Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Ye’s Apology, Latest Death in Minneapolis, and Aldis Hodge and Ben Watkins on ‘Cross’

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Van and Rachel react to Kanye’s apology in The Wall Street Journal, before discussing the violence in Minnesota. Plus, actor Aldis Hodge and showrunner Ben Watkins join to get us set for Season 2 of Amazon Prime Video’s ‘Cross.’ (0:00) Intro (0:24) Kanye’s apology (29:16) Another shooting in Minneapolis (59:09) Texas Senate debate (1:02:51) Chris Broussard’s bad tweet (1:05:23) Aldis Hodge and Ben Watkins on Season 2 of ‘Cross’ Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guest: Aldis Hodge and Ben Watkins Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. and Jade Whaley Social Producer: Bernard Moore Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How learning is on, is I Van Lakein Jr. And it's me, Rachel and then too. What's going on? Someone's in my eyes. Got it, got it, got it. Let's go.

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Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiator.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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See terms at Fanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. There's breaking news. Yeah, I saw it. I know where you're going. I haven't read the whole thing. Okay. So we're going to read it to everyone together. Okay.

Kanye West has taken out an ad, a full page ad, in the Wall Street Journal to apologize to the Jewish and black communities. Now, before this, he had done an apology with a rabbi in New York

and no one really knew. Yeah, I didn't see that. You can see he was talking to the rabbi. Some people thought he was a guy or whatever. But Kanye West has taken out a full page ad to apologize to the black and Jewish community. We're going to read the whole thing. It's going to be quick.

25 years of, ago, I was in a car accident that broke my jaw and caused injury to the right frontal lobe of my brain. At the time, the focus was on the visible damage, the fracture, the swelling, and the immediate physical trauma. The deeper injury, the one inside my skull, went unnoticed. Comprehensive scans were not done. Neurological exams were limited. And the possibility of a frontal lobe injury was never raised. It wasn't properly diagnosed until 2023. That medical oversight caused some serious damage to my mental health and led to my bipolar type 1 diagnosis. Bipolar disorder comes with its own defense system. Denial. When you're manic, you don't think you're sick. You think everyone

else is overreacting. You feel like you're seeing the world more clearly than ever, when in reality, you're losing your grip entirely. Once people label you as crazy, you feel as if you cannot contribute anything meaningful to the world. It's easy for people to joke and laugh at off, when in fact, this is a very serious debilitating disease you can die from. According to the World Health Organization in Cambridge University, people with bipolar disorder have a life expectancy that is shortened by 10 to 15 years on average and a two to three times higher all-cause mortality rate than the general population. This is on par with severe heart disease, type 1 diabetes, HIV and cancer,

all lethal and fatal if left untreated. The scariest thing about this disorder is how persuasive it is when it tells you, colon, let me sure I get this right. You don't need help. It makes you blind, but convinced you have insight. You feel powerful, certain, and unstoppable. I lost touch with reality. Things got worse the longer I ignored the problem.

I said and did things I deeply regret. Some of the people I love the most, I treat it the worse. You endured fear, confusion, humiliation, and the exhaustion of trying to love someone who was, at times, unrecognized. Looking back, I became detached from my true self. In that fractured state, I gravitated towards the most destructive symbol I could find, the swastika, and even sold t-shirts bearing it. One of the difficult aspects of having bipolar type 1 disorder are the disconnected moments, many of which I still cannot recall that led to poor judgment and reckless behavior that oftentimes feels like an out-of-body experience. I regret and am deeply mortified by my actions in that state, and I am committed to accountability,

treatment, and meaningful change. It does not excuse what I did, though. I am not a Nazi or an anti-Semite. I love Jewish people. To the black community, which held me down through all of the highs and lows of the darkest of times. The black community is unquestionably, the foundation of who I am. I am sorry to have let you down. I love us. In early 2025, I fell into a four-month-month-month-old long manic episode of psychotic, paranoid, and impulsive behavior that destroyed my life. As the situation became increasingly unsustainable, there were times I didn't want to be here anymore. Having bipolar disorder is not a state of constant mental illness.

When you go into the manic episode, you are ill at that point. When you are not in an episode, you are completely normal. And that's when the wreckage from the illness hits the hardest. Hitting rock bottom a few months ago, my wife encouraged me to finally get help. I have found comfort in Reddit forms of all places. of all places, I guess he means that kind of like I found comfort and redid forms of all places. Different people speak of being manic or depressive or speak in manic or depressive episodes of a similar nature. I read their stories and realized, I read their stories and realized I was not alone.

It's not just me who ruins their entire life once a year despite taking meds every day and being told by the so-called best doctors in the world that I am not bipolar, but merely experiencing symptoms of autism. Sometimes this is running on a little bit. I'm getting a loss here. My words, as a leader in my community, have real global impact and influence. In my mania, I lost complete sight of that. As I find my new baseline and new center

through an effective regimen of medication, therapy, exercise, and clean living, I have newfound much-needed clarity. I am pouring my energy into positive, meaningful art, music, clothing, design, and other new ideas to help the world. I'm not asking for sympathy or free pass, though I aspire to earn your forgiveness. I write today simply to ask for your patience and understanding as I find my way home. He signs it with love, Kanye Wes.

What was the conversation with the rabbi? And the conversation with the rabbi was just, there wasn't much substance to us. Not really. This is much more comprehensive in depth than the conversation with the rabbi. I was. By the way, to everyone, we appreciate you guys being here today. Obviously, we have a shit ton of things to cover today. Um, ice in Minnesota. We have all this Hodge and Ben Watkins from cross joining us today. We're going to cover the response to the ice killing in Minnesota. Uh, we're going to cover some other things. This just broke as it came across our desk. Sure.

So we're going to discuss this and then get into the show. I'm sure people want me to do an apology rating. I'm not. I'm not going to do one on this because he's talking in this letter, about his mental health. And, you know, the apology rating is something we joke, we make light with, but I don't want to do that when it comes to somebody's mental health. Two things I hold on to when I see this. I mean, obviously this is very detailed in a way that we haven't seen from Kanye West before. One thing he talks about in this letter is being committed to accountability, treatment, and meaningful change. and then he ends the letter with, he's not asking for forgiveness or a free pass, but he aspires to earn forgiveness. I think the most important thing that I take away from here is that he is sick,

he's admitting it, he needs help, and I wish him very well on that journey, and I hope that he achieves that because, as he said, this has impacted his life in every single way, not just professionally, but obviously personally. He's a father, you know, he's a friend. He has an ex-wife, like there, or no, and a new wife. What I'm saying? And a new wife. So this runs deep. What I will say is I do like that he says he's not asking for a free pass because I think

despite this letter, when you think about all the damage that he has done, even if he was in, you know, a bipolar state to Jewish community, black community and anybody else who felt offended, I think that people can accept what he's saying here and wish him well, but also the damage might be done to where they're also in their right to maybe move on from you know supporting him artistically in any kind of way I think both of those things can be true and you have to hold space for people who might say I appreciate this I really hope you're okay but for me too much has been done and I think that we have to at the same time wait and see what he does this is a great start we'll see what happens after um so we talked about

about this before about Kanye West will return. We talked about this. That was me having some fun with the idea that I think that there is a part of Kanye West, a large part of Kanye West, that wants to reenter mainstream society. He took himself out of it, really sought to redefine it, really in a way. But he wants to reenter it. Now, the reason why he wants to reenter it, if you take the cynical view of it is because that is the way he has always had the most influence been the most successful is a part of mainstream American society meaning not selling boutique clothes selling them with Adidas not having a small independent label where no one cares what you say but being on deaf jam universal Rockefeller all that stuff being someone

one who saturates people with ideas, music, thoughts, and culture, right? Being taken very seriously by a great many people. Maybe there was the thought by him at some point that that reputation was so durable that it could never change. And he tested the limits of that, and it did change. So maybe there's a cynical reason

that all of this is happening that he is trying to get back to sort of that level of admiration, execution and relevance. Maybe he doesn't like the wilderness as much as he thought that he would have liked it, right? And he's coming back. That was really what I was talking about before when I was saying Kanye Wes will come back, right?

I have talked to some people around Kanye West. This walk is real. Like this part of his life where he is seemingly trying to put it back together from people that I would know and trust this is real. This is actually this is real. This is him and not just him,

but the community of people that support him that are around him saying, hey, like save yourself, save the people around you, be who you want to be. So this is real. That will always, for me, elicit humanity. I'll always approach things

as a human person. I am someone who has looked at people in the eye that I've hurt and asked for more chances, asked to be redeemed. I've had people close to me that I've done the same. That is one thing. So anyone who feels that this is Kanye West reaching out, not as a musician or as a fashion person, fashion designer, or as a cultural figure, but as a human being,

and asking for some patience, guidance, love, or restoration. That's one thing. There's something else here, though, and this is a different lesson. And you can't have this conversation without talking about this. All right. What our culture is capable of doing? Black culture. Our culture.

Black culture. It is capable of making these Titanic heroes. I mean, people whose music and whose expression lives forever. And the reason why it is is because oftentimes that culture is seen as people speaking for a fundamental part of not just the American experience, but the world experience. I'm going to talk right now about how important black people are to the world that we've created. integral in their contribution, in their genius, in their understanding of the wilderness that they've existed in. And when you get this gigantic cultural perch and you use the tradition of the art that you're a

part of, the tradition of the dance, the understanding, when you use all of that to go and attain these riches, you know, this relevance. people expect protection from you and they have a right to. I agree. They have a right to expect protection from you because you're taking the tradition of their experience and you're really evangelizing with it. Even if you don't speak for them, they have the right to think that you're not going to speak against them. Not only did Kanye West run a file of that, he made Monty.

to eat the people that made him. He made monsters. Kanye West was part of the construction of Nick Fuentes. Kanye West was part of the construction of Candice Owens. Kanye West sought to reestablish Miloianopolis someone that the other side spit out. And while black people were going through stuff like George Floyd, while black people were going through stuff like maga trumpism and all that there was a

group of goals that congey west used our cultural gift to him used the power that we gave him he took it and he gave it to them that has to be undone it doesn't have to be undone it doesn't have to be undone for you to accept Kanye West or accept his walk as a human being. Not at all. To accept the fact that he's a human being and he's going through this, that doesn't have to be a calculus in that. But to accept him as a cultural figure that you would then empower again, he's got to choose a side.

