Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Will Packer on ‘Praise This’, Plus Donald Trump Arrested

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay react to the expulsion of Congress members from the Tennessee House of Representatives (0:19), before welcoming AP journalist Michael Sisak to break down the arrest and arraignment of Donald Trump (22:27). Then producer Will Packer joins for a “delightful” interview to discuss his newest film, ’Praise This’ (54:34). Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Will Packer and Michael Sisak Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Howellian is on. It is I, Van Lathen, Jr. Wow. It's me, Rachel, and Lindsay. Sorry, I'm looking at breaking news. Tennessee House votes to expel

State Representative Jones. Talk about it. He's walking out, like, right now, he's walking out of the courthouse with his fists in the air. I guess they haven't made a vote on the other two. So if you guys haven't been paying attention right now, we've talked about what's going on in Tennessee.

There's a lot going on. But right now, what's about to happen in the Tennessee legislature is absolutely despicable. So today they are voting on expelling three Democrats over gun protests.

Now, you know, if you've been following the news, that there was the recent shooting at that school in Tennessee where six people lost their lives. Today, their legislature, which is Republican-led, is voting to whether or not

not to expel three Democratic lawmakers who recently led a protest from the House floor calling for gun law reforms. Those representatives are Gloria Johnson, Justice Jones, and Justice Pearson. As you just heard me say, Representative Justin Jones was just expelled. They do acknowledge that they didn't follow the rules of order and decorum by speaking without formally being recognized, but now they're facing a disciplinary measure that's only been used twice since the 1800s. They're obviously exercising their First Amendment rights, and they recognize that what they're doing doesn't follow the rules, but this is just where you reprimand them.

You don't actually remove them from office. Like the fact that there's even the power to do this over them exercising not just their First Amendment rights, but what their constituents want. They were standing alongside a fellow voters from Tennessee who are urging the legislature to make a change in regards to gun reform after what's not just happened recently, but what's been happening in the state of Tennessee and throughout the country.

And for that, they're being punished. This is insane. Donnie, I just sent you something. Did you get it? Okay. I got it. And it's ready. So I want.

you guys to hear a back and forth that I actually posted to the gram just before this. This back and forth is between a Republican state representative who asked Justin Jones what he meant by no justice, no peace, which is something that he was chanting when he was out there protesting. Donnie, give that to us. When you say no action, no peace, what do you you mean? What does Representative Jones mean by no peace? Thank you. Representative Jones. Thank you. I would invite my colleague from Putnam County to join any protests where that is a very familiar chance that it usually goes, no justice, no peace. And I believe the roots of it

lie in something that Martin Luther King stated that true peace is not merely the absence of attention, but it is the presence of justice. That's what I was saying, is that until we act, there will be no peace in our communities. In addition, I would like to read some context about that chance that comes from Jeremiah 614. I'll read the New Living translation. says they offer superficial treatments for my people's mortal wound. They give assurances of peace where there is no peace. I'll go to the new international version. They dress the wound of my people as though it was not serious.

Peace, peace, peace, they say where there is no peace. That's what the chant means is that we have no peace. And that until we act, there will be no peace for the thousands of children who came here demanding that we act, who are afraid that if they're in school, they'll be gun down because you have passed laws to make it easier to get a gun that it is to get health care in this state. you've passed laws to make it easier to get a gun that it is to vote in this state. And so that there will be no peace in Tennessee until we act on this proliferation of weapons of war in our community. That is the piece I was talking about.

That is what I was saying. Okay. So like Rachel said, that young man has now been kicked out of the Republican-led Tennessee. State House. There was a protest. They led the protest on the house floor about gun laws, and they kicked him out for it.

Okay. 72 to 25 was the vote. 72 to 25 was the vote. Okay. So there are some things to understand here. Number one, obviously, we understand that this is political. And this is penalty.

You rock the boat too much. Somebody's going to push you out of it. That's the way that it goes. It'd be interesting to know, and maybe Donnie can look it up. This hasn't been invoked or no one's been removed from the Tennessee House of Representatives since 1800. It's happened twice, yes, since 1800s. It's happened twice since 1800s. So, wait a minute.

This is the third time. or the second time? It's been used twice. Okay. So. It would be interesting to know what it was used for then. Not that it matters, but it would be interesting to know, at least historically, this is breaking. So we haven't been able to really, this is happening in a real time, guys, so bear it with us.

It would be interesting to know what met sort of the criteria to do that then. So, Donnie, if you can kind of work on that while we're talking, just jump in with it when you got it, Ben Affleck style when you want to discuss it. Now, look, this kind of goes back to a conversation that we have here all the time.

Okay. They're not fucking around. They're not. They're not fucking around. They've told you who they are over and over and over again. You cannot ever be surprised by who they are.

So this should come as no surprise. The fact that they essentially use the nuclear option on these politicians, none of you out there should be the least bit surprised. What should surprise you or what you should be asking is how do you want your elected officials,

your activists, and your advocates to deal with this? Okay, they are going to the mattresses. This has nothing to do with anything that happened on the House floor. If they make an argument that says, hey, we want to make sure that we establish clear rules and guidelines and what is acceptable from elected officials on the House floor, they could have done that by reprimanding the individuals in question. It's the political death penalty to remove them, essentially. and they went there and they didn't believe. And they won't.

And they won't. I am not shocked that they did it. I think the shocking thing is these rules exist on the books where either people know them and they would never take the opportunity to exercise it or they have no idea that these even exist. I think that's what's shocking is that something like this where the legislature can have this much power to just seems like to based on anything

if you violate the decorum by any means they have the power to just kick you out when there's a majority-led legislature that's what I think is the shocking thing to me is that there's so much power

to do whatever you want even if it is politically based it's not what they did it's the how they're able to do it that's shocking to me what do you mean how they're able to do it what do you mean by that? As in like that's a rule

that's allowed. Like there's no boundaries. There's nothing holding them back to be able to exercise this power. That's what I think, that's what I mean by the house.

That seems to be shocking to me. Go ahead. I mean, impeaching and removing someone is available at but the basis of it. The basis of it is what I'm saying. When you say the basis of it, are you talking about

the criteria for removal? Correct, correct. Which is what? Tell people what that is. Well, I don't know what it is. But this to me seems to be a minimal thing because Donnie just pulled up the other two incidents where this was actually exercised and what that was based off of. So you had Representative Robert Fisher was kicked out of the house in 1980 after being convicted of soliciting a $1,000 bribe in exchange for trying to squash pending legislation. Pause.

A criminal act. Pause. Real quick. So let's look at that. That strikes right at the heart of your ability to govern fairly. That is the most fundamental of errors or crimes that you commit. If you are essentially taking bribes in exchange, which we all know they do, in exchange for affecting policy, then you are absolutely

unfit to be in anyone's state house anywhere. Continue, Rach. Also, a crime was committed here. A crime. That is not what these three representatives did by exercising their First Amendment right to protest. The second one, 1866, the year is important. Six lawmakers were ousted during a special session after they tried to prevent Tennessee from ratifying the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to provide citizenship to former slaves. Oh, so, Rachel, hit them with it again so we know. Just one more time. Just say it one more time, Rachel.

The year is 1866. Six lawmakers were ousted during a special session after they tried to prevent Tennessee from ratifying the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to provide citizenship to former slaves. Okay. So in that situation right there, This is a set of choices that were made.

Okay, two of these are political. One of these is actually a merit-based expulsion of a lawmaker. One is, we're not going to let you take our guns no matter what. And if you bring that fight to the state house doors, then we will find a reason to get rid of you. The other one is an age-old American adage, no niggas. The oldest rule in America, guys, and I don't care what you guys say. The oldest rule in America is simply no niggins.

And if you go too hard, they'll remind you. Question. The Speaker of the House is Cameron Sexton. He likened what happened, the protests that took place at the Tennessee State House to an insurrection. Okay. I would imagine that people,

okay, hold on. Let's maintain as much objectivity as it's possible right now. You're right. I would imagine that people who, I imagine that would be the most compelling argument that they would make as to why they had to be so draconian in the consequences for these lawmakers. Okay.

Do you see any realm where being a part of, or inciting any sort of mass hysteria or protest or demonstration or chaos in a statehouse could or should lead to what happened to Justin Jones.

No, not in the way that Justin Jones and the other two congresspeople conducted themselves. I do not think that that's it. I think that, like, listen, did they disrupt, you know, order? Sure. That is what protesting does. Should they maybe be reprimanded for it? Sure. But to lose their position is extreme. And to compare it to January 6th, I'm sorry, where people lost their lives, where people were shitting in the Capitol, where they were calling to hang people, they were threatening, they were tearing things. Like, that's a totally different situation. You might not like, how. how these people did it as, not how, but like where they did it and the position that they had as far as protesting gun reform.

But nothing. It is ludicrous. Unless you're referring to the January 6th that Tucker Carlson showed on his show. Based on that video, I could see how maybe that's what you're thinking. Not what actually happened in real life. There's one more example that Donnie just put in the chat. Thank you so much for this, Johnny. Wait, who?

