Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay - Young Voters, Blackface, and O.J.’s Past and Passing

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay bring in the show talking about the past, passing, and impact of O.J. Simpson and the complexity he holds within the black community (05:09). Then, they touch on the trepidations young voters have towards Biden (16:59) and Trump’s latest reach towards black voters (35:51). Later, they are joined by Conscious Lee and Franchesca Ramsey from the podcast ‘Black History, For Real’ (58:12). Hosts: Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay Guests: Conscious Lee and Franchesca Ramsey  Producer: Ashleigh Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? How learning is on. It's I, Van Lathan, Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. Rachel. Thanks. Yeah.

I bought new hats. You want to see him? You know what's funny? I was thinking about that actually today. I thought, you know, that's going to come on. At this point, that hat's getting a little tired. I would hope that he would, if this is the new look,

you're going to expand it. So let me see. Let me see what you got. Look at this. First of all, don't, don't, don't, don't call my shit tired. Because I don't need you. I said it's getting there. Yeah, like, don't call my shit tired.

This is, look at this one. Let me see, put it on. Let me see you put it on. Where are you getting your hats from? Don't worry about it. I'm not, I'm not sharing my hat vibe with you. I'm not, I'm not getting it where you. What size hat do you wear?

7 and 5, 8s. I'm right there. Chocolate brown. No, the brown looks good. Actually, I was wearing it backwards. The brown looks good, though. Yeah, look at it. The brown.

Look at the brown. Oh, actually, the other way was backwards. Anyway, look. It's good look. I know, the brown. Black brown is fantastic. I know. You like the brown?

I like the brown. Next gray. And then maybe like an olive green. Real quick. Real quick. I kind of like, don't need your help. Then don't show it to me. Don't show it.

Don't show it to me. I'm already ahead of you. Okay. Okay. My dad is a hat like that. Just like you and the judge got matching hats. Yeah. Yeah.

I like that. Oh, God. You know, if you're going to be on national news wearing these hats, you do need to change it up. I'm glad you did. They look good. I like the black hat, though. The black hat is the daily hat. I actually really like the green one.

What you got going on this weekend? Tell me now. Honestly, nothing. I've been traveling a lot. I'm chilling this weekend. Thought about Coachella. Not going to do it. Having a girl's little girls kind of sleepover, get together.

and then Kalika and I are getting together this weekend. We got a birthday to plan. So we got to do some last minute stuff. But I'm chilling because the next week is the birthday party. So I got family coming in town. I'm going crazy. Because it's right before your birthday. No.

I don't really think about my birthday this year. I don't care about it. As we know, you asked us, is my birthday next week? You know what? It is reality. No, I'm in the position in life now where no one gives a shit about my birthday. So I don't care. That's not true.

That's not true at all. Definitely true. So I don't care. I really don't care. Mm-hmm. That makes me sad, but that's also not true. What do you mean about people caring? because obviously people hit you up and they, you know, like, wish you up.

Well, your birthday hasn't happened yet. I know. So, but what I'm saying is, it's, first of all, I'm turning 44. So for a 44 year old man, for a 44 year old man, who gives a shit about? I don't like this. What? It's another, it's a blessing. It is a blessing.

And, and like, I'm not trying to be cliche when I say that. when I see all the stuff that's happening and, you know, like lately, I feel like there's been a lot of death. Personally, I just look at birthdays. It's a blessing. It's a time for people. It's not even like about you.

It's just a time for people to celebrate, to gather together. Celebrate life. To reflect, to reassess. I think about all of this as a birthday's coming up. And 44 is a good number. It is a good number. I'm looking forward to it.

It's a cowboy number. attitude. Change your attitude. I don't, I do what I want to do. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. I do what I want to do. I do what I want to do. And what I'm saying is I don't want my birthday to be that big of a deal this year. I'm tired. You know, I'm tired. A lot. A bunch of things happen. There's been some breaking news. We're going to get into it first. OJ. Simpson dead at 76. Later on in the show, we have Francesca Ramsey and Conscious Lee. They have a lot of

new podcast to talk about black history for real. We were able to get their reaction, semi in real time to OJ. Simpson's death. So, Rachel, your thoughts. You were the first person to break the news to me. And when you put it in the chat,

I literally go, huh, and I just sat there. And I thought about it. That was my initial reaction. And I would describe that as indifference. You know, everybody's talking about OJ and they're going to talk about his football career and they're obviously going to talk about the trial

and they're going to weigh, you know, that, all these accomplishments with what is OJ's legacy? And the reality of it is his legacy is the trial surrounding the murder of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. But, When I think about it, you know, because I saw somebody say, how do you balance the two?

And the reality is you don't. I mean, and it's not just the trial and him being acquitted and culturally what that represented within, with in the sports world, with black people. Everybody, you know, our age can remember where they were when they heard the verdict. I was at an all white, a majority white private school. I remember the division. I remember it being black versus white. I remember gathering around.

We were listening to it on the radio at school. But I think about the things that OJ did after, which to me, you know, he was found innocent. He was found, but civilly, he was held responsible. When I think about his behavior after, to me, it speaks to his character even more so. So obviously he's found innocent. He's been found innocent.

So you can have your, feelings, whatever, but a court of law, a jury of his peers, found him innocent. But when I see how he behaved, when I see how the things that the way he moved about is if he didn't have a care in the world, he didn't seem to care about the Goldman family, he didn't seem to care about the Brown family. He wrote a book. Yes, the proceeds of that book went to the Goldman family because of the civil suit that he lost. But you wrote a book called, If I did it. And then the cover art minimize the if to where all you saw was I did it. And there's an actual chapter that plays out hypothetically how you think these murders would have happened if you

did it. The disrespect to those families that lost someone and you continued to live. And in such a disrespectful way, I keep using that word because that's the word that keeps coming to mine in a gross way. without any regard for anyone but yourself. And then he continued to commit crimes. Okay? You did like the robbery. There was the robbery slash kidnapping. There's the taxes.

Like it just to me, it's hard for me. I know you're not, I'm not celebrating his death. So that best word that I can use is indifference because I just am like, huh, I think he's a bad human being.

I do. And I feel my, heart goes out to he has children and I'm sure he represented something different to them or to relatives but to me that's what I think of when I think of him. I think he's a bad person. Yeah. So, I mean, OJ. Simpson's life is going to be remembered by the fact that he killed two people, right? And so, and look, let's be honest. O.J. Simpson was found not guilty in a court of law. So that means that O.J. Simpson gets to live the rest of his life. He ended up going to jail for something unrelated, but O.J. Simpson gets to live the rest of his life, unencumbered, and as a man who is not

guilty of murder. Now, there was a civil suit, a wrongful death suit that was filed after that, where OJ was liable for those deaths, like he said. And so it's not illegal to say that, it's not slander, should I say, to say that OJ killed two people. You can't say that he murdered at them, but you can say that he killed two people. That's tricky TMZ. Sure. Sure. Sure. I think OJ. Simpson is

the death of OJ. Simpson, which, by the way, energetically for me, I can't be somebody who revels in someone's death. It's just not a part of who I am. I think OJ. Simpson's life, though, probably has a lot more to do with the flashpoint that the trial was. I remember having the

