're going to look forward to having you back on Professor Corbyn. Thank you for joining us on higher learning today. Always a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.

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It's time to talk about pod issues with the pod mother. That should be me. Mandy. So look, if you guys know if you guys know about horrible decisions, see the thing is, that's Mandy on the mic both times.

She really is one of the hardest working podcasters and content producers in the entire game right now. And I'll tell you something else about horrible decisions. The best podcast live show that exists. Thank you.

We know. It's not even close. I mean, I wasn't going to chew my own horn, but yes, it's called a production and you know, the potters just don't know how to do it. They, you know, they're, they'll get there one day though.

Who besides you guys has the best podcast live show, would you say? Ooh. You know what's crazy is I've been to so many. And they're not even close. So I don't know. I honestly can't tell you anyone. I would say, you know, yep, sorry. I'm drawing a blank here.

Donnie clip that. Time to be messy. Donnie clip that time to be messy. Stop it. I'm going to blank here. I mean, I'm not going to lie. It was the pause, Mandy. All of us can make money.

All of us are doing a great job. And I love that everyone has their own audience and is being supported. You know, there's rappers that are canceling shows out here. Yet we're out here really flourishing in the market. So shout out to all the podcasts is selling out their live shows. And, you know, making the money, making the coin. No, keep that original energy that you had from the beginning. That's what I'm.

That's drawing me to the show. I got to go see one of these live shows. Don't bring that other stuff in here. Keep that. Okay. So, Mandy could be joining us to talk about, you know, any number of topics that she is well-versed on. If you listen to see what thing is or horrible decisions, they cover the whole gamut of relationships,

pop culture, sexual Congress, all of that stuff. But this one is very specific. I want to have Mandy on for it. And it has to do with something that happened. over in the jumper verse. Yes. Yeah. So I give you guys a quick word.

Which I'm not a fan. Wait a second. Rachel, you're shaking your head. I know that I just threw a little bit of shade. I would love to know for those people who may not be watching on video, you vehemently rolled your eyes. You sat back.

You sighed. I don't know if that was captured in the microphone. I would love to know your views on the No Jumper Network in Universal over there first. Yeah. No, absolutely. What you saw was complete discontalienable. And I'm not going to hide it. We've had Adam on this podcast.

We've talked about No Jumper and the fallout and the implosion against my wheel. I will say that that is the same thing. Even though I am very excited to talk to you, Mandy, I would say that anytime we have to talk about No Jumper, I'm just not a fan. Although I will say, I will admit that when the whole implosion happened, I was drawn in.

I love mess. I like reality TV. This was reality TV happening in front of me. So I did, you know, have a moment of weakness, but I'm back now. I'm just not into it. I'm just not into it. Because I think Adam is a piece of shit. And there's really no other way to say it.

Not from any bias standpoint. I've been on No Jumper and Adam and Lena have both been together during the pandemic because we could do virtual things on horrible decisions. But yeah, everyone's views on him are very interesting. So I'm going to let, you know, Van lead the way. Because just so you know, I think I just got brought here so that Ben could tear my ass. That's not true. No, no, no, no.

That's not true. That's what you like to do is tear people's asses. You got to get to that podcast. Gotta get to that live show. Okay, first of all, like, everybody knows I go on no jumper. I talk to Adam. Adam is who he is. Yes.

But I think piece of shit is strong. Okay. Very. I think I can go down the list. I can go down a list. of things. I'm fully prepared. Okay, okay.