Donnie. on the spot. I was about to call. I was about to call. Wait, wait a second. I was in my mind. I was about to call. I was going to say, you're not Johnny on the spot. You're Donnie on the spot. 2016, when the chamber voted 70 to 2 to remove then representative Jeremy Durham, Republican, from the House over allegations of sexual misconduct. Okay. So that's in the throes of the Me Too movement.

And it was a situation to where they probably, they, they nuked that guy. because of his allegations and because of where the country was. Okay. I'm going to go back to House Speaker Cameron Sexton. He added, what they did was try to hold up the people's business on the House floor instead of doing it the way they should have done it, which they have the means to do. They actually thought that they would be arrested. And so they decided that them being a victim was more important than focusing on,

the six victims from Monday. And that's appalling. So this essentially takes away this undoes an election, which all impeachments and removals basically do, besides Supreme Court justices and district judges and federal judges who are appointed, who aren't elected.

So that's another reason why it should only be the last, last, last resort, because you're essentially undoing democracy. when you do something like this. All right. For me, looking at what was said,

but by sex and just then, and putting everything together. I would love to know the feelings of Justin Jones right now. I know he's been very active on Twitter. I know that he's talked about this and the others that are involved. I just want everybody to know the links that the other side is willing to go to.

And I want everyone to always be aware of that. this puts us, as we talk about it, be it left-leaning, liberal, or people who care about freedom, justice, and value in life, it puts us in an awkward position. And I really feel this way. The awkward position that we're in sometimes is that we have to, I'll talk about myself. So these are the moments where it feels like criticizing Joe Biden, criticizing local elected leaders that might be Democrats, having conversations about what you need from specific political factions, it seems like it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

These are the moments where you sort of get kicked in your ass and you go, well, there's no real way to do this now. except for truly like it's a football game. Because while we're trying to navigate a complex political landscape

in terms of what the base is on the left, or what it means to be a black American and demand things from your politicians, or what it means to be a person, a man, and want to advocate for women. All of these things are more complex political ideas.

The conversation on the other side is very simple. Kill them all. Like, kill them all. And it's an easy rallying cry to kind of get behind. Kill them all. They want to get your guns, kill them.

They want reproductive rights for women. Kill them. They want to have a conversation about textually who America has been through the lens of race or even including race, kill them. They want to have conversations about the LGBT community and what it means to be inclusive. They want to have conversations about the progression.

Kill them. Kill them. Kill them. Kill them. That's what it is. Kill your, kill the discussion of history. Kill the discussion around weapons. Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill.

Kill. The same thing that these weapons are doing to children. And so, really, I think some of the conversations we need to have are about, you know what? I don't know what the conversations are. I don't know how you do it. There's no way to do it other than kill them all back, right? That's exactly what I was about to say.

I mean, two black people, one woman. The two black men are the youngest, two of the youngest black men sitting right now in the house and the woman. Gloria is one of the few women that currently sits in the house. So this was probably, not probably, this was the opportunity to sever the head of their young, black, and female political careers. It looks that way. Yeah. objectively. You know, forgive me if it sounds a little militant, but if this is the way we're playing the game, well, the only way to even have a dog in the fight or to even be successful and win is to match that same energy.

I was listening to Morning Joe, and he was talking about it, but he was referring to the vote that just happened in Wisconsin with the Supreme Court and Democrats taking control over the Supreme Court, which is a big issue because Wisconsin is just a state that we watch politically these days. And he was saying that in that particular race where the woman, please forgive me, I don't know her name, where she beat the Republican who was an extreme far right guy running for Supreme Court, he said that they ran an extremely dirty race and what Democrats are finally getting hit to and particularly what she got hit to is to fight just as dirty as he was fighting. And I think that that is where we are right now. We talk about a civil war coming, but it seems like it's more likely for that to happen sooner or later when if this is how you're fighting

and if the only answer is to fight back this way, we're just going to go at it. Yeah. Okay. Look, guys, we realize we're being reactionary, but this is just happened and we are reacting in real time to the stakes here. And Jones called this a political lynching. And I really don't see how you could argue. And that's me being as objective as it can be. All right, that was pleasantries today because now we have to get to the podcast. This was kind of how we started.

We have a fantastic interview coming later with Will Packer. He has a great movie on Peacock right now called Praise This. Rachel, Will, and I talk about a great many things. Yeah. It's a good conversation. It really was. Later on. But first, before that, we're going to get to the big deal of the day, which is actually

not what just happening in Tennessee, but the indictment of Donald Trump, the information that you need, what DA Alvin Bragg said, and really the question, how strong is the case against former President Trump? That's on the other side of this. break. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit

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Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Okay, so Donald Trump. Donald Trump is your big deal with the day and the indictment on Donald Trump we know a little bit more about now Alvin Bragg had a press conference

and the indictment itself was released until you continue to read it up get your information from it. We are actually joined by somebody who's going to help us make sense of this because we didn't want to make

we didn't want to have you guys out here saying the wrong stuff. stuff to your friends. You know what I mean? Making a fool of yourself. So we got Michael Sissac to join us today. He is a law enforcement journalist with the Associated Press. It's been in New York, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., all the hoods,

provided coverage of events while reporting from the Manhattan Courthouse. That was ground zero for a lot of dustups right there. Wasn't it, Michael? It was. Yeah, this was the venue for the arraignment. first time we've ever seen, you know, a former president of the United States in court, facing criminal charges. And then, of course, outside the courthouse, you had a lot of activity with pro-Trump supporters, people who are against Trump, Marjorie Taylor Green, and George Santos

were there, members of Congress. There were, even when you were in the court waiting, as Donald Trump was coming in, you could hear, you know, people whistling, blowing whistles, chanting, cheering at times. It was definitely a, you know, circus-like or carnival-like atmosphere around there this week. Michael, you were in the courtroom? I was, yeah. There were about 50 or 60 reporters that were actually able to get into the courtroom

where Donald Trump was arraigned. And then other reporters can watch from overflow courtrooms where it was broadcast on a closed circuit type set up. But yes, I was in the actual courtroom watching as he came in, watching as he firmly said not guilty, watching as the prosecution

raised questions about his social media, posts about the DA and the judge and other people involved in the case. Yeah, it was it was something certainly in my career that, you know, I've never seen before, a president, you know, in court facing criminal charges certainly and just something very surreal in a sense and and just different from the ordinary, you know, goings on at the courthouse. Okay, so before we get into the indictment itself and what it means, let's hear a little bit from DA Bragg. Donnie, give us a little bit of, it was about 13 minutes that he spoke about and went to some detail about what the indictment meant why these crimes, why those 34 counts of them, why these

crimes that are normally misdemeanors were escalated to felonies, we're not going to give you the whole thing, but we'll give you a little taste of the tone and the tenor of Brad's press comments. Earlier this afternoon, Donald Trump was arraigned on a New York Supreme Court indictment returned by a Manhattan grand jury on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in the first degree. Under New York State law, it is a felony to falsify business records with intent of the fraud and intent to conceal another crime. That is exactly what this case is about.

34 false statements made to cover up other crimes. These are felony crimes in New York State, no matter who you are. We cannot and will not normalize serious criminal conduct. Okay, so Michael, I have a question for you. If I were an incredibly lay person and I asked you, what would you need, what would I need to know? A citizen of this great country, that's this okay country. a citizen of this country. And I ask you, what would I need to know about Trump's indictment?

What would you tell? Yeah, I think the thing that stood out to me first that would be good to know is it's not just hush money about. It's not just about Stormy Daniels, I should say. It's not just about that one instance of alleged hush money payments. The charges stem from the stormy case that we kind of all know about from the years of investigation from Michael Cohen, from that sort of stuff. But what DA Bragg has laid out, what his prosecutors have laid out, is that this was part of what they call an illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election. And they point to two other instances, one of which we know some about and the other one that hasn't been nearly as covered as much. Karen McDougal, she was a playboy model that was paid by the National Enquirer through an arrangement involving Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen and the publisher of the National Enquirer. And then this other case where the National Enquirer paid $30,000 to a Trump Tower doorman.

That doorman, you know, alleged to have a story that Donald Trump fathered an out-of-wedlock child or, you know, through an extramarital relationship, that kind of thing. That has never been proven. But nonetheless, even the allegation they felt could be damaging. And the allegation from DA Bragg is that these are three examples of this concerted effort to what they call catch and kill these stories. So while we talk a lot about Stormy Daniels, and that's certainly central to this case, what they're trying to say is that this goes beyond just that one instance,

that there were multiple attempts to take these stories that could be embarrassing to Donald Trump and to suppress them from the voters and from the public. What's interesting is, as people are talking about whether, just talking about Trump, and the whole media circus of it all, people either seem to believe that there, that Alvin,

DA Alvin Bragg has a lot of evidence and Trump's going to be found guilty or it is the complete opposite that he hasn't quite shown that this rises to the level of a felony and he's going to get off and that Alvin Bragg didn't provide enough information to the public

in regards to why this rises to the level of a felony. And I was wondering if you could speak to that because there seem to be a lot of critics that do not believe that this is a felony. did Alvin Brague prove that, not prove because like he doesn't have to, but did he outline that in the indictment or in something he said or maybe something we didn't see in the courtroom since you were in there? Maybe this will clear it up a little bit. Yeah, I think that that's a that both this, both arguments are kind of interesting and we'll, you know, bear out as we go on in this process, as more evidence is turned over, certainly as we hear from witnesses.