conscious, even at 15 or 16 or whatever I was. I remember having the conscious understanding that O.J. Simpson was guilty, but still wanting him to beat the case. I remember understanding that in an intellectual way that O.J. probably was guilty of the crime, but still wanting a cultural win. from the trial itself, wanting a cultural win, wanting, you know, coming off Rodney King

some years before, all of the racial animus in the 90s, wanting to rub O.J. Simpson's acquittal in white America's face. And wanting them to feel bad, wanting them to feel outraged, wanting to be able to buy the justice system like other people had bought it before,

wanting to believe that there was a level of money and power, an American celebrity that I could get to to where I too could insulate myself from consequences based on things that I had done or not done, and really needing that and really feeling that way and really reveling in it and celebrating it and picking at people because of it and seeing people really upset

and knowing the reason why they were really up. upset and the racial dynamic of the case or feeling like that was part of the reason why they were really upset and really being awesome about it, right? Really feeling great about it. I think as the years went on and I got a little bit more years on me, those feelings obviously changed and became more complicated as OJ continued to live his life and as I got further removed from a feeling of emotional, it's important. equality and revenge

emotions and more about a feeling of how I look at justice and how I look at people's lives and the value and the rarity of a life, I think it changed as I grew up, as I matured, as I changed. And also it changed my

relationship with how I was going to allow myself to be manipulated. Now, this is not a shot at Johnny or anybody else because, you know, Johnny was brilliant. But our blackness and the sense of injustice that we feel living and our distrust in the police and in the justice system was used.

to make a murderer go free, to let a murderer go free. Now, the LAPD had done themselves no favors. Mark Furman was and is racist. And you have to look at the history of the LAPD, particularly under Gates, as being something that opened this massive door for people to be skeptical about whether or not

they would take down a prominent black man or whether or not they would collude together to do all of this stuff. So it was like right there. It all came to a head right there. And me being a young cat, being someone that was sick of seeing this kind of stuff happened, I played into it.

And I just remember when I came to the decision and I really looked at it that I just did not want to be that person. I wanted to be a person that was always first up to back, when it comes to talking about these issues, but I never wanted to have my pain used to manipulate me into doing something that I felt like or feeling a way that I felt like

was at cross-purposes with my values. That, when I think about O.J. Simpson, I don't even think about his life. I'm sure that his family and his kids are grieving, and I'm sure that the Buffalo Bills organization and the Heisman Trust and the rest of these people will remember OJ Simpson as a football player. but what I remember is how one person's situation

can really illustrate where we are as a society. Interesting. I was 11, so I definitely did not comprehend, when he was acquitted. I definitely didn't comprehend it on that level. It was through watching documentaries, even the fictional version, was it the People versus OJ,

the ESPN documentary, other things like that, is where I really start to form my opinion and learn way more about it. And for me, it's interesting you talk about what Johnny Cochran did. It's the other side of what he did that gets to me.

When you talk about exploiting. OJ famously said, I'm not black, I'm OJ. And the way he was presented in the trial put his blackness out more than anything to play into our emotions. He was very black during the trial. And it was black people that were on that jury.

It was black people, you know, in the media, standing outside the courtroom that really rallied around him when he has historically been a person, who did not consider us in that same way. And so, you know, to watch how they, you know, put black art up and made, had pictures of him with black people through his house as the jury went to really tap into that emotion is what gets to me. The using of us and playing on our emotions because you know we will be down for you

more than anybody. We will rally. We will support. We will know you're guilty and still right for you. That exploitation. is what gets to me and it's something that I will too always remember you were blacked in not before and not after yeah yeah so i do i mean look it's it's part of our trauma response to yes coalesce around one of each other but i mean look oj simpson died it's it's a happening

it's not that profound so he passed away i didn't know i didn't really even know he was sick so No, I don't think anybody really did. Okay, we're going to break. On the other side of this break, Joe Biden. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the final with Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

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Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. Rachel, are you concerned that Donald Trump who went in November? Yeah. I said it before. You know, and I haven't changed it. And honestly, as time is going on in articles that I see or, you know, listening to other people talk, it makes it feel like that's really where people are headed.

And not just because people are going to vote for Trump. It's more of they don't want to vote or they want to punish the Democratic Party or the Democrat Party or they want to vote or they want to vote for somebody else. And so it's almost as if they want to use their voting power, right? They have it. They know that there's power in it. And so we're not going to vote for Trump. but we're going to do everything but that, including not voting for Biden.

And that's more of the rhetoric that I'm hearing that is starting to scare me. Yeah, so according to an article that I saw here on Yahoo, experts are saying that young voters nationally might decide the 2024 presidential race. 2016, young voters actually helped Trump by either staying home or voting for Jill Stein, third-party candidate right here.

And in 2020, they helped Biden, obviously, because four years of seeing Trump's face, they got people out there, and they decided to remove him. Now, though, many of young voters are disenchanted. Climate change, Israel's war in Gaza, immigration reform, all of these things are sitting on top of young voters. And according to polling, it seems as if they are not on fire for Joe Biden. It's interesting because

as we talk, obviously the Arizona Supreme Court has upheld a near ancient law that is in effect a total abortion ban in the state. So that means that unless the health of the mother is in dire straits, you can't get an abortion in Arizona. Now, that has been a losing issue

for the Republicans. Right? Reprovenants everywhere. We should say that the Attorney General in Arizona said that they won't be enforcing the law. I'm not sure how that works. And the Supreme Court in Arizona said that they had no choice but to rule in the way that they did. All right. I say that because that issue has been a thorn in the side of a report.

Republicans, but I actually think that it's being drowned out by the war in Gaza. I think that that issue would be a tipping point for the right or for the left, depending on how you look at it. But I think the war has eroded the coalition and the overlap between people who are saying, hey, it's an all-out war on reproductive rights. where does it go next, IVF, contraception, all those things. I think they're fighting with people who sees, see America as funding in genocide and do not want to ever vote for the people that are in charge of that. Abortion is also something that affects just women. So I think that's also why it's easier. And I'm not trying to say one issue is more important than the other.

I'm just saying it affects one group of people way more than it does. others. So I think that also plays into that as well. I agree with you. How do you mean? How do you mean? Well, abortion is it's a it's our right. It's the right of women. So, you know, as much as you can say your body, your choice, women should be able to have autonomy over their bodies. At the end of the day, you're still not a woman. So like I'm just saying for those who are women or yeah, those who are women, it still doesn't affect you in the same way. So I think that it is easier to maybe prioritize another right than it is, or another issue, I should say, than it is abortion.

But they voted, the only reason why I'm pushing back is because they voted on it everywhere. And like the abortion, the abortion issue, and maybe it's all women voting everywhere. And I'm not saying that it's not a woman's issue. It is. No. I think that, I think that, I think that it's been a hugely political, yeah. But you're comparing it to the war in Gaza. And I'm just saying that.

when it comes to other issues, I think it's more so just a woman's issue. So I think it is easier for other people. And again, I don't want to make it seem like I'm putting one, saying one issue is greater than the other. I can just see how this is such a big deal, but also it doesn't impact people in the same way. That's not everybody in the same way.