You're fully prepared. It's your, it's your, this is what happened. This is a deal. I got, we got to get into the thing, Rachel. Okay, you ready? Get into the thing. So, if you watch and listen to No Jumper, and this is a bigger question

that even Adam here. You know that there's a guy on there named Crip Mac. Now, we're going to put in a little sound right now, Donnie, I'm going to give you a sound later, of Adam on the Adam and Wax show, talking about the fact that Crip Mac a huge, huge no-drumper draw

brings in all kinds of views for no-trumper has had some recent legal trouble. He's been arrested on a gun charge. He is currently in police custody or in the custody of the state or the government, actually, I think it's a federal charge now. And Adam's Crip-Max manager had asked Adam to come show up

at Crip-Mack's bail hearing to vouch for him. They were telling me on Monday that they wanted me to come and try to talk to the judge on Wednesday, but I already had my whole weekbooked to interviews and shit. And that's what they said they're not going to let him out

while he's waiting. I know, but what am I going to do? I got people flying him to do interviews. I got to cancel my whole. But you could pause the interview a little bit. Yeah, you could have went. Like the interview could wait a little bit. You could have been like 12 or 2.

I got my whole week booked every week. Look at this. Wednesday. I got seven things I got to do throughout the day. When I heard that, I was like, damn, bruh. That's some real shit. Like, hold on.

Like that. So somebody's freedom is on the line. You can't go show up for the midcourt. That's crazy. I think everybody, the entire internet that watches the whistleblower, reacted the same way. Like, fuck. Even whack, who doesn't fuck with Crip Mac,

reacted the same way. Okay. Mandy, you see it differently. I have such an unpopular take on this because where you said everyone had the same response, I was like, how does everyone? have this same response. Few things, right?

First of, you said exactly where my mind went. Adam is the boss. Crip Mac is an employee. Let's bring this to corporate, which I love to do. I used to work in corporate, right? If at any point I got into any sort of legal trouble, it would be ludicrous to think that my senior manager, my boss, the CEO, my partner, anyone of upper management would come in support of me to say,

she is such a great person. Let's also go back. We ain't seen nobody. We all got also really upset at all of the character letters that were sent into Tori. So what are we talking about here? Like, to me, the hypocrisy of what the internet expects also from a network that, if I'm not mistaken. Let's talk about what we're talking about street stuff. Now listen y'all, this is the legend. I don't want you all coming from me. But Adam had

a neo-Nazi on the platform and fired every motherfucking body at one point, right? They quit. They left. They would say that they left. And then guess what? They all came back. Like Adam, who came back? A lot of... None of those guys came back.

If you talk about the back-old and the community guys... Sharp is still there. It's Sharp flacko and some of them guys didn't leave, but none of the guys that left came back. So when we're talking street coat then, when we're sitting here and expecting Adam to uphold some level of street loyalty to men that are in the street,

I don't understand why for everything else that we've seen of Afro. Not only the neo-Nazi, he's also a porn star. And I'm going to say stark because he's doing great over. there. He's doing amazing over there. These ideas that we want this person to be this upstanding citizen as if he hasn't shown us exactly who he is,

is ludicrous. Let's also be very clear. Krip Mack also just went on and said how he was hurt that he wasn't even invited to Adam's birthday. So are they really friends? You guys think these podcasters because they sit on a mic every week are friends. This is a business, people. If your coworkers and your boss wouldn't show up if you didn't.

Here's what I used to tell me. If you stay out of trouble, you won't be in trouble. I ain't going to hold you. I tweeted it. Oh, yeah, I sounded awful now. I tweeted it. Weezy, Bridget, love everything we've done. If you get into fucking legal trouble, I ain't showing up.

Bitch, I got people to interview. I got to keep the business going. You know what? I have nothing. I have nothing. Because you know what? You should have made better decisions than life. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Mandy. A lot, a lot to talk about. A lot to talk about. Motherfucker. Van, if you don't show up for me as a character witness, because I could be wrongfully.

And I'm showing up for Van. I don't care if they have video evidence, text messages. I am showing up. I'm putting on my glasses. I'm going to be Rachel from First Baptist Academy, taking that stand as your character wins. I'm showing up for you. I'm showing up for you.

Hold on, Rachel, not you being a Nicki Minaj. Now, if I know you did some shit that ain't right, I don't care if you have one of that. Wait, wait, wait. It does depend on what you did. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no.

