Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Van’s ‘Obsession’ Obsession, ‘The Odyssey’ Wins, and the Life and Career of David Roberts

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Van and Rachel have a spoiler-filled discussion of the newly streaming film ‘Obsession,’ before reacting to the success of 'The Odyssey.' Then, controversy in the WNBA warrants an apology rating, the Tate brothers are arrested, the military’s testing testosterone, and Fox News is joking about sexual assault. Then, ESPN executive VP David Roberts joins to discuss his career and massive impact on the sports broadcasting industry. (0:00) Intro (14:57) SPOILERS: An ‘Obsession’ discussion (47:27) ‘The Odyssey’ success (58:37) Angel Reese and the “protected species” comment (1:13:36) Andrew and Tristan Tate’s arrest (1:21:48) Jesse Watters, Pete Hegseth, and testosterone (1:34:25) Dave Roberts joins the show (2:09:28) John Fetterman threatens to leave Democratic Party Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: David Roberts Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, y'all thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. Is I Van Lathen, Jr.? And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel, what did you do this weekend? I did a lot. Okay.

And I am tired. You know, I like to think that I'm, you know, I'm young at heart. Yeah. You're only as old as you feel. True. I felt all of 41 this whole weekend. So I did like a competition thing Thursday,

which I kind of talked about, like, you know, talking more about it later. Friday. Friday. Was still tired from the day before. Came here podcast, had some meetings, did some other stuff. When played kickball, Anna Malika Tubbs had her birthday, played kickball, super fun, love kickball. Where's it at?

You were supposed to be there? I might as well be your assistant. I thought about that too. I was like, I wonder if Vance was supposed to be here. It was really fun. It was at the park I'd never been there. It's right by the Holocaust Museum across from the Grove. Pan something maybe?

Pan Pacific Park. I'd never been there. Big park. Played kickball. A gigantic staple of the city. You know, You know, I'm sorry

Gigantic Park right in the middle of basically, yeah It's like I drive by there all the time I've never, the park is kind of hidden off the street

to be fair. Pan Pacific Park? Yeah, think about it It's right off Beverly. I know, but you don't see a park right there. You see like a recreation

center and a parking lot. You get to walk past it. Well, and on the other street the museum is there. On Beverly, you see the recreation center on if you're driving up third

Okay, you live over there too. If you're driving up third, there's just gigantic gigantic huge area right about next to the Grove. That's Pan Pacific Park. But why am I being pedantic about Pan Pacific Park? You didn't know the fucking part? You didn't know the fucking part.

That's what he does. But we played kickball. I said I was going to chill. Ended up coaching, pitching, being a cheerleader, all the things. I'm competitive, can't help it. So much fun. Great birthday idea.

A lot of people came out to support her. Then Saturday, Jomey had, we drove all the way to Carson. Carson to celebrate Jomey with family and friends, which was beautiful, really sweet. And then that night, Tracy, by Traciel, had her birthday. I saw her going crazy. She, as she should.

She turned 40, party bus, dinner, dancing. I had a party bus too. Me and Kalika did. And Molly. I remember that. It was just the girls. Party bus? We had a party bus at the, be Molly and Kalika in April.

We went karaoke. Oh, I heard about this party bus. Everybody was on party bus going back. Yeah, yeah. So Tracy did that. Great idea. Had so much fun. but I'm paying for it.

Like my voice is just a little horse. I'm tired. Yeah. But a good time. What'd you do? Other than not go to people's birthday parties. So I did go to a birthday party. I went to Jomi's birthday party.

Yes, you did. Jomey's entire family. Jomi turned 30. The love was palpable in the building. Saturday would Jomey again go to church on Saturday. And then... There's a church on Saturday? No, excuse me.

Sunday. Went to church on Sunday. first congregational church in Los Angeles great church, love the church, and then World Cup Final. You watched it out somewhere. Went right after to a place of Korea Town, watched a World Cup Final,

which almost threatened my love for soccer. I loved the game. It was phenomenally terrible to me. So you saw England should have been there? England should have been. You're talking about the Saturday game. No, I'm saying, do you think England should have been there.

No, no, no, no. I just think Argentina played from, and I'm not, well, no, you are, they'll give them, give them, give them, the, the, the, the caron at the bottom. I felt like Argentina, uh, Spain doesn't have like an incredibly crowd pleasing style. It's a ball control style. You can't get the ball from them.

You know what I mean? They, they dominate possession and just wear you down like a fucking Anaconda, but Argentina also kind of played the worst version of soccer that you could play for people watching soccer, football or whatever. They seemed like they played purposefully to have the game be nil-nil and try to win the game and it did feel like that. Do you think that was the strategy? It seems like, I mean, that's what everyone's saying.

I mean, I think it sounds good to say that that's what they did or just Spain was just dominating the game. It was, I like Spain, so it was fun for me to watch, to watch the way, gosh, they, I mean, dominating is the word, I guess I'll keep using, but the way that they were just like attacking the field and the way they worked so well together. Archiegena also did not have, which Jomey was around, Arjana also didn't have any shots on goal in regular time. But that's also because they weren't really pushing it to get that.

they were trying to lay back and really seemed like they were trying to push the end. Do you really think that? I think so. Let's call Jomey real quick. Because like what kind of, I know that they have won games at the last minute, but I can't imagine that their strategy was to lay back so much that Spain had 20 shots. Look, let's see. 20 shots and what, like 12 on the goal. Let's see what Jomey says.

Is Jomi here? Jomi, soccer, expert. Joan. Here it is. What's up? Happy birthday. You're on higher learning right now. Are you in? Okay.

What's up? You're not in the office, right? No. Okay. Do you feel like Argentina's strategy yesterday was to get the game to penalty kicks? Absolutely. 110%. Argentina do not have the wherewithal, the skill talent, nor could meet the level of the

Spanish players in yesterday's game. And so their only recourse really was, A. either Messi delivers an all-time moment for them, which he's done in the past, or we're going to kick you, we're going to hit you, and we've got to get it to 120 minutes so we can hopefully win on our penalties. That was their only recourse in last, yesterday's game. Jomey, hi. But like, that, hi, that actually worked out for them

because their goalie was just on fire. But isn't that a bad strategy? Because they had so many shots at the goal? had they made even two of them, that would have been, like, what would they have done then? Then they would have been on the attack? Then they, like, it just sounds like a terrible strategy.

They got lucky that none of those went in until the extra time. Rachel, you're absolutely correct. It is a bad game process. But here's the thing. It's worked for them, this entire tournament, right? The Cape Verde, the first game they played in the Round of 32, I mean, Cape Verde,

has impressed everybody the entire tournament. However, if you're Argentina, that's a team you're supposed to put away, right? They were number one of the world. Kvorede, if I recall, was like 67, something like that. That's the game you got to win in regular time. Egypt, folded.

Folded. They bottled it, Jummy. They bottled it. They absolutely bottled it. Okay? The next, the next, Switzerland, right? 1-1.

Switzerland gets a red card. They still have to go into action. time to beat a 10-men Switzerland team and then England in the semifinals just completely capitulated under the immense pressure of being up

1-0. Tuchel, disaster class in coaching, right? So you could make the argument that frankly they shouldn't have been there on Sunday that they got, I don't want to say lucky, but things fell their way. Again, Cape Verde, Switzerland,

Egypt on their way to the semi-final. It's a team that when you watch the, if you just look and say, oh, it's message, Argentina, number one, overall. Okay, yeah, why would they be the final? But if you look at how they played and who they played, you'd be frankly disgusted at the fact that they were there often. I tell you what they still got, though, Jomey. What? What they still got in Argentina, even though they lost the World Cup, they still got something that's awesome. You know what I'm talking about?

Is it like crazy high inflation? Nah. They got them big nigger burgers, man. They got them big nigger burgers, man. Shout out to Argentina and the big nigger burgers. What does that mean? What you mean was it mean? Jomi, tell Rachel what that means.

Oh, so there is this a restaurant chain in Argentina. I don't know a chain, but there's definitely a restaurant in Argentina called, and I know my mom is going to listen to this, so I'm just calling it what it is, okay? Big nigger burger. No. And the burgers are black.

No. The buns are black. It's called Big nigger burger. Why have we not talked about this? I'm telling you, I'm trying to put you on it right now. Big nigger burgers. And they spell it nigger. Yeah.

What the fuck you think? Well, it's Argentina. They could have put a hard ER on it. Oh, you thought it was a big nigger burger. Yeah. I thought that's how you were saying it. That would have been actually, you know, more G. But so, so it doesn't matter that Argentina lost the World Cup.

And the buns are black. The buns are black. They got a big nigger burger in Argentina. Look, I got to be honest with y'all. So me and Joel was going back and forth on, on tailgate. And I was basically telling Joel that's very rich a lot of times when Americans, like, accuse other countries of racism, right? It just is because so much of the fundamental.

racism technology, at least of the modern age, was invented right here. You know, we could, we could say that we're the whole ball of wax as far as that concern. But you can't get Big Nigger Burger going in the miracle right now. You just got to give it, you got to give it up. You can't give Big Nigger Burger going right now. You're not going to be able to have. Are there any outside of Argentina?

I mean, I don't know. But like, what I'm saying is Argentina got Big Nigger Burger going and they got a Instagram page. Like they don't. 50,000 people follow the Instagram. To Joe's point. if I know. Listen, again, America, I mean, we didn't event racism,

but we kind of, you know, we didn't invent it, but we, you know, yeah, man. You know, however,

Argentinian racism is different. You look at all the South American teams. You look at all the South American teams. They all got, Brazil, like, they all got, you know,

dark-skinned folks. You look at the Argentine team. That's a white team. White team, Italians. White team. Big, nigger. Burgas,

the fuck I'm talking about. All right. Well, thank you, Jomey. Thank you for soccer corner. Rachel didn't know about it. I'm upset that we are just now getting Jomi's input because that was phenomenal Jomey. That was fantastic.

I do what I can. Do what I can. Thank you guys. All right. See you, Jum. I'm looking at Big Big Nigger Burger's Instagram. Try to see if I know anybody that follows it. No.

But then I looked at who they're following. Pretty much all white people. Who they're following? Michael B. Jordan. Big nigger Burger follows Michael B. Jordan? Michael don't know that. Of course he doesn't know that. Of course he thinks he knows the

he's got millions of followers. No, that's not an indictment on him. I'm just, they have no shame is the point. I am shook. I mean, that's been a conversation too with, let me just round this out. I did enjoy watching the game. I was hoping Spain would win.

I got nervous towards the end when I saw what Argentina was doing and what they have done to Jomey's point throughout the World Cup and I thought it would be such a shame for Spain to be on such a role even outside of the World Cup and lose this game.

So I was happy to see them win. Conversation though on social media, a lot of black people were cheering for Spain because of all the information. But as one person said it, it's like, I mean, I never thought I would be rooting for Christopher Columbus

over, you know, all the things that happened in Argentina. It's everywhere. Pick it, like, pick the lesser of two evils, I guess. I don't know. Whatever gets you going as far as what you're rooting for, but there's no purity in it. So just root for whoever you want to root for.

I wish we would have covered this last. I'm not going to stop thinking about big nigger burgers. Big nigger burgers, yeah. I can't believe you haven't brought this on a podcast before. Big nigger burgers, man. With black buns? Black buns, bro. They got an ambassador for that.

Let me go to the web. Let's see, Big nigger burger. Look, look, big nigger. Burger. What? Its location is Diego Gibson 382. It's in Buenos Aires.

Their signature burger is the big nigger. No, what is it? What is it? That's the burger. The signature burger is the big nigger. And it has you know,

240 grand beef patty, cheddar bacon, red onion, and big sauce. So yeah, Big Nigger Burger. Like everybody, you start big nigger.

And then people there have been food people that have apparently gone there food bloggers that have gone there and talked about that they've gone to this guy named Harry Jaggart he said that he found the best burger in Argentina the big nigger burger so he says it's the best burger in Argentina his name is at Harry Jaggard

he says that's the best burger in Argentina the big nigger burger so fuck him now I don't know if he was trying to go go viral. Let me watch the whole thing. Oh, he says he can't say the name of it here. I'm watching it.

But he's talking to Argentines and they're saying they're getting the big nigger burger here. And it's like when you look at the big nigger burger here, they got like graffiti inside there and the whole nine, this lady here. She's selling it. Now, let me ask you this. Is it okay to eat the big nigger burger if you don't order the big nigger burger

if you don't order the big nigger burger if you just because what they don't write. No, you're contributing to the big nigger. They're dancing. Ownership. Yeah, they're twerking. He's twerking. This guy Harry is twerking.