The whole thinking about Alvin Brag sort of in his career as DA was, you know, what? what is he going to do about Donald Trump, right? Because he comes into office, inherits a case against the company, against the former CFO. You have that already pending. And then he backs off of a potential indictment of Donald Trump, which is outlined, you know, in the book by his former prosecutor and sort of that public debate. He gets the conviction of the company. And then they are reviving this case, which, you know, had been known around the office as the zombie case because it had been investigated over and over again without charges being brought. Now he has brought charges.

He has shown on one hand that he has stuck to his word that the investigation was ongoing and active. But on the other hand, he has opened himself up to criticism from people who see, you know, not only on the right, but also on the left, who see that there are other cases out there that could be potentially more damaging to Donald Trump. You have the classified documents, January 6th, the Georgia investigation about the election interference that is alleged to have happened. in there. So you have all that going on. The reason Albin Bragg says he's able to charge these crimes as a felony as opposed to a misdemeanor is because of what he cites as a state law, making it illegal to interfere, influence an election. Now, critics will argue that since this was a presidential election, federal law should apply. Alvin Bragg was not specific in whether he's also alleging allegations of federal law. And the law is kind of untested in this area. There

haven't been too many cases, certainly no cases involving a former president, but really no cases involving a state prosecutor bringing charges that hinge on a violation of federal law. So that may be argued out as this case unfolds. I'm certain that Trump's lawyers are going to argue that there is no basis for felony charges or, in fact, maybe any charges. And of course, there will be pushed back from Alvin Bragg saying, you know, it's a federal election, but also voters in New York State were maybe duped by these acts as well.

So as I understand it, this is the way it works. Stormy Daniels is going to make some problems for Trump. Trump wants to pay her the $130,000. Michael Cohen pays the $130,000. Then he gets reimbursed by Trump.

Trump signs a check. The check says it's for legal services. That is falsifying business records. Bragg is claiming that if you falsify business records, for the purposes of covering up a crime, then that's not a misdemeanor, that's a felony. What I think people don't understand is what you just laid out is what essentially is the crime that was covered up.

Because I guess misleading voters or willfully with knowledge, trying to suppress information from voters, is a crime which would rise all of this. stuff to felonies. I guess one question is, I watched Bragg say that he had new information because the prior DA, the prior his predecessors did not want to prosecute. And of course, the Justice Department kicked it off, did want to prosecute. Bragg says they brought this case when it was ready. He had new information or new evidence that made. That him want to bring the case. Do we have any idea what that new evidence is? What the prior DA

didn't have that Bragg has now? We don't know specifically what that new evidence is. I know he teased at it and we're kind of eager to find out what that is. But we know from the way this investigation unfolded that David Pecker, who was the head of the company that owned the National Enquirer at the time, he came in and testified early on and then came back right toward the end of the investigation. And he was involved in. the transactions involving Carrie McDougal, who is the Playboy model, former Playboy model, and then also this doorman. The Doorman really wasn't part of this conversation. You know, we heard a lot about Stormy Daniels and we heard some about Karen McDougal. So there

may be something there. Also, there's a question about how much information has been gleaned from Donald Trump's tax records and other financial records that were obtained through a long fight in the Supreme Court through a subpoena. a process that happened under the predecessor and now, you know, Alvin Bragg's office has been evaluating those records. There may have been information that came out also in some fashion through the investigation of the Trump organization, which was a convicted in December of tax fraud in an unrelated case involving perks they gave to their executives. Now, in that case, we saw examples of Donald Trump's personal general ledger, which is where he keeps all the records

like legal expenses for Michael Cohen. In that case, they talked about how Donald Trump wrote checks for one of his top executives to pay private school tuition for his grandkids, right? But if you already have those ledgers, you also then have an opportunity to look at other transactions that may have been mischaracterized. I don't know for a fact what the new evidence is,

but I'm just thinking about the scale of this investigation and how bringing fresh eyes with Alvin Bragg's office, with Matthew Calangelo, whom he hired to run this investigation, they could be looking at some things that maybe, you know, some leads that weren't turned over, so to speak. Okay, Michael, so we have a lot of time between the next time we see Trump potentially in court. It's April.

December right now is when the next hearing is said, which really is a long time. However, you were in the courtroom, and, you know, we've, you know, been reading up on it as well as far as this gag order, which seems to be that's been placed on Trump to not do anything on social media. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In regards to inciting a protest, go ahead. So just to for clarity, there was, there is no gag order. The judge said he is not inclined to issue a gag order. And he gave two reasons for that. First, free speech rights of any American.

And also he cited, you know, the fact that Donald Trump's running for president makes it even more complicated to restrict what he says. But what he did do is he urged Trump's lawyers, and he also urged prosecutors to do this. Both sides. To remind Trump and to remind witnesses, people involved in the case, to be mindful of rhetoric that could inflame violence or civil unrest.

So he didn't exactly say don't do it, but he kind of strongly cautioned like a, you know, like a parent saying, hey, hey, you know, don't, you know, you should really, really think twice about doing that before you do. nothing legally binding, but certainly if it continues, there could be other remedies, including possibly a gag order. And that's my question.

And thank you for clarifying that. Immediately after, he took to, you know, his social media and went out there and started, you know, raging on social media. And although he's not specifically, you know, saying things to calling for a certain action, his words are, we know, hold a lot of power. with his fan base. How likely do you think it is that based on what he's doing, this is just right the day after,

and there's a lot of time in between, that this will ramp up to a level where the judge might call them back in, might potentially issue a gag order, or accelerate the case. I know that there's been some discussion surrounding that. And I know that Trump's people are trying to get pushed back even past December,

because obviously primary and, you know, all of that. But how likely is it that this guy? case could be accelerated? I don't think it's too likely at this point that we'll have it accelerated only because there are certain requirements of evidence being turned over and then the sort of pretrial fights over motions. But I could see a scenario potentially where there are restrictions placed on what Donald Trump is able to access in terms of that evidence.

They've actually talked about that already. The prosecution wants an agreement. They're working on it with the defense where Donald Trump would be barred from post- evidence to social media or disseminating it to the media. Their fear is that that could taint the jury pool, that could intimidate witnesses. So we're going to see that as a preliminary step to kind of remedy things. And then also if this rhetoric continues to escalate and if it's people involved in the case, Donald Trump or others, I could see a scenario where the judge does crack down on that. We've heard already that there have been death threats and other vile

comments left for the judge, left for his staff. Donald Trump, you know, hours after sitting in the courtroom, quietly listening to this morning, this admonition, was on the stage at Mar-a-Lago talking about the judge. And then from practical purposes, the judge has a lot of control over what happens in this case. So if you talk to lawyers, you know, they may say, hey, you want to be on his good side. Not that the judge should hold things against the defendant, but that certainly makes things more awkward when you're going after him and his family and riling up your base.

Yeah, I'm wondering one potential roadblock for theirs that if Donald Trump is talking in his speech, it's political speech, that is the golden goose of American free speech. That is the most, it's probably the most protected form of speech

is political speech. And so the judge might have, maybe be a hard time deciding which parts of Trump's speech are worth censuring, if you will, and which parts he has to let go in order to recognize a free speech. But if not, it would be kind of easy, you know, you go on there talking around, gag order, contempt, we can jail, boom, boom, like it could be really bad. If it was any one of us, it would be a lot easier.

This is where being a former president comes in handy. My last question for you is about David Pecker. now Michael Cohen in this situation is an easy slam dump for bragging those guys Michael Cohen is going to get on the stand and going to say whatever bragging those guys want him to say he's had a long-running feud with Donald Trump ever since he was his lackey back in the day Michael Cohen is going to say Donald Trump told me to do this Donald Trump knew I know that he knew boom the question about Michael Cohen is

credibility people know that he doesn't like Donald Trump people know that he's lied before people know all this David Pecker is a little bit different. As the head of AMI, which by the way, you guys, AMI just let you guys know what it is, men's fitness, Muslim fitness, flex, pregnancy, the National Enquirer, the Sun, Weekly World News, the Globe, Star.

That's the company that's in the middle of this kind of scheme or whatever, allegedly to help Donald Trump. His testimony, in my opinion, could be very consequential because he doesn't have the same credibility concerns that Michael Cohen would have in terms of, you know, testifying for or against the president. Is there any sort of understanding? Okay. And I know catch and kill well. I used to work at TMC. Is there any, is there, is there, is there, is there any, uh, understanding of where Pecker's mind is on this and what the prosecution and or Trump's

defense is expecting him to do? It's a good question. We don't have a lot of window into Pecker's mind. We know that he's been before the grand jury that's investigating, that was investigating this case and that returned the indictment. We saw him early on in this probe in January and February. And then we saw him again sort of as a rebuttal witness, as a last witness for the prosecution to make their case before the indictment was handed up.