It depends on what you're being accused of. No, no, Rachel just said, I don't care if there's text messages. Okay, wait, wait, me, stop. No, no, it can be whatever her husband's name is. I ain't going down for that. It depends on what you're accused of. Okay. Thank you for.

give me back, Mandy. I went too far. I went too far. You went a little far there. Can I just say that I, too, I was not shocked. I agree with you and that I, too, was not shocked. And I don't think this is an unpopular opinion, but I never would have expected Adam to go down because Adam has shown one, that he is not a friend. And to your point, I will say, it's not just because they podcast. He has said, we are friends. He's verbalized the fact that he and Crip Mack are actually, is that. the same? Yeah, our friends. But he has shown time and time again that he is not a friend and that he doesn't really

care about black people. Rachel, girl. Ma'am. We on the mic. You're my home girl. When you on a mic, you call everybody friends. This is my friend. Welcome my friend who's on the podcast today.

I don't. I'm just saying there's people you can have a couple conversations with when you're on a microphone and just when talking about people. One of my friends, we use the word friends. really loosely. And again, knowing that Kripak just felt away that he wasn't even invited to his birthday party,

I think we've been seeing that go viral lately, right? Girls saying they're inviting all their friends and only two people show up, where are my real friends? We use that pretty so loosely and I think that's the thing. You are an employee. Krip Kempak is an employee

of the No Jumper universe and I think that that's where the line is blurred. But here's the thing. I think the line is blurred. And I think Adam blurs it. For sure. So the line is blurred. I'll tell you why.

There's a thing that happens on No Jumper that where the streets and the podcast thing get blended. Merky. Murky, right? Because everybody talks their shit on there. And because people talk their shit on there, there might be things that are inside of the office or on the content streets that spill out to the actual streets. and then what happens is the street niggas around you, you kind of ask them or need them to show up for you. Like, for example, Adam is in an interview.

He's asking questions. He's doing this thing. This guy gets up. He's about to get on Adam ass. Crip Mac goes. If you touch him or you try to do something, I'm a beat on you. I'm a do this. Like Crip Mac is defending Adam.

We've seen times in the past where it's when AD was there, right? And something would go down because of different stuff. Those guys step in and they show. show up for Adam. And so I think what's really happening over there, and I think this is very important for everybody to take stock of, is there's a cultural glitch. There's a different way in which guys that Adam is around, it's a different way that they love. It's a different way that they interact. I experienced this at TMZ. I was at TMZ and I was working there for eight, nine years, 10 years and I'm meeting people's family and I'm hanging out with them and I know they're kids

and I run into somebody at Santa Monica and talk for us and so then like when the shit is over over there I'm like yo what the fuck like my dad dies and nobody reaches out my my my nigga I like we on the same league basketball team I've known you for a long long time so I think if there's a lesson to be taken away from this is that there is actually a different expectation of cultural loyalty that sometimes you don't get at the place that you work because they don't understand how you view it. The only thing that Krip Mac knows, though, I think this is important,

is that Adam said this is my friend. So with friend, what we're talking about right now, and everybody at No Jumper, everybody needs to hear this, the only thing Krip Mack knows is that Adam has said, this is my friend. And so when he says this is my friend, what we expect is if you're my friend and my freedom is on the line

is that you take, Adam said he had too many interviews scheduled and he couldn't do all the interviews. If you're my friend and my freedom is on the line that you take the time up to come and show up for my shafer. Listen, I understand, that was one of my points that he said that. But the latter is that if you,

I don't even know Adam well, but I know enough to know that if history has predictive value, he has constantly shown that he does not show up for his so-called friend. He showed up for himself. For himself, he is totally, and everything that he does, whether it's creating a podcast that is on, the foundation of it is black culture. You're surrounding yourself with other people on the mic that are black. Yet you bring on Nick Fuentes, who totally talks bad about black people in such a disparaging and hateful way.

And you not, at one point, defend black people in general. That's your audience. Those are your alleged friends. this is why I call him a piece of shit. And this isn't even talking about what he did with Housephone and ended up imploding the whole thing where everybody left. I hate that even know all of this.