And they got nigger written on the burger. Like, what do you mean? Because he ordered. I know I'm saying that you think that I'm... He ordered a big nigger, so they have to put on the burger rapping nigger. So people will know which burger. I've got to which person.

Niggerberg. I've had enough. It's enough. Mood's set for the podcast. Let's go. I also watched obsession and then got in trouble on Twitter. Wait, what did you write about it on Twitter? They didn't write anything on it about Twitter.

Like, at first. Why did it take you so long to see it? I saw it, but I fell asleep. You saw it at home, though. No, no, no, no. So I went to the movies to see it. Wow. But it was a part of this whole thing that we were doing, a bunch of movies.

And I went in, I was going in back and forth. I just literally I was kind of checking boxes and I fell asleep on large portions of it enough to see some of the scary parts but I watched it twice this weekend. You liked it? Actually I did kind of the same thing with backrooms I need to re-spend backrooms as well.

So I really was excited about backrooms but a lot of people didn't like it. I mean backrooms is like I see it but like I see these movies and I'm not paying attention a lot of times like I have to see a lot of movies screen I don't understand how Sean and Amanda do it I see a lot of movies and screenings sometimes

and the movies if I'm not podcasting on the movie but there's a screening for or sometimes I'll just be like in and out of it, whatever. See, and that's why I'm not a big movie watcher. Why? Because I'm very much so the same way. It's like hard to keep my attention. Like I'm thinking about stuff.

I'm also like overextending myself probably. You are 100% on it. But I'll say this. I thought the movie was a really interesting, just in watching it twice. I thought the movie was really super, super, super interesting. Like ridiculously. I don't know that I've been as taken by a film

and like what a film is trying to say in a very long time. Really? Okay, so which like the, a lot of people, and if you haven't seen it, sorry, spoiler alert, but it's not really, it's not really, I feel like you can really spoil this movie. I think it kind of is what it is. It's just more of like the direction the movie takes

and the decisions that are made where's where the conversation comes in. but who did you think was at fault? Like who did you think was a victim? Well, clearly bear, right? Okay. So Bear is at fault. But even the character of Bear is interesting

in the way that he's at fault because it's a new way to look at the person that's at fault in a movie. The first thing I did, my snap reaction to the movie was that the movie is deeply interested in just nihilism. Just the chaos of actual being. And I have reasons to believe that that I'll talk about a little bit later. So when I first went to Twitter, I go, hey, do you guys really think that Bear was the villain of obsession?

And everybody is like, of course he's the villain of obsession. He took away of free will. It's obviously a part where, like, he has sex with her. And when you see him having sex with her after he pretty much knows that she's under the capture of this spell, then now bears in on it. But like... She tells him what she wants and he still ignores it. When? She says, kill me.

Yeah. And he, so that's what I mean, like, he's still. allowing her not to make decisions and he's making them for her. Well, consider that though. That's an actual awesome scene to consider, right? So if you consider obsession, what would be the easiest way

like an obsession for Bear to break the spell? The one that makes Bear to clear, in a true morality tale. Like a Savior. What would make him a savior do you mean? So even in that, right? So she's talking to him while he's sleep. And she says, kill me, please.

Well, he has to kill her. So that's, so if Bear then kills her in that situation, like he's still not the hero of the movie. He's still not even, he's still acting on behalf. He's taking her life. Well, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't at this point, because of the wish. Which is interesting, right? Because morality tales prior to that do some different things.

If we take, like, you ever see thinner? No. So thinner is a movie. It's based on a, book or maybe a short story by Stephen King, what happens in this is that there's a guy and he's a overweight guy and he's like a

just fucking asshole, right? It's like just asshole, dickhead, whatever. And he gets in a car accident where he hits a lady who is a gypsy. I know you're not supposed to say gypsy anymore, but I can't remember what you're, a new age traveler, put you like that, New Age traveler.

So he kills a lady with his car. He hits her with his car, he kills her. when he was driving I think that he was like getting a blowjob from someone Spilwasis I've seen this maybe he's like cheating on his wife or something like that but he's like or maybe he was eating a hot dog

he's a big fucking asshole guy right so he gets cursed I curse you dinner the woman says so he's gonna lose weight the woman who dies no another another lady who's basically a witch that like the whole deal is he's trying to get over

on it's been a while since I've seen dinner anyway he gets cursed right um and then he's gonna lose weight until he passed away at first it's like he's like oh my god it's like oh i'm losing weight he's eat whatever i want it's good but then obviously starts to go bad he seeks out this woman again and she says um uh in order for you to get rid of the curse i have to bake a pie put the curse in the pie you have to serve the pie to somebody else and so you pass the curse on But then she says to him, very clearly, she says to him, she goes, but it's your curse. So why don't you just die? It's your curse.

Like the curse will die with you don't have to pass the curse. It's your curse. Why don't you just die? So he has all the information and he makes a decision. I personally feel like obsession goes out of its way to keep bear confused. To keep bear shitty and cowardly, but also to keep him confused. or to make the stakes for what he has to do so large that like... Doesn't he have to kill himself?

Well... That'll break everything, right? Right. Okay. So is... I mean, what's he confused about? He's confused about whether or not he wants to continue living. Well, it's, yes, but it's not confusing what he has to do.

I'm not saying it's not hard to make the decision to, that you have to end your... your life, but I'm saying it is... Well, it's existential. It's more of my point. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So the movie, and that's what I think the movie is really interesting. It's existential more than anything. Because, like, okay, so he has to kill himself.

Now, let's say that in past versions of this, you know what they would have done? They would have just said to bear, they would have been like, if you break up with her, if you break the relationship off, the spells, it's over. Right. And then the morality is like squarely shifted back to him. Because you can make the decision about whether or not he wants a slave or whether or not he wants her to be free. The movie subverts that expectation almost on purpose. There is a conversation between Bear and the guy from the One Wish Willow Company.

Yeah. Do you remember how that conversation went? Yeah. Okay, so Bear says he calls the guy on the back of the One Wish Willow box. And when he's talking to him, he says, okay, I would like to slightly alter the wish. He still wants Nikki, right? And the guy goes, you can't do that.

He goes, okay, just cancel the whole thing. He goes, just cancel the whole wish. Cancel the whole wish. And the guy goes, you can't do that either. So the whole time, this guy's actually fucking with him. Yeah, like there's only one option, but he's not telling him that. Right. And then you know what the guy says?

And nobody remembers this when I'm arguing about this movie. the guy tells bear he goes you kind of have a moral obligation to be there for her yeah i don't remember yeah the guy the dude from the one-wish willow thing says well it sounds like to me that you kind of have a moral obligation to be there for her if you're not going to die and you're not going to kill her the only other thing you do it seems like you have a moral obligation to be there for and then he goes do you want to talk to her yeah and and she's screaming in the background. Now, a lot of people go, I mean, Bear is certainly a coward, right?

Like a gigantic coward. And a lot of people go, he should have wanted to speak to her right there. But at that point, I don't really feel like that's analyzing the scene correctly because by that point, number one, he's been jerked around by this guy. This guy's actively fucking with him. And then by the time she gets on the thing, she's like screaming and wailing. Yeah, and he's a coward. And he's afraid.

Yeah, he was never going to talk to her like that. And almost in every single situation. where he would get the opportunity to be like super clearheaded and make a decision either he doesn't have all the information or he's scared. And that to me is the movie. He is like,

that to me is the movie commenting on the, the folly of today's male and the weakness of, weakness of today's mail and how meeting the moment of actually being decent takes courage. Like it takes courage to actually be decent, right? It takes courage because sometimes being decent is taking a loss. And sometimes the decent thing to do requires bravery. It requires bravery to do that. And everybody that was making that observation, I think is right in making that observation. This is like a lot of stuff in the movie though. There's like a lot of stuff in

the movie specifically around that character. Because even though this is a, the movie takes Nikki's free will out of the movie so early, there's almost not as much to talk about with her. I mean, there is talking about the way, the dynamic of relationships, the way he wanted to control it, the way he wanted, the fact that he was a coward, he couldn't just talk to her and have a conversation with her and express how he felt about her. He'd rather take the easy way out. So I think that there's that theme as well of if you're talking about current times and taking shortcuts, not just in relationships, but just in life in general, people want, don't want to work hard for something.

Or they're afraid of getting, oh my gosh, what is the word, denied over something. So rejected, thank you. They would rather take the easy way out, even if it's, and we see him do that from the very beginning. That's actually not true. Oh, okay. What's not true? That he took the easy way out? He actually didn't, though.

Why? So the first thing that you see from bear in the movie is effort. He's rehearsing what he's going to say to her. And he's running it by all of his friends. He's, well, actually, that's the first thing you see, and this is another really interesting choice. What's the first thing that happened to bear in the movie? He's sitting down. You can't see who he's talking to, but he's like pouring his heart out.

Okay, cool. And then what's the next thing that happens after that? The friend laughs at him. No, no, no. His cat dies. Oh, you believe. Next scene. Next scene. Sorry. Sorry. Next scene. Okay. So the first thing you see from Bear is him attempting to, he's putting a lot of effort into this entire thing. He's putting a lot of thought into it. And he's talking to his friend about it.

His friend, who he also doesn't know, is already sleeping with this girl. Right. But remember, he's talking to two friends. And the woman tells him, because remember, he's practicing to another woman. Yeah, but she's not a friend. She's just works at the diner. but not a friend but that woman says that was amazing she's trying to tell him how great it is and the other friend is like that's awful

and the reason why he's saying that right right right we know that he actually tells we learn that at the end though but he actually tells him that guy that's why that's important he actually tells Bear

to nag her right he bear think about the way the movie is set up like the movie starts and Bear is trying to be honest and forthcoming and real. His friend is actually encouraging him to neg her. His friend is the one that's saying,

call her freaky Nikki. His friend is the one to say, hey, you got to be mean to girls. His friend is the one that's telling bear all of this stuff. And you think he's just your garden variety, like Andrew Tate, hyper, but he's actually somebody that's leading him astray purposefully because he's sleeping with Nikki.

Right. But Bear doesn't know that. Bear is just, would rather listen to him and to even though, because you see that Bear is questioning that. Like, he's kind of like, that doesn't make sense. She hates that name. Why would I call her that? And rather than listening to the woman, he listens to his friend. That's not what he does.

Yes, the woman's telling him how great it is. But that's not what happens, though. That's not how you interpret it. No, no, no, no, no. The bear, like, like, Ian tells Bear do not try to get with Nikki at trivia night. Yes. And Bear still tries to get with Nikki at trivia night. Like they go up to the bar.

Yes. They go up to the bar. And every time Bear is about to tell Nikki how he feels about her, something happens. He's about to tell Nikki how he feels about her. Go back and watch the scene. Right. But after that, they are by themselves and he still doesn't say anything. Or he does the freaking Nikki.

Do you hear me out? So he's about to tell Nikki what's happening. Ian pops up. He's about to tell Nikki. how he feels, Sarah pops up. Literally the whole scene is going back and forth. He's about to say it. He's about to do it.

And the entire thing is going wrong because somebody keeps interrupting what he is going to say. Until they didn't. Right. When he goes, then when he's leaving and they're about to, they're about to like,

he's taking her home, right? He's taking her home. There's one scene and I think Curry Barker is genius just not forgiving this to the audience. they're going back and forth he does the freaking Nikki thing. She comes back

before this. Their relationship is actually based on a long mutual understanding of each other which I think also people got wrong about the movie. One person said when Bear compliments Nikki

one person on Twitter said he always just talks about how beautiful she is and never anything more. That's not true. Yeah, that's not true. They talk. and they go, hey, when I first move here, like you were the only person that was nice to me.

You were the only person that would talk to me. Like, his love for her is actually based in something that's actually more than, like, how she looks. It's actually based in the fact that, like, he feels like there's some kind of bond between them and that she's seen him, like, for whatever. When he is about to tell her how he feels, she comes up to him and goes,

hey, yo, if you like me, just like tell me right now. The way that she said that was scare almost anyone that was in that situation. But if you remember before she said that, the reason that she said all of that is because he was in the car, there was a moment to say something. She gets out the car and comes back, if I recall, and then says that. She gets out the car and comes back. So there's still a moment. What I find interesting is everything that you just said about Bear makes him so, like you

feel sorry for him, before he makes the wish and you just. see what's all it's going to happen. You feel sorry for him. You're kind of rooting for him. You, you see him. He's a very likable character. He just wants to connect with this person that he, to your point, I got, it's more than just what she looks like. It's the way that he feels like they're connected and all of that. And so like, and you know, he's kind of like not nerdy, but just not the other guy, right? And so you're, you want that for him. And then he makes that wish. and that wish, the way he words it, doesn't reflect the way you were feeling,

at least for me, prior to that moment. What did he say when he made a question? I don't know a word for word, but the wish was like, it was an obsessive wish. It wasn't that I wish that we would connect and that she would see, you know, that I like her. The way he was talking in the first scene. What he said in the first scene is not how he wished it.