And there's like legitimately no way around that. In order for to accept him as somebody who, who he's got to, I don't stand with Nazis. He's got to, I don't stand with anti-blackness. He's got to, I don't stand with that. He would have to choose a side. He would have to get back into not even sanity or not even health. He would have to be able to make people feel safe again.

That's a walk and a goal that he has to have. That's what should happen. You're so right in what you say. And that's why when I was like, it's not just what you say, it's how you do it. And I was about to ask you as you were talking like, what does that look like? What you explain? It's more than just him healing mentally, which of course we encourage and we support, but it is undoing the damage. And I was looking at, I hadn't read the letter, but I was briefly looking at some of the comments that people were saying. And it should be that he should be held accountable and people should be waiting for the actions. of him undoing that, but people are already forgiving and writing it off. But that's it right. No, no, no. I'm not saying it's not.

I'm saying what should happen is what you're saying. What I already see happening is an acceptance of this letter, which, again, people are going to handle it the way they want to, and moving on from that. And maybe not even fully capturing the things, because I don't even know if people are as well-versed at all the things. They might know the highlights and the headlines in regards to like slavery is a choice. You're back and forth with him at TMZ. But I don't know if they know about the Nick Fuentes.

I don't know if they are they in that entrenched. And so I just wonder, will Kanye do it? Because people are already moving on past it in what I see in the comments. Or do they even know? And they should know. And it's like, how do you make that connection? maybe he comes here and talks about it whatever.

Maybe he goes somewhere. Whatever. This, okay, a couple of different things. Number one, Kanye's politics are Kanye's politics. Like, you know, if that's one thing, like we're, we're, we're, I'm not. Can I just say one thing really quickly as you're saying this? I'm so sorry to interrupt me. But do you find yourself wondering who Kanye is?

because when I look at this letter and I look at, he talks about the accident, he's talking about something that has happened 25 years ago, he talks about not being diagnosed treatment, how that was like within him, and then how he once he was diagnosed, or it was told he was autistic rather than the bipolar and not getting the help, I find myself saying, well, who's Kanye? What does healing look like? What does it look like as him as an artist, as him as a public figure? I find my, I don't know. I don't, so, and I only said that because you were about to say Kanye's politics or Kanye's politics, but what are Kanye's politics?

Like, who, which, who is the real Kanye? Right. So what I'm, what I'm saying, I'm not interested really in his politics. I'm not, I'm not interested in, um, in his politics. What I'm interested in is his approach. Obviously, I'm not going to celebrate or contribute to anybody who I believe. believe it was like super maga. I believe that that is a

oppressive, racist, xenophobic American political movement. Okay. But what Kanye did was something that is different. Kanye's a fashion guy. And he thinks

of a lot of things in terms of fashion. And what he would do is make things fashionable or attempt to make them fashionable. See, what happens in fashion know a lot about this in a very fashion person. Okay. What happens in fashion is you take something that was last season, right? This before season before that, and you burn it, you throw it out.

One time I was watching this thing, it was talking about the fact that, you know, Louis Vuitton has to take all of the bags and the shoes and all of the belts and stuff like that and rip them up, burn them up. Burn them up so that they're not anywhere else that, you know, you can see regular people wearing them. They don't want their stuff in Louis Vuitton office. They don't want their stuff in the Louis Vuitton outlet. They don't want that. What's fashionable is powerful. What's not fashionable must be destroyed and you must move on to something new. Kanye West treated black culture, the power of black culture, and the safety of black people like it was a piece

of fashion. And what he did was he took it and he sought to shred it and he sought to burn it. And then he sought to make something else fashionable. He sought to make Nazism fashionable. The swastika fashionable. He sought to make Nick Fuentes and Milo Yanopoulos and talking about the J6 protesters as if they were heroes. He sought to make that fashionable.

Sought to make all these things that are grotesque. And really destabilizing to us, right, threaten our safety, he sought to make those things fashionable. Right. Right. And that to me is a gigantic betrayal of the cultural contract that I think black people should have with each other, which is number one. We will try to and work to keep each other safe in a place that is unsafe. So if there are people who don't believe that their safety should be in fashion one day and they're not a fashion the next day. If there are people who don't believe that Nazism should be in vogue that you should have an iced out swastika.

There are people who don't believe that you should get with someone who says that Hitler is cool, or Stalin is cool, all of that stuff. whatever, then those people probably won't look at this with very much compassion, right? Because who knows what will be in fashion five years from now? What will be in fashion two years from now? What will be in fashion 10 years from now? It's up to him to make that case. The case that he would have to make is that there is some type of consistency in him and his view of his people.

His view of his people. There is something that is forever. And you guys might not think that that's important, but it is. There has to be, to me, something inside of you that is consistent, that is ever changing, that will never change

about the way you relate to your community. You might think that there's a better way. you might think that there's a different way. But the rule is that you never do anything to put that lady and her people in that town, in that place, that brother working that job, that sister over here, that you don't put those people in danger, that's got to be forever. That's got to be eternal. You can't come upon that one day and the next day, go with the other.

other people. I agree. So that is the hill that he has to climb. That is what that is that is the hill that Kanye West, the entertainer has to climb. Kanye West, the fashion mogul and Kanye West, the musician.

That's a hill he has to climb. Kanye West, the man actually doesn't owe that to anyone. The only person that he owes anything to as far as his care is his family, himself and the people around him that he has to show up for. but if he wants back in that thing, it's going to be a long road. And it should be.

And anybody that doesn't make it that, which will be most? I don't know that it'll be most. We'll see. I'm not sure that it'll be most. But anyone who doesn't make it that is actually doing a disservice to him. I agree.

So that's going to be a long road. But look, I wish him the best. I wish him well. Like I legitimately do. I know you do. It was never, I never not like, I don't want to be mad at Kanye West. You were disappointed. Yeah, this, I, no, I was disappointed at first.

Then after that, I was angry. He iced out the swastika who was in the KKK robe. Like, I was, yeah, you gotta be crazy, nigga. Like, I believe everything. Like, you, like, you have got to be, like, that, by the way, just so let you know, I believe that, I think we all believe that Kanye West was unwell. Yeah, we would say it, which is why it was almost hard to talk about. because we truly believe that something was wrong.

We didn't excuse it, but it was like, it's hard. You don't want to speculate if they're not saying it, but it was obvious that he was not okay. Somebody reached out, last thing I said about this, somebody reached out to me and they were like, you know, it's obvious Kanye's unwell. And I'll be like, yeah, he's like, think about it, Van. If you became unwell, like right now,

you were really having a break. How would we know that, something was going on. You come out and you'd be like maga, I love Trump, I'm this, I'm that, blah, blah, blah. You would say all of that stuff, right? And you would say the thing and you would do the thing that would most demonstrate that you are not yourself. And that's how we would know that you are not yourself. And they were like, that's what Kanye is going through right now. I remember I looked at them. I said, I don't care. Okay. That's not. That's not. That's not. not what I thought you were going to say.

Well, at that point, I looked at him and I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I don't care. I was like, he made a song called Howl Hitler and he's got white boys singing, how Hitler all of the, what are I supposed to do? Going to the clubs, playing in the club most recently. Yes, yes. I understand, like, there are consequences, even if it is from a mental health issue. There are consequences from it, which, you know, I said at the jump. You got to be, people are well within their right to never, to not be okay. I'll tell you one thing, no. If he clearheaded that music about to be fire, I'm just letting y'all know, because y'all not going,

because if he clearheaded, if he clearheaded, that music about to be fire, because I'll tell you who not going to hold any, when they're not going to these rap naders. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're not gone. They didn't, like, like, just to all the rap niggas out there that might be listening, I've lost complete faith in all of you.

Like Satan right now, like the devil. Listen, let me tell you. Let me tell you how little faith I have in a rap nigger right now. The devil right now. The devil could have a Louis coupon. Shit, nigga. We go in the Satan house, nigga. Fuck that shit.

That nigga saying, hey. Just a blanket, all rappers. Just, hey, not all rappers. See, you doing it. But I'm just saying. I'm not saying all rappers. I want you to clarify. Just listen to what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is when a rapper does something, that's like completely fucked up, it no longer moves me at all. It doesn't. It doesn't move me in any way, shape, or form. Because right now, I'm telling you, man, I'm telling you, right now the devil, Satan himself. And we're we going to Satan house, nigga? Say, ain't got that weed, niggas, ain't got them hos, nigga. Hey, if you read the Bible, he did music.

So I see myself in him. So let me see. Y'all act like, I see myself in him because he was the minister of, music and he really really what the real deal was if you think about it not just in the way that you've been taught by your parents if you think about it in the other way he was just trying to get his beats off and god was like that's too loud and Satan was like you know what I'm gonna take one one third of the homies and we're gonna go do our own thing and he's been getting his ass kicked ever since so I fuck with him I fuck with him and the rest of y'all out there my new single

hell Satan is dropping we got the horn we got the Lucifer Rose we got all of this shit going right now Lucifer Rose is crazy We got the horns We're dropping bro And y'all get out your parents shit Cause Satan is here

What is the devil's rap name? Satan himself Satan himself Damn it's probably like Lucifer Bielzaab I think you gotta work with Bielzebub Bielzebub is probably

Bielzebub is probably the one he would go with Big Bub Big Bub big Bial Beelza The Bub. Bielza the Bub, Big Bub.

They'd be going to be right there with them, man. I don't believe in y'all anymore. I don't believe. Every morning I wake up, Trump the big home me. Fuck y'all niggas, man.

Let's take a break. No, no, man, fuck y'all niggas, man. Young boy, you from Baton Rouge, bro. You owe the community better. Oh, man. Did you see that in New York

Copeland? You piss me off. You piss me off, young boy. You piss me off. You piss me off. You piss me off, young boy. You piss me off. All of y'all, y'all are deeply, deeply disappointed me.