I think that's one thing to it. And I think it's easier to put something like that on, not something like that because I don't want to minimize the attention that it's gotten. There was something else she said that I was, going to speak to. Oh, with the young voters, I don't get, I don't understand, you know, reading that article, I read that article that you sent, I don't get it. I don't understand how you can care about these issues and say these issues are so important to you and you're upset because the current administration has not done anything or has, or has not acted on some of these things,

right? And even when they speak to it, because at least they're speaking to it, because at least they're speaking to it where Trump, you really don't know his plan on a lot of these issues that are concerning young voters. They feel like Biden has empty words because they haven't seen him do act on these things in the last four years. I don't understand. I get you wanting to hold an administration or a party responsible. That's what it should be. It should be about holding them accountable, not saying I'm going to be apathetics of voting or I'm going to. I know Trump is worse, but Biden's bad too, and I'm still choosing an evil, so I'm not going to vote. Or I'm going to vote for another party because I'm still exercising my power in voting.

And I do understand that. And I'm voting for this candidate because he embodies everything, even if it does mean everything I want, even though it does mean, Trump might become president. If everybody agrees that Trump becoming president is worse, I do not understand. I think both can be true. I think you can demand accountability. I think you can also understand that an administration can only do so much. But I don't think that you sacrifice all of that for a Trump presidency. And I just don't understand that school of thought.

If abortion rights are your issue, and that is what is important to you, how could you do anything that's going to lead to Trump in office? If that's your issue. if immigration is your issue, how can you do that? If the economy is your issue, how can you do that without assessing how, you know, it was, yes, maybe it was better for you under Trump's presidency, but are you paying attention to what's happening under Biden's administration? Are you paying attention to what the administration was before Trump? Are you paying attention to some of the things he does want to implement, like a universal tariff, which could still impact the economy and raise costs on domestic goods? Like, are you paying attention to these things? That's what I guess is the disconnect for me

that I don't understand with young voters. I get it. I'm upset and frustrated too, but not to the point where I'm willing to sacrifice at all. Yeah. I think you made great points. The only sticking point in any of it is how do you hold somebody accountable

while still voting for them? I think that's something that we have to, That's something that we have to, that's a question that we have to ask, right? So it's like, I'm too old to think that it's fashionable or I'm too old to think that cutting off my nose to spite my face makes me more attractive, right? That doesn't make, to me, I'm too old to think that that makes you prettier. I don't. I guess the question would be, though, as for people who have,

discontent, particularly with the Gaza issue. They're not going to do what you want them to do. They can't. They're not going to do it. Did you vote for them anyway? Should you vote for them because it's going to be worse?

Under Trump, who is you know, who was responsible for moving the embassy to Jerusalem, who was responsible and like little geopolitical microaggressions like this that, you know, know, we hadn't, people, countries have been unwilling to do forever because they didn't want

to stoke the flames over there. Trump had no problem doing it. Is it, are you to a situation, are you to a point now to where you're willing to say, hey, we'll put somebody worse in if the Democrats, if the Biden administration, if the moderate corporate Democrats, don't reflect our values. If you are not our party, then why should we vote for you? It's essentially what I'm hearing. If you don't, if we're not,

if we don't believe in this, if we don't support this, then why will we vote for it? Knowing that that's going to be the, and the thing about it is there are very few issues that are that emblematic of that. Like a lot of times issues are policy and they can be negotiated

like you can talk about how much money is supposed to go here what kind of budget cut is going to go here economic policy you can talk about entitlement programs uh privatizing social security um all of those things are not privatizing social security which i'm not for privatizing social security or uh all that stuff you can talk about those things you can even unfortunately you can negotiate uh voting rights it's in a bill. This is a bridge too far. This is not a bridge too far. You can negotiate justice and policing.

You can. Okay, disqualified immunity you have to be a part of this? Does it not? Like, what are the things? You can pick them apart. It's difficult to negotiate this much death for a lot of people.

It's difficult to to come to the table for it. You're either for it or you're not. And that binary is jarring for some people, right? But beyond that, not to drift into the deep waters of that because, you know, people look at that differently. I would also say this.

This also is reflective of the president's inability to make people believe that he to inspire people in any way. Like, even to deliver a hard, truth, to deliver an uncomfortable truth for people to believe. He just, that's the part of it. When people talk about Biden being old, I don't think that Biden is incompetent and not able to, to run the country.

I do think his age and who he is affects his ability to communicate to people that things are going to be okay, that we are figuring it out, that we don't like this, that we don't. like that, but we're in a situation like this. It's, it, the lack of charisma and the lack of, I don't know, buying that he can

elicit from someone, it does affect that, right? And so the only thing you're left with are stats, pictures, and numbers, and no one to contextualize them for you because the president's incapable of that. And with young people who live their lives

of based, like, using the currency of inspiration and how they see the world, right? Because every kid under 25 under 30 probably still thinks that they're going to save the world or that the world will be saved in their lifetime. They're idealists. And they need to be communicated to with a sense of inspiration and power. And it's hard for them. The rest of us, we do the calculus. Okay, well, you start getting to a point in your life where you go, how can my life, I want to achieve a lot of things. But But how can my life be the least shitty?

You know what I mean? You get to a certain point to where you think, you know what? This is the generation. We're going to figure out racism. We're going to figure out poverty. We're going to figure out all of those things. And then you get to a point in life where you go, let's just concentrate on harm reduction. Let's do the least amount of damage.

How's that? Because we're not going to say the world. So let's just get out of here without. fucking it up as much as our parents did. And that changes the way that you look at voting and your place in the world. And I think that a lot of the kids right now

that are looking at this stuff, these issues are too gaudy for them. And the abortion issue would have been one that you could have run on because it's so in your face. But I think America's relationship with Israel just completely

duded it. Yeah. I also, like when I, when I read stuff about young voters and how they think. They're impatient. And some of that I like, right? They're demanding exactly what they want for themselves. They're frustrated of what, you know, generations before them have done that have left them

in a shitty situation, whether it's political or just policy, whatever it may be. But at the same time, I'm reading people say, well, I was better under Trump. By then sucks. So I'm going to go back to Trump without realizing like you're demanding certain things. And there's a formula. Like it takes time. You know, you also have to change things congressionally. I mean, things have changed judicially and look where we are.

So it's just, I'm also like, okay, I hear you. I know what you want. I agree with most of what you're saying, except for your way of getting it done. And I don't even think that there's an end game of getting it done. It's just like, well, this person will do it, so let's try this person. Let's go back to this. It takes time. It takes time and accountability.

I should say in accountability. And maybe, and not maybe, we haven't done a good job historically of holding the people with power accountable. Yeah, I mean, it just depends, right? Like, if I make a Star Wars analogy, yeah, you don't like what the Rebel Alliance is doing. do you turn the universe over to the galaxy over to Darth Vader and Papatine? No, you don't. You know?

That I know. It's like, because these niggas about to take the Death Star and blow up some planets. All right. You know what they are. But I do understand the depth of the schism. Sure.

The depth of the problem that the Democrats are in. got to figure something out got to figure something out baby but the Democrats aren't the only problem the other parties got problems too I'm talking about politically the other the other party is set politically

besides Marjorie Taylor Green trying to get Mike and Jay right the fuck up out of here the other party has a very strict no niggas no abortions and no Mexicans

policy. Yes, still. And that those people are voting for them. But still, those people are willing to vote for them, blacks, Latinos. So look, there is, just to make sure that you guys, there's an article in Washington Monthly. And the article talks about Joe Biden versus Donald Trump. And it is a statute. You know how I love the statute based upon who got more done.

