Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Uncomfortably Conversing With Emmanuel Acho

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Van and Rachel react to Ron DeSantis and Florida claiming AP African American Studies “lacks educational value” (10:02), before welcoming the host of ‘Uncomfortable Conversations With a Black Man,’ Emmanuel Acho, to discuss uncomfortable conversations (27:45). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Emmanuel Acho Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Harle is on. It is I, Van Lathan, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel, where are you right now? I am in New York City. She was on the Ville.

I was on the View. She hosted the View. God damn. Who was on there with you? I have to say, I don't have a lot of pinch me moment. I do and I don't, but like, 2023 is giving me them. You know, we talked about our image award. I've done the view, but only virtual.

So to walk out with the ladies, waving to the live audience, it was a big deal. So I was on with Joy, Sarah Hane, Joy Behar, Sarah Haynes, Anna Navarro, and Alyssa Farah Griffin. So. Whoopi and Zaharan. Sunny, we're out. Why don't they give you the job to be on the view? Well, there's not really a space for me because

I'm a liberal and are you? They're five seats. Shut up. There are five seats and four of them are already taken by liberals and then you have Alyssa as a conservative. So there's not a space for me to be there. Also, I live in L.A.

Also, I live in L.A. Let's be clear. If you, if they give you a job, we got to do the podcast, virtual, all the time if they give you a job to be on the view. You got to move to New York, then. That's what we're doing. Why would I move to New York because you got a job at the view? For the podcast. There's work out here for you.

See, if the rolls were reversed, how toxic would that sound, Donnie, jump on? I think it would, I don't know. It's a weird analogy because why would Van move to New York? But I was trying to think of what he could be on that's in New York, like the view. and if the breakfast club offered you to be like the third member, would you leave? I wouldn't take that job. Interesting.

If, no, me and him then talked about this. I had my life of waking up at 4.45 in the morning. Like, I woke, I literally was up at 4.45 in the morning for 10 years in a row. Why would you see up that early for TMZ? In the office at 6 a.m. That was by choice. No. At TMZ, you have to be in the office at 6 a.m. Oh, wow.

In the office by 6 a.m. You have to be not, not, hey, we get to work at A. You're in the office at 6. I don't blame you. You do the television show at like 715 or 645, 630, whatever, all over it takes Harvey. Like literally, you get in there, fuck around for a little while, and then after that, boom, you go over there,

you do the television social. You're on TV normally by around. 635, 645 at the latest 7-715. The latest. That's tough. That's tough. I don't blame you because when people talk about, oh, you know, would you do a morning show?

It's like, I have no desire to be up that early in the morning. Like the view comes out at 11 Easter time. That is perfect. Here's a deal. I did it when I had to. And it was a part of my work ethic and getting up every single morning and doing out when I had to, I'm not looking to do that again.

That's why everybody's talking about, oh, I want to be Thursday on the breakfast club. Oh, I want to be Thursday on the breakfast club. Your whole life changes. Your whole life changes. Like your whole life changes. But there are the jobs for you in New York. Maybe.

But I won't take them. I got something to show you. So look, you know what this? So look at this. What does this look like to you? Well, it looks like an I-Mass. So this is what it is. Do you know what this eye mask came with?

I have no idea. They sent this with the pillow thing that I bought on the airplane. We're still there with the inflatable pillow. With the inflatable pillow thing, this was part of it. I was, I was looking at my thing. I've tried to, let me put it on real quick. Well, because most eye masks are just flat. has indentions and it has like an area for the no.

I don't, you look like the fly. Donnie, hold on. I told you. Look at this. But it's not, it doesn't black it out well enough. I can still see through it. Can you? Yeah, like I can see there's light creeping in.

I need, when I have blackout stuff, I need, I need to be all the way blacked out so I can sleep. Andrew Huberman talks about it. I don't. I don't like that. You don't wake up in a panic because I've done the eye mask before and I wake up panicked. I don't like that. Why are you in your robe? What is this?

First of all, don't I look like a housewife or something like that? This is a very, I have like a nice setup. I turn on the lights a certain way. The bed is made. I have been going nonstop all day to day. I landed at almost one in the morning, didn't get to my hotel until two, had to wake up this morning, meetings, prep for the show, do the show. I had two interviews for extra.

Then I had to get across, get across town, back to my hotel to do, to get ready for this podcast. So it has been a day and all I want to do is be comfortable. So I'm going to do these interviews in a robe and be unprofessional. I got a prep for tomorrow's show. Yeah. We got Emmanuel Acho on the show today. Yeah.

Donnie jump on. Are you excited? Donnie jump on. Yeah. I've been very critical of Emmanuel Acho over the years. Yeah, you have. Yeah. Donnie, have you been critical of him?

Not on, Mike. I want to make sure that before, is that me right there? You know, this is my favorite thing to do. It looks like a tiny braw. Because I need you to see how bad this looks. My favorite thing is to capture you and then show you, be your. mirror and this eye mask has got to go. It does.

That's terrible. That's so bad, man. That's terrible. Look at the point of my head. Yeah, so we have to have a conversation about, we have to have a conversation about and with Emmanuel Acha when he comes on the show. Because I did a lot of research for Emmanuel Acha because I want everything to be nourishing. We're having some guests on that I've been critical of coming.

up. Manuel A. Schm. Stephen A. Smith. Stephen A. Smith, disreana for no reason. He's going to be on podcast. His book, Straight Shooter. Hold on. Let's plug this book for. Stephen A. Smith's book, Straight Shooter. Wait, wait. Why do you have a copy? Why do you have a copy? Because I went to Mateo yesterday where they had the books. Chelsea gave anyone. Thank you. All right. Excuse me. Can I, can I do that?

I'd let it. This is your. This is your. This is your. your homeboy. Can I, can I plug his book? This is your friend, your mentor. He's been, he's been everywhere talking about it. Yeah. Straight Shooter, a memoir of second chances and first takes. Stephen A. Smith looking very stern on the cover of the book. We're going to talk to Stephen A. Smith here pretty soon on higher learning. And it's imperative that I keep the same energy, but at the same time trying to have nourishing conversations with these gentlemen. And in order to, uh, to, to have a conversation with Acho today, I went back can watch several episodes

of uncomfortable conversations with a black man. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's just not my type of shit, dog. It's just not, it's... I want to talk to Acho about it.

You know, he's a very successful brother. He's doing what he thinks he needs to do. It's just not my kind of shit. It's just not my shit. I think a lot of our conversations shit center around. uncomfortable conversations. And I think we're well within our right

to have an uncomfortable conversation because that's, that is what catapulted him to another level with certain audiences because before he was just in the sports world. And I was there at the beginning of uncomfortable conversations before it even started.

And I don't even know if you know this story. I don't remember if I told it on the podcast when all this started in summer of 2020. But Emmanuel and I can talk about it. But I think we're well within our right to get into it. And if you'll remember, when we first talked about this in the podcast, I said, this was not for black people. And I really want a manual to speak to that or to respond to that because black people weren't messing with it. Yeah. And it seemed like it was never

for or about us. Look, we'll talk about it when he comes on the podcast. It's very well said. You were on the show. I'll rewatch that one. It was hysterical. It's hysterical. On the other side, this is the big deal of the day. We're going to give you Acho's interview after that. The big deal of the day is Ronda Santis. Stopping African-American studies. Deadness tracks.