Like, I'll fuck with the ones that I can fuck with. Like, normally, we got guests coming. I'm lost faith in these rap niggers, though. I have. On any issue where there's supposed to be some type of consistency, I've lost faith. No expectations of you rap Nags. Okay.

Let's go. Athletes, y'all on the same. Yeah, got to go. Y'all on the same track. I feel like it's the same shit we gotta have a summit or something you don't feel what I'm saying right now Of course I feel what you're saying

This is just me We gotta have we gotta get together behind closed doors man Of course I feel what you're saying Yeah we gotta have a conversation The only one that can save us is Mark Lamont Hill Let's take a break They respect him All right peace with you know

Do they respect him on Joe Biden? Yeah Joe they respect more For adults with Crohn's disease Or ulcerative colitis symptoms Every choice matters Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of a disease. infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by

Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right. I'm sure you guys know that we have a very, very media literate A group of listeners that a 37-year-old man named Alex Pretty was killed over the weekend. Is it pretty or pretty?

I think it's pretty. Alex Prattie was killed over the weekend in Minneapolis. This is the second Minneapolis resident that has been killed by federal officers this month. We say federal officers because this was Border Patrol that killed this man, murdered this man, if you ask me. The story behind this, most of you guys already know by now. There was an action taking place. The residents of Minneapolis have been very clear that they don't want ice or border patrol or any of the DHS thugs that have been patrolling their community in this gigantic search.

They don't want them there. So Alex seemed to be, if you watch the video, someone that was out blowing whistles, recording the scene, acting in ways that are both lawful, and I say responsible in a community that doesn't want an ice presence around. He is approached by police officers, excuse me, he's approached by Border Patrol agents.

He's pepper sprayed, a woman that he is with is pepper sprayed. He goes to help that woman up. He's trying to help her when, the Border Patrol agents accost him. They surround him on the ground. It looks as if during this he is disarmed because he was armed, legally armed. You can carry concealed in Minneapolis. And you can carry that gun on your person.

And shortly after he is being accosted by Border Patrol and it looks as if he's disarmed, he shot what looks to be 10 or 11 times. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As Van said, you guys have seen it. It's been everywhere. People are talking about it. People are posting on their social media. There's been a lot of analysis from the different viewpoints of the video. Thank goodness that was captured in this moment. You've heard responses from the administration, from Christy Nome, from, is it Bovino or Bovino? Bovino, I think. Bovino. You've heard responses from them. I, I, this is what I'll say.

I feel like my takeaway is this and watching all of it because we watch it. You can't get away from it. It's like, how are we going to come and talk about this? As I sat and I watched it, I thought people have to understand the precedent that's being set here. People have to understand that there is a standard. What, the lawlessness that is being allowed by ICE that is being co-signed by the administrative It's you can kill an American citizen and you can justify that killing with lies. That's it.

We talk about authoritarianism. We talk about it in one way that Trump's power goes unchecked. It seems to go unchecked by any sort of other branch, judicial or legislative. But then there's also what we're seeing happening in the streets of Minneapolis and across the country. We're focused on Minneapolis because of these killings that we've seen. but it's happening all over the country where there is this interruption of political rights and civil liberties. That is a standard that is being set. They're doing it to suppress protesters, to cause fear in you, to control you, to create chaos.

That's a standard that's being set. You have a standard of who they're hiring to do this. You have men making comments saying, have you not learned? Referring to Renee Good, grabbing protesters' phones. You have them threatening protesters. You have them cursing them out after they shoot them in the face. You have them clapping after they shoot them 10, 11 times. You have them joking about that this is like a game.

It's like call of duty. That is the standard. You have these people who are linked to white supremacy groups, white nationalists, proud boys, KKK. You have all of that. That is also another standard that's being set. Another one is that you have people within their first and second amendment rights in the streets exercising not just their rights but protesting what they

believe in but then on the other side of it you have a clear violation of their fourth and fifth amendment rights you have ice using they don't have warrants as they're entering homes they're using deceptive deceptive tactics like impersonating police you have warrantless arrests where they're doing racial profiling you have ice decide or they put out a memo where they're saying that they can have an administrative warrant rather than a judicial warrant to do some of the things that they're doing. And then on the Fifth Amendment side, their due process is being violated. They're not being advised in regards to getting counsel and in order to remain silent. Like all these things are being violated and this is the precedent

that they are setting. And so if you think as you're watching this, you're far away from it or it doesn't impact you, it is only a matter before it comes to your doorstep, before it comes to somebody that you know. This is the America that we're living in and that they're creating. Well, well said. Incredibly well said. I've heard people say that this is the second time

that ISIS shot someone. You talked a little bit about this. This is the second time that ICE has shot someone in Minneapolis. There have been between 16 and 19 confirmed shooting incidents in Trump's second term brought up by ICE agents that are ICE agents are responsible for.

July 31st, 2021, 2025 in Black Forest, Colorado, September 12th, 2025 in Chicago, October 17th, 2025 in Washington, October 21st, 2025 in Los Angeles, October 29th, 2025 in Phoenix, October 30th, 2025 in Ontario, November 13th, 2025 in Washington, December 21st, 2025, St. Paul. these are all shooting incidents. Some of these shooting incidents are different than others. I'll tell you that in some of these incidents, ICE has, ICE Border Patrol, DHS, they have claimed that things were one way. And upon investigation, we've seen that there are another way. Here's the difference in these situations.

In these situations with Renee Good and with Alex Prattie, they are so well documented. that the ICE narrative doesn't even get a chance to exist in the investigative ether that other police procedures and blunders do. There is a tactic that law enforcement uses in order to muddy the waters around their misconduct. And that tactic is to round up other law enforcement, have them vouch for each other, concoct a story and then that story that law enforcement

concox has to be litigated against what the citizen or the people say think about the wire all you fans of the wire think about the show you think about the show you see kid get punched in the face blinded almost

Daniels your hero cop comes in and goes this is the way you write it this is the way you write it. That show was very, very, very unafraid of talking about the culture of policing and how cops protect cops. It was just, it was so in your face that you looked at the cops as more as people and not as officers. But what's happened in Minnesota really is that because this community is really so skillful at documenting all of this stuff, you really have got to hand it to. the people of Minneapolis,

they are recording things layered. There are multiple angles on a lot of this stuff. They are blowing whistles to alert each other. That's something that's happening to descend upon an area so that all of this stuff is documented so that you can see it. That is powerful. It's powerful because that means the blatant lies. Yeah.

intent lies that come out of DHS are destroyed, destroyed before you even get a chance to lean into them. So actually, Donnie is correct to me. This is actually the third ice

shooting, Donnie or J. I'm not sure when I give credit what credit is do. The third ice shooting in Minneapolis. The second killing, a guy was shot in the leg a couple of weeks ago. Okay, so we are going to talk now, and this is very important to what Rachel was saying, about how the government, DHS, Chrissy Knoom, all of these people, responded to this shooting,

how they responded to the death of Alex Prady. This is very key. Donnie played Chrissy Kno. The individual approached U.S. Border Patrol officers with a 9mm semi-automatic handgun. The officers attempted to disarm this individual, but the armed suspect reacted violently. Fearing for his life and for the lives of his fellow officers around him, an agent-fire defensive shots. Medics were on the scene immediately and attempted to deliver medical aid to the subject, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. The suspect also had two magazines with ammunition

in them that held dozens of rounds. He also had no ID. This looks like a situation where an individual arrived at this scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement. Okay. So she said this looks like a scene where someone came to inflict maximum damage and kill law enforcement. You know, I struggle. I want to be a good communicator. I do.

You guys, that's such a profound and amazing lie. I want you guys to think that's such a profound and amazing lie that all of you who have refused to believe

people that have been in the crosshairs of law enforcement in the past, should be asking yourself what it is that you actually believe. That's a total fucking lie. There is not a piece of that, a shred of that. That is true. These people think that you are either so stupid or so weak or so captured that you will believe anything that they say. It is on video, the entire interaction.

there is nothing close in the realm of fucking reality that we witness that makes that statement true. The video comes out. We see the video. We see Alex holding up a phone. We see the cops approach him, pepper spray him, accost him when he's trying to help someone. Then we hear shots ring out as he is executed on the streets of Minneapolis. Even after we see it, officials are then asked about their characterization of that event. One was asked, Veno was asked, by Dana Bash on her show, and this is how he responded.

I want to go back to one of the videos, and I know you can see it there, and I want to ask you about what you're seeing, because multiple angles of this incident show him holding up a cell phone and recording it, not a gun. Did he at any point pull out his weapon? Dana, good morning and thanks for having me. The weapon, and we do know that the suspect did bring a weapon, a loaded 9mm high-capacity handgun to a riot. We do know that as far as what happened in that intervening moment with the video that you just that you just showed that's going to come to light through the investigation that's being investigated and those facts and those questions will be answered soon enough mind you prior to that he said he was brandishing a weapon well they

said he's trying to he's trying to be a little bit more general and then he's talked again is he's getting even more he's still lying exactly there was no riot there was no riot happening. There was no riot happening. There was no brandishing happening. Hopefully we'll be able to play the clip where she asks him directly about the brandishing and he still refuses to answer the clip.

They've been asked everywhere. But the reason why I want to... You guys, two things about everything that's going on right now. Number one, like all of this stuff. All of this stuff. These guys that are in ice. They are loyalists to the president. Yes.

And there's a reason why they're loyalists to him. The president has showed up for them. They have 10 years with Donald Trump, where Donald Trump has shown that he is dedicated to them. In Trump's first term, when the alt-right rose and when Charlottesville happened, Trump had, in many different instances and occurrences, an opportunity. to distance himself from these types of people. He never did. What did he say?

He said, they will find people on both sides. He also said when he was asked to disavile the proud boys, he wouldn't do it. He has always shown that he is with them. He then pardoned the January Sixers. He has shown these people that he is their guy. Now, what he has done is take the relationship that he's made with them over the past of the last 10 years and weaponize it. Do you think it's an accident that you don't have to have very much training to do this?

No. No, it's not an accident because Trump is taking the culture that he has created and turning that culture into power on the streets of America. That's what you're dealing with. In addition to what you just said, he has also not just supported them and shown he's down with them. He's also shown them that there is no consequence for their actions. You do this.