All right. Whose advances agenda more by issue? You guys should go watch this because they have it on YouTube, but you can also read it on Washington Monthly. So Trump, taxes, check. Courts, check. Social issues, check. Trump was able to get all that stuff done.

Immigration, tie. Veterans, tie. Working family, tie. Crime. cannabis tie. Biden. Legislation, regulation, national security,

diplomacy, trade, healthcare and public health, antitrust, education, infrastructure, manufacturing, energy and the environment, labor and employment, guns, and state local aid. All those go to Biden.

So he's been able to do more of what he said he was going to do and be more effective in it, on it, shall I say, the Donald Trump. The question is, do you agree and do, and can you feel it. And if you can't feel it, I would suggest that you try. I mean that in a completely

ironic way. I would suggest that you try. Try to figure out how and if your life has changed since 2020. And 2020 is obviously a low point. But think about if things are moving in the right direction and then you'll be able to make your decision. But as this moves on, I, I think we'll see the Democrats try to pull out a couple of hellberries here. Long way to go. Long way to go. Speaking of Trump, he went to Chick-fil-A. You see this?

He was in Chick-fil-A and he was Atlanta. What did you think? What'd you think? He was hanging out with the blacks in Chip-fil-A. Ashley, give us the audio. So I don't care what the media tells you, Mr. Trump. We support you. We support you, Mike.

Okay, 4 p.m. Come here, let me give you a. Rachel, your thoughts on this? Makes me sad. It just makes me sad the way. And like, you guys go check it out. You're listening to the audio now. But in the video, there's just a crowd of black people with their phones out,

teasing from ear to ear, just groveling over Donald Trump, just eager to get to touch the hem of his garment, just to and to tell him how much they love him, it just makes me sad at how the desperation in it. And then it makes me wonder, is this, like, are they into his celebrity and the fact that he's a former president, or are they really into him as a person? That I don't know.

Like, is it like, oh, my God, this is Donald Trump, you know? He's a businessman. He's in rap songs. He has reality shows. He's the former president. And we're just excited to be this close to a celebrity. Or are you really? Yes, there are people who say, you know, we don't care what the media says.

There's another audio where the woman's like, you know, he's like, I've done more for you. And he names his two talking points. And he goes on to say, just check Biden's record in the 90s. And they're like, yeah, Trump, you gave us the first step act. So, yes, there's some people shouting down. but I wonder how much of it is, hey, this is going to translate to how I really feel about you and I want to see you as my president. I'm a vote for you or just I'm obsessed with your celebrity. Does this, does this bother you because they are acting this way over a politician or is it because does this bother you because they're acting this way over Donald Trump?

It's because they're acting this way over Donald Trump. Interesting. I think if it's not a politician. I think if, if, I'm, I'm blubly, I'm blubly. Brian Kemp walked in to that chick fillet. They would not be fawning over him like that. I know because Brian Kemp is not near about as famous as Donald Trump. I hate when people act as well over politicians, period.

See, to me, it's because he's a celebrity. It's not because he's a politician. It's because he's a celebrity. It's my point. It was my point. Well, the president of the United States is always going to be a celebrity, right? If he wasn't president, they would have been falling over him. He's a celebrity outside of that.

But go ahead. He is. I do think, I mean, he's been a celebrity for a very, a long time. And he is, in fairness, a celebrity in a different way than like a standard president is, although maybe not Obama. I think Obama was famous in a very

zeit-guisty celebrity way. I don't like this feeling over politicians, like the Jesus thing. You guys, everyone always knows this. I do think that whenever I see somebody do this over a politician, it doesn't matter who the politician is, I

freak out. I just don't like it. It's just such, it's subverts to me the role of what the politician is supposed to be. Like the politician works for you. It's supposed to be there for you. You're not supposed to live to, like you said, touch to him. That's for kings. Kings, oh my God, that are ordained by God that their family's blood will rule.

You just want to be close to that sort of divinity and royalty. I just hate that we have that sort of perception of politicians in America. And obviously, since I am as vehemently anti-Trump as one could be, I hate that they feel that way about Donald Trump. It's interesting that I want to really deep dive the relationship between Donald Trump and some of the people and some black people

because there is just none of the black people that I know are as excited about Joe Biden as the black people that I know that are excited about Donald Trump are. I think it's

it's it's it's it's I don't know how to talk to them anymore. And I don't know if it's, it's up to them. It's, it's there, they're free to vote for whomever they want and feel however they want about it. But I kind of don't know what to say anymore. As I'm at a loss.

Like, they really fucking love Donald Trump. And they think that everything that's happening is unfair and that Donald Trump hasn't done anything. And that Donald Trump is aligned with the black community in some sort of way. And there is absolutely, I talked to. I told you a friend I'm out on life and there was nothing I could say just fact after fact

after irrefutable fact I'm like yo Google it look this up this is what he actually did this is what he actually said this is how he actually acted this is what he actually did don't care just a wash what was it that they were

like you're giving a fact and you're saying things that Trump has done that have been hurtful problematic and what is do they combat it or are they just like to like it's just like a one talking point that they have it's like one issue

it's one thing what it's it's either the most important excuse me the most damning and vexing thing about Donald Trump is Donald Trump isn't charismatic

he's contagious who like when someone is captured by who Donald Trump is, they start to talk, think, and act just like him. It's not a thing to believe in. It's a thing to become. It's an intellectual virus that affects people.

And they go so far, they stretch so far that they end up sounding just like him. You give them a fact. They pivot off of it. They throw in an alternative fact that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. They argue in sections, meaning you'll get into an argument with them or a back and forth with them. And they'll bifurcate what you're talking about, take a piece out, and then put another piece in to seemingly make it make sense to someone who doesn't have the understanding. And I'm like, no, if you take that, you'll ask them direct facts. Like I'm talking to somebody.

And I'm like, they're talking about how fucked up Hunter Biden is. And I go, do you know where Burisma is? Because I just want to know the depth of the understanding of the Hunter Biden thing. And they're like, no, what is that? And I'm like, do you understand that like you don't, I'm not defending Hunter Biden? I'm just like, I'm saying you understand that you don't know what you're talking about. I have to stop and let you know that we're talking about something

and you haven't done the work you don't know what you're talking about and it's innuendo it's like he's got to be dangerous to the government look the way the government's coming at him he let Kodak Black out of jail it's all of this stuff it's

and after a while they sound exactly like him and Trump makes all of these little Trumps And that's hard to do. Like, you can't really do that. Normally people begrudgingly agree with politicians. And they don't become them. He makes people like the fucking gremlins.

You pour water on them. They fucking have to eat after midnight. Everybody goes fucking nuts. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's the thing that I can't understand. Like, that woman that ran up to him and that thing, that woman is Donald Trump. She said to him, she said he said before he says it. It's, I don't know how to deal with it.

It's very frustrating. I've said it before. It's anti-Christ's behavior. I'm telling you, like people say cult. I say antichrist. The way he is able to have a hold on people. I'll tell you. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.