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or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject tremfaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections,

or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair radio.com. Okay, Rachel? Yeah.

Florida says that AP African American Studies Program lacks educational value. Governor Ron DeSantis has rejected a college board request to approve an African-American Studies course in his state on the grounds that the course violates state law. Here's what was happening so everybody knows what's going on. They are piloting an African-American Studies AP class in 60 schools, multidisciplinary course in civil rights, politics, literature, the arts, and even geography. Very interesting. In Florida, they have the parents write in Education Act, which is to don't say gay act. They don't have the 1619 project in schools in Florida.

There is what Ronda Santis's faction would say, initiative down in Florida to protect what he believes to be divisive and non-constructive language about the history and current state of American political. discourse. He believes that some of the things that are being taught in schools as a regards to black people are devices. And he believes it to be purposely so. He thinks that there is a woke agenda infecting schools everywhere and that teaching AP black history in this particular class furthers that agenda. A couple of things that people need to know. Number one, when asked what specifically about this course violates the law, there was no response from

Ron DeSantis's office. They wouldn't talk about it. Number two, we don't know specifically what is in this course other than broad strokes. There was a social studies teacher named Marlon Williams Clark who said the course is essentially this. How African American Studies became a field of study. The strength of early African American, early African kingdoms, very important. The transatlantic slave trade.

the lives of enslaved people and what they did to resist, we're going to come back to that. Black power, Black Pride, Civil Rights, feminism, and intersectionality. That's basically the broadstrokes of what might be in the class. We still don't know specifically

what it is. The governor still said no. And now we are where we are. So it should be noted that this would be a high school class. It's for AP. It's an AP class. It's an AP high school class.

Because I feel like I was even getting it when I was first reading, I was like, what? They banned this in college. They banned in high school, not that it makes it even better. Also, you have to know that DeSantis, DeSaten, as he's known in some circles, signed legislation called the Stop Woke Act, which stands for stop wrongs to our kids and employees. And this act prohibits any instruction that could make someone feel personally responsible,

feel personal responsibility for historic wrongdoings because of their race, sex, or national origin. Okay? That was challenged. Very recently in the last few days, the federal judge said that Florida was well within its right to have this act. So they are saying no AP courses on African American studies based under, they're saying it violates the Stop Woke Act. I found a little bit more more stuff about what this, because it should be known that this isn't just, hey, we want to do a class on AP African Studies. This class was cultivated. This class was, there were several people with experience of college faculty and teachers across the country. Henry Louis Gates. Yeah, they drew on their expertise to design this for high school students

and to teach them African American studies. And they further said that it, it's an interdisciplinary course that reaches into a variety of fields. It's where African-American studies intersects with literature, the arts, humanities, political science, geography, and science to explore the contributions and experiences of African-Americans. This sounds like an excellent class. And then I thought, huh, so you want to stop an AP class on African-American studies, I'm very curious as to what other AP courses are offered in the state of Florida under some of these public high schools. AP Chinese language and culture. AP French language and culture.

AP German language language and culture. Italian language and culture. Japanese language and culture. Spanish language and culture. AP European history. AP United States history. AP world history. You have all that culture.

all this worldwide history, but the one you want to stop is one that is based on African Americans. This looks like culture erasure to me all over again, because this is the first time that we've seen cultural erasure in our country. When we were brought here, they forced us to adopt Western culture and they tried to completely erase us from what connected us to Africa. You know, it's in recent years that we've really started decade. I mean, the last few, if you did, decades, you know, that really started to connect back to our home, Africa, and take pride in that. They tried to take that away from us. That's exactly what they're doing right now in our history book and in our studies.

No other culture except for African American studies. So that's very key because there are a couple of reasons within there that make this act by DeSantis. so particularly pernicious. Number one, the African Studies movement comes around 1967, 1960s in the late 60s. It is, to have an AP course on African American studies is incredibly important

because it's a more rigorous examination of the black experience in America. And there is a certain amount of of importance. There's a certain amount of prestige that goes along with having an AP course about a certain subject, right? This would have been the first time

that you could gain college credit for this. So this in a lot of ways is a validation of a decades long movement to study the legacy of black people here in American worldwide. So that's one thing. Like, this says,

piloting this course and having this course in schools says that the top is important. It makes the topic important. And that's important just for to elevate the mind's thoughts and voices that have been championed this for a long time, like Henry Lewis Gates. Okay? So that's important.

And number two, some things in here that are being taught. When I see them teaching the lives of enslaved people and what they did to resist, that's very important. To me, that strikes right at the heart of who we are as a people. Think about the moment that a lot of people remember me for. Kanye West says slavery was a choice.

There are all of these people. It's 400 years. Sounds like a choice to me. It's all of y'all here and you didn't do anything. That's essentially what he was saying. That's what he was insinuating by saying 400 years and nobody did anything. well, if you were educated on the lives of enslaved people, if you were educated in the ways in which they resisted enslavement,

in the ways in which they rebelled, you know that that's not true. That in and of itself assigns strength to their human condition of what they thought about their lives. The narrative of black people, as talked about in movies like Django and all around the world, is that were docile, easy to consider. control and by nature survive.

It's untrue. The truth is we're survivors and incredibly hard to kill. So because of that situation, the people that are ancestors that went through these incredible hardships, these discussing unthinkable human tragedies, were people that survived those things so that we could live today. and talking about the ways in which they survived, lends to me the same honor, the same credibility,

and the same reverence to their lives as you would other people who died so that America could live. Other people that died so that America could become what it is. So there's a dignity in learning and understanding the black and African-American experience that it seems like the de facto the leader of the Republican Party

doesn't want black people or America to have. Every single other class you read off AP studies in language and culture, that doesn't threaten the very fabric and understanding of American society like black people being able to access and discuss intimately who they are and where they come from would affect American society today. I hope that this is challenged. I mean, well, let me ask this. Can it be?

Right? If this is found legal under the Stop Woke Act, then I don't know if there's a way that high school students or any student from K through 12 is ever going to have the opportunity to learn about African American studies. or slavery or how we got here, our history, we're not going to be connected to anything because you're not allowed to have something

that makes someone feel, because they think they feel personally responsible when we talk about our journey of how we came from Africa here. That makes you feel guilty. Well, in Florida, that place, they'll never get to a place where they'll be able to teach that,

to learn that, to understand that, which is why I'll go back to, talking about erasure. We're getting erased from history. And Florida has an act that says that that's legal to do. So this is a dub. This one is lost. And let me tell you what I mean about that.

A dub for them. Yes. Yeah. No, no, no. It's a dub for the class. The class is done. Like the balls in his court. The federal judge ruled and said that, you know, this is a dub.