Rachel Bittles. Then he found out to be on the Reddit threads. Keeping up, girl. That he ended up losing his so-called friends because of how he treated another friend. time and time again, Adam has shown that he is nobody's friend. He cares except his own and most of the time his wife. Oh, shit.

Okay. I'll wait a most of the time, yeah. Most of the time. Look, I'll say this. If it was Alex, shout out to Alex. If it was Andrew, if it was Charlemagne, if it was Mandy, if it was Weezy, if it was Rory, if it was mall, if it was any of these people that I have,

I mean, not necessarily you and Weezy, but any of these people who are homies that I have mostly professional relationships with. Like these are all people that I know and I fuck with, but I have mostly professional relationships with. If I could do anything, like anything, if I could do anything

to ensure their freedom of Mandy. Like, like if I can show up. It depends what you did, but for the most part, I'm going to drop a prayer emoji when it hit the shade room, thoughts and prayers. And when you get your sentence in, I'm a, I'll add to the commissaire.

If you become free, I'm going to be like, bet you won't do that shit again. And like, but so you may tell me right now, I ask you this. Yes. Me and you've been knowing each other five, six years. Maybe longer.

Maybe longer. Probably longer. Probably like actually longer. If I got knocked on a gun charge, let's name the charge. This is what a gun charge. Which, wait, to also be fair, the gun charge is also that he has previous charges,

which is why, like, this is like strike three for that motherfucker. I don't know if y'all cuss out here, but it's like, we cuss. You had a few chances now. If I get knocked on a gun charge, Mandy, if I get knocked on the gun charge, Van, it's in New York.

I'm coming up to court. I'm like, yo, Mandy, I need you to show up for me, man, tell everybody what a good person I am with the black. She's drinking water. With the black Negro Americans, I need somebody, I need you to show up for me. Are you showing up to court to say Van is an upstanding individual?

Let's say you got a full day of interviews booked. Let's say you got interviews booked. Let's say Rihanna is coming on horrible decisions. I didn't even go hold you. I've gotten into an argument because of who we had to cancel because of health reasons with a coach. So I'm going to tell you now, baby, I'm sending a letter. They want it on PDF or word doc.

How they want that thing. Mandy, I'll be honest with you. This is your white side. This is your white side. No, it's not. This is your white side. I got a rise to the top of last year. Called Weezy from jail and said,

girl, I ain't going to make to the recording today. If you got to record a solo, go ahead. But I'm locked up. Don't know when I'm going to get out. I didn't tell her, girl, come up here and save me. When I went to court, I went on my own. Let's also be very clear, too. Just got stopped at the border coming back.

from Toronto had to call Bridget. Say, girl, I'm, I missed my flight, I'm gonna make it a little late. We're gonna push scheduling back. I'd have made some decisions in my life where I don't expect anybody to sit here and bail me out to anything.

Like, and that's where I'm sorry and this is awful. I try to live my life as straight line as possible. I stop it. Stop, sign. I'd slow down at yellow lights. If you are out here, making poor decisions that will get you into the court of law or locked up or in jail,

I'll see you when you get out. But the business don't stop and my bills is not going to stop being paid. So I got to keep working. At least you know where you stand with you. Oh, no, I appreciate that. By the way, this is documented history. Don't commit a crime around me because if you get me caught up, I'm snitching. Oh, see, that's different.