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Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. Billy D. Williams. You know who that is? Name me five Billy D. Williams movies, go. Don't do that to me. What? name me five Billy D. Williams movies.

Mahogany. Okay. You're on a good track. Jackson Five, the American Dream. Okay. That's two. Let's go. Very Gordon. Was he in Star Wars? Yes. Wow.

He was actually in three of them. So that counts. That's five. No. You got to name the movies. Fine, that's three. I said Star Wars. No, I need the names of the movies he was in. Oh, no, no, no. I can't.

He's in that one. That counts. Returning the Jedi, too? Actually, actually, actually, no. Well, yeah, no, he was in three of them. He was in, whatever, I said, The Jedi, okay. He was in, he was in, so that counts.

So how many movies is that now? That's three. That's more than I thought. That's three. And so you, you're, your, you're so close I'm telling you're so close you're too close to give up now

because you're you're fucking leaving out the big one the biggest one that he was in what is it? Tell me No, it was another movie with Diana Ross you know this movie you've seen this movie He's not in the whiz nigger

It's about to get on my nerves It's another movie with Diana Ross in it. You know this movie. You've seen this. Everyone knows this movie. It's Diana Ross's most famous movie that she's done. Oh, a lady sings the blues. Okay, thank you very much.

And I didn't look it up. Right. Give me one more, give me one more movie with goddamn Billy D. Williams in it. I know you can. You can tell this first. I just can't. Li! You can name me another movie with Billy D. Williams in it.

It's a miracle I got to four. And that was with assistance. It's actually pretty, it's actually pretty impressive, by the person. So, I mean, he was in, so number one, he was in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. So if I give you credit for those. So he's in Empire Strikes Back, Returned to the Jedi, and he was in the Rise of Skywalker. So that's three movies that he was in.

The fact that I even knew he was in Star Wars, without ever seeing a Star Wars movie, it's impressive. Let me see some other movies that you might have missed. You ever see The Ladies Man? No. He was in that. He was in the original Batman. Oh.

Bingo Long. You ever see that movie? Traveling All-Sars, baseball team movie. It's a bunch of movies. Some of these I'm not being honest with you. I've never fucking heard of some of these muffles. So I feel even more vindicated. But, you know, it's fucking Billy D. Wood.

She's the greatest-looking guy. Of course. a motherfucker TV. He says that actors should be allowed to perform in Blackface. He was on Bill Mars. I bet Bill Maher

got a kick out of this. He was on Bill Maher's podcast Club Random, and he talked about it a little bit because Lawrence Olivier was in Blackface for Othello back in the day. I bet Bill loved this one. I wrote the audio. Blackface?

Why not? because you should do it that's maybe that's your point of view if you're an actor you should do anything you want to do that's a great point of view but the theater would be bombed

I mean Muley and I used to talk about this all the time Muley was the one of you was the first person that I worked with in those years who said to me if whatever as an actor you should be able to do whatever you think you can do you should be able to do it

to me, Rach. Give it to me, give it to me. I'm frustrated with black people on this podcast today. No, like, I'm frustrated with black people. And we haven't even even gotten to our conversation with Francesca unconscious.

I just, I have no more patience with black people right now on this podcast. I, and the fact he said it and Bill Maher had to be like, well, obviously blackface. And he's like, no and even if he tries to make it's like the thing speaks for itself

I don't even really to get into it even if he tries to make the whole argument of you to separate the art from the person we know the historical context with blackface we know that's a no-no we know you can get black people to play black actors and the fact that the fact that Billy D. Williams

just doesn't see an issue with this I'm just disappointed of black people today. Man, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm so disappointed with black people. Why do we make so many excuses for white people? Why are we like this?

Why do we make things okay? I just... Go ahead. To wipe my nose with my sleeves. I should have done it. This is new. No. have to fuck me. You wiped

your nose on your sleeve? Yeah, I shouldn't have done that. It's spring. My nose is running. It's like I shouldn't Yeah, so was mine. And yeah, I shouldn't. Let me see it. No, it's not, you can't even see it. It's nothing on there. But like, I know it's there. So now I have

to go, like, wash this. You're disgusted with yourself. You're just I'm very upset. I'm very upset. Um, this thing's old as piss. I mean, what you want me to say? Like, this nigga's fucking old as shit. you know, there's a,

there's like a sweet spot of good opinions. And then you're past. I think you have, your sweet spot of good opinions is from 26 to 43. So you're about to be out? I'm about to be out of it. Some might say I already am. sweet spot of good opinions.

26 to 43. You're still, you're young. And then after 43, you start getting sick of hubbub. Wow, fuck it. Who cares? Just do it. Like, you don't mean, you don't have a lot.

Okay, let's move it up a little bit. Thank you. Like, I'd say what, 27, what I say? I said 27, 26. Is that 26? 26 because anything before Then you're too young you all understand shit

But I would say from about 26 to Really it's 45 It can't be any older than 45 But let me tell you why Because around at that age You start you have a mortgage now And you start thinking about different stuff And people start getting on your nerves

You know how many people I know that are really smart that all they do is like shout at clouds they're super mad about social media they're super mad about young people they're super I get like that Billy D. Williams has gotten to the point I bet you 30 years ago even 30 was he's 87

even 30 30 but 35 for sure he wasn't trying to see nobody in the motherfucking black face now he's like fuck it like I'm almost in the upper room if they want to fucking do it do it man where is the motherfucker Code 45. I just don't think that's what it is. I personally

think, I personally, I personally think this is another reason why the president thing is kind of, you want, the president makes pragmatic decisions, you've got to be 35 for it, right? Because you got to be able to make pragmatic decisions that are not, they're not based on idealism. The president can't be an idealist.

People can't be idealist. It's like, I don't know. I think there's some people that are cool, but mostly once you lost your spark, I want to turn the lights out on you. I don't give him fuck with these. This thing is old as shit.

He's not thinking about what we got to go through anymore. He's thinking about being out of here, man. You know, talking to Bill Ma. Bill Maher actually held it down. Very, very, very surprising. Very surprising me. Not with that take. I'm not.

Not with the black face. Really? He said a nigga on the air one time. He said he's a field nigger on. after that I was like, nah, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill. Will Bill drop that one? Would Bill drop that one?

Bill said, well, what was the context? Not that it matters, but what was the context? To Nebraska more. You're welcome. We'd love to have you work in the fields with us. Work in the field. That's part of that.

Senate. I'm a house niggins. No, it's. And we was like, wait a minute. Because we fuck with Bill. And we was like, we were like, whoa, Bill. Field nigger? Come on, Bill.

Don't hit us with the field nigger situation. To Nebraska more. That's not a lot. You're welcome. That's not a lot. But anyhow, I don't know. Look, I think we can go into. I'm a house nigger.

History of blackface and the whole thing. We don't be too. Julie D. Williams was born in 1937. If he ain't learned why black face is fucked now, I just don't think he has the bandwidth to care. I just think he comes from a time

where there's a they revere white people in a different way. That's how I'm more so looking. You think it's that deep? I don't think it's, I don't even think that's deep. I don't think it's that. I don't think it's

I think it's like, ah, you know, they make excuses for them. That's what I think comes with his old age. Not like, ah, who cares? I don't. That's, anyways. Magic Johnson just, Madgey Johnson just tweeted about O.J.' What are you saying?