Okay. But let me tell you. you how I look at this. All right. So we're not being erased. They're stopping us from writing. They already erases. Okay. They already erases. They're stopping us from writing. This is the beginning of the book in a lot of ways. They're stopping us from writing. There have been other sort of milestones in the study of African Americans, their lineage and their history. The Northern Anthology of African American literature came out in 1997. It was African American National Biography. All of these things are wins for African-American.

studies, this was the going to be a huge win to further, I want to say legitimize, but that's kind of what it is, or to add further value to the study and understanding of black people in their American condition. This is the only way to fight this, in my opinion. Because even if this pilot program is accepted in Florida schools, I have thought. that it's not going to look anything like what it would have looked like. Oh, no. Because having a milk toast version of it, having a vanilla version of it,

is worse than having it at all. Okay? It's not even that things aren't being taught. It's that typically that are the wrong things that are being taught. So what you need are the people who know about this, Dr. Gates and all of the other people from the Hutchinson Center for African American Studies, they need to be allowed to make the curriculum here, or it doesn't matter. it doesn't really matter.

So if they go back and say, hey, we've looked at this, we don't think it's, and now we get a version of it that's mutated, that's not good either. Okay. This has to be remembered because we're going to be in an election pretty soon. We were in one back in 2018,

where Ron DeSantis was up for a gubernatorial election. He very narrowly won. He very narrowly won that election over a black man. And this is what you get. This is what you've got. What you've gotten is the, don't say gay bill. What you've gotten is migrants being shipped throughout the dead of night to different places. And what you've gotten is the literal spitting in the face of black progress in terms of the way we are discussed and talked about in schools.

Literally rolling back across progress. Yeah. What's going to happen is a guy. like this, he does all of these things, he gets a primary win. And then once he gets a primary win, now he's in a general election. And then in a general election, a guy like this very covertly tries to roll back who he was to appeal to a wider audience. Yeah. He does it very subtly. And people start thinking, oh, well, if he does this for the economy, or if he lowers my taxes, or if he Rod DeSantis and his wing of the Republican Party,

there aren't a threat to your bottom line. There aren't a threat. They're a threat to the very existence and identity of who you are and who you want to be. The Republican Party, as led by guys like him and Trump, are an existential threat, an existential threat to the future of America and the freedom of black people.

this is this is this is literally book burning educational or willing in mind control bullshit like in all kinds of ways and so you know like the south made it's I'm from the south and I love the South the South the South long ago made the decision that they would rather be racist than be fed the South in a lot of ways this is all history you're you. guys can look up, chose starvation over black liberation because there were all types of policies that would have would have really helped the southern part of the United States economically and socially. But if it meant that niggas got a piece of it, then motherfuckers will rather starve. And this is going to hurt Florida. I heard Jelani Cobb say that there are going to be all types of educational professionals who don't want to be a part of the school.

system in Florida. I hope. High school and college level because of this, and it's going to cause a brain drain in Florida. They don't give a fuck as long as you don't know who the fuck you are.

It's really remarkable. And let's be honest, too. Florida's just the start. It's what happens. They watch what happens in a state. They watch what works. These other red states and they're going to emulate this. It's not going to just stay in Florida. And that's the problem too.

Texas is probably coming with the nigger bill. Oh, you know how Greg Abbott rolls. The nigger bill, N-I-G-G-E-R. Now it's going to get even... Even racist? No, no, no, no, no. Now it's going to get even realer. The nigger bill.

Nigger. This is what... No, now it's going to get extra racist. I like that. But they would... Yeah, now it's going to get extra racist. Nigger bill. Yeah.

the niggas. They're going to come with so crazy Bill while you can't fucking say Marl Luther King Jr.'s name in school. All right. We're going to stay on top of this story with Descanis. And we're going to make sure that there aren't anything that we can do in order to

make sure that this isn't the last word here in Florida. But you guys all need to know this. That man, Ron DeSantis, is going to run for president. And when he runs for president, it's going to happen to me. I'm going to be disenchanted with the Democratic.

I'm going to be all this and I'm going to forget what the fuck the stakes are. And it's moments like this that are good for me to remember. We'll remind you. We'll keep you in check. It's just sad. I want to, it's like a fuck. Okay. All right.

On the other side of this, Emmanuel Acha. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer.

Visit weathertech.com today. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia,

proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. All right, higher learning family. We have a special guest in the building, best-selling author, host of uncomfortable conversations,

the black man. Illogical is the book and it is out on paperback when, Emmanuel? It is out here shortly in about two weeks from today. So out at the end of January. Out at the end of January, one of the co-hosts

of speak for yourself on FS1. Now, man, things have changed. Speak now. Oh, excuse me. Joy will be so mad. Joy will be so mad. Joy will be so mad.

Join it. It is not speak for yourself. Speak. Speak. Speak. Emmanuel Acho joins us today on higher learning. Emmanuel, what's up,

bro? What's up? Man, Van, I ain't seen you in a hot minute. Been a long time. Rachel, I've seen you,

I don't know, maybe last week. But it's good to see my people, man. Let me, let me jump into this real quick, real quick. Before I even get to anything,

Marcelus Wiley made some comments on his podcast about Rachel, you didn't see this? I just want to make sure Marcelus Wiley made some comments on his podcast. I want to give you an opportunity to respond.

He said that on his podcast he talked about all the beefs that he had with his various co-host over the years. And you were in that list of people. He said that you were angling for your own show and you did not tell him

that you were angling for your own show. Basically, Cell said that you did him dirty. Your response, did you hear it? Did you see it? What did you think? Have you and him talked? Of course I saw it, bro.

It's funny. You said, you want to give me an opportunity to respond. Man, you know it's 2023. If you want to respond, you got all the opportunities you need. It's funny. I mean, I don't know, Sell threw that into like a beef post, but that wasn't even beef. It was really just his interpretation of his exit. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was his interpretation of his exit. Sell and I don't even have beef. I saw Sell maybe four weeks ago, five weeks ago. What's interesting about people, and I think in all honesty, what I respect about Marcellus Wiley is he will shoot straight and he will say things that are offensive, but he won't ever be offended.

And that's what I've just learned about him. And I respect about him. He said that and so many people hit me up. I was like, yo, you know, you snakeed him out of a job. I was like, with all due respect, I showed up at 29 years old and had a marginal NFL career. I don't have the power to snake somebody. I was 29 years old at the time. You know what I mean?

So I don't have the power nor the ability to do what was suggested. But no, honestly, I mean, I love what he's doing now. And Cell is one of the greatest co-hosts I've ever worked with. So respect to him. Wait, so he didn't leave on his own? It depends who you ask, right? I mean, I think he did leave on his own because he had the opportunity. in my mind to stay in some capacity, but I don't, you know, there's your truth, there's

his truth and there's the truth. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't really know, man. This media stuff is crazier than sports. Is it? Yes, it is. Because it seems like in that situation, there would just be like one thing that happened and that people would like be able to kind of say what it is. But because when it happened at the time, it was like sales going to do something else. You've got a new show with Shady and Joy. It seemed like everybody was happening. I never I would I hit sell throughout at all and I was like yo just keep me updated like what you're move what you're moving this what you think and that so I didn't know sell wasn't for sure coming back until I saw him announce he wasn't for sure coming back you know what I'm saying I knew he I knew we were going to be restructured I knew he was probably going to get his own thing at the network I was going to get my own thing at the network but I did not know cell wasn't coming back until I saw he wasn't coming back and I was like sell don't ever lose though that's the thing I mean highest paid larger in NFL history, made it on television by 35. So I knew regardless of what Cell's going to do, he's not going to take a hell.