Pecker is an interesting character because he was a very close friend of Donald Trump's, and he went through these great lengths to use his publication to bolster Donald Trump's image and also to help hide these negative stories. And that's been laid out in the Michael Cohen case and the agreements that they had. But AMI, and perhaps to an extension, David Pecker, signed a non-prosecution agreement with federal prosecutors over the Michael Cohen matter. Michael Cohen matter really was a campaign finance case because those transactions were like, like as if you donated $130,000 to Donald Trump's campaign, right? You were, you were helping

fund the campaign by, you know, paying somebody off. That's the allegation. So by doing that, AMI and perhaps by extension, David Pecker have agreed to cooperate fully with investigations into matters related to this. So that could be the hammer that prosecutors have on David Pecker to ensure that he cooperates, to ensure that he testifies, and to ensure that that explosive kind of testimony about this agreement is what is heard in court.

Last question before I leave. What's with that hat in the background right there? That hat with the red A on. What is that? What is what you got going on? This, there's two one is like an old bear

Bryant like a houndstooth hat and the other one's an Alabama hat I just throw a bunch of stuff on that shelf why do you have that? You know what I'm asking? I went down there about 10, 15 years ago I had an uncle that went to Alabama and he was honored in their RTC program

and I don't know it just looks cool so I was like you know what? Go roll tide. Yes, it's going somewhere, Michael. Oh, wow, wow, wow. Congratulations on the national championship. Women's championship. Very nice.

Michael, you see that? That's what I'm talking about. Now, we want to have you back because you just did a 10 out of 10 bankup job on making our audience knowledgeable. I want you to look. It's all about LSU, Mike. Okay, it's all about LSU. I can get on board with Go Tigers. Okay.

I'm with you. I love it. Mike, I thank you. so much. What a compelling, twisty, turning set of events here. Donald Trump

in diet, historic. We know more than we knew before. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today on higher learning. We're going to come back with something else on the other side of this break, guys. Hold on time. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable

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Your guy is back at it. Your cousin is back at it. All right. So Van Jones. talked about the scene regarding Trump as he was leaving the courthouse. He's actually entering the courthouse.

And this is what Van Jones had to say on scene. He looks sad. He looks sad. He looks like the weight of it's hitting him. And, you know, just as a human being, I don't take joy. I don't like the prison system.

don't like what it does to people. I don't like this process. So I don't take any celebration and seeing him looking that way. He looks at it. Now, doesn't mean that accountability is not owed. We don't know what he's going to be charged with. There's a lot more. But at that moment, that is not a conqueror. That is a granddad having a very bad day. Rachel, did you have a problem with that characterization of Donald Trump? Did I? I honestly thought, I was like, no, no, no way. No way he said that. We must be taking this out of context. I. tried to give Van Jones the benefit of the doubt. Then I went and I watched it and I said,

no, that's what he said. And no, I don't feel that way, the same way as Van Jones. And did you see what he tweeted after? No, I didn't see that actually. So afterwards he tweeted, because obviously he saw all the backlash that he was getting in regards to that comment.

I don't know what he thought people were going to say. I guess because nobody checked him on that panel. he was sitting on, he thought it was okay. So he takes a Twitter and he says, and I quote, I've spent 30 plus years fighting for criminal justice reform. I never want to become desensitized to the human reality this system has on individuals, families, and communities, no matter who the defendant happens to be. That is a really broad statement to make in regards to fighting for criminal justice system and lumping in defendants such as former president Donald Trump. So is that the same thing that you apply to January 6th in those defendants?

Is that the same sort of thinking that you apply to a George Zimmerman? I mean, take your pick. That makes absolutely no sense. So because you've been fighting for criminal justice reform, that mean, and you don't like the system as it is, that means. that means that you're supposed to have empathy for every single defendant who happens to be on trial.

This is selective criminal justice reform. I'm sorry, Van Jones has a hard-on for the Trumps and that entire family. And I am sick of us pretending like, oh, he just, he misspoke or, oh, he just put his foot in his mouth. No, this is a man who the Kushner called for him to be removed from CNN. And then less than a year later,

we're seeing Van Jones sitting next to Jared Kushner and buddying it up with their family. And there's been some sort of behind-the-scenes revolution to where now Van Jones keeps taking it upon himself to speak out on behalf of Trump. It's like that mean, nobody, nobody, nobody, Van Jones wants to speak out on Trump. You can't help himself.

So I want to understand, seriously, because it's almost as if, okay, so there's two things. So either it's what you say it is, which I feel like most people think that it is. Or there's like, is Van Jones in his own way trying to scare us out of our echo chamber in some way? Look, I'm going to do something right here, you guys. I agree with Rachel. I'm saying before y'all get all mad. Yeah, I'm over here shaking my head.

and start typing away. Before y'all get mad and start typing away, I agree with Rachel. It seems as if Van Jones has a very specific affinity for the Trump family, and we know this. We know he's been in pictures with Eric Trump. We know he worked very closely with the Trump family

and with Jared Kushner to get the first step act passed. So he might actually like these people, okay? Might like these people. But I'm going to attempt to do something right now for fun. this is an attempted bail shoot. I'm going to attempt to shoot Van Jones some bail right now. I'm going to do my best. I'm going to be.

You're going to be Van Jones. I'm going to, no. God damn it. You're being Van Jones. Go for it. I'm not being Van Jones. I'm going to be Van Jones-Lathen defense attorney. Give the people what they want.

I'm going to be Van Jones-Lathen defense attorney. I'm going to, Your Honor, I stand before Black Twitter with a client that seemingly has made a very egregious statement at a very critical time in American politics. It seems as if my client

emotionally sided with Donald Trump in a day that so many of you found to be joyous. I submit that what you saw from Mr. Van Jones wasn't empathy

that it was pity it was pity for a man who's reached the bottom of the barrel it was pity for a man who looked like a sad-ass

granddad whose I can't do it yeah you can't do it because one you make that a single act he's a repeat offender I would like to at this point introduce prior acts onto the record. Pity! This is a man who left Marlago,

flew on a private plane, landed, and was escorted to a tower that bears his name in the penthouse. What pity! So, okay, so it's obvious. All right, so cool. I tried it. It didn't work. I can't do it. But so Ben Jones just, I mean, look,

I'm not, Van Jones doesn't give a fuck what, does he not care what, he doesn't care. He doesn't care. Look, once again, guys, I'm going to say something. A lot of the work that Van Jones has done in criminal justice reform is like super duper essential. It's super duper essential. But if, and I have communicated before, we had an argument. and stuff, and I've been, whatever.

But if I could talk to him at this particular point, the question that I would ask isn't about Trump. It isn't about criminal justice. It's about black people. And it's about, the question I would ask, Van Jones is, why does he feel so comfortable?

Or not question. I wouldn't ask it that way. That's the best way to ask him. I would ask him, does it bother him that he alienates such a noteworthy swath of black people? Or people on his political side of the aisle with what seems to be a weird sort of devotion to President Trump. Does it bother him at all that he alienates people that in some way he disconnects with those. people over something that really is

inconsequential to him. It would be one thing if Donald Trump were still president and Van Jones needed Donald Trump in some way to get his criminal justice reform legislation through. I would almost go, okay, well, that's what politicians and political operatives do. But at this point, that's not even the case. The guy's not the president anymore. He's just another fucking criminal. You know what I mean? And I don't, it's just I don't know.

Sonny Hosten asked him this when they had him on the view. Basically, you know, you've lost a lot of respect and trust from black people and, like, prominent black people. And he said to her, that's not true. So what I think it is is he's surrounded himself with people who are praising what he does. I think he prides himself on believing he walks in the middle. He can talk to people on both sides. And you can't.

Especially in this political climate, you got to pick a side. It is impossible to do it. And the more you keep walking this so-called line, the more you keep stepping on the wrong side of it, because that's all I keep seeing. And I'm not taking away from what he's done in the past, but just because you have done things that are amazing for criminal justice reform doesn't give you the excuse to then say whatever it is

that you want because it's harmful. And when Fox News starts playing your videos as quotes, it's a problem. You got to look at yourself and say, hey, I'm doing something wrong and stop listening to all the people you surround yourself with

who aren't holding you accountable or in check. Well said. All right. On the other side of this break, after Rachel just flamed up Van Jones. It's not me. I don't feel that way.

I don't care. On the other side of this break, On the side of this break, we have a delightful interview with Will Packer, the producer, of a movie that I saw and enjoyed very much called Praise This, which is now available on Peackeye. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Cream. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch Window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies.

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Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, cream drips, yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, you guys, we have a real, real, real special guest.

When I say real, real special guests, I mean, somebody I have a great deal of respect for for many reasons. It's on the podcast right now. We'll pack it. I know y'all know the name. I know y'all know the game. Y'all know the movies. There is a new film called Praise This,

which is out right now on Peacock as we speak. I've seen the movie. It was delightful. I enjoyed it. Rachel, did you hear that? Yes. He doesn't use that word too often will. It doesn't feel like a valetive word.

I didn't know what you're in the arsenal. I like that. We got Will Packer join us today. Will, how you doing, brother? Man, man, come on, brother. First of all, you know that the respect is mutual, and I appreciate you taking some time to have me on. I really do.