Don't upset me again. Cookie and I are praying for OJ. Simpson's children, Arnell, Aaron, Justin, Jason, and Sidney, and his grandchildren following his passing. I know this is a difficult time. that's fine there's nothing wrong with that people are getting all magic there's nothing wrong with that

he said nothing about OJ he's a you can send condolences to the family yeah and he said uh and then some people are saying don't forget about Chloe Kardashian and how she must be grieving man let's let's move forward let's move forward you did not okay

you adopted some Billy D. Williams way is here you did not need to to throw that in there. Maybe you are closer to this age. I'm definitely, everybody can hear it. Everybody can hear it. So this can hear me. So we might not be doing this podcast past 44. It'll get better. I'm telling you, I'm reading Colvin Hughes book. I talked to Camel yesterday.

Camel is going to help us get Colman Hughes on a podcast. You got to read the book. the end of race politics. You bought it? Yeah, yeah. I'm at the chapter right now where he's describing neo-racists, which I am almost certainly one. I'm still at the beginning of it. It's interesting.

He's describing, where am I at right now? Yeah, he's describing neo-racists. And he's, you know, it's actually, what am I? I'm at this fucking chapter one of the book. Yeah, not even neo-racism, anti-racism, neo-racism. Ibramax Kendi is a neo-racist. He describes a lot of other people that are neo-racist. I'm almost certainly a neo-racist.

I'm interested in talking to him. I talked to Kamel. Camel asked about you. It's like, how's Rachel doing? I'm like, well, she's great. She's got some face, Camel. Oh, my. Camel, fucking brilliant, man.

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Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, guys. We got double the black man, double the black woman on higher learning today. Because we have Francesca Ramsey and Conscious Lee joining us. They are hosts of Black History for real.

Oh, my God. We're getting real about Black history. They're joining us today on Higher Learning. How are you guys doing? Oh, we're doing great. Thanks for having us. Yeah, doing really good. Yeah, you answered for both of y'all.

How did you know that Conscious was doing? Okay. You know, you will know this Because when you've been hosting with somebody You start to be on the same wavelength You could just read each other's thoughts in that way I don't know, Francesc's going to be out there yet All right, so both of you guys have

Very, very sizable Legacy's career paths Everyone knows you Conscious Lee is always popping up on the feed into it. People talking to him. He's talking back. Francesca, I remember watching you on MTV.

I've been following your career for a very, very long time. Tell us about the pairing of you guys together and the podcast and what it means to both of you guys. All that just go first. Yeah. Hey, I think the uniqueness that me and Francesca Breen is a whole bunch of different flavor. You feel me? We know that when it comes to the Black experience, it's really, like a multiplicity. We really

multi-positioning. We got a hell of different perspectives. And I think that us two uniquely being a co-host, we're able to, I feel like, talk to different socioeconomic backgrounds, you feel, me? And we're able to, I feel like, express ourselves in different vernaculars even. You know what I mean? That's all still very

black. And I think that it really gives us a real nice balance, you feel me? And in the end that, you know, we love to say, blackness is not a monolith. And it's just, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's able to illustrate that. Yeah, I have to co-assign conscious in that respect. We have such a great time talking to each other. And it's been really incredible seeing how many similar experiences that we've had. But at the same time, we can see things differently and speak to our unique perspectives as black folks and the way that history is impacting the place that we're at today. And I think that that's really important to conscious of this point, blackness is not a monolith. And we need to see as many different representations. as possible. And that's exactly what our show is doing.

Van, you see how they respect that they're different from each other and they don't go at each other like we do. Like we do. We bring a different perspective. We can learn from you guys. I love this. No, you know what? I'm going to push back and say that we need a show with two black people that don't always agree too. I mean, we need every single one of those versions. We do. We do. And to piggyback on what Van was saying, How did you two come together to form black history for real? So we actually tested for this show. Wondry came to us.

They had put together this show. And Wondry has so many incredible podcasts. We've got an amazing producing team that's doing all the sound design and really building the world of every episode. And so I think I tested with three other people. And when Conteus and I got on the Zoom together, we were both like, oh my God, do you see all the balloons? This happens to us all the time.

Okay, I don't know where those balloons came from, but the balloons came up on the Zoom. As soon as Conteis and I were on the Zoom together to test, I mean, it was just instantaneous. I was familiar with Conscious's work via TikTok, but we had never met before. And it was genuinely like catching up with an old friend. and the ability for us to go from the scripted segments to just talking to each other and kind of roasting each other and getting to learn about each other

was so fun and so natural. I DM'd him immediately after it. I was like, we have to get this job. Like, I really want us to work together. We obviously going to be the one. Like, I think of what it was, we tested with two other different people. You know what I'm saying?

I tested with two other black women. Yeah, so it's true. She tested with two black men. And when we got together, it was just like, it was, it was, it was just real smooth. I think what it is is that Sagittarius fire energy came through. And we already was familiar with each other's work. And it wasn't like, man, trying to get the feel for who, I'm saying, who, who each other was. Because I've consumed a lot of her content, you feel me.

It's going all the way back to the MTV day. So it was like, I know who this is right here. And we was able to, I feel like I was able to be very loose. You know what I'm saying? And we was able to bounce off each other. And it was just, you know, it was just natural. Wait, you're both, Sagittarius? We are both sadge.

Oh, wow. Hold on. So, conscience, you just brought up astrology and stuff. You're a Seamoss, nigger? Is that what it's called? I tried to, like, I am a, I'm an ADHD nigger, you know what I'm saying? So being an ADHD nigger, I just like jump around a lot, you know what I'm saying? I've tried to get on to see my sister than the other, but with the ADHD being

forgetful and not having, you know what I'm saying, a structure and organization being my best friend. I don't even try to, I ain't even gonna fake the funk with you. Shout out to the C-Marsh niggas out there, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I am. I am nice. So when he hits you in the morning, Francesca, to get for the podcast, he says Grand Rising Queen and all of that stuff. No, no, no, no.

Thank goodness. Thank goodness there's no grand rising in my inbox. I will say the ADHD comes through when we're recording. We will go off on tangents on stuff that is not going to be included. in the pod at all. The thing that's been really fun is we're doing a lot of acting in the show because it is storytelling.

And some of the voices that conscious be doing, I'm like, Sir, we're not going to use any of that. He's like, just doing all these weird voices. But it's been really fun to embody all the different characters. And we have a really good time with that. Yeah, I'll be trying to get in my bag.

You know what I'm saying? Trying to get in my bag, you know? Tell us about the form. of the show? What are people expecting? What do people tune in for? Tell us about how the show goes. What exactly is the show? Yeah. So like I mentioned, it's a storytelling show combined with conversation, which is a little bit different than anything that I've heard in the history space. So each episode, we are talking about a different black history figure. And then Conscious and I are actually embodying some of the characters as we tell their story and as it unfolds across the show. And as I mentioned earlier, the sound design is incredible. If we're talking about getting out of a car, you're hearing the car pull up and the door open and the birds and the trees and all of this stuff that's really transporting you to that time. And then between the storytelling segments, Conscious and I just get to talk and reflect on where we are in the story and the things that we've learned thus far. Yeah.