Yeah. So look, uncomfortable conversations with Black Man, okay? Your show, the show that kind of catapulted you to the next level. I've watched it. I got to be real with you. Everyone is listening to this. It's just a reality. I've been very, very critical of different Emmanuel Acho situations over the years.

You have. You have. For sure. And I went back to watch the show and try to research more and get a deeper understanding of what the aim of the show was before you came on the podcast. And I have to admit, like, I just cannot fuck with it in any way. It almost feels, bro, like, I watch it. I'm, it, the show angers me. Have you ever had anybody else that has had that reaction to it? Of course. Of course. I mean, if, if you want to avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

So if I wanted to avoid criticism, I would have to live my life inside my house and keep my mouth shut. So no doubt about it, man. I've had that awe here at all the time. More often than not, I hear positive feedback. I recall Akbar Baja Bia meal of someone I greatly respect. I'm sure you all have crossed pass with him at some point in time, you know, like, hey, thank you for saying what I did not have the words to say. But truth be honest, truth be told, bro, like, the show wasn't for you. And I think I've had to realize, like, yo, the show wasn't for everybody. Um, the show, you're educated. And you're more than educated on what it takes to be a black man, because you are in fact, a black man. You have lived in America as a black man. You know exactly what that looks like,

feels like sounds like particularly based on generations. Show wasn't for you. The show was for people who have no idea what it might be like to walk in a black man and or woman's shoes. Show wasn't for Rachel. Rachel's my dog. Rachel's my sis. I've known Rachel for since I was in high school, truth be told, because I used to run

track meets in my old high school. Show wasn't for her. And that's no slight. It's just to say that I create. this show with the intention of enlightening people's eyes who had their eyes closed. Mm-hmm. Rich? We talked about it on this podcast before, and I remember, this was like, man, when we first started,

and I remember I even told you, Emmanuel, I was like, listen, I said this, this black people don't get it. They don't understand it necessarily. It's not necessarily for us. And I told you that we talked about that on this very podcast. From what I have heard when it comes to criticism about uncomfortable conversations, is that black people feel like you are too accommodating to white people in your conversation. How would you respond to that?

You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. That's how I would respond to that. But is honey what is necessary, I think is the thing. Because in 2020, we were in a completely different mindset. and we were outraged. And so I think the response was negative because from black people because they didn't feel like

you should be handling it with kid gloves or with honey. And it seemed more accommodating to them that you were giving them too much space rather than telling them certain things that we were going through. I respect that. I think like we all say,

black people aren't a monolith. So you have my dog Toby and Uigwe, hip hop artists, That's my dog. Nigeria. And he going to say a song, try Jesus. Don't try me because I throw hands. He going to say arrest the killers of Brianna Taylor.

He's going to sing X, Y, and Z. You have Amanda Seals. And Amanda Seals going to, she going to come at you, incredibly educated. She going to come at you. You have Sean King. He's going to say what he's going to say. You got Ebram X, Kendi. He's going to deliver the information incredibly didactically broken down.

And you have my approach. And I'm not going to rap about arresting the killers of Bionna Taylor. And Toby's probably not going to sit in an all-white room, you know, saying, dear white brothers and sisters, but I'm also not going to undermine what Toby or Amanda or anybody else is going to do. And I would hope they would not undermine me. Like there's different types of everything in this world. You got different water bottle, flavors, you got different types of TVs, you got flash screens,

you got plasmas. It's all good. So what I am more often than not frustrated by is like, bro, you don't have to like it. Sis, you don't have to like it. Not literally y'all, but the proverbial bro and sis, I'm thinking it's like, breast all love. Like I don't necessarily agree with what so many of these other people are doing. I'm like, you know, what's that doing? How's that moving the needle?

But I know people don't agree with me, but what I'm not going to do is publicly undermine them. Because then now it looks like we're fighting against each other, which is what. people want to see from us in the first place. It's black people fighting black people. We'll get to that in a second. When you said your method, what is your method? My method is this. I believe that if you really want to understand something, you have to immerse yourself

in a culture. I grew up Nigerian-American. What that means is I have the privilege of knowing where my parents came from. I go back to my village in Nigeria. Okay, I'm tracked with me because I'm going somewhere with it. But I went to a private school. majority white in Dallas. But then I went to church in the hood.

Rachel can attest to that. Rachel, I think I went to Concord. I went to Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship. No doubt about it. So I grew up with black people. I grew up with Nigerian people. I grew up with white people. As a result,

I know when white people say, well, racism doesn't exist. I know why they say that. Because I've been in them rooms when they're saying that. When I kick it with black people and they're like, all white people are racist. Hmm. I know why you're saying.

net. All the while I have the privilege and luxury of not having generational trauma because my parents were born in Nigeria. So, man, my method is removing some of the sting because I don't have that sting and trying to deliver a message in a manner that people can receive it. Primarily, white people. Okay. Let me tell you why what you just said offends me. Okay. All right. First of all, there are a couple of things. I grew up South Baton Rouge, Louisiana. all my classmates were white. I was in the gifted program. All of my class mixture white from the beginning.

McKinley High School, gifted program. McKinley High. 80% black school. Gifted program, all white. Vans in the class with them. Vans in the class, vans playing basketball and sports and everything else with the black kids.

Mama from South Baton Rouge, all of that. I understand the being pulled between two worlds. I understand having the insight into two worlds. you saying that you don't have generational trauma and you didn't mean it this way, but the reason, and it's, I have to name it, you saying that you don't have any generational trauma in some way meaning or that in some way meaning that your delivery method to white people is going to be either more effective or more sanitized is to me dangerous. And let me tell you why. everybody that you just named and what you're talking about does what they do in different ways.

I don't think that any of the things that they do are necessarily harmful. But what I could say is a black man, a prominent one, acting as an emotional butler for white people and serving them the most milk toasts, unspicy, unseasoned brand

of racial discourse and accountability possible could definitely be harmful because of what it does, I saw episodes where you were on there with Matthew McConaughey, and Matthew McConaughey out and out said, when will Black Lives Matter end? He goes, well, when is it going to be time for it to be over? But that's an outrageous question to ask at the time that he's sitting down with you. And it's an outrageous question to posit when we're going to be able to say,

All Lives Matter, after everyone just watched George Floyd get his head blown off, I watched you also sit down with the police. In the-in-in-in-the-conversation with the police that I watched you have, there was nothing tangible that addressed the systemic issues of policing that lead to unfair and deadly outcomes all over the country. It was about whether or not the police liked back black people, whether or not they were nice to black people. And even as I wrote it down, the police are human too.

Emmanuel, who gives a fuck? Like we're fighting for our lives. And to me, having a conversation like that at that particular time, it's not that it's a different method. Everybody has a different method. Is that it's the wrong method. It's that it gives cover for a lot of the issues

that you're supposed to be discussing. Roger Goodell's on the show. I watched the whole interview with Roger Goodell. Roger Goodell is talking about Colin Kaepernick in the past tense. Colin Kaepernick right now is fighting to get back in the NFL. If the NFL cared about Colin Kaepernick or what was going on in his life, Roger Goodell could be an agent of change now. You get the opportunity to talk to him.