I'll look at you as a hero as a patriot, which we know people are hiding behind patriotism to exercise their racism. And he's showing, don't worry, I've got you. And he's got people leading it where he's doing the exact same thing. We have to talk about Stephen Miller, who we know this is Stephen Miller's,

like Stephen, this is his work. This is what he wants. He gets on X and says, a would-be assassin tried to murder federal law enforcement and the official Democrat account sides with the terrorists. Again, lies. Nothing shown shows that Alex Preti was a would-be assassin. In fact, the contrary.

Never had a criminal record, never been in trouble with the law, and in fact, dedicated his life to helping people as a nurse in the IC unit at the VA hospital. That is who he is trying to characterize as a would-be assassin. He goes on to talk about that he was there for a massacre. And I actually, as I posted this, so to your point,

what does it say about the people who are supporting this? I had people in my comments saying to me, well, thank God they were able to detain him. I'm like, they murdered him because he was there, who knows what he would have done with all the ammunition? What ammunition?

And also to know the gun, the picture they showed, was it sitting in what appears to be like a car seat? Why is there not a picture of the gun at the scene? Why is the gun not on him? The gun is taken away because we saw it on video, just captured somewhere else completely separated from this would-be assassin, from this domestic terrorist. It's insanity. You know, so as we sit here and we're trying to figure out, like, how you cover this and what it is you say. What you're trying to do, or like what I'm trying to do,

is get to the point where cold water will be thrown on people and they will wake up. They will wake up to kind of see what it is. Because look, I want you to understand something. Like all you 2A guys out there, by the way, you 2A community motherfuckers are the biggest hypocrites in the fucking world. The 2A community, straight up, where are you at? you're weak all y'all's weak bitches I know some good ones

but the majority of y'all straight bitches your bitches and it's interesting to me that I listened to a large portion of that community the gun culture loving community I have a lot of guns

I do I listen to that community tell me about the importance of having weapons so that if the state became tyrannical, that you could use those weapons in defense of your home. I listen to that. I listen to the NRA. I listen to a bunch of people who YouTube and do a whole bunch of stuff. I listen to them talk about, what are you going to do?

What are you going to do? Like, I need my AR-15. You never know what's going to happen. the government that supposedly is on the side of that said that having a gun is punishable by death they said that having a gun is punishable by death he brought a gun he had a gun i thought y'all wanted that i thought you said that everything would be safer if everybody was armed at all times was that just like armed like in different types of situations where you're having fun Did you just mean that you wanted people armed when they go to the grocery store?

You want people armed when they go to church? So you can't be armed in a situation where you might actually have to fight the tyrannical government. You can't just be armed, period. You can't be armed in any way. You don't really want that. They said, hey, he had a gun, so we had to kill him, and y'all didn't say anything. All it is, to me, like, it's enraging because you know what I don't like more than anything.

else. This is the one thing I hate more than anything. I don't like people talking to me like I'm fucking stupid. Of course. That's what I don't like. I don't like people talking to me like I'm an idiot. I would rather them just say shut up, fuck you, this is what we're doing. And to the people

in the two-way community out there, I would rather you guys just say we like Donald Trump Jr. Well, this is, NRA did make a comment against Trump. NRA is against this. No, no, no, no, no, no. They did. The NRA made... They made two different statements,

and the first statement that they did, to me, was very careful, in my opinion, not to piss off the people that are bankrolling them. Tell me what you saw from the NRA that made you think that the NRA is good with this.

Maybe I'm behind it. Maybe I'm behind it. The first thing that they said was... So they said, okay. Responsible public voices should be awaiting a full investigation, not making generalizations and demonizing law-abiding citizens.

Okay. That's from the NRA. That's the second thing. that they said. Okay. Right. So the first thing that they said right now, and God forbid, I'll try to be fair to the NRA. What I'm saying is when this came out, somebody find me and put it in in the chat, the first thing that the NRA had to say, when this came out, the NRA, in my opinion, in my opinion, just like they didn't do in the case of Philando Castile, they should have been right away by seeing that video demanding accountability from the government that the guns are supposed

to protect you from in terms of why this man was murdered and why him having a gun was a part of that. Now, to your point, maybe they did get to a point to where people are like, what the fuck is going on? But the outcry from the two-way community that I've seen has not been committed. with this. I saw Mahj Toure holding people accountable and he probably always will. He likes to be in this. But other than that, a lot of these voices that I've seen for sure have been fucked up and silent on the whole thing.

For sure. Maga 2A. Maga is being completely silent, but to be MAGA is to be a hypocrite. At one point, this is what you believe in, right? Limited government, all these things. But then if it's the other way, if they tell you to believe it in this way, then it's okay. To be MAGA is to be a hypocrite. That is the only way you can exist within that thinking. That's why we call it cult-like thinking. I will say the other thing is that it is okay.

They do believe it's okay for you to hold a gun as long as you are aligned with their beliefs and what they do. Because we saw, you're seeing a lot of this too. It's fine for Charlottesville. It's fine for Kyle Rittenhouse. I mean, he became rich off of it with a go-fund me. It gets fine as long as. as you are aligned with them. It's okay.

But it doesn't matter who you are, what you look like, what your rights are. It doesn't matter if you're an American citizen. As long as you're against them, you're against them, period. And as I said at the beginning, that justifies them to do whatever the fuck that they want to to you. This is NRA's first statement. For months, radical progressive politicians,

what the fuck that got to... Like Tim Walts, have incited violence against law enforcement officers who are simply trying to do their jobs. Unsurprisingly, these calls... to dangerously interject oneself into legitimate law enforcement activities have ended in violence, tragically resulting in injuries and fatalities. As there is with any officer involved shooting, there will be a robust and comprehensive investigation that takes place to determine if the

use of force was justified. As we await these facts and gain a clearer understanding, we urge the political voices to lower the temperature to ensure their constituents and law enforcement officers stay safe. That's a complete launder job on behalf of the administration. by an organization that purports to be, why am I doing this? We know they ain't shit. This is a waste of time. I do want to say this because I know a lot of people are like,

what can we do, what's going on, what's happening? I just want to note that in Minnesota, they did file a temporary restraining order. It was granted actually by a federal judge against the Department of Homeland Security saying that they are barring the department from altering or destroying evidence connected to Preddy's killing because we saw them push out local law enforcement when it came to

Renee Good. They're trying to create their own narrative and their own story and they're not allowing local law enforcement to do an investigation to properly determine what's happening. They're taking it all in themselves. Additionally, the Attorney General from Minnesota is also going to argue in court Monday, you'll be getting this Tuesday, to end the ongoing immigration surge in Minnesota. They're asking for a judge to grant a temporary restraining order to put a pause on the operas. operation that's happening in Minnesota. Minnesota is trying to do something legally with and we have no idea how a federal judge will deal with that. Additionally, people are saying can, like, legally can a federal officer be charged and convicted for violating a state criminal law? They can, they can prosecute

them, but even if they do, there's a, there's a law that says that it can be removed to federal court and then we know what happens there. It can be appealed to the Eighth Circuit, which is extremely conservative, and then from there, it goes to the Supreme Court, which we already know what goes down there. But there are options, legal options available. Before we move on, we're going to be talking about this before we move on, I want to say this, there is a tension right now within the Democrats about whether or not the abolish ICE movement or sentiment is appropriate. Okay, so ice cannot be reformed. Ice is too far gone. Now, if you guys want to have a robust and nuanced conversation about immigration enforcement and all that stuff like that, you know, we have the conversation.

I'll be honest with you, I don't really fucking care. Like, I think that almost every issue in regards to immigration is a boogeyman. None of it's real to me. What it, uh, Makana is, it's a woozy, it's a wazis, it's whatever. Almost every issue as it relates to this is a boogeyman. You want to have a level-headed, clear-eyed conversation about where the country should have borders and how sustainable it is to have unchecked illegal immigration and all of that? Sure. Let's have a conversation.

Let's have a conversation economically. Let's have the conversation with all that. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Like, there's nobody that's not going to have the conversation and talk about it as an issue. But that's not how immigration has been talked about. Immigration has not been talked about as an issue. It's been talked about as an evil

And those are two different things If you talk about something as an issue Then what you have to do is dive into the actual issue And then talk about what it is that the issue means On both sides Like what how do you best deal with this But it hasn't been talked about as an issue It's been talked about as an evil

I was on CNN and someone said that this unchecked immigration Is a threat to our sovereignty What the fuck are you discussing? What are you talking about? Like what is the deal? Like what is your thing? Any statistic, any measure of the impact of any amount of this type of immigration on our society shows that there's actually a negligible impact.

This is really a nothing. This is an issue completely about the polarization of politics and who you can make people believe are responsible for your economic pain. Like, we don't have to do anything for you because it's actually these people that are, that are, that are, um, that are causing the problem. So for me, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a non thing. Saying that, ice must go. And if you are a politician and you are asked, if I should be abolished and you. say anything other than yes, you are a weakling and a coward, and I will not vote for you.

I will not vote for you. Not only, I'm not, I'm not playing with these fucking issues. You guys can say whatever the fuck you want. You can get mad at me, whatever you want. You can talk, whatever. I'm not voting for someone in any way who endorses starving children in the Middle East and executed people on the streets of America. It doesn't matter, guys.

it doesn't matter how much money you sent to the pack. It doesn't matter how much you want me to. It doesn't matter how many TikToks you make. It doesn't matter how many TikToks you make. I'm not doing it. And I'm going to spend every single waking moment trying to destroy these people. If you don't pull your fucking pants up and fight with us, I'm going to find somebody else to do it. And I'm going to use every little ounce of tiny little power I have to do that.

there's no conversation. It's too much. It's over. They can't be reformed. They must be abolished. They must. They got to go. It's them or us. What's out of you on?

Yeah. It's really that simple. Well, the Senate Democrats are about to have a vote on whether or not they are going to fund. It's bipartisan legislation, which includes $64 billion for the Department of Homeland Security, 10 billion for ICE. Chuck Schumer, one of your favorite senators, said the Senate Democrats will not provide the votes to proceed

to the appropriations bill if the DHS funding bill is included. It passed through the House with the help of seven Democrats. Seven Democrats. I believe. It needs 60 votes in the Senate to pass. If it does not, we're looking at a government shutdown.