The first scene where he is just wanting to tell her how he feels was heartfelt. and genuine and made the girl he was practicing with tear up. Mm-hmm. The wish I wanted to like me more than anything in the world, I wish Naked Freeman like me more than anything in the world. Yeah.

Wanted to anyone in the world. Yeah, it was one-sided, it was selfish, and it was a turn. It's like a total shift from who he was that we first met. Or maybe that was who he always was. We don't know. And I think that kind of thing is interesting. Because even when as she's not, she is everything

that you said, but it's not being reflected the way you thought it would. You thought, well, is he going to be that person that we met at the beginning or is he going to be that person who made the wish? And you see that back and forth until the very end throughout the whole thing. I think his character is just really, it's so good. So this is why I'll say about

that. His wish reflected the way he felt. So when he said he loves her more than anything in the world. Oh yeah. So his wish, his wish was for her to love him more than anything in the world.

Even something about the wish that's interesting. Another thing that kind of subverts the genre. Normally, when you get the wish casting, the wish itself is the litigation of the morality.

Because how does Barry get the one wish willow? So he's on the phone with her. Right, right. And he's actually trying to tell her on the phone again. Right? He's actually because... Because he's not going to come. And she's like, please come. And she says please come because she's about to like leave.

She's about to quit the music store. So and even in that, he was like where, well, he thought that first that maybe she wanted him to come because she had secret feelings for him. But then she goes, I'm about to quit the music store. I'm not going to be there. So would you please come? So whatever you're going to do, you probably need to drop it and come to tribute tonight. Right.

So he was going to tell it in it didn't happen. She drops her necklace down the thing. He then goes to the store to get her another necklace. This is all fantastic writing. Every single thing has a Y. Like amazing writing. So he goes to the thing to get the deal. In past movies, there's an old mystical person that goes, hey, you don't want that.

Yeah. And he goes, what? He's like, you don't want that. You actually don't want that. You see, this one wish willow, actually these come from the branches of a 50,000 year old tree in northern Africa that is planted and nurtured by these Igbo witches that have this mystical power or this is the first tree that granite wishes and then they show you back in the day Christopher Columbus making a wish and then the Colombian exchange happened they

go through a long way to let you know that this is a power that you do not want to be fucking with this movie does not do that and as a matter of fact it does the other thing It makes the people working at the store slightly incompetent. The girl is on her phone, right? The girl is on her phone when Bear is trying to talk to her. And then when he is, when he goes to buy the one wish willow, he's actually asking her. He's like, why is it fucked up or something like that? Because of what she says.

Yeah. Well, she says, hey, just don't come back here, whatever. He goes, why? He's actually asking. And she says people come back and want to return it. Right, but she never, ever says, ever, ever gives any type of inkling that this is going to be the kind of deal that it is. Never. He's actually asking, almost, the movie is almost daring us to have that moment.

But once he has all the information, once a character has all the information, what they normally do is put what they want above the warning and therein lies the morality. They're in lies to morality. you put what you wanted personally above somebody telling you hey don't do this don't fuck with this even after the wish is made another indictment on modern culture after the wish is made and he goes

the first night and he goes to look up the thing the reviews of the thing are so mixed it's like trying to decide which restaurant you're going to go to it's like people tell you this restaurant is good and you go to get a consensus but the movie is not interested in consensus the movie is not interested in consensus

It's interesting in who is going to have enough gumption to stop this terrible thing from happening. And nobody in the movie kind of does. All of these characters are lying to each other. Except for Sarah. Well, she kind of was. Because she didn't tell them that they were sleeping with each other and she knew before. Well, she knew that. Yeah.

She also is really kind. She likes them. She likes them. So if he is, if that's a hanging offense for him, then it's a hanging offense for her. She didn't take anybody's free will by casting them until she didn't. do any of that with the one wish willow. I don't think she was to that point. She was going to Luther.

But I think that the movie is actually, the reason why the movie terrified me so much is because I think the movie actually has something more frightening to say. What? So there's a scene in the film. Because all the rest of this stuff, it's clear that bears selfishness and all of that stuff get ratcheted up

as he sees this woman go through all of this. this thing. For whatever reason, he feels that he needs to double and triple down or whatever toxic shit this is as clearly her soul is in peril

and he doesn't have the gumption to stop it. And like that's legitimately the people that we're sharing our community with, it's like commentary on that. Bears about to leave, right? And he's not going to bring Nikki with him.

She runs back in and she grabs a knife and she stands there. Do you remember what she tells him? She stands there and she goes, go ahead and leave and I'll be in the other room and I'll just slip away. First my hands will feel like they're made of sand then the rest of my body will feel that way.

Spread across my whole body. I'll get colder than a refrigerator and she describes the transition from living to dead. And then she says it's actually not that big of a deal. You think that you see black. You don't see black because black is a color. You just see nothing. It's kind of beautiful is the way she describes it.

At the end of this movie, like at the end of this movie, the person in the worst situation is her because she is the one that is still alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The three of them are gone. Like Ian's gone. Sarah's gone. even bear is gone. To me, this movie has actually said

that they've been delivered. But do you see the person that is going to exist on and have to negotiate and deal with every single thing that's happened? It's Nikki. Nikki has now wears the scars of life on her.

Her face is messed up. She's changed her complete body. All of that stuff. Nikki's going to prison. Yeah. Because she's like, she's like, she's like, She's killed three of her friends, basically.

They're going to blame her for bear. They're going to get it for Sarah. They're going to get it for Ian. So, like, the movie is kind of this descent into existential dread because all of this stuff that's happening is kind of happening just from the weird sort of carnage of being around, of actually being alive. and the people that get to exit that get to exit it in these ridiculously violent ways

but the person that's left with everything is the only person that can still perceive like she legitimately comes back to life you see it at the end of the movie he dies and she goes and then she looks around and this is what all that that's all of she's screaming and this is what we're left with and then the movie actually ends

with snow on the television to me which is once again kind of connecting the audience to that because everything that happens is so chaotic and it's it's all with intention but it's not clear the intention last thing i'll say i'm really obsessed with this movie i might watch it again even though it freaked me out last thing i'll say is ian makes a wish and if the movie was consistent or if it was interested in being consistent which is not, which also makes it fascinating. If the movie was interested in being consistent,

the billion dollars would have fallen on top of Ian's head and killed him. But it didn't. He goes like, at this point, bears seen it. It's too much. Okay, just make the wish. The movie knows that there's an out. There's another one which Willow, again, breathtaking decision. It's playing with you.

When he goes back into the store, he goes, I don't know what you're talking about. There's no one which Willow. A trope. Barry Barker is a genius because if he goes in there, it's like, we never had one with Willows. I don't know what that is. Then we're like, what the fuck just happened. And that's what we normally see.

That's what you normally see. But the guy goes, no, I'm just fucking with you. Yeah, there's one more. And then the guy, once again, is an asshole. There are warnings all over the box. We don't, in society, read and heed warnings anymore. We don't read anymore. We don't read and heed warnings anymore.

We want quick gratification on things. Right. So he gets the one with Willow. He tries to make another wish. it won't let him. He gives it to Ian. Ian makes the wish. The money starts flowing right away.

If the movie was really this evil wishmaster situation, that money falls on top of Ian, and that's Ian's death. It doesn't want that. It wants Nikki to kill Ian. It wants Nikki to kill Ian because it wants Ian's death to be completely unceremonious, and it doesn't want you to be able to say

that the one wish willow is good or evil. Because a wish isn't good. good or evil. It's just a wish. And that that's it, that would be an out. It's the person. It's the intention behind the wish. If the wish isn't good or evil, which you're right, it's the person who makes the wish that you determine is good or evil. But what if it's not even that? What if sometimes it goes right and sometimes it goes wrong? Because that's life. Because if you look at the, if you look at the reviews for the one wish willow. Yeah. If you look at the reviews, reviews are saying sometimes it goes right sometimes it goes wrong but I think it's related to

I get you I just think that that falls back on the person you're right the person depending on how they make the wish right or wrong that could be true yeah yeah I'm not saying we're saying the same thing that could be true we can move on but I'm telling you I watched it and I first of all acquies if if there is a villain in obsession it bears the villain no doubt about it right because bear is the one that continuously fails himself and everyone else. However, I don't know if the movie is as invested into the villainy of bear. As it is with society. As it is just like, I don't know if the movie is as invested into his villainy because

it has so many times to make him a more active villain. It has so many times to make him to like legitimately go, okay, it has so many times. to make him to like legitimately go okay it has so many points in the movie where it can go even the part where like the whatever i don't have to keep going going back over it but and it just never does that because i think that what is actually interested in doing is just litigating the silliness of or the direness or the carnage of all of this like of the entire situation like the the whole deal and Like when I left it, when I left the movie, I felt like this deep emptiness.

I didn't, a morality tale ends with this is what you should have done. Or this is, this is, this is normally. You don't think that it ended with this is what should have happened? I think it ends, it does in that way. There's only one problem now. What is it? Is that bear, okay, last thing. There's only one problem.

There's another one which Willow. That second one which Willow is such a much. motherfucker. There's another one wish willa. So there's a way to undo all of it. If he gives the one wish will or the end and he gives the one wish to little he goes in, just wish

that none of this ever happened. Wish that I never made my wish. The next scene flashes back. We're back to the beginning of the deal and everything's cool. The movie actually teases you with the fact it's teasing you by saying we can undo this right now.

But things are already so fucked up that that's impossible. Right. Like things are already so fucked up that that's impossible. Ian is also a fucked up character. Correct. Ian is a fucked up character because he likes the girl because he's been lying to his friend. There's no one that he can go to. Maybe he should try to go into Andy Richter's character.

There's no one that he could go to at this point and ask him to do that. All of his friends are kind of fucked up. they're kind of shitty and they're just shitty enough that they can't get a handle on this situation it would have been easy to be like hey, Bear, just to let you know how I know Nikki doesn't love you like this

I know because I've been sleeping with her for two years and that didn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen. So like to me when I look at the entire deal Curry Barker's been very clear in interviews that he wants you to see Bear as the reason that all of this stuff happened he's been very clear about that

but he also wants I feel like wants people to be clear at a certain point that it's that the real thing is that bear doesn't go to the eighth level to try to stop it that he never puts the brakes on it

I don't know I just like I never saw one like this before and I also think that it's also a reflection of a sort of greater nihilism that people feel I think that too in a movie in a more Christian world

we talked about this last time where there's this this like clear sense of right and wrong the Bible morality play and we've gone way too long on this I'm sorry guys I know and you didn't even want to talk about it first

but the Bible morality play is like a retelling of Adam and Eve where like God says don't eat the tree off the fruit Satan comes along and goes whatever whatever I think that this movie subverts that and I just thought it was brilliant because of that

I'm going to watch it again well it is good though. It really, really was good. And I love a movie when you leave it and you're having these kind of discussions immediately after it. That's not what I was expecting. And I don't really even think of it as a horror movie. It's not scary. It's horror, but it's horror, but

not scary. I was not scared. That bitch was terrifying. It was horror. I just wasn't scared. She was so scary. I've never seen a performance that good in the break our role. She was fantastic. Like, it's, well, that's not true. But like, she, uh, she was terrifying. And when she was jumping at him, walking backwards and all of that shit like that,

like which is hey she was just like whatever I loved it Barrow was a bitch ass nigga right all right all right we're out of here um no more five

no I'm just joking uh what's the what can we what can we go Donnie you take it away I mean I feel like a natural transition

since we are talking movies we could talk about the Odyssey oh yeah that wouldn't be a jarring turn so yeah let's talk about that Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey

over the weekend made $124 million from just under $4,000 domestic theaters over the weekend is one of the best reviewed films of the year. And this is all following very loud conservative criticism in the lead up to the film's opening, centering around casting of Travis Scott, Ellen Page, and Lupita Nguango for, you know, they were like, this is Greece.

These are black people. This is trans people. People were upset about casting as they typically are. You know, I haven't seen it. I know. I haven't seen that. I will see it. You guys got to tell you something right now.

If you haven't seen Christopher Nulles, you should go out and see it because it's a great film. Great film. Great film. It's great. But I tell you something. People are bending the knee. What do you mean?

Into who? The Odyssey made them bend the knee. The Odyssey made them bend the knee in the way I didn't think could still happen. Like Ben Shapiro had to go and call the Odyssey a fucking masterpiece and say Ben Shapiro, shout out to him.

I never thought I said that. Called Elliot Page by Elliot Page's name. Refused to dead name Elliot Page. Which is, I want to take my shout-out back because I shouldn't be doing that.