And the fact that he's speaking about a man like that in the past tense is just simply never broached. And when I'm watching it, I know that you have the best of intentions, you're a good guy. My question is, what the fuck is the point of all this? Is it to make them feel better about all of these things that are going on? Like, for what? Like, why? Like, why would you, why are you talking to someone? And there's zero call to action. It's just, now I'm going to go be a better person. It just don't work that way. This rhetorical is actual a question to be answered. That's, you can answer however you feel the need to. What you, like, what I said was, what I said was, What you said was everybody does a different way.

What I said was the way that you do it to me is no way at all. That's fair. I think that's subjective, a subject to your interpretation, the subject to your opinion, which I respect. I will say this, anybody watching and listening, I encourage them to also go watch any episode that you referenced because some things were out of context. I would also encourage anybody watching or listening to understand that Matthew McConaughey asking a question. questioned is not an indictment of my response, nor did you submit my response. What you say? Dude, it was two and some change years ago, so I would have to go back in.

I can tell you what you say. Would you like me to tell you what you said? If you have the direct quote written down, yes, but I wouldn't want you to paraphrase. Okay. What you said was not right now. You said right now, right now it has to be about Black Lives Matter. All right. Well, then I would feel as though that answer would suffice to someone asking, when will

that end, not right now, because right now it is about Black Lives Matter. As it pertains to the cops, well, I also think it would be a waste of our time for me to try to address every issue you or anyone had with every episode. I think, at least it would be a waste of my time. I can't speak to your time. I honor your time. What I can say is this. Dude, it's subject to people's opinion, man. And like, if people wanted me to be harsher with commissioner of the NFL Roger Goodell, I get it. But I went in there with one specific question to be asked. What would it take for Colin Kaepernick to be back into the league? Everybody in their mama had been posting about it, tweeting about it, shade rooming about it.

But at the end of the day, nobody sat down with the man. He wouldn't sit down with them. But he would sit down with you, which makes your conversation even more important than that. Absolutely right. And so when I sat down with him, my- is free to come on higher learning. And I have a litany of questions to ask him. But he's not going to talk to me.

He's going to talk to you. Well, I would ask you to ask yourself, why is that? Because you don't threaten him. Because the reason why he will, the reason why he'll talk to you is because he's going to come out on the other side of the conversation looking better. The reason why he wouldn't talk to me is because I'm going to come out on the other side of the conversation needing answers. Before we get to this, Brian Flores.

sued the NFL for discrimination. On speak for yourself with Marcellus Wiley, you brought up the fact that Brian Flores didn't have any black people that worked for one of the law firms that he used to represent, to represent himself in the lawsuit. Why was it necessary for you to poke holes in Brian Flores at that point? Great question. Great question.

Because my thought process is, is. Brian Flores, if you are going to sue the National Football League, and clearly for those listening, watching all the things, I apologize for jumping all around. Usually I am much more of a streamlined speaker. If Brian Flores is going to sue the National Football League for a lack of representation, then I would hope that his team representing him would have representation. Now, what people don't realize, because as you Van thankfully have suggested, the law firm reached out to me and said, hey, we do have representation an X, Y, and Z place, but if you can, do you have any other resumes, et cetera, of black people for us to look at and consider? I then take that information.

I reach out to my homeboy who's a lawyer and say, hey, can I help present black people to this law firm? So I think a lot of people think I do things for show. I'm telling you about this first time I've ever told anybody about this, because it's actually irrelevant. Like, the good I'm trying to do in the world, I don't really like need a pat on the back for. But that law firm, which had no black people, then ends up hitting me up, and I end up setting them resumes of black people to try to help promote black education and all these things. Uncomfortable conversations, I came out my own pocket with that. I rented a studio space in Austin, Texas. I hired a wedding videographer. Each episode cost me $10,000 to $15,000 by myself until I could get partnership because my objective was always to promote good in the

world, even if it cost me financially. And what people don't realize, I didn't have money like that back then. So that was my reason for the Brian Flores piece is optically, I want us to be above reproach. And I want us to be without being able to be attacked. And at the moment in which I saw that, wait, the team representing you isn't even white. Let me bring that to attention. That team reached out to me. And all of a sudden, now I'm sending them rather maze. Last thing I'll say about that. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no. Because I'm still a bunch of...

Last thing I'll say about that. Last thing I'll say about that is I'm proud of... I'm happy for all of the... The proud and happy for anyone who got a job because of whatever went on with Brian Flores and the law firm in your relationship with them. The problem is that when you're looking for that clip, do you know what you get?

You get 15, 20, 30 clips of alt-right sports commenters. disseminating information about how Brian Flores is full of shit and what he's talking about in his fight and lawsuit with the NFL because you're pointing out the incredibly insignificant hypocrisy

of the fact that his legal team didn't have any black people on it. I disagree that it's incredibly when his when his fight is with the NFL, right? When his fight is with the NFL, right? When his fighters with the NFL. You are literally looking down the bench of what he is talking about. And you're

saying, yeah, sure. But what do you have going on as far as your law firm is concerned? And everyone that's talking about that, you're giving cover for them to say that what he's talking about is bullshit and that it's less important because he's a

hypocrite. And I'm not, when I say this, this is not conjecture. I'm watching people going, wow, finally somebody calling out the woke media on Brian Flores that has absolutely nothing to do with what Brian Flores was talking about dealing with complaining about or seeking financial retribution from from the NFL zero percent it's a completely other issue if you want to have a complete if you want to have a different conversation about how we are being represented when if you if your manager is black if your lawyer is black if your accountant is black but

in his fight against the league, one thing has nothing to do with the other. And to my earlier point, what it did was give cover to people who are acting in bad faith. And that's a power that you're wielding sometimes that I don't think that you see. The lawyers that all got jobs because I'm happy for them. But there is a gigantic fight with guys who represent the industry that you played in that are getting kicked in their ass by the NFL. And to me, the Brian Flores thing took a chuck out of their ass. Am I wrong about that? You read some things online that I didn't read.

I can say this, that I have spoken at nauseam about the discrepancy between the lack of NFL ownership being minority and coaches. I have spoken at nauseam about the fact that the Rooney Rule, what it has done for the NFL and its lack of significance going forward. I do have a question, though, what's your intention of this conversation? to keep the same energy that I keep with you when I'm not on the, when you're not on the podcast. We're going to have you on the podcast.

There's no way I can be as critical of you when you're not on the podcast and, and, and not say these things. To be honest with you, I think you're a good guy. Like, honestly, I think you're a good guy. I think you're stepping out in the world in the way that you know how. And I think that I'm doing it too. And I think that I fuck up all the time, that I make mistakes all the time. And I think that we all do.

but I just, I can't be a bitch like that. Like, I'm on your ass a lot because a lot of the stuff that I see, it's like, especially during that time, it was nuts, it was crazy. And when we had the conversation on the phone that we had on the phone, it started off in a place where it was very adversarial

where you called me over something that you had said on Twitter and that I made fun of. And then at the end, we understood each other. And I think that I understand you, but I cannot not bring up some of the, things, I haven't had the chance to talk to you. So that's why this is happening. I feel like it's kind of a waste of my time. Like if you want to have this conversation, you just call me.