Thank you, Rachel. Good to see both of y'all, fam. I'm happy to be here. So I'm going to get this out of the way right now rather than do it at the end. Okay. All right. Because we're going to talk about praise this. We've got other questions for Will.

Yeah. But I'm going to get this out of the way. Oh, boy. You said that twice, Rachel. I know. I'm like, what is it? Okay. So I'm going to go back.

back to the year of 2019. I got fired from TMZ in a very public way when everybody saw. Now, from the outside looking in, it doesn't look like my career skipped the beat, right? Because I move on to the next thing

and I keep going, I keep going, I keep going. However, during that time of my life, there was an incredible amount of fear. I was scared. I was already going to leave TMZ. only had about six weeks left there. However, with the way I left, I was wondering who would want to be in business with Van, who would continue how I would move on with my life and the people that I have to support.

Will Packer gave me an opportunity. Will Packer put me right back on TV on a show called Central Ave. Right. where I got a chance to do my thing, my band thing on the street and then even into the pandemic, like when I was doing it from here. And the fact that I got another opportunity that I was back on television, that I was back employed again, took so much stress off me, both financially, and mentally and it was a decision that was made by Will Packer and Shayla

and the people over there that run your shop. And I've never got a chance to tell you how much that meant to me in a real way and how important that wasn't just to me but to my family. So I have a great deal of respect

for you for more than that. But thank you, Will. Wow. Wow. My brother, I receive all of that, man. I really, really do. I so, I appreciate that. I acknowledge it. I'm just going to say, give us a moment here, Rachel. Let me talk to my breath. Oh, no, please take it. I'm just going to say black man to black man is what we're supposed to do. You are an asset. You have always been somebody that was right at the center of the culture, right? As you know, there was. were people that watched that previous show that you were on that platform because of you, because you were the voice and the only voice that was authentic to the culture. So for me to have a platform and have the ability to then reach out to someone that I always felt prior to the exit was undervalued on that platform, that is what I'm supposed to do.

Like, you know, you heard that saying, I didn't work this hard to work this hard, right? That's, you know, Puff loves to say that all the time. I didn't work this hard to not use my power in the way that I use it to help. And I don't mean like hand up, hand out. I mean to help all of us as a community and as a culture because you then elevated my show, right? You then took me. I had a show that was in a new space for me. It was a Fox syndicated show and I need somebody.

I needed somebody with that authenticity that you brought. The thing that we can do that we don't do enough of, in my opinion, in the community, and I'm specifically the black community, but this serves for all marginalized communities, anybody that's outside of the traditional power structure. We don't do is sharpen each other. The iron can sharpen iron if you allow it to, right? And if I don't see you, and you and I, you know, I'm producer, you are definitely talent. you have, you know, a lot of different things that you have, a lot of different things I do.

But too often what I see us do is go at each other as if I can't win if you win. I can't, okay, all right, vans off that show. He's out of the way. So let me see what I can do, right, to take advantage of the fact that he's not, that's not what we need to do. We need to be lifting each other up. I don't mean that in some kind of just really corny, earnest kind of way. I mean, for the business of it, y'all, the business, right? Like, I get business.

I make the content I make, I'm proud of, not ashamed. of it. I do it. I make popular content. I make content. I'm trying to reach a broad range of people. But I understand the economic imperative upon which we all have to operate, especially within this industry. And so I also understand that other people not valuing the culture is an opportunity for us to do it. So that's all I will say about that. I appreciate you saying it. It was what I was supposed to do, and it worked out for both of us. So just proud to be back here rapping with you. I appreciate you. I didn't, Rachel, I didn't know where he was going. Where he said, let me get this out the way. I didn't either, but man, I know that wasn't

directing specifically at me, but I needed to hear that. That was beautiful, beautiful and meaningful. And I love that. And I love that we just had that moment here on the show on higher learning. And it makes me think, Will, for you, everything that you're saying is so true. And it's so what we need. just period overall, but specifically in our community. And I'm wondering, who did that for you? You talk about sharpening each other? Who was that person or people for you? Yeah.

Very clearly. For me, it was the Hudd and Huddling brothers. Reggie and Warren, Warren, Warren. Hold on two seconds out. I'm sorry. Close this, though. See that glare right there? I'm proud of God.

I can't be a producer and have my backdrop. I can't be have all. that shy. Sorry, guys. Apologies on my end. So that's a good question, Rachel, because none of us, none of us are islands. And I am not so naive as to think that my success is because I'm so amazing and I just do it all on my own and I just got it all figured out, not at all. I had opportunities that that I got. And one of the first ones that comes in mind are the Huddling brothers who gave me my first internship straight out of college, right? I went to FAMU, very, very proud HVCU grad,

family Rattler in the house. And I graduated and then got an internship with the Huddling Brothers on a movie that they were doing that was called Rye. It was called I-95 at the time. It was released. It was called Rye. I saw Rye.

Remember that joint? It was like a movie about a bus trip, a bunch of kids got on the bus. I saw it in the theaters. Yeah. They went to the bus. Yeah. I went to the entertainer.

Absolutely. Job with the school. God bless him. So I was the lowest on the totem pole on that move. Right. I was the guy that had to get the coffee for the camera department. I was in the camera department. PA they called me, but really I was the intern's intern. And so my job was to make sure that the cable, because it's back before wireless, the cable that went from the camera to the director's

monitor never got tangled. That was my job. This is, we talking like big sexy stuff, y'all, okay? That was my job. Whenever the director was, I had to move to monitor and I had to hustle. And I had people on that set that treated me like I was the lowest person on that. I'm not going to let's. And they treated me like, why are you here? You're in my way. You're not. It won't ever be nothing.

And I had some other people that treated me with respect and treated me like, you know what, I see you out here working hard. Keep grinding. And the Huddling brothers who gave me that opportunity, I remember having a conversation with Warrington Huddlin who pulled me to the side to say, I see you. I see what you're doing. Keep going. Keep going.

Keep striving. He gave me that little piece of word. Now, I wouldn't be me if I didn't take that opportunity to pitch the great Warrantton, because I was on his set. And I had made my little movie called Chalkin City. And I said, Warrenton, I so appreciate you. Thanks for the opportunity. Hey, I got a movie and I shot it at FAMU. And I showed him my little videotape, my VHS that we had gotten into Blockbuster.

And he said, okay, whoa, I'm going there. He said, I didn't know where you were going at first when you said you had a movie. He said, now I'll take this. He said, now the movie probably is not any good, brother. I'm going to be honest. He said, Warren, you need to see it yet. He said, well, but it's your first movie. He's probably not that great.

He said, but that's not the point. The point is that you have something that you have done. He said, in this industry, everybody's talking about what they're going to do, what they're about to do, what their plans are. 90% of people in this game are talkers. Don't be a talker, be a doer. And you already are hitting the game because you've actually gone out and shot something. So it was amazing advice I got from him. And it was an opportunity that he and his brother gave me to come in and see how a quote-unquote real Hollywood movie

had worked because I had only done Chocolate City, which was shot as students that fam knew to that point. So I want to ask you something about praise this. So going into praise this, I, and it's a weird question, going into praise

this, I look at the movie, it's younger, it's got Chloe and Drewski my man, MacWiles, shout out Mac Wiles. Shout out, Matt, it's got, and it's about the church, and I'm looking at the movie, and I'm a Catholic, right?

And I'm a little older. And I'm thinking this movie isn't really for me. And then I watched it and I liked it. I liked it a lot. Why? Why do you think a guy like me, 42-year-old guy who's never been on a praise team, got shuffled between two different churches?

Why did this movie like make me feel good and delight me? Yeah, man, you know, I appreciate you saying that because it was very intentional. That's what we were going for. When I was pitched this movie by a young executive named Antoine Jenkins, and he was working for Tim Story at the time. Great director, Tim's story, Tim and I have collaborated on a lot of things, ride along, think like a man, we made those movies. And Antoine, Ajax, we called him, came to me and pitched a movie about competitive praise teams.

And I got it. I like it. You know, I always, I enjoy a movie like Pitch Perfect. But my daughters never watched Pitch Perfect. They just weren't, it didn't connect with them. It didn't engage, right? I made a movie called The Gospel before. I grew up in the church.

I enjoy fake-based movies. I am a person of faith. The gospel did well for me. It was one of my first movies. It was actually Idris Elba's first theatrical movie after The Wire. So a little trivia right there. I know that. And I'm a Southern preacher.

I know that. tell you why I know it right after you're finished. Okay, okay, I'm trying to know. So basically, when he pitched this movie, I was like, I like that, but I don't want to do a church movie, right? So this speaks to why I'm thinking, Van, that it might have connected with you in a surprising way. Because I actually wanted to make a movie.

I took the same model that I did what I made Stomp the Yard. You guys remember Stomp the Yard. Hollywood did not want to make Stomp the Yard. Okay, I wanted to make a movie. A HBCU campus, I wanted to highlight black and Greeks, you know, fraternies and sororities. And Hollywood was like, ah, we don't really get that. We don't really know what that is. Why are there ABCUs?