Yeah, well, shut it down. They can't have any more money. Okay, look. Jasmine Crockett debated James Tilarico We thought we'd have a lot on it It was kind of unremarkable though Because it just shows which was what we said with Keith They are aligned on most of the issues I did not expect for it to get nasty

Or them to be throwing insults They're aligned on most things Did you watch the whole thing? I watched the whole thing Did you come away with liking one person more than the other? I... It felt... Him and and in and on.

Well, it just... felt like what I already knew. I thought, I thought, if I'm going to be honest, that James's intro, opening and closing statements were better. And I thought one thing that Jasmine does that people are critical is turn it about herself. Like she makes a comment where it's like directed to me and it sounds so loud because James is so like, I went to this community and I did this and so when you hear Jasmine say well he actually did a warrant you know uh filed a warrant against me i haven't framed on my wall we're past that we got we got to we got to keep we got to keep it about what's happening here it's so funny we're we're chating you know why because when i

watch the james stuff there's i was like this is like it was unremarkable but what i was started to what's starting to bother me about james a little bit is your ass at james you'll be like what you think we should do about this and james would be like all right well i read in Psalms 41. James, I did that a couple of times, but he did do your thing. Answer the fucking question, James.

He did do your thing about the single, the mom. I started laughing. I grew up by the border. Just answer the question. Both of them were wishy-wash you

on the ice abolishing thing too. They both said that ice needed to go. They both said that ice needed to go. I give them credit for that. Yeah. I give them credit for that. But when I say, I'm not saying that ice,

I'm saying say abolish ice. Yeah, but both, I took from both of them that ice had to go. And Jasmine actually said she voted against sending money. So that they were strong on Israel, maybe not so much.

Pack money, both of them kind of were like, you know, they both got called out on both from one from the moderator to Jasmine and then Jasmine called out James directly about who he receives money from. Actually, I wanted more, but they're the same. It's fine. It's fine.

I'm going to actually turn my focus away from that race and I'll tell you why, because I think that that, I think that the conversation surrounding that race are getting increasingly unusful because the reality is that that right there is the only the only useful commentary coming from that race is the commentary of how we are going to tolerate black ladies being discussed now I'm not you don't you

don't have to hold back in any way shape or form but when you are criticizing jazz and crack go hard go go as hard as you have to say all the things. But like if you do get to a point to where it feels like that you're critiquing her personally based upon things, then we're going to have to unpack that a little bit, right? Yes. I get that. I understand that.

Criticize her on our issues, policies, not identity, which is what some of it seems to be rooted in. I completely agree. But yeah, I'm like, when I watched the debate, I was incredibly unmoved by, I thought it was going to be like a, I thought I was going to be able to make a clear-cut decision on the candidates after that and that just did not happen. Okay. We're running out of time.

Anything else you want to get into? Anything else? I know. You sure? Yeah. We don't understand. We don't have any time to get anything else. We got to get out of here. Chris Broussard, it's a bad tweet. We've got to get out of here. We've got to get to Aldous Hodge and Ben Wackens. There's new show crosses coming out. We've got to talk about that.

Chris Bussart tweeted this. If you can't boldly state the craziness of Democrats being unable to define what a woman is and saying men can get pregnant and the madness of Republicans defending the murder of Alex Prady, then you're following a political party ideology and not the Lord and Jesus Christ. My brother, with all respect in the world, man.

With all the respect in the world to Chris Broussard and watching for so long, had a couple of conversations with him. What the fuck are you talking about? That's comical. that's comically missing the mark. What the fuck are you on about, Chris? Like, what are you talking about?

Like, blood in the street and we're both sides in it. Where are we going to do? Blood in the streets. Like, literally, blood in the streets, dead people, in the streets, and we're both sides in it. It's also conflating two issues.

Like, that's separate. Like, why are we putting that? Why? Like, why? Well, listen, I had to read it like five times. I was like, am I understanding this right? What are we doing here? It seems like an erratic tweet.

You're conflating it. No, no. This is not the, no. Hey, I'm going to be real with you, man. I might put sports media pundits in the same conversation with the rappers. I said, no, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. You know why?

Because I shouldn't do that because you don't have to agree with me in order for me to respect your intellect. That is not what I'm saying. You do not have to agree with me. That's not the deal. But that right there in that situation, my man. My man, where we at? And you're equating too.

Like, this is what I mean? Like, what are we doing? Why are you equating these two things? No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. In, like, I say all this when I said, you guys, I know you guys don't like it when I say it, like, you know,

in love and all of that stuff. Because the criticism has to come. We have to tighten each other up and we've got to continue to make the bonds. But God damn, y'all, we just need. A little bit of, we need some straight backs on this. We need some straight backs on this. We do, we do. All right, Alice Hodge, Ben Watkins, other side is break.

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This episode is brought to you by weather tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to

step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Season two of cross February 11th on Prime Video. So it's Prime Video. We don't say Amazon Prime anymore. Prime Video. Prime video.

We say all of it, but they change their, you know, it changes for them over. You got like the department. They're still trying to drive in what it's in. I didn't know this. Prime Video. You didn't know this? I just thought Amazon Prime Video. One time I was doing a talk and moderating, they were like, hey, listen, before you go out there.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a prime video. Whoa. We have the showrunner and the star of this great American show. Ben Watkins, the showrunner, Aldous Hodge, the star, Alex Cross, joining us today on Higher Learning. Guys, give it up for these people. Hey.

All right folks. Glad to be here. Thank you for having us. Yeah, very happy to be here. Season two, the show was such a success. People are now waiting for it. Is the anticipation, is the execution, is the show itself, is the ride itself different this time,

being that it's not a surprise hit it anymore. Now people are expecting like a good experience when they sit down and watch out. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a different type of pressure if you let it get to you because now, you know, you're a known commodity. You can't sneak up on anybody.

And I felt like there was some skepticism coming because there had been cross, you know, adaptations before and, you know, there was, you know, varying, you know, opinions on that kind of stuff. And then there's this book series. So there's a huge investment for all these people who were cross fans. So there was a little bit of skepticism. I think that was useful for us in terms of fuel in season one, but also useful for us in terms of once people fell in love with it, there was almost even more like luster to that. Now people are like, okay, now we did. that what's you coming back with and um and so we we try to work in tunnel vision like it doesn't matter what other people think we have to just approach our own vision our own creativity our own sense of what this should be but then when you get done you start going oh man you know oh man

how these people going to see it yeah yeah i mean i saw the first uh first cut of second season i'm very happy with it but i think that uh yeah the pressure is that there there's a freedom to the risk on the first run just because people don't have expectations yet or like you said they we're coming up against um we're coming up against uh some biases that I think are easy to challenge because we're presenting something we knew we know what we're presenting and we know how we're presenting it second season second run up we have to re-present ourselves now represent or represent you know who and what we are and you know like I said we kind of just just keep the head down, don't let that shake us,

because at the end of the day, the only pressure that's there is the pressure we put on ourselves. If we just keep steadfast on what we're doing, know what we love, we're gonna be fine. And I think we're good. And one of the things you know, you'll never regret if you do the show you wanted to do. That's the only way you can walk away with no regrets.

If you do anything trying to please somebody else or trying to game plan towards what you think the audience wants or anything like that, and if it doesn't go well, you're gonna be kicking yourself. I was actually going to ask you all that. So it was so popular, obviously. You got a second season before the first season even started. So you didn't take any type of, like from fan reaction or anything from the audience and say,

oh, we're going to use that maybe in season two. Nothing. Well, we didn't have a chance. Because the show hadn't even dropped. Yeah. But then when you were making season two, it had dropped or no? Season two was in the can before season one dropped. Oh, wow.

Oh, I didn't even realize that. It was weird. We were going to autopilot. for both seasons. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay, so in the season two, I know you can't give away spoilers,

but then how did you raise the stakes maybe emotionally? Because it's more than that visually. Like, what is it that you did in season two that's different from the first one? Go ahead, Benjamin. I mean, you know, for one thing, you know, even before we even started season one,

my intention was, look, these are based on a series of books. And the way, especially in the streaming platform, you can go a long time without seeing, you know, the follow-up seasons. So we decided to approach it like each season is its own book. The thing that has to stay consistent and build the investment

is the characters. It's the people. You know what I mean? And I'm a huge, like, mystery and thriller buff and I follow them. I read the book. What I realized when I asked myself what really brings me back,

it was the characters. So each mystery has to be compelling, but the characters and their journey is what really has to matter. So season two, we build on the character journeys. And of course, there's a core relationship in our show and that is Alex Cross and his best friend and partner

Samson. Yeah, Samson. So we get to see more flavors of that, right? We do, we do. Digging to some histories, some backstories, some characters people already love, so we give them a little bit more flavor. I think the strength of what makes the show work is people get sort of

an in-depth view or experience with the world that they know from the books, the world that they love, because they get to touch you know, characters at home when they're spending time with them. They get to sit with them

in their silent moments. They get to understand what the culture is around. So we have so many avenues and strings to pull on for what to present to the audience that we know they'll love. We have almost infinite options.

What does it mean that Alex Cross is black? Well. I mean, that's a huge thing for me. Yeah. You start off with, because there's so many things that come built in with that. You don't have to.

who you can naturally and organically address so many issues and dynamics that exist in this day and age just by having the lead character of a single lead show be a black man. That's rare. To have him be a cop and also live in the community and be able to deal with those contradictions. That's rare.

To have his best friend and really, in a lot of ways, it's the love story, is two black men who love each other as friends and brothers, that's rare. And I don't have to preach any of it. When we go to tell the story, we just start to delve into what it is to have that type of existence to be like, oh, I am wearing a badge,

but I'm also working for law enforcement that has a very complicated, you know, history with my community. We don't have to go preach that. We can just see that built into the thing organically. And so that's what made it really appealing to me to do even though when I first signed on, people were like, you know, should you be doing a cop show?