Like I just don't realize I don't know what the takeaway of this conversation is. Because as it seems now, it seems as though you've come with a ton of receipts. I do not have the time, nor have I put in the bandwidth to refute anything that you said, nor am I really that confrontational. So I'm not even really going to challenge all of the things that you said. You've quoted an episode from Matthew McConaughey from June 7th, 2020, from officers from November of 2020, a Brian Flores quote from an old show that I used to do without also supplying the listener and or viewer with all of the positive I've done about Brian Flores, that situation, Bruce Ariens, that situation, Mike Tomlin, that situation.

all of the positive I've done. So I just kind of feel like y'all hit me with the okidoc in regards. What's the ok doke. No, Emmanuel, let me say this. No, no, no, no, Emmanuel, let me say this because I don't like being accused of, you know, like bringing you on under any kind of false pretenses. You know, you and Van have had outside conversations. You and I have had outside conversations. You know that things haven't always been, you know, great when we're. referencing things that you've said before. We've talked about things you've said multiple times when it comes to Shakari, when it comes to Calvin Ridley.

We've talked about that on this podcast. And I don't want you to think that anybody's trying to trick you on this, but I think it's relevant to what this podcast is about. Our podcast, Higher Learning, is about black culture and how certain things intersect with it. And you do things that are about black culture. So I think it's fair to have a conversation, even if you and Van are on totally different sides of it. It's fair to bring that to this podcast because that's what we do.

So it's not about not recognizing great things that you've done. It's about just having a conversation about certain things. So I don't want you to feel that way. Look, I am confident enough in who I am and what I've accomplished. I'm just kind of like, this isn't a conversation. this is van chastising me and me responding to being chastised. I don't, I can take it.

Now, with all honesty, I just got off a two hour show. So like, I'd rather not utilize my time doing this. But I can, Rachel, you know,

I love you always will. I can, but I'm just like, I don't know, I want this to be productive. I'm looking for. How would it be productive to you? Because what I think,

so this is what I think. I think, and I'll do this. I'll apologize. if you feel attacked. No, no, bro, I don't need, I don't need an apology. I truly don't. You just threaten to walk off this.

You just threaten to walk off the shit. No, I literally, my publicist, well, pause. My publicist says, let me know if you want to rap. I said, no, leave me on. Okay, okay. So, so, so, so, I'm not, I'm not going anywhere. So, so, so this is the honest feeling that I have. And I've been, and I do the talks, I've talked with Jason Whitlock.

I've had the talk to brothers in the nation of Islam, had pro gun guys. like this is kind of what I do. It's no problem. I think that your brand of what it is that you do is harmful. And I would be lying if I did not say that. I think that it's harmful. I think sometimes that what I do is harmful. I have all kinds of ways that I am fraudulent, that I am inconsistent, that we're people, right?

the reason why I have examples of this, this is our research for the interview, actually hoping to be like, yo, I have this guy all wrong. There are a lot of things that I disagree with. What I want to understand is from you is like, for someone that looks at things like me, for someone who thinks that we have

sort of made way too many beds for white America, we've given them way too many soft beds, way too many pillows. The last thing they need is another cozy blanket. Like, do you not see that someone that's trying to build something that's challenging to America and challenging to the status quo

and challenging to the idea that a white person could wake up in the morning and be like, oh, my God, like, I have all of these internalized sort of issues inside of my brain and now I can go out and post something on Instagram, it's all good. Like, we don't need, we need people who understand that co-conspirators and allies mean getting your hands dirty.

And sometimes I think the way that we talk about these things, we have to be very intentional. And so for me, that's the thing. It's not, it's not anything personal. It's like when you said the javelin thing and we talked, I'm like, dog, I don't have no problem with you. But that statement was wild. I vehemently disagree, vehemently disagree that what I am doing is harm. for. I can meet you in that what I am doing is not as contentious as people might like. I can agree that what I'm doing is not as aggressive as people that might like. I can agree that what I am doing

there might be too kind for what people might like. But no, honestly, like, it's just how I grew up. So I am going to fight the way I know how. And what I mean by that is, like, I don't curse. I don't have an issue with people cursing. I just don't curse. So if people want me to like curse, I just don't. I like, I use my words. I just like, I don't have that natural predisposition of aggression.

I have a natural predisposition of peace. So I am going to fight the way I know how. Now, for those that want to be more aggressive, by all means, I'm not going to knock it. I'm just fascinated by people who knock me because I'm like, bro, you're fighting your fight the way you know how. I'm fighting my fight the way I know how. Now, why do I disagree that what I'm doing is harmful? Because I do not think, in my opinion, based upon my experience, and I believe that your

experience is your expertise. I do not think that a white person is leaving a conversation with me more ignorant, more uneducated, or more in the dark than they were before. I don't think that in my experience. And I have a litany of emails to prove so. But at the end of the day, I understand that there are different approaches. And I respect other people's approach. I believe some approaches are harmful, but I respect everybody's approach. What do you think?

Which approach do you think is harmful, curious? I believe the approach that is excessively, emphasis in the operative word they're being excessively, I believe the approach that is excessively aggressive is harmful. Reason being is if you are trying to get someone to learn a message, whether it's educational, whether it's in sports, whether it's relational, whatever the case may be, and you approach it with too much aggression, they'll never even be able to hear the message because of how the message is. is wrapped. So if the message is wrapped too aggressively, they'll never, it won't even make it to the front door. And so while it said well intended, it just won't even make it to the front door. We talk

about the conversation with Roger Goodell. I don't think I did any damage in that conversation. I couldn't get him to answer the question straight up and I tried. Boy, did I try. I edited it the episode so people don't see how many times I asked, but I couldn't get him to answer the question straight up. But I think that is more productive than hopping on Twitter and being like, Roger Goodell is the reason Colin Kaepernick's not in the National Football League, because that's just not true. So yeah, man, I think that that's what it is. I respect y'all stance. I respect that everybody don't like me. And you know, the hard part van is like, I've had to come to terms with that, especially people who don't even know me. When I first called you, I'm like, bro, I don't even know

dude and he coming at my neck. I'm like, I don't even, I had to call Rachel to be like, hey, let me just call him because like, I thought it was love, but I guess it's not. It was, you said that we couldn't have Olympic athletes smoking marijuana because somebody was going to get high and throw a javelin and stab somebody in the heart. My gee. That's hyperbole, bro. What did you say? What did the tweet say? What did the tweet say, Emmanuel. Tell the people what the tweet. Emmanuel.

Emmanuel. It was the jabal. What did the tweet? Yo, hold on for a record. Hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. That's fucking hysterical. I don't care, bro.

That's so fucking funny. What you said was hyperbole though. What you just said was hyperbole. What did you say? You said that the javelin was going to do what? What was the javelin going to do? I said, I projected the question of, it's okay if somebody's running wall high in a straight line,

but what happens if they're throwing the javelin? I never mentioned any. anything about stabbing somebody in the heart. Fine. That's, that's funny. But they'd be reckless with the javelin. Yes, he exaggerated at the end. And you know what you, and you know what you said to me when we were on the phone? You said that you've never smoked weed before.

Correct. So you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And so that to me, and so like, and so to me, I, I, I didn't come, I didn't come at you personally there. I just said, yo, this is really funny. because only someone that had never smoked weed before would say something like that. And we talked about it. When you got on the phone, we discussed it.