But at the same time, this, you know what really happened? What? During the last four years, these guys would do all of this stuff. And they kind of started to capture a little bit of, it almost became cool what they were doing. It almost became cool to be like, oh, I'm in for the R word.

Oh, I hate D.I. We almost did something that almost never happened, which was lose the cool battle to the racist and anti-gay people. It's always been in mainstream American culture more cool to be woke. it's always been more cool to, Marlon Brando was cool. Man, Marlon Brando was bisexual, but it's always been cool. Since when?

Well, I mean, to be honest with you, almost always, artists and entertainers and all of that stuff that are typically left people to the left, that's always been the coolest place to be. No, am I wrong about that? I mean, I'm saying how far are you trying to go back about being woke.

Well, I mean, what's right. Well, woke is, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, almost a theology that comes along with woke with the way woke was captured. What we meant was that we were just not asleep to all of the goddamn, we were conscious to all of the goddamn microaggressions and shit that we were dealing with. That's what woke, yeah, yeah, yeah. You mean more so like in entertainment, like people who were, like, spoke out rebellious, not historically, because I think that that's, that's where the line gets dropped. Well, I'm talking about historically, like, and we're talking about a movie. So in the movie space, like, historically. historically, they've always been conservative people, obviously like John Wayne was a huge

conservative and stuff like that. But the liberals were in places like Hollywood was full of liberals. New York was full of liberals. All this stuff was full of liberals and stuff like that with these liberal progressive values. All of these, if you go back and like, if you look at Gloria Steinem's house when the Black Panthers were like, there's a bunch of actors and all those people in there that are talking about this stuff. That stuff was always, and that started to erode a little bit in the last four or five years to me. It started to become a situation to where people got so, I guess, sick and tired

of whatever was going on that particularly these bro podcasts and all of this stuff, we almost started to lose that battle a little bit. It started to be something to where the cruel kids table came out that I think was the New Yorker, the Vanity Fair article,

where they're talking about this stuff. It started to be cool to be a racist and cool to be a homophole and cool it. You felt like the rebellious one to do that. You felt like you were the one that was rebellious. Yeah, like you felt like that was, it was actually rebellious to be like, I will say the N word.

But the Odyssey represents something. It's not the whole thing because, you know, Christopher Nolan has fascist messages in his movies. But the Odyssey made them bend the knee. The Odyssey made them say, say, hey, big nigger burgers. I don't want to eat them. And all of them, all the right wing people

that called for the movie to fail and they were going to do the same thing to this movie that they were going to do to everything else, they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. And it's a film that casts a black woman as Helen and Troy. Looking amazing. That cast a trans actor.

That cast all of these people. And yet and still, one of the biggest R-rated openings ever. It's a small, it's not a meaningful victory, but it is a victory. Okay. You don't think so. I mean. Damn it, Rachel, get on a positive thing.

I'm trying to look at what he said. I don't know how much of one of our readings in the past or what he said currently, but I don't know. Elon Musk was like... I know Elon Musk. I'm looking at Ben Shapiro because he made comments too. They were trying to defeat the movie and say that the movie,

was all of that and the movie was going to whatever whatever and now roundly roundly everybody had to come back and be like i saw the odyssey actually you actually seeing some of the write-ups from people it's like are we tired of calling everything woke like it's a small little victory so he said it was good he didn't are you saying he didn't particularly speak to the casting after he saw it well i think he spoke to the casting by actually not speaking to the casting I think he spoke to the casting. I think the decision, even in that to not dead name Elliot Page, was, was, I mean, that's an acceptance of Elliot Page's identity. Well, let's see where he goes from here.

I'm not saying that Ben Shapiro has changed or anything like that. No, you like him. He had a good moment for you. I'm saying that, no, I'm not talking about Ben Shapiro. I'm trying to macro this situation here, Charles King. You like it. And what I'm saying is the moment, so look, Ben Shapiro. So I know a lot of people were like, oh, my God, Lucia Niango is supposed to look like Diane Kruger.

I don't know, Diane Kruger doesn't look very Greek. She's German. Lupita Nyango is a beautiful woman. So I'm not saying that this is being demonstrated on Ben Shapiro's. I'm not saying this is anything great about him. I'm saying that we culturally can still make people bend the knee. which is very important if you're going to protect people. Okay.

Oh, man. See, man. Okay. I, is a, the Odyssey is a slight victory for woke is why I'm trying to say, y'all. I'm just very positive. Positive.

So you don't think. You think is everybody, they all had to eat their words, Rach, the movie did well. They all had to eat their words. Is there any, is, no?

I don't think that he thought the movie was going. to do bad because of it. I think that he thought he just did not like the fact that Lupido was Helen of Troy and he didn't like the fact that Elliot Page was cast. I don't think that they ever thought the movie would do. I don't think they obviously they went to see it. I don't think they discouraged people from seeing it. They just had to in line with their base and their thinking or their coolness as you pointed out had to point out these things as problematic, but they still went to see it. I don't think it's bending the knee. Maybe him, you must have not been up on the narrative before this.

Yeah, Matt Walsh and all them. The narrative before this was that this movie was going to tank. It was another woke piece of shit and don't go see it. They definitely said that. I mean, he also said, but people on the right were saying, oh, it's going to bomb because of that. He's talking about in reference to Elliot Page. No, the movie's not going to bomb because of that. That was his quote.

Right. So what I'm saying is in this particular situation, I'm just trying not to give him a thing. It's not about Ben Shapiro. That's why I always try to make it about something. It's not about it. Fuck. Hell, fuck him.

I actually refuse to do a CNN. You want to take it back. Because you started off this thing with a shoutout. I got to Ben, but it's not about it. That wasn't right. I was just, I thought it was important to give a shout out for not dead naming Elliot Page because I think it's very important to recognize people's humanity. But guess what, Ben Shapiro, you don't deserve no shout out.

Rachel's right. Fuck you, Van. Ben Shapiro, you're, fuck you. Fuck Ben Shapiro. No shoutouts for doing the bare minimum of humanity. I accept what Rachel's saying as true. All I was saying was in this situation, I'm going to chalk this up as a minor dub.

I'm going to choose victory in this situation. The Odyssey opened big. The movie was good. The movie made the choice to cast a black lady as Helen Leonard Troy to cast several black people. We're talking about LePy L'Eylingyango, but we haven't talked about Corey Hawkins, who was in this movie. We haven't talked about Zendaya who is in this movie.

The movie made the decision that John L.A. Guzamo is in this movie. Elliot Page is in this movie. This movie didn't care about Odysseus' crew, his soldiers. Like, how much Patel is in there? This movie didn't give a fuck about what nobody said about any of this stuff, and it still became a rousing success so much so that these scumbags had to go on Twitter and bend the knee. That's a minor Vic.

So the movie's really good. It is really good. Okay. I'm going to see it. I am. I'm going to go see it this. I'm going to go see it 70 millimeter. I'm going to try.

They got the Trojan horse outside citywalk. Oh, do they? Maybe I'll go see it there. Okay. So now for the next 30 minutes, Rachel will talk, and I will just go this night. I don't have anything else to have all. I've done too much. I'm trying to be better.

No, it's just, it's just movie. It's just movie stuff. No, no, I love obsession. Obsession was good. I think it's funny because I'm the one who was like, we should bring up obsession. And you were like, I don't know. And then look at you.

Well, you had some things you needed to get off, which it was, okay, it was a great movie. Donnie, take us to the next thing. Let's talk about Angel Reese. Oh, yeah, let's do that. The head coach of the WMBA's Toronto tempo, Sandy Brandello was suspended one game for what she called Angel Reese after a file in a recent game against the Atlanta Dream. Let's take a listen and see if we could make out exactly what she would later apologize for saying.

She rolled over. Sandy Brondello pleads her case. Carl Smesco has walked over closer to the officials. That was the clip? You couldn't hear it. You couldn't make it out? Oh, what she said? It's real in the background.

species. Oh, that's what she said. Okay, cool. She's talking to the refs, and she's yelling, and she's calling Angel Reese a protected species. Does Europe pinch, so she's been suspended for a game for what she said. She's come out and apologized. Donnie, do you have the apology? I do.

She said, Angel, I'm sorry. Last night in the emotion of the moment after Niaris injury, I used a phrase that I shouldn't have used, and I take full responsibility for that. My frustration was with the officiating, but my words unfairly put the focus on you. I also understand that my words carried an impact beyond what I intended, particularly for black women in our league. And I'm deeply sorry for that. I've spent my career competing with, coaching, and learning from incredible black women. I regret that my words caused hurt to a community. I respect so deeply.

I have a lot of respect for you as both a player and a person. And I sincerely apologize to you, your teammates, and the dream organization for my comment. So the question I think is like an intent versus impact thing because did you know protected species is an Australian sports idiom that's used? I learned it after this. You learned it after this. Same. So knowing that this is something that they say in Australia, two referees to show that you're showing favoritism to a particular player and they refer to those players as protected species. This coach is from Australia, played pro coach there for years.

Obviously, it's a term that is used quite a bit. Does the fact that that was the intent override the impact of calling a black woman in America a protected species? You're asking me? I am asking you. Uh-oh. What's the smile for? Oh, God. What?

What are you going to say? So in any rational world, yes. But in the world that we live in where we're expected to deal in daily irrationalities that come along with the condition of our being, then no. This is not unlike the situation that happened with Tyler, where where she's from, she is colored. And if you come over to America and you call a bunch and you tell people you're colored, we're going to be like, what the fuck you talk?

you're talking about. We live in an irrational situation. We would be able to step back and go, hey, she's using the jargon from where she's from. That jargon hurts us in a specific way, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we don't live in an irrational place. So you don't think that she should have been suspended.

Once you understood that her intent was to not say it, say you don't think she should be. I'm asking you. I'm saying that we're working towards a place where we could look at it with that type of context. But as for right now, we have to tell you how you're not going to talk about this. But I think that's what makes this all so interesting because it's the bigger conversation behind it

of this is a woman, yes, she's from Australia who played pro and coach, but that means you played basketball. You played professional. You played against other black women. Now you're a coach. You coach black women. You're in this country.

This isn't like some deep thing that's culturally known between black people. This is something that it is a very obvious You don't need to know much about the history of America to know black people's history here and calling someone a protected species here when black people have a history of being looked at as not human, not even being considered a fuel human, full human, how back in the day they used to use caricatures and cartoons to depict us as animals as species. When you think of a species, you think of a plant or an animal. A bug. A pest. Yes. I don't think that it takes that much to know or even understand that,

especially when you've been around black people. You play in a majority black sport. So I think that that's why I say the intent over, or the impact over the intent. Sorry, let me say this again. That's why I say the impact overweighs the intent here because thank you for teaching. us that this is an Australian sports idiom, don't really care because the intent is there.

If you're Angel Reese and she's spoken on it, like I can't even imagine hearing somebody call me a species, a protected species. I don't care that that's okay there. This is where you are right now. And it doesn't take much, as I said, to understand that. So the fact that she didn't mean it, it doesn't outweigh how it landed, how it made her feel, how it made her players feel, her staff feel, fans of the WNBA feel knowing that this is something that you put out there. And then if, let's just say, they put the intent over the impact and they say, well, where she's from, this is what's said. Then how does that look? How does that look on the WNBA that you're willing to excuse that? Does that open the door for that to be something that's used all the time under the

guise of, well, that's what they say in Australia. Oh, that's just something I picked up. It's got to stop. Like, she had to be suspended. She had to be reprimanded for it in order to stop it because of how much it lands toward and affects so many other people. Yeah. I completely agree with you. I think I'm less interested in whether or not the WNBA had to suspend her.

They clearly did because the WNBA has a responsibility to its players to continuously have conversations about their safety and not just their safety on the court, but their mental health. You have to do that. I think that there's maybe a larger conversation in both the Tyler situation and this situation about whether or not this person is either a racist or insensitive. And I think those conversations matter as well. I can't say that this woman is not a racist because she's white. So there's no way to know what's inside of her.

And also because of some historical realities about Australia and about the way Aboriginal people have been treated in Australia about their rights and what type of, it's a whole thing about Aboriginal people in Australia where they live, how they live, how they're dealt with by systems. It's the same song and dance wherever you go. Right. So I can't take. But I do think that when we.

we're talking about the intent, we're not even talking about what the WNBA did. If there is, if something happens just on a human level and there is more information that helps me get a greater understanding as to why you said something and why you did something, then I'm willing to listen to that when it comes to you. That don't mean that you don't have to go sit down. You do have to go sit down. Right, right. I more so was talking to you about the rational versus irrational part of it.