Should there even be cop shows? You know what I mean? And now we're here and we're having a great time. I said, well, if anybody is going to be telling cop shows, then maybe it should be us. Because then we really can touch on the things and the contradictions. Because I know y'all know when we go, like I were going to barbershop. If somebody talking about to abolish the police,

there's black folks in the barbershop, I'm going to no, no, no, no. You know what I mean? So we got to have nuanced. conversations instead of just, you know, this polarized stuff. So let me, let me piggyback on that then. I was watching Die Hard like last weekend. Which one?

One with Reginald Bell Johnson is in there. And part of his backstory is that he accidentally shot a kid. Remember that? And he thought the kid had a ray gun, but the kid, uh, the kid had a real gun, but the kid had a ray gun. So when I watched that when I was a kid, ah, cop, uh, poor cop. made a mistake, man. Now he's got to live with his chain to a desk.

You know what I mean? He can't be out in the field anymore because of that. When I look at that now, I feel like they were grooming me to put the humanity of the police officer ahead of the person in the community that the police officer shot. Even if they didn't know that they were doing it, there's a way that they told that story to be like, ah, the cop made a mistake. Poor dead kid that his family has to live with that forever. Now this cop has to redeem himself by working with John McLean.

there is attention. I am one of those abolish the police, like get rid of them, like defund. I am one of those people. I agree that we have to have conversations about policing that are nutritious. How do y'all have them on the show

because there are people who don't want any more cop shows? Oh man, we have them just because we're pulling from our honest and organic personal experience. And this is something we're lived in. oftentimes people ask us who aren't us you know so what made you decide to talk about this this what do you mean what made us decide this is what happens right but we have to be in front of the narrative and the conversations intercommunally so that we can help other people within our

community understand with the show we get to help other people who are not within our community find a means of looking at us and empathizing and understanding where we come from because there are so many people that don't get our reality so many people that are shocked by George Floyd while we're sitting here like what are you shocked by? This has been happening where have you been?

Racism is real like of course it's real this is our reality you have to adapt to the idea that your version of living in this country is very different than some other people your version is different because of the existence other people have to live in. And we have to address that head on instead of tap dancing around it, trying to pacify people to make them feel okay about or desensitize themselves about what really ails those in ways that don't ail themselves. Sometimes people don't come to it because they're like, you know, it's not going to happen to me.

I don't have to care about it. I don't have to deal with this. But with the show like this, where you give them perspectives from all sides, now they're able to sit with it and actually think from a different place to say, oh, I didn't know. Now, let me take this. Oh, you know what? This is fun. This was cool. But it made me think a little bit.

I'm going to read this situation a little differently now that I see it on the news. If I see it hit me, you know, again, in a different way, if somebody comes up and tells me, yo, this happened is crazy. I'm not going to hit him with. Oh, I'm surprised. I'm going to hit him with. What do we need to do about it? And we had a thing, season one, we open with that conversation. There's a character that, hey, how could you be a cop?

Right. Given what law enforcement does with the black community. And so that platform is a conversation. And you have a cop having to answer that even though deep down he has some of the same contradictions inside of him, we want to play that. I remember, you know, making this conversation, do you want to do, you know, contribute to copaganda? Yeah.

We want to give a nuanced portrayal of a black man dealing with what it is to be a member of the community and also a member of law enforcement. How is that? And we actually built a storyline in where he had, you know, assaulted somebody, unjustified. And one of the real big breakthroughs for us as a storyteller that put up even made us say we got to approach this, you know, even deeper was like there is no version where it's not propaganda. because if I show you a cop do something wrong and then do the right thing after it, who are you relating to? And I'm telling you,

I could tell that story from the POV of the person he assaulted. You're still going to be, oh, now I'm giving the cop points because he realized he was wrong, he tried to make up for it. That is a version of the cop of Canada. So you really got to make sure

that you're telling the whole story. Otherwise, because you're always going to have some element where folks are saying, I love how it's cross. He's your hero. Yeah. Right.

Pagy back enough, what you were saying, Alex Cross as a black man, what is it meant to you? Because, I mean, we see him as a detective. We see the grief. We see him talk about mental health. We see fatherhood. We see all of that.

So it's a very layered character. What is it meant for you to play him? But then also, what has been in the fan response in regards to seeing a black man who's a detective be so layered and complex? I'll start with the fan response. What I've seen, And which I'm really greatly surprised by and humbled by is just there feels like a sense of breath, a fresh breath of relief, you know, people being able to, whew, you know, we get to see this,

this, this, this, and this. And what I'm tracking are all the things that attracted me to the role in the first place, which was, you know, this brother out here who is hyper-intelligent, you know, smooth, very clever, very sense, like, sort of self-aware. And then also we have the father element where he's holding himself accountable, trying to do better, trying to evolve. We see a multifaceted human being. And when it comes to him being black, it serves to be as an asset, right? For me, it shows a different part of who we are and the truth that I understand, not in a sense where it's, we're presenting this new version of what black is.

No, this is what we have been and have always been. And I was relieved to not have to try to explain these things. He just walks into a room unapologetically and he's putting his intellect first. He could beat you down. He could go with the rest. He could, with the brawn and this and that. No, he's going to do what he knows is his greatest strength is understand people at their level and then pull them out.

That to me is, that to me, you know, it embodies the spirit of many of our great leaders that don't get sort of the shine of the representation or the respect and acknowledgement that they truly deserve. You know, how much strength and willpower does it take me to defeat my oppression with a degree of respect and a monochem of, you know, value for myself, all that I can hold for myself aside from succumbing to the lowest hanging fruit, you know?

So he represents the stress of being in this environment, dealing with things that he is diabolically opposed to, but managing his position to try to change it from within. I've spoken to many cops. I've interviewed a lot of cops who say between the office and the community, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and they themselves feel conflicted because the image of what a lot of us know to be when it comes to not trusting cops are stuck on them.

And they're the ones who are pushing through. And to be able to represent some piece of that truth is nice, because that's what I as a citizen would like to see more of. Because I grew up obviously with a fervent sort of, not even a fear, just a disconnection from the idea of policing because I know it wasn't working in my favor. You know, they run up, hey man, how you doing? Nobody is like, what are you the target?

Rather than they were serving you. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard some scary stories of truth from some police officers where they themselves know the way that they're trained, obviously not every single one of them, but they have certain issues with, you know, the environment, the culture, the policy,

because they feel like they're going against their truth. It's nice to represent somebody who's going to challenge what that is and fight for his truth. What is it like to have to even think about that? Because I'll tell you what, it's like when I, I bet when they're doing blue bloods, which, by the way, I go like, I'm always, I'm going to be real with you. This is something that when people tell me they're like cross,

I kind of get it, right? I'm like, yeah, like I get the show. You see the show, I get why you would like that show. But there's a lot of shows out there. This is not a diss that I'm always surprised that people watch them. It's like, when I'm at the crib, and mom goes, I get back home, need to get back home.

I'm like, why we need to get back home? Like, we're out here, we're having some gumbo. She goes, Blue Bloods is gonna come on. I'm like, you watch that shit. And it's not a diss to the show. I'm just surprised that she would be into that show. Let your mama have Blue Blood. She let your mom be great.

My dad likes it too, but you probably gonna I don't say that's the norm is the police. So, so like, your daddy, the judge. Yes, what he calls him the fad.

That's what I was doing. But what I'm saying is, I bet that on shows like that, I'm sure that they're great, amazing people that work on them, but they don't have to consider some of these things. For sure. So for,

for black creatives, there is, and we, you meet with people in the town and you talk to them, and at first, I was who I love, you meet them,

And they go, oh, man, I'm glad you love that. I'm glad you love that. 30 minutes into the conversation, you can get them to say, isn't it hard making the thing that you have to make, but then also having to know that there is going to be narrative and conversation and you have a responsibility and all of that stuff? You want to tell a story, but you have to consider the protection of your people. We talked about that earlier on in the podcast.

Yeah. How do you navigate those two things? Man. You guys are two black men telling a black story at the same time. There are complexities in the audience that you cannot ignore. And those are things that other creators, white creators, white showrunners, they don't have to care as much about them. Man, I'm so glad you asked that.

I know. It took me a long time to work through how I felt about that as a creator. In any type of genre, in any type of story, and also to be in Hollywood because you understand the lack of representation in Hollywood so as soon as anybody gets any traction there's a sense of responsibility.

I'm sure y'all feel it. And then you start, I actually, early on, I just started to resent that. I started to resent what comes with it. Like, oh, now you've got to be the flag bearer. Oh, now you've got to be the educator and the explainer. And you know, the breakthrough for me was when I stopped resenting it

and I started to embrace it. It is the reality, if I want, want to advance any cause, if I want to expand anyone's perspective. I used to go in and have to talk to executives and they'd say, well, I don't understand that line, even just a line of dialogue. Or if I'm trying to cast somebody a certain way, they don't understand it. And I literally would refuse to explain it. I might force the issue and get what I want, but I wouldn't explain it.

So they would walk away, not understanding. So they haven't had their perspective expanded. And I started saying, wait a minute. There might not be another person in this chair. in a long time. Yeah. I actually am in a position where I can tell them

here's why. I can educate them and even if only 10% of them actually get the light bulb moment, that will have a ripple effect somewhere down the line. So you have that just in the interactions as you're building out these things

and when you get into these rooms and pitch these stories and tell folks why you're doing a storyline here or there. And then when you go to do the content, you have to ask yourself, well, because there's not that many black shows. I mean, can you name another?

black show with a black lead and and he's the hero single there's not really anything going on right now and it hasn't been for years this was the first black single lead detective show since hawk mary brooks got one season you know what i mean so for me it's like okay i could say well i'm just an artist i do what i do and we'll see how it goes and they can respond how they want to there's another party that says no you got to embrace the fact that it means more yeah i've been learning from him because I've been quite fatigued with that. Recently, over the years. Be honest about it.

And I'll tell you why we should be honest about it because the conversations that we have behind the scenes when we're talking to one another, you talk to a lot of people who just have an idea in their head and they want to do the idea. Yeah. And they get the idea and the idea comes out. It gets to social media and they go, whoa.