And I was like, boom. And I think that there are other people who I know who also talked about it as well. This is the part of it that like I'm discussing. I understand what you're saying. There's no way. The reason why I think sometimes things like that can be harmful, and I'm definitely not saying I'm the right guy to deliver any messages to anyone at all. when the cops leave, when you're sitting down with the police officers,

the police officers leave, you have an opportunity with the police officers to actually get through to them and discuss what's at the center of the heart of the actual problem, right? I think something that is harmful is people thinking they have the answer or people thinking that they have an, an hold on an issue when they actually don't. because that sends them off into the world willy-nilly.

All the emails that you've gotten and all the stuff that you've gotten and all the things that people have taught, I'm sure they feel amazing about themselves. And I'm sure they feel amazing about the world. But to me, like, aggression, we're talking about power and safety. There is no way to be safe if you are not powerful, like zero. if you get in a fight with somebody as big as what you are

and with the athletic pedigree that you have, right? And they want to hurt you and you want to hurt them, but they are 5 foot 1, 110 pounds. You can extend to that person altruism and say, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm going to let you slide. But you're taking care of them. Like, for me as a black man,

I'm not asking for white Americans to have more information so that they can take better care of me. I'm not asking that for that. What I'm letting what I'm letting people know is if things do not happen the way that we need them to happen,

we will fuck this situation up. Period. And when I say fuck this situation up, I don't mean going out into the world and necessarily doing violence. I mean unity, group operations, collective banking,

pooling all resources, doing things that affect the bottom line and the socioeconomic structures in America in a way that makes white people uncomfortable. That makes them uncomfortable because everything that George Floyd was the last straw and nothing changed, bro. The police killed more people last year than they ever have. Three guys here at the beginning of this year. All of the other shit, it doesn't work. and and it's somebody's look I don't want to I'm really in in in in no way trying to trying to offend you you know I deal with this but significantly worse every day on social media um but one of the words you said there was unity you said unity and that that stuck with me

But this is the most ununited conversation that I've had publicly with another black person. Because when you all dropped this episode, nobody's going to leave this conversation. I'm like, wow, that was phenomenal dialogue between those two brothers and that sister. No, they're going to leave thinking, man, this dude, Acho, whack as hell. I knew it. They won't. It's going to be mad people that are going to be pissed off at me. Yeah, they will be.

They're going to be mad people, dog. It's going to be both. There's no like, this isn't like a united conversation. Well, let me, then let me ask you this question. I want to ask you this question. And I was always going to ask you this question. I'm not asking you this based on anything that you just said. I think that we can all both agree, Van and I, that you have good intentions in what you started.

Obviously, I was there at the start with you. I was there at the start. So I know where your headspace was when you wanted to start uncomfortable conversations. I know that. You were my first call. never doubt never doubted you on that and I think and I told you when you went to do it by yourself I was like it's got to be you and we talked about why it wouldn't work with the two of us like we talked about that but this is what I want to say and I and I think this is a good way to wrap up this conversation it's almost two and a half years or it is two and a half years since you started uncomfortable conversations no three what are we two and a half two and a half years since you've done a comfortable conversation with the black man Where do you think we are now since when you started that, believe it was June, when you started that in June 2020, how do you think we are now as a society since you started it? And specifically with some of the topics that you address in those conversations.

We talked about police. Van just brought up a statistic about police. Where do you think we are in coming, because we talk about unity, where do you think we are? Are we in a better place? We, when you say we, you're talking about us in total. You're talking about black people. You're talking about black and white people. I'm talking about black and white people because that's the point of the whole series. I would say that people are more enlightened that a problem does exist, but we haven't yet gotten to fixing the problem.

I think prior to the murder of George Floyd, I think the lights were off. I don't even think people knew like, when I say people, I don't think the majority of like my white brothers and white sisters realized like, oh, there's really a problem. problem here. I think they were just going about their merry way. Systemic racism doesn't exist. Oppression doesn't exist. Even after Donald Trump, they had no clue. They didn't know anything about them. They didn't care. Yeah, I didn't care. I think the person who speaks in absolutes is an absolute liar. So I wouldn't say they had no clue, but I would say like they were less illuminated. Then I think after the murder of George Floyd and since then, now there is more of an awareness to there is a problem. I think a lot of things are for optics, but some things are for outcomes. Rachel, you and I

have both been a part of things that have been done for optical reasons. On television, there are things that are done for optical reasons with different brands or things that are done for optical reasons. But I do think that some people and some companies also care about outcomes and not just optics. So, yeah, I mean, where are we? I think now we are more enlightened. But I also said, and I ended my book with racism and racial equality, rather. It's not a finish line you cross. It's a road you travel. So we're not going to get to a point. and be like, we did it, guys, we solved racism. It's just not going to happen.

But I do think we can travel the road. Fair enough. I will say this. We can't solve racism. We can't. But we can set a price for it. That's all I'm asking for. The only thing I'm, I don't care about allies.

I don't care about any of that stuff. I'm asking for a price. The thing that was the most powerful about the Me Too movement was that women took their power back. And they said, hey, if you treat us in a certain way in society, we will take everything from you. And there will be stakes. And in order to kind of set those stakes, you have to be, in my opinion, aggressive about what it means to transgress and to put the safety, the evolution, and the existence of black people in danger. And that is what I'm asking white people from. I'm asking for them to keep their toes behind the line so that we can all get on together.

you ain't got to like me. And I don't need to understand you. I just need there to be rules. That's it. By the way, this was an uncomfortable conversation. Uncomfortable for me? Comfortable for Rachel? Uncomfortable for you.

And it's not just uncomfortable conversations with black men that white people have to have. Sometimes two black men, of two black men and a black woman, a black woman and two black men, they also have to have uncomfortable conversations. As a matter of fact, I think sometimes that might be more important. That was Emmanuel Acho. This is Higher Learning. The book is illogical. The show is speak.

Joy is going to be super, super pissed off at me. Emmanuel Acho on Twitter, everywhere on Fox. Appreciate your time. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

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That was Emmanuel watch. First of all, you guys know me by now. And you guys know what happens when get go. So, I do want to say that I did not anticipate, maybe I went too hard. I don't, I want to say this publicly right now. I do not think that Emmanuel Acho was a bad dude. And you said that before. I don't think he's a bad dude. I think he's a good person.

And he is probably a much more moral, aligned honorable person than me in many ways. Look, man, I don't know if it's my anxiety disorder. I don't know. This shit pisses me off.

Like, I, like, we did it. We did the show, Rachel. And I apologize to you, Rachel, too, for sucking up all the oxygen in that interview. And I know the gentleman is your friend. So, like, uh,

um, I, I've been in a deep, deep, deep funk over some of the statistics that we talked about in the last episode. The fact that the police killed more people last year. The fact that this is still happening. Like, y'all don't just get fucked up over shit like this. Like, y'all don't, like, all of that shit was for nothing. Think about, think about where we were, man.

Like, think about being out on the street, not knowing whether or not the virus was going to fucking kill you. not knowing, like, you're taking chances out there. I saw women out there crying. I saw people. And like, we write back in the same place and it's the same shit. And we bullshit and we get out. I'm like, it's not even, it's not his fault. I'm sorry.

He is right. I am angry for so many reasons. I'm mad. And I need to be a better person in so many ways. There's so. many ways I need to be a better person. So many ways I need to be more of an ally to black women. I need to be more of an ally to, I need to be.