And the answer to that uniqueness is when we start talking about the historical figures, we're doing it. a very transparent in your face way that's not lost in the sauce in like romanticization or sanitization you know what I'm saying so in instance when we talked about you know the women of the Black Panther party we really grappled with you feel me the the the alleged you know what I'm saying informants we're saying we grapple with the patriarchy and the sexism you know I'm saying we talk about you feel me like we really go there you feel me when we talked about WB the boys I don't hold back on how I feel about the way the things that he's doing and saying in terms of being colorist or being fatphobic or, you know what I'm saying?

Like the way he's trying to pick respectability politics against different niggas, you know I'm saying? Like we're really going all the way there. And it's not in a very palatable, consumable way. And that's why we call it black history for real, because it's not in a way that is going to be prioritizing how people feel comfortable in thinking about our figures. We talk about Langston Hughes being, you know what I'm saying, in the closet. We talk about County Cullen and this church trauma and being, you know what I'm saying?

heart on Renaissance and being a closeted man that marries doubley-de-bosses daughter and like we get into it. You know what I'm saying? And that's I think that what makes the show a little bit different from the other history shows as well. And then we pull those moments back to today so that you're actually connecting making the link between, okay, these things happen at another time. But they're actually impacting the way we move through the world as black people, the way we understand our blackness, the way people understand and respect us to this very day. I think that's what stood out to me so much and was so captivating about what it is that you do because when you were having the conversations and like you were talking to W.E. DeBoy,

which, what's funny, you said his full name. At one point, I was like, oh, that's what it is. So it's like, I'm getting, I'm getting at this, an actual lesson. But then at the same time, I love how you talk about issues like beefs that these political figures that we know about in a general way have with one another and how deep it is. I think what got to me too, and I found this embarrassing, and I'm wondering if you guys think this, you're talking about W.E. De Bois and you're talking about Marcus Garvey. You're talking about T'I. De Bois.

Du Bois. Du Bois. Du Bois. Whatever. You're talking about W.E. De Bois. Whatever. W.E. the baby. North Carolina's finest. Big side, baby. That's me bringing it to today. That's how we talked about him today. Okay. We call it W. He would shorten it. He totally was. I thank you. Thank you for that. I find it embarrassing that the same issues that they had with colorism as you brought up, light scam versus dark skin was a thing the way that they would critique each other. And then we still have these issues today.

Can you speak a little bit to that and how like you have a, was it church hurts? I think is what the topic you were talking about. And in addition to the arranged marriage, it's also the homophobia that we see. still deal with today. Yeah. Does any of that surprise, did it surprise you as you were uncovering this, this history and then having to link it to today? Can you talk a little bit about bringing those two together?

And for me, I thought it was embarrassing. Thank you for noticing that. I, that's something that Conscious and I marvel at every single episode is that it's unfortunate that despite the amount of progress that we've made, we still have so far to go. And, you know, for me, again, the reason that I think Conscious and I hosting the show so powerful is the way we talk about respectability politics in these stories, this idea of you, if you talk a certain way, or you're from this area, or this is your lineage, you're better than somebody else. Conscious and I come from two very different worlds. And there are people who are going

to try and pigeonhole us and put us in boxes. And that was the exact same thing that was happening with W.E.B. DeV. DeV. DeV. and Marcus Garvey and Booker T. Washington. And so it's so important to unpack that when you decide that you are a more palatable black person because you talk a certain way or you're going to look down on a black person who has grills in their mouth or says niga or whatever it might be. You're just playing into that same white supremacist society that has always been trying to pit black people against each other. You're not doing anything new. This has always been happening. And it's important to acknowledge that in order for us to move past it and work towards liberation for all of us. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I'm making sure. The thing I like about it is, niggas and white folks alike really be held captive on what's going on right now. I think it's very smooth to remind people like, hey, don't get lost in the sauce of what's going on right now. I think you're so unique because we're dealing with homophobia or dealing with, you know what I'm saying, closeted people are dealing with it's been going on. So if you can acknowledge the history that it's been going on, I think that it gives it a little bit more humanization, a little bit more familiarity and not make it like we talk about. about unicorns and shit coming out the sky coming out the ground because, man, there's some stuff we're doing right now. It's like, oh, hold on, big guy. Here, exhibit A, exhibit B.

Do you guys feel the need, since you're talking about things that are historical, do you guys feel the need to contextualize history? And what I mean by that is basically we do, we're living in the now. and we tend to use the lens as far as what we've learned, what we've explored, how we approach our daily lives today, our contemporary lives today, on people that live 100, 200 X amount of years ago. And whenever you're talking about history,

I feel like it's important to parse through the yin and the yang right and the wrong of stuff, but also to be understanding that, you know, the times are different. But that can also be dangerous giving people too much leeway for bad behavior. When you're dealing in a show that deals in history, how do you do that calculus? I mean, for me, it's about being very transparent on the time that's going on and really trying to recognize what were the social norms then.

For me personally, when we did our Mansa Musa series that's going to be coming out, there were times that I'm going through the script or even having conversation that I'm really having to check myself and really think about the time that Mansa Musa is living in and recognize it's not through the Western paradigm. It's not Christian. It's not, you know what I'm saying? So she, like, you know,

because I'm always thinking about colonialism and power and domination. So me having to grapple with the way in which, you know what I'm saying, Massimusa is moving around and building empire. It's something that I feel like, you know, us as the host and the viewers, I feel like it's forced to grapple with really throughout all the beefs, You know what I'm saying? Through all like the, like I feel like the explorations. But I think the contextualization of is really being able to acknowledge the time and date.

And then the way that we play up the scenes in terms of remind the individuals with a gut check almost like what's going on around there. That way you don't try to have your very privileged, you feel of me, modern day. We ain't the ancestors, which is another thing that pissed me off. But I said that for another rant. Yeah, I mean, I think something like Comptus and I talk about a lot is that multiple. things can be true at one time. That something might have been the norm of the day. And we can also acknowledge what was wrong with the thing. We can also acknowledge why some people fell victim to certain trains of thought, depending on the time period that they were in. We talked about that

talented tenth theory, this idea that one person has to rise above and has to kind of be okay with certain aspects of racism and oppression. I don't agree with that, but I can understand where that thing came from. I can understand that under certain constraints, your mind is going to say, I got to figure a way to get out of this. And so to your question, I think that we always try to add that balance to go, this is the reality, but then also let zoom out and think about how we would view this today, while also giving grace to the fact that we can't go back and change how history unfolded, but all we can hope to do is learn from it so that we can all be better as we move forward.

And I love that that's the purpose and the goal of the podcast, but when you're uncovering what these historical figures thought and what held them back and we're still doing that today, does it make you feel discouraged? Like, we're still kind of, we're still the same things. Yeah. Oh, all the time. All of the time.

I find myself repeating myself and getting fresh. You know, when we did the series on the women of the Black Panther Party and thinking about how these women often had to tone police themselves because they were being told that they sounded, you know, too radical or that they were being too emotional. And I'm thinking, I have had that situation in the workplace. I have had that situation online. I've had that situation with my family members. It's so frustrating that we're still here. And I think while I don't have the solution to it, I do. think there's power and giving voice to that so that when I hear those stories, I realize, like, oh, my experience is valid. Because a lot of times when those things happen, you have this moment of like, you know, it's like you're in the office. You want to look at the imaginary camera and be like, do you see what the hell is happening? I feel like I'm losing my mind. And so knowing that that has been other folks reality, again, it's not a good feeling, but it is a complex feeling of, okay, I feel seen.