I agree with you when I first saw this. My immediately thought is, oh, she's racist. Then I get more context and I understand that this is a phrase that's used where she's from and particularly not just the country, just in this industry, in sports. So I'm like, okay, maybe she's not. But then I'm also like, I'll make space for that. But the fact that how many times have you used this against other players who aren't black? The fact that you chose to use this against Angel Reese,

coupled with the history that you just talked about with Australia, it makes me think of what made you look at her and want to say that? Are you on record saying it other times? I just don't know. So now I'm back in this place with, I don't know if you are if you aren't, but I will make space for there is some context to it that we weren't aware of before. But I don't think that we need to look at it from an irrational or rational. I think it is rational for us to say, okay, we understand that this is something that's particular to where you're from. But at the same, time, this is extremely problematic and it's a discussion that we should have. You and I both aren't the people who jump to like, you're a racist, this is racism. I think that that's more lowbrow

and I think that hinders understanding each other and bigger conversations that you can have that aren't just as simple as the words being used, but the context of it, the history of it, all of that. And I don't think if you're a person who wants things to change, you can't do that, you can't go to name calling and assuming certain things without looking at it in totality. And I think her being reprimanded was necessary, maybe a little bit more than one game,

but I think we also need to have conversations surrounding it. And I think that is all rational. No, you're missing me. What I'm saying about the rational and irrational is that if the world were a rational place, we would be able to, and I'm

just so people know, I'm, in complete understanding that it's not. If the world were a rational place where we were all able to investigate and interrogate people's intent to harm and not the actual harm that's done on accident

by people who have more societal, economic, or cultural power than us, if we weren't in, it is to me, irrational to be in, a perpetual fight for your own safety. That's irrational. Like society to a degree, civilization to a degree, is supposed to mitigate that.

Like the reason why, you know, if you are a fucking lion or if you are a fucking gazelle, yeah, part of your existence is always looking over your shoulder for the lion if you're a gazelle. Right. But that's because there's no rationality in that. There's not rationality.

The rationality or the law is survival of fittest. Survival of Fis, you eat what cannot run. You take fucking all the fucking shit and you put it in the middle of the weakest one, you put in the middle of the herd because you know if you don't do that, that the fucking tiger or the lion will attack.

But that's, we're supposed to not have that. We're not supposed to live like that. We're supposed to invent laws and cultural treaties and all of that stuff that keep that out of that. But we failed at that. We still do live in survival of the fitness. Maybe our nature is not as far from those animals as we think that it is. So that means that it can't even matter whether or not you were trying to be hurtful.

The only thing that matters now is we got to let you know you can't say that. So in another world, in a world that I, hey, you know, I was raised in this situation or I'll come from this place where they say this. And not one of the big ones, not big nigger or any of those stuff, but protected species. the real one that would bake your noodle, like the Oracle, is whether or not she's actually said that before and said that about like a white person. That's what I, yeah, that's what I say. And not even said it about a white person,

but if she had said it about a white person, would it even be news? So if she had said this and she was talking about, if she had said this and she was talking about Brianna Stewart, it wouldn't have been news. It might have been a quirk, but it probably wouldn't have been news because there's an irrational difference,

a disparity between the safety of Breonna Stewart and the safety of Angel Reese. And we have to negotiate that in everything that everybody say, in everything that people do, in every way that we act, there's no parity there. So my, my, my, my, me saying that like,

in any rational world, we would be able to take all of the information and go, okay, you didn't mean that. But we can't do that and we won't do that until we get the society to a more rational place which will never happen Yeah so so no I wasn't I wasn't saying that we were being irrational for being Mean about it I was just for not being mean about it for holding her to a standard about it I'm just saying that like It really Tyler's really Tyler's explanation makes sense

What was her explanation? That's how they talk where she from Like really that makes sense but it makes sense but it's also a you You can't say that here because we should know that better. You should know that I mean. People let you, yeah, like is the fact that you got to know better. Yeah. So it's weird. It's true.

Well, apology rating now. I mean, it was a good apology. It was a good apology. I can't. She said everything she needs to say. She didn't make excuses.

She could have easily been like, you know, that's what we say. And I've said it before. And I didn't mean, but I didn't mean to. Like, she took responsibility in the way, the best she could after this situation. So she gets a six. She bent the knee. She bent the knee.

That's what we need. She meant the knee. It matters. She got knocked to her knees, really. You guys, cultural power is sometimes about a Charles Oakley elbows. Like, you know, everybody does it. People only get mad when black people do that, by the way. Any other group of people that go, hey, don't, don't fucking talk to me like that.

Also, when she said it, didn't someone. get hurt? What you mean? When she was complaining to the refs about what happened with Angel, it was after an injury, right? Something that had gone on. Because I think that adds to the protect, using the phrase protected species, because I think Angel was involved with that, and it was almost as if you're like calling her an animal.

Yeah. You just can't, you can't, I mean, I don't, you guys, I'm just like saying it makes it even worse. Yeah, I'm trying to be, you know, you can't, you can't do that. Like, we start, we start. letting you guys get away with that. And before you know it, you know, we back in cages at King Leopold's house again.

But we can't, like, we can't, we, we can't let you. We're not doing that. Fuck it. And, you know, maybe at a certain point, we'll be able to kind of litigate these things more of what you meant to do. But we can't do that right now. All right. Let's talk about the Tate brothers.

Andrew and Tristan were arrested by U.S. Marshals on Saturday. After UK prosecutors said that they brought further rape and sex trafficking charges against. Britain's Crown Prosecution Service said the new charges relate to four further victims and were brought after authorities received evidence from Bedfreyshire Police in England. The charges include rape, assault, trafficking, and offenses relating to indecent images of a child and extreme pornography. Now, these charges brings the total number of alleged victims in the UK to seven. This is interesting to me because I'm interested in how much.

It's going to take for people who bought into the Andrew Tate thing to realize how stupid they were. Like what would have to happen? Because Andrew Tate is smart about this. Andrew Tate says, hey, like maybe because he knew what he was doing. A year ago, two years ago, he starts talking about the Matrix. The Matrix is going to take me down. The Matrix is going to kill me. So now the people that really believe in these Tateisms,

they're going to say this is just a matrix pushing back in them. And I'm always interested, particularly in figures like this, because Andrew Tate is essentially a cult leader. Very interested in cult leaders. I'm always interested in how indoctrinated people are. Like who is going to say this is a person who is a scam artist and someone who sold a lifestyle based upon your want for something that they are actually abusing people for, allegedly, and look at the litany of things. that they have them on, you don't want to be this person. Yeah.

That's what I'm, I'm never interested in like, figures will rise and figures will fall. Right. There's going to be the next hottest rapper. There's going to be the next political darling. I'm always interested in how people respond to this. Who are the rational people

that will be able to look at luminaries or other people that they thought had all of the answers? and be like, I need to make some decisions about my life for myself. Don't you think that a characteristic of falling into this from the beginning and choosing to follow this and believe this, you have to be irrational at some point? So it's almost like you're asking for something or maybe thinking something will happen

when it was never there in the first place. Like, you know what I mean? Clearly the Tate brothers, Andrew Tate in particular, were spewing out this rhetoric to justify or normalize what they were doing behind closed doors. They wanted it to make sense. So the people who follow them, for them to kind of not desensitize, I mean, it is desensitized, but almost as if an acceptance of making it okay based on this thinking that they were using to indoctrinate these people that were following them. There was, you had to be irrational from the beginning or desperate from the beginning.

seeking a certain community to make you feel powerful, putting others down, taking advantage of other people, allegedly assaulting them, like taking their humanity away from them, allegedly. You had to be okay with that or buy into that from the beginning. You know what I mean?

So why would it change? Because, so for me, I think that I am too into, I've read too much about the cult stuff. And so, Is there a through line? Sorry to not interrupt you, but people who leave Colts.

Is there a through line? Is there a common denominator as to why they choose to leave? And I'm asking that, is it because is the common denominator that the person goes down and so it all just crumbles or is there a feeling?

Is there a moment? Is there something that happens that usually causes people to break? So there's an ethical personality dichotomy that exists. There are certain people who join the cult because they believe that the person that is the head of the cult, even though that person always has to be charismatic, right, is the best conduit to an actual worldview.

And for that person, when that worldview shows inconsistencies, they will leave the cult. Okay. All right. Big picture person. But when the cult is about the person, they will never leave. because like if the cold is about the individual then anything that the individual does is right. Right, right.

Right. So, but there are people who join cults because they actually think that the world going in in 21 days and all of that stuff like that. Then when the world don't end in 21 days, they go, okay, I'm out. Now, it takes a very charismatic person. You still have to be an effective cult leader

because it takes a very charismatic person to make somebody believe some of this stuff because sometimes it's so far off the beaten path. But for those people, when it's broken, it's broken. The trust is gone because they're true believers in the grand scheme of things. But when it's about the person, it's very difficult to get the people away. It's very difficult to get the people like extracted from that person because they believe they trust that person in a real way. And the reason why I am interested in this is because we've talked about it already, I see traces of it everywhere.

I see people that go, oh, this must be right because this person said it and I trust this person. And there's not one fucking celebrity that we've given a slight bit of critique. The smallest degree of critique, the Barack Obama George Washington thing. Barack Obama is the best of us van,

blah, blah, blah, looking for reasons to kind of make that work, right? And it's not the worst thing in the world, But I was kind of understanding. I'm saying that Barack Obama is a co-leader, by the way, ha-ha. I'm saying that I didn't say that, so you can't clip that. But what I'm saying is in this situation, in situations like this, I think that most people, most people, particularly now,

have the capability to be overwhelmed by someone's cult of personality. Do you think that's because people are getting further away from religion? We talked about that. little bit, yes, and they're choosing new religions. The Manosphere is a religion. You could argue that woke is a religion. To a degree. To a degree. Not A.

To a degree. The Manusphere is a religion. Woke is a religion. Maga is a religion. The far left is a religion. The sinner is a religion. All of these things that are actually making people fight daily, holy wars. Like every single day, there's jargon, there are ways to worship, their proper ways to be, their bad ways to be, their heretics, their prophets, all of these things, it's all religion. I'd argue social media is a religion. Yeah, social media is the church for the religion.

Yeah. Social media is where people go to worship, where they tell you you can't, if you're not dressed, you can't come here, where they litigate the rules of the religion and all of that stuff. And that's where you have different preachers and leaders that pop up. Right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so to me, I'm always, because even when. when Jimmy Swagger got caught up the first time.

Hey man the first time he got caught up, a lot of people stayed. But when that second tower hit, when that next one happened, people were like, we got, we can't fuck with it no more, Jimmy. Jimmy got some things. Jimmy went to the well a couple of times. Right. So I don't know. I'm always interested in to see this because there are a lot of people who've made their

reputation believing in Andrew Tate. Yeah. And it seems like the Tate brothers aren't some real trouble. All right. What else, Donnie? What the fuck else is going on? What the hell is happening? There's some Fox News stuff. As defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, he's rolling out a mandatory hormone testing for troops promoting high testosterone counts, high T counts. Critics are accusing Fox News host Jesse Waters of trivializing sexual assault in this exchange. He says you lose your endurance, muscle mass. So yeah, I want these guys on it. But you know what's going to happen? The guys that don't need it are going to take it to. triple boost. Right.

And then they're going to get out there. And women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls women in Asia. You better be careful because these guys are going to be wild animals and you better watch out. You should have held his hand. Yeah, but I don't know if I would have. Oh, Dana.

She's against it. But that's all she could say. He went too far even for her. Who is that? What's your name? Dana. That's what they just said. Dana from Fox.

Let's see what they did. Dana, Dana knew, as Jesse typically does, crossed the line. Dana Perino. It would have been great if she would have called out why. I mean, Jesse was waiting for the laughter. The laughter never came. Well, he took it too far. He's making a joke about sexual assault.

And then these are the same people at the same time who will say, you know, women are exaggerating or women this, like blame, But like you're literally making a joke about what would happen if testosterone levels increase and relating that to and specifically calling out Asia. So Asian women talking about you better watch out. These men are going to be on a terror basically admitting that that's something that does and can happen. I mean, look. Also, the testosterone thing is hilarious to me. I'm sorry that the head sex.

Hexeth is going to test everybody. It's going to be an option. It's not mandatory. But if you have low testosterone, he's like, you're out? No, he wants you to take testosterone, which is like becoming a common thing. I know a lot of people that are on testosterone,

both men and women. And that's also not necessarily. You know how expensive that is for you to do safely? PEDHXF doesn't care. Money doesn't mean anything to them. But that, it will mean any, do you understand, does anybody understand, like, just how expensive it would be? Because if you start taking, I'm not talking about you taking some kind of testosterone replacement.