But this shit, I'm mad. I can't fucking, I can't fucking wrap my mind around this shit. I can't fucking deal with this shit. I just can't. It's what people feared when the Black Lives Matter movement took off after George Floyd, when people were outraged, enraged, when people were posting black squares, the fear was we get to a point where all of it would die down and things would go back to the way that they were. Not only has that happened, it's gotten worse. And it's even magnified, or I guess it's even

multiplied is what I should say, because as Emmanuel said, when I said, well, where do you think we are now two and a half years later? He said that people are enlightened. So people, people are enlightened and it's gotten worse, what does that say about the society that we live in? That makes you angry. And so I understand all of that. And I think, and I hate Emmanuel walked away from this, what I felt like not getting it. You all have two completely different approaches. You handle this situation totally different. You are on opposite ends of the spectrum. And I truly believe he knew that coming into this. but at the end of the day, you're not knocking him for trying or his intentions. You're saying that you don't agree with it

and you feel in ways that it's harmful. Doesn't mean that he's doing it in a bad way. It's just harmful. I actually hate that the conversation ended like that because I think that this could have been a really productive conversation and I think that maybe on both ends you got in your feelings.

And so it became more, the topic switched and they became more of the wrong thing than it should have been about black people having it disagreeing about our approach and how we fix something that has been on us since we have existed in this society. So I hate that the conversation turned that way. You know what I mean? So let me tell you like what happened seriously. And it probably wasn't a little unfair to him. But let me tell you what happened. It's just like I'm walking. around and I'm listening to kind of like what's going on. You know, I'm walking around. I'm really

doing research. Rachel, I called you today. I called you today. I called you today. I called you today and I said, and I called you because I wasn't sure. I called you. I said, hey, I know that this is a friend of yours. I'm like, this is not going to go well. I said to you, I said, this is going to be a hard interview for me. Like this is going to be like a tough one. Because as nobody is completely pure. Like I work here for a corporation. I don't work for a black company.

He doesn't work for a black company. You don't work for a black company. I don't have a black company. I do have a black company. Shout out to six feet over productions. Nobody is pure. Nobody is beautiful approach. I worked at TMZ for nine years.

And like working. at TMZ and being around there it's just another when you talk about having to exist in white spaces and talk to them like that's not there's no like metal for that like everybody does that like every black

person that I know does that every single word like we work out here everybody does that so I'm sitting down and I'm listening to it I'm thinking about the time frame in which some of these things are happening and I'm thinking about some of the stuff that's going on and I'm like

Like, yo, can we afford to like continue to make them feel like it's okay? Like, just wake up and understand what's going on. It's just going to be okay. No. Stop fucking with us. Like, for real. Or it's going to be some shit in the most polite way. In the most polite way.

Well, Matthew McConaughey, well, when will Black Lives Matter? When will it stop being about? Black Lives Matter. When they stop killing black people, answer to question. Like for right now, it has no. When they stop killing black people, like a whole conversation about policing, no qualified immunity, no discussion of training techniques, no, like no, none of that, like none of that. Like none of that. And so he's right about something. I don't feel better after the conversation. I don't. It did feel I don't know. I don't feel better after the conversation,

but only because it took a turn. I just felt like what I wanted to have is, you're right, you keep the same energy. We've discussed things that Emmanuel has said before on this podcast. And I thought that this was going to be an opportunity for you to express some of the things, me to express some of those things, us talk about it. I knew that I would probably be a little bit of a mediator in between,

because I've fallen between the middle of you guys. I didn't expect for it to be what is the attention. Because to me, the intention is clear. We don't agree. I think things that you've done have been the way I wouldn't do them. And let's discuss it. And you talk about why you've done those things. And I'm going to talk about my side.

And we could agree to disagree. That's where I thought this conversation was going to go. It got personal. That's why I don't feel good about the conversation. I don't think it got personal. You think it got personal? No, no, no. People took it personal. So maybe I should say it that way. He took it personally. Yeah. It took it personal. And I think that we, I never thought we would agree, but I thought it could be a way for you people to see different sides of the same conversation.

That's what is what I thought was going to happen. And it got a little too serious. Hmm. Mailback. Mail back time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to things. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. All right. First one is from Princess Tiff 84. They ask, what habit are you most proud of breaking? What habit are you most proud of starting?

I don't know. Look, you guys, we tried to give you mailback. Like, we tried to give you mail back. We're keyed up over here. We're, uh, I, I,

I, I, I, I, you know, it's, it's, it's,

last thing I say. It's, it seems so insurmountable. It just, it seems so hopeless sometimes. And, and, and,

um, and I'm not, doing any I'm not like all right man he said that the conversation was a waste of his time he's right

he's right I feel like culturally we don't have very much time to waste you do not have to go out and crack a cracker crack on white people to death you don't

that's not what I'm trying to do that's not what I do do but the era of taking shit and holding people's hands down the land to the rainbow bridge is over. Every time you grab white America's hand and you walk with them hand in hand to the promised land, they kill you on the way.

That's not hyperbole. That's just true. And it's, it's, it's, it's no one. person's fault. It's not fucking Matthew McCona Hay's fault.

It's not Roger Goodell's fault. But it's somebody's fault. And if we're going to take the time

to on all of these different platforms and all of these different microphones and all of these different shows to keep skipping

rope the same way, it's just and look, I spent a whole day watching Oh shit. And I got mad.

I lost it. I'll take a X and I'll like I'll calm down. I just wanted to know like what like what we doing out here. Like why would we make why would they need to feel better? Like why would they need to feel why would they? None of those conversations are uncomfortable. They be kicking it. No.

You know what's crazy? They probably were and that's what's even more sad. They probably were uncomfortable. And that's even worse. Not my finest. moment, I'll be the first one to admit it. I accept everything that comes with it. I am who I am. Rachel, I apologize.

Donnie, Ashley, I apologize. Should we end on a lighter note? Let's end on a positive note. Let's end on a positive note. Let's end on a positive note. Okay, because we don't want to, hold on. We don't want to make it. We started off on a positive.

We're going to end on a positive. So you might have seen us advertise this on social media. We've talked about it here on the podcast, but it's actually happening. So we told you all about the movie, you people. That movie comes out next week on Netflix, and we are going to do a screening, and we are going to do that screening in person next Friday, January 27. So what's going to happen is all the thought warriors, we're going to get together, we're going to watch the film, and we're going to have a conversation. Not an uncomfortable conversation, but we're going to have a conversation immediately following the movie. Space is extremely, extremely limited.

So we're going to let you know right now how you can hurry up and reserve your spot. I know some of you guys have already been hitting me up on social wanting to know how you can come. So you need to head to our pinned tweet for the registration link at Higher Learning on Twitter or the description. Or you can find it in the description on Instagram at Higher Learning. It's going to be in downtown L.A. Hopefully you guys can make it out. It's going to be at 4 p.m. Full details and instructions will be sent to all the confirmed guests.

I'm also going to post the registration link on my social as well. So we hope to see you guys there next Friday. We will have a different energy. But we will be ready to discuss you people. So you guys are ready. All right. I'll tell you think of how I'll stop learning. I am Van Lathan Jr.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.