You know y'all can go to white schools, right? What's happening? So I couldn't get anybody to finance that movie until I came back to them. I said, hey, what about a dance movie? You guys like dance movie? That's a genre that's successful and that is profitable. And I got interest to make a dance movie. I made that under the guys in the dance movie.

everybody in with the great dancing and you remember Columbus short on his head, Chris Brown dance and all that. And then within that, you learned about HBCUs and fraternity and sororities. That was what I was trying to get out of it. I said, I want to do the same thing with this movie. You're going to come in and the music's got to be banging. So you saw a band, I got Beyonce and Drake, Magnus Stallion, mixed and messed up with gospel lyrics. I did all that, right? And it's good and it's fun and it's funny. But along the way, I wanted you to learn about faith and spiritual. because Chloe's character has lost her way, doesn't have a relation with God, doesn't want one. And that relates to a lot of people. A lot of people who didn't grow up

in the church, like maybe you did Van or maybe I did. A lot of people that feels like church is not for them. But I'm somebody that believes that it's not an institution, a denomination, a person that's the gatekeeper for faith and spirituality. So I wanted to make a movie that did not feel like it was just for the church crowd and did not feel. like it was just for people that knew what that was, that got it. If you've never been a praise team, can't recite one verse. I wanted it to be something for you. And so if you came for, you know, the Drake Gospel Mashup, I wanted you to stay for a message about reconnecting with your faith and finding your own journey to your own personal spirituality. So I'm hoping that

some of that came across. That was our intention, Bid. Yeah. Oh, Ben, I'll let you say anything about issues before I go. So there was a Will Packer phase of my life before Will Packer became a go-to Hollywood producer. Okay? I'm going to tell you where it starts. I'm going to connect this to Idriselva. There was an actress that I was obsessed with in the late 90s. Her name was Gretchen Palmer.

Oh, wow. Rachel, do you know Gretchen Palmer? No, I've never heard that name. I feel like I probably only know her by face. Her name was Gretchen Palmer. And I was obsessed with Gretchen Palmer. Yes. So anything that Gretchen Palmer was in during that time, I would see it.

Yes. So I was at the video store one day and I rented a movie called Twan, was the name of the movie. And it was about you had to do, because I recognize Ken You Moore is in this House Watched up, Rachel, and then Gary. Okay, so I read and I'm like, I read the movie to see Gretchen in some situations,

whatever. And I watched it. I remember telling Ian, I was like, yo, bro. That shit was like good though. And Ian was like, he was like, what? Because my roommate Ian at the time, I was like, the movie, it was like

actually good, right? All right? So I was on bandwagon. watched the second one and all of that stuff. Later on, my first job, like my real first job on a movie set, was on a movie called The Reaping. And it shot in that rouge.

The gospel opened while we were shooting the Reaping. And Idris was on that movie. And so when I was, like, he would never remember me. So I was working on that movie. That was when I was the P.E. like kind of situation on the movie.

And then when I looked at the little thing that he had for the movie The Gospel, I was like, oh, I know that name. That's the same guy that did the Gretchen Park. So Rainforest Films, all of that stuff. I had watched all of those movies and seen all of those movies. And now years later,

Edress and I have the same manager. Yeah. I love that. You with a Ronde? Yeah, with Ronde. Shout out to the OG. Absolutely. Super,

super manager out in Hollywood. So a lot of people don't even know all, how long it took for you and how many films you actually made to get to the point to where your movies were the biggest, biggest thing. You made a lot of films and put in a lot of work.

And it sometimes seems like people don't give you or recognize you for the journey of your career. I appreciate that. You know how it is. We are a what have you done lately society. We are an immediate gratification, short-term memory society. Social media has made us like that. We all are like that. So a lot of people think that I just like, girls took it was my first movie. Yeah. Anything like I'm mad was the first movie. I take people, yo, I've done, you know, approaching 40 movies now. And I didn't do my first comedy until I was like 20 some movies in. People think, oh, yeah, that's what you do. You do the comedy.

I was like, bro, I was doing thrillers and gospel movies and erotic thrillers. Like, I was doing all kinds of other stuff. But that's the journey. That's part of it. And I would not be where I am today, were it not for me doing movies like Twaweb with Gretchen Palmer that made a young horny Van Lathie to do. That is the moor in the story, ladies and gentlemen. He was trying to see Gretchen Palmer get frisky.

And that is how he found. that we'll pack the channel on at that time. It's very fitting to other things that he has said on this show. That's not a surprise to you, Rachel. No, not at all. He's probably surprised that I've seen Twa. He's probably surprised about that. But I want to go back to praise this because what I think is beautiful

is that, you know, you speak out about your faith and being spiritual, which I was on the praise dance team. So I grew up back. Yes, very. Yes, man. I was, I'm always full of surprises. I grew up Baptist from Texas. Okay, okay. Not Southern Baptist, but Baptist, Mission.

You got to say that. That's a whole other world, but we get it, yes. Yeah, a whole other world. But I love that that's a part of you. And from the gospel to now this, you do these faith-based films. And I'm wondering, is there ever or has there been any hesitation on your part? Because maybe the industry isn't as accepting of faith or, do you just say this is me, this is who I am, and this is what I want to do?

Well, I'm at a position now where I can, you know, I can flex a little bit more than I used to, right, than I did when I was making some of my earlier affair. And I have a little bit more credibility. And so when I come in and say, this is what I want to do and this is why and this is the audience that I want to try to capture, folks listen to me because, frankly, because I've made money. and I've made money for Hollywood Studios. And when you do that, they say, all right, what do you want to do next? But that's the barrier you have to get to in order to have that level of credibility of Hollywood. So, you know, for me, I always look at it like, what is, what's the end goal? And does that justify the way that you got to get there?

And so, as I mentioned, I didn't want to do a movie that was like just in the church because I felt like, well, then I'll only get the people that relate to them. and I actually wanted to get something. I wanted to make something for the, the Cloys and Druskis and Quavos of the world that are out there that feel like, hey, church ain't for me. That's, you know, I don't feel welcome there. They don't play the music I like there.

And a lot of, especially you talk about 20-somethings, a lot of them are a little bit rudderless and faithless and don't connect with their spirituality because they feel like, well, I don't want to go to some mega church or some small church. I don't want to be sitting in some few. I don't, you know, I don't read the Bible, so that's not for me. And I'm here to say that it's bigger than that.

So it is, and by the way, Rachel, it's always a battle. So I'm not saying that, you know, I get in, I walk in Hollywood and say, give me money and they just hand over bags and cash. Like, it doesn't work like that. I got to pitch my projects. I got to tell them what the plan is. I got to cast them correctly and work on the scripts and address notes. I got to do all that stuff.

But if there's an area, a theme. a particular type of film that I want to make, I do get much more leeway now because I am established and have had some success with it. And a lot of it is instinctive too. I have to trust my instincts that I have honed throughout the years. Talk about Chloe a little bit.

This is an opportunity, as far as I'm concerned, from her, because I don't know that I've seen anything before this where Chloe is your singular, your singular central star. She is kind of driving this movie and she does a fantastic job. Talk about her star, where she is and like where you see her going. Because she's really compelling, does a really great job in this movie.

And she's, you know, a lot. Always talk about Chloe Bailey. She knows how to get people talking about her. And this movie was a great role for her. Yeah, I think so, man. Here's the thing about Chloe. We know she's talented. We've watched her literally grow up before our eyes.

It's been an interesting journey for her. Whenever you come in under that Beyonce umbrella, there's going to be a lot of good that comes with that and then a lot of not so great because of the pressure and the comparisons and all of that, right? She knows she's very talented. But that's not the thing that is going to make what I think is going to be a really, really successful career for her.

And I have been very fortunate to work with some folks at the beginning of their successes, right? I don't claim anybody's successes. I've worked with some very talented folks. They were talented, you know, before me, they'll be talented after me. But I have had the platform that has allowed some folks to reach the next level of success, I will say. And I'm very proud of that. She's somebody that I think will reach that next level. She's poised for it.

Here's why. Yes, her voice, she got the pipes, amazing. She has been working on her acting craft. She's been acting for a while. You will see if you see the movie. She does not drop the ball. I think she does a really, really good job with this character. Here's the thing that's going to separate her, her work ethic.

she works hard. That's the thing that you don't see. I've had the opportunity to work with Beyonce a few times what separates her. Yes, she's amazing. She's gorgeous. She's talent. She's all that.

She bust her ass. You're not going to out work deep. And B's at the point where she could just sit back and allow her time. I mean, I'm B. Stop playing. Right? She has such an attention to detail.

she has such a tremendous unbelievable work ethic. And I see that in young Chloe Bailey. That's the thing. Even right now, you know, I joke with it on the desk. You got 17 projects out right now. I forget which one is praised this, all right? Make sure you get mine in the mix. You got the album.

You got a swarm. You got the tour, you know. But the reality is that she is willing to do what it takes. And those are the folks. and you guys know you're in this business with me. The most successful people aren't always the most talented. They're not always the ones that walk in the door with the most money. They're not the ones that have got the resources and the connections all the time.