I'm not talking about that. But if you started like, if you start doing like TRT, like testosterone replacement therapy, then you got to get your blood work done every like three months. You got to come in for all kinds of scans because there's stuff in your body that the testosterone will grow. If you have tumors and stuff inside of your body, the testosterone will grow those tumors. It would like, it's like a, it's a cancer booster almost. So any, so if we're, just from a cost standpoint, if we're having a bunch of soldiers that are taking TRT because they want to be younger or whatever, are doing TRT,

then along with that, we're going to have to give them all of this other supplemental medical shit that's going to be very, very expensive. Does anyone even talk about that? I haven't even talked about that. No, it's just, no, they haven't talked about that, but you're not. wrong in what you're saying it's just also just it just plays into I mean like this is like some Andrew Tate type stuff this like plays into like the manosphere thinking that oh you have low testosterone oh that makes you less less of a man here's an option all you have to do is start doing

testosterone testing and replacement theory and this will make you bet this will this will this will make you more manly this will make you better for war should we go into it's just it's like so What's the word I'm trying to use? Pathetic. Great. It's so pathetic. Yeah. Like, I just, every, anything, anytime there's a headline about Pete Heggseth and something that he is doing to boost up the manliness or the religious aspect of the department of war, it's just like, what are you?

He's such a joke, which I was about to say something. Actually, I'm not going to say that. But he's just, no, no, no, no, no. He's such a joke. But just, I mean, the bigger issue. here is not even just that he's taking testosterone, having these men test and have the option of taking testosterone, which seems really irresponsible to your point. Low testosterone could mean that there's a deeper issue there.

Are you going to do the testing for that? It's not a fix-all. Like, oh, you're low. Let's just boost you up. Also testing, like, how it's going to affect your mood, how it's going to affect certain other things. And then the fact that Jesse Waters is, like, joking about the safety of women within the military and then women who might run into someone who's like, it's a double.

joke to them women's safety women's freedom women's freedom all of that like it's there's also last thing I say about this and nobody reprimands this guy and the women just sit there and allow it to happen because how does the patriarch

because of this again how does the patriarchy continue women being complicit do you think that's the way the patriarchy continues one of the ways it can't exist without women being complacent we've talked about this we talked about this with Anna when she was here yeah yeah

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I'm not. I'm not saying it's the end of thing, but it is a hundred percent why it can continue. Right. Okay. Hey, I might get it. When you have women in the MAGA world who are like, oh, I want to be this. I want to be submissive and I want to do, you know, allow, I want to do this and allow my husband to do this.

And I am this person. Like that, like, part of the reason it exists. I said part of it. You're right. You're right. I'm a, hey, hey, God damn it now. I said, hey, I think part of it is because the men. men who are against it

aren't present enough, but I understand what you're saying. That too. Of course. Of course. So, you know what's funny about this? You know what I think about this? What's funny, Jesse? Jesse. Can I go Galaxy Brain real quick?

It's like go way too deep. I think this testosterone thing from people like Pete Hexeth is about something else. I think that there is a deep, deep, deep wish on the right to connect. biology to performance in every single way.

So let me see what I mean. So it's not about how you make yourself. It's about how you were made. So the good soldiers will be the soldiers that naturally have high testosterone because they're more man. The good people will be the ones that are born white because they're good people. The strong people will be the ones that will be born men. Then amongst the whites, the strong ones will be the people who have lineage and

Harvard and Yale and Princeton and because a belief, a core belief of the right is of natural selection by God. They don't believe necessarily in

announcement. They don't believe that you announce yourself as a part of a society. They believe in an anointment. That that happens before you're even born. Right? You guys remember the movie? I'll go back to another movie.

Trading places. The central argument in trading places between the brothers is one brother believes that your environment determines how you are. And the other brother is Mortimer and Winthrop. And the other Duke brother believes that it's in the blood. And what they do in the movie is they put Billy Ray in a situation where he has all the advantages and then they watch Billy Ray shine. And they take Lewis and put him in the fucking ghetto.

and then Lewis starts freaking out and Lewis starts robbing people and Lewis and that's the central debate between them. One is environment makes this. Another one is he says it. He goes, it's like race horses Mortimer. It's in the blood. And this right here is little shit like this

where they go, hey, we're going to test your testosterone. We're going to look like everything that P.S. has talked about is this like sort of I don't know this. Like we're made this way. We're made to rule. We're made to fight. We're made to, that's kind of what they believe.

And they're saying little shit when this happens. Jesse Waters right here, who is a fucking nerd, Jesse Waters has a belief of the way a man should be, should be, should be. Should be. A man should be this way. And this testosterone, if you're low on it, it's going to make you into that type of man. He's talking about the way a man should act. Now, he didn't act like, he didn't act like this when Ryan Grimm wrote up to him

at the White House Correspondence dinner situation. and check this temperature. You never heard about that? You never heard about that? Ryan and Jesse. Ryan and Jesse Waters. What are Ryan saying? Hey man, this is not me, Dick Rod and Ryan Grimm.

Well, just say what happened. Yeah, just tell the story. Okay, so apparently in like 2015 or something like that, Ryan Grim rolled up on Jesse Waters. And depending on what lore you believe about this, even if Ryan Grim put hands on Jesse Waters and stuffed them in a locker or they just had a really, really tense

back and forth to which Jesse Waters kind of got his temperature checked. I did listen to some audio about this. There is audio out there. I did listen some audio. It didn't really feel like one one person I saw said, Ryan Grimm beat the shit out of Jesse Waters. I can't find any evidence that that happened.

But I can tell you what, Jesse Waters didn't act like he wanted and maybe he need to get his testosterone check. No, when you surround yourself with people who laugh at your insensitive and sexist jokes when you have people who aren't brave enough to stand up to you and call you out on the things that you do

that are just basically a sounding board for you? Why would you think, why would he? Of course he's not. He's not going to stand up. He's putting something in the, I can share video of it about the Ryan Grimpton.

I don't think that we really need it. No, no, no. But it's just knowing that Jesse Waters is one person on camera behind a desk surrounded by a bunch of yes people. and another person when he's out in the wild. You think that Jessica Tarloff is a yes person? I don't think she is.

Is she from the five? She didn't meet the moment right there. She didn't meet the moment at all. That one was out right. That one was easy. To lay up. She's definitely like pushed back on other things in ways that nobody else did.

But at the same time. If she's not pushing back, she's not doing a good job. Would you ever be in a situation like that? Would you ever be in a situation to where you were cast as the voice of reason on a show? No, like Ebony K. Williams was on Fox News like that. I would be not the person.

She was good at it though. She's great. I didn't say she wasn't. You asked me, would I want to do that? I would be terrible. Why would you be terrible? I just couldn't have composure and go through that every day

and constantly be pushing back and listening to outrageous stuff. And also, I was to argue that it's worse than when Ebony was there. Now it is, yeah. Yeah, like it's even worse than it was before. I would never put my, I couldn't put myself in that situation. Do you think it's important that people do?

Well, yeah, I think that they should, there always should be like, I mean, if you can. If you can be a dissenting voice and represent yourself, well, I don't think I would be a good representative. I think you do great. Well, I've never been in that situation before. I think we should try to get you on the five. That's not going to happen. And the first day.

They got black people there. I've seen it. The first day for lunch at the five, Rachel's first day. So Rachel's here. Let's get lunch. We had lunch flown in from Argentina. Big nigger burgers, man. I'm gonna personify that.

If that was lunch that was served, that would be, I would actually be the featured burger in real life. What you mean? Big nigger. Big niggas. I would show the fuck out. Going crazy.

Going crazy. It doesn't work. Look, I've sort of been that person before. There's no sort of. I have. Not to that level. Not to that level. Not to that level.

Not to that level at all. Not to that level at all. And there was always somebody in there with me. Always people in there with me. Always people in there with me. But there was a breaking point. There's a breaking point. Listen, I've been in situations,

which is how you know you can't do it. It's how you know you can't. It was a breaking point. Big nigger burgers. We have a very special treat on higher learning today. Someone that I have known for quite a while, Dave Roberts, or should I say David Roberts?

Roberts. Whatever. Okay. Dave or Dave? I say Dave. Skipper at a Los Angeles Dodgers. No. Well, going to LA, whenever I get a car out in LA, they think I'm the manager of the Dodgers

and they have Mercedes Benz shows up to be the rental car. Use it. They don't even know you're more important to a lot of people. The man who has been influential over executives, over talent, over some of the that you know and love on ESPN. You're currently ESPN's Executive Vice President and Executive Editor of Sports News and Entertainment. You have a career in media that spans almost 50 years,

almost 50 years on camera and behind the camera. Also, someone I consider a mentor who is retiring at the end of August. Dave Roberts, welcome to higher learning. Thank you for being here. Thank you for happening. Okay, so I have to ask the big question, why, Why are we retiring?

Why is now the time? Well, you know what? The one thing that I've learned in life is that every aspect of life, whether it's a career, whether it's a job, whether it's anything, there's always a beginning, a middle, and an end. And you have to be strategic and smart enough to know when those parts of life happen. And so for me, it's just a good opportunity to look at the next chapter. and that's the focus. You know, I'm proud of what we collectively accomplished at ESPN over the past 22 years. And as I reflect on my career, you know, I think that there's some good impact there that I can

be proud of and hope that someone else can emerge and continue the momentum that's been started. It's really interesting because most people don't know when to hang up the cleats, as I like to say. Most people will have to be, you know, something has to happen or to be pushed. But I think it's really profound to know my time. It's done for me. I'm going to move on to the next thing. Yeah. Like I think more people need to take note of that.

Now when... How did you know? Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll be 70 in November. Okay. Where? Yeah.

It comes a time in life when you know when you know. And I looked at what has been accomplished. And I look at 22 years and also the fact that living in Connecticut for 22 years, it'll be nice to live somewhere where I actually want to live. Yeah. You don't like Bristol. I hear this all the time. It's rough.

You know what? Nothing's wrong with Bristol. But I grew up in places like Detroit, worked in places like D.C., Baltimore and Atlanta. And so I have a wonderful CEO and my wife, Teerica, who is making sure that we are set up nicely in Atlanta, Georgia. Right. Yeah. Have you ever been to Bristol? No.

It's no joke. You're being nice about it. It's rough. It's a rough place to live for 20-something years. That's all I'll say. You're from Detroit. Right. I did not know this, that your father owned a nightclub.

He owned a couple of nightclubs. A couple of nightclubs. So what, you started out there, obviously Detroit has such a rich history. What's a lesson that you learned from Detroit that maybe has stayed with you within these 50 years of media? That you really have to be patient and you have to pay your dues. When I graduated from college in 1978, a lot of my friends were working in the auto plants in Detroit, making $18, $20 an hour. When I first started out, I was making $3, and I said to myself,

what the hell did I go to school for? This is what I'm going to get paid, $3 an hour. And then when you look back or look ahead to where, you know, I am 50 years later almost, all those auto plants are closed. And a lot of the people that I grew up with are still in Detroit. And unfortunately, for a lot of them, not doing a whole lot. You started out on camera. Yes.

And then you went behind the camera, which also is hard for a lot of people to make that decision. You usually want to be on camera for a reason. But what was it? Well, who was influential in telling you to make the switch? Why was that important for you? And how do you feel like that changed your career by making that decision? The person I owe that to is Cleveland Sellers. It was in 19.

Legend. Yes. 1981 actually. He had me over for spaghetti and fried fish with his wife, Gwen. I'll never forget. And Cleave Sellers at the end of the dinner looked at me in the face and said, get your so-and-so off of TV trying to be a TV star and get into a position where you can decide S-H and you fill in the blank. And it was in that moment that I decided that, okay, well, maybe, you know, and he did a good job of explaining why. because at the time I was a reporter in Greensboro, Cleve was out there leading protests and mobilizing the black community across North Carolina. So it was in that moment that was a transitional moment in my career,

and in my life, actually. And it was at that point where I decided to get off the air and get into those decision-making career paths. So a lot of people have problems with that, have trouble with knowing what power in media actually is. Is power the ability to communicate to people on camera and, you know, change hearts and minds or whatever? Or is power choosing who gets to do that?

Right. What do you think? I think it's a question. It's a matter of both, actually. You know, being in the decision-making roles over the course of my career has allowed me to decide a situation such as when I was in Baltimore, for example, the million man March happened. And our station was a station that covered it wall to wall,

starting at 5 a.m. in the morning right into the very end. The other stations didn't do that. You have to be in a position where you can make those kinds of decisions on coverage and also who's on the air. I can remember also in that market where I hired Benjamin Hooks, former NAACP executive director as a political, commentator. So it's situations like that where you influence who's on camera and the stories that you cover. That's very important. And as I talk, think about that, I'm thinking about the

60th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, the 75th anniversary of Jackie breaking the color barrier. And I was proud to be the one who said, hey, we need to own this and make it the big deal that it is. And so I was put in charge of both those anniversaries. And as a result, we had a positive impact on what people saw on their television. In a world where people seem to be scared of the word diversity these days, talk about, like, with what you've done and been able to do, about the connection between success and diversity. First of all, I've always operated with the understanding that diversity means to me making sure that the playing field is level. And you can't have diversity without a level playing field.