I'm sitting. You know I'm with that. You know I'm with that. I'm here to snitch. Yeah. I don't run by street code. I don't run by street code either, but that's where I think the same way people are dating

and not really sure where they stand with their partners. It can be a situation ship. The holidays are around. You're going to see if that's your man when Christmas come around, right? When New Year's come around. I think that there needs to be a check-in to really see where you stand in friendships. And I think that, again,

they both had a different definition of what their friendship entailed and what loyalty looked like for both of them. Oh, yeah, I think that's a good place to leave it. I'll say this. I just think everybody, this is where cultural translation matters. Because where I'm from, where I guess Rachel's from,

definitely not where you from, Mandy. Don't do that. You know I'm from Florida, but what I'm from, it's been dudes at the gym, at my boxing gym. Like literally at my boxing gym. That I've been like,

man, look, I'm going to be honest with you, bro. people respect you like I'm in some legal trouble like can you come down here and blah I'll go if it's between you and going to jail like I'll go like hey brad I need I need some help man like can you can you call and even talk to the person can you do whatever I do it it's like I box with you all the time I know you you're my friend I don't know someone because you box with them I know that I don't want you to go to jail how about that jail I know I know you're I know I don't want you to go to jail. Now, obviously, if it's a... I ain't going to hold you, Ben. I'm back to Rachel. Ben, your first question needs to be, now, what did you do?

I did ask what you do? Yeah, what did you do? To get into this predicament, son? Yeah, I get it. But at the same time, I think even if it's a dope beef or if it's a gum beef, man, you know, brothers come from specific places and we need the legal system to be as lenient and cognizant of that as possible. And I do think, last thing I'll say,

though. And now I'll give you the last word, Mandy. So you can tell everybody out there how you're going to fuck over him in the future. I'll say this. I think it is a kind of a situation where there's a muddling and this happened before it over at No Jumper of the street black culture ethos of friendship and just the white man's view of how things should work. And that's fair to say. They chose to work for the white man. Let's be very clear. They chose to work for that man.

Oh, everybody made that choice. They made the choice to work for the white man. And I think that if I could say one thing in what we've seen in this pod sphere, the pod war, the pod beef, being in podcasting is the very true fact that there is no way possible to maintain a healthy, loyal friendship in business. Let's be very clear. So where you sat here and thought people was your friend, when it came to business, business came first. And at the very end of the day, both will not exist. You will either keep business, you will keep your friendship,

or both will end. That is it. Our days are number, Van. Our days are number, period. We were just on the phone last night. This is like my sister. It's okay. Y'all will have your little bumps in the road soon.

Oh, we've had a bunch. We'll have some bucks. That's the friendship in business, and I've said this on no jumper. I've had this conversation with both Weezy, with leaving the JBN with just everything, you're not going to keep both at the end. And I think that that's what we're seeing happening here.

Legal troubles are not when you are on a podcast. Not even podcast. You could have a startup. You could have a tech business. You could have a cleaning, truck, a moving truck. If you're doing it with friends, when money becomes involved, when business becomes involved, all of that gets muddied and it's not going to remain healthy. It's your story. Mandy, thank you for joining us. Look, I know what you guys said that that was

the last tour. It's a lie. Y'all going to go back out. So real quick, you weren't at our very last live show, you know, where we shut the shit down. But we did actually announce that our very last live show sold out town hall in New York City that shout out to Charlemagne who has rocked with us forever. We will be touring again in 2025, but we will be touring our book, not the podcast because we have a publishing deal with Black Privilege Publishing under Charlemans and Franks. Wow.

So we will be touring. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. So we're not touring at all this year in preparation and also writing of the book to tour the book in 2025. Fantastic. What's the name of the book?

a name yet? I can't, I can't give you that. You're not going to get that exclusive. We ain't said it yet on the airwaves. But there is a name of it. I'll send you the proposal. All right. Rachel, thank you so much for having me as well. So nice to me, man. By the way, and this is not an ad. But let me tell y'all, higher learning can be viewed on Delta Airlines under the series tab.

So if you are flying a long flight on Delta, make sure you guys check out higher learning. it is available on your flight, okay? Thank you for that. Thank you. I was so proud to see that. Thank you guys for having me. All right, guys. Look, friends, no friends,

work friends. Y'all getting trouble, I'll show up for you, you know? You call it Adam a piece of shit. You want to take that back? You want to... I thought I proved my point. And maybe helped. Take big caps off with the not stop learning.

I am Van Lathen Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.