The most successful people in this business are the ones that work the hardest. And that is what she does. She is an incredibly hard worker. She has a tremendous work ethic. That's what I think is going to celebrate her. But all that being said, she's super talented. You know, you know, you've got to have that. But, you know, you've heard the saying that hard work beats talent,

the talent doesn't work. So we work in the industry where there's a lot of talented people that don't want to put the work in. Y'all know that. Very true. Will Chloe be in Girls' Trip 2? Ooh, get right to it. The direct question. What would Chloe do in Girls' Trip 2, Rachel?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, she could be added into the friend group. She could be a little sister of someone. I was going to say she wouldn't be in the friend group, right? She would be, because she is a different generation than my amazing girls' trip, ladies. So she'd have to be the young sister, maybe the niece, the, you know,

or maybe, maybe, you know, like a little film fatale situation. Somebody's man got their eye on her. That's funny. That's funny. It's funny to throw her in there and throw her, you know, her and she's everyone on Chloe they love Chloe she's so it'd be funny to throw her in there to kind of throw the ladies off kilter a little bit that would be funny yeah yeah yeah yeah she walked in they don't like there's a scene and praise this way where uh one of the hating church

ladies see her walk in and say look at her with her smat i ain't had no key in stomach like they have a little joke like that you can play something like that i don't know rachel that's a good idea we we're working on the script for girls trip right now uh Bena, Barris, of course, and Tracy Oliver are in the lab right now as we speak working on the sequel script. So you might have put an idea in my head, Rachel, I'm not going to lie. So if it happens, y'all will know where it came from, higher learning, baby. If you had to anticipate a release gear for a girl's trip to just, you're not, it's not seem it. What would you say if you had to anticipate a release year?

Well, you guys know how long these things take. I'm working on this script now, and that takes a while. You figure you can go into production probably like top of next year, earliest maybe. You got to check the ladies' schedules. So then you're talking about earliest would be the end of next year. So like I'd say you're looking at late 24, perhaps more realistically sometime in 25. And I'm just, you know, again, don't hold me to it. Don't quote me.

but just the way the typical cycle kind of works, that's a fair range. Right. Do you anticipate producing the Oscars again? Never. No interest whatsoever. Why? Why is that?

Because I've done it. I've done it. And this has nothing to do with this lap. Here's the thing. I actually turned down producing the Oscar for several, several years before I agreed to do it. Oh. I had been approached prior to.

And what people outside of that world don't really recognize is how much, how labor intensive it is to produce a show like that. And I knew it. And I kept saying, you know, I appreciate it. I'm flattered, but I don't, I don't have time. And that was true. I didn't. But one of the things that I say when I, like when I speak to people,

people, especially when I'm speaking to young people, I tell it to my own kids. I say, do the thing that scares you the most. What are you running from? Hit it head on and go out and do it. And I had to look myself in the mirror. I said, you know, keep turning down these Oscars. Is that the thing that's scaring you? Like, you've got to hit this head on, Will. You're never going to not be busy. And so I agreed to do it, of course, the 2022. And it was an incredible experience. It really was. but man, it's like producing 10 movies at once. It is unbelievable how much goes into a show like that. And well before the show even happened, I said, okay, all right.

It's funny because I actually called up. Reggie Hudlin had done the show before, speaking of the Hudlin brothers. Jesse Collins had been a part of a producing team that had done this show. I call a couple other people, and they all said, oh, yeah, you should do it. Yes, absolutely. do it. I was about halfway in. I called them all and I said, I thought we were friends. Why in the hell didn't you tell me how crazy this shit was? I literally called. I said, what? I thought you were my guy. I knew halfway through, I was like, okay, I would never do this again.

Here's the thing. It's the thing that you do when you are done with your active Hollywood career. It's the thing you do at the end, like for legacy. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, I've made the movies. I'm slowing down. Before I retire, let me do, you know, this last thing to put the perfect period on a career, right? You don't, I don't advise it for people that are as busy as I am with everything else I got going on. Because I basically had to shut a lot of that down.

I got a great team that kept stuff going. But my personal focus was on that Oscars for a good, you know, seven, eight months. That's a lot of time for somebody in my position. So I've done it. I still remain very proud of that show. But no, there's not a blank check that would give me back to do that again. I'm done. All right.

We got to let Will Packer go. He's a busy man. We appreciate the time that you made for us today, brother. I remain in all proud and indebted to you. Like I said before, man. Praise this is out right now on Peacock. Go watch it. I'm not selling wolf tickets.

The movie is a whole lot of fun. My guy, VL, said it's delightful. Like, I'm putting that on a testimony. You know what I'm saying? Variety, provocative. Hollywood reporter, hard hitting. You know what I'm saying? New York Times, amazing music.

Van Lapen. Delightful. That's what I want. I got that. I got the endorsement I need. I'm running with that, y'all. Thank you, Will. I appreciate y'all.

Thank you so much. You too. Take care, y'all. All right, great conversation with Will. Yeah. I just love that moment y'all had off the top. You don't always get to thank people who help you out. You don't always get those full circle moments.

So, you know, glad you did you ever, you ever thank Soup Kitchen? Um, let's move on. Is Soup Kitchen, is Soup Kitchen your, Will Packer? God No. But that's what people would like to think he gave her everything that she had. Why do they say that?

He's the host of the show. He gave her everything. It's so weird when they say that people think that your Will Packer is soup kitchen. That's wild, babe. All right.

You remember immature? Remember the Marcus Houston Constantly I used to walk around singing all that because her name's Constance

What were that names? It was Romeo Batman and who? What was the third one? Oh shoot Romeo Batman Wait because Romeo

Batman Oh man Marks Houston was Marcia William Romeo Batman LDB

LDB LDB and little drummer boy Romeo, Batman, and LDB Because it was two different Remember Field of Flow Field of Flatlow Don't take you

Okay, anyway Immature, I had Marcus Houston in it Marcus Houston went on to have a career, a successful career as a solo artist And Yes. What?

What? Oh no, I just realized Stopped the yard Marcus Houston. It's Marcus Houston. One of Will Packers' One of Will Parks movies. And he also had a song that I loved at the time.

And it was called Off in the Club. Remember that? Oh, he had the song I used to love. Yes, I remember that. But we're talking about solo. He had the song I loved called Naked. Yeah, see, I didn't dig that song as much. Oh, I loved it.

A lot of people like, off in the club was Marcus Houston and R. Kelly, which brings us to our next topic. Oh, shit. When did that come out? That was like 2002. It was 2002 and 2003, maybe 2003. Maybe 2004. But off in the club, Marcus Houston and R. Kelly.

And I just remember, that was the first time I heard R. Kelly call himself the Pied Piper. And I thought, bad nickname. That's interesting. Like, it came on, M.H. and Pied Piper. And I was like, the song was, it was a hit. Joe Buttons on us on that. So when you do it, when you do it, do it, do it, how you do it to me. You know, that was one of my joints, but this is a bad nickname, Farah Kelly, Piper.

He's a guy who plays his music and leads the kids away. Not great. Marcus Houston was, you know, embroiled in a little bit of the old Tweet's sphere controversy. Hmm, he is around my age. Okay. I'm either a year older or you're younger than Marcus Houston. I'm currently 42. He married his wife when he was 37

and she was 19 He met his wife He married his wife Sorry when he was 39 And she was 19 He met his wife when he was 37 And she was 17 All right

He He is promoting in an episode called uncensored, a TV show called Uncensored, where he went on to talk about what people think about his relationship with his wife. People joke about him and call him a creep. And the allegations that he groomed her for a couple of years before he put a ring on. Donnie run the clip. Me and my wife's situation is a little different, you know,

how we met, you know, through mutual friends and everything. that you know I went when I met my wife she was 17 so you know we had no really conversation and no really connection until you know she was of age and you know it's people don't understand and I got a lot of of course I got a lot of backlash for marrying someone that was 19 and you know when we did finally start to talk I was like this woman is like me and she was like when I would talk to her she just For one, we had a spiritual connection. And I feel like that's the most important thing.

We both love God. We both love Jehovah. And that was key. And being able to start being around her and talking to her and talking to like, we got it. We connected to music and, you know. All right. I cut all this shit off. Okay.

So he, so look, people were getting on Marcus Houston's ass. As they should. So you think it's creepy that Marcus Houston married his met his wife, my dick, Dickie when she was 17, and then married her when she was 19.

And you don't? I'm asking you. Do you think that it's true? Do you think that it's true? No. That he met her at 17 and they had no communication until she was 18 and got married at 19. So how'd you meet her?

You met her? Y'all didn't talk. Y'all didn't exchange. So then you you came back? I feel like if you saw her. her at 17 and you came back when she was of age and started up a conversation and connection. You would have said that. You met her at 17. You obviously had some type of attraction, connection, conversation with this woman. I saw somebody say, boy, they'll just sprinkle Jesus on it and try to make it all better. That was hilarious to me. So, so wait a minute.

So obviously I think that the age difference is really, really, yeah, we talked about the Koi Bailey thing. I think the age defense is kind of fucking crazy here, right? Like 37 and 17, when you meet a 17 year old girl, it probably shouldn't be anything in your mind like, yo, you know, whatever, she kind of whatever. I'm not in the position to meet a 17 year old. I mean, well, you're not Marcus Houston, you know? I'm not looking for it.