I did not know y'all would respond like this. And a lot of people feel like something, sometimes the responsibility of the black artists can be creatively limiting. Yeah. It's, so there's a couple of things because from the outside looking in, the audience relies on you for a great many number of expectations to be met without even realizing they're asking this of you, right? When we get in our position, we're often isolated where we now have to represent the totality of all.

And I've had to explain in different standings on different jobs. I say, guys, it's only one of me here representing this percentage of our audience, but you got like, you know, 75 of y'all. The difference is y'all can do this, y'all can mess up, y'all can go to these great lengths and all that of whatever. It's depravity or however you want to lay out the drama with your character narrative. You can do a whole lot. It's not going to damage your community because they don't represent the totality of your community.

But when you have one of us or two or three of us in a space, And we are, you know, the, we are in terms of percentage, the magnitude of your audience for who we represent when they watch this show. There are only a few things that you can do if you want to reach those people. Because our audiences are not only smarter, but quicker with information, but also they're, I think, overloaded, saturated and fatigued with lack of quality and they expect better quality, which means they expect more honesty and truth. Some executives don't really get that or much less. They don't really, they don't always care about taking care of the audiences they're representing through the work they do. So when you find executives who do care enough to let you just be honest and, you know, because it means being honest with yourself is also being honest with the person you're sitting against. And sometimes they don't like that honesty.

Sometimes they don't want to acknowledge the presence of certain things or certain factors. So that's why they'll find any and every excuse to get around it or how we can't show this because we can't but do you question that when it comes to y'all, you know, I remember I did a show one time, me and I ain't going to say it. I knew this is going to be one of those. I ain't going to say it. No, I ain't going to say it. No, I ain't going to say it. Okay. There was this, because I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. If I make the connection, I'm just, I'm going to drop a name. You make the connection. I was there. I was there. I had a wife, only black couple in this particular setting. We both have great jobs, but they kept trying to create this unnecessary animosity between us

that didn't speak to the truth of the couple, but also didn't speak to the truth of the culture. And I kept telling me, guys, we don't do this. This ain't what we do. You know. and then there was a certain situation where my wife, oh, now we want to rough it up. Let's take her father out of life.

Now she has like an adopted father and he happened to be white. I said, okay. Because at first it's like his biological father, I'm like, she's too dark for that. Come on, y'all. We're not going to buy it. So now he's adopted. Cool.

Boom. I said, what was the impetus for the change? And why do we have so much, you know, animosity in our relationship? Well, you know, I want the only black couple to be like too perfect. I said, do y'all ask that about y'all? Do you question that one time about y'all? And what is too perfect mean? So now too perfect, you've got to take away her black father,

but you're going to give her a white father. Here's the thing. There's nothing wrong with that until you create the problem, until you create there something wrong with that. You know, if she, by happenstance, happen to have a white adoptive father, great. If she happens to have a white adopted father because you want to create some,

weird environment where she grew up in the hood and she was saved by a white savior, we can't do that. That's when you actually create division. That's when you actually manufacture a problem. You know, so as long as her success is not tied to his whiteness, we're fine. And this is not a racial thing. This is an executive thing of understanding who our audience is and how they will turn on you if you put them in this position because you look at what you're telling them.

You can't do better without us. that ain't the truth because I'm sitting here telling you right now I'm done better without you and I don't give it then so what are we doing like yeah and they already messed up when they say the only is it's the only gets me is like they already coming up like we gotta have one Mexican we got to have one Asian we got to have one now now when we get in the writer's room and they don't have representation in the writers room now we got to be like oh we got to have them be symbolic and representative and As soon as somebody says only, I said, well, there's your problem. It shouldn't be only.

Why don't you have more than one depiction of it? You got it. Open it up. We were having this conversation. We were talking about sinners. It's like unless we fit into a certain stereotype, it's as if they can't understand it or they can't reward it. So I completely understand what you're saying. Season two.

It's so interesting that you say it was already in the can when you did season one because this surrounds you protecting a billionaire, which feels very relevant in light of what we talk about right now. So that's really interesting. But Samantha from the show said something interesting. She said that this season confronts what is a monster, and the audience has to answer that. She would love to see the audience answer that question for themselves. What does she mean by that?

So we'll deal with themes of vigilanteism. And the way I look at it is the audience is going to have the question. If somebody does the wrong thing for the right reason, is that justifiable? And if somebody does the right thing by the wrong means, how do you look at yourself in terms of standing behind that person if it benefits you? Yeah.

You know, we deal with a lot of that. We see it every day, obviously, in the news, people flip flopping, and like, this clearly doesn't make sense, but oh, you're getting chipped off of that. You get in the back, I got you. So selling your soul. And you're like, at what point, where's the threshold for humanity where it,

it truly doesn't matter anymore the life of a person or the quality of life for a group of others so long as you are substantiating yourself like when did it become this bad you know and then when someone does engage a little bit of vigilanteism I mean look sometimes extreme is extreme but at other times we understand because people just get tired right you know yep we just get tired you down that road you know we so vigilanteism I actually started thinking about where we were so when we went to do this I was already feeling something in the culture not just black community not just you know people in thrillers in mystery but like all of american culture and I knew that we were in a place where vigilanteism would be almost wish fulfillment for some people certainly and

always has been yeah and sometimes it gets worse like when you think about the Charles Bronson, when they went on that run. When you start to lean into that, it's when everybody's now feeling like they're getting a raw deal and nobody feels like there's any way to get recompensed. Then you can start dropping these things where it's like we,

you can live vicariously through this person who's going to take justice in their own hands. But then for us, that means you've got to take it to another level and you've got to force the audience at some point to realize they might be rooting for the wrong person. Because there might be a line where it goes too far and we do that on both sides of the of in we you know of season two where we got two characters and we make you feel a certain way about them and then we're hoping that we make you

question your own feelings and maybe look into what it why you feel that way about them um and you know so it's like great because we can kind of lure you in and be like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that person they deserve to die but then what happens? happens when you cross the line and somebody innocent or somebody you like becomes the victim. Right. And then it's still for the same reasons. So yeah, what if Batman beat up your cousin?

Exactly. It's like, oh, it was all good until he, and you know what here? Yeah, it was a little point of ears in the cave and stuff. And what if he wasn't even targeting your cousin? Right. Like, what if your cousin just happened to be riding in the Uber with the Joker?

Yeah. And that would be, you kind of, he just collateral damage. Yeah, I mean. You have to kind of say. Well, maybe he's an Uber driver. Exactly. But would you pick up the Joker.

No, I would say to him, I was like, I don't know if you know, but this guy tried to poison the water supply of Gotham, like a couple of hours. Turn that right now. It's been slow today. He's been slow. Does it deal with like who, I was just thinking of the Joker, does it deal with how the monster was created? Is this, okay.

Yeah. So that's part of the understanding. No, no, no. I'm not, though. It's important because going back to the cop, in the situation. You know, we're in this, and right now, imagine being law enforcement right now

and you got integrity. Yeah. How hard would it be to go to work right now? Maybe you should. If you have integrity. Yeah. Well, Vat doesn't believe that there's a thing as a good cop.

We just talked about this. Oh, because, because you're like being at school. I used to be in like, you could be good when you sign up, but there's no way you can stay good. There's a, there's a theory behind that. You know, and I'm not here to judge that. I don't know what.

But if you consider yourself to have integrity, whatever that might be, going to work right now is really difficult. If you're going to any sort of group situation, do you think you want to say what you do when everybody sees what's happening out in the world right now? And so that's partly how we advanced the story about the kind of things that he has to deal with as Alex Cross. And then, you know, he's protecting a billionaire. Yeah, I'm gonna clarify something real quick. So this is real quick.

I believe that you can be a good person and be a cop. I don't believe that you could be a good cop. Like I was a good person working at TMZ. But if you're there, you're there. The institution. Like, yeah, like what we did and there are a lot of good people that work there. What we did was a thing. And so if you're there,

like there's a part of you that you're sacrificing cops have a different edict than celebrity news muck rakers but I'm I don't want to litigate policing on this show when you guys are trying to sell a show I don't want to do that but I'm saying like it's a deeper conversation and one that maybe you have as a grown-up and not sometimes as an activist as well but I mean we challenged that the show too okay first season yeah yeah no first I said it I used to look at it At parts I thought that maybe y'all was talking a little bit too much to the audience

but y'all tied it up. Like a message. But y'all tied it up so well the show is just fantastic which is what I want to ask you guys about. What the fuck is it like? First of all, I do want to get a joke in real quick. I get a joking. When you said that you're protecting a billionaire, I was wondering

if that came straight from Bezos. If he was like, hmm, season two, Let's Let's do something here Let's try Let's put a guy in there He's a man of means

Okay Let's make sure that people know We're all not all the same Let's put a guy in it No But how do you Fucking get somebody To watch a show now

There are so many shows There are so much stuff to watch The competition Is very very high It used to be That by the time You got your show on air if we're talking about like 95 or 96.

You had a decent shot that people were going to give it a chance because there just wasn't that much out. And if NBC said you need to try this on Thursday, you would at least be like, I, man, let's see what LL Cool J and the house is doing. Right? Now, you competing with TikTok, with other shows, with content,

you're competing with old Alexcroft stuff because that stuff is gone the same stream. or available to you. Maybe somebody watches 10 minutes of your show and they go, ah man, you know what? I want to see what Morgan Freeman was talking about. So, like, how do you get someone to watch

what it is that you're doing now and there's so much stuff out there? Man, I mean, that's a great. I mean, first of all, it's a combination of things. We learned a lot coming in. And, you know, I've been in a game long enough to see where it used to be really, really traditional, just, you know, when the show's coming out.

No, no, no. And the machine kicks in. Tell them where you started, bro. Come on, bro. Your acting skills, bro. Oh, man. Come on, so other people, bro. Come on, what they can't say.

Oh, I love that for you. Which one? Santa Barbara. Young and restless. Oh, nice. Oh, that was the one? Was that the one with Victor? Was that the one with Victor?

Yeah. Victor, my, Mammaud. Eric Braden. Oh, my, Momoa. I got some Eric Braden's story. You see y'all. Victor Newman. Yeah.