My experience is real. And my hope is that other people listening to the show feel that way as well. So black history happened today just before we jumped on. Oh, OJ. OJ Simpson died. Yeah.

Depending on who you are, it's either a really sad moment in black history or for some people, I don't tend to celebrate death. We'll talk about this later. Everybody always gets on me about this, a happy moment. before we let you guys get out of here

we can't can't not ask you about how you guys feel about the death of the juice whoever wants to go first can't I mean I mean I say I'm going to answer your question

and then it's something else I want to tell you because I don't want to be like man I told myself whenever I meet this nigger man I'm going to have to tell him man that I pre listen how I feel about the juice being real with you being a millennial

you know what I'm saying you know if the glove don't fit we must to quit OJ Othew what's name Othal was his name Oranthal Orinthal James I really ain't got that much feelings

about it being real with you like I'm saying A couple of memes I've chuckled at you know what I'm saying I know we got people that like love them and miss them you know I'm saying I think that he

I don't know I'm gonna leave that alone you feel me But Vane listen though the time that we're in right now, right? And the way that our brother Yeh going to hit the archive, you feel me? I just want to thank you

the way that you was taxable that the first time Ye did what he did, how he did it. I think that for me, being somebody that also was in love with Yeh, it made me feel like I wasn't crazy. You see what I'm saying? And the way that you did it, you did it

in a way that showed a lot of empathy and that you gave them a lot of grace, but you still were very, as a matter of fact, tactful, you know what I'm saying? And I just want to just, like, it's something that always, always revisit, you feel me, not even when I'm thinking about, yay, but other things in terms of what it means to hold people accountable and what it means to do it with, like, love, you feel me? And I feel like just black men, the black man, I think that there's times that we really have to go back and revisit that model of what it looked like for us as black men to really

be like, nah, nigger, they ain't what it is. And here's why they hurt my feelings, bro. So thank you for you. for that. You know what I'm saying? I appreciate you, brother. Appreciate that love. Appreciate that love, man. That's great. Well, and thank you. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I was going to say thank you for vamping so I could get my thoughts together about OJ's passing. I'm also the type that doesn't like to celebrate someone dying, especially because, you know, he has kids and family that of, of course, are going to be mourning his

passing. But at the same time, he was a complicated person who I believe did that shit. and should have faced consequences for murdering two people and robbing them of their family. And I know today is probably a hard day for them as well, for those family members, knowing that they never really got to have justice and that this man was parading on Twitter and making memes and jokes and acting a fool while their family's legacies have been destroyed by him. So I'm not shedding any tears over him. I will enjoy the memes for sure. But that's about it on my end.

I just have one last question. Since you guys cover Black history for real, do you think that maybe in the future you will cover Emmanuel Acho and uncomfortable conversations with a black man? I'm joking, Francesca, before you answer this question, serious. I was like, and my brain was like,

girl, figure this out. I'm joking. Don't answer it. Yeah, man. I feel like, I feel like, man, and a black man trying to be in this space, you feel me. There's certain people that, you know, sometimes you got to have that patience with,

and then sometimes you got to maybe think about, like, man, you really, even, is you really broke the time? And, you know, I feel like Emmanuel Acho is one of the people that we unfortunately have to have that do-se-do, you know what I'm saying, negotiation with. Because at this point, it's like, I think you might be dedicated to ignorance. It's like somebody said on Twitter,

I think folks is dedicated to being the white men whisper. Like he wanted to be the whisperer to white folks. Look, I loved y'all, y'all collected him when he was on your show, and I loved every single minute of it. And, you know, my honest answer is, my honest answer is we need thought leaders like you to do that. And what I like about our show is we're like, we're not touching today's news. Everybody could talk about the viral shit or who said whatever dumb thing. we are breaking out of the noise and going back through history and having conversations that bring it back to today.

But we are confident that folks like y'all can collect him and other shows can drag him all over Twitter. And thankfully then we don't have to do that work. Let me get too crazy. I bust his ass on TikTok video. Get too crazy. I bust his ass on TikTok. Constantly.

You can get it. Tell them where, when, and how they can support what you guys are doing over on. Wondry. Black History for Real is available wherever you get your favorite podcast. It's also available on the Wondry Plus app. If you are a member of Wondry Plus, and the show comes out every Monday.

Yeah, and if you're a member of Wondry Plus, you get a little early. Oh, oh, you can get in there sneak peek. Yeah, early if you're on Wondry Plus. Early and ad free. Oh, yeah, the app free. You guys got to get the ad money. You guys, Francesca,

conscious, thank you for joining us today on Higher Learning. looking forward to to you guys popping and changing the landscape and how we look at Black History. We really appreciate you guys for joining us. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. All right, look, we got to get out of here. Is there anything else you want to hit before we go?

Do you want to talk a little bit more about the abortion ban in Arizona? No, I don't. It's just, I don't. And I do want to say, you know, for the people who may be pro this, and say, oh, well, there's still an exception if the woman's life is in danger? Think about that for a second. Doctors can be prosecuted under this new ban. So that's up to debate of whether or not that person's

life was really in danger. So if a doctor has to make a decision quickly, they're going to be afraid on what they can do for fear that they can be criminally prosecuted. It's just, so even though that's carved out, it's bad. It's bad all around. People have to question what they do. these doctors, these professionals have to question whether or not to save somebody's life for a fear of their own. Or saving their own. It's, I don't want to talk. It's, it's, I mean, should we acknowledge that Trump said that he doesn't believe in a federal ban? He believes the state's the bad, which is still problematic, guys.

That's not, it's not a win for him to say that. Look at what the states are doing, having the power. Like, I don't, it. I just, I mean, some of the states, the, the, the attorney to get, look, Donald Trump's saying that he wouldn't sign a national ban, just lets me know that it's bad politics for the Republicans. Even Kerry Lake, this law predates Arizona statehood, by the way. It's a very old law.

Even Kerry Lake, who at one point said that she loved the law, has now said that has reversed course on it. They know it's bad politics. We'll see how that affects things in Arizona. Cornell West has a new running mate, and this is a big deal for us. because we had it on the podcast. Because we had her on the podcast. My friend, Dr. Molina Abdullah,

BLM grassroots here in Los Angeles, Cal State, L.A. professor is on the ticket with Cornell OS as his VP. They announced this in an interview Wednesday on the Tavis Smiley Show. Muslim black women, board of directors, Black Lives Matter grassroots. I love Dr. Molina Abdullah.

I always have loved her since I've met her and known her. She is a fantastic, fantastic ally worker and voice in our community. And I am looking forward to having her on the podcast to talk about the fact that she has joined the ticket

and really to have some real conversations. conversations about what we feel like the ticket means. I agree. And how, because they're not going to win the presidency. So what are the goals of the West Abdullah ticket? I can't wait to have Dr. O'Dula on here. Agreed.

It's a tremendous thing to be on a ticket, a national presidential ticket. So congratulations to her. We are out of here. Take the thing caps off. We do not stop learning. I am Van Lathin Jr. Now I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye guys.