Right. Marcus Houston might be out here at the different video shoots and stuff like that and the girls are coming through or whatever. Who knows? So look, it's obviously, fucked up to me. Obviously. There are some people, though, that are going to wonder why it's fucked up to you

when you've shot so much bail to Larsa Pippen. Totally different situation. First off, Marcus is in his 30s. That's fast. They did not start any type of relationship until, let's just say he's 32.

I think that's what he is. Until he is 14 years past, 15 years passed, 17. Right. Okay. So this isn't even the same level. There was no... And actually, Larson has come out and said

that when she got with Scotty, it was towards the end of him playing with Michael and she never met the kid. That's a fucking lie. That's what she said. That's what she said. They won championships and the whole family was

at the parades. When they should get married? That's a fucking lie. That's what she said. Like, okay, so look. So were they on the same float? I don't know. That, I don't believe her for one second.

But even if she was, I don't care if they were sharing the same float. I don't care if he sat next to her. Years past. He's of age. So is she. She didn't, because what this looks like with Marcus Houston, it looks like grooming. I'm sorry, it's what it looks like. Looks like grooming.

This nigga might as well open up his own. hair salon. It is like, what the fuck? You can't accuse Larsa of that. You might be grossed out because her ex-husband played with his dad.

I can see that and she might have known him when he was a child. But you in no way can say that she grooms this person. And that's what it looks like with Marcus. It's too close. It's too soon. This girl's too young.

And I don't care how you try to twist and turn it. You were eyeing her when she was a minor. You can't confuse, you can't, you can't accuse her of grooming, but you can't accuse her of looming.

She loomed. For 15 years? She was waiting. What was she waiting for? She was waiting. She probably helped that bigger. No, Marcus Houston waited. No, Michael Houston was definitely waiting.

Well, we think. That's the story, too. We don't know. Okay, so what are the, said chances that you think that Marcus Houston was definitely talking to this girl when she was 17 18. What's the percentage? Yeah. 100.

What? You should, he should not have done this interview. There was no way around it. There was no way rounded. Take the L and live happily ever after with your child. There was no way around it. No way rounded. And, you know, I just got to be honest with you about something else. it would be, we would be completely, completely sort of irresponsible if we didn't at least discuss some of the talk, the innuendo and the rumors that have associated themselves with the whole crew over there at TUG. This is not me coming.

You know, this is Chris Stokes and all of this stuff. And these are child artists. And none of this stuff is provable or has been proven, should I say. But in the case of them, Marcus Houston, being with someone that's that young. Right. If you know the history and the allegations and the talk that's been surrounded by everything over there, it looks away. And it looks like something that he might have learned. That's not me saying that.

I'm just saying it's an extra added source of scrutiny for him. Doesn't look great. Don't do that if you can't. Just be quiet, Marcus. Also, don't give hand jobs to people that you knew when they were seven years old. So either way, it's back. You're talking about the other. Just don't have sex with and have oral with people that you knew before when they were kids.

You know, don't do anything. All right. Mailback. Mailback time. Time to read your letters and then we'll reply to them. Oh, it's mailback time. Write us with your queries and we'll chime in. All right.

First mailback question is from Gotas de Mayo. They ask, would you rather be trapped in a romantic comedy with your enemies or trapped in a horror movie with your friends? Horror movie with my friends. Yeah, I would too. Yeah, that's easy. War movie with my friends, you're going to figure that shit out.

Yeah, I don't want to be with my enemies ever. The romantic comedy is not going to make it any better. Cool, that was easy. Next one from Thai comedy, he asks, this one's kind of serious. How do you know when it's time to move on or it's just a rough patch in a relationship? I feel like the most.

moment you typed out that question lets me know it's time for you to move on from whatever it is. I do feel like I really feel like that. It got that bad. Were you asking advice from two people who are not relationship experts is bad? Well, who's a tie? Yeah. Tie. It's time to move on.

What I would say, tie, is this. This is what I would say, Ty. Is that relationships are about how much you want them sometimes. When you're in a relationship with somebody for a long time, there's this notion that you are going to be in love with them every second and every minute and every hour of every day. It's not true time. Sometimes you are in love and sometimes you are out of love. The question is, what's keeping you with someone during the times that you have actually fallen out of love? out of love with them. What's the basis and the foundation that holds you around? What makes you

stay in a working, committed fashion with someone in the times where you really don't feel that for them? If you can answer that question, it's probably going to be about more than your feelings. It's probably going to be about your life, the life that you've made, what you've sacrificed, what they've sacrificed, what you've built. And those to me are things. that can be re-access during the times that the feelings are linked. That's what I would say. Wow. I think we just developed a new segment on higher learning.

That was absolutely beautiful. It sounds like something my therapist has said to me, to be very honest with you. That was absolutely beautiful. I do feel like when you... A lot of times we know, like I'm thinking of the last relationship that ended, a lot of times you do know. But you've put so much blood, sweat, and tears into a relationship that it's so scary to think what's on the other side of it. So I would say, in addition to everything Vanga said, trust your intuition.

Like, don't stay out of convenience in a relationship. Don't stay because you're scared to leave. Or sometimes it's even scared to leave, like, family or friends that you've connected with. but just like the, not the loyalty, but just like the security, that's the word of for security that you have in a relationship. So I would just ask yourself within

and be honest with yourself. And at the end of the day, if it is, turns out, it doesn't work out, you're going to be okay. You're going to be okay. There is something on the other side of it. Yeah.

Like, just, you know, don't Marcus Houston's situation. All right, Donnie, I'm not, we're not taking me more mild back questions. I got to say something before we leave real quick. I have to make an apology, a very public apology

and apology that is important for me to make. I like to apologize to my grandmother, my momo, Geraldine Ellis. I'll tell you while I'm apologizing. In the wake of my Uncle David's death, I shared some stories about my Uncle David. Okay.

You guys have to understand for me. I'm talking to the audience here, not to my grandmother. All of these things to me are instances and things that have happened in my life. They have made up who I am. They have colored who I am.

I am ashamed of nothing. I am ashamed of no one. I accept my family and my friends for everything that they have done, the totality of who they are, all of their flaws, all of their strengths. I accept my father for who he was and who he wasn't. I accept my mother for who she is and what she wants,

what it is. When I talk about somebody, it comes with an acceptance for me of who that person was and the feeling and the knowledge that I love them anyway. So I don't care what you guys think about anybody that I'm talking about. I know these people for what they are and who they are and I love them anyway. That's the way I look at. What I didn't consider is how sometimes talking about someone reflects to the other people in my life who love them. Yeah. That was my grandmother's son.

She is in mourning. There are things about him that she just doesn't want to hear or talk about right now. And one particular story I told was something that my uncle and I joked about in the times that I talked to him before he passed away. It was top of mind and I said it. I won't repeat it now. I apologize to my grandmother for making her feel bad. I appreciate that she listens to this podcast. I appreciate that she's always interested

to everything that I do and I love her to the ends of the earth. Okay? And so I am sorry for that. I have my own memories with him. I have my own situations with him. I apologize. I will say this, though, out there.

I am who the fuck I am. It doesn't matter whether or not we share DNA or not. It doesn't. It doesn't matter. I am who I am. and there's absolutely nothing in my life. This goes out to the people who are closest to me.

Absolutely nothing in my life that's too precious for me to not express how I feel about it. Now there might be some things in your life that are that way, and I would never talk about those. But there's nothing in my life that's too precious for me not to share it. because everything that I don't get out fucking corrods my brain. It's a defense mechanism for me. So I want people to understand that don't mean any harm by this,

that I don't mean any injury by this, but this is who I fucking am. And if you didn't help build me, then I'm certainly not going to fucking let you help build me now. But as far as my grandmother goes, I apologize to her and what she said or or or how she felt has married

okay I'm sorry I love you mom I love you mama I love you Ebony get off my phone with the bullshit but I love you Evan all right

Rachel do you have Momo listens to the podcast Momo listens to everybody Momo is great Momo is great I love my grandmother wouldn't be who I was

without my grandmother and that's for sure. You got to expect the ally of the week? No, people have me very upset. Very upset. So I actually do have one. Okay.

I had one last week. Okay. This guy is great. So Candice Owens told a story. And the story was about her wanting to get her house decorating. Okay. She wanted to get her house

decorated by Celebrity House Decorator David Netta Okay Her husband, George Farmer, who is the CEO of Parlor, reached out to David Netto, who is a real regarded interior designer described by architectural

architectural digest. You guys, the Vibance is well enough. I'm sorry. As a true designer's designer. He does luxury homes all over the place. They reached out to him to get him to design their home. And this is David's reply. Dear George, thanks for your inquiry. I'd rather be hitting the ass with a wooden plank than ever go near either of you. Kind regards, David. That is the epitome of the unexpected ally. He might be unexpected ally of the power.

The year. Yeah. Love the year. He's way up there. This is a guy I've never heard of before. It's definitely unexpected. As a motherfucker said, he'd rather be whooped with a plank than go near either of you guys. All right.

That's my. That's hilarious. I'm glad I didn't have one because that's it. That's the one. All right. Take 10 caps off. Do not stop learning. I'm Van Lake Jee.

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.