You wouldn't even know. See, y'all here. What kind of character did you play? Oh, I, well, I came in is what they call it summer spoiler which is I didn't notice so basically they bring somebody in to connect and start a romance thing be a wild card in a romance situation during the summer when the audience is is off school and then they they kept me and what it is was he he was an early stage DM that they slid in no exactly but that's what

that was and they were like you know they Jerry Cash Cashman no no that's not you doctor dr. Wesley Carter Wesley Carter. Dr. Wesley Carter. That's a soap opera name is. That's so popular name. Wesleyan. In any wild-on fans out there, there's Drusilla and Olivia.

They're the sisters. Yeah. Tanya Lee Williams and it played Olivia and Victoria Rowe played Drusilla. And they were legendary at the time. And of course, there was like the prominent black family on daytime. So when Drusilla had left the show and she came back. and she brought a boyfriend with her. And that causes a love triangle,

which becomes a love rectangle. He was a homework. Because now you got Neil, played by Christoph St. John. Oh, yeah. Right? So he's trying to get back with Drusilla, but I'm Jucilla's boyfriend. But then I start to fall for Olivia.

No morals whatsoever. Oh my gosh, I love soap operas. That's how you sell the show. I'm saying he's breaking up homes, breaking up sisterhood. You know, that's how you felt. That's how you was. Yeah. I'm drawing out.

Back in the day. I'm in. Now, look, y'all gonna have like two and a half percent rerun bump, and it's going to be grateful. Yeah, exactly. Thank you very much for asking that question. I don't know how you segueed into that. Because he said, how do you get people to watch the show?

You said it's different. Now you've been in the game for a minute. They need to know. Yeah, way back. You know what I'm saying? You was out here on your model tip, bro. Mm-hmm. I was out there.

But yeah. The whole, you know, treatment like that. I'm just saying. But we now know that you've got to sell the show from multiple angles. Yeah. And one of the main things you got to do, First, you got to try to do something good. Of course.

That's hard. Then you got to get the word out there. And one of the things that, and I have to give a lot of credit to the Amazon marketing, especially Amazon PR, because they're like, look, you've got to go to the community. You share the show with the community, talk about the community, get the community engagement. And some of these events that they help us do, there with small groups. But that stuff becomes exponential when if the word of mouth gets out there. Yeah.

They feel like you're invested in the community. They feel like you value them and you're giving them a good product. And I kind of was, this was new to me because you need these folks to get active on social media. You need these folks to get active in terms of word of mouth. And then you need to do the traditional stuff. So, and we watched it build. And we're watching it build right now. It's already starting to happen with the run up to season two where you start seeing people start, you know,

the we share that we do these little screenings. Folks see it. They love it. They start to share the word. They start to take old clips from season one. Now they're doing mashups. They putting it with new music. It's making us relevant.

The trail on YouTube, I think, within like two, three days, already bumped up to like 10, 12 million. Oh, wow. That's amazing. Yeah, I was like, all right, cool. You know what I'm saying? YouTube, cut the check. Yeah.

What we got? And it's impressive too just because you are already fighting against having other Alex Crosses in movies or whatever, so people might have come in with a critical eye and you surpassed all of that. All of that. A lot of people came in. I'm sure they came in like, well, let me see what they're going to do with this little thing they got going here.

Let me see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after they saw, uh-huh. But I mean, walking through an airport with him one time, I think it was like two days after the season one dropped. And of course, we don't, two days after walking through an airport, at least five people, he's no longer out of his house. They're just screaming out. It's pretty cool. We was getting wings one time, and we was trying to have all the thing.

It was me, Nick, Malcolm Spell. Oh, me, Malcolm. Yeah. Fucking insane person. Malcolm, I love you. I hope you're listening. Malcolm is about every couple of weeks you get 10 texts in a row from Malcolm, just stream of consciousness off the top of his head.

Brilliant, brilliant. Nick May, of course. We all have wings. We're trying to have, you know, we're having a good time. And then one person gets it in there. one person realizes that it's him. And then after that, it was the rest of us wrangling pictures.

Right, right, right, right. It was like, next person? I want to come up and take a picture while. I was, like, y'all want to take a picture where I'll take. But then what started happening was, they're like, okay, cool, can we take the picture? Hey, you're. And then I was like, no, no, I was like, no,

you didn't come over here. You came over here, but Alex Cross, I'll take the picture. You get a picture with you. Yeah, well, I'll take the picture. But that's, but that's amazing, though. That's a testament to the hospital. show is reaching people. No, it is fantastic. This is unlike anything I've ever experienced my career, you know, and it's new and nuance for me, you know, because I'm, you know, I just be sitting in the

corner and I see, you know, somebody over and me mugging from across the room. I'm thinking, hey, bro, you want to squab, you know what I'm saying, but you can crack a smile. Yeah, but you know, uh, then you run up, hey man, let it show this, da, da, da, what you start to see is that people are connecting with different elements of the show like, you know, you show up for, or, okay, suspense, crime drama, but then you realize there's a lot more to it. People are there for just some men are just there for the fatherhood.

You're like, who, thank you. Showing us loving our kids. Getting back to what we grew up with, this is what we know, who. Relief, you know, or just the brotherhood between Samson and Cross being able to show us supporting one another as opposed to all the infighting. They're there for that, you know,

so they connect to other things. And we realize this is more about, it's less about particular subject. matter and genre and more about culture and community. Once that's embedded in the work that you do, you understand you can reach people in different ways that you can't even quantify, think about on the upfront because you don't know how they're going to personalize that. Right. You know, but we dive into the community. They feed back into us. Beautiful. Last question for me. I'm going to ask you to, I'm going to push you here because I know you're already thinking of it.

You ready. If you had to look at what's happening right now in the world and it's happened to maybe a storyline for season three or how you would how you would want that Alex to live in that world what would it be look at that's a good question I got to be honest I think and and folks will tell you folks who have seen season two almost feel like we were tapping into pressure yeah we were pressure yeah a lot of folks are like you know unfortunately man a lot of the themes in terms of what's going on in season two are very timely yeah and I wish that I I could say it was different. I wish that people could say, oh, that's dated.

But people are gonna watch season two and realize that we got our finger on the pulse, even though we shot it over a year ago. Yeah. I don't know if you remember when I came down to the writer's room before we started. I was like, yo, hey man, have you heard this crazy story about da-da-da-da-da-da.

And then y'all were like, oh, we already there. And it was, I mean, it was weird that, We were all in the same path, but it shows you how prevalent some of these things were. So, yeah, it's, you know, hopefully we can just kind of like focus a blurry linge on certain truths. But, yeah, it is very timely. I think hopefully, you know, if there's a season three around, I think you're going to hit that target again. Yeah. There's some clairvoyance, too.

We're already working on season three right now. Well, we ain't going to tell you what's happening. I'm not going to ask. Yeah. You see, she's smooth, but she's like, so hard to get you. you know, just hypothetically. That's part of it too is, you know, you're thinking about, you know, because you don't know when the shows are going to drop.

You don't know when the seasons are going to drop. And you do want them to have some cultural relevance. So you are thinking about what's going on right now that will still be in our conversation right now. Or what's bubbling right now that hasn't actually really hit the surface for a lot of people and see if you can tap into that when you're working on storylines. Yeah. You guys, I was looking stuff up.

I'm about let these guys go. But some of the Amazon people are around. I want to say something to the Amazon people. I see that you guys have a partnership with Howard University for the first fellowship between a major entertainment studio and an HBCU. That's great. That's great for Howard. And it's great for fam.

And it's great for all the Will Packer out there, Will Packer pushing the fam agenda. Y'all pushing the Howard agenda. What about Southern University? What about? What about, yeah, you know. What about Baton Rouge? Okay, what about Baton Rouge?

What about us? That's all I'm going to keep asking people. I need Amazon, go down to Southern University, go down and talk to him. I'm going to put you in touch with T.J. Jackson, Gino, Marshall Falkers, their head coach. Think about us. It's all about Howard and fam right now. It's getting to the end, the end of the road for me with this. Losing your patience.

I'm losing my patience. What about the job? Jaguars. Your face is out about that thin. Not that thin. All right. You guys, we're excited. The audience is excited.

Ben Watkins, Alex Hodge, cross February 11th, Prime Video. Do not miss it. One thing they said to make sure to say. Okay. It drops February 11

and then it's weekly after that. Oh. Yeah. So it's going to be a party. We dropped the first three episodes and then after that you all going to have to wait. There you go.

That's great. I like that. All right. Guys, make sure to watch it. We appreciate you guys. We appreciate you guys. I did. Thank you.

Thank you. You know I was in two diehards, by the way, right? Yeah, I know you were in the diehard. We forgot to talk about that. I'm just saying, you said the first one, which is good, but it ain't the best one. Because die hard with a vengeance. I'm just saying that's the best one.

That's the best. There's a conversation. Before I let you go, are y'all still rolling? Are we? Before I let you go, there's a conversation right now about what is the better die hard. There are some people that say that diehard with a vengeance is better than the original diehard.

What do, just as a movie, What's a better movie? Die Hard with a vengeance. Or the original diehard. People are saying that with a vengeance is creeping up on diehard, man. I would say the original diehardt is a better Christmas movie. Wow. Die Hard with a vengeance is a better summer.

Nice. Nice. Here's the question. Answer. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. We are out.

There are things. we are going to cover on Thursday that we did not get today because we got a lot of time with our brothers Ben and Aldis. We're going to cover the shocking and disgusting footage of Cory Hulk and comedian Cory Hope can punching a woman outside of a commissure. You know, I know you put this in the chat. I've seen it around.

We are going to cover that. We're also going to cover, hopefully once I've gotten a chance to talk to Maxwell Frost. Maxwell Frost, a friend of the show, was assaulted by a racist at Sundance. And I haven't got a chance to talk to him yet. I am going to get a chance to talk to him. Maybe we'll get him on to be able to talk to us about that. Other things along that ilk.

We're going to continue to watch this story coming out of Minnesota to sort of gauge where the politics of it are going. The morality of it seems to be pretty static. The politics of it are a different story. We're going to make sure that we keep an eye on that. Take thing caps off, not stop learning. I am Van Lathin Jr. I am Rachel and Lindsay.

Bye, guys. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required.

Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny.

They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's lamated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch.

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