And with a level playing field, then it's up to who's ever in the decision-making room to make sure that the people who decide what people see on the air, meaning as producers, and those who are delivering that news represent the markets that we cover. And so that's what, you know, I mean, and I've learned also over the course of time, it doesn't mean that every person of color, every black person is going to be the right person. And that's just part of the territory that you have

when you're in a leadership position where you have to make tough decisions and you just have to have thick enough skin to say, well, I really don't give it damn what so-and-so thinks. At the end of the day, it comes down to ratings and revenue, but you cannot have ratings and revenue if you are not reflective of the market that you cover. So for you being a black man in that position, was it sometimes difficult for you with the black talent that maybe didn't have the ratings

or the revenue that felt like their perspective was worthy of them being on the air and you having to tell them you just don't simply have the numbers? Yeah, there were always situations. Almost in every market that I've been in where you had to tell people's stuff that they didn't want to hear. And as a result, you know, there could be drama associated with those kinds of decisions.

And you just have to be aware and willing to understand that that's just part of leadership. Did you feel sort of any responsibility to spin it? specifically nurture black talent, meaning a lot of times I see this in other situations. Like sometimes you might be a little bit behind the curve because there were some systemic structural things that are slowing you down. You're competing with people whose accolades in this society might trump yours immediately because they had an easier path. But when you get people on the job, you see that there's a talent difference and that the candidate might be a better communicator.

Was there ever a time where you go, hey, you might not have it right now, and your colleagues might be a little bit of head of you, but we're going to make sure that you get every opportunity to catch them and maybe pass them because you're black and you have a background that denotes that. Well, there are so many examples of African-American women, for example, or African-American talent that I either hired or elevated or put in the right positions. And it's not because they weren't ready. It's just because they needed someone who would advocate and give them that opportunity. And I look at folks from Monica McNutt to Christine Williamson to Andrea Carter to Cheney Agu-McK to Rachel at the time that we met

and you bring people on to the stage and then they perform and you know and there are others so that's what I mean by when I when I leave that place they are in a much better position in terms of diversity than they've ever been

yeah when you made the switch to go from news to ESPN like what what were you hoping I'm sure you couldn't have even imagined, maybe you did, that you would elevate the way that you did. But what was crucial in making that decision to make the jump, and what were you aiming to do? Well, when I came to ESPN, I had been a news director in a lot of markets. And news directors are like head coaches. At some point, you get fired.

And that's what happened to me in Washington. I was news director in D.C. for four years and couldn't get the ratings up. And so that's just part of the business. And someone said, well, you know, you could go and be a news director in Chicago or I remember Philadelphia somewhere. And I said, enough for that merry-go-round. So that's when I came to ESPN. And I came at a position that wasn't as high as the one that I left. But I said, okay, I'm going to take the opportunity and learn the network business.

And that's what I did. whether it's radio or overseeing sports centers or different studio shows, which put me in a position to constantly elevate myself. You were an executive at ESPN during 2020, when Black Lives Matter was huge. And the conversation on air, you have a lot of black talent, the conversation on air really had a mixture of sports

and politics and culture. and I feel like ESPN face scrutiny from the audience in discussing, you know, racial and political issues. For you, how did you balance that? How did you handle knowing the importance of having the conversation? Also that your talent wanted to have the conversation. I'm sure people behind the scenes did as well,

but then also, you know, doing that under Disney. When you're in the room, you can say stuff like, look, sports and politics there's always been a mix of both. Going back to whether Jim Brown and led, I forgot what the picture was, people talked about where it was Jim Brown, Cream Abdul-Jabbar and a bunch of other folks,

whether it's the Williams sisters and what they had to deal with being up-and-coming superstars in the sport of tennis and the racism that they endured. So it's nothing new. It's a problem when you have executives who want to fall behind the, well, this is sports mentality. And that's just never been me because that's not reality. Did you feel like any of the criticism was warranted? Which criticism?

The criticism of the way ESPN kind of dipped a toe into the 2020 thing, but didn't quite commit to the coverage. Well, see, I actually thought we did. And the reason why I say that is, because I happen to have a hand in how we did it, whether it was putting the right people in place to talk about those issues and just making sure they were covered. Perhaps we could have done more,

but, you know, again, that's a real subjective part. But I was always unafraid to challenge within the organization that, especially nothing drove me crazier than when I heard that well you know that's we don't mix politics with sports and uh covering issues like that is crossing the boundary of of uh politics into sports you know it does seem like that there was a uh a contingent of ESPN personality it in in the time i don't watch too too much ESPN like anymore. But

I still catch it. But there was a time where I watched a lot, right? Like a lot. I was raised on SportsCenter. And as I grew older, there was a contingent of ESPN personality that had really direct

like political, socio-economic critiques. Bermani Jones, Jamel Hill, Michael Smith, Howard Bryant you'd see on ESPN all of the time. And a lot of these people. It seems like now there's amazing talent on ESPN right now.

But it does kind of seem like they're sticking to sports a lot of the time. Outside of Ryan. And the ladies do a fantastic job at framing the issues that are being talked about. Elle is phenomenal. Great talent there. I'm not saying anything

about the talent. But it seems like there's been kind of a network edict to maybe stick to sports a little bit more than there was about 10 years ago. Am I reading that wrong? I think the edict is to make sure that there is a connection to sports. And

for me, it's always easy because I think in one of the interviews I did I told someone of the story that I used to be a Cleveland Browns fan. Tough. And yeah. And I used to wonder why

80,000 people would boo Ben Davis every Sunday at Cleveland Stadium. He was right cornerback and he was an excellent cornerback. And you know, I was a kid at that time. And then, you know, my first news director's job,

I had hired Paul Warfield as an NFL analyst. And I asked Paul Warfield, I said, why do they always boo your team make every Sunday? He looked at me and he smiled and he said, because that's Angela Davis's brother. You know,

because, or Angela Davis is his sister. And if that's not a connection to sports... Connection to sports. That's a big connection to sports, then nothing is. Or when we did the Million Man March and you had hundreds of athletes on site. Had I been at ESPN, that would have been a story I would have pushed.

But at that time, I was strictly in the news side. Do you think that maybe some time ago that maybe there wasn't as much of a connection to sports some of the issues that people were talking about. Do you feel like they maybe escaped what ESPN's willhouse is to get their political takes and thoughts off? And maybe that hurt the

brand a little bit? Perhaps, but you know, I guess I would need a specific example. Well, I mean, you have like, obviously a personal friend of mine, but also just I say that just so people

know that I'm being transparent. But also you have like Jamel Hill. Right. And Jamel Hill on Twitter, not on ESPN, on Twitter says Donald Trump is a white supremacists. Right. And then Jamel Hill becomes a lightning rod for reasons other than the fact that she's talking about this on his and hers or on the sports center with Michael. She becomes, it becomes Jamel Hill and her personal political beliefs. But then also kind of like what people would do, I would see this, whenever they would have problems.

with her is they would go at ESPN. Is this what you guys are for? Is this what you guys are for? And then they end up going their own separate you guys end up, Jamel ends up leaving or whatever ends up happening that way. So is that the type of situation where when you're saying this talent

being that outspoken, particularly black talent, is that something that's sometimes confusing or inconvenient for the brand? It can be mischaracterized. Okay. In the case of whether it's her or any talent, my guidance to them is that you have to be strategically ahead of the game. And I want to say smart because we all know how smart most of the talent can be.

Not smart. Yeah. Yeah. They're very smart. Yeah. But, you know, you have to pick your battles. And even I've had to learn that over the course of my fourth. 48 years in this business.

Are you concerned about your influence at ESPN, like once you leave? Are you concerned about like the work that you've done and how influential you've been with black talent, black stories, black voices? In addition to everything else that you do, are you concerned that some of that may go away when you leave? Well, I would say, I would say this. I had breakfast with about a dozen African-American employees out here on Saturday. And my message to them is somebody else has to emerge. And they're all saying, okay, well, you know, who's going to be in the room? I said, well, you have to put yourself in position to be in the room.

And the only way you can do that is by producing and delivering the results. and strategically or smartly picking the battles that you know you have to fight. And so, what am I concerned? Well, yeah, I am. But that's just human nature. But I do believe that we have enough good people in the pipeline that will continue to continue to build on the momentum. And especially during this current climate that we live in,

it's more important than ever. Yeah. Do you think that barriers still exist for black journalists and commentators in sports media today? Yes. And part of it is you have a lot of media critics who are, you know, who happen to be white. And they only know one way of covering the media. And usually, like, you know, like I never get asked. to be on certain podcasts.

And I just think that there's a lack of education, lack of understanding of people when it comes to us. I really do believe that. Say more about that. So when you say a lack of education or understanding, is that inside of the executive suite, is that outside with media covering media, like what don't they understand?

Well, I'm talking about the media that covers the media. Okay, so what they don't? They don't understand like what? Look, I'm not tooting my own horn. Okay. But the fact that a lot of people in our business are surprised when they read my story, you know, I've only been around 48 years. So if you're interested in the real principles of diversity, then you would know who the players are. And that even applies.

in our community as well. As you look at the changing landscape of just media and people trying to figure it out because I feel like it's changing so quickly, do you feel like in the future or even right now it's possible to talk about sports and sports only? Like, is it the way things are changing, is it more? Sports has to intersect with all of these things. And I say that in, you know, just last, you know, with FIFA and what happened with the Trump administration. whether it be, I just had another example and I just lost it.

But like it just intersects so much with other things. Is it possible for sports to just be sports now? I don't think so, you know. Because it all kind of, you know. I mean, every year on April, the second week of April, there's a story being done about the fact that, okay, well, the number of African Americans on baseball rosters is now below 8%. You know, back in the 80s, it was at 25%.

So, you know, there's a reason why they have Jackie Robinson Day every April 15th, you know, because it's still a relevant situation, a relevant topic. Or keep your eye on the lawsuit that was filed by Brian Flores, coach of the Dolphins. He's winning a whole lot of court battles. And it all comes back to whether the Rooney rule is valid or not. So it's always going to be relevant. I don't care what anybody says. The example I was going to say is the White House, you know, when a team wins, you know, the championship going to the White House is all we talked about.

Do you think networks get that? I know those conversations are had on podcasts and, you know, maybe other streaming services, but like network television, do you think they? understand that that's how the landscape is changing. Not even changing. It depends on who's in the room. If you don't have strong African-American executives in the room, then those conversations won't happen as often as they do or need to happen. And I want to emphasize, sometimes they happen.

They happen. But there has to be a degree of importance associated with those conversations. when it comes to covering those topics and making sure you have the right people covering those topics. The ESPN in general, when PTI comes in, PTI introduces a debate format.

Right. So first, I guess I had watched, the sports reporters was kind of a debate show. It's more of a panel show. The panel debates each other, that everybody gets, I used to love watching the sports reporters. Right. It's one of my favorite shows, right?

But the PTI comes in and the debate thing happens. Then cold pizza becomes first take. Cold pizza becomes first take, and now we embrace debate. And now we embrace in debate 24-7. Outside of the football coverage and the one basketball, just seems like the majority of it is a hot take contest. Is that good overall for sports discussion that so much of it has devolved into who can out, I'll take, who else? I mean, do you consider get up in that category?

A little bit, not quite as much, but a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, not quite as much, though. But when I look at ESPN's football coverage particularly, you can get smarter about football by watching. Mina, Ryan, Swago, Dan, you can get smarter about football by watching them. A lot of times when you watch them first take, it's like just the empty calories. You can't really learn anything about sports from watching first take.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? The reality of first take is it's the premier debate show on sports TV. It's a premier debate show on TV, probably. I don't know too many other shows where people debate that are big in the first day. Yeah, and the ratings, you know, I mean, the show has set record ratings now three months in a row.

And, you know, in its time period for the last several years. Right. So it comes down to, you have to know your audience. First Take's audience is predominantly African American. And it has been over 50% African American. and that's what the audience wants. And now, it's up to the people in charge. And that includes me to make sure that, you know,

that if it isn't substantive, then you have to make sure that there's some substance behind it. And we have those kinds of conversations, even on shows like first take. I'm talking about in the room after the show is over. Like, did we do enough? Did we educate people enough? and all of that stuff like that.

Do you think that that type of sports programming is starting to wane a little bit because I'll even say like, you know, here at the ringer. You got Zach Lowe, you got a lot of people and stuff like that. There are debates and stuff, but then there are just people that I'll tell you what the rotations are. You can learn what a RAM screen is.

You can learn the definition of the second apron. You can learn all about the new rules of the draft. And like if you listen to enough podcasting that's going on, you'll know at the end of a one-hour podcast, every team's salary cap position, if you're listening to it. Like, you'll just know, only the bulls of the nets have money to spend.

Like, what's really going to happen? It just doesn't seem like that type of coverage. You used to be, but I used to watch edge NFL matchup. Do you remember that show? Yeah. I used to watch Edge NFL matchup on Sunday morning, it's really early, and they would give you all the schematic breakdowns and all of that stuff.

Who used to host that show? I cannot remember who used to host a bit. was it Chris Mawtonio used to be yeah yeah so I used to watch I used to watch all of these shows so like get smarter about sports and it doesn't feel like I'm not just picking on ESPN here but even on FS1 and stuff like doesn't feel like that's what maybe the audience doesn't want that that's what I was going to say I don't know if they want that well they there's a huge podcast audience for it but I'm just saying like it it's it doesn't seem like that's what the networks are into anymore well it comes down to personality okay and people

gravitate the personality. They go to PTII because of Tony and Mike. When Tony and Mike are not on PTII, there is a major drop in the ratings. We want to see our uncles, man. Yeah. Yeah, that's what we want to see our uncles. They go to first take because of Stephen A. Smith. Right. Like him or not. Right. That's what they go to first take for. Another example of what I experienced in my career earlier, when we became the number one station in Baltimore, people asked me, they said, how did you beat WJZ in Baltimore? I said, well, I was an idiot when Montel Williams led into our news, and I became a genius when we got over.

So it comes down to personality. Simple is that. People listen to podcasts if they connect with the personality. There are hundreds of podcasts out there that probably have two or three listeners per day. Right. And that's because they don't have a personality. So that's the space that you all are in. And so something you could probably relate to there.

Yeah, no, it's true. What do you want the next generation? You know, like as you think about what's next and you move on to the next phase of your career, because I know you're not done. What do you want the next generation of black journalists and broadcasters to know that maybe nobody told you? Because I think a lot of people get, look at the current landscape, feel like maybe it's saturated, feel like they don't know what to do as media is changing. What would you tell them?

to remain nimble because the business is going to continue to change almost every week, if not every day. And to be, to strive for excellence because, you know, nobody's ever going to be perfect, but you can always strive to be excellent. And if you are excellent, then you can be in a position to impact the change that needs to happen. And hold each other accountable. Hold yourself accountable for the results. And know the audience. Know the market that you're covering.

And to always watch. I always used to like watching the fine talent, the right talent. And don't downplay the decision-making roles. I mean, I'm going to speak in an N. BJ in a couple of weeks and the last time I did I asked people in the room is like a 200, 300 people in there. How many of you all want to be on the air? Everybody raised their hand. How many want to be in the decision making leadership positions? Nobody raised their hand. So hopefully this year that'll change. I mean, there's got to be more people willing to make decisions, take the flag in the

controversies and make the hard decisions, no matter what. But so. Yeah. Well said. Being in leadership can be a lonely space. Yeah. It definitely is. Yeah.

Like what you, I'll tell you what you got to do. Right. You got to, every once in a while, you just got posts from like Turks or Anguilla or Greece when you take the wife on a nice vacation. And you got to brand it. Right. Okay.

You got to take a puff of the cigar and you got to be Dave the boss. It's like some of y'all trying to get five minutes on the air I got 5,000 minutes on the air because everybody that's talking I put them there if you don't do it that way then I'm going to want to do it

That is exactly how you would do it Which is why some people are here And some people are not I'm saying for me, I'm just trying to make more people Every time I meet Like the young people now They go man oh man I'm trying to put

me on and all that stuff like that. I mean, there's so many different ways to be successful, but it's a world where everybody wants their face on the cover of it. And I get it. Same thing. I get it. That was awesome. Yeah, no.

I mean, if you stayed being that person, where would some of this talent, myself included, be? So I, we wish you the best. I want to say thank you. I don't know what you saw in me years ago. You saw something. You gave me an opportunity. Stop laughing.

You gave me an opportunity that changed my life completely. And it's no, truly, and it's why I'm here right now at the ringer. I left ESPN and came over here. But I know that so many people have the same story and you'll continue to get an outpouring of love and appreciation for all that you've done. And I know that you'll continue to do that whatever you do next. Well, you know, it seems like I said this. I was telling my wife this, you know, I'm actually surprised by the people's reaction. And, you know, I said, I feel like I've read my obituary,

and then they're going to have this recognition dinner for me. It's going to be like the repass. So at least I don't know what it's like when the time is finally up. Anyway, so anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we wish you all the best and look forward to what's next. Good to meet you, too. Nice to meet you, Brian.

Anything else? Do we care about John Fetterman changing parties? No. He's already changed parties. Yeah, but the fact that I guess he, this is a red line. He's like, if the. platform of the party becomes anti-Israel, I will officially leave the party. He's never sent that. He's actually always tried to kind of defend what he's doing. He's like, I'm still, I would be a terrible

Republican. He would, he almost tries to like, I'm working to get along with him or I believe in this. I mean, he's always been a staunch supporter of Israel. But at the same time, he's still been like, I have not left the party. Like he even put, he did an op-ed in Washington Post not too long ago about explaining the decisions that he's made and talked about still being a part of the party. This Wade news because he made it a one issue. If this becomes a platform of the Democratic Party, I will leave, which is what got the conversation started. Because you don't typically see politicians, you're there to represent more than one thing. And this is obviously something that's controversial as progressives are becoming more outspoken, as just society is becoming more educated about Americans, the U.S.'s role historically and in the present.

with Israel, that it's a bigger deal. And then it begs like, why is this the red line issue? Should politicians even do something like this? Is it, of course not, but I'm just telling you that that's the conversation of like why. This isn't to your thing, you said, hasn't he kind of always been like this? And I'm like, well, this is different because he said,

this. This, yeah, he's threatening the party. If you do this on this one issue, And he's couching it under. It's a morality thing. It's a character thing. It's a judgment, which is a whole other conversation of that's really rich to say

in light of what has happened and what is continuing to happen. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you know, depending on where he's, like, going to go. I think that particularly, by the way, we haven't talked about it, but the Iran war is spiraling out of control. Yeah. So American Service.

members were killed just recently. And even prior to that, the escalation ladder, while we're not scurrying up it, now, we kind of moving pretty quick up that bitch. At this point, Iran has distanced itself from the MOU. They're out of the MOU. The MOU is a thing of the past. No MOU is done. Donald Trump is out of political options in Iran.

and the war now is kind of being waged all over the region. It only really takes the Iranians to go just straight up right now regional war against anyone who harbors American servicemen because they are our enemies. Another thing that's happened inside of Iran, I want you guys all pay attention to. They're not supporting us, but ground news is good for this coverage.

Dropside news is good for this coverage. get some of this coverage on the nation. You can follow all kinds of different podcasts to the left and to the right and to the center. Obviously, I love the bad faith podcast. I love breaking points. I love all of these different places to go and get news and listen to like Al Jazeera if you guys want to go do that stuff. But also stay in touch with what's happening from the center of your media. Like legacy media here, CNN and all of these places.

Consume all of this to try to see how the story is. getting framed differently. I'll say this. There's some fissures inside of Iran, and that's very important to take account of and take note of. Because we decapitated their leadership, there's at least a small chance that the hardliners are, well, not a small chance. It's likely that the hardliners in Iran were being held in check by the formal

a supreme leader. Mm-hmm. That while there's no possible way that you would call him a moderate, he essentially was stopping the true hardliners for taking complete control of the government. Now, he's gone. His son seems to be wounded. Might be dead. Who knows?

And those hardliners are making their presence felt in a real way. Some of them hellbent on not just revenge against the United States for the action that we've taken, but also seem to actually want to put their thumbprint on the region in a way. Look, I'm saying all of this to say that whatever political faction is in charge of Iran, they might not be very interested in making any peace because we preemptively attacked them for no reason. Well, I was going to say, we kind of touched on it before on the podcast, but like how did they come into power? Like what had to happen?

People died. They lost family members. Like I, like, and multiple, multiple people have died as we've talked about it on both sides. But yeah, like, if they were already that way, and then the reason that they've even been able to step into power is because of they have been killed at the hands of, from our country. Then, of course, it's even worse. They're motivated by everything that's happened. Right. And already prior feelings that they have.

In that situation, what I'm saying is, that plus our proximity to Israel in that particular conflict, there might not be a political home for the pro or that for the pro-Israel crowd might see their political home in America's shrinking period. And what needs to happen in that case is that there needs to be a re-investigation or a recontextualization of our relationship with Israel, what Americans will take, what Americans will vote for, and what they're going to do. But for Fetamin, I say all of that to say that he's going to have to ask himself where he's going to go.

Well, I think that's why he made that comment because of everything that you just said, because there is a reevaluating, like a reexamining of the relationship in light of knowledge that people had or maybe that they weren't willing to look at prior to all of this. I think that the threat was because he does feel that things, are changing. And I mean, obviously it's in light of two of like Democrats, what was it, like 100 Democrats decided not, voted not to send aid. This is him trying, this is him threatening

for a reason. Yeah, he's threatening for a reason. I won't say this though. Before we got this, you know, this is just kind of bluster by him because the top of the party, the power base of the Democratic Party is still very, very interested in the same relationship with Israel we've already had. Like the people that are, it'll be interesting to see what these presidential candidates. I think most of

the Democrats that you're talking about, if they didn't support the war, they supported regime change in Iran. And they were very, very, very delicate about how they discussed it. Well, you know, the Iranians are, the Iranian regime is bad. I have no love for it, but the president

has to follow the rules. That's actually not what you say. If you want to critique the war, what you say is that, hey, we shouldn't be in there, sending American troops and American money over there to fight a war that is not in our interest against a nation that hasn't attacked us on behalf of another nation

or because another nation is interested in that war in their region. We shouldn't do that. Like no relationship should denote that. And we should kind of look at why we are doing that. So, you know, that being what it is, they didn't want to do that. They couched it and they fucking ran behind it and they ran behind all that. They couldn't.

They still can't. So I don't know what the fuck he's even talking about. He just doesn't want to be a Democrat anymore. He doesn't want to be a Democrat. He doesn't want to be a Democrat. Nobody fucking cares anyway. Who fucking cares? Well, at this point.

I mean, like who fucking cares? Like, we can't count on we, I'm not Democrat. The Democrats can't count on, see that? It's what happened? A long time, identity. Can't count on Fetterman for anything. Yeah, now. I mean, but remember when he came in, he was a darling.

He was a political darling. Remember what topic were we just talking about where you were like, political darlings will come and go? He was up there. People loved him when he first came in. It's so funny. Everybody used to, this is how you know it's all horseshit. Everybody used to defend him for the shit that they're making fun of him for now. Now, I see people posting videos going, John Fetterman, can't even fucking say a full sentence without whatever, whatever.

But if you would have pointed that out before, you'd have said, said, hey, John Fetterman has had some real health issues, and you're an asshole if you say that about him. But now, the same people that are off of Fetterman use that exact same thing. It's all horseshit. Yeah. It's all bullshit. Make up your own fucking mind.

You know what it was that people loved about him at the beginning? He was an everyday man. He was an everyday man. No, no, no. He wasn't an everyday man because, you know, like, you know, my dad was an everyday man. He was an everyday white man. Oh, they love it. Boy, they love it.

I was going to pick, you know what? You know what I'm going to do? What? I'm going to pick a random white guy. I'm going to make him into a political thing. Just as an awesome bulwark shit. I'm going to go. You don't have enough time, Van.

Now, I'm going to do this over the next 10 years. Y'all not even going to know it. I promise you. Over the next 10 years. Huh? Yep. Over the next 10 years, I'm just going to go somewhere. I'm going to be like, I'm going to see somebody.

And he's going to be working with his hands, tilling the soil. Good luck finding them. Working with his hands, tilling the soil. He's going to be tilling the soil. And that's the first political ad, tilling the soil. Hey, hi. I'm Mark Latimer. See how I do this soil?

This is why I do the people. Sometimes you have to take the soil that's at the bottom and raise it to the top. And that way, you get the nutrients because all soil needs is a little sunlight just like you. put him in a fucking hat or a cable in his sweater this nigger's going until we find out he killed 140 people in Iraq all right

take us out take the in caps off but do not stop learning till the soil all the soil at the bottom needs is a little sunlight at the top Rachel and Lindsay bye guys